October 16, 2025 • 28 mins
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A Supreme Court fight, a crisis of conscience, and a hard look at justice—this conversation moves fast and cuts deep. We open with Colorado’s ban on conversion therapy for minors and why the 10th Circuit’s framing of “harmful professional conduct” raises alarms for counselors who practice faith-informed talk therapy. Where does protected speech end and regulated treatment begin? We unpack why the distinction matters for pastors, parents, and practitioners who want to teach biblical sexual ethics without tripping legal wires.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
And welcome back to Pastor Plex Podcast.
I'm your host, Pastor Plex,along with none other than
Pastor Holland Gregg.
We are talking faith, culture,and everything in between.
Hot off the presses today isoral arguments being heard in
the Supreme Court over, I guessit's Kaylee Chiles.
And uh, she's a licensedprofessional counselor in
(00:27):
Colorado Springs, Colorado, isat the center of a high-profile
legal battle over the state'sban on conversion therapy.
In 2019, she um or 2019,Colorado enacted a law
prohibiting licensed mentalhealth providers from offering
conversion therapy.
Now, I guess that's a practiceaimed at changing a minor's
(00:48):
sexual orientation or genderidentity, which is to anyone
under 18.
And violators could face finesup to$5,000 or lose their
license.
So Child's described herapproach as faith-informed
counseling to help her clientsalign with their biological sex
or reduce unwanted attractions,meaning like attracted to the
(01:10):
same sex.
And so she sued in federal courtin 2019 to block enforcement of
the ban against her, claiming itviolates her First Amendment
rights.
So this guy, the 10th Circuit ofAppeals, uh, I guess it's the
10th Circuit, uh, you know, andthat's where they kind of go
around.
10th U.S.
Circuit of Appeals upheld theban, saying, like, yep, you can
ban that.
And it was viewing as aregulation of harmful
(01:34):
professional medical conduct,which is sort of wild, which is
wild, that you would then sortof regulate um thinking as
medical.
Yeah, that is interesting.
Uh, which to me, I mean, if youfollow that all the way through,
of which I actually sort ofappreciate there is some
religious overtones to that,that what you think about is a
(01:59):
violation.
If I tell you to think the wrongthings, to violate perhaps your
conscience of what you believe.
Because couldn't that go bothways?
Yeah.
Anyway, so it's it'sinteresting.
That's what uh the Supreme Courtis currently hearing arguments.
There is a 6'3 conservative toliberal advantage in the Supreme
Court.
So striking down this ban seemslike it will happen.
(02:22):
Wow.
Um, but talk to me, Holland,about like when I first brought
this up to you, you're like, I'mnot even sure if I'm okay with
conversion therapy.
And why was that?
SPEAKER_01 (02:31):
Well, I I think more of just like, what are they
calling?
What do they mean by that?
Because it sounds like whatshe's saying is I want to be
able, if if I'm counselingsomeone and they're saying I'm
attracted to the same sex, Iwant to be able to tell them
that's not right.
You should be, you know, you'reGod created male and female, and
(02:52):
this is what marriage is, thisis the proper context for sexual
desire and intimacy and all thatis within God's design for
marriage.
And she wants to be able to tellpeople that, which is the truth,
right?
But if they would consider thatconversion therapy, essentially
just teaching what the Biblesays about sex and yeah, desire
(03:13):
and all that, um, then yeah, sheshould not be prevented from
doing that.
She should be able to freely saythe truth.
SPEAKER_00 (03:22):
Right.
And I think there's allthroughout um history, I'm gonna
go like I I think from 1960sforward, we wanted to align our
reality to our fantasy.
So we we felt like we were beingmistreated, and so we wanted all
(03:44):
of the culture to then alignwith our mistreatment and then
sort of align itself to us, iskind of what the from the 1960s
forward.
So um let me try and explainthis.
So it let's just go with I thinkmy body should align to the
fantasy in my mind of I thinkI'm a woman or the opposite
(04:05):
gender.
And so my whole life is then nowI'm gonna spend the rest of my
life aligning my body to myfantasy.
Gotcha.
And I think before that, all oflife was about aligning our mind
to reality.
Yeah.
Like, like even going back tolike stoicism, it was like
(04:26):
beyond a Christian worldview, itwas life is hard, and you've got
to steal your mind to preparefor how hard it is.
Yeah.
And I think our culture hassaid, or you know, and I'm not
just saying American culture, Ithink this is like almost
worldwide at this point.
SPEAKER_01 (04:42):
Modern and postmodern culture.
SPEAKER_00 (04:44):
You mean right, right?
It's been like a I want to alignto the fantasy I deserve, and I
should have all of you know, I'mgonna live in my free speech
zone, or sorry, hate hate speechor whatever.
I can't hear anything that mighttrigger me.
And so I need to be away fromthe reality of your words
(05:06):
because they could hurt my soul,and so I need to be protected
from all of the world, which issort of aligning our feeling, or
rather, aligning the world toour feelings, and which is sort
of the opposite sort ofviewpoint of for from all
history past.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01 (05:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's it's a self-destructiveway of thinking, too, because
you know, you're you're notaligning to some objective
standard that is right, uh, youknow, that the way that God
created the world, you're tryingto align everyone else to
something that you made up inyour head, and uh that'll
destroy you and a society.
SPEAKER_00 (05:43):
So when we look at, and and this is where when you
look at all of just the mentalhealth issues that seem to have
like out of nowhere, and wecould probably blame phones and
we could blame shows and videogames, which I think there's
probably some good reason toblame that.
But I think ultimately it'sbecause we've sort of taught our
(06:04):
culture you can be anything youwant to be.
And if someone tells you no,they're wrong.
Yeah.
And I feel like it's we shouldbe sort of saying, no, no,
actually, there's reality thatyou have to conform your mind
to, which is obviously whatRomans 12 says.
Yeah.
Um be transformed by therenewing of your mind.
(06:29):
And I think that's the part thatin in our culture we have gotten
away from.
And I think this case, which I'mgrateful that I think they're
gonna strike down that ban andyou know, let freedom ring.
But I think that's just thepostmodern reality that we're
sort of dealing with across, andI think it can invade Christian
circles a little bit.
(06:49):
Um we just don't recognize it asthat sort of mentality of like,
I wanna, I want my world toconform to my fantasy.
