April 25, 2025 • 31 mins
The foundation of reproductive freedom in America continues to crumble beneath our feet, leaving millions without access to essential healthcare. Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel sits down with Alexis McGill Johnson, President and CEO of Planned Parenthood Federation of America, for a sobering exploration of the post-Dobbs landscape.
McGill Johnson reveals the coordinated, multi-pronged attack against reproductive healthcare access happening right now. From Title X funding cuts targeting Planned Parenthood to Supreme Court challenges that could strip Medicaid patients of their provider choices, we're witnessing a systematic dismantling of the healthcare infrastructure that millions rely upon. With 22 states now operating under abortion bans, one in three American women of reproductive age lives without access to complete healthcare.
The consequences are both immediate and far-reaching. Doctors are fleeing states with abortion bans, creating dangerous healthcare deserts. Women with pregnancy complications face delayed care until they develop life-threatening sepsis. Young families are making permanent reproductive decisions out of fear.
Join us for this critical conversation about what's at stake and how you can fight back through ballot initiatives, community organizing, and supporting Planned Parenthood's frontline work. Because as McGill Johnson powerfully reminds us: abortion is healthcare, bodily autonomy is essential to freedom, and none of us are truly free until all of us are free.
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Episode Transcript
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Attorney General Dana Nessel (00:05):
Hi everyone and welcome back to
another episode of Pantsuits andLawsuits, your one-stop shop to
learn about the latest legalbattles impacting American
communities, from sea to shiningsea.
So thanks for tuning in.
(00:29):
So thanks for tuning in.
Now, unfortunately, Arizona areGeneral Kris Mayes arizona
Attorney General Chris Mays thisweek, but not to worry, we're
going to take a break from theongoing discussion of lawless
executive orders and morallybankrupt billionaires to talk
about something else home (00:39):
that hits very close to home your
right to bodily autonomy.
And in just a little bit I'mgoing to be talking to Alexis
McGill Johnson.
She's the president and CEO ofPlanned Parenthood Federation of
America and we're goingto break some things down.
But first a little bit ofbackground.
You probably remember that thedebate over reproductive freedom
(01:07):
was really catapulted to theforefront of public discourse
back in May of 2022, when theUnited States Supreme Court
decision in Dobbs v JacksonWomen's Health Organization
overturned Roe v Wade, healthorganization overturned Roe v
Wade, and that As of chaos andutter confusion.
(01:31):
Doctors, patients and theirfamilies were scrambling all
across the country to decipherwhat the erasure of half a
century's precedent protectingreproductive freedom would mean
for their health and livelihood.
And here in Michigan,immediately following the Dobbs
decision, my department was ableto secure a preliminary
(01:53):
injunction against the state'sarchaic 1931 abortion ban that
prevented AG physicians Mayesand their patients from being
prosecuted for engaging in whatis often a life-saving medical
procedure.
That abortion ban would havesprang back into effect
immediately as soon as Dobbsofficially had been rendered by
(02:17):
the Supreme Court.
So meanwhile, the residents ofour state were busy gathering
signatures for the ReproductiveFreedom for All ballot petition,
in anticipation that Roe mightbe overturned.
So what we did is we gatheredover 750,000 signatures for this
(02:37):
ballot proposal.
It was the most that we've everseen for any ballot proposal in
Michigan history.
And then Michiganders showed upon election day to make their
voices heard.
And all of America was watchingas we codified the protections
of Roe into our Michigan StateConstitution, impacting over 2.2
(02:59):
million women of reproductiveage in Michigan and, of course,
their loved ones, their families.
So the Michigan statelegislature, since that time,
has repealed the ban andenshrined new rights to legalize
surrogacy, safeguard our healthdata and also to protect IVF.
(03:20):
But rather than respecting thechoices made by individual
states, anti-choice groups havecontinued to mount targeted
legal challenges with theexpress purpose of chipping away
at Americans' remaining rightsto bodily autonomy, and that's
all the way from abortion to IVF, birth control and even the
(03:41):
ability for a person to managetheir own miscarriage.
Birth control and even theability for a person to manage
their own miscarriage as ofright now, Alexis one welcome,
so American much, women ofchildbearing age lives in a
state with an abortion ban stillon the books.
That's 22 states, and some ofthe ongoing litigation at the
federal level could make it evenmore difficult for the
remaining two-thirds of thecountry to access the health
(04:04):
care that they need for theirfuture.
So myself, ag Mays and manyother leaders across the nation
have made our stance clear.
Everyone, no matter who theyare, no matter where they live,
how much money they make,everyone deserves access to
supportive, high-quality,affordable health care to live
(04:27):
full, healthy lives.
(04:49):
Well, and we welcome to thepodcast today Alexis
McGill-Johnson, the Presidentand CEO of Planned Parenthood
Federation of America, thecountry's most trusted name in
sexual and reproductive healthand education.
As a lot of people know,planned Parenthood health
centers provide vital healthcare to more than 2 million
people each year at nearly 600health care centers around the
(05:09):
country.
We could go on for quite awhile.
But, alexis, welcome.
So much to the podcast.
Thank you so much for talkingto us today about so many
critical issues that you arefacing.
What a challenging time for youto be in this job.
Alexis McGill Johnson (05:31):
You know you don't come to Planned
Parenthood by accident.
You come here because you lovethe mission and you love the
fight and you believe in thefight, and so it's been an
incredibly challenging time, butyou know all about that and all
the fighting that you're doingin the great state of Michigan.
So I'm happy to be on thepodcast and happy to be here
with you.
in Peninsual in
Attorney General Dana Ness (05:44):
Yeah Well, so tell us a little bit
about some of the most recentevents that have been going on,
I think I mean, obviously it'sbeen one thing after the next,
after the next, but I know thatyou know there's been a case
that was just argued recentlybefore the United States Supreme
Court We'd like to hear moreabout.
And I will say anecdotally herein Michigan we just found out
(06:11):
that we're losing four to, youParenthood centers all the way
from the Upper Peninsula andMarquette down to Ann Arbor.
And you know if you could talka little bit about some of the
challenges that you're facing,not just legally but financially
as well?
X
Alexis McGill Johnson (06:21):
Yeah, I mean, look.
So Planned Parenthood is underattack from all sides.
Right now we have.
And administration Parenthood,has again through Medicaid
executive action, withheldfunding for Title X for several
Planned Parenthood affiliatesunder the premise that we are
violating their DEI actionnothing to do with reproductive
(06:42):
health care, but violating DEIand related to the provision of
services for undocumentedpatients.
