September 27, 2023 • 41 mins
How often do we unknowingly contribute to achievement toxicity in our children's lives? Unmasking this heavy topic, my co-host Lisa and I explore the devastating impacts and discuss ways to break free from this unhealthy pursuit of excellence. Taking cues from a report by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, we examine how excessive pressure to excel ranks as a prominent environmental stressor impacting adolescent wellness. Our conversation navigates the tragic consequences habitual tendencies and conditioned responses could lead to and emphasizes the need for greater awareness and understanding in our parenting approach.
However, there's more to parenting than just mitigating pressures. The juggle between nurturing our children's individual interests and exposing them to new experiences can be daunting. We tackle this challenge head-on - discussing the importance of quality time, the freedom for our children to experience boredom, and striking the right balance between our aspirations for them and their own passions. We delve into the potential of affirmations and the key role of effective communication in aligning our values to those of our children. Our dialogue also warns against our expectations overshadowing precious family moments.
The episode culminates with a deep introspection on the need to overcome achievement toxicity. We encourage parents to reflect upon their own self-worth, beyond external accomplishments, and translate that critical understanding to their children. Resisting the urge to overcommit ourselves and our children, we argue, is a key step towards healthier, happier families. The potency of affirming words cannot be understated - it's these verbal assurances that can help our children realize their inherent value, independent of achievements. Join us in this enlightening conversation, as we strive to usher in a change for the betterment of our children.
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Book Referenced: Never Enough by Jennifer Wallace
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Paradigm you podcast.
How do you know that you matter?
You're listening to theParadigm you podcast and on this
week's episode, my co-host,lisa Sarnowski, and I unpacked
that exact question.
We untangled the concept ofself-worth from achievement and
recognized that it's not aboutthe achievement, but it's truly
(00:23):
about the journey.
Listen in.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
You're listening to the Paradigm you podcast.
You're about to starttransforming your life by
growing your mind and expandingyour paradigms.
Here we'll cover real-lifetopics, just like the stuff
you'd share with a good friend.
This podcast will serve uptopics that weigh on our hearts
and keep us up at night, whetherit's navigating parenthood and
becoming an adult, orway-finding person of
development, marriage and money.
You, my friend, are in theright place.
(00:47):
I'm glad you're here.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
All right, well, welcome to the Paradigm you
podcast.
It's another week and I am herewith the lovely co-host, lisa
Sarnowski, and my name is AprilMarluski-Hadzinski, and together
we are pretty excited to talkabout this topic and I'm going
to throw it right over to Lisa,because this topic came out of
something she witnessed and itjust sent us on a huge, awesome
(01:11):
conversation and we want toinvite you to be part of it.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
Thank you, april.
It's so great to be back herewith you and talking about
achievement toxicity as parents.
This is a new passionate topicof mine, and let me tell you
where it started.
So my son joined Cross Countrythis year, so it's first time
Cross Country and that kid Iused to joke.
(01:35):
He never learned how to walk,he learned to run.
So I was really excited to seehow well he would do, and it
turns out he's actually kind ofslow.
And what was interesting aboutthat process was for me and my
inside game as a parent,thinking through oh my goodness,
(01:56):
why is he so slow?
But equally observing whathappened afterwards.
Because afterwards he told methat there was a pack of girls
from his team cheering him onbut saying, come on, slow Pokes.
And then there was someone inthe crowd that said, oof, I'm
(02:16):
going to have to go running withhim, as if to imply.
And that really caught me offguard because it made me more
aware of my own thoughts.
Because as I reflected on therace, every time I looked at him
he had the biggest smile on hisface.
He was so happy to just beparticipating, to run alongside
(02:37):
a buddy, and isn't that enough?
And so I was going to postsomething on Facebook and then I
found this article by chanceand it talks about achievement
toxicity with kids, and that'swhat I want to talk to you about
today.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
You know, when Lisa brought this up, I loved this
concept because it's well.
Quite frankly, it put a lump inmy throat because this is
something that I've talked withLisa about for a really long
time, because and actually I'veprobably shared on some of the
episodes as well this is astruggle that I've had
personally, just wanting toconstantly achieve the next
(03:21):
thing, achieve the next thingand placing value on the
achievement instead of thejourney.
And it was interesting whenLisa, when you brought this up,
I was like, oh, I can totallyrelate.
So it was actually quite funnythat you said hey, I want to
talk about this topic becauseI'm like yes, I am a recovering
overdoer.
(03:41):
Yes, you are.
I don't know if I'm recovering,I'm working through it.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
It is a work in progress for you for sure.
Well, what really stood out tome is when I read this article.
First of all, I we can linkthis, maybe in the show notes
apes for everybody but what Iwant.
What really stood out to me is,in a little bit of context here
, back when I worked in highereducation and it was, I think,
(04:09):
my second job in higher ed I wasworking over at UW Milwaukee.
There was a professionaldevelopment opportunity over in
Madison with a guy named TimWise.
At the time he was pretty new.
Now he's a very, verywell-known anti-racism speaker
and it wasn't positioned asanti-racism back then because
that wasn't the vernacular.
(04:30):
However, when I went to this,this professional development
opportunity, he was speakingabout drug use and who abuses
them the most.
And typically, when you saythat, an image comes to mind and
it's usually not the image of asuburban white child, however
(04:53):
disproportionately so that's thedemographic that's misusing
drugs.
So already back then, I hadthis idea of what we're visually
told and what some of ourassumptions are aren't
necessarily accurate.
So when I read this statisticon achievement toxicity, it
really floored me.
Back in 2018, there was a reportdone by what is called the
(05:16):
Robert Wood Johnson Foundation,which is about public health and
policy, and they named the topfour environmental conditions
that negatively impactadolescent wellness.
Now, we've known for a whilenow.
Anyone that's kind of dabbledinto this world or listened in
on adverse effects for parentingwill know that they've studied
(05:40):
poverty, trauma, discrimination,those huge topics.
We've known that for decades,but the new one that has popped
up is this quote-unquoteexcessive pressure to excel.
So, according to the report, afamily or school environment
characterized by extremepressure to succeed or outdo
(06:02):
everyone else, often, but notexclusively, occurring in
especially affluent communities,can affect youth in
significantly, in significantways, including causing high
levels of stress, anxiety,alcohol, drug use and dependence
In some instances.
This led me to a book where itreally does talk of it.
(06:26):
It can lead even to childsuicide.
And I started thinking well,april, right, you're my bestie,
I get that.
Like you are an avid doer.
We've talked about that.
I think you've shared with thelisteners on a lot of podcasts.
Some of that is a conditionedresponse, right, a habitual
response.
At this point, would you saythat, yeah, definitely, yeah,
(06:50):
I've had the other effect.
I'm on the other side of thecoin, growing up for me, I was.
I have vivid memories of beingbored a whole lot and I joke
that out of boredom came myobsessive passion for organizing
, because I just rememberorganizing and reorganizing
things.
But as families we didn't goand do things on weekends, we
(07:12):
just kind of hung out.
So I started wondering wheredid my parental drive come for
this achievement?
Because it wasn't inherent tome.
Yes, I can be competitive, butI'm not competitive for
competitive sake.
Where did I get wrapped up inthis idea of like being with the
(07:33):
Joneses or that my kids gradesneed to be a certain way, or I
would just have those thoughtsand that's been really
interesting for me to unpack andjust really lean into and learn
more about and look around andgo.
What are we doing?
Why am I in February signing mykids up for camps in the summer
(07:54):
?
What is that?
And you know it's mind blowingto me and the pressure that not
only puts on the familystructure and a lot of times
those sort of activities getplanned by the mothers but also
what kind of inherent pressureis that telling our kids?
And the biggest takeaway for meis that in reading this book
(08:20):
that I will share the title toin a second, let me just pull it
up here.
It's called Never Enough whenAchievement Culture Becomes
Toxic and what we Can Do Aboutit, and this is an award-winning
journalist called JenniferWallace.
It's an extraordinary book.
