July 7, 2025 • 31 mins
When public education comes under attack, who stands in the breach? Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel and Arizona Attorney General Kris Mayes take us behind the scenes of their critical legal battles to protect students, teachers, and the very institution of public education in America.
Their fight is deeply personal. Nessel shares the story of her son with significant learning disabilities whose life was transformed by a dedicated teacher who continued teaching while battling terminal cancer. "She wasn't ready to die until Zach had finished fifth grade," Nessel recounts. That boy, once considered unlikely to read or write, later graduated from Michigan State with a 4.0 GPA. For Mayes, whose mother and sister both served as public school teachers, these attacks on education compelled her return to politics after a decade-long absence.
The attorneys general detail their successful legal actions to prevent the dismantling of the Department of Education, protect AmeriCorps programs training desperately-needed teachers, and ensure promised ESSER funds reach school districts that had already committed to projects. Their interventions have prevented devastating budget shortfalls for already underfunded schools across America.
NEA President Becky Pringle, drawing on her 31 years teaching middle school science, offers powerful insights into education's connection to democracy itself. "You could follow the trajectory of a society," she explains, noting that falling societies invariably begin by "taking away the right of its citizens to learn." From book bans to curriculum censorship to teacher intimidation, the current climate threatens not just academic achievement but the foundation of democratic participation.
The conversation exposes the false promise that dismantling federal education programs would simply transfer funds to states, pointing to evidence from Arizona where universal voucher programs have diverted billions toward private education while draining public resources. As class sizes grow, special education supports vanish, and teachers face unprecedented pressure, the attorneys general remain committed to their fight for America's educational future.
Subscribe to learn how these legal battles affect every family in America and what's at stake for our democracy itself.
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Episode Transcript
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Attorney General Dana Ne (00:07):
Thanks so much for joining us for
another riveting episode ofPantsuits and Lawsuits, your
favorite podcast for hearingabout the ongoing legal battles
shaping this country.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (00:19):
I am Arizona Attorney General Kris
Mayes.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (00:22):
And I'm Michigan Attorney General
Dana Nessel.
Attorney General Kris May (00:25):
Class is in session.
We're going to be talking aboutthe numerous lawsuits that we
have filed against theadministration in the education
realm, where we have stood upfor our educators and our
students, and higher educationin this country.
Attorney General Dana (00:53):
Certainly , the Trump administration has a
target on the back of educatorsand educational institutions
all around the country, and it'snot just K through 12.
Of course, it's universities aswell, both public and private,
and it's been a deep concern.
Kris, can you walk us throughsome of the cases that we filed
just in these last few months?
Attorney General Kris Maye (01:07):
Yeah , I think there have been
several.
I think you really have tostart with our case to try to
save the Department of Education.
As folks know by now, the Trumpadministration essentially
wanted to dismantle theDepartment of Education.
(01:30):
They were attempting to firemany people inside DOE, the
Department of Education, andwhat they were going to do would
have eliminated incrediblyimportant services and funding,
like funding for Title I schools, which are low-income schools,
and kids who are low-income andwho need that extra funding.
That also, by the way, wouldhave impacted our rural schools
(01:52):
here in Arizona, I'm sure, andMichigan terribly.
And then there's so many otherthings inside the Department of
Education that would have beendeeply impacted if they had been
successful in dismantling it,and you know we obviously were
successful in getting thatstopped.
(02:13):
I think another lawsuit that hasbeen really important for us to
win a preliminary injunction infrankly is the AmeriCorps
lawsuit, and we know a lot ofAmeriCorps volunteers work in
our school system at least theydo out here in our universities,
at our universities, and theyare critical, for instance, in
(02:35):
terms of us trying to increaseour supply of teachers.
We have a program at NorthernArizona University that teaches
teachers and gets new teachersinto our school system, where we
have a critical shortage ofteachers.
So again, Trump tried todismantle all of AmeriCorps
(02:56):
without Congress's approval, andthe impact on regular people in
Arizona of that would have beenjust huge.
Attorney General Dana Ness (03:11):
Yeah .
And you know, I think about theESSER funds case as well that
we have, at least preliminarily,had a lot of success on.
And you know, this is moneythat was allocated to public
schools and school districts allaround the country and it had
to do with the response to COVID.
And a lot of the schools tookup the federal government on
(03:39):
these grants to do things liketo renovate HVAC systems and
make sure they proper heatingand cooling systems in place to
make and many other upgradesthat were desperately needed in
schools all around the country.
The school districts accepted,you know, the proposals of these
grants.
I mean, they applied for itand were told they were going to
receive this money inanticipation.
For that they went out and theydid some you know, major, major
projects and spent in somecases for some school districts,
millions of dollars, only forthe Trump administration to then
(04:00):
say, psych, you're not gettingthe money after all, even after
they already spent it.
And now you know, but for usfiling this case and so far
being successful in this case,those school districts that are
already badly underfunded wouldhave to find money to make up
what is sometimes millions ofdollars and they only spent that
(04:21):
money because this offer wasmade to them by the federal
government.
And now it's time for thefederal government to keep their
promise, keep up their end ofthe contract and pay off.
Yeah, you know, I take it sopersonally, the attacks on
(04:43):
public education.
Several things.
Firstly, my parents were thechildren of immigrants that
could neither read or write andhad no formal education, and
they relied on the Detroitpublic schools in order for them
to better themselves in life.
And my dad became an accountant, my mom became a public school
teacher, a special ed teacher,and spent her career that way.
(05:05):
And they could only do thatbecause at the time we had
really good public schools andpublic schools are the great
equalizer.
And I look at my public schooleducation, which prepared me to
become the top lawyer in a stateof over 10 million people, and
I think a lot about my kids, whoalso are products of the public
school system.
(05:26):
But I think a lot about one ofmy sons who had a very
significant learning disabilityand he had an IEP and he had a
teacher that just was totallydevoted to him in elementary
school and she worked so hard.
I mean, I was always told thatmy son would never learn to read
(05:48):
, never learn to write, and hehad a teacher who wouldn't give
up on him, and so much so thatshe was diagnosed with stomach
cancer when Zach was in thethird grade.
