July 31, 2025 • 27 mins
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361: When "Machine Gun Nick" Drummond drops his militant moniker, it signals a profound shift in his approach to life. Once quick to embrace violence as a first response, Nick now considers it "the very last option, and only if extremely applicable." What caused this transformation? This raw, honest conversation between Pastor Plek and former soldier Nick Drummond explores the mysterious alchemy that occurs when genuine faith replaces white-knuckled willpower.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I am your host, pastor plec.
Joining me today is none otherthan nick drummond, back from
the past.
How are you, nick?
I'm doing pretty good yourself.
I'm doing well.
We, I've noticed recentlyyou've gone without the moniker
machine gun, nick.
Yes, can you please tell us alittle bit about that?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
well you know, as that past goes, I think that it
actions and and, uh, things thatwould happen weren't weren't
very godly, you know.
Yeah, so we're just kind ofchanging the way we're
(00:48):
approaching life.
Maybe not as violence is thevery last option, okay, that's
good, and only if, like,extremely applicable.
If we can't, you know, get awayfirst, okay, instead of you
know the moniker, machine Gun,nick, where violence was always,
you know meh Might have been upthere as number one.
Yeah, it might.
You know, moniker, machine gunnick, where violence was always.
You know, meh might have beenup there as number one.
Yeah, it might.
It might, you know, dependingon what the situation, we might
(01:08):
have went straight to it.
And you know I can violencebetter than you, okay, yeah, but
we don't want to do that.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
That's good.
That's good.
So how has like sanctificationfor you over the past year?
What does that look like?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
it's a rough road.
Um, well, I don't drink nearlyas much as I used to like almost
zero, that's good.
Uh, this the cursing, though ithappens sometimes is cut back
drastically.
Um, and you know the smokingproblem, that vice.
I'm not gonna say it's gone,but it's not near as what it
(01:45):
used to.
So what do you attribute thatto?
Speaker 1 (01:46):
because this is a.
This is one of the things Ithink people want to change and
they're like committed tochanging.
They're they're convinced thatchanging is the best thing.
But what, for you, was thething that got all those things
to come together?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
yeah, that it's got to be.
J I might have wanted to quitsmoking.
I never thought I was evergoing to have conversations
without dropping the F-bomb atleast 10 times and drinking.
I was like, well, I'm Scottish,that's what we do, right, and
it was never like I'm going toquit drinking.
For me, I was like, you know,it's only a little bit.
(02:25):
It wasn't like I was, you know,pounding a fifth a night or
anything.
I've had those, thoseexperiences, but it wasn't, you
know.
So it wasn't bad, right, right,and you just you go throughout
this searching for god and youfind that those vices aren't
needed.
Huh, so would you?
Speaker 1 (02:46):
find yourself just more in the presence of the Lord
, or would you?
Because whenever I hear that, Iusually, when I think about
your life and I think of, I justthink of like you know how,
like you, have you ever done alot of cooking and then you've
had like a skillet, just havecrud all stuck on it and the
only way you can get out you caneither A work real hard with
(03:09):
like a steel wool or somethingor you just let soak in some
Dawn for a while and usually thesoaking in Dawn is all it needs
.
It just takes a little bit ofwhile and then it just slides
right off.
So it seems like the moreyou've soaked in the Holy Spirit
, the more you've gottenexperience around Jesus, the
more that his goodness has, like, made the crud stick less.
(03:33):
Is that fair?
Yeah, yeah, that's good, allright.
Well, it's exciting to hearthat and I think that's just
it's inspirational for peoplethat are really sort of
struggling out there and notknowing kind of their next step
in their life, not sure whichroad to take.
Now we did have a question comein and I'm going to read it to
you from the Pastor Plek line ofquestions if you will, and it
(03:57):
goes like this I'm wrestlingwith reconciling the idea of, by
faith alone, sola fide, fromthe five solas of the
Reformation in light of James 2,20 through 20, 26.
How does that fit in with therest of Scripture that supports
the idea of sola fide, likeEphesians 2, 8 through 10?
Well, let's just go real quickand let's see if we can read
(04:22):
first James 2, 20 through 26.
I'm going to read it to you andthen I want you to give me your
first thought on thesescriptures.
So let me pull up.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
We're going with a knee-jerk reaction, right.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, absolutely.
I would love to hear your firstreaction because I think I
could probably bring to bear anycorrection needs.
All right, here it is.
James 2, 20 through 26 says butwould you like evident?
Oh, hold on, sorry, would youlike get the ESV?
(04:56):
But someone will say you havefaith and I have works.
Show me your faith apart fromyour works and I will show you
my faith by my works.
You believe that God is one youdo well, even the demons
believe and shudder.
Do you want to be shown, youfoolish person, that faith apart
(05:19):
from works is useless?
Was not Abraham, our father,justified by works when he
offered up his son Isaac on thealtar?
You see that faith was activealong with his works, and faith
was completed by his works andthe scripture was fulfilled.
That says Abraham believed Godand it was counted to him as
righteousness and he was calleda friend of God.
You see that a person isjustified by works and not by
faith alone.
(05:40):
And in the same way, it was notalso Rahab, the prostitute,
justified by works when shereceived the messengers and sent
them out by another way?
For as the body apart from thespirit is dead, so also faith
from apart from works is dead.
Okay, so register all that.
And now I'm going to read youEphesians 2, 8 through 10, which
(06:05):
is kind of a way different,wild way of thinking.
All right, for by grace youhave been saved through faith,
and this is not your own doing.