I think maybe that's the name itand claim it type stuff that
we've sort of like the world,because I've made this deal with
God, he has to obey my my whimor my fantasy or whatever my
thing is.
If I have enough faith, then ithas to be willed into existence.
(07:11):
As opposed to I want to dowhatever God's will is, that's
the objective standard.
I want to align my life to that.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's good.
All right, that might be enoughon all that.
Uh any other thoughts in thatdepartment?
No, I'm and I I hadn't heard ofit until you just brought it up
just now.
So you know, like we listen,breaking news hits here first.
All right.
(07:31):
This is also a follow-up.
We we had a question a whileback about how does one foster a
spirit of gentleness on afoundation of strength versus
becoming gentle from a place ofweakness or fear of man, which
in my opinion, y'all may bothdisagree, but it's cowardice
masquerading as being gentle andkind.
Would appreciate y'all going totangible things a person can do
in order to grow uh thisfoundation versus the obvious
(07:53):
found it uh the to most found iton Christ and his strength.
Uh so we we did tackle thatquestion, but he did not like
our question, our response.
He goes, Here's a follow-up toyour answer on building
gentleness through strength.
I'm not thumbs down on foundedin Christ and his strength,
which is apparently how weanswer that.
(08:14):
But when those of the churchattempt to call out wickedness
with righteous anger, theyusually are shouted down from
many in the church to just prayfor the wicked, and it's never
acceptable to try and punishthose who do grave sin.
For example, this most recentweekend of the stabbing that
took place on a publictransportation by a man who has
14 different mugshots, stillbeing allowed out of jail.
(08:36):
At what point does the righteousact become a last presentation
of the gospel to him and a swiftexecution, preventing him, who,
according to Romans 13 or Romans1, has had his conscience seared
and given to complete evil, nolonger to kill another person?
Meaning this guy's been givenover to his sin, he can know
(08:57):
nothing other than death andkilling and murder.
Because they even suggest apunishment in modern times
receives major backlash fromwithin the church body as not
being kind or gentle enough andnot following the examples
Christ gave.
We'll be curious both of youropinions of whether it is right
and just to kill people likethis and what a Christian's role
is if those who have been giventhe sword by God, aka the
(09:18):
government, refuse to use it uhjustly.
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (09:24):
Um, what do you got to say to that, Holland?
Okay, so this is from a fewweeks back when um I think it
was that the girl who gotmurdered.
Yeah, Ukrainian um woman wasmurdered on the train or subway
or whatever.
And um he's saying is hisquestion is those who express
righteous anger about that getlike shushed by the church?
(09:47):
Is that what he's saying?
SPEAKER_00 (09:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:49):
Or maybe the or about wanting to do something
about it.
SPEAKER_00 (09:53):
Right, right.
Like let's the proper response.
What's should the church like, Iguess we could have like the
temple guard, and we just likewhen someone isn't justly
killed, we send out the templeguard, they you know,
assassinate the murderers thattake people out.
Yeah.
Um I don't think that's theright answer.
Like, I think up front, I wouldsay I appreciate your anger
(10:14):
because I think that's therighteous response.
Um, however, I do feel likebecause I think the person
describing um De Carlos Brown, a32-year-old with at least 14
prior arrests, and he's the guythat stabbed a 23-year-old.
And as he after he stabbed her,he goes, I just stabbed that
white girl.
He just kind of was walking awayfrom her, just kind of wow.
(10:35):
And then nobody, and everyone,he just walked through the
subway and everyone just likewatched him go, no one did
anything.
SPEAKER_01 (10:40):
Yeah.
So, okay, a couple of thingsthat come to mind for me.
Um, is Ecclesiastes 811.
Um, when the sentence for acrime is not quickly carried
out, people's hearts are filledwith schemes to do wrong.
Right.
So you have this principle, thisreality that if people see in
society you can get away withdoing something evil, then it
(11:03):
does draw out in people, um,okay, well, then, you know, why
I'm gonna do something evilthen, you know, uh people who
would be tempted to do it butwould stop out of fear of
justice don't have anythingstopping them anymore.
Right.
So then that that leads to, youknow, a society where innocent
people who want to do good arefearful for their lives because
(11:27):
they go, so no one's gonna stopsomeone from doing evil.
So one, I think it's important,he does bring up Romans 13, God
has entrusted the sword to thegovernment, uh, meaning that
they have the right to punishevil.
That's what they're commanded todo, Romans 13, including, you
know, an up to death penalty.
Right.
Um, and so the it sounds likehe's asking, well, what if the
(11:53):
government's not doing that?
Because I would say ourgovernment, our American
government is not doing thatright now in um a lot of cases
where you know someone gets offeasy, they do some heinous crime
um and you know, do do some jailtime and then they're back on
the streets.
And so his question is, well,then do we take things into our
our own hands, right?
That's the question.
(12:15):
So I I think Romans 12, youknow, Romans 12 comes right
before Romans 13.
Romans 12 says, Repay no oneevil for evil.
Um, it says, Beloved, neveravenge yourselves, but leave it
to the wrath of God.
For it is written, Vengeance ismine, I will repay, says the
Lord.
(12:36):
Um and then in uh chapter 13, afew verses later, that's where
it says, Um, uh, whoever resiststhe authorities resists what God
has appointed, and those whoresist will incur judgment.
Rulers are not a terror to goodconduct, but to bad.
Um, it says that he's God, thegovernment is God's servant.
(12:58):
Um, he does not bear the swordin vain.
He's the servant of God, anavenger who carries out God's
wrath on the wrongdoer.
So there's a connection.
Romans 12 is saying, don'tavenge yourselves, um, leave it
to the wrath of God.
And then you go, well, you know,who's gonna carry out justice
then?
And Romans 13 answers it.
Well, the government's supposedto.
Um that it literally says theycarry out God's wrath on the
(13:22):
wrongdoer.
And so I think when thegovernment's not doing that, it
doesn't mean we take it into ourown hands, but rather it means
we speak prophetically to theculture, to the government.
We call government to and in aplace like America where we can
actually vote for our representrepresentatives and we can
change the policies of the landthat we live in.
We need to actively work towardthat reform in the justice
(13:45):
system.
Yeah, and I think that's youspeak truth to power.
SPEAKER_00 (13:47):
Yeah.
