June 20, 2025 • 33 mins
A decade ago, two Michigan nurses embarked on a journey that would transform American history – not in hopes of a constitutional revolution, but because they wanted to protect their children.
April DeBoer and Jayne Rowse had been together for 18 years when they first approached attorney Dana Nessel about a seemingly simple problem. As Michigan foster parents raising three children, they faced a legal paradox: the state trusted them to foster children together but prohibited them from jointly adopting. Each parent could only legally adopt specific children, creating a precarious situation where neither had legal rights to all their children.
After surviving a near-fatal car accident, the reality hit them hard – if something happened to either mother, their family could be torn apart by the legal system they trusted to protect them. What began as an adoption rights case unexpectedly pivoted when a federal judge suggested they challenge Michigan's marriage ban instead. This fateful turn transformed their personal struggle into what would become the landmark Supreme Court case legalizing same-sex marriage nationwide.
April and Jayne invite listeners into the emotional Supreme Court experience – from the sea of supporters outside, to the confusing oral arguments where Justice Kennedy's position remained unclear, to the euphoric moment when they learned they'd won. With remarkable candor, they share how they balanced raising five children while becoming reluctant civil rights pioneers, and how they found courage in looking at "those tiny faces" they were fighting to protect.
As we mark ten years since Obergefell, their story offers both inspiration and warning. While reflecting on how quickly attitudes have changed, these accidental figureheads also express concern about how easily these LGBTQ rights and protections could disappear. Their powerful testimony reminds us that behind every landmark legal decision are real families with everything at stake – and that ordinary citizens stepping up for their children can indeed change history.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Attorney General Kris May (00:05):
Hello and welcome back to the second
installment of our special PrideMonth retrospective celebrating
the 10-year anniversary ofObergefell v Hodges landmark
Supreme Court case, whichlegalized same-sex marriage and
adoption rights all across theUnited States.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (00:28):
I'm Michigan Attorney General Dana
Nessel.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (00:31):
And I'm Arizona Attorney General
Kris Mayes,
Attorney General Dana Nesse (00:34):
And if you, were not able to catch
part one of this rivetingepisode, we'd recommend pausing
now and listening to that onefirst.
Let's get started, and I willjust say this personally,
(00:54):
because this is the story ofApril and Jayne, but it's my
story too.
You know, I met my wife workingon this case.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (01:04):
I met her at a local library.
They were having a Democraticclub meeting which I had never
been to before.
It was my first Dem club meeting
and I was desperately- becausewe couldn't get funding to
support the litigation, whichhad become very expensive, and
it was hard for the attorneysourselves to have to eat all
those costs.
And so I started going to somedifferent Dem clubs, including
(01:25):
in my own hometown, where Ididn't even know they had a Dem
club and my mother-in-law wasthe president of the Dem club.
And I met her daughter, whobegan working on helping us
raise money and then puttogether a nonprofit to
subsidize the cost of the case.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (01:44):
Wow !
Attorney General Dana Ness (01:45):
Then she started working on the case
and became our project managerto put all the exhibits and
everything together for trialand the PowerPoint and all the
rest.
We got engaged.
I proposed to her on the stepsof the Supreme court, following
our argument, and then we got-
Attorney General Kris Ma (02:01):
You're kidding! Really following your
argument?
Wow!
Attorney General Dana Nes (02:04):
Right after the arguments, and I said
, if-
Attorney General Kris Ma (02:07):
That's so romantic!
Attorney General Dana Nesse (02:08):
Yes , if five of the nine justices
of this Supreme court agree,will you be applicant number two
on my application for amarriage license in the state of
Michigan.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (02:18):
Oh my God.
Attorney General Dana Ness (02:19):
Well , that was my proposal to her.
Attorney General Kris (02:21):
Literally , that was it?
Attorney General Dana Ness (02:23):
That was it.
She was very romantic, romantic, uh.
She accepted.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (02:27):
In a weird sort of way,
Attorney General Dana Nessel (02:43):
Hi , you guys, thank you so much
for uh joining us, and I knowit's been a little bit since
we've seen each other.
But, April and Jayne, this AGKris Mayes, from Arizona, and,
as you probably know, now wehave a podcast together and I'm
so excited that you guys couldjoin us today to talk about the
10-year anniversary ofObergefell, slash Deboer v.
(03:04):
Synder which is what it reallyshould be called.
Attorney General Kris May (03:09):
We've been talking, Dana and I have
been talking, and she gave methe full procedural history and
how it really should have beencalled something else.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (03:19):
Yes , Absolutely, and again, no
offense to him.
But in our household we referto Jim Obergefell as an accident
of history because we stillbelieve the case should be
called DeBoer v Snyder.
And I actually have a coffeemug from the Supreme Court that
has all the most impactful casesand I have it like duct taped
out and I have written DeBoer vSnyder over Obergefell.
Jayne Rowse (03:44):
That's great.
Attorney General Dana Ness (03:45):
Just just to back up, you guys have
five children together.
April DeBoer (03:48):
We do, yes.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (03:49):
Do you want to tell AG Mayes and
our listeners a little bit abouthow you guys formed your family
?
April DeBoer (03:56):
Oh sure.
So Jayne and I adopted all fiveof our children.
So initially Nolan came to usfirst, and here in the state of
Michigan we were not allowed toadopt the children together.
So Nolan was adopted initiallyby Jayne, and then we had Ryanne
(04:20):
come into our house and to ourlife and she initially was
adopted by me.
And then Jacob came and Jacobwas adopted again by Jayne
because I was still in theprocess of adopting Ryanne, and
so we had these three wonderfulchildren, and that's how it all
(04:44):
started.
And then we adopted two morechildren after.
The two of Rylee, was adoptedagain by me, and then Kennedy
came after the ruling and thedecision.
So she was the first and onlychild to be jointly adopted by
both of us.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (05:03):
And Kris, I'm sure it's not lost on
you the name of their youngestchild, named after Justice
Kennedy.
Attorney General Kris Maye (05:13):
Very interesting.
Okay good.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (05:16):
But again, and just important to
know, that April and Jayne, youguys had been together when you
first brought Nolan in.
For how many years had you guysbeen a couple?
April DeBoer (05:26):
Oh, that's totally you Jayne.
Jayne Rowse (05:29):
Let's see.
18.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (05:31):
Wow , about 18 years.
And both April and Jayne were,at the time, nurses in local
hospitals in Detroit and Jaynewas an emergency room nurse and
April was a NICU nurse, and theyhad both been qualified by the
state to be foster care parents.
(05:52):
So they were able to bringchildren into their homes as
foster care parents, and jointlyso, but not as adoptive parents
together, which was a weirdquirk of the law that we found
to be incredibly horrible.
So I'm just with thatbackground for everybody
April DeBoer (06:12):
Yeah for sure.
Attorney General Dana Ness (06:13):
With that you guys.
I wonder if you could juststart off by telling us a little
bit about that fateful day backin.
I believe it was 2011, I think,when we first spoke and talked
about the possibility ofbringing this federal lawsuit.