And the reality is this is, youknow, again a political agenda
to.
You know, to find ways Governorto, you know, basic health care
(07:03):
, sti testing.
You know, access to birthcontrol, access to breast exams,
and I can't think of anythingmore outrageous than that.
But, yes, the Title 10 impact,which is the nation's largest
family planning grant program.
You know, not having access tothose resources for affiliates
who rely on them and for thecommunities means that it will
(07:25):
impact the number of healthcenters that will be able to
stay open in those communitiesand provide that.
You know, planned Parenthood isa critical part of the public
health infrastructure, literallya health system that
strengthens the public healthinfrastructure.
And, you know, without thepublic dollars to reimburse for
those services provided by ourPlanned Parenthood health
(07:46):
centers, it makes it hard togauge.
We also have a congressionalfight, as you know, related to
Medicaid and attempts to gutthat program and Planned
Parenthood.
Again, medicaid, as the largestinsurer for low-income
communities, could lose upwardsof $700 million and related to
(08:07):
the Medicaid is in the SupremeCourt.
The case that you referenced,that is the case that's called
Medina v Planned Parenthood ofSouth Atlantic, and this is
another example of a politiciantrying to weaponize the judicial
system to shut PlannedParenthood down.
To weaponize the judicialsystem to shut Planned
Parenthood down, governorMcMaster, the governor of South
(08:27):
Carolina, wants to challengewhether or not deny patients in
South Carolina from choosingPlanned Parenthood as their
provider if they are on Medicaid.
So we went to the Supreme Courtjust last week for those oral
arguments and, as you know, wealso have 3,000 people on the
steps fighting back because theysee that this is just yet
(08:48):
another attack to shut downPlanned Parenthood because we
provide abortion and the peopleare also not standing with that.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (08:54):
But with that, can you tell us a
little bit about?
You know we had some reallysignificant cases that went up
to the court in the last termand ultimately, whether it was
decided that they wereimprovidently granted or whether
there were standing issues, wedidn't get a final resolution on
some really important cases.
So what kind of felt like atemporary win isn't necessarily
(09:20):
going to be a win in the longrun on some of these issues, and
I wonder if you could speakabout some of those cases and
what concerns you have movingforward on cases we're likely
(10:06):
the limitations reemerge.
mifepristone
Alexis McGill Johnson (09:30):
It does feel like I think to your point
that some of the cases thatyou're thinking about, like the
EMTALA case, right, kind ofbeing pushed back down, you know
, and the impact of that onpatients who now have to be
again airlifted out of stateslike Idaho in order to get
access to life-saving careliterally life-saving care, I
(09:51):
think is a good example of howthis court is going to be in
partnership with theadministration, as opposed to an
independent reviewer havingreal independent judicial review
.
We are looking to the ComstockAct, right, we're looking that
for the limitations of myth ofPristone that we expect to see
with this administration and ofcourse we'll be, you know,
(10:12):
fighting against that, whetheror not you know you were allowed
to get abortion medicationthrough the mail or any other
things that are required toprovide an abortion service, and
that, again, I think, is goingto be the kind of thing that we
are going to be seeing.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (10:39):
I think one of the things that
people in my state didn'tappreciate right, I mean, here
we have a state overwhelminglythat voted in favor of
Proposition 3 in 2022,reproductive freedom for all.
So that had to do, of course,not with just abortion rights
states (11:57):
in Roe, but also with birth control and fertility
treatments and the ability tomanage one's miscarriage.
I think that people in my statehonestly, like did not
appreciate that you can't votefor Prop 3 and just think you're
in the clear and now we're finein states like ours, because
once you start to delve intoissues like you know abortion
medication, for instance that'swhat over half of all abortions
in the state of Michigan, and soif you start to outlaw, say,
abortion medication throughvarious different means, that's
going to affect us too, becauseit's not really reproductive
freedom for all, you know, ifyou can't get access to the
medication that you're utilizingfor, again, not just abortions
but also miscarriages.
Alexis McGill Johnso (11:45):
Absolutely , and I you know, look, I think,
if they're coming at every,every lever and they know where
the people are right, I think,to your point on the proposition
in Michigan, which is, as yousaw, you know, in each of these
states and purple states and redstates and, of course, blue
states, you see that this is aactually nonpartisan issue.
You know, in the same way, thatPlanned Parenthood is
(12:07):
nonpartisan because we seeeverybody in rural areas, as you
talked about, in urban areas,across party, across demographic
and geography, right, and so Ido think that they know it is
unpopular.
So they're trying to identifyall of these other ways to
restrict access and I think thatwe're going to continue to see
fetal more like new and novelways to approach their political
(12:28):
project, which is essentiallyto shut down access to
reproductive care and not justabortion right, access to
contraception, access to genderaffirming treatment.
We will see, I'm sure, fightsgoing up through these courts
and through this kind ofweaponized judicial system
around personhood, feelpersonhood, and it will come
both from IVF and access toabortion.
(12:50):
We are going to see, and haveseen, attempts to try to
restrict access to patientscrossing state lines, starting
with minors, right, becausethat's the strategy to starting
with, like, we want to protectour children from crossing state
lines to get access to abortionor to gender affirming care,
and then using that to build upa case law around restricting
(13:12):
access.
Overall, we are going to seemore criminalization, right, I
mean, and I'm curious how youand your colleagues are feeling
in this moment about the kind ofcriminalization of providers
right, we have a state trying toextradite a doctor from another
state for providing.
.
.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (13:31):
My colleague, Letitia James from
New York has been very vocalabout that of course you know,
and it's very scary, you know,but I mean that's why you know
the importance not just, ofcourse, of having Democratic AGs
but also Democratic governors.
Alexis McGill Johnson (13:43):
Yes
Attorney General Dana N (13:43):
Because ultimately they have the final
say as to whether or not they'regoing to allow a person to be
extradited for prosecution fromone state to another state.
Is what we're seeing here witha physician from New York, right
?
Alexis McGill Johnson (13:56):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I mean,
look, I totally agree, and Ithink our governors are a
backstop in a lot of ways,particularly with supporting and
resourcing in a moment when weare so desperately fighting for
every dollar to care forpatients, and I think this is
really critically important.
But I also do want to justshout out the AGs, though,
because you know you are such amuch needed backstop.
