A Conversation on Catholicism

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
well, welcome back to uh, pastor plex podcast.
I'm so glad all of you arejoining us and none other do we
have in the building.
Pastor holland, greg, welcome,hello, and we have a guest.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Robbie, introduce yourself hey guys, it's really
great to meet you.
My name is robbie cruz.
I have been coming to wellsbranch community church for
roughly about the past three tofour months or so and it's
honestly been a really greatexperience so far.
But a little bit about myself.
I'm very passionate aboutthings like sports, my faith, my
relationship with Jesus,obviously fitness, traveling

(00:38):
kind of all over the place anddo tech sales for work, which
has been really awesome.
Been doing it for the pastthree years and honestly, just
really excited to be here today.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
All right, so, robbie , word on the street is you are
a fitness guy.
Where exactly is it that youwork out?

Speaker 2 (00:53):
You know it's funny, my girlfriend's sister's or her
brother-in-law's asking me thatquestion every single day.
I see him and I always say I goto Fitness Connection.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
It's roughly about 15 to 20 minutes away from here.
Yeah, is it the one rightacross 35?

Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah, right across 35 .
Right by Life Church sort ofYep, that's correct.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
Oh my gosh.
Well, yeah, I know that one.
Well, All right, so I think alot of our people that have a
tendency to smoke weed go to thesteam room there.
Anyway, oh yeah.
I'm so glad that you're here.
So, Robbie, tell me whatbrought you to our church,

(01:30):
because word on the street isyou're Catholic.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
I am Catholic, I was raised in the Catholic Church
and I actually went to a schoolin Washington DC called Catholic
University.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
So the Catholic faith has always been Wow, you're
hardcore.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
I would like to say pretty hardcore, definitely.
But honestly now I definitelyidentify myself as a follower of
Christ.
But if I did have to pick adenomination, I would say I'm
Catholic.
But the reason why I've beencoming to Wells, branch number
one is because, like I said, mygirlfriend actually comes here
and she's really inspired me toreally check out this church.
You know, she's always talkingabout the great community here.

(02:01):
She's talking about, like thepeople, the great pastor that we
have here, even though he hassome LeBron James takes.
I don't always agree with, buthonestly, it's the community and
the people that she's alwaystalking about, and I absolutely
love it.
I got involved in VacationBible School last week how was?
that, honestly, it was so muchfun.
It's funny because I don't the.

(02:24):
I don't love like working withkids and that was my first time
like working with kids and I wastelling her about at noon in
the middle of the day I was sotired from it.
I was like, yeah, I don't knowhow people work with kids all
day, every day.
I felt more tired from workingwith kids in those three hours
than I have in the past threeand a half years of doing tech
sales.
So it was very, very tiring,but a really great experience

(02:45):
overall and just making so manyfriends was really awesome.
And that's the one thing Ireally love about this church is
the community.
The people are so friendly andI've gotten to meet some really
great people here.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
Oh well, man, I'm so encouraged by that.
All right, so talk to me aboutsome of the things that have
made you curious about goingbeyond the Catholic faith.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, great question.
So there are a lot of thingsthat I agree with with the
Catholic faith and things that Ihave some questions about and
I'm really attracted to withthis.
So, first of all, at VBS theother week we were talking about
biblical verses, right, and thekids I don't know if I've ever
seen so many kids know the Bibleso well and I was just appalled
by it.
The kids are spewing out randomBible verses just off the top

(03:28):
of their head like that they'rememorizing verses and I thought
that was so beautiful and soinspiring just hearing how well
they knew the Bible.
I think another thing too thatI really love and have gotten to
spend a lot of time with isreally just seeing like the fire
that you know, the young peoplehave for Jesus in these
churches.
So one thing that's differentbetween the Catholic faith and,

(03:50):
you know, the Christian churchis definitely the way, like you
know, we praise Jesus right.
In the Catholic faith it's alittle bit more quiet, a little
bit more ritualistic, like wehave songs in there, but they're
more like hymns.
So it's much more quiet in here.
It's, you see, people likeclosing their eyes, they're like
reaching out, like talking toJesus literally, and that's

(04:11):
something that I really like andI think is such a beautiful
thing.
And the final thing, too, islike with the way that you know
the Christians pray, right Likea lot of the Catholic prayers
are prayers that are likeactually written out and you
know it's something that youknow we've been doing and pretty
much is just part of thehistory of the church, whereas
with the Christian church a lotof it is like you're really just
speaking from your own heart.
So I think putting all thosethings together is something
that's really interested me.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
Okay, so what about?
Let's go back to this Sunday.
Anything stick out to you fromthis past Sunday?

Speaker 2 (04:37):
Absolutely.
The first thing was that LeBronJames comment.
Lebron James, in my opinion, isthe greatest basketball player
of all time.
He's the greatest.
I could talk all day about this.
A lot of people and I we talkabout that.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
The only thing he has really going for him is he's
stayed pretty healthy over 20years.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
Yeah, he's been in the NBA now for about 21 seasons
, I think, and he's got a career27 point per game average.
He's been very consistentthroughout his entire career
without getting hurt, makingseveral finals appearances, and
also every team that he's onends up being a deep playoff
contender.
But when he leaves a team,usually they fall off the map.
So the impact that LeBron Jameshas is one of the greatest
impacts I think we'll ever seeof any athlete in sports history
.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
So the only thing I just take note of is that,
lebron, the reason why he maynot get hurt is he quits trying
about the last five minutes ofthe game.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Well, I mean considering the fact that he's
got almost as many playoffbuzzer beaters as almost anybody
.
I don't know the exact number.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
But after 21 years you should I mean like of course
right.

Speaker 2 (05:41):
So his should I mean like of course right, so his
field will percentage in thelast three seconds in the
playoffs, I think is about 49from the field, which is like
one of the greatest.
So he is a very clutch player.
But you know, I I do knowlebron james isn't the reason
why we came on to talk today,but honestly, that lebron james
comment that you made on sunday.
I thought it was so funny and Iremember like all of us were

(06:02):
just like laughing each other.
We thought it was a reallyreally, um great thing to bring
up.
It was fun.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
I I listen, I I have listen.
Lebron james is super generous.
He's a huge philanthropist, uh,so I appreciate that about him
and so, way to go, lebron, hemight you know, if you were on
the bulls and and a team that Iliked, I'd be really for him
anyway, uh, yes so let's talkabout, uh, some of the things

(06:26):
that you have questions about,like regarding um being one of
the things you're as you'rechecking out, like the christian
faith, you know, beyondcatholicism.
What are the?
because we talked together waslast week yeah, it was last
wednesday, I believe we talkedlast week week about some of the
questions that you've beenhaving and I kind of wonder.
I thought that was such a goodconversation.

(06:49):
I wanted to have it again withHolland, who's very astute, and
I would love to kind of gothrough some of those things
that you were really kind ofwrestling with and asking about.

Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, absolutely so.
You know, Pastor Plek and I wehad a lot of theological
questions last week, but Iremember one of the main themes
that I really wanted tounderstand was just the
difference between the Catholicfaith and the Christian church.
Obviously, when it comes tothinking about it from a very

(07:27):
general perspective, somethingthat I hear a lot about is
Catholics believe in, they prayto saints, they pray to Mary,
and they are spending lots oftime doing things like
confession, adoration, andadoration is like meditation
time, and that's something thatis a lot different than the
Christian church, which I doknow about, but I think it'd be
really great just to talkquickly about some of the key
differences that you think of.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, outsideof that, either, or anything.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
No, this is good.
Let's just go back to theReformation.
Martin Luther back in the dayhe brought up the 95 theses.
Right, and the 95 theses werethe issues he had at the
Catholic Church, and I think wecan all say this doesn't just
happen to the Catholic Church,cor across the board in any

(08:07):
human institution, even one thathas great intentions to worship
and serve the Lord.
And so what the Pope was doingback in Martin Luther's days, he
was selling indulgences.
Are you familiar withindulgences?
And so if you're not familiarwith that, that is a like when
you purchase an indulgence, thePope would sign a piece of paper
saying that your dead ancestor,their purgatory, is going to be

(08:28):
paid off.
And so when you hear the coinring up from purgatory, a soul
springs.
They would have literal streetpreachers collecting money that
would say like do you want yourfamily members to burn in hell?
Do you want to be sure you toocan be sure of their eternal

(08:49):
salvation?
If you purchase this papal bullthat says that your brother Bob,
who died last Wednesday ofplague, hey, he is going to be
resting eternally, as any goodfamily member would do.
They're looking at it's likeI'd rather be safe than sorry, I
want to make sure I'm good withGod, and so that was probably

(09:09):
one of the primary things thatdrove the Reformation was saying
that your salvation could bebought or your salvation could
be paid for, and that justseemed like a wild thought, and
so the big thing that MartinLuther said is that salvation is
a gift of God in which he makesthe sinner righteous on the

(09:36):
basis of grace, by means offaith, and so I think that
becomes the primary difference,and I think the Council of Trent
which do you know what year theCouncil of Trent was 15, um, it
came out right after theReformation.

Speaker 3 (09:52):
Something like that, yeah 1545 to 1563.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
I mean, they met for almost 20 years trying to figure
out what makes the CatholicChurch distinct.
What are they going to like?
Draw the line on what is ananathema?
And one of the things that wasanathema was the idea that you
could be saved by grace alone,through faith alone, and I think
that became whenever you lookat the Christian life.

(10:21):
There's nothing that you bringto the table that would allow
you to be saved other than yoursin.
You bring your sin, and Jesus'sblood is the thing that covers
you and then, but that doesn'tmean God doesn't want you to do
good things, and that doesn'tmean that good things don't get
you eternal reward.

(10:41):
It does.
However, what justifies you asa Christian is the blood of
Jesus alone.
If you add anything else to it,you take away from what Jesus
did on the cross, and that's whyI think Christians get so.
Aggressive might be a good wordfor that.
What do you think, Holland?

(11:01):
What would be a good way to saythat?

