March 5, 2025 • 34 mins
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344: Why didn't God create all humans with the same sinless nature as Jesus? Join Pastor Plek, Pastor Holland, and Jordan Smith for an insightful discussion as they tackle this profound theological question. They explore the intricacies of sin and moral perfection, considering themes of free will and the implications of divine love that allows for rejection. Echoing cinematic narratives like "Ex Machina," they ponder God's emotional capacity and the profound nature of love that encompasses both joy and pain, leading to redemption.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec, andjoining me in studios none
other than pastor holland greg.
Hello, welcome back.
Thank you, yeah and uh, jordansmith, welcome once again thank
you.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm surprised you didn't go with the forensic
scientist and comment againexcited to be here, though, but
you are.
Are you in any sort of friend?
No, I'm surprised you didn't gowith the forensic scientist.
Comment again Excited to behere, are?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
you in any sort of forensic?
No, but what do you call whatyou do then?
Data analytics, data analytics?
It's pretty much forensics.
If you ask me, what isforensics?
Okay, anyway, we won't have toget into that, but we have a
question that our people outthere want to know.
I'm going to read it.
I'm going to read it for us.
(00:48):
If God created Jesus, who livedas a sinless man and made his
father proud, presenting anideal for all humanity to aspire
to, why wouldn't God havesimply created everyone with the
same moral perfection?
From the outside?
Clearly, god has demonstratedthe ability to create a human
who does not disappoint him, sowhy not extend this perfection
to all of humanity from thestart?
Such an action would havespared us from countless
(01:08):
centuries of turmoil, sin andthe profound disappointment some
feel towards God and he hasfelt for us so many times.
Can you text that to me, real?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
quick.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I will text it to you .
Speaker 2 (01:18):
I missed the beginning.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Yeah, it is quite the challenge, I think, to kind of
wrap our heads around this truth, but we'd love to kind of hear
what you guys think, because Ithink this is where I think a
lot of people are going.
This is a common question thatmany people have.
It's like, essentially, whydoes God allow people to sin?
(01:41):
Why does God allow sin andsuffering?
Why does God allow pain?
It all comes back to that samequestion.
And what do you think when youfirst hear that?
What's your thought?
Just as the lay theologian,Jordan Smith, that's a question
I've had too.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
You and I have talked about it and you always say
it's a podcast question.
It is and here we are.
Here we are, so good job, Godfulfilling that.
I mean, the answer I hear isessentially free will, right,
Like we had the choice to sin.
So I mean, if we are allideally perfect and all that,
then we're just robots.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Right, that is the number one thing is like if, if
god created um, the world, orpeople, people, god created
people to just do what they'reprogrammed to do, then they
wouldn't actually love him, theywould just be robots.
(02:41):
That there is no risk.
The ultimate risk and this iswhy I think parents understand
this the ultimate risk is um isbeing rejected.
And so what?
God?
God, who is all powerful andall loving, and because he's all
(03:02):
powerful and all loving,subjects himself to the
possibility of rejection andgoes into it loving his creation
, that will one day reject him,which is sort of wild to think
about.
Have you ever?
I know this might go into amovie.
I think it's like Ex Machina orwhatever.
Never seen it.
Oh, it's this guy.
(03:24):
Like, it's kind of like.
Uh, tech billionaire elon muskcreates an ai robot that is so
realistic that, uh, a dude fallsin love with the robot oh,
that's her right.
That's what it's called is itcalled her oh?
there was one recently like andthis was like I think seven
years ago, eight years ago, yep,and anyway.
(03:47):
And he falls in love with thegirl.
It's a robot and she's got likea human face, but the rest is
all you know, robot-y um and andhe fall.
He does fall in love with her,but she is only has a
self-interest, she, she killsher creator, kills the guy that
falls in love with her and thenmoves on and it's like this yeah
(04:10):
, that makes sense uh, yeah, Iwouldn't have seen it going yeah
, oh sorry, yeah, sorry, spoileralert.
um, yeah, but I I think that'sthat's true risk in love that
you're creating something thatcould ultimately kill you, which
is what happens with the cross,but it was through the cross
that the redemption of humanitywas possible, where the Holy
(04:34):
Spirit is then empoweringChristians to do the right thing
for the right reason.
So, holland, where do you gowith the first, on the free will
aspect?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Well, hold on.
Yeah, go ahead.
Can God feel rejection?
Speaker 1 (04:45):
yeah, I think he can like I think god feels joy and
he feels pain, like I think thatthat just because so the cool
thing about god is he's outsidetime and space, he's
transcendent, but he's alsoimminent, which is why when he
weeps at the funeral of Lazarusyou know John 11, 35 shores
(05:06):
verse in the Bible Jesus wept.
He is crying not because hedoesn't know it's going to happy
, have a happy ending.
He's crying because he'simminently aware of the emotions
and the pain that people areexperiencing.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Yeah, I think that that particular case, though, is
Jesus in his human naturefeeling that, because otherwise
that would contradict the uh,divine impassibility right that
god is without passions, that hedoes not feel pain.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
um but things please him right, right, so can think
and like and he can be sorry hemade whoever.
Is that just a?
I think he can know he's goingto do it and know the reason why
he's going to do it and stillbe sorry about doing it anyway,
like when he said I'm sorry, Imade humanity and then he
destroys it with a flood.
(05:56):
Do you think that that?
I mean, I think that's afeeling that he's experiencing,
because he's feeling therejection and feeling the
darkness of the soul of humanity, but knowing transcendently
that ultimately what the plan is, I think that's where the
imminency of God and thetranscendency of God mix
together a little bit.
It might get a little confusing,but I do think he has the
(06:19):
ability to enjoy things, enjoythings, sing over things and at
least the personification of Godand this might be the part
where it gets confusing.
What is it?
But I do feel like there is apart of regret and pain and all
that, but he still knows it'sthe right thing to do, even
though it causes pain forhimself.
(06:40):
Ultimately, jesus on the crossis experiencing the wrath of God
and that's not a fun day.
There's a real sorrow of my God.
My God, why have you forsakenme, which you might say.
That's just only in his humannature that he'd be experiencing
that.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Yeah, and I don't want to get too off track from
the original question.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Yeah, my bad.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
But yeah, I mean, that might be a whole other
podcast.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Right, right, that might be a yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Yeah, because the question is about why does God,
why did?
If he's Essentially, why did heallow sin?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
right, yeah, yeah, essentially, why does he allow?
God's demonstrated the abilityto create a human who does not
disappoint him, so why notextend this perfection to all
humanity from the start?
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Okay, I think even before that, like if I were
reading the question, it startsoff by saying if God created
Jesus, which is not oh goodpoint, reality, not true.
God did not create Jesus, jesusis God, god.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Not a created being, not a created being.
Nice job, nice catch on that.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
So I think that would be one thing to address is that
Jesus is not a created being,and Jesus's perfection is
related to the fact that he isGod in the flesh Right and he is
not have he though he was.
He though he's human, he is nota sinful human.
(08:09):
He does not have the sinfulnature of adam, and that is why
he's not bound to nice fall intosin like we are.
Yeah, um, all of us who comefrom adam um inherit his sinful
nature, which jesus was did notinherit.
So that's one aspect of thequestion with regard to jesus
and his perfection yeah and Iyeah.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
And just to go back, I mean, this person, whoever
this is, is bringing backArianism, which is that Jesus is
the firstborn of all creation,using that Colossians 1 and
saying that he is a createdbeing because, look, he's the
firstborn of all creation, asopposed to seeing as, like he is
(08:51):
, the, the head of all ofcreation, or the has the
firstborn rights over allcreation right as opposed to
firstborn as a title, as a titlesimilar to how david is called
the firstborn, even though hewas what the seven?
