March 28, 2024 • 41 mins
Drea leads the episode to talk about making pattern designs in terms of when it's inspiration or when it's blatant theft. Meg starts the discussion with what you might be able or not be able to copyright, considering stitches can be thousands of years old. Jess makes an analogy comparing piano keys & notes with stitches & designs. Tina makes comparisons and thoughts based on her own pattern designs, like the Seed Dot Beanie, how she put a copyright on her patterns as a copyright of the arrangement of the pattern itself, rather than the stitches themselves. Jess and Tina discuss the idea of direct, word for word copying of the pattern versus coincidentally put together similar stitches to create a design. It definitely gets murky, and the topic is controversial; join the cast for this topic and then be sure to voice your opinion!
Find out more about the podcast as well as our cast Meg, Drea, Tina, and Jess at our website pardonmystash.com. Leave us a comment on your thoughts on our episode blog posts, or through our social media accounts!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I'm Drea. I'm Meg. I'm Tina. And I'm Jess. And this is Part in My Stash.
(00:12):
Welcome to Part in My Stash, a podcast about knitting within the fiber arts and how awesome it is.
Before we get into today's topic, let's check out what we're working on this week. Jess?
Well, I was working on the vest and then I got mad at the pattern. So now I am working on
the wrap, which is between the dragon and his wrap. And it's a color work and I love it.
(00:37):
That's so bright.
Right? Isn't it awesome?
What is that blue?
This blue is Thunderwave.
Is it?
Yeah, it's Thunderwave from Critical Hit Dies and Copper Dragon from Critical Hit Dies.
And they're both on Paladin, which is like, I haven't worked with a worsted weight yarn in
forever, but it's not so bad. I did go down a needle size because working with nines was like,
(01:00):
Awful.
No, eights is okay.
Broomsticks?
You know, it doesn't look like that big of a difference, but it feels like that.
I don't like knitting worsted in nines. It just feels too much.
I also felt like it would give a little too much. Like this is coming out really nice where I'm at.
Can I touch it? It looks squishy.
(01:20):
It is super squishy. You may touch it.
And I like this one. It's a nice color work. For the record, it is squishy.
It's super squishy, right?
But yeah, so I'm excited about this one. I am doing a little bit of a modification on the middle
of the pattern because I wanted the dragon's horns to be longer, so I've tested it because I
(01:40):
thought it just looked too flat. So I changed it a little bit, but I haven't gotten that far yet.
So we'll see how that works out. But that is what I am working on now and it's lots of fun.
And then at the end, I get to stick it.
So we're going to have fun with that too. Oh Lord.
Lots of fun stuff. This is also part of my matchy make along with Meg now because we changed.
(02:03):
I forgot. I actually did Rose on mine.
I'm almost turning the hem on it. I'm almost turning the hem.
It's just taking forever and there's 467 stitches per row.
Once you get to the color work, it's going to be awesome.
It's a lot of stitches. The bottom of this was garter and it was
only like 300 stitches in garter and I'm like, oh, it's so taking forever. So I can understand.
(02:29):
Well, I think I'm doing the same thing as Meg because Meg's also working on her
Calliope. So I'm working on a Calliope and she knows the designer and I don't.
Nice. What are you guys working on?
It's Calliope by a space Trico.
That. Tina, tell me about your yarn.
(02:52):
Why you were like Meg's also doing it. I'm like, why is she saying it?
Because I don't know who the designer is. Tell me about your yarn.
So I am working my Calliope in the colorway bless with I believe it's.
(03:13):
It's Druid.
Druid. Yeah. I was going through all the classes in my head from D&D.
And I kept wanting to say rogue, but I was like, no, that's a fingering way. That's wrong.
That's wrong. It's Druid DK.
I know.
From Critical Hit Dies, which happens to be at this table.
(03:38):
Tell me about your project.
Good Lord.
I am also working. This is my second Calliope. I mentioned before, I wanted to make it without
the mohair because as luscious as the mohair is, I am a warm being. It's much.
I'm actually knitting this one out of fiber spates, vivacious DK in the colorway heavenly.
(03:59):
I really love this yarn. I really do.
It looks so pretty.
I love the color. It's like an undefinable, like there's some purple, there's some blue.
There's a little bit of pink.
Depending on the light, it does kind of.
It looks gray when you just look at it head on, but then when you shift it, it actually does change.
There's even like a little bit of peach in there. It's a really cool color.
It's like opalescent.
(04:22):
Opalescent?
Yeah.
No, it is almost. I'm knitting this and I'm like, this would look really good with a mohair,
but at the same time, I'm like, I don't need two sweaters that are stice.
Yeah, I just don't.
I also did not do a mohair.
Oh, God. I tell you, the fabric of the sweater is so nice, but then you put it on and you're like,
(04:42):
and that's enough of that. I'm done with the collar. I'm doing the raglan increases now.
This is like my portable project because that I'm not doing the same one as her,
but I'm also doing a color work to be staked and that's not really portable.
It's just massive. So it's my portable project for now.
(05:04):
It's the one I take to gymnastics and nobody talks to me because they're like, look at that weirdo
sitting there knitting. What are you working on?
I am still working on the arachnishawl by Claire Slade or Verily Knits.
I am using Plies and Hellhounds Penny in Flower Moon and Nightmares.
(05:28):
Thank you.
It is a good combo. It's orange and black.
And that is my matchy make along for the matchy make along with my partner, Tina,
who is doing black and orange instead of orange and black.
Yes, I am.
Yeah.
Because it's spooky.
It is spooky. It's going to be good. And I'm really enjoying the knit,
(05:52):
even though I'm not enjoying it often. It's still good.
Be sure to check out our website, pardonmystache.com for more information
as well as pictures regarding our current projects, patterns and yarns.
Welcome to this week's topic. This week, we're going to get a little controversial up in here.
(06:12):
We're going to press some buttons.
And spooky, I guess, because it's so dangerous.
You're setting the ambiance. Thank you.
No problem.
We're going to talk about pattern and design ethics.
That's right. Get your pitchforks out.
You know, when you're on Ravelry and you see some patterns and they look really similar.
(06:32):
Yes, I have seen that. And it is quite interesting seeing two patterns
looking very similar to each other. You wonder if they may be inspired or something.
Like, well, is it inspiration or is it that it's it's blatant?
Like, do you think it's intentional? And how do you feel about it?
I think one of the issues is like, if you if you look for a stitch Bible,
(06:56):
quote unquote, for lack of a better word, or a stitch book, there are only so many.
It is actually really hard to make up a new stitch pattern that has never been used before.
So many ways to stitch a stitch. Yeah.
And I'm trying to think off the top of my head, I do not believe you can copyright.
(07:17):
And I'm sure that someone will will tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe you can copyright a stitch.
I don't think you can do that. You can copyright a colorwork pattern.
Sometimes you can loophole and copyright the name of a stitch, but then someone else can just
change the name and change the name.
Change the name, change the name. And you can cop and some lace patterns
(07:41):
are copyrighted. Like you can't you can't pirate those.
It's murky at best. But yeah, it's it's I don't know how you can take take a stitch out of, say,
like the Vogue knitting, whatever the hell it is. I have it downstairs. But God, if I know the name,
make a pattern from a bunch of those cobbled together and then say, these are mine.
(08:04):
Yeah. You did not come up with with those stitches. Right. You came up with you put them together.
You made the pattern. Guys, people can't make the notes on a piano. What they make is an arrangement.
Those can be. That's a good point. Yeah, that's actually a good analogy. Yeah.
You can't steal a note. Yeah. It's been around for so long. Right. And crafting and crochet and like
(08:31):
so many different textile arts have been around for so long. Can you really say that anything is
really original anymore? Well, I don't know, though, because like let's just use, for example,
like the just because it's it's super well known, the Elizabeth Zimmerman Baby Surprise jacket.
It's basically if you're not familiar with it, it it's you knit a piece of what looks like really
weird origami and then you fold it up and you put a little seam in it and it makes a cute little baby
(08:56):
jacket. Nobody can make that same thing and then say, well, this is original. I made this. Everybody
knows who made that. Everybody knows that sweater, that exact pattern. But that's a pattern. Right.