Speaker 3 (11:03):
that what do you think, holland?
What would be a good way to saythat?
The difference between?
So a lot of the time you knowin this conversation talk about
the Reformation and things likethat you have.
Have you heard of, like thefive so-laws?
Have you heard that before?
I don't think so.
Okay, so the five so-laws ofthe Protestant Reformation are
kind of like these key points ofdistinction between what would

(11:26):
become Protestantism, which wasinitially an attempt to reform
the church, not break away fromit, but that's why it's called
the Reformation.
But with the Pope's refusal toaccept the reform, it led to
this kind of breaking off of theProtestant reformers.
The solas are this.
Sola this is the Latin phrasesola, meaning alone, or only so.

(11:51):
Sola scriptura scripture alone,is the highest authority.
It doesn't mean only authority,but the highest authority,
whereas Catholics would teachthat tradition church, the pope
papal, infallibility was a bigthing.
The pope, when speaking excathedra from the seat of Peter,

(12:11):
right that he is preserved fromerror by the Holy Spirit and
everything he would speak fromthat position would be true.
This is something SolaScriptura says.
Actually, we have the inspiredtrue words of God in the
scriptures and that's ourhighest authority.
So that was a big one.
Sola Gratia, sola Fide, solusChristus are grace alone, faith

(12:36):
alone, christ alone.

Speaker 1 (12:39):
And then Sola Deo Gloria.
Yeah, and then Sola Deo Gloriais the final one, for the glory
of God alone, 289,.

Speaker 3 (12:41):
Yeah, and then Soli Deo Gloria is the final one, for
the glory of God alone, which,yeah, the three of faith alone,
grace alone, christ alone arelike Ephesians 289,.
You're saved by grace, throughfaith, not by works, so that no
one can boast this is a gift ofGod, that emphasis of that.

(13:02):
It's your faith in Christ thatjustifies you.
That was a big deal.
What Plek brought up aboutVatican II?
No, council of Trent, vaticanII is different.
Council of Trent was, you knowthese pronouncements of saying
you're not justified by faithalone.
And if you read, like theactual canons of the Council of

(13:24):
Trent, it goes very specifically, says it in multiple ways, that
essentially your good works arerequired for your justification
, whereas a Protestant would saygood works are required as part
of your final salvation, butthey come as the fruit of your
justification.

(13:44):
If that makes sense, you arejustified by grace alone,
through faith alone and Christalone, and then from that place
you are filled with the HolySpirit, sanctified, and from
your justification will flowgood works.
That your life would be markedby good works.
Does that make sense?
It does.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
And something that I think I would definitely love to
pick your brains on and I hearthis all the time from like
catholics about solid scripture,just sort of scriptura.
Yeah, is like the catholicchurch.
Like you said, it relies onhistory and tradition.
A lot of the most of thebible's pretty much just been
interpret by the.
The church, right like thechurch agrees on what the bible

(14:21):
means certain things.
Something that I think isinteresting is what's your take
on pastors having differentopinions and different
interpretations on certain partsof the Bible?

Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, and we all do Hall, and I don't agree on
everything, and there arecertain essentials that I think
are essential to agree on, whichI do think is justification by
grace, through faith,justification before God.
That's a huge thing to agree on.
Uh, and I think that that thereare some minor things that we

(14:51):
might disagree on, kind of likehow I agree the game of
basketball is awesome, but Ithink michael jordan's the goat
and lebron is a like, not evenfirst team like I think that's
where we could go with thatright and I would say.

Speaker 3 (15:03):
On that too, I would say there are a lot of in like
modern evangelicalism today.
There's a lot of wacky stuffthat you look at and you go man,
this is what happens when youjust allow anyone to, sola
scriptura, come up with theirown interpretation.
You get a lot of really, youknow, heretical, crazy stuff

(15:27):
that becomes mainstreamChristianity.
So, like I, like I'm verypro-history and tradition, but
Sola Scriptura says scripturealone is the highest authority.
So tradition and history, Ithink those things are very,
very important but are subjectto scripture, not equal with

(15:51):
scripture.
Equal with scripture is whatthe Catholic teaching is.
And so when you have somethinglike Vatican II official
Catholic doctrine that saysMuslims and Catholics worship
the same God, right, I look atthat and I go you got a Pope and

(16:11):
an official church doctrinalruling that says Muslims and
Catholics worship the same God,muslims and Christians worship
the same God.
I look at that and I go there'sno way that that is true.
And so I would say that youhave deviated from scripture and
therefore your council of, oryour Vatican too, is false

(16:33):
because it disagrees withscripture, which is the highest
authority.

Speaker 2 (16:36):

Speaker 1 (16:37):
It does, yeah, I understand what you mean and I
think it's like the exact wordsfrom the second Vatican
council's document Lumen Gentiumaffirms that muslims profess to
hold the faith of abraham andtogether with us, they adore the
one merciful god.
So the church thus teaches thatgod of abraham is indeed the
same god worshiping consolatismand islam, despite differences
in theological understanding andpractice.

(16:58):
And I think that's the problemthat, um, the catholics for a
long time were hardcore andreally until Vatican II were
hardcore Like it's Latin onlyyeah, and I think they missed it
from on the side.

Speaker 3 (17:11):
They were very anti-Muslim.
They were very anti-Muslim.
In fact, they did crusades.
Ie the crusades, yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:15):
And now they're like I mean, muslims are basically
Christians, is what they'reessentially saying, which is
wild right.

Speaker 3 (17:26):
Yeah, it's completely different.
It's completely different.
So I think it's not thatBecause the God of Abraham is
Jesus Christ.
Muslims would say Jesus is aprophet.
But remember, jesus beforeAbraham was, I am.
He is the God.
Paul calls him the rock.
In the Old Testament, you knowthe water from the rock uses
that illustration.
It says Jesus was the rock whonourished them.
In the Old Testament, you knowthat the water from the rock
uses that illustration.

(17:46):
It says Jesus was the rock whonourished them in the wilderness
.
Jesus is the God of Abraham.
And so to say, muslims worshipthe God of Abraham?
No, they don't.
So that's where I go, man.
I actually.
There's a lot of things I loveabout that you brought up.
You brought up the liturgy, andyou know um written prayers, uh

(18:07):
, traditions, like.
I think these are all reallywonderful things I would.
The Protestant view, though, isthat they they must be in
conformity with scripture andsubject to scripture.
They, they don't have the sameauthority as scripture.
They're only helpful in so faras they agree with scripture,
and where they deviate fromScripture, they're no longer
helpful.
But does that difference makesense?

Speaker 2 (18:28):
It does make a lot of sense and I totally understand.

Speaker 3 (18:30):
I'm not saying you have to agree with it.

Speaker 2 (18:32):
No for sure, and I'm pretty flexible and pretty
easygoing with that kind ofstuff.
So I totally get what you mean.
And something, too, that Ithought was interesting about
just the Christian church as awhole that I was talking to
Pastor Plek about last week isI've been to just some
background about myself as wellwhen I first moved to Austin.
A lot of my friends areChristian Not many of them are
Catholic and one of my closefriends goes to a different

(18:53):
church right and I would go tolike his church and his church
service, and I noticed that whenI compare the way that that
church, those services were ranwas a little bit different from
the way that this church wasbeing run.
I think something that's alittle bit interesting and I
would love for your guys' takeon it is.
It seems like some Christianchurches are ran in different
ways, or the services areoperated differently.

(19:14):
Yeah, tell me what you mean bythat, like with the way who
might be preaching or with theway that they're preaching
certain things, the way that theCatholic Church operates is in
case many of you haven't had achance to check it out.
It's pretty much like theentire church agrees like okay
we're going to read like this.

Speaker 1 (19:33):
Reading like this will be our first reading.
Whether you're in the UnitedStates or in Italy, correct,
everyone's on the same page.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
This is the first reading, this is the second
reading and this is our gospelRight.
And then after that there are,like, certain prayers, and what
I've learned is that inChristian churches I and I could
be completely wrong, so let meknow if I am but they don't
always like talk about the sameverses or the same story every
week and also, like I said, likewith the way that certain

(19:57):
people are like running thechurch, it might be a little bit
different, like like one churchhas like a female pastor which
is a little bit different fromothers and so a little bit of
different things.
So like is that something thatyou think is like normal or like
what do you think of that?

Speaker 3 (20:09):
Yeah, Is that normal Great question.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (20:12):
So there are, uh, so there are other non-Catholic
traditions that follow a similar.
So, like Anglicans, forinstance, follow um, the book of
common prayer, um, which is,you know, a book of here's the
readings, here's the oldTestament, you know the new
Testament, the gospel readings,here's the prayers, here's the

(20:33):
liturgy.
You know very similar.
But then you have traditionslike Baptists, who you can visit
.
You could take a snapshot of ahundred Baptist churches around
America one Sunday morning andthey're all preaching a
different text, and one isacapella and the other one is a
guitar and the other one is anorgan and another, you know, it

(20:54):
could be all.
There's a lot of differenceslike that.
So there are these differenttraditions and denominations
that are out not Catholic, butthere's some that are very
similar to Catholicism and somethat are very different from it.
And so, depending on whichtradition and denomination,
you're going to have moreliturgical or formal, or some

(21:15):
that are just like show up andthe pastor's got shorts and flip
flops on and you know preachesa, you know a short sermon, or
something like that, whereasyou're going to have some that
are a Baptist church buteveryone's in a suit, they're
following.
We teach verse by verse throughthese books of the Bible,
45-minute sermons.
We're going to have thesewritten out prayers.
We're going to sing hymns.

(21:37):
We're going to follow theSecond London Baptist Confession
of Faith, you know, as ourDoctrinal.

Speaker 1 (21:43):
Bound 1689.

Speaker 3 (21:45):
There's going to be a lot of different variants for
that, and so I'm basicallysaying like I agree that there's
not just one type of Protestantchurch.
There's a bunch of types ofProtestant churches, for better
or worse.
I think you could argue thatthere's some good things that
come from that incontextualization of the gospel

(22:08):
to different communities.
There's also some things, likeI mentioned earlier, where you
get off the rails and youseparate yourself from history,
tradition and authority outsideof yourself and do things like
you mentioned, like having awoman pastor or preacher, which
goes against what the Bibleteaches in 1 Timothy, and
whereas that wouldn't happen ina Catholic church.