(14:17):
You don't have the sameconstraints as other bodies and
you know you're.
You can help explain the law orenforce the law, and and I
think those levers are reallyimportant in in what feels like
(14:43):
a really lawless time.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (14:44):
So, Alexis, I have a question and I
know nobody probably has acertain answer for this, but one
of the things, I think, duringthe presidential campaign that
Kamala Harris tried toaccentuate and she highlighted
the stories from the states thathad abortion bans of women and
sometimes girls who either hadbeen impregnated through rape or
incest.
What we saw a lot and we'recontinuing to see or are women
who are not able to properlymanage a miscarriage and being
(15:08):
put in this situation wherethey're literally have to get
sepsis and be on the brink ofdeath before they are permitted
to abort a pregnancy that youknow, frankly, is is never going
to come to term.
So, you're, it's not going toresult in a live birth to begin
with, but you're, you're riskingthe life of the woman who's
pregnant, who's carrying thechild, and we know statistically
(15:32):
that women are dying or comingto the cusp of dying or losing,
sometimes the ability to befertile at all after that.
And we've heard these storiesover and over again and I know
that now that they're sort oftrying to bury a lot of
scientific information throughDHHS and everything, it's harder
and harder to get those numbers.
(15:54):
But the numbers of women thatwere suffering from sepsis in
Texas was so alarming to me andI guess the question that I have
and I don't know if you have ananswer for it or not, but this
affects Republican women just asmuch as it affects women who
are Democrats or independents orthird party or what have you.
(16:15):
It doesn't make any sense to me.
I mean, it literally is healthcare, and I know that that
Republican women go through thistoo.
So can you explain it?
Do you have any understandingof this?
Alexis McGill Johnson (16:27):
I mean you're absolutely right.
And first of all, women havedied right, we know some names
of women who've lost their livesbecause they could not get
critical, life-saving,time-sensitive care, because
they were sent home or told towait until it got worse, or
because the hospitaladministrators and lawyers had
(16:48):
to debate what time was theright time to intervene.
And I think that is incrediblyalarming and it does obviously
impact people on both sides.
Right, it does impactRepublican women and, as I said,
the majority of people actuallysupport reproductive freedom.
Making it make sense is aboutunderstanding how the opposition
(17:10):
has literally weaponized thekind of rules change and
gerrymandered themselves intopower so that they can stay in
office and engage in thesehorrific abortion bans without
any accountability to theirconstituents.
So, majority of people in Texas, they do not like these bans
(17:37):
right, we know that.
And we know that they're alsobeing harmed across the board
because OBGYNs don't want tomove into Texas and practice
high risk maternal care.
We are seeing a decline ofdoctors wanting to move and
practice in banned states and inreverse migration out because
they don't want to becriminalized for the care that
they've been trained to provideand questioned about their
medical decisions to providepatients with the best care.
(17:59):
That is going to have a rippleeffect in a state, in a
community, an economy, when youdon't have enough medical
providers to provide basicpregnancy and miscarriage care.
And I think that was one of theshifts right during the
election, when we had thesestories around how abortion bans
have made pregnancy moredangerous, and I think that
really did bring a lot of peopletogether and it's how we won
(18:21):
many ballot initiatives becausethat happened.
Attorney General Dana Ness (18:24):
Yeah , and anecdotally, I just know
so many couples of childbearingage where, whether it's the man
or the woman in the relationship, they're just deciding to not
have children at all becausethey're so afraid of literally
dying during pregnancy, and so,of course, they're having
(18:44):
medical procedures to ensurethat they can't get pregnant and
they can't impregnate theirpartners, procedures to ensure
that they can't get pregnant andthey can't impregnate their
partners, and so, you know, it'skind of having the I would say
the opposite impact that I thinksome people thought that we
would have, not to mention, ofcourse, the increased rates of
maternal mortality and infantmortality that we're seeing as a
(19:04):
result of this as well.
Alexis McGill Johnson (19:06):
Yeah, yeah, you know, at Planned
Parenthood we saw a 1200%increase in vasectomies.
Like right after that arepeople are making decisions.
They are worried about becomingpregnant in a banned state and
getting that care.
Those who are pregnant areworried about traveling to those
states to get care.
And you know, I had a boardmember who was traveling in
(19:29):
Texas and was experiencing somesymptoms and called her doctor
and doctors to get on a plane.
I would rather see you herethan than have you see a
provider in Texas.
So it is going to affect allkinds of choices in this regard.
Attorney General Dana Ness (20:01):
What can people do?
You know, I know this is thequestion that I get all the time
and you must get thisconstantly.
You know, in order to protectour health care and in order to
protect our rights, is there oneor more particular things that
you recommend to people thatthey do to be able to fight back
during this critical timeperiod?
Alexis McGill Johnson (20:22):
Yeah, I mean, first of all, continue to
get involved, as we have seen.
I think that we are in somedark times, but I have seen a
lot of light around peoplecontinuing to protest and we
have everywhere where we've beenable to put reproductive
freedom on the ballot, as youknow, we have been able to drive
out some significant majorities.
We have won so many of thoseraces, even when they did not
(20:46):
translate into the actual win,because they use some kind of
democratic maneuvering, like in,like in Florida, to deny the
majority the the right to, toexpand abortion access there.
It still has energized peopleand I feel like that fight is
there.
So I'm glad, I'm glad that youare asking that.
So we will continue to seethose ballot initiatives.
We're also, in this moment,standing up a campaign called
(21:09):
"I'm for Planned Parenthood as akind of symbol of a lot of the
reproductive freedom attacksthat are coming directly into
Planned Parenthood but will havea longstanding impact across
the reproductive health carespace.
Fighting against these Medicaiddefunds, fighting against a lot
of the insanity that is comingout of this administration and
(21:30):
will be coming right.
Like we're only maybe 30% or sothrough project 2025 was the
last estimate that I heard Likewe're not even at the
reproductive freedom section ofthat playbook, and so like
getting engaged, and gettinginvolved now and speaking to
your leaders, like showing up inthe town halls putting calls
(21:53):
into Congress, putting callsinto your local leadership to
ensure that people are fighting.
That's what people need to doright now, in this moment.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (22:01):
You know, at a time period where I
think so many people are talkingabout right to privacy issues,
whether it has to do withreproductive health care or many
other things, you know just thethought of the government
monitoring things like personalapps that people have on their
phones or other ways to trackwomen's periods or pregnancies
(22:22):
or what have you.
