March 23, 2025 • 40 mins
What happens when a beloved sports identity collides with evolving cultural awareness? In this candid conversation with Papamutes, Jack Moore—host of Moore to Consider podcast and lifelong Washington football fan—takes us on a journey through the controversial transition from Redskins to Commanders.
Moore offers a fascinating historical perspective on the team's origins, tracing the Redskins name back to 1932 when the franchise began as the Boston Braves before moving to Washington in 1937. He explains how the iconic Indian head logo came to be, designed by Walter "Blackie" Wetzel of the Blackfeet Nation and based on the profile that appeared on the Buffalo nickel. This history provides crucial context for understanding why many fans felt deeply connected to the original identity.
The conversation doesn't shy away from the complexities surrounding Native American representation in sports. Moore references polls showing mixed opinions within Native communities, shares stories of students on reservations proudly wearing Redskins gear, and discusses the contrasting example of Florida State's partnership with the Seminole Tribe. These nuances highlight why the debate transcends simple categorizations of right and wrong.
Perhaps most compelling is Moore's personal story as a fan who witnessed the team's evolution—from attending the first game at RFK Stadium in 1969 to seeing the stadium filled with opposing fans in recent years. His emotional connection to players like Art Monk, Darrell Green, and Sonny Jurgensen demonstrates how team identities become intertwined with our personal histories and memories.
Whether you're a football historian, a Washington fan, or someone interested in the intersection of sports and cultural identity, this episode provides valuable perspective on one of the most significant rebranding stories in professional sports. How do we balance tradition with progress? Who gets to decide when a name becomes unacceptable? Listen now and join the conversation.
photos courtesy; j. moore
“THE OPINIONS EXPRESSED OR VIEWS EXPRESSED BY GUESTS DO NOT NECESSARILY REFLECT OR REPRESENT THOSE OF THE HOST;
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to Unmuted with Papa Mutes.
Welcome to Papa Mutes everybody.
Today, my guest is Jack Moore.
Jack is host of More toConsider podcast, where Jack
discusses football history andthe law.
Jack is an avid WashingtonCommanders fan and he's here
today to talk about theWashington football team and
their name change from theRedskins to the Commanders back
(00:24):
in 2022.
Jack, good to have you aboard.
Welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Thank you, sir, appreciate being here.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
So a little background.
I'm in Philly but I'm fromPittsburgh, so growing up, you
know I'm a Steeler fan,obviously, and my wife and kids
were born here, so they're Eaglefans.
I mean, I'm surrounded by Eaglefans, sure, I have no choice,
but it's fine, it's fine.
So I'm kind of a backdoor Eaglefan is my point.
(00:51):
In fact, back in you may knowthis as a historian back in 43,
I believe, the Stegals, theStegals, exactly right.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah, it's an interesting story.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
I know the Stegals Exactly right.
Yeah, it's an interesting story, yeah, I know it's fascinating.
And then they, you know, gotback to single names and Eagles
and Steelers.
So I bring it up because theynever really had a an issue with
the name.
You know, it's pretty, prettybasic Steelers, eagles, unlike
the Redskins through the year.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
I think they were the Boston Braves, right, initially
.
Yeah, okay, 1932, they're theBoston Braves and they play in
the Boston Braves NationalLeague Stadium.
So I did.
I'm constantly doing researchon this whole history and story
and it sort of makes sense to methat George Preston Marshall,
who I believe was born in WestVirginia but he grows up in DC,
is the owner of the team and hehas a real love-hate
relationship probably more hatewith Boston as a venue for the
(01:53):
team.
So they're playing at the BraveStadium.
They're not getting goodattendance, so they moved to
Fenway.
Now there's a little bit to thehistory of why the name changed
to Redskins, but part of it,from what I understand and I've
seen this documented indifferent places, maybe it's
being true is a friend was likeBoston Braves, you got a bad
(02:14):
taste in your mouth.
Now you're in Fenway Red Sox,redskins.
Hey, that makes sense.
So the Redskins was in part abreak from the Braves.
Keep the Indian imagery, theNative American imagery, but
call it the Redskins.
It kind of makes sense.
Red Sox to Redskins.
Since you were the Bravesplaying in Boston Then in the
(02:34):
1936 NFL championship, theattendance has gotten so bad.
They the Boston, now Redskinshave the opportunity to host the
championship game.
They've gone to this East West.
You know the league originallyis like 1920 and it goes through
a couple of different names,becomes the national football
league.
There's a move to achampionship game, divide the
(02:56):
league East and West.
Now they're hosting andMarshall is so upset with the
city he moves the game to thepolo grounds and they lose to
the Packers.
Now he's really upset the fans.
So I believe it's his wife thatsays why don't you go back to
DC, where you grew up, and makeit the Washington Redskins?
And that's kind of that part ofthe story.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Now I mean, as you were growing up, did you ever
look at the name as a negativestereotype?
Did you ever look at the nameas a negative stereotype, or did
you just look at it like, hey,redskins powerful.
The image of strength, I guess,is my point.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I don't think as a kid.
Well, I'm so unaware of so manythings because we are the last
team to integrate.
Ernie Davis is drafted, refusesto play and there's a trade for
Bobby Mitchell.
So I actually have somewherearound here in all this
memorabilia when I was a littlekid I'm absolutely in love with
(03:54):
Charlie Taylor and BobbyMitchell Black men playing for
the Redskins, and there's alittle white kid growing up.
I mean I love them and I don'tknow the history, no-transcript.
(04:25):
I'm at the first game in 69,when it became RFK Stadium,
january of 69, after the deathof Kennedy, they name it RFK.
So I was at the very first game, cardinals and Redskins.
So to answer your question onthat, looking back at the
history and realizing the badrace relations, the team had the
(04:47):
.
At the history and realizingthe bad race relations, the team
had the Dixie in the fight songand sort of how George Preston
Marshall is perceived.
It looks like an ugly history.
But yeah, as a young child I'mseeing a team with black guys,
white guys and I believe RayShonky was Native American I
can't remember if he was NativeAmerican or I think he was and
there was a couple of guys thatyou kind of hear that maybe they
(05:07):
were at least part NativeAmerican.
But as a white kid growing upin America, I think, as a lot of
people would say, certainly theimagery we got from TV and
movies was the Western and wesaw the imagery or the portrayal
of Native Americans in everymovie and these are supposed to
(05:28):
be late 19th century type ofdepictions.
But as a kid I thought it'scowboys and Indians, and I'm for
the Indians because when theRedskins played the cowboys Now,
looking back, did I think itwas kind of clownish that the
marching band was wearingheaddress and all the
red-skinned cheerleaders wearinglittle princess outfits Indian
(05:48):
princess?
It didn't really cross my mindbecause it was a white-centric
culture.
Clearly that projected certainimages on other cultures.
Do I think it was done inhatred?
Absolutely not.
Was it?
Though a potential power thingis there.
You know you hear people saylike the fighting irish.
(06:11):
If you're irish and catholicand you're a fan of notre dame,
you really care that it's thefighting.
You probably think that's kindof sexy.
I like that.
It's the fighting irish and theceltics in boston.
You know the, the Vikings?
I don't know, they're probablynot on par.
But again, to answer yourquestion, no, as a young child?
Absolutely not.
(06:31):
It really wasn't until the 80sthat I ever really remember
hearing anything about.
You know that it waspotentially a name that was
going to come into play and Iremember in 91 when the Redskins
went to their last Super Bowland won, there were people
picketing in Minneapolis at thatSuper Bowl against the Bills.
I remember in 91 when theRedskins went to their last
Super Bowl and won, there werepeople picketing in Minneapolis
at that Super Bowl against theBills.
I remember that being in thenews.
Then it felt like when they gotbad in the 90s Gibbs is out,
(06:53):
the team's falling apart beforeSnyder takes over it seemed like
it kind of became a back issueagain because they weren't very
good.
It just wasn't in the news.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Now, what about fan reaction in general?
Uh, to the name change.
I mean, I get it.
You know, from the outside I'mnot in the belly, but uh, what
was the fan?
I mean, do you understand it?
I mean yourself, do youunderstand the issue?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
I do I do.
You know, and in preparation togo on with you, I think there's
a bunch of different thingsrunning.
One is and I'm not sure that itmatters is what does the name
really mean?
Now, I thought interesting thatwhen the name was dropped in
2020, and again, like you said,the renaming that came about
(07:39):
with commanders.
With commanders, I'm, as I'msure you did I see this first
Native American GuardianAssociation and this beautiful
guy that's a Marine.
You know, once Marine, alwaysMarine.
He's a retired Marine and he'ssaying we, with our organization
, want the name back.
You are destroying AmericanIndians or Native Americans in
(08:03):
the culture by pulling all thisand we want the name back.
And his name is Billy Deakman.
I believe it was Billy Deakman.
He made the comment that in hisstudy and understanding of the
term Redskins it is a verysacred term in Native American
culture as the warrior whopaints oneself going into battle
(08:23):
to, you know, makes a pact withGod of putting it all on the
line.
I'm like, okay, he's sayingthat.
Can he say that?
All right, he says that.
What I find interesting, though,about Native American culture
and the team, a couple of things.
You know there was a 2016 study.
I believe it was the WashingtonPost and 91% of Native
(08:44):
Americans polled, and if it's alarge enough sample size, as
anybody's guess, but in that 91%said I either don't care
there's much bigger fish to fryother things in my life that
concern me or they loved it.
Now there's a young lady onYouTube who goes into genealogy.
