February 19, 2025 • 54 mins
Have a question or comment for Pastor Plek or one of his guests. Send it here.
342: Pastor Plek is joined by Pastor Holland, Adrienne, and Pablo and Bri Mota today as they explore the complexities of loving a married man and the moral questions that arise when affection intersects with commitment. Throughout this heartfelt episode, they discuss the nature of love, lust, accountability within relationships, and the importance of boundaries, encouraging listeners to focus on upholding God's design for relationships.
Got questions? Text us at 737-231-0605!
Like, share, and subscribe! We love seeing and responding to your reviews and comments.
Support the show: https://wbcc.churchcenter.com/giving
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec,with a slew of guests on our
show today.
Uh, and we'll start with, uh,the sweet adrian plec and pull,
how are you?
I'm doing great feeling, reallysweet and then also pastor
holland from the east side.
So glad to have you joining us.
Thanks, chris.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
And then pablo and brie mot Side, so glad to have
you joining us.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Thanks, Chris.
And then Pablo and Brie Motaand their son Zekiel joining us
on the podcast.
How are you guys doing?
Good?
All right, so we're talkingquestions.
We had a question that came infrom this past week, and so it's
hot.
This is a hot take question andI'm going to read it for you
(00:46):
right off of the text.
You know you can text us at737-231-0605 and this person
texted in what do I do if I'm inlove with a married man who is
in a sexless marriage?
This is a great question andone that probably needs to be
(01:07):
addressed, because I think thatprobably a lot of people have
had this question.
So let's just go right to ourguest today to see what they
would.
You know, adrienne.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Oh good.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Any thoughts here I?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
have a lot of thoughts.
What?
Speaker 1 (01:24):
do you think I'm assuming this is a woman what do
you think this woman should doif she's in love with a married
man who's in a sexless marriage?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
well, she needs to find a way to redirect her
passion yeah but I have somequestions as to like does it,
does the marriage being sexless,make her feel like she?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Is she the answer?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
The marital covenant is like void now.
Like that's weird, Like that'sirrelevant.
Sexless marriage, abusivemarriage I don't really care
what marriage they're in, it's amarried man.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Right, and what makes you think that he'll have sex
with you?
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Well, is she even asking that?
Speaker 1 (02:03):
That's a good point.
Well, she's in love with him.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
You're suggesting is that he's the reason it's
sexless?
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Well, I mean it takes two to tango, right?
So I mean there might be areason she does the.
The other, the married woman,doesn't want to have sex with
her husband.
And so when you're sort for thegreener, grass, right, yeah,
you're just new set of problems,right?
Okay, so let's go to uh.
(02:29):
Pablo, what do you think?
Or brie, what do you think?
Speaker 5 (02:33):
I think there's a lot of issues here.
Okay, on both sides on thisguy's part and on her part,
right, um.
But yeah, I feel like the like.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I don't know why the sexless marriage was thrown in
there well, probably because shethinks she has a relationship
with this man who is married tosomebody else, and she's
probably thinking it's time forher to either move in or move
out, and I think your advice atthis point would be get out.
Speaker 5 (03:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think there is some typeof relationship going on,
because how does she know, oh,how clearly there has been some
type of emotional somethinggoing on between these two for
her to know so much.
And it's not like you seesomeone and you fall in love,
like that's something that takestime and getting to know
someone.
So it's like are you truly inlove, are you lusting after a
(03:23):
married man?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
like yeah, that's the other issue I'm having is like
you can care about somebody, youcan love somebody but not be in
love with them.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Well, I mean, this could be like a famous person,
like I'm in love with that staron the screen and I'm assuming
from all the tabloids they haveno sex in their marriage and I
could be the solution.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Either way, to even engage.
The thought of I'm in love likebeing in love is a to me,
that's like it's a decision.
Right, we talk about this, thatthe choice to love your spouse
is a decision.
It's not a feeling.
And I can care about a lot ofpeople.
I can love a lot of peoplebecause I care about them, but
that's different than being inlove with them, which is a
choice to like.
(04:10):
So why?
I don't know.
I guess I'm like Shouldn't havegotten there.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
OK, pastor Han, how would you pastor this person
through her current likefeelings, to get her to a place
of healing and wholeness?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Yeah, the situation to me sounds like a situation
that Satan has been working like, uh, in a lot of different ways
.
One sexless marriage.
Satan's at work there, right,it's.
It's God's desire for marriagesto be sexually intimate and
full of life and love, and soSatan's obviously been at work
there.
There's issues going on there.
Then, you know, for this otherwoman to fall in love with this
(04:51):
man, she's whether the marriageis sexless or not.
If you're in love with amarried man, that's you've been.
You've not been led there byGod, you know you've been led
there by the lust of your fleshand the lies of the enemy.
And then bringing up thesexless part of it is like a way
to maybe justify or like doesthis give me the right?
Ok, you know I'm in love with amarried man and I know that's
(05:15):
wrong in general, but he hasthis kind of miserable marriage
Does that give me the right tokind of like, step in and insert
myself into this relationship?
And so, basically, it looks likethe work of the enemy all
throughout it, and so you needto counter that with the truth
of God's word that says flee,sexual immorality.
So what do you do if you're inlove with a married man in a
sexless marriage you flee.
(05:35):
You flee sexual immorality.
You confess to God and tosomeone else in church that
you're having these um desiresand temptations and struggles
and you seek help um to move onand accept the reality that
marriage is meant to bepermanent and um the best thing
for a sexless marriage is not toend that marriage, you know,
(05:58):
and break it off with someaffair, but rather for them to
seek healing and help from theirown church community.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yeah, and I think the pastor with this woman, I would
say hey, there's a, there's aBible verse for you, second
Corinthians 10, five.
We destroy arguments at everylofty opinion raised against
knowledge of God, meaning youknow that this is not of God.
Yeah, and I know that there's ajustification.
I know that your heart is.
You know, if God only knew myheart.
(06:24):
Well, god does know your heartand it's wicked and deceitful
above all things.
And so, because all humanhearts are like that, we can't
trust our heart.
That's why we have God's word,god's spirit and God's people.
And God's spirit can beconfusing sometimes, because
you're like is that me or isthat God?
Is it me?
God's word is very clear thatthis is it's sin to break up a
(06:45):
marriage or, you know, kind ofeven have desires for this
married man.
Like that is a sinful desire,like that is not a oh, we're all
tempted.
No, that's a sinful desire.
And the way you handle that in2 Corinthians 10, 5 is take
every thought captive to obeyChrist.
(07:06):
And so I think this part oflike obeying Jesus, you have got
to get into the war of yourmind to take that thought
captive and say I'm going toobey Jesus, even if it causes me
personal pain and heartache,because I have such love that I
have to mortify in my fleshbecause I know that Christ is
(07:28):
worth it.
Do we really believe that Jesusis enough?
We sing the songs you're morethan enough.
We talk about Jesus and we askpeople.
We say this every Sunday.
Your soul feeds on Jesus likeyour body feeds on bread.
In the same way that your bodyphysically needs food to sustain
, you need Jesus to sustain, andif you replace Jesus with
(07:51):
sexual immorality, it mightsatisfy momentarily but ends up
making you starving and leads todeath.
So I think that'd be the simpleanswer there, and I do think
this is something that let'sjust take beyond the situation,
because I do feel like there area lot of couples that are like
(08:12):
they're wanting to justify theirsin by the condition that
they're in, and what I mean bythat is listen, we're not ready
to get married yet, but whyshould we be paying two rents?
Why would we live being tworents?
You know why.
Why would we live apart fromeach other?
Like that doesn't make anysense and what?
What you're doing with that isyou're saying I want to use sex
(08:35):
for a financial gain what wenormally call.
That's prostitution.
But but in this moment, like,like, like.
Nobody wants to say that, butyou're saying like, no, the
reason that I need to live withthis person before we're married
is for financial to get aheadfinancially.
And no one wants to say that'sprostitution.
But what is prostitution?
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Okay, except that if you're sleeping together,
whether you're living togetheror not, it's sort of a different
conversation living together ornot.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
It's sort of a different conversation, but.
But I guess what I'm saying islike if the only reason that
you're living together you wouldsay, like I believe that we
need to be married and all that,I believe there's a right way
to go, but right now we justcan't afford it, then you're
then becoming what is that?
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (09:21):
yeah, I guess if you're saying you're abstinent,
living separate and then nowliving together, you're not fine
.
But I don't know anyone that'ssexually abstinent and then
moves in and then starts havingsex.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
No, no, right.
But most people have sex first,right, right, and then they
justify it by saying I need topay rent, so therefore, why
don't we They'll justify the sinthat they're already entangled
in with their financial benefits, yeah with circumstances,
absolutely, and I think that'strue for a lot of sins, for sure
, yeah, but I think typicallythe excuse doesn't.
(09:56):
Is prostitution too hard?
Speaker 2 (09:58):
No, no, it's fine, but it's just like it's silly,
because sex is a present bothways.
So it's not like you're, it'snot like the money.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Right, you're using the person for financial gain,
which is weird.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
But you're using the person, whether there's
financial gain or not.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Sure, but I guess what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So you're justifying the justification, you're a
victim of the sex now because ofyou need the rent.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
I need the rent, right.
That's like a passiveprostitution, sure Fine.
It's like there's nothing I cando.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
My point is your sin is following the circum.
I'm sorry.
The circumcise is behind, it'sdragging behind the sin Right,
and so the sin's there, and nowyou're trying to justify it with
circumstance.
It's not usually, I think, thecircumstance that then.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Right, I think there's a non-intentionality,
right.
So the intentionality is like Iwant to be in relation with
this person.
Oh, I love being in relationwith this person.
Oh man, oops, we had sex.
Okay, well, you know, it'sreally hard to not have sex.
We're already having sex.
We might move in because it'scheaper.
I think that's where thateventually goes.
But that's like an accidentalway to do your life.
(11:14):
It's not without intentionality.
And then all of a sudden youfind yourself using the reason
it's cheaper, which reallycheapens the whole relationship,
I think that's the story.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
I agree, and I think, even going back to our example,
like, say, the man in thissexless marriage decides to end
the marriage, right, okay.
And so now and say it's abiblical divorce, we'll just go
that far.
Let's go that far.
Let's say that.
Okay, so the man is now out ofhis marriage.
It was a biblical divorce.
This woman is ready to come in.
(11:44):
I guess that's where I wouldsay you're a fool if you think
that you can enter inrelationship with this man, even
though relationship is not sin.
You're crazy if you think it'sgoing to be without most of the
issues that he probably had inhis last relationship A and B,
without issue.
(12:04):
From your past experiences it'slike you're completely crazy if
you think that this is whateverchemistry and connection you
have today is going to just onlyget more positive and more
committed.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
And sin makes us crazy, more positive and more
committed.
And sin makes us crazy Likewhat you were saying completely
crazy is not like whoever sentin this question like you're
some unique crazy person.
Like we all have this crazinessthat we start, we get into,
like have some sinful desire andwe start fantasizing about it,
not even exclusive to just likelust and sexual stuff, but like
(12:42):
some kind of selfish thing thatwe get this idea, this vision in
our head about and then westart looking for reasons to
justify it.
And so sin makes you crazy.
And this sounds like one ofthose situations where it's just
like oh man, I'm in love, he'sunhappy, wouldn't it just be
better for everyone?
And you start going down thispath of trying to justify it
(13:03):
because, well, it's a sexlessmarriage and we're in love, and
dah, dah, dah, dah.
But if you're able to justactually step back from the
situation and just deal with itin I don't know the strict terms
of like what God wants for youin this is very clear Leave it
alone, move on.
You know, like that man made acommitment, vowed until death,
(13:24):
do us part.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
You know like I think that's why it's really hard,
and I think this is where youknow the dynamics of men and
women, friendships andconnections.
It's like at some point, I'msure this was a very pure
relationship of friendship typething and somehow it crossed the
line, like, somehow it wentfrom oh, hey, hey, how are you
doing?
