October 2, 2025 • 44 mins
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368: A stadium filled with worship, national leaders in the room, and the gospel preached without flinching—some moments refuse to stay “cultural.” We unpack why Charlie Kirk's memorial became a spiritual inflection point and how it’s stirring unexpected courage, repentance, and renewed interest in church across the country. From claims of martyrdom to the evidence behind motive, we grapple with the costs of public truth-telling and the conviction that it’s better to face danger than to live afraid of speaking what’s true.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:05):
And welcome back to Pastor Plex Podcast.
I'm your host, Pastor Plek,along with Pastor Holland, and
we're glad you're here.
Thank you.
Glad to be here.
You know, listen, hey, we've hada lot going on in our country of
late, and I just want to kind ofgive a quick update on on kind
of what's all happened, where weare, and all the things.
So basically, we're coming.
(00:25):
This is right now, just a coupledays after the memorial service
of Charlie Kirk.
And did you get to observe that?
SPEAKER_00 (00:35):
I was at church all day on Sunday.
ECC in the morning, and then uh,you know, the branch in the
evening.
And so uh watch a bunch of clipsof it though.
Watch some of it afterwards.
What was the highlight view ofthe experience?
Uh I love that there wasworships for so much of it.
Um, and it was Chris Tomlin.
Uh I know we have some ChrisTomlin haters.
(00:56):
There's a lot of Chris Tomlinhaters out there, but listen,
he's pretty solid.
You know what?
It was cool to see like kind ofa mainstream worship guy.
Um Phil Wickham was there.
Yeah.
Is he mainstream?
I think so.
He at least used to be.
Yeah, Brandon Lake, he's likeElevation Church, right?
I have no idea.
But I just I love that there wasso much worship.
There was so much um straight upgospel preaching.
(01:19):
There was um, you know,scripture, there was Erica, you
know, forgiving um the shooter,uh, just her own personal
forgiveness, right?
Um, and really, I think showingthe heart of Jesus on the cross
or Stephen when he was beingmartyred.
Um, all of it was just sopowerful.
(01:40):
To see public officials there,to see, you know, pastors and
apologists, worship leaders, itwas awesome.
SPEAKER_01 (01:46):
Yeah, Brandon Lake is from Seacoast Church in
Charleston, South Carolina.
Oh, okay.
But yeah, it was really cool tosee all those worship leaders.
And then when has there everbeen like the president, vice
president, secretary of stateall been at the same event?
SPEAKER_00 (02:04):
Uh that was wild.
Yeah, good question.
I was MLK's memorial.
The pr uh the president was notthere, but the vice president
was, and other public officialsand members of Congress or
something like this.
SPEAKER_01 (02:15):
This was, I mean, crazy.
And the gospel was shared like abunch.
Yeah.
Like uh and so there was, youknow, roughly, I think 200,000
people there, I guess in person.
In person is kind of weirdbecause they're they have the
in-person inside the uh Arizonauh Cardinals Stadium, and I
(02:38):
don't know how many of thatheld, but there were several
stadiums around Arizona that hadoverflow, which was just wild.
Yeah.
Wild that they had that manyoverflow stadiums I don't know,
I don't know if it was stadiumsor what, but I think it was
200,000 people in person.
And then um when I was watching,and I don't know what you know,
like when I was watching on on Ithink Turning Points Stream,
(03:01):
yeah, stream.
I think it was like 600,000 uhlike at whenever I was, you
know, looking at it.
SPEAKER_00 (03:07):
Yeah.
So and not only was the gospelpreached, but like Christian
values that have you know notreally been promoted culturally,
yeah, um, were really beingpromoted.
So, like you know, one of thethings Erica said, Women, I have
a challenge for you.
Be virtuous.
Our strength is found in God'sdesign for our role.
(03:30):
Wow.
We are the guardians, theencouragers, the preservers,
guard your heart.
Everything you do flows from it.
And if you're a mother, pleaserecognize that is the single
most important ministry youhave.
Saying the value of motherhoodand God's design for the role of
women being publicly promoted.
Man, that was crazy.
(03:50):
Um also said to the menwatching, um, accept Charlie's
challenge and embrace truemanhood.
Be strong and courageous foryour families.
Love your wives and lead them,love your children and protect
them, be the spiritual head ofyour home, be a leader worth
following.
Just like, dang, that that wasso awesome.
SPEAKER_01 (04:10):
Yeah.
So uh update on those numbers,about a hundred thousand people,
70,000 in the stadium, and then30,000 overflow.
But yeah, that is that is such auh not what you would expect in
our culture.
And but you know, such a youngman, uh, such a guy that that
(04:30):
led people to Christ.
Um, so I've heard this, I thinkJosh Howerton posted this.
I don't know where he got itfrom, but it was just really
cool.
Uh, that that Charlie Kirk is amartyr.
And the reason why we'd say thatis we'd say that John the
Baptist was a martyr.
Right.
Right, and John the Baptist, whydid he die?
(04:51):
For telling uh Herodias that hermarriage to Herod and leaving uh
Philip was wrong.
And yeah, and calling out Herodhimself for having her right,
right, and calling out Herodhimself, and then so he got his
head served on a platter uh forthat, which that's you know,
(05:12):
like was that a politicalassassination?
Yeah, but I mean there's not oneChristian who doesn't consider
John the Baptist a martyr.
SPEAKER_00 (05:20):
Yeah, right.
And so I Because his politicalum, you know, his yeah, his
stance, his uh what's it called,rebuke of a political figure
came from a place of faith andthe morals of scripture.
Wild.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:37):
So Charlie Kirk then, for whatever you know,
let's say, you know, I think itwas a guy that was dating a
trans dude.
He killed him probably for hisuh view on marriage, oddly.
It's kind of odd that it's sortof someone's view on marriage is
what might get them killed.
Isn't that wild?
SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
Yeah.
I mean, we don't we don't know,right?
No, there's nothing, nostatement of like why or
anything.
We just have kind ofspeculation.
But yeah, you you assume it'sviews he held that he was public
about.
Um but uh yeah, what um whatJohn the Baptist did was uh
speak out publicly to a publicleader and political figure
(06:21):
about immorality, you know, andand proclaimed essentially the
Christian truth of Scripture,and he died for it.
SPEAKER_01 (06:29):
And uh Yeah, there clearly we got the evidence for
his motive is after theshooting, Robinson allegedly
texted his romantic partner.
Uh, I had enough of his hatred.
Some hate can't be negotiatedout.
And he also left a note underhis keyboard saying, I had the
opportunity to take out CharlieKirk, and I'm going to take it
after the shooting.
(06:50):
Uh Robinson probably told hisfather during a phone call that
he had killed Kirk becausethere's too much evil and Kirk
spreads too much hate.
So essentially it's wild thatit's uh and one of his things
was there was one bullet thatsaid, Hey, fascist, fascist
catch, interpreting interpretedas targeting Kirk Kirk's
far-right ideology.
(07:11):
Anyway, it was it was kind ofwild to see that as being uh the
the incentive uh or incentivemotive.
Uh Robinson's mother also toldinvestigators he had become more
political over the past year,leaning left and supporting
pro-gay and trans rights.