I mean it really does seem tohave almost like a "Black Mirror
sort of to it, and I remembervery vividly with it was my
senior year in college, I don'tknow, in the 1800s I guess, and
reading about, you know, "heHandmaid's Tale and this
dystopian future that was purefiction at the time and it's
(22:47):
just seems as though as timegoes by, we get closer and
closer to many of the thingsthat we worried about actually
coming to fruition.
And when I think about the factthat Clarence Thomas in
particular, speaking openlyabout, about Griswold v
Connecticut and what it wouldmean to ban birth control of all
(23:12):
things, I mean, do you seecases on the horizon coming
where we really could be lookingat overturning things like
Griswold and Eisenstadt andother seminal cases involving
again not just abortion rightsbut the right to even prevent a
pregnancy?
Alexis McGill Johnson (23:29):
I mean the very idea of having to ask
my husband whether or not I canget on birth control like that
should alarm every single woman,young woman in America right
now.
That is taking us so far backand, yes, I believe that is
possible.
Right, that's the alarm and theoutrage that I think we need to
(23:51):
ensure that people understandthat.
You know we've been screamingabout, you know Roe being in
danger for many, many years andthere was a even after the oral
arguments in Dobbs we still sawa 70 percent kind of
believability gap in peoplebelieving that it would actually
happen.
We'd seen obviously draconianlaws like SB8 in Texas come into
(24:12):
play.
We'd seen all of these otherrestrictive measures on abortion
access and people still didn'tbelieve.
So one, I think we got to burstthat bubble now and say that
that is exactly what thestrategy is.
That is exactly what this kindof patchwork of testing these
laws in these states to see howfar they can push the power and
(24:34):
control that they have and thenget that into a judicial system
with a very favorable court thatwill help them rubber stamp
their plan to control our bodies.
I think we have to be 100%laser clear on that.
And that's why I'd say like itis access to contraception, it's
things like the SAVE Act, right, like women who've changed
(24:56):
their names because they'vemarried or divorced, needing
their original decrees right Inorder to register to vote, so
that their name matches theirbirth certificate, or what have
you right?
And I, and I think that thatthose are the, those are the,
the ways in which they aretrying to take us to "he
handmaid's tale, to take us tothe black mirror, whatever other
(25:18):
, probably darker thing thatHollywood hasn't imagined.
And that's where I think, youknow, we have to be incredibly
alarmed, incredibly vigilant.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (25:27):
You know, this is just sort of a
personal side note, but my sonis a senior at Michigan State
University.
He's got a health care classwhere the actual assignment is
(25:50):
for young men to have to learnabout women's young men to on
social media, having a sit downexplaining things like
menstruation and menopause andand just basically how a woman's
body operates to his fratbrothers.
And what was so interesting tome, even though these are
college students is the numberof young men who seemingly like,
didn't even appreciate, reallylike, what a tampon was.
(26:14):
And I know that that soundsridiculous and I can't help.
I keep on going back to "heHandmaid's Tale, but the thing
about it that always struck memore than anything else is that
in Gilead nobody was happy.
I mean, the men weren't happyeither.
You know, yes, it was terrible.
Terrible for the women to becontrolled that way.
But even the men who were incontrol, they weren't super
(26:35):
happy with their lives either.
So I don't know what we'removing forward on this for.
Like nobody wins in that kindof a society and we always say
that none of us are really freeif some of us aren't free.
But in that situation I meanagain, not good for anyone.
Alexis McGill Johnson (26:54):
You are so right, right, but the
oppressors aren't free either.
Right, doing the work ofoppression is hard and dirty
work, and there is, you know,which is why we are aligned
around movements of freedom,right, actually finding the
inclusive ways to to liberateeveryone, because there is a a
goal, and a joyful goal intrying to find that liberation,
(27:16):
and it and it starts withfighting against these horrible
restrictions of our bodies,right, our bodily autonomy.
It's a part of ourself-determination, it's part of
how we build our futures.
And so, first of all, I lovethe story about your, your son
and his friends and being ableto have this conversation.
You know, so much of sexualeducation has been stigmatized,
(27:37):
right, like part of what we haveto fight here as well, and
stories and information, justbasic information to fight
against the misinformation is soimportant because it helps us
destigmatize, it helps usnormalize the conversation so
that people can use the rightterms for the right parts of our
body and also be able toadvocate for themselves with a
provider or in a relationship,and I think that that is so
(27:58):
incredible, it's so healthy.
And because these are not justsons, they one day will be
husbands, you know, they mayhave daughters.
They have co-workers, and I dothink that this isn't just a
gendered issue, right.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (28:12):
I have these conversations
sometimes with women I knowwhere, and I remember talking to
one woman in particular who hadhad a couple ectopic
pregnancies and I mean thank God, obviously, that she was able
to get medical treatment forthose.
But when I said, you know, Iknew that her husband was a
Trump supporter and I said how,I mean, these procedures saved
(28:32):
your life.
He would be a widower had younot been able to have those
procedures.
And she said I don't reallythink he understands that.
I mean, I technically had twoabortions, you know, and I said
this is why women have to havethese conversations with the men
in their lives and not justyeah, he knows I went to the
(28:55):
hospital, but he knows, you know, something happened, but he's
not sure what it was.
Well, we have to be a part ofexplaining to them exactly what
it is.
And what is that procedure thatyou just had, that saved your
life, because if men don't knowabout it, then maybe they feel
free to ignore it.
They're just ignorant of, again, how women's bodies operate and
(29:17):
work and why it is so importantthat we be permitted to have
the health care that we need,and how abortion is actually
health care.
Alexis McGill Johnson (29:35):
Say it again Abortion is healthcare.
And you know there are alsowomen who did not make the
connection, that I've heard fromover the years that the first
time they realized they actuallyhad an abortion was when they
saw it on their paperwork forhaving a miscarriage.
And, of course, you know thesame procedure, you know.
I do think that we need to bespeaking more about what
abortion is, how it saves lives,how it allows people to make
(29:57):
the right decisions for theirfamilies, that the majority of
people who seek access toabortion are already mothers, so
they know exactly what'sentailed and are fighting to
protect the family that theyhave and the life that they've
designed for them.
And I think that all of thesekind of attempts to deny us
(30:18):
freedom really don't speak tothe reality of how people
navigate and build their lives.