Oh, it's good to see you, youknow, in passing to a
(13:47):
conversation that somehow talkedabout his sex life.
I don't like, how do you getthere with, uh, as a married man
, with another woman?
Like that is that should benever talked about in.
Like just, oh, you know, you'rethrown around.
Here's how my sex life is going.
You know, it'd be really greatif I had some more sex.
Oh, I wish I could fulfill thatfor you.
(14:08):
Like, I think, is that how thatgoes?
I mean, how did, how did thoseconversations even get to that
point?
Speaker 4 (14:13):
yeah, well, I think, after, after, uh, having been in
positions where I'm totallylike, blinded by a female's
intentions toward me, but thenBree points them out, it's like
a little bit easier to seethings like that now.
(14:34):
But I think that and look, ifyou're the person that's saying
this question like I'm notsaying this is you, but that a
lot of times this is probablywhat's happened is that a female
has a special interest in a guy.
She finds him attractive, shethinks he's cool, and all along,
like maybe I don't know if itwas intentional or not, but that
(14:56):
relationship starts.
And I think if you're thatperson, that boundary has
already been crossed the momentthat you start that relationship
Right, person, that boundaryhas already been crossed the
moment that you start thatrelationship Right, because you
know that you have certainfeelings toward that person that
shouldn't be there, that you'vealready send in your head and
now you're taking action, and soyou know not to say that that
(15:17):
that's what this person did, butjust to say that even you know,
starting that relationship iscrossing a boundary that
shouldn't have been crossed.
Yeah, definitely, um, and howit unravels from that point on
is you know?
Speaker 1 (15:31):
well, let's talk about that.
How, what kind of boundariesshould we have as men and women?
Uh, married men and women?
Uh, and I think I'm assumingthat this woman is single.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
That's where it gets a little bit confusing well, and
one thing I was going to saybefore, that is I I don't
necessarily think I think thatthe information of a sexless
marriage can come off in a lotof environments.
I don't think it's notnecessarily a one-on-one
conversation, so I guess this iswhere I'm like it's.
(16:01):
Also, I'd be curious what thecontext of their friendship is.
You know, because you're ingroups of friends with people
making jokes or comments all thetime and you can have, you can
learn information about peopleand what's going on, and it
might not necessarily been likeI haven't had sex Right.
I mean that's kind of a commonlike a person that's in a
(16:23):
marriage where there is no sexis probably, and if they're open
, an open person, they're makingjokes about it, they're making
comments about it, like itdoesn't necessarily have to be
this intimate conversation.
Okay, and so I guess thatthat's where.
So I guess in my mind, thisfriendship isn't necessarily
like.
This goes back to what I saidat the beginning of her
(16:43):
phraseology of I'm in love, I'mlike man.
That's to me.
That's the problem it's like isthe co-ed relationship to me is
I don't know, that's just myview.
I don't necessarily thinkthat's the problem.
The problem is this is a she'schosen a mindset to see this man
in.
That is a choice, like shecould decide to care about him
(17:06):
and she could decide to be prohis marriage, but she's choosing
not to be pro his marriage andnot and care about him in the
way that, ultimately, would bethe best thing for him.
Instead, she's choosing to toselfishly desire to fulfill
something in him that wouldactually be to his detriment and
to her detriment.
And she's choosing a narrative,a context of which to view the
(17:30):
relationship where she's in love, like she's not just I'm not, I
like this guy, I enjoy this guy, I care about this guy, like,
I'm in love with him, like, likehow do you move?
that you don't, don't go thereLike, be on, be in love.
And if you can't unbe in love,then then flee, okay, fine, but
like or just choose to unbe inlove, or choose to love him,
(17:52):
which means be pro free for hismarriage, exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Like Hebrews 13, four let marriage be held in honor
among all.
So like number one, that, likethat's you gotta be your
personal commitment.
As a Christian, I'm going tohonor marriage and I want him to
honor his marriage Right.
And then it says and let themarriage bed be undefiled, for
God will judge the sexuallyimmoral and adulterous.
So you gotta know, like if thisperson who's sending this in is
(18:18):
a Christian, you gotta knowyou're thinking about doing
something that brings about thejudgment of God.
And if you're reallyconsidering that, you got to
consider are you really aChristian?
And if so, repent from thatdesire, not just from the action
, but repent from the desire andhumble yourself before God and
ask him to help you holdmarriage and honor.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Yeah, and I think if you're at this point where you
haven't gone through with it yet, you're at a I'm not saying
great place, but you're at abetter place.
How about that Then, if you had?
Yeah, so this is a great timeto bring in church leadership.
This is a great time to saylike, hey, I am at this place of
vulnerability in my own heart.
I know I'm about to go down adark path.
Yeah, speak truth into my life.
(19:00):
Pray the gospel over me, askthe Holy Spirit to give you the
courage and the accountabilitystructure that you need.
That's why community is such apowerful, takes such a powerful
part in somebody's life, and Ithink also if for the person
with the question.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
I think one thing that I always have to do in my
life, whether it's like an areaof temptation like this or in my
parenting, my huge like I don'twant to go home, in 45 minutes
I just don't, I would rather doliterally anything else.
Okay, and I'm like so, my, soit's not Adrian, like confess,
(19:37):
you don't want to go home.
It's like no, I'm praying toGod for the desire to engage.
I'm praying to God for thedesire for the energy to go
engage and to parent and to holdthe kids accountable to the
things like and and so.
In this, in the context of thistemptation, I'm praying to God
that God would give me a desirefor this man, the health of this
(20:00):
man's marriage, cause clearly,I mean, it doesn't sound like
she's got that right.
She's kind of hopeful that themarriage, like, is kind of done
and so I'm like, so, if you'reso, focus on, like, if God could
change your heart and you couldbecome for his marriage and for
what's best for him and for you, then, like that, ultimately
(20:22):
that's more effective than thisquote, unquote fleeing, which I
kind of.
I think fleeing is biblical andI don't want to make fun of it,
but there is kind of this likeI'm going to put my fingers in
my ears and close my eyes andjust going to pretend like this
doesn't exist and I'm just goingto run away from it.
But it's always kind of on thisback burner as this option that
you're either actively runningaway from, but maybe that's
sitting there.
(20:42):
And what would be to me what'shealthier is to say, man, like,
completely kind of what you weresaying, holland, like, undo
that desire that I have.
So, god, like, give me a desirefor what would be healthy and
honoring to you, and in themeantime I'm going to take
actions that are going to helpme align with that desire and
that then now you have thisredeemed friendship, where that
(21:06):
feels good.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
I love what I think.
It's not that she loves him toomuch.
She loves him too little,Because if she really loved him
she would say I want she wouldchallenge him because she would
know and granted, it's hard toknow this but you love him too
little because you want hisaffections over what is best for
him.
Right, and what is best for himis marriage, the way God
(21:28):
designed it, and for them tohave sex within their marriage
Absolutely.
And so by loving him more, youwould say God, please help them
have sex in their marriage,Ignite a fire and chemistry
within them and encourage thatsort of behavior, as opposed to
the selfish thing to love himless, to love yourself more is
to flirt or whatever.
(21:50):
It is where you steal affectionaway.
So maybe he'll want me more,and I don't know if she's doing
that.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
No, but that's exactly it.
And so if she could get to aplace where she could care about
him enough to want the thingsof God for him, then to me
there's a I don't know.
To me that's like that's theultimate win, because then
you're not.
It's not like you're trying towhite knuckle this resistance to
temptation, but instead you'reactually repenting of a desire
(22:16):
that was ungodly and changing itinto a desire that is godly,
which we're having to do thatwith.
A lot Like parenting is justone example of, I mean, like a
work ethic, like choosing towork hard at a job that you're
sick of and that you're tired of.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
And you have cruddy people to work with and for.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Right, and so it's arguably sinful to kind of check
out and not try.
I mean, god makes it very clearwe're supposed to work unto the
Lord and so I'm like, so we'regoing to pray for that desire to
change, not just try to like,resist the temptation to be lazy
.
So I think there's like andyour actions have to follow.
(22:53):
So there is, it is twofold, butI just feel Like.
I think in all in all of my likeChristian, like they wouldn't
have to be Christian, but in allof our like couple friendships
and relationships, like that'sone of the reasons that I'm
always like, mindfully prayerfulof, like of my girlfriends and
(23:15):
of their marriages and and themen that we are friends with.
It's like if you're praying andyou're disciplined about like,
truly desiring the things of God, yeah, then your mind is not
caught up in, you get stoppedlong before you're down this
road of inappropriate crossingof boundary things, because you
(23:38):
want the things of God for themand you care about them, and so
yeah, I want to go back to whatHolland said with just like a
misordered love or you don'tlove them enough, like, let's
talk about like in, just likenot this particular situation,
but like two single people loveeach other and they would say I
just love them so much I got tohave.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
you know, I just how can I resist?
I need to have sex with thembecause I love them so much.
And I would say, and probablyeveryone here would agree, that
you love them too little.
Like, love them too.
The reason why you love themtoo little is because you don't
love them enough to put downyour selfishness of I want my
desire fulfilled for theholiness of God which ultimately
, for their, for God's glory andtheir ultimate best, you guys,
(24:21):
brie, probably can you guysspeak into that.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
Yeah, I mean, I've seen I don't know if it's lack
of knowledge or just pureignorance and selfishness but
I've met someone who you know,made the excuse of we can't
afford to rent, so we have tomove in, right, and we had a
move for dinner and I, you knowwe have to move in Right, and we
had them over for dinner andwe've gone through this Right.
(24:45):
And so I share our testimony.
And we have friends that havegone through this and your
testimony is that you were thatcouple, yeah, but we tried our
best to fix the situation andobviously it wasn't perfect,
right, but we still saw ablessing from it, yeah, and we
have friends that essentiallydid the same thing and they saw
(25:06):
a lot of blessing from it.
And what I try to tell him is Iget your point from a world
perspective, like your finances,whatever, but just know you're
setting up your marriage not forfailure, but it's going to be
hard, like it's not going to beeasy.
And you know, I give them allthe scriptures, I give them
(25:29):
specific examples.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
And even your own life.
When you, when you give yourown life example, they're not
like, wow, that's powerful.
I'm glad you did the rightthing, yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
And it was so sad because at the end it basically
it was so sad because at the endit basically he straight up was
like I know that's God's will,but this is what I'm going to do
and I'm just going to hope forthe best and genuinely the
conversation was out of love.
I'm like dude, like you thinkyou're helping your family, but
(26:00):
you're not.
They both have kids fromseparate.
You know, I don't knowmarriages, but I'm just like
dude, you're not doing what youactually think you're doing that
.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
And I feel the same exact way about these marriages
where we're having a well likewhen you have to get in, when
you have to get married, have toget in, when you have to get
married immediately, because thetemptation, I think that's a
(26:29):
double-sided coin, because Ithink sometimes I'm like, okay,
there's some humility in saying,yep, we understand that there's
huge temptation here.
I think, especially if you havea past with that person, like
you're, you're like kind of inthis lose lose situation, you've
opened up this realm.
I mean, that's, that's.
I think so.
I think there's a healthybalance between having wisdom
(26:51):
and saying, okay, we're notgoing to set ourselves up for
more failure, to sin, and goingahead and getting married sooner
than we had planned.
But I think that is a I thinkso.
I think there's a context forit, I think there's a place for
it.
But I also think that when itbecomes kind of a norm in a
Christian community to just havea whole bunch of early weddings
, I'm like, well, hang on, likethe same amount of self-control
(27:14):
that you're struggling to haveyou're going to have to have.
You're going to still have thatsame amount of self-control
struggle, and I don't care whenthe people then get married and
go, oh, we don't have theproblem anymore.
I'm like give it five years,Like.
Like, like, give it a littlebit of time.
Okay, yeah, you're right, Inyour first year of marriage
you're going to not think thatthere's problems because there's
not a need to restrain yourself, but that same same need to
(27:35):
like give into what feels goodand like, in the moment,
indulging the desires of yourflesh.
