The COVID vaccine for kids

Episode Transcript

Molly OShea (00:01):
Welcome to parenting with the pros and
cons. I'm one of the pros. I'mDr. Molly OShea. And I'm the
other Pro. I'm CinziaFilipovski. And today we're
going to be talking about theCOVID vaccine for kids, the pros
and the cons. First, a littlebit about us. I'm Dr. Molly, and

(00:22):
I'm a pediatrician who has beenin practice for almost 30 years.
I've also been an active menmember of the American Academy
of Pediatrics, both locally, andat the national level. as both a
journal editor and a speaker,I've raised four kids who are in
their 20s. Now, one with specialneeds. I love talking to
parents, and about theirparenting pros and cons.

Cinzia Filipovski (00:47):
And I'm Cinzia Filiopovski. I'm a
certified positive disciplineeducator, a full time working
mother of five year old twinboys. And I own a medical office
management company, as well asseveral other businesses. You
could say I'm a pretty busy mom,I'm balancing my life and like
you, I'm parenting with the prosand cons of life. So let's get

(01:09):
into it. Today, let's talk aboutall of our concerns and myths
and realities around the COVIDvaccine. So today is April 21
2021. I want to preface thiswhole podcast with that date
because this is an evolvingsubject. And information is just

(01:31):
coming up every day. And we justwant to make sure that this
infant, you understand that thisinformation is current as of
today's date. So Johnson andJohnson vaccine, as we all know,
the CDC put a pause on it. Solet's talk about what that
means. You know, we're we've allheard about it in the news,
we've heard about how it's couldcause blood clots and people.

(01:54):
And that's a concern, right? Sowe want to we want to talk about
that and talk about the realityof what that means. So Dr.
Molly, can you talk to us alittle bit about, you know,
blood clots in Johnson andJohnson and the reality of it?

Unknown (02:09):
Yeah, so the j&j vaccine, which just took so that
we're all on the same page, thatwas the last vaccine that was
approved for use by the FDA.
It's the one that's approved forpeople 18 and older, and it's
the one shot and you're donevaccine. So the concern that has
arisen with the j&j vaccine isthat six people, since the

(02:31):
vaccine has been given to 7million people have had problems
with blood clots. One persondied as a result of those blood
clots.
That's a pretty was right there.
Yeah. Yeah, mine. Sure. Let'stalk about those numbers.
Because, you know, we'rewatching this vaccine, all of

(02:53):
the vaccines so carefully. Soall of these issues that come up
seem so alarming to us. Butlet's talk about six people in 7
million. And what that comparesto I saw some other statistics
that I just wanted to throw inthere, I saw that birth control
pills, for example, can cause500 to 1200 cases of blood costs
in 1 million. So that's 500 to1200 versus six, or one 1

(03:18):
million, I should say, Sorry,one in 1 million. So that's what
that equates to the Johnson andJohnson vaccine. So to compare
that the other statistic I sawwas COVID. itself, the illness
causes 165,000 cases in 1million of blood clots. So

(03:39):
that's a 16 and a half percentchance. So just putting that in
perspective, I don't know if youwant to elaborate a little bit
more on that, so that we canreally just understand, you
know, how careful the CDC isbeing with these vaccines at
this time?
Yeah, I love that, that we canput it in perspective, I think

(04:01):
sometimes when, when we do hearabout risk, one of the things
that happens is we really blowit out of proportion. And we get
super worried about somethingthat where the risk is very,
very small. I think there's beenso much worry around the COVID

(04:25):
vaccine anyway, because therehas been so much worry around
vaccines in general, that thistook on a huge proportion, you
know, that it may not haveneeded to, I think that the data
you share ciencia, which is gooddata, that birth control pills,

(04:45):
for example, that teenagers andwomen have taken for a long,
long time have a dramaticallyhigher risk of creating blood
clots than the vaccine does. Andthat obviously COVID disease In
which the vaccine would preventyou, by and large from getting

(05:06):
has much greater risk than thevaccine does, makes us put it in
a different perspective. Butthat leads us then to say, Okay,
then, you know, but those aredifferent. This is something I'm
perv per, you know, making adecision to inject in my body,
you know, should I really takethis this extra risk. And I

(05:29):
think that the risk now ofactually getting COVID is
significantly higher than therisk of getting that
complication from the vaccineitself, especially with the
variants both the South Africanand British variant that are in
circulation now, throughout theUnited States, which are

(05:52):
significantly more contagiousand the British variant which
causes somewhat more severedisease, especially in younger
people, it is a higher risk thanthe risk of the vaccination. The
FDA did the right thing, byputting the vaccine on pause.

