May 21, 2025 • 28 mins
Parenting Decoded welcomes McCall Gordon to tackle one of parenting’s toughest questions: Why won’t my kid sleep? Her book is aimed at parents of "livewires" — kids who are more alert, intense, and emotionally reactive than average, making traditional sleep advice ineffective.
McCall explains that temperament plays a huge role in sleep struggles — some kids just have a harder time winding down. These children are perceptive, persistent, and often lack typical “sleepy cues” like yawning. Instead, they need more support and a customized sleep strategy.
She encourages parents to stop blaming themselves. These kids aren’t “bad” sleepers — they’re wired differently. The solution? A gradual, step-by-step approach to bedtime routines, not the cold-turkey methods like “cry it out,” which often backfire for sensitive kids.
McCall’s key advice:
- Understand your child’s temperament
- Taper off bedtime habits gradually
- Use consistent patterns at bedtime and during night wakings
- Think of it like teaching a child to ride a bike — slowly let go while supporting them
She also emphasizes ruling out medical issues for frequent night wakings, especially in infants or kids who snore.
The bottom line: You’re not crazy, and it’s not your fault — you just need a different roadmap.
Link to the book on Amazon: Why Won't You Sleep?
Link to the Audible book: Why Won't You Sleep?
Email me at info@parentingdecoded.com or go to my website at www.parentingdecoded.com.
Have a blessed rest of your day!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mary Eschen (00:00):
Welcome to Parenting Decoded, a podcast for
practical approaches toparenting.
I'm Mary Eshin.
Today we're diving into aquestion that has haunted
parents since the dawn ofdiapers why won't you sleep?
Joining us today is aresearcher and certified bringer
of relief, mccall Gordon,author of the fantastic new book
(00:21):
why Won't you Sleep?
This isn't your typical just puton your child drowsy but awake,
kind of sleep advice.
Oh no, this book is for parentsof kids who treat bedtime like a
WWE Smackdown, who wake up thesecond you breathe wrong and who
make you question your lifechoices at two in the morning,
(00:41):
while Googling is coffee, a foodgroup.
Mccall brings research, empathyand just the right amount of
you're not crazy, your kid'sjust intense to the conversation
.
We'll talk about what makesthese little live wires harder
to settle, why conventionalsleep advice might be missing
the mark, and how you can stopblaming yourself for things you
(01:03):
never had control over in thefirst place.
So if you're sleep-deprived,delirious and currently
listening in the dark with oneAirPod in while sitting next to
your child's bed as they won'tsleep, this is for you.
Welcome, mccall, I'm so happyto have you on the show.
I can't wait to talk to youabout sleep and sleep
(01:25):
deprivation and what the heck todo when you have a kid that
just tires you out and you haveso many great ideas.
Tell me a little bit aboutLiveWires and what you do.
Macall Gordon (01:37):
Yeah, well, yeah, absolutely.
Because I always say thedividing line between kids who
sleep well and easily and thosewho don't is temperament.
Everyone has friends who havethose kids that just sleep and
everybody thinks it's becausethey've done some magical thing
or they've done some method thatworked great and like.
(01:58):
Then they always think what amI doing wrong?
And I always tell them it's notyou, it's you just have a
different kid, you have a harderchild, you have a harder,
steeper hill to climb.
And that's temperament.
Usually parents have a kid whocame into the world a little bit
(02:18):
more challenging.
Right, they are kids who aremore alert, they're more intense
, and that doesn't mean likenegatively I've got to come up
with a different word thanintense.
So it's usually they justeverything's a big deal Happy,
sad, surprised, everything is abig deal.
(02:38):
It's just the volume onfeelings is turned up.
Volume on feelings is turned up.
Let me I should just go throughthe things people say, because
that usually resonates more.
So people will say go zero to ahundred if I don't get to them
fast.
So big feelings that happenfast.
A bad case of FOMO.
So fear of missing out.
My kid will not take a napbecause she's afraid she'll miss
(03:01):
something.
Not easy to get to sleepbecause they don't seem like
they want to sleep.
Often needs to be bounced on ayoga ball to go to sleep, so
needs a lot of like help to goto sleep.
They don't just drift off likesome kids that I've heard about,
because I didn't have thesechildren.
Mary Eschen (03:20):
So yeah, I used to have to rock my older one to
sleep.
Yeah Well, yeah, like in thecar seat, we would just swing it
.
Oh, swinging like vigorous.
Macall Gordon (03:30):
Yeah, yeah, but with our arm, not in a swing.
Yeah for sure.
Yeah, yeah, you feel like acrazy person.
I've heard some stories.
Believe me, I had one familythat needed to like walk or jog,
even on a treadmill, like thebaby needed, like this massive
input to go to sleep.
Perceptive doesn't miss a thing.
(03:51):
They'll say, oh, she does notmiss a thing.
Persistent never gives up, ever, ever, ever.
And sometimes you see thesequalities from very, very, very
tiny babies.
I just talked to parents of anine-week-old nine weeks and
some of these qualities werealready showing up.
These are not things thatparents create in their kids.
(04:14):
These are qualities that happensometimes right away at birth.
Parents will already knowsomething's up.
Sleep problems do not go awayand often these parents have
problems not because theyhaven't tried stuff right.
These parents have tried stuffand it's just not working.
But nobody ever tells them hey,it's not your fault.
(04:37):
And that's kind of what I'mhoping this book really does for
them, is it says this is notyour fault, you just have a
different brand of kiddo thatneeds a different mindset and a
really different approach.
Mary Eschen (04:52):
Well, in reading the book, I was really happy to
see you and your co-author takethe time to talk about different
kinds of temperament too.
It's not just the kid that isoverly emotional.
There's kids that might not isoverly emotional.
There's all.
There's kids that might not beoverly emotional, but they're.
They're intense in a way oflike noticing everything and you
know, like you don't pull thatone type of intense kid live
(05:15):
wire, as you call them into onebucket there's lots of buckets
and it's so fun to have readlike Ooh yeah, what kind of
bucket is my kid and you?
have so many ideas of like.
Oh, that's my kid.
And it might be if they havemultiple kids, their kid could
be in a different section, orsomething like that.
Macall Gordon (05:33):
Oh heck yeah, yeah, in fact the book has a
downloadable workbook and inthere is a temperament quiz with
a map that I'm actually prettyproud of.