Like you don't want to be yokedwith someone that has a history
of always indulging the desiresof their flesh and like you
don't want that.
So find the balance.
Like I still think I I do wantit to be, cause I don't think
it's always a mistake to have anearly wedding, but I think that
(27:58):
when it becomes kind of this,like yeah, we're not sleeping
together, but you know we wouldlike to start in three months
because it's just getting toohard, and then we're just going
to have our wedding two yearslater, I'm like figure out how
to get a wedding in three months.
That is your wedding that you'rehappy about, or figure out how
to wait for an appropriateamount of time to have the
wedding that you want.
But to me, what that shows isthat there's two parties
(28:19):
involved and they're indisagreement, and the person
who's refusing to wait to me isthe person that we need to watch
for.
I'm like if the woman reallywants her wedding, then love her
enough to give her a wedding,but then, woman, hold your
wedding with an open hand enoughto get it figured out in six
months from now.
You know what I mean?
(28:40):
Like meet each other halfway.
That's, the rest of your lifeis going to be working out those
two things.
So if you can't and if it can'tdo it, this is where I, kind of
going back to you and I, chris,like I felt like we, we were
quick, but we were um, thetiming was more connected to my
work schedule than it was.
We can't wait for three moremonths.
(29:01):
Right, it was kind of like wewanted to set our early months
up in marriage where we wouldhave time to do a honeymoon in
time.
So that was logisticallydifferent, but it was still very
much like it would have beenfoolish for us to just give it a
whole nother year.
That would have been foolish,and so I think you just have to
hold that tension well, but youalso have to recognize that
whatever is causing the tensionof not being able to wait today,
(29:25):
that's not going away.
It'll just re-manifest intosomething else.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Yeah, I think that.
Yeah, I think it goes back tojust how much do you love
someone.
Because I just am so in lovewith you, I must have no.
No, I'm so in love with you, Ican resist.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Exactly, exactly, and I'm so in love with you I can
have a wedding that's maybe notas fancy as I wanted, or I'm so
in love with you that, yeah,I'll.
I'll not hang out with you asmuch because I can't control
myself and I want to, and andyou made that was always a
really big for me.
When you and I were dating, youhad gone further with other
girls and I was all I was likepretty insecure about that and
(30:04):
so I pushed the envelope becauseI was like you can't be this
serious with me if you haven'tright done these things with me.
And you were like, adrienne, I,I love you and I want something
better for you than what I gaveto what I've done in the past,
and I couldn't see it like that,which was frustrating.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
yeah, yeah, and not to make we were ever like
perfect by any stretch of theimagination, but yeah, we've had
to work out a lot of that stuffin our marriage and so I think
what a lot of this, like youdon't love them.
I think to say you don't lovethem enough reorders your mind
to say, because I think in your,if you love someone, you're
like I'm willing to do whateverI need to do for this person.
(30:45):
And I think if I would have hadsomebody say to me at that time
, I would have had betterlanguage, if I could have said
Adrienne, I love you so muchthat I don't want to go this
direction.
That would have been a waybetter thing to say.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
And I think at the time your reasoning was like a
purity reasoning and I think,and I think at the time your
reasoning was like a purityreason yeah.
And I was kind of like, well,that's water under the bridge,
you know, like who cares at thispoint.
Like you've already crossed thelike.
There's not purity here, right,but I didn't understand the
consequences of some of thosevery like.
Seemingly insignificant thingshad consequence that I didn't
(31:24):
anticipate, and I actually thinkyour motive was because you
cared about our relationship.
I just I was too immature tosee that.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
And I didn't have the language for it.
I wish, going back, I couldhave said I love you so much.
I don't want to put I want.
I want the best for you andwhat God's best for you is me
restraining our physicalintimacy until the time is right
.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Yeah, and I think, and I even think within that
there might have to becompromise, but because,
remember, you started okay here,this will be interesting.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
So do you remember when you started with no kissing
which Holland you started?
Okay, here this will beinteresting, oh wow.
So do you remember you startedwith no kissing which Holland
you did?
You didn't kiss Jenny rightTill your wedding day.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
No, we, we didn't for a while.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Yeah, we, I asked Chris like when we have a
reputation around here is notkissing her till your wedding
day.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Started that, not me, I'm pretty sure you do.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
You have a reputation around here as not kissing her
until your wedding day, sort ofthat.
Not me, you do you have areputation.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
It wasn't either Chris or I, but I won't.
What I encourage and what Itried to practice and what I saw
accountability for was the ideathat I think is scriptural is
until she's your wife, she'syour sister, and so there's not
some middle ground in Scriptureof dating or engaged has this
(32:52):
advanced level of intimacy.
That's not full marriage, butit's more than just friends or
something, and so that's what Iwould counsel people to do is,
song of Solomon don't stir uplove until it pleases.
Don't awaken love until itpleases.
Don't do anything that you knowis sexually arousing until
you're married.
But in terms of like how we didat that, that was something I
(33:18):
had to like get accountabilityfrom a lot of people in church,
and we tried really like JamesMeyer.
He lived together at the timeand he would call you and be
like no, he, I mean he justlived there.
He was there for all of ourdates.
He would watch.
When Jenny would come over towatch a movie, he would just
watch it with us wait, you livedwith James, yeah, so before
(33:39):
before DD moved off of Old FishLane.
Before Jenny and I were married,we lived together.
And when Jenny would come over,james would just oh.
Before Dee Dee moved Before OldFish Lane, before Jenny and I
were married, we lived together.
And when Jenny would come over,james would just sit in between
us on the couch.
That's a real friend, yeah, andyeah, I mean I would get random
texts from him all the time,just like hand check.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
So we tried to do, you know, only date in public.
You know we tried to implementa lot of that stuff and there
was, you know, when we stumbled.
One time I confessed to Chrisand I was serving in the youth
ministry at the time and Chriswas like there's grace for one
time and he said if you do itagain, you have to step down.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Space that follows his grace.
Yes, that's good.
But I was like sweet, I like Iappreciated that and we, you
know, we took it reallyseriously and um sweet I like I
appreciated that and we, youknow we took it really seriously
and, um, I don't know it washelpful, uh, because I think
when we started dating, you werelike I was trying extremist,
right, and I know that, and Ithink.
And so he was like we're notkissing and I'm like, well,
that's stupid, like, like.
(34:36):
And I think that that's what Imean by give it's actually
genius that's what I compromise,but I thought it was so dumb
and I'm like don't be so selfishthat you can't kiss me and
that's I was trying to, and Iwish I would have said I love
you so much that I think I wouldhave said figure out how to get
control of yourself and be ableto kiss me.
So this is where I'm like maybethat's not fair, but I just feel
(34:59):
kind of like that was crazy.
I thought it was crazy, Ithought it was absolutely insane
.
So I I didn respect that.
So maybe that should have beena red flag for you.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
See, I think this is pure.
I think a kiss like a peck, akiss on the cheek.
I'm like David and Jonathankissed Paul and Peter said greet
each other with a holy kiss.
There is a form of giving akiss that is friendly, brotherly
, even, brother-sisterly even.
(35:31):
But when you go to making out,when you go to like that is like
awakening love.
That is going beyond, that'sstirring up love and arousing
something that's meant formarriage, that can only be
consummated in the marriage bed,and so that's where, if you're
doing that, you're I I would sayyou're, you're already out of
line and not on a good path.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
yep, christmas grace, you really screwed up nice yeah
yeah, it's like listen, hey,you know, I I do feel like that
there's grace and all that right, like I feel like there's
redemption and like you canright the ship, so to speak, by
really leaning into God's graceand leaning into God's favor,
(36:11):
leaning into God's joy.
But starting right helps youcontinue, right?
Yeah, why not just start fromthe beginning, doing it right?
Yeah, you'll have to have ahuge course correction.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
And like I thought we did, like we fought really hard
to protect, you know, purity,like we did sin and we did
stumble, and there are timeswhen I confessed and you know we
needed grace there, but a lotof it was like no one even
shared that conviction.
Like Chris was, like the onlyother person that even, like,
agreed that we should holdourselves to that standard.
Like all my other, evenChristian friends, were like
(36:46):
dude who cares, no, you shouldmake out, you should do this,
you should do that.
And so for me, like I had nevereven met anyone that held that
conviction, and so I wasquestioning whether or not it
was even right.
I do.
I have Christian friends who aremarried, who actually did wait
until they got married to evenhave their first kiss, who did
wait for any kind of, you knowthat that kind of affection or
(37:09):
intimacy, and I'm like it'spossible and it is possible, it
really is.
And it's just so crazy to theworld and that has rubbed off so
much on the church, I think.
But if we just go like what isthe standard scripture puts
forward for us, there's not amiddle ground in between, you
know, and it's just seems socrazy.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
And I would never act like I have a way forward for
dating people.
I'm like you're screwed, likeeverybody's screwed, like we
should all be getting married atlike 16.
I really believe that.
Like I just think we're made tobe getting married at 16 and
having imagine if you'repregnant at like 17 years old
like that's a lot easier.
I just think we're made forthat.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
I think that it's just I think you heard it here
first Trad Wives with Adrienne.
We're going to do arrangedmarriages and you can sign up
for your marriage at Adriennecom, for your marriage at adriancom
.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Biologically.
We were not made on any levelto put this off like we do.
Like not at all.
Like mentally, emotionally,like you can't find me a girl
that doesn't have some hangup ofsome high school college
boyfriend crush somethingbecause women are.
I mean our 15-year-old crush,our 18-year-old summer boyfriend
(38:31):
, is still haunting us becausewe not haunting us, gosh.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
Let me Wow.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
But there's still a, there's still a.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
They're burned in your memory because we're so
emotional and connected.
And dudes aren't the same, menaren't the same, but God made us
that way for a lot of goodpurposes.
But that's what I mean by noteven on a physical level, but an
emotional, spiritual connection, relational.
God wired us and designed usand our, our society, just isn't
(39:05):
set up.
I don't think, for how we werewired and designed and so Right.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
So what is the way forward?
I think that's a great questionto ask, I mean.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
I think Holland outlined it.
I think what Holland said is it, and I and that's why I say, is
like I obviously didn't, Wouldyou?
Speaker 1 (39:19):
be able to counsel somebody and say no, I can't.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
I wouldn't be able to do that why, because I just
think it's.
I can't like in my mind I'mlike we're in a broken world.
I don't know what to tell you.
Try and fail, but try to makeyour fail to where it's not as
bad why not?
I mean I wouldn't, I reallydon't have it why do you do the
(39:41):
counseling for these things.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Why not?
Speaker 1 (39:43):
aim for God.
You've heard it Shoot for thestars, you'll hit the moon.
Why not aim for perfect andthen understand God's grace is
amazing and then live in thatfreedom, as opposed to live in
this quasi?
I don't really know what'sright, what's wrong.
I think that's what makes ithard.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Well, I just don't really know what's right, what's
wrong.
I think that's what makes ithard, because then, well, I just
don't think it's ever right,like, like, I could have kissed
you longer than a brotherlygreeting and I would have been
fine, I could have gone to bedthat night with no sexual
problem and you and, but that'sbecause I had not really get it
right, I didn't reallyunderstand, I didn't know and I
would have.
I didn't really understand, Ididn't know and I would have
been caught up in the emotionalconnection of it, whereas the
(40:30):
same, on the other side of thatsame relationship now there
could be a man that's strugglingmore sexually and I'm like so,
shoot for what?
Shoot for holiness, right?
So I would say I would havebeen in holiness and you
wouldn't have been in holiness.
So now I have to shoot for yourholiness.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
And so it's like so, every relationship you're having
to shoot for the holiness ofthe more depraved person in the
moment meaning like, thestandard is I treat you like a
brother or I treat you like asister until we're married, and
then you get to enjoy the peoplehave a lot of sexual
dysfunction yeah, it might comeout in the non-brotherly
(41:10):
greeting.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
Yes, what, what?
