August 14, 2025 • 39 mins
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In today's episode we explore the dangers of neglecting our salvation and how to navigate cultural tensions as Christians in today's complex world.
• How spiritual and material worlds converge in our daily lives
• When we neglect our salvation, we miss seeing God at work around us
• The challenge of navigating the Ten Commandments in society
• The difference between accepting Jesus and truly following Him
• Addressing false converts in the church
• Understanding the biblical promise of a new heaven and new earth
• Why Christians believe in physical resurrection, not just spiritual existence
• How to disagree in love on secondary theological issues
Ready to join the conversation? Send your questions to 737-231-0605!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec, andjoining me in studios none
other than pastor holland, greghello and also john milton hello
, it's me yeah, it is john, so Iwant to do a quick couple
things today on the podcast.
One is apologize for my voicebut I think you guys can hang
with me, I can hang, hang withyou.
But I want to recap the sermonfrom Sunday.
(00:28):
We talked Hebrews 2, thesupremacy, the superiority of
our salvation in Jesus and weshould not neglect it.
And I kind of start off with,like the story of my old vintage
car that I drove in high schooland it broke down all the time.
Old vintage car that I drove inhigh school and it broke down
all the time partly because Idid dumb things like put sand in
(00:48):
the engine by accident.
And that never goes well foranyone.
In fact, it breaks down.
I made the comparison, though,if we don't maintain not that we
have to work to maintain oursalvation, but if we don't
invest in our salvation, if wedon't invest in it, then we
don't get the benefit of it.
In fact, our lives might breakdown, and that might be what God
(01:10):
wants exactly to happen.
And I kind of made the analogyof like my dad worked with me
for a long time to clean out, torebuild the entire engine after
I ruined it, and what Jesuswants to do is not just sit
there and go well, well, welland wag his finger at us, but to
work with us to restore us tothat joy of our salvation.
And so that's kind of where Iwent.
(01:32):
So anything that kind of stuckout to you from that, as I
talked about Jesus salvation isthrough Jesus' incarnation,
exaltation, Jesus is there was awarning against neglecting the
superior salvation and thenJesus is the merciful high
(01:52):
priest.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Anything that stuck out to you from Sunday yeah, for
sure that the notion ofcultivating and and nurturing
the salvation is way moremeaningful than what culture
wants us to do right, which isoh, did you go to church?
Did you get saved?
Box checked.
(02:13):
No more church needed.
And that, thankfully, like thechurch reinforces and the Bible,
of course, reinforces oftenlike you got to keep coming,
you're going to forget Right,right reinforces.
Often like, uh, you got to keepcoming, you're going to forget
right.
Right, you're gonna.
You're gonna remember that yoursalvation is in a closet in the
attic, covered in two boxes ofshoes, and that's where it
belongs.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
no, right, like it doesn't yeah, so for you, john,
as a fairly new Christian, cameto Christ at 35.
And so now, how have you seenthe like, how like do you ever
find yourself neglecting yoursalvation?
(02:53):
Or is that something that foryou, as a new Christian, you're
still on fire?
Or has there been periods of upand down?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Periods of up and down, for sure.
The really good part is whenyou're here regularly and you're
going to groups regularly,you'll.
This isn't good, right.
You'll see men who fall away.
You'll see men who stop showingup and if you're lucky, they
come back.
Sorry, if God's willing, theycome back and they go.
Oh man, I've been missing outand I get to.
(03:22):
I get to see the life ebb andflow of someone who didn't need
any more God and then realizethat was a foolish thing.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, tell me how you've seen that.
Tell me how you've seen theprogression of someone follow
Jesus and then fall off theplanet.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Sure, yeah, um, without dropping names, it was a
fellow who came to church, uh,was was really eager to to put
on the body and then, uh, thendisappeared for nine months or
not nine months, about nineweeks, I think and then, without
any biblical structure, he cameback letting us know like, hey,
he's getting in fights with thegirlfriend all the time, he's
(03:55):
getting in a fight with thelive-in son at the time.
And then he had a crisis and afriend told him, like you should
go to God in crisis.
It was following basically abreakup.
And he comes to the group andsees me glowing which I don't
know that I'm doing that becauseI'm busy being a Christian.
She got a glory all over you.
But he says, oh man, that guy'sgot something.
(04:19):
I'm like, yeah, you should stay.
I don't think I have anything,but you should stay.
It's weird to see that.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yeah it is weird and it's exciting to see God on the
move, and I think what happensand maybe and Han, you can speak
this as well is what happensfor Christians, is we don't see
God doing anything, and I knowthat sounds like almost
blasphemous.
We don't see it.
So, therefore, christianitybecomes stagnant, it becomes
(04:46):
boring, it becomes somethingthat is put in my attic
somewhere and I'll pull it outwhenever the crisis comes and I
need to be a prepper.
Tell me how you've sort of seenthat as well.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yeah, I think over the years of starting and I
became a Christian in collegeand you know, dealt with this
with friends who grew up inchurch and expressed similar
things and then, as I kind ofwent into ministry and you know,
you pastor people who saysimilar types of things of just
like I don't see howChristianity really intersects
(05:22):
with my real life or I don't seeGod really doing anything
special.
And the reality is you knowGod's at work and everything
that.
You know, everything we do.
We sang a song this morning10,000 reasons, um, you know,
like thinking about, uh, 10,000reasons that we have to bless
God.
And reality is that every timeyou, you think of something like
(05:43):
, okay, wow, god did this,there's 10,000 other things he
did that you're not even awareof.
He's always working, um, and thequestion is whether or not
we're aware of it.
And the more that you seek God,the more that you spend time
with him, I think, the more of asense of awareness you get of
how he is working, even in themundane things I think of.
When Jacob woke up from hisdream, you know, it says that he
(06:05):
realized God was in that placeand he became aware that God was
in that place.
And that happens, I think, ifyou don't nurture your salvation
through gratitude, throughpraying to God, through reading
his word, through gathering withother believers, if you neglect
(06:26):
it, then, yeah, you start tokind of forget and lose a sense
of awareness of how God ismoving all around you.
Yeah, can.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
I just say I think part of what contributed to this
is a false belief that this isa just a material world.
Here's what I mean by that.
Um, when I was young and I wasafraid of the dark, my mom would
say there's nothing to beafraid of, there's nothing there
.
She came from a materialistworldview and I was scared of I
(06:56):
don't know Freddy or whateverdark evil thing was there, and
it was very helpful for a smallchild to not believe in anything
that was spiritual but alsoprevented an understanding that
the material and spiritual worldconverge all the time.
And I think in latter days wekind of went to it's not all
(07:18):
material, it's kind of likethere is no, it's all ethereal,
it's all spiritual.
And there is no, it's allethereal, it's all spiritual and
there is no right or wrong.
I think that's the otherflip-flop of materialism to
complete spiritualism.
And spiritualism is whatever youwant it to be and what I love
about God and hopefully I canland the plan where I'm going
with this but he is material,that's what Jesus is, has a body
(07:41):
and yet he's fully spirit.
That's what he brings those twotogether and then you start to
interact.
We are interacting in a body,material world, but the
spiritual is always happeningand I think if we're asking
Jesus to operate through us, heis going to provide
opportunities for kingdom topresent itself, the spiritual
and material to manifest in one,and that's where the prayers
(08:03):
are answered, that's wherekingdom comes, that's where his
will is done on earth as is inheaven, and I think that's part
of our salvation that we neglectthat we have access to the God
of all creation that we can havea relationship with in the here
and now, that can interact withmaterial things from a
spiritual perspective andtransform life.
(08:24):
Anyway, I get excited aboutthat because I think that's the
neglected part, where we don'tlike to talk about demons and
devils and angels, um, because,especially in an academic or a
intellectual setting, it makesyou look like a fool.
But I think the true foolishthing is to say that stuff isn't
happening, that's not going onand there isn't a way to
(08:45):
interact with the God of theages today.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Yeah, amen, yeah.
Screw tape letters is a goodexample of how you should not
ignore everything the devil willdo to trick you.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Exactly All right.
So, speaking of that, let'stalk about how the spiritual and
material kind of connect.
We got a question from one ofour faithful listeners and this
person says I'm struggling as ateacher on how to respond when I
hear people complain about theTen Commandments being posted in
(09:15):
the classroom.
I agree wholeheartedly.
The schools need the content ofthe Ten Commandments, but I
also hate to see teacherscomplaining and disrespecting
and refusing to put them up.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
How do I respond to their frustration.
It's a good question, it's agreat question, I think so.
Just the initial thought for meis like I think people assume
that you can somehow have a kindof neutral space that, um, you
don't have one religion or oneset of morals.