April DeBoer (06:29):
So, yeah, I think I had located you.
We had a near-miss accident,almost were killed in a car
accident, and the realizationhit that if something happened
to Jayne, that the boys wouldend up not having a parent and I
(06:51):
personally would have no legalright to either of the boys.
And then the realization that mymom, who is really the only I
shouldn't say just my mom, butmy family was really the only
family that the kids had knownbecause we lived in Michigan,
and Jayne's family's fromIndiana.
(07:11):
And then it was the realizationthat Nolan, had he survived,
would have been going tosomebody that he didn't know
really at all, because theywould have the next legal right
to Nolan, and that just didn'tsit well with us.
And we had been seeing a bunchof advertisements and
(07:32):
information about Dana wantingto do some second documentation
for wills and all of that inchild custody for gays and
lesbians who found themselves inthis situation.
So I reached out to her and I'mlike, "what can we do?
And her comment was "well, wecan get this all on paper, but
(07:55):
it's only going to be worth thepaper that it's written on,
because the judges can make anydecision that they want" based
on us having no legal right toour kids, and so we went from
there to well, what else can wedo?
Jayne Rowse (08:11):
And Dana had the great plan up her sleeve.
Attorney General Kris Maye (08:22):
Tell me about that great plan and
what it was like to work withher, and did she prepare you at
all or steel you for what wasahead, what was going to be this
, what must have been a rollercoaster of a ride and, at the
end of the day, literally makingAmerican history.
Like what was that like workingwith her?
(08:43):
I'm just curious.
Jayne Rowse (08:46):
Nobody anticipated where it was going to go, that's
for sure.
Attorney General Kris M (08:50):
Really,
Jayne Rowse (08:51):
No.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (08:52):
Did she tell you?
But she just told me that shehad a feeling deep down that
this thing was going to go allthe way.
Jayne Rowse (08:59):
She didn't share, that we didn't know it was going
to switch to marriage.
That was, I think that was thebig thing, was you know?
We had hoped that adoptionwould have been the key, because
that was something everybodycould get behind.
But when you know, JudgeFriedman said, well, this is a
gay marriage case, we were like,oh no, that's not what this is,
(09:20):
and that was, that was thepivotal point in all this that
everybody went, oh no, what dowe do now?
Attorney General Dana Nessel (09:28):
We were initially challenging the
the adoption code in Michiganthat didn't allow for people who
weren't married to be able toadopt jointly.
And when we had cross motionsfor summary judgment before our
district court judge in theEastern District of Michigan, he
surprised all of us by notgranting either of the motions
(09:51):
for summary and by saying Ithink you have to amend your
pleadings.
This is not an adoption case,this is a marriage case.
You have to challenge theMichigan marriage amendment
which doesn't allow you to getmarried in the first place,
because you wouldn't have toworry about the adoption code
saying that you had to be amarried couple if only you could
get married.
So really you should justchallenge the marriage ban.
(10:13):
And that threw all of us for alittle bit of a loop, I thought
I think is a mild way to put it.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (10:21):
So, so so you end up in this case
case it's it's taking thesetwists and these turns and, as
Dana has described earlier, uh,in the podcast, you, you all end
up really kind of getting umswept into this um case that
ends up at the Supreme Court.
I mean, I don't mean to cut tothe chase or anything, but what
(10:43):
was that like?
And then tell me what it waslike when, on the day that you
that you won the case or foundout that you'd won the case.
The way to get to the SupremeCourt, or when we got there?
Attorney General Kris Maye (10:59):
Both .
Both, especially when you gotthere, but both what was, what
was, what was both like?
Jayne Rowse (11:06):
I think getting there was.
You know it's going to soundcrazy, but it wasn't hard, it
was going, you know, goingthrough things.
But once we really explainedwhy we were doing what we were
doing, most people understood.
They realized that we weren'treally out for marriage per se,
(11:27):
but it was to protect the kids.
Attorney General Kris Maye (11:29):
Yeah .
Jayne Rowse (11:29):
Once that was explained, people were like,
okay, I can see why you're doingthis.
Yeah, um, once we got to theSupreme Court, wow, what a
feeling that was.
That was crazy.
Like nothing I'd ever seenthere was.
You know, there was just a seaof people and the Michigan
contingent was huge.
Like, what we brought wasincredible.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (11:53):
So you were there the day of the
arguments?
Jayne Rowse (11:57):
Yes, we were in the court the day of the arguments
Attorney General Kris Mayes (12:00):
Wow , what did that feel like?
What was that like?
April DeBoer (12:04):
Well, I think, um, my, the scariest moment of that
whole thing was how theybrought us into the Supreme
Court.
They walked us through thecrowd.
It was a little scary, but itwas just a sense of awe, like
how did we get here?
(12:25):
I mean, like we're just twoparents who want our kids to
have safeties, how are we in theSupreme Court?
It was just crazy.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (12:42):
I guess let me ask this question
to all three of you.
What was when you werelistening to the oral argument?
What were your thoughts?
And, Dana, like, what were youthinking?
How did you feel?
Like it was going in the moment?
Obviously, it ended up goingwell.
But-
Attorney General Dana Ness (12:57):
Yeah , I mean, the thing was it was
so hard to tell.
You know, as you wouldanticipate, the questions that
were asked by Justice Kagan weresemi- predictable by, you know,
Justice Ginsburg Also.
The questions that Alito askedwere not very favorable, as you
would anticipate.
(13:17):
But it was Kennedy that Icouldn't tell which way he was
going to go.
And here we knew that theentire case was predicated on
what Kennedy was going to domost likely.
I kind of hoped maybe there wasa chance with Roberts, but that
was an outside chance.
But it was Kennedy that we werecounting on and the way he was,
you know, positioning hisquestions I couldn't tell one
(13:39):
way or the other.
And it was the first time Ithought my God, are we going to
lose this case?
Because I don't know what youguys thought, but I wasn't sure
from some of the questions thathe asked.
Justice Anthony Kennedy (13:50):
You said that.
Well, marriage is differentbecause it's controlled by the
government.
But from a historical, from ananthropological standpoint,
Justice Scalia was very carefulto talk about societies.
Justice Alito talked aboutcultures.
If you read about the Kalaharipeople or ancient peoples, they
(14:11):
didn't have a government thatmade this Well, they made it
themselves, and it was man orwoman.
Part of what you see, I suppose,is to ascertain whether the
social science, the new studies,are accurate, but that it seems
to me then that we should notconsult at all the social
(14:38):
science on this because it's toonew.
You say we don't need to waitfor changes.
So it seems to me that if we'renot going to wait, then it's
only fair for us to say well,we're not going to consult
social science.
Justice Alito's question pointsout the assumption of his
hypothetical and the way thesecases are presented is that the
(15:03):
state does have a sufficientinterest so that it need not
allow the marriages in thatstate.
So there is a sufficientinterest under our arguendo
assumption here to say that thisis not a fundamental right.