I'm almost all the way throughit, but what she talks about is
(08:40):
that kids inherently walk away,identifying that their
achievement or performance iswhat makes them worthy.
They are only worthy based ontheir achievement, based on
their performance, and that, tome, was a big message.
(09:02):
I wanna make sure that our kidsknow they're worthy because
they're here and anyway, I havea lot to say on all of this, but
I'm curious what's standing outto you as a parent and someone
who's equally navigating her ownjourney through overachievement
?
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Oh, lees, you're making me wanna cry.
I can relate so deeply, beingsomebody who, growing up, was
that overachieving person I'veshared with you.
I think I was in every clubavailable to me at one point in
my high school career and, quitefrankly, probably not enjoying
(09:47):
any of them, but feeling like Ineeded to be part of all of
these things because I needed to.
Of course I gotta try that, andI think it started, though,
with curiosity I wanna checkthese out, like that sounds
interesting.
Ooh, that sounds interesting.
But then it turned into a let'sdo that, let's do this, let's
(10:08):
try these things.
And now, as a parent, I amwrestling with that as a habit
so deep it's, so deeplyingrained in me.
And my husband so, tony, he'sthe opposite.
He's much like you, did notgrow up like that and cannot
even wrap his mind around theidea of our children being
(10:28):
involved in a bajillion things.
Fun fact my kids just told methis weekend that bajillion is
not an actual one.
I have not confirmed that, butapparently I should stop using
that one.
But we wrestle with this in ourhome all the time.
When my kids were younger, I didfeel that pressure to engage
(10:50):
them in a lot of differentactivities, because I had heard
from parents that were a coupleof steps ahead of me hey, if you
don't get your kids involved insome of these things, they
won't actually get toparticipate.
By the time that, quite frankly, I probably started
participating in these things,yeah, and recognizing the
pressure that I felt it.
(11:12):
And then, all of a sudden, theconversations that happened in
our home of what are our values,what is okay with us and what
are we willing to commit to, andhow do we want to teach our
kids their own choices, but alsorole model, a lot of different
things with regards toinvolvement and activities,
(11:38):
education, all sorts of things,lees, but what we have decided
is we wanna teach our kids howto be engaged in community and
how to build relationships andhow to try things that they may
not necessarily try, and if theylike it, we support it.
However, we have someboundaries, and I'm guessing you
(11:59):
do too.
I'd be interested to hear whatyou think but we have a boundary
in our home that our kids can'tparticipate in more than one
thing at a time, with the caveatthat they have to do something
that I choose too.
So right now, for example, myyoungest has to finish swimming
lessons because I feel likethat's a safety piece for me.
My older kids have already donethat, and so my older kids, I'm
(12:22):
like, all right now I want youguys to try something a little
bit more creative that you mightnot necessarily try on your own
.
So they're both trying pianoright now and, interestingly,
they both are digging it.
That's awesome.
They wouldn't have tried thaton their own.
Then, beyond that, I encouragethem to be part of something, to
build a relationship and for,ideally, just to figure out what
(12:46):
they actually like.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Yeah, you know there's a I love all of that.
There's definitely seasons withparenting, right, Cause at a
particular age you're like youjust want to expose them to
different things and, for betteror worse, as parents nowadays
we have access to so manyopportunities, especially when
you drill down into what thisbook and these statistics are
(13:09):
referring to.
They're talking about the top25 to 20% of earners which,
according to the book,statistically, regardless of
family size, is earning 130,000or above.
So we have access to thingsthere's, especially when you
live close or nearby to a city.
In a city, there's museumseverywhere.
(13:30):
There's universities everywhere.
With the advent of onlinelearning opportunities,
depending on how you choose toengage that with your kids,
nowadays there's kind of anendless supply.
So, on the one hand, exposureis easier to find.
On the other hand, itdelineates the opportunity to
(13:50):
create those communities right,Because now you're just with
whomever you're with in thosepockets, unless you facilitate
getting a group of kids together.
But there's also that season oflife where the kids starts to
find what they really enjoy andthen you want to foster that as
well as continue to expose themto other things that they're not
(14:12):
learning in the classroom, andthis is an equal passion of mine
is the school systems can onlyteach so much.
And as parents, I feel like andit took me a long while to get
here, April can test to it butas parents, it's ultimately our
responsibility to fill the gapsof education that we want them
to learn, and that's beyond justlife skills.
(14:34):
But I can tell you right now mykid's school is never gonna
have a robotics class, right, soI need to find that elsewhere.
And for a while, as I reflectback and after I read this
article and now book, I wasthinking man, have I been
pushing my kids too much?
Have I been getting them waytoo involved?
(14:56):
Have I become part of thatprocess, that achievement
toxicity that's all over in ourneighborhoods.
It's just rampant to be in moreactivities and posted on social
to make sure all the parentssee the amazing basketball camp
that you were just at, orwhatever.
And then I realized I may havebeen at one point, but now I'm
(15:20):
really focused and intentionalabout figuring out who this
unique individual is andunearthing what they're
passionate about and findingways to foster that outside of
possibly just the schoolstructure, because we can and
there's a dance of not feelingguilty about having access to
(15:41):
allow my kids theseopportunities.
But there's also, to your point,the time and reflection needed
to come back to values, where Iwant you to just be bored.
You know I want you to beuncomfortable.
My son especially does not likebeing bored, so I forced those
opportunities on him and it'sinteresting to navigate those
(16:04):
conversations alongside him.
He can read tens of thousandsof pages a year, so I have no
concerns there.
Academics come easy.
Social skills are, you know,still developing for him.
But the excessive need to builda resume already when you're in
(16:24):
middle school, that's a lot ofwhat the book is talking about.
And it's fascinating to me howI'm not sure if the listeners
both know our higher edbackground they probably know
more about yours, but April andI both have extensive
professional services, studentaffairs in our background.
So higher education is a bigvalue for us and I'm not going
(16:48):
to speak for April, but for mein this day and age to come out
and say I don't know if my kidsare going to college.
That's a big deal for me to say, Not because I don't believe in
higher education, but because Ibelieve it has a place and it
doesn't necessarily mean everykid needs to, and the research
in this book for anyone witholder kids, especially those in
(17:09):
high school, applying tocolleges.
You want to read this bookbecause we don't get a kickback
on this book or anything.
I just think it's that valuablefor parents nowadays to know
they're not alone, to know whattheir kids are honestly
struggling with and to restassured that, regardless of
where they go to college, itdoesn't have to be Ivy League
(17:30):
for them to have the financialsuccess if that's what's really
pushing people today.
So the statistics in the bookare fascinating and it's a solid
reminder as parents that loveshowing your kid how to live
their values and really focusingon mental health and their
(17:52):
overall health is really what'sgoing to catapult them forward.
April.
65% of the jobs that are goingto be available for our kids
don't even exist in our worldtoday.
They don't even exist, and Ikeep telling my son that he's a
big numbers guy as a way to say.
You don't have to pick yourprofession now.
You don't have to know that you, if you do great and if it's a
(18:16):
particular industry where youneed college, absolutely let's
figure that out for you.
But equally, there's so manyopportunities available in our
world today that patting yourresume, constantly having to do,
do, do, do, isn't going to helpour kids at all.
And there's a story in the bookabout a football team.
(18:38):
This is a high school footballteam and, to their credit, they
rallied together to pitchliterally to their head coach.
I believe they wrote it out Imight be getting some of those
details wrong, but they pitchedto their coach that they wanted
one day off a week, and you knowwhat they wanted to do in their
(18:59):
one day off a week.
And this is high school kidsone day off a week so they could
sleep, catch up on homework andspend time with their family.
Holy cow, that that isincredible.
Now, what an amazing team thatwas able to come together and
say this isn't okay.
(19:19):
Practicing doing all the thingsseven days a week is way too
much.
And why have we let that happenas parents?
Why are we saying that this isthe only way to success is to
burn yourself out.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
It's a competitive space.
It really is.
I think that's part of it.