I think the stories actuallyhelp us build the freedom
Attorney General Dana Nessel (30:25):
I agree
Well, preach on Sister!Thank you, Alexis for all your
incredible work, again duringpossibly one of the most
challenging times one couldpossibly imagine, but we
appreciate you and your goodwork.
Thank you for coming on thepodcast and hope to have further
discussions about this againsoon.
So, thank you, thank you.
Alexis McGill Johnson (30:46):
Thank you for having me.
Attorney General Dana Ness (30:52):
Well , that's this week's episode of
Pantsuits and Lawsuits, and welook forward to having you back
next time and learn more aboutthe work that both of our
departments continue to do.
So see you next time.
Hi everyone and welcome back to
another episode of Pantsuits andLawsuits, your one-stop shop to
learn about the latest legalbattles impacting American
communities, from sea to shiningsea.
So thanks for tuning in.
(00:29):
So thanks for tuning in.
Now, unfortunately, Arizona areGeneral Kris Mayes arizona
Attorney General Chris Mays thisweek, but not to worry, we're
going to take a break from theongoing discussion of lawless
executive orders and morallybankrupt billionaires to talk
about something else home (00:39):
that hits very close to home your
right to bodily autonomy.
And in just a little bit I'mgoing to be talking to Alexis
McGill Johnson.
She's the president and CEO ofPlanned Parenthood Federation of
America and we're goingto break some things down.
But first a little bit ofbackground.
You probably remember that thedebate over reproductive freedom
(01:07):
was really catapulted to theforefront of public discourse
back in May of 2022, when theUnited States Supreme Court
decision in Dobbs v JacksonWomen's Health Organization
overturned Roe v Wade, healthorganization overturned Roe v
Wade, and that As of chaos andutter confusion.
(01:31):
Doctors, patients and theirfamilies were scrambling all
across the country to decipherwhat the erasure of half a
century's precedent protectingreproductive freedom would mean
for their health and livelihood.
And here in Michigan,immediately following the Dobbs
decision, my department was ableto secure a preliminary
(01:53):
injunction against the state'sarchaic 1931 abortion ban that
prevented AG physicians Mayesand their patients from being
prosecuted for engaging in whatis often a life-saving medical
procedure.
That abortion ban would havesprang back into effect
immediately as soon as Dobbsofficially had been rendered by
(02:17):
the Supreme Court.
So meanwhile, the residents ofour state were busy gathering
signatures for the ReproductiveFreedom for All ballot petition,
in anticipation that Roe mightbe overturned.
So what we did is we gatheredover 750,000 signatures for this
(02:37):
ballot proposal.
It was the most that we've everseen for any ballot proposal in
Michigan history.
And then Michiganders showed upon election day to make their
voices heard.
And all of America was watchingas we codified the protections
of Roe into our Michigan StateConstitution, impacting over 2.2
(02:59):
million women of reproductiveage in Michigan and, of course,
their loved ones, their families.
So the Michigan statelegislature, since that time,
has repealed the ban andenshrined new rights to legalize
surrogacy, safeguard our healthdata and also to protect IVF.
(03:20):
But rather than respecting thechoices made by individual
states, anti-choice groups havecontinued to mount targeted
legal challenges with theexpress purpose of chipping away
at Americans' remaining rightsto bodily autonomy, and that's
all the way from abortion to IVF, birth control and even the
(03:41):
ability for a person to managetheir own miscarriage.
Birth control and even theability for a person to manage
their own miscarriage as ofright now, Alexis one welcome,
so American much, women ofchildbearing age lives in a
state with an abortion ban stillon the books.
That's 22 states, and some ofthe ongoing litigation at the
federal level could make it evenmore difficult for the
remaining two-thirds of thecountry to access the health
(04:04):
care that they need for theirfuture.
So myself, ag Mays and manyother leaders across the nation
have made our stance clear.
Everyone, no matter who theyare, no matter where they live,
how much money they make,everyone deserves access to
supportive, high-quality,affordable health care to live
(04:27):
full, healthy lives.
(04:49):
Well, and we welcome to thepodcast today Alexis
McGill-Johnson, the Presidentand CEO of Planned Parenthood
Federation of America, thecountry's most trusted name in
sexual and reproductive healthand education.
As a lot of people know,planned Parenthood health
centers provide vital healthcare to more than 2 million
people each year at nearly 600health care centers around the
(05:09):
country.
We could go on for quite awhile.
But, alexis, welcome.
So much to the podcast.
Thank you so much for talkingto us today about so many
critical issues that you arefacing.
What a challenging time for youto be in this job.
Alexis McGill Johnson (05:31):
You know you don't come to Planned
Parenthood by accident.
You come here because you lovethe mission and you love the
fight and you believe in thefight, and so it's been an
incredibly challenging time, butyou know all about that and all
the fighting that you're doingin the great state of Michigan.
So I'm happy to be on thepodcast and happy to be here
with you.
in Peninsual in
Attorney General Dana Ness (05:44):
Yeah Well, so tell us a little bit
about some of the most recentevents that have been going on,
I think I mean, obviously it'sbeen one thing after the next,
after the next, but I know thatyou know there's been a case
that was just argued recentlybefore the United States Supreme
Court We'd like to hear moreabout.
And I will say anecdotally herein Michigan we just found out
(06:11):
that we're losing four to, youParenthood centers all the way
from the Upper Peninsula andMarquette down to Ann Arbor.
And you know if you could talka little bit about some of the
challenges that you're facing,not just legally but financially
as well?
X
Alexis McGill Johnson (06:21):
Yeah, I mean, look.
So Planned Parenthood is underattack from all sides.
Right now we have.
And administration Parenthood,has again through Medicaid
executive action, withheldfunding for Title X for several
Planned Parenthood affiliatesunder the premise that we are
violating their DEI actionnothing to do with reproductive
(06:42):
health care, but violating DEIand related to the provision of
services for undocumentedpatients.
And the reality is this is, youknow, again a political agenda
to.
You know, to find ways Governorto, you know, basic health care
(07:03):
, sti testing.
You know, access to birthcontrol, access to breast exams,
and I can't think of anythingmore outrageous than that.
But, yes, the Title 10 impact,which is the nation's largest
family planning grant program.
You know, not having access tothose resources for affiliates
who rely on them and for thecommunities means that it will
(07:25):
impact the number of healthcenters that will be able to
stay open in those communitiesand provide that.