But she kept on coming toschool over and over again, and
it was midway through the fifthgrade as as my son was making a
lot of advances and it was clearthat his teacher was not doing
(06:12):
very well and I learned laterthat it was recommended that she
go on hospice at that point,and I said, Mrs.
Petras, why don't you go home?
You know, spend some time withyour family, and I'll never
(06:33):
forget her saying, shortlybefore she died, that she wasn't
ready to die until Zach hadfinished the fifth grade.
And now my son just graduatedfrom Michigan State University
with a 4.0 grade point average,and he was never expected to
even be able to make it throughhigh school, let alone go to
college.
You know, and that's the storyof public education to me, it's
(06:53):
Mrs.
Petras who was determined tomake sure that my son and all
the kids she taught could have abrighter future.
And that's why the villainizingand demonization of public
school teachers really, I meanit infuriates me, because a
public school education is soimportant and it's the only
(07:17):
thing that allows people toadvance when they come from
circumstances that wouldn'totherwise allow them to.
It's truly what makes Americagreat, and it's unfortunate that
Donald Trump and hisadministration can't and won't
appreciate that.
Attorney General Kris Maye (07:33):
Dana , that is just an amazing story
and you know, boy, but alsoprobably the story that is
replicated all across America,with so many teachers who are
dedicated and, honestly, in alot of ways, I decided to run
for attorney general, get backinvolved in politics after 10
years of being out of politicsbecause of the way that I saw my
(07:56):
daughter's teachers beingtreated and the fact that they
were not being supported and Iwanted to do everything that I
could as attorney general tosupport them.
Like you, though, interestinglyenough, my sister is a special
education teacher and so yourmom was.
(08:16):
My sister is a SPED teacher inCalifornia and my mom was a
teacher, public school teacher,and I, too, went to public
schools and my daughter's inpublic schools here in Arizona.
So I think you know, yeah, forall of those reasons, this is
deeply personal, I think, notjust for us, but for the people
(08:39):
of our state who deeply supportthe public school system, who
deeply support our libraries.
That's another one that wefought the cuts to our library
systems that we successfully arefighting against, and we are
definitely not going to stopfighting to protect our public
school system as thisadministration continues to do
(09:02):
again unconstitutional thingsthat violate the rule of law.
Attorney General Dana Nes (09:28):
We're so excited to have Becky
Pringle here with us today fromthe National Education
Association to join us in ourconversation, of course, about
public education and also justeducation in general and what's
happening right now in thecountry.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (09:45):
So this is going to be a great
conversation.
Becky is a tremendous leader inthis space, in this area, and
I'm looking forward to havingthis conversation, so let's get
going.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (09:56):
Hi Becky, great to see you.
Becky Pringle, NEA President (09:58):
Hi , Dana, it's so good to see you,
my goodness.
Hi, hi, Kris.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (10:04):
Hi, Becky, how you doing?
Thanks so much for joining us.
We really appreciate it.
Becky Pringle, NEA President (10:08):
Of course, of course, my goodness,
thank you.
It is my honor.
Wow, you guys have been busy.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (10:24):
We have.
Becky Pringle, NEA Presiden (10:25):
Yes , you have.
Attorney General Kris May (10:25):
We're trying, that's for sure.
Becky Pringle, NEA Preside (10:29):
What you're doing right now, both of
you, let me start there.
First of all, I need to thankyou on behalf of the 3 million
members of the NEA and the 50million students that we serve
and the parents millions ofparents who just didn't know
what to do January 20th.
And right away our attorneygenerals across the country, the
two of you in particular,stepped up and said we will
(10:50):
defend the rights of people inways that help to slow some
things, allow us to bring lightto some things for those who
didn't necessarily know the fullimpact.
So you both know that I taughtmiddle-level students the
wonders of science for 31 yearsand as an educator for that
(11:11):
long, before Before I became anoffice of the NEA, I could talk
to you about what the USDepartment of Education meant
for me as an educator and for mykids, and that's in part
because I was a teacher for solong, and so you know I've been
(11:32):
on this earth for a minute if Italk for 31 years.
I knew firsthand, I lived it.
I know it.
Not everyone knows, but I knowthe impact of trying to
dismantle the Department ofEducation at a time when we know
that our students, all of them,not just those who come from
(11:52):
those communities that have beenmarginalized forever.
But all our students will beimpacted rural, suburban, urban
by higher class sizes, which iswhat's going to happen by the
fact that we don't haveeducators, because they're under
attack all the time.
The reality that will hit themare very evident to me as an
(12:13):
educator and to more and moreeducators and parents and the
students themselves.
Right at the outset, likeFebruary when the research
grants were cut and peopledidn't make that direct tie
either.
We have special educationteachers whose salaries are paid
(12:38):
from research grants becausethey're doing research into the
best teaching methods for ourstudents with disabilities, and
so they were gone on Monday.
Gone! And people don't knowthose stories.
Attorney General Kris Maye (12:51):
Yeah , and Becky, you make such an
important point, which is thatour schools, increasingly, are
places that provide so manyservices to kids.
I recently learned I didn'teven know this but in Arizona we
have some school nurses thatare providing Medicaid-funded
services to kids at school.
(13:13):
So when the Medicaid cuts comedown, some of our school nurses
may not be able to provide someof those health care services to
kids that they so desperatelyneed, and that's just another
example.
There are so many areas thatsort of are centered around our
(13:33):
schools that are going to beharmed and, again, these are
average everyday Michigandersand Arizonans and Americans who
are going to be hurt by thesecuts, these frankly cruel and
totally unnecessary cuts.
At a time when we need to notbe cutting.
We should be increasing fundingto our schools.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (13:56):
But what do you say to people and I
hear this all the time what doyou say to the narrative that we
don't really need to have afederal department of education
because that money will just godirectly to the states and the
states will better know how tohandle and manage that money, so
we don't need to have a DOE atall?
How do you respond to that?
Becky Pringle, NEA President (14:15):
We know what this is about.
