May 9, 2025 • 30 mins
Ever wonder who's fighting for fairness when corporations grow too powerful? Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel and Arizona Attorney General Kris Mayes pull back the curtain on the world of antitrust enforcement with special guest Lina Khan, the groundbreaking former Chair of the Federal Trade Commission.
This episode of Pantsuits and Lawsuits kicks off with a stark warning: without strong federal support, states like Michigan are left powerless against corporate abuse. AGs Nessel and Mayes join FTC Chair Lina Khan to unpack how weakened consumer protections, corporate mergers, and AI-driven “surveillance pricing” are putting everyday Americans at risk—and what’s being done to fight back.
Throughout the episode, one message resonates clearly: corporate accountability requires vigilant state-federal partnerships that stand firm against powerful interests. As Khan notes, there's growing energy among young lawyers wanting to become "trust busters" - providing hope that the next generation is ready to continue this essential work.
Check our department websites and social media to stay updated on our ongoing efforts to protect consumers from corporate abuses that affect your daily life.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Attorney General Kris M (00:06):
Welcome back to Pantsuits and Lawsuits,
your favorite podcast, to hearabout the pressing legal issues
making waves in America today.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (00:15):
And we are so happy to have Arizona
General Kris Mayes back fortoday's episode.
I don't know if last time, ifyou were sick or on vacation, or
maybe you temporarily joined acult or you know you're hiking
the Appalachian Trail, as itwere.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (00:30):
I don't know, I checked my
calendar.
I was actually on a plane on myway back from Oregon where we
had our AG Town Hall up therewith Dan Rayfield.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (00:40):
So that's where it was.
That's a likely excuse.
Attorney General Kris Maye (00:42):
I'll have to see video to confirm
that, but we're happy to haveyou back here today Thank you,
dana and our focus for today'sdiscussion is going to be
antitrust and monopoly law.
So let's get started.
As everybody knows, consumerprotection is a crucial pillar
of our work as attorneys general.
(01:02):
You have a right to be treatedfairly when you spend your
hard-earned money, and antitrustmonopoly laws exist to keep
businesses honest, protect theinterests of workers and
consumers and, frankly, togenerate competition and
innovation among entrepreneurs.
Attorney General Dana Ness (01:20):
Yeah , and later in the episode we
are so excited to have on formerchair of the Federal Trade
Commission, Lina Kahn, to talkabout how our state AG offices
work in concert with the FederalGovernment to protect our
economy against the threat ofmonopolies.
And, of course, the FTC is thefederal government's main
enforcer of federal consumerprotection laws.
And the FTC works with stateAGs to protect consumers from
(01:47):
fraud, deception and so manyother unlawful business
practices.
We think a lot about what theworld is going to look like, and
actually starting to look like,without a lot of the federal
agency involvement that we'reused to, and what it looks like
to have the states justoperating on their own, when
we're used to teaming up withthe FTC.
(02:08):
And I will say from theperspective of the state of
Michigan I don't know how elseto phrase this we're just
screwed.
We are absolutely screwedwithout the FTC.
There are a lot of differences,I think, between Michigan and
Arizona.
Arizona, from what I can tell,has some pretty substantial
consumer protection laws andregulations and in Michigan we
(02:30):
absolutely don't.
We're one of the worst
Attorney General Kris Mayes (02:33):
Is that right?
So is that both on the consumerfraud level and the antitrust
level, or just antitrust laws.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (02:42):
No, it's both.
We had some really bad rulingsfor a time period where we
called it the Engler Court.
John Engler was a three-termgovernor before you couldn't
have three-term governorsanymore.
Extremely conservative,extremely pro-business,
anti-consumer, I would argue.
And he stocked the MichiganSupreme Court and they took many
(03:04):
of our consumer protection lawsthose at least that existed and
just defanged them in every waypossible to make it almost
impossible to bring consumerprotection actions under the
state law, which is why we haveto rely on the feds so often on
these lawsuits.
And but for us working with theFTC, a lot of the lawsuits that
(03:26):
you potentially couldindependently bring in Arizona,
we can't bring it all inMichigan.
Attorney General Kris Ma (03:32):
That's insane.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (03:33):
So you know, I look at a lot of
the things that we've workedwith the FTC on, including
things like hospital mergers,which I'm sure you're facing in
Arizona as well, and just howdetrimental that is for
healthcare.
And it's not just the price, ofcourse, that consumers have to
pay, it's the fact thathospitals just are eliminated
(03:56):
wholesale and in more ruralareas just don't exist at all
anymore.
Attorney General Kris Maye (04:02):
Yeah , I mean absolutely true.
And even here in Arizona, wherewe have pretty good consumer
fraud laws and an antitrust law,like most states that have both
of those, we still depend onthe FTC for a lot of I don't
know, for lack of a better wordhorsepower.
(04:23):
And, as you know, likeantitrust cases are amongst the
most expensive cases to bring,you have to have economics
experts.
You know almost always have tohave an economist on board, not
necessarily the case when youhave just a pure consumer fraud
case against a company or anindividual, but antitrust cases
(04:46):
are really complicated and so onthe Kroger Albertsons case, we
joined the FTC in suing to blockthat proposed merger on
antitrust grounds and othergrounds and I don't know that we
could have done that casewithout the FTC, which paid for
(05:06):
a lot of the experts that wereally needed in that case.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (05:11):
And even, as you suggested, even
where you do have the laws inplace, we just don't have the
staff for it.
Attorney General Kris May (05:16):
Right .
Attorney General Dana Nesse (05:16):
And again I mean, can you imagine
the cost of hiring these expertwitnesses that you absolutely
need to have to challenge thesecases?
And I look at the cases that wehave brought together with the
FTC and whether you're talkingabout Meta or Google or Amazon,
I mean, my God, the resourcesthat these companies, some of
(05:37):
the biggest companies in theworld, some of the most
well-resourced companies in theworld the number of lawyers that
they can hire is more lawyersthan probably we have on staff
combined in our two offices.
If you look at the total budgetfor the Michigan Department of
Attorney General and the ArizonaDepartment of Attorney General,
I bet that probably pales incomparison to what they just pay
(06:01):
their lawyers on these casesalone, these companies.
How would we manage it withouthelp from the feds?
Attorney General Kris Mayes (06:17):
I don't know.
This is an area that, as youknow also, I have to bring up my
past as a utility regulatorthat I feel passionately about.