That's a circle with the traitson the outside of the circle.
So instead of a bucket which isa good word for it, but it's
like a shape, so you kind ofplot it so it looks like a shape
(05:54):
because your kid may not be sointense but maybe really say
observant.
So there are some kids that Icall outies.
They go out, they go out to theworld, right, they go toward
experiences, so probably moreextroverts.
Let's just say that there arekids who are intense, but they
(06:15):
are more probably introverted,they're more cautious, they
watch the world, they hang back,they're still intense, but
they're just intense in adifferent way.
Kids are still live wires, theyjust roll a little differently
and they all still need adifferent approach because
(06:36):
they're all still sensitive.
They have sensory processingsensitivities that really need
to be accounted for when itcomes to sleep, because all of
that impacts sleep, all of it itimpacts sleep dramatically and
I should say that when it comesto sleep, we have to think about
what it takes to fall asleep.
Right, I say I call it thesleep system, and what that
(06:59):
means is we have to know we'resleepy number one.
We have to feel sleepy, then wehave to be willing to feel that
feeling and turn away from theworld, and then we have to be
able to fall asleep.
Well, these kids who are sobusy number one and so into the
world, they don't get that memofrom the brain that they're
(07:19):
tired, they just don't.
I don't know if the signal isnot as strong or if they just
don't tune into the signal, butthey just do not have sleepy
signals.
They don't yawn, they don't rubtheir eyes.
Parents are waiting for thosesignals and they do not come.
(07:59):
I say 10 months.
I don't remember.
Actually, amnesia, I wouldwatch David Letterman come on
and go off.
Now, for all of you out therewho don't remember when David
Letterman came on, it was afterJohnny Carson, so I think it was
like she was not fussy, she wasnot cranky, she was going
strong.
And I felt crazy because Ithought this isn't how it's
supposed to be.
Something's really wrong withme.
I don't think I'm supposed tobe up at one o'clock in the
morning with a baby who is notsleepy.
(08:21):
So what I didn't know is thatshe had probably been a little
tired hours and hours and hoursbefore, but I missed the teeny
little window that she probablywas a little bit fatigued but
just didn't show it to me right.
So they don't get the memo thatthey're tired, they don't know
(08:44):
how to turn toward that feelingagain because they're so busy,
and then their sensorysensitivities or their
overtiredness also prevents themfrom easily falling asleep.
So all of that requires a lotmore help, a lot more vigilance
on parents' part and a lot moreknowledge, because you have to
know what to look for and how tonavigate all that.
(09:06):
So they just need a wholedifferent road map, honestly, to
help them navigate that trickypath to sleep, because other
kids will yawn, Other kids willgo and they'll lie down, they'll
go to sleep.
It's so easy, but it's just notfor these kids.
Mary Eschen (09:25):
Well, and most of the audience that listens to my
podcast.
They have like maybe atwo-year-old, but certainly more
like through five years old orwhatever, and not necessarily
newborns, but they're stillbeing driven crazy.
Their kids are wanting toco-sleep with them at night.
I remember sitting in my son'sroom when he was three and four
years old five years old andit's like he didn't want me to
leave until I was asleep andeverything.
(09:46):
And I loved how you pointed outlike it wasn't really helpful
and it's like it wasn't.
He is a grown individual andhe's fine.
Macall Gordon (09:54):
But I was like that's really hard, because.
Mary Eschen (09:56):
I just want some free time.
Macall Gordon (09:59):
I'm just going crazy.
Yeah.
Well, what happens to parentswith these kids is that you get
really thrown off, obviously forobvious reasons.
First of all, it is not whatyou expect, it is not what you
see other people experiencing,and it's way more exhausting.
I mean, that is just no lie.
(10:19):
Parents of these kids areworking way harder, way harder,
because it's just taking morethought, more self-examination,
more research, more everythingbecause it's just not like what
you thought it was going to be.
More everything because it'sjust not like what you thought
(10:40):
it was going to be.
Plus, these kids just reallykeep you on your toes really 24
hours a day, because, again,they're not sleeping right, so
you're working around the clockand there's generally more
meltdowns.
These kids just have a lot moredifficulty with regulation as
well.
So it's a lot Because they'retired?
Yeah, they're tired, but they'rea lot more.
They have a lot more emotional.
(11:01):
I call them live wires becausethey have a lot more emotional
current running through theirsystem.
Their little circuits blow alot more easily.
So parents are having to justmanage a lot.
Parents get wiped out and thenyou end up sort of giving in to
things simply because you'rewiped out.
(11:24):
And when they're three and fouryears old and they're also, I
have to say, these kids arequite bright.
These kids really understandhow to game the system Well and
you said they're so observant,they're so observant, I mean
bless their hearts.
They can see that when theirparents are weak.
Yeah, and we are weak becausewe're exhausted.
(11:46):
It really is a system whereliterally no one's at fault.
And listen, when I work withparents, the whole first part of
our meeting is me patching theparents back up, because they
really feel like roadkill.
They really feel like they havescrewed it all up and I have to
let them know they absolutelyhave not.
(12:08):
They have responded to the kidthey have and they have a hard.
They have a really challengingsituation because this kid is
smart and they have very bigfeelings.
So we have to get everybodypatched up.
So, with older kids who have a,you know, want the parent in
the room or parents lying withthem for an hour and a half, we
(12:30):
have to help the parents picksome battles.
And then I always say rein inthe shenanigans and lock it down
.
So we have everybody get a planand we start tapering and this
works.
By the way, this is a good tipwe're going to fold in a tip.
The tip for everyone is pickyour battles, but fight the ones
(12:52):
you pick and then taper offwhatever it is you're currently
doing in a gradual, methodicalway.
That is really sleep trainingin a nutshell.
You don't have to do coldturkey, which does not work for
these kids.
You don't have to leave theroom.
That does not work for thesekids.
(13:12):
But you can taper it off in agradual, methodical way.
They're not going to love it.
But if you're just tapering,we're gradually scaffolding
their ability to tolerate it.
So if you're lying down fullywith your body next to your
four-year-old, sit up in the bed.
They can handle that.
(13:34):
Then in a few days, sit next tothe bed.
They can handle that.
Let them know you're going todo it.
Don't surprise them, but justgradually pick that battle and
get going.
Just do it.