Speaker 3 (09:06):
seven, yeah so, but as title, meaning the one who
inherits the rights and inheritsthe all of the blessings and
possessions of the father, andso Jesus is the firstborn in
that sense.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
So let's let's take that a step further.
I don't want to.
You can probably bring me backif I'm going too bonkers, but if
it's the question that wouldsay, if Jesus is God same
substance as God, then let's sayif Jesus is God same substance
as God, then why doesn't he justmake a zillion Jesuses?
Well, that gets back to thesame thing.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
That's a kind of a weird question, right Like Jesus
cannot be created, right,thousands, or whatever you said,
because Jesus is God, he'suncreated.
But I think the question if wecould maybe help the question,
ask her out a little bit issaying well, okay, certainly,
nothing is impossible for godand therefore, you know, jesus
(09:56):
isn't the, you can't use that asan example, because jesus is
god, but isn't god capable ofcreating a human who you know is
um, who would not sin, right?
Okay, so that's a differentquestion, but I think it's
getting at the same deal.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Okay, yeah, and I think ultimately we are going to
see that in the new heaven andnew earth, like you have humans
that are, uh, redeemed and don'thave capacity to sin.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
so that's what the new yeah, exactly new creation
um, after the return of jesuswill be all of god's redeemed,
all those who names are writtenin the lamb's book of life, who
have put their faith in Jesus,who are saved, given glorified
resurrection bodies completelyfree from not only the power and
penalty of sin, but also thepresence of sin Right.
(10:44):
And so there will be no sin, nosickness, no sadness no tears.
No tears.
He'll wipe every tear away fromour faces.
No sickness, no sadness, notears, no tears He'll wipe every
tear away from our faces.
So that is how that is.
You know what this person'sasking about the ability to
create a human who does notdisappoint him.
That's what eternity will beNew creation, filled with human
(11:04):
beings glorified and resurrectedby the grace of God and faith
in Jesus, who fully please Godfor all eternity.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Right Now.
Let's go to the question, then,that why not just start?
Speaker 2 (11:17):
there.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Yeah, yeah and I think that gets back to the
robotic nature of then.
You get away from the abilityto be rejected and there is no
risk and there is no real love,and so what so?
Speaker 3 (11:28):
I would yeah, go ahead, real love, and so so I
would, if you go ahead.
Just on that note, um, ifyou're defining real love by
risk, god doesn't take any risksbecause you know he's
omniscient, omnipotent.
Good point, yeah, so Iunderstand from a human
standpoint but, that's notessential to love as love Like
um right, but I think God lovesus in a true way, without any
(11:51):
risk.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Okay, fair enough, but I will say that you, if it's
a robot, there is no rejection,there is no relationship.
It's just a program, which iswhy as much as, for example, as
much as you can feel connectedto an AI like chat, gpt or
(12:12):
something, it's not real becauseit can't, it doesn't have the
ability to think on its own.
It's not.
Is it sentient?
Is that the word?
It has no conscience of its own.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Yeah, so I think the idea of us loving God, of our
own free will, having the choiceto sin but choosing God, I
think that's one philosophicallyand logically, I think that
makes sense Biblically.
I don't know that.
That's not where the Bibletends to, how the Bible tends to
(12:45):
answer that question.
I don't think I would say thatthere is, but it makes sense?
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Right, I would say that there is so, but it makes
sense.
Before sin there was free will,and then, after Adam and Eve
fell, then there was no freewill because they were damned to
their sin, and so they couldnot choose God apart from the
grace of God, which is whatwe're kind of agree with that.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
but where I was going was there are other arguments
that explain why God allowed sin, One in particular, I think
Romans 9,.
Paul asks it as a rhetoricalquestion, Right?
Speaker 1 (13:20):
right, right, and then answers it.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
So he doesn't necessarily say this is why God
does it.
But what if God, desiring toshow his wrath and make known
his power, has endured with muchpatience vessels of wrath
prepared for destruction inorder to make known the riches
of his glory, for vessels ofmercy which he has prepared
(13:45):
beforehand for glory?
And so he brings up thesituation you know asking what
if god did it?
For this reason, essentially,if no one ever sinned, we would,
um, there would be no reasonfor god's wrath.
It's good, right, yeah, god'swrath which I think you preached
on this a few weeks ago.
God's wrath actually glorifiesgod, um.
(14:05):
Also, there would be nooccasion for god's grace if
never sinned.
And so God's wrath and God'sgrace both magnify the um, the,
the love of God and thecharacter of God in ways that
would not have been seen, apartfrom people being plunged into,
you know, all the disgusting,awful stuff of sin, and then God
(14:28):
sending his son to rescue usout of it.
That actually glorifies God andshows aspects of his
multifaceted glory um thatwouldn't have been shown were
sin never to have enteredcreation yeah, and so does that
make sense?
Speaker 1 (14:42):
no, it totally makes sense, which is well, hold on.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
So that verse that you just read has always been
kind of difficult for me, in thesense that it says god prepared
beforehand certain people fordestruction, right?
So just never had a chance forsalvation.
If he prepared them that, right, the choice of words seems off
no, no.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
So this gets into a doctrine called super
lapsarianism orinfralapsarianism, which means
before god thought of the fall,the lapse, before he thought
whom he would save and who hewould love, who would be the
vessels that were honorable use.
And he's like how can I makevessels of dishonorable use?
(15:25):
Oh, the fall and I'll redeemthe good ones.
And then there's something infor lapsarianism, which is he
thought of?
First he thought of um, hewanted to create humanity.
Then he realized if he gavepeople free will there would be
a fall.
And then he chose to save somefor honorable purposes and the
rest he would leave fordishonorable purposes yeah, but
(15:48):
to me that's just hard to chew.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Swallow, yeah, it just seems messed up why, why
are some people just screwed andbound for hell, like without
having an opportunity that to meI don't know, like I don't want
to go to hell and burn for therest of eternity just because
god's like no, you suck yeah,and remember, remember there's
variant levels of hell, like tothe degree by which you are dark
(16:15):
and evil, that's the degree bywhich you'll receive separation
from God, or like the darknessof it and how hard your heart is
.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
But, yeah, that's the part that people get kind of
offended by.
But, on the flip side, if youare saved, that's very endearing
and exciting.
That God chose me, like I amvaluable enough, that God said I
want this one, and that meanssomething.
And so that's why Romans 9 issuch a powerful verse for those
(16:46):
who are saved and such a hardverse for those who are not,
which is why, then, we compelpeople to be saved, like there's
second Corinthians.
Five is like calling us to urgepeople to be saved.
Now, ultimately, ultimately,that's up to God and he's in
complete control of that Um, andhe gives people the Holy spirit
by his own grace.
But man, um that you can't have, um, uh, god's either, because
(17:14):
if it's not that way, then it'sby work.
So you're saved.
And that seems impossiblebecause we look around and
everybody's works based on theirtraining, based on their
upbringing, based on theirraising.
Like it seems like you're bornin the good people land, where
people were affluent and hadenough food and water and then
have like trauma from childhood.
They're not going to haveissues and they're probably
(17:34):
going to get to heaven wayeasier, as opposed to God's
sheer grace in it all.