She did her own personal andshe starts to get into this
question of where we come from,what are our bloodlines, and
(09:08):
when she finishes graduateschool she goes to a Native
American reservation NavajoIndians, I think it was in New
Mexico and she says her firstday and I believe she's Greek or
Italian, her ethnicity I don'treally remember.
But she goes on and she startsto teach.
She just got her master'sdegree and every kid on the
grounds of this school have onredskin jackets and or Braves
(09:32):
caps.
So she goes up to a kid andsaid what gives?
I thought it was offensive.
No, no, that is badass.
That is the baddest ass youknow like a symbol you can have
out there.
I'm proud of that.
Now we get into the part that'salso an uncomfortable thing to
discuss and I have several ofthem here, but the helmet logo
(09:53):
that we came up with, as youprobably know, was a gift from
the Blackfoot Indians.
Walter Blackie Wetzel gave thisand it was John Two Guns White
Calf who is also the image withthe Buffalo nickel.
So this is a Blackfoot Indiangift.
They go in and say you've goneto the R helmet, which I have
one of up here, which was theLombardi helmet.
(10:14):
Lombardi comes in 69,tragically dies of cancer in 70,
but he wanted to make the teamuniform exactly like the Packers
, except everywhere.
Green now became burgundy andhe wants to go with the gold
helmet.
So along comes Blackie Wesselto say hey, put that Indian head
symbol on the helmet.
And I'm sorry, I know whateveroffense is brought to people in
(10:38):
history that is the mostbeautiful helmet ever.
I mean, again, it might offendsome people to say that, but it
is a good looking helmet.
It always was a good lookinghelmet and in that question of
name is a separate thing fromimagery and that's why the you
know they saw the south dakotauh, senator, I believe it's
south dakota came out and saidthat they wanted to get the logo
(11:00):
back without the name, you know, to have some kind of throwback
uniform or something wherethere's an acknowledgement of
the wetzel family and, you know,maybe go back and wear the
helmet at times.
It's a complicated.
It's a complicated issue.
I was like who?
Speaker 1 (11:17):
who pushed the issue?
Like who?
You know what I mean?
Like it had to change the nameis pretty big deal.
I mean, yeah, who pushed theissue?
Is it native americans mostly?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
well, you know, I thought about that.
Well, I'm going way out there,politically correct in the
present environment, I don'tknow exactly what anybody can
say still, but I did think aboutit.
It's about five lanes.
I thought about coming intothis.
There is the word itself, whichthere is a historians are in
battle over and one of thebattles is and I've seen the
documentation in Detroit of totry to support this view it is a
(11:52):
term that native Americans tookon.
That was first, uh, discoveredby the French and the French put
a word to it red people.
It was pre-English, putting anykind of spin on it, but it was
Native Americans saying hey,here comes some white folks that
have come in to settle for goodor for bad.
Then, when slaves were broughtin from Africa and
(12:14):
African-Americans brought in,well, they look a different
shade than we do.
So it became an identificationof we're the red people, white
people, black people.
I've heard that in certaintreaties the Native Americans
refer to themselves as redpeople.
So there's that argument whichgets you in a lot of dicey
situations.
Because how dare you?
But hell, if that's what thepeople, that kind of coined the
(12:34):
phrase.
But does that mean it's notoffensive today?
No, is there still a reason topull it?
Maybe Now the next lane I thinkthat's important is the
cultural appropriation argumentthey make, that when they made
the move to Redskins there was acoach that had questionable
(12:54):
Native American heritage thatMarshall put in the position,
and there is the famous Carlisleschool that Jim Thorpe went to
and apparently in that earlyquarter century of the 20th
century there were a lot ofIndian schools, native Americans
, that were really good atfootball, and they'd even had a
team earlier in NFL history thatwas made up of mostly, of
(13:17):
almost exclusively of, nativeAmericans.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
In the NFL.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Go ahead In the NFL.
Yes, sir, yes, sir, yes, sir.
There was in and out.
Oh my gosh, when it comes tofranchises.
They popped in and out.
You know, nobody could afford,uh, to keep the teams going.
You know the stegall's thing wetalked about earlier.
That was a world war ii issue,but franchises were flipping all
the time.
So I heard an argument thatgeorge Preston Marshall,
(13:43):
especially with his ugly historyof race relations, had no
business naming a team theRedskins and carrying all the
Indian imagery or whatever.
How dare he do so, even if hethrew a couple of Native
American players on the team,but they painted themselves in
war paint.
Then, of course, he was themaster showman, so he did the
(14:07):
halftime show, the fight song.
Hail to the Redskins.
All this stuff comes about andthey go through the period where
they're good.
They went in 37.
They went in 42.
I think they played their lastchampionship game in 45 and lost
.
Of course they were famouslybeaten the hell out of by the
Bears in 40, 73 to nothing.
But the opening of the team isgood.
(14:27):
Now they get to Washington, theleague begins to integrate.
They don't, and they go throughthis really horrible period of
15 or so years until Lombardigets there.
Well, there's not a winningseason for 15 years leading up
to Lombardi, but pre-integration, the teams are really getting
bad.
Bobby Mitchell, of course,famously becomes the first black
athlete to play.
They draft Charlie Taylor in1964.
(14:49):
He's a Hall of Famer, he'sRookie of the Year.
So as the team integrates,there is a rebound.
You have the Lombardi season.
George Allen leads to Joe Gibbsand George Allen leads to Joe
Gibbs.
So that lane is the question ofcan you be white and make a team
with the Indian name?
But on the flip side which Ifind the interesting point to
(15:11):
give this long answer to yourquestion, what if a white group
of American gets together andsay, hey, native Americans, you
guys that love the name and lovethe imagery, no, no, no, calm
down, we're in here to help,we're here to tell you what
you're supposed to feel.
It is offensive, but I love thename, I love the imagery.
No, no, no.
You can't say that.
That's not for you to determine.
So if it is, 90% want the namebut 10% adamantly think or
(15:36):
opposed and think that it'sinsulting, I don't know what the
answer is.
Do I think it could beinsulting Absolutely?
But the other major lane is thequestion of what does Redskins
mean?
Not only the origins of theword, but is there something to
(15:57):
this question of?
Is it associated with bountieson Native American people?
And I actually want to get intoan article that was written.
It was in Esquire magazine andthis was back from 2014.
Update yes, this was the titleof the article.
Yes, a redskin does in factmean the scalped head of a
(16:19):
Native American sold for cash,or pelt sold for cash.
Now, this is what's interestingand I'm parsing words, but I
think it's important and youknow, again, this probably bring
me a lot of heat, but this iswhat they have.
Winona, minnesota, from theDaily Republican article
September 24, 19, I'm sorry,september 24, 1863.
(16:42):
It reads the state reward fordead Indians has been increased
to $200 for every red skin sentto purgatory.
This sum is more than the deadbodies of all Indians east of
the Red River are worth.
That's awful, no question aboutit.
It and there are maybeunintended consequences too, and
(17:03):
I don't think what I'm gettingready to say is a good thing
either.
But I'm no fan of daniel snyder,nor do I think anyone that's
ever had a redskin history orwashington football team history
is really, really fond of himand what I?
I couldn't believe whathappened.
I was in that period from 1966on, where there was a 40,000
(17:25):
person waiting list for seasontickets, the last games I went
to in the last 10 years.
There are 75% other teams fansthere now with the command oh
gosh, yeah, if you went toRedskins Eagles, let's say 2019,
last year the team name, it was75.
To Redskins-Eagles, let's say2019, last year the team name,
it was 75%.
Green, absolutely.
And with the advent of StubHuband all the other I'm not trying
(17:48):
to do an advertisement, but youknow when you have all these
ticket things, fan ticket typeof situations pretty much the
Washington people have been.
Once the team starts to lose,they start unloading all the
tickets and if you're in Philly,trip to DC is not that far Hell
look at the family together andgo down and see our team play
in Washington and go, you know,yell and scream at them how bad
(18:09):
they are.
And that's pretty much whathappened.
And as someone who grew up inRFK and brother, I'm going to
tell you what.
If you never experienced RFK,you had to be there, and people
that listen to this did knowthat place rocked.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
that was sacred ground yeah, I watch a lot of
games.
I mean I obviously I've neverbeen there, but I mean, when you
were there, fan yeah yeah, whenyou were there it was.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
It was a special, special place and I never liked
the new stadium.
It seemed artificial.
It's 12 miles outside the city.
It's out in maryland somebodygod bless maryland, but I mean
it's just not the same.
The team needs to be in thecity, but he's in ticket holder
no, I never was.
I actually, when I started going, I went with people that had it
and then I you know, in thelast 20, 25 years it was more of
(18:56):
a group of us would gettogether.
Matter of fact, I have the seantayun Taylor the 21, towel up.
I was at his last game againstthe Eagles and I've done a lot
of podcasts where I've said thishe's the best athlete player
I've ever seen.
I'm in Williamsburg, Virginianow and I can tell you we all
know Lawrence Taylor's the bestplayer To me.
(19:18):
Lawrence Taylor, that's onlyLawrence Taylor.
He's right here fromWilliamsburg Virginia but the
best.
I miss LT.
One time I had a chance to seehim play.
He did not play Redskins Giantsbut yeah, Sean Taylor is the
greatest player I ever saw and Iwas at his last game and then
the game after his death and Ithink that kind of tarnished
(19:41):
that stadium.
For me too, it was just so sadwhen he passed and the way he
passed.
And then it was anotherdownhill slide until RG3, and I
was at the game to beat theCowboys to win the NFC East.