And at a family dinner shortlybefore the event, he expressed
hatred for Kirk's views on thesetopics.
His Discord chats hours beforethe arrest and social media also
(07:34):
show scattered anti-conservativecomments.
SPEAKER_00 (07:37):
Wow.
Well, related to, you know,turning this toward like the
spiritual, one of the thingsJ.D.
Vance said was um at thememorial, uh Charlie suffered a
terrible fate, but I think it isnot the worst fate.
It is better to face a gunmanthan to live your life afraid to
speak the truth.
(07:57):
Wow.
It's better to be persecuted foryour faith than to deny the
kingship of Christ.
Better to die a young man inthis world than to sell your
soul for an easy life with nopurpose, no risk, no love, and
no truth.
I think that kind of reality iswhat is really sparking a lot of
spiritual revival.
SPEAKER_01 (08:15):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (08:16):
Um, because one thing I think is really
interesting, so Charlie Kirkwould say um that he would use
politics to get to Jesus,something that a lot of people
were um would really warnagainst.
A lot of pastors would be like,don't bring that up.
And you know where that camefrom.
SPEAKER_01 (08:35):
Billy Graham during his crusades would say, I stay
out of politics because I don'twant to alienate someone from
hearing the gospel message.
However, I think now, I thinkthe culture has moved so far out
of that realm that nobody wantsto have a conversation unless it
gets to like, here's what Godwould have to say about that and
(08:57):
why you need to repent.
Uh, because we're so far from aum a culturally Christian
worldview.
So that when he spoke of ideasand then he rooted them back to
the Bible, it blew people'sminds.
SPEAKER_00 (09:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
And you know, speak apologeticsand politics became like uh, you
know, a really powerful way toactually point people to Christ
in the gospel.
So um that's pretty huge.
Yeah.
I think we can learn a lot fromthat as pastors, as Christians,
even, to say, like, hey, youknow, this doesn't mean that
(09:32):
everyone needs to go out andstart, you know, like initiating
these conversations witheveryone.
But to be able to say, like, no,it's a legitimate way to reach
people with the gospel is bystarting with something, you
know, that is culturallyrelevant and tracing the logic
of it back to eternal truthsthat are found in scripture.
All legislation and politics andgovernment and stuff is related
(09:56):
to eternal moral principles atat if you trace it all the way
back, right?
Um and so, yeah, when you whenyou're debating a political
issue, you can yeah, use that asa way to talk about the truths
of scripture and then eventuallypoint to Jesus in the gospel.
SPEAKER_01 (10:12):
And that's essentially I know this sounds
wild, right?
It's essentially being allthings to all people that you
might win some.
You're uh hitting a felt need,which is a political answer that
then drives back to the deeperneed, which is ultimately
spiritual.
Uh and so I think that's justtrue of all evangelism.
It just feels like it'srelationally uh distancing when
(10:35):
you start with an argument.
SPEAKER_00 (10:37):
Yeah.
Um and that's not always thebest way to start.
That was his deal.
He'd go and it'd be like, hey,argue with me, prove me wrong,
you know.
But in our personalrelationships, you know, that's
it's not always the best way tostart.
SPEAKER_01 (10:48):
Right.
But uh yeah, and it's wildthough that it worked.
I mean, I've been seeing, youknow, testimony after testimony
of someone watching Charlie Kirktalk and defend his position.
Now, it didn't reach the personhe was interacting with, but all
the people that sort of tuned into watch the argument that had
the same belief system, itconnected them.
SPEAKER_00 (11:09):
So I also think internally, we in our just
spirit and our the way that wesubconsciously think, you know,
this this kind of internal um uhprocessing and um discerning and
stuff that we that we do withouteven realizing it.
We know in our gut there is aconnection between politics and
(11:34):
um Christianity.
I think we know um that there'sa connection between politics
and spirituality, politics andGod, religion.
And so I think the reason youknow, so many people are are
kind of uh hungry for andinterested in this right now is
because there's like, you know,he was this person who said,
yes, there is, and here's whatit is.
You know, he would connect thesethings.
(11:54):
Whether you agreed with him ornot, it's just acknowledging,
like instead of hearing fromyour pastor, don't bring up
politics, or hearing frompoliticians, don't bring faith
into this.
Rather, you know, it's this ideaof like, no, these things are
definitely connected together.
Um, and to act like they're notis like disorienting internally.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01 (12:14):
Yeah, well, because what we're wanting is law,
right?
If we want, and politicsultimately gets us to a
political system, whichultimately gets us to what laws
are right, what is right, whatis wrong.
So if you are legislating whatis right and what is wrong,
right, you are legislatingmorality.
So therefore, where you get yourmorality from matters.
And I think that has that hasbeen the struggle for me
(12:36):
personally, for me personally, Ididn't want to engage in the
political fray because and Ithink this is where I in the in
the or the in the teens, oh youknow, 2013 to 2019, I I was
struggling wrapping my headaround um the culture push.
And I think back was it 2014 orso, whenever we legalized gay
(13:00):
marriage.
2015.
2015.
I think it was at that pointwhere I stopped punching up at
the church, so to speak, likeyou know, like big bad church,
and I started punching up at theculture, just me personally.
Like you're always kind of youknow, what do you what are you
arguing against?
It was, I think before that, Iwas like, hey, legalism, bad,
(13:23):
trusting Jesus, good.
And then when all of a suddenthe there wasn't there there
wasn't a Christian culture, youknow, to kind of push back
against, all of a sudden yourealize I am now pushing against
culture that is an enemy towardthe gospel because we don't even
agree what right and wrong isbecause we've abandoned that.
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
And so some people have said to me, um, the New
Testament doesn't say anythingabout, you know, politics and
government.
It's all about, you know, justlike the church, right?
And I think that's reallyinteresting that people think
like that now.
It's not how Christians havetended to think about things um
(14:04):
for most of church history.
Um and but but it's interestingbecause in America we have um a
uh constitutional republic anddemocratic republic.
And so we are voting for electedofficials who will represent us,
right?
And so we have a lot of say inwhat the laws of the land are,
(14:27):
as opposed to like a monarchywhere a king just decides.
So where the the Bible has a lotof instructions for kings.
Here's how you ought to rule,here's what's right, here's
what's wrong.
Proverbs is full of that.
Um, the book of kings, first andsecond kings, right?
Examples of what's right andwrong.
Um, Deuteronomy uh has a whole,you know, a whole section,
(14:48):
Deuteronomy 17, 14 or 17.
Uh check me on it.
But uh the law for kings.
Here's what it, here's what aking ought to do and what he
ought not to do.
And so all of that, we we go,okay, in a place like United
States of America, we um we areessentially like who are in
(15:09):
charge.
You know, we're the people.
It's uh it's the people who makethe laws of the land.
Therefore, all of that wisdomabout how kings ought to operate
um is applicable to us ascitizens who vote in this
republic.
And so the Bible actually doesspeak a lot to um how you ought
to rule and legislate and governand things like that.
(15:30):
Um, it just used to be relevantto a king of the whole people,
right?
But for us, it's relevant toevery citizen of America.
So here's I think the the push.
That makes sense.
Yeah, no, totally bad.