You know, planned Parenthood isa critical part of the public
health infrastructure, literallya health system that
strengthens the public healthinfrastructure.
And, you know, without thepublic dollars to reimburse for
those services provided by ourPlanned Parenthood health
(07:46):
centers, it makes it hard togauge.
We also have a congressionalfight, as you know, related to
Medicaid and attempts to gutthat program and Planned
Parenthood.
Again, medicaid, as the largestinsurer for low-income
communities, could lose upwardsof $700 million and related to
(08:07):
the Medicaid is in the SupremeCourt.
The case that you referenced,that is the case that's called
Medina v Planned Parenthood ofSouth Atlantic, and this is
another example of a politiciantrying to weaponize the judicial
system to shut PlannedParenthood down.
To weaponize the judicialsystem to shut Planned
Parenthood down, governorMcMaster, the governor of South
(08:27):
Carolina, wants to challengewhether or not deny patients in
South Carolina from choosingPlanned Parenthood as their
provider if they are on Medicaid.
So we went to the Supreme Courtjust last week for those oral
arguments and, as you know, wealso have 3,000 people on the
steps fighting back because theysee that this is just yet
(08:48):
another attack to shut downPlanned Parenthood because we
provide abortion and the peopleare also not standing with that.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (08:54):
But with that, can you tell us a
little bit about?
You know we had some reallysignificant cases that went up
to the court in the last termand ultimately, whether it was
decided that they wereimprovidently granted or whether
there were standing issues, wedidn't get a final resolution on
some really important cases.
So what kind of felt like atemporary win isn't necessarily
(09:20):
going to be a win in the longrun on some of these issues, and
I wonder if you could speakabout some of those cases and
what concerns you have movingforward on cases we're likely
(10:06):
the limitations reemerge.
mifepristone
Alexis McGill Johnson (09:30):
It does feel like I think to your point
that some of the cases thatyou're thinking about, like the
EMTALA case, right, kind ofbeing pushed back down, you know
, and the impact of that onpatients who now have to be
again airlifted out of stateslike Idaho in order to get
access to life-saving careliterally life-saving care, I
(09:51):
think is a good example of howthis court is going to be in
partnership with theadministration, as opposed to an
independent reviewer havingreal independent judicial review
.
We are looking to the ComstockAct, right, we're looking that
for the limitations of myth ofPristone that we expect to see
with this administration and ofcourse we'll be, you know,
(10:12):
fighting against that, whetheror not you know you were allowed
to get abortion medicationthrough the mail or any other
things that are required toprovide an abortion service, and
that, again, I think, is goingto be the kind of thing that we
are going to be seeing.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (10:39):
I think one of the things that
people in my state didn'tappreciate right, I mean, here
we have a state overwhelminglythat voted in favor of
Proposition 3 in 2022,reproductive freedom for all.
So that had to do, of course,not with just abortion rights
states (11:57):
in Roe, but also with birth control and fertility
treatments and the ability tomanage one's miscarriage.
I think that people in my statehonestly, like did not
appreciate that you can't votefor Prop 3 and just think you're
in the clear and now we're finein states like ours, because
once you start to delve intoissues like you know abortion
medication, for instance that'swhat over half of all abortions
in the state of Michigan, and soif you start to outlaw, say,
abortion medication throughvarious different means, that's
going to affect us too, becauseit's not really reproductive
freedom for all, you know, ifyou can't get access to the
medication that you're utilizingfor, again, not just abortions
but also miscarriages.
Alexis McGill Johnso (11:45):
Absolutely , and I you know, look, I think,
if they're coming at every,every lever and they know where
the people are right, I think,to your point on the proposition
in Michigan, which is, as yousaw, you know, in each of these
states and purple states and redstates and, of course, blue
states, you see that this is aactually nonpartisan issue.
You know, in the same way, thatPlanned Parenthood is
(12:07):
nonpartisan because we seeeverybody in rural areas, as you
talked about, in urban areas,across party, across demographic
and geography, right, and so Ido think that they know it is
unpopular.
So they're trying to identifyall of these other ways to
restrict access and I think thatwe're going to continue to see
fetal more like new and novelways to approach their political
(12:28):
project, which is essentiallyto shut down access to
reproductive care and not justabortion right, access to
contraception, access to genderaffirming treatment.
We will see, I'm sure, fightsgoing up through these courts
and through this kind ofweaponized judicial system
around personhood, feelpersonhood, and it will come
both from IVF and access toabortion.
(12:50):
We are going to see, and haveseen, attempts to try to
restrict access to patientscrossing state lines, starting
with minors, right, becausethat's the strategy to starting
with, like, we want to protectour children from crossing state
lines to get access to abortionor to gender affirming care,
and then using that to build upa case law around restricting
(13:12):
access.
Overall, we are going to seemore criminalization, right, I
mean, and I'm curious how youand your colleagues are feeling
in this moment about the kind ofcriminalization of providers
right, we have a state trying toextradite a doctor from another
state for providing.
.
.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (13:31):
My colleague, Letitia James from
New York has been very vocalabout that of course you know,
and it's very scary, you know,but I mean that's why you know
the importance not just, ofcourse, of having Democratic AGs
but also Democratic governors.
Alexis McGill Johnson (13:43):
Yes
Attorney General Dana N (13:43):
Because ultimately they have the final
say as to whether or not they'regoing to allow a person to be
extradited for prosecution fromone state to another state.
Is what we're seeing here witha physician from New York, right
?
Alexis McGill Johnson (13:56):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I mean,
look, I totally agree, and Ithink our governors are a
backstop in a lot of ways,particularly with supporting and
resourcing in a moment when weare so desperately fighting for
every dollar to care forpatients, and I think this is
really critically important.
But I also do want to justshout out the AGs, though,
because you know you are such amuch needed backstop.
(14:17):
You don't have the sameconstraints as other bodies and
you know you're.
You can help explain the law orenforce the law, and and I
think those levers are reallyimportant in in what feels like
(14:43):
a really lawless time.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (14:44):
So, Alexis, I have a question and I
know nobody probably has acertain answer for this, but one
of the things, I think, duringthe presidential campaign that
Kamala Harris tried toaccentuate and she highlighted
the stories from the states thathad abortion bans of women and
sometimes girls who either hadbeen impregnated through rape or
incest.