So it doesn't matter if you'rea drug addict kid or a drug
addict or a murderer or whateverenvironment you grew up in.
There's no amount of trainingthat's going to get you into
heaven, other than God'sunbelievable grace, which puts
(17:56):
more of the emphasis on God'schoosing, which then puts the
emphasis on his great love forus, as opposed to our ability to
earn our way or be something.
And that's the whole point.
That Paul is saying is that youcan't by your own volition, by
your own ability, make yourselfrighteous enough for God,
because no one is righteous no,not one.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Okay.
So if let's say, I feelprompted to evangelize, to
someone and I choose not to.
Am I responsible if that persongoes to hell?
Speaker 1 (18:23):
So thankfully, no, but you missed out an
opportunity to be obedient toJesus.
Okay, so why evangelize at all?
(18:49):
Then command, it gives youpurpose and you get to see God's
work right in front of you.
Because if you're not involvedin evangelism then that's, in
general, where your faith growsstagnant and you get angry and
you don't get to see God's graceextended beyond yourself and
you get to see the expansion ofthe kingdom, and that should
just ignite your heart.
(19:11):
Every time somebody gets it forthe first time, it should make
you go.
Oh, I remember what that waslike when I was lost in sin and,
oh, praise God, he has chosento save another person, can I?
Speaker 3 (19:20):
jump in on that too, Please.
It's kind of like saying, well,if God do, I believe God's
going to take care of mychildren yes, I do.
Well, then why should I parentthem?
Why should I feed them if God'sgoing to feed them?
Well, because God ordains notonly the ends but also the means
.
He ordains not only theoutcomes but also the process by
(19:43):
which the outcomes arepossessed.
That's a way smarter way ofsaying what I said.
So one this is the WestminsterConfession of Faith.
There's a whole section thataddresses this.
It's a good thing you have abible that has all the creeds in
the esv creeds and confessionsbible.
It's yeah, it's well, you knowit's a superior bible I, I have
things that are.
There's things that are greatabout it and things that aren't
(20:04):
so great.
Okay, they just released anupdate changing some stuff.
They change stuff all the time.
It's kind of annoying.
But, um, in the back it's gotwestminster confession of faith.
Um, as well, as there's morewritten in the Westminster
Confession than the LondonBaptist Confession.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
But it says there's a section of God's eternal decree
, and it says section six onhere as God hath appointed the
elect unto glory, so hath he, bythe eternal and most free
purpose of his will,foreordained all the means
thereunto.
So essentially that same thing.
(20:39):
God has not just appointed thatthey will be saved, he has also
appointed how they will come tobe saved.
And what he has appointed interms of the means is the
proclamation of the gospel.
How can they hear without apreacher?
Right?
It's Romans 10.
So it's not just that God hasordained someone would be saved,
but he's ordained that, inorder to get that person saved,
(21:00):
someone's going to go and preachthe gospel to them.
Just like I know God wants totake care of my children, I
understand the primary way he'sgoing to do that in this time is
through me, their father.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, but what do you mean byby?
(21:21):
You know he's going to takecare of your kids, like,
couldn't one of them be boundfor hell already?
Well, I meant in a temporalsense like, um, you know,
shelter, food, um, I, I believegod is a provider, but in terms
of their eternal salvation, um,we don't know.
We're not god.
We don't know who's saved andwho's not saved.
So we want to preach the gospelindiscriminately to everyone
and I want to, as a father, interms of the spiritual state of
(21:41):
my kids, do everything I can topray for them, to disciple them,
to lead them to faith in God.
But ultimately, their eternityis in God's hands and I trust
God with that.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
And I trust God with that, I have every good reason
to believe that they will besaved and go to heaven, because
I believe God works through themeans of godly families
discipling their kids andfollowing Jesus.
But I can't say with absolutecertainty.
Only God knows with absolutecertainty.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, I mean, I remember when Idid the membership application
here, and it's like on a scaleof one to 10, now how much do
you think you're saved?
And I said nine.
I think I told you that already.
I'll never give a 10 to that.
It's in God's hand.
Now Well.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
So here's my pushback on that is to say that the
reason that every Christian,that I would submit to you, that
every Christian should say 10,is that it's not based on your
obedience, it's not based onyour good works, it's based on
Jesus.
And so Jesus died and rose.
(22:44):
His death on the cross wassufficient to pay for our sin
debt to God.
His resurrection is, you know,a demonstration of God's power
to raise the dead and hispromise to save all those who
believe in him.
So if you believe in Jesus,it's a 10.
If you don't believe in Jesus,it's a zero.
There's a, really a five, a sixa seven, an eight a nine.
(23:08):
Yeah, it's really just saying Idon't know if I really believe
in Jesus or not, and so I don'tknow if that's what you mean by
it.
But if you're saying I'm a nine, what about like Doubting
Thomas right?
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Is he a?
Speaker 1 (23:21):
10 or what?
Doubting Thomas was definitelya 10 because Jesus showed up.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
And also he wasn't doubting whether or not Jesus's
death and resurrection weresufficient for his salvation.
He was doubting whether or notthat actually was Jesus.
Was it a ghost?
Was it a demon?
Was it an angel?
His doubts were how do I knowit's really you?
That's why he had to touch thewounds in him to make him go
(23:50):
okay, this really is you.
So his doubts weren'tnecessarily about his salvation,
but it was about whether or not.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
That was Jesus, yeah, which I guess you could say
could be a doubt about hissalvation if that wasn't Jesus.
Right, and then we're all lost.
Sure, yeah, because it wasn'traised from the dead.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
And that's where I go .
Yeah, we all do have doubts.
Like I think that's a normalpart of faith, is doubt Right
and that we go.
Am I really sure about this?
But you know, if it's a doubtabout whether or not Jesus
really is God, if he really diddie and rise again, but if it's
a doubt about whether or not hisdeath is sufficient to save you
(24:19):
, I think scripture answers that.
There should be no room fordoubt there.
Scripture says whoever believesshall not perish but have
eternal life.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
And 1 John 5, 13,.
I write these things to you whobelieve in the name of the son
of God that you may know youhave eternal life and I feel
like that's pretty clear.
He's writing it for the purpose, so you have assurance, so
you're not sitting there going.
I think I'm a nine.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
That's where I feel like Faith is the assurance of
things hoped for Hebrews 11.1.
There you go, so myencouragement to you would be
like man, I want you to be a 10.
Not because—.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Is it a choice?
What's that?
Is it a choice?
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Is what a choice?
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Is being a 10 a choice?
Yes, faith, full assured faithIs that a choice?
Speaker 3 (25:04):
Well, I would just say, if you start explaining why
you're a 9, I think that getsinto probably for you more of a
discipleship and doctrine issueof like what is it that, um,
that would bridge the gapbetween nine and ten?
Speaker 2 (25:18):
yeah, I mean, I have doubts.
You, you said, we all havedoubts, so doubts about what I
mean doubts that god is real.
No, we can.
I mean we can go.
Just you know, was jesusactually here back then?
Did that actually happen?
Yeah um, I feel like I can'tsay that a hundred percent.
So is that a choice to do that,or is that something on God's
(25:42):
end to give that to the person?
Speaker 1 (25:45):
That's a great question.
That is a great question.
Probably a little bit of both.
Yeah, the initial onset is likehe gives you the ability to
believe that and you're savedthrough that.
But then you're gonna gothrough in your sanctification
process probably ebbs and flows,but it's hard like this is
where you you know that you'resaved.