We know this is about findingmoney for tax breaks for people
who are already obscenely richenough, and so we know what,
that.
We know what's going to happen.
But beyond that, let's justthink about even if that money
comes, or some of it comes, tothe states.
We know the impact of all ofthe other cuts they're going to
(14:36):
have on state budgets, wherestates are going to have to make
decisions about whether or notthey're going to fund education
at the level that not onlythey're funding now, but the
greater gaps that we're creating, whether we're talking about
taking money out of Medicaid orother programs, SNAP, all of
them, all of those programs aregoing to fall to the states, and
(14:58):
the states are going to be inthat place where they're going
to have to make decisions thatwe know will impact public
education in this country.
And so, first of all, I'm notfalling for that okie doke.
Let's start there.
And the second thing is that,even if money comes to the state
from the federal government,all of the other cuts that they
are making will impact thosestate budgets.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (15:18):
You know I share your theory there,
Becky on what's going tohappen, what this is really
about.
Because, as you know, I am froma state that, sadly, has
implemented universal vouchersand we are now spending in
(15:39):
Arizona, a billion dollars intaxpayer funds to largely pay
for wealthy kids to, or the kidsof wealthy parents to go to
private schools or to behomeschooled.
And that's what I think isgoing to happen here is I think
(16:00):
this is really a scheme toprivatize the Department of
Education, to send the moneyputatively, I guess to state
departments of education andthen for them to create voucher
programs or to do directvouchers from the feds.
I don't know which one it wouldbe, but that's, I think, what
(16:21):
their game is.
And maybe it's just because Ihappen to live in a state where
this has happened and it'sdevastating and it drains
funding from our public schools,which is where the vast
majority of our students areeducated.
Becky Pringle, NEA Pres (16:36):
There's just no question, Kris, that
what you just said is exactlywhat's happening.
And Arizona is such a goodslash bad example, right,
because they have been, thevouchers have been there, so we
already have evidence.
What you just said, absolutelytrue.
The money always goes.
You know, we pretended asthough, oh, we're going to help
(16:58):
black and brown students, that'swhat we're going to do, and
that never happened.
It never happened.
This is now going on threedecades, so it's not like we
don't have evidence.
And then, of course, the moneyautomatically goes to those
families that already have theirstudents in private schools.
And then what do they do?
Attorney General Kris Maye (17:17):
They raise the tuition.
Right, they just raise thetuition.
That's all they're doing.
They're getting the vouchermoney and then they're raising
the tuition so that they cancharge even more.
Becky Pringle, NEA Preside (17:28):
Just to charge even more.
So those families who couldnever afford it anyway, it's
farther out of reach for them.
The ones that could afford it,it doesn't matter.
And so here we.
Here we are with that scheme inplace.
But what we?
We also know what it does right, it's draining money from the
public schools, year after yearafter year, and making it harder
for states like yours to fundyour, your public schools, and
(17:52):
we've seen it over and overagain.
And then let's go back, Kris.
It's something you said to mejust now made me think about
this too, because we've alreadyseen this happen.
So, even if the federalgovernment reluctantly gives,
sends the money to the states,we already know strings are
going to be attached.
We already know that.
So if you are not complyingwith what we're saying about DEI
(18:16):
, then we're not sending it toyou.
Or we might say, we're going tosend it to you and we don't
because we found something out,you're teaching something, you
know the true history of thiscountry for A to Z.
They might say they're givingyou the money, but just what
happened right now?
I mean the money that has beenpromised already to the states.
Right now our schools are beingimpacted, which I always try to
make that point.
But the thing when you openedup, we absolutely have to
(18:40):
concern ourselves.
What's going to happen in amonth or so when our kids start
to go back to school, or Kris, Ithink you said that so, but
right now, schools are notgetting the money that was
promised to them.
I just I was just in a districtin East St Louis in Illinois
where they were using the ARPAfunds to put in HVAC systems.
I want to say you know who knewabout HVAC systems before the
(19:02):
pandemic?
Who?
Who was talking about that?
Now we did.
We had always, always beensounding those alarms that our
air filtration system is notsafe, or those kids were more
prone to get asthma and all ofthe things that predispose them
to get sick COVID or die fromCOVID.
But now everybody knows aboutit, right.
It's 2025.
And we have a school districtthat still didn't have the
(19:26):
resources to put in an HVACsystem and now they have finally
planned to do it this springand that money was yanked away
from them.
That was already promised tothem.
So these things are alreadyhappening.
That is the impact of thisTrump administration on our kids
and our communities, ourparents, this country.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (20:07):
You know, I want to bring up
something kind of interestingthat was a case that actually we
were involved in, in Michiganthat at the time was called the
Gary B case.
And, it seems like a millionyears ago now but the arguments
that were made by these kids whowere in the Detroit Public
Public School system, that atthe time there was an emergency
manager that from our formerRepublican Governor, Rick Snyder
, had had basically taken overthe school district but then you
know, you know, not used it ina way where they had proper.
(20:30):
You know, teachers and theschools you know were literally
falling apart and they, to yourpoint, they were freezing cold
or they're really hot in thespring or summer.
And you know, part of thearguments we made were that this
was a violation of the EqualProtection Clause under the 14th
(20:50):
Amendment to deprive childrenof just minimal levels of
education in reading and writingand math.
And we connected a publicschool education, a good, decent
public school education, to thepreservation of democracy,
because if kids are not beingtaught to read and write, they
(21:11):
are unlikely to vote, and to methat's part of the plan.
And then the other thing aboutit is this: Kids who don't have
a proper education also are muchmore likely to buy into
conspiracy theories and they'remore likely to be intolerant of
people who aren't exactly likethemselves.
(21:31):
And so I think we're seeing thefruition of that.
We oddly, we won this case atthe Sixth Circuit, if you can
believe it.
But then, en banc, the decisionwas vacated, which was very
unfortunate.
But I only say that becausethere is this direct correlation
, is there not, between ourability to maintain a democracy
and people being properlyeducated?