(06:14):
They put it on pause for a weekinitially to see would there be
an increase in accumulation ofmore cases, since the vaccine
had already been administered toso many people? Or would it
really stay the same or deem ordiminish, and so the vaccine may
indeed be available. Again,maybe by the time this podcast

(06:36):
is available, you know, for youto hear. And if it is made
available, again, it means thatthe vaccine is safe for you to
receive the risk of the bloodclots is so low, lower than the
risk of getting struck bylightning, dramatically lower
than the risk of taking birthcontrol pills, and certainly

(06:58):
dramatically lower than the riskyou would have of getting blood
clots from COVID that gettingthe vaccine makes sense.
Okay, so now we've we've movedpast the idea of the blood
clots. But let's talk about someof the other issues that we've
heard coming up with thevaccine. I know personally, that
there's family members of mine,or friends of mine, that have

(07:21):
teenagers, teenage girls to bespecific, that they're concerned
about fertility issues in thefuture. That's been circulating
a lot about the the chances thatthese vaccines might hurt our
children's for to fertility inthe future. What What do you
know about that? And what can wewhat we what can be said about
that?
Yeah, that's been that's been aquestion that's been asked a

(07:43):
lot. And it's for boys, too, theconcerns been for both genders.
There's been a concern aboutwomen who are thinking about or
undergoing fertility treatmentsnow, and concerns for women in
particular, but both gendersfrom now and going into the
future, both the World HealthOrganization who originally had

(08:07):
left that question open, and theAmerican College of Obstetrics
and Gynecology, have bothanswered that question now and
have said it is indeed safe, andwill not affect fertility. And
the reason they have been ableto say that is not just wishful
thinking. It's not just to quietthe people down and tell them to

(08:32):
get the vaccine. It's becausethe number of women who have
successfully become pregnant,while after having received the
vaccine is no different than hadoccurred prior to vaccine
availability. So had the vaccinehad an effect on fertility,

(08:54):
women who were receivingfertility treatments, and women
who were going through theprocess of becoming pregnant the
old fashioned way, what theywould have seen a shift in
pregnancy numbers, and thosenumbers haven't changed. So
given that there is safety insaying that fertility is not

(09:19):
apparently affected by thevaccine.
So we understand that withinformation that we have
currently Now, what about in thefuture, our children are young,
we're as parents, we're veryconcerned about what goes into
our kids bodies, you know,everything that they consume,
or, you know, anything thatthere are around radioactive

(09:43):
things, you know, we're justalways concerned of that
everything can be harmful to ourchildren. So how do we know that
it's not going to be somethingthat's harmful to them in the
future?
I think that's a great question.
And honestly, we can't answerthat question. We have not had
COVID Or the vaccine? aroundlong enough to answer that
question, what we can say isthat the people who have had

(10:07):
COVID, we do know, have longterm health outcomes already
visible as a result of havinghad COVID, whether you want to
call it long haul, COVID, noteven counting the deaths, not
even counting that inflammatorysyndrome, that children are
susceptible to, even those whonever had symptoms, when they

(10:31):
got COVID, to begin with, theone that get makes them very ill
and in the ICU, not evencounting that let's not even put
that in the category list.
Although that counts, but let'sjust talk about the the adults
who have had COVID. And thenmonths later, are still

(10:52):
suffering from neurologicphysiologic and emotional, you
know, impairments as a result ofCOVID disease. So clearly, there
are health outcomes that arethat are not good. As a result
of COVID disease COVID vaccine,we don't seem to have any data

(11:16):
to suggest that there areoutcome differences following
vaccination in the sametimeframe that we're looking at.
So although I cannot say withcertainty, I can say that we do
not have yet to see a vaccinethat has ever caused long term

(11:40):
damage later on, like vaccinesif they're going to have effects
that are unfavorable, do so inthe immediate period.