I used to regulate monopoliesand the difference here is these
are, by and large, companiesthat have no regulation unless
you have a strong FTC or astrong DOJ or AGs that are
(06:38):
willing to police them when theyget too big and when they hurt
consumers.
Attorney General Dana Ness (06:43):
Yeah , and that's one of the big
problems that we have, speakingabout utilities and monopolies.
You know we have regulatedmonopolies in Michigan for gas
and electricity, right, propane,whatnot, and we have a huge
problem.
We have some of the highestrates in the country and some of
the worst service.
And even though I, as theattorney general, have the
(07:04):
authority to intervene in thesecases and to challenge them, I
would argue our Michigan PublicService Commission, who makes
those decisions, doesn't haveall the authority they need and
they also don't have, quitehonestly, the guts to really
take on the utilities the waythey should.
And that's bad for consumers,it's bad for service and, of
(07:24):
course, it's bad for the amountsthat our rate payers are stuck
with.
And it's why this kind of thingI mean it's so incredibly
important to have a goodregulator who is strong and
who's not afraid to shy awayfrom the tough fights.
And that's another thing I'llsay about Lina Kahn is sometimes
she got criticized because shelost cases.
(07:46):
But I would argue that's becauseshe took on cases that nobody
else had ever been willing totake on and in doing so, even
when she lost cases, there werelots of companies out there that
were like we're not even goingto attempt this merger because
it's very likely that Lina Kahnis going to take us on if we do
it and we know that we mightlose in court and it's just not
(08:09):
worth it to us.
So it's also the deterrenceeffect of bringing those cases
sometimes.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (08:15):
You know, you make a really, really
good point, which is, when youhave good regulation and a
strong regulator, there's somuch that won't happen, so many
bad things that won't happenthat we will never know didn't
happen.
Right, we're never going toknow how much proposed M&A,
mergers and acquisition, didn'thappen as a result of the fact
(08:38):
that people knew that Lina Kahnwas on the beat, right, and so I
don't know.
I guess I'm still hoping thatthe FTC will maintain the spirit
of Lina Khan.
I'm not convinced, giveneverything that we've seen, but
time will tell.
Time will tell what it lookslike.
Lina Khan (09:16):
Hey there
Attorney General Kris Mayes (09:17):
Hey Lina how are you?
Lina Khan (09:19):
Good, nice to see you again, Kris.
Attorney General Dana Ness (09:24):
yeah , it's so great to meet you
Attorney General Kris Mayes (09:26):
So we are so fortunate to have Lina
Khan uh, the former chairwomanof the FTC, on with us and uh I
I have to say off the top what ahuge fan I am of you, Lina, and
I know Dana is as well, and oneof the highlights of my time as
the Attorney General of Arizona, I think, is always going to be
(09:49):
the work that we had a chanceto do together while you were
the head of the FTC.
I guess my first question toyou is in your time at the FTC,
did you have any favorites orcases that you thought were
amazing and interesting and justsort of really rose to the top
(10:11):
"of Well, wow, this wasfascinating.
Lina Khan (10:15):
Well, first of all, thanks so much for having me on.
I mean, state AGs are such akey partner to the FTC and
really our first line of defenseagainst so much of the
corporate law breaking thatreally hurts people in their
day-to-day lives.
So it was just so grateful toget to work with each of you in
your offices.
I mean, it's hard to pick asingle favorite, there was just
so much activity on all fronts.
(10:36):
I guess I'll pick a couple.
We were very focused on thesethings called non-compete
clauses, these contractualprovisions that basically lock
workers into their current jobby preventing them to go work
for a competitor or go starttheir own business.
And these started off in theboardroom but now affect
security guards and janitors andfast food workers, and we
(10:59):
finalized a rule that would banthese non-competes.
That's now being litigated.
But we also brought somelawsuits, actually, including
one taking on this securityguard company that had imposed
non-competes on security guardsmaking close to minimum wage,
including a whole bunch wholived in Michigan and you know
these security guards, when theyhad better opportunities, were
(11:21):
hit with lawsuits of tens ofthousands of dollars preventing
them from going to switch toanother employer.
So we took action.
The companies ended up droppingnon-competes for thousands of
workers, and so those are peoplethat are now free to be able to
move to other jobs that are abetter fit for them, that are
offering them higher wages.
We were also very focused onsubscription traps.
(11:43):
So companies, increasingly,have made it very easy to sign
up for a subscription, butabsurdly difficult to cancel,
where you have to call somebodyor navigate this maze online and
the goal is to prevent you fromcanceling, so you're stuck
paying hundreds of dollars amonth.
We took action against thosetactics and have also finalized
a rule requiring that companiesmake it as easy to cancel a
(12:04):
subscription as it is to sign up.
So I would say those are twofavorites.
Attorney General Dana Ness (12:07):
When I really learned to understand
the danger of these non-competeclauses it was actually in the
height of COVID and there wereall these nurses that I found
were bound by non-competeclauses, that wanted to work at
multiple different hospitals andthey were prohibited from doing
so.
And I'm like these are justregular nurses that might work
(12:28):
in the ER.
There wasn't some top secret,confidential information that
they had.
I mean, it was terrible tolimit the amount of work that
healthcare professionals coulddo and it just horrified me and
I had no understanding of thatuntil I saw how it was in
practice.
Lina Khan (12:47):
Yeah, that's such a good point, and we actually
heard from thousands ofhealthcare workers across the
country sharing stories justlike that one and noting that,
especially in rural areas,oftentimes the choice they face
is switch employers and abandontheir patients or stay stuck in
a work situation that's not goodfor them, and so non-competes
(13:09):
can just have an outsized effectin really hurting doctors and
healthcare workers' ability tofully provide for their patients
.
Attorney General Kris Ma (13:23):
That's so interesting, so, very true.
So you know,Lina, Lina l L LLna, one of the things Dana and
I were talking about before yougot on was just how important
the FTC is to the states and ourability to bring antitrust
cases.
At a young age, you have reallyrevived antitrust law in
America in a lot of ways and asthe head of the FTC, one of the
things that you did for stateAGs is, you know, really sort of
(13:45):
be the engine that helps tobring the resources to bear on
these incredibly complicatedcases and expensive cases.
Can you speak to that sort ofyour vision of the FTC and why
the FTC is so important toprotecting consumers in that way
?
Lina Khan (14:02):
Yeah, I mean.
