September 12, 2025 • 27 mins
The dismantling of America's public health infrastructure is happening at breakneck speed, with potentially catastrophic consequences for generations to come. When top CDC scientists walk out in protest, we should all pay attention. That's exactly what we explore in this urgent conversation with Will Humble, Executive Director for the Arizona Public Health Association, who brings decades of public health leadership experience to help us understand what's at stake.
What happens when anti-vaccine ideology drives national health policy? The answer is chilling. Humble breaks down how the gutting of the Advisory Committee for Immunization Practices could lead to essential childhood vaccines being dropped from recommended schedules. Since these recommendations determine what's covered by both the Vaccines for Children program (serving over 50% of American children) and private insurance, the result would be widespread vaccine inaccessibility. At $200 per COVID vaccine and similar costs for other immunizations, many families simply couldn't afford to protect their children.
Beyond vaccines, the administration's proposed 40% cut to the National Institutes of Health threatens to collapse the research pipeline that delivers medical breakthroughs. As Humble explains, NIH-funded research on mRNA technology enabled rapid COVID vaccine development and now holds tremendous promise for cancer treatment. Cutting this funding doesn't just delay progress—it drives researchers overseas and creates a scientific brain drain that could take decades to rebuild.
The assault extends to medical education itself, with new loan limits making it financially impossible for many students to become doctors, especially in critically needed primary care fields. Combined with inadequate support for residency programs, these policies will worsen physician shortages, particularly in rural areas where healthcare access is already precarious.
The stakes couldn't be higher. Listen now to understand the full scope of this public health crisis and what we can do to fight back before it's too late. Share this episode with anyone who cares about protecting our nation's health and scientific leadership.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Attorney General Kris May (00:05):
Hello everybody, Arizona Attorney
General Chris Mays here.
Attorney General Dana Ness (00:09):
And, hi, I'm Dana Nessel, Michigan
Attorney General.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (00:21):
And we are so excited to welcome
you back to another awesomeepisode of "Pantsuits and
Lawsuits," your favorite placeto catch up on all the
"machinations of litigation andin the federal government and in
state government and thetangled web that American
jurisprudence is today.
So welcome back.
Attorney General Dana Ness (00:39):
Yeah , this week we are going to be
tackling a pretty serious anddisturbing subject area.
We're going to be talking toWill Humble, who's the executive
director for the Arizona PublicHealth Association, and
discussing the TrumpAdministration's reckless,
chaotic and dangerousdismantlement of the nation's
(01:01):
medical research and publichealth infrastructure.
Attorney General Kris Maye (01:03):
Yeah , and it's going to be awesome
to have Will Humble.
I think everybody's going toenjoy him and we've been so
fortunate to have him out herein Arizona for a long time
working on public health.
But, man, has this issue evercome to the fore?
It's never been so timely, Dana.
(01:24):
We've seen, obviously, massfirings, lab closures, et
cetera, at the CDC, at the FDA,and other agencies within HHS,
but just in the last 48 hours wesaw, I think, the three or four
top scientists and top peopleat the CDC walk out in protest
(01:46):
against the anti-science agendaof RFK Jr.
So a very alarming situationgoing on.
You have to wonder, and I thinkwe'll probably learn more from
them in the days to come, whatexactly is going on inside the
CDC.
Attorney General Dana Ness (02:09):
Yeah , it's really, it's hard to say
in terms of why all of this ishappening.
I guess I would say.
I mean, clearly, I don't thinkany of us are surprised that RFK
Jr.
is behaving the way he is.
I mean, he's been notorious fordecades as somebody who's
anti-vaccine and who does notsubscribe to, you know, the
decades and decades of researchon the science of many different
(02:29):
types of treatments, of all theway from just regular ailments
to, you know, more nuanced typesof diseases and infections, and
the list goes on and on.
But I want to ask you this, Kris, if you have any theories.
I know we try not to fall downthe rabbit hole too much in
terms of these conspiracies, butI mean, climate change.
(02:51):
I got it right, like Iunderstood exactly what the
these members of the governmentwere doing, working in
coordination with big oil,fossil fuel companies for denial
of climate change, because itbenefited them financially to do
so and it kept them sellingtheir product.
But what is this about, do youthink?
(03:13):
I understand things havechanged substantially since
COVID and, for some reason, itseemed to benefit Donald Trump
to say that COVID wasn't thatserious, it wasn't that big a
deal, to downplay the number ofpeople who became ill or died
from it.
But, I mean, all of this.
What do you think is going on?
Attorney General Kris Maye (03:33):
Well , I know and the COVID thing is
fascinating to me as well andfrom this standpoint, when you
really think about it, one ofDonald Trump's most important
and signature achievements wasOperation Warp Speed and the
development of the vaccinethat's probably saved hundreds
of thousands, if not millions,of lives, which now, of course,
(03:55):
he doesn't take credit for atall.
Never talks about it, right?
And then he hires the RFK Jr.
to head the nation's mostimportant health agency, who is
an anti-vaxxer, you know?
(04:15):
And they are putting outguidance that will lead to fewer
COVID vaccines being available,because if the CDC doesn't
recommend it, then insurancecompanies don't pay for it.
So I think that's why a lot ofthese guys just walked out of
the CDC, because they didn'twant to be and couldn't be a
part of all of that.