(22:28):
They're hardcore about noordaining women, right, yeah,
and so, from the top down, nomatter what Catholic church
you're at anywhere in the world,you have to all submit to the
same rule, whereas Protestants,you have a bunch of different
types of Protestant churches,right, and a lot of them that
have become more liberal andprogressive, that have started
doing things that would disagreewith 2000 years of church

(22:51):
history.

Speaker 1 (22:52):
Which I would say like within the Catholic church.
Oddly, you also have differentI don't even call them
denominations, but differentorders.
So you got the Augustinianorder.
Jesuit order, Franciscan order.
All these different orders havedifferent.
Like you know, the Augustinianswere more follow the Bible,

(23:13):
salvation by grace, throughfaith, for the most part,
Whereas Jesuits were like wewill obey the Pope even more,
you know, like we pledged to thePope and then you got
Franciscans who just love tohang out with birds you know, or
whatever, I don't know.
You know, it's like uh, I don'tknow that for sure, but like, I
think there's a reality that thedifferent theological
structures were nuanced to apoint very, very lenient on, and

(23:38):
you can kind of go any way youwant within the Catholic church,
uh, as long as you didn't goagainst the Pope and as long as
the Pope gave you sort of likeapproval.
And so I think what you foundfor a long time, and when it was
more of a high structured, thePope was exerting a lot of power
is that it was very contained,but as the Pope wanted to be,

(23:59):
you know, vatican II kind ofchanged the game.
It's like we're going to turnthe.
You know, instead of pushingeverybody out, we're going to
invite everybody in and we'regoing to be a little bit looser
on theological doctrines, whichallowed for more orders to kind
of take in their own thing.
Anyway, I think that's sort ofthe difference.
So you probably have the samething within the Catholic Church
as you do outside the CatholicChurch.

(24:21):
It's just, you know, a lot ofthose guys still wear the hat of
Catholic, which is unique.

Speaker 3 (24:30):
Yeah, okay, does that make sense or answer your
question?

Speaker 2 (24:36):
It does make a lot of sense and it does answer my
question and, kind of, like yousaid, every church there's no
perfect church, at the end ofthe day, right, that's the way
that I've always looked at it.
Somebody once told me no churchis ever going to be run
perfectly because they're allran by humans.
At the end of the day, right,like this church isn't perfect,
my church isn't perfect, youknow, if somebody's listened to
a different church or from adifferent church, it's not
perfect.

Speaker 1 (24:55):
You know it's ran by a human being, right?
Okay, so then let's talkthrough.
Then.
What about praying to saints?
Because that is always a bigone that Christians usually
criticize Catholics for is likewhy are you praying to a saint?
What would your like when youget received that like criticism
?
What's your pushback?

Speaker 2 (25:14):
You know I get that all the time and my initial
response is always okay, if I'masking you to pray for me.
It's kind of like that with asaint, right?
When you tell a saint, hey, I'mstruggling with X, y and Z,
will you also pray for me?
That's the perspective thatI've always approached it with
and I think many other Catholicsapproach it with.
It's the equivalence of askingsomebody else to pray for you,

(25:36):
and also I know a lot ofCatholics they believe that.
I would say we believe a saintis somebody that is very close
to God, right?
So it's like you're askingsomebody who's very close to God
to pray for you to God.
Now, I know that the Christianchurch is more so like you only
pray to God because God is highauthority, like that, right.
And I think the Catholicapproach is we do agree that God

(26:00):
is all authority and he's likethe highest that there obviously
is.
But when it comes to liketalking to saints, it's more so
like saying okay, like will youpray, like for me and talk to
God about this?

Speaker 1 (26:12):
It's kind of like seeing the saints as a as an
intermediary on your behalf totalk to God, because he is.

Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah, an intermediary that's very close to God right
now, like that's the way I knowa lot of Catholics approach and
that's how I was raised, prayingthat way to saints.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
Yeah, and so I think the Christian pushback on that
is from 1 Timothy 2, where itsays for there is one God and
there is one mediator betweenGod and man, the man Christ
Jesus, who gave himself as aransom for all, which is the
testimony given at the propertime.

Speaker 3 (26:44):
But his point is saying that even though there's
one mediator, I mean, obviously,yes, there's one mediator, but
even so, you would still ask meto pray for you.
Sure I would, the differencebeing that I'm alive in the
flesh, with you here, ratherthan Someone has passed away
Dead.
You know, soul in heaven, Ithink.
Like theologically I would go.
There's no example of that inscripture that I'm aware of

(27:10):
Praying to a dead saint.
The only time prayer is uttered, you know, in scripture it's
always directed unto Godpersonally.
And then the other logicalthat's a theological, just a
straight up logical thing wouldbe how would you, you know, in
your understanding of thisdoctrine and this idea, are

(27:30):
saints dead saints?
Are they omniscient?
Are they able to heareveryone's thoughts and prayers?
If one million people pray to asaint at the same time, are
they omniscient?
Are they outside of time?
How do they pray for a millionprayers at the same time and
hear those?
How does all that worklogically?

Speaker 2 (27:50):
I do know that's a very theological question and I
believe that if there is a saintreceiving that many prayers,
then they do hear all thoseprayers and they're able to you
know, pray for you Like.
I do know that, like motherTeresa is an example, like she's
a saint, like lots of peoplesay prayers to her.
You know it's the same thingwith Mary, right, like obviously
Catholics we like say lots ofprayers to Mary, like you know

(28:12):
the hail Mary prayer.
So I think it does operate thatway of like, like they do hear
all the prayers and they do prayfor you, cause, like God is
able to hear, you know,everybody's prayer and he
understands everything thateverybody's going through.
And so I think it's kind oflike the same thing with saints
and like people that you knowCatholics may like pray with is
like that is all being heard bythem and they're able to pass it

(28:35):
over to God.

Speaker 1 (28:37):
Right.

Speaker 3 (28:40):
And I think that's the part where we would go, man
only Scripture would say onlyGod has omniscience.

Speaker 1 (28:45):
You're now tapping into all these people's brains
and maybe you know, a Catholicmight say well in heaven, you're
a lot smarter and your abilityto take in information is a lot
more pure, or whatever.
I just think, probably justgoing from Scripture,
deuteronomy 18, whoever inquiresof the dead is an abomination

(29:13):
to the Lord and you're like,just by that, I wouldn't want to
touch it.
If it's an abomination, likeI'm, like you know, I'm going to
step away from that.
I'm not worshiping, I'm not.
You know, necromancing would belike, you know, love of the
dead.

Speaker 3 (29:30):
Yeah, that's my thing .
There's no positive examples inscripture, or I don't know.
Have you thought about that?
What's your answer to that?

Speaker 2 (29:36):
Yeah, I do think about that quite a bit and I
think the main thing that Ialways think of is just like
that's pretty much just how theCatholic Church was always
raised and how it's always beenbuilt together, and there are
lots of miracles or lots ofstories of people saying prayers
to saints and these miracleshappening.
So I do like to think thatthere could potentially be some

(29:57):
truth to maybe that working out.
But that is one of thequestions I often do think about
.
I think a lot of Catholicsoften think about Is this really
the righteous thing?
And obviously the history ofthe Catholic Church says that
might be what God wants for us,so that's what a lot of people
stick with.

Speaker 1 (30:15):
But that's something that I know some people disagree
on.

Speaker 3 (30:17):
You're wrestling with , which I appreciate, and a lot
of people have believed it for along time.
So, like you do, have that onyour side, yeah, where you're
like, okay, this is somethingpeople have done for a long time
, a long time.
I think that does have someweight, Like when I want to—

(30:40):
dangerous to just, you know,naively dismiss what the church
has taught for a long time.
At the same time, you know, Iwould say, um, it's.
It's also dangerous to assumethe church has always gotten it
right, and so, like when you, ifyou look back and if you study
like the church fathers,medieval theologians and stuff

(31:01):
it's not unanimous about prayingto saints.

Speaker 1 (31:03):
Like this is not something that everyone believed
.

Speaker 3 (31:06):
There are some things that everyone believed and
you're just like, but there's nodoubt about this one.
There's creeds and councilsthat were formed.
There's other ones that arelike well, some people believed
in this and other people didn't.
Well, some people believed inthis and other people didn't.
So praying to saints is one ofthose ones Perpetual virginity
of Mary.
Praying to Mary, praying tosaints, is one that there's not
like unanimous agreement about.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah, I know, that's like the key Every time I talk
to somebody who's not Catholicbut is Christian versus
Catholicism.
That's like the one thing.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
I know that they're completely divided on Like ready
to go.

Speaker 2 (31:39):
It's like they're completely split off on it,
right, like so many catholics Iknow are like, yep, we're
sticking to the saints, we'resticking the tradition.
Then the process are like whoa,like we're not, like we're not
touching that, like obviously,that's like you said, like
scripture kind of goes adifferent way about that.
And then the catholics are like, well, solid scripture I know
we don't always agree with, sothat's a lot of people go back
and forth on.
I do know about.

Speaker 1 (31:55):
Yeah okay, so yeah, so interesting, all right, so
where are you like?
So where are you personally inthis whole faith journey?
And, like you know, becausethis is something I think a lot
of people raise catholic, theystart interacting with the
christian church.
They like a lot of the energy,that there's a good vibe.
Is that the holy spirit or isthat just cool music?

(32:16):
Which one is it?
You know it.
Where are you at right now?

Speaker 2 (32:21):
So this is an interesting question and it's
something that I've spoken withyou about, I've spoken with
other people about.
So there are lots of thingsthat I agree with with both
churches and there are thingsthat I'm not so sure I fully
agree with, like I said, withthe Catholic faith.
I love adoration, I lovemeditation, I love just being in

(32:41):
the church and being able totalk to God.
Something else I love about theCatholic church daily service.
I love daily service.
Getting to receive the Eucharistevery single day is something
that I absolutely love.
I love the.
I'm a historian, right Like Italk about history of, like
baseball bat, like things allday long.
I love the history of theCatholic.
Church, I think the churchesare so beautiful, so I love all

(33:03):
that put together.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yeah, so far we're on the same page.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 (33:07):
If you're comparing a giant, ornate Catholic
cathedral to the building nextto CVS, no offense.
I gotta say I gotta give it tothe Catholic.
Now Protestants do have somebeautiful buildings too.
There are, there are.
Go ahead.