And then I have not gotten into see Jaden Daniels yet, but
how do you not love him?
Speaker 1 (20:00):
I like him.
He's cool under fire, couldswing the rock, I mean, there's
no doubt about it.
Um, he's just uh cool underpressure.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, he's good, I like him I think he proves
another premise too that I'vediscussed with a lot of people.
I think that there was a realrash of bad choices being made
with kids who had a breakoutjunior year at 21.
You know they had two yearskind of red shirt and are
sitting around one year redshirt, sit around a year, then
they have a breakout season,then they go.
(20:30):
Hey, I'm gonna go into thedraft and the thing about
daniels and you're kind, you'regonna see it more and more
probably with the nil.
Kids are getting some money inschool but why not just stay in
school?
But he had 55 starts in collegebetween Arizona State and LSU.
The kid played 55 games and heturned 24 in December.
I'm not knocking it, but he wasno child when he got in there.
(20:51):
I mean, you know he had somechance for advancement and I
think there's too many kids thathave been ruined at 21.
The game is overwhelming andthey never recover from their
first bad season in the NFL.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
So is there a controversy?
I mean, you're not in KansasCity, but is there a controversy
with the Chiefs name?
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Yes, but not to the degree.
Okay, it's funny because I didone of these podcasts on my own
and I was told long ago you knowthat supposedly Joe Rogan
famously said don't ever look atthe comments, but I do one time
and I get.
That's right, white guy tryingto explain, you know, native
american culture today, whatever.
But the point I made on theshow and it came up in a short
(21:29):
on youtube the point I wasmaking is I didn't recognize why
the washington team, under heat, didn't pivot back to braves,
keep the, keep the image on thehelmet, keep all that.
And it's historically the firstname.
So you've gone Boston Redskinsto Boston.
I mean sorry, Boston Braves toBoston Redskins, washington
(21:51):
Redskins hey, revert back toBraves, it's in the history.
And Atlanta keeps it.
So I make that comment alongwith their tomahawk chopping,
still in Kansas City, and I saidand they get no heat.
And I literally then said well,I won't say no heat, but so I
get this comment like it's araging fire of hatred towards
(22:14):
the Chiefs.
So you know, I kind of go lookat it.
It's all four years ago.
So, as the Redskins and indiansare dropping their names,
people are really pushing thecheaps.
However, right before this lastsuper bowl, there's some people
in the parking lot making somesome noise about it, but that's
one thing I can say aboutwashington fans.
(22:34):
There was a hog gets.
I mean that's interesting thatin the 80s there was a bunch of
men, women, wearing dresses thatwere businessmen.
I remember that, yeah, smokingcigars and stuff, but when you
look at how fans act, youraverage M1A1 Redskin fan had a
(22:56):
jersey on, that's kind of all.
I remember fan had a jersey on,that's kind of all I remember.
Now there were some people thatyou might every once in a while
see some kind of dress, but Inever saw a tomahawk chop and I
never saw certain types of fanbehavior that you see in other
places where native americanmascots or teams have been used
(23:17):
they have the seminoles too.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Right and and was that Florida or is that Florida?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
State, florida State.
That brings up an interestingpoint, because when this name
controversy started I had afriend that said you know what
Snyder should have done?
I'm like what's that?
He goes, he should have gone toa tribe, a recognized nation of
one of the nations of NativeAmericans, and said let's
partner and I'm like, talk to memore.
And he goes well, you know whythey never pull Seminoles right?
(23:43):
And I said because the SeminoleIndians are in on it.
And then I do a little researchand that's it.
So that is the state team forthe Seminole Indians.
And if you say to them, hey, Ifeel kind of offended.
They say how about?
(24:03):
Screw you, it's our team andthat's why it remains the
florida state seminoles, becausethe actual seminole nation is
in league with the college andthey love it.
So they do their thing.
And being the seminoles andhaving a spear on the side of
the helmet, you're not going totalk them out of that, because
it's their team what's theoverall?
Speaker 1 (24:16):
I mean this, obviously I know your opinion,
but overall the fans in general.
I mean I don't know if youcould speak for everyone, but
the overall majority of fans.
So they don't like this change.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
They hate the name.
They hate the name, but do youhate the name?
I do, I do, I mean.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
I again I'm coming from a different perspective,
not not a diehard fan of theteam, but I said, you know, I
was like commanders, okay, Ilike that.
You know, I mean not thegreatest name, but it was like
okay, but again, it's not myteam that I root for, but so you
don't like it when you go tothe games.
Yeah, what percentage of peopleare still wearing the old
(24:52):
school?
85 of red skin stuff likethat's all they wear the jerseys
.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
The helmets, obviously, but the symbols, some
of that too, they wear helmets.
No, but yeah, if you go to agame now, they're still wearing
everything.
And now that dan quinn's in,you know he was out one day with
the w, with a hanging featheron his shirt, and it all hell
broke loose like what's hetrying to say?
What subtle message is comingout there?
And there's been talk againthat they're going, they're
(25:21):
going to have to revisit whatevery team does with throwbacks.
If you're going to wear athrowback, what the hell are you
going to do?
That's something that has comeup is how do you not throw a
throwback?
And is it the spear helmets?
Less offensive as the arm, butit's got a feather on it.
Less offensive is the Indianhead.
Is, you know, the two guns,white calf imagery of the
(25:43):
buffalo nickel figure.
Is that offensive?
Again, I don't know how thatbeautiful picture of this native
american can be ugly, I meanagain.
But now one argument that I'vecertainly heard that I've never
really thought about because I'mnot maybe in that position, but
there have been native, youknow, we're simply, as a people,
(26:08):
not a mascot to others.
Makes sense.
But again, what if you're theSeminoles and you're digging the
imagery and you love being partof Florida State.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
I know you're a baseball fan, Just curious are
you a Capitals fan?
Speaker 2 (26:24):
No, I respect hockey.
You know when you freeze somewater and you put some in out
there with some sticks.
You know all that.
I get that.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
I only bring it up because Ovechkin is about to
break one of the greatestrecords ever.
I mean Wayne Gretzky.
Oh, you know, I mean, even ifyou don't follow hockey,
everyone knows Wayne Gretzky'srecord was supposedly
untouchable.
So yeah, I'm a huge hockey fan.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
So it's like you know .
Anyway, it's a big deal in thesports world.
Well, in your opening I want totell you too.
I don't know what it is aboutme being from Virginia, but I
think all of my favorite peopleare from Pennsylvania and I
absolutely love Pittsburgh.
Yeah, it's the most solidpeople in the world.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Yeah, not to disparage.
You Lived there until I was 30.
Moved here.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
It's a great town.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Yeah it it's great town, yeah, it's wonderful.
And I mean I could not imaginethe steelers playing in a
suburban area outside of wherethey are now.
It would just be like I don'tknow, not the same viral passion
driving, you know, 10 miles toget to the place.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
So yeah and uh.
I also noticed a different fanwhen the stadium opened, so in
rfk.
You know you'd see some peoplecoming in drinking with the
paper bag covering.
You know this is some.
It was some, some guys off thestreets.
You know there were some coolguys and stuff, and then I would
go to games and the wholecorporate box that's beside you
(27:48):
is empty, like nobody shows up.
It's drizzling, it's a littlebit too wet out or something you
know, and you see bob'scorporate whatever, and there's
like 10 seats together.
These are times I did the faint, like the what are the stub
hubs or something get a ticketand then you look and there's
like 117 seats empty.
And you just go down there andyou basically find the weather's
(28:10):
not quite right.
Man, rfk, every seat was filled.
I don't care how bad theweather, it was just a different
type of fan and you know itbecame more the suburbs fan, I
think as well.
Plus, you mix in losing, but in.
But in the 60s, though, you knowwhen these, the history of
these sold out, started, it wasthe Jurgensen, smith, taylor and
(28:32):
Mitchell show.
You know, one of the greatstats of all time.
When you go back and look atJurgensen, of course he's my
favorite player.
When you go back and look atSonny, he was putting up crazy
numbers for the 60s.
So he has the great seasonwhere he has 288 completion, 580
attempts for 37,47 yards, whichsets a record.
Ain't those 32 touchdowns?
(28:53):
And Taylor Smith and Mitchellfinish one, two and four in
receiving.
That's an historic mark.
Three receivers, a tight end andtwo wides or a flanker and a
split, are one, two and four incatches in a season.
(29:14):
So Sonny's lighting up theskies and they're six, and
they're like you know, they tendto be six, six and two ties all
the time and stuff the Autogramera, bill McPeak Autogram, but
everyone's there because Sonnyputs on the best aerial show in
America and they lose 42 to 41,but he's lighting it up.
And Bobby Mitchell and CharlieTaylor and Jerry Smith should be
(29:37):
a Hall of Famer.
But yeah, it was good timesbecause the fans just loved it.
So when Lombardi comes in, it'sa new life.
When George Allen comes in,they start heading in another
direction and Joe Gibbs is a godthere.
He's just a god in inwashington because he brought it
.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Let me ask you this uh yeah, in a hypothetical world
.
Right, you have to eliminatebaseball or football.
Which one would you eliminate?
Which one would you keep as afan yourself?
Speaker 2 (30:08):
wow, I don't know, because, to be honest with you,
this is another whole road wecan go down I thought for sure
you'd say football shock well,no, no, no, no.
10 years ago I I played baseballin college and I am heavily
involved in working with a lotof kids, a lot of kids that
played in pro ball.
You know I'm an attorney.
(30:28):
I did play a representationworst business, worst business
on earth.