That's mainly Old Testament,though.
But I would say that, you know,the New Testament, um Well,
Jesus is a king, thereforeinherently political.
SPEAKER_01 (15:48):
Yes, exactly.
Like no matter what you do,you're gonna have a political
situation because you can't likeif you're gonna you're not gonna
as a Christian, you're not gonnago, I want innocent babies to
die.
Like you you would that is youthat you can't um take that away
from your um personal view, evenif it gets political, that's
(16:11):
just they're entwined.
Yeah.
Okay, so but here's the the Ithink the pushback has come.
Okay, right here.
I feel like here's there'salways been, or at least in the
past, let's call it 70 years,the the pushback has been um
don't you think that uh the warsof the past, all these
(16:33):
differences in religion havecaused so much bloodshed, and so
many people have died, and somany people were um persecuted
for their faith, non-faith, youknow, the witch trials, uh, you
know, Christian, CatholicInquisitions.
Uh what if you if you go downthis road, it's inevitable that
(16:54):
you get to this corrupt worldwhere you use Jesus to kill off
your enemy, and then there's athis very evil bed partner of
religion and uh politics.
I think that's where people justthink they always go there.
Um and I don't know if itnecessarily has to go there.
SPEAKER_00 (17:11):
Yeah.
Uh so where the New Testamentdoes speak to this, I think, um
a couple of ways.
Romans 13 and Matthew 28, whenyou think about the Great
Commission, make disciples ofall nations, what what is the
what is the end goal of thatlook like?
If you what does it look like tothoroughly disciple a nation?
Obviously, that is going to umuh uh impact its laws, customs,
(17:36):
traditions, leaders.
You go into you go into acountry where um they sacrifice
children, for instance.
Yeah.
There's a law where, hey, if youum want to, you know, be an
elected official, you have tosacrifice one of your sons.
Yeah.
And so not only do you teachthem spiritual things, but you
(17:56):
also would aim to change thelaws of that land so that you
don't have to sacrifice yourchild to be a civil leader.
Right, right.
So discipling a nation involvesthe spiritual church level
stuff, but also um works its wayinto the laws, customs,
traditions, leadership of thosenations to where what does a
thoroughly discipled nationlooks look like?
(18:18):
It's self-consciously Christianfrom um uh the leadership all
the way down, you know, from thegrassroots up and leadership
down.
Um and so what what um peopleare afraid of though, what you
brought up, yeah, is that okay,then don't you have like um
power corrupting thoseChristians and them using um
(18:38):
their power to kind of like killoff their enemies, right?
So how what how do you how doyou stop that?
Or does that mean that youshould just not even seek a
Christian nation at all?
SPEAKER_01 (18:50):
Right.
Yeah, and I I think that's theproblem, right?
I think people are looking at ifif I if we have a Christian
nation, then that Christiannation then's gonna outlaw other
religions and then m kill themfor blasphemy.
And I think that that that fearmight even be wise to say, like,
hey, we need to prevent thatfrom happening.
(19:11):
But yeah, yeah, at the sametime, you're gonna get your laws
from somewhere.
SPEAKER_00 (19:16):
Exactly.
And if you're not gonna have aChristian nation, you're gonna
have some sort of nation.
Yeah, you're gonna have a paganwitchcraft nation or Muslim
nation.
There's no such thing, a lot ofpeople like to say, you know, a
neutral, there's no such thingas neutral.
Your morality comes fromsomewhere.
Uh every nation has a God.
And and if you go, well, no, wedon't.
(19:37):
If we're we're atheists, we'resecular, what well then the
state becomes the god, andwhoever's in charge makes the
rules, and you know, um youcan't, you don't have any,
they're not accountable toanyone in a you know, in a human
level.
They're just accountable tothemselves, and that's like a
total setup for tyranny, youknow.
(19:57):
Whereas with a Christian nation,you you have a standard of God's
word that leaders are heldaccountable to, to where if they
start acting like tyrants, youcan go, no, you're not operating
as Christ would have youoperate.
Um that's very relevant to theum American Revolution.
(20:17):
It's relevant to um, you know,the abolition of slavery in
America.
It it it was because of aChristian culture that they were
able to say, hey, don't webelieve that the Bible says all
people are created equal inGod's image, Genesis 1, that we
all come from Adam, Acts 17?
Well, if that's true, thenpeople shouldn't be subject to
(20:39):
lifelong hereditary race-basedslavery.
Right.
That was Lincoln's argument.
Um uh MLK, when he you knowprotested uh racial inequality,
he rooted it in uh, you know,Isaiah's vision, um he rooted it
in Genesis 1, he rooted it inscripture.
With without a Christianculture, those arguments
disappear.
Right.
(20:59):
But with a Christian,self-consciously Christian
culture, you actually have astandard to appeal to to say,
hey, we shouldn't treat peopledifferently because of the color
of their skin, because the Biblesays this.
SPEAKER_01 (21:11):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (21:11):
Without the Bible says this in a culture or a
nation, then it's just youropinion versus mine.
It's subjective.
So okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:18):
So I think that gets the problem of like, or maybe
was this addressed in the earlydays of the United States?
And Thomas Jefferson writes theletter to a church, right?
He writes his letter aboutseparate there's a wall of
separation between the churchand the states.
And what that meant was thechurch with this, the government
(21:40):
was not going to interfere withthe church.
It wasn't a the government willnever have the the church
involved in it.
SPEAKER_00 (21:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So he's writing to DanburyBaptist Church, right?
And reassuring them government'snot going to interfere with your
worship.
Remember where America camefrom, American Revolution, you
had the Church of Englandrequiring you to um be Anglican,
essentially, right?
(22:09):
Yeah.
You had to like, you had you hadto do, you had to do the sign of
the cross, you had to um, youknow, be baptized in this
particular denomination.
Right.
Um, so forcing a particular umuh form of Christianity on
people where Baptists would say,that goes against my conscience.
I don't want to baptize mybabies.
Right.
(22:29):
I I want to baptize, you know,believers' baptism.
I don't want to, you know, havethis view of communion.
And if you don't have that view,then you know you're in big
trouble with the state.
Right.
And so the formation of America,the freedom of religion was not
meant to be interpreted asfreedom to be Christian, Jewish,
Hindu, Muslim, et cetera.
(22:50):
Freedom to worship the God ofthe Bible, the Christian God,
according to your conscience andyour interpretation of scripture
and your denomination.
So Presbyterians, Baptists, youknow, you had a bunch of
different denominations at thispoint, even some Catholics.
Um, but so uh they were gettingaway from that.
Thomas Jefferson is encouragingDanbury Baptist Church, hey,
(23:12):
don't worry.
Your constitutional right tofreedom of religion is going to
remain protected.
No one's gonna force you to beAnglican.
SPEAKER_01 (23:22):
So what at what point did we move from, like,
hey, we want this to be a youknow, a nation full of
Christians or a Christiannation, as like several
presidents say it's a Christiannation.
Uh what shifted?
What made it like kind of leavethe um hey, we're we love Jesus,
(23:45):
you know, Abraham Lincoln, youknow, he's calling for like a
national day of humiliationprayer and like April 30th of
1863 or something.
Yes.