Cinzia Filipovski (11:52):
REpeat that, that was powerful.

Unknown (11:56):
There are no there are, there has never been a vaccine
that has had a long term, badeffect, something that wasn't
visible in the immediate periodfollowing vaccination. So just
like the j&j vaccine has beenpaused, because these blood

(12:16):
clots have occurred within twoweeks of vaccination. There has
never been a vaccine, where youlook back two years, 10 years,
20 years down the road and say,Wow, that was from the vaccine.
back then. So long term effectsthat are negative from

(12:38):
vaccination have yet to be everseen. So COVID vaccine would be
no different. It's not a newtechnology. It's a it's a
vaccine technology that has beenused. So there's no reason to
believe that this would bedifferent.

(12:59):
So let's talk about COVID rightnow, as is has not been as
harmful to children, we see thata lot of kids are getting sick,
they're getting ill with COVID.
But they're fine. They have no,no problem. Some of them are
even symptom free. If it's okayfor our kids, too. Or I
shouldn't say if it's okay, Ishould say if they are faring so

(13:21):
well with the illness, whybother getting them vaccinated?
You know, what, what do we?
What's the point of that?
If they're a great question? Youknow, this was the same question
that I was asked a lot when thechickenpox vaccine came out.
Most kids do great withchickenpox, right? So why bother
getting the vaccine? And thereason is, is that most kids

(13:46):
will do okay, with COVID, I'llbe honest, and most kids are not
going to have the seriousillness around COVID, whether
it's immediately at the time ofCOVID, or the inflammatory mhsc
complications from COVID. Mostwill not. So the reason to get
vaccinated is, first of all, todevelop immunity for the

(14:11):
mutating strains, the ones likethe one in Brazil, which were
thankfully only beginning to seehere in the United States, which
seems to cause much more severeillness in children. And so
having some immunity on board issomewhat protective. It's
helpful, obviously, for thecommunity at large to have your

(14:34):
child vaccinated, but a lot ofparents feel like listen, I love
the community. I'm all about thecommunity, but I don't
necessarily want to, you know,put my child through a
vaccination to protect you, youknow, so the final answer is
that you don't know if yourchild is going to be that one in

(14:55):
whatever the number is going tobe that one in 500 or that one
In 200 child who is going tohave severe disease, and if it
is severe disease, it's deadly.
It's not like, you know, just inthe hospital for a week, you're
in really rough shape. Andbecause COVID isn't only causing
that severe, you know, veryserious disease in compromised

(15:18):
children, it's also causing itin perfectly healthy children.
That's a big dice roll as aparent to decide, I'm not going
to vaccinate and really take mychances.
So what about the fact that thisvaccine is so new? I mean, have

(15:39):
they really been able to test itenough for us to be confident in
it? You know, it's been aroundfor less than a year, people are
just now getting it. I, youknow, I hear a lot of parents
concerned with the idea of notwanting to be the guinea pigs,
we're just gonna wait and see.
What What can you say aboutthat? Dr. Molly,

(16:00):
I was super skeptical myself. Imean, I'll be perfectly honest
with you. When when it becameclear to me that this, that the
vaccine was going to bemanufactured, tested and
available in such a shorttimeframe. I was very hesitant
myself as a even as a physician,you know, who's been around a

(16:22):
long time, and understands thevalue that vaccination provides
for all of us. But the more Icame to understand that what
allowed the timeframe to becompressed, was the fact that
the the people who are doing thestudies around it did not have

(16:43):
to wait a year or more for theirgrant money to be approved, so
that they could do the next stepin their research trial, that
that money was just availableimmediately available
immediately. The timeline was onstep that no, no shortcuts were

(17:04):
taken at any one step in thetimeline, that that part, every
step was fully taken. There wasno shortcut at any point, the
thing that allowed it to be doneso quickly, was that there was
no waiting for, you know, thebureau bureaucratic approval
process to take place, right ormade money, right. And then in

