Neurodevelopmental PT 3 Learning Disabilities

Send us a text

Think a restless math class means ADHD? We peel back the layers to show how a specific learning disorder can masquerade as attention problems in one subject while everything else looks fine. With Hannah at the table, we walk through clear criteria, real classroom clues, and the practical ways to separate ADHD, SLD, or both—so kids get the right help faster.

We start with the three core domains of specific learning disorder—reading, written expression, and mathematics—and outline what struggle actually looks like: slow decoding and poor comprehension, disorganized writing and shaky spelling, weak number sense and problem‑solving. Then we zoom in on the six‑month rule: difficulties must persist despite targeted support like tutoring, accommodations, or structured interventions. You’ll hear why challenges often surface in third to fifth grade, when the work shifts from memorizing facts to analysis and synthesis, and how early intervention leverages neuroplasticity—the “paved roads” analogy that makes brain development easy to picture and act on.

To make this actionable, we map the assessment landscape. For learning, tools like the Woodcock‑Johnson, WIAT, WRAT, and KeyMath pinpoint subskill gaps; for attention and behavior, the Vanderbilt, Conners, BASC, and CBCL help establish cross‑setting patterns. The key move: if academic deficits remain after ADHD symptoms are well managed, a co‑existing SLD is likely and needs direct instruction. Along the way we share concrete signs to watch for in class, common pitfalls that delay help, and a quick recap of ADHD and autism spectrum disorder to anchor your mental model of neurodevelopmental differences.

Whether you’re a parent, educator, or clinician, you’ll leave with a sharper lens and a practical plan: notice where the struggle lives, measure it well, intervene early, and monitor progress often. If this conversation helped clarify the maze of labels and supports, subscribe, share the episode with someone who needs it, and leave a review with the biggest insight you’re taking forward.

If you need to study for your national licensing exam, try the free samplers at: LicensureExams


This podcast is not associated with the NBCC, AMFTRB, ASW, ANCC, NASP, NAADAC, CCMC, NCPG, CRCC, or any state or governmental agency responsible for licensure.

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:06):
The last disorder we're going to look at is the
specific learning disorder.
There were three sp specifiersaccording to the academic domain
that's impaired.

SPEAKER_01 (00:20):
What?
Did you say specifiers?

SPEAKER_00 (00:23):
Yes, dear.
Yes, I did.
Well, you got me there.
I thought I'd sneak that in andtry to get it past you, but that
never seems to work.
I know that's one of yourfavorite areas is specifiers.
But let's have Hannah share yourwonderful world of specifiers
this time.
What do you say?
So just give it up and let herdo it, okay?

SPEAKER_02 (00:47):
Okay, for real.
I'm team specifiers too, Stacey.
Okay.
So don't let details matter.
Details matter.

unknown (00:58):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (00:58):
Yes.
Yes.
Okay.
Definitely something to talkabout, especially when we're
going to into specific learningdisorders.
So the three academic domainswe're looking at with specific
learning disorders are going tobe reading.
So for example, inaccurate orslow reading, difficulty, you

(01:20):
know, decoding words, poorreading comprehension.
We're looking at writtenexpression.
So problems with spelling,grammar, clarity of writing,
organized ideas in writing.
We're looking at mathematics.
He's struggling with numbersense, memorizing math facts,
understanding concepts ormathematical raising.
And now these skills, though,these child skills, they have to

(01:43):
be substantially andpersistently below the average.

SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
Well, you know, what I'd like to know is the kind of
criteria that you would use,Hannah, to diagnose a specific
learning disorder.

SPEAKER_02 (01:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
So the first thing to reallyknow about them, specific
learning disorders, is that theyoften show up when a child
starts school.
We're talking about age five,six, seven.
So the first thing is that thechild has difficulty learning
and using the academic skills inone of the domains I just
mentioned.