When you go, I rest my hope inthe resurrection, not in my own
(26:09):
ability to be good like.
That's probably the determinantfactor if you're saved or not.
Like when you're worshiping andyou're like man, I finally feel
relaxed because I'm good enough.
That is sort of a weird thingto be worshiping.
But if you just look at Jesusand you're like I am in the
presence of the Lord and I feelloved by Him, I don't know this
gets into feelings-basedassurance.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yeah, that's what I was going to say Scripture,
feelings-based assurance.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yeah, that's what I was going to say.
The scripture is clear that ifyou believe in the name of the
Son of God, if you believe inJesus, that you'll know you have
eternal life.
If you accept that, or if youconfess with your mouth that
Jesus is Lord and believe thatGod raised Him from the dead,
you will be saved.
And one of the things that,whenever I did prison ministry,
we said can you accept that Godraised him from the dead?
(26:56):
And how much belief do you need?
Is it a mustard seed of faith,or is it, like you know, granite
slab?
Amount of faith?
You know what is it, and Ithink that's the part where only
obviously God knows.
But you should have anassurance of your faith or there
should be this unbelievablesense of dread on your soul that
(27:18):
says what must I do to be saved, or a complete rejection of it.
It's hard to live in the Idon't know muddy middle, I guess
, of like am I really saved?
Speaker 3 (27:35):
what's important to understand is that the, the
bible, you know this, the, theteaching of scripture about
salvation, is not that like.
It's not like jesus, plussomething that you've done so
for you to understand that it'scompletely based on the finished
work of jesus means that ifjesus really is real and he
really is the son of god whodied and rose, Then you and you
believe in him, you're 10 out of10 getting saved.
It's it's so like for for somepeople it's like, well, it's a
(28:00):
nine, because I have good daysand bad days, and it's kind of
based on their own morality,their own good works or lack
thereof or something.
And so that's why I say theBible doesn't allow for that.
It's not like you believe inJesus and you lived this certain
way.
That kind of finishes up whatJesus started for you on the
cross.
But what you're saying is I'mnot sure that I really believe
(28:23):
Jesus is real.
I 90% do, but there's some dayswhere I'm not so sure, To which
I would say that's something Ithink just to ask the Lord for,
to increase your confidence inhim, to reveal himself to you.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Right, and maybe that one that's missing.
Chris, you said about feelingsand everything.
Maybe that's.
All it is is just thosefeelings that I have sometimes
because I'm more of a feeling.
I feel a lot.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
I'm with you on that, I understand.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Feelings aren't truth , though right, so maybe that's
why I feel that way.
As far'm with you on that.
I understand.
Feelings aren't truth, thoughright, so maybe that's why I
feel that way as far as a nineout of ten.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Well, our feelings are.
They're fickle, they can bealigned with truth, but they're
not always aligned with truth,Right?
So, like our feelings, we'resupposed to feel good things.
We're supposed to feel pleasureand feel, you know, we're
supposed to feel sadness at sadthings.
But sometimes we can like, if Ihave a bad day and I preach a
(29:22):
sermon and I feel like I didn'tdo a great job, right, Lead a
church event, and I felt like Iwasn't a good leader, or I lose
my temper with my wife or mychildren, I can start feeling
really down about myself.
And then that's when and thisis where the enemy, you know
Jesus called him a liar and amurderer from the beginning.
He's a liar.
He takes those feelings andtries to tell you that those are
true.
Yeah, you are.
(29:42):
You know why would you thinkyou're saved when you acted like
that?
Why would you think that Godloves you when you said that?
And so the enemy tries tocondemn I think, sometimes, when
our feelings are feeling downon ourself and we do start to
doubt, but that's where, I wouldsay, the scripture reminds us.
You know what?
I am a sinner and I did screwup and I did do all that, but
(30:04):
Jesus paid for it on the cross.
Well, like the scripture triesto encourage us back to 10 out
of 10, confidence and assuranceof things hoped for, even though
we do doubt.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Yeah, I like 2 Corinthians, 10, 5,.
We destroy arguments and everylofty opinion raised against the
knowledge of God and take everythought captive to obey Christ.
And I think, even in thosedoubts, it's like I take those
thoughts that are set up againstthe knowledge of God which he's
clearly given in his word, andthen I'm going to take my
thoughts captive to whenever thedarkness comes and says that
(30:36):
may not be true.
That's probably why you're amess, that's probably why none
of this is working for you andyou've got to sort of take
ownership of your faith in thosemoments and take that thought
captive, kind of to the point wewere talking about on a
previous podcast where, likebruce jenner took thought it
took, took, uh, his thoughtscaptive, going trans while he
(30:58):
had he was married and had kids.
It's it's like that, taking thethought captive, whatever it is
, that sets itself up againstthe knowledge of god, to remind
yourself no, I'm under thespirit's control and I'm not
gonna let satan, I'm not gonnalet my flesh, I'm not going to
let Satan, I'm not going to letmy flesh, I'm not going to let
the world heal me away fromChrist.
Yeah, that's a great discussion.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Yeah, the last part here, I think.
Just to get back to theoriginal question, I love how
you bring it always back.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah, I was waiting for this.
You're the second way back, youknow what, yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
So to take it back, you know where.
It says that God has appointedthe elect to glory and also the
means it goes on the rest ofmankind.
God was pleased according tothe unsearchable counsel of his
own will, whereby he extendethor withholdeth mercy as he
pleaseth.
You gotta love the iths hereFor the glory of his sovereign
(31:48):
power over his creatures to passby and to ordain them to
dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious
justice.
So Westminster Confession agreeswith what Paul says in Romans 9
, that at least one purpose wasto bring about the praise of
God's glorious justice and thepunishment of sin, that if no
(32:11):
one ever sinned, that therewould be no occasion for God's
justice Right and then that Godwould not be as glorified in
that way.
So that's at least one answer.
The other thing that youbrought up, I think maybe
another part of the answerhaving to do with our free will
and choosing God.
But ultimately I think, likethe good news of what that
(32:32):
person asked, is like one day wewill experience that you will,
that all who believe in Jesus wewill live in a redeemed new
creation where we fully pleaseGod forever, with no sin.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
And this time period will be seen so short in light
of eternity, and I think that'swhat's hard for people to wrap
their head around, which is whyGod is patient, not wanting
anyone to perish but all to cometo eternal life people to wrap
their head around, which is whyGod is patient, not wanting
anyone to perish but all to cometo eternal life.
And so it might feel like thisis an elongated period of time
where we're dealing with thewrath of man and the sin of
humanity and we have not fullybeen given over to Christ yet.
(33:05):
But ultimately, one day thatJesus will eradicate the evil of
man and doom that to, or damnit to hell, and then he'll
glorify himself by bringingthose whom he has saved into his
presence, where there'll be nosin, it'll be the, the perfect
royal city community, you knowand people will have different
roles and execute them perfectly, from the janitor to the mayor
(33:30):
or the king or whatever and whatwe see in part now.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
We'll see, you know imperfectionfection then yeah,
so things that we may not everfully.
It may just seem more like amystery now for the rest of our
lives, but we can trust thatwhen Jesus comes back and he
renews all things, we will beable to see, you know, with,
(33:53):
look back on this period of timeand all sin and all that stuff
and be able to understand, ohman, how much more glory God
receives because of it.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
All right, hey, thanks so much for watching.
If you got any questions, textthem at 737-231-0605 or go to
pastorplekcom and leave a notefor us there.
We'd love to hear from you.