But isn't that what we're kind of talking about to an extent? Like, can you can you say if nothing is
new, does that mean that everything is up for grabs? Or are there things that we have to say,
(09:21):
like we have to acknowledge this designer made this and we can't pirate it? So I like to think
of my seed dot beanie. I literally called it the seed dot beanie because it's the seed stitch and
it's the dot stitch. And those were pulled from a Bible. Right. So the copyright, there is a
(09:43):
copyright on there, but the copyright is not for the seed and the dot stitch. The copyright is
my arrangement of the notes and the math so that you can produce the same item that I create in the
photos. So and that's how I feel about copyright on any of those things, including the sweater that
(10:05):
you just mentioned. If it comes out the same exact way in the same exact directions, like that are
written in the same exact way. Yeah, I think that's copy. That's piracy. That's piracy. Yeah, if it's
copy paste, but it's also the coincidental of someone else who has never seen your work is like,
oh man, I like these two stitches together and there's only so many ways you can math up a beanie.
(10:30):
Correct. Correct. But it would be written exactly. But then that would expect it would. There's no,
no, it's not even it's, it's absolutely expected. There's no way that it would be written the same.
It might have similar directions. So like you might have to do a similar knit one, purl one ribbing
(10:50):
or the, the seed stitch where your knit one, purl one, and then you purl one, knit one, like whatever,
like you may have those similar directions, but the design of the pattern itself, the way the PDF
is laid out, if it's accessible or not, like there's so many, the photos, the colors, the like
everything. Well, the base yarn, the yarns that you're using, the gauges, the needles, like all of
(11:15):
that, like would be different no matter. There's so many infinite different possibilities of putting
those items together. There's no way, unless you've seen it before that it would be exactly the same.
It could be similar. It could be similar, but it wouldn't be exactly the same. So, and, and I think
that's where it gets murky because, you know, then it turns into, okay, well, which one was published
(11:40):
first, you know, and, but then you get into, well, the issue of techniques, patterns and designs that
weren't really written down because they're so well known. They're so well thought out, you know,
for example, my very vital beanie is free. Why is it free? Because there is no possible way that my
(12:06):
way of thinking of making a simple stocknet beanie is unique. There is just, there's just absolutely
no way that there isn't somebody out there that has also figured that out because I know for a
fact, there is some grandma who used to make stocknet beanies for their grandkids and is not
(12:28):
using a pattern, just figured the math out just like I did. So that pattern is just, I figured the
math out for you. Here you go. And I honestly did that for myself because I kept doing it for myself
and I was like, I can't get, I forget. I don't want to do math every time. Exactly. So I wrote it down
for myself and I was like, well, I'm not going to, why would I charge for this? This doesn't make
(12:49):
any sense. So I saw recently a pattern get called out and it was literally chain stitch and then you
put it together and you make a bracelet. Like that was the pattern and they were charging $6 for it.
Oh, wait, just space. I mean guys do a YouTube tutorial. You can make those bracelets.
(13:12):
Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, it's like, wow. So like, but like, is it wrong? Is it like not ethically
like sound? Sure. I was like, illegal? No, I, I, I would, I judge the person for doing it and I kind
of side anyone who's paying six bucks for that. So can I, can I play devil's advocate here really
(13:36):
quick? So here's the thing. And I, I, to an extent, I, I agree. Like, I don't like, I don't like the
idea of somebody slapping a price on something that they didn't invent, doesn't belong to them.
But on the flip side, I remember my early, early days of knitting and having first off, no,
(13:57):
no confidence in myself to be able to figure out a, a complicated pattern and absolutely no confidence
in myself to wing it in any way, shape or form. I would have loved, you know, as I'm sitting there
ticking the box of only free patterns on Ravelry, I would have loved some patterns that were more
than just like, you know, the simple stockinette to be free. But I also acknowledge that like,
(14:23):
to an extent, like you did put work into grading that beanie into making sure that the numbers
worked. So to an extent, I can see why somebody who's like, yes, I'm making something that is,
it is very simple. I don't own this, but I did put the work in to check my math and I am providing
(14:43):
you with a service that you apparently require enough to want to pay for. Does that make me
unethical? I don't know if it does. So I would say, I would say in that sense, no,
it doesn't make you unethical. The unethics about it is, I think, taking advantage of the
(15:08):
new, the newbies, because you're right, as a newbie, you have no idea. You wouldn't say,
you would not know that, hey, this, I'm going to go back to my beanie, the stockinette beanie
is a very, very typical pattern and is a very, very typical design that has been made a hundred
(15:29):
ways to Sunday. So no, you wouldn't know that because you're new to the craft and you wouldn't
have no idea. So do I think that other people who sell a stockinette beanie for a price are unethical?
No, I don't. Cause I agree with you about like, you know, you have to put, you put, I did, I put
work into the grading and stuff like that. There was time in that. Is there a sense of like duty?
(15:54):
Maybe is the question as a veteran, you know, somebody who's been doing this for decades or
more to pave the way for the new noobs, the new noobs. Come on now it's the new to say, hey,
like, you know, we need to make our options for things that are insanely
(16:16):
simple, repeatable or simple or something that's going to help them elevate their own skills.
Cause like, I find a stockinette beanie, you learn a lot of different skills with a stockinette.
Right. You do increases, decreases, uh, ribbing, uh, working in the round. There's like a lot of
different things that you can learn inside of that, that little beanie that really seems
(16:37):
inconsequential, but when you're new to knitting, it is, it does teach you, teaches you a lot.
Checking some boxes.
Yes. So I don't, so like that, I think maybe that it's maybe less of an ethics question.
I told you at the start of this, I have very conflicted feelings because I can definitely
see it on both sides. When I say I'm playing devil's advocate, like I'm not even sure as I'm
sitting here, which side I'm on. So I don't know if there is a side, but I think, right. But I think
(17:02):
also there is the whole, I don't think there's a problem with putting a price on something that
you graded and you put together. I am definitely going to side eye you if you then turn around and
somebody who does the same thing and you try to say, well, they stole that from me.
If you're taking a simple stockinette beanie, I think that's pretty universally like what is
(17:23):
wrong with you. Um, unless again, they took your pattern, took your name off it, slap their name
on it and put it online, um, without, you know,
Oh yeah. I know those pictures where you're using the pictures you use and they like cut out your
water monitor. It's the top half of the hat so they don't see you're the one wearing it.
I don't know. I kind of look at it more like, and we've all done things like paid more money
(17:44):
for convenience. Um, I have a pretty terrible problem with, with the Grubhub. Like for example,
I could go pick that up, but I'd rather somebody pick it up for me. Like, so, you know, some days
it's like, yeah, I could sit down and I could math out doing a stockinette beanie, but you know what?
I don't feel like doing it. And if I want to pay somebody money to do it for me, I don't know if
(18:06):
that's taking advantage, I guess. I don't know. This is why I'm torn. Like here's right. It's all
a matter of, okay. So like using the crochet chain bracelet as an example, if it is literally like
you pay six dollars, cause you don't see any of these patterns until you made it. So you pay six
dollars and it's like, okay, chain until it'll fiddle around your wrist and then bind it off
(18:28):
and sew it together. No, no. Now you pay for six hours for this is like, okay, here's how you do a
chain stitch. Now if you measure your wrist, if your wrist is like six inches, you're going to want
to change this many. So it's actually more of a tutorial tutorial. Okay. Yeah. Like, but yeah,
(18:49):
if it's just like, okay, chain stitch, so it fits your hand. Yeah. Okay. So, okay. Going, I'm going
to use again, my patterns as an example. And the reason why I'm doing this, cause I know my patterns,
right? So my very vital, I don't know about this, this wrist lit thing. I just saw it and I went,
wait, what? But, um, even I know how to do that. But, um, for the high vis cowl, right? It's a
(19:15):
brioche cowl. I don't teach you how to brioche in that. And that's why it's free. And that's why
it's free. I'm not saying this is how you bark and this is how you burp. Yeah. There is, there is
like an extent of you should know how to do this. You can look, you can look up bark and burp,
but I'm not going to teach it for you. I thought you were making those words up. I legitimately
(19:36):
had no idea. I had no idea what that was. I thought you were just being weird. It's brioche,
brioche knit and brioche pearl is the, so they, it's BRK and BRP. So it's bark and burp. I had
no idea. I've never tried it. To an extent, you still did do the math for how high it is and how
wide it is. So like, if you did want to charge an amount for that, that would make sense. Now,
(19:59):
I might side I you, if you're like, yeah, $20 for this pattern, I might be like, Tina, what?
Jess, this was an exclusively Louis Vuitton. Listen, it's a Louis Vuitton. It's the tape
rolled bracelet for $5,000. From his neon season, because remember it's the high vis. Have you seen
that? Speaking of that was cracking me up. That's what I'm wearing. I, a scotch tape bracelet. And
(20:21):
I'm like, I've been doing that since I started working at the store. Like, why aren't I getting
10 grand for this bracelet? Because you didn't do it. Like you didn't sell it through Hubert for
50 bucks guys. I could get a whole six pack of them. We can all be like top of the line fashionistas.