I think oftentimes, as parents,I mean, we've talked with, with
people who've come to us andshared their personal stories
and they said, you know, I lookoutward and I see my, my kids,
opportunities and I hear whateverybody else is doing and I
feel like gosh, I need to getthem involved in more, more and
(19:58):
more.
And at no point in some ofthose conversations are we
hearing how they're pivoting theconversation to why the child
matters.
Yes, but here's the other piece,lisa.
Like we can get on the soapboxright Of, like parenting and
what we think people should bedoing and what we think we
(20:19):
should be doing.
Yeah, and it actually has tostart with us.
Yeah, we have to make sure thatwe understand and we truly
believe to our core that wematter 100%, and then that, and
we're role modeling that, yeah,we're showing our, our children
and these little eyes who arewatching us, hey, I matter, no
(20:42):
matter what I'm involved in, Imatter and I'm here, I'm on this
planet at this moment in timefor a reason Amen.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
Absolutely.
I love that and that's you knowI'm.
I'm having a hard time talkingbecause that that is exactly
that is the core of this is, asparents, we have to heal first,
whatever that means for us andknowing we matter.
That was that one question thatbrought me to my knees and made
(21:13):
me sob.
I'll never forget that moment,and mattering is really the way
forward and making sure our kidsknow that unconditionally.
Hey, the, the score you get onyour assessment, that's great,
that's the number, but you'renot defined by the number.
I'll love you anyway.
(21:34):
And so I think it's us equallylearning that for our own self,
reminding ourselves that, hey,it's not about the fact that we
I don't know that we ran a milein two minutes.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Our house is totally clean.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
Yes, our house is clean, or we have the biggest
house on the block, or you know,whatever that is.
I think that's important.
And then I think it's importantthat we are aware of how we
engage our kids.
If the first thing we do afterschool when we see our kids is
ask them how their test went, itcould be a very innocuous, very
(22:15):
simple question, but it'sreaffirming to them that
whatever they do, however theyperform, could be linked to
their worth.
And so just greeting them hey,how's it going?
And bringing that up laterbecause we're parents, of course
we wanna put a pulse on it andsadly, these kids don't
necessarily just share all thenitty-gritty details we wanna
(22:37):
learn.
But I think it's equally beingaware of those moments and
understanding that your worth isnot tied to the number.
We talk about that in femalediet culture all the time.
Right, step on the scale, dowhat you need to do to track
data, but let's not make itpersonal and the number doesn't
(22:57):
reflect your worth.
So let's start doing that withour kids, with all the
assessments they're doing andall the tests they're doing.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
And as a parent oh, go ahead.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
Yeah, well, I was just gonna say my love language
is words of affirmation, so ifI'm not saying it, it doesn't
connect with my brain as much.
And I know that my son is aswell, which is why I'm a big.
We're big verbal communicatorsin the family.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
to demonstrate that At least what I was gonna say
was thinking through what ourvalues are, ourselves and our
parents, communicating that andeven having that time to
actually have a conversationwith our children to make sure
that they're in line with thosevalues, and then encouraging
(23:42):
them.
Hey, you know what?
Be creative, be criticalthinkers, ask questions,
challenge us on these values,but let's collectively decide
what those values are, becausethen that creates the boundaries
to allow us to say is it a hellyes, or is it a hell no,
whatever, whether it's academicsor it's activities, involvement
(24:04):
of some sort or spending eventoo much time.
You know, I don't remember if Ishared this, but two weekends
ago I was harvesting honey.
Did I share this last week?
Speaker 4 (24:15):
Oh, yes, yeah, I don't know if it was on the
podcast.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
So okay, so well for listeners.
I'm a beekeeper love, love,honey bees.
They're so fascinating to me.
Harvesting honey is a huge painin my butt, not my favorite
thing to do, and what I realizedin that process because I had a
whole weekend to really reflecton that was why am I doing this
?
Is it bringing me joy?
(24:40):
And if there's a piece of itthat's not bringing me joy, what
am I not willing to continue on?
What do I need to mayberecalibrate or sift through?
And it happened again actuallythis weekend I took the kids
apple picking and all of asudden, our whole weekend was
hijacked by prepping and doingall of the fall things that we
(25:02):
like to do.
And halfway through I asked thekids.
I said you guys, do we evenenjoy this, or are we doing this
just because this is somethingwe've done every year?
And it was actually reallyinteresting to hear each of
their perspectives and here, dothey enjoy it, or do they just
be like, oh well, my mom didthis?
So then my mom drags us to thisand has done this since we were
(25:25):
kids, so I should like to dothis.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
And when I got really deep.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
I started asking myself wait a sec.
Did my parents used to take meto go do these things?
Because, quite frankly, I'm nota baker.
I don't like baking.
My applesauce is disgusting Idon't even like applesauce and,
honestly, we just really like todehydrate them all, so it's not
even driven by that.
(25:52):
So what is the value piece?
So we had a great conversationas a family over the weekend of
what are the values and why arewe choosing these activities
Because, quite frankly, we allhave the same amount of time.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
And what we do with that time and how we decide to
use that time is going to be areflection of our environment.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
The values talk is a big one.
It's one I haven't fosteredintentionally enough with my
kids.
I'm curious how the listeners,how you, foster those
conversations.
I know that it was just theautumn equinox this past
Saturday and talking about howfar we've come this year and,
equally, where we want to go.
(26:37):
I'll be upfront and say that Istarted crying because I want to
be more intentional with ourtime.
On the one hand, by the timeour week is done, my kids are
tired and I want to honor that,and so living your values
equally means slowing down andbeing okay and finding the
(26:58):
parents that are willing to havethese conversations with,
because they exist.
There's some other thingshappening at my school right now
, for example, and it's reallyfascinating how everyone has
made an interpretation abouteveryone else when in reality,
there's pockets of people thatthink similarly and just need to
find each other.
And so what I've been findingon my parenting journey is there
(27:22):
was a woman at the soccer gamesStella Header for Soccer match
on Saturday and and quick sidenote afterwards someone asked
did you win?
And she goes I won because Ihad fun and I was like yay.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
That's a parenting win.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
She goes that's what my mother always says and I'm
like, oh gosh, but yeah, it wasa proud moment.
But as we were talking, it wasinteresting because we clearly
parent very similar and it'sapparent how that runs
counterculture that it's OK tohave the small house, it's OK to
have the simple life, it's OKto have downtime.
(28:05):
Yesterday my son just wanted towatch a Harry Potter movie with
me and, as much as I need to bemindful of screen time, I
thought this is great.
Let's just cuddle on the couchand chill out, because clearly
he needed it too.
So, learning how to live yourvalues doesn't necessarily mean
always doing things and I think,or promoting that you did it
(28:31):
with social media brings thisother layer of people need to
know.
Or and I think those are theconversations with parents that
I just want to continue to havethat hey, if your kid is
involved in something,absolutely you and, as the
parent, get to support them andbe in the best version of what
they need that to be.
But I know very clearly nowthat my son meets cross country
(28:53):
to be a social time and that isenough because that's what he
needs, whereas his French horntime he takes seriously and it
doesn't need to be a social.
I don't know how you talk andplay French horn at the same
time.
I think if ever there wassomeone who could figure that
out, he could but point taken.
So I think it's equally, asparents, as much as we need to
(29:15):
heal and have those values,conversation and be more
intentional, to just keepsharing with other people.
Because I can tell you rightnow in April, you're nodding
your head for the listeners.
We're having conversation afterconversation and everyone keeps
saying why are we still tryingto keep up with the Joneses?
What does it even matter?
(29:36):
And I was at a women's wellnessretreat yesterday and the whole
group of women basically walkedaway going, if I don't change,
after COVID.
That's on me Like after thatentire time we lived a different
life, we wanted to be adifferent way, and now it's
ultimately up to me.
And it was interesting becauseone woman actually said I just
(29:59):
have to learn how to beuncomfortable, because going
against the grain isn't alwayseasy.