Speaker 2 (33:23):
So I went to school at Catholic University.
Like I said, the Basilica ofthe National Shrine of the
Immaculate Conception If youhaven't had a chance to look at
it one of the most beautifulchurches and I'm actually going
to Rome in a few months oh wow,churches there too.
So nice, like I love thearchitecture, I love the history
behind it, I love just howbeautiful like those churches
are.
So I put all that together andthose are things I love about

(33:44):
the catholic faith.
And then, on the contrary,there are a few things that like
I kind of like wrestle with alittle bit.
Like kind of like the wholesaints conversation, like we
were talking about a few minutesago, like that's something I
kind of go back and forth on.
Um, I also go back and forth onlike the whole um.
You have a giant, a long writtenprayer, and I think that's good
to read a written prayer, but Ithink the most important

(34:06):
prayers truly come from yourheart.
It's like when you fully repentand you're really sorry for
your sins, that's got to comefrom your heart and I think
that's something that is reallyimportant.
I think another thing that Ireally love just about the
Christian church as well, like Isaid earlier, is like like it's
very young, it's very vibrantand like there's such really

(34:27):
great community and it seemslike the people are a lot less.
I guess like strict in the wordis kind of like the right word.
I don't know.
Like I remember one time I wentto confession and the priest
like gave me a very hardconfession.
He, he was like very hard on me.
It's like, look, I know what Idid was wrong, but like I'm
trying to like repent and likefeel like just kind of like like
really bring me down.
I don't know if that's like theway that God fully approaches
things so like.

(34:47):
I think Jesus like he'lldefinitely be hard on you, but
like he's very encouraging andsometimes I feel like the
Catholic faith could do a betterjob of that.
Those are just some things offthe top of my head that like I
think about when it comes tolike where I stand personally.
So it's a lot of prayer beingput into it and I definitely go
back forth on it.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
You're definitely wrestling with it.
It's cool to watch you sort ofin the middle of this, I guess,
wrestling, struggling, trying tofigure out.

Speaker 2 (35:19):
And I think we'd all say, like I love what you said
about adoration.
You just like to go sit in thechurch and kind of look up and
enjoy God.
It's so beautiful, I love that.
Like, literally, when I firstmoved to Austin, I really didn't
know anybody right, and so Iwould spend my Friday nights, my
Saturday nights, my Sundaynights like just sitting in the
Adoration Chapel and like justlike closing my eyes and looking
up and like seeing Jesus rightin front of me and it's like all
that like loneliness I felt wasjust gone, like that was

(35:40):
something that I absolutely lovepersonally and like that's one
of my favorite things about,like you know, being part of the
Catholic faith is being able togo to adoration.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
So is adoration like certain times, or is it just
always?

Speaker 2 (35:52):
open Depends on the church you go to Some churches
they'll have it set so it's openfor a few hours in a certain
day of the week, like somechurch will do like monday
nights, like six to nine.
I personally prefer what'scalled perpetual adoration,
which is pretty much justadoration.
Chapels open all day, every day, and so it's just time for you
to just enter the church andjust sit in front of the

(36:12):
eucharist.
Wow, yeah, and honestly, like Isaid, like when I first moved
to austin, it was very hard onme.
So I'm from Maryland personally, so I moved across the entire
country, so like a cross countrymove where I really don't know
anybody, in a big state likeTexas and big city like Austin,
just like having like communionright there in front of me and
having Jesus right there.

(36:34):
It was so, it was so helpful forme and that really pushed me
through the first few monthshere.
That's awesome.
Wow, it was so helpful for meand that really pushed me
through the first few monthshere.
That's awesome, man.
So that's something I reallylove about the Catholic faith
and, like I said, like dailymass as well, which is something
I really appreciate, and Icould be completely wrong.
So let me know.
Are there Christian churchesthat have daily service, or is
that something that theChristians—.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
No, that's basically a Catholic-only thing.
But listen, I don't thinkanyone's against it.

Speaker 3 (36:55):
Well, the reformers did it, Like the guys you know,
when you look at ProtestantReformation roots again, they
wanted to reform the church.
They wanted to say we've gottenaway from the scriptures.
They weren't trying to innovateand start something new, they
were trying to return to theancient faith and they, you know

(37:15):
, trying to maintain the thingsthat were good and so like daily
services.
So for Calvin in Geneva,switzerland, his whole goal was
like getting what did he say?
A psalm-soaked city was hisvision.
For Geneva Was where, you know,every single day, there were

(37:37):
church bells, there waspreaching, there was psalm
singing, um, and so by the endof his life, he achieved that.
Geneva became a city like thatUm and, you know, eventually
caved and uh, uh, but for a time, you know, it was really this,
really this beautiful thing thatmaintained, you know, I would
say, like the best parts of um,that maintained, you know, I

(38:03):
would say like the best parts ofCatholicism, while reforming
the doctrine to be more in, youknow, alignment with scripture.
And so there is a history ofthat in Protestant churches
today, like even in Americanhistory, early American history,
it was way more common to havemultiple services Sunday morning
, sunday evening, midweek,prayer services Today.
Multiple services Sundaymorning Sunday evening.

(38:23):
Midweek prayer services.
Today it's like the church hasgotten a lot weaker in this
sense of you know, you meetSunday mornings for an hour and
that's about it for the week.
Maybe a small group, but thechurch has ditched a lot of
things in an attempt to like oh,we don't want to bog down your
schedule with too much stuff.
In an attempt to like, oh, wedon't want to bog down your
schedule with too much stuff.
And the result, I think, islike your people are falling

(38:43):
away from faith because they'renot being trained and discipled.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
So one thing I will say and I was going to ask why
that might be the case but likepeople being super busy, I tell
you I get that.
Something I find veryinteresting with the Catholic
faith I personally go to dailymass, or at least I try to go to
daily service.
There's a lot of people thereand I know that people are on
fire for it.
So when it comes to peoplemight be busy, I personally

(39:06):
think it would be really greatfor Christian churches just to
kind of go back to thattradition of cell branches every
single day.

Speaker 3 (39:11):
Hey, I'm with you on that.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
Hey, me too.
Let's do it.
I think that would be a reallyawesome thing.
I'm with you on that.
I Noon services and that wayyou take the Lord's Supper, you
feed on Jesus and then head backto work.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
Boom yeah, and I know that there are lots of great
Bible study groups and lots ofgreat prayer groups in the
churches and stuff, and so Ijust think it would be very
interesting to see that kind ofimpact.
But that's one of my favoritethings about being Catholic, so
a lot of Catholicism.

Speaker 3 (39:34):
Roman Catholicism is like there's no apology about.
Church is the center of yourlife, right?
Whereas in the Protestantevangelical modern church today
it's way more like church iskind of on the sidelines yeah.
And I think that's a seriouserror that we really need to
correct in like modern dayProtestant church is like church
needs to be the center of yourlife, like return in your own

(39:57):
personal life.
And culturally, like you know,we've lost.
We were just talking about thisearlier in New York.
You went from early America,new York church bells ringing to
say hey, it's time for prayer,it's time for church, and then
secularism rising and gettingrid of that.
To where now you've got theMuslim call to prayer over the

(40:17):
loudspeaker hat, which Catholicswould say, I don't know, it's
no problem.
But, Protestants are like, hey,this used to be a Christian city
and now it's a Muslim city andyou know there's a great need
for the church to really, kindof like, be brought back into
the center of life and cultureand society, and I think
Protestants really need toembrace that instead of being

(40:39):
afraid of that.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
That's my take on it and it goes back to the whole
point of like no church is ranperfectly right, because we're
all run by human beings and Ithink you know, I think all of
us here can agree like that'ssomething that the Protestant
church can improve on right, and, like I said earlier, there are
things I think the Catholicchurch can also improve on
because it's obviously run byhumans.

Speaker 3 (41:00):
I would still love to see the Catholic Church
reformed to conformity withScripture.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
We would think about putting some sleeper cells in
the Catholic Church.
And then all of a sudden youbecome Pope.

Speaker 3 (41:13):
And then you say ex-cathedra, sola scriptura.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (41:18):
And then boom're all, we got all aligned, bam yeah,
yeah, honestly, my thought hasalways been like, I think, like
we're all christians, we alllove jesus very much, we all
believe in him and I think, likejesus doesn't want there to be
this giant divide between, likeI think he wants all of his
children to come together and,like, love him and celebrate him

(41:38):
and honor him together.

Speaker 3 (41:39):
On that note amen Jesus' prayer.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
John 17,.
The church would be one.

Speaker 3 (41:44):
I would say though I have Presbyterian friends who I
wouldn't—we do churchdifferently.
We have different views onbaptism.
Presbyterians baptize babies,we're Baptists.
We baptize believers.
Different view on baptism I canbe one with them in heart say
we belong to the Catholic church, not the Roman Catholic church,
but Catholic, meaning universalchurch.

(42:05):
We are brothers in Christ, yetwe can't really be in the same
church together because wepractice baptism differently and
so.
I think denominations can stillhave different traditions and
ways of practicing the faith,while still having a Catholic
spirit, a, a Catholicity, aoneness.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
And I do think that's getting back to the different
orders of the Catholic Church.
It's the same thing.
You wouldn't have a Franciscanworshiping at a Jesuit Sure.
They could worship.
They could probably docommunion together, no problem,
but they wouldn't be involved inthe church in the same way in
the leadership structure.

Speaker 2 (42:43):
Yeah, yeah, it's very interesting.
I think it really is a goodpoint and I think it's totally
cool to worship differently, aslong as we're worshiping the
same God.
I think that's the mostimportant thing at the end of
the day.
I do know that there are someCatholics and I'm sure there are
probably some Protestants whosay this about Catholics, but I
know some Catholics are like youneed to be Catholic to go to

(43:05):
heaven right, that's theofficial teaching.

Speaker 3 (43:07):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, unless you're.
Muslim.
Yeah, that's where it's kind ofconfusing.

Speaker 2 (43:14):
And I don't know if I fully agree with that.
But then also I don't know whatthe Protestant view Are they
like?
Do Catholics need to beProtestant to go to paradise, or
is that a little bit of adifferent?