It is the gift of God, not aresult of works, so that no one
may boast, for we are hisworkmanship, creating Christ
Jesus, for good works which Godprepared beforehand that we
(06:25):
should walk in them.
So the question asks like howdo I reconcile these two things?
It feels like James and Paulare arguing against each other
as opposed to the same point.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Oh, I definitely agree on that right now, like
and so.
So, like I want to gochronological order.
Well, james has got to bebecause he's closer to the, to
the Jesus, right?
Yeah, so maybe he knows heknows a little bit more than
Paul on this one.
You know, that's that's how I'm, my brain is, is is looking at
this.
But yeah, like, because thenon-denominational church, we
(07:04):
believe that grace alone willsuffice.
Now my Catholic roots go.
Hey, you got to have grace andworks, right, so like, that's
kind of confusing.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Right, so I love.
So, yeah, it is, it's difficult.
So the question is is how canit possibly be both?
And with Scripture, you don'tpit them against one another,
because that doesn't work.
You don't fight.
Heaven isn't having a war ofwords.
And if it's all inspired, ifthis is a canonized gospel, how
(07:41):
do, sorry?
Canonized Word of God, andevery Word of God is equally
important.
How do, or sorry, canonize wordof God, and every word of God
is equally important.
How do you, how do you resolvethis conflict?
All right, so you want toharmonize the passages, and so
here's what I would say Faith isthe root, works is the fruit is
(08:05):
the root, works is the fruit.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
So I was kind of thinking about that in my mind,
as if you're walking with theLord and you are trying to be
more like Jesus, works are justgoing to automatically happen,
right.
But it's not going to be underthe pretense of if I do this
nice thing, I'm going to getsomething out of it.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Right, it's because I've been saved, I do this good
thing, yeah.
So I think Ephesiansestablished that faith is a sole
means by which we receive God'sgrace for salvation.
And then James clarifies thattrue faith is not merely an
intellectual assent, but aliving trust in God that
transforms a person's life,leading to good works.
(08:47):
Works are not the cause ofsalvation but the evidence of it
.
Because he says in James 2, doyou want me to show you, do you
want the evidence, that faithwithout works is dead?
So he says let me see if I canpull it up.
Yeah, do you want to be shown,you foolish person, that faith
(09:10):
apart from works is useless?
And then he goes to Abraham.
Well, we all know from Abrahamhas two parts of his story In
Genesis.
Let's see if I can find, okay.
(09:33):
So Genesis 15 is where Abrahambelieves God and it's credited
to him as righteousness.
In Genesis 22 is where God saystake your son, your only son,
isaac, whom you love, and go tothe land of Moriah and offer him
there as a burnt offering onone of the mountains of which I
(09:54):
shall show you.
So the very fact that he obeysGod comes back.
You know which one comes first?
Well, genesis 15 comes first.
Where he was, abraham believedGod and he was credited with
righteousness.
So they both show faith, right,his ability to act on what God
(10:16):
would have him do, because hebelieved that somehow God could
raise him from the dead.
That's what we know fromHebrews that the reason why he
went and took his son is he knewthat God would somehow raise
him from the dead.
That's what we know fromHebrews that the reason why he
went and took his son is he knewthat God would somehow raise
him from the dead.
That's how much trust he had inGod to go and obey him and
sacrifice him if he needed to.
Okay, so then you also haveRahab, who's mentioned.
(10:37):
Right, rahab is a prostitute,but she says the fear of God has
come all over us.
So she believes that Yahweh,the God of Israel, is going to
destroy Jericho, and sotherefore, she says I'm on your
team.
Don't forget about me, scarletthread.
(10:57):
I'm on the team when you guyscome to attack this thing, we
will be ready right here.
And so she was spared becauseshe acted based on belief.
Now, here's what I'm going totell you you cannot act unless
you believe you can't.
So for let's, even if someoneputs a gun to your head and says
(11:19):
don't smoke, well, you believethat they're going to pull the
trigger, so you are not going toput the cigarette to your lips.
That is an action based onbelief.
You cannot.
Uh, action does not precedebelief.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
That's the kind of thing where you're not looking
at me.
I'll get one over, or I mightjust light one up in front of
you with the gun in my face andbe like do it yeah.
This is hilarious.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
If you do that, you don't really believe I'm going
to shoot you, though.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Or I don't care.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Alright.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Which is a dumb thing to die on.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
But I mean, I guess people have died for dumber
things.
But I guess that's the point.
If you have faith in Jesus thathe has saved you, then you're
going to act in accordance withthat.
If you don't care, you're goingto do whatever.
Right at some point in Jesusthat he has saved you, then
you're going to act inaccordance with that.
If you don't care, you're goingto do whatever At some point.
(12:25):
You can't truly believe thatJesus died on the cross for your
sins and rose from the dead andhave no existential crisis of
understanding the depths of yoursorrow and sickness and then
just do whatever.
I agree with that.
But this is where the reason whyJames becomes so powerful.
He says it is possible to be ahearer of the word and not a
doer of the word, becauseclearly there are hypocrites all
(12:47):
over the place, and so whatthey're reflecting is they are a
Christian in doctrine andatheist in practice, and I think
that's what James is getting at.
Don't talk to me about yourfaith.
That has no action, becausethat seems worthless to me.
But you can't even have a faithto begin with unless God gives
(13:09):
it to you.
In fact, even James saysreceive the word with meekness,
the word that is implanted inyou.
So who's doing the planting?
It's not like you're plantingyourself, it's God is planting
the word in you of what you areto receive with meekness.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
It kind of goes back to the white knuckling right.