It's the same reason why Kanye West can charge like $200 for an undershirt. But you know what,
(20:42):
yeah. Luxury brands is actually a really good example of the same kind of, okay,
what is your personal ethos? Like where is your personal ethics? And that's kind of what is right
and wrong because everybody's is different. Everybody's is different for me. I'm going to
go pick up the food for you. You don't want to pick up a lazy jerk. Me. I would go pick up the
(21:06):
food. I'm a lazy jerk. I want my $4. I just, I'm very cheap. Listen, cheap supersedes. It really
depends. It just depends. If it's a Saturday night and the kid is like not feeling it, I don't feel
like putting her in the car. But, but I think, I think that's why it kind of, um, that's why it's
murky because your definition and my definition and Dre is and jet, however, we all have a kind of a
(21:33):
slightly different take on what we think is right, quote unquote, or wrong. People are going to pay
for what they think has value for them. Correct. Right. Exactly. And for someone that's like,
I really don't feel like doing the math. I'll spend the $4 to get this pattern. You know, that's,
that's worth it to them. Now, um, to Jess's comment about bait and switch patterns.
(22:00):
Unfortunately, I have not seen too many of these on, on Ravelry or, you know, where they don't tell
you until you buy it. Like they don't give you certain parameters until you buy the pattern.
And I don't mean things like the pattern, like the stitches itself, but like when they don't list in
the thing, like these are the techniques you should know before you do this, or this is a top down
(22:23):
sweater instead of a bottom up, or you're going to need X amount of yardage. Like did you ever
like, didn't you just buy a pattern and it was just the color chart. It didn't even give you how to do
the mitten. Cause like, it's like that, that I feel like that's bait and switch. I find, I find that
after a call. I had it just sort of, I guess this is what I'm doing for the cuff. I guess it needs
(22:49):
the cuff somewhere. Cause a cuff, a thumb, a decrease. Cause like it should have just been like,
this is where you put the thumb. I'm like, I guess I'm doing it this way. Cause like, I feel like
that should have been, I'm selling you a color work chart. Right. And you can put this on anything.
You can make a scarf with it. You can make a hat, but that to market that as a, this is a mitten
(23:12):
pattern. That's not even a gusset. That's on ethical. And I mean, that's one of the things
I really like about the Ravelry. Like, um, you know, the categories that you can put in when you,
when you go to do a pattern, like you can say, Hey, this has baubles or this has, um, you know,
stranded color work or stinking or whatever. Um, but those are the kinds of things that you should
(23:34):
put up front before you sell a pattern. What are the elements in the pattern? Right. What,
what should you be expected to know before you do this? What's the difficulty level? Um,
or need even like, cause sometimes you'll get the pattern you think you have all of it. And these,
this one's minor, but it's like, then you go into it and it's like, Oh, PS to cast on, you actually
(23:56):
need this size needle. We only told you about this other size needle before you bought it. So now
it's like, Oh, now I gotta go find this needle again. That's a minor inconvenience, but just
something to be like, maybe like, I know designers that I won't call out right now that won't put
(24:18):
the, the stitches, the type of stitches they're using, cause they're afraid if they put it in
the summary, I put mine in the summary. There's a list at the bottom, all the stitches, stitch types
I use in the pattern so that if you don't know something or it's not something you want to do,
you can skip it. You're like, okay, I'm not going to do this. It just says like, Oh, there's knit
togethers and noops and there's never new, but whatever, but there are, there are, there are
(24:43):
designers and they didn't tell me there was a new, I at least want to know. No, but there are
designers that won't do it because they feel like that will allow you to steal down and do this.
No, like that is so much work. There's a new blood. Let me look at this tiny picture. I am a lazy.
(25:03):
Listen, listen, I can't do fifth grade math. Like that's a confession right here. I am not
mapping out how to do your pattern just so I don't have to pay the $6 to download it. Hold on. That
is not a thing I'm going to do. I need to, I need to get into, into my persona. Oh God.
Oh God. Let me flick my hair real quick. So like Meg, you don't understand. Like I am a fantastic
(25:27):
designer and everybody wants to steal my work. So I don't want to let everybody know what's going on.
I just, like that's, this is, this is me. Like if there's ever an issue where there's some sort of
math in a pattern, I just whine at Jess until she maths it for me because I don't do that.
I like, this is not my forte. I can't do it. There is no way I'm reverse engineering anything.
(25:50):
And you don't need to be like, have my math caliber or lack thereof to just be like,
that is so much work. Patterns are not, I don't mean to say they're not horrifically expensive,
but they're not horrifically expensive. They're not. They're a way under price compared to other
crafts. Other crafts. Absolutely. So I just don't, but I guess, I guess there's also a part of me
(26:16):
that's like, man, you want to do all that work. Like I shine on you crazy diamond, like go ahead.
That's a lot of work. I don't know why you ever want to put in that much work. I feel like I,
I don't know unless somebody like physically stole like my PDF design layout, I'm really not going
to care. Like if you want to make, if you want to make the dot seed beanie and like it's essentially
(26:43):
the beanie I made, but like, I don't know, they're flipped or something. And then like, and then like
you have your own like pattern layout and stuff. Like I literally don't care. I don't know.
I certainly see. So one of the things, and this is maybe a whole other question for you guys,
but one of the most common ones I see are people that they want to make a sweater.
They don't want to do the trouble of grading. So they buy or they take a color work sweater pattern.
(27:10):
They copy the same stitch counts. They figure out a color work that fits in the same count
and they market it as their own. Is that piracy? Oh, that's kind of lame. I don't know if that's
piracy, but that's because it'd be really hard to prove. Yeah. I think it would be hard to prove.
Yeah. I think it would be hard to prove. Right. But I think it's, it has something more to say
(27:33):
that you're not, you're, you're not creating a new sweater. You're just creating a new chart.
Right. Well, and, and it's also like, you're not,
you let somebody else do the hard work of grading and testing. And, and especially if it comes in
multiple sizes. Oh, you mean buying somebody else's pattern? Yes. Taking, taking an existing
(27:56):
sweater pattern. One that you did not, one that you yourself, no, no, no, no. If you want to,
if you want to slap different charts in there by all means, like that's your sweater. I'm talking
about like people who take a sweater pattern. Like that exists and you just take it and you find,
or you create a chart that fits in those same numbers. And then boom, pattern's done. You
(28:17):
don't have to grade it. You don't have to even really test it. You can just market it. That's
lame. I think that's a little, I don't like that. I don't like it either because you're basically
taking half of somebody of somebody else's work. Right. And that's the heavy load. Yeah. Like,
and I'm not, this is not to denigrate, like making color patterns. Um, there are a lot of fun,
(28:40):
like to try to play around with color charts and stuff. That's a lot of fun. That's the fun part
of making a color work sweater. The crappy part is doing all the grading and the stitch counts
and the different weights and you know, so on and so forth. And I feel like that's kind of taking
the cheap and dirty way out. I feel like I'm getting kind of snobbish when it comes to sweater
patterns too. And I'll tell you why, because I feel like I, so the Calliope doesn't bother me
(29:06):
because it's free. So I don't care. But like, for example, if I'm going to pay for a sweater
pattern at this point, you better give me darts. You better give me, uh, you better give me German
short rows. You better give me an ability to adjust the waist, the shoulder, the bust, all custom.
Like I am not paying for it unless you have legitimately went through and given me a lot
(29:29):
of fricking options because I have bought way too many patterns at this point for a garment
where all they change is the bust and they don't consider your cup size. They don't consider like
your waist. They don't consider your arms. And then like you make this thing and yeah, it fits
your chest. Great. But like, I can't get my arms through it because I have excess skin or I can't
(29:53):
like my waist, like it's blooming in my waist because I have a tinier waist than my bust or like,
it's just like, I'm, I'm a little snobby when it comes to sweater patterns at this point. And I
think it's honestly because I've tested a few now. I liked some of the ones I tested keyword. Um,
and I just feel like at this point, it's like almost like not saying that like other sweater
(30:19):
patterns should be free, but I'm not paying like Boko bucks. Yeah. Yeah. That's my personal choice.
I am not going to pay Boko bucks. And when I say Boko bucks, I mean like over $10 for a sweater
pattern that doesn't have an extensive amount of work done to it. Well, yeah, because if you're
spending the time and the money and the energy to make yourself custom clothes, you want them to
(30:42):
custom fit. And I think I think honestly, it's because I'm getting bougie with my own pattern.