But I think there's so manymore parents out there, so many
more moms out there like us, andso I'm just here to advocate
for you, to say it's OK to notpad your kid's resume starting
in middle school so they get anhonor roll in high school, or so
(30:22):
their high school resume is soamazing they get into an Ivy
League school that maybe youwent to.
It's OK to let them find theirown path and they will be
extraordinary, as long as youallow them to be.
And I'm living it with you andit's very uncomfortable, like I
said, that cross-country meet Icould just hear it in my brain
why is he running faster?
(30:43):
Where is he already?
And then he comes around thiscorner with the biggest grin I
think I've ever seen on thatkid's mug and I thought I don't
even know what I'm worried about.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
That's pretty awesome .
And to circle this back, leis,I think that it really does come
down to how we're role modeling, yeah, how we're the stories
that we're telling ourselves,what we're embracing as far as
why we matter, and I think, justthe role modeling in realizing
(31:17):
we're not going to be everything.
I think you actually you taughtme this a long time ago You're
like I can't do it all.
Actually, that's not how yousaid it, but I feel like you had
said something.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
It sounds like me.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
At one point.
We're like I can't do all ofthose things at once.
I say those same things in myhousehold and I say that
oftentimes to myself and I'mworking on embracing that Like
OK, what's in line with myvalues, and recognizing I can't
do all of the things.
It's unruly, simplistic.
A real quick side note, butthen I do think that I want to
(31:52):
come back to talking about theself-worth piece a little bit.
More is.
For years I've watched peopleoverachieve and, as somebody who
a lot of people confide in forboth of us and, as you'd
mentioned, we both have a lot ofexperience working in higher ed
(32:12):
I used to have a lot of collegestudents in my office on a
regular basis processing whythey weren't enjoying their
experience and what I realizedwas there's a culture that numbs
by being over just beingovercommitted, yes, and I think
(32:34):
by being really busy.
Then you don't have to get deepon yourself.
You don't have the time to askthe hard questions, and so I
would like listeners, if you'rewilling to do this alongside us,
to take a moment today to justask yourself why do I matter?
Speaker 4 (32:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
And not because you are wearing all of the hats and
spinning all of the plates, butbecause you are here for a
reason.
And I bet if you get reallyquiet with yourself and you
don't allow yourself to getdistracted by all the external
things, that answer is going tobe a lot clearer and the path of
(33:17):
what you need to do is going tobe clearer.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
The solitude.
To find the answer in the quietspace is a gift and a skill
definitely to hone, and I findthat in the solitude there's
also a lot of solidarity withother people around you.
And that's really what I'm mostexcited about is to start
putting a voice out there tonormalize parenting and what
(33:41):
we're currently strugglingagainst and how we can work
together to really understand,first and foremost as parents,
why do you matter, as a humanbeing, why do you matter?
And then how do we foster thatin kids?
Because it's one thing to healourselves, but then if we're on
(34:03):
our own healing journey, but themessages we keep sending our
kids, consciously orsubconsciously, is that still of
performative, high achievementbased run, run, run, be overly
involved in all the things?
They see through it.
They absolutely see through it,but you wanted to come back to
(34:27):
worth and achievement.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Nope, you're good, keep going.
I like this.
Speaker 4 (34:33):
No.
Well, there was a woman yearsago who said to me I get more
things done by 8 AM than mostpeople do in a week.
And I looked at her and said Ihope you can unpack that,
because I just thought I don'twant that and that's I get it,
but that's going to catch up toyou one way or another.
(34:54):
If looking at your resume iswhat defines your worth, then
I'm probably a big zero, becausewhen you look at the CEOs out
there and all these statustitles that we put out there,
(35:16):
we've done such great work aswomen and as mothers to really
sink into this idea of whatdefines success for me and what
are my values as a family.
And maybe you haven't taken thetime, but I know you know those
two questions, listeners.
I know you have heard it here alot, I know you've heard and
(35:36):
seen it elsewhere, but at theend of the day, it's back to
April's point mattering how youdefine, how you matter.
It has nothing to do about theexternal things, nothing.
And until you get that, untilwe get that as parents, our kids
won't get that, because allthey're going to see is all the
(35:58):
things.
And I think there's a fine linebecause I was talking, talking
with someone this morning and Isaid you can absolutely, like my
son, can absolutely be proud ofhis achievements.
That's not what we're talkingabout here.
We're talking about having theachievement define you Because,
ultimately, who are you thenwithout the achievement?
(36:19):
That's what the conversationcomes down to and that's where
things can get really murky withAdolescents and high school age
kids.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Yeah, it's you know.
I think it's a constantpractice and I think you know,
when I think through what thefirst step is.
I think it really is gettingquiet with ourselves and asking
what exactly do we want for ourlife to feel like?
Speaker 4 (36:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
What are our values, what it will get in clear, I
think, on what kind of life youwant to live and then also how
you want to role model that foryour children We'll show you the
path on what steps to take,whether that's maybe Eliminating
some things, maybe that'schanging the conversation in
(37:14):
your household and with yourfamily, or maybe that's just
really guarding yourself on yourown personal thoughts and a
willingness to say yes toeverything.
Yeah, I Think that's probablythe first step.
What do you think, lisa?
Speaker 4 (37:29):
Yeah, I absolutely agree.
I absolutely agree.
So you know we talk a lot aboutvalues.
You know, going back to that,and that is inherent to our
elevate program, it's a, it's akey concept that we have to
identify first.
But if you haven't done that asa family unit, I would start
with yourself what are your ownvalues?
(37:50):
Because we guarantee that ifyou can identify those,
decisions become a lot easier.
Saying no becomes a lot easier.
No, I'm not gonna buy that bagof junk food because I'm a
healthy person.
Or I'm only gonna buy one bagof junk food in that 20, you
know you find the balance foryou.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Yeah, I definitely would agree to start where you
said yeah, and if listeners arecurious about the elevate
program, we have a link to thatin the show notes as well.
Yeah, absolutely kicking off injust a couple weeks.
Pretty excited about that one.
Speaker 4 (38:25):
Yeah, that's super exciting.
But you know, as parents, Iwould really love to elevate
this conversation of achievementtoxicity because I know that
you're feeling it, I you know.
It's wild to me how I can havea conversation with a middle
school Parents and they're likeoh, they're already burned out
on soccer.
And I'm like, well, I guessthat makes sense.
They've been doing it for sixyears because you can start now
(38:48):
as a first grader by us.
I mean, you can start earlierthan that, but through the
school system.
And I thought, how wild if I hada six-year career path back
when we were young, to yourpoint, you made earlier apes,
I'd be in high school.
That that in and of itself istelling.
And again, expose your kidsfine, to things that they want
(39:10):
to know about and learn about,but I think do so in a way that
works for the family structureand Supports the values for sure
.
So I'm figuring it out too.
I'm catching myself all thetime with, oh, oh, he can run
faster, for example, incross-country, and then equally
like, no, he's winning in hisown way, getting his needs met,
(39:32):
it's a practice, it's not abouta college resume when he's a
sixth grader.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Well, as you can hear , listeners, we are practicing
right alongside you and we areso grateful that you show up
with us every week as we aregrowing, and Would love to
challenge you to grow alongsideus.
Any last thoughts, lisa?
Speaker 4 (39:57):
Just hang in there, parents, and definitely stay
connected with us.
If you haven't already joinedthe email list, please do so,
because we send additional anddifferent information there to
you and here's, here's, to yourParenting journey.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
All right, on that note, it is closing time.
Cheers to good karma.
Speaker 5 (40:18):
Thank you for listening to this entire podcast
.
I hope this episode has leftyou feeling curious and inspired
.
This podcast is intended tocreate expansion in your life
through unique stories andshared experiences, and if you
enjoy today's episode, I have arequest.
I'd like to ask you to sharethis podcast with your friends
and family.
(40:39):
I bet they'd enjoy it just asmuch as you have.
And, if you found value, pleaseshare this on your social media
outlets.
That is good karma in action,my friends.
All right, it is now closingtime.