You know, we got to justgradually push them without
blowing anybody out of the water.
(13:54):
This is the problem with thecurrent sleep training situation
is the only option parents aregiven is to leave the room, and
that does not work for thesekids.
Generally, I will say generally, it doesn't work because what
you're doing is you're saying,oh, if you let them cry, they'll
figure it out.
These kids do not figure it out.
These kids go straight tohysterical and then they cannot.
They don't have the ability tocalm themselves down, right,
(14:18):
other mellow kids will go, willcry, cry, cry and then go.
Ok, whatever.
Mary Eschen (14:23):
And they'll go to sleep.
I'm tired.
Macall Gordon (14:26):
Yeah, it's not worth it.
Right, they'll do that.
These kids cannot do that.
They'll just keep going.
We know that.
Right, I'm sure there areparents listening who go yep,
tried it Three hours later,didn't work right.
Mary Eschen (14:39):
The other point that hit home for me was parents
who let their kids fall asleepwith them in the room and then
they leave.
We finally get a little hour ortwo on our own, and then at two
in the morning they wake up andthey're like where's mom and
dad?
And then they have a bigmeltdown in the middle of the
night.
I'm like, oh yeah, so if you dotrain them, meaning whatever we
(15:00):
are doing is training them likemom's going to stay in the room
in order for me to go to sleep,I become part of the training
of the pattern.
I just never had anybody pointthat out so obviously.
To me it's like oh, yeah, Imean, I'm sure we all know that
we were part of the pattern, but, like I don't have any choices.
Yeah, you can't ask Helps, movepeople towards like right.
(15:23):
There are some solutions.
Macall Gordon (15:24):
Well, in that, in the information that's out
there this is another sort ofthing I'm trying to change is
this the information that's outthere is so shamey, right, so
bad habits and sleep crutches,and it's just so.
The language is so terrible.
Look, it's just, it is just apattern.
It's just a pattern.
We can change patterns.
It's not a big deal.
(15:44):
But whatever you're doing atbedtime, that's the template for
how kids think sleep happens.
Mom is somebody's lying with meand I go to sleep.
So when I wake up, I needsomebody to be lying with me in
order to go back to sleep.
It's like a little.
I call it the breadcrumb trailto sleep.
That's how I get to sleep.
(16:05):
So you can't ask a kid to do inthe middle of the night what
they're not doing at bedtime.
That's why we say if you'regoing to sit up in the bed, then
when they wake up at night, gosit up in the bed.
Then.
If you're sitting beside thebed in the middle of the night,
go sit beside the bed Now.
Eventually, hopefully, you'llbe sitting out in the hallway
(16:28):
and then pretty soon you won'tsit there anymore.
It's a process, but it's.
My favorite analogy is it's likehow you would teach a kid to
ride a bike.
This is my favorite one.
We don't give a kid a bike andsay good luck, kid, I'll be in
the house, I can't help you, oryou'll never learn.
(16:48):
No, we first give them trainingwheels and then we take the
training wheels off and we holdon to the back of the bike for
dear life while they get theidea of pedaling and all that.
But we're not going to justhold on to the bike, because
then they'll never learn how tobalance.
So we start letting go a teenybit, so they get that feeling of
(17:09):
imbalance, oh my God.
And then we grab on again, andthen we let go for longer, and
then we let go for longer, andthen we let go, and then pretty
soon they're off and running.
That's exactly what sleep needsto be.
Exactly they can get the feel ofit, and then you you know, you
just say you can do it, you cando it, you can do it.
(17:44):
You can do it with yourpresence and your support, but
you let them do the work mostly.
Mary Eschen (17:46):
Yeah, yeah.
But I love that that you giveparents so many ideas about how
to set up the overall plan andhow to taper.
You know how to start withsomething small and build on it.
I just think it's just such agreat resource.
I haven't seen that explainedso well and I just think that
(18:08):
parents I was telling you aheadof time that I met I was giving
a seminar this weekend with adad who has two three-year-old
twins and he and his wife aregoing crazy and I swear he
bought the book on Amazon, whilewe were in class and but it's
just like.
I mean, he was living proof ofbeing exhausted.
Yeah, just exhausted and yeah,not knowing what to do there.
(18:29):
He's like I'm sleeping in theguy's room because yeah, but
it's like, oh, I don't know, Ijust yeah, yeah, no, it's bad.
Macall Gordon (18:36):
I've heard really awful.
But and let me also one otherlittle caveat.
There are lots of instanceswhere the problems are not
behavioral.
Let me just say that because Ido know, like if I have parents
of a baby, say a nine-month-old,and they're like, yeah, my
nine-month-old is waking every45 minutes, okay, folks, that is
(18:59):
not a behavioral problem.
Every 45 minutes, that is notbehavior.
Something's wrong, something'sphysically wrong with that baby.
Or if you have a kiddo, atoddler, who's snoring,
breathing through their mouth,things like sleepwalking awake
in the middle of the night forhours at a time.
(19:21):
There are certain issues thatare covered in the book, but
certain issues that are notbehavioral problems.
A behavioral problem is like mykid wants me to lie with them
as they fall asleep, and thenthey wake up in the middle of
the night and they come into ourroom.
Or they wake up in the middleof the night and I have to go
lie with them, but then they goright back to sleep.
Okay, that's behavior.
(19:42):
Problems that are like wayworse, way bigger don't respond
to behavioral approaches.
That's when we really have tostart looking at medical issues
obstructed breathing becausethat's yeah, that's not behavior
.
Mary Eschen (20:02):
Well, that's good to bring into the conversation.
Macall Gordon (20:05):
Yeah, no kid should be outside of a cold or
allergies.
Kids should not be snoring orbreathing through their mouth
when they sleep.
That's just a good caveatacross the board.
That's when you really shouldgo get them looked at by an ENT
for adenoids and tonsils.
Mary Eschen (20:22):
Yeah, or an allergist for allergy related
issues yeah, or an allergist forallergy related issues.
Macall Gordon (20:29):
Um, could be, could be.
But I go to an ent.
First it's snoring and mouthbreathing.
That happens quite a bit.
I mean there's, I can't eventell you.
And then I see a lot of kidswith restless leg syndrome.
If you have an older kid who'scomplaining that their legs hurt
and they're awake or its sleepproblem is just nightmarish, um
goodness, if you have a kidsomebody's listening right now
and your kid has a trulynightmarish Goodness.