So, and I'm not even doing garments. I'm doing accessories. And if my accessory, if I can make
enough options in my accessories, I feel like you can do it with other things too. Like take the
time. And if you're not going to take it to time, price it accordingly. Like, and that's fine. Like
you don't have to take the time. You don't have to make it. I don't think I, you don't have to make
(31:06):
it size inclusive. I don't, and I know that's a terrible thing. Oh, come after me. You, I will
support every size inclusive pattern that I see. I think it's really important, but if somebody
doesn't want to do it, that is their choice. I hope they price it that way. And I hope they deal
with the fact that there's people that are not going to buy it because it's not size inclusive,
but it's again, every designer has their own choice of how they're going to put out that
(31:30):
design in that pattern. And then you choose as a consumer based on how they're presenting. Okay.
Like this, I'm going to buy from this person because they do all this extra stuff that it is
size inclusive. It is this, it is that, or I'm our, I, Oh, I know this person's just going to
give me a chart for my mittens and like nothing else. So I'm not going to buy any further patterns
(31:52):
or, you know, like whatever. Like I think it's, well, I think to an extent you, you need to,
um, to own that as well. Um, we've gotten as, as, uh, dyers, we've had some feedback that people
wish we would offer more non-superwash. It's not our forte. I don't like that. It's something that
we have tried. We do have two, two non-superwash options. We don't enjoy it. Like we've tried it.
(32:16):
We really struggle with it. It's definitely not our forte and we're not, we don't hide behind that.
It's we've been very open with this is not something we enjoy doing. There are so many
wonderful yarn dyers that do that. And we do not, you know, if, if that is what you were looking
for, like, man, I can give you a list of people that I absolutely love that I would a hundred
(32:41):
percent support, but I'm not going to sit here and cry and be like, Oh, you know, we lost these people.
Like they don't want to shop from us because we don't, we don't use enough non-superwash. It's
like, that's our choice. They don't like that we use acid dyes. It's like, that's fine too. And that's
fair. That's a preference. Yup. So it, but it is, we're not going to be like, wow, well, that's awful.
(33:02):
You should like acid. And it's like, no, you don't have to. People are allowed to have preferences,
but you don't have to cater to them. Exactly. Well, and it's, but that's the thing. It's like,
I also, I don't have to cater, but I also don't have the right to complain. Yeah. You know what
I'm saying? Like it's, that's the ticket. We have made a decision and you have made a decision and
(33:22):
that's fine. But then it's, it's own that choice. Own the decision that you have made. Yep. Because
you don't get to tell the rest of the world how they have to behave. You can only choose how you
behave. And I think that, yeah. And I think that gets back to the whole like, you know,
is it ethical? Is it not? Is it whatever? I think we've established what illegal is, which is
basically just, just stealing and putting your name on it. Just straight up plagiarism. But like in
(33:47):
terms of being ethical or not, you're right. It's at that point, it's you're going to do what you're
going to do. And based on your own ethos, what is, you know, the answer is going to be based on what,
what's important to you. You have no right to tell other people what you're going to do to them.
Unless they're legitimately plagiarizing your stuff. Listen, if you don't, again, if you don't
(34:08):
see your head cut off, you're also making a t-shirt guys. It's existed. Okay. Like t-shirts are older
than everybody. No. And I think there is something also to be said for like color work motifs or,
you know, if somebody chooses a leaf motif, Oh God, the leaves. And you have a leaf motif. I mean,
there are, if I, if I put leaf motif into Ravelry, I'm going to get 10,000 patterns. Like,
(34:32):
you know, I think there's, but I mean, like, I think, I think maybe it's like, and also take a,
take a breather. And I think this is really, this is something that I have struggled with a lot is
take a breath, think. And one of the things that I tell my kids, because I teach politics and that
(34:52):
gets real contentious at times is try to remember or try to at least go into everything, not assuming
the worst out of the person that you feel a problem with. Try to go in with the, with imagining the
best of intentions. They didn't plagiarize unless, I mean, again, unless your head is literally
(35:14):
cropped up. But like, yeah, it's, it's like, okay. So maybe they also had the idea to do a leaf motif
sweater. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're plagiarizing. And I mean, granted, if they, if you
get pushback and they're like, hell yeah, I did steal it. Like, what are you going to do about it?
Yeah. Then you can be upset about it. But again, guys, knitting is so old and it's been around for
(35:35):
so long. There's only so many ways that you can put stitches together. There's, there's so much
that isn't. And I really do feel like going into every, every interaction, elbows up, ready to fight
and assuming that everyone out there is about to steal your product. It's just, I don't, I don't know.
I think that's going to cause more grief than it's going to heal. I feel like most people
(35:57):
don't care enough. I feel like it's there's a lot of isolation too. If you're going to go
as far as to steal, I mean, if you want my personal advice, I think if you're going to be a thief,
be a good thief, you know, like let's, let's look at it from the thief's point of view. Okay.
My D and D character, uh, really is listening to this right now. Okay. All right. Listen,
(36:21):
Raya. No, I'm actually being serious and I'm saying if you're going to be a thief, be a good
thief. And what I mean by that is if you're going to go through with, okay, I'm going to buy this
pattern. I'm going to like, be lazy. I'm not going to do any of this work. Then shoot. The work you
should put in is to make it look like you did it. Right. Like do the extra shift and increase,
(36:46):
like change the word somewhere. Like if you're going to go, if you're going to be lazy,
somebody else's picture, even if it doesn't make sense, if you're going to be lazy in the stealing,
okay. And not do the work there, you should do the work. So I'm making it not look,
it's just like when people take future thieves, it's just like when people take Chad GBT to write
(37:12):
an essay for school, right? Meg's going to love this. And then you take the essay and you're like,
okay, I'm not just going to copy paste it from Chad GBT. I'm going to like go in and like change
some words and like, you know, do this thing. I'm not going to feel bad about telling this story
because it's about a college student. She's an adult. So I don't feel bad. My favorite,
my favorite ever plagiarism story. It's my favorite. I was teaching college and I asked
(37:35):
my kids to write an essay about literally anything like to do with American history. Like they could
pick any topic and they had to connect it to American identity. Like how did this help us
become a country and form an identity? Somebody wrote theirs on the Boston Tea Party. I love this
story. It's a great story. And, and she definitely plagiarized it. And I could, I could tell because
(37:56):
you can, you can tell, especially when you've had a student all semester. But she did that ingenious
thing that kids do where they think they're being really slick. And unfortunately, Chad GBT, like,
they don't have to do this anymore because I can't just take a line and put it in Google and,
and there pops up the article. What she did was she took an article off Google and she
strategically changed words, but the word that she changed was, was tea. And she changed it to
(38:21):
Boston Beverage Party. The entire essay was the Boston Beverage Party. And I was like, oh my God,
the BBP guys, the BBP. That was my favorite. And, and it's, it was scandal. Oh my God.
And it literally took me like five minutes of sitting there and looking at it to be like,
(38:42):
oh my God, that's what she means by this. Like what are you saying? They're like,
what is she talking? What beverage? I was really confused. But yeah, like that's,
but I think honestly, I was thinking about that before when we were talking about like,
um, you know, notes and, um, and stitches, but it's the same with writing in that you,
(39:03):
unless you're Shakespeare, you're not making up words. But if you take an entire sentence
or an entire paragraph that somebody else wrote and you don't credit it, we all, I hope,
except that that is theft. Oh yes. Yeah. That that is dishonest. It's not your work. So
(39:23):
I should hold on to crafting as well. Hold on. Let me put an asterisk on my whole segment back
there. So my asterisk, yeah, this is going to be quote misquoted and then people are going to be
like, she's a thief. No. Um, so here's my asterisk is that entire segment was a joke and you really
shouldn't thief from people. I hope you understood the sarcasm everybody, but, uh, welcome to the
(39:48):
show. Oh my God. A plus plus. Oh God. No, I don't, I don't support thievery. I'm just saying if
you're going to be lazy, damn or Dan Dan. Yeah. Dan. Yeah. Dan. I think, I think it is one of
(40:10):
those things like, like with conscience of if it doesn't feel good, you probably shouldn't be doing
it. I agree. You know, if it do what you, what you do with your craft that this doesn't apply
to sociopaths, by the way, I know, I know, but they have no feelings, but if, if there is something
(40:30):
in the back of your head telling you this is not right, you should probably listen to that. Yeah.
To the little voice. Yeah. I'm just saying things these days are not unique in the knitting world.
Correct. Rarely, very rarely are things unique in the knitting world today. You can't copyright
(40:51):
your stitches, but you can copyright your patterns. Yes. And if you see a pattern and you like it,
you should pay somebody for it. If they put the work in for it and that's what they're asking for,
you should give them what they want, which if free is what they want, free is what they get.