The FTC was created 110 yearsago against the backdrop of the
robber barons and the industrialtrusts that had concentrated so
much power and were using thatpower to hurt consumers, to
abuse workers, to really squeezesmall businesses.
And so Congress created theagency to really make sure that
(14:22):
our markets had fair competitionand that firms that had
accumulated a lot of marketpower were not able to abuse
that power and not able to keepother viable businesses out of
the market.
And so there's a long historyhere of the FTC assertively
protecting the American peoplefrom corporate lawbreaking.
The Kroger Albertsons merger isa great example.
(14:44):
That would have been thelargest supermarket merger in US
history, and our investigationfound that it would basically
reduce choices for consumers andshoppers, resulting in higher
prices, and also reduce optionsfor grocery store workers in
ways that would undermine theirpower as well.
And so we were so thrilled toget to partner with your office
(15:05):
and other AGs to file a suit andsuccessfully block that merger
to make sure that, especially ata time where people are being
squeezed and already paying toomuch at the grocery store, we're
not depriving them of morechoice in ways that will lead to
higher prices.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (15:26):
You know.
I wonder if you could talk alittle bit about what's
happening at the FTC now.
And obviously we know thatPresident Trump has, in our
opinion, illegally fired orremoved a couple of the
Democratic-appointedcommissioners from the board of
the FTC I think AG Mayes and Iboth filed amicus briefs on
(15:47):
their behalf and the masslayoffs at the FTC.
What is that going to mean forthe agency and their ability to
protect consumers, protect otherbusinesses and to make sure
that the law is being properlyenforced?
I mean the firing ofcommissioners Slaughter and
Bedoya were extremely troublingand flagrant violation of
(16:08):
existing Supreme Court precedentand it sends a really troubling
sign to try to knock out theDemocratic commissioners.
And it just leads the questionwhy?
What are you trying to do thatyou don't want other people to
get insight into?
(16:28):
And this is all happening justas we're seeing major CEOs and
top executives go to the OvalOffice and seek certain
sweetheart deals, asking forexisting lawsuits to go away,
and it just creates a realdisturbing suggestion that maybe
the law will not be enforcedimpartially, without fear or
(16:48):
favor, but instead could beenforced to punish enemies and
reward friends, and that's oneof the biggest worries I have
right now.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (16:56):
You know I mean I was telling Dana
earlier I noticed a headlinewhere I think the FTC made a
filing in a case where they said, where they were already
involved in the case, where theysaid they weren't going to have
the resources to continueprosecuting the case, and then I
think they backed off of that,if I recall correctly.
(17:17):
Is that the kind of thing weshould be looking at?
Or different results wherethey're not taking cases where
they obviously should take acase or bring a case?
What should we be looking at?
Lina Khan (17:27):
So the FTC has a very active litigation docket right
now because we were so active inthe last few years, and so I
think we all need to monitor,especially in instances where
the agency has already defeatedefforts to dismiss the case.
Are they suspiciously going tojust withdraw those cases or
enter into settlements that areactually doing a disservice to
(17:48):
the public and settling forpennies on the dollar in ways
that really rip the Americanpeople off?
The other thing I'll just givea very specific example.
When I was at the FTC, weinvestigated a big oil merger,
and what we discovered throughthat was that one of the top
CEOs, a gentleman called ScottSheffield, had actually been
(18:08):
privately communicating withOPEC officials and foreigners
about how it might be best ifthey all restrict oil production
so that prices stay high ratherthan low.
And the FTC took action.
We prevented that individualfrom joining the board of Exxon
just to limit his influence andprevent him from replicating
(18:29):
these tactics at an even biggerfirm.
And recently I just saw the FTCis now asking whether they
should in fact withdraw thatorder and allow this executive
to get away scot-free.
And so you know, some of thisis kind of in the trenches and
the weeds, but that's exactlythe type of thing I'm worried
about.
Attorney General Kris Maye (18:48):
That is fascinating.
And this is one of the mostfascinating things I think about
you, which is that you havemanaged to do what very few
leaders in American societytoday have done, which is you
(19:09):
have built popularity andsupport among both Republicans
and Democrats and independentsall three areas.
People on both sides of theaisle love your work and you had
almost a cult following, Ithink amongst even some
Republicans.
One could say People really,really like what you're doing.
I think it speaks to theimportance of what you were and
(19:31):
are doing.
Why do you think that is?
I mean, obviously I have my owntheories, but what do you think
was going on there?
Lina Khan (19:43):
I mean it's a really fascinating part of this work
that there is a real organichunger to take on corporate
abuse, right.
I mean, nobody likes gettingripped off, be it at the grocery
store, be it by our healthcaresystem.
And I think when you have, youknow, government leaders
standing up to corporate abuseand kind of protecting people
from that type of lawbreaking inways that's really designed to
make people's lives better,right, be it protecting them
(20:04):
from illegal surveillance bydata brokers that are kind of
harvesting data on kids, be it,you know, making sure that our
healthcare markets are fair andcompetitive so that you don't
have big pharma companies or bigmiddlemen illegally jacking up
the price of life-saving drugs.
I mean, this work just has deeppopularity and I think people
(20:26):
feel that for too long,especially at the federal
government level, you know, wehad too much timidity and kind
of a willingness to go hardagainst the small players, but
kind of looking away when it wasreally big companies that were
violating the law.
And so we brought an approachthat was even handed and said
look, if you're violating thelaw and hurting the American
(20:47):
people, we're going to takeaction.
Attorney General Kris Maye (20:49):
That is really, really true.
One other thing I wanted to askyou about while we have the
chance is and you dealt withthis aggressively, I think,
while you were the head of theFTC is just the growth of
technology and the use oftechnology to harm consumers.
How do we both guard againstthat but not stifle technology
(21:12):
and the growth of technology andcommerce?
Lina Khan (21:15):
Yeah, I mean, look, technological progress and
innovation have huge capacity tomake people's lives better.
I think what we were looking tobe vigilant around was making
sure that these technologieswere not being abused and that
firms weren't using the claimsof innovation to actually cover
for what is lawbreaking, and sowe were very focused on making
(21:37):
sure that these AI tools are notbeing abused.
We already were seeing a surgein complaints around things like
voice cloning, where peoplewere using AI tools to pretend
to be somebody's grandkid orchild in distress and ask for
thousands of dollars to be wiredover, and that's something that
(21:59):
we've kind of vigorously soughtto crack down on.