If you have a kid, ifsomebody's listening right now
and your kid has a trulynightmarish sleep issue, please
(20:51):
contact me.
I will help you figure it.
Know which kind of specialistto work with.
Mary Eschen (20:57):
Yes, yes, yes yes, that's the hard part for parents
when I work with them on avarious you know number of
issues of like they haven't beenparents very long and like it's
never happened to me.
I didn't have that when I wasgrowing up Like what?
Macall Gordon (21:12):
where do I turn to?
And sometimes a pediatricianmight be helpful and sometimes
they're usually not, becausepediatricians get an average of
15 minutes of training on sleepand so more often than not they
will just say sleep train.
And sleep training is not theanswer for babies who are too
young, and it's just not theanswer for a lot of issues.
(21:36):
If you're not getting the rightanswers, if your gut is telling
you something else is thematter, yeah, feel free.
And especially, I have to say,with these intense kids, they're
a little like the princess inthe pea, you know, remember that
story where it was the princesson all the mattresses and it
was just a little pea that kepther up all night.
That's what these kids are like.
(21:57):
So it doesn't take a lot tothrow them off and sometimes a
little discomfort ear infections, reflux, eczema, huge.
Doesn't take a lot of physicaldiscomfort to throw these kids
way, way off, and you may needto really address the physical
symptoms before you can reallytouch behavior.
Mary Eschen (22:19):
Yeah, I have a few of my nieces who've had sleep
coaches and they are astoundedat how much difference it made
in their lives.
It's just like it's so coolthat you've been a sleep coach
for a long time before you wrotethis book.
Macall Gordon (22:36):
You have so much knowledge.
Mary Eschen (22:38):
It's just like how nice that somebody could guide
you through some steps that likeoh, if I have a really regular
schedule, you know like I can'tthrow my live wire off, because
if I throw my live wire off,it's off.
You know, like everything's off.
Macall Gordon (22:53):
Yeah, and at the same time I do.
You know, in the book I'mpretty clear that I don't
usually recommend sleep trainingbefore six months.
I really don't, because baby'sdevelopment is so fluid, there's
really not a lot of goodresearch on sleep training
before six months and also, youreally don't have to do anything
before six months.
There's a lot of books outthere that recommend all this
(23:16):
strenuous work with very youngbabies and it's just really not
necessary or recommended sopeople can really take a breath.
People are stressed about itand you really don't have to
stress out.
There's a lot of time.
Mary Eschen (23:35):
There's a lot of time, yeah, well, and in my work
that I do, I said most of theparents are they have a
two-year-old to you know all theway through high school and
they haven't set the patternslike they would have maybe, as
they were younger.
And a lot of it has to do withjust not having exposure to what
(23:56):
great resources there are outthere.
Macall Gordon (23:58):
Yeah, yeah, and at the same time, I think too,
though, that too muchinformation also can undercut
their confidence in themselves.
Right, and I think that parentsespecially in those first few
months, parents are soinformation driven that they
don't get to take the time to go.
What do I think is the rightthing to do?
What if I try this, what if Itry that?
(24:20):
And they really get so worriedthey're going to screw up their
baby.
And it's like it's because Italked to a lot of brand new
parents and just telling themlike hey, you have time to
figure yourself out, to figureout your baby.
You're not going to ruin yourbaby by just saying, hey, I
wonder, if I try a nap now, whatwill that do?
What if I hold my baby this way?
(24:41):
You know it's okay, parentingroad is really long.
Mary Eschen (24:45):
Don't blow yourself out now, yeah.
Well and you probably encouragethem, like sometimes you set a
pattern that you might not likedoing forever.
Macall Gordon (24:58):
Yeah, and you can change it.
That's the great thing.
You can always change it.
Nothing is set in stone.
If you make a mistake, you canalways change course.
It's really that's whatparenting is all about Lately.
My only big advice is don't usechat GPT for parenting advice.
Mary Eschen (25:18):
Yikes, yikes, can you imagine what's going to
happen 20 years from now?
Macall Gordon (25:23):
Everyone will just ask Don't use chat GPT,
email me you gave us one tipabout tapering things.
Mary Eschen (25:32):
What other tips?
Macall Gordon (25:33):
do you have Great .
So the other one with thesekids is I think I sort of
quickly mentioned it before butdon't wait for them to look
tired People.
Sort of rest on this idea oflike tired people.
Sort of rest on this idea oflike, oh, my kid is just low
sleep needs.
Yeah, no, maybe, but don't,don't rest on that.
These kids tend to power righton through, kind of get a get a
(25:56):
sense of what a wake window isfor your child, especially the
younger ones, and start with thelower end, because these kids
get overtired very easily andthen they're on a second wind
and then you're just toast.
So, really getting them enoughsleep during the day and early
(26:17):
bedtime, just don't wait forthem to look sleepy, because
they never, ever, ever, everwill, so that sometimes can just
be magic will, so thatsometimes can just be magic.
Early bedtime, enough sleep.
Taper things off.
Those were my big ones.
And pick your battles.
Yeah, consistency, consistency,consistency.
(26:39):
And all that means is don'tjust try something once.
Parents get so shell-shocked.
They try something once andthen they go oh, that's not
working, let me try this.
Oh, that's not working, let metry this, that's not working.
Don't you got to try something.
Know that they're going to hateit the first time you do it,
that's okay.
Try it again, see if it's anybetter.
(27:02):
Maybe try it again, give itthree times and really track Did
it get at all better before youreally ditch it?
People expect something to workthe first time they try it and
that is just not.
That's not how it happens.
So pick something and reallyreally do it consistently for a
(27:23):
few times and track yourprogress.
Yeah.
Mary Eschen (27:27):
And I think in your workbook you have a tracker.
Macall Gordon (27:30):
I do yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Mary Eschen (27:32):
You have a lot of great resources.
And one of the things we weretalking about before we started
was there's an audio version ofyour book.
Macall Gordon (27:39):
Yes, yes, on Audible, so you can listen to it
as you sit in the dark waitingfor your child to go to sleep.
Exactly.
Mary Eschen (27:46):
Exactly, exactly, because that poor young dad I
met, I'm going like when will heand his wife ever have time to
sit reading a book?
Macall Gordon (27:53):
It was hard enough for me, and I don't even
have kids.