(09:49):
It's just kind of a neutral,secular space.
And that's how America shouldbe, it's how the classroom and
government should be, and so toput the 10 commandments in a
classroom is like oh, you'repreferring your religion over
other people and you're addingyour morals here.
We just need to have a neutralspace, right?
I think that's kind of like theprevailing opposition to it.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Right now the cultural thought is I, I mean,
and for many years I'd saychristians probably were in this
space.
But as things got sort ofcrazier with like we didn't even
know what gender was, uh, wesort of said we need to figure
out what is a baseline.
And so now christians inpolitics have said I want to put
(10:35):
the Ten Commandments in everyclassroom as a moral.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
And this is not a new idea.
This is like what people saidwhen America was founded and was
a norm for a long time, and thereality is though it's a lie
that neutral spaces exist.
There's no such thing.
Every society is built on somekind of shared moral framework.
It's not whether or not there'sa moral framework.
(11:03):
The question is which moralframework, and if it's going to
be an atheistic, secular moralframework, then it's just
whatever who's in power,whatever they decide is right or
wrong.
And so what should we?
So you know, to answer thequestion, what do I do when
people are frustrated?
Uh, man, it's going to be sometough conversations.
You're going to need a lot ofpatience and self-control, but
if you can, slowly and gentlyand lovingly um, you can still
(11:27):
be gentle and bold at the sametime, I think but kind of move
things in the direction ofhelping people understand
there's no such thing as aneutral space.
Yeah, um, we do need to havemorals here.
We, we do need to be able to.
You know, schools originallyexisted to teach virtue, right,
um, not just you knowinformation and facts.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
I want to explain.
There's no neutral space.
In other words, laws government, if you want to are inherently
moral.
They are inherently moral.
It's just whose morals are they?
So when people say stoplegislating morality, it is
impossible because alllegislation is a form of
morality.
(12:06):
So let's get into that.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
And the Ten Commandments are the summary of
God's moral law and thereforethe very good thing to have that
be a shared morality forschools.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
So when somebody says hey, listen, I'm Muslim, why
are you putting on your TenCommandments, which probably
Muslims wouldn't have that muchissue with?
But how about I'm atheist?
Why are you putting these TenCommandments on me?
I don't believe in God.
So the commandment number one Iam violating right now and I
don't care, and I will put upgraven images all over the place
(12:41):
and I will take the Lord's namein vain because I can.
How do we respond to that in agentle but loving way that says
hey, the content of this isn'tactually what your problem is.
Your problem is is you want tobe God?
Is that fair?
(13:02):
Do you have something, john?
Speaker 2 (13:06):
That's a tactic to take.
It can't begin and end withthat.
It would have to probably beginwith hey, we should get lunch,
and I want to know all aboutwhere that's coming from.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
Yeah, right, yeah, I mean a lot of times when people
came to Jesus with theirfrustrations, he didn't just
answer their questions, he askedhis own questions.
Right, you know, and helpedkind of dig up, take me through
that.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
So if I said to you I'm like this is ridiculous, I
mean, stop putting your religionon me.
And then you take me to lunch,I'm like, okay, let me have it.
Okay, christian nationalist,tell me why?
Um, I should be on board withyour Christian nationalism and
you want to put your impose yourreligion in my classroom?
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Yeah, you can start with man, tell me why.
Why does that frustrate you?
Why, you know?
Why is this something that youare so angry about?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
and I would say because I don't want to be
forced to believe something thatI don't believe, because part
of what's being american isfreedom of religion and I, or in
my case, freedom from religionthere you go, a lot of go, go a
lot of different directions withthis one way you can go, okay,
hey, um, you know there might be10 different religions, you
(14:13):
know that.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Come into this classroom.
Um, there's got to be someagreed upon right and wrong to
have order, to have peace.
There's got to be a code ofconduct if we're going to have
an orderly, you know classroomin here.
So whose code of conduct do youthink should be in charge?
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Yeah, and that's where I'm like well, why don't
we?
We could just take some of alittle bit of everybody.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Yeah, and then you, okay, let's, let's, um, tease
that out.
What would that look like?
And I think, when you can askquestions, reality is um, if you
start walking down that path,very quickly it devolves into
like wait a second, this isimpossible to do.
It is impossible.
It's impossible to do withoutexcluding someone, um, or
without preferring one set ofvalues over another.
(14:58):
At the end of the day, ifyou're going to have a code of
conduct, then this is what aculture is.
This is how you get values.
This is how you get someone isgoing to decide these things are
okay and these things are not.
We have blasphemy laws rightnow.
They're just not.
You can say certain things andthere are some things that, if
you say, you'll get canceled.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Like fire in theater, or like if you make a racist
comment or whatever, which isprobably a good thing to get
canceled over.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Yeah, there are things that if you say this,
people are going to go.
You know we'll never give you ajob here, Right.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Something like that Right.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
So you know some form , not you know technical
blasphemy laws, but you knowwhat I mean.
Yeah, no matter what you'regoing to have to decide, these
things are allowed and thesethings aren't.
And so when you ask them thequestion who should get to
decide that and why, and whatshould it be, you turn around
and they don't have an answer.
I don't know.
And then you can go well, ok,you know, it makes sense.
(15:52):
Here's why it makes sense forit to be the Ten Commandments.
This country was founded as aProtestant Christian nation.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
I think the Ten Commandments are on the Supreme
Court, right On the building.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
And then, well, that violates the First Amendment,
right, Freedom of assembly andyou go, well, okay, let's talk
about that, and you can,depending on how many lunches
they want to have, how manycoffees they want to have, how
much they really.
It could be a really fruitfulconversation.
Or it could be like, yeah, man,that's crazy, and you just move
on because you're not going toget anywhere with them.
(16:21):
Um, but if someone really wantsto go down that road, you can
go.
Well, man, from the beginning.
Uh, talk about Noah Webster andhow he wanted every kid to
learn to read the Bible and howpublic schools need to teach the
Bible.
Back at you know, the foundingof the country, how freedom of
religion originally did not meanyou can worship any God you
(16:42):
want.
It meant you can worship theChristian God as a Baptist or a
Presbyterian or you know.
You can according to yourconscience, without the
government interfering in yourworship of the Christian God.
Freedom of religion was aChristian doctrine.
Christian liberty came out ofthe Protestant Reformation
(17:02):
Separation of church and state.
That idea was to preventgovernment overreach.
None of this stuff was meant totry to keep Christianity out of
institutions, out of politics,out of the public square and so
if you want to go into someAmerican history and church
history but a lot of peopledon't want to really go into all
(17:23):
that, they're just mad and theywant to vent and sometimes
maybe the best thing you can dois go.
I'm sorry that soundsfrustrating.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
And then share the gospel with them.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
So Andy Stanley criticized this law by saying
what should be on the walls isthis treat others the way you
would want to be treated, jesus.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Christ.
That was on a big banner in myelementary school when I was in
like first grade.
Yeah, the golden rule, goldenrule.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
That's what he advocated instead of the Ten
Commandments, because the TenCommandments advocates law,
whereas I guess this is still alaw, right, I'm not sure where
what is, but he wanted Jesus'name on there, and he wanted the
golden rule, which I beforethat too, I haven't either one
would be I'd be excited about.
Yeah, I say put it all up there.
Yeah, yeah, I say put it all upthere, yeah.
(18:15):
So what do you think?
But when you hear thatcriticism of him saying like,
don't reflect a Jewishperspective, you should reflect
a Christian perspective, if thisnation is a Christian nation.
What do you mean a Jewishperspective?
So like, obviously that'sChristian right, but the Jews,
if you're Jewish, you would saythat's the ten commandments as
(18:35):
specific to jewish context, andchristians are free from that
law as we're forgiven by it.
I don't know, that's what Ithink his, that's where he's
going with.
Why go and escalate or elevate?
So we're not as opposed?
Speaker 3 (18:45):
to new.
I see, I see, okay, so to me,yeah, I think andy stanley has
some major theological problemswe've talked about this in that
he wants to he said explicitlydetach unhitch from the Old
Testament.
And he, you know, there's somemajor problems because as
Christians, we are set free fromthe law in terms of, um, uh,
(19:07):
the old, we're not under the oldcovenant, right, we're not
under law in terms of we achievesalvation by obeying God's law.
Rather, we receive salvation byfaith in Jesus Christ.
But God's moral law is stillbinding on us.
It's still binding.
And you see that in the NewTestament, when we're commanded
to worship God, paul in Romanssays he brings up the second
(19:28):
table, so that the two tables ofthe Ten Commandments, the first
four commandments, summarizedby how you love God, the second
six, the next six commandmentson how you love your neighbor,
right, two tables of law, secondtable of law, paul.