(17:26):
the end, when approval needed tohappen, I think there was
frustration at times, becausethe FDA, for example, didn't
just meet and do it overnight,it took a week or two, they
really did review theinformation, they asked
questions, they gathered moreinformation, and went forward.
So you know, other countries, itwas done more quickly, honestly,

(17:49):
because the review process wasdone a little a little faster,
honestly. So I felt afterunderstanding it, inside and out
that this was a completeprocess. There was nothing
shortened in the sense of therigor of it, the only thing that

(18:11):
was shortened was thebureaucracy of it. So I am
completely confident, frankly,in the information about the
vaccine about it safety, andit's about its effectiveness.
And I think the FDA has sinceshown its, you know, diligence

(18:33):
in having pause the J and Jvaccine over what was frankly, a
tiny, teeny tiny number of, youknow, cases of question, in
order to ensure our safety.
Putting on my medical managementhat for a moment, I just want to

(18:54):
pipe in here. I have to agreewith what you just said, because
before this vaccine came out, Iparticipated in many of the
meeting some with some militarybranches of the US as speakers,
and there was a lot of behindthe scenes discussion about how
the rollout of this vaccine wasgoing to happen way back in

(19:16):
October, November and December,to prepare us as medical offices
and such. And that was one ofthe biggest things that they
stressed was the money wasavailable every step of the way.
The administration at the top ofthe of the United States, just
released all the money insidewhatever you need. It's here

(19:37):
make it happen. And for that tohappen, quite honestly, I don't
think that ever happens. Youknow, it makes me wonder what
else could we achieve? If thathappened in that way? I can only
imagine how many diseases wecould be rid of. But that's
really the reality. I, you know,participated myself in a lot of
those meetings and that too, iswhat made me as a parent I

(20:00):
really want to get the vaccineafter that, after I really
learned how that worked. Andalso the scrutiny that is
happening, we have to imagineeverybody's eyes are on the SEC
seeing these all of thesevaccines right now. So every
little thing that comes out,we're all watching, we all are
trying to see what's going on.
And those, you know, six casesin 7 million, as we talked

(20:23):
about, it's just so small. Butyou know, another thing to just
kind of compare, I read astatistic, one in 500,000, is
your chance of getting hit bylightning, you have a greater
chance of getting hit bylightning than the blood clots
in the vaccine. So, so now thatwe've gone through those issues,

(20:43):
let's talk about, you know, whatabout those people that have
gotten COVID? You know, so we'vegotten COVID? Don't we have some
of, you know, our own immunityagainst this virus? How does
that work? Dr. Molly?
Well, you do you do haveimmunity against the strain of
COVID. You had, okay. So it'skind of like influenza. So

(21:06):
influenza comes each year, andthere are several strains in the
community floating around. Andif when you get influenza, you
get immunity to that yoursstrain, the one you got. All
right. Right now with COVID,there are several circulating
strains, right? There's theoriginal COVID, there's the
Europe or the British strain,there's the South African

(21:28):
strain, and there's theBrazilian strain. And there are
other other minor mutations aswell. So there are other
variations that just, you know,they're called the orphan
strains, because nobody talksabout them. So whatever strain
you got, you do have immunity toit. And Hooray, and that
immunity will provide youpartial suit of armor against

(21:51):
all the other strains that arecirculating, but not a full suit
of armor. So right now, it isrecommended and an encourage
that even though you have hadCOVID and got through it, that
you receive a vaccine that youstill get a vaccine, because it
will enhance your immunity andlikely cover against a different

(22:14):
variations, different strainvariation, then you may have
had. So what isn't as clear, andthere's still data out there. I
mean, obviously, the j&j isn'tone vaccine in any way. There is
there are ongoing studies todetermine if you really do need
to, or if one would be enoughfor you having had COVID before,
for right now the recommendationstill is to get the two two

(22:37):
vaccine deal, you can get thatvaccine, as soon as you have
completed your 10 days ofisolation. So it used to be you
had to wait 90 days before youcould get your vaccine that now
has changed. So as soon as youhave completed your 10 days of
illness period, you can get thatvaccine your first dose.