Right. Right. Yeah. And you shouldn't steal. Don't be a thief. If it feels wrong, it probably is
(41:13):
wrong. I agree. That's it for this week's topic for additional content and opportunities to connect
with us, the cast, check out our website at part of my stash.com. Be sure to tune in next time
for more laughs, love, and llamas at part of my stash.
I'm Drea. I'm Meg. I'm Tina. And I'm Jess. And this is Part in My Stash.
(00:12):
Welcome to Part in My Stash, a podcast about knitting within the fiber arts and how awesome it is.
Before we get into today's topic, let's check out what we're working on this week. Jess?
Well, I was working on the vest and then I got mad at the pattern. So now I am working on
the wrap, which is between the dragon and his wrap. And it's a color work and I love it.
(00:37):
That's so bright.
Right? Isn't it awesome?
What is that blue?
This blue is Thunderwave.
Is it?
Yeah, it's Thunderwave from Critical Hit Dies and Copper Dragon from Critical Hit Dies.
And they're both on Paladin, which is like, I haven't worked with a worsted weight yarn in
forever, but it's not so bad. I did go down a needle size because working with nines was like,
(01:00):
Awful.
No, eights is okay.
Broomsticks?
You know, it doesn't look like that big of a difference, but it feels like that.
I don't like knitting worsted in nines. It just feels too much.
I also felt like it would give a little too much. Like this is coming out really nice where I'm at.
Can I touch it? It looks squishy.
(01:20):
It is super squishy. You may touch it.
And I like this one. It's a nice color work. For the record, it is squishy.
It's super squishy, right?
But yeah, so I'm excited about this one. I am doing a little bit of a modification on the middle
of the pattern because I wanted the dragon's horns to be longer, so I've tested it because I
(01:40):
thought it just looked too flat. So I changed it a little bit, but I haven't gotten that far yet.
So we'll see how that works out. But that is what I am working on now and it's lots of fun.
And then at the end, I get to stick it.
So we're going to have fun with that too. Oh Lord.
Lots of fun stuff. This is also part of my matchy make along with Meg now because we changed.
(02:03):
I forgot. I actually did Rose on mine.
I'm almost turning the hem on it. I'm almost turning the hem.
It's just taking forever and there's 467 stitches per row.
Once you get to the color work, it's going to be awesome.
It's a lot of stitches. The bottom of this was garter and it was
only like 300 stitches in garter and I'm like, oh, it's so taking forever. So I can understand.
(02:29):
Well, I think I'm doing the same thing as Meg because Meg's also working on her
Calliope. So I'm working on a Calliope and she knows the designer and I don't.
Nice. What are you guys working on?
It's Calliope by a space Trico.
That. Tina, tell me about your yarn.
(02:52):
Why you were like Meg's also doing it. I'm like, why is she saying it?
Because I don't know who the designer is. Tell me about your yarn.
So I am working my Calliope in the colorway bless with I believe it's.
(03:13):
It's Druid.
Druid. Yeah. I was going through all the classes in my head from D&D.
And I kept wanting to say rogue, but I was like, no, that's a fingering way. That's wrong.
That's wrong. It's Druid DK.
I know.
From Critical Hit Dies, which happens to be at this table.
(03:38):
Tell me about your project.
Good Lord.
I am also working. This is my second Calliope. I mentioned before, I wanted to make it without
the mohair because as luscious as the mohair is, I am a warm being. It's much.
I'm actually knitting this one out of fiber spates, vivacious DK in the colorway heavenly.
(03:59):
I really love this yarn. I really do.
It looks so pretty.
I love the color. It's like an undefinable, like there's some purple, there's some blue.
There's a little bit of pink.
Depending on the light, it does kind of.
It looks gray when you just look at it head on, but then when you shift it, it actually does change.
There's even like a little bit of peach in there. It's a really cool color.
It's like opalescent.
(04:22):
Opalescent?
Yeah.
No, it is almost. I'm knitting this and I'm like, this would look really good with a mohair,
but at the same time, I'm like, I don't need two sweaters that are stice.
Yeah, I just don't.
I also did not do a mohair.
Oh, God. I tell you, the fabric of the sweater is so nice, but then you put it on and you're like,
(04:42):
and that's enough of that. I'm done with the collar. I'm doing the raglan increases now.
This is like my portable project because that I'm not doing the same one as her,
but I'm also doing a color work to be staked and that's not really portable.
It's just massive. So it's my portable project for now.
(05:04):
It's the one I take to gymnastics and nobody talks to me because they're like, look at that weirdo
sitting there knitting. What are you working on?
I am still working on the arachnishawl by Claire Slade or Verily Knits.
I am using Plies and Hellhounds Penny in Flower Moon and Nightmares.
(05:28):
Thank you.
It is a good combo. It's orange and black.
And that is my matchy make along for the matchy make along with my partner, Tina,
who is doing black and orange instead of orange and black.
Yes, I am.
Yeah.
Because it's spooky.
It is spooky. It's going to be good. And I'm really enjoying the knit,
(05:52):
even though I'm not enjoying it often. It's still good.
Be sure to check out our website, pardonmystache.com for more information
as well as pictures regarding our current projects, patterns and yarns.
Welcome to this week's topic. This week, we're going to get a little controversial up in here.
(06:12):
We're going to press some buttons.
And spooky, I guess, because it's so dangerous.
You're setting the ambiance. Thank you.
No problem.
We're going to talk about pattern and design ethics.
That's right. Get your pitchforks out.
You know, when you're on Ravelry and you see some patterns and they look really similar.
(06:32):
Yes, I have seen that. And it is quite interesting seeing two patterns
looking very similar to each other. You wonder if they may be inspired or something.
Like, well, is it inspiration or is it that it's it's blatant?
Like, do you think it's intentional? And how do you feel about it?
I think one of the issues is like, if you if you look for a stitch Bible,
(06:56):
quote unquote, for lack of a better word, or a stitch book, there are only so many.
It is actually really hard to make up a new stitch pattern that has never been used before.
So many ways to stitch a stitch. Yeah.
And I'm trying to think off the top of my head, I do not believe you can copyright.
(07:17):
And I'm sure that someone will will tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe you can copyright a stitch.
I don't think you can do that. You can copyright a colorwork pattern.
Sometimes you can loophole and copyright the name of a stitch, but then someone else can just
change the name and change the name.
Change the name, change the name. And you can cop and some lace patterns
(07:41):
are copyrighted. Like you can't you can't pirate those.
It's murky at best. But yeah, it's it's I don't know how you can take take a stitch out of, say,
like the Vogue knitting, whatever the hell it is. I have it downstairs. But God, if I know the name,
make a pattern from a bunch of those cobbled together and then say, these are mine.
(08:04):
Yeah. You did not come up with with those stitches. Right. You came up with you put them together.
You made the pattern. Guys, people can't make the notes on a piano. What they make is an arrangement.
Those can be. That's a good point. Yeah, that's actually a good analogy. Yeah.
You can't steal a note. Yeah. It's been around for so long. Right. And crafting and crochet and like
(08:31):
so many different textile arts have been around for so long. Can you really say that anything is
really original anymore? Well, I don't know, though, because like let's just use, for example,
like the just because it's it's super well known, the Elizabeth Zimmerman Baby Surprise jacket.
It's basically if you're not familiar with it, it it's you knit a piece of what looks like really
weird origami and then you fold it up and you put a little seam in it and it makes a cute little baby
(08:56):
jacket. Nobody can make that same thing and then say, well, this is original. I made this. Everybody
knows who made that. Everybody knows that sweater, that exact pattern. But that's a pattern. Right.
But isn't that what we're kind of talking about to an extent? Like, can you can you say if nothing is
new, does that mean that everything is up for grabs? Or are there things that we have to say,
(09:21):
like we have to acknowledge this designer made this and we can't pirate it? So I like to think
of my seed dot beanie. I literally called it the seed dot beanie because it's the seed stitch and
it's the dot stitch. And those were pulled from a Bible. Right. So the copyright, there is a
(09:43):
copyright on there, but the copyright is not for the seed and the dot stitch. The copyright is
my arrangement of the notes and the math so that you can produce the same item that I create in the
photos. So and that's how I feel about copyright on any of those things, including the sweater that
(10:05):
you just mentioned. If it comes out the same exact way in the same exact directions, like that are
written in the same exact way. Yeah, I think that's copy. That's piracy. That's piracy. Yeah, if it's
copy paste, but it's also the coincidental of someone else who has never seen your work is like,
oh man, I like these two stitches together and there's only so many ways you can math up a beanie.