We're talking currently on theSong of Solomon.
We're talking sex.
We're talking relationships.
We're talking marriage.
If you want to join in thatconversation, we would love to
answer your question.
(34:22):
Thanks so much for watchingFrom our house to yours.
Have an awesome week.
welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec, andjoining me in studios none
other than pastor holland greg.
Hello, welcome back.
Thank you, yeah and uh, jordansmith, welcome once again thank
you.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm surprised you didn't go with the forensic
scientist and comment againexcited to be here, though, but
you are.
Are you in any sort of friend?
No, I'm surprised you didn't gowith the forensic scientist.
Comment again Excited to behere, are?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
you in any sort of forensic?
No, but what do you call whatyou do then?
Data analytics, data analytics?
It's pretty much forensics.
If you ask me, what isforensics?
Okay, anyway, we won't have toget into that, but we have a
question that our people outthere want to know.
I'm going to read it.
I'm going to read it for us.
(00:48):
If God created Jesus, who livedas a sinless man and made his
father proud, presenting anideal for all humanity to aspire
to, why wouldn't God havesimply created everyone with the
same moral perfection?
From the outside?
Clearly, god has demonstratedthe ability to create a human
who does not disappoint him, sowhy not extend this perfection
to all of humanity from thestart?
Such an action would havespared us from countless
(01:08):
centuries of turmoil, sin andthe profound disappointment some
feel towards God and he hasfelt for us so many times.
Can you text that to me, real?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
quick.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I will text it to you .
Speaker 2 (01:18):
I missed the beginning.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Yeah, it is quite the challenge, I think, to kind of
wrap our heads around this truth, but we'd love to kind of hear
what you guys think, because Ithink this is where I think a
lot of people are going.
This is a common question thatmany people have.
It's like, essentially, whydoes God allow people to sin?
(01:41):
Why does God allow sin andsuffering?
Why does God allow pain?
It all comes back to that samequestion.
And what do you think when youfirst hear that?
What's your thought?
Just as the lay theologian,Jordan Smith, that's a question
I've had too.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
You and I have talked about it and you always say
it's a podcast question.
It is and here we are.
Here we are, so good job, Godfulfilling that.
I mean, the answer I hear isessentially free will, right,
Like we had the choice to sin.
So I mean, if we are allideally perfect and all that,
then we're just robots.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Right, that is the number one thing is like if, if
god created um, the world, orpeople, people, god created
people to just do what they'reprogrammed to do, then they
wouldn't actually love him, theywould just be robots.
(02:41):
That there is no risk.
The ultimate risk and this iswhy I think parents understand
this the ultimate risk is um isbeing rejected.
And so what?
God?
God, who is all powerful andall loving, and because he's all
(03:02):
powerful and all loving,subjects himself to the
possibility of rejection andgoes into it loving his creation
, that will one day reject him,which is sort of wild to think
about.
Have you ever?
I know this might go into amovie.
I think it's like Ex Machina orwhatever.
Never seen it.
Oh, it's this guy.
(03:24):
Like, it's kind of like.
Uh, tech billionaire elon muskcreates an ai robot that is so
realistic that, uh, a dude fallsin love with the robot oh,
that's her right.
That's what it's called is itcalled her oh?
there was one recently like andthis was like I think seven
years ago, eight years ago, yep,and anyway.
(03:47):
And he falls in love with thegirl.
It's a robot and she's got likea human face, but the rest is
all you know, robot-y um and andhe fall.
He does fall in love with her,but she is only has a
self-interest, she, she killsher creator, kills the guy that
falls in love with her and thenmoves on and it's like this yeah
(04:10):
, that makes sense uh, yeah, Iwouldn't have seen it going yeah
, oh sorry, yeah, sorry, spoileralert.
um, yeah, but I I think that'sthat's true risk in love that
you're creating something thatcould ultimately kill you, which
is what happens with the cross,but it was through the cross
that the redemption of humanitywas possible, where the Holy
(04:34):
Spirit is then empoweringChristians to do the right thing
for the right reason.
So, holland, where do you gowith the first, on the free will
aspect?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Well, hold on.
Yeah, go ahead.
Can God feel rejection?
Speaker 1 (04:45):
yeah, I think he can like I think god feels joy and
he feels pain, like I think thatthat just because so the cool
thing about god is he's outsidetime and space, he's
transcendent, but he's alsoimminent, which is why when he
weeps at the funeral of Lazarusyou know John 11, 35 shores
(05:06):
verse in the Bible Jesus wept.
He is crying not because hedoesn't know it's going to happy
, have a happy ending.
He's crying because he'simminently aware of the emotions
and the pain that people areexperiencing.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Yeah, I think that that particular case, though, is
Jesus in his human naturefeeling that, because otherwise
that would contradict the uh,divine impassibility right that
god is without passions, that hedoes not feel pain.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
um but things please him right, right, so can think
and like and he can be sorry hemade whoever.
Is that just a?
I think he can know he's goingto do it and know the reason why
he's going to do it and stillbe sorry about doing it anyway,
like when he said I'm sorry, Imade humanity and then he
destroys it with a flood.
(05:56):
Do you think that that?
I mean, I think that's afeeling that he's experiencing,
because he's feeling therejection and feeling the
darkness of the soul of humanity, but knowing transcendently
that ultimately what the plan is, I think that's where the
imminency of God and thetranscendency of God mix
together a little bit.
It might get a little confusing,but I do think he has the
(06:19):
ability to enjoy things, enjoythings, sing over things and at
least the personification of Godand this might be the part
where it gets confusing.
What is it?
But I do feel like there is apart of regret and pain and all
that, but he still knows it'sthe right thing to do, even
though it causes pain forhimself.
(06:40):
Ultimately, jesus on the crossis experiencing the wrath of God
and that's not a fun day.
There's a real sorrow of my God.
My God, why have you forsakenme, which you might say.
That's just only in his humannature that he'd be experiencing
that.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Yeah, and I don't want to get too off track from
the original question.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Yeah, my bad.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
But yeah, I mean, that might be a whole other
podcast.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Right, right, that might be a yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Yeah, because the question is about why does God,
why did?
If he's Essentially, why did heallow sin?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
right, yeah, yeah, essentially, why does he allow?
God's demonstrated the abilityto create a human who does not
disappoint him, so why notextend this perfection to all
humanity from the start?
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Okay, I think even before that, like if I were
reading the question, it startsoff by saying if God created
Jesus, which is not oh goodpoint, reality, not true.
God did not create Jesus, jesusis God, god.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Not a created being, not a created being.
Nice job, nice catch on that.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
So I think that would be one thing to address is that
Jesus is not a created being,and Jesus's perfection is
related to the fact that he isGod in the flesh Right and he is
not have he though he was.
He though he's human, he is nota sinful human.
(08:09):
He does not have the sinfulnature of adam, and that is why
he's not bound to nice fall intosin like we are.
Yeah, um, all of us who comefrom adam um inherit his sinful
nature, which jesus was did notinherit.
So that's one aspect of thequestion with regard to jesus
and his perfection yeah and Iyeah.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
And just to go back, I mean, this person, whoever
this is, is bringing backArianism, which is that Jesus is
the firstborn of all creation,using that Colossians 1 and
saying that he is a createdbeing because, look, he's the
firstborn of all creation, asopposed to seeing as, like he is
(08:51):
, the, the head of all ofcreation, or the has the
firstborn rights over allcreation right as opposed to
firstborn as a title, as a titlesimilar to how david is called
the firstborn, even though hewas what the seven?