Cheers to good karma and thepower to choose joy.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
If you like this, tell your friends.
Speaker 5 (41:01):
Stay tuned for the end because we have outtakes and
now?
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Now for the outtakes, and now for the outtakes hold
on.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
I'm totally using this as outtake.
Go for it, oh.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
That was fun, I got tongue-tied.
Hey, you've been listening.
Test Test one, two, three, four.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Okay, now say hey, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
Hey, welcome to the podcast.
You're really great.
Everyone, everyone that'slistening to this podcast, even
if they don't even hear the rest, even if they only can listen
to a Part of it because of ascreaming baby You're all really
awesome.
Speaker 5 (41:45):
Yeah, thanks for listening.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
Bye over now.
Thanks for listening.
Welcome to the Paradigm you podcast.
How do you know that you matter?
You're listening to theParadigm you podcast and on this
week's episode, my co-host,lisa Sarnowski, and I unpacked
that exact question.
We untangled the concept ofself-worth from achievement and
recognized that it's not aboutthe achievement, but it's truly
(00:23):
about the journey.
Listen in.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
You're listening to the Paradigm you podcast.
You're about to starttransforming your life by
growing your mind and expandingyour paradigms.
Here we'll cover real-lifetopics, just like the stuff
you'd share with a good friend.
This podcast will serve uptopics that weigh on our hearts
and keep us up at night, whetherit's navigating parenthood and
becoming an adult, orway-finding person of
development, marriage and money.
You, my friend, are in theright place.
(00:47):
I'm glad you're here.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
All right, well, welcome to the Paradigm you
podcast.
It's another week and I am herewith the lovely co-host, lisa
Sarnowski, and my name is AprilMarluski-Hadzinski, and together
we are pretty excited to talkabout this topic and I'm going
to throw it right over to Lisa,because this topic came out of
something she witnessed and itjust sent us on a huge, awesome
(01:11):
conversation and we want toinvite you to be part of it.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
Thank you, april.
It's so great to be back herewith you and talking about
achievement toxicity as parents.
This is a new passionate topicof mine, and let me tell you
where it started.
So my son joined Cross Countrythis year, so it's first time
Cross Country and that kid Iused to joke.
(01:35):
He never learned how to walk,he learned to run.
So I was really excited to seehow well he would do, and it
turns out he's actually kind ofslow.
And what was interesting aboutthat process was for me and my
inside game as a parent,thinking through oh my goodness,
(01:56):
why is he so slow?
But equally observing whathappened afterwards.
Because afterwards he told methat there was a pack of girls
from his team cheering him onbut saying, come on, slow Pokes.
And then there was someone inthe crowd that said, oof, I'm
(02:16):
going to have to go running withhim, as if to imply.
And that really caught me offguard because it made me more
aware of my own thoughts.
Because as I reflected on therace, every time I looked at him
he had the biggest smile on hisface.
He was so happy to just beparticipating, to run alongside
(02:37):
a buddy, and isn't that enough?
And so I was going to postsomething on Facebook and then I
found this article by chanceand it talks about achievement
toxicity with kids, and that'swhat I want to talk to you about
today.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
You know, when Lisa brought this up, I loved this
concept because it's well.
Quite frankly, it put a lump inmy throat because this is
something that I've talked withLisa about for a really long
time, because and actually I'veprobably shared on some of the
episodes as well this is astruggle that I've had
personally, just wanting toconstantly achieve the next
(03:21):
thing, achieve the next thingand placing value on the
achievement instead of thejourney.
And it was interesting whenLisa, when you brought this up,
I was like, oh, I can totallyrelate.
So it was actually quite funnythat you said hey, I want to
talk about this topic becauseI'm like yes, I am a recovering
overdoer.
(03:41):
Yes, you are.
I don't know if I'm recovering,I'm working through it.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
It is a work in progress for you for sure.
Well, what really stood out tome is when I read this article.
First of all, I we can linkthis, maybe in the show notes
apes for everybody but what Iwant.
What really stood out to me is,in a little bit of context here
, back when I worked in highereducation and it was, I think,
(04:09):
my second job in higher ed I wasworking over at UW Milwaukee.
There was a professionaldevelopment opportunity over in
Madison with a guy named TimWise.
At the time he was pretty new.
Now he's a very, verywell-known anti-racism speaker
and it wasn't positioned asanti-racism back then because
that wasn't the vernacular.
(04:30):
However, when I went to this,this professional development
opportunity, he was speakingabout drug use and who abuses
them the most.
And typically, when you saythat, an image comes to mind and
it's usually not the image of asuburban white child, however
(04:53):
disproportionately so that's thedemographic that's misusing
drugs.
So already back then, I hadthis idea of what we're visually
told and what some of ourassumptions are aren't
necessarily accurate.
So when I read this statisticon achievement toxicity, it
really floored me.
Back in 2018, there was a reportdone by what is called the
(05:16):
Robert Wood Johnson Foundation,which is about public health and
policy, and they named the topfour environmental conditions
that negatively impactadolescent wellness.
Now, we've known for a whilenow.
Anyone that's kind of dabbledinto this world or listened in
on adverse effects for parentingwill know that they've studied
(05:40):
poverty, trauma, discrimination,those huge topics.
We've known that for decades,but the new one that has popped
up is this quote-unquoteexcessive pressure to excel.
So, according to the report, afamily or school environment
characterized by extremepressure to succeed or outdo
(06:02):
everyone else, often, but notexclusively, occurring in
especially affluent communities,can affect youth in
significantly, in significantways, including causing high
levels of stress, anxiety,alcohol, drug use and dependence
In some instances.
This led me to a book where itreally does talk of it.
(06:26):
It can lead even to childsuicide.
And I started thinking well,april, right, you're my bestie,
I get that.
Like you are an avid doer.
We've talked about that.
I think you've shared with thelisteners on a lot of podcasts.
Some of that is a conditionedresponse, right, a habitual
response.
At this point, would you saythat, yeah, definitely, yeah,
(06:50):
I've had the other effect.
I'm on the other side of thecoin, growing up for me, I was.
I have vivid memories of beingbored a whole lot and I joke
that out of boredom came myobsessive passion for organizing
, because I just rememberorganizing and reorganizing
things.
But as families we didn't goand do things on weekends, we
(07:12):
just kind of hung out.
So I started wondering wheredid my parental drive come for
this achievement?
Because it wasn't inherent tome.
Yes, I can be competitive, butI'm not competitive for
competitive sake.
Where did I get wrapped up inthis idea of like being with the
(07:33):
Joneses or that my kids gradesneed to be a certain way, or I
would just have those thoughtsand that's been really
interesting for me to unpack andjust really lean into and learn
more about and look around andgo.
What are we doing?
Why am I in February signing mykids up for camps in the summer
(07:54):
?
What is that?
And you know it's mind blowingto me and the pressure that not
only puts on the familystructure and a lot of times
those sort of activities getplanned by the mothers but also
what kind of inherent pressureis that telling our kids?
And the biggest takeaway for meis that in reading this book
(08:20):
that I will share the title toin a second, let me just pull it
up here.
It's called Never Enough whenAchievement Culture Becomes
Toxic and what we Can Do Aboutit, and this is an award-winning
journalist called JenniferWallace.
It's an extraordinary book.
I'm almost all the way throughit, but what she talks about is
(08:40):
that kids inherently walk away,identifying that their
achievement or performance iswhat makes them worthy.
They are only worthy based ontheir achievement, based on
their performance, and that, tome, was a big message.
(09:02):
I wanna make sure that our kidsknow they're worthy because
they're here and anyway, I havea lot to say on all of this, but
I'm curious what's standing outto you as a parent and someone
who's equally navigating her ownjourney through overachievement
?
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Oh, lees, you're making me wanna cry.
I can relate so deeply, beingsomebody who, growing up, was
that overachieving person I'veshared with you.
I think I was in every clubavailable to me at one point in
my high school career and, quitefrankly, probably not enjoying
(09:47):
any of them, but feeling like Ineeded to be part of all of
these things because I needed to.