So, you know, Amos five, uh letjustice roll uh like uh a river,
a mighty river.
Like I think that the the callto in like you know, Amos was
just a shepherd, he's callinghe's a prophet calling the
government to do the rightthing, to punish evil.
And I think what happens withus, I think, you know,
(14:10):
inevitably, evil is not alwaysprevented, evil is not always
justly punished.
Uh, and so you have an imperf onthis side of heaven, you have an
imperfect justice system.
And however, that doesn't meanyou throw out the whole system,
right?
That that doesn't mean likebecause this is like advocating,
like his question is like, atwhat point is vigilante justice
(14:32):
the right answer?
And I'm like, never.
I don't like as much as I loveBatman, like there's a reason
why the police in Gotham weretrying to arrest Batman just as
much as they were trying toarrest everybody else, because
if everybody's taking justice intheir own hands without proper
um, without a trial, without ajudge, without a jury, then all
of a sudden you're playing oneperson is playing judge, jury,
(14:53):
and executioner.
Yeah, and that leads to asociety that is chaotic and
anarchist.
And although you might begratified in the in the death of
the wicked, um how many times isthat gonna miss?
And how many times are you gonnaassume someone is I mean, shoot,
the government now um has in thepast, you know, roughly um 20
(15:20):
years convicted about you know200 people of capital crimes uh
that they didn't commit.
Now, there's that's 4%.
4%.
So even the government gets itwrong.
Even the government has allthese trained people that are
not trying to just, you know,that have objective objectivity,
(15:43):
even they get it wrong about 4%of the time.
So, how about how is you knowregular Joe living their life as
you know, working at Google?
They see some atrocity happen,they're like, I'm gonna go and
kill that guy, and they don'tknow the full story, they take
revenge, they kill that guy, andit was actually wasn't that guy,
it was somebody else.
And I get it.
We have video footage, we haveproof, yeah.
(16:03):
But let the justice system work,and then when it doesn't work, I
think what happened thoughwasn't um didn't North Carolina
pass like Irina's law orsomething uh to you know really
take out violent offenders fromthe public spaces.
Anyway, the laws are usuallypassed after really awful things
(16:25):
happen to prevent those thingsfrom happening again.
SPEAKER_01 (16:28):
Um but and bad laws existed that allowed it to
happen, I think is part of whathe was saying too, of like, you
know, you have you have um civilauthorities who are saying
things like, no, you know, wecan't do the death penalty
because, you know, um you don'tunderstand, you know, where they
(16:50):
came from and what theyexperienced.
And it's like, you know, it'sthe stuff that appeals to um
compassion, you know, of likethe the reason they're doing
these horrible things isbecause, you know, maybe they
they had a really horribleupbringing or something like
that.
And like there's a part of methat that really resonates with
me of wanting redemption forpeople, you know.
(17:14):
At the same time, if you don'tpunish the wicked, your society,
you know, so this guy he hadlike what 14, what did he say?
He 14 mugshots or something likethat.
SPEAKER_00 (17:25):
Yeah, that were all over the place.
Like this guy had um, where isthis question?
He had yeah, his mugshot was allover the place in 14 different
14 different mugshots stillbeing allowed out of jail,
meaning he was arrested 14different times.
SPEAKER_01 (17:40):
Yeah.
If if if the way you've set upyour justice system allows
someone to, you know, just keepdoing these horrible crimes over
and over, and they never um andyou know, all they get is like a
a measly punishment or whatever,then your justice system really
screws over the innocent people,it doesn't protect anyone.
(18:02):
And so you need laws that aregoing to and it's going to feel
harsh and not compassionate tosome, but that is really what
like a magistrate, a anauthority has to be to bear the
sword is is a harsh thing, butit's for the sake of protecting
the innocent.
Um yeah, so you need you needlaws and you need um justices
(18:25):
who are willing to enforcejustice.
And um yeah, I think thatdoesn't sit right with a lot of
Christians.
Um, but it is there's uh if youwould read like the again, I I
go back to these a lot, but likeWestminster Confession of uh uh
shorter catechism, longercatechism that talk about the
(18:47):
roles and duties of civilmagistrates, it's gonna say they
have a duty to punish evil withthe sword, otherwise, um your
society will fall apart, peoplewon't feel safe, the innocent
will suffer, um, and the wickedwill prosper.
So you've got to have a stategovernment ready and willing to
actually enforce justice andpunish evil.
SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
Yeah, I I think that's I think that's what we're
saying.
And then if you don't, you speaktruth to power, yeah, just like
all the prophets of old did.
And and what happened to some ofthose prophets?
Some were beaten, some werekilled.
Yeah.
Uh poor Jeremiah was the weepingprophet because he, you know,
he's the one that's saying,like, hey guys, you guys are
missing it.
Babylon's taking over.
Shut up.
I want you to prophesy somethinggood.
(19:29):
Uh and and you know, he getsbeaten down for it.
Um, and so there is a risk atspeaking truth to power, but I
don't think the answer is goingon a vigilante like justice.
SPEAKER_01 (19:42):
No, but especially because we have avenues.
We we don't just have like amonarch where you need a prophet
to speak truth to power, andthat's your only option.
Is you we actually have avenuesto change laws that are within
our power as citizens.
We can vote for stuff, we canelect representatives who have a
right view of justice.
So, like we have the ability toactually change things more than
(20:06):
just speak, like we have thepower, honestly.
Like, we are we have the powerum to elect the people and vote
for the policies that can changethings, right?
SPEAKER_00 (20:15):
Okay, all right.
That I think we settled that.
Like, so the answer just ifyou're listening, you know,
vigilante justice, we're thumbsdown on it, although it makes
for cool movies.
Um but we are for vote and prayand speak truth to power.
Amen.
Okay, all right.
Here's the next one.
So this is on the book of Enoch.
Okay.
Are you ready?
When was the last time you readthe book of Enoch?
SPEAKER_01 (20:36):
Uh in seminary.
SPEAKER_00 (20:37):
Yeah.
A long time ago.
Long time ago.
I've noticed the book of Enochis a cultural hop topic once
again.
Um, I'm actually part of aFacebook group called the Book
of Enoch.
And I love to see the questionsthat rage in there.
Man.
And it goes, I didn't get in onthis.
Is this something that hasbenefit for Christians to read
as a non-authoritative text?