Speaker 3 (09:06):
seven, yeah so, but as title, meaning the one who
inherits the rights and inheritsthe all of the blessings and
possessions of the father, andso Jesus is the firstborn in
that sense.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
So let's let's take that a step further.
I don't want to.
You can probably bring me backif I'm going too bonkers, but if
it's the question that wouldsay, if Jesus is God same
substance as God, then let's sayif Jesus is God same substance
as God, then why doesn't he justmake a zillion Jesuses?
Well, that gets back to thesame thing.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
That's a kind of a weird question, right Like Jesus
cannot be created, right,thousands, or whatever you said,
because Jesus is God, he'suncreated.
But I think the question if wecould maybe help the question,
ask her out a little bit issaying well, okay, certainly,
nothing is impossible for godand therefore, you know, jesus
(09:56):
isn't the, you can't use that asan example, because jesus is
god, but isn't god capable ofcreating a human who you know is
um, who would not sin, right?
Okay, so that's a differentquestion, but I think it's
getting at the same deal.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Okay, yeah, and I think ultimately we are going to
see that in the new heaven andnew earth, like you have humans
that are, uh, redeemed and don'thave capacity to sin.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
so that's what the new yeah, exactly new creation
um, after the return of jesuswill be all of god's redeemed,
all those who names are writtenin the lamb's book of life, who
have put their faith in Jesus,who are saved, given glorified
resurrection bodies completelyfree from not only the power and
penalty of sin, but also thepresence of sin Right.
(10:44):
And so there will be no sin, nosickness, no sadness no tears.
No tears.
He'll wipe every tear away fromour faces.
No sickness, no sadness, notears, no tears He'll wipe every
tear away from our faces.
So that is how that is.
You know what this person'sasking about the ability to
create a human who does notdisappoint him.
That's what eternity will beNew creation, filled with human
(11:04):
beings glorified and resurrectedby the grace of God and faith
in Jesus, who fully please Godfor all eternity.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Right Now.
Let's go to the question, then,that why not just start?
Speaker 2 (11:17):
there.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Yeah, yeah and I think that gets back to the
robotic nature of then.
You get away from the abilityto be rejected and there is no
risk and there is no real love,and so what so?
Speaker 3 (11:28):
I would yeah, go ahead, real love, and so so I
would, if you go ahead.
Just on that note, um, ifyou're defining real love by
risk, god doesn't take any risksbecause you know he's
omniscient, omnipotent.
Good point, yeah, so Iunderstand from a human
standpoint but, that's notessential to love as love Like
um right, but I think God lovesus in a true way, without any
(11:51):
risk.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Okay, fair enough, but I will say that you, if it's
a robot, there is no rejection,there is no relationship.
It's just a program, which iswhy as much as, for example, as
much as you can feel connectedto an AI like chat, gpt or
(12:12):
something, it's not real becauseit can't, it doesn't have the
ability to think on its own.
It's not.
Is it sentient?
Is that the word?
It has no conscience of its own.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Yeah, so I think the idea of us loving God, of our
own free will, having the choiceto sin but choosing God, I
think that's one philosophicallyand logically, I think that
makes sense Biblically.
I don't know that.
That's not where the Bibletends to, how the Bible tends to
(12:45):
answer that question.
I don't think I would say thatthere is, but it makes sense?
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Right, I would say that there is so, but it makes
sense.
Before sin there was free will,and then, after Adam and Eve
fell, then there was no freewill because they were damned to
their sin, and so they couldnot choose God apart from the
grace of God, which is whatwe're kind of agree with that.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
but where I was going was there are other arguments
that explain why God allowed sin, One in particular, I think
Romans 9,.
Paul asks it as a rhetoricalquestion, Right?
Speaker 1 (13:20):
right, right, and then answers it.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
So he doesn't necessarily say this is why God
does it.
But what if God, desiring toshow his wrath and make known
his power, has endured with muchpatience vessels of wrath
prepared for destruction inorder to make known the riches
of his glory, for vessels ofmercy which he has prepared
(13:45):
beforehand for glory?
And so he brings up thesituation you know asking what
if god did it?
For this reason, essentially,if no one ever sinned, we would,
um, there would be no reasonfor god's wrath.
It's good, right, yeah, god'swrath which I think you preached
on this a few weeks ago.
God's wrath actually glorifiesgod, um.
(14:05):
Also, there would be nooccasion for god's grace if
never sinned.
And so God's wrath and God'sgrace both magnify the um, the,
the love of God and thecharacter of God in ways that
would not have been seen, apartfrom people being plunged into,
you know, all the disgusting,awful stuff of sin, and then God
(14:28):
sending his son to rescue usout of it.
That actually glorifies God andshows aspects of his
multifaceted glory um thatwouldn't have been shown were
sin never to have enteredcreation yeah, and so does that
make sense?
Speaker 1 (14:42):
no, it totally makes sense, which is well, hold on.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
So that verse that you just read has always been
kind of difficult for me, in thesense that it says god prepared
beforehand certain people fordestruction, right?
So just never had a chance forsalvation.
If he prepared them that, right, the choice of words seems off
no, no.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
So this gets into a doctrine called super
lapsarianism orinfralapsarianism, which means
before god thought of the fall,the lapse, before he thought
whom he would save and who hewould love, who would be the
vessels that were honorable use.
And he's like how can I makevessels of dishonorable use?
(15:25):
Oh, the fall and I'll redeemthe good ones.
And then there's something infor lapsarianism, which is he
thought of?
First he thought of um, hewanted to create humanity.
Then he realized if he gavepeople free will there would be
a fall.
And then he chose to save somefor honorable purposes and the
rest he would leave fordishonorable purposes yeah, but
(15:48):
to me that's just hard to chew.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Swallow, yeah, it just seems messed up why, why
are some people just screwed andbound for hell, like without
having an opportunity that to meI don't know, like I don't want
to go to hell and burn for therest of eternity just because
god's like no, you suck yeah,and remember, remember there's
variant levels of hell, like tothe degree by which you are dark
(16:15):
and evil, that's the degree bywhich you'll receive separation
from God, or like the darknessof it and how hard your heart is
.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
But, yeah, that's the part that people get kind of
offended by.
But, on the flip side, if youare saved, that's very endearing
and exciting.
That God chose me, like I amvaluable enough, that God said I
want this one, and that meanssomething.
And so that's why Romans 9 issuch a powerful verse for those
(16:46):
who are saved and such a hardverse for those who are not,
which is why, then, we compelpeople to be saved, like there's
second Corinthians.
Five is like calling us to urgepeople to be saved.
Now, ultimately, ultimately,that's up to God and he's in
complete control of that Um, andhe gives people the Holy spirit
by his own grace.
But man, um that you can't have, um, uh, god's either, because
(17:14):
if it's not that way, then it'sby work.
So you're saved.
And that seems impossiblebecause we look around and
everybody's works based on theirtraining, based on their
upbringing, based on theirraising.
Like it seems like you're bornin the good people land, where
people were affluent and hadenough food and water and then
have like trauma from childhood.
They're not going to haveissues and they're probably
(17:34):
going to get to heaven wayeasier, as opposed to God's
sheer grace in it all.
So it doesn't matter if you'rea drug addict kid or a drug
addict or a murderer or whateverenvironment you grew up in.
There's no amount of trainingthat's going to get you into
heaven, other than God'sunbelievable grace, which puts
(17:56):
more of the emphasis on God'schoosing, which then puts the
emphasis on his great love forus, as opposed to our ability to
earn our way or be something.