Okay, like what are you?
Speaker 2 (41:16):
saying there are people who, to me, okay, if
someone can't be like romanticor be sexual, uh, not sexually,
physically affectionate, mm-hmm,you need to kind of like.
I actually listen, you're not.
Both of you are going todisagree with me, but there are.
There are people that physicalaffection and they have
(41:41):
childhood problems.
They weren't given affection aschildren.
They're uncomfortable withaffection, they're uncomfortable
with slowing down, and so Iwould say you're a fool to go
get married to someone that'sjust crushing it on this
discipline and this distance,because I'm like how do you know
that this isn't their wall?
Speaker 3 (41:59):
But you could say that about anything.
How do you know?
Basically, you're saying yougot to try it before you buy it.
Oh my gosh, no way.
Marriage, okay, no, you go.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Yeah, yeah.
So you're saying you gotta tryit before you buy it?
Yeah, try it.
Oh my gosh, no way.
All right, let's listenmarriage.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
Okay, no, you go, yeah, yeah yeah, so you're
telling me why, guys?
I would love to hear becausechris, for example for example
how much dysfunction has comeout for chris since you've been
married.
Yeah, yeah, but that's what I'msaying, that's my point.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
Yeah, it's like no matter what, of course,
dysfunction is going to come outafter you get married, you got
to work through it and you'rereally selfish and marriage is
the thing that sanctifies it.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
But okay, but regardless, I don't care.
If you're really really good athaving all these holy
boundaries Fair enough, youprobably have a bigger problem.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Or or you really love Jesus, it could be, or or you
really love jesus, it could bedoubtful, but like it like.
So here's what I'm saying likein your brotherly and brotherly
affection, oh man, does thatmean you've never like hug
somebody without a sexualintention?
Okay, well, no, let me let mesay this yeah all right.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
One of the things that okay the fact that when we
read about greet each other witha holy kiss or David and
Jonathan kissed each other, weread that and that sounds so
crazy and goofy or gay or weird.
I actually am on board.
It's a revealer that oursociety today is so deprived of
healthy relational affection.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
I would actually 100% agree with you on this.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
Nice, look at that, okay.
Affection, I would actually100% agree with you on this.
Nice, look at that, okay.
And so when?
When you actually it's a way.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Part of the way forward is like re-normalizing
healthy friendship and affection.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
Yes, I would agree that, um, that you can actually,
you, I would say, in that kindof environment you actually can
get a sense of someone who islike relationally healthy,
emotionally healthy, I wouldagree, I would agree.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
And isn't it true that without us having sex,
without us having sex, we had anattraction that you could like
a chemistry, if you will?
Speaker 2 (43:56):
Okay, but you want to know, okay, fine.
But I actually like Holland'sargument way more, because
you're right that if somebodycouldn't give there is a
heightened level of friendship,affection, that I think is
healthy.
Okay, that I am just startingto kind of like understand, like
even among my girlfriends, likeI just was, like I don't want
(44:18):
you to touch me, like don't hugme.
And, like over the last fewyears, that's been changing.
Speaker 4 (44:24):
Right, you used to be a non-hugger it was a woman.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
It was with women really, but that's fine and so
I'm like, I'm just like, I justreally don't, but now I don't
feel that way anymore and I itactually like.
I it's whatever.
I don't need to talk aboutmyself.
My point is you could havesensed my issue there from what
you're describing.
You wouldn't have had to gointo a sexual realm to notice
(44:47):
that.
So I actually do actually agreeA person that has the
healthiness of a heightenedfriendship affection.
Speaker 3 (44:54):
You're saying heightened, heightened,
heightened.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
Yeah, heightened, that's a word Holland.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
I thought it was heightened, but you're saying it
like a T-H, sorry, keep going.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
Heightened.
It's not heightened.
Heightened, heightened.
I think it's heightened, it'sheightened, heightened oh, I
don't think there's a th grew upin perryton, thinks he knows
how to pronounce somethingcorrectly.
I've only heard heightened.
Let's look it up.
Oh not, you wasn't him soclearly, so heightened okay is,
(45:27):
can we just move on?
Speaker 1 (45:28):
yeah, so a heightened , uh, heightened, go ahead.
You know, can I just tell the001776 joke now?
No, that's a good time for thatno, sorry, a whole episode for
that, oh my gosh, all right, allright, sorry, you've discovered
this reality okay.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
So I actually think holland's accurate.
Oh, if a person has healthyrelational whatever's, it's
going to come out in friendship.
Here's the big, big giantcaveat.
In our culture today, though,it's not a part of normal
friendship things, and so Ithink that that's where I do
have a bit of an issue.
Is like, as a church community,if we could pivot and become
more affectionate with brotherlywhatever you just said
(46:08):
greetings affectionate withbrotherly whatever you just said
greetings then maybe it wouldbe helpful, because we could see
oh look, these people arehealthy and normal and they're
not afraid of communicatingphysical affection.
That is healthy and appropriate, but we don't have that.
So then how?
Speaker 1 (46:23):
are we supposed to figure that out?
It's possible to have that Likemy mom grew up, like that.
I mean I saw her kissingeverybody and that was just
normal.
But so this is yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (46:31):
So this is important because, back to the original
question, we were talking aboutboundaries, like I think there's
a way to go so far in like oh,I'm not even going to like speak
to women other than my wife, orI'm never going to like yes,
I'm never going to like putmyself, you know but, like you
know, a healthy community islike I have.
(46:53):
You know I don't have like deep,close female friendships where
we just like talk one on one.
But I have, you know, my wife,my wife's friends, that you know
she's close with our families,are close together and we were
friends, like I call them myfriends and like there's women
in our church where you knowit's normal you greet each other
(47:13):
with a hug and you, you knowyou rub someone's shoulder when
you're praying for them and likethose kind of normal, healthy
things where you're not puttingso much boundaries and space so
much sexual sexualization oneverything that I think it is
screwing it up.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
And I would argue that, like there are certain
things that yeah, okay, fine, Ican be convinced.
Fine, I guess I feel like, yeah, I mean, that's a good argument
, holland, way to have a goodargument.
Wonderful that's calledmarriage.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
It's a productive podcast.
That was pretty productive.
That was way to go, yeah.
So I do think that was prettyproductive.
That was way to go, yeah.
So I do think I think thatthat's the part of it.
Speaker 2 (47:54):
Like.
What if we create a churchculture where men and women like
had?
Speaker 1 (47:56):
some physical connection.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
It is heightened by the way I just Googled it.
Oh, that's good, you in two ToHolland.
Two Adrian, zero All right,what a day.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
What a day.
All right, imagine just for asecond if we had that and there
were people that normalized hugs, affection, all of that, and
then they grew up in that.
That that's just what you didand you didn't have this
unbelievable, yeah, sense oflike.
Don't even look at that girlever.
Right, like I think, yeah,that's weird, right, it's not
(48:23):
normal, right so so, but I thinkit.
That culture exists.
What we have right now is thehyper victorian culture and the
hyper sexual.
That culture exists.
What we have right now is thehyper-Victorian culture and the
hyper-sexualized culture.
Yeah absolutely, and what weneed is a Christian culture
which is like you are greetingone another, you're in
fellowship with one another,you're like a family.
You're like a family.
Speaker 4 (48:40):
Brother and sister.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
And how many times are we peeling our boys off each
other?
And when our boys hang out withother girls and they're in a
big dog pile and they'rewrestling and they're whatever,
like now?
Granted, as they grow older,that affection should shift from
wrestling to just, you know,being fun.
And you, of all people, hadthat in high school.
Yeah, absolutely like.
(49:01):
I think what's weird is you'rethe only person I know that had
actual, genuine, realfriendships in high school.
Yeah, and beyond.
That was actually somethingthat was very admirable and
there wasn't any weird sexualright things and you had a lot
of you're still friends to thisday yeah how many high school
girls am I still friends with?
Speaker 2 (49:20):
like zero you're right and it wasn't.
It was exactly what you'redescribing, right.
It was healthy and we did hugeach other and we did sometimes
wrestle, okay.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
So there, I guess that's my point, right, like
like you had genuine friendshipslike so why wouldn't?
Wouldn't it be wise then, tohave continue that and then
maybe even marry one, a personlike yes, yes sure okay, so,
especially if you're 16 and it'san arranged marriage, right,
yeah, 100, yeah, I would agree.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
and I guess maybe now that I'm like you've fleshed
out, like you've kind of, Ithink, what I'm starting to boil
it down to in terms of myhang-up is there maybe are two
subjects here, and one isphysical affection and the other
is the ability to slow down andprioritize relationship and be
(50:12):
intentional in relationship.
And I think you can, you canslow down, prioritize
relationship and be intentionalin relationship and do it all
extremely appropriately.
And I think for me maybe I'mrealizing I was looking for
those things in the physicalaffection- Right.
(50:32):
And I think which was actually amisread, because one could
argue that you struggled withslowing down and prioritizing
relationship, but because we hadphysical affection, it felt
like it covered that, and sothen, the first few years of our
marriage, we had to work on theladder.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
And I'm probably still working through my ability
to slow down and connect.
I mean, that's I'm wired tolike let's go.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
So you could argue that I translated something
wrongly.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
Right, you made a mistake in marrying me.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
Well, I'm just kidding, I'm kidding I mean, I
guess maybe that's what I'm kindof getting at and really that's
not something that neededphysical affection to discern.
So that's interesting and evenin that situation where you
weren't very good at that andyou could argue that was our
purity solution, busyness, whenin reality it wasn't.
(51:21):
It was a separate problem thatdid come out more in marriage
and it's something that God'sbeen faithful to healing, yeah,
redeeming, yeah.
So so that's good, that'sreally good Full circle.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
You know, what we do here at FasterPlex podcast is we
really take you to the fullgamut of emotions on issues
facing our culture today.
So, man, thank you guys so muchfor watching Any other final
thoughts from uh, the peanutgallery over here.
Speaker 5 (51:49):
We talked a lot about like starting, aiming for
perfection, but I just want toencourage people that if you've
already slipped up, it's not toolate.
Pablo and I can speak into that.
Like it was four years of freefor all and conviction came and
it was super hard, but movingout and like God rewards that
(52:11):
still and he sees, and I wouldencourage anyone at any stage
too.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
Yeah, I love what you just said.
I do feel like sometimesthere's this classic Matt
Chandler sermon where, uh, hetells a story about you know a
purity thing, and the guy, theevangelist, hands a rose to a
dude in the first row and he'stalking to all these singles.
They say, hey, pass this around, smell it.
And then the rose finally comesback to the front and he says
(52:37):
if you've given away your purity, this is what you are and it's
the rose that leaves the line.
Speaker 2 (52:41):
Oh, this is the worst .
Speaker 1 (52:44):
And then the whole time it's like the most
defeating thing.
Everyone there just feels shameand what Chandler is saying is
he's sitting there and he's like, but Jesus wants the rose, and
Jesus wants your brokenness, hewants your defeatedness, he
wants all that.
And then he makes it all new.
And I think the great partabout what for Adrian and me is
(53:04):
like even though we both hadissues from our own past and
stuff that God really hassanctified it and glorified
himself and we are at a place ofreal joy where we have
conversations like this a lotand it's really wonderful.
And I'm just noticing you guysin your marriage and the joy on
your face Brie is of a womanwho's well-loved as opposed to
(53:24):
like just being in the abyss, ofjust trying to control.
You know Pablo, so that youdon't feel bad all the time, and
that's a huge difference.
That gets to be excited.
And now I watch you championinghim as he makes his way into
ministry and it's wild to watchand it's exciting to watch.
And so you guys should justreally I mean obviously you're
in glorify God and that, butjust take joy in what Jesus is
(53:47):
doing in your own lives andcelebrate it.
That, but just take joy in whatJesus is doing in your own
lives and celebrate it, and thenI think that's what I think
ultimately, that's what's goingto make, um, the, what we're
talking about attractive topeople that are not buying in is
you're able to give a pictureof what a relationship the way
it was designed to be can looklike.
