April 11, 2025 • 29 mins
Federal funding for crime victim services is evaporating at an alarming rate. Since 2017, the Victims of Crime Act (VOCA) fund has plummeted by a staggering 83%, leaving millions of vulnerable survivors without critical support. The human cost is devastating.
We sit down with Kirstin Flores and Rebekah Snyder Cox, who lead victim services divisions in Arizona and Michigan, to understand what's at stake. Their stories from the frontlines reveal how these funding cuts threaten the very foundation of our justice system. When a sexual assault victim living in a shelter can't access a phone or transportation to participate in their case, justice remains out of reach. When domestic violence survivors have nowhere to turn because shelters can't keep their doors open, lives hang in the balance.
The conversation explores how victim advocates serve as the unsung heroes of our criminal justice system, providing crucial emotional support, safety planning, and practical assistance at every stage of a case. Without them, cases collapse, victims remain traumatized, and offenders escape accountability. As Rebekah poignantly shares, "I just called a sexual assault victim who reported her crime in 2007. The offender fled, and the case went cold. Now I'm calling her again saying 'We mean it this time.' Without the help of federal partnerships, we couldn't even locate these fugitives."
The episode also examines how post-conviction issues uniquely traumatize victims. When offenders unexpectedly receive parole or pardons without proper notification to victims, it shatters trust in the system. As one victim advocate described the impact: "It's indescribable. It takes them right back to the crime and brings everything back, but now 30 years later without their support system."
What can we do to ensure justice for crime victims? Start by understanding that victim services aren't optional—they're essential infrastructure that makes our entire legal system function. Contact your representatives about supporting VOCA funding and connect with local victim service organizations in your community to see how you can help fill the growing gaps.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (00:05):
H ello and welcome back to
Pantsuits and Lawsuits, the onlypodcast on air where you get to
hear from two state attorneysgeneral about the cases shaping
our nation's legal landscape inreal time.
Attorney General Kris May (00:18):
Every day, the morning headlines
announce some new crisis.
It's hard to stay on top ofthings, especially when it's all
mired in precise legal languagethat we both went to law school
for three years to learn how tounderstand.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (00:32):
And that's why we're here as your
trusty neighborhood AGs, tobreak it all down and explain
what impact the decisions beingmade in DC could and certainly
will have on your daily life.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (00:51):
So, Dana, April 6th begins National
Crime Victims Week.
So for today's episode, we'rebringing on Kirstin Flores, who
is the executive director of theArizona Attorney General's
Office of Victim Services, aswell as Rebekah Snyder Cox, who
manages the Michigan Departmentof Attorney General's Victims'
Rights Victim Services Division,and they're going to help us
(01:16):
talk about the importance offederal funding and resources
when it comes to supportingcrime victims in the wake of
tragedy.
Attorney General Dana Ness (01:24):
Well , before we start talking to
them, let's get a little bit ofbackground on this situation.
Now, during the first Trumpterm, they rolled back billions
of dollars in funding for theVictims of Crime Act and the
Violence Against Women Actprograms and, as just one of
(01:46):
many examples, in 2019, theDepartment of Housing and Urban
Development abruptly pulled$13.5 million in grant funding
to provide victims of sex andhuman trafficking with support
of housing services likeemergency shelter, child care,
trauma therapy.
Some organizations actually hadalready sent their applications
(02:08):
in by the time of theannouncement, and all that time
and effort was just wasted andit left so many people in
incredibly dangerous situations,all because Trump could not
find it in his heart or walletto support the most vulnerable
people in our communities.
And, in fact, I would go so faras to say that it seems as
(02:29):
though Donald Trump has justbeen openly contemptuous of
crime victims.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (02:34):
I'd agree, and now that Trump is
back in office, they aredefinitely back to their old
tricks.
On February 6, the office onviolence against women halted
all 2025 funding opportunitiesreally unbelievable.
For context, the OVW (office ofviolence against women)
(02:57):
allocated more than 684 milliondollars in grants for the 2024
fiscal year.
Grants previously listedincluded ones aimed at ending
abuse against vulnerable adults,providing housing for victims
of domestic violence and helpinglocal law enforcement stop
(03:18):
cyber crimes.
As a result of our OMB lawsuit,the Trump administration was
ordered to unfreeze these funds.
They had frozen those funds,which was crazy, of course, but
the previously posted grantopportunities were tak en
offline and the OVW webite isstill directing visitors not to
(03:42):
finalize any applicationsMeanwhile, the shelters doing
important work on the ground inArizona and Michigan and,
frankly, all across the country,don't know if they'll be able
to keep their lights on pastnext fall.
Attorney General Dana Ness (04:00):
Yeah , it's incredibly tragic.
And you know, look, if ourlegal system isn't helping
victims of crime, honestlywhat's the point?
You know we're losing sight ofthe fact that, first and
foremost, our job is to deliverjustice to those that have been
wronged.
And that philosophy dates, youknow, back to Reagan's task
(04:21):
force on the victims of crime.
You know that report that theyput out back in 1982 had so many
great recommendations likeestablishing confidential victim
counseling, providingprotection against victim and
witness intimidation,prioritizing the needs of
victims when prosecuting theirabusers and, you know, real
(04:42):
collaboration across so manydifferent agencies.
Attorney General Kris Maye (04:47):
Yeah , that was an incredibly
important report and here is adirect quote from that report:
"W e also found that there is noquick remedy to the innocent
victim's plight.
Only the sustained efforts offederal, state and local
governments can restore balanceto the criminal justice system.
(05:08):
" They passed the Victims ofCrime Act, also known as VOCA,
and associated funding streamstwo years after that report was
issued.
A pot of money not funded bytaxpayer dollars but through the
fines, settlements, bonds andother monetary penalties
(05:30):
associated with federal criminalprosecutions.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (05:34):
And last year marked the 40th
anniversary of VOCA, but thedwindling Crime Victims Fund is
really circling the drain and,according to the DOJ, the
balance dropped by about 83percent, from about 13 billion
in 2017 to just over 2 billionby the end of 2024.