You know, I was just going backto your original question --
why do we think this ishappening?
I mean, I will say that I thinkthere is a part of the MAHA
(04:37):
movement that resonates acrossthe political spectrum and that
is people feel as though ourkids are less healthy than they
used to be, are eating morepoorly, and are getting too much
junk food.
As a mom of a 12-year-old, Ican say that's something I worry
(04:58):
about too, and I struggle within terms of trying to make sure
that my kiddo is not eating toomuch junk food either at school
or at home, and so that is agood sentiment, right?
Like that's something we allagree with.
But, unfortunately, that thenbleeds over into this vaccine
(05:18):
realm, and that is a whole,whole different story.
Attorney General Dana Ness (05:22):
Yeah .
I mean, I think it's one thingto say that you don't want your
child to eat too many Twinkiesor Cheetos.
It's another thing to say, "Andso I'm also not going to get my
child vaccinated againstrubella.
Attorney General Kris May (05:38):
Right .
Our vaccine, yeah, on schedule,you know, or at all or at all.
So it's going to be interestingto see how all this plays out.
I hope it's -- the ending ofall of this is not tragic.
(07:53):
That's one of the incredibleironies -- and frankly, there's
a sadness associated with it --of our litigation, is that
states now that are being hitthe hardest by these funding
denials and claw backs andrescissions, et cetera, are the
Republican states.
And, obviously, that'sincredibly sad for them that
they're being harmed the mostbecause they don't have an AG
fighting for them.
I think it's particularlytroublesome when it comes to
public health grants, because weare a nation when it comes to
public health, right?
If there is a measles outbreakin Texas because Texas didn't
fight for its own public healthgrants, and then that spreads to
New Mexico and that spreads toArizona and that spreads to
California, we are a nation -- anation of states -- and in this
particular area, I think these,these cuts and the failure of
the Republican states to fightagainst Donald Trump's cuts is
particularly impactful.
Potentially, and to your point,we won't find out until there's
a nationwide outbreak of somesort.
Hi Will, Humble.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (07:55):
Hi Will.
I'm Dana.
Hi.
Nice to meet you.
Attorney General Dana Ness (07:56):
Nice to meet you.
Thanks for appearing on ourpodcast.
Will Humble (07:58):
Yeah, my pleasure.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (08:00):
So it is so good to see you, Will
Humble.
Thank you for joining Dana andI.
I want to introduce you to ourlisteners.
You are the executive directorfor the Arizona Public Health
Association, but you've wornmany hats in your past,
including heading up Arizona'stop public health agency and a
(08:25):
few other things.
So, welcome to "Pantsuits andLawsuits and we'll just jump
right into it.
We are so glad to have you,given everything that's going on
in the last 48 hours at the CDC, where we had, you know, I
think, three or four of theirtop officials walk out in
protest, and also, you know, NIHcuts, which Dana and I and the
(08:50):
other Democratic AGs have beenfighting against.
Let me just ask you about thelatest news.
What do you make of what isgoing on at the CDC?
Will Humble (08:59):
Well, I've got some colleagues that I know inside
CDC and so I try to get somelike inside the building scoop
on what's going on.
And when Susan Morrows wasfirst nominated, the employees
over at CDC were like we reallydon't know her that well.
She has great academiccredentials.
She's really well respectedprofessionally.
(09:22):
Because you can have differentkinds of directors.
Some will be super compliantand really just try to keep
their job and others will be init so that they actually do
their job.
And they discovered very quicklythat she was exactly who they
wanted, somebody who would stickwith the evidence, stick with
science, make evidence-basedrecommendations and decisions
(09:44):
for what the agency does.
So they were really pleased tosee her in action, respecting
the staff and lifting up theexpertise within CDC so that the
secretary would hear from themif he was interested.
It appears he is not.
And so the staff is really nowjust like, "oh my gosh, now what
?
" But it's clear to me thatSecretary Kennedy is interested
(10:06):
in you know, in a lapdog,basically, somebody who will do
whatever they are told.
And when he releases his reportnext week that we all expect he
will say vaccines are causingautism.
He will then start directingthe CDC director to eliminate
some of these childhoodvaccines, which will be
catastrophic.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (10:37):
I think you make an incredible
observation and I kind of heardthe same thing that they may be
on the precipice of releasingthis study that tries to tie
autism to vaccines.
I hadn't really understood thatthat would then lead possibly
automatically to them sayingdon't get the childhood
(11:00):
vaccinations.
Will Humble (11:02):
Right.
Well, it wouldn't directly, butbecause Secretary Kennedy got
rid of everybody on the AdvisoryCommittee for Immunization
Practices, what I expect tohappen is this report comes out,
h e's going to say autism iscaused by vaccines.
He's going to call an ACIPmeeting with his new members,
who will then makerecommendations that would
become part of the Vaccines forChildren program, VFC, which
(11:26):
provides vaccinations for morethan 50% of the US kids, and
private health insurance, whowould then adopt the new ACIP
standards.
And then you would have, Idon't know which vaccines, but
some vaccines being dropped offthe list.
Now it hasn't happened yet, butI'm just looking at the road
that he's grading and that'swhere it's leading, in my
opinion.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (11:53):
Can you talk, Will, a little bit
about what your projections are?