(20:58):
Which I really appreciate.
Uh, this person asks to read asa non-authoritative text.
We all understand that this isnot a book within the canon.
However, it's referenced acouple times um in the New
Testament.
Enoch uh is referenced in Jude1, 14 and 15, uh, which quotes a
prophecy from Enoch about divinejudgment.
(21:20):
Uh, then there is um, I think 2Peter 2, uh, where fallen angels
in chains, and then maybeRevelation 20, 13, there's like
an abyss imagery that sharesapocalyptic language uh from the
book of Enoch as well.
All right, so what do you thinkabout this?
(21:41):
Especially also, this gets intoone of my favorite topics.
Nephilim?
SPEAKER_01 (21:47):
Yeah, you know what?
We should have brought this upback on the Michael Heiser
episode.
SPEAKER_00 (21:52):
Did you know that's one of the most popular podcasts
that Pastor Plex podcast hasever produced?
SPEAKER_01 (21:56):
Man, I feel like we need to follow.
I I don't know if we quite didit justice when we we need to be
a good one.
It was almost a two-hourpodcast.
That was a long one.
It was.
But that's really interesting.
So I'm not in any Book of EnochFacebook groups.
So I'll let you kind of take thelead on this one.
SPEAKER_00 (22:11):
Listen, I love it because it does get into the
Nephilim, it gets into thewatchers who are like the
rebellious angels and theirconsequences.
Uh, it gets into um NewTestament teachings on demons,
exorcisms, yeah, it uh aboutlike spiritual warfare against
unseen powers.
Uh so for Christians, this canfoster a richer appreciation of
(22:35):
biblical warnings about evilforces, encouraging prayer and
reliance on Christ whilehighlighting God's ultimate
sovereignty over the spiritualrealm.
It's I guess part of it, I don'twant to say any of it's
fictionalized, but it's just notauthoritative.
It's not canon.
So not every word is absolutetruth with God.
So I just would say be careful.
(22:57):
Um, but I think it's really Iwant Christians to read it.
Yeah, but I do I think it'd begreat to read.
I mean, we were at the seminary.
So, what what is the value thatyou think it has?
I don't know.
It gives me a greater view ofthe more accepted worldview of
the demonic and spiritual forcesthat are at battle.
That I feel like in our modern,postmodern culture, we've become
(23:20):
materialists.
We've kind of said the onlything that exists is that which
you can see.
And so, therefore, all theseinvisible powers and whatnots,
um, those are just sciencefiction, and we need to kind of
get more into reality.
And I think that's where I feellike even just for the
experiences I've had, I know nowI'm about to go into some odd
(23:41):
stuff, but like seeing thesupernatural from a demonic, you
know, experience of praying, andthis is where you get into
praying hedges of protect.
Why are we praying about hedges?
We should pray like steel cages,but you know what I mean.
You're praying protection overpeople.
You're you're praying that thekingdom of God would would
advance.
You're you're praying a violentbattle in the spiritual realm.
(24:04):
And when we anoint people withoil, we're praying for God to
heal.
Like we had recently we had awoman that was that was um, I
know this is gonna sound crazy,but just hang with me.
We had a woman who came up andsaid she was cursed by her mom,
who was a witch, and she kepthaving these demonic dreams, and
she asked um the elders to prayover her, and so the elders
(24:24):
came.
We anointed with her with oil,we prayed for those dreams to go
away, and the next night, nomore dreams.
Now, listen, you could say thatjust was all psychosomatic.
You could say like a whole bunchof um non-spiritual answers as
to why the dream stopped.
But it could be that God actedon our behalf, that there was
(24:46):
some sort of spiritual battle,that there was some sort of
thing going on.
And this is the part that Ican't fully explain, but you
know, she was definitely alreadysaved.
She came to us asking for theprotection of the church and the
and the and the elders' prayer.
We asked her to confess any sinsthat she had.
She confessed some bitternessand anger, and she laid that the
cross, and we prayed uh thepower of Christ's blood over
(25:08):
her.
We power, uh we, you know,anointed her with oil and just
asked God to protect and healand forgive her and then cleanse
her from all darkness.
And I think God did that.
Yeah.
Anyway, I think that's the partthat can be hard, is like how
and this is just as a even as apastor, I'm battling things I
can't see.
(25:29):
I'm I I with prayer that I'musing that sometimes feels like
am I speaking into the air, I'mnot seeing it like destroy the
enemy, but I'm seeing it um I'mseeing the the the results, even
though I don't see how ithappened exactly.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:44):
Anyway.
So final um give it a read.
Yeah, that's that's where youland is your assessment, final
assessment is give it a read.
SPEAKER_00 (25:53):
It could draw readers closer to the can
canonical Bible uh byilluminating its steps.
How about that?
SPEAKER_01 (26:00):
Nice, yeah.
I'm when when I read it inseminary, I was like, this is
cool.
And I don't think I've everreally looked back at it again,
but now I'm like, yeah, kind ofwant to pick it up again.
SPEAKER_00 (26:09):
Like the okay, the the best and now now this is the
part where be very careful whenyou go to the Facebook group,
people make all sorts ofassertions there.
Yeah.
Uh but it's fun, right?
I'm like, wow, there are somepeople that have really gotten
into the book of Enoch.
SPEAKER_01 (26:20):
Is it is it mainly about Nephilim and giant stuff?
Yeah, absolutely.
There's some there has been arenewed interest in that.
SPEAKER_00 (26:27):
Like well, and I think people have just seen too
much, and they're looking foranswers to the evil they've seen
so clearly.
And when you get kind of told bya materialistic world there's
nothing to see here, and you'relike, clearly there is.
And so um, I think that's whythere's probably been a huge
advancement of charismaticmovements because they're sort
of engaging more in that realm.
(26:48):
Um, not to say that that's theanswer, but to say that is an
answer.
And I think that even as likeBible church type Christians,
yeah, we need to be sort of likelooking into the spiritual
realm, understand that we're notjust material beings, you know,
like you know, sacks of fluidand bone, you know, we are
spiritual beings that inhabit uhthese bodies that are going to
(27:13):
be eternal ultimately, and weneed to start engaging the
spiritual as much as we engagethe physical.
Wow.
All right, good deal.
Hey, if you got any questionsabout faith, culture, or
everything or anything,everything in between.