Like it's wild to watch that.
Like he's saying we need torepent.
I mean, as a nation, repent.
SPEAKER_00 (23:59):
Yeah.
So naming God Almighty and thatthe you know, the Senate's
behind this, Congress is behindthis, saying we all need to do
this because they viewed civilwar as God's judgment on them
for their national sin andsaying we need to get right with
God and seek his favor andblessing again.
Wild.
Yeah.
Calling for the entire country,and and no one said that that
(24:21):
was unconstitutional.
Yeah, no one even blinked aneye.
Like, all right, cool.
75 years or so after the FirstAmendment, uh Bill of Rights.
SPEAKER_01 (24:29):
Right.
Okay, so so then you you moveforward, let's move forward a
little bit further.
At some point, things start todrift off the cliff where um the
world is influencing governmentmore than the church is
influencing government.
Where do you feel like thatshift happened?
SPEAKER_00 (24:50):
Well, and so um like 10 years before um that
proclamation of prayer fromLincoln, there was this report
that came out by the U.S.
House Judiciary Committee wherethey were already warning about
um they're they're responding topublic, you know, the public
calling for m stricterseparation between church and
(25:12):
state.
Essentially, what what it saysin the report is that um the
government and Christianitywould be entirely divorced.
And so people were calling forthat in the 1850s.
Yes.
And so you have a legislativebody in the 1850s saying that
would be um self-destructive ifwe did that.
Christianity has always been apart of this country.
(25:35):
Um, freedom of religion was notabout removing Christianity um
from the public life or ouridentity as a nation, it was
about having unity between thedifferent denominations.
If and so what they say in thisreport, um actually, I'll just
I'll read part of it.
I have it pulled up.
Yeah.
Um it must be considered umChristianity must be considered
(25:58):
as the foundation on which thewhole structure of this country
rests.
Laws will not have permanence orpower without the sanction of
religious sentiment, without afirm belief that there is a
power above us that will rewardour virtues and punish our
vices.
In this age, there can be nosubstitute for Christianity.
That in its general principlesis the great conservative
(26:19):
element on which we must relyfor the purity and permanence of
free institutions.
This was the religion of thefounders of the republic, and
they expected it to remain thereligion of their descendants.
That's wild.
Okay, so very strongly, youcannot separate this thing.
That's not what the FirstAmendment means.
SPEAKER_01 (26:35):
Yeah.
And then um so what happened,okay.
Let's just I w I was justthinking, probably one of the
things that also people pushback on like Christianity
involving in laws isprohibition.
I don't know if you rememberthis.
Yeah, not that you were there.
Uh but prohibition came from thetemperance movement of women.
(26:55):
Women who were sick and tired oftheir husbands just being drunk
all day, right, uh, or hangingout in the saloons, and so they
go and start protesting all overthe globe, or all over the
globe, all over the country, andthey're tired of their husbands
being drunk, they're tired ofyou know alcoholism being
all-time high, and they're justthey're they're pressing
(27:18):
politics, change this, becauseyou know, shut down saloons,
shut down the alehouses, shut itdown.
It's a complete mess.
Um, our children aren't beingraised.
We need men back in culture.
Isn't it wild?
Yeah, the women were saying, weneed men, and that's where it
kind of came from.
They're all their men weredrunk.
And now, to be fair, you know,there wasn't women's suffrage,
(27:40):
but that fact that women'ssuffrage came from a lot of
abuse and them saying, like,hey, how come like this pathetic
guy that I'm married to who's analcoholic, I need to go and
provide.
I need I need wages that areequal.
I need to be able to vote.
And anyway, so that's that'sreally what kind of came about
is women grew really strongbecause of a temperance
(28:01):
movement, and then eventuallybanned alcohol in the United
States, which was a completemess uh in so many ways.
But it's wild to see how um Ithink what people are afraid of
is like, look at that.
That's what religion did.
Well, it it leaves out thebackground of the complete
disaster that men were uh in thelate 1800s, uh, even into the
(28:23):
early 1900s when it came toalcohol.
Anyway, I don't know where thatI think that's a pushback of
like prohibition is too much.
You're now getting into mypersonal life where religion has
no business in a sense.
SPEAKER_00 (28:34):
Yeah.
Um, so like I think a good wayto think about it is you know,
people have seen maybe some ofthe disastrous results of um
using of the Christianity umfused with state power, right?
And have said we don't wantChristianity fused with state
(28:58):
power.
Um and instead, let's go theneutral route.
Right.
It's not really a real route,though.
There's no no there is noneutral.
So, you know, it you you eitherend up something fills that
spot.
Something has to decideobjective truth, morality,
what's right and wrong, whatlaws are gonna be.
So it it it'll either be secularhumanism that will lead to um
(29:20):
declining birth rates, abortion,suicide, self-destruction, or
it'll lead to um uh Islam orHinduism, like something will
fill that spot.
So instead of seeing, this is mytake on it, instead of seeing
the you know bad things thathave happened in you know
certain times with um Christiannations or Christian laws and
(29:42):
stuff like that, and abandoningthat, saying, what is a better
way to do Christian laws,Christian culture, Christian
nation?
What is a way that is going tobe pleasing to God that's going
to be good for all people,whether you're Christian or not?
Um because if laws are based onmorality, well, who has the best
morality?
Christianity.
The Bible.
(30:05):
It is.
It is weird.
I think Tim Keller.
SPEAKER_01 (30:07):
If you can abandon it completely, you hit to reform
it.
Right.
So Tim Keller pushed back onthis idea of Christians like
involving himself in politicsprimarily because he saw how
much damage in the Europeanworld Christianity ruling,
whatever, did.
(30:27):
And I'm like, but that is such.
So let's say you become thepresident.
Would you then say he saidactually he said the the
Christianity grows best and doesbest in an oppressed world?
And that well, what happens whenyou become the majority and
you're no longer oppressed?
Then what do you do?
(30:48):
Just hand over authority to agodless person to say it's an
unsustainable vision.
SPEAKER_00 (30:52):
It makes sense for a time.
Right.
It is true that Christianity canthrive in oppressed situations.
Obviously, we see that in thebook of Acts.
SPEAKER_01 (31:00):
And we see it currently like in Iran or China
or wherever.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:03):
But if you go, okay, well, what happens when we're
successful at making disciplesand we start to become the
majority culture?
Um, then do you, yeah, like yousaid, do you hand over all
authority?
You step down.
So you have to think about Paulreally remember when he tried to
lead um King Agrippa to faith.
And Agrippa was like, Are youtrying to get me saved?
Yeah.
And Paul was like, I would loveto get you and everybody here
(31:24):
saved.
Right.
Um, and uh you you go, okay,what would have been Paul's plan
after that?
And what what was he after?
And what would he have based iton?
Well, he would have based it onan understanding of um Matthew
28, disciples.
Yes, and also everything the OldTestament taught about kings and
government and wisdom and hownations ought to be.
(31:44):
Read the Psalms.
Psalms is clear.
All nations praise the Lord,right?
All kings serve the Lord withfear.
Old Testament is very clear whatthe duty, this is how the
founding presidents of Americaspoke, the duty of nations and
their rulers was to serve Godwith fear.