All right.
(54:09):
Hey guys, thanks so much forwatching.
We love questions, so text in737-231-0605 or go to
pastorplekcom.
We'd love to hear from you.
So, from our house to yours,have an awesome week.
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec,with a slew of guests on our
show today.
Uh, and we'll start with, uh,the sweet adrian plec and pull,
how are you?
I'm doing great feeling, reallysweet and then also pastor
holland from the east side.
So glad to have you joining us.
Thanks, chris.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
And then pablo and brie mot Side, so glad to have
you joining us.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Thanks, Chris.
And then Pablo and Brie Motaand their son Zekiel joining us
on the podcast.
How are you guys doing?
Good?
All right, so we're talkingquestions.
We had a question that came infrom this past week, and so it's
hot.
This is a hot take question andI'm going to read it for you
(00:46):
right off of the text.
You know you can text us at737-231-0605 and this person
texted in what do I do if I'm inlove with a married man who is
in a sexless marriage?
This is a great question andone that probably needs to be
(01:07):
addressed, because I think thatprobably a lot of people have
had this question.
So let's just go right to ourguest today to see what they
would.
You know, adrienne.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Oh good.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Any thoughts here I?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
have a lot of thoughts.
What?
Speaker 1 (01:24):
do you think I'm assuming this is a woman what do
you think this woman should doif she's in love with a married
man who's in a sexless marriage?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
well, she needs to find a way to redirect her
passion yeah but I have somequestions as to like does it,
does the marriage being sexless,make her feel like she?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Is she the answer?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
The marital covenant is like void now.
Like that's weird, Like that'sirrelevant.
Sexless marriage, abusivemarriage I don't really care
what marriage they're in, it's amarried man.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Right, and what makes you think that he'll have sex
with you?
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Well, is she even asking that?
Speaker 1 (02:03):
That's a good point.
Well, she's in love with him.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
You're suggesting is that he's the reason it's
sexless?
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Well, I mean it takes two to tango, right?
So I mean there might be areason she does the.
The other, the married woman,doesn't want to have sex with
her husband.
And so when you're sort for thegreener, grass, right, yeah,
you're just new set of problems,right?
Okay, so let's go to uh.
(02:29):
Pablo, what do you think?
Or brie, what do you think?
Speaker 5 (02:33):
I think there's a lot of issues here.
Okay, on both sides on thisguy's part and on her part,
right, um.
But yeah, I feel like the like.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I don't know why the sexless marriage was thrown in
there well, probably because shethinks she has a relationship
with this man who is married tosomebody else, and she's
probably thinking it's time forher to either move in or move
out, and I think your advice atthis point would be get out.
Speaker 5 (03:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think there is some typeof relationship going on,
because how does she know, oh,how clearly there has been some
type of emotional somethinggoing on between these two for
her to know so much.
And it's not like you seesomeone and you fall in love,
like that's something that takestime and getting to know
someone.
So it's like are you truly inlove, are you lusting after a
(03:23):
married man?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
like yeah, that's the other issue I'm having is like
you can care about somebody, youcan love somebody but not be in
love with them.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Well, I mean, this could be like a famous person,
like I'm in love with that staron the screen and I'm assuming
from all the tabloids they haveno sex in their marriage and I
could be the solution.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Either way, to even engage.
The thought of I'm in love likebeing in love is a to me,
that's like it's a decision.
Right, we talk about this, thatthe choice to love your spouse
is a decision.
It's not a feeling.
And I can care about a lot ofpeople.
I can love a lot of peoplebecause I care about them, but
that's different than being inlove with them, which is a
choice to like.
(04:10):
So why?
I don't know.
I guess I'm like Shouldn't havegotten there.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
OK, pastor Han, how would you pastor this person
through her current likefeelings, to get her to a place
of healing and wholeness?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Yeah, the situation to me sounds like a situation
that Satan has been working like, uh, in a lot of different ways
.
One sexless marriage.
Satan's at work there, right,it's.
It's God's desire for marriagesto be sexually intimate and
full of life and love, and soSatan's obviously been at work
there.
There's issues going on there.
Then, you know, for this otherwoman to fall in love with this
(04:51):
man, she's whether the marriageis sexless or not.
If you're in love with amarried man, that's you've been.
You've not been led there byGod, you know you've been led
there by the lust of your fleshand the lies of the enemy.
And then bringing up thesexless part of it is like a way
to maybe justify or like doesthis give me the right?
Ok, you know I'm in love with amarried man and I know that's
(05:15):
wrong in general, but he hasthis kind of miserable marriage
Does that give me the right tokind of like, step in and insert
myself into this relationship?
And so, basically, it looks likethe work of the enemy all
throughout it, and so you needto counter that with the truth
of God's word that says flee,sexual immorality.
So what do you do if you're inlove with a married man in a
sexless marriage you flee.
(05:35):
You flee sexual immorality.
You confess to God and tosomeone else in church that
you're having these um desiresand temptations and struggles
and you seek help um to move onand accept the reality that
marriage is meant to bepermanent and um the best thing
for a sexless marriage is not toend that marriage, you know,
(05:58):
and break it off with someaffair, but rather for them to
seek healing and help from theirown church community.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yeah, and I think the pastor with this woman, I would
say hey, there's a, there's aBible verse for you, second
Corinthians 10, five.
We destroy arguments at everylofty opinion raised against
knowledge of God, meaning youknow that this is not of God.
Yeah, and I know that there's ajustification.
I know that your heart is.
You know, if God only knew myheart.
(06:24):
Well, god does know your heartand it's wicked and deceitful
above all things.
And so, because all humanhearts are like that, we can't
trust our heart.
That's why we have God's word,god's spirit and God's people.
And God's spirit can beconfusing sometimes, because
you're like is that me or isthat God?
Is it me?
God's word is very clear thatthis is it's sin to break up a
(06:45):
marriage or, you know, kind ofeven have desires for this
married man.
Like that is a sinful desire,like that is not a oh, we're all
tempted.
No, that's a sinful desire.
And the way you handle that in2 Corinthians 10, 5 is take
every thought captive to obeyChrist.
(07:06):
And so I think this part oflike obeying Jesus, you have got
to get into the war of yourmind to take that thought
captive and say I'm going toobey Jesus, even if it causes me
personal pain and heartache,because I have such love that I
have to mortify in my fleshbecause I know that Christ is
(07:28):
worth it.
Do we really believe that Jesusis enough?
We sing the songs you're morethan enough.
We talk about Jesus and we askpeople.
We say this every Sunday.
Your soul feeds on Jesus likeyour body feeds on bread.
In the same way that your bodyphysically needs food to sustain
, you need Jesus to sustain, andif you replace Jesus with
(07:51):
sexual immorality, it mightsatisfy momentarily but ends up
making you starving and leads todeath.
So I think that'd be the simpleanswer there, and I do think
this is something that let'sjust take beyond the situation,
because I do feel like there area lot of couples that are like
(08:12):
they're wanting to justify theirsin by the condition that
they're in, and what I mean bythat is listen, we're not ready
to get married yet, but whyshould we be paying two rents?
Why would we live being tworents?
You know why.
Why would we live apart fromeach other?
Like that doesn't make anysense and what?
What you're doing with that isyou're saying I want to use sex
(08:35):
for a financial gain what wenormally call.
That's prostitution.
But but in this moment, like,like, like.
Nobody wants to say that, butyou're saying like, no, the
reason that I need to live withthis person before we're married
is for financial to get aheadfinancially.
And no one wants to say that'sprostitution.
But what is prostitution?
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Okay, except that if you're sleeping together,
whether you're living togetheror not, it's sort of a different
conversation living together ornot.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
It's sort of a different conversation, but.
But I guess what I'm saying islike if the only reason that
you're living together you wouldsay, like I believe that we
need to be married and all that,I believe there's a right way
to go, but right now we justcan't afford it, then you're
then becoming what is that?
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (09:21):
yeah, I guess if you're saying you're abstinent,
living separate and then nowliving together, you're not fine
.
But I don't know anyone that'ssexually abstinent and then
moves in and then starts havingsex.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
No, no, right.
But most people have sex first,right, right, and then they
justify it by saying I need topay rent, so therefore, why
don't we They'll justify the sinthat they're already entangled
in with their financial benefits, yeah with circumstances,
absolutely, and I think that'strue for a lot of sins, for sure
, yeah, but I think typicallythe excuse doesn't.
(09:56):
Is prostitution too hard?
Speaker 2 (09:58):
No, no, it's fine, but it's just like it's silly,
because sex is a present bothways.
So it's not like you're, it'snot like the money.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Right, you're using the person for financial gain,
which is weird.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
But you're using the person, whether there's
financial gain or not.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Sure, but I guess what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So you're justifying the justification, you're a
victim of the sex now because ofyou need the rent.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
I need the rent, right.
That's like a passiveprostitution, sure Fine.
It's like there's nothing I cando.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
My point is your sin is following the circum.
I'm sorry.
The circumcise is behind, it'sdragging behind the sin Right,
and so the sin's there, and nowyou're trying to justify it with
circumstance.
It's not usually, I think, thecircumstance that then.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Right, I think there's a non-intentionality,
right.
So the intentionality is like Iwant to be in relation with
this person.
Oh, I love being in relationwith this person.
Oh man, oops, we had sex.
Okay, well, you know, it'sreally hard to not have sex.
We're already having sex.
We might move in because it'scheaper.
I think that's where thateventually goes.
But that's like an accidentalway to do your life.
(11:14):
It's not without intentionality.
And then all of a sudden youfind yourself using the reason
it's cheaper, which reallycheapens the whole relationship,
I think that's the story.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
I agree, and I think, even going back to our example,
like, say, the man in thissexless marriage decides to end
the marriage, right, okay.
And so now and say it's abiblical divorce, we'll just go
that far.
Let's go that far.
Let's say that.
Okay, so the man is now out ofhis marriage.
It was a biblical divorce.
This woman is ready to come in.
(11:44):
I guess that's where I wouldsay you're a fool if you think
that you can enter inrelationship with this man, even
though relationship is not sin.
You're crazy if you think it'sgoing to be without most of the
issues that he probably had inhis last relationship A and B,
without issue.
(12:04):
From your past experiences it'slike you're completely crazy if
you think that this is whateverchemistry and connection you
have today is going to just onlyget more positive and more
committed.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
And sin makes us crazy, more positive and more
committed.
And sin makes us crazy Likewhat you were saying completely
crazy is not like whoever sentin this question like you're
some unique crazy person.
Like we all have this crazinessthat we start, we get into,
like have some sinful desire andwe start fantasizing about it,
not even exclusive to just likelust and sexual stuff, but like
(12:42):
some kind of selfish thing thatwe get this idea, this vision in
our head about and then westart looking for reasons to
justify it.
And so sin makes you crazy.
And this sounds like one ofthose situations where it's just
like oh man, I'm in love, he'sunhappy, wouldn't it just be
better for everyone?
And you start going down thispath of trying to justify it
(13:03):
because, well, it's a sexlessmarriage and we're in love, and
dah, dah, dah, dah.
But if you're able to justactually step back from the
situation and just deal with itin I don't know the strict terms
of like what God wants for youin this is very clear Leave it
alone, move on.
You know, like that man made acommitment, vowed until death,
(13:24):
do us part.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
You know like I think that's why it's really hard,
and I think this is where youknow the dynamics of men and
women, friendships andconnections.
It's like at some point, I'msure this was a very pure
relationship of friendship typething and somehow it crossed the
line, like, somehow it wentfrom oh, hey, hey, how are you
doing?
Oh, it's good to see you, youknow, in passing to a
(13:47):
conversation that somehow talkedabout his sex life.
I don't like, how do you getthere with, uh, as a married man
, with another woman?
Like that is that should benever talked about in.
Like just, oh, you know, you'rethrown around.
Here's how my sex life is going.
You know, it'd be really greatif I had some more sex.