Becky Pringle, NEA Pre (21:53):
Honestly , I could not have said that
better.
You know, my dad was a historyteacher.
He had three girls and he wouldalways make us sit down and
listen.
You know," Rebecca, that's whathe called me, and he's really
mad or very serious.
"Rebecca, you need tounderstand your history, your
family history, black history,american history and world
(22:16):
history.
" You need to understand and oneof the lessons he taught us I
reluctantly, you know science, Ididn't care about it.
Well now, of course, I wish hewere here to talk to.
.
.
but he would always talk about.
You could follow the trajectoryof a society, a government, a
(22:37):
reign, and you could follow nomatter where you were in the
world throughout time.
You could follow it when it wason its rise and when it was on
its fall.
When you saw it was falling, itwas.
You could see, universally,those who were in positions of
power taking away the right ofits citizens to learn.
And what's happening now?
That's happening in our country, which is shocking, that we're
(23:01):
dealing with book bans andcensoring curriculum and
retelling, or leaving vast partsof history out of what's being
taught, and all of it isdesigned for what you just said,
Dana.
I mean we have to acknowledgethat.
Public education, universal,free, quality education for
everyone, everyone is thefoundation of our democracy, any
(23:26):
democracy, and when you don'thave that, or it's unequal,
inequitable, then you know whatyou described is exactly what
will happen.
And so not only do weappreciate that you take that up
from a legal perspective, and,regardless of the ruling being
vacated, we need to continue todo it.
(23:49):
As I said earlier, we've got toslow it where we can.
We have to lift it up and makethe connections that you just
made, which are so important.
If our students don't have thecritical thinking skills, if
they can't collaborativelyproblem solve, if they can't, if
they don't have the windows, ifthey don't have the mirrors to
(24:09):
see themselves and the windowsto see each other, then we
cannot operate our democracycannot operate the way democracy
should, where you have peoplewho are taking ownership and
responsibility for participationand understand what that civic
duty is and are able to makedecisions, to discern the
(24:31):
discernment that you talkedabout between lies and the truth
.
All of that is on the lineright now and it is deliberate.
It is deliberate.
We see it as it's proliferatingacross other states.
We know it, because we knowthat, at the end of the day,
that's what they see as a block.
(24:52):
An educated citizen is a blockto their march, on their march
toward unfettered power.
That's what's happening.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (25:12):
I have a question.
You know, one of the earlierexecutive orders that came down
from Donald Trump's magicalSharpie really threatened the
prosecution of teachers whoradically indoctrinated their
students.
No definition provided of that.
(25:33):
And I know that for me, youknow, I went and I put out a
statement and I did a video,directed at our public school
teachers, specifically saying atour public school teachers,
specifically saying just so youknow, please don't be afraid
that law enforcement is going tolike bust down your classroom
door because you had theaudacity to teach, To Kill a
Mockingbird to your students,which is on the list of banned
(25:57):
books, I notice, in many places.
Now, ironically, that's theonly reason I became a lawyer is
because I read that book.
I was so inspired by it.
But that being the case, youknow I put out a statement,
basically like sort of remindingpeople of Civics 101.
Like here is how criminalstatutes are formulated.
It takes in.
You know, for a federal lawit's got to be, you know, the
(26:18):
House, the Senate, signed off onby the president.
If it is a state law, sameState House and Senate signed by
the governor.
That's how you create acriminal statute, not through an
executive order.
But one of the things thatconcerns me is this threat to
school teachers.
You know for them to beconcerned 24-7 about like.
(26:40):
Is the federal government goingto come after me if I'm
teaching in accordance with ourschool district's curriculum?
What do you say to, you know,to teachers out there that are
afraid every day to go to work,and people who don't even want
to stay in the professionbecause they're so concerned
about it?
Becky Pringle, NEA President (27:00):
I want you to imagine and I'm
going back to you know, justteaching, teaching, even when I
started.
That's a hard job to do.
We have so many things.
I always, whenever I talk aboutmy teaching, I always say I
taught students, and I say thatdeliberately I didn't teach
science.
I taught students the wonders ofscience.
(27:22):
Because I knew that when Sadecame in two days a week and I'm
talking away about the threelaws of motion and she missed
something and she's not makingthe connection I had to
understand why she was onlycoming to school two days a week
.
And I found out that she hadseven siblings, she was 12.
(27:46):
That she had the babysitbecause her parents couldn't get
care for those kids and she wasthe oldest, she was responsible
, and so I had to factor thatinto okay, how do I get to this
child?
As a teacher, I had to spendtime trying to access resources
for Sade, all of these things,not just teach about the three
laws of motion.
I had to teach Sade, and sowhen we think about fast forward
(28:09):
now, not only do all teachershave to do that anyway, that's
always been true, but nowthey're under attack.
So what you rightly broughtinto this conversation the
struggle we are having at a timewhen we know that we have an
educator shortage, that inaddition to all they always have
to do, now you're putting thaton them, that fear that they're
(28:32):
going to get in trouble, or justthe disrespect of them as
professionals, and they'redisrespecting them and not
paying them.
So, yeah, how do we attract, letalone retain, educators in
classroom?
That's one of the reasons why Isay you know, everybody's going
to be affected by this, whetheryou will happen to be in that
(28:52):
marginalized group or not.
Those class sizes are going tosoar.
You're not going to have accessto career and technical
training at the level you did.
You're not going to have thestudent loans or access to help
to get through the student loanprocess the Department of
Education provides.
Everybody's going to beimpacted by what this
administration has done and whenwe go back to school, that
(29:12):
impact it's already happening,but that impact will grow larger
as our students withdisabilities don't have the
paraprofessions that help themget through that day and learn
those lessons.
(29:39):
The role you play I can'tunderestimate it.
Please continue to visit ourschools and talk to educators
and to parents and our students.
Please continue to use yourbrilliance to make those
connections and slow things downin the way that you have done.
On behalf of all of oureducators, I just can't thank
(30:04):
you enough.
Thank you.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (30:06):
We will do it.
We promise you, Becky, andthank you so much again.