Of course I gotta try that, andI think it started, though,
with curiosity I wanna checkthese out, like that sounds
interesting.
Ooh, that sounds interesting.
But then it turned into a let'sdo that, let's do this, let's
(10:08):
try these things.
And now, as a parent, I amwrestling with that as a habit
so deep it's, so deeplyingrained in me.
And my husband so, tony, he'sthe opposite.
He's much like you, did notgrow up like that and cannot
even wrap his mind around theidea of our children being
(10:28):
involved in a bajillion things.
Fun fact my kids just told methis weekend that bajillion is
not an actual one.
I have not confirmed that, butapparently I should stop using
that one.
But we wrestle with this in ourhome all the time.
When my kids were younger, I didfeel that pressure to engage
(10:50):
them in a lot of differentactivities, because I had heard
from parents that were a coupleof steps ahead of me hey, if you
don't get your kids involved insome of these things, they
won't actually get toparticipate.
By the time that, quite frankly, I probably started
participating in these things,yeah, and recognizing the
pressure that I felt it.
(11:12):
And then, all of a sudden, theconversations that happened in
our home of what are our values,what is okay with us and what
are we willing to commit to, andhow do we want to teach our
kids their own choices, but alsorole model, a lot of different
things with regards toinvolvement and activities,
(11:38):
education, all sorts of things,lees, but what we have decided
is we wanna teach our kids howto be engaged in community and
how to build relationships andhow to try things that they may
not necessarily try, and if theylike it, we support it.
However, we have someboundaries, and I'm guessing you
(11:59):
do too.
I'd be interested to hear whatyou think but we have a boundary
in our home that our kids can'tparticipate in more than one
thing at a time, with the caveatthat they have to do something
that I choose too.
So right now, for example, myyoungest has to finish swimming
lessons because I feel likethat's a safety piece for me.
My older kids have already donethat, and so my older kids, I'm
(12:22):
like, all right now I want youguys to try something a little
bit more creative that you mightnot necessarily try on your own
.
So they're both trying pianoright now and, interestingly,
they both are digging it.
That's awesome.
They wouldn't have tried thaton their own.
Then, beyond that, I encouragethem to be part of something, to
build a relationship and for,ideally, just to figure out what
(12:46):
they actually like.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Yeah, you know there's a I love all of that.
There's definitely seasons withparenting, right, Cause at a
particular age you're like youjust want to expose them to
different things and, for betteror worse, as parents nowadays
we have access to so manyopportunities, especially when
you drill down into what thisbook and these statistics are
(13:09):
referring to.
They're talking about the top25 to 20% of earners which,
according to the book,statistically, regardless of
family size, is earning 130,000or above.
So we have access to thingsthere's, especially when you
live close or nearby to a city.
In a city, there's museumseverywhere.
(13:30):
There's universities everywhere.
With the advent of onlinelearning opportunities,
depending on how you choose toengage that with your kids,
nowadays there's kind of anendless supply.
So, on the one hand, exposureis easier to find.
On the other hand, itdelineates the opportunity to
(13:50):
create those communities right,Because now you're just with
whomever you're with in thosepockets, unless you facilitate
getting a group of kids together.
But there's also that season oflife where the kids starts to
find what they really enjoy andthen you want to foster that as
well as continue to expose themto other things that they're not
(14:12):
learning in the classroom, andthis is an equal passion of mine
is the school systems can onlyteach so much.
And as parents, I feel like andit took me a long while to get
here, April can test to it butas parents, it's ultimately our
responsibility to fill the gapsof education that we want them
to learn, and that's beyond justlife skills.
(14:34):
But I can tell you right now mykid's school is never gonna
have a robotics class, right, soI need to find that elsewhere.
And for a while, as I reflectback and after I read this
article and now book, I wasthinking man, have I been
pushing my kids too much?
Have I been getting them waytoo involved?
(14:56):
Have I become part of thatprocess, that achievement
toxicity that's all over in ourneighborhoods.
It's just rampant to be in moreactivities and posted on social
to make sure all the parentssee the amazing basketball camp
that you were just at, orwhatever.
And then I realized I may havebeen at one point, but now I'm
(15:20):
really focused and intentionalabout figuring out who this
unique individual is andunearthing what they're
passionate about and findingways to foster that outside of
possibly just the schoolstructure, because we can and
there's a dance of not feelingguilty about having access to
(15:41):
allow my kids theseopportunities.
But there's also, to your point,the time and reflection needed
to come back to values, where Iwant you to just be bored.
You know I want you to beuncomfortable.
My son especially does not likebeing bored, so I forced those
opportunities on him and it'sinteresting to navigate those
(16:04):
conversations alongside him.
He can read tens of thousandsof pages a year, so I have no
concerns there.
Academics come easy.
Social skills are, you know,still developing for him.
But the excessive need to builda resume already when you're in
(16:24):
middle school, that's a lot ofwhat the book is talking about.
And it's fascinating to me howI'm not sure if the listeners
both know our higher edbackground they probably know
more about yours, but April andI both have extensive
professional services, studentaffairs in our background.
So higher education is a bigvalue for us and I'm not going
(16:48):
to speak for April, but for mein this day and age to come out
and say I don't know if my kidsare going to college.
That's a big deal for me to say, Not because I don't believe in
higher education, but because Ibelieve it has a place and it
doesn't necessarily mean everykid needs to, and the research
in this book for anyone witholder kids, especially those in
(17:09):
high school, applying tocolleges.
You want to read this bookbecause we don't get a kickback
on this book or anything.
I just think it's that valuablefor parents nowadays to know
they're not alone, to know whattheir kids are honestly
struggling with and to restassured that, regardless of
where they go to college, itdoesn't have to be Ivy League
(17:30):
for them to have the financialsuccess if that's what's really
pushing people today.
So the statistics in the bookare fascinating and it's a solid
reminder as parents that loveshowing your kid how to live
their values and really focusingon mental health and their
(17:52):
overall health is really what'sgoing to catapult them forward.
April.
65% of the jobs that are goingto be available for our kids
don't even exist in our worldtoday.
They don't even exist, and Ikeep telling my son that he's a
big numbers guy as a way to say.
You don't have to pick yourprofession now.
You don't have to know that you, if you do great and if it's a
(18:16):
particular industry where youneed college, absolutely let's
figure that out for you.
But equally, there's so manyopportunities available in our
world today that patting yourresume, constantly having to do,
do, do, do, isn't going to helpour kids at all.
And there's a story in the bookabout a football team.
(18:38):
This is a high school footballteam and, to their credit, they
rallied together to pitchliterally to their head coach.
I believe they wrote it out Imight be getting some of those
details wrong, but they pitchedto their coach that they wanted
one day off a week, and you knowwhat they wanted to do in their
(18:59):
one day off a week.
And this is high school kidsone day off a week so they could
sleep, catch up on homework andspend time with their family.
Holy cow, that that isincredible.
Now, what an amazing team thatwas able to come together and
say this isn't okay.
(19:19):
Practicing doing all the thingsseven days a week is way too
much.
And why have we let that happenas parents?
Why are we saying that this isthe only way to success is to
burn yourself out.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
It's a competitive space.
It really is.
I think that's part of it.
I think oftentimes, as parents,I mean, we've talked with, with
people who've come to us andshared their personal stories
and they said, you know, I lookoutward and I see my, my kids,
opportunities and I hear whateverybody else is doing and I
feel like gosh, I need to getthem involved in more, more and
(19:58):
more.
And at no point in some ofthose conversations are we
hearing how they're pivoting theconversation to why the child
matters.
Yes, but here's the other piece,lisa.
Like we can get on the soapboxright Of, like parenting and
what we think people should bedoing and what we think we
(20:19):
should be doing.
Yeah, and it actually has tostart with us.