Mary Eschen (27:54):
No, I know Like making myself sit and read a
book, so that's just so hopeful,that and it's in your voice,
I'm assuming- it is, I did it.
It is, I did it.
Yes, excellent, excellent, yeah, well, mccall, thank you for
joining me.
Macall Gordon (28:09):
I really appreciate your advice.
Mary Eschen (28:10):
I love your book and I will put the links to it
in the show notes, as well as tothe Audible as well.
Macall Gordon (28:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, great, thank you so much for
being with me.
Oh, such a pleasure.
It was great, thank you.
Mary Eschen (28:22):
All right.
Thanks, audience.
We will be back next time.
Have a blessed rest of your day.
Welcome to Parenting Decoded, a podcast for
practical approaches toparenting.
I'm Mary Eshin.
Today we're diving into aquestion that has haunted
parents since the dawn ofdiapers why won't you sleep?
Joining us today is aresearcher and certified bringer
of relief, mccall Gordon,author of the fantastic new book
(00:21):
why Won't you Sleep?
This isn't your typical just puton your child drowsy but awake,
kind of sleep advice.
Oh no, this book is for parentsof kids who treat bedtime like a
WWE Smackdown, who wake up thesecond you breathe wrong and who
make you question your lifechoices at two in the morning,
(00:41):
while Googling is coffee, a foodgroup.
Mccall brings research, empathyand just the right amount of
you're not crazy, your kid'sjust intense to the conversation
.
We'll talk about what makesthese little live wires harder
to settle, why conventionalsleep advice might be missing
the mark, and how you can stopblaming yourself for things you
(01:03):
never had control over in thefirst place.
So if you're sleep-deprived,delirious and currently
listening in the dark with oneAirPod in while sitting next to
your child's bed as they won'tsleep, this is for you.
Welcome, mccall, I'm so happyto have you on the show.
I can't wait to talk to youabout sleep and sleep
(01:25):
deprivation and what the heck todo when you have a kid that
just tires you out and you haveso many great ideas.
Tell me a little bit aboutLiveWires and what you do.
Macall Gordon (01:37):
Yeah, well, yeah, absolutely.
Because I always say thedividing line between kids who
sleep well and easily and thosewho don't is temperament.
Everyone has friends who havethose kids that just sleep and
everybody thinks it's becausethey've done some magical thing
or they've done some method thatworked great and like.
(01:58):
Then they always think what amI doing wrong?
And I always tell them it's notyou, it's you just have a
different kid, you have a harderchild, you have a harder,
steeper hill to climb.
And that's temperament.
Usually parents have a kid whocame into the world a little bit
(02:18):
more challenging.
Right, they are kids who aremore alert, they're more intense
, and that doesn't mean likenegatively I've got to come up
with a different word thanintense.
So it's usually they justeverything's a big deal Happy,
sad, surprised, everything is abig deal.
(02:38):
It's just the volume onfeelings is turned up.
Volume on feelings is turned up.
Let me I should just go throughthe things people say, because
that usually resonates more.
So people will say go zero to ahundred if I don't get to them
fast.
So big feelings that happenfast.
A bad case of FOMO.
So fear of missing out.
My kid will not take a napbecause she's afraid she'll miss
(03:01):
something.
Not easy to get to sleepbecause they don't seem like
they want to sleep.
Often needs to be bounced on ayoga ball to go to sleep, so
needs a lot of like help to goto sleep.
They don't just drift off likesome kids that I've heard about,
because I didn't have thesechildren.
Mary Eschen (03:20):
So yeah, I used to have to rock my older one to
sleep.
Yeah Well, yeah, like in thecar seat, we would just swing it
.
Oh, swinging like vigorous.
Macall Gordon (03:30):
Yeah, yeah, but with our arm, not in a swing.
Yeah for sure.
Yeah, yeah, you feel like acrazy person.
I've heard some stories.
Believe me, I had one familythat needed to like walk or jog,
even on a treadmill, like thebaby needed, like this massive
input to go to sleep.
Perceptive doesn't miss a thing.
(03:51):
They'll say, oh, she does notmiss a thing.
Persistent never gives up, ever, ever, ever.
And sometimes you see thesequalities from very, very, very
tiny babies.
I just talked to parents of anine-week-old nine weeks and
some of these qualities werealready showing up.
These are not things thatparents create in their kids.
(04:14):
These are qualities that happensometimes right away at birth.
Parents will already knowsomething's up.
Sleep problems do not go awayand often these parents have
problems not because theyhaven't tried stuff right.
These parents have tried stuffand it's just not working.
But nobody ever tells them hey,it's not your fault.
(04:37):
And that's kind of what I'mhoping this book really does for
them, is it says this is notyour fault, you just have a
different brand of kiddo thatneeds a different mindset and a
really different approach.
Mary Eschen (04:52):
Well, in reading the book, I was really happy to
see you and your co-author takethe time to talk about different
kinds of temperament too.
It's not just the kid that isoverly emotional.
There's kids that might not isoverly emotional.
There's all.
There's kids that might not beoverly emotional, but they're.
They're intense in a way oflike noticing everything and you
know, like you don't pull thatone type of intense kid live
(05:15):
wire, as you call them into onebucket there's lots of buckets
and it's so fun to have readlike Ooh yeah, what kind of
bucket is my kid and you?
have so many ideas of like.
Oh, that's my kid.
And it might be if they havemultiple kids, their kid could
be in a different section, orsomething like that.
Macall Gordon (05:33):
Oh heck yeah, yeah, in fact the book has a
downloadable workbook and inthere is a temperament quiz with
a map that I'm actually prettyproud of.
That's a circle with the traitson the outside of the circle.
So instead of a bucket which isa good word for it, but it's
like a shape, so you kind ofplot it so it looks like a shape
(05:54):
because your kid may not be sointense but maybe really say
observant.
So there are some kids that Icall outies.
They go out, they go out to theworld, right, they go toward
experiences, so probably moreextroverts.
Let's just say that there arekids who are intense, but they
(06:15):
are more probably introverted,they're more cautious, they
watch the world, they hang back,they're still intense, but
they're just intense in adifferent way.
Kids are still live wires, theyjust roll a little differently
and they all still need adifferent approach because
(06:36):
they're all still sensitive.