And that's the whole point.
That Paul is saying is that youcan't by your own volition, by
your own ability, make yourselfrighteous enough for God,
because no one is righteous no,not one.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Okay.
So if let's say, I feelprompted to evangelize, to
someone and I choose not to.
Am I responsible if that persongoes to hell?
Speaker 1 (18:23):
So thankfully, no, but you missed out an
opportunity to be obedient toJesus.
Okay, so why evangelize at all?
(18:49):
Then command, it gives youpurpose and you get to see God's
work right in front of you.
Because if you're not involvedin evangelism then that's, in
general, where your faith growsstagnant and you get angry and
you don't get to see God's graceextended beyond yourself and
you get to see the expansion ofthe kingdom, and that should
just ignite your heart.
(19:11):
Every time somebody gets it forthe first time, it should make
you go.
Oh, I remember what that waslike when I was lost in sin and,
oh, praise God, he has chosento save another person, can I?
Speaker 3 (19:20):
jump in on that too, Please.
It's kind of like saying, well,if God do, I believe God's
going to take care of mychildren yes, I do.
Well, then why should I parentthem?
Why should I feed them if God'sgoing to feed them?
Well, because God ordains notonly the ends but also the means
.
He ordains not only theoutcomes but also the process by
(19:43):
which the outcomes arepossessed.
That's a way smarter way ofsaying what I said.
So one this is the WestminsterConfession of Faith.
There's a whole section thataddresses this.
It's a good thing you have abible that has all the creeds in
the esv creeds and confessionsbible.
It's yeah, it's well, you knowit's a superior bible I, I have
things that are.
There's things that are greatabout it and things that aren't
(20:04):
so great.
Okay, they just released anupdate changing some stuff.
They change stuff all the time.
It's kind of annoying.
But, um, in the back it's gotwestminster confession of faith.
Um, as well, as there's morewritten in the Westminster
Confession than the LondonBaptist Confession.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
But it says there's a section of God's eternal decree
, and it says section six onhere as God hath appointed the
elect unto glory, so hath he, bythe eternal and most free
purpose of his will,foreordained all the means
thereunto.
So essentially that same thing.
(20:39):
God has not just appointed thatthey will be saved, he has also
appointed how they will come tobe saved.
And what he has appointed interms of the means is the
proclamation of the gospel.
How can they hear without apreacher?
Right?
It's Romans 10.
So it's not just that God hasordained someone would be saved,
but he's ordained that, inorder to get that person saved,
(21:00):
someone's going to go and preachthe gospel to them.
Just like I know God wants totake care of my children, I
understand the primary way he'sgoing to do that in this time is
through me, their father.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, but what do you mean byby?
(21:21):
You know he's going to takecare of your kids, like,
couldn't one of them be boundfor hell already?
Well, I meant in a temporalsense like, um, you know,
shelter, food, um, I, I believegod is a provider, but in terms
of their eternal salvation, um,we don't know.
We're not god.
We don't know who's saved andwho's not saved.
So we want to preach the gospelindiscriminately to everyone
and I want to, as a father, interms of the spiritual state of
(21:41):
my kids, do everything I can topray for them, to disciple them,
to lead them to faith in God.
But ultimately, their eternityis in God's hands and I trust
God with that.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
And I trust God with that, I have every good reason
to believe that they will besaved and go to heaven, because
I believe God works through themeans of godly families
discipling their kids andfollowing Jesus.
But I can't say with absolutecertainty.
Only God knows with absolutecertainty.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, I mean, I remember when Idid the membership application
here, and it's like on a scaleof one to 10, now how much do
you think you're saved?
And I said nine.
I think I told you that already.
I'll never give a 10 to that.
It's in God's hand.
Now Well.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
So here's my pushback on that is to say that the
reason that every Christian,that I would submit to you, that
every Christian should say 10,is that it's not based on your
obedience, it's not based onyour good works, it's based on
Jesus.
And so Jesus died and rose.
(22:44):
His death on the cross wassufficient to pay for our sin
debt to God.
His resurrection is, you know,a demonstration of God's power
to raise the dead and hispromise to save all those who
believe in him.
So if you believe in Jesus,it's a 10.
If you don't believe in Jesus,it's a zero.
There's a, really a five, a sixa seven, an eight a nine.
(23:08):
Yeah, it's really just saying Idon't know if I really believe
in Jesus or not, and so I don'tknow if that's what you mean by
it.
But if you're saying I'm a nine, what about like Doubting
Thomas right?
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Is he a?
Speaker 1 (23:21):
10 or what?
Doubting Thomas was definitelya 10 because Jesus showed up.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
And also he wasn't doubting whether or not Jesus's
death and resurrection weresufficient for his salvation.
He was doubting whether or notthat actually was Jesus.
Was it a ghost?
Was it a demon?
Was it an angel?
His doubts were how do I knowit's really you?
That's why he had to touch thewounds in him to make him go
(23:50):
okay, this really is you.
So his doubts weren'tnecessarily about his salvation,
but it was about whether or not.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
That was Jesus, yeah, which I guess you could say
could be a doubt about hissalvation if that wasn't Jesus.
Right, and then we're all lost.
Sure, yeah, because it wasn'traised from the dead.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
And that's where I go .
Yeah, we all do have doubts.
Like I think that's a normalpart of faith, is doubt Right
and that we go.
Am I really sure about this?
But you know, if it's a doubtabout whether or not Jesus
really is God, if he really diddie and rise again, but if it's
a doubt about whether or not hisdeath is sufficient to save you
(24:19):
, I think scripture answers that.
There should be no room fordoubt there.
Scripture says whoever believesshall not perish but have
eternal life.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
And 1 John 5, 13,.
I write these things to you whobelieve in the name of the son
of God that you may know youhave eternal life and I feel
like that's pretty clear.
He's writing it for the purpose, so you have assurance, so
you're not sitting there going.
I think I'm a nine.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
That's where I feel like Faith is the assurance of
things hoped for Hebrews 11.1.
There you go, so myencouragement to you would be
like man, I want you to be a 10.
Not because—.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Is it a choice?
What's that?
Is it a choice?
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Is what a choice?
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Is being a 10 a choice?
Yes, faith, full assured faithIs that a choice?
Speaker 3 (25:04):
Well, I would just say, if you start explaining why
you're a 9, I think that getsinto probably for you more of a
discipleship and doctrine issueof like what is it that, um,
that would bridge the gapbetween nine and ten?
Speaker 2 (25:18):
yeah, I mean, I have doubts.
You, you said, we all havedoubts, so doubts about what I
mean doubts that god is real.
No, we can.
I mean we can go.
Just you know, was jesusactually here back then?
Did that actually happen?
Yeah um, I feel like I can'tsay that a hundred percent.
So is that a choice to do that,or is that something on God's
(25:42):
end to give that to the person?
Speaker 1 (25:45):
That's a great question.
That is a great question.
Probably a little bit of both.
Yeah, the initial onset is likehe gives you the ability to
believe that and you're savedthrough that.
But then you're gonna gothrough in your sanctification
process probably ebbs and flows,but it's hard like this is
where you you know that you'resaved.
When you go, I rest my hope inthe resurrection, not in my own
(26:09):
ability to be good like.
That's probably the determinantfactor if you're saved or not.
Like when you're worshiping andyou're like man, I finally feel
relaxed because I'm good enough.
That is sort of a weird thingto be worshiping.