But it's kind of like I'm inbaseball in a different way.
It's like when I watch a gameI'm looking at the player.
I'm a red sox fan because, forwhatever crazy reason, I love
just remski I'm some kid growingup in virginia and I love yas
and yas, one of the greatestplayers of all time.
Then I fall in love with JimRice, and it's Fred Lynn, and
(30:50):
it's Fisk and it's Dewey God, Ilove Dwight Evans.
So you know, there's all theseplayers in Boston that I like.
I'm not in Boston, but when itcame to my love of Washington
and the Redskins it was anentirely different love.
But what I was going to say,like 10 years ago, I'm on the
bus and tell these group of guysI'm like guys, you know, pro
football peaked in the 80s so Icoach, I don't think those guys
(31:11):
could play today.
I'm like you don't thinklawrence taylor could play today
.
You don't think reggie whitecould play today.
Like what do you think thoseguys were like?
I've seen him in person.
So we get in this big, longargument.
So when I put out the fire Ifinally said, okay, guys, who's
your bo jackson?
That ended it.
That it.
You don't have a Bo Jackson,guys, nobody's Bo Jackson.
(31:32):
Dion was playing two sports.
Brian Jordan was playing twosports.
Those guys don't exist.
Jay Schrader was the thirdoverall pick in baseball and
went and played.
You know he had a career in theNFL.
I mean it kind of flamed out alittle bit there, but he could
throw a football 85 yards.
And john elway marino, warrenmoon, I'm sorry, guys, the
player I don't know.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
You tell me it looks like flag football to me now
well, it's funny you bring thatup because I have a little
segment I call this or that.
I'm just going to run somestuff by you.
Just tell me quickly.
Yeah, your preference.
Yeah, yeah, you kind ofanswered some of these already.
Yeah, just for just for the funthing, just to wrap it up, uh,
luxury box or peanut heaven.
In other words, you go to agame, you want to be in the
(32:15):
luxury box or peanut heaven it.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
It depends.
I've been in luxury boxes whenwhen I was a lawyer.
You know it's triple a stadiumbut I was luxury box I went to
and I went more to likesocialize because I could care
less about the result on thefield let's talk.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Talk Redskins, I mean commanders, football, I mean
professionals.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Back in the day when it was Redskins, yeah.
I definitely wanted to be downthere in the rain and the mud
and all the rest.
I wanted to be beside the field, yeah.
I wanted to be as close to thefield.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
How about Jalen Daniels?
Speaker 2 (32:44):
or Joe Theismann.
Oh man, you hurt me there, man,because I love Joe, but I mean
gosh Jalen Daniels, he Not oneyear though.
No, but Jaden, I mean he's abeautiful kid, he always thanks
God for his blessings.
I mean you can't, but I loveJoe because Joe was a warrior.
Joe was a warrior the night hebroke his leg.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Oh, that was brutal.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
It was awful.
But you know, I saw a piecewith him and Taylor together
talking about it.
What I thought, man it was likea guy thing is Taylor said I
felt so bad because I respectedyou so much.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Ripon.
I might be saying his name MarkRipon Ripon or Doug Williams.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Once again it's two quarterbacks that won Super
Bowls and then once again theircommonalities.
They had nothing on the backend of it and I used to say, and
I love, I mean I love DougWilliams, I love what he did,
but Doug Williams did pick thebest day of his life to have the
best day of his life.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
I mean, you know, you peak, you peak.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
I mean it's like, yeah, that was a perfect timed
day and Rippon was 91 Super Bowl, and by 93, he's a bent guy and
he's on his way kind of out, soI mean, both of them did not
follow well the Super Bowlvictories.
Joe Gibbs' 1.0, the first stint.
The only losing season he hasis 88, when it's really between
(34:03):
Williams and Rippon as thestarter and Williams has some
injury issues.
But yeah, neither one of themhad a really good season to
follow.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
How about?
Would you prefer an offensivebattle you know 45, 44 or a
defensive battle?
Speaker 2 (34:18):
uh, I would never have thought this, but because
of what's happening, guys, someof these chiefs bills games to
keep going to the playoffs andall.
It's kind of making me sickbecause I recognize there's no
way either one of them is goingto stop the other one.
So it's kind of making me sickbecause I recognize there's no
way either one of them is goingto stop the other one.
So it literally does come downto who gets the ball last.
You're sitting there countingseconds, like okay, they're
going to score here, and then 37seconds later, mahomes is going
(34:41):
to score another touchdown andken allen score another one, and
you're talking about fourtouchdowns in the span of a
minute and a half.
And that's really what.
What's happening?
So, because they won't let themplay defense anymore, and I
think that's really what it is.
I think it's kind of aninferior product.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
You're leaning towards defensive.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
I respected that.
Yeah.
Yeah, now that everything is apinball machine scoring, I
wouldn't say it's boring, butthere seems to be something
lacking in the competition endof it.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
I think with the defensive thing, a break meant a
lot more yeah, I mean, I thinkI know the answer to this next
one.
I was going to say old school,70s football or today's game oh,
definitely 70s, although mypeak time would be 80s, I
thought.
I mean, I met before theysoftened it up.
And you know, I mean like thekickoff rule and onside kicks.
I don't like.
I don't like the new kickoffrule.
(35:31):
I understand the safety part,but you know, and then you've
got to tell someone you're goingto make an onside kick.
Also I don't get it.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
No, that's.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
I like the surprise element.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Well and this is something else, too, that I hate
about baseball with you, don'tthrow the four pitches for the
walk anymore.
I don't like that either.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I like the pitch count though I do like that or
not the pitch count, the pitchclock.
I thought I wouldn't, but Ilike that.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
I've gotten used to it, but that was always one of
the beauties of baseball.
There is no clock.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
The last one, john Riggins, or Clinton Portis.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Well, actually, I think the world of Clinton
Portis, I think the world ofClinton Porter sucks too.
I really do.
Great player and he was tradedfor Champ Bailey, which did
break my heart, because ChampBailey is one of those guys like
Sean Taylor.
You had to see it.
As a matter of fact, I sawChamp Bailey, deion Sanders and
Daryl Green on the same team in2000.
And they could all run, butChamp Bailey was twice as big.
So he's one of my favorites.
(36:26):
So it's kind of hard not tolove Riggins more than anything
because he got us a ring andhe's a Hall of Famer and yeah.
I mean I'd take Riggins over himif you're pushing me on that.
But, Clinton, if you'relistening, I love you.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Yeah, we thought the world.
So who is your Mount Rushmoreof Washington commanders teams
or Redskins commanders over theyears?
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Mount Rushmore- who's on that?
You know that's that has beenasked and I am.
It's not like my license plateis SJ9 HOF.
It's like Sonny Jurgensen, Notlike.
That's how I still get risk intags.
I haven't given them up inVirginia.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
But you're putting Jurgensen on there, right.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
I have to put Sonny, but that's.
I think that there's a.
The problem is that I thinkSammy Ball has to be on there.
Sammy Ball is an all-aroundplayer, defensive back I mean.
He literally had a game withfour touchdown passes and four
interceptions in the same gameand he was the league's best
punter, and for many years hewas the history's best punter,
until I think some people havepassed him is he playing?
Speaker 1 (37:30):
is he playing from 37 ?
To?
Speaker 2 (37:31):
52, but yeah, all right, he's there ball jergensen
well, I'm gonna.
I'm gonna hold off on sunny fora moment because, as hard as
that is, I think ball has to beon it and I think charlie taylor
has to be on it.
I think charlie taylor has tobe on it.
I think Charlie Taylor has tobe on it.
He is a Hall of Famer.
(37:52):
But then I get all wound aroundthe axle about Mitchell,
because Mitchell was a pioneerand a Hall of Famer and he's one
of the numbers that's retired.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
It's a lot of choices .
I mean it's a tough wall.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Daryl Green generally goes under.
So I'll just throw out somenames and then we can kind of
pare down.
But the other guy I tell you,when it gets into the emotional
hard stuff, love a player morethan anybody.
It's Art Monk.
I mean, I don't know that Iever loved a player as much as I
did Monk and I was one pissedoff human being for the longest
time.
And I'll tell you somethingthis is controversial too.
(38:28):
I think that Gibbs,christianity and the type of
guys he brought in really wassomething that hurt them for
recognition.
If you watch and I watched itthe other night the induction of
Daryl Green and Art Monk, a lotof what they talk about is
their love of their wife, theirchildren, their families and God
.
Whether people like it or not,that's who they are.
Like it or not, that's who theyare right.
(38:51):
And I remember sometime afriend of mine said well, I
don't know if monk was.
I said you know what?
When you leave a game, when youleave a game of competition and
you've done more of it that yougot paid for than anyone that
ever played you're a hall offamer.
He left the game the number one, all-time receiver for
receptions.
He got blown away down the lineby jerry rice and other
receivers.
But how can you leave the gamecatching the ball more than any
(39:13):
way?
Well, he didn't have asignature catch.
I said you know, I think a lotof it is.
He slept with his own wife.
He never got a stint in jail,you know, and he's a beautiful
guy and he's very quiet.
He handed the ball to theofficial.
He didn't have an elaboratescheme of how he's going to
celebrate.
I really believe that hurt him.
Now, daryl Green was a littlebit different character, but
also a man of God, and he got inon first ballot.
(39:35):
But I don't see how Art Monktakes eight years to get in.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
So you're putting him on the mountain, I mean the
Mount Rushmore.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Well, he's my guy, so , but Well, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
You got Ball, you got Monk Green.
You got ball, you got monk.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Green.