Paul repeats those things inthe book of Romans, saying, um,
that by loving your neighbor youfulfill the law.
Um, and you know he, he says,yeah, you shouldn't murder, you
(19:51):
shouldn't commit adultery.
So the moral law is stillbinding on us.
That's a perpetual law.
We're not saved by obedience toit, but we're still called to
walk in it and obey it yeah, oneof the things I always like to
say is Christian.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Yeah, jesus fulfilled the ceremonial law so that he
is able to forgive the moral lawhow we've broken it, how we've
broken it, and then we'reallowing us to live under any
civil law, displaying thekingdom of God wherever we're at
.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
So we're not free as Christians to like, oh sweet,
I'm free, now I can go murderpeople and commit adultery and
covet, and nobody would say that, right, yeah, we're free from
the penalty of that because ofJesus and we're freed from sin.
We're not slaves to sin.
We're free to obey the morallaw.
We are set free by the power ofthe Holy Spirit to actually
(20:38):
walk in obedience to the law, byloving God and loving our
neighbors.
Um so yeah.
With that, I'd say the 10commandments are Christian.
Um and uh, they're good,they're God's moral law and it's
, it should be, the shared moralframework that we have for a, a
good institution, a goodclassroom, a good society.
There's got to be some moralframework.
(21:00):
Which one should we pick?
I think the one that God cameup with.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Nice Sure, I agree.
Any other thoughts on thatthere, john?
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yeah, it's really good to start at the Ten
Commandments too, because thisis the beginning of something
that could build to somethinggreater, right?
Uh, but it it's.
It's really hard to look atthose ten commandments and go I
don't like that one.
I can't, unless I'm outingmyself as someone who loves
(21:27):
anarchy and you shouldn't electme.
If I do, then I should be onboard with that list.
Yeah, right, and that's a goodcheck.
Like forget the christianitypart, forget.
Just look at the paper and thensay I mean, I like what it says
.
It's not like where it comesfrom.
Well, just just just like whatit says first, and then we can
talk about the rest of it andhow it applies and also won't
(21:49):
get tricked.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Yeah, on that note.
Um, so that doesn't mean, hey,we're gonna force everyone in
this classroom to be a christ.
You can't do that.
You can't force faith.
What you can do is say we'regoing to look to this standard
for our morals and if you're anatheist, you're a Muslim.
Just expect like that.
(22:11):
This is the standard that we'regoing to conduct ourselves by
in this classroom and you needto be mindful and respectful of
that.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Nice, okay, so let's move on from that to this next
question.
This question asker sent inthis video of Ray Comfort.
Let's give it a watch, allright, that was a great video.
Now, what I want to talk about,though, the question says what
are your guys' thoughts on thechurch?
(22:38):
Does the church have falseconverts?
So, ray brought up like, theproblem with the church today is
a lot of people ask Jesus intotheir heart, but those aren't
real salvations, and what youneed to do is you need to ask
people to repent.
So when you think about thatafter watching that video, john,
what's your take on that?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
My take is going to start with my personal
experience.
First, when I got baptized here, I definitely knew that I
needed it, but I couldn'tarticulate why and I was still a
slave to sin in some respects,okay, but it made the church
completely irresistible to me.
It made God's people like, ohman, not only do they want to
(23:22):
like talk theology, they're onboard with this forgiveness
stuff.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Okay, so hold on, let's talk.
So what did you receive Jesusinto your heart?
How did you become a Christian?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
It was late one night and I was in bed talking to
Jesus going.
Look God, I don't know how thisworks.
I guess I surrender you.
I'm waiting to see what you'regoing to do with me, but I'm
only leaving the door open acrack.
Let's do this.
And then, because I don't likebeing theatrical or being like a
tension guy, I said I'm notgoing to tell anybody.
They have to ask me directly.
And of course you are invasiveand you asked me at the man
(23:58):
group hey, so have you acceptedJesus yet?
And I said yeah.
And you went so yeah, thathappened.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Okay, that's good.
So so this is where I don'tknow and maybe this is maybe my
critique of Ray Comfort is he'sold Meaning.
I don't know if people aresaying you need to accept Jesus
in your heart anymore, because Ithink he was criticizing Bill
Bright's.
God has a wonderful plan foryour life, you know, you just
need to check it out, and maybethat is.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
It's alive and well today.
I just I would say, like inevery year when we go on family
vacation in the summer, uh, wevisit a church wherever we are,
you know and so every year forthe this is um going on 13 years
now since, uh, jenny and I gotmarried, um that we have visited
a different church in adifferent town, wherever we're
staying, and man, uh, maybe oneor two of these churches we came
(24:50):
back from was like that wasawesome and the rest is we we
have visited so many that we'vebeen like now that was a watered
down, easy believe um eitherthe borderline, heretical, or
just so like seeker, sensitive,where, hey, just you know, um,
just come back and we've got agreat kids ministry and we've
(25:10):
got a gift for you and just youknow it's okay, jesus loves you
just like you are and you knowthat's great.
Kids ministry is great, visitorgifts are great.
Jesus does love you.
But it kind of stopped there.
I cannot tell you if one of themaybe, like I said, one or two
of those churches actually saidyou need to repent from your sin
and put your faith in JesusChrist.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
That was just Okay, faith in Jesus Christ.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
That was just okay, maybe I'm just you know what
happens is you get stuck in yourown world.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, and soyou don't see that there's other
means I think there's a lot ofit still going on out there.
I so one thought I had one.
Where does the like acceptJesus in your heart?
Stuff come from?
Like?
Is that even in the Bible?
Um, I think of John, chapterone, where it says says to all
who did receive him, so Jesuscame to his own.
(25:56):
His own people did not receivehim, but to all who did receive
him, who believed in his name,he gave the right to become
children of God.
So there's receiving Jesus.
Then you got Romans 10, 9.
Yeah, 10, 9.
Confess with your mouth Jesusis Lord and believe in your
heart that God raised him fromthe dead, you'll be saved.
So there's a receiving of Jesus, there's a believing in your
(26:16):
heart.
So I'm like I don't think thatlanguage is horrible, but I also
think you do need to callpeople to repent A hundred
percent.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
What about Revelation 3.20, which is not an
evangelism verse, but it can beused as one?
I stand at the door and knock,and if anyone would open the
door for me, he will look, Iwill come in and sup with him or
eat with him.
And I think he's talking aboutdoor of your heart, right?
I mean, he's not literallysaying we're gonna have dinner
together.
So there is some spiritualconnection of let me in, yeah.
And so I don't think theverbiage is wrong.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
However, by itself, if you don't ever bring in
repentance, I would say he's gota point.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Yeah, this is where maybe I'm just the part the
problem I have.
I love I use his technique oflike bring up the law.
Yeah, I love bring up the lawand say have you broken the law?
Well, you're a sinner.
If you've lied once, you're aliar.
If you've hated, jesus saysyou've committed murder.
If you've lusted, you're anadulterer.
I love going that route when itcomes to evangelism because it
(27:13):
makes it clear.
However, I don't want to startputting any doubts in people's
salvation that they aren'treally saved because they
accepted Jesus in their heart.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
I think, JD Greer had a book called.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Stop Accepting Jesus Into your Heart, or something
like that.
I was like I think you go toofar Jesus into your heart, or
something like that.
And I was like.
I was like I think you go toofar, like I think you want to.
You're so wanting to make apoint.
It's about the.
You know, the gospel isn'taccepting Jesus in your heart.
It's about the death, burial,resurrection of Christ and him
saying repent, for the kingdomof God is near and you believing
in what he did for you toforgive you of your sin.
Yeah, so in.
(27:58):
In some ways, I think it'sconfusing to kind of challenge
people like you're not a realChristian.
In other ways, I think it'snecessary to have someone say
hey, check your heart.
Sounds like an old school term.
Check your heart to see if youreally and truly are saved, that
you believe that you're asinner, that Jesus' death on the
cross for your sins.
There was a great exchange.
He took your sins and he gaveyou new life and he calls you to
live a new life by the power ofthe Holy Spirit.
(28:20):
Whenever I lead someone toChrist, I usually like to say in
the sinner's prayer I love thesinner's prayer.
I'm not thumbs down on thesinner's prayer, but I ask the
Holy Spirit to come into theirheart and make them the person
that they're supposed to be and,by believing that Jesus died
for their sins, rose from thedead.
Now the Holy Spirit comes inand challenges them to live a
new way.
I don't know, Maybe I'm insemantic world, but I feel like
(28:47):
and maybe Ray is just making apoint that we need to really
challenge people to Jesus'lordship.