Yeah, we have to make sure thatwe understand and we truly
believe to our core that wematter 100%, and then that, and
we're role modeling that, yeah,we're showing our, our children
and these little eyes who arewatching us, hey, I matter, no
(20:42):
matter what I'm involved in, Imatter and I'm here, I'm on this
planet at this moment in timefor a reason Amen.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
Absolutely.
I love that and that's you knowI'm.
I'm having a hard time talkingbecause that that is exactly
that is the core of this is, asparents, we have to heal first,
whatever that means for us andknowing we matter.
That was that one question thatbrought me to my knees and made
(21:13):
me sob.
I'll never forget that moment,and mattering is really the way
forward and making sure our kidsknow that unconditionally.
Hey, the, the score you get onyour assessment, that's great,
that's the number, but you'renot defined by the number.
I'll love you anyway.
(21:34):
And so I think it's us equallylearning that for our own self,
reminding ourselves that, hey,it's not about the fact that we
I don't know that we ran a milein two minutes.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Our house is totally clean.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
Yes, our house is clean, or we have the biggest
house on the block, or you know,whatever that is.
I think that's important.
And then I think it's importantthat we are aware of how we
engage our kids.
If the first thing we do afterschool when we see our kids is
ask them how their test went, itcould be a very innocuous, very
(22:15):
simple question, but it'sreaffirming to them that
whatever they do, however theyperform, could be linked to
their worth.
And so just greeting them hey,how's it going?
And bringing that up laterbecause we're parents, of course
we wanna put a pulse on it andsadly, these kids don't
necessarily just share all thenitty-gritty details we wanna
(22:37):
learn.
But I think it's equally beingaware of those moments and
understanding that your worth isnot tied to the number.
We talk about that in femalediet culture all the time.
Right, step on the scale, dowhat you need to do to track
data, but let's not make itpersonal and the number doesn't
(22:57):
reflect your worth.
So let's start doing that withour kids, with all the
assessments they're doing andall the tests they're doing.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
And as a parent oh, go ahead.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
Yeah, well, I was just gonna say my love language
is words of affirmation, so ifI'm not saying it, it doesn't
connect with my brain as much.
And I know that my son is aswell, which is why I'm a big.
We're big verbal communicatorsin the family.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
to demonstrate that At least what I was gonna say
was thinking through what ourvalues are, ourselves and our
parents, communicating that andeven having that time to
actually have a conversationwith our children to make sure
that they're in line with thosevalues, and then encouraging
(23:42):
them.
Hey, you know what?
Be creative, be criticalthinkers, ask questions,
challenge us on these values,but let's collectively decide
what those values are, becausethen that creates the boundaries
to allow us to say is it a hellyes, or is it a hell no,
whatever, whether it's academicsor it's activities, involvement
(24:04):
of some sort or spending eventoo much time.
You know, I don't remember if Ishared this, but two weekends
ago I was harvesting honey.
Did I share this last week?
Speaker 4 (24:15):
Oh, yes, yeah, I don't know if it was on the
podcast.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
So okay, so well for listeners.
I'm a beekeeper love, love,honey bees.
They're so fascinating to me.
Harvesting honey is a huge painin my butt, not my favorite
thing to do, and what I realizedin that process because I had a
whole weekend to really reflecton that was why am I doing this
?
Is it bringing me joy?
(24:40):
And if there's a piece of itthat's not bringing me joy, what
am I not willing to continue on?
What do I need to mayberecalibrate or sift through?
And it happened again actuallythis weekend I took the kids
apple picking and all of asudden, our whole weekend was
hijacked by prepping and doingall of the fall things that we
(25:02):
like to do.
And halfway through I asked thekids.
I said you guys, do we evenenjoy this, or are we doing this
just because this is somethingwe've done every year?
And it was actually reallyinteresting to hear each of
their perspectives and here, dothey enjoy it, or do they just
be like, oh well, my mom didthis?
So then my mom drags us to thisand has done this since we were
(25:25):
kids, so I should like to dothis.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
And when I got really deep.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
I started asking myself wait a sec.
Did my parents used to take meto go do these things?
Because, quite frankly, I'm nota baker.
I don't like baking.
My applesauce is disgusting Idon't even like applesauce and,
honestly, we just really like todehydrate them all, so it's not
even driven by that.
(25:52):
So what is the value piece?
So we had a great conversationas a family over the weekend of
what are the values and why arewe choosing these activities
Because, quite frankly, we allhave the same amount of time.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
And what we do with that time and how we decide to
use that time is going to be areflection of our environment.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
The values talk is a big one.
It's one I haven't fosteredintentionally enough with my
kids.
I'm curious how the listeners,how you, foster those
conversations.
I know that it was just theautumn equinox this past
Saturday and talking about howfar we've come this year and,
equally, where we want to go.
(26:37):
I'll be upfront and say that Istarted crying because I want to
be more intentional with ourtime.
On the one hand, by the timeour week is done, my kids are
tired and I want to honor that,and so living your values
equally means slowing down andbeing okay and finding the
(26:58):
parents that are willing to havethese conversations with,
because they exist.
There's some other thingshappening at my school right now
, for example, and it's reallyfascinating how everyone has
made an interpretation abouteveryone else when in reality,
there's pockets of people thatthink similarly and just need to
find each other.
And so what I've been findingon my parenting journey is there
(27:22):
was a woman at the soccer gamesStella Header for Soccer match
on Saturday and and quick sidenote afterwards someone asked
did you win?
And she goes I won because Ihad fun and I was like yay.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
That's a parenting win.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
She goes that's what my mother always says and I'm
like, oh gosh, but yeah, it wasa proud moment.
But as we were talking, it wasinteresting because we clearly
parent very similar and it'sapparent how that runs
counterculture that it's OK tohave the small house, it's OK to
have the simple life, it's OKto have downtime.
(28:05):
Yesterday my son just wanted towatch a Harry Potter movie with
me and, as much as I need to bemindful of screen time, I
thought this is great.
Let's just cuddle on the couchand chill out, because clearly
he needed it too.
So, learning how to live yourvalues doesn't necessarily mean
always doing things and I think,or promoting that you did it
(28:31):
with social media brings thisother layer of people need to
know.
Or and I think those are theconversations with parents that
I just want to continue to havethat hey, if your kid is
involved in something,absolutely you and, as the
parent, get to support them andbe in the best version of what
they need that to be.
But I know very clearly nowthat my son meets cross country
(28:53):
to be a social time and that isenough because that's what he
needs, whereas his French horntime he takes seriously and it
doesn't need to be a social.
I don't know how you talk andplay French horn at the same
time.
I think if ever there wassomeone who could figure that
out, he could but point taken.
So I think it's equally, asparents, as much as we need to
(29:15):
heal and have those values,conversation and be more
intentional, to just keepsharing with other people.
Because I can tell you rightnow in April, you're nodding
your head for the listeners.
We're having conversation afterconversation and everyone keeps
saying why are we still tryingto keep up with the Joneses?
What does it even matter?
(29:36):
And I was at a women's wellnessretreat yesterday and the whole
group of women basically walkedaway going, if I don't change,
after COVID.
That's on me Like after thatentire time we lived a different
life, we wanted to be adifferent way, and now it's
ultimately up to me.
And it was interesting becauseone woman actually said I just
(29:59):
have to learn how to beuncomfortable, because going
against the grain isn't alwayseasy.
But I think there's so manymore parents out there, so many
more moms out there like us, andso I'm just here to advocate
for you, to say it's OK to notpad your kid's resume starting
in middle school so they get anhonor roll in high school, or so
(30:22):
their high school resume is soamazing they get into an Ivy
League school that maybe youwent to.
It's OK to let them find theirown path and they will be
extraordinary, as long as youallow them to be.
And I'm living it with you andit's very uncomfortable, like I
said, that cross-country meet Icould just hear it in my brain
why is he running faster?
(30:43):
Where is he already?
And then he comes around thiscorner with the biggest grin I
think I've ever seen on thatkid's mug and I thought I don't
even know what I'm worried about.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
That's pretty awesome .