Green has to be on it.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Joe.
Joe Theismann, no.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
No, joe's not ahead of Sonny, for sure.
Okay, I'm going to go Sonny.
I'm going to go Sonny ball andI'm going to.
I'm going to go monk and greenand like that, yeah, but still
I'm leaving off guys I love.
That's fine.
I still love Bobby Mitchell andCharlie Taylor.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
Jack, this has been great.
I mean a lot of information, alot of good stuff.
I really appreciate you comingon, though I learned a lot of
history.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
I appreciate it, man.
I appreciate being here and agood Pittsburgh guy like
yourself, I'd love to have youcome see me one time on a show
yeah, I want your Steeler viewson it.
And Pirates I want you to giveme some pirate stories if you're
into baseball.
On the pirate side skeins.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Thank god for paul skeins yeah, yeah, there's some
good.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
There's some good history, though you got some
great players you have beenlistening to unmuted with pop.
You're listening to Unmuted with Papa Mutes.
Welcome to Papa Mutes everybody.
Today, my guest is Jack Moore.
Jack is host of More toConsider podcast, where Jack
discusses football history andthe law.
Jack is an avid WashingtonCommanders fan and he's here
today to talk about theWashington football team and
their name change from theRedskins to the Commanders back
(00:24):
in 2022.
Jack, good to have you aboard.
Welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Thank you, sir, appreciate being here.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
So a little background.
I'm in Philly but I'm fromPittsburgh, so growing up, you
know I'm a Steeler fan,obviously, and my wife and kids
were born here, so they're Eaglefans.
I mean, I'm surrounded by Eaglefans, sure, I have no choice,
but it's fine, it's fine.
So I'm kind of a backdoor Eaglefan is my point.
(00:51):
In fact, back in you may knowthis as a historian back in 43,
I believe, the Stegals, theStegals, exactly right.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah, it's an interesting story.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
I know the Stegals Exactly right.
Yeah, it's an interesting story, yeah, I know it's fascinating.
And then they, you know, gotback to single names and Eagles
and Steelers.
So I bring it up because theynever really had a an issue with
the name.
You know, it's pretty, prettybasic Steelers, eagles, unlike
the Redskins through the year.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
I think they were the Boston Braves, right, initially
.
Yeah, okay, 1932, they're theBoston Braves and they play in
the Boston Braves NationalLeague Stadium.
So I did.
I'm constantly doing researchon this whole history and story
and it sort of makes sense to methat George Preston Marshall,
who I believe was born in WestVirginia but he grows up in DC,
is the owner of the team and hehas a real love-hate
relationship probably more hatewith Boston as a venue for the
(01:53):
team.
So they're playing at the BraveStadium.
They're not getting goodattendance, so they moved to
Fenway.
Now there's a little bit to thehistory of why the name changed
to Redskins, but part of it,from what I understand and I've
seen this documented indifferent places, maybe it's
being true is a friend was likeBoston Braves, you got a bad
(02:14):
taste in your mouth.
Now you're in Fenway Red Sox,redskins.
Hey, that makes sense.
So the Redskins was in part abreak from the Braves.
Keep the Indian imagery, theNative American imagery, but
call it the Redskins.
It kind of makes sense.
Red Sox to Redskins.
Since you were the Bravesplaying in Boston Then in the
(02:34):
1936 NFL championship, theattendance has gotten so bad.
They the Boston, now Redskinshave the opportunity to host the
championship game.
They've gone to this East West.
You know the league originallyis like 1920 and it goes through
a couple of different names,becomes the national football
league.
There's a move to achampionship game, divide the
(02:56):
league East and West.
Now they're hosting andMarshall is so upset with the
city he moves the game to thepolo grounds and they lose to
the Packers.
Now he's really upset the fans.
So I believe it's his wife thatsays why don't you go back to
DC, where you grew up, and makeit the Washington Redskins?
And that's kind of that part ofthe story.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Now I mean, as you were growing up, did you ever
look at the name as a negativestereotype?
Did you ever look at the nameas a negative stereotype, or did
you just look at it like, hey,redskins powerful.
The image of strength, I guess,is my point.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I don't think as a kid.
Well, I'm so unaware of so manythings because we are the last
team to integrate.
Ernie Davis is drafted, refusesto play and there's a trade for
Bobby Mitchell.
So I actually have somewherearound here in all this
memorabilia when I was a littlekid I'm absolutely in love with
(03:54):
Charlie Taylor and BobbyMitchell Black men playing for
the Redskins, and there's alittle white kid growing up.
I mean I love them and I don'tknow the history, no-transcript.
(04:25):
I'm at the first game in 69,when it became RFK Stadium,
january of 69, after the deathof Kennedy, they name it RFK.
So I was at the very first game, cardinals and Redskins.
So to answer your question onthat, looking back at the
history and realizing the badrace relations, the team had the
(04:47):
.
At the history and realizingthe bad race relations, the team
had the Dixie in the fight songand sort of how George Preston
Marshall is perceived.
It looks like an ugly history.
But yeah, as a young child I'mseeing a team with black guys,
white guys and I believe RayShonky was Native American I
can't remember if he was NativeAmerican or I think he was and
there was a couple of guys thatyou kind of hear that maybe they
(05:07):
were at least part NativeAmerican.
But as a white kid growing upin America, I think, as a lot of
people would say, certainly theimagery we got from TV and
movies was the Western and wesaw the imagery or the portrayal
of Native Americans in everymovie and these are supposed to
(05:28):
be late 19th century type ofdepictions.
But as a kid I thought it'scowboys and Indians, and I'm for
the Indians because when theRedskins played the cowboys Now,
looking back, did I think itwas kind of clownish that the
marching band was wearingheaddress and all the
red-skinned cheerleaders wearinglittle princess outfits Indian
(05:48):
princess?
It didn't really cross my mindbecause it was a white-centric
culture.
Clearly that projected certainimages on other cultures.
Do I think it was done inhatred?
Absolutely not.
Was it?
Though a potential power thingis there.
You know you hear people saylike the fighting irish.
(06:11):
If you're irish and catholicand you're a fan of notre dame,
you really care that it's thefighting.
You probably think that's kindof sexy.
I like that.
It's the fighting irish and theceltics in boston.
You know the, the Vikings?
I don't know, they're probablynot on par.
But again, to answer yourquestion, no, as a young child?
Absolutely not.
(06:31):
It really wasn't until the 80sthat I ever really remember
hearing anything about.
You know that it waspotentially a name that was
going to come into play and Iremember in 91 when the Redskins
went to their last Super Bowland won, there were people
picketing in Minneapolis at thatSuper Bowl against the Bills.
I remember in 91 when theRedskins went to their last
Super Bowl and won, there werepeople picketing in Minneapolis
at that Super Bowl against theBills.
I remember that being in thenews.
Then it felt like when they gotbad in the 90s Gibbs is out,
(06:53):
the team's falling apart beforeSnyder takes over it seemed like
it kind of became a back issueagain because they weren't very
good.
It just wasn't in the news.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Now, what about fan reaction in general?
Uh, to the name change.
I mean, I get it.
You know, from the outside I'mnot in the belly, but uh, what
was the fan?
I mean, do you understand it?
I mean yourself, do youunderstand the issue?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
I do I do.
You know, and in preparation togo on with you, I think there's
a bunch of different thingsrunning.
One is and I'm not sure that itmatters is what does the name
really mean?
Now, I thought interesting thatwhen the name was dropped in
2020, and again, like you said,the renaming that came about
(07:39):
with commanders.
With commanders, I'm, as I'msure you did I see this first
Native American GuardianAssociation and this beautiful
guy that's a Marine.
You know, once Marine, alwaysMarine.
He's a retired Marine and he'ssaying we, with our organization
, want the name back.
You are destroying AmericanIndians or Native Americans in
(08:03):
the culture by pulling all thisand we want the name back.
And his name is Billy Deakman.
I believe it was Billy Deakman.
He made the comment that in hisstudy and understanding of the
term Redskins it is a verysacred term in Native American
culture as the warrior whopaints oneself going into battle
(08:23):
to, you know, makes a pact withGod of putting it all on the
line.
I'm like, okay, he's sayingthat.
Can he say that?
All right, he says that.
What I find interesting, though,about Native American culture
and the team, a couple of things.
You know there was a 2016 study.
I believe it was the WashingtonPost and 91% of Native
(08:44):
Americans polled, and if it's alarge enough sample size, as
anybody's guess, but in that 91%said I either don't care
there's much bigger fish to fryother things in my life that
concern me or they loved it.
Now there's a young lady onYouTube who goes into genealogy.
She did her own personal andshe starts to get into this
question of where we come from,what are our bloodlines, and
(09:08):
when she finishes graduateschool she goes to a Native
American reservation NavajoIndians, I think it was in New
Mexico and she says her firstday and I believe she's Greek or
Italian, her ethnicity I don'treally remember.
But she goes on and she startsto teach.
She just got her master'sdegree and every kid on the
grounds of this school have onredskin jackets and or Braves
(09:32):
caps.
So she goes up to a kid andsaid what gives?
I thought it was offensive.
No, no, that is badass.
That is the baddest ass youknow like a symbol you can have
out there.
I'm proud of that.
Now we get into the part that'salso an uncomfortable thing to
discuss and I have several ofthem here, but the helmet logo
(09:53):
that we came up with, as youprobably know, was a gift from
the Blackfoot Indians.
Walter Blackie Wetzel gave thisand it was John Two Guns White
Calf who is also the image withthe Buffalo nickel.