That's not what saves you, butthat's what you're called to.
Does that make sense?
I don't know, Sure.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Yeah, I just think, I think to answer the question
are there false converts in thechurch?
Yeah there always has been.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
And I think that's biblical the wheat and the tare
is going to grow together.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Oh, yeah, and you don't.
Only God knows someone's heart.
All we can judge is someone'sconfession of faith and the
fruit that we see in their life.
Um and so when we do membershipinterviews, you know, like we
don't have some device that canyou know, see if someone is a?
real Christian um but when thefruit of someone's life is that
(29:29):
they are not repenting from sinbut they're calling themselves a
Christian and you have aresponsibility to call that out
and every church is going todeal with that.
There's lots of warnings aboutthat in the scripture.
But I think kind of his pointis you can open the door for a
(29:52):
flood of false converts by acertain way of preaching which
is never calling people toactually repent.
So then you have a bunch ofpeople that love Christianity
and you have whole churches andmovements and denominations that
go apostate Right, Because itwas never about repenting from
your sin, it was just aboutJesus loves me and he loves me
just as I am and therefore Idon't need to change anything
(30:13):
about my life.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
It's the comfort without the cross.
Because I do think Jesus doessay come to me.
All you are weary and heavyladen, I will give you rest.
But then he also says if anyonewould come after me, he must
deny himself.
Take up his cross and follow me.
And you're like?
Which one is it?
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Oh, it's both yeah, exactly, Come to me and let's go
.
Yeah, and I'll give you rest,and you know it's going to cost
you everything.
And those are both true.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
All right, here we go .
Next question.
Good morning, I'm a born-againChristian and I have a question.
In the Bible, revelation 21,verses, 1 through 4.
I need someone to go look thatup.
It is stated that there will bea new heaven and a new earth.
My question is will there be anew physical heaven and earth?
(30:59):
Or, because I'm a believer ofJesus Christ and have the Holy
Spirit in me, the earth aroundme is new to me, since I have
the Holy Spirit.
I'm a 28-year-old woman doingBible study with my 52-year-old
mom and we have different viewson the scripture, so we need
clarification.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
That's so sweet doing Bible study with your mom.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
I love that too.
That's great.
I'm pretty.
First of all way to go 28 yearold person having doing Bible
study with your 52 year old momFirst off way to go.
But your first thought on thatHolland.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Yes, it is an actual new creation.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
It's not a symbolic interpretation of Revelation.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Are we going to sneak in some other conversations
here?
Yes, I believe that Revelationhas literal and symbolic aspects
to it aspects to it, and thereis a promise of a new creation
in that, in the same way thatJesus, in a similar way that
(32:08):
Jesus had a resurrected,glorified body, we have this
promise that we too will beresurrected and glorified, and
that the whole earth Romans 8speaks about this as well the
earth groaning awaiting thereturn of Jesus, where he makes
everything new.
And so, yes, I believe thatthat's referring to an actual
renewed creation.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
I agree with that.
So I think what gets confusingand this depends on your
eschatological view I think thatthere is a millennial kingdom
and then there is the new heavenand new earth.
So the millennial kingdom isthe kingdom of God, where Jesus
is enthroned for a thousandyears, which, holland, I think
you take that as figurative.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
No, okay.
So it's a thousand years.
He's on his throne right now inheaven, reigning over all
things, right.
So that's not thousand years.
He's on his throne right now inheaven, reigning over all
things, right.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
That's not figurative , that's literal.
All right, okay, I take it.
My literal view is that therewill be a time, the rapture,
when the Christians are takenaway, and that's kind of the
left behind series.
And then there are theseven-year period of tribulation
.
First three and a half yearsare pretty great.
The last three and a half yearsare pretty great.
The last three and a half yearsare just awful and torturous
for all of humanity, whichChristians will have to
experience, except for the newbelievers who become believers
(33:17):
during the tribulation.
But then, when Jesus comes backat the end of the tribulation,
he'll start his thousand yearreign, whereas Holland calls
that thousand year reign rightnow, where Jesus is on the
throne right now.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
And we disagree on that eschatological preference
Three millenn remillennial foryou, amillennial for me, right
tertiary issue in the church,it's okay we disagree.
Chris gets to have the officialidea.
I get the official positionbecause I it's.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Yeah, I love that anyway.
So, but but the reality is weboth believe that eventually,
after the millennial kingdom, anew heaven and new earth will
come down, or a new heaven and anew earth.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
A new Jerusalem comes down from heaven is what it
says.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the
first heaven and the first earthhad passed away and the sea was
no more, and I saw the holycity, new Jerusalem, coming down
out of heaven, prepared as abride adorned for her husband,
and so I would take that as anactual new thing, a new heaven,
new earth.
But I can see, if you are goingfrom a millennial kingdom
(34:22):
perspective, that it's going tobe this earth and heaven on
earth, so to speak, becauseJesus is ruling here, that would
be yes, and then yes later, butyou would take it too.
Is that actual new city kind ofcomes down and we all dwell in
it together with Jesus?
Speaker 3 (34:40):
Yeah, so where we both agree is that at the return
of Jesus at some point we mightdisagree on the exact timeline,
but where we would both agree,where pretty much all Christians
have agreed, is that eventuallyJesus will come back to judge
(35:00):
the living and the dead, andthen the first heaven and earth
will pass away and there will bea new heaven and earth where we
live forever with God in hispresence, with glorified bodies,
where there will be no more sin, all the brokenness of creation
will be healed, everything willbe made new.
(35:21):
And that's the great hope thatwe have and there's total
agreement there A hundredpercent, yeah, and it's a
physical.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
This is why I love about at the very beginning
podcast talking about thephysical and spiritual
manifesting in in moments,whereas there you have the
physical and spiritual realizedtogether.
It's completely spiritual, butit's also completely physical.
You will have an actual body.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Yeah, so a lot, you know.
Sometimes you get the idea thatjust like the end of
Christianity is being a spiritin heaven, you know kind of
popularized by movies or TVshows, paintings over the years
and stuff like that, where yousee people just kind of floating
in heaven playing harps andstuff like that.
But the promise, the real, truehope of Christianity is not
(36:03):
being a spirit in heaven forever.
That's called theological term,is the intermediary state, in
that it's not the final state.
The final state is that we will, our spirits will be rejoined
with a physical body in theresurrection and we'll live
forever in an actual physicalbody, in a physical earth, but
(36:24):
that is remade, renewed, freefrom sin and corruption.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
All right.
So here's why.
What's interesting is, I wonder, as they were talking, I wonder
if this was an argument or ifthis was a you know, is this
something they're dividing overor like having real conflict
over?
I hope it's not, because thisis one of those tertiary views,
(36:52):
but I think you can agree, weall agree, that you will one day
have a physical body, and I andI think the new heaven, new
earth thing, that's pretty muchuniversally accepted, right.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
Uh, yeah, I mean, go to like the apostles creed.
When you go, what?
What do we confess?
What do we believe?
Um, that, uh, Jesus will comeagain to judge the quick and the
dead.
Right, so he's coming back tojudge the world.
And then it says we believe inthe resurrection of the dead,
and so we believe in a physicalresurrection and to live in a
(37:24):
renewed physical world.
And that's standard Christiandoctrine.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Yeah Well hey, if you have any further questions,
please let us know.
We'd love to hear from you.
It's an exciting thing to kindof walk through just the truth
here.
Any other thoughts on that?
And when you heard thatquestion, john, does that make
you go?
Why would you ask that?
Or?
Speaker 2 (37:45):
what are your thoughts there, my thoughts when
it comes to this kind ofexplanation.
I like to come back to thethree S's Is it a sin issue, a
salvation issue or a sovereigntyissue?
Is Is it a sin issue, asalvation issue or a sovereignty
issue?
And if it's none of those three, then it's an excellent
discussion medium.
But it isn't grounds forargument or death, right, it's
grounds for like.
Well, what can we piecetogether?
(38:06):
And as long as we don't breakthe rest of scripture, which is,
it's entertaining.
For me it's a thoughtexperiment, as long as we've got
it within the cage and confinesof like let's not disobey God,
but they're theorizing it's,it's.
It is a.
It is a way to flex yourspiritual juices and cultivate a
(38:29):
framework without honestly with.
One of the nicest places thateven scientists will agree is
that we can admit we don't knowyeah it is so freeing to be in
an environment where you know Ican't be sure, but maybe it's
nice if it was this without.
(38:49):
What a blessing to have anenvironment to disagree in love
and not the commonplace culturalway which is if you disagree
with me, I will unfriend you.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Hey, I love that.
Hey, thanks so much forwatching.