I think another big source ofabuse that we've seen is just
all of the personal data that'sbeing collected on all of us
every day, including verypersonal data like geolocation
data, your entire browserhistory, sometimes your health
data, and for that type ofinformation to be just sold
(22:23):
online to the highest bidderleads to so much abuse.
Be it, you know, stalking tokind of vigilante justice, where
this stuff is being used toprosecute women who are making
personal choices about theirmedical care, and so you know, I
think there's a lot of progressthat can come with these new
technological innovations, butalso abuse, and that's what we
(22:44):
needed to guard against.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (22:46):
In an alternate universe, if
President Harris had reappointedyou to your position, what
would be the type of stuff thatyou would be looking most
closely at right now and, if youcould, what kind of cases?
You don't have to name specificcompanies, but what would you
really be cracking down on nowthat you view to be the biggest
threat, not just to consumersbut, as we've talked about, to
(23:10):
just traditional, non-cronyforms of capitalism where you
have true competition?
Lina Khan (23:16):
So we've all seen that housing costs have become a
big pain point for people overthe last few years, and the type
of work that AG Mayes has doneto make sure that landlords are
not using algorithms to pricefix is incredibly important.
At the FTC, we also werelooking very closely at certain
cities and regions where biginstitutional hedge funds had
(23:39):
actually bought up a lot ofhousing and that was
contributing as well to higherprices and worse conditions.
We brought several lawsuitsagainst some of the biggest
corporate landlords for allsorts of abusive practices where
they would advertise one rentso that people would then pay
the application fee, but then,once they signed the lease, they
realized that there werehundreds and sometimes thousands
(24:01):
of dollars in additional fees,like a portal fee that you have
to pay just to pay your rent ora waste management fee, and this
really was, you know,recruiting the tenants that
didn't know they'd be on thehook for so much money.
So I think just generallycontinuing to focus on housing
would have been a big priority.
I think our work onnon-competes was great, but
(24:22):
there are a lot of ways thatAmerican workers are getting
nickeled and dimed and pushedaround and messed around.
We are very focused on these gigplatforms that can again
provide benefits but also reallyabuse their power.
One thing that I was mostexcited to get to keep working
on, if we'd had more time, wasthis issue of surveillance
(24:43):
pricing, where companies can useall of our personal data to
actually set person-specificprices, so they could know, for
example, that you just got anemail announcing funeral
arrangements for a loved one whopassed away, and so you need to
buy a plane ticket, and maybethey could charge you higher
prices because you know thatyou're buying something with not
(25:05):
a lot of time.
Or maybe they know that afamily has a nut allergy, and so
they charge that family ahigher price for the nut-free
cereal, right?
I mean, we're quickly enteringinto a world where the type of
data these companies have aboutus can allow them to exploit our
specific needs and behaviors,and so I think that's something
to monitor.
(25:25):
We also could see that on thewage side, where different
workers could be paid differentamounts for the exact same work
just based on their data profile, and so I think that's
something we're going to have tokeep monitoring.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (25:38):
And how will it ever be affordable
for any of us to go to a TaylorSwift concert ever again?
Lina Khan (25:46):
I know Great question .
So the Justice Department fileda lawsuit against Ticketmaster,
claiming all sorts of illegalpractices that kept the
competition out.
At the FTC we also finalized arule requiring that these
companies actually be honestabout what the price is.
So often, be it on Ticketmasteror other platforms, you see a
(26:07):
ticket for $75, but then by thetime you check out it's actually
$130.
And it's almost double theprice just through service fees
and convenience fees and allthese fees that you don't
actually know what you'regetting and they're unavoidable.
And so we finalized a rule thatsays you have t f pricing.
(26:40):
What are you doing now, and whatkinds of things can we expect
coming from you in the nearfuture?
One of the things that I'm mostfocused on is making sure we're
fully harnessing the interestand energy among young people
and young lawyers and collegestudents.
I mean, I get dozens of emailsa week from students saying you
(27:01):
know, I saw the work about theFTC and I want to be a trust
buster, and how do I do that?
And so I think there's big needto create infrastructure to
make sure that we have more of astanding army of people who can
kind of come in and help usgovern in ways that fully
protect people from corporateabuse.
So that's something I'll bedoing.
I think there's actually juststill a lot more kind of policy
(27:22):
and research and intellectualwork that needs to be done to
fully uncover the full set oftools that we're going to need
to use in government.
If, hopefully, we get anotherchance to govern again at the
federal level, and especially asour agencies are being
dismantled, figuring out whatthat should all look like on the
other side is going to bereally important too.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (27:41):
But that worries me too.
Dana and I and the otherDemocratic AGs are working our
hearts out to try to prevent theTrump administration from
illegally firing thousands, ifnot tens of thousands, of
federal workers, most of whomare doing a fantastic job.
But what does that look likeafter all of this happens, and
how do we rebuild?
Lina Khan (28:02):
It's such a key question.
I mean, look at the ConsumerFinancial Protection Bureau I
know you know both of you haveworked with.
They've totally dismantled thatand are looking to fire you
know the vast majority of peoplethere and that's going to take
a while to rebuild.
But I think it's also going tobe important to figure out how
do we make sure that the genuineobstacles that agencies do have
(28:25):
to act more quickly and to makesure that agencies are actually
able to materially improvepeople's lives in ways that are
immediately visible.
I think we're going to have tofix for that, because I do worry
one of the things that createdan opening for Musk and his
cronies to kind of come in andwith the chainsaw was that
people sometimes don't fully seeall the ways that government is
(28:48):
helping them in a day-to-daysense, and so to the extent
there were obstacles to thatself-imposed red tape or other
kind of ways that oftentimescorporate interests are limiting
the capacity of government,that we're kind of clear-eyed
about making sure we're takingthat on too.
Attorney General Dana Ness (29:04):
Well , we appreciate all the hard
work that you did at the FTC forthe time that you were there,
and your other governmentservice as well, and I think I
speak for both myself and AGMayes when we say that we hope
to see you someday back ingovernment service, because the
work that you did in the timethat you were with the federal
(29:25):
government was just absolutelybreathtaking.
Attorney General Kris Maye (29:28):
Same here from Arizona.
Arizonans, love you, come backand see us soon.
Lina Khan (29:32):
Well, thanks to each of you I mean your offices and
your teams just do such criticalwork, and I know that is due to
your kind of courageousleadership and standing up to
the biggest interest, even whenit, you know, means upsetting
some folks.