But if you just look at Jesusand you're like I am in the
presence of the Lord and I feelloved by Him, I don't know this
gets into feelings-basedassurance.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yeah, that's what I was going to say Scripture,
feelings-based assurance.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yeah, that's what I was going to say.
The scripture is clear that ifyou believe in the name of the
Son of God, if you believe inJesus, that you'll know you have
eternal life.
If you accept that, or if youconfess with your mouth that
Jesus is Lord and believe thatGod raised Him from the dead,
you will be saved.
And one of the things that,whenever I did prison ministry,
we said can you accept that Godraised him from the dead?
(26:56):
And how much belief do you need?
Is it a mustard seed of faith,or is it, like you know, granite
slab?
Amount of faith?
You know what is it, and Ithink that's the part where only
obviously God knows.
But you should have anassurance of your faith or there
should be this unbelievablesense of dread on your soul that
(27:18):
says what must I do to be saved, or a complete rejection of it.
It's hard to live in the Idon't know muddy middle, I guess
, of like am I really saved?
Speaker 3 (27:35):
what's important to understand is that the, the
bible, you know this, the, theteaching of scripture about
salvation, is not that like.
It's not like jesus, plussomething that you've done so
for you to understand that it'scompletely based on the finished
work of jesus means that ifjesus really is real and he
really is the son of god whodied and rose, Then you and you
believe in him, you're 10 out of10 getting saved.
It's it's so like for for somepeople it's like, well, it's a
(28:00):
nine, because I have good daysand bad days, and it's kind of
based on their own morality,their own good works or lack
thereof or something.
And so that's why I say theBible doesn't allow for that.
It's not like you believe inJesus and you lived this certain
way.
That kind of finishes up whatJesus started for you on the
cross.
But what you're saying is I'mnot sure that I really believe
(28:23):
Jesus is real.
I 90% do, but there's some dayswhere I'm not so sure, To which
I would say that's something Ithink just to ask the Lord for,
to increase your confidence inhim, to reveal himself to you.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Right, and maybe that one that's missing.
Chris, you said about feelingsand everything.
Maybe that's.
All it is is just thosefeelings that I have sometimes
because I'm more of a feeling.
I feel a lot.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
I'm with you on that, I understand.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Feelings aren't truth , though right, so maybe that's
why I feel that way.
As far'm with you on that.
I understand.
Feelings aren't truth, thoughright, so maybe that's why I
feel that way as far as a nineout of ten.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Well, our feelings are.
They're fickle, they can bealigned with truth, but they're
not always aligned with truth,Right?
So, like our feelings, we'resupposed to feel good things.
We're supposed to feel pleasureand feel, you know, we're
supposed to feel sadness at sadthings.
But sometimes we can like, if Ihave a bad day and I preach a
(29:22):
sermon and I feel like I didn'tdo a great job, right, Lead a
church event, and I felt like Iwasn't a good leader, or I lose
my temper with my wife or mychildren, I can start feeling
really down about myself.
And then that's when and thisis where the enemy, you know
Jesus called him a liar and amurderer from the beginning.
He's a liar.
He takes those feelings andtries to tell you that those are
true.
Yeah, you are.
(29:42):
You know why would you thinkyou're saved when you acted like
that?
Why would you think that Godloves you when you said that?
And so the enemy tries tocondemn I think, sometimes, when
our feelings are feeling downon ourself and we do start to
doubt, but that's where, I wouldsay, the scripture reminds us.
You know what?
I am a sinner and I did screwup and I did do all that, but
(30:04):
Jesus paid for it on the cross.
Well, like the scripture triesto encourage us back to 10 out
of 10, confidence and assuranceof things hoped for, even though
we do doubt.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Yeah, I like 2 Corinthians, 10, 5,.
We destroy arguments and everylofty opinion raised against the
knowledge of God and take everythought captive to obey Christ.
And I think, even in thosedoubts, it's like I take those
thoughts that are set up againstthe knowledge of God which he's
clearly given in his word, andthen I'm going to take my
thoughts captive to whenever thedarkness comes and says that
(30:36):
may not be true.
That's probably why you're amess, that's probably why none
of this is working for you andyou've got to sort of take
ownership of your faith in thosemoments and take that thought
captive, kind of to the point wewere talking about on a
previous podcast where, likebruce jenner took thought it
took, took, uh, his thoughtscaptive, going trans while he
(30:58):
had he was married and had kids.
It's it's like that, taking thethought captive, whatever it is
, that sets itself up againstthe knowledge of god, to remind
yourself no, I'm under thespirit's control and I'm not
gonna let satan, I'm not gonnalet my flesh, I'm not going to
let Satan, I'm not going to letmy flesh, I'm not going to let
the world heal me away fromChrist.
Yeah, that's a great discussion.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Yeah, the last part here, I think.
Just to get back to theoriginal question, I love how
you bring it always back.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah, I was waiting for this.
You're the second way back, youknow what, yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
So to take it back, you know where.
It says that God has appointedthe elect to glory and also the
means it goes on the rest ofmankind.
God was pleased according tothe unsearchable counsel of his
own will, whereby he extendethor withholdeth mercy as he
pleaseth.
You gotta love the iths hereFor the glory of his sovereign
(31:48):
power over his creatures to passby and to ordain them to
dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious
justice.
So Westminster Confession agreeswith what Paul says in Romans 9
, that at least one purpose wasto bring about the praise of
God's glorious justice and thepunishment of sin, that if no
(32:11):
one ever sinned, that therewould be no occasion for God's
justice Right and then that Godwould not be as glorified in
that way.
So that's at least one answer.
The other thing that youbrought up, I think maybe
another part of the answerhaving to do with our free will
and choosing God.
But ultimately I think, likethe good news of what that
(32:32):
person asked, is like one day wewill experience that you will,
that all who believe in Jesus wewill live in a redeemed new
creation where we fully pleaseGod forever, with no sin.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
And this time period will be seen so short in light
of eternity, and I think that'swhat's hard for people to wrap
their head around, which is whyGod is patient, not wanting
anyone to perish but all to cometo eternal life people to wrap
their head around, which is whyGod is patient, not wanting
anyone to perish but all to cometo eternal life.
And so it might feel like thisis an elongated period of time
where we're dealing with thewrath of man and the sin of
humanity and we have not fullybeen given over to Christ yet.
(33:05):
But ultimately, one day thatJesus will eradicate the evil of
man and doom that to, or damnit to hell, and then he'll
glorify himself by bringingthose whom he has saved into his
presence, where there'll be nosin, it'll be the, the perfect
royal city community, you knowand people will have different
roles and execute them perfectly, from the janitor to the mayor
(33:30):
or the king or whatever and whatwe see in part now.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
We'll see, you know imperfectionfection then yeah,
so things that we may not everfully.
It may just seem more like amystery now for the rest of our
lives, but we can trust thatwhen Jesus comes back and he
renews all things, we will beable to see, you know, with,
(33:53):
look back on this period of timeand all sin and all that stuff
and be able to understand, ohman, how much more glory God
receives because of it.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
All right, hey, thanks so much for watching.
If you got any questions, textthem at 737-231-0605 or go to
pastorplekcom and leave a notefor us there.
We'd love to hear from you.
We're talking currently on theSong of Solomon.
We're talking sex.
We're talking relationships.
We're talking marriage.
If you want to join in thatconversation, we would love to
answer your question.
(34:22):
Thanks so much for watchingFrom our house to yours.
Have an awesome week.
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