SPEAKER_01 (32:01):
Well, and there's you know, there's three
institutions that report to Godthe family, the church, and the
government.
Yeah.
And the government is God'sservant to bring justice to a
nation.
And so again, what are the lawsthat you're bringing justice to
is up to the government and itsresponsibility to God.
And this is where it gets intoit's not a theocracy where you
have like one personrepresenting Jesus, like, you
(32:23):
know, as the Holy Roman Emperoror whatever.
But that the government shouldhave the guiding principles of
God's word to say, like, this islaw for the specific reason to
ensure the justice and equalityamongst people.
SPEAKER_00 (32:36):
So you have the institution in order for it to
like what's the goal?
What should we aim for?
You need a the institution ofthe government to be submitted
to God and the church to besubmitted to God.
Um, if you have the governmentsubmitted to God, but not the
church, not the people.
Right.
Uh John Adams said this ourconstitution was formed only for
(32:57):
a moral and religious people.
It, you know, it is um uh whatwas this quote?
Uh I want to get it right.
Um hang on.
Scrolling down, I just saw this.
Okay.
Our constitution was made onlyfor a moral religious people, it
(33:18):
is wholly inadequate to thegovernment of any other.
Right.
Meaning you can have a greatconstitution, a great system of
government, but if the people umare not religious, not moral,
don't love God, don't fear God,don't, then that government's
all you're gonna do is managechaos and you know it's not
(33:39):
gonna be effective as a nation.
At the same time, if you have achurch who's making disciples,
preaching the gospel, but agovernment that hates God and
wants to kill Christians, well,everyone you lead to Christ now,
you know, gets martyred.
Right.
And so, um, which, hey, praisethe Lord that when they're
martyred, they go to heaven andyou have the hope of eternal
life.
But ideally, you want both.
(34:00):
You want a government submittedto God and a church submitted to
God.
And I think that's what Paulwould have been after in Rome,
why he wanted so badly to go toRome and um, you know, to be
able to establish the Romanchurch and also to speak to
Caesar and try to lead Caesar toChrist.
SPEAKER_01 (34:16):
Right.
Okay, so I I love the wherewe're going with that.
I think there's we couldprobably express that for an
hour or some hours.
But let's just talk about onething we've noticed since
Charlie Kirk's assassination,just the aftermath.
It's been a couple weeks now.
Like, have you I think we'venoticed spiritual talk is people
are are excited about God.
(34:38):
Yeah, uh we're having moreconversations about Jesus.
Uh, we're seeing people wantingto respond to the gospel.
Isn't that kind of a wildreality?
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
I guess unless you know a seeddies, it it cannot, you know,
produce fruit.
And so what we're seeing is likethis seed, obviously I think
that was in terms of Jesus, buthere another one in terms of uh
(35:00):
Charlie Kirk dies, and then thegospel goes forward because his
videos have probably explodedsince I mean because I knew
several people who had no ideawho he was, and but since that
they've watched hours of footageof him.
So like the the gospel messageis is clearly going forward.
We saw the gospel proclaim overand over and over again at his
funeral and then beyond.
(35:21):
So where do we see umChristianity in American
Christianity going from here?
What do you what do you think?
SPEAKER_00 (35:30):
Yeah, I think um that aspect of being, you know,
boldly bringing Christianity tothe public square has inspired a
lot of people to say, I want to,you know, be more bold about my
faith.
I think the way that he reasonedfrom natural law and scripture
(35:50):
um has attracted a lot of peopleto go, huh?
You know what?
What he's saying makes senseabout laws and what you know,
his arguments and like I followthat.
Where is he getting that from?
Oh, the Bible.
Right.
Um and he went to church andlook, he had a you know, an
amazing wife and these twobeautiful children.
Right.
I want to be like that.
I want to have a godly family.
So I think there's so much thatkind of attracted to where now,
(36:12):
you know, church churches arereceiving a lot of new people.
Um it's kind of like reportsI've heard from all over, is
that there's this increasedinterest.
And so this is really goodbecause everything we're talking
about, you know, praying forreform for national leaders, and
uh that's that's very important.
But also you need we need ourchurches to be committed to the
(36:35):
gospel, our churches to be bold,our churches to be raising up.
SPEAKER_01 (36:39):
Um and here's what I'm sort of seeing I'm seeing
like those that sort of went, Idon't know how to put this,
those that sort of went uh leftduring COVID or you know, and
the all the the George Floydstuff and the BLM stuff, or they
went silent.
Um have have I think people aregonna leave those churches and
(37:03):
come to the the Christians thatlike I I want to see the gospel
proclaimed.
I'm feeling this urge and I wantto be led in that direction.
What I'm what I'm seeing is thatI think people are gonna leave
churches that aren't boldlyproclaiming the gospel, uh
aren't calling repentance ofsin, um and they're gonna start
(37:24):
going to churches that do that.
Which I mean, I don't thinkwe've our message has really
changed um here, uh maybeclarity-wise, I think for me
I've grown a lot in.
But um, I don't know.
I I think you're gonna see thatacross the spectrum of churches
that people are gonna be longingto be led to a place of boldness
(37:44):
and conviction and a a publicsquare posture that is no longer
afraid.
SPEAKER_00 (37:50):
Yeah, I think when God stirs someone's heart, they
look they become hungry for hisword and they want to boldly
proclaim it.
And so when that's you know whatyou're feeling God doing and you
know inside of you, it's it'sum, yeah, you want to be in a
community where that's valuedand encouraged.
And um, yeah, I think thatpeople who, you know, are had
(38:13):
never been to like I've had afew people reach out who's like,
man, I've never been to churchor I haven't been to church
since I was a kid, but I'm gonnastart going now.
And I just feel like, you know,God is is using these recent
events to like pull me back tochurch and faith.
And the kind of church they'regonna look for, though, is one
that's gonna not pull punches,speak the truth, to do it with
(38:33):
gentleness and respect, to do itwith love, but to be direct when
directness is needed and to beclear when clarity is needed.
SPEAKER_01 (38:40):
What do you think for for people who are at
churches that are not getting aclear, bold communication of the
gospel, is that reason enough toleave?
SPEAKER_00 (38:50):
Man, that's a tough question because if what I don't
want to encourage is people justkind of willy-nilly.
I don't, my church didn't dothis or didn't say this, and
even though I've been committedhere for years, I'm out because
I they didn't do what I wantedthem to do.
Right.
That's not the kind of spiritand character I want to develop
(39:12):
in people in my church.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (39:13):
Um I want to be submissive to the process.
SPEAKER_00 (39:16):
Yeah, submissive, patient, committed, um,
long-suffering, right?
You know, if I don't do or sayeverything you want me to do,
and you're just gonna leave theat the drop, you know, drop of a
hat.
That's not really how you builda community.
And so I think we should becareful and people should
exercise patience and beprayerful, to be humble.
Maybe talk to your pastor, say,hey, where do you land on this?
(39:38):
How here's how I'm feeling.
You know, don't just like up andleave because you didn't get
your way.
SPEAKER_01 (39:46):
This happened a lot in COVID.
Um, I think we took a slightlymore conservative stance.
For example, we had churchwithout masks, like that was
crazy back then.