What we saw a lot and we'recontinuing to see or are women
who are not able to properlymanage a miscarriage and being
(15:08):
put in this situation wherethey're literally have to get
sepsis and be on the brink ofdeath before they are permitted
to abort a pregnancy that youknow, frankly, is is never going
to come to term.
So, you're, it's not going toresult in a live birth to begin
with, but you're, you're riskingthe life of the woman who's
pregnant, who's carrying thechild, and we know statistically
(15:32):
that women are dying or comingto the cusp of dying or losing,
sometimes the ability to befertile at all after that.
And we've heard these storiesover and over again and I know
that now that they're sort oftrying to bury a lot of
scientific information throughDHHS and everything, it's harder
and harder to get those numbers.
(15:54):
But the numbers of women thatwere suffering from sepsis in
Texas was so alarming to me andI guess the question that I have
and I don't know if you have ananswer for it or not, but this
affects Republican women just asmuch as it affects women who
are Democrats or independents orthird party or what have you.
(16:15):
It doesn't make any sense to me.
I mean, it literally is healthcare, and I know that that
Republican women go through thistoo.
So can you explain it?
Do you have any understandingof this?
Alexis McGill Johnson (16:27):
I mean you're absolutely right.
And first of all, women havedied right, we know some names
of women who've lost their livesbecause they could not get
critical, life-saving,time-sensitive care, because
they were sent home or told towait until it got worse, or
because the hospitaladministrators and lawyers had
(16:48):
to debate what time was theright time to intervene.
And I think that is incrediblyalarming and it does obviously
impact people on both sides.
Right, it does impactRepublican women and, as I said,
the majority of people actuallysupport reproductive freedom.
Making it make sense is aboutunderstanding how the opposition
(17:10):
has literally weaponized thekind of rules change and
gerrymandered themselves intopower so that they can stay in
office and engage in thesehorrific abortion bans without
any accountability to theirconstituents.
So, majority of people in Texas, they do not like these bans
(17:37):
right, we know that.
And we know that they're alsobeing harmed across the board
because OBGYNs don't want tomove into Texas and practice
high risk maternal care.
We are seeing a decline ofdoctors wanting to move and
practice in banned states and inreverse migration out because
they don't want to becriminalized for the care that
they've been trained to provideand questioned about their
medical decisions to providepatients with the best care.
(17:59):
That is going to have a rippleeffect in a state, in a
community, an economy, when youdon't have enough medical
providers to provide basicpregnancy and miscarriage care.
And I think that was one of theshifts right during the
election, when we had thesestories around how abortion bans
have made pregnancy moredangerous, and I think that
really did bring a lot of peopletogether and it's how we won
(18:21):
many ballot initiatives becausethat happened.
Attorney General Dana Ness (18:24):
Yeah , and anecdotally, I just know
so many couples of childbearingage where, whether it's the man
or the woman in the relationship, they're just deciding to not
have children at all becausethey're so afraid of literally
dying during pregnancy, and so,of course, they're having
(18:44):
medical procedures to ensurethat they can't get pregnant and
they can't impregnate theirpartners, procedures to ensure
that they can't get pregnant andthey can't impregnate their
partners, and so, you know, it'skind of having the I would say
the opposite impact that I thinksome people thought that we
would have, not to mention, ofcourse, the increased rates of
maternal mortality and infantmortality that we're seeing as a
(19:04):
result of this as well.
Alexis McGill Johnson (19:06):
Yeah, yeah, you know, at Planned
Parenthood we saw a 1200%increase in vasectomies.
Like right after that arepeople are making decisions.
They are worried about becomingpregnant in a banned state and
getting that care.
Those who are pregnant areworried about traveling to those
states to get care.
And you know, I had a boardmember who was traveling in
(19:29):
Texas and was experiencing somesymptoms and called her doctor
and doctors to get on a plane.
I would rather see you herethan than have you see a
provider in Texas.
So it is going to affect allkinds of choices in this regard.
Attorney General Dana Ness (20:01):
What can people do?
You know, I know this is thequestion that I get all the time
and you must get thisconstantly.
You know, in order to protectour health care and in order to
protect our rights, is there oneor more particular things that
you recommend to people thatthey do to be able to fight back
during this critical timeperiod?
Alexis McGill Johnson (20:22):
Yeah, I mean, first of all, continue to
get involved, as we have seen.
I think that we are in somedark times, but I have seen a
lot of light around peoplecontinuing to protest and we
have everywhere where we've beenable to put reproductive
freedom on the ballot, as youknow, we have been able to drive
out some significant majorities.
We have won so many of thoseraces, even when they did not
(20:46):
translate into the actual win,because they use some kind of
democratic maneuvering, like in,like in Florida, to deny the
majority the the right to, toexpand abortion access there.
It still has energized peopleand I feel like that fight is
there.
So I'm glad, I'm glad that youare asking that.
So we will continue to seethose ballot initiatives.
We're also, in this moment,standing up a campaign called
(21:09):
"I'm for Planned Parenthood as akind of symbol of a lot of the
reproductive freedom attacksthat are coming directly into
Planned Parenthood but will havea longstanding impact across
the reproductive health carespace.
Fighting against these Medicaiddefunds, fighting against a lot
of the insanity that is comingout of this administration and
(21:30):
will be coming right.
Like we're only maybe 30% or sothrough project 2025 was the
last estimate that I heard Likewe're not even at the
reproductive freedom section ofthat playbook, and so like
getting engaged, and gettinginvolved now and speaking to
your leaders, like showing up inthe town halls putting calls
(21:53):
into Congress, putting callsinto your local leadership to
ensure that people are fighting.
That's what people need to doright now, in this moment.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (22:01):
You know, at a time period where I
think so many people are talkingabout right to privacy issues,
whether it has to do withreproductive health care or many
other things, you know just thethought of the government
monitoring things like personalapps that people have on their
phones or other ways to trackwomen's periods or pregnancies
(22:22):
or what have you.
I mean it really does seem tohave almost like a "Black Mirror
sort of to it, and I remembervery vividly with it was my
senior year in college, I don'tknow, in the 1800s I guess, and
reading about, you know, "heHandmaid's Tale and this
dystopian future that was purefiction at the time and it's
(22:47):
just seems as though as timegoes by, we get closer and
closer to many of the thingsthat we worried about actually
coming to fruition.