Speaker 1 (43:25):
No, it's not based on your denomination.
It's based on did you placeyour faith in Christ alone for
your salvation?
And if you think you broughtanything to the table, I'm not
going to say you don't have tohave a perfect theology to be
saved, because God chose you andyou're like Jesus.

(43:45):
You saved me.
And then you probably got likeI always look back to in the Old
Testament 1 Kings, 2 Kings.
There'd be some bad or goodkings who didn't take down the
high places of worship thatJudah was supposed to take down.
They left it up there, whetherit was fear of man or whether,
like I'll get to that laterwhatever it was, they never took

(44:07):
it down.
And God said in his words thatthey were good kings, but they
didn't do this thing.
And so I think you can havesome parts of your life.
They're not alignedtheologically.
That are on the more of theminor issues, but on the primary
thing did Jesus come, die onthe cross for you?
Is he the son of God who gavehis life for you and died for
your sins, rose from the dead?

(44:27):
I think that's primary.
If you get away from that, ifyou're saved by anything else
other than Jesus, then that'sthe part where I don't know if
you're saved.

Speaker 3 (44:38):
Yeah, yeah, what the Protestant teach, the Protestant
teaching about what theCatholic church is like.
So we still, you know, we wouldconfess the apostles creed.
Okay, and you know the, the,the holy.
Well, we talk about one churchapostolic, holy Catholic.
You know Nicene creed, apostlescre.
One church apostolic holyCatholic, nicene Creed,

(44:59):
apostles' Creed.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
We affirm all those things.

Speaker 3 (45:01):
Athanasian Creed.
But when we say Catholic wemean universal meaning, anyone
from all times and places whohave called upon Jesus as their
Savior, and so that wouldinclude Roman Catholics who have
called upon Jesus.
I would say I believe thatthere are people who go to a
Roman Catholic church and havesincere faith in Jesus but

(45:25):
actually disagree with RomanCatholic doctrine.
That's where they go to churchand that's how they met Jesus.
So I would say I disagree.
I think Roman Catholic doctrineis false, like saying that
you're saved by your works andyour faith together, or by
saying Muslims and Christiansworship the same God.

(45:47):
I think that doctrine is false,but I do think someone can be
in a Roman Catholic church andbe saved.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
It does make complete sense.
And one thing that I think,like the whole notion of saying,
okay, you have to be Catholicto like be saved, I think that
there are some flaws in thatargument as well, like outside
of, like the fact that it'spretty extreme, but also, like
not all Catholics are veryconsistent with their faith,
like they're called cradleCatholics, where, like they only

(46:13):
go to service, like Christmas,like all that times, right?
And something that I always kindof go back and forth with on
people is like does CatholicChurch really say that those
people are saved?
Necessarily Because it's likethe Catholic Church teaches,
you're supposed to go to Massevery single week, right, that's
like a requirement, and so Ithink that's kind of like a
little— To maintain yoursalvation, exactly Because

(46:33):
that's a dispensation of grace.
Exactly, and I think that'swhere, like, there's a little
bit of like a hole in.
It is like okay, if you'regonna say all catholics are
going to paradise, you need tobe catholic to go to paradise.
Like what about those cradlecatholics?

Speaker 1 (46:44):
like I think that there's a little bit of a hole
in that, in that regard and Ithink, to be fair, the prior to
vatican ii, it was very muchlike that, and I think some
people didn't get the memo onvatican ii even yet, and uh, and
so they kind of still believewhat was taught, for, you know,
hundreds and hundreds andhundreds and hundreds of years,
vatican II comes, they changeeverything.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
Yeah, because before Vatican II it was outside the
church.
No salvation.
Vatican II is where it was likeactually just do your best Do
your best yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
And so there's part of it where you're like was that
the Catholic Church crateringto the culture?
As far as like—I'm not sayingthey were cratering the culture,
but did they compromise to kindof like I don't know change
their image?

Speaker 3 (47:32):
This is Catechism of the Catholic Church, article 847
.
This affirmation is not aimedat those who, through no fault
of their own, do not know Christand his church.
Those who, through no fault oftheir own, do not know the
gospel of Christ or his church,but who nevertheless seek God
with a sincere heart and, movedby grace, try in their actions

(47:53):
to do his will as they know it,through the dictates of their
conscience, those too mayachieve eternal salvation.
This says you don't even have toknow the gospel or believe in
the gospel.
You don't have to personallyknow Jesus.
All you have to do is try yourbest to seek God and you're
saved.

Speaker 1 (48:09):
And if you know, like I know myself, I don't really
know if I'm trying my best.

Speaker 3 (48:14):
Sometimes I'm like am .

Speaker 1 (48:15):
I trying my best.
I'm not.
Am I that sincere?
But I know my heart, my heart'swicked, my heart will think of
ways to kind of do the almostfair sequel thing.
I'll look the part and then domy own thing.
How can I get the most out?
But if I have a relationshipwith one true God, now I'm
interacting with him throughChrist.
And again, I think that's whatmakes it confusing, because now

(48:36):
it's like the try your best islike what's the point of mission
?
What's the point of goingaround the globe?
But because Jesus didn't sayjust like hey, tell everyone,
try their best.
He said go and make disciplesof all nations, baptizing them
in the name of the Father andthe Son, the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe allthat I have commanded you, lo,
I'm with you always, even theend of the age.

(48:56):
And Paul, I mean.

Speaker 3 (48:57):
Romans 10,.
If you confess with your mouthJesus is Lord, believe in your
heart.
God raised him from the dead.
You'll be saved.
He goes.
How are they going to?
You know faith comes by hearing, hearing through the word of
Christ.
How can they hear without apreacher?
And how can you know theypreach unless they are sent
Right?
The whole point is that ifpeople don't hear the gospel,

(49:18):
they have no hope of being saved.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
Yeah.
And also I look at like thestory of, like the good thief on
the cross, like Jesus didn'task him hey, like what's your
denomination or what's yourbackground, like because he said
like hey, like this is the sonof God, jesus is like you're
going to be in paradise one day.
So like kind of going back tolike the last question that was
asked was like you know, thatwas asked was like where am I

(49:40):
standing?
I think that's a certain areawhere I think we can kind of
clean up as a.
Catholic church on it, because Ithink that there are definitely
clearly some holes in thatpotentially All right, let's go
to.

Speaker 1 (49:46):
I'm going to change subjects completely on you.
You sent some questions in.
I thought we'd go through someof these.

Speaker 2 (49:51):
Absolutely so.
I know that a key theme thatwe've been talking about in the
church is just around givingright.
So I think of all thesehypotheticals and I hear all
these different situations forgiving right.
One of the key like themes Ihave is like like, what is
what's god's stance on certainareas?
Right, so let's say likeobviously I think we can all

(50:12):
agree giving is great and god'sencouraging us to do it.
But my question would be likedo you think god values giving a
very small fraction of yourincome the same way he would
value giving a large amount?
Or what do you think God'sstance is on that specifically?

Speaker 1 (50:29):
Yeah, I think this is where I think 2 Corinthians 9,
7, which we talked about eachone must give what he has
decided in his heart, notreluctantly or under compulsion,
for God loves a true forgiver.
So whenever God got excitedabout the widow's two mites,
like she gave all she had, Ithink God was pleased by that.

(50:51):
But I also think God is pleasedby it when you give to the
measure of faith that you'vebeen gifted, you give the best
you can, and then God's pleasedby that.
And so because for some peoplewho have been selfish their
whole entire life, who said I'mnever going to give to the
church, and then all of a sudden, maybe through the message on
Sunday or they're reading theword, they're like I need to
start giving and it's such a bigdeal for them to give anything.

(51:15):
And they there's a dollar,dollar, right, that's a big step
of faith which might thencatalyze further giving.
So I think it's hard to say like, is the fraction, the amount,
that of, there's the fraction ofsomeone's gift, gift the thing?
Because then some, some personmight give 20 just to say, hey,
I gave 20.
You know, like, look at me, I'ma 20 percenter.

(51:35):
And now which one's the betterone.
That's what makes it super hardto figure out, and I think this
is why, specifically in the NewTestament, god doesn't give a
percentage.
He does in the Old Testament.
Remember it was 10% for theLevites, 10% for national feasts
, for parties, which is funny tothink about giving 10% of your

(51:56):
income for the big parties,which I love that and then 10%
every three years for the poor.
So you're technically supposedto be giving 23%, 23 and a third
percent every year.
Now granted a lot of that wasalso a system that also had your
taxes paid by.
It was the clergy, the stateand the church were one.
But at the same time you'restill giving to that degree to

(52:19):
God and I think that was ahealthy thing.
But now I think what thequestion is for now, what is the
right spot?
I always throw 10% out there asa good place to start, but at
the same time, if someone givesI think I mentioned, you hear me
like somebody gave $2 and thatwas where they were Sweet, sweet

(52:40):
man, just just move me that hewould give, be so proud of
giving his $2.
That to me was so powerful Iwas, I was, in fact I started
tearing up on stage thinkingabout it.
I think that's what can happenis that we don't, we miss out.
I don't know what that guymakes.
I'm sure he makes.
That's not his last $2.

(53:00):
Um, but I think it wassignificant for him to start
giving and I think for a lot ofpeople, just the, the, the start
of like, of saying of like,looking at that I'm a manager of
God's money versus I'm an ownerof my money, and that just
shift changed the way you vieweverything and then also it
takes away that scarcitymentality.

(53:22):
That's not just um.
It takes away the scarcitymentality and you kind of think
of terms of God has all that Ineed and more you want to jump
on that.

Speaker 3 (53:32):
Yeah, I think.
Uh, you know the widow examplethat you gave.
The definition of generosity isnot the amount given, amount of
money given, but the amount offaith required to give it.
He was amazed at her faith.
She gave all she had, while therich people put in large sums.

(53:52):
So what's praised?
Not the financial amount, butthe amount of faith required to
give it.
So faith-filled giving.
You brought up 2 Corinthians 9,right, Cheerful giving that
comes from the heart, a decisionfrom the heart.
I think those are the major,like emphases of the New

(54:14):
Testament.
But I agree.
But I agree.
There's from Old Testament toNew, there is a pattern of a
tithe being a normal kind ofnumber to give.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
Yeah, If you're looking for a percent, Right If
you're looking for, like youknow, because it's kind of like.