If you want to jump in theconversation, you can text us
737-231-0605.
We would love to hear from you.
It is like our passion toanswer questions and help take
faith from something that's justcompletely ethereal to
something that's not justspiritual but also affects the
material.
Hey, thanks so much forwatching From our house to yours
(39:26):
.
Have an awesome week of worship.
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec, andjoining me in studios none
other than pastor holland, greghello and also john milton hello
, it's me yeah, it is john, so Iwant to do a quick couple
things today on the podcast.
One is apologize for my voicebut I think you guys can hang
with me, I can hang, hang withyou.
But I want to recap the sermonfrom Sunday.
(00:28):
We talked Hebrews 2, thesupremacy, the superiority of
our salvation in Jesus and weshould not neglect it.
And I kind of start off with,like the story of my old vintage
car that I drove in high schooland it broke down all the time.
Old vintage car that I drove inhigh school and it broke down
all the time partly because Idid dumb things like put sand in
(00:48):
the engine by accident.
And that never goes well foranyone.
In fact, it breaks down.
I made the comparison, though,if we don't maintain not that we
have to work to maintain oursalvation, but if we don't
invest in our salvation, if wedon't invest in it, then we
don't get the benefit of it.
In fact, our lives might breakdown, and that might be what God
(01:10):
wants exactly to happen.
And I kind of made the analogyof like my dad worked with me
for a long time to clean out, torebuild the entire engine after
I ruined it, and what Jesuswants to do is not just sit
there and go well, well, welland wag his finger at us, but to
work with us to restore us tothat joy of our salvation.
And so that's kind of where Iwent.
(01:32):
So anything that kind of stuckout to you from that, as I
talked about Jesus salvation isthrough Jesus' incarnation,
exaltation, Jesus is there was awarning against neglecting the
superior salvation and thenJesus is the merciful high
(01:52):
priest.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Anything that stuck out to you from Sunday yeah, for
sure that the notion ofcultivating and and nurturing
the salvation is way moremeaningful than what culture
wants us to do right, which isoh, did you go to church?
Did you get saved?
Box checked.
(02:13):
No more church needed.
And that, thankfully, like thechurch reinforces and the Bible,
of course, reinforces oftenlike you got to keep coming,
you're going to forget Right,right reinforces.
Often like, uh, you got to keepcoming, you're going to forget
right.
Right, you're gonna.
You're gonna remember that yoursalvation is in a closet in the
attic, covered in two boxes ofshoes, and that's where it
belongs.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
no, right, like it doesn't yeah, so for you, john,
as a fairly new Christian, cameto Christ at 35.
And so now, how have you seenthe like, how like do you ever
find yourself neglecting yoursalvation?
(02:53):
Or is that something that foryou, as a new Christian, you're
still on fire?
Or has there been periods of upand down?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Periods of up and down, for sure.
The really good part is whenyou're here regularly and you're
going to groups regularly,you'll.
This isn't good, right.
You'll see men who fall away.
You'll see men who stop showingup and if you're lucky, they
come back.
Sorry, if God's willing, theycome back and they go.
Oh man, I've been missing outand I get to.
(03:22):
I get to see the life ebb andflow of someone who didn't need
any more God and then realizethat was a foolish thing.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, tell me how you've seen that.
Tell me how you've seen theprogression of someone follow
Jesus and then fall off theplanet.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Sure, yeah, um, without dropping names, it was a
fellow who came to church, uh,was was really eager to to put
on the body and then, uh, thendisappeared for nine months or
not nine months, about nineweeks, I think and then, without
any biblical structure, he cameback letting us know like, hey,
he's getting in fights with thegirlfriend all the time, he's
(03:55):
getting in a fight with thelive-in son at the time.
And then he had a crisis and afriend told him, like you should
go to God in crisis.
It was following basically abreakup.
And he comes to the group andsees me glowing which I don't
know that I'm doing that becauseI'm busy being a Christian.
She got a glory all over you.
But he says, oh man, that guy'sgot something.
(04:19):
I'm like, yeah, you should stay.
I don't think I have anything,but you should stay.
It's weird to see that.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yeah it is weird and it's exciting to see God on the
move, and I think what happensand maybe and Han, you can speak
this as well is what happensfor Christians, is we don't see
God doing anything, and I knowthat sounds like almost
blasphemous.
We don't see it.
So, therefore, christianitybecomes stagnant, it becomes
(04:46):
boring, it becomes somethingthat is put in my attic
somewhere and I'll pull it outwhenever the crisis comes and I
need to be a prepper.
Tell me how you've sort of seenthat as well.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yeah, I think over the years of starting and I
became a Christian in collegeand you know, dealt with this
with friends who grew up inchurch and expressed similar
things and then, as I kind ofwent into ministry and you know,
you pastor people who saysimilar types of things of just
like I don't see howChristianity really intersects
(05:22):
with my real life or I don't seeGod really doing anything
special.
And the reality is you knowGod's at work and everything
that.
You know, everything we do.
We sang a song this morning10,000 reasons, um, you know,
like thinking about, uh, 10,000reasons that we have to bless
God.
And reality is that every timeyou, you think of something like
(05:43):
, okay, wow, god did this,there's 10,000 other things he
did that you're not even awareof.
He's always working, um, and thequestion is whether or not
we're aware of it.
And the more that you seek God,the more that you spend time
with him, I think, the more of asense of awareness you get of
how he is working, even in themundane things I think of.
When Jacob woke up from hisdream, you know, it says that he
(06:05):
realized God was in that placeand he became aware that God was
in that place.
And that happens, I think, ifyou don't nurture your salvation
through gratitude, throughpraying to God, through reading
his word, through gathering withother believers, if you neglect
(06:26):
it, then, yeah, you start tokind of forget and lose a sense
of awareness of how God ismoving all around you.
Yeah, can.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
I just say I think part of what contributed to this
is a false belief that this isa just a material world.
Here's what I mean by that.
Um, when I was young and I wasafraid of the dark, my mom would
say there's nothing to beafraid of, there's nothing there
.
She came from a materialistworldview and I was scared of I
(06:56):
don't know Freddy or whateverdark evil thing was there, and
it was very helpful for a smallchild to not believe in anything
that was spiritual but alsoprevented an understanding that
the material and spiritual worldconverge all the time.
And I think in latter days wekind of went to it's not all
(07:18):
material, it's kind of likethere is no, it's all ethereal,
it's all spiritual.
And there is no, it's allethereal, it's all spiritual and
there is no right or wrong.
I think that's the otherflip-flop of materialism to
complete spiritualism.
And spiritualism is whatever youwant it to be and what I love
about God and hopefully I canland the plan where I'm going
with this but he is material,that's what Jesus is, has a body
(07:41):
and yet he's fully spirit.
That's what he brings those twotogether and then you start to
interact.
We are interacting in a body,material world, but the
spiritual is always happeningand I think if we're asking
Jesus to operate through us, heis going to provide
opportunities for kingdom topresent itself, the spiritual
and material to manifest in one,and that's where the prayers
(08:03):
are answered, that's wherekingdom comes, that's where his
will is done on earth as is inheaven, and I think that's part
of our salvation that we neglectthat we have access to the God
of all creation that we can havea relationship with in the here
and now, that can interact withmaterial things from a
spiritual perspective andtransform life.
(08:24):
Anyway, I get excited aboutthat because I think that's the
neglected part, where we don'tlike to talk about demons and
devils and angels, um, because,especially in an academic or a
intellectual setting, it makesyou look like a fool.
But I think the true foolishthing is to say that stuff isn't
happening, that's not going onand there isn't a way to
(08:45):
interact with the God of theages today.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Yeah, amen, yeah.
Screw tape letters is a goodexample of how you should not
ignore everything the devil willdo to trick you.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Exactly All right.
So, speaking of that, let'stalk about how the spiritual and
material kind of connect.
We got a question from one ofour faithful listeners and this
person says I'm struggling as ateacher on how to respond when I
hear people complain about theTen Commandments being posted in
(09:15):
the classroom.
I agree wholeheartedly.
The schools need the content ofthe Ten Commandments, but I
also hate to see teacherscomplaining and disrespecting
and refusing to put them up.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
How do I respond to their frustration.
It's a good question, it's agreat question, I think so.
Just the initial thought for meis like I think people assume
that you can somehow have a kindof neutral space that, um, you
don't have one religion or oneset of morals.
(09:49):
It's just kind of a neutral,secular space.
And that's how America shouldbe, it's how the classroom and
government should be, and so toput the 10 commandments in a
classroom is like oh, you'repreferring your religion over
other people and you're addingyour morals here.
We just need to have a neutralspace, right?