I mean, if this happens, theway that you believe and many
others seem to believe this isgoing to occur, can you tell us
how quickly you're -- we'relikely to see an impact, and
what kind of impact do youanticipate?
Will Humble (12:09):
Yeah.
So to the first part of yourquestion, I think what remains
to be seen is whether Article 1of the Constitution still means
anything.
You know, because up until nowwe haven't seen any real
oversight from Congress of thedecisions being made within the
executive branch.
The only thing that's beenholding the public health system
(12:29):
together in the last six monthsis Article 3, your work as
attorney generals, pushing backon both illegal and
unconstitutional decisions thatthis Administration is making.
So, what's going to happenhinges on whether Congress wakes
up, whether those committees inthe Senate, especially in the
(12:49):
Senate -- I think there's fourRepublican physicians in the
Senate, if I'm right -- whetherthey say up or not is ultimately
the answer to your first partof your question.
Do we start to see checks andbalances from Congress or are we
(13:12):
going to, for the next at leastyear and a half, have to rely
on the judicial branch andplaintiffs like yourselves to
keep the wheels on, and I can'tgive you an answer to the
question because I don't knowwhether they're going to stand
up to them or not.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (13:32):
Can you explain to our listeners
why the NIH is important and whythe CDC, why we should care
about what is happening to thesecritical public health agencies
and how that trickles down tothe, to the states, because I
think sometimes people look atit and they're like, "oh, it's
just a bureaucracy," but whydoes this matter to everyday
(13:55):
Arizonans and Michiganders?
Will Humble (13:58):
Yeah, it should matter to everybody.
I mean, the reason we have hadand made so many really dramatic
strides in treatment of thingslike cancer and all kinds of
medical conditions is becausewe've invested over the last
decades in funding to theNational Institutes of Health,
(14:20):
which pays for at theuniversities really that
foundational science researchthat establishes the evidence
base that then private sectorentities can use to develop new
therapies.
So it starts with thefoundational research that NIH
supplies the funding for andthen private sector, which plays
(14:43):
a really important role indeveloping these new therapies
and medical devices, they do thetranslational research and then
they pay for the clinicaltrials.
But if we don't invest in thefoundational research then there
isn't the ability for them todo that translational research
and then later the clinicaltrials that result in the new
therapies and medical devicesthat are saving so many lives.
(15:05):
Let me just use a quick examplewith messenger RNA.
Like mRNA studies through NIHwere funded for many, many years
building that basic evidencebase for messenger RNA
technology and then that ledModerna, Pfizer, BioNTech and
others to use that foundationalresearch to come up with the
(15:27):
COVID-19 vaccine in record speed.
So now that messenger RNAresearch that the NIH provided
is really super promising forcancer therapy and it really has
the potential to displacechemotherapy, which is a super
blunt instrument when you havecancer be cured, with a
(15:50):
targeted technology based on themRNA research that the NIH did.
(16:11):
So to get to your question,Secretary Kennedy wants to cut
the NIH budget by 40%.
Well, what that does iseliminate that foundational
research that ends up latergoing into translational
research and the clinical trialsthat help improve therapies for
cancer and a whole host ofother things.
And when you cut that pipeline,a) you're eliminating that
(16:32):
foundational research, so you'restalling the future of medical
advances, but you're alsoeliminating the workforce that
can do that.
And so in three- and- a- halfyears, if we all realize
finally, "oh my God, thiscountry made a huge mistake.
We've got to start putting somemoney back in NIH.
(16:53):
" You will have researchers wholeft for Europe, left for China,
and did their career worksomewhere else, and we will not
have the research workforce tobe able to recover from this,
and that -- that's how itbecomes not just a blip in the
(17:14):
reduction in medical research,but a long-term atrophy of our
ability to do this.
And, by the way, it puts theEuropeans in the driver's seat
when it comes to that next levelresearch that ends up in
clinical trials, they're theones that can end up getting the
patents and developing thetherapies.
They won't be developed herebecause that foundational
(17:35):
research didn't happen becauseof the decisions made by Kennedy
and Congress.
We may have to go along with it.
And so we'll see what happens.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (18:11):
So, Will, let me ask you this.
You know, what I've beenhearing and reading about is
that, you know, many -- I don'tknow if it's the AMA or that
are not official boards that arebeing formulated because
obviously so many physicians andinfectious disease experts and
all the rest know that theycan't have faith in the
government experts anymore.
Can you tell us what you knowabout that?
Will Humble (18:20):
Yeah, I mean I'm really proud of the American
Academy of Pediatrics.
Their board and their membersfully recognize that they are
going to really need to step upover the next three and a half
years to provide real-lifeevidence based recommendations
to, especially, pediatricians,and that's what they've been
(18:40):
doing.
So they've committed tomaintaining their own
recommended childhood vaccineschedule.
The problem is that U.
S.
law and the regulations thathave been established as Code of
Federal Regulations all referback to the Advisory Committee
(19:00):
for Immunization Practices andthe CDC recommendations.
So, as a matter of practice, interms of reimbursement for
(19:21):
vaccines -- both theAdministration and the vaccines
themselves -- everything hingeson, "can we get paid for these
things" and reduce the schedule?
Then the Vaccines for Childrenprogram would automatically drop
those vaccines and 50 percentof kids would automatically not
have access to those lifesaving,important vaccines.