(22:59):
And finally, let's talk a littlebit about the efficacy of the
vaccines. You know, at first weheard Pfizer and Madonna were in
the 90s 95% efficacy. The j&jvaccine came in at 76%. And I
know some people thought, youknow, does that mean that one is

(23:20):
better than the other? Should Ibe holding out to get a
different vaccine? If it's notavailable at my local health
department? What can you tell usabout those efficacy numbers? So
first, I think it's important tounderstand what 95% means. Okay,
so if a vaccine is 95% effectivein this case, it doesn't mean

(23:41):
that you have only a 5% chanceof getting COVID. Alright, so
let me repeat that, it does notmean that you only have a 5%
chance of getting COVID it meansthat compared to everybody else,
you have you have a 95% lesschance of getting covered. So
let's say the chance of gettingCOVID in your area is 70%. Well,

(24:05):
then your chance of gettingCOVID is 95% less than 70%.
Okay, so it's a little tricky.
It's a lot of math. I mean, I'mnot gonna sit here and do the
math for you. But it getscalculator out. Right, exactly.
Right, ma'am. Math in everydaylife. I think nobody wants to do
that. So, but I will say that,it's that's how you have to
think about it. So it's not thatyou have only a 5% chance of

(24:29):
getting COVID it's that you havea 95% chance, less chance of
getting it then the communityrate. Okay. It's tricky that
way. Now, the j&j vaccine wastested at a time when there were
other variants. Also, it wasworldwide tested, was tested

(24:50):
with the British variant withthe South African variant. And
so its efficacy reflects thefact that it There were all
those other variants. And so thePfizer and maternal vaccines,
which were tested when theoriginal strain was really the
only one in dominantcirculation. If if they had been
tested, when all the others werearound, they are likely to have

(25:13):
come out the same. So they arereally about equally
efficacious. They're equallygood in that way. And, and
they're both going todramatically reduce your risk
compared to other people who areunvaccinated in your community.
And even if that risk isn'tzero, it dramatically reduces

(25:36):
your risk of severe disease andof death. So the vaccine is
worth it. It is, in some ways,like the flu vaccine, you can,
you may still get COVID, thereare several 100 cases now of
people who've received thevaccine and still got an COVID
following vaccination, but thecases are mild, they are not

(25:58):
life threatening. And so it isstill worth it to get the
vaccine, because you willprevent severe illness and
death.
So to sum it all up, basically,you've heard it from our
professional, Dr. Molly, thatthe vaccine is very effective,

(26:22):
it's safe. And bottom linegetting COVID is much worse. So
definitely get your vaccine, ifyou will, or whenever you can,
right? Yes, yes, you know, rightnow there are studies going on,
for kids down to age 12. Iexpect by the fall, that vaccine
will be available down to age12. And then the five to 12 year

(26:45):
olds will be the next group forwhom it'll be approved and then
down to age two, and then downto six months, those are the
groups that come along. And youcan trust that the that the the
children recruited orvolunteered into these studies
are are diverse in theirethnicities, and in gender

(27:08):
distribution. So it you willhave a very good sense of
safety. Safety is done firstefficacy is done second, so it
will be a clear answer aboutabout that by the time the
vaccine is approved for yourchild's age group. At that

(27:28):
point, you can obviouslycontinue to have conversations
with your pediatrician and talkabout for your individual child
circumstances around yourchild's health and wellness
regarding the vaccine. But if Iwere to make a blanket
statement, getting the vaccinefor your child makes sense.
And I can't stress that enough.
Please talk to your ownphysician or pediatrician with

(27:51):
whatever vaccine questions youmight have or COVID questions
quite honestly. So you know,that wraps it up for us. Thank
you for listening to today'sepisode. We you can reach us at
parenting with the pros and conscomm we'd love to hear your
feedback about today's episodes,any of our other episodes.

(28:13):
Whatever you might be wanting tohear us talk about any concerns
you might have that we can talkabout. You can also find us at
Dr. Molly OShea calm and onInstagram, Dr. Molly OShea. So
tune in next time in theconversation and remember,
parenting should be joyful. Solook for the pros and cons and

(28:35):
find that joy. Thank you forjoining us and see you next
time.