Attorney General Dana Ness (30:01):
Well , that's all the time we have.
So, for more information and tostay up to date on our ongoing
lawsuits, be sure to check ourdepartment websites and, of
course, follow us on socialmedia .
Attorney General Kris May (30:08):
we'll be back soon with more
discussions about the latest andgreatest legal news impacting
american communities like yours.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (30:15):
So thanks for listening to
Pantsuits and Lawsuits and we'llsee you next time.
Welcome back to Pantsuits and Lawsuits,
your favorite podcast, to hearabout the pressing legal issues
making waves in America today.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (00:15):
And we are so happy to have Arizona
General Kris Mayes back fortoday's episode.
I don't know if last time, ifyou were sick or on vacation, or
maybe you temporarily joined acult or you know you're hiking
the Appalachian Trail, as itwere.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (00:30):
I don't know, I checked my
calendar.
I was actually on a plane on myway back from Oregon where we
had our AG Town Hall up therewith Dan Rayfield.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (00:40):
So that's where it was.
That's a likely excuse.
Attorney General Kris Maye (00:42):
I'll have to see video to confirm
that, but we're happy to haveyou back here today Thank you,
dana and our focus for today'sdiscussion is going to be
antitrust and monopoly law.
So let's get started.
As everybody knows, consumerprotection is a crucial pillar
of our work as attorneys general.
(01:02):
You have a right to be treatedfairly when you spend your
hard-earned money, and antitrustmonopoly laws exist to keep
businesses honest, protect theinterests of workers and
consumers and, frankly, togenerate competition and
innovation among entrepreneurs.
Attorney General Dana Ness (01:20):
Yeah , and later in the episode we
are so excited to have on formerchair of the Federal Trade
Commission, Lina Kahn, to talkabout how our state AG offices
work in concert with the FederalGovernment to protect our
economy against the threat ofmonopolies.
And, of course, the FTC is thefederal government's main
enforcer of federal consumerprotection laws.
And the FTC works with stateAGs to protect consumers from
(01:47):
fraud, deception and so manyother unlawful business
practices.
We think a lot about what theworld is going to look like, and
actually starting to look like,without a lot of the federal
agency involvement that we'reused to, and what it looks like
to have the states justoperating on their own, when
we're used to teaming up withthe FTC.
(02:08):
And I will say from theperspective of the state of
Michigan I don't know how elseto phrase this we're just
screwed.
We are absolutely screwedwithout the FTC.
There are a lot of differences,I think, between Michigan and
Arizona.
Arizona, from what I can tell,has some pretty substantial
consumer protection laws andregulations and in Michigan we
(02:30):
absolutely don't.
We're one of the worst
Attorney General Kris Mayes (02:33):
Is that right?
So is that both on the consumerfraud level and the antitrust
level, or just antitrust laws.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (02:42):
No, it's both.
We had some really bad rulingsfor a time period where we
called it the Engler Court.
John Engler was a three-termgovernor before you couldn't
have three-term governorsanymore.
Extremely conservative,extremely pro-business,
anti-consumer, I would argue.
And he stocked the MichiganSupreme Court and they took many
(03:04):
of our consumer protection lawsthose at least that existed and
just defanged them in every waypossible to make it almost
impossible to bring consumerprotection actions under the
state law, which is why we haveto rely on the feds so often on
these lawsuits.
And but for us working with theFTC, a lot of the lawsuits that
(03:26):
you potentially couldindependently bring in Arizona,
we can't bring it all inMichigan.
Attorney General Kris Ma (03:32):
That's insane.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (03:33):
So you know, I look at a lot of
the things that we've workedwith the FTC on, including
things like hospital mergers,which I'm sure you're facing in
Arizona as well, and just howdetrimental that is for
healthcare.
And it's not just the price, ofcourse, that consumers have to
pay, it's the fact thathospitals just are eliminated
(03:56):
wholesale and in more ruralareas just don't exist at all
anymore.
Attorney General Kris Maye (04:02):
Yeah , I mean absolutely true.
And even here in Arizona, wherewe have pretty good consumer
fraud laws and an antitrust law,like most states that have both
of those, we still depend onthe FTC for a lot of I don't
know, for lack of a better wordhorsepower.
(04:23):
And, as you know, likeantitrust cases are amongst the
most expensive cases to bring,you have to have economics
experts.
You know almost always have tohave an economist on board, not
necessarily the case when youhave just a pure consumer fraud
case against a company or anindividual, but antitrust cases
(04:46):
are really complicated and so onthe Kroger Albertsons case, we
joined the FTC in suing to blockthat proposed merger on
antitrust grounds and othergrounds and I don't know that we
could have done that casewithout the FTC, which paid for
(05:06):
a lot of the experts that wereally needed in that case.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (05:11):
And even, as you suggested, even
where you do have the laws inplace, we just don't have the
staff for it.
Attorney General Kris May (05:16):
Right .
Attorney General Dana Nesse (05:16):
And again I mean, can you imagine
the cost of hiring these expertwitnesses that you absolutely
need to have to challenge thesecases?
And I look at the cases that wehave brought together with the
FTC and whether you're talkingabout Meta or Google or Amazon,
I mean, my God, the resourcesthat these companies, some of
(05:37):
the biggest companies in theworld, some of the most
well-resourced companies in theworld the number of lawyers that
they can hire is more lawyersthan probably we have on staff
combined in our two offices.
If you look at the total budgetfor the Michigan Department of
Attorney General and the ArizonaDepartment of Attorney General,
I bet that probably pales incomparison to what they just pay
(06:01):
their lawyers on these casesalone, these companies.
How would we manage it withouthelp from the feds?
Attorney General Kris Mayes (06:17):
I don't know.
This is an area that, as youknow also, I have to bring up my
past as a utility regulatorthat I feel passionately about.
I used to regulate monopoliesand the difference here is these
are, by and large, companiesthat have no regulation unless
you have a strong FTC or astrong DOJ or AGs that are
(06:38):
willing to police them when theyget too big and when they hurt
consumers.
Attorney General Dana Ness (06:43):
Yeah , and that's one of the big
problems that we have, speakingabout utilities and monopolies.
You know we have regulatedmonopolies in Michigan for gas
and electricity, right, propane,whatnot, and we have a huge
problem.
We have some of the highestrates in the country and some of
the worst service.