But then, suddenly, if you'reout of state, why should the
(15:25):
state have to yield?
Jayne Rowse (15:31):
I thought the questions were crazy.
Yeah, the questions.
We were just like where are wegoing with this?
Because to me some of themdidn't line up with what the
case was all about.
They were going down thisrabbit hole of weird questions.
April DeBoer (15:47):
I think we left just not not knowing, like if
there was a bigger questionafter we left than before we
went in.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (15:56):
S o then the big day happens.
Well, tell me about where youwere when, when it happened, and
what, what you, what wentthrough your minds when the
decision was read.
Jayne Rowse (16:10):
Well, every day we waited for if the case was going
to be put up that day, andevery day it was like, oh, and
it got down to Friday, and itwas either Friday or Monday when
it was, it had to come out.
And I we had plans every day tobe in Ann Arbor.
So we were at the Jim ToyCenter in Ann Arbor
(16:34):
and waiting, yeah, hoping, hoping it was going to
come out, because there werejust hundreds and hundreds of
people waiting.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (16:42):
And media press from all across the
world.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (16:46):
Wow .
You were all together?
Jayne Rowse (16:49):
When it popped up we were all together.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (16:51):
Ok
Jayne Rowse (16:52):
Yeah, we were.
We were all on our edge of ourseats waiting to see if it was
going to pop up.
So when it did, then everybodyreally leaned in and waited to
hear what was going to be said,and I think it was Alana that
actually read it, and then Carolwas right behind her and it was
like, and then it was likequiet and then celebration.
Attorney General Dana Ness (17:14):
Yeah , I mean nobody wants to be
wrong because you're in realtime, You're reading it, while
you have all these members ofthe press that are reading it
and you know nobody wants to belike, oh, that that's the wrong
interpretation of what they justsaid of this summary, but it's
so.
It took us a second or twobefore we all jumped up and just
(17:35):
I mean tears of joy, yes and so, and just I mean tears of joy.
Jayne Rowse (17:50):
I think it was like "we won.
I think we won.
Wait, we won.
It was just, you know, jumpingaround and hugging and tears.
April DeBoer (18:02):
And my kids were actually in a summer camp of
sorts and so my mom had takenthem over there and so somebody
had the television runninginside the building and my mom
said it was the cutest thing shesays all of a sudden she heard
there.
And my mom said it was thecutest thing she says all of a
sudden she heard "there's my mom.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (18:25):
So so what was the immediate?
So you have this incrediblemoment of euphoria over this
decision.
What was the immediatepractical effect of the decision
?
Attorney General Dana Ness (18:39):
They had to plan a wedding,
Jayne Rowse (18:43):
No we had to go out and watch weddings.
married like crazy.
It was great!
April DeBoer (18:54):
I think we, we signed a couple of uh wedding
certificates, I believe aswitnesses.
Jayne Rowse (18:59):
Yeah we did.
Attorney General Dana Ness (18:59):
Yeah you guys did,
Attorney General Kris Mayes (19:05):
But there were- you ultimately
achieved what you set out toachieve.
April DeBoer (19:10):
Correct.
If it weren't for the group ofattorneys that we had, I don't
think we would have made itwhere we were.
But yeah, we got what we wantedand what my kids needed, and
that's really the bottom line.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (19:31):
You know you mentioned something I
don't know if it was you, Jayne,or April.
You mentioned that that people,um, when you, when you talk to
people about, uh, the practicalimplications of being able to
adopt and and get married, theystarted to get it, they started
to support what you were doing.
Um, I guess, and and I guess myquestion is um.
(19:56):
So what's the reaction?
You know we're coming up on 10years, the 10-year anniversary
of this decision.
Has that support only grown, doyou feel like, since the
decision?
Obviously one of the reasonswe're doing this podcast is
that- not only to celebrate thedecision but also there's been
rumblings that the Supreme Courtmight overturn it.
(20:25):
We've had some reallydisturbing comments by at least
one, if not more, of the SupremeCourt justices about
potentially overturning it.
How do people react now?
I haven't had any negatives.
I don't know about you, I mean,everybody just seems to be like
had any negatives?
I don't.
I don't know about you.
I mean, everybody just seems tobe like oh, they're married,
(20:45):
okay, life goes on, there's nodifference.
I haven't heard any negative.
April DeBoer (20:52):
I haven't either.
We, we have not been approachedby anybody.
There's been really no negativemedia.
No, not on our end anyway.
But again, we kind of fadedinto the background because you
know, we did our work and
Attorney General Kris Mayes (21:09):
Yes , you did.
April DeBoer (21:17):
We retired.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (21:17):
But I will say this I think that
April and Jayne being who theyare and their family being who
they were, and them openingthemselves up the way that you
have to when you are theplaintiffs in a massive case, as
this one was, you know, I knowit took a toll on them and their
family, but for us, you know,for me, working on the case, I
wanted the entire world to getto know April and Jayne and
(21:39):
their kids, because I knew thatto know them is to love them and
to understand that if you knowthis family, you can't otherize
them.
They are just like you.
They are your friends, they areyour neighbors, they're the.
These are the people you go towhen you have a sick family
member and you you have.
You go to the hospital or youknow this is.
These are parents who are onyour kid's field trip.
(22:01):
You know a chaperones with you.
They're exactly like you andthey just want to be treated
exactly the same.
No better, no, not inferior.
They just want to be treatedthe same as all other couples
and all other families.
And that's what April and Jaynedid is they brought that to
everybody and they know thatthere was not a camera that they
(22:23):
shied away from or a microphone, when I had shoved it in front
of them and said you know, makesure you're presenting your case
.
I mean, I can't do this and theother lawyers can't do this the
way that you can, to beadvocates for yourself, to show
the whole world that you're justregular people and you're just
a family that wants to berecognized as a legal family
(22:43):
with legal rights, like allother families are.
And they did just such aphenomenal job in that.
So, yes, I'd like to think thatthe lawyers on the case made
very good arguments andpresented good evidence, but it
was them as a family.
I think that ultimately led tothe success of this case.
That ultimately led to thesuccess of this case because,
whether we want to believe it ornot, I think that the Supreme
(23:05):
Court does pay attention topublic opinion.
I think it does matter.
And I think that they were aninstrumental part themselves,
with many other families acrossthe United States stepping
forward and saying, instead ofhiding in the shadows, saying we
are a family too and we deserveto have these rights.
(23:26):
And they subjected themselvesto a lot in terms of the time,
the energy, the effort and alsoyou know it's a scary thing to
put yourself out there publiclylike that, but they were champs
and they never said no to any ofthat stuff and I think they
understood their place inhistory and they stepped up, and
(23:46):
but not for this.
You know normally a lot ofthese groups.
You know the ACLU or, or youknow you know Lambda Legal or
all these other groups.
You know they spend so muchtime like selecting their
plaintiffs right and making surethat they have people that will
present best to the courts.
(24:08):
And you know we didn't do anyof that.
Just April and Jayne called meup one day and I heard their
story and I was so moved by it.