(05:56):
So really for the last decade,responsibility has been shifting
towards the states to pick upthe federal government slack.
More cuts at this moment intime are so ill-advised, to say
the very least.
Attorney General Kris Maye (06:11):
Yeah , that's for sure, and, Dana,
I'm sure you hear the same thing, but out here, voca is so
incredibly important and thelast thing we need are these
additional cuts.
These resources supportthousands of victim assistance
programs throughout the UnitedStates, serving an average of
(06:31):
3.7 million victims of crime peryear.
So they fund things like childadvocacy centers, domestic
violence agencies, rape crisiscenters, and, as the top law
enforcement officers in ourrespective states, we have an
obligation to protect publicsafety.
(06:52):
So recent decisions from thefederal government to roll back
support for these programs makeour jobs harder in the states
and have the potential, frankly,to make communities less safe.
Attorney General Dana Ness (07:08):
It's so tragic and so upsetting, and
especially from the perspectiveof the jobs that we do each and
every day to try to protectvictims of crime.
This is so fundamentally flawedand incredibly unhelpful.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (07:34):
All right.
Well, it is so great to haveboth Kirstin Flores from the
Arizona Attorney General'soffice with us and Rebekah
Snyder Cox from Michigan, andthanks for joining us, both of
you.
Looking forward to thisconversation.
Kirstin Flores (07:52):
Thank you for having us.
Rebekah Snyder Cox (07:53):
Thank you guys.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (07:55):
One of the things that we were
talking about before you guyscame on is you know the
importance of VOCA funding forcrime victims and how that is
impacting your ability as peoplewho directly work with victims
each and every day.
It is your job, but what doesit mean when you are either
(08:17):
having delays in thedistribution of grant funding or
when grant funding isterminated altogether?
Kirstin Flores (08:24):
The uncertainty of not knowing whether or not
we're going to have grantfunding really can affect the
staff and the morale of theoffice, and that could trickle
down to the services that areprovided.
The funding by VOCA is just sovital in the work that we do.
(08:45):
I would say that in every caseof ours whether it's our
advocates working on ourinvestigations, our trial cases,
our appellate stage, when weoffer resources to a victim,
whether it be to a free victim'srights attorney, to the
victim's compensation program orto community-based
organizations who can help withrebuilding lives after domestic
(09:07):
violence abuse, are allresources paid for by VOCA.
And this is inclusive of theservices that we provide in the
Attorney General's Office andensuring those rights that the
victims are notified, thatthey're making sure they're
supported emotionally andfeeling safe during court, even
(09:28):
sometimes having a facility dogavailable during forensic
interview are all funded withthose federal funds.
So it really is vital and notknowing puts us in a really
difficult position
Rebekah Snyder Cox (09:37):
To echo some of that as well, we have a case
right now that's a cold casesexual assault.
The victim is in towards theupper peninsula in Michigan, so
from Lansing it's between a fourand five hour drive, not
considering the weather.
She is also unhomed, and soright now we have been
partnering and working with theshelter that she's staying with.
(10:02):
That has connected her withlocal resources that are VOCA
funded.
Her own shelter is funded bythese federal dollars, so it is
the way that we're able to talkwith her all the time.
She doesn't have a phone, shedoesn't have access to email or
the internet without theservices that she's being
provided right now in hercommunity.
We have partnered with localvictim advocates from a
(10:24):
community-based sexual assaultagency that is making sure that
when we hang up the phone withher that she's using through the
shelter services that she hassomeone to debrief with and talk
with.
And again, when the money is notgetting to them, when they're
having issues keeping the lightson or paying their staff, those
support groups aren't happening, the counseling one-on-one
(10:46):
services that are offered aren'thappening, and so it's really
vital for us as we work withvictims around the state.
Again, that might be 10 hoursaway from where our offices are
located and we can't make it upthere for every single
conversation that we're having.
We typically go up for courtevents right, and so to be able
to give them services wherethey're at is so important.
(11:07):
To be able to ensure thatthey're coming back to court and
they can testify.
This victim in particular isone of our operations survivor
justice ones.
So again we're re-engaging herafter 10 plus years, and from
when we called her to when wegot the defendant back in the
state, it was a five month span,and without those local
services we would have lostcontact with her and maybe lost
(11:32):
where she was because she wasunhomed.
So they're incredibly importantto our work every day.
Attorney General Kris Maye (11:38):
Yeah , that's an amazing story, and I
mean Arizona.
We were actually one of thefirst, if not the first state to
adopt a comprehensive victimsbill of rights.
Can you speak to that as well?
Like, what are some of thethings we're doing that would be
deeply harmed by additionalcuts?
Kirstin Flores (11:58):
Arizona has really just made a big effort
trying to make sure that all ofour victim advocates are
educated on victims' rights atevery stage of the process.
What can get confusing thatwe've identified is the
post-conviction stage.
Victims think it's over.
Advocates may not setexpectations for that next phase
of the case and there is a lotof post-conviction rights and
(12:20):
activity from probation, prison,parole.
All of those actually areservices that are provided by
VOCA funds as well in Arizonaand a lot of times victims can
feel re-victimized at manystages of the process and if we
have educated advocates who aresetting expectations and
providing services, it'll justmake things so much easier for
(12:42):
the victims and can addresstheir healing throughout that
process and make them feel likethey have a voice.
Attorney General Dana Ness (12:50):
Glad you mentioned that in terms of
the post-conviction process,because we're seeing a lot of
issues right now on severalfronts.
Firstly, I think people arebeing paroled earlier and
without just cause or reasonthan we've ever seen before in
our state.
But in addition to that, we'vehad many people who had to be
(13:12):
resentenced on first degreemurder cases because you had
juvenile lifers who had to beresentenced, and that was a lot
of people in our state.
So you have people who thoughtthat their family member's
murderer was going to be inprison for the rest of their
life and now you know we have togo experience that hearing
again.