We talk about it all.
Uh you can text us at737-231-0605.
(27:35):
We'd love to hear from you or goto pastorpleck.com.
We would love to hear your heartand thoughts.
So from our house, yours, havean awesome week of worship.
And welcome back to Pastor Plex Podcast.
I'm your host, Pastor Plex,along with none other than
Pastor Holland Gregg.
We are talking faith, culture,and everything in between.
Hot off the presses today isoral arguments being heard in
the Supreme Court over, I guessit's Kaylee Chiles.
And uh, she's a licensedprofessional counselor in
(00:27):
Colorado Springs, Colorado, isat the center of a high-profile
legal battle over the state'sban on conversion therapy.
In 2019, she um or 2019,Colorado enacted a law
prohibiting licensed mentalhealth providers from offering
conversion therapy.
Now, I guess that's a practiceaimed at changing a minor's
(00:48):
sexual orientation or genderidentity, which is to anyone
under 18.
And violators could face finesup to$5,000 or lose their
license.
So Child's described herapproach as faith-informed
counseling to help her clientsalign with their biological sex
or reduce unwanted attractions,meaning like attracted to the
(01:10):
same sex.
And so she sued in federal courtin 2019 to block enforcement of
the ban against her, claiming itviolates her First Amendment
rights.
So this guy, the 10th Circuit ofAppeals, uh, I guess it's the
10th Circuit, uh, you know, andthat's where they kind of go
around.
10th U.S.
Circuit of Appeals upheld theban, saying, like, yep, you can
ban that.
And it was viewing as aregulation of harmful
(01:34):
professional medical conduct,which is sort of wild, which is
wild, that you would then sortof regulate um thinking as
medical.
Yeah, that is interesting.
Uh, which to me, I mean, if youfollow that all the way through,
of which I actually sort ofappreciate there is some
religious overtones to that,that what you think about is a
(01:59):
violation.
If I tell you to think the wrongthings, to violate perhaps your
conscience of what you believe.
Because couldn't that go bothways?
Yeah.
Anyway, so it's it'sinteresting.
That's what uh the Supreme Courtis currently hearing arguments.
There is a 6'3 conservative toliberal advantage in the Supreme
Court.
So striking down this ban seemslike it will happen.
(02:22):
Wow.
Um, but talk to me, Holland,about like when I first brought
this up to you, you're like, I'mnot even sure if I'm okay with
conversion therapy.
And why was that?
SPEAKER_01 (02:31):
Well, I I think more of just like, what are they
calling?
What do they mean by that?
Because it sounds like whatshe's saying is I want to be
able, if if I'm counselingsomeone and they're saying I'm
attracted to the same sex, Iwant to be able to tell them
that's not right.
You should be, you know, you'reGod created male and female, and
(02:52):
this is what marriage is, thisis the proper context for sexual
desire and intimacy and all thatis within God's design for
marriage.
And she wants to be able to tellpeople that, which is the truth,
right?
But if they would consider thatconversion therapy, essentially
just teaching what the Biblesays about sex and yeah, desire
(03:13):
and all that, um, then yeah, sheshould not be prevented from
doing that.
She should be able to freely saythe truth.
SPEAKER_00 (03:22):
Right.
And I think there's allthroughout um history, I'm gonna
go like I I think from 1960sforward, we wanted to align our
reality to our fantasy.
So we we felt like we were beingmistreated, and so we wanted all
(03:44):
of the culture to then alignwith our mistreatment and then
sort of align itself to us, iskind of what the from the 1960s
forward.
So um let me try and explainthis.
So it let's just go with I thinkmy body should align to the
fantasy in my mind of I thinkI'm a woman or the opposite
(04:05):
gender.
And so my whole life is then nowI'm gonna spend the rest of my
life aligning my body to myfantasy.
Gotcha.
And I think before that, all oflife was about aligning our mind
to reality.
Yeah.
Like, like even going back tolike stoicism, it was like
(04:26):
beyond a Christian worldview, itwas life is hard, and you've got
to steal your mind to preparefor how hard it is.
Yeah.
And I think our culture hassaid, or you know, and I'm not
just saying American culture, Ithink this is like almost
worldwide at this point.
SPEAKER_01 (04:42):
Modern and postmodern culture.
SPEAKER_00 (04:44):
You mean right, right?
It's been like a I want to alignto the fantasy I deserve, and I
should have all of you know, I'mgonna live in my free speech
zone, or sorry, hate hate speechor whatever.
I can't hear anything that mighttrigger me.
And so I need to be away fromthe reality of your words
(05:06):
because they could hurt my soul,and so I need to be protected
from all of the world, which issort of aligning our feeling, or
rather, aligning the world toour feelings, and which is sort
of the opposite sort ofviewpoint of for from all
history past.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01 (05:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's it's a self-destructiveway of thinking, too, because
you know, you're you're notaligning to some objective
standard that is right, uh, youknow, that the way that God
created the world, you're tryingto align everyone else to
something that you made up inyour head, and uh that'll
destroy you and a society.
SPEAKER_00 (05:43):
So when we look at, and and this is where when you
look at all of just the mentalhealth issues that seem to have
like out of nowhere, and wecould probably blame phones and
we could blame shows and videogames, which I think there's
probably some good reason toblame that.
But I think ultimately it'sbecause we've sort of taught our
(06:04):
culture you can be anything youwant to be.
And if someone tells you no,they're wrong.
Yeah.
And I feel like it's we shouldbe sort of saying, no, no,
actually, there's reality thatyou have to conform your mind
to, which is obviously whatRomans 12 says.
Yeah.
Um be transformed by therenewing of your mind.
(06:29):
And I think that's the part thatin in our culture we have gotten
away from.
And I think this case, which I'mgrateful that I think they're
gonna strike down that ban andyou know, let freedom ring.
But I think that's just thepostmodern reality that we're
sort of dealing with across, andI think it can invade Christian
circles a little bit.
(06:49):
Um we just don't recognize it asthat sort of mentality of like,
I wanna, I want my world toconform to my fantasy.
I think maybe that's the name itand claim it type stuff that
we've sort of like the world,because I've made this deal with
God, he has to obey my my whimor my fantasy or whatever my
thing is.
If I have enough faith, then ithas to be willed into existence.