I just knew that that they werethe ones to really move the
ball forward and they were suchchamps.
I can't believe that you guyssaid yes first of all, and it
(24:28):
was a very difficult three and ahalf years or so.
I mean, it was not easy on them, it was not easier on their
families, but they dideverything that was asked of
them and I think they were a bigpart of this win, as well as
many other factors thatcoalesced at the same time, so
they deserve a lot of credit forthis.
Attorney General Kris Maye (24:54):
This is a very organic story, which
is really interesting, Dana, andhow your case came about.
During that three and a halfyears, I guess my question for
both of you, April and Jayne, isdid you ever feel like at any
point, I can't do this?
This is too much.
Dana has got me in way over myhead Because she's right.
(25:17):
It's one thing for Dana and Iwe love doing television, right,
Dana?
But it's another thing to askyou guys who are trying to raise
multiple kiddos with full-time,really, really hard jobs to go
out there and do this and be thelead plaintiffs in a case like
(25:37):
this.
April DeBoer (25:39):
Were there times that we looked at each other and
said have we lost our minds?
Of course there were times.
But you go back home and youstare at those three, four, five
tiny faces and you know.
You know you're doing the rightthing.
No, any parent, any mother, isgoing to do anything that they
(26:02):
can to protect their child andthat's all we were doing.
You know.
I think at some point in timethey tried to change the idea of
the court case.
When they changed it tomarriage, we were asked by some
outside groups to focus on Jayneand I, and when we did that, it
wasn't natural because thiswasn't about Jayne and I.
(26:25):
Jayne and I knew what we weregetting ourselves into.
We knew when we got married andhad our commitment ceremony, we
knew what we were looking into.
I don't think when we startedadopting kids that we realized
what we were getting them intoand it wasn't fair.
So we were going to do anythingwe could to make sure that they
(26:47):
were safe.
Attorney General Dana Ness (26:48):
Yeah , and I mean just all of the
hundreds of thousands offamilies now that have rights
that they sort of take forgranted, not knowing what it was
like to live during a timeperiod where they didn't have
those rights.
And again, it's only been 10years, it's not like this is
something that happened 50 yearsago or 70 years ago or 100
years ago.
(27:09):
But I think that the collectivememory, especially for younger
generations, of what it was liketo not have the same rights and
you know, as your neighbors, asall the other families that you
know, I mean, I think that'sbeen sort of lost in many ways,
because we did make a lot ofprogress very, very quickly, and
I think it's only now thatpeople are starting to
(27:30):
appreciate that all of that canbe taken away just as quickly as
it came about in the firstplace.
April DeBoer (27:37):
Yes, we were asked a question as to how are we
going to celebrate the 10 yearanniversary, and the only thing
I could think of was I don'tknow that I can celebrate it.
Yes, we're happy we're here,but it just takes a moment for
us to lose all of this.
And and how do you celebratethat?
Attorney General Kris May (28:08):
Dana, behind her has a picture of
herself arguing your case.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (28:12):
And there's you guys!
Attorney General Kris May (28:14):
There you are.
Jayne Rowse (28:15):
Oh there we are.
Attorney General Dana Ness (28:16):
Yeah , we all looked like 40 years
younger, I think at that time.
Jayne Rowse (28:22):
That's not my drawing, Dana.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (28:26):
No , she, during the course of the
trial.
Jayne is actually a very goodartist, by the way.
I have your drawings.
Here's the funny part, ofcourse, is that you know who do
we try this case against?
But the Department of AttorneyGeneral, and so all of our
opposing counsel, all thoselawyers now work for me, and so
(28:46):
Jayne, you know, would sketchlike hilarious little cartoons
of them.
But it is why- I mean it's oneof those things like talk about
ironies the fact that I was tosucceed that Attorney General
that fought us so hard on thatcase and came up with those t
horrifically creative argumentsas to why, you know, same-sex
(29:07):
couples weren't good enough toget married, why we couldn't.
You know why same-sex couplescouldn't appreciate the sanctity
of marriage, or why ourchildren were destined to all go
to prison, which was an actualargument that
they made.
And to know that by people likeyou and I serving in these
roles, we can ensure that ourstate tax dollars are used to
(29:27):
protect our state residentsinstead of to discriminate
against them.
And I think that's sort of
an interesting point.
Now too, and Ialways tell the story of like,
downstairs in the lobby, rightin front of my predecessor's
portrait down, there is a prideflag, which I'm sure if he ever
comes back to the Department ofAttorney General, he will really
(29:47):
appreciate the placement ofthat particular flag.
It matters having people inthese critical offices that care
about people's constitutionalrights and want to make their
lives better, not worse.
Attorney General Kris Maye (30:01):
Yeah , yeah, exactly, and it matters
that we have folks like both ofyou who are willing to stand up
for what's right, to stand upfor your families as April
pointed out, because that's whatwhat this is about and to stand
up for fundamental right.
Thank you both for everythingthat you did for our country.
(30:24):
You're both patriots as far asI'm concerned, and I am a little
jealous because you got to hangout with Dana in a court case
for three and a half years.
Attorney General Dana Ne (30:37):
Listen , I'm not going to sugarcoat it.
Jayne Rowse (30:39):
We had some good times.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (30:40):
We had some good times.
Jayne Rowse (30:42):
We had some good times
Attorney General Dana Nessel (30:43):
We had some good times.
We had some good times, Boy,when they, you know, first of
all, when they use the phrasedon't make a federal case out of
it.
There's a reason for that, andyou know it really.
You talk about this being aroller coaster.
It truly was, but, like I said,none of this would have
happened, and none of it wouldhave happened in the way it did,
had not been for the courageof April and Jayne and their
family, and you know it's.
(31:05):
It was an unbelievableexperience and you guys were
quite literally the perfectplaintiffs.
April DeBoer (31:12):
Thank you.
Attorney General Kris Maye (31:16):
Well thank you both for joining us.
We really appreciate you.
Here's to Obergefell, the casethat should have been called
DeBoer.
Attorney General Dana Ne (31:21):
That's right, and happy early
anniversary to you guys.
April DeBoer (31:26):
Thank you.
Jayne Rowse (31:27):
Thanks, you too.
Attorney General Kris Ma (31:29):
Thanks for joining us.
The gentleman from Californiais recognized.
Mr Speaker, I rise today toenter the following words into
(31:51):
the congressional record nounion is more profound than
marriage, for it embodies thehighest ideals of love, fidelity
, devotion, sacrifice and family.
In forming a marital union, twopeople become something greater
than once they were.
As some of the petitioners inthese cases demonstrate,
marriage embodies a love thatmay endure even past death.
(32:12):
It would misunderstand thesemen and women to say they
disrespect the idea of marriage.
Their plea is that they dorespect it, respect it so deeply
that they seek to find itsfulfillment for themselves.
Their hope is not to becondemned to live in loneliness.
Excluded from one ofcivilization's oldest
institutions, they ask for equaldignity in the eyes of the law.
(32:34):
The Constitution grants themthat right.