I think that's kind of like theprevailing opposition to it.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Right now the cultural thought is I, I mean,
and for many years I'd saychristians probably were in this
space.
But as things got sort ofcrazier with like we didn't even
know what gender was, uh, wesort of said we need to figure
out what is a baseline.
And so now christians inpolitics have said I want to put
(10:35):
the Ten Commandments in everyclassroom as a moral.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
And this is not a new idea.
This is like what people saidwhen America was founded and was
a norm for a long time, and thereality is though it's a lie
that neutral spaces exist.
There's no such thing.
Every society is built on somekind of shared moral framework.
It's not whether or not there'sa moral framework.
(11:03):
The question is which moralframework, and if it's going to
be an atheistic, secular moralframework, then it's just
whatever who's in power,whatever they decide is right or
wrong.
And so what should we?
So you know, to answer thequestion, what do I do when
people are frustrated?
Uh, man, it's going to be sometough conversations.
You're going to need a lot ofpatience and self-control, but
if you can, slowly and gentlyand lovingly um, you can still
(11:27):
be gentle and bold at the sametime, I think but kind of move
things in the direction ofhelping people understand
there's no such thing as aneutral space.
Yeah, um, we do need to havemorals here.
We, we do need to be able to.
You know, schools originallyexisted to teach virtue, right,
um, not just you knowinformation and facts.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
I want to explain.
There's no neutral space.
In other words, laws government, if you want to are inherently
moral.
They are inherently moral.
It's just whose morals are they?
So when people say stoplegislating morality, it is
impossible because alllegislation is a form of
morality.
(12:06):
So let's get into that.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
And the Ten Commandments are the summary of
God's moral law and thereforethe very good thing to have that
be a shared morality forschools.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
So when somebody says hey, listen, I'm Muslim, why
are you putting on your TenCommandments, which probably
Muslims wouldn't have that muchissue with?
But how about I'm atheist?
Why are you putting these TenCommandments on me?
I don't believe in God.
So the commandment number one Iam violating right now and I
don't care, and I will put upgraven images all over the place
(12:41):
and I will take the Lord's namein vain because I can.
How do we respond to that in agentle but loving way that says
hey, the content of this isn'tactually what your problem is.
Your problem is is you want tobe God?
Is that fair?
(13:02):
Do you have something, john?
Speaker 2 (13:06):
That's a tactic to take.
It can't begin and end withthat.
It would have to probably beginwith hey, we should get lunch,
and I want to know all aboutwhere that's coming from.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
Yeah, right, yeah, I mean a lot of times when people
came to Jesus with theirfrustrations, he didn't just
answer their questions, he askedhis own questions.
Right, you know, and helpedkind of dig up, take me through
that.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
So if I said to you I'm like this is ridiculous, I
mean, stop putting your religionon me.
And then you take me to lunch,I'm like, okay, let me have it.
Okay, christian nationalist,tell me why?
Um, I should be on board withyour Christian nationalism and
you want to put your impose yourreligion in my classroom?
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Yeah, you can start with man, tell me why.
Why does that frustrate you?
Why, you know?
Why is this something that youare so angry about?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
and I would say because I don't want to be
forced to believe something thatI don't believe, because part
of what's being american isfreedom of religion and I, or in
my case, freedom from religionthere you go, a lot of go, go a
lot of different directions withthis one way you can go, okay,
hey, um, you know there might be10 different religions, you
(14:13):
know that.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Come into this classroom.
Um, there's got to be someagreed upon right and wrong to
have order, to have peace.
There's got to be a code ofconduct if we're going to have
an orderly, you know classroomin here.
So whose code of conduct do youthink should be in charge?
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Yeah, and that's where I'm like well, why don't
we?
We could just take some of alittle bit of everybody.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Yeah, and then you, okay, let's, let's, um, tease
that out.
What would that look like?
And I think, when you can askquestions, reality is um, if you
start walking down that path,very quickly it devolves into
like wait a second, this isimpossible to do.
It is impossible.
It's impossible to do withoutexcluding someone, um, or
without preferring one set ofvalues over another.
(14:58):
At the end of the day, ifyou're going to have a code of
conduct, then this is what aculture is.
This is how you get values.
This is how you get someone isgoing to decide these things are
okay and these things are not.
We have blasphemy laws rightnow.
They're just not.
You can say certain things andthere are some things that, if
you say, you'll get canceled.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Like fire in theater, or like if you make a racist
comment or whatever, which isprobably a good thing to get
canceled over.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Yeah, there are things that if you say this,
people are going to go.
You know we'll never give you ajob here, Right.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Something like that Right.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
So you know some form , not you know technical
blasphemy laws, but you knowwhat I mean.
Yeah, no matter what you'regoing to have to decide, these
things are allowed and thesethings aren't.
And so when you ask them thequestion who should get to
decide that and why, and whatshould it be, you turn around
and they don't have an answer.
I don't know.
And then you can go well, ok,you know, it makes sense.
(15:52):
Here's why it makes sense forit to be the Ten Commandments.
This country was founded as aProtestant Christian nation.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
I think the Ten Commandments are on the Supreme
Court, right On the building.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
And then, well, that violates the First Amendment,
right, Freedom of assembly andyou go, well, okay, let's talk
about that, and you can,depending on how many lunches
they want to have, how manycoffees they want to have, how
much they really.
It could be a really fruitfulconversation.
Or it could be like, yeah, man,that's crazy, and you just move
on because you're not going toget anywhere with them.
(16:21):
Um, but if someone really wantsto go down that road, you can
go.
Well, man, from the beginning.
Uh, talk about Noah Webster andhow he wanted every kid to
learn to read the Bible and howpublic schools need to teach the
Bible.
Back at you know, the foundingof the country, how freedom of
religion originally did not meanyou can worship any God you
(16:42):
want.
It meant you can worship theChristian God as a Baptist or a
Presbyterian or you know.
You can according to yourconscience, without the
government interfering in yourworship of the Christian God.
Freedom of religion was aChristian doctrine.
Christian liberty came out ofthe Protestant Reformation
(17:02):
Separation of church and state.
That idea was to preventgovernment overreach.
None of this stuff was meant totry to keep Christianity out of
institutions, out of politics,out of the public square and so
if you want to go into someAmerican history and church
history but a lot of peopledon't want to really go into all
(17:23):
that, they're just mad and theywant to vent and sometimes
maybe the best thing you can dois go.
I'm sorry that soundsfrustrating.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
And then share the gospel with them.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
So Andy Stanley criticized this law by saying
what should be on the walls isthis treat others the way you
would want to be treated, jesus.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Christ.
That was on a big banner in myelementary school when I was in
like first grade.
Yeah, the golden rule, goldenrule.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
That's what he advocated instead of the Ten
Commandments, because the TenCommandments advocates law,
whereas I guess this is still alaw, right, I'm not sure where
what is, but he wanted Jesus'name on there, and he wanted the
golden rule, which I beforethat too, I haven't either one
would be I'd be excited about.
Yeah, I say put it all up there.
Yeah, yeah, I say put it all upthere, yeah.
(18:15):
So what do you think?
But when you hear thatcriticism of him saying like,
don't reflect a Jewishperspective, you should reflect
a Christian perspective, if thisnation is a Christian nation.
What do you mean a Jewishperspective?
So like, obviously that'sChristian right, but the Jews,
if you're Jewish, you would saythat's the ten commandments as
(18:35):
specific to jewish context, andchristians are free from that
law as we're forgiven by it.
I don't know, that's what Ithink his, that's where he's
going with.
Why go and escalate or elevate?
So we're not as opposed?
Speaker 3 (18:45):
to new.
I see, I see, okay, so to me,yeah, I think andy stanley has
some major theological problemswe've talked about this in that
he wants to he said explicitlydetach unhitch from the Old
Testament.
And he, you know, there's somemajor problems because as
Christians, we are set free fromthe law in terms of, um, uh,
(19:07):
the old, we're not under the oldcovenant, right, we're not
under law in terms of we achievesalvation by obeying God's law.
Rather, we receive salvation byfaith in Jesus Christ.
But God's moral law is stillbinding on us.
It's still binding.
And you see that in the NewTestament, when we're commanded
to worship God, paul in Romanssays he brings up the second
(19:28):
table, so that the two tables ofthe Ten Commandments, the first
four commandments, summarizedby how you love God, the second
six, the next six commandmentson how you love your neighbor,
right, two tables of law, secondtable of law, paul.
Paul repeats those things inthe book of Romans, saying, um,
that by loving your neighbor youfulfill the law.
Um, and you know he, he says,yeah, you shouldn't murder, you
(19:51):
shouldn't commit adultery.