(02:17):
But next, the deficits also haveto cause the child's academic
performance to be much lowerthan what is expected for their
age.
So lots of poor grades, liketeacher reports of the student
struggling with material,performance below grade level on
standardized assessments.
I think this is where it kind ofgets tricky, though, because if
you talk about a kid who hasADHD like symptoms, but it's

(02:40):
only in math class or reading orwriting, it's important to note
that the kids will oftenanxiously avoid the subject
they're having trouble in.
Right.
So if we see these things kindof happen at the same time,
we're like, ah, it could beADHD, but it's only in math
class, right?
They're they're they're notconcentrating in math class,
they're inattentive, they'regetting out of their seat,
they're acting, you know, butyou get them to reading and

(03:02):
they're they're great.
They're sitting there readingfor 30 minutes, they're they're
deep into their book, you know.
So we're looking at that strongdistinction between those.
So it's important to again puton that detective hat to
determine which disordercriteria does that child meet.

SPEAKER_01 (03:18):
Gotcha.
And how about duration?
I'm guessing this isn't justlike you have a specific
learning disorder with a readingimpairment because you didn't
like a certain book you werereading in class.
Like, how would you how do youdistinguish a specific learning
disorder from a child who's justhaving temporary difficulty
grasping new concepts or beinginterested in that material?

SPEAKER_02 (03:37):
Yeah, that's actually a perfect question.
Yeah.
So kind of for it to bediagnosed as a disorder, the
learning difficulties need topersist over at least six
months.
Even with targeted academic helpprovided, we're talking
tutoring, we're talking maybeyou're doing a 504 plan where
the kiddos getting special, youknow, read aloud tests or

(03:59):
something like that.
Um, it's beyond just theseinitial challenges, like, I'm
having trouble, you know, we'removing up in reading to the
chapter books.
I'm having trouble keeping up.
It's really an actual functionalimpairment over time, despite
the safeguards or interventionsthat are in place.
So they're not just failing, youknow, one bad reading or writing

(04:21):
test.
It's likely they're failing allof their tests and they're truly
stunted in a way to where theyreally can't move forward.

SPEAKER_00 (04:31):
So, you know, sort of like ADHD and autism spectrum
disorder, uh, the symptoms thatyou're saying about specific
learning disorders uh may notreally manifest until the
academic demands become largeror they exceed the uh child's uh
capabilities.

(04:51):
So it may seem like that kid'sdoing pretty well uh reasonably
well in early grades, but uh theunderlying deficits become way
more apparent as the materialthat they have to deal with,
with analysis, synthesis, andevaluative kind of functionings
get much more and more uhcomplex.

SPEAKER_02 (05:12):
Yeah, yeah.
It it really is, it really is.
And sometimes, you know, youdon't even I don't even see
kills really struggle untiltheir maybe third, fourth, fifth
grade sometimes, because they'vebeen able to kind of coast, you
know, they've been able to belike, oh, I'm good, I'm good.
They get into maybe even middleschool when expectations and
homework and things are gettinga little bit more complex, and

(05:33):
you start seeing these kidsreally struggle, and they're
like, Well, I don't know what'swrong.
I've always I was good here, youknow, but I don't know.
I got to this class and now Ijust I can't keep up.
And that's when we really startinvestigating and looking deeper
into it.
But it it is really ideal tocatch learning issues early
through screenings and targetedsupport before the child falls

(05:55):
extremely behind their peers.
So even if the severity ofsymptoms doesn't warrant a
complete diagnosis, maybe it'sjust a six-year-old who's really
struggling with sight words orwhatever it may be.
But addressing those gapsproactively can make a really
big difference in the long termof that child's academic career.
So we have been known to catchthings as early as kindergarten,

(06:18):
you know, when they're firstlearning their numbers and ABCs
and writing and reading andstuff.
But I will always, always,always preach about pro-early
intervention strategies becauseit really helps to get the child
the support they need, as wellas catching the brain in the
crucial first decade of life.
So we always talk about thatkind of when we're talking about

(06:39):
these things because the first10 years of your life, your
brain grows the most.
We know this according toresearch and science.
So when we talk about that firstdecade of life, early
intervention is where we want tobe.
You really want to grasp that soyou can give the best outcomes
for later on.

SPEAKER_00 (06:56):
You know, that that brings up a question I've I've
always had.
With a lot of other diagnoses,um, the criteria, they'll say
for a kid is only like three,but for uh an adult it'll be
six.
Or if I see I understand thatthey're trying to catch the
diagnosis earlier.