And kids with private healthinsurance, their plans would
(19:43):
likely stop covering it,covering it, and so, even with
those member organizations whichis what they are having
alternative schedules as amatter of law, in terms of
reimbursement from CMS, centerfor Medicare and Medicaid
Services and Vaccines forChildren program, which is run
out of CDC, they would becomeinaccessible.
Attorney General Kris Maye (20:02):
Just to drill down a little bit
further on that, if we had toprivate- pay for a vaccine, for,
like, the MMR vaccines, whatwould that cost?
Do you have any idea?
Will Humble (20:11):
I don't know about MMR.
For the COVID vaccine, forexample, is about $200.
I don't know about the MMR, Ididn't research that.
But I could tell you a Medicaidmember who walks into their
pediatric office and is told wereally recommend this MMR
vaccine to your kiddo, butyou're going to have to pay cash
for it.
You know,, some will not eatthat week so that they can pay
(20:34):
for the vaccine, but others willtake a pass.
Kennedy will continue to talkvaccines down over the next
three and a half years, if he'sin there that long.
But this is an administrativemechanism to change the funding
to make that a reality.
So it's not just what he saysinto a microphone, but decisions
that he and his agencydirectors make that make the
(20:56):
vaccines inaccessible.
Attorney General Dana Ness (21:05):
Yeah , one of the things I found
really interesting was that thenew budget bill -- I will call
it -- sets a lifetime loan limitof $200,000 for medical and
dental school, even though theaverage cost of tuition through
graduation normally exceeds$300,000.
So you're basically saying thatunless you're, you know, a
(21:28):
multimillionaire, people can'tbecome doctors anymore.
Doctors are the most esteemedindividuals.
You know, like my mom, to thisday, is like, Why are you an
attorney general instead of youknow, an internist?
Because she would have preferredthat because that would be more
bragging rights for her and herfriend group.
(21:49):
But, for real, I mean growingup, one of the things that was
always interesting to me is whenI was trying to find cases, we
would refer to anybody else asMr.
or Ms.
, but not medical doctors.
They were Dr.
so-and-so, Doctor Whomever,because we revere doctors.
And so it's so bizarre to methat this Administration is
(22:12):
really handicapping ourinstitutions and making it
almost impossible for people tobecome physicians in the first
place.
Will Humble (22:19):
Right and it's a double -- and they're doing it
in two different ways.
Number one is what you alreadymentioned in terms of, you know,
the medical school part of this.
A nd, by the way, what thatdoes is it puts even more
pressure for new physicians tospecialize in procedural,
high-end practice, and that'sgreat.
(22:42):
Surgeons we do need surgeons,but where the lives are really
saved is in primary care.
I mean, they're the ones whoidentify the blood pressure 20
years ago that would have endedup in a stroke or a heart attack
20 years later and a surgeongoing in and trying to fix that
stuff.
So the way you keep apopulation healthy is with
primary care visits.
(23:02):
Because of the cost of tuitionand the lack of federal support
for those primary carespecialties, there's already a
disincentive to doing primarycare and this just makes that
even worse by not supportingthere.
And the other prong of this thatneeds, I think, a lot more
attention and people recognizingthis, is that residencies are
(23:26):
as important or more importantthan the number of -- I would
say more important -- than thenumber of medical students, and
we've got to start investingmore federal funds and
distributing those funds morefairly among the states for
graduate medical educationbecause that is what builds the
pipeline for physicians.
You could graduate from medicalschool, but if you don't find a
(23:47):
residency program, you're notgoing to be practicing in the
field.
So residencies are, I think,the most underappreciated part
of building the inventory ofclinicians that we're going to
be needing in the future.
And a lot of doctors are in,like, my age and they're
(24:09):
increasingly looking to retire,in part because of the hassles
they have with insurance programplans and stuff.
And so, if we don't fix thiskind of thing now, the pipeline
is a long pipe.
It's a several year pipeline tobuild the inventory of
clinicians.
A nd if we don't change thingsfast, both on residencies and
what you described on themedical school side, there's
(24:30):
going to be a much worseshortage than there already is.
And it's really bad in ruralparts -- in the Arizona rural
areas.
I'm sure it's the same inMichigan.
Some specialties, like, youjust can't get an appointment.
You got to drive to Tucson orPhoenix.
It's probably the same inMichigan, I'm sure.
Attorney General Dana Ness (24:53):
Yeah , it is actually.
A state rep that I know justneeded to have some pretty
advanced surgery.
She lives in Traverse City,which is, you know, in Northwest
Michigan, and yet she had tocome down to Ann Arbor in order
to get the procedure.
And that is becoming more andmore the norm as more and more
rural hospitals shut down and asthere are fewer specialists.
Will Humble (25:10):
I don't know where this is all going to end.
I mean I -- you know, theAmerican people are going to
speak in, you know, 18 months,and again in, you know, three-
an- a- half years.
And the future of the republicand public health is in their
hands.
Attorney General Kris Maye (25:50):
Will , I think you did an amazing job
of encapsulating this wholeconversation and why it's so
important.
You know, we are on the cusp,especially with mRNA, of
possibly curing forms of cancer,including glioblastoma, what
Senator McCain had, includingglioblastoma what Senator McCain
(26:15):
had and to yank the rug outfrom underneath that is so, so
wrong and so misguided.