The judgment of the Court ofAppeals for the Sixth Circuit is
reversed.
It is so ordered.
These words, M r.
Speaker, were written bySupreme Court Justice Anthony
Kennedy in his Obergefell versusHodges ruling, and they embody
what the LGBT community haspursued for decades equality
(32:54):
under the law.
Thank you, and I yield back thebalance of my time.
Gentleman yields back his time.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (33:16):
So this marks the end of our
special two-part Pride Monthseries here on Pantsuits and
Lawsuits.
We really appreciate you tuningin.
Attorney General Dana Ness (33:20):
Yeah , it has been great reminiscing
with everyone about how farwe've come in the last decade.
Up until very recent months anduntil next time this has been
AG Nessel.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (33:33):
And AG Mayes.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (33:34):
For Pantsuits and Lawsuits.
Signing off.
Hello and welcome back to the second
installment of our special PrideMonth retrospective celebrating
the 10-year anniversary ofObergefell v Hodges landmark
Supreme Court case, whichlegalized same-sex marriage and
adoption rights all across theUnited States.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (00:28):
I'm Michigan Attorney General Dana
Nessel.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (00:31):
And I'm Arizona Attorney General
Kris Mayes,
Attorney General Dana Nesse (00:34):
And if you, were not able to catch
part one of this rivetingepisode, we'd recommend pausing
now and listening to that onefirst.
Let's get started, and I willjust say this personally,
(00:54):
because this is the story ofApril and Jayne, but it's my
story too.
You know, I met my wife workingon this case.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (01:04):
I met her at a local library.
They were having a Democraticclub meeting which I had never
been to before.
It was my first Dem club meeting
and I was desperately- becausewe couldn't get funding to
support the litigation, whichhad become very expensive, and
it was hard for the attorneysourselves to have to eat all
those costs.
And so I started going to somedifferent Dem clubs, including
(01:25):
in my own hometown, where Ididn't even know they had a Dem
club and my mother-in-law wasthe president of the Dem club.
And I met her daughter, whobegan working on helping us
raise money and then puttogether a nonprofit to
subsidize the cost of the case.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (01:44):
Wow !
Attorney General Dana Ness (01:45):
Then she started working on the case
and became our project managerto put all the exhibits and
everything together for trialand the PowerPoint and all the
rest.
We got engaged.
I proposed to her on the stepsof the Supreme court, following
our argument, and then we got-
Attorney General Kris Ma (02:01):
You're kidding! Really following your
argument?
Wow!
Attorney General Dana Nes (02:04):
Right after the arguments, and I said
, if-
Attorney General Kris Ma (02:07):
That's so romantic!
Attorney General Dana Nesse (02:08):
Yes , if five of the nine justices
of this Supreme court agree,will you be applicant number two
on my application for amarriage license in the state of
Michigan.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (02:18):
Oh my God.
Attorney General Dana Ness (02:19):
Well , that was my proposal to her.
Attorney General Kris (02:21):
Literally , that was it?
Attorney General Dana Ness (02:23):
That was it.
She was very romantic, romantic, uh.
She accepted.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (02:27):
In a weird sort of way,
Attorney General Dana Nessel (02:43):
Hi , you guys, thank you so much
for uh joining us, and I knowit's been a little bit since
we've seen each other.
But, April and Jayne, this AGKris Mayes, from Arizona, and,
as you probably know, now wehave a podcast together and I'm
so excited that you guys couldjoin us today to talk about the
10-year anniversary ofObergefell, slash Deboer v.
(03:04):
Synder which is what it reallyshould be called.
Attorney General Kris May (03:09):
We've been talking, Dana and I have
been talking, and she gave methe full procedural history and
how it really should have beencalled something else.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (03:19):
Yes , Absolutely, and again, no
offense to him.
But in our household we referto Jim Obergefell as an accident
of history because we stillbelieve the case should be
called DeBoer v Snyder.
And I actually have a coffeemug from the Supreme Court that
has all the most impactful casesand I have it like duct taped
out and I have written DeBoer vSnyder over Obergefell.
Jayne Rowse (03:44):
That's great.
Attorney General Dana Ness (03:45):
Just just to back up, you guys have
five children together.
April DeBoer (03:48):
We do, yes.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (03:49):
Do you want to tell AG Mayes and
our listeners a little bit abouthow you guys formed your family
?
April DeBoer (03:56):
Oh sure.
So Jayne and I adopted all fiveof our children.
So initially Nolan came to usfirst, and here in the state of
Michigan we were not allowed toadopt the children together.
So Nolan was adopted initiallyby Jayne, and then we had Ryanne
(04:20):
come into our house and to ourlife and she initially was
adopted by me.
And then Jacob came and Jacobwas adopted again by Jayne
because I was still in theprocess of adopting Ryanne, and
so we had these three wonderfulchildren, and that's how it all
(04:44):
started.
And then we adopted two morechildren after.
The two of Rylee, was adoptedagain by me, and then Kennedy
came after the ruling and thedecision.
So she was the first and onlychild to be jointly adopted by
both of us.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (05:03):
And Kris, I'm sure it's not lost on
you the name of their youngestchild, named after Justice
Kennedy.
Attorney General Kris Maye (05:13):
Very interesting.
Okay good.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (05:16):
But again, and just important to
know, that April and Jayne, youguys had been together when you
first brought Nolan in.
For how many years had you guysbeen a couple?
April DeBoer (05:26):
Oh, that's totally you Jayne.
Jayne Rowse (05:29):
Let's see.
18.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (05:31):
Wow , about 18 years.
And both April and Jayne were,at the time, nurses in local
hospitals in Detroit and Jaynewas an emergency room nurse and
April was a NICU nurse, and theyhad both been qualified by the
state to be foster care parents.
(05:52):
So they were able to bringchildren into their homes as
foster care parents, and jointlyso, but not as adoptive parents
together, which was a weirdquirk of the law that we found
to be incredibly horrible.
So I'm just with thatbackground for everybody
April DeBoer (06:12):
Yeah for sure.
Attorney General Dana Ness (06:13):
With that you guys.
I wonder if you could juststart off by telling us a little
bit about that fateful day backin.
I believe it was 2011, I think,when we first spoke and talked
about the possibility ofbringing this federal lawsuit.
April DeBoer (06:29):
So, yeah, I think I had located you.
We had a near-miss accident,almost were killed in a car
accident, and the realizationhit that if something happened
to Jayne, that the boys wouldend up not having a parent and I
(06:51):
personally would have no legalright to either of the boys.
And then the realization that mymom, who is really the only I
shouldn't say just my mom, butmy family was really the only
family that the kids had knownbecause we lived in Michigan,
and Jayne's family's fromIndiana.
(07:11):
And then it was the realizationthat Nolan, had he survived,
would have been going tosomebody that he didn't know
really at all, because theywould have the next legal right
to Nolan, and that just didn'tsit well with us.
And we had been seeing a bunchof advertisements and
(07:32):
information about Dana wantingto do some second documentation
for wills and all of that inchild custody for gays and
lesbians who found themselves inthis situation.