(07:11):
As opposed to I want to dowhatever God's will is, that's
the objective standard.
I want to align my life to that.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's good.
All right, that might be enoughon all that.
Uh any other thoughts in thatdepartment?
No, I'm and I I hadn't heard ofit until you just brought it up
just now.
So you know, like we listen,breaking news hits here first.
All right.
(07:31):
This is also a follow-up.
We we had a question a whileback about how does one foster a
spirit of gentleness on afoundation of strength versus
becoming gentle from a place ofweakness or fear of man, which
in my opinion, y'all may bothdisagree, but it's cowardice
masquerading as being gentle andkind.
Would appreciate y'all going totangible things a person can do
in order to grow uh thisfoundation versus the obvious
(07:53):
found it uh the to most found iton Christ and his strength.
Uh so we we did tackle thatquestion, but he did not like
our question, our response.
He goes, Here's a follow-up toyour answer on building
gentleness through strength.
I'm not thumbs down on foundedin Christ and his strength,
which is apparently how weanswer that.
(08:14):
But when those of the churchattempt to call out wickedness
with righteous anger, theyusually are shouted down from
many in the church to just prayfor the wicked, and it's never
acceptable to try and punishthose who do grave sin.
For example, this most recentweekend of the stabbing that
took place on a publictransportation by a man who has
14 different mugshots, stillbeing allowed out of jail.
(08:36):
At what point does the righteousact become a last presentation
of the gospel to him and a swiftexecution, preventing him, who,
according to Romans 13 or Romans1, has had his conscience seared
and given to complete evil, nolonger to kill another person?
Meaning this guy's been givenover to his sin, he can know
(08:57):
nothing other than death andkilling and murder.
Because they even suggest apunishment in modern times
receives major backlash fromwithin the church body as not
being kind or gentle enough andnot following the examples
Christ gave.
We'll be curious both of youropinions of whether it is right
and just to kill people likethis and what a Christian's role
is if those who have been giventhe sword by God, aka the
(09:18):
government, refuse to use it uhjustly.
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (09:24):
Um, what do you got to say to that, Holland?
Okay, so this is from a fewweeks back when um I think it
was that the girl who gotmurdered.
Yeah, Ukrainian um woman wasmurdered on the train or subway
or whatever.
And um he's saying is hisquestion is those who express
righteous anger about that getlike shushed by the church?
(09:47):
Is that what he's saying?
SPEAKER_00 (09:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:49):
Or maybe the or about wanting to do something
about it.
SPEAKER_00 (09:53):
Right, right.
Like let's the proper response.
What's should the church like, Iguess we could have like the
temple guard, and we just likewhen someone isn't justly
killed, we send out the templeguard, they you know,
assassinate the murderers thattake people out.
Yeah.
Um I don't think that's theright answer.
Like, I think up front, I wouldsay I appreciate your anger
(10:14):
because I think that's therighteous response.
Um, however, I do feel likebecause I think the person
describing um De Carlos Brown, a32-year-old with at least 14
prior arrests, and he's the guythat stabbed a 23-year-old.
And as he after he stabbed her,he goes, I just stabbed that
white girl.
He just kind of was walking awayfrom her, just kind of wow.
(10:35):
And then nobody, and everyone,he just walked through the
subway and everyone just likewatched him go, no one did
anything.
SPEAKER_01 (10:40):
Yeah.
So, okay, a couple of thingsthat come to mind for me.
Um, is Ecclesiastes 811.
Um, when the sentence for acrime is not quickly carried
out, people's hearts are filledwith schemes to do wrong.
Right.
So you have this principle, thisreality that if people see in
society you can get away withdoing something evil, then it
(11:03):
does draw out in people, um,okay, well, then, you know, why
I'm gonna do something evilthen, you know, uh people who
would be tempted to do it butwould stop out of fear of
justice don't have anythingstopping them anymore.
Right.
So then that that leads to, youknow, a society where innocent
people who want to do good arefearful for their lives because
(11:27):
they go, so no one's gonna stopsomeone from doing evil.
So one, I think it's important,he does bring up Romans 13, God
has entrusted the sword to thegovernment, uh, meaning that
they have the right to punishevil.
That's what they're commanded todo, Romans 13, including, you
know, an up to death penalty.
Right.
Um, and so the it sounds likehe's asking, well, what if the
(11:53):
government's not doing that?
Because I would say ourgovernment, our American
government is not doing thatright now in um a lot of cases
where you know someone gets offeasy, they do some heinous crime
um and you know, do do some jailtime and then they're back on
the streets.
And so his question is, well,then do we take things into our
our own hands, right?
That's the question.
(12:15):
So I I think Romans 12, youknow, Romans 12 comes right
before Romans 13.
Romans 12 says, Repay no oneevil for evil.
Um, it says, Beloved, neveravenge yourselves, but leave it
to the wrath of God.
For it is written, Vengeance ismine, I will repay, says the
Lord.
(12:36):
Um and then in uh chapter 13, afew verses later, that's where
it says, Um, uh, whoever resiststhe authorities resists what God
has appointed, and those whoresist will incur judgment.
Rulers are not a terror to goodconduct, but to bad.
Um, it says that he's God, thegovernment is God's servant.
(12:58):
Um, he does not bear the swordin vain.
He's the servant of God, anavenger who carries out God's
wrath on the wrongdoer.
So there's a connection.
Romans 12 is saying, don'tavenge yourselves, um, leave it
to the wrath of God.
And then you go, well, you know,who's gonna carry out justice
then?
And Romans 13 answers it.
Well, the government's supposedto.
Um that it literally says theycarry out God's wrath on the
(13:22):
wrongdoer.
And so I think when thegovernment's not doing that, it
doesn't mean we take it into ourown hands, but rather it means
we speak prophetically to theculture, to the government.
We call government to and in aplace like America where we can
actually vote for our representrepresentatives and we can
change the policies of the landthat we live in.
We need to actively work towardthat reform in the justice
(13:45):
system.
Yeah, and I think that's youspeak truth to power.
SPEAKER_00 (13:47):
Yeah.
So, you know, Amos five, uh letjustice roll uh like uh a river,
a mighty river.
Like I think that the the callto in like you know, Amos was
just a shepherd, he's callinghe's a prophet calling the
government to do the rightthing, to punish evil.