And then, in addition to that,what we're seeing on the federal
(13:34):
front is just people who arebeing pardoned or having their
sentences commuted and I wouldsay this is true of both
Democratic and Republicanpresidents.
Seemingly, you know, withoutgoing through the regular
process that's normally gonethrough, and I think, at times
without even talking to thevictims of these crimes or their
family members.
(13:55):
And I mean, what kind of impactdoes that have on a person?
When you think the case is over, you think you know what their
sentence is and you either areat peace with it or maybe you
were part of that process, right?
Maybe this was a plea that wasoffered in some cases and you're
like, okay, I'm okay with thisbecause I know that this
(14:15):
individual is at least going toget a specific amount of time in
prison and I can mentallyprepare myself for that.
And then all of a sudden, oh myGod, they're out and you didn't
even know about it.
Can you talk a little bit, eachof you, about what kind of
impact that has on a crimevictim or crime victim's family,
and their trust and respect forthe justice system?
Rebekah Snyder Cox (14:37):
So we have been doing a lot as well in this
space.
I've worked on some of thejuvenile lifer cases with those
families.
The impact it has on a victimand their family you can't even
really adequately explain.
We had a case where theirfather was a corrections officer
and was murdered by an inmatethat he was transporting.
(15:07):
And having to make that phonecall again and ask them to come
back, not only to Michiganbecause they had moved out of
state, but to come back andspeak at another sentencing
hearing when he's likely goingto now get out and soon right,
because it's been I think at thetime it had been like 35 years
since he had been sentenced orsomething close to what his new
sentence was going to look like.
And so please come back tocourt, see him again in person,
(15:31):
make another statement and aplea to the judge to not let him
out anytime soon because of thebrutality of what he did, and
then to hear, "All right, he'llbe out in a couple of years.
Now, thanks for coming, thanksfor making that trek here from
Arizona, but we're going to lethim out.
Having to be with thosefamilies and sit there and
(15:53):
process what that looks like nowis indescribable.
It really is, and it's verysimilar to now the parole
hearings that we're getting moreand more involved in.
To the AG's point, we're seeinginmates be paroled at their
first hearing date, their firstopportunity, and victims who
(16:13):
believed that they may be keptup until that maximum sentence.
So in Michigan we are luckyenough to have the truth in
sentencing laws maximum sentence.
So in Michigan we are luckyenough to have the truth in
sentencing laws.
And so when they get sentencedallegedly, that is, you know,
every day they're going to spendof that minimum sentence, of it
in time, incarcerated.
But now they're coming to thefirst parole board hearing
(16:34):
giving these impact statements.
I just did this two weeks agowith the chief of our parole
appeals division.
We went to support a family andtheir pleas to please don't let
him out, keep him in theemotions they're crying during
this hearing and they'reappealing to this parole board
member to keep this man in.
He's making progress.
(16:55):
We're afraid of him and theparole board member essentially
told us there's not a lot we cando.
It was a two hour drive forthem one way to come make this,
you know, plea to a parole boardmember and to hear that even if
we can and I don't think we can, but even if we can keep him,
we'll call you back in sixmonths to do this all over again
, because the max we can reallyextend it as a year.
(17:15):
Like I said, it's justindescribable the emotions
associated with that and thepain because it takes them right
back to the crime and when ithappened and like the juvenile
lifer case again, it was 30years ago and now we're bringing
it all back up and asking youto come back to court, which we
thought you'd never have to do.
So it's it's incrediblydifficult.
Kirstin Flores (17:36):
I don't have much more to add to that.
Rebekah, you said thatperfectly.
But, like you said, it just canbring.
It brings everything back fromwhen they first experienced the
crime and but just 30 yearslater, it's just.
They don't have their supportsystem with them anymore.
It's just, it's just reallyjarring.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (18:12):
so um for for both of you, I'd love
for you to talk about um thekinds of partnerships that we
have at our offices with federalagencies, and how an erosion of
those relationships oradditional cutting of funding in
things like VOCA and othergrants could make it harder to
deliver justice and supportvictims
Kirstin Flores (18:37):
For us, we have a lot our cases that we
prosecute or even investigateare referred to us by federal
agencies like the FBI orHomeland Security.
The types of cases range fromhuman trafficking, we've got
some white collar fraud cases aswell, and it's important for us
that we have our advocatesdevelop relationships with the
(18:58):
advocates in those officesbecause if they have been
receiving services from thosefederal agencies and the case is
now at the attorney general'soffice, we want to make sure
that there's a warm handoff,that the advocates talk to our
advocates about maybe someissues that we may want to be
aware of, explain what's alreadyhappened in the case, so that
(19:18):
we don't have to reinvent thewheel with this victim, so they
don't have to tell us thingsagain necessarily.
e've we have some reallyeffective relationships that
we've really tried hard to buildwith those federal agencies and
recently, I think under AGMayes, we've really tried to
focus on our tribal partners aswell and make sure our staff is
(19:39):
culturally competent to workwith the victims from our tribal
communities and that we're alsoaware of specific resources
that we can provide thosevictims that they may not have
wanted to take advantage of someof the other resources that we
have in general in those cases.
So having some specificresources are really important.
(20:00):
So those partnerships are vitalto ensuring victims receive
their appropriate services andsupport.
Rebekah Snyder Cox (20:08):
Yeah, very similarly to everything you just
said, especially when it comesto human trafficking cases and
work, a lot of those arepartners with the FBI.
The AG Nessel just launched anew task force, an area that
we're trying to focus on withthe Missing and Murdered
Indigenous People for the stateof Michigan.
So we are establishing a lot ofthose partnerships with not
only the US Attorney's officesin both districts for Michigan,
(20:31):
but also with the communitypartners that are funded through
a lot of federal dollars tooffer the counseling, the
support services that areculturally honoring as well.
And, in addition to that, theOperation Survivor Justice that
I had mentioned earlier, whichis an initiative that we've
launched trying to extradite allof the sexual assault warrants
(20:56):
that are active in Michigan fordefendants who have fled the
state, and so we are partneringwith the US Marshals to find
those people and get them backin Michigan.