Speaker 3 (54:29):
It's like a just fair amount.
You know, even before the titheis instituted there's a tithe,
yeah, you have like.
Abraham paying a tithe toMelchizedek.
You have Abraham paying a titheto Melchizedek, where it's like
this is the right thing to do,to offer this tithe before it
was even a law.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
Yeah, it does.
And I guess, kind of like anadditional question that I would
have on top of that is, let'ssay, like we're obviously
talking about giving financiallyand obviously I think that
there are multiple ways to giveand I think giving financially
we're all called to do.
But let's say somebodyhypothetically loses their job.
They're basically like Job andthey just lose a bunch.
Do you guys think that Godcalls us to continue giving that

(55:09):
same percentage, or do youthink it kind of goes back to
the whole point of givinganything?

Speaker 1 (55:14):
It's percentage of what.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
Percentage of your income.

Speaker 1 (55:16):
technically, so then, if you have no income, what's
your percentage?

Speaker 2 (55:18):
zero, right, yeah, then yeah, so like god, just
when I and I guess like mythought process would be like
you give in different ways, justaside financially right sure,
sure, sure.

Speaker 1 (55:27):
But I do think financial, like at that, that
point, let's say, if you're aneed, then the church gives to
you.
Yeah, right like that, thatbecomes like, which is why we
have a strong benevolenceprogram here.
That and the catholic church,they have a great one, like you
know, like that's where you wantto be able to give generously
to people that are in need,because without that then you're

(55:48):
like that's the whole point ofthe church.

Speaker 2 (55:50):
That makes sense.
Another question I have aboutgiving, and this is something
that I kind of go back and forthon.
Obviously, god's calling all ofus to.
Yeah, there are some churchesthat are in hot water, right.
Obviously, a lot of Catholicchurches are in hot water, a lot
of scandals in the Catholicchurch too.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
All across every.
It doesn't have to be religion.
You've got a scandal.
Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (56:11):
Do you think God calls us to give to churches
that are in scandals and in hotwater?
Oh man hot water oh man, or like, does the bible say much about
that specifically?
Obviously there's story ofjesus like destroying the temple
because you know it's becomemore of a business rather than a
place to worship god.
But, like, if a church is inlike hot water and they're just
like known for not doing thingsthe way god wants it to,

(56:31):
obviously we're called to likegive to churches and stuff, so
would just be interesting to see, like like your guys' thoughts
and perspectives on that.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
What do you think about that?

Speaker 3 (56:39):
Yeah.
So if it's a true church, let'ssay it's a true church which,
okay, the reformers would definethe true church in this way
Right preaching the gospel,right administration of the
sacraments and right practice ofchurch discipline, then you can
have a church where it fallsinto a public scandal because of

(57:01):
the sins of the leaders.
But the scriptures give youinstructions on how to handle
sin of leaders.
You know, 1 Timothy will talkabout how to rebuke elders who
are in sin publicly.
Matthew 18 talks about how toapproach someone about their sin
to bring them before the church.
There's instructions to where achurch can handle a scandal

(57:24):
well, if they follow thescriptures and you can still
give to your church knowing that, hey, you have leaders who have
sinned and they need to bedisciplined and removed from
ministry.
But then hire a new pastor, youknow, and be ready to, you know
, kind of move forward as achurch with a new pastor.

(57:48):
The church doesn't have to diebecause of the sins of a leader,
but oftentimes they do, whichis, you know, really sad.
The leader falls and obviouslyit's very devastating and
sometimes churches aren'tequipped to handle that well or
the damage is just too much andyou just got to shut the whole
thing down.
But I don't think you have to.
I think you can still say, hey,we've got this pastor who
sinned, but we have these otherfive elders who are walking the

(58:11):
church through, handling thiswell, and we can still give to
the ministry of this church,trusting that God's going to
bring us through this.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
It does make sense and I totally see what you mean
and I think it's more so kind of, like you said, like looking at
the elders that are associatedwith the church as well.
So, and you guys might know so,the way it works in the
Catholic church is when youdonate, a lot of the money that
you donate goes to what's calledthe archdiocese.
So basically like you have yourchurch that's in a city and then
there's an archdiocese thatoversees all the churches within

(58:40):
that city.
Right, some archdioceses.
They'll spread that moneyevenly throughout all the other
churches, and I think that'ssomething that, personally, I
think is great, because you'renot putting all of your money
towards one church and otherchurches.

Speaker 3 (58:52):
You're kind of being left hungry because as you might
see— Some denominationsfunction the same way.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
Exactly, and I think that's great.
I absolutely love that.
So, like that's what, that'swhy I do find it kind of
interesting.

Speaker 1 (59:04):
I know that there are some other churches where
they're in hot water and it'slike are you supposed to give to
like those churches where it'slike you know they might not be?
Doing things right, but it'salways you want to.
You want to, I mean, you wantto be a good wouldn't, and if
there's no hope of it changingthen you should leave that
church and give your money to achurch that's healthy and right?

(59:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
But I would say, let's sayyou're at a church and
corruption was found and they'readdressing it, then don't leave
and don't give up on it,because they're doing.

Speaker 2 (59:38):
They're trying to resolve that problem Exactly.

Speaker 1 (59:40):
It's not like in the New Testament.
You've got Ananias and Sapphira.
They have some giving issues.
They want some credit for somegiving they didn't actually give
and then the Holy Spirit killedthem.
So you have money issues in theearly church.
You have money issues todaybecause money, it's the root of
all kinds of evil.

(01:00:00):
It just truly that greed.

Speaker 3 (01:00:02):
Love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.
Right, right.

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
So the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil
.
And so I think that that's whathappens when you get focused on
money you can get sucked downthat hole real quick.
But yeah, I think that thereyou probably only know about it
if that church is addressing it,unless you're going through
churches' books, which is, youknow that'd be cool.
And then you're a true goodsteward and you've researched

(01:00:26):
your church and you know whereall the money is going.
That's good.
We have several financecommittees that are going
through.
We have one finance committee,several people on the finance
committee that just meticulouslygo through everything we spend,
which I'm so grateful for.
But, to your point, this is oneof the things why this is my

(01:00:46):
own personal thing of havingchurch plants that are campuses
as opposed to its own individualchurch, so you can do exactly
what you just talked about Ifthere's one heavily resourced
church, you can give it toanother church and help
redistribute wealth, especiallyif that church is in an
impoverished part of the city,and that makes it super

(01:01:07):
challenging, and I think that'sone of the things that I've
always been moved by on how theCatholic church does it, because
it feels like every church iswell-funded, and I think if
there was a problem in theProtestant movement is that we
can be like one of those richISDs that don't share money, and

(01:01:28):
now your school is the bestschool, with all the best
teachers and all the best things, and so I think there's a
potential to do that, which iswhy I feel like church planning
is the hope of the world, bysending your best people out,
although continuing to fund it,I think, is the thing that I
think would be super helpfulwhen you have different
expressions of the church allover the place, for that very
reason, where you could makesure that everyone was taken

(01:01:49):
care of that on the staffs,staffs, staffs, staffs of those
churches, and then theministries of those churches
would be like, um, uh, equallyrepresented.

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
Yeah, and I honestly, one thing I really do like
about this church specificallyis, like you can definitely tell
like the money's going towardsthe right direction, like
obviously, like we're planting anew church, like I think that's
like a great way to spend money.
It's not like you know theselavish lifestyles.
It seems like we're putting itmore towards God and I think
that's what God's obviouslycalling all of us to do with the
money that we receive.

(01:02:20):
It's like reinvesting in thechurch and that's how you grow
his kingdom.
It's kind of like a businessthe most successful businesses,
pretty much, are investingthemselves.
They make money, they keepinvesting in it, they keep
growing and growing.
Exactly that's kind investingin it and it keeps growing and
growing.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
Like, exactly Like that's like the way kind of like
the way churches can work, likeyou obviously get into it, so
that's really good.

Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
I really like that.

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
Oh yeah, Keep going.
I love these questions.

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Um, I guess, like anotherquestion that I have too is like
, like I said earlier, I thinkthat like god is actually
calling everybody to givefinancially, or like if somebody

(01:03:03):
, let's say somebody is likethey're running a bible study,
right, they're like doinghomeless food runs or something,
right, they do all these things, but one thing that they don't
do is they don't givefinancially.
Do you think that is fulfillingfull righteousness of actually
giving enough to the church?

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think each person isdifferent.
If the person was reallystruggling, had no income, then
no.
But if they're making money,then give to the church.
I know that's.
But if they're making money,then give to the church.
I know that's.
And because, like that, whatthat shows is what you're trying

(01:03:40):
to model for people is youtrust god, all right, but then
more importantly is that whatyou're revealing to yourself is
that there's no scarcity.
And I think the problem that wehave, especially for young
adults young adults adults Ialways get this ask can I just
donate my time?
You know, I give uh, 2.4 hoursa day, uh, to the church, and

(01:04:01):
then I'm like 2.4 hours a day.
When you think about that,we're talking what?
Uh, you know, you're almosttalking about a serious
part-time job of like 17 hours aweek, right, no one's doing
that.
All right, okay, few people aredoing that.
Sure, sure, all right.
So what does that mean, right?
So I think it's like now we'regetting into.

(01:04:22):
Is it an either or I?
Just when someone says I tithemy time, I usually go.
That person probably has aheart problem of materialism
that they don't want to give up.
Usually I can't say that forsure because up.
Usually I can't say that forsure, because each one must give
what he's decided in his heart,not reluctantly or under
compulsion, for God loves tocheerful give.

Speaker 3 (01:04:39):
I think Holland you've dealt with this a bunch.
Yeah, yeah, I did young adultministry here for years and that
was a constant conversationthat came up was I tithe my time
?
And it was like that's a goodthing to do.
It's not a substitute forfinancial giving.
Galatians 6 says let the onewho has taught the word share

(01:05:00):
all good things with the one whoteaches.
And there's a principle thatPaul brings up in multiple times
in Corinthians that if you arereceiving spiritual things, it's
right and good to bless withmaterial things that you are

(01:05:22):
receiving teaching from others,to bless those that you're
receiving teaching from,referring specifically to those
who have a pastoral authorityover you, that you are in
covenant relationship with themembership of a church, that
they teach you and you supportthem.
And so giving of your financialresources to support the
livelihood of the pastors andteachers of your local church is

(01:05:45):
a right, good, biblical thingthat I would encourage everyone
to do.
Whether you tithe your time ornot, it's really saying yes, you
should tithe your time.
Yes, you should serve yourchurch.
You should tithe your time.
Yes, you should serve yourchurch.
Um, you should tithe your money.
Yes, you should support yourchurch and its leaders and
ministries.
Um and uh, it's, it's a.