Yeah, like I can white knucklestuff all day long.
But how long are you going tobe able to white knuckle it
until you crack Right or have afall, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah, I totally agree .
I think that's where thistension of faith and works.
It should be one that we shouldbe examining.
In fact, paul, the writer ofEphesians, also says in 2
Corinthians 13, we shouldexamine ourselves to see if we
(14:09):
are really in the faith.
So take a look, and when youlook at yourself and go, has my
life changed?
Do I believe that Jesus died onthe cross for me?
Was there an existential crisisof some sort where
ontologically I was like I am amess unless God, who made me,
(14:30):
created me, unless he saves me?
That's the reality that mostpeople in general, nobody's
thinking like that.
But you're forced to think likethat with Paul's press for you
to examine yourself to see ifyou are truly in the faith.
And how would you know ifyou're truly in the faith?
You would look at your actionsand go because I believe this.
(14:52):
I have done that.
But we all know even Jesus saidyour actions don't define your
salvation right.
So you've got Jesus, who harpson people's actions without
faith.
Paul, who harps on your faithbeing before any action, and
(15:14):
then James who says make sureyou got the actions to meet up
with your faith and what Jesussays, like there may be.
Many of you say Lord, lord,didn't I prophesy in your name?
Didn't we do miracles in yourname?
He'd say depart from me.
I never knew you.
So doing amazing works, likereally healing, helping, doing
great things for people, doesnot save you.
(15:36):
And this becomes like here'swhere, if you were to look at
conservative and liberaltheology, liberal theology is
like we need to do some stuff,we need to show our faith by
what we do.
And I'm like, if you do that andyou don't actually believe, you
are creating hell on earth,because it's a bad counterfeit
(16:00):
of what heaven is like Meaningwhat you're trying to do is
bring kingdom without the king.
In other words, I want everyoneto get along, I want everyone
to be reconciled, I want thereto be no poverty, but the
reality is, if you're notfocused on the king, they're
still poor.
If you're doing miracles inJesus' name but you don't have
faith that Jesus is the Lord,and then all of a sudden, all
(16:24):
your miracles in his name arenot a testament to Jesus,
they're a testament to someoneelse Yourself, yourself or maybe
even Satan that you could sayI'm doing this in Jesus' name,
but the reality is you're doingit for your own fame, and that
pride reveals that you're doingit for your father, the devil.
So there you go.
(16:46):
I think this is something thatevery Christian should wrestle
with, but ultimately you have togo to first cause.
Do you believe somethingbecause you do it, or do you do
something because you believe it?
Speaker 2 (17:04):
I ouch, yeah, because before I came to christ I would
have done something right, butit might not have been like, oh,
look at me, look at me.
But I would thought, yeah, Idid this great thing that takes
away.
You know, maybe one or two ofthe things I just did that were
really bad that week, you know Iwas raised a catholic like
(17:26):
there's a lot of guilt.
Week, you know I was raised aCatholic Like there's a lot of
guilt in there.
You know, right, right, right.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Right, and I think that is.
I think people genuinely wantto follow God and they're like
when they have the tension ofwhen they look at somebody whose
life is all about the doing,like most liberal people are
going to probably quote James 1,27,.
(17:56):
Religion that's pure andundefiled is this to visit
widows and orphans in theirdistress.
However, there's a second partof that that usually gets left
out and to keep oneselfunstained from the world.
So don't let the world's viewsof sin, righteousness and
judgment affect your view of aholy God and who he has called
(18:20):
you to be.
And so looking after widows andorphans, I think is important.
It's close to God's heart, andI think we should be definitely
taking care of those who aremarginalized, but not at the
expense of becoming stained bythe world and saying we're just
going to love you, to kind ofgive a blank check, to do
whatever you want to do, becausethen you're now doing the very
(18:41):
same thing that James isaccusing people of, of saying I
believe in God but I'm livinghowever I want, and so that
clearly can't be what James ismeaning he's talking.
I mean, in fact, he's the onethat's talking about like what
causes quarrels and dissensionsamong you in chapter four.
Isn't it anger, strife,sensuality?
Isn't that driving your souland not the things of God?
(19:04):
And I think that's where a lotof people find themselves is
that it's the sensuous, theanger, the jealousy, the
striving that happens, thatcreates a lot of conflict.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Well, no, I mean, that's like saying, hey, I do
all this good stuff and butthese things, you know, like
some of the stuff we have goingon today mutilation of your body
you know you feel like youshould be a canine instead of a
human right and just going alongwith that.
You know that doesn't reallyapply with the Bible's teachings
(19:46):
.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
And even though you might perceive that you do good
acts, you're not living the lifeor holding people accountable
by the word of the Lord, andthat definitely can doom one's
existence.
I'd say.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
For sure, but I do want people to understand that
there is a real reality offeeling like your work is
insufficient.
I feel like, pastorally, I wantto help people see that their
faith or their works probablyare insufficient, which is fine,
because we point back toChrist's finished work on the
cross.
Anytime you point to yourself,you're always going to be
(20:25):
lacking and so you don't boast.
That's why you shouldn't have,you know, self-esteem.
You need christ's team.
You don't boast in yourstrengths and your
accomplishments.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
You boast in your weaknesses and how christ more
than made up for, uh, yourweaknesses with his finished
work on the cross well, thatkind of ties into, you know,
when I got out of the army,because I honestly would have
sat down you know been in combatso many times but I would have
(20:55):
looked you in the eyes and saidI never did enough.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Right, oh, I feel like that.
I just went and enrolled andgot my VA benefits, like I'm
starting my VA health benefits.