So this is a Blackfoot Indiangift.
They go in and say you've goneto the R helmet, which I have
one of up here, which was theLombardi helmet.
(10:14):
Lombardi comes in 69,tragically dies of cancer in 70,
but he wanted to make the teamuniform exactly like the Packers
, except everywhere.
Green now became burgundy andhe wants to go with the gold
helmet.
So along comes Blackie Wesselto say hey, put that Indian head
symbol on the helmet.
And I'm sorry, I know whateveroffense is brought to people in
(10:38):
history that is the mostbeautiful helmet ever.
I mean, again, it might offendsome people to say that, but it
is a good looking helmet.
It always was a good lookinghelmet and in that question of
name is a separate thing fromimagery and that's why the you
know they saw the south dakotauh, senator, I believe it's
south dakota came out and saidthat they wanted to get the logo
(11:00):
back without the name, you know, to have some kind of throwback
uniform or something wherethere's an acknowledgement of
the wetzel family and, you know,maybe go back and wear the
helmet at times.
It's a complicated.
It's a complicated issue.
I was like who?
Speaker 1 (11:17):
who pushed the issue?
Like who?
You know what I mean?
Like it had to change the nameis pretty big deal.
I mean, yeah, who pushed theissue?
Is it native americans mostly?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
well, you know, I thought about that.
Well, I'm going way out there,politically correct in the
present environment, I don'tknow exactly what anybody can
say still, but I did think aboutit.
It's about five lanes.
I thought about coming intothis.
There is the word itself, whichthere is a historians are in
battle over and one of thebattles is and I've seen the
documentation in Detroit of totry to support this view it is a
(11:52):
term that native Americans tookon.
That was first, uh, discoveredby the French and the French put
a word to it red people.
It was pre-English, putting anykind of spin on it, but it was
Native Americans saying hey,here comes some white folks that
have come in to settle for goodor for bad.
Then, when slaves were broughtin from Africa and
(12:14):
African-Americans brought in,well, they look a different
shade than we do.
So it became an identificationof we're the red people, white
people, black people.
I've heard that in certaintreaties the Native Americans
refer to themselves as redpeople.
So there's that argument whichgets you in a lot of dicey
situations.
Because how dare you?
But hell, if that's what thepeople, that kind of coined the
(12:34):
phrase.
But does that mean it's notoffensive today?
No, is there still a reason topull it?
Maybe Now the next lane I thinkthat's important is the
cultural appropriation argumentthey make, that when they made
the move to Redskins there was acoach that had questionable
(12:54):
Native American heritage thatMarshall put in the position,
and there is the famous Carlisleschool that Jim Thorpe went to
and apparently in that earlyquarter century of the 20th
century there were a lot ofIndian schools, native Americans
, that were really good atfootball, and they'd even had a
team earlier in NFL history thatwas made up of mostly, of
(13:17):
almost exclusively of, nativeAmericans.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
In the NFL.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Go ahead In the NFL.
Yes, sir, yes, sir, yes, sir.
There was in and out.
Oh my gosh, when it comes tofranchises.
They popped in and out.
You know, nobody could afford,uh, to keep the teams going.
You know the stegall's thing wetalked about earlier.
That was a world war ii issue,but franchises were flipping all
the time.
So I heard an argument thatgeorge Preston Marshall,
(13:43):
especially with his ugly historyof race relations, had no
business naming a team theRedskins and carrying all the
Indian imagery or whatever.
How dare he do so, even if hethrew a couple of Native
American players on the team,but they painted themselves in
war paint.
Then, of course, he was themaster showman, so he did the
(14:07):
halftime show, the fight song.
Hail to the Redskins.
All this stuff comes about andthey go through the period where
they're good.
They went in 37.
They went in 42.
I think they played their lastchampionship game in 45 and lost
.
Of course they were famouslybeaten the hell out of by the
Bears in 40, 73 to nothing.
But the opening of the team isgood.
(14:27):
Now they get to Washington, theleague begins to integrate.
They don't, and they go throughthis really horrible period of
15 or so years until Lombardigets there.
Well, there's not a winningseason for 15 years leading up
to Lombardi, but pre-integration, the teams are really getting
bad.
Bobby Mitchell, of course,famously becomes the first black
athlete to play.
They draft Charlie Taylor in1964.
(14:49):
He's a Hall of Famer, he'sRookie of the Year.
So as the team integrates,there is a rebound.
You have the Lombardi season.
George Allen leads to Joe Gibbsand George Allen leads to Joe
Gibbs.
So that lane is the question ofcan you be white and make a team
with the Indian name?
But on the flip side which Ifind the interesting point to
(15:11):
give this long answer to yourquestion, what if a white group
of American gets together andsay, hey, native Americans, you
guys that love the name and lovethe imagery, no, no, no, calm
down, we're in here to help,we're here to tell you what
you're supposed to feel.
It is offensive, but I love thename, I love the imagery.
No, no, no.
You can't say that.
That's not for you to determine.
So if it is, 90% want the namebut 10% adamantly think or
(15:36):
opposed and think that it'sinsulting, I don't know what the
answer is.
Do I think it could beinsulting Absolutely?
But the other major lane is thequestion of what does Redskins
mean?
Not only the origins of theword, but is there something to
(15:57):
this question of?
Is it associated with bountieson Native American people?
And I actually want to get intoan article that was written.
It was in Esquire magazine andthis was back from 2014.
Update yes, this was the titleof the article.
Yes, a redskin does in factmean the scalped head of a
(16:19):
Native American sold for cash,or pelt sold for cash.
Now, this is what's interestingand I'm parsing words, but I
think it's important and youknow, again, this probably bring
me a lot of heat, but this iswhat they have.
Winona, minnesota, from theDaily Republican article
September 24, 19, I'm sorry,september 24, 1863.
(16:42):
It reads the state reward fordead Indians has been increased
to $200 for every red skin sentto purgatory.
This sum is more than the deadbodies of all Indians east of
the Red River are worth.
That's awful, no question aboutit.
It and there are maybeunintended consequences too, and
(17:03):
I don't think what I'm gettingready to say is a good thing
either.
But I'm no fan of daniel snyder,nor do I think anyone that's
ever had a redskin history orwashington football team history
is really, really fond of himand what I?
I couldn't believe whathappened.
I was in that period from 1966on, where there was a 40,000
(17:25):
person waiting list for seasontickets, the last games I went
to in the last 10 years.
There are 75% other teams fansthere now with the command oh
gosh, yeah, if you went toRedskins Eagles, let's say 2019,
last year the team name, it was75.
To Redskins-Eagles, let's say2019, last year the team name,
it was 75%.
Green, absolutely.
And with the advent of StubHuband all the other I'm not trying
(17:48):
to do an advertisement, but youknow when you have all these
ticket things, fan ticket typeof situations pretty much the
Washington people have been.
Once the team starts to lose,they start unloading all the
tickets and if you're in Philly,trip to DC is not that far Hell
look at the family together andgo down and see our team play
in Washington and go, you know,yell and scream at them how bad
(18:09):
they are.
And that's pretty much whathappened.
And as someone who grew up inRFK and brother, I'm going to
tell you what.
If you never experienced RFK,you had to be there, and people
that listen to this did knowthat place rocked.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
that was sacred ground yeah, I watch a lot of
games.
I mean I obviously I've neverbeen there, but I mean, when you
were there, fan yeah yeah, whenyou were there it was.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
It was a special, special place and I never liked
the new stadium.
It seemed artificial.
It's 12 miles outside the city.
It's out in maryland somebodygod bless maryland, but I mean
it's just not the same.
The team needs to be in thecity, but he's in ticket holder
no, I never was.
I actually, when I started going, I went with people that had it
and then I you know, in thelast 20, 25 years it was more of
(18:56):
a group of us would gettogether.
Matter of fact, I have the seantayun Taylor the 21, towel up.
I was at his last game againstthe Eagles and I've done a lot
of podcasts where I've said thishe's the best athlete player
I've ever seen.
I'm in Williamsburg, Virginianow and I can tell you we all
know Lawrence Taylor's the bestplayer To me.
(19:18):
Lawrence Taylor, that's onlyLawrence Taylor.
He's right here fromWilliamsburg Virginia but the
best.
I miss LT.
One time I had a chance to seehim play.
He did not play Redskins Giantsbut yeah, Sean Taylor is the
greatest player I ever saw and Iwas at his last game and then
the game after his death and Ithink that kind of tarnished
(19:41):
that stadium.
For me too, it was just so sadwhen he passed and the way he
passed.
And then it was anotherdownhill slide until RG3, and I
was at the game to beat theCowboys to win the NFC East.
And then I have not gotten into see Jaden Daniels yet, but
how do you not love him?
Speaker 1 (20:00):
I like him.
He's cool under fire, couldswing the rock, I mean, there's
no doubt about it.
Um, he's just uh cool underpressure.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, he's good, I like him I think he proves
another premise too that I'vediscussed with a lot of people.
I think that there was a realrash of bad choices being made
with kids who had a breakoutjunior year at 21.
You know they had two yearskind of red shirt and are
sitting around one year redshirt, sit around a year, then
they have a breakout season,then they go.
(20:30):
Hey, I'm gonna go into thedraft and the thing about
daniels and you're kind, you'regonna see it more and more
probably with the nil.
Kids are getting some money inschool but why not just stay in
school?
But he had 55 starts in collegebetween Arizona State and LSU.
The kid played 55 games and heturned 24 in December.
I'm not knocking it, but he wasno child when he got in there.