We meet once a week with the USMarshals to discuss how are we
going to re-engage these victims.
I just made a phone call thisweek to a victim who did
everything right.
She reported her sexual assaultin 2007.
(21:16):
They said we're going toprosecute.
They submitted the warrant.
He flees.
In 2017, someone calls heragain.
They'd have.
We found a governor's warrant.
It went cold.
We have no idea what happenedand why they didn't actually.
So this week I'm calling heragain saying it's us again.
We mean it this time, you know,and without the help of the US
(21:37):
Marshals we wouldn't even beable to locate these folks.
We wouldn't have thepartnership of how are we
getting them, you know, justmanually transporting them back
to the state of Michigan to holdthese offenders accountable.
And so those relationships arevital to the work that we're
doing, and again, without thosepartnerships, the people who
suffer are the victims the oneswho went to the police, did what
they were supposed to byreporting, agreed to participate
(21:59):
in the criminal justice processand have just been left in the
dark of what's going on.
no-transcript
Attorney General Dana N (22:33):
Another thing that I think is critical
that we talk about, I mean, inthe Michigan Department of
Attorney General during myadministration we have really
focused on sexual assault casesand often times cold-case sexual
assault cases.
Rebekah talked about ourOperation Survivor Justice
Initiative, but we also had I'mjust going to name some of these
the Larry Nassar case and allof its related cases, because it
wasn't just Larry Nassarseveral other defendants as well
, the Clergy Abuse Investigation, Boy Scouts of America
Investigation, our HumanTrafficking Commission, our Cold
Case SAKI initiative, meaningour rape kits initiative, and
(22:55):
that's just a handful of them,right?
So obviously we have tried totake sexual assault very, very
seriously in our state,recognizing the impact that it
has on victims.
Now, all crimes have an impacton victims, let's say that goes
without saying.
But sexual assault can oftenhave a different type of trauma
involved in it and, as a result,it impacts a person's life
(23:20):
differently in terms of howthey're going to cope with that
the rest of their life.
And one of the concerns thatI've had is just looking at the
Trump administration and thepeople who have been placed into
positions of great authority,all the way from the president,
who we know has been foundliable of sexual assault in a
court of law, to Pete Hegseth,the Secretary of Defense.
(23:42):
The nomination, of course, ofMatt Gaetz to Attorney General
and the list kind of goes on andon.
But what we've seen in generalis really the notion that we
don't care so much about sexualassault cases anymore and the
message that it sends to victims, but also to everybody in law
(24:03):
enforcement, and I wonder if Icould get your thoughts on that
issue.
Rebekah Snyder Cox (24:07):
I have repeatedly heard from clergy
abuse victims and also our coldcase sexual assault victims,
that their trust in the criminaljustice system is already
broken a lot of the times,especially in our office.
We are seeing these cases yearsand years later.
Something is a lot of times gonewrong in order for them to come
(24:28):
to us and a lot of the timesand so they already have this
distrust in the system.
There are news articles everyother day about a convicted
rapist who gets a probationarysentence or gets a one year of
incarceration, while the victimlives with a life sentence for
the rest of their lives.
This perpetuates that.
(24:48):
Seeing their abusers, orsomeone who maybe has a similar
story to what they'veexperienced, being victimized in
these positions in the highestand most important in our nation
further enforces that theyshouldn't even report and that
they shouldn't even go throughthe criminal justice system
because no one is going to careis the notion that they are left
(25:12):
with.
Which, if I could againreiterate, that is why we need
the community-based resources,because we as prosecutor-based
victim advocates can only offerso much right?
We can't be there for yearsafter the case has ended and
facilitating support groups andgetting them that one-on-one
counseling and therapist,because that's not what we're
(25:32):
trained to do.
We're trained to be with themin the pendency of the case and
the life of the case, and so itjust.
It further discourages victimsfrom participating in the
criminal justice process.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (26:00):
We really appreciate both of you uh
being with us.
This has been a reallyfascinating conversation and I
think um just highlights howimportant victim services are,
and I hope that folks inWashington DC who are making
these incredibly importantdecisions about the federal
budget will listen to thispodcast, listen to you, listen
to crime victims across thiscountry who not only cannot
(26:24):
afford and do not deserve tohave these services cut, but
frankly deserve to have thefunding increased.
I think we highlighted thisearlier, but we need an increase
in the funding for victimservices.
Attorney General Dana Ness (26:39):
Yeah , and I think what people don't
fully appreciate is that forevery victim that receives those
services, they're perhaps ableto go on and lead a productive
life where they are holding downa job, they're paying their
taxes.
It saves us money, the moremoney that we spend on victim
services.
So you don't care about theperson from just a human rights
(27:01):
standpoint, care about it froman economic standpoint as well.
But I want to see this lastthing, and that's that when we
think of the criminal justicesystem, you know we're taught to
think about prosecutors.
We're taught to think aboutdetectives and investigators.
We're taught to think aboutjudges.
Nothing works in the criminaljustice system without victim
(27:21):
advocates.
They are as important, if notmore important, to the system
than any other individuals andstaffers.
So I just want to thank youguys for all the hard work you
do.
I know that the burnout can betremendous, but I'll speak on
behalf of myself and AG Mayes,we appreciate your work so very
much.
Rebekah Snyder Cox (27:43):
Thank you guys, thanks for having us on.
Kirstin Flores (27:45):
Thank you for acknowledging that.
Thank you.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (27:47):
And I will name this.
One last thing.
I know we're still on, but whatdid we finally get at our
office, Bekah, just the lastweek?
Rebekah Snyder Cox (27:54):
A canine advocate!
We just got her.
Her name's Bathia and she'sfive months old and she's
getting picked up on Tuesday.
Attorney General Kris (28:03):
Kirstin, , do we have that?
No, we do not.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (28:06):
Do we want that?