(07:18):
Okay, but in this situation, itseems like it's reversed.
That you know, for kids it's sixand for someone older it's five.
I'm confused.
Straighten me out, Hannah.

SPEAKER_02 (07:37):
So you're thinking it's reversed, like we should be
pro-early interventions?

SPEAKER_00 (07:41):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (07:42):
Yeah, I mean, I think so.
I think where this lies is kindof what I was talking about that
because as uh you know, humans,our brains are wired to learn to
pick up things and everythingelse.
And we always we all know aboutneuroplasticity, how your brain
will adapt and mold to things,you know, we discovered that
quite a long time ago.
But when we talk about likespecific learning disorders, we

(08:05):
talk about the act of learning,is a very complex brain
activity, right?
When you're talking about thethe way that your brain will
learn and grow, that first 10years of our brain is so crucial
because by 10 years old, yourbrain has now created so many
different types of connectionsand molds and routes to talk to

(08:27):
its other part of its brain.
But those first years, whenwe're exposing kids to ABCs and
communication and writing andskills, those parts of our
brain, it becomes increasinglydifficult to form those what I
call roads in our brain, whichis if you form a new connection
in the brain, like with writing.

(08:48):
Say we take writing, if you formthat new connection, if we don't
catch that early, that road towriting is going to be very
difficult to pave as we getolder because our brain will
become more concise and it wouldalready have its connections
there.
And so we want to make sure thatwe catch it early so those roads
can be nicely paved over and nothave to try to dig it out when

(09:10):
we're older and our brain isalready already developed in a
certain way.

SPEAKER_01 (09:15):
It sounds a lot like the Michigan roads.
They're filled with potholes,just like everywhere, as far as
the eye can see.
So I wish there had been alittle bit of early
intervention.
Um and just some nice, you know,non-bumpy roads.
Um, that was really goodanalogy.

SPEAKER_02 (09:32):
Exactly.
I always use that, I always usethat as an explanation because I
think it just we're you knowfamiliar with dirt roads and
paved roads, and dirt roads areso much easier to make in a
child's brain when it is justnow forming a bunch of dirt
roads, right?
And so then getting into anolder, say adolescent or older
child, their brains already madea bunch of paved roads.

(09:52):
And I'm coming in there tryingto do a dirt road somewhere, and
it's harder for that child tolearn that skill or to get
better at that skill.
So we not that it's impossible,they're definitely not
impossible.
You can definitely do it, butit's so much easier to correct
that at five and six or sevenyears old versus trying to take
a 15-year-old and sit down andlearn how to read.

(10:12):
You know, so it's is definitelyjust looking at brain
development and thatneuroanatomy that's really gonna
help us to understand.

SPEAKER_00 (10:20):
Okay, Hannah, let me ask you this.
How do you tease apart whetherit's like ADHD versus a specific
learning disability versus bothof those conditions uh happening
simultaneously?

SPEAKER_02 (10:38):
So that's a very common question, actually,
especially when I'm tutoring ortalking to other counselors
about this.
Um so differentials are justbroadly a skill of their own.
And it kind of goes back to whatI was saying earlier about that
basic neuroanatomy of wherethese disorders take place, how

(10:58):
it helps to understand thatdifferential diagnosing part.
But when you're reading on theexam, you're reading a case
study on the exam, you have toremember that ADHD and specific
learning disorders commonly willco-occur.
This is partly because of theexecutive functioning center of
the brain.
Now, a key piece, and I'mdistinguishing between them, is

(11:20):
whether the academic skilldeficits remain even when the
ADHD symptoms are well managed.
So let's kind of break that downa little bit.
So if a child exhibits readingdifficulties that persist
despite ADHD treatment, itpoints to a likely underlying

(11:41):
reading disorder rather than theproblem with tension or focus or
whatever it may be, which couldbe the primary driver.
So a lot of times for diagnosticpurposes, um, we have to talk
about the appropriateassessments.
I am an assessment believer, Ibelieve in them so much,

(12:02):
partially part of my training.
Um, I, you know, was apsychometrist for a while during
grad school and for aneuropsychologist.
So I am just, I love myassessments.
Um but for this one, forspecific learning disorders, we
can look at assessments like theWoodcock Johnson, the peabody
individual achievement tests,the wide-range achievement

(12:25):
tests, the key math threediagnostic assessments for ADHD.
We're looking at assessmentssuch as the NICHQ Vanderbolt,
the child behavioral checklist,the Connors, and the behavioral
assessment system for children.
That's not an exhaustive list.
There are so many assessmentsout there to gauge both of these

(12:45):
things, but I would say thoseare probably the most commonly
used, um, especially when we'relooking at um something like the
Woodcock Johnson used in schoolsa lot.