I didn't even know I had.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Where have you been?
I?
Speaker 1 (21:05):
have.
I just felt like I didn'treally deserve that.
I you know, there's probablythere are people way worse off
than me.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Hold on this this is from this.
It was an officer.
We'll forgive him for that, butthis is from a guy that jumped
out of airplanes.
You know I don't really howevermany ruck marches you were in
ranger school.
Okay, if you don't knowanything about ranger school,
that's like 62, 64 days.
64 days absolute brutalitywhere, like, you're not even
(21:35):
being fed right, they're sleepdeprived and you just gotta go
right and he's over here, like Ididn't do enough to go see the
va right, yeah, that's how Imean.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
I think that's in every a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Oh, definitely and so I actually had my first meeting
with the va on.
Yeah, that's how I mean, Ithink that's in every a lot of
people.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Oh, definitely, and so I actually had my first
meeting with the va on august.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Uh, fourth, pretty excited about that, uh going to
go and I got enrolled and thenI'm now going to get like a my
first va doctor visit, orwhatever I guess you know, and
I'm 100 disabled and I'm lookingat it as a standpoint of like I
don't have my, like my handicapplacard in my truck and I'm
(22:09):
like, but I could put one inthere right now, and then days
when, like, I'm walking around,like I'm 80 and I'm like, oh
yeah, oh man, like you know, butit's, it's one of those things
like am I really gonna say thatI'm that disabled, right, even
though Even though, yeah, kindof I am, like you know, hand
goes numb, ringing in the ears?
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Oh yeah, I have all that yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Yeah, and I had a VA my whole arm goes numb.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Ooh yeah, all the way from I had a bad jump.
I did like 10, 15 rearsomersaults after this jump on
Sicily Drop Zone at Fort Braggand my head was ringing and I go
.
I had to have broken my arm butit was just nerve damage yeah,
yeah, geronimo drop zone, uh,fort park, louisiana I.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
I remember gaining canopy control, which is when
you grab a hold of risers,looking up and being like it is
really windy out here.
I don't remember anything elseuntil I felt like when I was
coming to it felt like I wasgoing backwards on a snowmobile
back in michigan as my head goesalong.
(23:19):
You know the drop zone sopainful my cavalar because we
had the old k-pots back then,but it was on crooked so I hit
my head wicked hard, you know.
A medic came running out andwas like Sergeant Drummond, are
you okay?
I'm like yeah, why, you know?
Because you don't want to be awuss.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Well, and that was back in the day when we took 800
milligrams of ibuprofen foreach pill.
Do you remember that?
Yes, I didn't realize that wasa lot.
We got two of them.
Yeah, two of them every time,yeah like here you go here's 800
milligrams each pill, so 600milligrams of ibuprofen was like
the standard.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Uh, we call it ranger candy, yeah absolutely, and and
you know, and so I'm like, I'mdazed, dazed the entire freaking
that whole day, right.
I actually looked at thatex-wife that night and was like,
if I don't wake up in themorning, I died, yeah, died, I
got a concussion.
She's like don't you go see?
Speaker 1 (24:09):
I'm like uh-uh you don't go see the medic, you
don't go see the medic.
You might as well just putyourself in line with the
chaplain to go leave the army,anyway.
So yeah no matter what.
I think that I've now sort ofas I've matured over the past 20
years.
I actually went to my uh, 20year reunion last year I think
(24:31):
it was, and yeah, and that was apowerful time to see all those
guys and and then I was like,you know, I probably did like a
lot of them were like a hundredpercent disabled and I was like,
oh, I guess I did have a littlechallenge when I was there.
Anyway, all that to say, it'ssometimes hard to not be the
(24:57):
person that does it all, and sograce flies in the face of any
sort of like look at what I havedone.
And anytime you start pointingat what you have done, that's
when Jesus says depart from me.
I never knew you.
But if you point to Jesus andsay, look what you've done on my
behalf and I'm so grateful,that's where your salvation
rests, not in what you've donefor Jesus.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
I think that's really a tough thing when you're
moving, when you're firstgetting into your walk with
Christ is to realize that it isthe glory of God, not the glory
of Nick, because at first I'vebeen like, look what I did.
I brought this person to thechurch, right.
When it comes down to is, lookwhat Jesus did.
All I did was walk in there andwhisper his words His words,
(25:37):
not mine.
I couldn't come up with thatstuff.
Yeah, like you know, that's,like you know, amazing.
If you read the book and youlook at the whole story and how
it aligns with the Old Testament, aligns with the New Testament,
and Jesus just comes through asthe Lamb and performs all the
miracles that were talked aboutin the Old Testament.
(25:58):
I didn't have an understanding,a grasp of that and then you
walk somebody through that rightand, and like I think probably
one of the hardest things to do,though, is is to bring them to
the water and just wait for itand be like you're gonna drink.
Come on, you want to drink I cantell you want to drink and
watch them walk away, and thenyou go and do it again, but like
(26:19):
this whole walk, it's theirwalk with christ, it's not yours
.
Yeah, all you can do is put it.
Plant the seed is plant theseed, and if they don't walk at
Wells Branch but they go andwalk somewhere else, I'm happy
with that.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
So good, all right.
So let's get to this nextquestion, and this is going to
be just a question out of thebag, if you will.
All right, let's see what I got.
Let's see what I got.
All right, let's see what I got.
Let's see what I got.
No, that is a no.
That is all the questions wehave in the bag today.
(26:55):
We should have some morequestions.
We need more questions.
So, listen, if you've got aquestion, you can text us at
737-231-0605.