And people just they didn't,it's not they didn't talk, they
didn't talk to me.
They just they're out, they'redone.
I can't believe you're trying tokill people and that they post
all stuff over the internet, youjust want to you know murder
grandma.
And and then they're out.
(40:06):
And I think there's a way tokind of go about saying, like,
hey, I feel like a real pressingof conviction on my heart that
our that the church should go acertain direction and being
submissive to the process.
A long time ago, um uh I metwith Max Luceto of all people.
Like, we had coffee, like I hadcoffee with Max Luceto one time
(40:27):
in my life.
Nice.
And uh, and I I asked him, like,how did you get your church to
leave the church of Christ?
Like, he's like, Oh, that tookforever.
Because it wasn't, he had aheart desire, like he wasn't
against music, you know.
Like Church of Christ, you know,if you instruments, you mean
yeah, yeah, not against likeinstruments in worship, and uh
(40:48):
just more of a legalistic, likeyou could lose your salvation
kind of thing.
And he was kind of moving moretowards a uh more broader
evangelical church style.
But to do that, he said it justtook a lot of time and a lot of
patience and a lot ofconversations to get the
leadership on board becausethere at the Church of Christ,
once you're an elder, you'realways an elder and everyone
(41:08):
votes, and so you could havelike 150 elders.
And as the church grew, whichthrough his preaching it did,
and he, you know, there was justthis thing where it it's it he
had to wait patiently for it tochange.
That really inspired me.
Not that I wanted to be like achurch of Christ or leave the
church of Christ, anything.
I don't I had zero affiliationwith that.
Just the principle.
Principle, yeah.
(41:28):
Like I really feel like that toget a church to change, it takes
a little bit of time and alittle bit of a lot of
conversation and a little bit oflike without pressure, like to
let me let's let's talk aboutthis.
Let's let's go back and forth.
Because when you put it onsomebody, they better make a
decision now and they haven'tprocessed it, it puts them in a
real hard position.
SPEAKER_00 (41:46):
And there's no perfect churches.
Whatever new church you go to isgonna eventually disappoint you
in some way as well.
SPEAKER_01 (41:51):
Everybody will disappoint you.
SPEAKER_00 (41:53):
But I will say, if you know, you've kind of been
like, whoa, man, my eyes areopen to um some things, you
know, now that I hadn't seenbefore.
And I've realized the churchthat I'm at doesn't really
preach the gospel, doesn't callpeople that that's that's
different.
And but I would still say likepractice patience, exercise
wisdom, seek wise counsel.
(42:14):
Um don't just make a hastydecision about that.
SPEAKER_01 (42:19):
You know, plans fail for lack of counsel, but many
advisors they succeed.
And probably one of the thingsthat you learn when you leave a
church that you're leaving a lotof people that really love you.
So there are there have beenpeople that have come to our
church because their church wentgay, full on gay affirming.
Yeah, they were at a church for40 years, buried their parents
there, and then the church wentgay affirming and like full on,
(42:40):
and they're like, We cannot, aspeople who love Jesus, go and uh
affirm and be a part of a churchthat is engaging in uh declaring
sin to be righteous, right?
That I think that's a greatunderstandable, yeah.
Very understandable.
That is a great reason to leave.
Um, but if you just like theyshould have handled it this way
(43:01):
when they should have handled itthat way, I I really just I I
just challenge you, just beforeyou slow down.
Yeah, before you just you youpush the grass, say we're out.
Don't run from something, run tosomething.
And like, where is God callingyou?
You know, so there's God's word,God's spirit, God's people, and
all three of those in generalare going to come together for
help you make a really gooddecision uh for where you should
(43:23):
be at church-wise.
And the people that are at yourchurch probably want to love you
through and probably have theability to change.
Because the last thing we needis shutting down churches left
and right because all the solidChristians leave them.
Yeah, yeah.
Like we need solid Christians inchurches to to evangelize those
who might be going down a darkpath and say, like, there is
(43:44):
something better here.
SPEAKER_00 (43:45):
Yeah.
All I have to say, that's atough decision.
SPEAKER_01 (43:48):
It is it's a hard, it's so hard.
It's it's such a it's a weightything.
SPEAKER_00 (43:51):
I understand both sides.
SPEAKER_01 (43:52):
Yeah, and like if you have a question on that,
we'd love to hear from you.
737-231-0605.
We'd love to hear from you, talkyou through um how to process uh
where your church is, and maybegive us a specific question, and
we can give you a more specificanswer.
All right, I think that's allthe time we have for today.
Okay.
Hey, thanks so much forwatching.
We'll see you next time.
And uh, from our house to yours,have an awesome week.
(44:14):
Oh fortune.
And welcome back to Pastor Plex Podcast.
I'm your host, Pastor Plek,along with Pastor Holland, and
we're glad you're here.
Thank you.
Glad to be here.
You know, listen, hey, we've hada lot going on in our country of
late, and I just want to kind ofgive a quick update on on kind
of what's all happened, where weare, and all the things.
So basically, we're coming.
(00:25):
This is right now, just a coupledays after the memorial service
of Charlie Kirk.
And did you get to observe that?
SPEAKER_00 (00:35):
I was at church all day on Sunday.
ECC in the morning, and then uh,you know, the branch in the
evening.
And so uh watch a bunch of clipsof it though.
Watch some of it afterwards.
What was the highlight view ofthe experience?
Uh I love that there wasworships for so much of it.
Um, and it was Chris Tomlin.
Uh I know we have some ChrisTomlin haters.
(00:56):
There's a lot of Chris Tomlinhaters out there, but listen,
he's pretty solid.
You know what?
It was cool to see like kind ofa mainstream worship guy.
Um Phil Wickham was there.
Yeah.
Is he mainstream?
I think so.
He at least used to be.
Yeah, Brandon Lake, he's likeElevation Church, right?
I have no idea.
But I just I love that there wasso much worship.
There was so much um straight upgospel preaching.
(01:19):
There was um, you know,scripture, there was Erica, you
know, forgiving um the shooter,uh, just her own personal
forgiveness, right?
Um, and really, I think showingthe heart of Jesus on the cross
or Stephen when he was beingmartyred.
Um, all of it was just sopowerful.
(01:40):
To see public officials there,to see, you know, pastors and
apologists, worship leaders, itwas awesome.
SPEAKER_01 (01:46):
Yeah, Brandon Lake is from Seacoast Church in
Charleston, South Carolina.
Oh, okay.
But yeah, it was really cool tosee all those worship leaders.
And then when has there everbeen like the president, vice
president, secretary of stateall been at the same event?
SPEAKER_00 (02:04):
Uh that was wild.
Yeah, good question.
I was MLK's memorial.
The pr uh the president was notthere, but the vice president
was, and other public officialsand members of Congress or
something like this.
SPEAKER_01 (02:15):
This was, I mean, crazy.
And the gospel was shared like abunch.
Yeah.
Like uh and so there was, youknow, roughly, I think 200,000
people there, I guess in person.
In person is kind of weirdbecause they're they have the
in-person inside the uh Arizonauh Cardinals Stadium, and I
(02:38):
don't know how many of thatheld, but there were several
stadiums around Arizona that hadoverflow, which was just wild.