They have sensory processingsensitivities that really need
to be accounted for when itcomes to sleep, because all of
that impacts sleep, all of it itimpacts sleep dramatically and
I should say that when it comesto sleep, we have to think about
what it takes to fall asleep.
Right, I say I call it thesleep system, and what that
(06:59):
means is we have to know we'resleepy number one.
We have to feel sleepy, then wehave to be willing to feel that
feeling and turn away from theworld, and then we have to be
able to fall asleep.
Well, these kids who are sobusy number one and so into the
world, they don't get that memofrom the brain that they're
(07:19):
tired, they just don't.
I don't know if the signal isnot as strong or if they just
don't tune into the signal, butthey just do not have sleepy
signals.
They don't yawn, they don't rubtheir eyes.
Parents are waiting for thosesignals and they do not come.
(07:59):
I say 10 months.
I don't remember.
Actually, amnesia, I wouldwatch David Letterman come on
and go off.
Now, for all of you out therewho don't remember when David
Letterman came on, it was afterJohnny Carson, so I think it was
like she was not fussy, she wasnot cranky, she was going
strong.
And I felt crazy because Ithought this isn't how it's
supposed to be.
Something's really wrong withme.
I don't think I'm supposed tobe up at one o'clock in the
morning with a baby who is notsleepy.
(08:21):
So what I didn't know is thatshe had probably been a little
tired hours and hours and hoursbefore, but I missed the teeny
little window that she probablywas a little bit fatigued but
just didn't show it to me right.
So they don't get the memo thatthey're tired, they don't know
(08:44):
how to turn toward that feelingagain because they're so busy,
and then their sensorysensitivities or their
overtiredness also prevents themfrom easily falling asleep.
So all of that requires a lotmore help, a lot more vigilance
on parents' part and a lot moreknowledge, because you have to
know what to look for and how tonavigate all that.
(09:06):
So they just need a wholedifferent road map, honestly, to
help them navigate that trickypath to sleep, because other
kids will yawn, Other kids willgo and they'll lie down, they'll
go to sleep.
It's so easy, but it's just notfor these kids.
Mary Eschen (09:25):
Well, and most of the audience that listens to my
podcast.
They have like maybe atwo-year-old, but certainly more
like through five years old orwhatever, and not necessarily
newborns, but they're stillbeing driven crazy.
Their kids are wanting toco-sleep with them at night.
I remember sitting in my son'sroom when he was three and four
years old five years old andit's like he didn't want me to
leave until I was asleep andeverything.
(09:46):
And I loved how you pointed outlike it wasn't really helpful
and it's like it wasn't.
He is a grown individual andhe's fine.
Macall Gordon (09:54):
But I was like that's really hard, because.
Mary Eschen (09:56):
I just want some free time.
Macall Gordon (09:59):
I'm just going crazy.
Yeah.
Well, what happens to parentswith these kids is that you get
really thrown off, obviously forobvious reasons.
First of all, it is not whatyou expect, it is not what you
see other people experiencing,and it's way more exhausting.
I mean, that is just no lie.
(10:19):
Parents of these kids areworking way harder, way harder,
because it's just taking morethought, more self-examination,
more research, more everythingbecause it's just not like what
you thought it was going to be.
More everything because it'sjust not like what you thought
(10:40):
it was going to be.
Plus, these kids just reallykeep you on your toes really 24
hours a day, because, again,they're not sleeping right, so
you're working around the clockand there's generally more
meltdowns.
These kids just have a lot moredifficulty with regulation as
well.
So it's a lot Because they'retired?
Yeah, they're tired, but they'rea lot more.
They have a lot more emotional.
(11:01):
I call them live wires becausethey have a lot more emotional
current running through theirsystem.
Their little circuits blow alot more easily.
So parents are having to justmanage a lot.
Parents get wiped out and thenyou end up sort of giving in to
things simply because you'rewiped out.
(11:24):
And when they're three and fouryears old and they're also, I
have to say, these kids arequite bright.
These kids really understandhow to game the system Well and
you said they're so observant,they're so observant, I mean
bless their hearts.
They can see that when theirparents are weak.
Yeah, and we are weak becausewe're exhausted.
(11:46):
It really is a system whereliterally no one's at fault.
And listen, when I work withparents, the whole first part of
our meeting is me patching theparents back up, because they
really feel like roadkill.
They really feel like they havescrewed it all up and I have to
let them know they absolutelyhave not.
(12:08):
They have responded to the kidthey have and they have a hard.
They have a really challengingsituation because this kid is
smart and they have very bigfeelings.
So we have to get everybodypatched up.
So, with older kids who have a,you know, want the parent in
the room or parents lying withthem for an hour and a half, we
(12:30):
have to help the parents picksome battles.
And then I always say rein inthe shenanigans and lock it down
.
So we have everybody get a planand we start tapering and this
works.
By the way, this is a good tipwe're going to fold in a tip.
The tip for everyone is pickyour battles, but fight the ones
(12:52):
you pick and then taper offwhatever it is you're currently
doing in a gradual, methodicalway.
That is really sleep trainingin a nutshell.
You don't have to do coldturkey, which does not work for
these kids.
You don't have to leave theroom.
That does not work for thesekids.
(13:12):
But you can taper it off in agradual, methodical way.
They're not going to love it.
But if you're just tapering,we're gradually scaffolding
their ability to tolerate it.
So if you're lying down fullywith your body next to your
four-year-old, sit up in the bed.
They can handle that.
(13:34):
Then in a few days, sit next tothe bed.
They can handle that.
Let them know you're going todo it.
Don't surprise them, but justgradually pick that battle and
get going.
Just do it.
You know, we got to justgradually push them without
blowing anybody out of the water.
(13:54):
This is the problem with thecurrent sleep training situation
is the only option parents aregiven is to leave the room, and
that does not work for thesekids.
Generally, I will say generally, it doesn't work because what
you're doing is you're saying,oh, if you let them cry, they'll
figure it out.
These kids do not figure it out.
These kids go straight tohysterical and then they cannot.
They don't have the ability tocalm themselves down, right,
(14:18):
other mellow kids will go, willcry, cry, cry and then go.
Ok, whatever.
Mary Eschen (14:23):
And they'll go to sleep.
I'm tired.
Macall Gordon (14:26):
Yeah, it's not worth it.
Right, they'll do that.