So I reached out to her and I'mlike, "what can we do?
And her comment was "well, wecan get this all on paper, but
(07:55):
it's only going to be worth thepaper that it's written on,
because the judges can make anydecision that they want" based
on us having no legal right toour kids, and so we went from
there to well, what else can wedo?
Jayne Rowse (08:11):
And Dana had the great plan up her sleeve.
Attorney General Kris Maye (08:22):
Tell me about that great plan and
what it was like to work withher, and did she prepare you at
all or steel you for what wasahead, what was going to be this
, what must have been a rollercoaster of a ride and, at the
end of the day, literally makingAmerican history.
Like what was that like workingwith her?
(08:43):
I'm just curious.
Jayne Rowse (08:46):
Nobody anticipated where it was going to go, that's
for sure.
Attorney General Kris M (08:50):
Really,
Jayne Rowse (08:51):
No.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (08:52):
Did she tell you?
But she just told me that shehad a feeling deep down that
this thing was going to go allthe way.
Jayne Rowse (08:59):
She didn't share, that we didn't know it was going
to switch to marriage.
That was, I think that was thebig thing, was you know?
We had hoped that adoptionwould have been the key, because
that was something everybodycould get behind.
But when you know, JudgeFriedman said, well, this is a
gay marriage case, we were like,oh no, that's not what this is,
(09:20):
and that was, that was thepivotal point in all this that
everybody went, oh no, what dowe do now?
Attorney General Dana Nessel (09:28):
We were initially challenging the
the adoption code in Michiganthat didn't allow for people who
weren't married to be able toadopt jointly.
And when we had cross motionsfor summary judgment before our
district court judge in theEastern District of Michigan, he
surprised all of us by notgranting either of the motions
(09:51):
for summary and by saying Ithink you have to amend your
pleadings.
This is not an adoption case,this is a marriage case.
You have to challenge theMichigan marriage amendment
which doesn't allow you to getmarried in the first place,
because you wouldn't have toworry about the adoption code
saying that you had to be amarried couple if only you could
get married.
So really you should justchallenge the marriage ban.
(10:13):
And that threw all of us for alittle bit of a loop, I thought
I think is a mild way to put it.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (10:21):
So, so so you end up in this case
case it's it's taking thesetwists and these turns and, as
Dana has described earlier, uh,in the podcast, you, you all end
up really kind of getting umswept into this um case that
ends up at the Supreme Court.
I mean, I don't mean to cut tothe chase or anything, but what
(10:43):
was that like?
And then tell me what it waslike when, on the day that you
that you won the case or foundout that you'd won the case.
The way to get to the SupremeCourt, or when we got there?
Attorney General Kris Maye (10:59):
Both .
Both, especially when you gotthere, but both what was, what
was, what was both like?
Jayne Rowse (11:06):
I think getting there was.
You know it's going to soundcrazy, but it wasn't hard, it
was going, you know, goingthrough things.
But once we really explainedwhy we were doing what we were
doing, most people understood.
They realized that we weren'treally out for marriage per se,
(11:27):
but it was to protect the kids.
Attorney General Kris Maye (11:29):
Yeah .
Jayne Rowse (11:29):
Once that was explained, people were like,
okay, I can see why you're doingthis.
Yeah, um, once we got to theSupreme Court, wow, what a
feeling that was.
That was crazy.
Like nothing I'd ever seenthere was.
You know, there was just a seaof people and the Michigan
contingent was huge.
Like, what we brought wasincredible.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (11:53):
So you were there the day of the
arguments?
Jayne Rowse (11:57):
Yes, we were in the court the day of the arguments
Attorney General Kris Mayes (12:00):
Wow , what did that feel like?
What was that like?
April DeBoer (12:04):
Well, I think, um, my, the scariest moment of that
whole thing was how theybrought us into the Supreme
Court.
They walked us through thecrowd.
It was a little scary, but itwas just a sense of awe, like
how did we get here?
(12:25):
I mean, like we're just twoparents who want our kids to
have safeties, how are we in theSupreme Court?
It was just crazy.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (12:42):
I guess let me ask this question
to all three of you.
What was when you werelistening to the oral argument?
What were your thoughts?
And, Dana, like, what were youthinking?
How did you feel?
Like it was going in the moment?
Obviously, it ended up goingwell.
But-
Attorney General Dana Ness (12:57):
Yeah , I mean, the thing was it was
so hard to tell.
You know, as you wouldanticipate, the questions that
were asked by Justice Kagan weresemi- predictable by, you know,
Justice Ginsburg Also.
The questions that Alito askedwere not very favorable, as you
would anticipate.
(13:17):
But it was Kennedy that Icouldn't tell which way he was
going to go.
And here we knew that theentire case was predicated on
what Kennedy was going to domost likely.
I kind of hoped maybe there wasa chance with Roberts, but that
was an outside chance.
But it was Kennedy that we werecounting on and the way he was,
you know, positioning hisquestions I couldn't tell one
(13:39):
way or the other.
And it was the first time Ithought my God, are we going to
lose this case?
Because I don't know what youguys thought, but I wasn't sure
from some of the questions thathe asked.
Justice Anthony Kennedy (13:50):
You said that.
Well, marriage is differentbecause it's controlled by the
government.
But from a historical, from ananthropological standpoint,
Justice Scalia was very carefulto talk about societies.
Justice Alito talked aboutcultures.
If you read about the Kalaharipeople or ancient peoples, they
(14:11):
didn't have a government thatmade this Well, they made it
themselves, and it was man orwoman.
Part of what you see, I suppose,is to ascertain whether the
social science, the new studies,are accurate, but that it seems
to me then that we should notconsult at all the social
(14:38):
science on this because it's toonew.
You say we don't need to waitfor changes.
So it seems to me that if we'renot going to wait, then it's
only fair for us to say well,we're not going to consult
social science.
Justice Alito's question pointsout the assumption of his
hypothetical and the way thesecases are presented is that the
(15:03):
state does have a sufficientinterest so that it need not
allow the marriages in thatstate.
So there is a sufficientinterest under our arguendo
assumption here to say that thisis not a fundamental right.
But then, suddenly, if you'reout of state, why should the
(15:25):
state have to yield?
Jayne Rowse (15:31):
I thought the questions were crazy.
Yeah, the questions.
We were just like where are wegoing with this?
Because to me some of themdidn't line up with what the
case was all about.
They were going down thisrabbit hole of weird questions.
April DeBoer (15:47):
I think we left just not not knowing, like if
there was a bigger questionafter we left than before we
went in.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (15:56):
S o then the big day happens.
Well, tell me about where youwere when, when it happened, and
what, what you, what wentthrough your minds when the
decision was read.
Jayne Rowse (16:10):
Well, every day we waited for if the case was going
to be put up that day, andevery day it was like, oh, and
it got down to Friday, and itwas either Friday or Monday when
it was, it had to come out.
And I we had plans every day tobe in Ann Arbor.