Yeah.
Wild that they had that manyoverflow stadiums I don't know,
I don't know if it was stadiumsor what, but I think it was
200,000 people in person.
And then um when I was watching,and I don't know what you know,
like when I was watching on on Ithink Turning Points Stream,
(03:01):
yeah, stream.
I think it was like 600,000 uhlike at whenever I was, you
know, looking at it.
SPEAKER_00 (03:07):
Yeah.
So and not only was the gospelpreached, but like Christian
values that have you know notreally been promoted culturally,
yeah, um, were really beingpromoted.
So, like you know, one of thethings Erica said, Women, I have
a challenge for you.
Be virtuous.
Our strength is found in God'sdesign for our role.
(03:30):
Wow.
We are the guardians, theencouragers, the preservers,
guard your heart.
Everything you do flows from it.
And if you're a mother, pleaserecognize that is the single
most important ministry youhave.
Saying the value of motherhoodand God's design for the role of
women being publicly promoted.
Man, that was crazy.
(03:50):
Um also said to the menwatching, um, accept Charlie's
challenge and embrace truemanhood.
Be strong and courageous foryour families.
Love your wives and lead them,love your children and protect
them, be the spiritual head ofyour home, be a leader worth
following.
Just like, dang, that that wasso awesome.
SPEAKER_01 (04:10):
Yeah.
So uh update on those numbers,about a hundred thousand people,
70,000 in the stadium, and then30,000 overflow.
But yeah, that is that is such auh not what you would expect in
our culture.
And but you know, such a youngman, uh, such a guy that that
(04:30):
led people to Christ.
Um, so I've heard this, I thinkJosh Howerton posted this.
I don't know where he got itfrom, but it was just really
cool.
Uh, that that Charlie Kirk is amartyr.
And the reason why we'd say thatis we'd say that John the
Baptist was a martyr.
Right.
Right, and John the Baptist, whydid he die?
(04:51):
For telling uh Herodias that hermarriage to Herod and leaving uh
Philip was wrong.
And yeah, and calling out Herodhimself for having her right,
right, and calling out Herodhimself, and then so he got his
head served on a platter uh forthat, which that's you know,
(05:12):
like was that a politicalassassination?
Yeah, but I mean there's not oneChristian who doesn't consider
John the Baptist a martyr.
SPEAKER_00 (05:20):
Yeah, right.
And so I Because his politicalum, you know, his yeah, his
stance, his uh what's it called,rebuke of a political figure
came from a place of faith andthe morals of scripture.
Wild.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:37):
So Charlie Kirk then, for whatever you know,
let's say, you know, I think itwas a guy that was dating a
trans dude.
He killed him probably for hisuh view on marriage, oddly.
It's kind of odd that it's sortof someone's view on marriage is
what might get them killed.
Isn't that wild?
SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
Yeah.
I mean, we don't we don't know,right?
No, there's nothing, nostatement of like why or
anything.
We just have kind ofspeculation.
But yeah, you you assume it'sviews he held that he was public
about.
Um but uh yeah, what um whatJohn the Baptist did was uh
speak out publicly to a publicleader and political figure
(06:21):
about immorality, you know, andand proclaimed essentially the
Christian truth of Scripture,and he died for it.
SPEAKER_01 (06:29):
And uh Yeah, there clearly we got the evidence for
his motive is after theshooting, Robinson allegedly
texted his romantic partner.
Uh, I had enough of his hatred.
Some hate can't be negotiatedout.
And he also left a note underhis keyboard saying, I had the
opportunity to take out CharlieKirk, and I'm going to take it
after the shooting.
(06:50):
Uh Robinson probably told hisfather during a phone call that
he had killed Kirk becausethere's too much evil and Kirk
spreads too much hate.
So essentially it's wild thatit's uh and one of his things
was there was one bullet thatsaid, Hey, fascist, fascist
catch, interpreting interpretedas targeting Kirk Kirk's
far-right ideology.
(07:11):
Anyway, it was it was kind ofwild to see that as being uh the
the incentive uh or incentivemotive.
Uh Robinson's mother also toldinvestigators he had become more
political over the past year,leaning left and supporting
pro-gay and trans rights.
And at a family dinner shortlybefore the event, he expressed
hatred for Kirk's views on thesetopics.
His Discord chats hours beforethe arrest and social media also
(07:34):
show scattered anti-conservativecomments.
SPEAKER_00 (07:37):
Wow.
Well, related to, you know,turning this toward like the
spiritual, one of the thingsJ.D.
Vance said was um at thememorial, uh Charlie suffered a
terrible fate, but I think it isnot the worst fate.
It is better to face a gunmanthan to live your life afraid to
speak the truth.
(07:57):
Wow.
It's better to be persecuted foryour faith than to deny the
kingship of Christ.
Better to die a young man inthis world than to sell your
soul for an easy life with nopurpose, no risk, no love, and
no truth.
I think that kind of reality iswhat is really sparking a lot of
spiritual revival.
SPEAKER_01 (08:15):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (08:16):
Um, because one thing I think is really
interesting, so Charlie Kirkwould say um that he would use
politics to get to Jesus,something that a lot of people
were um would really warnagainst.
A lot of pastors would be like,don't bring that up.
And you know where that camefrom.
SPEAKER_01 (08:35):
Billy Graham during his crusades would say, I stay
out of politics because I don'twant to alienate someone from
hearing the gospel message.
However, I think now, I thinkthe culture has moved so far out
of that realm that nobody wantsto have a conversation unless it
gets to like, here's what Godwould have to say about that and
(08:57):
why you need to repent.
Uh, because we're so far from aum a culturally Christian
worldview.
So that when he spoke of ideasand then he rooted them back to
the Bible, it blew people'sminds.
SPEAKER_00 (09:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
And you know, speak apologeticsand politics became like uh, you
know, a really powerful way toactually point people to Christ
in the gospel.
So um that's pretty huge.
Yeah.
I think we can learn a lot fromthat as pastors, as Christians,
even, to say, like, hey, youknow, this doesn't mean that
(09:32):
everyone needs to go out andstart, you know, like initiating
these conversations witheveryone.
But to be able to say, like, no,it's a legitimate way to reach
people with the gospel is bystarting with something, you
know, that is culturallyrelevant and tracing the logic
of it back to eternal truthsthat are found in scripture.
All legislation and politics andgovernment and stuff is related
(09:56):
to eternal moral principles atat if you trace it all the way
back, right?
Um and so, yeah, when you whenyou're debating a political
issue, you can yeah, use that asa way to talk about the truths
of scripture and then eventuallypoint to Jesus in the gospel.
SPEAKER_01 (10:12):
And that's essentially I know this sounds
wild, right?
It's essentially being allthings to all people that you
might win some.
You're uh hitting a felt need,which is a political answer that
then drives back to the deeperneed, which is ultimately
spiritual.
Uh and so I think that's justtrue of all evangelism.
It just feels like it'srelationally uh distancing when
(10:35):
you start with an argument.
SPEAKER_00 (10:37):
Yeah.
Um and that's not always thebest way to start.
That was his deal.
He'd go and it'd be like, hey,argue with me, prove me wrong,
you know.