We would love to hear from you.
We'd love to walk throughwhatever question you have and
we talk faith, culture andeverything in between.
So thanks so much for watchingFrom our house to yours.
Have an awesome week of worship.
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I am your host, pastor plec.
Joining me today is none otherthan nick drummond, back from
the past.
How are you, nick?
I'm doing pretty good yourself.
I'm doing well.
We, I've noticed recentlyyou've gone without the moniker
machine gun, nick.
Yes, can you please tell us alittle bit about that?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
well you know, as that past goes, I think that it
actions and and, uh, things thatwould happen weren't weren't
very godly, you know.
Yeah, so we're just kind ofchanging the way we're
(00:48):
approaching life.
Maybe not as violence is thevery last option, okay, that's
good, and only if, like,extremely applicable.
If we can't, you know, get awayfirst, okay, instead of you
know the moniker, machine Gun,nick, where violence was always,
you know meh Might have been upthere as number one.
Yeah, it might.
You know, moniker, machine gunnick, where violence was always.
You know, meh might have beenup there as number one.
Yeah, it might.
It might, you know, dependingon what the situation, we might
(01:08):
have went straight to it.
And you know I can violencebetter than you, okay, yeah, but
we don't want to do that.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
That's good.
That's good.
So how has like sanctificationfor you over the past year?
What does that look like?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
it's a rough road.
Um, well, I don't drink nearlyas much as I used to like almost
zero, that's good.
Uh, this the cursing, though ithappens sometimes is cut back
drastically.
Um, and you know the smokingproblem, that vice.
I'm not gonna say it's gone,but it's not near as what it
(01:45):
used to.
So what do you attribute thatto?
Speaker 1 (01:46):
because this is a.
This is one of the things Ithink people want to change and
they're like committed tochanging.
They're they're convinced thatchanging is the best thing.
But what, for you, was thething that got all those things
to come together?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
yeah, that it's got to be.
J I might have wanted to quitsmoking.
I never thought I was evergoing to have conversations
without dropping the F-bomb atleast 10 times and drinking.
I was like, well, I'm Scottish,that's what we do, right, and
it was never like I'm going toquit drinking.
For me, I was like, you know,it's only a little bit.
(02:25):
It wasn't like I was, you know,pounding a fifth a night or
anything.
I've had those, thoseexperiences, but it wasn't, you
know.
So it wasn't bad, right, right,and you just you go throughout
this searching for god and youfind that those vices aren't
needed.
Huh, so would you?
Speaker 1 (02:46):
find yourself just more in the presence of the Lord
, or would you?
Because whenever I hear that, Iusually, when I think about
your life and I think of, I justthink of like you know how,
like you, have you ever done alot of cooking and then you've
had like a skillet, just havecrud all stuck on it and the
only way you can get out you caneither A work real hard with
(03:09):
like a steel wool or somethingor you just let soak in some
Dawn for a while and usually thesoaking in Dawn is all it needs
.
It just takes a little bit ofwhile and then it just slides
right off.
So it seems like the moreyou've soaked in the Holy Spirit
, the more you've gottenexperience around Jesus, the
more that his goodness has, like, made the crud stick less.
(03:33):
Is that fair?
Yeah, yeah, that's good, allright.
Well, it's exciting to hearthat and I think that's just
it's inspirational for peoplethat are really sort of
struggling out there and notknowing kind of their next step
in their life, not sure whichroad to take.
Now we did have a question comein and I'm going to read it to
you from the Pastor Plek line ofquestions if you will, and it
(03:57):
goes like this I'm wrestlingwith reconciling the idea of, by
faith alone, sola fide, fromthe five solas of the
Reformation in light of James 2,20 through 20, 26.
How does that fit in with therest of Scripture that supports
the idea of sola fide, likeEphesians 2, 8 through 10?
Well, let's just go real quickand let's see if we can read
(04:22):
first James 2, 20 through 26.
I'm going to read it to you andthen I want you to give me your
first thought on thesescriptures.
So let me pull up.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
We're going with a knee-jerk reaction, right.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, absolutely.
I would love to hear your firstreaction because I think I
could probably bring to bear anycorrection needs.
All right, here it is.
James 2, 20 through 26 says butwould you like evident?
Oh, hold on, sorry, would youlike get the ESV?
(04:56):
But someone will say you havefaith and I have works.
Show me your faith apart fromyour works and I will show you
my faith by my works.
You believe that God is one youdo well, even the demons
believe and shudder.
Do you want to be shown, youfoolish person, that faith apart
(05:19):
from works is useless?
Was not Abraham, our father,justified by works when he
offered up his son Isaac on thealtar?
You see that faith was activealong with his works, and faith
was completed by his works andthe scripture was fulfilled.
That says Abraham believed Godand it was counted to him as
righteousness and he was calleda friend of God.
You see that a person isjustified by works and not by
faith alone.
(05:40):
And in the same way, it was notalso Rahab, the prostitute,
justified by works when shereceived the messengers and sent
them out by another way?
For as the body apart from thespirit is dead, so also faith
from apart from works is dead.
Okay, so register all that.
And now I'm going to read youEphesians 2, 8 through 10, which
(06:05):
is kind of a way different,wild way of thinking.
All right, for by grace youhave been saved through faith,
and this is not your own doing.
It is the gift of God, not aresult of works, so that no one
may boast, for we are hisworkmanship, creating Christ
Jesus, for good works which Godprepared beforehand that we
(06:25):
should walk in them.
So the question asks like howdo I reconcile these two things?