Yeah, let's hope Article 1wakes up and does something
about it in the next few months,because we need them to show up
.
And Dana and I promise you andeveryone else that we'll keep
fighting for Americans and forour democracy and for our public
health system.
Will Humble (26:32):
Thank goodness for Article 3 and for attorney
generals like you that arestanding up for the people.
Attorney General Dana Ne (26:38):
Thanks so much for being on the
podcast, Will.
Much appreciated.
And thank you so much for allyour incredible work.
Well, that's all we have timefor on this week's episode of
Pantsuits and Lawsuits.
Attorney General Kris Ma (26:57):
Thanks for listening, everybody.
Please be sure to follow us onall of your social media and
stay in the loop about ourdepartment's various legal
updates.
We'd love to have you continueto follow us and we will get
through this together.
Let's hope we
Hello everybody, Arizona Attorney
General Chris Mays here.
Attorney General Dana Ness (00:09):
And, hi, I'm Dana Nessel, Michigan
Attorney General.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (00:21):
And we are so excited to welcome
you back to another awesomeepisode of "Pantsuits and
Lawsuits," your favorite placeto catch up on all the
"machinations of litigation andin the federal government and in
state government and thetangled web that American
jurisprudence is today.
So welcome back.
Attorney General Dana Ness (00:39):
Yeah , this week we are going to be
tackling a pretty serious anddisturbing subject area.
We're going to be talking toWill Humble, who's the executive
director for the Arizona PublicHealth Association, and
discussing the TrumpAdministration's reckless,
chaotic and dangerousdismantlement of the nation's
(01:01):
medical research and publichealth infrastructure.
Attorney General Kris Maye (01:03):
Yeah , and it's going to be awesome
to have Will Humble.
I think everybody's going toenjoy him and we've been so
fortunate to have him out herein Arizona for a long time
working on public health.
But, man, has this issue evercome to the fore?
It's never been so timely, Dana.
(01:24):
We've seen, obviously, massfirings, lab closures, et
cetera, at the CDC, at the FDA,and other agencies within HHS,
but just in the last 48 hours wesaw, I think, the three or four
top scientists and top peopleat the CDC walk out in protest
(01:46):
against the anti-science agendaof RFK Jr.
So a very alarming situationgoing on.
You have to wonder, and I thinkwe'll probably learn more from
them in the days to come, whatexactly is going on inside the
CDC.
Attorney General Dana Ness (02:09):
Yeah , it's really, it's hard to say
in terms of why all of this ishappening.
I guess I would say.
I mean, clearly, I don't thinkany of us are surprised that RFK
Jr.
is behaving the way he is.
I mean, he's been notorious fordecades as somebody who's
anti-vaccine and who does notsubscribe to, you know, the
decades and decades of researchon the science of many different
(02:29):
types of treatments, of all theway from just regular ailments
to, you know, more nuanced typesof diseases and infections, and
the list goes on and on.
But I want to ask you this, Kris, if you have any theories.
I know we try not to fall downthe rabbit hole too much in
terms of these conspiracies, butI mean, climate change.
(02:51):
I got it right, like Iunderstood exactly what the
these members of the governmentwere doing, working in
coordination with big oil,fossil fuel companies for denial
of climate change, because itbenefited them financially to do
so and it kept them sellingtheir product.
But what is this about, do youthink?
(03:13):
I understand things havechanged substantially since
COVID and, for some reason, itseemed to benefit Donald Trump
to say that COVID wasn't thatserious, it wasn't that big a
deal, to downplay the number ofpeople who became ill or died
from it.
But, I mean, all of this.
What do you think is going on?
Attorney General Kris Maye (03:33):
Well , I know and the COVID thing is
fascinating to me as well andfrom this standpoint, when you
really think about it, one ofDonald Trump's most important
and signature achievements wasOperation Warp Speed and the
development of the vaccinethat's probably saved hundreds
of thousands, if not millions,of lives, which now, of course,
(03:55):
he doesn't take credit for atall.
Never talks about it, right?
And then he hires the RFK Jr.
to head the nation's mostimportant health agency, who is
an anti-vaxxer, you know?
(04:15):
And they are putting outguidance that will lead to fewer
COVID vaccines being available,because if the CDC doesn't
recommend it, then insurancecompanies don't pay for it.
So I think that's why a lot ofthese guys just walked out of
the CDC, because they didn'twant to be and couldn't be a
part of all of that.
You know, I was just going backto your original question --
why do we think this ishappening?
I mean, I will say that I thinkthere is a part of the MAHA
(04:37):
movement that resonates acrossthe political spectrum and that
is people feel as though ourkids are less healthy than they
used to be, are eating morepoorly, and are getting too much
junk food.
As a mom of a 12-year-old, Ican say that's something I worry
(04:58):
about too, and I struggle within terms of trying to make sure
that my kiddo is not eating toomuch junk food either at school
or at home, and so that is agood sentiment, right?
Like that's something we allagree with.
But, unfortunately, that thenbleeds over into this vaccine
(05:18):
realm, and that is a whole,whole different story.
Attorney General Dana Ness (05:22):
Yeah .
I mean, I think it's one thingto say that you don't want your
child to eat too many Twinkiesor Cheetos.