Oh, I wish I could fulfill thatfor you.
(14:08):
Like, I think, is that how thatgoes?
I mean, how did, how did thoseconversations even get to that
point?
Speaker 4 (14:13):
yeah, well, I think, after, after, uh, having been in
positions where I'm totallylike, blinded by a female's
intentions toward me, but thenBree points them out, it's like
a little bit easier to seethings like that now.
(14:34):
But I think that and look, ifyou're the person that's saying
this question like I'm notsaying this is you, but that a
lot of times this is probablywhat's happened is that a female
has a special interest in a guy.
She finds him attractive, shethinks he's cool, and all along,
like maybe I don't know if itwas intentional or not, but that
(14:56):
relationship starts.
And I think if you're thatperson, that boundary has
already been crossed the momentthat you start that relationship
Right, person, that boundaryhas already been crossed the
moment that you start thatrelationship Right, because you
know that you have certainfeelings toward that person that
shouldn't be there, that you'vealready send in your head and
now you're taking action, and soyou know not to say that that
(15:17):
that's what this person did, butjust to say that even you know,
starting that relationship iscrossing a boundary that
shouldn't have been crossed.
Yeah, definitely, um, and howit unravels from that point on
is you know?
Speaker 1 (15:31):
well, let's talk about that.
How, what kind of boundariesshould we have as men and women?
Uh, married men and women?
Uh, and I think I'm assumingthat this woman is single.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
That's where it gets a little bit confusing well, and
one thing I was going to saybefore, that is I I don't
necessarily think I think thatthe information of a sexless
marriage can come off in a lotof environments.
I don't think it's notnecessarily a one-on-one
conversation, so I guess this iswhere I'm like it's.
(16:01):
Also, I'd be curious what thecontext of their friendship is.
You know, because you're ingroups of friends with people
making jokes or comments all thetime and you can have, you can
learn information about peopleand what's going on, and it
might not necessarily been likeI haven't had sex Right.
I mean that's kind of a commonlike a person that's in a
(16:23):
marriage where there is no sexis probably, and if they're open
, an open person, they're makingjokes about it, they're making
comments about it, like itdoesn't necessarily have to be
this intimate conversation.
Okay, and so I guess thatthat's where.
So I guess in my mind, thisfriendship isn't necessarily
like.
This goes back to what I saidat the beginning of her
(16:43):
phraseology of I'm in love, I'mlike man.
That's to me.
That's the problem it's like isthe co-ed relationship to me is
I don't know, that's just myview.
I don't necessarily thinkthat's the problem.
The problem is this is a she'schosen a mindset to see this man
in.
That is a choice, like shecould decide to care about him
(17:06):
and she could decide to be prohis marriage, but she's choosing
not to be pro his marriage andnot and care about him in the
way that, ultimately, would bethe best thing for him.
Instead, she's choosing to toselfishly desire to fulfill
something in him that wouldactually be to his detriment and
to her detriment.
And she's choosing a narrative,a context of which to view the
(17:30):
relationship where she's in love, like she's not just I'm not, I
like this guy, I enjoy this guy, I care about this guy, like,
I'm in love with him, like, likehow do you move?
that you don't, don't go thereLike, be on, be in love.
And if you can't unbe in love,then then flee, okay, fine, but
like or just choose to unbe inlove, or choose to love him,
(17:52):
which means be pro free for hismarriage, exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Like Hebrews 13, four let marriage be held in honor
among all.
So like number one, that, likethat's you gotta be your
personal commitment.
As a Christian, I'm going tohonor marriage and I want him to
honor his marriage Right.
And then it says and let themarriage bed be undefiled, for
God will judge the sexuallyimmoral and adulterous.
So you gotta know, like if thisperson who's sending this in is
(18:18):
a Christian, you gotta knowyou're thinking about doing
something that brings about thejudgment of God.
And if you're reallyconsidering that, you got to
consider are you really aChristian?
And if so, repent from thatdesire, not just from the action
, but repent from the desire andhumble yourself before God and
ask him to help you holdmarriage and honor.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Yeah, and I think if you're at this point where you
haven't gone through with it yet, you're at a I'm not saying
great place, but you're at abetter place.
How about that Then, if you had?
Yeah, so this is a great timeto bring in church leadership.
This is a great time to saylike, hey, I am at this place of
vulnerability in my own heart.
I know I'm about to go down adark path.
Yeah, speak truth into my life.
(19:00):
Pray the gospel over me, askthe Holy Spirit to give you the
courage and the accountabilitystructure that you need.
That's why community is such apowerful, takes such a powerful
part in somebody's life, and Ithink also if for the person
with the question.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
I think one thing that I always have to do in my
life, whether it's like an areaof temptation like this or in my
parenting, my huge like I don'twant to go home, in 45 minutes
I just don't, I would rather doliterally anything else.
Okay, and I'm like so, my, soit's not Adrian, like confess,
(19:37):
you don't want to go home.
It's like no, I'm praying toGod for the desire to engage.
I'm praying to God for thedesire for the energy to go
engage and to parent and to holdthe kids accountable to the
things like and and so.
In this, in the context of thistemptation, I'm praying to God
that God would give me a desirefor this man, the health of this
(20:00):
man's marriage, cause clearly,I mean, it doesn't sound like
she's got that right.
She's kind of hopeful that themarriage, like, is kind of done
and so I'm like, so, if you'reso, focus on, like, if God could
change your heart and you couldbecome for his marriage and for
what's best for him and for you, then, like that, ultimately
(20:22):
that's more effective than thisquote, unquote fleeing, which I
kind of.
I think fleeing is biblical andI don't want to make fun of it,
but there is kind of this likeI'm going to put my fingers in
my ears and close my eyes andjust going to pretend like this
doesn't exist and I'm just goingto run away from it.
But it's always kind of on thisback burner as this option that
you're either actively runningaway from, but maybe that's
sitting there.
(20:42):
And what would be to me what'shealthier is to say, man, like,
completely kind of what you weresaying, holland, like, undo
that desire that I have.
So, god, like, give me a desirefor what would be healthy and
honoring to you, and in themeantime I'm going to take
actions that are going to helpme align with that desire and
that then now you have thisredeemed friendship, where that
(21:06):
feels good.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
I love what I think.
It's not that she loves him toomuch.
She loves him too little,Because if she really loved him
she would say I want she wouldchallenge him because she would
know and granted, it's hard toknow this but you love him too
little because you want hisaffections over what is best for
him.
Right, and what is best for himis marriage, the way God
(21:28):
designed it, and for them tohave sex within their marriage
Absolutely.
And so by loving him more, youwould say God, please help them
have sex in their marriage,Ignite a fire and chemistry
within them and encourage thatsort of behavior, as opposed to
the selfish thing to love himless, to love yourself more is
to flirt or whatever.
(21:50):
It is where you steal affectionaway.
So maybe he'll want me more,and I don't know if she's doing
that.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
No, but that's exactly it.
And so if she could get to aplace where she could care about
him enough to want the thingsof God for him, then to me
there's a I don't know.
To me that's like that's theultimate win, because then
you're not.
It's not like you're trying towhite knuckle this resistance to
temptation, but instead you'reactually repenting of a desire
(22:16):
that was ungodly and changing itinto a desire that is godly,
which we're having to do thatwith.
A lot Like parenting is justone example of, I mean, like a
work ethic, like choosing towork hard at a job that you're
sick of and that you're tired of.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
And you have cruddy people to work with and for.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Right, and so it's arguably sinful to kind of check
out and not try.
I mean, god makes it very clearwe're supposed to work unto the
Lord and so I'm like, so we'regoing to pray for that desire to
change, not just try to like,resist the temptation to be lazy
.
So I think there's like andyour actions have to follow.
(22:53):
So there is, it is twofold, butI just feel Like.
I think in all in all of my likeChristian, like they wouldn't
have to be Christian, but in allof our like couple friendships
and relationships, like that'sone of the reasons that I'm
always like, mindfully prayerfulof, like of my girlfriends and
(23:15):
of their marriages and and themen that we are friends with.
It's like if you're praying andyou're disciplined about like,
truly desiring the things of God, yeah, then your mind is not
caught up in, you get stoppedlong before you're down this
road of inappropriate crossingof boundary things, because you
(23:38):
want the things of God for themand you care about them, and so
yeah, I want to go back to whatHolland said with just like a
misordered love or you don'tlove them enough, like, let's
talk about like in, just likenot this particular situation,
but like two single people loveeach other and they would say I
just love them so much I got tohave.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
you know, I just how can I resist?
I need to have sex with thembecause I love them so much.
And I would say, and probablyeveryone here would agree, that
you love them too little.
Like, love them too.
The reason why you love themtoo little is because you don't
love them enough to put downyour selfishness of I want my
desire fulfilled for theholiness of God which ultimately
, for their, for God's glory andtheir ultimate best, you guys,
(24:21):
brie, probably can you guysspeak into that.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
Yeah, I mean, I've seen I don't know if it's lack
of knowledge or just pureignorance and selfishness but
I've met someone who you know,made the excuse of we can't
afford to rent, so we have tomove in, right, and we had a
move for dinner and I, you knowwe have to move in Right, and we
had them over for dinner andwe've gone through this Right.
(24:45):
And so I share our testimony.
And we have friends that havegone through this and your
testimony is that you were thatcouple, yeah, but we tried our
best to fix the situation andobviously it wasn't perfect,
right, but we still saw ablessing from it, yeah, and we
have friends that essentiallydid the same thing and they saw
(25:06):
a lot of blessing from it.
And what I try to tell him is Iget your point from a world
perspective, like your finances,whatever, but just know you're
setting up your marriage not forfailure, but it's going to be
hard, like it's not going to beeasy.
And you know, I give them allthe scriptures, I give them
(25:29):
specific examples.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
And even your own life.
When you, when you give yourown life example, they're not
like, wow, that's powerful.
I'm glad you did the rightthing, yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
And it was so sad because at the end it basically
it was so sad because at the endit basically he straight up was
like I know that's God's will,but this is what I'm going to do
and I'm just going to hope forthe best and genuinely the
conversation was out of love.
I'm like dude, like you thinkyou're helping your family, but
(26:00):
you're not.
They both have kids fromseparate.
You know, I don't knowmarriages, but I'm just like
dude, you're not doing what youactually think you're doing that
.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
And I feel the same exact way about these marriages
where we're having a well likewhen you have to get in, when
you have to get married, have toget in, when you have to get
married immediately, because thetemptation, I think that's a
(26:29):
double-sided coin, because Ithink sometimes I'm like, okay,
there's some humility in saying,yep, we understand that there's
huge temptation here.
I think, especially if you havea past with that person, like
you're, you're like kind of inthis lose lose situation, you've
opened up this realm.
I mean, that's, that's.
I think so.
I think there's a healthybalance between having wisdom
(26:51):
and saying, okay, we're notgoing to set ourselves up for
more failure, to sin, and goingahead and getting married sooner
than we had planned.
But I think that is a I thinkso.
I think there's a context forit, I think there's a place for
it.
But I also think that when itbecomes kind of a norm in a
Christian community to just havea whole bunch of early weddings
, I'm like, well, hang on, likethe same amount of self-control
(27:14):
that you're struggling to haveyou're going to have to have.
You're going to still have thatsame amount of self-control
struggle, and I don't care whenthe people then get married and
go, oh, we don't have theproblem anymore.
I'm like give it five years,Like.
Like, like, give it a littlebit of time.
Okay, yeah, you're right, Inyour first year of marriage
you're going to not think thatthere's problems because there's
not a need to restrain yourself, but that same same need to
(27:35):
like give into what feels goodand like, in the moment,
indulging the desires of yourflesh.
Like you don't want to be yokedwith someone that has a history
of always indulging the desiresof their flesh and like you
don't want that.
So find the balance.