So the moral law is stillbinding on us.
That's a perpetual law.
We're not saved by obedience toit, but we're still called to
walk in it and obey it yeah, oneof the things I always like to
say is Christian.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Yeah, jesus fulfilled the ceremonial law so that he
is able to forgive the moral lawhow we've broken it, how we've
broken it, and then we'reallowing us to live under any
civil law, displaying thekingdom of God wherever we're at
.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
So we're not free as Christians to like, oh sweet,
I'm free, now I can go murderpeople and commit adultery and
covet, and nobody would say that, right, yeah, we're free from
the penalty of that because ofJesus and we're freed from sin.
We're not slaves to sin.
We're free to obey the morallaw.
We are set free by the power ofthe Holy Spirit to actually
(20:38):
walk in obedience to the law, byloving God and loving our
neighbors.
Um so yeah.
With that, I'd say the 10commandments are Christian.
Um and uh, they're good,they're God's moral law and it's
, it should be, the shared moralframework that we have for a, a
good institution, a goodclassroom, a good society.
There's got to be some moralframework.
(21:00):
Which one should we pick?
I think the one that God cameup with.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Nice Sure, I agree.
Any other thoughts on thatthere, john?
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yeah, it's really good to start at the Ten
Commandments too, because thisis the beginning of something
that could build to somethinggreater, right?
Uh, but it it's.
It's really hard to look atthose ten commandments and go I
don't like that one.
I can't, unless I'm outingmyself as someone who loves
(21:27):
anarchy and you shouldn't electme.
If I do, then I should be onboard with that list.
Yeah, right, and that's a goodcheck.
Like forget the christianitypart, forget.
Just look at the paper and thensay I mean, I like what it says
.
It's not like where it comesfrom.
Well, just just just like whatit says first, and then we can
talk about the rest of it andhow it applies and also won't
(21:49):
get tricked.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Yeah, on that note.
Um, so that doesn't mean, hey,we're gonna force everyone in
this classroom to be a christ.
You can't do that.
You can't force faith.
What you can do is say we'regoing to look to this standard
for our morals and if you're anatheist, you're a Muslim.
Just expect like that.
(22:11):
This is the standard that we'regoing to conduct ourselves by
in this classroom and you needto be mindful and respectful of
that.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Nice, okay, so let's move on from that to this next
question.
This question asker sent inthis video of Ray Comfort.
Let's give it a watch, allright, that was a great video.
Now, what I want to talk about,though, the question says what
are your guys' thoughts on thechurch?
(22:38):
Does the church have falseconverts?
So, ray brought up like, theproblem with the church today is
a lot of people ask Jesus intotheir heart, but those aren't
real salvations, and what youneed to do is you need to ask
people to repent.
So when you think about thatafter watching that video, john,
what's your take on that?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
My take is going to start with my personal
experience.
First, when I got baptized here, I definitely knew that I
needed it, but I couldn'tarticulate why and I was still a
slave to sin in some respects,okay, but it made the church
completely irresistible to me.
It made God's people like, ohman, not only do they want to
(23:22):
like talk theology, they're onboard with this forgiveness
stuff.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Okay, so hold on, let's talk.
So what did you receive Jesusinto your heart?
How did you become a Christian?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
It was late one night and I was in bed talking to
Jesus going.
Look God, I don't know how thisworks.
I guess I surrender you.
I'm waiting to see what you'regoing to do with me, but I'm
only leaving the door open acrack.
Let's do this.
And then, because I don't likebeing theatrical or being like a
tension guy, I said I'm notgoing to tell anybody.
They have to ask me directly.
And of course you are invasiveand you asked me at the man
(23:58):
group hey, so have you acceptedJesus yet?
And I said yeah.
And you went so yeah, thathappened.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Okay, that's good.
So so this is where I don'tknow and maybe this is maybe my
critique of Ray Comfort is he'sold Meaning.
I don't know if people aresaying you need to accept Jesus
in your heart anymore, because Ithink he was criticizing Bill
Bright's.
God has a wonderful plan foryour life, you know, you just
need to check it out, and maybethat is.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
It's alive and well today.
I just I would say, like inevery year when we go on family
vacation in the summer, uh, wevisit a church wherever we are,
you know and so every year forthe this is um going on 13 years
now since, uh, jenny and I gotmarried, um that we have visited
a different church in adifferent town, wherever we're
staying, and man, uh, maybe oneor two of these churches we came
(24:50):
back from was like that wasawesome and the rest is we we
have visited so many that we'vebeen like now that was a watered
down, easy believe um eitherthe borderline, heretical, or
just so like seeker, sensitive,where, hey, just you know, um,
just come back and we've got agreat kids ministry and we've
(25:10):
got a gift for you and just youknow it's okay, jesus loves you
just like you are and you knowthat's great.
Kids ministry is great, visitorgifts are great.
Jesus does love you.
But it kind of stopped there.
I cannot tell you if one of themaybe, like I said, one or two
of those churches actually saidyou need to repent from your sin
and put your faith in JesusChrist.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
That was just Okay, faith in Jesus Christ.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
That was just okay, maybe I'm just you know what
happens is you get stuck in yourown world.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, and soyou don't see that there's other
means I think there's a lot ofit still going on out there.
I so one thought I had one.
Where does the like acceptJesus in your heart?
Stuff come from?
Like?
Is that even in the Bible?
Um, I think of John, chapterone, where it says says to all
who did receive him, so Jesuscame to his own.
(25:56):
His own people did not receivehim, but to all who did receive
him, who believed in his name,he gave the right to become
children of God.
So there's receiving Jesus.
Then you got Romans 10, 9.
Yeah, 10, 9.
Confess with your mouth Jesusis Lord and believe in your
heart that God raised him fromthe dead, you'll be saved.
So there's a receiving of Jesus, there's a believing in your
(26:16):
heart.
So I'm like I don't think thatlanguage is horrible, but I also
think you do need to callpeople to repent A hundred
percent.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
What about Revelation 3.20, which is not an
evangelism verse, but it can beused as one?
I stand at the door and knock,and if anyone would open the
door for me, he will look, Iwill come in and sup with him or
eat with him.
And I think he's talking aboutdoor of your heart, right?
I mean, he's not literallysaying we're gonna have dinner
together.
So there is some spiritualconnection of let me in, yeah.
And so I don't think theverbiage is wrong.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
However, by itself, if you don't ever bring in
repentance, I would say he's gota point.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Yeah, this is where maybe I'm just the part the
problem I have.
I love I use his technique oflike bring up the law.
Yeah, I love bring up the lawand say have you broken the law?
Well, you're a sinner.
If you've lied once, you're aliar.
If you've hated, jesus saysyou've committed murder.
If you've lusted, you're anadulterer.
I love going that route when itcomes to evangelism because it
(27:13):
makes it clear.
However, I don't want to startputting any doubts in people's
salvation that they aren'treally saved because they
accepted Jesus in their heart.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
I think, JD Greer had a book called.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Stop Accepting Jesus Into your Heart, or something
like that.
I was like I think you go toofar Jesus into your heart, or
something like that.
And I was like.
I was like I think you go toofar, like I think you want to.
You're so wanting to make apoint.
It's about the.
You know, the gospel isn'taccepting Jesus in your heart.
It's about the death, burial,resurrection of Christ and him
saying repent, for the kingdomof God is near and you believing
in what he did for you toforgive you of your sin.
Yeah, so in.
(27:58):
In some ways, I think it'sconfusing to kind of challenge
people like you're not a realChristian.
In other ways, I think it'snecessary to have someone say
hey, check your heart.
Sounds like an old school term.
Check your heart to see if youreally and truly are saved, that
you believe that you're asinner, that Jesus' death on the
cross for your sins.
There was a great exchange.
He took your sins and he gaveyou new life and he calls you to
live a new life by the power ofthe Holy Spirit.
(28:20):
Whenever I lead someone toChrist, I usually like to say in
the sinner's prayer I love thesinner's prayer.
I'm not thumbs down on thesinner's prayer, but I ask the
Holy Spirit to come into theirheart and make them the person
that they're supposed to be and,by believing that Jesus died
for their sins, rose from thedead.
Now the Holy Spirit comes inand challenges them to live a
new way.
I don't know, Maybe I'm insemantic world, but I feel like
(28:47):
and maybe Ray is just making apoint that we need to really
challenge people to Jesus'lordship.
That's not what saves you, butthat's what you're called to.
Does that make sense?
I don't know, Sure.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Yeah, I just think, I think to answer the question
are there false converts in thechurch?
Yeah there always has been.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
And I think that's biblical the wheat and the tare
is going to grow together.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Oh, yeah, and you don't.