SPEAKER_00 (12:56):
Do you do you have a favorite?

SPEAKER_02 (12:59):
Oh, do I have a favorite?
Don't do that to me, Listen.
I'll be here forever talkingabout my assessment.

SPEAKER_00 (13:04):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (13:07):
Good to know, Hannah.
You're an assessment person.
I am.
I like it.

SPEAKER_00 (13:13):
Yeah, people have so people have so much trouble with
assessments.

SPEAKER_02 (13:18):
It's a huge gap.
It is.
I see people for tutoring, andit's a huge gap.
And I, you know, I was apsychometrist for a pediatric
neuropsychologist during myinternship year as a therapist.
And so all I did wasassessments.
I would do assessments one day,I would do therapy the next day,
assessments one day, becauseassessments in the neural psych
world last from 8 a.m.
to five or six p.m.

(13:38):
You get like a one-hour breakfor lunch.
Like put it all with them.
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (13:44):
Was this like in like were you still doing like
pencil paper kind of stuff?
Or are you doing, you know, wasit?

SPEAKER_02 (13:49):
No, we were doing like the iPad.
They have like that iPad now,the Q interactive.
You can do the waste and thewhisk on there.
I was doing uh the whips foryounger talkers, you know, Chris
Play.
Um, I will say I think myfavorites assessments are the IQ
ones because they're fun.
You get to have a whole varietyof activities we're doing.

(14:10):
Um, and it's always just, Ithink it was a great time.

SPEAKER_00 (14:13):
So did you ever do like the CAT with the kids?

SPEAKER_02 (14:17):
I did the CAT.
Yeah, I've done that.
Um, oh my gosh, I've done somany.
I even ventured into doing umretired football players
assessments.
So people who were looking tothey had CTE.
So people from the 70s.
So I got to meet some reallycool um footballers and do their
do their cognitive assessmentsand stuff.
So it was it was a great time.

(14:37):
I I loved my little assessmenttraining.
It was great.
Oh, that's very cool.

SPEAKER_00 (14:42):
Hey Stacy, why don't you highlight three of the
neurodevelopmental disordersthat we covered today?
Would you do that?

SPEAKER_01 (14:50):
Yes.
Okay, so we have spent uh beendown a long dirt road um talking
about these neurodevelopmentdisorders.
And um, so we'll do a quickrecap here.
So we started off with autismspectrum disorder, and this
involves persistent, so longerterm, persistent deficits in
social communication andinteractions, as well as

(15:12):
restrictive and repetitivebehaviors.
Those are the keys there.
ADHD, attention deficithyperactivity disorder, involves
again that persistent pattern ofinattention, hyperactivity, or
impulsivity, or both.
And that needs to have lastedfor at least six months, and
it's present in remembermultiple settings, so not just

(15:33):
one place.
Um, and several symptoms musthave been present before age 12.
And that's even if you're anadult.
So like you got to go back intime and look at what was going
on before age 12.
And then last but not least, wetalked about specific learning
disorders, which hinder theacquisition of those academic
skills in areas like reading,writing, andor math.

(15:57):
So we have a big thank you todayto Hannah for being with us and
to our studious listeners outthere.
We wish you the very best ofluck with your exam.
And before we go, we'd also liketo do a shout out to a nonprofit
that was put together by aperson many of you know, Barton
Bott.
It's called the Barking Ark.
And you can check out thewonderful work that he's doing

(16:18):
with animals at BarkingArk.org.
Have I gotten everything,Linton?

SPEAKER_00 (16:23):
You got it all.
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (16:24):
All right, great.
So until our next episode, justremember it's in there.