It's another thing to say, "Andso I'm also not going to get my
child vaccinated againstrubella.
Attorney General Kris May (05:38):
Right .
Our vaccine, yeah, on schedule,you know, or at all or at all.
So it's going to be interestingto see how all this plays out.
I hope it's -- the ending ofall of this is not tragic.
(07:53):
That's one of the incredibleironies -- and frankly, there's
a sadness associated with it --of our litigation, is that
states now that are being hitthe hardest by these funding
denials and claw backs andrescissions, et cetera, are the
Republican states.
And, obviously, that'sincredibly sad for them that
they're being harmed the mostbecause they don't have an AG
fighting for them.
I think it's particularlytroublesome when it comes to
public health grants, because weare a nation when it comes to
public health, right?
If there is a measles outbreakin Texas because Texas didn't
fight for its own public healthgrants, and then that spreads to
New Mexico and that spreads toArizona and that spreads to
California, we are a nation -- anation of states -- and in this
particular area, I think these,these cuts and the failure of
the Republican states to fightagainst Donald Trump's cuts is
particularly impactful.
Potentially, and to your point,we won't find out until there's
a nationwide outbreak of somesort.
Hi Will, Humble.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (07:55):
Hi Will.
I'm Dana.
Hi.
Nice to meet you.
Attorney General Dana Ness (07:56):
Nice to meet you.
Thanks for appearing on ourpodcast.
Will Humble (07:58):
Yeah, my pleasure.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (08:00):
So it is so good to see you, Will
Humble.
Thank you for joining Dana andI.
I want to introduce you to ourlisteners.
You are the executive directorfor the Arizona Public Health
Association, but you've wornmany hats in your past,
including heading up Arizona'stop public health agency and a
(08:25):
few other things.
So, welcome to "Pantsuits andLawsuits and we'll just jump
right into it.
We are so glad to have you,given everything that's going on
in the last 48 hours at the CDC, where we had, you know, I
think, three or four of theirtop officials walk out in
protest, and also, you know, NIHcuts, which Dana and I and the
(08:50):
other Democratic AGs have beenfighting against.
Let me just ask you about thelatest news.
What do you make of what isgoing on at the CDC?
Will Humble (08:59):
Well, I've got some colleagues that I know inside
CDC and so I try to get somelike inside the building scoop
on what's going on.
And when Susan Morrows wasfirst nominated, the employees
over at CDC were like we reallydon't know her that well.
She has great academiccredentials.
She's really well respectedprofessionally.
(09:22):
Because you can have differentkinds of directors.
Some will be super compliantand really just try to keep
their job and others will be init so that they actually do
their job.
And they discovered very quicklythat she was exactly who they
wanted, somebody who would stickwith the evidence, stick with
science, make evidence-basedrecommendations and decisions
(09:44):
for what the agency does.
So they were really pleased tosee her in action, respecting
the staff and lifting up theexpertise within CDC so that the
secretary would hear from themif he was interested.
It appears he is not.
And so the staff is really nowjust like, "oh my gosh, now what
?
" But it's clear to me thatSecretary Kennedy is interested
(10:06):
in you know, in a lapdog,basically, somebody who will do
whatever they are told.
And when he releases his reportnext week that we all expect he
will say vaccines are causingautism.
He will then start directingthe CDC director to eliminate
some of these childhoodvaccines, which will be
catastrophic.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (10:37):
I think you make an incredible
observation and I kind of heardthe same thing that they may be
on the precipice of releasingthis study that tries to tie
autism to vaccines.
I hadn't really understood thatthat would then lead possibly
automatically to them sayingdon't get the childhood
(11:00):
vaccinations.
Will Humble (11:02):
Right.
Well, it wouldn't directly, butbecause Secretary Kennedy got
rid of everybody on the AdvisoryCommittee for Immunization
Practices, what I expect tohappen is this report comes out,
h e's going to say autism iscaused by vaccines.
He's going to call an ACIPmeeting with his new members,
who will then makerecommendations that would
become part of the Vaccines forChildren program, VFC, which
(11:26):
provides vaccinations for morethan 50% of the US kids, and
private health insurance, whowould then adopt the new ACIP
standards.
And then you would have, Idon't know which vaccines, but
some vaccines being dropped offthe list.
Now it hasn't happened yet, butI'm just looking at the road
that he's grading and that'swhere it's leading, in my
opinion.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (11:53):
Can you talk, Will, a little bit
about what your projections are?
I mean, if this happens, theway that you believe and many
others seem to believe this isgoing to occur, can you tell us
how quickly you're -- we'relikely to see an impact, and
what kind of impact do youanticipate?
Will Humble (12:09):
Yeah.
So to the first part of yourquestion, I think what remains
to be seen is whether Article 1of the Constitution still means
anything.
You know, because up until nowwe haven't seen any real
oversight from Congress of thedecisions being made within the
executive branch.
The only thing that's beenholding the public health system
(12:29):
together in the last six monthsis Article 3, your work as
attorney generals, pushing backon both illegal and
unconstitutional decisions thatthis Administration is making.
So, what's going to happenhinges on whether Congress wakes
up, whether those committees inthe Senate, especially in the
(12:49):
Senate -- I think there's fourRepublican physicians in the
Senate, if I'm right -- whetherthey say up or not is ultimately
the answer to your first partof your question.