And even though I, as theattorney general, have the
(07:04):
authority to intervene in thesecases and to challenge them, I
would argue our Michigan PublicService Commission, who makes
those decisions, doesn't haveall the authority they need and
they also don't have, quitehonestly, the guts to really
take on the utilities the waythey should.
And that's bad for consumers,it's bad for service and, of
(07:24):
course, it's bad for the amountsthat our rate payers are stuck
with.
And it's why this kind of thingI mean it's so incredibly
important to have a goodregulator who is strong and
who's not afraid to shy awayfrom the tough fights.
And that's another thing I'llsay about Lina Kahn is sometimes
she got criticized because shelost cases.
(07:46):
But I would argue that's becauseshe took on cases that nobody
else had ever been willing totake on and in doing so, even
when she lost cases, there werelots of companies out there that
were like we're not even goingto attempt this merger because
it's very likely that Lina Kahnis going to take us on if we do
it and we know that we mightlose in court and it's just not
(08:09):
worth it to us.
So it's also the deterrenceeffect of bringing those cases
sometimes.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (08:15):
You know, you make a really, really
good point, which is, when youhave good regulation and a
strong regulator, there's somuch that won't happen, so many
bad things that won't happenthat we will never know didn't
happen.
Right, we're never going toknow how much proposed M&A,
mergers and acquisition, didn'thappen as a result of the fact
(08:38):
that people knew that Lina Kahnwas on the beat, right, and so I
don't know.
I guess I'm still hoping thatthe FTC will maintain the spirit
of Lina Khan.
I'm not convinced, giveneverything that we've seen, but
time will tell.
Time will tell what it lookslike.
Lina Khan (09:16):
Hey there
Attorney General Kris Mayes (09:17):
Hey Lina how are you?
Lina Khan (09:19):
Good, nice to see you again, Kris.
Attorney General Dana Ness (09:24):
yeah , it's so great to meet you
Attorney General Kris Mayes (09:26):
So we are so fortunate to have Lina
Khan uh, the former chairwomanof the FTC, on with us and uh I
I have to say off the top what ahuge fan I am of you, Lina, and
I know Dana is as well, and oneof the highlights of my time as
the Attorney General of Arizona, I think, is always going to be
(09:49):
the work that we had a chanceto do together while you were
the head of the FTC.
I guess my first question toyou is in your time at the FTC,
did you have any favorites orcases that you thought were
amazing and interesting and justsort of really rose to the top
(10:11):
"of Well, wow, this wasfascinating.
Lina Khan (10:15):
Well, first of all, thanks so much for having me on.
I mean, state AGs are such akey partner to the FTC and
really our first line of defenseagainst so much of the
corporate law breaking thatreally hurts people in their
day-to-day lives.
So it was just so grateful toget to work with each of you in
your offices.
I mean, it's hard to pick asingle favorite, there was just
so much activity on all fronts.
(10:36):
I guess I'll pick a couple.
We were very focused on thesethings called non-compete
clauses, these contractualprovisions that basically lock
workers into their current jobby preventing them to go work
for a competitor or go starttheir own business.
And these started off in theboardroom but now affect
security guards and janitors andfast food workers, and we
(10:59):
finalized a rule that would banthese non-competes.
That's now being litigated.
But we also brought somelawsuits, actually, including
one taking on this securityguard company that had imposed
non-competes on security guardsmaking close to minimum wage,
including a whole bunch wholived in Michigan and you know
these security guards, when theyhad better opportunities, were
(11:21):
hit with lawsuits of tens ofthousands of dollars preventing
them from going to switch toanother employer.
So we took action.
The companies ended up droppingnon-competes for thousands of
workers, and so those are peoplethat are now free to be able to
move to other jobs that are abetter fit for them, that are
offering them higher wages.
We were also very focused onsubscription traps.
(11:43):
So companies, increasingly,have made it very easy to sign
up for a subscription, butabsurdly difficult to cancel,
where you have to call somebodyor navigate this maze online and
the goal is to prevent you fromcanceling, so you're stuck
paying hundreds of dollars amonth.
We took action against thosetactics and have also finalized
a rule requiring that companiesmake it as easy to cancel a
(12:04):
subscription as it is to sign up.
So I would say those are twofavorites.
Attorney General Dana Ness (12:07):
When I really learned to understand
the danger of these non-competeclauses it was actually in the
height of COVID and there wereall these nurses that I found
were bound by non-competeclauses, that wanted to work at
multiple different hospitals andthey were prohibited from doing
so.
And I'm like these are justregular nurses that might work
(12:28):
in the ER.
There wasn't some top secret,confidential information that
they had.
I mean, it was terrible tolimit the amount of work that
healthcare professionals coulddo and it just horrified me and
I had no understanding of thatuntil I saw how it was in
practice.
Lina Khan (12:47):
Yeah, that's such a good point, and we actually
heard from thousands ofhealthcare workers across the
country sharing stories justlike that one and noting that,
especially in rural areas,oftentimes the choice they face
is switch employers and abandontheir patients or stay stuck in
a work situation that's not goodfor them, and so non-competes
(13:09):
can just have an outsized effectin really hurting doctors and
healthcare workers' ability tofully provide for their patients
.
Attorney General Kris Ma (13:23):
That's so interesting, so, very true.
So you know,Lina, Lina l L LLna, one of the things Dana and
I were talking about before yougot on was just how important
the FTC is to the states and ourability to bring antitrust
cases.
At a young age, you have reallyrevived antitrust law in
America in a lot of ways and asthe head of the FTC, one of the
things that you did for stateAGs is, you know, really sort of
(13:45):
be the engine that helps tobring the resources to bear on
these incredibly complicatedcases and expensive cases.
Can you speak to that sort ofyour vision of the FTC and why
the FTC is so important toprotecting consumers in that way
?
Lina Khan (14:02):
Yeah, I mean.
The FTC was created 110 yearsago against the backdrop of the
robber barons and the industrialtrusts that had concentrated so
much power and were using thatpower to hurt consumers, to
abuse workers, to really squeezesmall businesses.
And so Congress created theagency to really make sure that
(14:22):
our markets had fair competitionand that firms that had
accumulated a lot of marketpower were not able to abuse
that power and not able to keepother viable businesses out of
the market.
And so there's a long historyhere of the FTC assertively
protecting the American peoplefrom corporate lawbreaking.
The Kroger Albertsons merger isa great example.