(20:51):
I mean, you know he had somechance for advancement and I
think there's too many kids thathave been ruined at 21.
The game is overwhelming andthey never recover from their
first bad season in the NFL.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
So is there a controversy?
I mean, you're not in KansasCity, but is there a controversy
with the Chiefs name?
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Yes, but not to the degree.
Okay, it's funny because I didone of these podcasts on my own
and I was told long ago you knowthat supposedly Joe Rogan
famously said don't ever look atthe comments, but I do one time
and I get.
That's right, white guy tryingto explain, you know, native
american culture today, whatever.
But the point I made on theshow and it came up in a short
(21:29):
on youtube the point I wasmaking is I didn't recognize why
the washington team, under heat, didn't pivot back to braves,
keep the, keep the image on thehelmet, keep all that.
And it's historically the firstname.
So you've gone Boston Redskinsto Boston.
I mean sorry, Boston Braves toBoston Redskins, washington
(21:51):
Redskins hey, revert back toBraves, it's in the history.
And Atlanta keeps it.
So I make that comment alongwith their tomahawk chopping,
still in Kansas City, and I saidand they get no heat.
And I literally then said well,I won't say no heat, but so I
get this comment like it's araging fire of hatred towards
(22:14):
the Chiefs.
So you know, I kind of go lookat it.
It's all four years ago.
So, as the Redskins and indiansare dropping their names,
people are really pushing thecheaps.
However, right before this lastsuper bowl, there's some people
in the parking lot making somesome noise about it, but that's
one thing I can say aboutwashington fans.
(22:34):
There was a hog gets.
I mean that's interesting thatin the 80s there was a bunch of
men, women, wearing dresses thatwere businessmen.
I remember that, yeah, smokingcigars and stuff, but when you
look at how fans act, youraverage M1A1 Redskin fan had a
(22:56):
jersey on, that's kind of all.
I remember fan had a jersey on,that's kind of all I remember.
Now there were some people thatyou might every once in a while
see some kind of dress, but Inever saw a tomahawk chop and I
never saw certain types of fanbehavior that you see in other
places where native americanmascots or teams have been used
(23:17):
they have the seminoles too.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Right and and was that Florida or is that Florida?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
State, florida State.
That brings up an interestingpoint, because when this name
controversy started I had afriend that said you know what
Snyder should have done?
I'm like what's that?
He goes, he should have gone toa tribe, a recognized nation of
one of the nations of NativeAmericans, and said let's
partner and I'm like, talk to memore.
And he goes well, you know whythey never pull Seminoles right?
(23:43):
And I said because the SeminoleIndians are in on it.
And then I do a little researchand that's it.
So that is the state team forthe Seminole Indians.
And if you say to them, hey, Ifeel kind of offended.
They say how about?
(24:03):
Screw you, it's our team andthat's why it remains the
florida state seminoles, becausethe actual seminole nation is
in league with the college andthey love it.
So they do their thing.
And being the seminoles andhaving a spear on the side of
the helmet, you're not going totalk them out of that, because
it's their team what's theoverall?
Speaker 1 (24:16):
I mean this, obviously I know your opinion,
but overall the fans in general.
I mean I don't know if youcould speak for everyone, but
the overall majority of fans.
So they don't like this change.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
They hate the name.
They hate the name, but do youhate the name?
I do, I do, I mean.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
I again I'm coming from a different perspective,
not not a diehard fan of theteam, but I said, you know, I
was like commanders, okay, Ilike that.
You know, I mean not thegreatest name, but it was like
okay, but again, it's not myteam that I root for, but so you
don't like it when you go tothe games.
Yeah, what percentage of peopleare still wearing the old
(24:52):
school?
85 of red skin stuff likethat's all they wear the jerseys
.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
The helmets, obviously, but the symbols, some
of that too, they wear helmets.
No, but yeah, if you go to agame now, they're still wearing
everything.
And now that dan quinn's in,you know he was out one day with
the w, with a hanging featheron his shirt, and it all hell
broke loose like what's hetrying to say?
What subtle message is comingout there?
And there's been talk againthat they're going, they're
(25:21):
going to have to revisit whatevery team does with throwbacks.
If you're going to wear athrowback, what the hell are you
going to do?
That's something that has comeup is how do you not throw a
throwback?
And is it the spear helmets?
Less offensive as the arm, butit's got a feather on it.
Less offensive is the Indianhead.
Is, you know, the two guns,white calf imagery of the
(25:43):
buffalo nickel figure.
Is that offensive?
Again, I don't know how thatbeautiful picture of this native
american can be ugly, I meanagain.
But now one argument that I'vecertainly heard that I've never
really thought about because I'mnot maybe in that position, but
there have been native, youknow, we're simply, as a people,
(26:08):
not a mascot to others.
Makes sense.
But again, what if you're theSeminoles and you're digging the
imagery and you love being partof Florida State.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
I know you're a baseball fan, Just curious are
you a Capitals fan?
Speaker 2 (26:24):
No, I respect hockey.
You know when you freeze somewater and you put some in out
there with some sticks.
You know all that.
I get that.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
I only bring it up because Ovechkin is about to
break one of the greatestrecords ever.
I mean Wayne Gretzky.
Oh, you know, I mean, even ifyou don't follow hockey,
everyone knows Wayne Gretzky'srecord was supposedly
untouchable.
So yeah, I'm a huge hockey fan.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
So it's like you know .
Anyway, it's a big deal in thesports world.
Well, in your opening I want totell you too.
I don't know what it is aboutme being from Virginia, but I
think all of my favorite peopleare from Pennsylvania and I
absolutely love Pittsburgh.
Yeah, it's the most solidpeople in the world.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Yeah, not to disparage.
You Lived there until I was 30.
Moved here.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
It's a great town.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Yeah it it's great town, yeah, it's wonderful.
And I mean I could not imaginethe steelers playing in a
suburban area outside of wherethey are now.
It would just be like I don'tknow, not the same viral passion
driving, you know, 10 miles toget to the place.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
So yeah and uh.
I also noticed a different fanwhen the stadium opened, so in
rfk.
You know you'd see some peoplecoming in drinking with the
paper bag covering.
You know this is some.
It was some, some guys off thestreets.
You know there were some coolguys and stuff, and then I would
go to games and the wholecorporate box that's beside you
(27:48):
is empty, like nobody shows up.
It's drizzling, it's a littlebit too wet out or something you
know, and you see bob'scorporate whatever, and there's
like 10 seats together.
These are times I did the faint, like the what are the stub
hubs or something get a ticketand then you look and there's
like 117 seats empty.
And you just go down there andyou basically find the weather's
(28:10):
not quite right.
Man, rfk, every seat was filled.
I don't care how bad theweather, it was just a different
type of fan and you know itbecame more the suburbs fan, I
think as well.
Plus, you mix in losing, but in.
But in the 60s, though, you knowwhen these, the history of
these sold out, started, it wasthe Jurgensen, smith, taylor and
(28:32):
Mitchell show.
You know, one of the greatstats of all time.
When you go back and look atJurgensen, of course he's my
favorite player.
When you go back and look atSonny, he was putting up crazy
numbers for the 60s.
So he has the great seasonwhere he has 288 completion, 580
attempts for 37,47 yards, whichsets a record.
Ain't those 32 touchdowns?
(28:53):
And Taylor Smith and Mitchellfinish one, two and four in
receiving.
That's an historic mark.
Three receivers, a tight end andtwo wides or a flanker and a
split, are one, two and four incatches in a season.
(29:14):
So Sonny's lighting up theskies and they're six, and
they're like you know, they tendto be six, six and two ties all
the time and stuff the Autogramera, bill McPeak Autogram, but
everyone's there because Sonnyputs on the best aerial show in
America and they lose 42 to 41,but he's lighting it up.
And Bobby Mitchell and CharlieTaylor and Jerry Smith should be
(29:37):
a Hall of Famer.
But yeah, it was good timesbecause the fans just loved it.
So when Lombardi comes in, it'sa new life.
When George Allen comes in,they start heading in another
direction and Joe Gibbs is a godthere.
He's just a god in inwashington because he brought it
.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Let me ask you this uh yeah, in a hypothetical world
.
Right, you have to eliminatebaseball or football.
Which one would you eliminate?
Which one would you keep as afan yourself?
Speaker 2 (30:08):
wow, I don't know, because, to be honest with you,
this is another whole road wecan go down I thought for sure
you'd say football shock well,no, no, no, no.
10 years ago I I played baseballin college and I am heavily
involved in working with a lotof kids, a lot of kids that
played in pro ball.
You know I'm an attorney.
(30:28):
I did play a representationworst business, worst business
on earth.
But it's kind of like I'm inbaseball in a different way.
It's like when I watch a gameI'm looking at the player.
I'm a red sox fan because, forwhatever crazy reason, I love
just remski I'm some kid growingup in virginia and I love yas
and yas, one of the greatestplayers of all time.
Then I fall in love with JimRice, and it's Fred Lynn, and
(30:50):
it's Fisk and it's Dewey God, Ilove Dwight Evans.
So you know, there's all theseplayers in Boston that I like.
I'm not in Boston, but when itcame to my love of Washington
and the Redskins it was anentirely different love.
But what I was going to say,like 10 years ago, I'm on the
bus and tell these group of guysI'm like guys, you know, pro
football peaked in the 80s so Icoach, I don't think those guys
(31:11):
could play today.
I'm like you don't thinklawrence taylor could play today
.
You don't think reggie whitecould play today.
Like what do you think thoseguys were like?
I've seen him in person.
So we get in this big, longargument.