So we were at the Jim ToyCenter in Ann Arbor
(16:34):
and waiting, yeah, hoping, hoping it was going to
come out, because there werejust hundreds and hundreds of
people waiting.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (16:42):
And media press from all across the
world.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (16:46):
Wow .
You were all together?
Jayne Rowse (16:49):
When it popped up we were all together.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (16:51):
Ok
Jayne Rowse (16:52):
Yeah, we were.
We were all on our edge of ourseats waiting to see if it was
going to pop up.
So when it did, then everybodyreally leaned in and waited to
hear what was going to be said,and I think it was Alana that
actually read it, and then Carolwas right behind her and it was
like, and then it was likequiet and then celebration.
Attorney General Dana Ness (17:14):
Yeah , I mean nobody wants to be
wrong because you're in realtime, You're reading it, while
you have all these members ofthe press that are reading it
and you know nobody wants to belike, oh, that that's the wrong
interpretation of what they justsaid of this summary, but it's
so.
It took us a second or twobefore we all jumped up and just
(17:35):
I mean tears of joy, yes and so, and just I mean tears of joy.
Jayne Rowse (17:50):
I think it was like "we won.
I think we won.
Wait, we won.
It was just, you know, jumpingaround and hugging and tears.
April DeBoer (18:02):
And my kids were actually in a summer camp of
sorts and so my mom had takenthem over there and so somebody
had the television runninginside the building and my mom
said it was the cutest thing shesays all of a sudden she heard
there.
And my mom said it was thecutest thing she says all of a
sudden she heard "there's my mom.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (18:25):
So so what was the immediate?
So you have this incrediblemoment of euphoria over this
decision.
What was the immediatepractical effect of the decision
?
Attorney General Dana Ness (18:39):
They had to plan a wedding,
Jayne Rowse (18:43):
No we had to go out and watch weddings.
married like crazy.
It was great!
April DeBoer (18:54):
I think we, we signed a couple of uh wedding
certificates, I believe aswitnesses.
Jayne Rowse (18:59):
Yeah we did.
Attorney General Dana Ness (18:59):
Yeah you guys did,
Attorney General Kris Mayes (19:05):
But there were- you ultimately
achieved what you set out toachieve.
April DeBoer (19:10):
Correct.
If it weren't for the group ofattorneys that we had, I don't
think we would have made itwhere we were.
But yeah, we got what we wantedand what my kids needed, and
that's really the bottom line.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (19:31):
You know you mentioned something I
don't know if it was you, Jayne,or April.
You mentioned that that people,um, when you, when you talk to
people about, uh, the practicalimplications of being able to
adopt and and get married, theystarted to get it, they started
to support what you were doing.
Um, I guess, and and I guess myquestion is um.
(19:56):
So what's the reaction?
You know we're coming up on 10years, the 10-year anniversary
of this decision.
Has that support only grown, doyou feel like, since the
decision?
Obviously one of the reasonswe're doing this podcast is
that- not only to celebrate thedecision but also there's been
rumblings that the Supreme Courtmight overturn it.
(20:25):
We've had some reallydisturbing comments by at least
one, if not more, of the SupremeCourt justices about
potentially overturning it.
How do people react now?
I haven't had any negatives.
I don't know about you, I mean,everybody just seems to be like
had any negatives?
I don't.
I don't know about you.
I mean, everybody just seems tobe like oh, they're married,
(20:45):
okay, life goes on, there's nodifference.
I haven't heard any negative.
April DeBoer (20:52):
I haven't either.
We, we have not been approachedby anybody.
There's been really no negativemedia.
No, not on our end anyway.
But again, we kind of fadedinto the background because you
know, we did our work and
Attorney General Kris Mayes (21:09):
Yes , you did.
April DeBoer (21:17):
We retired.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (21:17):
But I will say this I think that
April and Jayne being who theyare and their family being who
they were, and them openingthemselves up the way that you
have to when you are theplaintiffs in a massive case, as
this one was, you know, I knowit took a toll on them and their
family, but for us, you know,for me, working on the case, I
wanted the entire world to getto know April and Jayne and
(21:39):
their kids, because I knew thatto know them is to love them and
to understand that if you knowthis family, you can't otherize
them.
They are just like you.
They are your friends, they areyour neighbors, they're the.
These are the people you go towhen you have a sick family
member and you you have.
You go to the hospital or youknow this is.
These are parents who are onyour kid's field trip.
(22:01):
You know a chaperones with you.
They're exactly like you andthey just want to be treated
exactly the same.
No better, no, not inferior.
They just want to be treatedthe same as all other couples
and all other families.
And that's what April and Jaynedid is they brought that to
everybody and they know thatthere was not a camera that they
(22:23):
shied away from or a microphone, when I had shoved it in front
of them and said you know, makesure you're presenting your case
.
I mean, I can't do this and theother lawyers can't do this the
way that you can, to beadvocates for yourself, to show
the whole world that you're justregular people and you're just
a family that wants to berecognized as a legal family
(22:43):
with legal rights, like allother families are.
And they did just such aphenomenal job in that.
So, yes, I'd like to think thatthe lawyers on the case made
very good arguments andpresented good evidence, but it
was them as a family.
I think that ultimately led tothe success of this case.
That ultimately led to thesuccess of this case because,
whether we want to believe it ornot, I think that the Supreme
(23:05):
Court does pay attention topublic opinion.
I think it does matter.
And I think that they were aninstrumental part themselves,
with many other families acrossthe United States stepping
forward and saying, instead ofhiding in the shadows, saying we
are a family too and we deserveto have these rights.
(23:26):
And they subjected themselvesto a lot in terms of the time,
the energy, the effort and alsoyou know it's a scary thing to
put yourself out there publiclylike that, but they were champs
and they never said no to any ofthat stuff and I think they
understood their place inhistory and they stepped up, and
(23:46):
but not for this.
You know normally a lot ofthese groups.
You know the ACLU or, or youknow you know Lambda Legal or
all these other groups.
You know they spend so muchtime like selecting their
plaintiffs right and making surethat they have people that will
present best to the courts.
(24:08):
And you know we didn't do anyof that.
Just April and Jayne called meup one day and I heard their
story and I was so moved by it.
I just knew that that they werethe ones to really move the
ball forward and they were suchchamps.
I can't believe that you guyssaid yes first of all, and it
(24:28):
was a very difficult three and ahalf years or so.
I mean, it was not easy on them, it was not easier on their
families, but they dideverything that was asked of
them and I think they were a bigpart of this win, as well as
many other factors thatcoalesced at the same time, so
they deserve a lot of credit forthis.
Attorney General Kris Maye (24:54):
This is a very organic story, which
is really interesting, Dana, andhow your case came about.
During that three and a halfyears, I guess my question for
both of you, April and Jayne, isdid you ever feel like at any
point, I can't do this?
This is too much.
Dana has got me in way over myhead Because she's right.
(25:17):
It's one thing for Dana and Iwe love doing television, right,
Dana?