(14:44):
That would have been thelargest supermarket merger in US
history, and our investigationfound that it would basically
reduce choices for consumers andshoppers, resulting in higher
prices, and also reduce optionsfor grocery store workers in
ways that would undermine theirpower as well.
And so we were so thrilled toget to partner with your office
(15:05):
and other AGs to file a suit andsuccessfully block that merger
to make sure that, especially ata time where people are being
squeezed and already paying toomuch at the grocery store, we're
not depriving them of morechoice in ways that will lead to
higher prices.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (15:26):
You know.
I wonder if you could talk alittle bit about what's
happening at the FTC now.
And obviously we know thatPresident Trump has, in our
opinion, illegally fired orremoved a couple of the
Democratic-appointedcommissioners from the board of
the FTC I think AG Mayes and Iboth filed amicus briefs on
(15:47):
their behalf and the masslayoffs at the FTC.
What is that going to mean forthe agency and their ability to
protect consumers, protect otherbusinesses and to make sure
that the law is being properlyenforced?
I mean the firing ofcommissioners Slaughter and
Bedoya were extremely troublingand flagrant violation of
(16:08):
existing Supreme Court precedentand it sends a really troubling
sign to try to knock out theDemocratic commissioners.
And it just leads the questionwhy?
What are you trying to do thatyou don't want other people to
get insight into?
(16:28):
And this is all happening justas we're seeing major CEOs and
top executives go to the OvalOffice and seek certain
sweetheart deals, asking forexisting lawsuits to go away,
and it just creates a realdisturbing suggestion that maybe
the law will not be enforcedimpartially, without fear or
(16:48):
favor, but instead could beenforced to punish enemies and
reward friends, and that's oneof the biggest worries I have
right now.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (16:56):
You know I mean I was telling Dana
earlier I noticed a headlinewhere I think the FTC made a
filing in a case where they said, where they were already
involved in the case, where theysaid they weren't going to have
the resources to continueprosecuting the case, and then I
think they backed off of that,if I recall correctly.
(17:17):
Is that the kind of thing weshould be looking at?
Or different results wherethey're not taking cases where
they obviously should take acase or bring a case?
What should we be looking at?
Lina Khan (17:27):
So the FTC has a very active litigation docket right
now because we were so active inthe last few years, and so I
think we all need to monitor,especially in instances where
the agency has already defeatedefforts to dismiss the case.
Are they suspiciously going tojust withdraw those cases or
enter into settlements that areactually doing a disservice to
(17:48):
the public and settling forpennies on the dollar in ways
that really rip the Americanpeople off?
The other thing I'll just givea very specific example.
When I was at the FTC, weinvestigated a big oil merger,
and what we discovered throughthat was that one of the top
CEOs, a gentleman called ScottSheffield, had actually been
(18:08):
privately communicating withOPEC officials and foreigners
about how it might be best ifthey all restrict oil production
so that prices stay high ratherthan low.
And the FTC took action.
We prevented that individualfrom joining the board of Exxon
just to limit his influence andprevent him from replicating
(18:29):
these tactics at an even biggerfirm.
And recently I just saw the FTCis now asking whether they
should in fact withdraw thatorder and allow this executive
to get away scot-free.
And so you know, some of thisis kind of in the trenches and
the weeds, but that's exactlythe type of thing I'm worried
about.
Attorney General Kris Maye (18:48):
That is fascinating.
And this is one of the mostfascinating things I think about
you, which is that you havemanaged to do what very few
leaders in American societytoday have done, which is you
(19:09):
have built popularity andsupport among both Republicans
and Democrats and independentsall three areas.
People on both sides of theaisle love your work and you had
almost a cult following, Ithink amongst even some
Republicans.
One could say People really,really like what you're doing.
I think it speaks to theimportance of what you were and
(19:31):
are doing.
Why do you think that is?
I mean, obviously I have my owntheories, but what do you think
was going on there?
Lina Khan (19:43):
I mean it's a really fascinating part of this work
that there is a real organichunger to take on corporate
abuse, right.
I mean, nobody likes gettingripped off, be it at the grocery
store, be it by our healthcaresystem.
And I think when you have, youknow, government leaders
standing up to corporate abuseand kind of protecting people
from that type of lawbreaking inways that's really designed to
make people's lives better,right, be it protecting them
(20:04):
from illegal surveillance bydata brokers that are kind of
harvesting data on kids, be it,you know, making sure that our
healthcare markets are fair andcompetitive so that you don't
have big pharma companies or bigmiddlemen illegally jacking up
the price of life-saving drugs.
I mean, this work just has deeppopularity and I think people
(20:26):
feel that for too long,especially at the federal
government level, you know, wehad too much timidity and kind
of a willingness to go hardagainst the small players, but
kind of looking away when it wasreally big companies that were
violating the law.
And so we brought an approachthat was even handed and said
look, if you're violating thelaw and hurting the American
(20:47):
people, we're going to takeaction.
Attorney General Kris Maye (20:49):
That is really, really true.
One other thing I wanted to askyou about while we have the
chance is and you dealt withthis aggressively, I think,
while you were the head of theFTC is just the growth of
technology and the use oftechnology to harm consumers.
How do we both guard againstthat but not stifle technology
(21:12):
and the growth of technology andcommerce?
Lina Khan (21:15):
Yeah, I mean, look, technological progress and
innovation have huge capacity tomake people's lives better.
I think what we were looking tobe vigilant around was making
sure that these technologieswere not being abused and that
firms weren't using the claimsof innovation to actually cover
for what is lawbreaking, and sowe were very focused on making
(21:37):
sure that these AI tools are notbeing abused.
We already were seeing a surgein complaints around things like
voice cloning, where peoplewere using AI tools to pretend
to be somebody's grandkid orchild in distress and ask for
thousands of dollars to be wiredover, and that's something that
(21:59):
we've kind of vigorously soughtto crack down on.
I think another big source ofabuse that we've seen is just
all of the personal data that'sbeing collected on all of us
every day, including verypersonal data like geolocation
data, your entire browserhistory, sometimes your health
data, and for that type ofinformation to be just sold
(22:23):
online to the highest bidderleads to so much abuse.
Be it, you know, stalking tokind of vigilante justice, where
this stuff is being used toprosecute women who are making
personal choices about theirmedical care, and so you know, I
think there's a lot of progressthat can come with these new
technological innovations, butalso abuse, and that's what we
(22:44):
needed to guard against.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (22:46):
In an alternate universe, if
President Harris had reappointedyou to your position, what
would be the type of stuff thatyou would be looking most
closely at right now and, if youcould, what kind of cases?