Do we start to see checks andbalances from Congress or are we
(13:12):
going to, for the next at leastyear and a half, have to rely
on the judicial branch andplaintiffs like yourselves to
keep the wheels on, and I can'tgive you an answer to the
question because I don't knowwhether they're going to stand
up to them or not.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (13:32):
Can you explain to our listeners
why the NIH is important and whythe CDC, why we should care
about what is happening to thesecritical public health agencies
and how that trickles down tothe, to the states, because I
think sometimes people look atit and they're like, "oh, it's
just a bureaucracy," but whydoes this matter to everyday
(13:55):
Arizonans and Michiganders?
Will Humble (13:58):
Yeah, it should matter to everybody.
I mean, the reason we have hadand made so many really dramatic
strides in treatment of thingslike cancer and all kinds of
medical conditions is becausewe've invested over the last
decades in funding to theNational Institutes of Health,
(14:20):
which pays for at theuniversities really that
foundational science researchthat establishes the evidence
base that then private sectorentities can use to develop new
therapies.
So it starts with thefoundational research that NIH
supplies the funding for andthen private sector, which plays
(14:43):
a really important role indeveloping these new therapies
and medical devices, they do thetranslational research and then
they pay for the clinicaltrials.
But if we don't invest in thefoundational research then there
isn't the ability for them todo that translational research
and then later the clinicaltrials that result in the new
therapies and medical devicesthat are saving so many lives.
(15:05):
Let me just use a quick examplewith messenger RNA.
Like mRNA studies through NIHwere funded for many, many years
building that basic evidencebase for messenger RNA
technology and then that ledModerna, Pfizer, BioNTech and
others to use that foundationalresearch to come up with the
(15:27):
COVID-19 vaccine in record speed.
So now that messenger RNAresearch that the NIH provided
is really super promising forcancer therapy and it really has
the potential to displacechemotherapy, which is a super
blunt instrument when you havecancer be cured, with a
(15:50):
targeted technology based on themRNA research that the NIH did.
(16:11):
So to get to your question,Secretary Kennedy wants to cut
the NIH budget by 40%.
Well, what that does iseliminate that foundational
research that ends up latergoing into translational
research and the clinical trialsthat help improve therapies for
cancer and a whole host ofother things.
And when you cut that pipeline,a) you're eliminating that
(16:32):
foundational research, so you'restalling the future of medical
advances, but you're alsoeliminating the workforce that
can do that.
And so in three- and- a- halfyears, if we all realize
finally, "oh my God, thiscountry made a huge mistake.
We've got to start putting somemoney back in NIH.
(16:53):
" You will have researchers wholeft for Europe, left for China,
and did their career worksomewhere else, and we will not
have the research workforce tobe able to recover from this,
and that -- that's how itbecomes not just a blip in the
(17:14):
reduction in medical research,but a long-term atrophy of our
ability to do this.
And, by the way, it puts theEuropeans in the driver's seat
when it comes to that next levelresearch that ends up in
clinical trials, they're theones that can end up getting the
patents and developing thetherapies.
They won't be developed herebecause that foundational
(17:35):
research didn't happen becauseof the decisions made by Kennedy
and Congress.
We may have to go along with it.
And so we'll see what happens.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (18:11):
So, Will, let me ask you this.
You know, what I've beenhearing and reading about is
that, you know, many -- I don'tknow if it's the AMA or that
are not official boards that arebeing formulated because
obviously so many physicians andinfectious disease experts and
all the rest know that theycan't have faith in the
government experts anymore.
Can you tell us what you knowabout that?
Will Humble (18:20):
Yeah, I mean I'm really proud of the American
Academy of Pediatrics.
Their board and their membersfully recognize that they are
going to really need to step upover the next three and a half
years to provide real-lifeevidence based recommendations
to, especially, pediatricians,and that's what they've been
(18:40):
doing.
So they've committed tomaintaining their own
recommended childhood vaccineschedule.
The problem is that U.
S.
law and the regulations thathave been established as Code of
Federal Regulations all referback to the Advisory Committee
(19:00):
for Immunization Practices andthe CDC recommendations.
So, as a matter of practice, interms of reimbursement for
(19:21):
vaccines -- both theAdministration and the vaccines
themselves -- everything hingeson, "can we get paid for these
things" and reduce the schedule?
Then the Vaccines for Childrenprogram would automatically drop
those vaccines and 50 percentof kids would automatically not
have access to those lifesaving,important vaccines.
And kids with private healthinsurance, their plans would
(19:43):
likely stop covering it,covering it, and so, even with
those member organizations whichis what they are having
alternative schedules as amatter of law, in terms of
reimbursement from CMS, centerfor Medicare and Medicaid
Services and Vaccines forChildren program, which is run
out of CDC, they would becomeinaccessible.
Attorney General Kris Maye (20:02):
Just to drill down a little bit
further on that, if we had toprivate- pay for a vaccine, for,
like, the MMR vaccines, whatwould that cost?
Do you have any idea?
Will Humble (20:11):
I don't know about MMR.
For the COVID vaccine, forexample, is about $200.
I don't know about the MMR, Ididn't research that.
But I could tell you a Medicaidmember who walks into their
pediatric office and is told wereally recommend this MMR
vaccine to your kiddo, butyou're going to have to pay cash
for it.