These kids cannot do that.
They'll just keep going.
We know that.
Right, I'm sure there areparents listening who go yep,
tried it Three hours later,didn't work right.
Mary Eschen (14:39):
The other point that hit home for me was parents
who let their kids fall asleepwith them in the room and then
they leave.
We finally get a little hour ortwo on our own, and then at two
in the morning they wake up andthey're like where's mom and
dad?
And then they have a bigmeltdown in the middle of the
night.
I'm like, oh yeah, so if you dotrain them, meaning whatever we
(15:00):
are doing is training them likemom's going to stay in the room
in order for me to go to sleep,I become part of the training
of the pattern.
I just never had anybody pointthat out so obviously.
To me it's like oh, yeah, Imean, I'm sure we all know that
we were part of the pattern, but, like I don't have any choices.
Yeah, you can't ask Helps, movepeople towards like right.
(15:23):
There are some solutions.
Macall Gordon (15:24):
Well, in that, in the information that's out
there this is another sort ofthing I'm trying to change is
this the information that's outthere is so shamey, right, so
bad habits and sleep crutches,and it's just so.
The language is so terrible.
Look, it's just, it is just apattern.
It's just a pattern.
We can change patterns.
It's not a big deal.
(15:44):
But whatever you're doing atbedtime, that's the template for
how kids think sleep happens.
Mom is somebody's lying with meand I go to sleep.
So when I wake up, I needsomebody to be lying with me in
order to go back to sleep.
It's like a little.
I call it the breadcrumb trailto sleep.
That's how I get to sleep.
(16:05):
So you can't ask a kid to do inthe middle of the night what
they're not doing at bedtime.
That's why we say if you'regoing to sit up in the bed, then
when they wake up at night, gosit up in the bed.
Then.
If you're sitting beside thebed in the middle of the night,
go sit beside the bed Now.
Eventually, hopefully, you'llbe sitting out in the hallway
(16:28):
and then pretty soon you won'tsit there anymore.
It's a process, but it's.
My favorite analogy is it's likehow you would teach a kid to
ride a bike.
This is my favorite one.
We don't give a kid a bike andsay good luck, kid, I'll be in
the house, I can't help you, oryou'll never learn.
(16:48):
No, we first give them trainingwheels and then we take the
training wheels off and we holdon to the back of the bike for
dear life while they get theidea of pedaling and all that.
But we're not going to justhold on to the bike, because
then they'll never learn how tobalance.
So we start letting go a teenybit, so they get that feeling of
(17:09):
imbalance, oh my God.
And then we grab on again, andthen we let go for longer, and
then we let go for longer, andthen we let go, and then pretty
soon they're off and running.
That's exactly what sleep needsto be.
Exactly they can get the feel ofit, and then you you know, you
just say you can do it, you cando it, you can do it.
(17:44):
You can do it with yourpresence and your support, but
you let them do the work mostly.
Mary Eschen (17:46):
Yeah, yeah.
But I love that that you giveparents so many ideas about how
to set up the overall plan andhow to taper.
You know how to start withsomething small and build on it.
I just think it's just such agreat resource.
I haven't seen that explainedso well and I just think that
(18:08):
parents I was telling you aheadof time that I met I was giving
a seminar this weekend with adad who has two three-year-old
twins and he and his wife aregoing crazy and I swear he
bought the book on Amazon, whilewe were in class and but it's
just like.
I mean, he was living proof ofbeing exhausted.
Yeah, just exhausted and yeah,not knowing what to do there.
(18:29):
He's like I'm sleeping in theguy's room because yeah, but
it's like, oh, I don't know, Ijust yeah, yeah, no, it's bad.
Macall Gordon (18:36):
I've heard really awful.
But and let me also one otherlittle caveat.
There are lots of instanceswhere the problems are not
behavioral.
Let me just say that because Ido know, like if I have parents
of a baby, say a nine-month-old,and they're like, yeah, my
nine-month-old is waking every45 minutes, okay, folks, that is
(18:59):
not a behavioral problem.
Every 45 minutes, that is notbehavior.
Something's wrong, something'sphysically wrong with that baby.
Or if you have a kiddo, atoddler, who's snoring,
breathing through their mouth,things like sleepwalking awake
in the middle of the night forhours at a time.
(19:21):
There are certain issues thatare covered in the book, but
certain issues that are notbehavioral problems.
A behavioral problem is like mykid wants me to lie with them
as they fall asleep, and thenthey wake up in the middle of
the night and they come into ourroom.
Or they wake up in the middleof the night and I have to go
lie with them, but then they goright back to sleep.
Okay, that's behavior.
(19:42):
Problems that are like wayworse, way bigger don't respond
to behavioral approaches.
That's when we really have tostart looking at medical issues
obstructed breathing becausethat's yeah, that's not behavior
.
Mary Eschen (20:02):
Well, that's good to bring into the conversation.
Macall Gordon (20:05):
Yeah, no kid should be outside of a cold or
allergies.
Kids should not be snoring orbreathing through their mouth
when they sleep.
That's just a good caveatacross the board.
That's when you really shouldgo get them looked at by an ENT
for adenoids and tonsils.
Mary Eschen (20:22):
Yeah, or an allergist for allergy related
issues yeah, or an allergist forallergy related issues.
Macall Gordon (20:29):
Um, could be, could be.
But I go to an ent.
First it's snoring and mouthbreathing.
That happens quite a bit.
I mean there's, I can't eventell you.
And then I see a lot of kidswith restless leg syndrome.
If you have an older kid who'scomplaining that their legs hurt
and they're awake or its sleepproblem is just nightmarish, um
goodness, if you have a kidsomebody's listening right now
and your kid has a trulynightmarish Goodness.
If you have a kid, ifsomebody's listening right now
and your kid has a trulynightmarish sleep issue, please
(20:51):
contact me.
I will help you figure it.
Know which kind of specialistto work with.
Mary Eschen (20:57):
Yes, yes, yes yes, that's the hard part for parents
when I work with them on avarious you know number of
issues of like they haven't beenparents very long and like it's
never happened to me.
I didn't have that when I wasgrowing up Like what?
Macall Gordon (21:12):
where do I turn to?
And sometimes a pediatricianmight be helpful and sometimes
they're usually not, becausepediatricians get an average of
15 minutes of training on sleepand so more often than not they
will just say sleep train.