And when I think about the factthat Clarence Thomas in
particular, speaking openlyabout, about Griswold v
Connecticut and what it wouldmean to ban birth control of all
(23:12):
things, I mean, do you seecases on the horizon coming
where we really could be lookingat overturning things like
Griswold and Eisenstadt andother seminal cases involving
again not just abortion rightsbut the right to even prevent a
pregnancy?
Alexis McGill Johnson (23:29):
I mean the very idea of having to ask
my husband whether or not I canget on birth control like that
should alarm every single woman,young woman in America right
now.
That is taking us so far backand, yes, I believe that is
possible.
Right, that's the alarm and theoutrage that I think we need to
(23:51):
ensure that people understandthat.
You know we've been screamingabout, you know Roe being in
danger for many, many years andthere was a even after the oral
arguments in Dobbs we still sawa 70 percent kind of
believability gap in peoplebelieving that it would actually
happen.
We'd seen obviously draconianlaws like SB8 in Texas come into
(24:12):
play.
We'd seen all of these otherrestrictive measures on abortion
access and people still didn'tbelieve.
So one, I think we got to burstthat bubble now and say that
that is exactly what thestrategy is.
That is exactly what this kindof patchwork of testing these
laws in these states to see howfar they can push the power and
(24:34):
control that they have and thenget that into a judicial system
with a very favorable court thatwill help them rubber stamp
their plan to control our bodies.
I think we have to be 100%laser clear on that.
And that's why I'd say like itis access to contraception, it's
things like the SAVE Act, right, like women who've changed
(24:56):
their names because they'vemarried or divorced, needing
their original decrees right Inorder to register to vote, so
that their name matches theirbirth certificate, or what have
you right?
And I, and I think that thatthose are the, those are the,
the ways in which they aretrying to take us to "he
handmaid's tale, to take us tothe black mirror, whatever other
(25:18):
, probably darker thing thatHollywood hasn't imagined.
And that's where I think, youknow, we have to be incredibly
alarmed, incredibly vigilant.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (25:27):
You know, this is just sort of a
personal side note, but my sonis a senior at Michigan State
University.
He's got a health care classwhere the actual assignment is
(25:50):
for young men to have to learnabout women's young men to on
social media, having a sit downexplaining things like
menstruation and menopause andand just basically how a woman's
body operates to his fratbrothers.
And what was so interesting tome, even though these are
college students is the numberof young men who seemingly like,
didn't even appreciate, reallylike, what a tampon was.
(26:14):
And I know that that soundsridiculous and I can't help.
I keep on going back to "heHandmaid's Tale, but the thing
about it that always struck memore than anything else is that
in Gilead nobody was happy.
I mean, the men weren't happyeither.
You know, yes, it was terrible.
Terrible for the women to becontrolled that way.
But even the men who were incontrol, they weren't super
(26:35):
happy with their lives either.
So I don't know what we'removing forward on this for.
Like nobody wins in that kindof a society and we always say
that none of us are really freeif some of us aren't free.
But in that situation I meanagain, not good for anyone.
Alexis McGill Johnson (26:54):
You are so right, right, but the
oppressors aren't free either.
Right, doing the work ofoppression is hard and dirty
work, and there is, you know,which is why we are aligned
around movements of freedom,right, actually finding the
inclusive ways to to liberateeveryone, because there is a a
goal, and a joyful goal intrying to find that liberation,
(27:16):
and it and it starts withfighting against these horrible
restrictions of our bodies,right, our bodily autonomy.
It's a part of ourself-determination, it's part of
how we build our futures.
And so, first of all, I lovethe story about your, your son
and his friends and being ableto have this conversation.
You know, so much of sexualeducation has been stigmatized,
(27:37):
right, like part of what we haveto fight here as well, and
stories and information, justbasic information to fight
against the misinformation is soimportant because it helps us
destigmatize, it helps usnormalize the conversation so
that people can use the rightterms for the right parts of our
body and also be able toadvocate for themselves with a
provider or in a relationship,and I think that that is so
(27:58):
incredible, it's so healthy.
And because these are not justsons, they one day will be
husbands, you know, they mayhave daughters.
They have co-workers, and I dothink that this isn't just a
gendered issue, right.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (28:12):
I have these conversations
sometimes with women I knowwhere, and I remember talking to
one woman in particular who hadhad a couple ectopic
pregnancies and I mean thank God, obviously, that she was able
to get medical treatment forthose.
But when I said, you know, Iknew that her husband was a
Trump supporter and I said how,I mean, these procedures saved
(28:32):
your life.
He would be a widower had younot been able to have those
procedures.
And she said I don't reallythink he understands that.
I mean, I technically had twoabortions, you know, and I said
this is why women have to havethese conversations with the men
in their lives and not justyeah, he knows I went to the
(28:55):
hospital, but he knows, you know, something happened, but he's
not sure what it was.
Well, we have to be a part ofexplaining to them exactly what
it is.
And what is that procedure thatyou just had, that saved your
life, because if men don't knowabout it, then maybe they feel
free to ignore it.
They're just ignorant of, again, how women's bodies operate and
(29:17):
work and why it is so importantthat we be permitted to have
the health care that we need,and how abortion is actually
health care.
Alexis McGill Johnson (29:35):
Say it again Abortion is healthcare.
And you know there are alsowomen who did not make the
connection, that I've heard fromover the years that the first
time they realized they actuallyhad an abortion was when they
saw it on their paperwork forhaving a miscarriage.
And, of course, you know thesame procedure, you know.
I do think that we need to bespeaking more about what
abortion is, how it saves lives,how it allows people to make
(29:57):
the right decisions for theirfamilies, that the majority of
people who seek access toabortion are already mothers, so
they know exactly what'sentailed and are fighting to
protect the family that theyhave and the life that they've
designed for them.
And I think that all of thesekind of attempts to deny us
(30:18):
freedom really don't speak tothe reality of how people
navigate and build their lives.
I think the stories actuallyhelp us build the freedom
Attorney General Dana Nessel (30:25):
I agree
Well, preach on Sister!Thank you, Alexis for all your
incredible work, again duringpossibly one of the most
challenging times one couldpossibly imagine, but we
appreciate you and your goodwork.
Thank you for coming on thepodcast and hope to have further
discussions about this againsoon.
So, thank you, thank you.
Alexis McGill Johnson (30:46):
Thank you for having me.
Attorney General Dana Ness (30:52):
Well , that's this week's episode of
Pantsuits and Lawsuits, and welook forward to having you back
next time and learn more aboutthe work that both of our
departments continue to do.
So see you next time.
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