Kirstin Flores (28:07):
Perhaps!
Attorney General Kris Maye (28:08):
okay
Attorney General Dana Nes (28:09):
We've been trying for years and we
finally got her.
And I don't know, I can'tguarantee that at the end of my
term she's not coming home withme.
Attorney General Kris Ma (28:23):
That's awesome.
Congrats you guys.
Thank you both for coming onwith us.
We appreciate you guys.
Thank you, see you soon.
Well, that's all the time wehave for today.
So remember, if you or someoneyou know has been a crime victim
, we are here to help.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (28:43):
The most important thing you can do
is reach out to us, a localservice provider, or to a friend
.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (28:52):
and we'll be back soon with another
episode of Pantsuits andLawsuits.
Attorney General Kris Ma (28:55):
Thanks for listening, and don't forget
to subscribe to this podcastand be the first to know when
new episodes drop.
H ello and welcome back to
Pantsuits and Lawsuits, the onlypodcast on air where you get to
hear from two state attorneysgeneral about the cases shaping
our nation's legal landscape inreal time.
Attorney General Kris May (00:18):
Every day, the morning headlines
announce some new crisis.
It's hard to stay on top ofthings, especially when it's all
mired in precise legal languagethat we both went to law school
for three years to learn how tounderstand.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (00:32):
And that's why we're here as your
trusty neighborhood AGs, tobreak it all down and explain
what impact the decisions beingmade in DC could and certainly
will have on your daily life.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (00:51):
So, Dana, April 6th begins National
Crime Victims Week.
So for today's episode, we'rebringing on Kirstin Flores, who
is the executive director of theArizona Attorney General's
Office of Victim Services, aswell as Rebekah Snyder Cox, who
manages the Michigan Departmentof Attorney General's Victims'
Rights Victim Services Division,and they're going to help us
(01:16):
talk about the importance offederal funding and resources
when it comes to supportingcrime victims in the wake of
tragedy.
Attorney General Dana Ness (01:24):
Well , before we start talking to
them, let's get a little bit ofbackground on this situation.
Now, during the first Trumpterm, they rolled back billions
of dollars in funding for theVictims of Crime Act and the
Violence Against Women Actprograms and, as just one of
(01:46):
many examples, in 2019, theDepartment of Housing and Urban
Development abruptly pulled$13.5 million in grant funding
to provide victims of sex andhuman trafficking with support
of housing services likeemergency shelter, child care,
trauma therapy.
Some organizations actually hadalready sent their applications
(02:08):
in by the time of theannouncement, and all that time
and effort was just wasted andit left so many people in
incredibly dangerous situations,all because Trump could not
find it in his heart or walletto support the most vulnerable
people in our communities.
And, in fact, I would go so faras to say that it seems as
(02:29):
though Donald Trump has justbeen openly contemptuous of
crime victims.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (02:34):
I'd agree, and now that Trump is
back in office, they aredefinitely back to their old
tricks.
On February 6, the office onviolence against women halted
all 2025 funding opportunitiesreally unbelievable.
For context, the OVW (office ofviolence against women)
(02:57):
allocated more than 684 milliondollars in grants for the 2024
fiscal year.
Grants previously listedincluded ones aimed at ending
abuse against vulnerable adults,providing housing for victims
of domestic violence and helpinglocal law enforcement stop
(03:18):
cyber crimes.
As a result of our OMB lawsuit,the Trump administration was
ordered to unfreeze these funds.
They had frozen those funds,which was crazy, of course, but
the previously posted grantopportunities were tak en
offline and the OVW webite isstill directing visitors not to
(03:42):
finalize any applicationsMeanwhile, the shelters doing
important work on the ground inArizona and Michigan and,
frankly, all across the country,don't know if they'll be able
to keep their lights on pastnext fall.
Attorney General Dana Ness (04:00):
Yeah , it's incredibly tragic.
And you know, look, if ourlegal system isn't helping
victims of crime, honestlywhat's the point?
You know we're losing sight ofthe fact that, first and
foremost, our job is to deliverjustice to those that have been
wronged.
And that philosophy dates, youknow, back to Reagan's task
(04:21):
force on the victims of crime.
You know that report that theyput out back in 1982 had so many
great recommendations likeestablishing confidential victim
counseling, providingprotection against victim and
witness intimidation,prioritizing the needs of
victims when prosecuting theirabusers and, you know, real
(04:42):
collaboration across so manydifferent agencies.
Attorney General Kris Maye (04:47):
Yeah , that was an incredibly
important report and here is adirect quote from that report:
"W e also found that there is noquick remedy to the innocent
victim's plight.
Only the sustained efforts offederal, state and local
governments can restore balanceto the criminal justice system.
(05:08):
" They passed the Victims ofCrime Act, also known as VOCA,
and associated funding streamstwo years after that report was
issued.
A pot of money not funded bytaxpayer dollars but through the
fines, settlements, bonds andother monetary penalties
(05:30):
associated with federal criminalprosecutions.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (05:34):
And last year marked the 40th
anniversary of VOCA, but thedwindling Crime Victims Fund is
really circling the drain and,according to the DOJ, the
balance dropped by about 83percent, from about 13 billion
in 2017 to just over 2 billionby the end of 2024.
(05:56):
So really for the last decade,responsibility has been shifting
towards the states to pick upthe federal government slack.
More cuts at this moment intime are so ill-advised, to say
the very least.
Attorney General Kris Maye (06:11):
Yeah , that's for sure, and, Dana,
I'm sure you hear the same thing, but out here, voca is so
incredibly important and thelast thing we need are these
additional cuts.
These resources supportthousands of victim assistance
programs throughout the UnitedStates, serving an average of
(06:31):
3.7 million victims of crime peryear.
So they fund things like childadvocacy centers, domestic
violence agencies, rape crisiscenters, and, as the top law
enforcement officers in ourrespective states, we have an
obligation to protect publicsafety.
(06:52):
So recent decisions from thefederal government to roll back
support for these programs makeour jobs harder in the states
and have the potential, frankly,to make communities less safe.