It feels like James and Paulare arguing against each other
as opposed to the same point.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Oh, I definitely agree on that right now, like
and so.
So, like I want to gochronological order.
Well, james has got to bebecause he's closer to the, to
the Jesus, right?
Yeah, so maybe he knows heknows a little bit more than
Paul on this one.
You know, that's that's how I'm, my brain is, is is looking at
this.
But yeah, like, because thenon-denominational church, we
(07:04):
believe that grace alone willsuffice.
Now my Catholic roots go.
Hey, you got to have grace andworks, right, so like, that's
kind of confusing.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Right, so I love.
So, yeah, it is, it's difficult.
So the question is is how canit possibly be both?
And with Scripture, you don'tpit them against one another,
because that doesn't work.
You don't fight.
Heaven isn't having a war ofwords.
And if it's all inspired, ifthis is a canonized gospel, how
(07:41):
do, sorry?
Canonized Word of God, andevery Word of God is equally
important.
How do, or sorry, canonize wordof God, and every word of God
is equally important.
How do you, how do you resolvethis conflict?
All right, so you want toharmonize the passages, and so
here's what I would say Faith isthe root, works is the fruit is
(08:05):
the root, works is the fruit.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
So I was kind of thinking about that in my mind,
as if you're walking with theLord and you are trying to be
more like Jesus, works are justgoing to automatically happen,
right.
But it's not going to be underthe pretense of if I do this
nice thing, I'm going to getsomething out of it.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Right, it's because I've been saved, I do this good
thing, yeah.
So I think Ephesiansestablished that faith is a sole
means by which we receive God'sgrace for salvation.
And then James clarifies thattrue faith is not merely an
intellectual assent, but aliving trust in God that
transforms a person's life,leading to good works.
(08:47):
Works are not the cause ofsalvation but the evidence of it
.
Because he says in James 2, doyou want me to show you, do you
want the evidence, that faithwithout works is dead?
So he says let me see if I canpull it up.
Yeah, do you want to be shown,you foolish person, that faith
(09:10):
apart from works is useless?
And then he goes to Abraham.
Well, we all know from Abrahamhas two parts of his story In
Genesis.
Let's see if I can find, okay.
(09:33):
So Genesis 15 is where Abrahambelieves God and it's credited
to him as righteousness.
In Genesis 22 is where God saystake your son, your only son,
isaac, whom you love, and go tothe land of Moriah and offer him
there as a burnt offering onone of the mountains of which I
(09:54):
shall show you.
So the very fact that he obeysGod comes back.
You know which one comes first?
Well, genesis 15 comes first.
Where he was, abraham believedGod and he was credited with
righteousness.
So they both show faith, right,his ability to act on what God
(10:16):
would have him do, because hebelieved that somehow God could
raise him from the dead.
That's what we know fromHebrews that the reason why he
went and took his son is he knewthat God would somehow raise
him from the dead.
That's what we know fromHebrews that the reason why he
went and took his son is he knewthat God would somehow raise
him from the dead.
That's how much trust he had inGod to go and obey him and
sacrifice him if he needed to.
Okay, so then you also haveRahab, who's mentioned.
(10:37):
Right, rahab is a prostitute,but she says the fear of God has
come all over us.
So she believes that Yahweh,the God of Israel, is going to
destroy Jericho, and sotherefore, she says I'm on your
team.
Don't forget about me, scarletthread.
(10:57):
I'm on the team when you guyscome to attack this thing, we
will be ready right here.
And so she was spared becauseshe acted based on belief.
Now, here's what I'm going totell you you cannot act unless
you believe you can't.
So for let's, even if someoneputs a gun to your head and says
(11:19):
don't smoke, well, you believethat they're going to pull the
trigger, so you are not going toput the cigarette to your lips.
That is an action based onbelief.
You cannot.
Uh, action does not precedebelief.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
That's the kind of thing where you're not looking
at me.
I'll get one over, or I mightjust light one up in front of
you with the gun in my face andbe like do it yeah.
This is hilarious.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
If you do that, you don't really believe I'm going
to shoot you, though.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Or I don't care.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Alright.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Which is a dumb thing to die on.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
But I mean, I guess people have died for dumber
things.
But I guess that's the point.
If you have faith in Jesus thathe has saved you, then you're
going to act in accordance withthat.
If you don't care, you're goingto do whatever.
Right at some point in Jesusthat he has saved you, then
you're going to act inaccordance with that.
If you don't care, you're goingto do whatever At some point.
(12:25):
You can't truly believe thatJesus died on the cross for your
sins and rose from the dead andhave no existential crisis of
understanding the depths of yoursorrow and sickness and then
just do whatever.
I agree with that.
But this is where the reason whyJames becomes so powerful.
He says it is possible to be ahearer of the word and not a
doer of the word, becauseclearly there are hypocrites all
(12:47):
over the place, and so whatthey're reflecting is they are a
Christian in doctrine andatheist in practice, and I think
that's what James is getting at.
Don't talk to me about yourfaith.
That has no action, becausethat seems worthless to me.
But you can't even have a faithto begin with unless God gives
(13:09):
it to you.
In fact, even James saysreceive the word with meekness,
the word that is implanted inyou.
So who's doing the planting?
It's not like you're plantingyourself, it's God is planting
the word in you of what you areto receive with meekness.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
It kind of goes back to the white knuckling right.
Yeah, like I can white knucklestuff all day long.
But how long are you going tobe able to white knuckle it
until you crack Right or have afall, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah, I totally agree .
I think that's where thistension of faith and works.
It should be one that we shouldbe examining.