And to paraphrase Henry Adams,it's our teachers who affect
eternity.
So we will keep fighting tomake sure our teachers can
affect eternity.
Thank you, Becky Pringle.
Thank you, Becky Pringle, fromthe NEA, for fighting for our
(30:27):
students in America.
Thanks for coming on ourpodcast.
Becky Pringle, NEA Presi (30:31):
Thanks .
Attorney General Kris Maye (30:39):
That is all the time that we have on
today's episode of Pantsuitsand Lawsuits.
Attorney General Dana Nes (30:46):
Thank you so much for listening and
for being lifelong learners.
We'll be back with anotherepisode about the latest and
greatest in Americanjurisprudence very soon.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (30:56):
And please do not forget to follow
us on social media, subscribeand also check out our website
for timely updates on the workof both of our departments.
Attorney General Dana Ne (31:08):
That's right.
But for now, it's time for meand Kris to hit the books.
Thanks so much for joining us for
another riveting episode ofPantsuits and Lawsuits, your
favorite podcast for hearingabout the ongoing legal battles
shaping this country.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (00:19):
I am Arizona Attorney General Kris
Mayes.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (00:22):
And I'm Michigan Attorney General
Dana Nessel.
Attorney General Kris May (00:25):
Class is in session.
We're going to be talking aboutthe numerous lawsuits that we
have filed against theadministration in the education
realm, where we have stood upfor our educators and our
students, and higher educationin this country.
Attorney General Dana (00:53):
Certainly , the Trump administration has a
target on the back of educatorsand educational institutions
all around the country, and it'snot just K through 12.
Of course, it's universities aswell, both public and private,
and it's been a deep concern.
Kris, can you walk us throughsome of the cases that we filed
just in these last few months?
Attorney General Kris Maye (01:07):
Yeah , I think there have been
several.
I think you really have tostart with our case to try to
save the Department of Education.
As folks know by now, the Trumpadministration essentially
wanted to dismantle theDepartment of Education.
(01:30):
They were attempting to firemany people inside DOE, the
Department of Education, andwhat they were going to do would
have eliminated incrediblyimportant services and funding,
like funding for Title I schools, which are low-income schools,
and kids who are low-income andwho need that extra funding.
That also, by the way, wouldhave impacted our rural schools
(01:52):
here in Arizona, I'm sure, andMichigan terribly.
And then there's so many otherthings inside the Department of
Education that would have beendeeply impacted if they had been
successful in dismantling it,and you know we obviously were
successful in getting thatstopped.
(02:13):
I think another lawsuit that hasbeen really important for us to
win a preliminary injunction infrankly is the AmeriCorps
lawsuit, and we know a lot ofAmeriCorps volunteers work in
our school system at least theydo out here in our universities,
at our universities, and theyare critical, for instance, in
(02:35):
terms of us trying to increaseour supply of teachers.
We have a program at NorthernArizona University that teaches
teachers and gets new teachersinto our school system, where we
have a critical shortage ofteachers.
So again, Trump tried todismantle all of AmeriCorps
(02:56):
without Congress's approval, andthe impact on regular people in
Arizona of that would have beenjust huge.
Attorney General Dana Ness (03:11):
Yeah .
And you know, I think about theESSER funds case as well that
we have, at least preliminarily,had a lot of success on.
And you know, this is moneythat was allocated to public
schools and school districts allaround the country and it had
to do with the response to COVID.
And a lot of the schools tookup the federal government on
(03:39):
these grants to do things liketo renovate HVAC systems and
make sure they proper heatingand cooling systems in place to
make and many other upgradesthat were desperately needed in
schools all around the country.
The school districts accepted,you know, the proposals of these
grants.
I mean, they applied for itand were told they were going to
receive this money inanticipation.
For that they went out and theydid some you know, major, major
projects and spent in somecases for some school districts,
millions of dollars, only forthe Trump administration to then
(04:00):
say, psych, you're not gettingthe money after all, even after
they already spent it.
And now you know, but for usfiling this case and so far
being successful in this case,those school districts that are
already badly underfunded wouldhave to find money to make up
what is sometimes millions ofdollars and they only spent that
(04:21):
money because this offer wasmade to them by the federal
government.
And now it's time for thefederal government to keep their
promise, keep up their end ofthe contract and pay off.
Yeah, you know, I take it sopersonally, the attacks on
(04:43):
public education.
Several things.
Firstly, my parents were thechildren of immigrants that
could neither read or write andhad no formal education, and
they relied on the Detroitpublic schools in order for them
to better themselves in life.
And my dad became an accountant, my mom became a public school
teacher, a special ed teacher,and spent her career that way.
(05:05):
And they could only do thatbecause at the time we had
really good public schools andpublic schools are the great
equalizer.
And I look at my public schooleducation, which prepared me to
become the top lawyer in a stateof over 10 million people, and
I think a lot about my kids, whoalso are products of the public
school system.
(05:26):
But I think a lot about one ofmy sons who had a very
significant learning disabilityand he had an IEP and he had a
teacher that just was totallydevoted to him in elementary
school and she worked so hard.
I mean, I was always told thatmy son would never learn to read
(05:48):
, never learn to write, and hehad a teacher who wouldn't give
up on him, and so much so thatshe was diagnosed with stomach
cancer when Zach was in thethird grade.
But she kept on coming toschool over and over again, and
it was midway through the fifthgrade as as my son was making a
lot of advances and it was clearthat his teacher was not doing
(06:12):
very well and I learned laterthat it was recommended that she
go on hospice at that point,and I said, Mrs.
Petras, why don't you go home?
You know, spend some time withyour family, and I'll never
(06:33):
forget her saying, shortlybefore she died, that she wasn't
ready to die until Zach hadfinished the fifth grade.
And now my son just graduatedfrom Michigan State University
with a 4.0 grade point average,and he was never expected to
even be able to make it throughhigh school, let alone go to
college.
You know, and that's the storyof public education to me, it's
(06:53):
Mrs.
Petras who was determined tomake sure that my son and all
the kids she taught could have abrighter future.