Attorney General Dana Ness (07:08):
It's so tragic and so upsetting, and
especially from the perspectiveof the jobs that we do each and
every day to try to protectvictims of crime.
This is so fundamentally flawedand incredibly unhelpful.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (07:34):
All right.
Well, it is so great to haveboth Kirstin Flores from the
Arizona Attorney General'soffice with us and Rebekah
Snyder Cox from Michigan, andthanks for joining us, both of
you.
Looking forward to thisconversation.
Kirstin Flores (07:52):
Thank you for having us.
Rebekah Snyder Cox (07:53):
Thank you guys.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (07:55):
One of the things that we were
talking about before you guyscame on is you know the
importance of VOCA funding forcrime victims and how that is
impacting your ability as peoplewho directly work with victims
each and every day.
It is your job, but what doesit mean when you are either
(08:17):
having delays in thedistribution of grant funding or
when grant funding isterminated altogether?
Kirstin Flores (08:24):
The uncertainty of not knowing whether or not
we're going to have grantfunding really can affect the
staff and the morale of theoffice, and that could trickle
down to the services that areprovided.
The funding by VOCA is just sovital in the work that we do.
(08:45):
I would say that in every caseof ours whether it's our
advocates working on ourinvestigations, our trial cases,
our appellate stage, when weoffer resources to a victim,
whether it be to a free victim'srights attorney, to the
victim's compensation program orto community-based
organizations who can help withrebuilding lives after domestic
(09:07):
violence abuse, are allresources paid for by VOCA.
And this is inclusive of theservices that we provide in the
Attorney General's Office andensuring those rights that the
victims are notified, thatthey're making sure they're
supported emotionally andfeeling safe during court, even
(09:28):
sometimes having a facility dogavailable during forensic
interview are all funded withthose federal funds.
So it really is vital and notknowing puts us in a really
difficult position
Rebekah Snyder Cox (09:37):
To echo some of that as well, we have a case
right now that's a cold casesexual assault.
The victim is in towards theupper peninsula in Michigan, so
from Lansing it's between a fourand five hour drive, not
considering the weather.
She is also unhomed, and soright now we have been
partnering and working with theshelter that she's staying with.
(10:02):
That has connected her withlocal resources that are VOCA
funded.
Her own shelter is funded bythese federal dollars, so it is
the way that we're able to talkwith her all the time.
She doesn't have a phone, shedoesn't have access to email or
the internet without theservices that she's being
provided right now in hercommunity.
We have partnered with localvictim advocates from a
(10:24):
community-based sexual assaultagency that is making sure that
when we hang up the phone withher that she's using through the
shelter services that she hassomeone to debrief with and talk
with.
And again, when the money is notgetting to them, when they're
having issues keeping the lightson or paying their staff, those
support groups aren't happening, the counseling one-on-one
(10:46):
services that are offered aren'thappening, and so it's really
vital for us as we work withvictims around the state.
Again, that might be 10 hoursaway from where our offices are
located and we can't make it upthere for every single
conversation that we're having.
We typically go up for courtevents right, and so to be able
to give them services wherethey're at is so important.
(11:07):
To be able to ensure thatthey're coming back to court and
they can testify.
This victim in particular isone of our operations survivor
justice ones.
So again we're re-engaging herafter 10 plus years, and from
when we called her to when wegot the defendant back in the
state, it was a five month span,and without those local
services we would have lostcontact with her and maybe lost
(11:32):
where she was because she wasunhomed.
So they're incredibly importantto our work every day.
Attorney General Kris Maye (11:38):
Yeah , that's an amazing story, and I
mean Arizona.
We were actually one of thefirst, if not the first state to
adopt a comprehensive victimsbill of rights.
Can you speak to that as well?
Like, what are some of thethings we're doing that would be
deeply harmed by additionalcuts?
Kirstin Flores (11:58):
Arizona has really just made a big effort
trying to make sure that all ofour victim advocates are
educated on victims' rights atevery stage of the process.
What can get confusing thatwe've identified is the
post-conviction stage.
Victims think it's over.
Advocates may not setexpectations for that next phase
of the case and there is a lotof post-conviction rights and
(12:20):
activity from probation, prison,parole.
All of those actually areservices that are provided by
VOCA funds as well in Arizonaand a lot of times victims can
feel re-victimized at manystages of the process and if we
have educated advocates who aresetting expectations and
providing services, it'll justmake things so much easier for
(12:42):
the victims and can addresstheir healing throughout that
process and make them feel likethey have a voice.
Attorney General Dana Ness (12:50):
Glad you mentioned that in terms of
the post-conviction process,because we're seeing a lot of
issues right now on severalfronts.
Firstly, I think people arebeing paroled earlier and
without just cause or reasonthan we've ever seen before in
our state.
But in addition to that, we'vehad many people who had to be
(13:12):
resentenced on first degreemurder cases because you had
juvenile lifers who had to beresentenced, and that was a lot
of people in our state.
So you have people who thoughtthat their family member's
murderer was going to be inprison for the rest of their
life and now you know we have togo experience that hearing
again.
And then, in addition to that,what we're seeing on the federal
(13:34):
front is just people who arebeing pardoned or having their
sentences commuted and I wouldsay this is true of both
Democratic and Republicanpresidents.
Seemingly, you know, withoutgoing through the regular
process that's normally gonethrough, and I think, at times
without even talking to thevictims of these crimes or their
family members.
(13:55):
And I mean, what kind of impactdoes that have on a person?
When you think the case is over, you think you know what their
sentence is and you either areat peace with it or maybe you
were part of that process, right?
Maybe this was a plea that wasoffered in some cases and you're
like, okay, I'm okay with thisbecause I know that this
(14:15):
individual is at least going toget a specific amount of time in
prison and I can mentallyprepare myself for that.
And then all of a sudden, oh myGod, they're out and you didn't
even know about it.