Like I still think I I do wantit to be, cause I don't think
it's always a mistake to have anearly wedding, but I think that
(27:58):
when it becomes kind of this,like yeah, we're not sleeping
together, but you know we wouldlike to start in three months
because it's just getting toohard, and then we're just going
to have our wedding two yearslater, I'm like figure out how
to get a wedding in three months.
That is your wedding that you'rehappy about, or figure out how
to wait for an appropriateamount of time to have the
wedding that you want.
But to me, what that shows isthat there's two parties
(28:19):
involved and they're indisagreement, and the person
who's refusing to wait to me isthe person that we need to watch
for.
I'm like if the woman reallywants her wedding, then love her
enough to give her a wedding,but then, woman, hold your
wedding with an open hand enoughto get it figured out in six
months from now.
You know what I mean?
(28:40):
Like meet each other halfway.
That's, the rest of your lifeis going to be working out those
two things.
So if you can't and if it can'tdo it, this is where I, kind of
going back to you and I, chris,like I felt like we, we were
quick, but we were um, thetiming was more connected to my
work schedule than it was.
We can't wait for three moremonths.
(29:01):
Right, it was kind of like wewanted to set our early months
up in marriage where we wouldhave time to do a honeymoon in
time.
So that was logisticallydifferent, but it was still very
much like it would have beenfoolish for us to just give it a
whole nother year.
That would have been foolish,and so I think you just have to
hold that tension well, but youalso have to recognize that
whatever is causing the tensionof not being able to wait today,
(29:25):
that's not going away.
It'll just re-manifest intosomething else.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Yeah, I think that.
Yeah, I think it goes back tojust how much do you love
someone.
Because I just am so in lovewith you, I must have no.
No, I'm so in love with you, Ican resist.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Exactly, exactly, and I'm so in love with you I can
have a wedding that's maybe notas fancy as I wanted, or I'm so
in love with you that, yeah,I'll.
I'll not hang out with you asmuch because I can't control
myself and I want to, and andyou made that was always a
really big for me.
When you and I were dating, youhad gone further with other
girls and I was all I was likepretty insecure about that and
(30:04):
so I pushed the envelope becauseI was like you can't be this
serious with me if you haven'tright done these things with me.
And you were like, adrienne, I,I love you and I want something
better for you than what I gaveto what I've done in the past,
and I couldn't see it like that,which was frustrating.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
yeah, yeah, and not to make we were ever like
perfect by any stretch of theimagination, but yeah, we've had
to work out a lot of that stuffin our marriage and so I think
what a lot of this, like youdon't love them.
I think to say you don't lovethem enough reorders your mind
to say, because I think in your,if you love someone, you're
like I'm willing to do whateverI need to do for this person.
(30:45):
And I think if I would have hadsomebody say to me at that time
, I would have had betterlanguage, if I could have said
Adrienne, I love you so muchthat I don't want to go this
direction.
That would have been a waybetter thing to say.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
And I think at the time your reasoning was like a
purity reasoning and I think,and I think at the time your
reasoning was like a purityreason yeah.
And I was kind of like, well,that's water under the bridge,
you know, like who cares at thispoint.
Like you've already crossed thelike.
There's not purity here, right,but I didn't understand the
consequences of some of thosevery like.
Seemingly insignificant thingshad consequence that I didn't
(31:24):
anticipate, and I actually thinkyour motive was because you
cared about our relationship.
I just I was too immature tosee that.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
And I didn't have the language for it.
I wish, going back, I couldhave said I love you so much.
I don't want to put I want.
I want the best for you andwhat God's best for you is me
restraining our physicalintimacy until the time is right
.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Yeah, and I think, and I even think within that
there might have to becompromise, but because,
remember, you started okay here,this will be interesting.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
So do you remember when you started with no kissing
which Holland you started?
Okay, here this will beinteresting, oh wow.
So do you remember you startedwith no kissing which Holland
you did?
You didn't kiss Jenny rightTill your wedding day.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
No, we, we didn't for a while.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Yeah, we, I asked Chris like when we have a
reputation around here is notkissing her till your wedding
day.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Started that, not me, I'm pretty sure you do.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
You have a reputation around here as not kissing her
until your wedding day, sort ofthat.
Not me, you do you have areputation.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
It wasn't either Chris or I, but I won't.
What I encourage and what Itried to practice and what I saw
accountability for was the ideathat I think is scriptural is
until she's your wife, she'syour sister, and so there's not
some middle ground in Scriptureof dating or engaged has this
(32:52):
advanced level of intimacy.
That's not full marriage, butit's more than just friends or
something, and so that's what Iwould counsel people to do is,
song of Solomon don't stir uplove until it pleases.
Don't awaken love until itpleases.
Don't do anything that you knowis sexually arousing until
you're married.
But in terms of like how we didat that, that was something I
(33:18):
had to like get accountabilityfrom a lot of people in church,
and we tried really like JamesMeyer.
He lived together at the timeand he would call you and be
like no, he, I mean he justlived there.
He was there for all of ourdates.
He would watch.
When Jenny would come over towatch a movie, he would just
watch it with us wait, you livedwith James, yeah, so before
(33:39):
before DD moved off of Old FishLane.
Before Jenny and I were married,we lived together.
And when Jenny would come over,james would just oh.
Before Dee Dee moved Before OldFish Lane, before Jenny and I
were married, we lived together.
And when Jenny would come over,james would just sit in between
us on the couch.
That's a real friend, yeah, andyeah, I mean I would get random
texts from him all the time,just like hand check.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
So we tried to do, you know, only date in public.
You know we tried to implementa lot of that stuff and there
was, you know, when we stumbled.
One time I confessed to Chrisand I was serving in the youth
ministry at the time and Chriswas like there's grace for one
time and he said if you do itagain, you have to step down.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Space that follows his grace.
Yes, that's good.
But I was like sweet, I like Iappreciated that and we, you
know, we took it reallyseriously and um sweet I like I
appreciated that and we, youknow we took it really seriously
and, um, I don't know it washelpful, uh, because I think
when we started dating, you werelike I was trying extremist,
right, and I know that, and Ithink.
And so he was like we're notkissing and I'm like, well,
that's stupid, like, like.
(34:36):
And I think that that's what Imean by give it's actually
genius that's what I compromise,but I thought it was so dumb
and I'm like don't be so selfishthat you can't kiss me and
that's I was trying to, and Iwish I would have said I love
you so much that I think I wouldhave said figure out how to get
control of yourself and be ableto kiss me.
So this is where I'm like maybethat's not fair, but I just feel
(34:59):
kind of like that was crazy.
I thought it was crazy, Ithought it was absolutely insane
.
So I I didn respect that.
So maybe that should have beena red flag for you.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
See, I think this is pure.
I think a kiss like a peck, akiss on the cheek.
I'm like David and Jonathankissed Paul and Peter said greet
each other with a holy kiss.
There is a form of giving akiss that is friendly, brotherly
, even, brother-sisterly even.
(35:31):
But when you go to making out,when you go to like that is like
awakening love.
That is going beyond, that'sstirring up love and arousing
something that's meant formarriage, that can only be
consummated in the marriage bed,and so that's where, if you're
doing that, you're I I would sayyou're, you're already out of
line and not on a good path.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
yep, christmas grace, you really screwed up nice yeah
yeah, it's like listen, hey,you know, I I do feel like that
there's grace and all that right, like I feel like there's
redemption and like you canright the ship, so to speak, by
really leaning into God's graceand leaning into God's favor,
(36:11):
leaning into God's joy.
But starting right helps youcontinue, right?
Yeah, why not just start fromthe beginning, doing it right?
Yeah, you'll have to have ahuge course correction.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
And like I thought we did, like we fought really hard
to protect, you know, purity,like we did sin and we did
stumble, and there are timeswhen I confessed and you know we
needed grace there, but a lotof it was like no one even
shared that conviction.
Like Chris was, like the onlyother person that even, like,
agreed that we should holdourselves to that standard.
Like all my other, evenChristian friends, were like
(36:46):
dude who cares, no, you shouldmake out, you should do this,
you should do that.
And so for me, like I had nevereven met anyone that held that
conviction, and so I wasquestioning whether or not it
was even right.
I do.
I have Christian friends who aremarried, who actually did wait
until they got married to evenhave their first kiss, who did
wait for any kind of, you knowthat that kind of affection or
(37:09):
intimacy, and I'm like it'spossible and it is possible, it
really is.
And it's just so crazy to theworld and that has rubbed off so
much on the church, I think.
But if we just go like what isthe standard scripture puts
forward for us, there's not amiddle ground in between, you
know, and it's just seems socrazy.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
And I would never act like I have a way forward for
dating people.
I'm like you're screwed, likeeverybody's screwed, like we
should all be getting married atlike 16.
I really believe that.
Like I just think we're made tobe getting married at 16 and
having imagine if you'repregnant at like 17 years old
like that's a lot easier.
I just think we're made forthat.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
I think that it's just I think you heard it here
first Trad Wives with Adrienne.
We're going to do arrangedmarriages and you can sign up
for your marriage at Adriennecom, for your marriage at adriancom
.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Biologically.
We were not made on any levelto put this off like we do.
Like not at all.
Like mentally, emotionally,like you can't find me a girl
that doesn't have some hangup ofsome high school college
boyfriend crush somethingbecause women are.
I mean our 15-year-old crush,our 18-year-old summer boyfriend
(38:31):
, is still haunting us becausewe not haunting us, gosh.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
Let me Wow.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
But there's still a, there's still a.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
They're burned in your memory because we're so
emotional and connected.
And dudes aren't the same, menaren't the same, but God made us
that way for a lot of goodpurposes.
But that's what I mean by noteven on a physical level, but an
emotional, spiritual connection, relational.
God wired us and designed usand our, our society, just isn't
(39:05):
set up.
I don't think, for how we werewired and designed and so Right.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
So what is the way forward?
I think that's a great questionto ask, I mean.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
I think Holland outlined it.
I think what Holland said is it, and I and that's why I say, is
like I obviously didn't, Wouldyou?
Speaker 1 (39:19):
be able to counsel somebody and say no, I can't.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
I wouldn't be able to do that why, because I just
think it's.
I can't like in my mind I'mlike we're in a broken world.
I don't know what to tell you.
Try and fail, but try to makeyour fail to where it's not as
bad why not?
I mean I wouldn't, I reallydon't have it why do you do the
(39:41):
counseling for these things.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Why not?
Speaker 1 (39:43):
aim for God.
You've heard it Shoot for thestars, you'll hit the moon.
Why not aim for perfect andthen understand God's grace is
amazing and then live in thatfreedom, as opposed to live in
this quasi?
I don't really know what'sright, what's wrong.
I think that's what makes ithard.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Well, I just don't really know what's right, what's
wrong.
I think that's what makes ithard, because then, well, I just
don't think it's ever right,like, like, I could have kissed
you longer than a brotherlygreeting and I would have been
fine, I could have gone to bedthat night with no sexual
problem and you and, but that'sbecause I had not really get it
right, I didn't reallyunderstand, I didn't know and I
would have.
I didn't really understand, Ididn't know and I would have
been caught up in the emotionalconnection of it, whereas the
(40:30):
same, on the other side of thatsame relationship now there
could be a man that's strugglingmore sexually and I'm like so,
shoot for what?
Shoot for holiness, right?
So I would say I would havebeen in holiness and you
wouldn't have been in holiness.
So now I have to shoot for yourholiness.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
And so it's like so, every relationship you're having
to shoot for the holiness ofthe more depraved person in the
moment meaning like, thestandard is I treat you like a
brother or I treat you like asister until we're married, and
then you get to enjoy the peoplehave a lot of sexual
dysfunction yeah, it might comeout in the non-brotherly
(41:10):
greeting.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
Yes, what, what?
Okay, like what are you?
Speaker 2 (41:16):
saying there are people who, to me, okay, if
someone can't be like romanticor be sexual, uh, not sexually,
physically affectionate, mm-hmm,you need to kind of like.
I actually listen, you're not.
Both of you are going todisagree with me, but there are.
There are people that physicalaffection and they have
(41:41):
childhood problems.