And that's why the villainizingand demonization of public
school teachers really, I meanit infuriates me, because a
public school education is soimportant and it's the only
(07:17):
thing that allows people toadvance when they come from
circumstances that wouldn'totherwise allow them to.
It's truly what makes Americagreat, and it's unfortunate that
Donald Trump and hisadministration can't and won't
appreciate that.
Attorney General Kris Maye (07:33):
Dana , that is just an amazing story
and you know, boy, but alsoprobably the story that is
replicated all across America,with so many teachers who are
dedicated and, honestly, in alot of ways, I decided to run
for attorney general, get backinvolved in politics after 10
years of being out of politicsbecause of the way that I saw my
(07:56):
daughter's teachers beingtreated and the fact that they
were not being supported and Iwanted to do everything that I
could as attorney general tosupport them.
Like you, though, interestinglyenough, my sister is a special
education teacher and so yourmom was.
(08:16):
My sister is a SPED teacher inCalifornia and my mom was a
teacher, public school teacher,and I, too, went to public
schools and my daughter's inpublic schools here in Arizona.
So I think you know, yeah, forall of those reasons, this is
deeply personal, I think, notjust for us, but for the people
(08:39):
of our state who deeply supportthe public school system, who
deeply support our libraries.
That's another one that wefought the cuts to our library
systems that we successfully arefighting against, and we are
definitely not going to stopfighting to protect our public
school system as thisadministration continues to do
(09:02):
again unconstitutional thingsthat violate the rule of law.
Attorney General Dana Nes (09:28):
We're so excited to have Becky
Pringle here with us today fromthe National Education
Association to join us in ourconversation, of course, about
public education and also justeducation in general and what's
happening right now in thecountry.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (09:45):
So this is going to be a great
conversation.
Becky is a tremendous leader inthis space, in this area, and
I'm looking forward to havingthis conversation, so let's get
going.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (09:56):
Hi Becky, great to see you.
Becky Pringle, NEA President (09:58):
Hi , Dana, it's so good to see you,
my goodness.
Hi, hi, Kris.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (10:04):
Hi, Becky, how you doing?
Thanks so much for joining us.
We really appreciate it.
Becky Pringle, NEA President (10:08):
Of course, of course, my goodness,
thank you.
It is my honor.
Wow, you guys have been busy.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (10:24):
We have.
Becky Pringle, NEA Presiden (10:25):
Yes , you have.
Attorney General Kris May (10:25):
We're trying, that's for sure.
Becky Pringle, NEA Preside (10:29):
What you're doing right now, both of
you, let me start there.
First of all, I need to thankyou on behalf of the 3 million
members of the NEA and the 50million students that we serve
and the parents millions ofparents who just didn't know
what to do January 20th.
And right away our attorneygenerals across the country, the
two of you in particular,stepped up and said we will
(10:50):
defend the rights of people inways that help to slow some
things, allow us to bring lightto some things for those who
didn't necessarily know the fullimpact.
So you both know that I taughtmiddle-level students the
wonders of science for 31 yearsand as an educator for that
(11:11):
long, before Before I became anoffice of the NEA, I could talk
to you about what the USDepartment of Education meant
for me as an educator and for mykids, and that's in part
because I was a teacher for solong, and so you know I've been
(11:32):
on this earth for a minute if Italk for 31 years.
I knew firsthand, I lived it.
I know it.
Not everyone knows, but I knowthe impact of trying to
dismantle the Department ofEducation at a time when we know
that our students, all of them,not just those who come from
(11:52):
those communities that have beenmarginalized forever.
But all our students will beimpacted rural, suburban, urban
by higher class sizes, which iswhat's going to happen by the
fact that we don't haveeducators, because they're under
attack all the time.
The reality that will hit themare very evident to me as an
(12:13):
educator and to more and moreeducators and parents and the
students themselves.
Right at the outset, likeFebruary when the research
grants were cut and peopledidn't make that direct tie
either.
We have special educationteachers whose salaries are paid
(12:38):
from research grants becausethey're doing research into the
best teaching methods for ourstudents with disabilities, and
so they were gone on Monday.
Gone! And people don't knowthose stories.
Attorney General Kris Maye (12:51):
Yeah , and Becky, you make such an
important point, which is thatour schools, increasingly, are
places that provide so manyservices to kids.
I recently learned I didn'teven know this but in Arizona we
have some school nurses thatare providing Medicaid-funded
services to kids at school.
(13:13):
So when the Medicaid cuts comedown, some of our school nurses
may not be able to provide someof those health care services to
kids that they so desperatelyneed, and that's just another
example.
There are so many areas thatsort of are centered around our
(13:33):
schools that are going to beharmed and, again, these are
average everyday Michigandersand Arizonans and Americans who
are going to be hurt by thesecuts, these frankly cruel and
totally unnecessary cuts.
At a time when we need to notbe cutting.
We should be increasing fundingto our schools.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (13:56):
But what do you say to people and I
hear this all the time what doyou say to the narrative that we
don't really need to have afederal department of education
because that money will just godirectly to the states and the
states will better know how tohandle and manage that money, so
we don't need to have a DOE atall?
How do you respond to that?
Becky Pringle, NEA President (14:15):
We know what this is about.
We know this is about findingmoney for tax breaks for people
who are already obscenely richenough, and so we know what,
that.
We know what's going to happen.
But beyond that, let's justthink about even if that money
comes, or some of it comes, tothe states.
We know the impact of all ofthe other cuts they're going to
(14:36):
have on state budgets, wherestates are going to have to make
decisions about whether or notthey're going to fund education
at the level that not onlythey're funding now, but the
greater gaps that we're creating, whether we're talking about
taking money out of Medicaid orother programs, SNAP, all of
them, all of those programs aregoing to fall to the states, and
(14:58):
the states are going to be inthat place where they're going
to have to make decisions thatwe know will impact public
education in this country.
And so, first of all, I'm notfalling for that okie doke.
Let's start there.
And the second thing is that,even if money comes to the state
from the federal government,all of the other cuts that they
are making will impact thosestate budgets.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (15:18):
You know I share your theory there,
Becky on what's going tohappen, what this is really
about.