(10:30):
Correct. Correct. But it would be written exactly. But then that would expect it would. There's no,
no, it's not even it's, it's absolutely expected. There's no way that it would be written the same.
It might have similar directions. So like you might have to do a similar knit one, purl one ribbing
(10:50):
or the, the seed stitch where your knit one, purl one, and then you purl one, knit one, like whatever,
like you may have those similar directions, but the design of the pattern itself, the way the PDF
is laid out, if it's accessible or not, like there's so many, the photos, the colors, the like
everything. Well, the base yarn, the yarns that you're using, the gauges, the needles, like all of
(11:15):
that, like would be different no matter. There's so many infinite different possibilities of putting
those items together. There's no way, unless you've seen it before that it would be exactly the same.
It could be similar. It could be similar, but it wouldn't be exactly the same. So, and, and I think
that's where it gets murky because, you know, then it turns into, okay, well, which one was published
(11:40):
first, you know, and, but then you get into, well, the issue of techniques, patterns and designs that
weren't really written down because they're so well known. They're so well thought out, you know,
for example, my very vital beanie is free. Why is it free? Because there is no possible way that my
(12:06):
way of thinking of making a simple stocknet beanie is unique. There is just, there's just absolutely
no way that there isn't somebody out there that has also figured that out because I know for a
fact, there is some grandma who used to make stocknet beanies for their grandkids and is not
(12:28):
using a pattern, just figured the math out just like I did. So that pattern is just, I figured the
math out for you. Here you go. And I honestly did that for myself because I kept doing it for myself
and I was like, I can't get, I forget. I don't want to do math every time. Exactly. So I wrote it down
for myself and I was like, well, I'm not going to, why would I charge for this? This doesn't make
(12:49):
any sense. So I saw recently a pattern get called out and it was literally chain stitch and then you
put it together and you make a bracelet. Like that was the pattern and they were charging $6 for it.
Oh, wait, just space. I mean guys do a YouTube tutorial. You can make those bracelets.
(13:12):
Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, it's like, wow. So like, but like, is it wrong? Is it like not ethically
like sound? Sure. I was like, illegal? No, I, I, I would, I judge the person for doing it and I kind
of side anyone who's paying six bucks for that. So can I, can I play devil's advocate here really
(13:36):
quick? So here's the thing. And I, I, to an extent, I, I agree. Like, I don't like, I don't like the
idea of somebody slapping a price on something that they didn't invent, doesn't belong to them.
But on the flip side, I remember my early, early days of knitting and having first off, no,
(13:57):
no confidence in myself to be able to figure out a, a complicated pattern and absolutely no confidence
in myself to wing it in any way, shape or form. I would have loved, you know, as I'm sitting there
ticking the box of only free patterns on Ravelry, I would have loved some patterns that were more
than just like, you know, the simple stockinette to be free. But I also acknowledge that like,
(14:23):
to an extent, like you did put work into grading that beanie into making sure that the numbers
worked. So to an extent, I can see why somebody who's like, yes, I'm making something that is,
it is very simple. I don't own this, but I did put the work in to check my math and I am providing
(14:43):
you with a service that you apparently require enough to want to pay for. Does that make me
unethical? I don't know if it does. So I would say, I would say in that sense, no,
it doesn't make you unethical. The unethics about it is, I think, taking advantage of the
(15:08):
new, the newbies, because you're right, as a newbie, you have no idea. You wouldn't say,
you would not know that, hey, this, I'm going to go back to my beanie, the stockinette beanie
is a very, very typical pattern and is a very, very typical design that has been made a hundred
(15:29):
ways to Sunday. So no, you wouldn't know that because you're new to the craft and you wouldn't
have no idea. So do I think that other people who sell a stockinette beanie for a price are unethical?
No, I don't. Cause I agree with you about like, you know, you have to put, you put, I did, I put
work into the grading and stuff like that. There was time in that. Is there a sense of like duty?
(15:54):
Maybe is the question as a veteran, you know, somebody who's been doing this for decades or
more to pave the way for the new noobs, the new noobs. Come on now it's the new to say, hey,
like, you know, we need to make our options for things that are insanely
(16:16):
simple, repeatable or simple or something that's going to help them elevate their own skills.
Cause like, I find a stockinette beanie, you learn a lot of different skills with a stockinette.
Right. You do increases, decreases, uh, ribbing, uh, working in the round. There's like a lot of
different things that you can learn inside of that, that little beanie that really seems
(16:37):
inconsequential, but when you're new to knitting, it is, it does teach you, teaches you a lot.
Checking some boxes.
Yes. So I don't, so like that, I think maybe that it's maybe less of an ethics question.
I told you at the start of this, I have very conflicted feelings because I can definitely
see it on both sides. When I say I'm playing devil's advocate, like I'm not even sure as I'm
sitting here, which side I'm on. So I don't know if there is a side, but I think, right. But I think
(17:02):
also there is the whole, I don't think there's a problem with putting a price on something that
you graded and you put together. I am definitely going to side eye you if you then turn around and
somebody who does the same thing and you try to say, well, they stole that from me.
If you're taking a simple stockinette beanie, I think that's pretty universally like what is
(17:23):
wrong with you. Um, unless again, they took your pattern, took your name off it, slap their name
on it and put it online, um, without, you know,
Oh yeah. I know those pictures where you're using the pictures you use and they like cut out your
water monitor. It's the top half of the hat so they don't see you're the one wearing it.
I don't know. I kind of look at it more like, and we've all done things like paid more money
(17:44):
for convenience. Um, I have a pretty terrible problem with, with the Grubhub. Like for example,
I could go pick that up, but I'd rather somebody pick it up for me. Like, so, you know, some days
it's like, yeah, I could sit down and I could math out doing a stockinette beanie, but you know what?
I don't feel like doing it. And if I want to pay somebody money to do it for me, I don't know if
(18:06):
that's taking advantage, I guess. I don't know. This is why I'm torn. Like here's right. It's all
a matter of, okay. So like using the crochet chain bracelet as an example, if it is literally like
you pay six dollars, cause you don't see any of these patterns until you made it. So you pay six
dollars and it's like, okay, chain until it'll fiddle around your wrist and then bind it off
(18:28):
and sew it together. No, no. Now you pay for six hours for this is like, okay, here's how you do a
chain stitch. Now if you measure your wrist, if your wrist is like six inches, you're going to want
to change this many. So it's actually more of a tutorial tutorial. Okay. Yeah. Like, but yeah,
(18:49):
if it's just like, okay, chain stitch, so it fits your hand. Yeah. Okay. So, okay. Going, I'm going
to use again, my patterns as an example. And the reason why I'm doing this, cause I know my patterns,
right? So my very vital, I don't know about this, this wrist lit thing. I just saw it and I went,
wait, what? But, um, even I know how to do that. But, um, for the high vis cowl, right? It's a
(19:15):
brioche cowl. I don't teach you how to brioche in that. And that's why it's free. And that's why
it's free. I'm not saying this is how you bark and this is how you burp. Yeah. There is, there is
like an extent of you should know how to do this. You can look, you can look up bark and burp,
but I'm not going to teach it for you. I thought you were making those words up. I legitimately
(19:36):
had no idea. I had no idea what that was. I thought you were just being weird. It's brioche,
brioche knit and brioche pearl is the, so they, it's BRK and BRP. So it's bark and burp. I had
no idea. I've never tried it. To an extent, you still did do the math for how high it is and how
wide it is. So like, if you did want to charge an amount for that, that would make sense. Now,
(19:59):
I might side I you, if you're like, yeah, $20 for this pattern, I might be like, Tina, what?
Jess, this was an exclusively Louis Vuitton. Listen, it's a Louis Vuitton. It's the tape
rolled bracelet for $5,000. From his neon season, because remember it's the high vis. Have you seen
that? Speaking of that was cracking me up. That's what I'm wearing. I, a scotch tape bracelet. And
(20:21):
I'm like, I've been doing that since I started working at the store. Like, why aren't I getting
10 grand for this bracelet? Because you didn't do it. Like you didn't sell it through Hubert for
50 bucks guys. I could get a whole six pack of them. We can all be like top of the line fashionistas.