And I think what happens withus, I think, you know,
(14:10):
inevitably, evil is not alwaysprevented, evil is not always
justly punished.
Uh, and so you have an imperf onthis side of heaven, you have an
imperfect justice system.
And however, that doesn't meanyou throw out the whole system,
right?
That that doesn't mean likebecause this is like advocating,
like his question is like, atwhat point is vigilante justice
(14:32):
the right answer?
And I'm like, never.
I don't like as much as I loveBatman, like there's a reason
why the police in Gotham weretrying to arrest Batman just as
much as they were trying toarrest everybody else, because
if everybody's taking justice intheir own hands without proper
um, without a trial, without ajudge, without a jury, then all
of a sudden you're playing oneperson is playing judge, jury,
(14:53):
and executioner.
Yeah, and that leads to asociety that is chaotic and
anarchist.
And although you might begratified in the in the death of
the wicked, um how many times isthat gonna miss?
And how many times are you gonnaassume someone is I mean, shoot,
the government now um has in thepast, you know, roughly um 20
(15:20):
years convicted about you know200 people of capital crimes uh
that they didn't commit.
Now, there's that's 4%.
4%.
So even the government gets itwrong.
Even the government has allthese trained people that are
not trying to just, you know,that have objective objectivity,
(15:43):
even they get it wrong about 4%of the time.
So, how about how is you knowregular Joe living their life as
you know, working at Google?
They see some atrocity happen,they're like, I'm gonna go and
kill that guy, and they don'tknow the full story, they take
revenge, they kill that guy, andit was actually wasn't that guy,
it was somebody else.
And I get it.
We have video footage, we haveproof, yeah.
(16:03):
But let the justice system work,and then when it doesn't work, I
think what happened thoughwasn't um didn't North Carolina
pass like Irina's law orsomething uh to you know really
take out violent offenders fromthe public spaces.
Anyway, the laws are usuallypassed after really awful things
(16:25):
happen to prevent those thingsfrom happening again.
SPEAKER_01 (16:28):
Um but and bad laws existed that allowed it to
happen, I think is part of whathe was saying too, of like, you
know, you have you have um civilauthorities who are saying
things like, no, you know, wecan't do the death penalty
because, you know, um you don'tunderstand, you know, where they
(16:50):
came from and what theyexperienced.
And it's like, you know, it'sthe stuff that appeals to um
compassion, you know, of likethe the reason they're doing
these horrible things isbecause, you know, maybe they
they had a really horribleupbringing or something like
that.
And like there's a part of methat that really resonates with
me of wanting redemption forpeople, you know.
(17:14):
At the same time, if you don'tpunish the wicked, your society,
you know, so this guy he hadlike what 14, what did he say?
He 14 mugshots or something likethat.
SPEAKER_00 (17:25):
Yeah, that were all over the place.
Like this guy had um, where isthis question?
He had yeah, his mugshot was allover the place in 14 different
14 different mugshots stillbeing allowed out of jail,
meaning he was arrested 14different times.
SPEAKER_01 (17:40):
Yeah.
If if if the way you've set upyour justice system allows
someone to, you know, just keepdoing these horrible crimes over
and over, and they never um andyou know, all they get is like a
a measly punishment or whatever,then your justice system really
screws over the innocent people,it doesn't protect anyone.
(18:02):
And so you need laws that aregoing to and it's going to feel
harsh and not compassionate tosome, but that is really what
like a magistrate, a anauthority has to be to bear the
sword is is a harsh thing, butit's for the sake of protecting
the innocent.
Um yeah, so you need you needlaws and you need um justices
(18:25):
who are willing to enforcejustice.
And um yeah, I think thatdoesn't sit right with a lot of
Christians.
Um, but it is there's uh if youwould read like the again, I I
go back to these a lot, but likeWestminster Confession of uh uh
shorter catechism, longercatechism that talk about the
(18:47):
roles and duties of civilmagistrates, it's gonna say they
have a duty to punish evil withthe sword, otherwise, um your
society will fall apart, peoplewon't feel safe, the innocent
will suffer, um, and the wickedwill prosper.
So you've got to have a stategovernment ready and willing to
actually enforce justice andpunish evil.
SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
Yeah, I I think that's I think that's what we're
saying.
And then if you don't, you speaktruth to power, yeah, just like
all the prophets of old did.
And and what happened to some ofthose prophets?
Some were beaten, some werekilled.
Yeah.
Uh poor Jeremiah was the weepingprophet because he, you know,
he's the one that's saying,like, hey guys, you guys are
missing it.
Babylon's taking over.
Shut up.
I want you to prophesy somethinggood.
(19:29):
Uh and and you know, he getsbeaten down for it.
Um, and so there is a risk atspeaking truth to power, but I
don't think the answer is goingon a vigilante like justice.
SPEAKER_01 (19:42):
No, but especially because we have avenues.
We we don't just have like amonarch where you need a prophet
to speak truth to power, andthat's your only option.
Is you we actually have avenuesto change laws that are within
our power as citizens.
We can vote for stuff, we canelect representatives who have a
right view of justice.
So, like we have the ability toactually change things more than
(20:06):
just speak, like we have thepower, honestly.
Like, we are we have the powerum to elect the people and vote
for the policies that can changethings, right?
SPEAKER_00 (20:15):
Okay, all right.
That I think we settled that.
Like, so the answer just ifyou're listening, you know,
vigilante justice, we're thumbsdown on it, although it makes
for cool movies.
Um but we are for vote and prayand speak truth to power.
Amen.
Okay, all right.
Here's the next one.
So this is on the book of Enoch.
Okay.
Are you ready?
When was the last time you readthe book of Enoch?
SPEAKER_01 (20:36):
Uh in seminary.
SPEAKER_00 (20:37):
Yeah.
A long time ago.
Long time ago.
I've noticed the book of Enochis a cultural hop topic once
again.
Um, I'm actually part of aFacebook group called the Book
of Enoch.
And I love to see the questionsthat rage in there.
Man.
And it goes, I didn't get in onthis.
Is this something that hasbenefit for Christians to read
as a non-authoritative text?
(20:58):
Which I really appreciate.
Uh, this person asks to read asa non-authoritative text.
We all understand that this isnot a book within the canon.
However, it's referenced acouple times um in the New
Testament.