Because, as you know, I am froma state that, sadly, has
implemented universal vouchersand we are now spending in
(15:39):
Arizona, a billion dollars intaxpayer funds to largely pay
for wealthy kids to, or the kidsof wealthy parents to go to
private schools or to behomeschooled.
And that's what I think isgoing to happen here is I think
(16:00):
this is really a scheme toprivatize the Department of
Education, to send the moneyputatively, I guess to state
departments of education andthen for them to create voucher
programs or to do directvouchers from the feds.
I don't know which one it wouldbe, but that's, I think, what
(16:21):
their game is.
And maybe it's just because Ihappen to live in a state where
this has happened and it'sdevastating and it drains
funding from our public schools,which is where the vast
majority of our students areeducated.
Becky Pringle, NEA Pres (16:36):
There's just no question, Kris, that
what you just said is exactlywhat's happening.
And Arizona is such a goodslash bad example, right,
because they have been, thevouchers have been there, so we
already have evidence.
What you just said, absolutelytrue.
The money always goes.
You know, we pretended asthough, oh, we're going to help
(16:58):
black and brown students, that'swhat we're going to do, and
that never happened.
It never happened.
This is now going on threedecades, so it's not like we
don't have evidence.
And then, of course, the moneyautomatically goes to those
families that already have theirstudents in private schools.
And then what do they do?
Attorney General Kris Maye (17:17):
They raise the tuition.
Right, they just raise thetuition.
That's all they're doing.
They're getting the vouchermoney and then they're raising
the tuition so that they cancharge even more.
Becky Pringle, NEA Preside (17:28):
Just to charge even more.
So those families who couldnever afford it anyway, it's
farther out of reach for them.
The ones that could afford it,it doesn't matter.
And so here we.
Here we are with that scheme inplace.
But what we?
We also know what it does right, it's draining money from the
public schools, year after yearafter year, and making it harder
for states like yours to fundyour, your public schools, and
(17:52):
we've seen it over and overagain.
And then let's go back, Kris.
It's something you said to mejust now made me think about
this too, because we've alreadyseen this happen.
So, even if the federalgovernment reluctantly gives,
sends the money to the states,we already know strings are
going to be attached.
We already know that.
So if you are not complyingwith what we're saying about DEI
(18:16):
, then we're not sending it toyou.
Or we might say, we're going tosend it to you and we don't
because we found something out,you're teaching something, you
know the true history of thiscountry for A to Z.
They might say they're givingyou the money, but just what
happened right now?
I mean the money that has beenpromised already to the states.
Right now our schools are beingimpacted, which I always try to
make that point.
But the thing when you openedup, we absolutely have to
(18:40):
concern ourselves.
What's going to happen in amonth or so when our kids start
to go back to school, or Kris, Ithink you said that so, but
right now, schools are notgetting the money that was
promised to them.
I just I was just in a districtin East St Louis in Illinois
where they were using the ARPAfunds to put in HVAC systems.
I want to say you know who knewabout HVAC systems before the
(19:02):
pandemic?
Who?
Who was talking about that?
Now we did.
We had always, always beensounding those alarms that our
air filtration system is notsafe, or those kids were more
prone to get asthma and all ofthe things that predispose them
to get sick COVID or die fromCOVID.
But now everybody knows aboutit, right.
It's 2025.
And we have a school districtthat still didn't have the
(19:26):
resources to put in an HVACsystem and now they have finally
planned to do it this springand that money was yanked away
from them.
That was already promised tothem.
So these things are alreadyhappening.
That is the impact of thisTrump administration on our kids
and our communities, ourparents, this country.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (20:07):
You know, I want to bring up
something kind of interestingthat was a case that actually we
were involved in, in Michiganthat at the time was called the
Gary B case.
And, it seems like a millionyears ago now but the arguments
that were made by these kids whowere in the Detroit Public
Public School system, that atthe time there was an emergency
manager that from our formerRepublican Governor, Rick Snyder
, had had basically taken overthe school district but then you
know, you know, not used it ina way where they had proper.
(20:30):
You know, teachers and theschools you know were literally
falling apart and they, to yourpoint, they were freezing cold
or they're really hot in thespring or summer.
And you know, part of thearguments we made were that this
was a violation of the EqualProtection Clause under the 14th
(20:50):
Amendment to deprive childrenof just minimal levels of
education in reading and writingand math.
And we connected a publicschool education, a good, decent
public school education, to thepreservation of democracy,
because if kids are not beingtaught to read and write, they
(21:11):
are unlikely to vote, and to methat's part of the plan.
And then the other thing aboutit is this: Kids who don't have
a proper education also are muchmore likely to buy into
conspiracy theories and they'remore likely to be intolerant of
people who aren't exactly likethemselves.
(21:31):
And so I think we're seeing thefruition of that.
We oddly, we won this case atthe Sixth Circuit, if you can
believe it.
But then, en banc, the decisionwas vacated, which was very
unfortunate.
But I only say that becausethere is this direct correlation
, is there not, between ourability to maintain a democracy
and people being properlyeducated?
Becky Pringle, NEA Pre (21:53):
Honestly , I could not have said that
better.
You know, my dad was a historyteacher.
He had three girls and he wouldalways make us sit down and
listen.
You know," Rebecca, that's whathe called me, and he's really
mad or very serious.
"Rebecca, you need tounderstand your history, your
family history, black history,american history and world
(22:16):
history.
" You need to understand and oneof the lessons he taught us I
reluctantly, you know science, Ididn't care about it.
Well now, of course, I wish hewere here to talk to.
.
.
but he would always talk about.
You could follow the trajectoryof a society, a government, a
(22:37):
reign, and you could follow nomatter where you were in the
world throughout time.
You could follow it when it wason its rise and when it was on
its fall.
When you saw it was falling, itwas.
You could see, universally,those who were in positions of
power taking away the right ofits citizens to learn.
And what's happening now?