And to circle this back, leis,I think that it really does come
down to how we're role modeling, yeah, how we're the stories
that we're telling ourselves,what we're embracing as far as
why we matter, and I think, justthe role modeling in realizing
(31:17):
we're not going to be everything.
I think you actually you taughtme this a long time ago You're
like I can't do it all.
Actually, that's not how yousaid it, but I feel like you had
said something.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
It sounds like me.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
At one point.
We're like I can't do all ofthose things at once.
I say those same things in myhousehold and I say that
oftentimes to myself and I'mworking on embracing that Like
OK, what's in line with myvalues, and recognizing I can't
do all of the things.
It's unruly, simplistic.
A real quick side note, butthen I do think that I want to
(31:52):
come back to talking about theself-worth piece a little bit.
More is.
For years I've watched peopleoverachieve and, as somebody who
a lot of people confide in forboth of us and, as you'd
mentioned, we both have a lot ofexperience working in higher ed
(32:12):
I used to have a lot of collegestudents in my office on a
regular basis processing whythey weren't enjoying their
experience and what I realizedwas there's a culture that numbs
by being over just beingovercommitted, yes, and I think
(32:34):
by being really busy.
Then you don't have to get deepon yourself.
You don't have the time to askthe hard questions, and so I
would like listeners, if you'rewilling to do this alongside us,
to take a moment today to justask yourself why do I matter?
Speaker 4 (32:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
And not because you are wearing all of the hats and
spinning all of the plates, butbecause you are here for a
reason.
And I bet if you get reallyquiet with yourself and you
don't allow yourself to getdistracted by all the external
things, that answer is going tobe a lot clearer and the path of
(33:17):
what you need to do is going tobe clearer.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
The solitude.
To find the answer in the quietspace is a gift and a skill
definitely to hone, and I findthat in the solitude there's
also a lot of solidarity withother people around you.
And that's really what I'm mostexcited about is to start
putting a voice out there tonormalize parenting and what
(33:41):
we're currently strugglingagainst and how we can work
together to really understand,first and foremost as parents,
why do you matter, as a humanbeing, why do you matter?
And then how do we foster thatin kids?
Because it's one thing to healourselves, but then if we're on
(34:03):
our own healing journey, but themessages we keep sending our
kids, consciously orsubconsciously, is that still of
performative, high achievementbased run, run, run, be overly
involved in all the things?
They see through it.
They absolutely see through it,but you wanted to come back to
(34:27):
worth and achievement.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Nope, you're good, keep going.
I like this.
Speaker 4 (34:33):
No.
Well, there was a woman yearsago who said to me I get more
things done by 8 AM than mostpeople do in a week.
And I looked at her and said Ihope you can unpack that,
because I just thought I don'twant that and that's I get it,
but that's going to catch up toyou one way or another.
(34:54):
If looking at your resume iswhat defines your worth, then
I'm probably a big zero, becausewhen you look at the CEOs out
there and all these statustitles that we put out there,
(35:16):
we've done such great work aswomen and as mothers to really
sink into this idea of whatdefines success for me and what
are my values as a family.
And maybe you haven't taken thetime, but I know you know those
two questions, listeners.
I know you have heard it here alot, I know you've heard and
(35:36):
seen it elsewhere, but at theend of the day, it's back to
April's point mattering how youdefine, how you matter.
It has nothing to do about theexternal things, nothing.
And until you get that, untilwe get that as parents, our kids
won't get that, because allthey're going to see is all the
(35:58):
things.
And I think there's a fine linebecause I was talking, talking
with someone this morning and Isaid you can absolutely, like my
son, can absolutely be proud ofhis achievements.
That's not what we're talkingabout here.
We're talking about having theachievement define you Because,
ultimately, who are you thenwithout the achievement?
(36:19):
That's what the conversationcomes down to and that's where
things can get really murky withAdolescents and high school age
kids.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Yeah, it's you know.
I think it's a constantpractice and I think you know,
when I think through what thefirst step is.
I think it really is gettingquiet with ourselves and asking
what exactly do we want for ourlife to feel like?
Speaker 4 (36:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
What are our values, what it will get in clear, I
think, on what kind of life youwant to live and then also how
you want to role model that foryour children We'll show you the
path on what steps to take,whether that's maybe Eliminating
some things, maybe that'schanging the conversation in
(37:14):
your household and with yourfamily, or maybe that's just
really guarding yourself on yourown personal thoughts and a
willingness to say yes toeverything.
Yeah, I Think that's probablythe first step.
What do you think, lisa?
Speaker 4 (37:29):
Yeah, I absolutely agree.
I absolutely agree.
So you know we talk a lot aboutvalues.
You know, going back to that,and that is inherent to our
elevate program, it's a, it's akey concept that we have to
identify first.
But if you haven't done that asa family unit, I would start
with yourself what are your ownvalues?
(37:50):
Because we guarantee that ifyou can identify those,
decisions become a lot easier.
Saying no becomes a lot easier.
No, I'm not gonna buy that bagof junk food because I'm a
healthy person.
Or I'm only gonna buy one bagof junk food in that 20, you
know you find the balance foryou.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Yeah, I definitely would agree to start where you
said yeah, and if listeners arecurious about the elevate
program, we have a link to thatin the show notes as well.
Yeah, absolutely kicking off injust a couple weeks.
Pretty excited about that one.
Speaker 4 (38:25):
Yeah, that's super exciting.
But you know, as parents, Iwould really love to elevate
this conversation of achievementtoxicity because I know that
you're feeling it, I you know.
It's wild to me how I can havea conversation with a middle
school Parents and they're likeoh, they're already burned out
on soccer.
And I'm like, well, I guessthat makes sense.
They've been doing it for sixyears because you can start now
(38:48):
as a first grader by us.
I mean, you can start earlierthan that, but through the
school system.
And I thought, how wild if I hada six-year career path back
when we were young, to yourpoint, you made earlier apes,
I'd be in high school.
That that in and of itself istelling.
And again, expose your kidsfine, to things that they want
(39:10):
to know about and learn about,but I think do so in a way that
works for the family structureand Supports the values for sure
.
So I'm figuring it out too.
I'm catching myself all thetime with, oh, oh, he can run
faster, for example, incross-country, and then equally
like, no, he's winning in hisown way, getting his needs met,
(39:32):
it's a practice, it's not abouta college resume when he's a
sixth grader.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Well, as you can hear , listeners, we are practicing
right alongside you and we areso grateful that you show up
with us every week as we aregrowing, and Would love to
challenge you to grow alongsideus.
Any last thoughts, lisa?
Speaker 4 (39:57):
Just hang in there, parents, and definitely stay
connected with us.
If you haven't already joinedthe email list, please do so,
because we send additional anddifferent information there to
you and here's, here's, to yourParenting journey.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
All right, on that note, it is closing time.
Cheers to good karma.
Speaker 5 (40:18):
Thank you for listening to this entire podcast
.
I hope this episode has leftyou feeling curious and inspired
.
This podcast is intended tocreate expansion in your life
through unique stories andshared experiences, and if you
enjoy today's episode, I have arequest.
I'd like to ask you to sharethis podcast with your friends
and family.
(40:39):
I bet they'd enjoy it just asmuch as you have.
And, if you found value, pleaseshare this on your social media
outlets.
That is good karma in action,my friends.
All right, it is now closingtime.
Cheers to good karma and thepower to choose joy.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
If you like this, tell your friends.
Speaker 5 (41:01):
Stay tuned for the end because we have outtakes and
now?
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Now for the outtakes, and now for the outtakes hold
on.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
I'm totally using this as outtake.
Go for it, oh.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
That was fun, I got tongue-tied.
Hey, you've been listening.
Test Test one, two, three, four.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Okay, now say hey, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
Hey, welcome to the podcast.
You're really great.
Everyone, everyone that'slistening to this podcast, even
if they don't even hear the rest, even if they only can listen
to a Part of it because of ascreaming baby You're all really
awesome.
Speaker 5 (41:45):
Yeah, thanks for listening.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
Bye over now.
Thanks for listening.
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