Can you talk a little bit, eachof you, about what kind of
impact that has on a crimevictim or crime victim's family,
and their trust and respect forthe justice system?
Rebekah Snyder Cox (14:37):
So we have been doing a lot as well in this
space.
I've worked on some of thejuvenile lifer cases with those
families.
The impact it has on a victimand their family you can't even
really adequately explain.
We had a case where theirfather was a corrections officer
and was murdered by an inmatethat he was transporting.
(15:07):
And having to make that phonecall again and ask them to come
back, not only to Michiganbecause they had moved out of
state, but to come back andspeak at another sentencing
hearing when he's likely goingto now get out and soon right,
because it's been I think at thetime it had been like 35 years
since he had been sentenced orsomething close to what his new
sentence was going to look like.
And so please come back tocourt, see him again in person,
(15:31):
make another statement and aplea to the judge to not let him
out anytime soon because of thebrutality of what he did, and
then to hear, "All right, he'llbe out in a couple of years.
Now, thanks for coming, thanksfor making that trek here from
Arizona, but we're going to lethim out.
Having to be with thosefamilies and sit there and
(15:53):
process what that looks like nowis indescribable.
It really is, and it's verysimilar to now the parole
hearings that we're getting moreand more involved in.
To the AG's point, we're seeinginmates be paroled at their
first hearing date, their firstopportunity, and victims who
(16:13):
believed that they may be keptup until that maximum sentence.
So in Michigan we are luckyenough to have the truth in
sentencing laws maximum sentence.
So in Michigan we are luckyenough to have the truth in
sentencing laws.
And so when they get sentencedallegedly, that is, you know,
every day they're going to spendof that minimum sentence, of it
in time, incarcerated.
But now they're coming to thefirst parole board hearing
(16:34):
giving these impact statements.
I just did this two weeks agowith the chief of our parole
appeals division.
We went to support a family andtheir pleas to please don't let
him out, keep him in theemotions they're crying during
this hearing and they'reappealing to this parole board
member to keep this man in.
He's making progress.
(16:55):
We're afraid of him and theparole board member essentially
told us there's not a lot we cando.
It was a two hour drive forthem one way to come make this,
you know, plea to a parole boardmember and to hear that even if
we can and I don't think we can, but even if we can keep him,
we'll call you back in sixmonths to do this all over again
, because the max we can reallyextend it as a year.
(17:15):
Like I said, it's justindescribable the emotions
associated with that and thepain because it takes them right
back to the crime and when ithappened and like the juvenile
lifer case again, it was 30years ago and now we're bringing
it all back up and asking youto come back to court, which we
thought you'd never have to do.
So it's it's incrediblydifficult.
Kirstin Flores (17:36):
I don't have much more to add to that.
Rebekah, you said thatperfectly.
But, like you said, it just canbring.
It brings everything back fromwhen they first experienced the
crime and but just 30 yearslater, it's just.
They don't have their supportsystem with them anymore.
It's just, it's just reallyjarring.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (18:12):
so um for for both of you, I'd love
for you to talk about um thekinds of partnerships that we
have at our offices with federalagencies, and how an erosion of
those relationships oradditional cutting of funding in
things like VOCA and othergrants could make it harder to
deliver justice and supportvictims
Kirstin Flores (18:37):
For us, we have a lot our cases that we
prosecute or even investigateare referred to us by federal
agencies like the FBI orHomeland Security.
The types of cases range fromhuman trafficking, we've got
some white collar fraud cases aswell, and it's important for us
that we have our advocatesdevelop relationships with the
(18:58):
advocates in those officesbecause if they have been
receiving services from thosefederal agencies and the case is
now at the attorney general'soffice, we want to make sure
that there's a warm handoff,that the advocates talk to our
advocates about maybe someissues that we may want to be
aware of, explain what's alreadyhappened in the case, so that
(19:18):
we don't have to reinvent thewheel with this victim, so they
don't have to tell us thingsagain necessarily.
e've we have some reallyeffective relationships that
we've really tried hard to buildwith those federal agencies and
recently, I think under AGMayes, we've really tried to
focus on our tribal partners aswell and make sure our staff is
(19:39):
culturally competent to workwith the victims from our tribal
communities and that we're alsoaware of specific resources
that we can provide thosevictims that they may not have
wanted to take advantage of someof the other resources that we
have in general in those cases.
So having some specificresources are really important.
(20:00):
So those partnerships are vitalto ensuring victims receive
their appropriate services andsupport.
Rebekah Snyder Cox (20:08):
Yeah, very similarly to everything you just
said, especially when it comesto human trafficking cases and
work, a lot of those arepartners with the FBI.
The AG Nessel just launched anew task force, an area that
we're trying to focus on withthe Missing and Murdered
Indigenous People for the stateof Michigan.
So we are establishing a lot ofthose partnerships with not
only the US Attorney's officesin both districts for Michigan,
(20:31):
but also with the communitypartners that are funded through
a lot of federal dollars tooffer the counseling, the
support services that areculturally honoring as well.
And, in addition to that, theOperation Survivor Justice that
I had mentioned earlier, whichis an initiative that we've
launched trying to extradite allof the sexual assault warrants
(20:56):
that are active in Michigan fordefendants who have fled the
state, and so we are partneringwith the US Marshals to find
those people and get them backin Michigan.
We meet once a week with the USMarshals to discuss how are we
going to re-engage these victims.
I just made a phone call thisweek to a victim who did
everything right.
She reported her sexual assaultin 2007.
(21:16):
They said we're going toprosecute.
They submitted the warrant.
He flees.
In 2017, someone calls heragain.
They'd have.
We found a governor's warrant.
It went cold.
We have no idea what happenedand why they didn't actually.
So this week I'm calling heragain saying it's us again.
We mean it this time, you know,and without the help of the US
(21:37):
Marshals we wouldn't even beable to locate these folks.
We wouldn't have thepartnership of how are we
getting them, you know, justmanually transporting them back
to the state of Michigan to holdthese offenders accountable.