(01:06:05):
It's a good thing that God sayswhen you trust him in that he's
going to bless you Like youdon't have to worry that you're
not going to have enough.
That was the thing with so manyyoung adults.
Is like man, if I give that,I'm not going to have enough,
even though God promises, if youseek first his kingdom, he's
going to give you everything youneed.

Speaker 2 (01:06:22):
He's a good father, so a lot of what we're talking
about right now is givingfinancially.

Speaker 3 (01:06:27):
And I think that's great.

Speaker 2 (01:06:28):
I think it makes a lot of sense and I think
Catholics, christians, we canall agree on that right, yep,
yep.
When I think of giving right,I'm thinking of giving
financially.
Yep, I'm giving.
I'm thinking of giving withlike time and service Yep.
What are some other ways thatwe can give as Christians?

Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
Yeah, I think you mentioned prayer, right.
I think giving yourself, likegoing on mission, whether that's
to the homeless, like aministry of presence, is a big
deal, but then also ministry tothe saints.
So when you and this all comesinto time right, because it's
either money or time I don'tthink there's anything else
beyond that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:04):
A lot of times people say time, talent and treasure,
and so talent, meaning yourskills and gifts and abilities,
you may have so like.
We have some women in ourchurch who are amazing cooks,
have so like.
We have some women in ourchurch who are amazing cooks,
and so I'm also the lead pastorof Eastside Community Church, a
Wells Branch church plant, andso I'm here a couple days a week
, also lead pastor of Eastside.

(01:07:25):
And so at Eastside we have acouple of women who they will
love to cook tacos for ouroutreaches that we do, and
that's a blessing.
They offer something that youknow they'll cook a hundred
tacos that we get to hand out topeople at the laundromat once a
month when we do our laundryoutreach.
And that's offering.
That is time, and treasure isfinances and time, but it's also

(01:07:48):
a skill that they have.
We, you know.
So people who have skills ofdifferent trades cooking, sewing
, people who have mechanicknowledge, people who have tech,
av knowledge Does that makesense it?

Speaker 2 (01:08:01):
does, and I like all those different topics.
You know, as a man, there aresome things I wish I would be
able to give.
I wish I could give to themusic ministry.
Spoiler alert I'm not good atsinging, so I'm not that's one
like area I unfortunately can'tgive in, but like I totally get
what you mean, like there's somany different ways that like we
can give and I think that'syeah, we're really the band up
here?

Speaker 1 (01:08:22):
there's only one, that's one.
Only one that's paid is codyand uh, but everyone else is
just giving offering theirtalent.
Yeah, and that's a beautifulthing, and so if you ever see
somebody not up there, you'relike, like huh, we need to start
recruiting for that position.

Speaker 2 (01:08:34):
Let's go.

Speaker 1 (01:08:35):
Right, you know, so that becomes a big deal.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:39):
Yeah, what else?
No, this is so good man.
Yeah, no, I definitely agree.
I mean obviously like and Ithink too that there are so many
different ways that, like, wecan try to get creative and give
.
Like church, I'm going to starttrying to give to the deaf
ministry and start interpretingnow.

Speaker 1 (01:08:54):
I'm super excited, bro.
Both his parents are deaf.

Speaker 2 (01:08:56):
Wow, yeah, yeah.
Both my parents are deaf, sofully fluent in sign language.
Actually, it was funny.
Once I first came to church,some of the first people I got
to meet were deaf people, and sowe were communicating and they
told me they were like we haveno male interpreters here.

Speaker 1 (01:09:11):
I think they were saying and I should totally
change.
Let's go.

Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
I did the kids ministry last week and I'm like
you know what, maybe every otherweekend I'll start doing some
deaf ministry.
So I'm like you know what, hey,it's cool that I can give to
the deaf ministry.
Unfortunately, I can't give tothe music ministry because I'm
not good at the guitar orsinging or anything like that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:30):
Well, deaf ministry.
So just so you know, almost 90%of deaf people are unreached,
right?
Isn't that like some crazy statlike that?

Speaker 3 (01:09:39):
I don't know, they don't know Jesus.
I've heard something like thatbefore.
I don't know the exact number.

Speaker 1 (01:09:53):
It's one of the most unreached populations in our
culture, as far as they haven'theard the good news because no
one's been sent to them, becausefor the most part, it's a
ministry that no one knows.
It's like if you don't know howto play the guitar, you can't
be in the band.
Well, anybody here know how tospeak sign language.
Well, it just so happens.
At our church we have threepeople that spoke sign language
and they're like we want to dothis for the church, for the
ministry, so they volunteertheir time to sign.

(01:10:16):
And now we have a fledglingdeaf ministry where 10 people
are involved with but it'd besweet for you to come because
there's a young, fit dudesigning.
Everyone's going to be like Idon't know what he's saying, but
I'm going to go listen to him.
I think that's a powerful thing.
And so I think, leaning intothat, I'm like the he's saying,
but I'm going to listen to him.
You know, I think that's apowerful thing and so I think,

(01:10:36):
leaning into that, I'm like theLord's leading for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
Yeah, I'm super thankful.
And the 90% stat I didn't knowthat was the exact stat, but I
believe it.
A lot of deaf people I knowunfortunately don't have a
strong relationship with Jesusand I think that's one of the
coolest things I think about myparents specifically is like
their love for jesus is likeit's on fire, right, and despite
the fact they're deaf and theyreally haven't had many people
like in their lives, that likecan communicate with them, that

(01:11:00):
share the love for jesus, likejust the fact that like they're
so like loving and passionateabout, like their faith is, I
think, like such a really greatblessing and I think, too, like
just having that like allows forsuch curiosity and really great
conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:11:13):
I just looked at the stat 98 of the day is as
unreached man.
Only 2% of deaf people areChristians.

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
I think it was about a year ago I went to Gallaudet
university, which is a deafcollege in Washington DC, and I
didn't see any like churches onthe campus or like anywhere near
the campus.
Like wow, they're just.
There's really no environmentaround.
I remember, like I used to funfact about myself I used to play
baseball back when I was inhigh school and there was a deaf
guy on our team and I playedcenter field and so every time

(01:11:42):
like the pitcher would come outto like talk to him, I would
come sprinting in from centerfield to like interpret for him
on the mound.
But anyways, like this guy wasa good friend of mine and like I
used to tell him like how'syour relationship with Jesus?
And he's like I don't believein Jesus, like I just was never
raised and his entire friendgroup, like his family, all like
deaf people, they don't have arelationship with Jesus.
And I find it so interestingthat there's really no like

(01:12:02):
reason, like I don't understand,like why they choose not to
have that Well.

Speaker 1 (01:12:06):
I mean, if you think about it you love about our
church is we're so welcoming?
That's because we know how totalk to you.
We're not unfunctional humans.
But when it comes to a deafperson, you feel like I'm going
to say it wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:12:20):
I'm just like that's about all I got.
Hey, that was good.
Good morning, I saw that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:25):
You know, that's about all I got, and I think
when someone like you is there,that's a game changer, because
now it's like you've opened uptheir eyes to like oh God is
here for me, because my peopleare here yeah exactly.
So I feel you know if I yeah,that's something to give that is
huge.
That's a great point.

Speaker 3 (01:12:44):
That's such a great example to bring up is saying
like, yeah, we give financially,give our time and serving and
serving, but also, like you havea talent, a skill, something
that you know how to do thatmost people don't know how to do
, that can really bless peopleand introduce them to Christ.
It's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:13:01):
Yeah, super, it's pretty awesome.
I'm super thankful for that.

Speaker 1 (01:13:04):
I'm going to put the deaf ministry in touch with you
so that they know to hound youabout it.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:11):
I did the kids ministry last weekend.
That was a lot, so now I'm likeall right, the deaf ministry.
I don't think it's going tocause as much like.
Oh my gosh like wowness to mebut I'm definitely ready for it,
really excited about it soit'll be a lot of fun, I think.

Speaker 1 (01:13:24):
Yeah, awesome, okay, what else?
What's your next question?
I'm loving the questions here?

Speaker 2 (01:13:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
So.
A question I have too, too, isabout having your soul fully
cleansed, right?
Yeah, yeah.
So with the Catholic Church,what we believe in is you commit
a sin, you go to confession,and then the priest will give
you an act of repentance.
Right, it might be we need youto say a full rosary, we might

(01:13:49):
need you to say three Hail Maryswhatever it might be right, act
of contrition.
Act of contrition exactly, andof the patrician, exactly.
And then, once you do that,your soul is completely cleansed
.
When it comes to the Protestantfaith, do they have, like,
obviously, you confess your sinto somebody.
Is there any more after that,or is your soul considered
cleansed after that?
Do you want to talk about thata little bit?

Speaker 1 (01:14:10):
Yeah, do you want to jump on it first?

Speaker 3 (01:14:12):
First, john 1.9,.
If we confess our sins, he isfaithful and just to forgive us
our sins and to cleanse us fromall unrighteousness.
So we would say that ourcleansing comes from Jesus when
we confess to him.
And there's also James 5.16,confess your sins to one another

(01:14:35):
and pray for each other thatyou may be healed.
There is a healing that comesthrough confession to others.
Now we would take, though, toone the Catholics would take the
confess your sins to oneanother and apply that to
confession to a priest.
We would take it to confessyour sins to one another, other
brothers in the faith, notnecessarily a, you know, a

(01:14:58):
formal officer of a church.
Strictly, you know, it doesn'tjust have to be a pastor or
something, but you can justconfess to your brothers in the
faith and pray for each other,and God heals you through that.
And so we would still agree,though, though, that repentance
must follow confession.
Confession is here's what I'vedone wrong.