That's happening in our country, which is shocking, that we're
(23:01):
dealing with book bans andcensoring curriculum and
retelling, or leaving vast partsof history out of what's being
taught, and all of it isdesigned for what you just said,
Dana.
I mean we have to acknowledgethat.
Public education, universal,free, quality education for
everyone, everyone is thefoundation of our democracy, any
(23:26):
democracy, and when you don'thave that, or it's unequal,
inequitable, then you know whatyou described is exactly what
will happen.
And so not only do weappreciate that you take that up
from a legal perspective, and,regardless of the ruling being
vacated, we need to continue todo it.
(23:49):
As I said earlier, we've got toslow it where we can.
We have to lift it up and makethe connections that you just
made, which are so important.
If our students don't have thecritical thinking skills, if
they can't collaborativelyproblem solve, if they can't, if
they don't have the windows, ifthey don't have the mirrors to
(24:09):
see themselves and the windowsto see each other, then we
cannot operate our democracycannot operate the way democracy
should, where you have peoplewho are taking ownership and
responsibility for participationand understand what that civic
duty is and are able to makedecisions, to discern the
(24:31):
discernment that you talkedabout between lies and the truth
.
All of that is on the lineright now and it is deliberate.
It is deliberate.
We see it as it's proliferatingacross other states.
We know it, because we knowthat, at the end of the day,
that's what they see as a block.
(24:52):
An educated citizen is a blockto their march, on their march
toward unfettered power.
That's what's happening.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (25:12):
I have a question.
You know, one of the earlierexecutive orders that came down
from Donald Trump's magicalSharpie really threatened the
prosecution of teachers whoradically indoctrinated their
students.
No definition provided of that.
(25:33):
And I know that for me, youknow, I went and I put out a
statement and I did a video,directed at our public school
teachers, specifically saying atour public school teachers,
specifically saying just so youknow, please don't be afraid
that law enforcement is going tolike bust down your classroom
door because you had theaudacity to teach, To Kill a
Mockingbird to your students,which is on the list of banned
(25:57):
books, I notice, in many places.
Now, ironically, that's theonly reason I became a lawyer is
because I read that book.
I was so inspired by it.
But that being the case, youknow I put out a statement,
basically like sort of remindingpeople of Civics 101.
Like here is how criminalstatutes are formulated.
It takes in.
You know, for a federal lawit's got to be, you know, the
(26:18):
House, the Senate, signed off onby the president.
If it is a state law, sameState House and Senate signed by
the governor.
That's how you create acriminal statute, not through an
executive order.
But one of the things thatconcerns me is this threat to
school teachers.
You know for them to beconcerned 24-7 about like.
(26:40):
Is the federal government goingto come after me if I'm
teaching in accordance with ourschool district's curriculum?
What do you say to, you know,to teachers out there that are
afraid every day to go to work,and people who don't even want
to stay in the professionbecause they're so concerned
about it?
Becky Pringle, NEA President (27:00):
I want you to imagine and I'm
going back to you know, justteaching, teaching, even when I
started.
That's a hard job to do.
We have so many things.
I always, whenever I talk aboutmy teaching, I always say I
taught students, and I say thatdeliberately I didn't teach
science.
I taught students the wonders ofscience.
(27:22):
Because I knew that when Sadecame in two days a week and I'm
talking away about the threelaws of motion and she missed
something and she's not makingthe connection I had to
understand why she was onlycoming to school two days a week
.
And I found out that she hadseven siblings, she was 12.
(27:46):
That she had the babysitbecause her parents couldn't get
care for those kids and she wasthe oldest, she was responsible
, and so I had to factor thatinto okay, how do I get to this
child?
As a teacher, I had to spendtime trying to access resources
for Sade, all of these things,not just teach about the three
laws of motion.
I had to teach Sade, and sowhen we think about fast forward
(28:09):
now, not only do all teachershave to do that anyway, that's
always been true, but nowthey're under attack.
So what you rightly broughtinto this conversation the
struggle we are having at a timewhen we know that we have an
educator shortage, that inaddition to all they always have
to do, now you're putting thaton them, that fear that they're
(28:32):
going to get in trouble, or justthe disrespect of them as
professionals, and they'redisrespecting them and not
paying them.
So, yeah, how do we attract, letalone retain, educators in
classroom?
That's one of the reasons why Isay you know, everybody's going
to be affected by this, whetheryou will happen to be in that
(28:52):
marginalized group or not.
Those class sizes are going tosoar.
You're not going to have accessto career and technical
training at the level you did.
You're not going to have thestudent loans or access to help
to get through the student loanprocess the Department of
Education provides.
Everybody's going to beimpacted by what this
administration has done and whenwe go back to school, that
(29:12):
impact it's already happening,but that impact will grow larger
as our students withdisabilities don't have the
paraprofessions that help themget through that day and learn
those lessons.
(29:39):
The role you play I can'tunderestimate it.
Please continue to visit ourschools and talk to educators
and to parents and our students.
Please continue to use yourbrilliance to make those
connections and slow things downin the way that you have done.
On behalf of all of oureducators, I just can't thank
(30:04):
you enough.
Thank you.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (30:06):
We will do it.
We promise you, Becky, andthank you so much again.
And to paraphrase Henry Adams,it's our teachers who affect
eternity.
So we will keep fighting tomake sure our teachers can
affect eternity.
Thank you, Becky Pringle.
Thank you, Becky Pringle, fromthe NEA, for fighting for our
(30:27):
students in America.
Thanks for coming on ourpodcast.
Becky Pringle, NEA Presi (30:31):
Thanks .
Attorney General Kris Maye (30:39):
That is all the time that we have on
today's episode of Pantsuitsand Lawsuits.
Attorney General Dana Nes (30:46):
Thank you so much for listening and
for being lifelong learners.
We'll be back with anotherepisode about the latest and
greatest in Americanjurisprudence very soon.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (30:56):
And please do not forget to follow
us on social media, subscribeand also check out our website
for timely updates on the workof both of our departments.
Attorney General Dana Ne (31:08):
That's right.
But for now, it's time for meand Kris to hit the books.
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