In fact, paul, the writer ofEphesians, also says in 2
Corinthians 13, we shouldexamine ourselves to see if we
(14:09):
are really in the faith.
So take a look, and when youlook at yourself and go, has my
life changed?
Do I believe that Jesus died onthe cross for me?
Was there an existential crisisof some sort where
ontologically I was like I am amess unless God, who made me,
(14:30):
created me, unless he saves me?
That's the reality that mostpeople in general, nobody's
thinking like that.
But you're forced to think likethat with Paul's press for you
to examine yourself to see ifyou are truly in the faith.
And how would you know ifyou're truly in the faith?
You would look at your actionsand go because I believe this.
(14:52):
I have done that.
But we all know even Jesus saidyour actions don't define your
salvation right.
So you've got Jesus, who harpson people's actions without
faith.
Paul, who harps on your faithbeing before any action, and
(15:14):
then James who says make sureyou got the actions to meet up
with your faith and what Jesussays, like there may be.
Many of you say Lord, lord,didn't I prophesy in your name?
Didn't we do miracles in yourname?
He'd say depart from me.
I never knew you.
So doing amazing works, likereally healing, helping, doing
great things for people, doesnot save you.
(15:36):
And this becomes like here'swhere, if you were to look at
conservative and liberaltheology, liberal theology is
like we need to do some stuff,we need to show our faith by
what we do.
And I'm like, if you do that andyou don't actually believe, you
are creating hell on earth,because it's a bad counterfeit
(16:00):
of what heaven is like Meaningwhat you're trying to do is
bring kingdom without the king.
In other words, I want everyoneto get along, I want everyone
to be reconciled, I want thereto be no poverty, but the
reality is, if you're notfocused on the king, they're
still poor.
If you're doing miracles inJesus' name but you don't have
faith that Jesus is the Lord,and then all of a sudden, all
(16:24):
your miracles in his name arenot a testament to Jesus,
they're a testament to someoneelse Yourself, yourself or maybe
even Satan that you could sayI'm doing this in Jesus' name,
but the reality is you're doingit for your own fame, and that
pride reveals that you're doingit for your father, the devil.
So there you go.
(16:46):
I think this is something thatevery Christian should wrestle
with, but ultimately you have togo to first cause.
Do you believe somethingbecause you do it, or do you do
something because you believe it?
Speaker 2 (17:04):
I ouch, yeah, because before I came to christ I would
have done something right, butit might not have been like, oh,
look at me, look at me.
But I would thought, yeah, Idid this great thing that takes
away.
You know, maybe one or two ofthe things I just did that were
really bad that week, you know Iwas raised a catholic like
(17:26):
there's a lot of guilt.
Week, you know I was raised aCatholic Like there's a lot of
guilt in there.
You know, right, right, right.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Right, and I think that is.
I think people genuinely wantto follow God and they're like
when they have the tension ofwhen they look at somebody whose
life is all about the doing,like most liberal people are
going to probably quote James 1,27,.
(17:56):
Religion that's pure andundefiled is this to visit
widows and orphans in theirdistress.
However, there's a second partof that that usually gets left
out and to keep oneselfunstained from the world.
So don't let the world's viewsof sin, righteousness and
judgment affect your view of aholy God and who he has called
(18:20):
you to be.
And so looking after widows andorphans, I think is important.
It's close to God's heart, andI think we should be definitely
taking care of those who aremarginalized, but not at the
expense of becoming stained bythe world and saying we're just
going to love you, to kind ofgive a blank check, to do
whatever you want to do, becausethen you're now doing the very
(18:41):
same thing that James isaccusing people of, of saying I
believe in God but I'm livinghowever I want, and so that
clearly can't be what James ismeaning he's talking.
I mean, in fact, he's the onethat's talking about like what
causes quarrels and dissensionsamong you in chapter four.
Isn't it anger, strife,sensuality?
Isn't that driving your souland not the things of God?
(19:04):
And I think that's where a lotof people find themselves is
that it's the sensuous, theanger, the jealousy, the
striving that happens, thatcreates a lot of conflict.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Well, no, I mean, that's like saying, hey, I do
all this good stuff and butthese things, you know, like
some of the stuff we have goingon today mutilation of your body
you know you feel like youshould be a canine instead of a
human right and just going alongwith that.
You know that doesn't reallyapply with the Bible's teachings
(19:46):
.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
And even though you might perceive that you do good
acts, you're not living the lifeor holding people accountable
by the word of the Lord, andthat definitely can doom one's
existence.
I'd say.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
For sure, but I do want people to understand that
there is a real reality offeeling like your work is
insufficient.
I feel like, pastorally, I wantto help people see that their
faith or their works probablyare insufficient, which is fine,
because we point back toChrist's finished work on the
cross.
Anytime you point to yourself,you're always going to be
(20:25):
lacking and so you don't boast.
That's why you shouldn't have,you know, self-esteem.
You need christ's team.
You don't boast in yourstrengths and your
accomplishments.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
You boast in your weaknesses and how christ more
than made up for, uh, yourweaknesses with his finished
work on the cross well, thatkind of ties into, you know,
when I got out of the army,because I honestly would have
sat down you know been in combatso many times but I would have
(20:55):
looked you in the eyes and saidI never did enough.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Right, oh, I feel like that.
I just went and enrolled andgot my VA benefits, like I'm
starting my VA health benefits.
I didn't even know I had.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Where have you been?
I?
Speaker 1 (21:05):
have.
I just felt like I didn'treally deserve that.
I you know, there's probablythere are people way worse off
than me.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Hold on this this is from this.