And sleep training is not theanswer for babies who are too
young, and it's just not theanswer for a lot of issues.
(21:36):
If you're not getting the rightanswers, if your gut is telling
you something else is thematter, yeah, feel free.
And especially, I have to say,with these intense kids, they're
a little like the princess inthe pea, you know, remember that
story where it was the princesson all the mattresses and it
was just a little pea that kepther up all night.
That's what these kids are like.
(21:57):
So it doesn't take a lot tothrow them off and sometimes a
little discomfort ear infections, reflux, eczema, huge.
Doesn't take a lot of physicaldiscomfort to throw these kids
way, way off, and you may needto really address the physical
symptoms before you can reallytouch behavior.
Mary Eschen (22:19):
Yeah, I have a few of my nieces who've had sleep
coaches and they are astoundedat how much difference it made
in their lives.
It's just like it's so coolthat you've been a sleep coach
for a long time before you wrotethis book.
Macall Gordon (22:36):
You have so much knowledge.
Mary Eschen (22:38):
It's just like how nice that somebody could guide
you through some steps that likeoh, if I have a really regular
schedule, you know like I can'tthrow my live wire off, because
if I throw my live wire off,it's off.
You know, like everything's off.
Macall Gordon (22:53):
Yeah, and at the same time I do.
You know, in the book I'mpretty clear that I don't
usually recommend sleep trainingbefore six months.
I really don't, because baby'sdevelopment is so fluid, there's
really not a lot of goodresearch on sleep training
before six months and also, youreally don't have to do anything
before six months.
There's a lot of books outthere that recommend all this
(23:16):
strenuous work with very youngbabies and it's just really not
necessary or recommended sopeople can really take a breath.
People are stressed about itand you really don't have to
stress out.
There's a lot of time.
Mary Eschen (23:35):
There's a lot of time, yeah, well, and in my work
that I do, I said most of theparents are they have a
two-year-old to you know all theway through high school and
they haven't set the patternslike they would have maybe, as
they were younger.
And a lot of it has to do withjust not having exposure to what
(23:56):
great resources there are outthere.
Macall Gordon (23:58):
Yeah, yeah, and at the same time, I think too,
though, that too muchinformation also can undercut
their confidence in themselves.
Right, and I think that parentsespecially in those first few
months, parents are soinformation driven that they
don't get to take the time to go.
What do I think is the rightthing to do?
What if I try this, what if Itry that?
(24:20):
And they really get so worriedthey're going to screw up their
baby.
And it's like it's because Italked to a lot of brand new
parents and just telling themlike hey, you have time to
figure yourself out, to figureout your baby.
You're not going to ruin yourbaby by just saying, hey, I
wonder, if I try a nap now, whatwill that do?
What if I hold my baby this way?
(24:41):
You know it's okay, parentingroad is really long.
Mary Eschen (24:45):
Don't blow yourself out now, yeah.
Well and you probably encouragethem, like sometimes you set a
pattern that you might not likedoing forever.
Macall Gordon (24:58):
Yeah, and you can change it.
That's the great thing.
You can always change it.
Nothing is set in stone.
If you make a mistake, you canalways change course.
It's really that's whatparenting is all about Lately.
My only big advice is don't usechat GPT for parenting advice.
Mary Eschen (25:18):
Yikes, yikes, can you imagine what's going to
happen 20 years from now?
Macall Gordon (25:23):
Everyone will just ask Don't use chat GPT,
email me you gave us one tipabout tapering things.
Mary Eschen (25:32):
What other tips?
Macall Gordon (25:33):
do you have Great .
So the other one with thesekids is I think I sort of
quickly mentioned it before butdon't wait for them to look
tired People.
Sort of rest on this idea oflike tired people.
Sort of rest on this idea oflike, oh, my kid is just low
sleep needs.
Yeah, no, maybe, but don't,don't rest on that.
These kids tend to power righton through, kind of get a get a
(25:56):
sense of what a wake window isfor your child, especially the
younger ones, and start with thelower end, because these kids
get overtired very easily andthen they're on a second wind
and then you're just toast.
So, really getting them enoughsleep during the day and early
(26:17):
bedtime, just don't wait forthem to look sleepy, because
they never, ever, ever, everwill, so that sometimes can just
be magic will, so thatsometimes can just be magic.
Early bedtime, enough sleep.
Taper things off.
Those were my big ones.
And pick your battles.
Yeah, consistency, consistency,consistency.
(26:39):
And all that means is don'tjust try something once.
Parents get so shell-shocked.
They try something once andthen they go oh, that's not
working, let me try this.
Oh, that's not working, let metry this, that's not working.
Don't you got to try something.
Know that they're going to hateit the first time you do it,
that's okay.
Try it again, see if it's anybetter.
(27:02):
Maybe try it again, give itthree times and really track Did
it get at all better before youreally ditch it?
People expect something to workthe first time they try it and
that is just not.
That's not how it happens.
So pick something and reallyreally do it consistently for a
(27:23):
few times and track yourprogress.
Yeah.
Mary Eschen (27:27):
And I think in your workbook you have a tracker.
Macall Gordon (27:30):
I do yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Mary Eschen (27:32):
You have a lot of great resources.
And one of the things we weretalking about before we started
was there's an audio version ofyour book.
Macall Gordon (27:39):
Yes, yes, on Audible, so you can listen to it
as you sit in the dark waitingfor your child to go to sleep.
Exactly.
Mary Eschen (27:46):
Exactly, exactly, because that poor young dad I
met, I'm going like when will heand his wife ever have time to
sit reading a book?
Macall Gordon (27:53):
It was hard enough for me, and I don't even
have kids.
Mary Eschen (27:54):
No, I know Like making myself sit and read a
book, so that's just so hopeful,that and it's in your voice,
I'm assuming- it is, I did it.
It is, I did it.
Yes, excellent, excellent, yeah, well, mccall, thank you for
joining me.
Macall Gordon (28:09):
I really appreciate your advice.
Mary Eschen (28:10):
I love your book and I will put the links to it
in the show notes, as well as tothe Audible as well.
Macall Gordon (28:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, great, thank you so much for
being with me.
Oh, such a pleasure.
It was great, thank you.
Mary Eschen (28:22):
All right.
Thanks, audience.
We will be back next time.
Have a blessed rest of your day.
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