(01:15:21):
You're bringing that out of thedarkness into the light.
Repentance is actually turningaway from that thing, and so
confession and repentance gotogether.
But yeah, whereas in Catholics,like you're saying, a priest
will give you a specific, whatdid you say?
Like three Hail Marys.

Speaker 2 (01:15:40):
Say a rosary, say a rosary say three Hail Marys, and
once you do that, then yoursins are fully forgiven and your
soul is cleansed we don't havean equivalent to that.

Speaker 3 (01:15:48):
It's more of the.
You need to repent from thisand walk in, holiness and I
think the reason why it's thatspecific.

Speaker 1 (01:15:58):
so, like what we do, you need to repent from this and
walk in holiness.
Yeah, and I think the reasonwhy it's that specific, so like
what we do.
And now I'm moving fromScripture, which is 1 John 1, 9,
James 5, 16.
If we confess our sin, God isfaithful and just to forgive our
sins and cleanse us from allunrighteousness.
That's 1 John 1, 9.
And then the James 5, 16,confess your sins one to another
and pray for each other thatyou may be healed.
So you move from thosescriptural things.

(01:16:19):
But then what Christians do islike hey, I need you to ask me
about this.
This is the one part I feel likeevangelical churches for the
most part.
I'm not going to blanket it,but this is the part we've done
well in of stealing from theCatholic church.
Hey, we need to confess tosomebody.
It doesn't have to be a priest,it has to be somebody, but then
that person needs to come afterme and hold me accountable.

(01:16:39):
Hey, so you've been strugglingwith lust.
How's that going?
Like that's the difference oflike it's a pursuit of holiness
amongst the community of faiththat I think you see from a.
Again, I don't want to blanketit on any direction, but that's

(01:17:00):
what my hope is that we havethis connection with one another
where you are so real, and so Igive the questions that I need
to be asked to my accountabilitypartner, so he's leaning into
that.
Are you disciplining yourchildren in anger?
Are you honoring your wife?
Are you prioritizing her?
Have you led your family well,Like those questions which you

(01:17:20):
know who thinks about that?

Speaker 3 (01:17:22):
But you can see like if there's ever frustration in
the home, it's probably becauseI'm not leading, or I'm
disciplined of anger, or I'mfrustrated and I'm not leading
gracefully well Does that makesense, and I think that's where
having someone to ask mequestions like that allows me to
confess repent and move forward, and to encourage you in
repentance, to preach the gospelto you, to remind you of your

(01:17:42):
forgiveness in Christ and yourstatus as a child of God.

Speaker 1 (01:17:46):
Yeah, because I think what the problem with saying a
Hail Mary and a rosary is.
It then makes the solution, orthe absolution, if you will not
connected to the actual sin.
So I lust, I go say a rosary.
Those two things aredisconnected.
I lust, and now in theChristian world I'm supposed to

(01:18:07):
walk in holiness, and when I getto that temptation again, I
told you that the next time Ireach that point I'm going to
call you.
And now I'm like oh crud, I'mat the I don't know.
I'm at the gym, I saw the girland now I need to call whoever
so I can have them pray over me.
Like that's again.
That's prescriptive.

(01:18:27):
That's not in Scripture, but Ithink that's the tradition that
we've been following.
That, for the most part, allowsfor the wholeness of the
repentance to be fulfilled, asopposed to a.
I told the priest, I said theprayer.
Now I can do what I want.

Speaker 2 (01:18:41):
Yeah.
So in terms like, say, Iconfess a sin, to like my pastor
or just like a friend, and thenit's like taking some steps and
courses of action to like,really like, show your full
repentance and be cleansed, Iguess my question would be then

(01:19:02):
how do you know when your soulis fully cleansed or you've
fully moved on from those sins?
Is it just you don't do itagain, or is it something a
little bit different you think?

Speaker 1 (01:19:06):
1 John 1.8,.
The verse before 1 John 1.9says if we say we have no sin,
we deceive ourselves and thetruth is not in us.
There's never going to be apoint where you're a sinless
person, never.
So I think that's the part whenyou understand that John was
writing to believers sayingdon't be self-deceived.
You've got to confess your sinsto God.

(01:19:26):
All right, so like that's ahuge part of it.
Also, whenever you become aChristian, you are indwelt by
the Holy Spirit, and so you arenow a child of God.
Jesus is saying like you like.
Whenever God looks at you, hesees his son because the blood
that was covered by theindwelling of the Holy Spirit.
So now you are a new creationin Christ.

(01:19:48):
The old is gone, the new hascome.
You are seen as Jesus beforeGod.
So there isn't necessarily acleansing that needs to happen
beyond what Jesus did for you onthe cross, however, walking in
holiness.
You were created in ChristJesus to do good works.
So therefore, sin should not bethe pattern of your life, and
so you've got to crucify theflesh.

(01:20:10):
But, as Paul wrote in Romans 7,I don't understand what I do,
for I want to do, I do not do,but what I hate that I keep on
doing, et cetera, et cetera.
Who will save me from this bodyof death?
Thanks be to God, christ Jesus,our Lord.
And then Romans 8.1,.
Therefore, there is nocondemnation for those who are
in Christ Jesus.
And so what does that mean?
That means that your soul iscleansed before God the moment

(01:20:32):
you receive Jesus.
And then the maintenance, themaintenance on your soul.

Speaker 3 (01:20:37):
Sanctification.

Speaker 1 (01:20:44):
The sanctification right of like, becoming more
like Jesus over time is going tohappen through continual
confession and repentance, notso that you could become holy,
but to live up to the holinessas God sees you as.

Speaker 2 (01:20:51):
It does.
And I guess, like, how do youthink we know, like, how do we
know, like, what the holinessthat God sees us is?
Like, like, what, like, how is?

Speaker 1 (01:21:02):
it Like.
What should we be striving for?
So John 17, 23,.
Jesus says this I pray forthose who will believe in me
because of these disciples thatwere with them.
I pray that you, father, lovethem, love you.
This is where we write our namein the Bible.

(01:21:24):
Love Robbie Holland, chris,even as equal to the way you
love me.
So we know that we are loved bythe Father, equal to the way he
loves Jesus, because of whatJesus did for us on the cross,
which is why we sing songs aboutthe crucifixion nothing but the
blood of Jesus.
The reason why we're so intothat is because that's what
makes us acceptable, not becauseof the work I've done, but

(01:21:45):
because of the work Jesus hasdone.

Speaker 3 (01:21:47):
Yeah, that's what it means to be in Christ.
When the New Testament talksabout being in Christ is we are
united so that the same statusthat we have we have the same
status as Jesus, as we are God'ssons with blameless before him,
because the imputedrighteousness of Jesus, that we

(01:22:11):
stand not condemned.
We stand forgiven, loved,justified, holy, blameless.
And so the cleansing that wetalk about as Protestants, what
we call sanctification, becomingmore and more like Jesus we're
already like Jesus positionally.
We are in the same position asJesus spiritually.

(01:22:34):

Speaker 2 (01:22:37):
Yeah, I'm just trying to envision, like when we say
we're in the same position asJesus could you expand upon that
a little bit more?

Speaker 3 (01:22:47):
When God looks at a Christian, he sees the
righteousness of Christ, and soyou have the position of being
justified, blameless.
You are no longer in theposition of being condemned in
the domain of darkness.
You have now legally beenjustified.
You are in the position of sonof God, child of God.
So, as a child of God, you areblameless positionally.

(01:23:09):
And yet, in the way that youlive your life, we know that we
still sin and stumble, and sothis is where we're trying to
become actually more and morelike Jesus.
We're trying to move toward theposition that we already have,
and that's the Spirit's work.
That's the Spirit's work in uswho sanctifies us.
From one degree of glory to thenext, we're transformed by the

(01:23:32):
renewal of our mind.
Jesus said you know thy word istruth.
Sanctify them in your truth.
So what it looks like to growin holiness is to be more and
more in conformity with thetruth of God's word, with
aligning our lives to his lawwhile believing in the promises
of the gospel.

Speaker 2 (01:23:52):
Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 3 (01:23:55):
Yeah, so we yeah, that's the cleansing that we
talk about as Protestants isbeing sanctified in the truth of
God's word, by the spirit ofGod.

Speaker 2 (01:24:03):
Yeah, and also, too, I think one of my favorite
things about the Holy Spirit islike the Holy Spirit will
communicate to you in ways whereyou're just like whoa, like I
didn't have that perspectivebefore, like I remember ways we
were just like whoa, like Ididn't have that perspective
before, like I remember, yeah,um, a sin I was struggling with
that I didn't even realize for along time was like I was
listening to a podcast and thispodcaster his name is jason
whitlock, former sports guy he'slike you know, a sin I struggle

(01:24:25):
with is gluttony.
And he starts talking.
I'm like you know, I feel likethat's something I struggle with
.
I don't even really like thinkabout it.
Like, like, I feel like that tome, like, hey, you shouldn't be
snacking when you're not hungry, right, that's a sin that
you're struggling with.
And then, obviously as aCatholic for me, I'm going to a
priest and I'm saying, hey, I'mstruggling with this, and then
they may say X, y or Z, do this,and that's how you're going to

(01:24:48):
clear your soul.
But obviously it's a littlewith the Protestant faith.

Speaker 1 (01:24:51):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, man, I really appreciateyou coming on the show today.

Speaker 3 (01:24:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:24:54):
We're going to have to bring you back for more
questions with Robbie.
This has been awesome, hey, andif there is anything that you
guys want to ask Robbie in thefuture, just text us at
737-231-0605.
We would love to hear from you.
Go to PastorPleckcom, drop aline with us there.
But go to pastorplekcom, drop aline with us there.
But, man, this has beeninformative.

(01:25:14):
It's been encouraging.
I'm so grateful you're at ourchurch, so grateful you're gonna
be serving with our deafministry deaf team.
Make sure that you get ahold ofhim.
And Holland, thanks so much forjoining us.
You're about to head onsabbatical, that's right, so
you're not going to see Hollandfor like a full month, all of.

Speaker 3 (01:25:29):
July.
After this afternoon.

Speaker 1 (01:25:34):
And so, hey, thanks so much for watching From our
house to yours.
Have an awesome week of worship.

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