It's the same reason why Kanye West can charge like $200 for an undershirt. But you know what,
(20:42):
yeah. Luxury brands is actually a really good example of the same kind of, okay,
what is your personal ethos? Like where is your personal ethics? And that's kind of what is right
and wrong because everybody's is different. Everybody's is different for me. I'm going to
go pick up the food for you. You don't want to pick up a lazy jerk. Me. I would go pick up the
(21:06):
food. I'm a lazy jerk. I want my $4. I just, I'm very cheap. Listen, cheap supersedes. It really
depends. It just depends. If it's a Saturday night and the kid is like not feeling it, I don't feel
like putting her in the car. But, but I think, I think that's why it kind of, um, that's why it's
murky because your definition and my definition and Dre is and jet, however, we all have a kind of a
(21:33):
slightly different take on what we think is right, quote unquote, or wrong. People are going to pay
for what they think has value for them. Correct. Right. Exactly. And for someone that's like,
I really don't feel like doing the math. I'll spend the $4 to get this pattern. You know, that's,
that's worth it to them. Now, um, to Jess's comment about bait and switch patterns.
(22:00):
Unfortunately, I have not seen too many of these on, on Ravelry or, you know, where they don't tell
you until you buy it. Like they don't give you certain parameters until you buy the pattern.
And I don't mean things like the pattern, like the stitches itself, but like when they don't list in
the thing, like these are the techniques you should know before you do this, or this is a top down
(22:23):
sweater instead of a bottom up, or you're going to need X amount of yardage. Like did you ever
like, didn't you just buy a pattern and it was just the color chart. It didn't even give you how to do
the mitten. Cause like, it's like that, that I feel like that's bait and switch. I find, I find that
after a call. I had it just sort of, I guess this is what I'm doing for the cuff. I guess it needs
(22:49):
the cuff somewhere. Cause a cuff, a thumb, a decrease. Cause like it should have just been like,
this is where you put the thumb. I'm like, I guess I'm doing it this way. Cause like, I feel like
that should have been, I'm selling you a color work chart. Right. And you can put this on anything.
You can make a scarf with it. You can make a hat, but that to market that as a, this is a mitten
(23:12):
pattern. That's not even a gusset. That's on ethical. And I mean, that's one of the things
I really like about the Ravelry. Like, um, you know, the categories that you can put in when you,
when you go to do a pattern, like you can say, Hey, this has baubles or this has, um, you know,
stranded color work or stinking or whatever. Um, but those are the kinds of things that you should
(23:34):
put up front before you sell a pattern. What are the elements in the pattern? Right. What,
what should you be expected to know before you do this? What's the difficulty level? Um,
or need even like, cause sometimes you'll get the pattern you think you have all of it. And these,
this one's minor, but it's like, then you go into it and it's like, Oh, PS to cast on, you actually
(23:56):
need this size needle. We only told you about this other size needle before you bought it. So now
it's like, Oh, now I gotta go find this needle again. That's a minor inconvenience, but just
something to be like, maybe like, I know designers that I won't call out right now that won't put
(24:18):
the, the stitches, the type of stitches they're using, cause they're afraid if they put it in
the summary, I put mine in the summary. There's a list at the bottom, all the stitches, stitch types
I use in the pattern so that if you don't know something or it's not something you want to do,
you can skip it. You're like, okay, I'm not going to do this. It just says like, Oh, there's knit
togethers and noops and there's never new, but whatever, but there are, there are, there are
(24:43):
designers and they didn't tell me there was a new, I at least want to know. No, but there are
designers that won't do it because they feel like that will allow you to steal down and do this.
No, like that is so much work. There's a new blood. Let me look at this tiny picture. I am a lazy.
(25:03):
Listen, listen, I can't do fifth grade math. Like that's a confession right here. I am not
mapping out how to do your pattern just so I don't have to pay the $6 to download it. Hold on. That
is not a thing I'm going to do. I need to, I need to get into, into my persona. Oh God.
Oh God. Let me flick my hair real quick. So like Meg, you don't understand. Like I am a fantastic
(25:27):
designer and everybody wants to steal my work. So I don't want to let everybody know what's going on.
I just, like that's, this is, this is me. Like if there's ever an issue where there's some sort of
math in a pattern, I just whine at Jess until she maths it for me because I don't do that.
I like, this is not my forte. I can't do it. There is no way I'm reverse engineering anything.
(25:50):
And you don't need to be like, have my math caliber or lack thereof to just be like,
that is so much work. Patterns are not, I don't mean to say they're not horrifically expensive,
but they're not horrifically expensive. They're not. They're a way under price compared to other
crafts. Other crafts. Absolutely. So I just don't, but I guess, I guess there's also a part of me
(26:16):
that's like, man, you want to do all that work. Like I shine on you crazy diamond, like go ahead.
That's a lot of work. I don't know why you ever want to put in that much work. I feel like I,
I don't know unless somebody like physically stole like my PDF design layout, I'm really not going
to care. Like if you want to make, if you want to make the dot seed beanie and like it's essentially
(26:43):
the beanie I made, but like, I don't know, they're flipped or something. And then like, and then like
you have your own like pattern layout and stuff. Like I literally don't care. I don't know.
I certainly see. So one of the things, and this is maybe a whole other question for you guys,
but one of the most common ones I see are people that they want to make a sweater.
They don't want to do the trouble of grading. So they buy or they take a color work sweater pattern.
(27:10):
They copy the same stitch counts. They figure out a color work that fits in the same count
and they market it as their own. Is that piracy? Oh, that's kind of lame. I don't know if that's
piracy, but that's because it'd be really hard to prove. Yeah. I think it would be hard to prove.
Yeah. I think it would be hard to prove. Right. But I think it's, it has something more to say
(27:33):
that you're not, you're, you're not creating a new sweater. You're just creating a new chart.
Right. Well, and, and it's also like, you're not,
you let somebody else do the hard work of grading and testing. And, and especially if it comes in
multiple sizes. Oh, you mean buying somebody else's pattern? Yes. Taking, taking an existing
(27:56):
sweater pattern. One that you did not, one that you yourself, no, no, no, no. If you want to,
if you want to slap different charts in there by all means, like that's your sweater. I'm talking
about like people who take a sweater pattern. Like that exists and you just take it and you find,
or you create a chart that fits in those same numbers. And then boom, pattern's done. You
(28:17):
don't have to grade it. You don't have to even really test it. You can just market it. That's
lame. I think that's a little, I don't like that. I don't like it either because you're basically
taking half of somebody of somebody else's work. Right. And that's the heavy load. Yeah. Like,
and I'm not, this is not to denigrate, like making color patterns. Um, there are a lot of fun,
(28:40):
like to try to play around with color charts and stuff. That's a lot of fun. That's the fun part
of making a color work sweater. The crappy part is doing all the grading and the stitch counts
and the different weights and you know, so on and so forth. And I feel like that's kind of taking
the cheap and dirty way out. I feel like I'm getting kind of snobbish when it comes to sweater
patterns too. And I'll tell you why, because I feel like I, so the Calliope doesn't bother me
(29:06):
because it's free. So I don't care. But like, for example, if I'm going to pay for a sweater
pattern at this point, you better give me darts. You better give me, uh, you better give me German
short rows. You better give me an ability to adjust the waist, the shoulder, the bust, all custom.
Like I am not paying for it unless you have legitimately went through and given me a lot
(29:29):
of fricking options because I have bought way too many patterns at this point for a garment
where all they change is the bust and they don't consider your cup size. They don't consider like
your waist. They don't consider your arms. And then like you make this thing and yeah, it fits
your chest. Great. But like, I can't get my arms through it because I have excess skin or I can't
(29:53):
like my waist, like it's blooming in my waist because I have a tinier waist than my bust or like,
it's just like, I'm, I'm a little snobby when it comes to sweater patterns at this point. And I
think it's honestly because I've tested a few now. I liked some of the ones I tested keyword. Um,
and I just feel like at this point, it's like almost like not saying that like other sweater
(30:19):
patterns should be free, but I'm not paying like Boko bucks. Yeah. Yeah. That's my personal choice.
I am not going to pay Boko bucks. And when I say Boko bucks, I mean like over $10 for a sweater
pattern that doesn't have an extensive amount of work done to it. Well, yeah, because if you're
spending the time and the money and the energy to make yourself custom clothes, you want them to
(30:42):
custom fit. And I think I think honestly, it's because I'm getting bougie with my own pattern.
So, and I'm not even doing garments. I'm doing accessories. And if my accessory, if I can make
enough options in my accessories, I feel like you can do it with other things too. Like take the
time. And if you're not going to take it to time, price it accordingly. Like, and that's fine. Like
you don't have to take the time. You don't have to make it. I don't think I, you don't have to make
(31:06):
it size inclusive. I don't, and I know that's a terrible thing. Oh, come after me. You, I will
support every size inclusive pattern that I see. I think it's really important, but if somebody
doesn't want to do it, that is their choice. I hope they price it that way. And I hope they deal
with the fact that there's people that are not going to buy it because it's not size inclusive,
but it's again, every designer has their own choice of how they're going to put out that
(31:30):
design in that pattern. And then you choose as a consumer based on how they're presenting. Okay.