So when I put out the fire Ifinally said, okay, guys, who's
your bo jackson?
That ended it.
That it.
You don't have a Bo Jackson,guys, nobody's Bo Jackson.
(31:32):
Dion was playing two sports.
Brian Jordan was playing twosports.
Those guys don't exist.
Jay Schrader was the thirdoverall pick in baseball and
went and played.
You know he had a career in theNFL.
I mean it kind of flamed out alittle bit there, but he could
throw a football 85 yards.
And john elway marino, warrenmoon, I'm sorry, guys, the
player I don't know.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
You tell me it looks like flag football to me now
well, it's funny you bring thatup because I have a little
segment I call this or that.
I'm just going to run somestuff by you.
Just tell me quickly.
Yeah, your preference.
Yeah, yeah, you kind ofanswered some of these already.
Yeah, just for just for the funthing, just to wrap it up, uh,
luxury box or peanut heaven.
In other words, you go to agame, you want to be in the
(32:15):
luxury box or peanut heaven it.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
It depends.
I've been in luxury boxes whenwhen I was a lawyer.
You know it's triple a stadiumbut I was luxury box I went to
and I went more to likesocialize because I could care
less about the result on thefield let's talk.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Talk Redskins, I mean commanders, football, I mean
professionals.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Back in the day when it was Redskins, yeah.
I definitely wanted to be downthere in the rain and the mud
and all the rest.
I wanted to be beside the field, yeah.
I wanted to be as close to thefield.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
How about Jalen Daniels?
Speaker 2 (32:44):
or Joe Theismann.
Oh man, you hurt me there, man,because I love Joe, but I mean
gosh Jalen Daniels, he Not oneyear though.
No, but Jaden, I mean he's abeautiful kid, he always thanks
God for his blessings.
I mean you can't, but I loveJoe because Joe was a warrior.
Joe was a warrior the night hebroke his leg.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Oh, that was brutal.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
It was awful.
But you know, I saw a piecewith him and Taylor together
talking about it.
What I thought, man it was likea guy thing is Taylor said I
felt so bad because I respectedyou so much.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Ripon.
I might be saying his name MarkRipon Ripon or Doug Williams.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Once again it's two quarterbacks that won Super
Bowls and then once again theircommonalities.
They had nothing on the backend of it and I used to say, and
I love, I mean I love DougWilliams, I love what he did,
but Doug Williams did pick thebest day of his life to have the
best day of his life.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
I mean, you know, you peak, you peak.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
I mean it's like, yeah, that was a perfect timed
day and Rippon was 91 Super Bowl, and by 93, he's a bent guy and
he's on his way kind of out, soI mean, both of them did not
follow well the Super Bowlvictories.
Joe Gibbs' 1.0, the first stint.
The only losing season he hasis 88, when it's really between
(34:03):
Williams and Rippon as thestarter and Williams has some
injury issues.
But yeah, neither one of themhad a really good season to
follow.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
How about?
Would you prefer an offensivebattle you know 45, 44 or a
defensive battle?
Speaker 2 (34:18):
uh, I would never have thought this, but because
of what's happening, guys, someof these chiefs bills games to
keep going to the playoffs andall.
It's kind of making me sickbecause I recognize there's no
way either one of them is goingto stop the other one.
So it's kind of making me sickbecause I recognize there's no
way either one of them is goingto stop the other one.
So it literally does come downto who gets the ball last.
You're sitting there countingseconds, like okay, they're
going to score here, and then 37seconds later, mahomes is going
(34:41):
to score another touchdown andken allen score another one, and
you're talking about fourtouchdowns in the span of a
minute and a half.
And that's really what.
What's happening?
So, because they won't let themplay defense anymore, and I
think that's really what it is.
I think it's kind of aninferior product.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
You're leaning towards defensive.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
I respected that.
Yeah.
Yeah, now that everything is apinball machine scoring, I
wouldn't say it's boring, butthere seems to be something
lacking in the competition endof it.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
I think with the defensive thing, a break meant a
lot more yeah, I mean, I thinkI know the answer to this next
one.
I was going to say old school,70s football or today's game oh,
definitely 70s, although mypeak time would be 80s, I
thought.
I mean, I met before theysoftened it up.
And you know, I mean like thekickoff rule and onside kicks.
I don't like.
I don't like the new kickoffrule.
(35:31):
I understand the safety part,but you know, and then you've
got to tell someone you're goingto make an onside kick.
Also I don't get it.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
No, that's.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
I like the surprise element.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Well and this is something else, too, that I hate
about baseball with you, don'tthrow the four pitches for the
walk anymore.
I don't like that either.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I like the pitch count though I do like that or
not the pitch count, the pitchclock.
I thought I wouldn't, but Ilike that.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
I've gotten used to it, but that was always one of
the beauties of baseball.
There is no clock.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
The last one, john Riggins, or Clinton Portis.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Well, actually, I think the world of Clinton
Portis, I think the world ofClinton Porter sucks too.
I really do.
Great player and he was tradedfor Champ Bailey, which did
break my heart, because ChampBailey is one of those guys like
Sean Taylor.
You had to see it.
As a matter of fact, I sawChamp Bailey, deion Sanders and
Daryl Green on the same team in2000.
And they could all run, butChamp Bailey was twice as big.
So he's one of my favorites.
(36:26):
So it's kind of hard not tolove Riggins more than anything
because he got us a ring andhe's a Hall of Famer and yeah.
I mean I'd take Riggins over himif you're pushing me on that.
But, Clinton, if you'relistening, I love you.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Yeah, we thought the world.
So who is your Mount Rushmoreof Washington commanders teams
or Redskins commanders over theyears?
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Mount Rushmore- who's on that?
You know that's that has beenasked and I am.
It's not like my license plateis SJ9 HOF.
It's like Sonny Jurgensen, Notlike.
That's how I still get risk intags.
I haven't given them up inVirginia.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
But you're putting Jurgensen on there, right.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
I have to put Sonny, but that's.
I think that there's a.
The problem is that I thinkSammy Ball has to be on there.
Sammy Ball is an all-aroundplayer, defensive back I mean.
He literally had a game withfour touchdown passes and four
interceptions in the same gameand he was the league's best
punter, and for many years hewas the history's best punter,
until I think some people havepassed him is he playing?
Speaker 1 (37:30):
is he playing from 37 ?
To?
Speaker 2 (37:31):
52, but yeah, all right, he's there ball jergensen
well, I'm gonna.
I'm gonna hold off on sunny fora moment because, as hard as
that is, I think ball has to beon it and I think charlie taylor
has to be on it.
I think charlie taylor has tobe on it.
I think Charlie Taylor has tobe on it.
He is a Hall of Famer.
(37:52):
But then I get all wound aroundthe axle about Mitchell,
because Mitchell was a pioneerand a Hall of Famer and he's one
of the numbers that's retired.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
It's a lot of choices .
I mean it's a tough wall.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Daryl Green generally goes under.
So I'll just throw out somenames and then we can kind of
pare down.
But the other guy I tell you,when it gets into the emotional
hard stuff, love a player morethan anybody.
It's Art Monk.
I mean, I don't know that Iever loved a player as much as I
did Monk and I was one pissedoff human being for the longest
time.
And I'll tell you somethingthis is controversial too.
(38:28):
I think that Gibbs,christianity and the type of
guys he brought in really wassomething that hurt them for
recognition.
If you watch and I watched itthe other night the induction of
Daryl Green and Art Monk, a lotof what they talk about is
their love of their wife, theirchildren, their families and God
.
Whether people like it or not,that's who they are.
Like it or not, that's who theyare right.
(38:51):
And I remember sometime afriend of mine said well, I
don't know if monk was.
I said you know what?
When you leave a game, when youleave a game of competition and
you've done more of it that yougot paid for than anyone that
ever played you're a hall offamer.
He left the game the number one, all-time receiver for
receptions.
He got blown away down the lineby jerry rice and other
receivers.
But how can you leave the gamecatching the ball more than any
(39:13):
way?
Well, he didn't have asignature catch.
I said you know, I think a lotof it is.
He slept with his own wife.
He never got a stint in jail,you know, and he's a beautiful
guy and he's very quiet.
He handed the ball to theofficial.
He didn't have an elaboratescheme of how he's going to
celebrate.
I really believe that hurt him.
Now, daryl Green was a littlebit different character, but
also a man of God, and he got inon first ballot.
(39:35):
But I don't see how Art Monktakes eight years to get in.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
So you're putting him on the mountain, I mean the
Mount Rushmore.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Well, he's my guy, so , but Well, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
You got Ball, you got Monk Green.
You got ball, you got monk.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Green.
Green has to be on it.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Joe.
Joe Theismann, no.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
No, joe's not ahead of Sonny, for sure.
Okay, I'm going to go Sonny.
I'm going to go Sonny ball andI'm going to.
I'm going to go monk and greenand like that, yeah, but still
I'm leaving off guys I love.
That's fine.
I still love Bobby Mitchell andCharlie Taylor.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
Jack, this has been great.
I mean a lot of information, alot of good stuff.
I really appreciate you comingon, though I learned a lot of
history.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
I appreciate it, man.
I appreciate being here and agood Pittsburgh guy like
yourself, I'd love to have youcome see me one time on a show
yeah, I want your Steeler viewson it.
And Pirates I want you to giveme some pirate stories if you're
into baseball.
On the pirate side skeins.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Thank god for paul skeins yeah, yeah, there's some
good.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
There's some good history, though you got some
great players you have beenlistening to unmuted with pop.
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