And so those relationships arevital to the work that we're
doing, and again, without thosepartnerships, the people who
suffer are the victims the oneswho went to the police, did what
they were supposed to byreporting, agreed to participate
(21:59):
in the criminal justice processand have just been left in the
dark of what's going on.
no-transcript
Attorney General Dana N (22:33):
Another thing that I think is critical
that we talk about, I mean, inthe Michigan Department of
Attorney General during myadministration we have really
focused on sexual assault casesand often times cold-case sexual
assault cases.
Rebekah talked about ourOperation Survivor Justice
Initiative, but we also had I'mjust going to name some of these
the Larry Nassar case and allof its related cases, because it
wasn't just Larry Nassarseveral other defendants as well
, the Clergy Abuse Investigation, Boy Scouts of America
Investigation, our HumanTrafficking Commission, our Cold
Case SAKI initiative, meaningour rape kits initiative, and
(22:55):
that's just a handful of them,right?
So obviously we have tried totake sexual assault very, very
seriously in our state,recognizing the impact that it
has on victims.
Now, all crimes have an impacton victims, let's say that goes
without saying.
But sexual assault can oftenhave a different type of trauma
involved in it and, as a result,it impacts a person's life
(23:20):
differently in terms of howthey're going to cope with that
the rest of their life.
And one of the concerns thatI've had is just looking at the
Trump administration and thepeople who have been placed into
positions of great authority,all the way from the president,
who we know has been foundliable of sexual assault in a
court of law, to Pete Hegseth,the Secretary of Defense.
(23:42):
The nomination, of course, ofMatt Gaetz to Attorney General
and the list kind of goes on andon.
But what we've seen in generalis really the notion that we
don't care so much about sexualassault cases anymore and the
message that it sends to victims, but also to everybody in law
(24:03):
enforcement, and I wonder if Icould get your thoughts on that
issue.
Rebekah Snyder Cox (24:07):
I have repeatedly heard from clergy
abuse victims and also our coldcase sexual assault victims,
that their trust in the criminaljustice system is already
broken a lot of the times,especially in our office.
We are seeing these cases yearsand years later.
Something is a lot of times gonewrong in order for them to come
(24:28):
to us and a lot of the timesand so they already have this
distrust in the system.
There are news articles everyother day about a convicted
rapist who gets a probationarysentence or gets a one year of
incarceration, while the victimlives with a life sentence for
the rest of their lives.
This perpetuates that.
(24:48):
Seeing their abusers, orsomeone who maybe has a similar
story to what they'veexperienced, being victimized in
these positions in the highestand most important in our nation
further enforces that theyshouldn't even report and that
they shouldn't even go throughthe criminal justice system
because no one is going to careis the notion that they are left
(25:12):
with.
Which, if I could againreiterate, that is why we need
the community-based resources,because we as prosecutor-based
victim advocates can only offerso much right?
We can't be there for yearsafter the case has ended and
facilitating support groups andgetting them that one-on-one
counseling and therapist,because that's not what we're
(25:32):
trained to do.
We're trained to be with themin the pendency of the case and
the life of the case, and so itjust.
It further discourages victimsfrom participating in the
criminal justice process.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (26:00):
We really appreciate both of you uh
being with us.
This has been a reallyfascinating conversation and I
think um just highlights howimportant victim services are,
and I hope that folks inWashington DC who are making
these incredibly importantdecisions about the federal
budget will listen to thispodcast, listen to you, listen
to crime victims across thiscountry who not only cannot
(26:24):
afford and do not deserve tohave these services cut, but
frankly deserve to have thefunding increased.
I think we highlighted thisearlier, but we need an increase
in the funding for victimservices.
Attorney General Dana Ness (26:39):
Yeah , and I think what people don't
fully appreciate is that forevery victim that receives those
services, they're perhaps ableto go on and lead a productive
life where they are holding downa job, they're paying their
taxes.
It saves us money, the moremoney that we spend on victim
services.
So you don't care about theperson from just a human rights
(27:01):
standpoint, care about it froman economic standpoint as well.
But I want to see this lastthing, and that's that when we
think of the criminal justicesystem, you know we're taught to
think about prosecutors.
We're taught to think aboutdetectives and investigators.
We're taught to think aboutjudges.
Nothing works in the criminaljustice system without victim
(27:21):
advocates.
They are as important, if notmore important, to the system
than any other individuals andstaffers.
So I just want to thank youguys for all the hard work you
do.
I know that the burnout can betremendous, but I'll speak on
behalf of myself and AG Mayes,we appreciate your work so very
much.
Rebekah Snyder Cox (27:43):
Thank you guys, thanks for having us on.
Kirstin Flores (27:45):
Thank you for acknowledging that.
Thank you.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (27:47):
And I will name this.
One last thing.
I know we're still on, but whatdid we finally get at our
office, Bekah, just the lastweek?
Rebekah Snyder Cox (27:54):
A canine advocate!
We just got her.
Her name's Bathia and she'sfive months old and she's
getting picked up on Tuesday.
Attorney General Kris (28:03):
Kirstin, , do we have that?
No, we do not.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (28:06):
Do we want that?
Kirstin Flores (28:07):
Perhaps!
Attorney General Kris Maye (28:08):
okay
Attorney General Dana Nes (28:09):
We've been trying for years and we
finally got her.
And I don't know, I can'tguarantee that at the end of my
term she's not coming home withme.
Attorney General Kris Ma (28:23):
That's awesome.
Congrats you guys.
Thank you both for coming onwith us.
We appreciate you guys.
Thank you, see you soon.
Well, that's all the time wehave for today.
So remember, if you or someoneyou know has been a crime victim
, we are here to help.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (28:43):
The most important thing you can do
is reach out to us, a localservice provider, or to a friend
.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (28:52):
and we'll be back soon with another
episode of Pantsuits andLawsuits.
Attorney General Kris Ma (28:55):
Thanks for listening, and don't forget
to subscribe to this podcastand be the first to know when
new episodes drop.
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