They weren't given affection aschildren.
They're uncomfortable withaffection, they're uncomfortable
with slowing down, and so Iwould say you're a fool to go
get married to someone that'sjust crushing it on this
discipline and this distance,because I'm like how do you know
that this isn't their wall?
Speaker 3 (41:59):
But you could say that about anything.
How do you know?
Basically, you're saying yougot to try it before you buy it.
Oh my gosh, no way.
Marriage, okay, no, you go.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Yeah, yeah.
So you're saying you gotta tryit before you buy it?
Yeah, try it.
Oh my gosh, no way.
All right, let's listenmarriage.
Speaker 3 (42:11):
Okay, no, you go, yeah, yeah yeah, so you're
telling me why, guys?
I would love to hear becausechris, for example for example
how much dysfunction has comeout for chris since you've been
married.
Yeah, yeah, but that's what I'msaying, that's my point.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
Yeah, it's like no matter what, of course,
dysfunction is going to come outafter you get married, you got
to work through it and you'rereally selfish and marriage is
the thing that sanctifies it.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
But okay, but regardless, I don't care.
If you're really really good athaving all these holy
boundaries Fair enough, youprobably have a bigger problem.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Or or you really love Jesus, it could be, or or you
really love jesus, it could bedoubtful, but like it like.
So here's what I'm saying likein your brotherly and brotherly
affection, oh man, does thatmean you've never like hug
somebody without a sexualintention?
Okay, well, no, let me let mesay this yeah all right.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
One of the things that okay the fact that when we
read about greet each other witha holy kiss or David and
Jonathan kissed each other, weread that and that sounds so
crazy and goofy or gay or weird.
I actually am on board.
It's a revealer that oursociety today is so deprived of
healthy relational affection.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
I would actually 100% agree with you on this.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
Nice, look at that, okay.
Affection, I would actually100% agree with you on this.
Nice, look at that, okay.
And so when?
When you actually it's a way.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Part of the way forward is like re-normalizing
healthy friendship and affection.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
Yes, I would agree that, um, that you can actually,
you, I would say, in that kindof environment you actually can
get a sense of someone who islike relationally healthy,
emotionally healthy, I wouldagree, I would agree.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
And isn't it true that without us having sex,
without us having sex, we had anattraction that you could like
a chemistry, if you will?
Speaker 2 (43:56):
Okay, but you want to know, okay, fine.
But I actually like Holland'sargument way more, because
you're right that if somebodycouldn't give there is a
heightened level of friendship,affection, that I think is
healthy.
Okay, that I am just startingto kind of like understand, like
even among my girlfriends, likeI just was, like I don't want
(44:18):
you to touch me, like don't hugme.
And, like over the last fewyears, that's been changing.
Speaker 4 (44:24):
Right, you used to be a non-hugger it was a woman.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
It was with women really, but that's fine and so
I'm like, I'm just like, I justreally don't, but now I don't
feel that way anymore and I itactually like.
I it's whatever.
I don't need to talk aboutmyself.
My point is you could havesensed my issue there from what
you're describing.
You wouldn't have had to gointo a sexual realm to notice
(44:47):
that.
So I actually do actually agreeA person that has the
healthiness of a heightenedfriendship affection.
Speaker 3 (44:54):
You're saying heightened, heightened,
heightened.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
Yeah, heightened, that's a word Holland.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
I thought it was heightened, but you're saying it
like a T-H, sorry, keep going.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
Heightened.
It's not heightened.
Heightened, heightened.
I think it's heightened, it'sheightened, heightened oh, I
don't think there's a th grew upin perryton, thinks he knows
how to pronounce somethingcorrectly.
I've only heard heightened.
Let's look it up.
Oh not, you wasn't him soclearly, so heightened okay is,
(45:27):
can we just move on?
Speaker 1 (45:28):
yeah, so a heightened , uh, heightened, go ahead.
You know, can I just tell the001776 joke now?
No, that's a good time for thatno, sorry, a whole episode for
that, oh my gosh, all right, allright, sorry, you've discovered
this reality okay.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
So I actually think holland's accurate.
Oh, if a person has healthyrelational whatever's, it's
going to come out in friendship.
Here's the big, big giantcaveat.
In our culture today, though,it's not a part of normal
friendship things, and so Ithink that that's where I do
have a bit of an issue.
Is like, as a church community,if we could pivot and become
more affectionate with brotherlywhatever you just said
(46:08):
greetings affectionate withbrotherly whatever you just said
greetings then maybe it wouldbe helpful, because we could see
oh look, these people arehealthy and normal and they're
not afraid of communicatingphysical affection.
That is healthy and appropriate, but we don't have that.
So then how?
Speaker 1 (46:23):
are we supposed to figure that out?
It's possible to have that Likemy mom grew up, like that.
I mean I saw her kissingeverybody and that was just
normal.
But so this is yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (46:31):
So this is important because, back to the original
question, we were talking aboutboundaries, like I think there's
a way to go so far in like oh,I'm not even going to like speak
to women other than my wife, orI'm never going to like yes,
I'm never going to like putmyself, you know but, like you
know, a healthy community islike I have.
(46:53):
You know I don't have like deep,close female friendships where
we just like talk one on one.
But I have, you know, my wife,my wife's friends, that you know
she's close with our families,are close together and we were
friends, like I call them myfriends and like there's women
in our church where you knowit's normal you greet each other
(47:13):
with a hug and you, you knowyou rub someone's shoulder when
you're praying for them and likethose kind of normal, healthy
things where you're not puttingso much boundaries and space so
much sexual sexualization oneverything that I think it is
screwing it up.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
And I would argue that, like there are certain
things that yeah, okay, fine, Ican be convinced.
Fine, I guess I feel like, yeah, I mean, that's a good argument
, holland, way to have a goodargument.
Wonderful that's calledmarriage.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
It's a productive podcast.
That was pretty productive.
That was way to go, yeah.
So I do think that was prettyproductive.
That was way to go, yeah.
So I do think I think thatthat's the part of it.
Speaker 2 (47:54):
Like.
What if we create a churchculture where men and women like
had?
Speaker 1 (47:56):
some physical connection.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
It is heightened by the way I just Googled it.
Oh, that's good, you in two ToHolland.
Two Adrian, zero All right,what a day.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
What a day.
All right, imagine just for asecond if we had that and there
were people that normalized hugs, affection, all of that, and
then they grew up in that.
That that's just what you didand you didn't have this
unbelievable, yeah, sense oflike.
Don't even look at that girlever.
Right, like I think, yeah,that's weird, right, it's not
(48:23):
normal, right so so, but I thinkit.
That culture exists.
What we have right now is thehyper victorian culture and the
hyper sexual.
That culture exists.
What we have right now is thehyper-Victorian culture and the
hyper-sexualized culture.
Yeah absolutely, and what weneed is a Christian culture
which is like you are greetingone another, you're in
fellowship with one another,you're like a family.
You're like a family.
Speaker 4 (48:40):
Brother and sister.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
And how many times are we peeling our boys off each
other?
And when our boys hang out withother girls and they're in a
big dog pile and they'rewrestling and they're whatever,
like now?
Granted, as they grow older,that affection should shift from
wrestling to just, you know,being fun.
And you, of all people, hadthat in high school.
Yeah, absolutely like.
(49:01):
I think what's weird is you'rethe only person I know that had
actual, genuine, realfriendships in high school.
Yeah, and beyond.
That was actually somethingthat was very admirable and
there wasn't any weird sexualright things and you had a lot
of you're still friends to thisday yeah how many high school
girls am I still friends with?
Speaker 2 (49:20):
like zero you're right and it wasn't.
It was exactly what you'redescribing, right.
It was healthy and we did hugeach other and we did sometimes
wrestle, okay.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
So there, I guess that's my point, right, like
like you had genuine friendshipslike so why wouldn't?
Wouldn't it be wise then, tohave continue that and then
maybe even marry one, a personlike yes, yes sure okay, so,
especially if you're 16 and it'san arranged marriage, right,
yeah, 100, yeah, I would agree.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
and I guess maybe now that I'm like you've fleshed
out, like you've kind of, Ithink, what I'm starting to boil
it down to in terms of myhang-up is there maybe are two
subjects here, and one isphysical affection and the other
is the ability to slow down andprioritize relationship and be
(50:12):
intentional in relationship.
And I think you can, you canslow down, prioritize
relationship and be intentionalin relationship and do it all
extremely appropriately.
And I think for me maybe I'mrealizing I was looking for
those things in the physicalaffection- Right.
(50:32):
And I think which was actually amisread, because one could
argue that you struggled withslowing down and prioritizing
relationship, but because we hadphysical affection, it felt
like it covered that, and sothen, the first few years of our
marriage, we had to work on theladder.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
And I'm probably still working through my ability
to slow down and connect.
I mean, that's I'm wired tolike let's go.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
So you could argue that I translated something
wrongly.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
Right, you made a mistake in marrying me.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
Well, I'm just kidding, I'm kidding I mean, I
guess maybe that's what I'm kindof getting at and really that's
not something that neededphysical affection to discern.
So that's interesting and evenin that situation where you
weren't very good at that andyou could argue that was our
purity solution, busyness, whenin reality it wasn't.
(51:21):
It was a separate problem thatdid come out more in marriage
and it's something that God'sbeen faithful to healing, yeah,
redeeming, yeah.
So so that's good, that'sreally good Full circle.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
You know, what we do here at FasterPlex podcast is we
really take you to the fullgamut of emotions on issues
facing our culture today.
So, man, thank you guys so muchfor watching Any other final
thoughts from uh, the peanutgallery over here.
Speaker 5 (51:49):
We talked a lot about like starting, aiming for
perfection, but I just want toencourage people that if you've
already slipped up, it's not toolate.
Pablo and I can speak into that.
Like it was four years of freefor all and conviction came and
it was super hard, but movingout and like God rewards that
(52:11):
still and he sees, and I wouldencourage anyone at any stage
too.
Speaker 1 (52:15):
Yeah, I love what you just said.
I do feel like sometimesthere's this classic Matt
Chandler sermon where, uh, hetells a story about you know a
purity thing, and the guy, theevangelist, hands a rose to a
dude in the first row and he'stalking to all these singles.
They say, hey, pass this around, smell it.
And then the rose finally comesback to the front and he says
(52:37):
if you've given away your purity, this is what you are and it's
the rose that leaves the line.
Speaker 2 (52:41):
Oh, this is the worst .
Speaker 1 (52:44):
And then the whole time it's like the most
defeating thing.
Everyone there just feels shameand what Chandler is saying is
he's sitting there and he's like, but Jesus wants the rose, and
Jesus wants your brokenness, hewants your defeatedness, he
wants all that.
And then he makes it all new.
And I think the great partabout what for Adrian and me is
(53:04):
like even though we both hadissues from our own past and
stuff that God really hassanctified it and glorified
himself and we are at a place ofreal joy where we have
conversations like this a lotand it's really wonderful.
And I'm just noticing you guysin your marriage and the joy on
your face Brie is of a womanwho's well-loved as opposed to
(53:24):
like just being in the abyss, ofjust trying to control.
You know Pablo, so that youdon't feel bad all the time, and
that's a huge difference.
That gets to be excited.
And now I watch you championinghim as he makes his way into
ministry and it's wild to watchand it's exciting to watch.
And so you guys should justreally I mean obviously you're
in glorify God and that, butjust take joy in what Jesus is
(53:47):
doing in your own lives andcelebrate it.
That, but just take joy in whatJesus is doing in your own
lives and celebrate it, and thenI think that's what I think
ultimately, that's what's goingto make, um, the, what we're
talking about attractive topeople that are not buying in is
you're able to give a pictureof what a relationship the way
it was designed to be can looklike.
All right.
(54:09):
Hey guys, thanks so much forwatching.
We love questions, so text in737-231-0605 or go to
pastorplekcom.
We'd love to hear from you.
So, from our house to yours,have an awesome week.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.