But it's another thing to askyou guys who are trying to raise
multiple kiddos with full-time,really, really hard jobs to go
out there and do this and be thelead plaintiffs in a case like
(25:37):
this.
April DeBoer (25:39):
Were there times that we looked at each other and
said have we lost our minds?
Of course there were times.
But you go back home and youstare at those three, four, five
tiny faces and you know.
You know you're doing the rightthing.
No, any parent, any mother, isgoing to do anything that they
(26:02):
can to protect their child andthat's all we were doing.
You know.
I think at some point in timethey tried to change the idea of
the court case.
When they changed it tomarriage, we were asked by some
outside groups to focus on Jayneand I, and when we did that, it
wasn't natural because thiswasn't about Jayne and I.
(26:25):
Jayne and I knew what we weregetting ourselves into.
We knew when we got married andhad our commitment ceremony, we
knew what we were looking into.
I don't think when we startedadopting kids that we realized
what we were getting them intoand it wasn't fair.
So we were going to do anythingwe could to make sure that they
(26:47):
were safe.
Attorney General Dana Ness (26:48):
Yeah , and I mean just all of the
hundreds of thousands offamilies now that have rights
that they sort of take forgranted, not knowing what it was
like to live during a timeperiod where they didn't have
those rights.
And again, it's only been 10years, it's not like this is
something that happened 50 yearsago or 70 years ago or 100
years ago.
(27:09):
But I think that the collectivememory, especially for younger
generations, of what it was liketo not have the same rights and
you know, as your neighbors, asall the other families that you
know, I mean, I think that'sbeen sort of lost in many ways,
because we did make a lot ofprogress very, very quickly, and
I think it's only now thatpeople are starting to
(27:30):
appreciate that all of that canbe taken away just as quickly as
it came about in the firstplace.
April DeBoer (27:37):
Yes, we were asked a question as to how are we
going to celebrate the 10 yearanniversary, and the only thing
I could think of was I don'tknow that I can celebrate it.
Yes, we're happy we're here,but it just takes a moment for
us to lose all of this.
And and how do you celebratethat?
Attorney General Kris May (28:08):
Dana, behind her has a picture of
herself arguing your case.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (28:12):
And there's you guys!
Attorney General Kris May (28:14):
There you are.
Jayne Rowse (28:15):
Oh there we are.
Attorney General Dana Ness (28:16):
Yeah , we all looked like 40 years
younger, I think at that time.
Jayne Rowse (28:22):
That's not my drawing, Dana.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (28:26):
No , she, during the course of the
trial.
Jayne is actually a very goodartist, by the way.
I have your drawings.
Here's the funny part, ofcourse, is that you know who do
we try this case against?
But the Department of AttorneyGeneral, and so all of our
opposing counsel, all thoselawyers now work for me, and so
(28:46):
Jayne, you know, would sketchlike hilarious little cartoons
of them.
But it is why- I mean it's oneof those things like talk about
ironies the fact that I was tosucceed that Attorney General
that fought us so hard on thatcase and came up with those t
horrifically creative argumentsas to why, you know, same-sex
(29:07):
couples weren't good enough toget married, why we couldn't.
You know why same-sex couplescouldn't appreciate the sanctity
of marriage, or why ourchildren were destined to all go
to prison, which was an actualargument that
they made.
And to know that by people likeyou and I serving in these
roles, we can ensure that ourstate tax dollars are used to
(29:27):
protect our state residentsinstead of to discriminate
against them.
And I think that's sort of
an interesting point.
Now too, and Ialways tell the story of like,
downstairs in the lobby, rightin front of my predecessor's
portrait down, there is a prideflag, which I'm sure if he ever
comes back to the Department ofAttorney General, he will really
(29:47):
appreciate the placement ofthat particular flag.
It matters having people inthese critical offices that care
about people's constitutionalrights and want to make their
lives better, not worse.
Attorney General Kris Maye (30:01):
Yeah , yeah, exactly, and it matters
that we have folks like both ofyou who are willing to stand up
for what's right, to stand upfor your families as April
pointed out, because that's whatwhat this is about and to stand
up for fundamental right.
Thank you both for everythingthat you did for our country.
(30:24):
You're both patriots as far asI'm concerned, and I am a little
jealous because you got to hangout with Dana in a court case
for three and a half years.
Attorney General Dana Ne (30:37):
Listen , I'm not going to sugarcoat it.
Jayne Rowse (30:39):
We had some good times.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (30:40):
We had some good times.
Jayne Rowse (30:42):
We had some good times
Attorney General Dana Nessel (30:43):
We had some good times.
We had some good times, Boy,when they, you know, first of
all, when they use the phrasedon't make a federal case out of
it.
There's a reason for that, andyou know it really.
You talk about this being aroller coaster.
It truly was, but, like I said,none of this would have
happened, and none of it wouldhave happened in the way it did,
had not been for the courageof April and Jayne and their
family, and you know it's.
(31:05):
It was an unbelievableexperience and you guys were
quite literally the perfectplaintiffs.
April DeBoer (31:12):
Thank you.
Attorney General Kris Maye (31:16):
Well thank you both for joining us.
We really appreciate you.
Here's to Obergefell, the casethat should have been called
DeBoer.
Attorney General Dana Ne (31:21):
That's right, and happy early
anniversary to you guys.
April DeBoer (31:26):
Thank you.
Jayne Rowse (31:27):
Thanks, you too.
Attorney General Kris Ma (31:29):
Thanks for joining us.
The gentleman from Californiais recognized.
Mr Speaker, I rise today toenter the following words into
(31:51):
the congressional record nounion is more profound than
marriage, for it embodies thehighest ideals of love, fidelity
, devotion, sacrifice and family.
In forming a marital union, twopeople become something greater
than once they were.
As some of the petitioners inthese cases demonstrate,
marriage embodies a love thatmay endure even past death.
(32:12):
It would misunderstand thesemen and women to say they
disrespect the idea of marriage.
Their plea is that they dorespect it, respect it so deeply
that they seek to find itsfulfillment for themselves.
Their hope is not to becondemned to live in loneliness.
Excluded from one ofcivilization's oldest
institutions, they ask for equaldignity in the eyes of the law.
(32:34):
The Constitution grants themthat right.
The judgment of the Court ofAppeals for the Sixth Circuit is
reversed.
It is so ordered.
These words, M r.
Speaker, were written bySupreme Court Justice Anthony
Kennedy in his Obergefell versusHodges ruling, and they embody
what the LGBT community haspursued for decades equality
(32:54):
under the law.
Thank you, and I yield back thebalance of my time.
Gentleman yields back his time.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (33:16):
So this marks the end of our
special two-part Pride Monthseries here on Pantsuits and
Lawsuits.
We really appreciate you tuningin.
Attorney General Dana Ness (33:20):
Yeah , it has been great reminiscing
with everyone about how farwe've come in the last decade.
Up until very recent months anduntil next time this has been
AG Nessel.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (33:33):
And AG Mayes.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (33:34):
For Pantsuits and Lawsuits.
Signing off.
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