Enoch uh is referenced in Jude1, 14 and 15, uh, which quotes a
prophecy from Enoch about divinejudgment.
(21:20):
Uh, then there is um, I think 2Peter 2, uh, where fallen angels
in chains, and then maybeRevelation 20, 13, there's like
an abyss imagery that sharesapocalyptic language uh from the
book of Enoch as well.
All right, so what do you thinkabout this?
(21:41):
Especially also, this gets intoone of my favorite topics.
Nephilim?
SPEAKER_01 (21:47):
Yeah, you know what?
We should have brought this upback on the Michael Heiser
episode.
SPEAKER_00 (21:52):
Did you know that's one of the most popular podcasts
that Pastor Plex podcast hasever produced?
SPEAKER_01 (21:56):
Man, I feel like we need to follow.
I I don't know if we quite didit justice when we we need to be
a good one.
It was almost a two-hourpodcast.
That was a long one.
It was.
But that's really interesting.
So I'm not in any Book of EnochFacebook groups.
So I'll let you kind of take thelead on this one.
SPEAKER_00 (22:11):
Listen, I love it because it does get into the
Nephilim, it gets into thewatchers who are like the
rebellious angels and theirconsequences.
Uh, it gets into um NewTestament teachings on demons,
exorcisms, yeah, it uh aboutlike spiritual warfare against
unseen powers.
Uh so for Christians, this canfoster a richer appreciation of
(22:35):
biblical warnings about evilforces, encouraging prayer and
reliance on Christ whilehighlighting God's ultimate
sovereignty over the spiritualrealm.
It's I guess part of it, I don'twant to say any of it's
fictionalized, but it's just notauthoritative.
It's not canon.
So not every word is absolutetruth with God.
So I just would say be careful.
(22:57):
Um, but I think it's really Iwant Christians to read it.
Yeah, but I do I think it'd begreat to read.
I mean, we were at the seminary.
So, what what is the value thatyou think it has?
I don't know.
It gives me a greater view ofthe more accepted worldview of
the demonic and spiritual forcesthat are at battle.
That I feel like in our modern,postmodern culture, we've become
(23:20):
materialists.
We've kind of said the onlything that exists is that which
you can see.
And so, therefore, all theseinvisible powers and whatnots,
um, those are just sciencefiction, and we need to kind of
get more into reality.
And I think that's where I feellike even just for the
experiences I've had, I know nowI'm about to go into some odd
(23:41):
stuff, but like seeing thesupernatural from a demonic, you
know, experience of praying, andthis is where you get into
praying hedges of protect.
Why are we praying about hedges?
We should pray like steel cages,but you know what I mean.
You're praying protection overpeople.
You're you're praying that thekingdom of God would would
advance.
You're you're praying a violentbattle in the spiritual realm.
(24:04):
And when we anoint people withoil, we're praying for God to
heal.
Like we had recently we had awoman that was that was um, I
know this is gonna sound crazy,but just hang with me.
We had a woman who came up andsaid she was cursed by her mom,
who was a witch, and she kepthaving these demonic dreams, and
she asked um the elders to prayover her, and so the elders
(24:24):
came.
We anointed with her with oil,we prayed for those dreams to go
away, and the next night, nomore dreams.
Now, listen, you could say thatjust was all psychosomatic.
You could say like a whole bunchof um non-spiritual answers as
to why the dream stopped.
But it could be that God actedon our behalf, that there was
(24:46):
some sort of spiritual battle,that there was some sort of
thing going on.
And this is the part that Ican't fully explain, but you
know, she was definitely alreadysaved.
She came to us asking for theprotection of the church and the
and the and the elders' prayer.
We asked her to confess any sinsthat she had.
She confessed some bitternessand anger, and she laid that the
cross, and we prayed uh thepower of Christ's blood over
(25:08):
her.
We power, uh we, you know,anointed her with oil and just
asked God to protect and healand forgive her and then cleanse
her from all darkness.
And I think God did that.
Yeah.
Anyway, I think that's the partthat can be hard, is like how
and this is just as a even as apastor, I'm battling things I
can't see.
(25:29):
I'm I I with prayer that I'musing that sometimes feels like
am I speaking into the air, I'mnot seeing it like destroy the
enemy, but I'm seeing it um I'mseeing the the the results, even
though I don't see how ithappened exactly.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:44):
Anyway.
So final um give it a read.
Yeah, that's that's where youland is your assessment, final
assessment is give it a read.
SPEAKER_00 (25:53):
It could draw readers closer to the can
canonical Bible uh byilluminating its steps.
How about that?
SPEAKER_01 (26:00):
Nice, yeah.
I'm when when I read it inseminary, I was like, this is
cool.
And I don't think I've everreally looked back at it again,
but now I'm like, yeah, kind ofwant to pick it up again.
SPEAKER_00 (26:09):
Like the okay, the the best and now now this is the
part where be very careful whenyou go to the Facebook group,
people make all sorts ofassertions there.
Yeah.
Uh but it's fun, right?
I'm like, wow, there are somepeople that have really gotten
into the book of Enoch.
SPEAKER_01 (26:20):
Is it is it mainly about Nephilim and giant stuff?
Yeah, absolutely.
There's some there has been arenewed interest in that.
SPEAKER_00 (26:27):
Like well, and I think people have just seen too
much, and they're looking foranswers to the evil they've seen
so clearly.
And when you get kind of told bya materialistic world there's
nothing to see here, and you'relike, clearly there is.
And so um, I think that's whythere's probably been a huge
advancement of charismaticmovements because they're sort
of engaging more in that realm.
(26:48):
Um, not to say that that's theanswer, but to say that is an
answer.
And I think that even as likeBible church type Christians,
yeah, we need to be sort of likelooking into the spiritual
realm, understand that we're notjust material beings, you know,
like you know, sacks of fluidand bone, you know, we are
spiritual beings that inhabit uhthese bodies that are going to
(27:13):
be eternal ultimately, and weneed to start engaging the
spiritual as much as we engagethe physical.
Wow.
All right, good deal.
Hey, if you got any questionsabout faith, culture, or
everything or anything,everything in between.
We talk about it all.
Uh you can text us at737-231-0605.
(27:35):
We'd love to hear from you or goto pastorpleck.com.
We would love to hear your heartand thoughts.
So from our house, yours, havean awesome week of worship.
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