You don't have to name specificcompanies, but what would you
really be cracking down on nowthat you view to be the biggest
threat, not just to consumersbut, as we've talked about, to
(23:10):
just traditional, non-cronyforms of capitalism where you
have true competition?
Lina Khan (23:16):
So we've all seen that housing costs have become a
big pain point for people overthe last few years, and the type
of work that AG Mayes has doneto make sure that landlords are
not using algorithms to pricefix is incredibly important.
At the FTC, we also werelooking very closely at certain
cities and regions where biginstitutional hedge funds had
(23:39):
actually bought up a lot ofhousing and that was
contributing as well to higherprices and worse conditions.
We brought several lawsuitsagainst some of the biggest
corporate landlords for allsorts of abusive practices where
they would advertise one rentso that people would then pay
the application fee, but then,once they signed the lease, they
realized that there werehundreds and sometimes thousands
(24:01):
of dollars in additional fees,like a portal fee that you have
to pay just to pay your rent ora waste management fee, and this
really was, you know,recruiting the tenants that
didn't know they'd be on thehook for so much money.
So I think just generallycontinuing to focus on housing
would have been a big priority.
I think our work onnon-competes was great, but
(24:22):
there are a lot of ways thatAmerican workers are getting
nickeled and dimed and pushedaround and messed around.
We are very focused on these gigplatforms that can again
provide benefits but also reallyabuse their power.
One thing that I was mostexcited to get to keep working
on, if we'd had more time, wasthis issue of surveillance
(24:43):
pricing, where companies can useall of our personal data to
actually set person-specificprices, so they could know, for
example, that you just got anemail announcing funeral
arrangements for a loved one whopassed away, and so you need to
buy a plane ticket, and maybethey could charge you higher
prices because you know thatyou're buying something with not
(25:05):
a lot of time.
Or maybe they know that afamily has a nut allergy, and so
they charge that family ahigher price for the nut-free
cereal, right?
I mean, we're quickly enteringinto a world where the type of
data these companies have aboutus can allow them to exploit our
specific needs and behaviors,and so I think that's something
to monitor.
(25:25):
We also could see that on thewage side, where different
workers could be paid differentamounts for the exact same work
just based on their data profile, and so I think that's
something we're going to have tokeep monitoring.
Attorney General Dana Nesse (25:38):
And how will it ever be affordable
for any of us to go to a TaylorSwift concert ever again?
Lina Khan (25:46):
I know Great question .
So the Justice Department fileda lawsuit against Ticketmaster,
claiming all sorts of illegalpractices that kept the
competition out.
At the FTC we also finalized arule requiring that these
companies actually be honestabout what the price is.
So often, be it on Ticketmasteror other platforms, you see a
(26:07):
ticket for $75, but then by thetime you check out it's actually
$130.
And it's almost double theprice just through service fees
and convenience fees and allthese fees that you don't
actually know what you'regetting and they're unavoidable.
And so we finalized a rule thatsays you have t f pricing.
(26:40):
What are you doing now, and whatkinds of things can we expect
coming from you in the nearfuture?
One of the things that I'm mostfocused on is making sure we're
fully harnessing the interestand energy among young people
and young lawyers and collegestudents.
I mean, I get dozens of emailsa week from students saying you
(27:01):
know, I saw the work about theFTC and I want to be a trust
buster, and how do I do that?
And so I think there's big needto create infrastructure to
make sure that we have more of astanding army of people who can
kind of come in and help usgovern in ways that fully
protect people from corporateabuse.
So that's something I'll bedoing.
I think there's actually juststill a lot more kind of policy
(27:22):
and research and intellectualwork that needs to be done to
fully uncover the full set oftools that we're going to need
to use in government.
If, hopefully, we get anotherchance to govern again at the
federal level, and especially asour agencies are being
dismantled, figuring out whatthat should all look like on the
other side is going to bereally important too.
Attorney General Kris Mayes (27:41):
But that worries me too.
Dana and I and the otherDemocratic AGs are working our
hearts out to try to prevent theTrump administration from
illegally firing thousands, ifnot tens of thousands, of
federal workers, most of whomare doing a fantastic job.
But what does that look likeafter all of this happens, and
how do we rebuild?
Lina Khan (28:02):
It's such a key question.
I mean, look at the ConsumerFinancial Protection Bureau I
know you know both of you haveworked with.
They've totally dismantled thatand are looking to fire you
know the vast majority of peoplethere and that's going to take
a while to rebuild.
But I think it's also going tobe important to figure out how
do we make sure that the genuineobstacles that agencies do have
(28:25):
to act more quickly and to makesure that agencies are actually
able to materially improvepeople's lives in ways that are
immediately visible.
I think we're going to have tofix for that, because I do worry
one of the things that createdan opening for Musk and his
cronies to kind of come in andwith the chainsaw was that
people sometimes don't fully seeall the ways that government is
(28:48):
helping them in a day-to-daysense, and so to the extent
there were obstacles to thatself-imposed red tape or other
kind of ways that oftentimescorporate interests are limiting
the capacity of government,that we're kind of clear-eyed
about making sure we're takingthat on too.
Attorney General Dana Ness (29:04):
Well , we appreciate all the hard
work that you did at the FTC forthe time that you were there,
and your other governmentservice as well, and I think I
speak for both myself and AGMayes when we say that we hope
to see you someday back ingovernment service, because the
work that you did in the timethat you were with the federal
(29:25):
government was just absolutelybreathtaking.
Attorney General Kris Maye (29:28):
Same here from Arizona.
Arizonans, love you, come backand see us soon.
Lina Khan (29:32):
Well, thanks to each of you I mean your offices and
your teams just do such criticalwork, and I know that is due to
your kind of courageousleadership and standing up to
the biggest interest, even whenit, you know, means upsetting
some folks.
Attorney General Dana Ness (30:01):
Well , that's all the time we have.
So, for more information and tostay up to date on our ongoing
lawsuits, be sure to check ourdepartment websites and, of
course, follow us on socialmedia .
Attorney General Kris May (30:08):
we'll be back soon with more
discussions about the latest andgreatest legal news impacting
american communities like yours.
Attorney General Dana Nessel (30:15):
So thanks for listening to
Pantsuits and Lawsuits and we'llsee you next time.
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