It was an officer.
We'll forgive him for that, butthis is from a guy that jumped
out of airplanes.
You know I don't really howevermany ruck marches you were in
ranger school.
Okay, if you don't knowanything about ranger school,
that's like 62, 64 days.
64 days absolute brutalitywhere, like, you're not even
(21:35):
being fed right, they're sleepdeprived and you just gotta go
right and he's over here, like Ididn't do enough to go see the
va right, yeah, that's how Imean.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
I think that's in every a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Oh, definitely and so I actually had my first meeting
with the va on.
Yeah, that's how I mean, Ithink that's in every a lot of
people.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Oh, definitely, and so I actually had my first
meeting with the va on august.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Uh, fourth, pretty excited about that, uh going to
go and I got enrolled and thenI'm now going to get like a my
first va doctor visit, orwhatever I guess you know, and
I'm 100 disabled and I'm lookingat it as a standpoint of like I
don't have my, like my handicapplacard in my truck and I'm
(22:09):
like, but I could put one inthere right now, and then days
when, like, I'm walking around,like I'm 80 and I'm like, oh
yeah, oh man, like you know, butit's, it's one of those things
like am I really gonna say thatI'm that disabled, right, even
though Even though, yeah, kindof I am, like you know, hand
goes numb, ringing in the ears?
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Oh yeah, I have all that yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Yeah, and I had a VA my whole arm goes numb.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Ooh yeah, all the way from I had a bad jump.
I did like 10, 15 rearsomersaults after this jump on
Sicily Drop Zone at Fort Braggand my head was ringing and I go
.
I had to have broken my arm butit was just nerve damage yeah,
yeah, geronimo drop zone, uh,fort park, louisiana I.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
I remember gaining canopy control, which is when
you grab a hold of risers,looking up and being like it is
really windy out here.
I don't remember anything elseuntil I felt like when I was
coming to it felt like I wasgoing backwards on a snowmobile
back in michigan as my head goesalong.
(23:19):
You know the drop zone sopainful my cavalar because we
had the old k-pots back then,but it was on crooked so I hit
my head wicked hard, you know.
A medic came running out andwas like Sergeant Drummond, are
you okay?
I'm like yeah, why, you know?
Because you don't want to be awuss.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Well, and that was back in the day when we took 800
milligrams of ibuprofen foreach pill.
Do you remember that?
Yes, I didn't realize that wasa lot.
We got two of them.
Yeah, two of them every time,yeah like here you go here's 800
milligrams each pill, so 600milligrams of ibuprofen was like
the standard.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Uh, we call it ranger candy, yeah absolutely, and and
you know, and so I'm like, I'mdazed, dazed the entire freaking
that whole day, right.
I actually looked at thatex-wife that night and was like,
if I don't wake up in themorning, I died, yeah, died, I
got a concussion.
She's like don't you go see?
Speaker 1 (24:09):
I'm like uh-uh you don't go see the medic, you
don't go see the medic.
You might as well just putyourself in line with the
chaplain to go leave the army,anyway.
So yeah no matter what.
I think that I've now sort ofas I've matured over the past 20
years.
I actually went to my uh, 20year reunion last year I think
(24:31):
it was, and yeah, and that was apowerful time to see all those
guys and and then I was like,you know, I probably did like a
lot of them were like a hundredpercent disabled and I was like,
oh, I guess I did have a littlechallenge when I was there.
Anyway, all that to say, it'ssometimes hard to not be the
(24:57):
person that does it all, and sograce flies in the face of any
sort of like look at what I havedone.
And anytime you start pointingat what you have done, that's
when Jesus says depart from me.
I never knew you.
But if you point to Jesus andsay, look what you've done on my
behalf and I'm so grateful,that's where your salvation
rests, not in what you've donefor Jesus.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
I think that's really a tough thing when you're
moving, when you're firstgetting into your walk with
Christ is to realize that it isthe glory of God, not the glory
of Nick, because at first I'vebeen like, look what I did.
I brought this person to thechurch, right.
When it comes down to is, lookwhat Jesus did.
All I did was walk in there andwhisper his words His words,
(25:37):
not mine.
I couldn't come up with thatstuff.
Yeah, like you know, that's,like you know, amazing.
If you read the book and youlook at the whole story and how
it aligns with the Old Testament, aligns with the New Testament,
and Jesus just comes through asthe Lamb and performs all the
miracles that were talked aboutin the Old Testament.
(25:58):
I didn't have an understanding,a grasp of that and then you
walk somebody through that rightand, and like I think probably
one of the hardest things to do,though, is is to bring them to
the water and just wait for itand be like you're gonna drink.
Come on, you want to drink I cantell you want to drink and
watch them walk away, and thenyou go and do it again, but like
(26:19):
this whole walk, it's theirwalk with christ, it's not yours
.
Yeah, all you can do is put it.
Plant the seed is plant theseed, and if they don't walk at
Wells Branch but they go andwalk somewhere else, I'm happy
with that.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
So good, all right.
So let's get to this nextquestion, and this is going to
be just a question out of thebag, if you will.
All right, let's see what I got.
Let's see what I got.
All right, let's see what I got.
Let's see what I got.
No, that is a no.
That is all the questions wehave in the bag today.
(26:55):
We should have some morequestions.
We need more questions.
So, listen, if you've got aquestion, you can text us at
737-231-0605.
We would love to hear from you.
We'd love to walk throughwhatever question you have and
we talk faith, culture andeverything in between.
So thanks so much for watchingFrom our house to yours.
Have an awesome week of worship.
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