You know,, some will not eatthat week so that they can pay
(20:34):
for the vaccine, but others willtake a pass.
Kennedy will continue to talkvaccines down over the next
three and a half years, if he'sin there that long.
But this is an administrativemechanism to change the funding
to make that a reality.
So it's not just what he saysinto a microphone, but decisions
that he and his agencydirectors make that make the
(20:56):
vaccines inaccessible.
Attorney General Dana Ness (21:05):
Yeah , one of the things I found
really interesting was that thenew budget bill -- I will call
it -- sets a lifetime loan limitof $200,000 for medical and
dental school, even though theaverage cost of tuition through
graduation normally exceeds$300,000.
So you're basically saying thatunless you're, you know, a
(21:28):
multimillionaire, people can'tbecome doctors anymore.
Doctors are the most esteemedindividuals.
You know, like my mom, to thisday, is like, Why are you an
attorney general instead of youknow, an internist?
Because she would have preferredthat because that would be more
bragging rights for her and herfriend group.
(21:49):
But, for real, I mean growingup, one of the things that was
always interesting to me is whenI was trying to find cases, we
would refer to anybody else asMr.
or Ms.
, but not medical doctors.
They were Dr.
so-and-so, Doctor Whomever,because we revere doctors.
And so it's so bizarre to methat this Administration is
(22:12):
really handicapping ourinstitutions and making it
almost impossible for people tobecome physicians in the first
place.
Will Humble (22:19):
Right and it's a double -- and they're doing it
in two different ways.
Number one is what you alreadymentioned in terms of, you know,
the medical school part of this.
A nd, by the way, what thatdoes is it puts even more
pressure for new physicians tospecialize in procedural,
high-end practice, and that'sgreat.
(22:42):
Surgeons we do need surgeons,but where the lives are really
saved is in primary care.
I mean, they're the ones whoidentify the blood pressure 20
years ago that would have endedup in a stroke or a heart attack
20 years later and a surgeongoing in and trying to fix that
stuff.
So the way you keep apopulation healthy is with
primary care visits.
(23:02):
Because of the cost of tuitionand the lack of federal support
for those primary carespecialties, there's already a
disincentive to doing primarycare and this just makes that
even worse by not supportingthere.
And the other prong of this thatneeds, I think, a lot more
attention and people recognizingthis, is that residencies are
(23:26):
as important or more importantthan the number of -- I would
say more important -- than thenumber of medical students, and
we've got to start investingmore federal funds and
distributing those funds morefairly among the states for
graduate medical educationbecause that is what builds the
pipeline for physicians.
You could graduate from medicalschool, but if you don't find a
(23:47):
residency program, you're notgoing to be practicing in the
field.
So residencies are, I think,the most underappreciated part
of building the inventory ofclinicians that we're going to
be needing in the future.
And a lot of doctors are in,like, my age and they're
(24:09):
increasingly looking to retire,in part because of the hassles
they have with insurance programplans and stuff.
And so, if we don't fix thiskind of thing now, the pipeline
is a long pipe.
It's a several year pipeline tobuild the inventory of
clinicians.
A nd if we don't change thingsfast, both on residencies and
what you described on themedical school side, there's
(24:30):
going to be a much worseshortage than there already is.
And it's really bad in ruralparts -- in the Arizona rural
areas.
I'm sure it's the same inMichigan.
Some specialties, like, youjust can't get an appointment.
You got to drive to Tucson orPhoenix.
It's probably the same inMichigan, I'm sure.
Attorney General Dana Ness (24:53):
Yeah , it is actually.
A state rep that I know justneeded to have some pretty
advanced surgery.
She lives in Traverse City,which is, you know, in Northwest
Michigan, and yet she had tocome down to Ann Arbor in order
to get the procedure.
And that is becoming more andmore the norm as more and more
rural hospitals shut down and asthere are fewer specialists.
Will Humble (25:10):
I don't know where this is all going to end.
I mean I -- you know, theAmerican people are going to
speak in, you know, 18 months,and again in, you know, three-
an- a- half years.
And the future of the republicand public health is in their
hands.
Attorney General Kris Maye (25:50):
Will , I think you did an amazing job
of encapsulating this wholeconversation and why it's so
important.
You know, we are on the cusp,especially with mRNA, of
possibly curing forms of cancer,including glioblastoma, what
Senator McCain had, includingglioblastoma what Senator McCain
(26:15):
had and to yank the rug outfrom underneath that is so, so
wrong and so misguided.
Yeah, let's hope Article 1wakes up and does something
about it in the next few months,because we need them to show up
.
And Dana and I promise you andeveryone else that we'll keep
fighting for Americans and forour democracy and for our public
health system.
Will Humble (26:32):
Thank goodness for Article 3 and for attorney
generals like you that arestanding up for the people.
Attorney General Dana Ne (26:38):
Thanks so much for being on the
podcast, Will.
Much appreciated.
And thank you so much for allyour incredible work.
Well, that's all we have timefor on this week's episode of
Pantsuits and Lawsuits.
Attorney General Kris Ma (26:57):
Thanks for listening, everybody.
Please be sure to follow us onall of your social media and
stay in the loop about ourdepartment's various legal
updates.
We'd love to have you continueto follow us and we will get
through this together.
Let's hope we
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