Like this, I'm going to buy from this person because they do all this extra stuff that it is
size inclusive. It is this, it is that, or I'm our, I, Oh, I know this person's just going to
give me a chart for my mittens and like nothing else. So I'm not going to buy any further patterns
(31:52):
or, you know, like whatever. Like I think it's, well, I think to an extent you, you need to,
um, to own that as well. Um, we've gotten as, as, uh, dyers, we've had some feedback that people
wish we would offer more non-superwash. It's not our forte. I don't like that. It's something that
we have tried. We do have two, two non-superwash options. We don't enjoy it. Like we've tried it.
(32:16):
We really struggle with it. It's definitely not our forte and we're not, we don't hide behind that.
It's we've been very open with this is not something we enjoy doing. There are so many
wonderful yarn dyers that do that. And we do not, you know, if, if that is what you were looking
for, like, man, I can give you a list of people that I absolutely love that I would a hundred
(32:41):
percent support, but I'm not going to sit here and cry and be like, Oh, you know, we lost these people.
Like they don't want to shop from us because we don't, we don't use enough non-superwash. It's
like, that's our choice. They don't like that we use acid dyes. It's like, that's fine too. And that's
fair. That's a preference. Yup. So it, but it is, we're not going to be like, wow, well, that's awful.
(33:02):
You should like acid. And it's like, no, you don't have to. People are allowed to have preferences,
but you don't have to cater to them. Exactly. Well, and it's, but that's the thing. It's like,
I also, I don't have to cater, but I also don't have the right to complain. Yeah. You know what
I'm saying? Like it's, that's the ticket. We have made a decision and you have made a decision and
(33:22):
that's fine. But then it's, it's own that choice. Own the decision that you have made. Yep. Because
you don't get to tell the rest of the world how they have to behave. You can only choose how you
behave. And I think that, yeah. And I think that gets back to the whole like, you know,
is it ethical? Is it not? Is it whatever? I think we've established what illegal is, which is
basically just, just stealing and putting your name on it. Just straight up plagiarism. But like in
(33:47):
terms of being ethical or not, you're right. It's at that point, it's you're going to do what you're
going to do. And based on your own ethos, what is, you know, the answer is going to be based on what,
what's important to you. You have no right to tell other people what you're going to do to them.
Unless they're legitimately plagiarizing your stuff. Listen, if you don't, again, if you don't
(34:08):
see your head cut off, you're also making a t-shirt guys. It's existed. Okay. Like t-shirts are older
than everybody. No. And I think there is something also to be said for like color work motifs or,
you know, if somebody chooses a leaf motif, Oh God, the leaves. And you have a leaf motif. I mean,
there are, if I, if I put leaf motif into Ravelry, I'm going to get 10,000 patterns. Like,
(34:32):
you know, I think there's, but I mean, like, I think, I think maybe it's like, and also take a,
take a breather. And I think this is really, this is something that I have struggled with a lot is
take a breath, think. And one of the things that I tell my kids, because I teach politics and that
(34:52):
gets real contentious at times is try to remember or try to at least go into everything, not assuming
the worst out of the person that you feel a problem with. Try to go in with the, with imagining the
best of intentions. They didn't plagiarize unless, I mean, again, unless your head is literally
(35:14):
cropped up. But like, yeah, it's, it's like, okay. So maybe they also had the idea to do a leaf motif
sweater. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're plagiarizing. And I mean, granted, if they, if you
get pushback and they're like, hell yeah, I did steal it. Like, what are you going to do about it?
Yeah. Then you can be upset about it. But again, guys, knitting is so old and it's been around for
(35:35):
so long. There's only so many ways that you can put stitches together. There's, there's so much
that isn't. And I really do feel like going into every, every interaction, elbows up, ready to fight
and assuming that everyone out there is about to steal your product. It's just, I don't, I don't know.
I think that's going to cause more grief than it's going to heal. I feel like most people
(35:57):
don't care enough. I feel like it's there's a lot of isolation too. If you're going to go
as far as to steal, I mean, if you want my personal advice, I think if you're going to be a thief,
be a good thief, you know, like let's, let's look at it from the thief's point of view. Okay.
My D and D character, uh, really is listening to this right now. Okay. All right. Listen,
(36:21):
Raya. No, I'm actually being serious and I'm saying if you're going to be a thief, be a good
thief. And what I mean by that is if you're going to go through with, okay, I'm going to buy this
pattern. I'm going to like, be lazy. I'm not going to do any of this work. Then shoot. The work you
should put in is to make it look like you did it. Right. Like do the extra shift and increase,
(36:46):
like change the word somewhere. Like if you're going to go, if you're going to be lazy,
somebody else's picture, even if it doesn't make sense, if you're going to be lazy in the stealing,
okay. And not do the work there, you should do the work. So I'm making it not look,
it's just like when people take future thieves, it's just like when people take Chad GBT to write
(37:12):
an essay for school, right? Meg's going to love this. And then you take the essay and you're like,
okay, I'm not just going to copy paste it from Chad GBT. I'm going to like go in and like change
some words and like, you know, do this thing. I'm not going to feel bad about telling this story
because it's about a college student. She's an adult. So I don't feel bad. My favorite,
my favorite ever plagiarism story. It's my favorite. I was teaching college and I asked
(37:35):
my kids to write an essay about literally anything like to do with American history. Like they could
pick any topic and they had to connect it to American identity. Like how did this help us
become a country and form an identity? Somebody wrote theirs on the Boston Tea Party. I love this
story. It's a great story. And, and she definitely plagiarized it. And I could, I could tell because
(37:56):
you can, you can tell, especially when you've had a student all semester. But she did that ingenious
thing that kids do where they think they're being really slick. And unfortunately, Chad GBT, like,
they don't have to do this anymore because I can't just take a line and put it in Google and,
and there pops up the article. What she did was she took an article off Google and she
strategically changed words, but the word that she changed was, was tea. And she changed it to
(38:21):
Boston Beverage Party. The entire essay was the Boston Beverage Party. And I was like, oh my God,
the BBP guys, the BBP. That was my favorite. And, and it's, it was scandal. Oh my God.
And it literally took me like five minutes of sitting there and looking at it to be like,
(38:42):
oh my God, that's what she means by this. Like what are you saying? They're like,
what is she talking? What beverage? I was really confused. But yeah, like that's,
but I think honestly, I was thinking about that before when we were talking about like,
um, you know, notes and, um, and stitches, but it's the same with writing in that you,
(39:03):
unless you're Shakespeare, you're not making up words. But if you take an entire sentence
or an entire paragraph that somebody else wrote and you don't credit it, we all, I hope,
except that that is theft. Oh yes. Yeah. That that is dishonest. It's not your work. So
(39:23):
I should hold on to crafting as well. Hold on. Let me put an asterisk on my whole segment back
there. So my asterisk, yeah, this is going to be quote misquoted and then people are going to be
like, she's a thief. No. Um, so here's my asterisk is that entire segment was a joke and you really
shouldn't thief from people. I hope you understood the sarcasm everybody, but, uh, welcome to the
(39:48):
show. Oh my God. A plus plus. Oh God. No, I don't, I don't support thievery. I'm just saying if
you're going to be lazy, damn or Dan Dan. Yeah. Dan. Yeah. Dan. I think, I think it is one of
(40:10):
those things like, like with conscience of if it doesn't feel good, you probably shouldn't be doing
it. I agree. You know, if it do what you, what you do with your craft that this doesn't apply
to sociopaths, by the way, I know, I know, but they have no feelings, but if, if there is something
(40:30):
in the back of your head telling you this is not right, you should probably listen to that. Yeah.
To the little voice. Yeah. I'm just saying things these days are not unique in the knitting world.
Correct. Rarely, very rarely are things unique in the knitting world today. You can't copyright
(40:51):
your stitches, but you can copyright your patterns. Yes. And if you see a pattern and you like it,
you should pay somebody for it. If they put the work in for it and that's what they're asking for,
you should give them what they want, which if free is what they want, free is what they get.
Right. Right. Yeah. And you shouldn't steal. Don't be a thief. If it feels wrong, it probably is
(41:13):
wrong. I agree. That's it for this week's topic for additional content and opportunities to connect
with us, the cast, check out our website at part of my stash.com. Be sure to tune in next time
for more laughs, love, and llamas at part of my stash.
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