Only God knows someone's heart.
All we can judge is someone'sconfession of faith and the
fruit that we see in their life.
Um and so when we do membershipinterviews, you know, like we
don't have some device that canyou know, see if someone is a?
real Christian um but when thefruit of someone's life is that
(29:29):
they are not repenting from sinbut they're calling themselves a
Christian and you have aresponsibility to call that out
and every church is going todeal with that.
There's lots of warnings aboutthat in the scripture.
But I think kind of his pointis you can open the door for a
(29:52):
flood of false converts by acertain way of preaching which
is never calling people toactually repent.
So then you have a bunch ofpeople that love Christianity
and you have whole churches andmovements and denominations that
go apostate Right, Because itwas never about repenting from
your sin, it was just aboutJesus loves me and he loves me
just as I am and therefore Idon't need to change anything
(30:13):
about my life.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
It's the comfort without the cross.
Because I do think Jesus doessay come to me.
All you are weary and heavyladen, I will give you rest.
But then he also says if anyonewould come after me, he must
deny himself.
Take up his cross and follow me.
And you're like?
Which one is it?
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Oh, it's both yeah, exactly, Come to me and let's go
.
Yeah, and I'll give you rest,and you know it's going to cost
you everything.
And those are both true.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
All right, here we go .
Next question.
Good morning, I'm a born-againChristian and I have a question.
In the Bible, revelation 21,verses, 1 through 4.
I need someone to go look thatup.
It is stated that there will bea new heaven and a new earth.
My question is will there be anew physical heaven and earth?
(30:59):
Or, because I'm a believer ofJesus Christ and have the Holy
Spirit in me, the earth aroundme is new to me, since I have
the Holy Spirit.
I'm a 28-year-old woman doingBible study with my 52-year-old
mom and we have different viewson the scripture, so we need
clarification.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
That's so sweet doing Bible study with your mom.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
I love that too.
That's great.
I'm pretty.
First of all way to go 28 yearold person having doing Bible
study with your 52 year old momFirst off way to go.
But your first thought on thatHolland.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Yes, it is an actual new creation.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
It's not a symbolic interpretation of Revelation.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Are we going to sneak in some other conversations
here?
Yes, I believe that Revelationhas literal and symbolic aspects
to it aspects to it, and thereis a promise of a new creation
in that, in the same way thatJesus, in a similar way that
(32:08):
Jesus had a resurrected,glorified body, we have this
promise that we too will beresurrected and glorified, and
that the whole earth Romans 8speaks about this as well the
earth groaning awaiting thereturn of Jesus, where he makes
everything new.
And so, yes, I believe thatthat's referring to an actual
renewed creation.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
I agree with that.
So I think what gets confusingand this depends on your
eschatological view I think thatthere is a millennial kingdom
and then there is the new heavenand new earth.
So the millennial kingdom isthe kingdom of God, where Jesus
is enthroned for a thousandyears, which, holland, I think
you take that as figurative.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
No, okay.
So it's a thousand years.
He's on his throne right now inheaven, reigning over all
things, right.
So that's not thousand years.
He's on his throne right now inheaven, reigning over all
things, right.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
That's not figurative , that's literal.
All right, okay, I take it.
My literal view is that therewill be a time, the rapture,
when the Christians are takenaway, and that's kind of the
left behind series.
And then there are theseven-year period of tribulation
.
First three and a half yearsare pretty great.
The last three and a half yearsare pretty great.
The last three and a half yearsare just awful and torturous
for all of humanity, whichChristians will have to
experience, except for the newbelievers who become believers
(33:17):
during the tribulation.
But then, when Jesus comes backat the end of the tribulation,
he'll start his thousand yearreign, whereas Holland calls
that thousand year reign rightnow, where Jesus is on the
throne right now.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
And we disagree on that eschatological preference
Three millenn remillennial foryou, amillennial for me, right
tertiary issue in the church,it's okay we disagree.
Chris gets to have the officialidea.
I get the official positionbecause I it's.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Yeah, I love that anyway.
So, but but the reality is weboth believe that eventually,
after the millennial kingdom, anew heaven and new earth will
come down, or a new heaven and anew earth.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
A new Jerusalem comes down from heaven is what it
says.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the
first heaven and the first earthhad passed away and the sea was
no more, and I saw the holycity, new Jerusalem, coming down
out of heaven, prepared as abride adorned for her husband,
and so I would take that as anactual new thing, a new heaven,
new earth.
But I can see, if you are goingfrom a millennial kingdom
(34:22):
perspective, that it's going tobe this earth and heaven on
earth, so to speak, becauseJesus is ruling here, that would
be yes, and then yes later, butyou would take it too.
Is that actual new city kind ofcomes down and we all dwell in
it together with Jesus?
Speaker 3 (34:40):
Yeah, so where we both agree is that at the return
of Jesus at some point we mightdisagree on the exact timeline,
but where we would both agree,where pretty much all Christians
have agreed, is that eventuallyJesus will come back to judge
(35:00):
the living and the dead, andthen the first heaven and earth
will pass away and there will bea new heaven and earth where we
live forever with God in hispresence, with glorified bodies,
where there will be no more sin, all the brokenness of creation
will be healed, everything willbe made new.
(35:21):
And that's the great hope thatwe have and there's total
agreement there A hundredpercent, yeah, and it's a
physical.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
This is why I love about at the very beginning
podcast talking about thephysical and spiritual
manifesting in in moments,whereas there you have the
physical and spiritual realizedtogether.
It's completely spiritual, butit's also completely physical.
You will have an actual body.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Yeah, so a lot, you know.
Sometimes you get the idea thatjust like the end of
Christianity is being a spiritin heaven, you know kind of
popularized by movies or TVshows, paintings over the years
and stuff like that, where yousee people just kind of floating
in heaven playing harps andstuff like that.
But the promise, the real, truehope of Christianity is not
(36:03):
being a spirit in heaven forever.
That's called theological term,is the intermediary state, in
that it's not the final state.
The final state is that we will, our spirits will be rejoined
with a physical body in theresurrection and we'll live
forever in an actual physicalbody, in a physical earth, but
(36:24):
that is remade, renewed, freefrom sin and corruption.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
All right.
So here's why.
What's interesting is, I wonder, as they were talking, I wonder
if this was an argument or ifthis was a you know, is this
something they're dividing overor like having real conflict
over?
I hope it's not, because thisis one of those tertiary views,
(36:52):
but I think you can agree, weall agree, that you will one day
have a physical body, and I andI think the new heaven, new
earth thing, that's pretty muchuniversally accepted, right.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
Uh, yeah, I mean, go to like the apostles creed.
When you go, what?
What do we confess?
What do we believe?
Um, that, uh, Jesus will comeagain to judge the quick and the
dead.
Right, so he's coming back tojudge the world.
And then it says we believe inthe resurrection of the dead,
and so we believe in a physicalresurrection and to live in a
(37:24):
renewed physical world.
And that's standard Christiandoctrine.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Yeah Well hey, if you have any further questions,
please let us know.
We'd love to hear from you.
It's an exciting thing to kindof walk through just the truth
here.
Any other thoughts on that?
And when you heard thatquestion, john, does that make
you go?
Why would you ask that?
Or?
Speaker 2 (37:45):
what are your thoughts there, my thoughts when
it comes to this kind ofexplanation.
I like to come back to thethree S's Is it a sin issue, a
salvation issue or a sovereigntyissue?
Is Is it a sin issue, asalvation issue or a sovereignty
issue?
And if it's none of those three, then it's an excellent
discussion medium.
But it isn't grounds forargument or death, right, it's
grounds for like.
Well, what can we piecetogether?
(38:06):
And as long as we don't breakthe rest of scripture, which is,
it's entertaining.
For me it's a thoughtexperiment, as long as we've got
it within the cage and confinesof like let's not disobey God,
but they're theorizing it's,it's.
It is a.
It is a way to flex yourspiritual juices and cultivate a
(38:29):
framework without honestly with.
One of the nicest places thateven scientists will agree is
that we can admit we don't knowyeah it is so freeing to be in
an environment where you know Ican't be sure, but maybe it's
nice if it was this without.
(38:49):
What a blessing to have anenvironment to disagree in love
and not the commonplace culturalway which is if you disagree
with me, I will unfriend you.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Hey, I love that.
Hey, thanks so much forwatching.
If you want to jump in theconversation, you can text us
737-231-0605.
We would love to hear from you.
It is like our passion toanswer questions and help take
faith from something that's justcompletely ethereal to
something that's not justspiritual but also affects the
material.
Hey, thanks so much forwatching From our house to yours
(39:26):
.
Have an awesome week of worship.
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