But in our personalrelationships, you know, that's
it's not always the best way tostart.
SPEAKER_01 (10:48):
Right.
But uh yeah, and it's wildthough that it worked.
I mean, I've been seeing, youknow, testimony after testimony
of someone watching Charlie Kirktalk and defend his position.
Now, it didn't reach the personhe was interacting with, but all
the people that sort of tuned into watch the argument that had
the same belief system, itconnected them.
SPEAKER_00 (11:09):
So I also think internally, we in our just
spirit and our the way that wesubconsciously think, you know,
this this kind of internal um uhprocessing and um discerning and
stuff that we that we do withouteven realizing it.
We know in our gut there is aconnection between politics and
(11:34):
um Christianity.
I think we know um that there'sa connection between politics
and spirituality, politics andGod, religion.
And so I think the reason youknow, so many people are are
kind of uh hungry for andinterested in this right now is
because there's like, you know,he was this person who said,
yes, there is, and here's whatit is.
You know, he would connect thesethings.
(11:54):
Whether you agreed with him ornot, it's just acknowledging,
like instead of hearing fromyour pastor, don't bring up
politics, or hearing frompoliticians, don't bring faith
into this.
Rather, you know, it's this ideaof like, no, these things are
definitely connected together.
Um, and to act like they're notis like disorienting internally.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01 (12:14):
Yeah, well, because what we're wanting is law,
right?
If we want, and politicsultimately gets us to a
political system, whichultimately gets us to what laws
are right, what is right, whatis wrong.
So if you are legislating whatis right and what is wrong,
right, you are legislatingmorality.
So therefore, where you get yourmorality from matters.
And I think that has that hasbeen the struggle for me
(12:36):
personally, for me personally, Ididn't want to engage in the
political fray because and Ithink this is where I in the in
the or the in the teens, oh youknow, 2013 to 2019, I I was
struggling wrapping my headaround um the culture push.
And I think back was it 2014 orso, whenever we legalized gay
(13:00):
marriage.
2015.
2015.
I think it was at that pointwhere I stopped punching up at
the church, so to speak, likeyou know, like big bad church,
and I started punching up at theculture, just me personally.
Like you're always kind of youknow, what do you what are you
arguing against?
It was, I think before that, Iwas like, hey, legalism, bad,
(13:23):
trusting Jesus, good.
And then when all of a suddenthe there wasn't there there
wasn't a Christian culture, youknow, to kind of push back
against, all of a sudden yourealize I am now pushing against
culture that is an enemy towardthe gospel because we don't even
agree what right and wrong isbecause we've abandoned that.
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
And so some people have said to me, um, the New
Testament doesn't say anythingabout, you know, politics and
government.
It's all about, you know, justlike the church, right?
And I think that's reallyinteresting that people think
like that now.
It's not how Christians havetended to think about things um
(14:04):
for most of church history.
Um and but but it's interestingbecause in America we have um a
uh constitutional republic anddemocratic republic.
And so we are voting for electedofficials who will represent us,
right?
And so we have a lot of say inwhat the laws of the land are,
(14:27):
as opposed to like a monarchywhere a king just decides.
So where the the Bible has a lotof instructions for kings.
Here's how you ought to rule,here's what's right, here's
what's wrong.
Proverbs is full of that.
Um, the book of kings, first andsecond kings, right?
Examples of what's right andwrong.
Um, Deuteronomy uh has a whole,you know, a whole section,
(14:48):
Deuteronomy 17, 14 or 17.
Uh check me on it.
But uh the law for kings.
Here's what it, here's what aking ought to do and what he
ought not to do.
And so all of that, we we go,okay, in a place like United
States of America, we um we areessentially like who are in
(15:09):
charge.
You know, we're the people.
It's uh it's the people who makethe laws of the land.
Therefore, all of that wisdomabout how kings ought to operate
um is applicable to us ascitizens who vote in this
republic.
And so the Bible actually doesspeak a lot to um how you ought
to rule and legislate and governand things like that.
(15:30):
Um, it just used to be relevantto a king of the whole people,
right?
But for us, it's relevant toevery citizen of America.
So here's I think the the push.
That makes sense.
Yeah, no, totally bad.
That's mainly Old Testament,though.
But I would say that, you know,the New Testament, um Well,
Jesus is a king, thereforeinherently political.
SPEAKER_01 (15:48):
Yes, exactly.
Like no matter what you do,you're gonna have a political
situation because you can't likeif you're gonna you're not gonna
as a Christian, you're not gonnago, I want innocent babies to
die.
Like you you would that is youthat you can't um take that away
from your um personal view, evenif it gets political, that's
(16:11):
just they're entwined.
Yeah.
Okay, so but here's the the Ithink the pushback has come.
Okay, right here.
I feel like here's there'salways been, or at least in the
past, let's call it 70 years,the the pushback has been um
don't you think that uh the warsof the past, all these
(16:33):
differences in religion havecaused so much bloodshed, and so
many people have died, and somany people were um persecuted
for their faith, non-faith, youknow, the witch trials, uh, you
know, Christian, CatholicInquisitions.
Uh what if you if you go downthis road, it's inevitable that
(16:54):
you get to this corrupt worldwhere you use Jesus to kill off
your enemy, and then there's athis very evil bed partner of
religion and uh politics.
I think that's where people justthink they always go there.
Um and I don't know if itnecessarily has to go there.
SPEAKER_00 (17:11):
Yeah.
Uh so where the New Testamentdoes speak to this, I think, um
a couple of ways.
Romans 13 and Matthew 28, whenyou think about the Great
Commission, make disciples ofall nations, what what is the
what is the end goal of thatlook like?
If you what does it look like tothoroughly disciple a nation?
Obviously, that is going to umuh uh impact its laws, customs,
(17:36):
traditions, leaders.
You go into you go into acountry where um they sacrifice
children, for instance.
Yeah.
There's a law where, hey, if youum want to, you know, be an
elected official, you have tosacrifice one of your sons.
Yeah.
And so not only do you teachthem spiritual things, but you
(17:56):
also would aim to change thelaws of that land so that you
don't have to sacrifice yourchild to be a civil leader.
Right, right.
So discipling a nation involvesthe spiritual church level
stuff, but also um works its wayinto the laws, customs,
traditions, leadership of thosenations to where what does a
thoroughly discipled nationlooks look like?
(18:18):
It's self-consciously Christianfrom um uh the leadership all
the way down, you know, from thegrassroots up and leadership
down.
Um and so what what um peopleare afraid of though, what you
brought up, yeah, is that okay,then don't you have like um
power corrupting thoseChristians and them using um
(18:38):
their power to kind of like killoff their enemies, right?
So how what how do you how doyou stop that?
Or does that mean that youshould just not even seek a
Christian nation at all?
SPEAKER_01 (18:50):
Right.
Yeah, and I I think that's theproblem, right?
I think people are looking at ifif I if we have a Christian
nation, then that Christiannation then's gonna outlaw other
religions and then m kill themfor blasphemy.
And I think that that that fearmight even be wise to say, like,
hey, we need to prevent thatfrom happening.
(19:11):
But yeah, yeah, at the sametime, you're gonna get your laws
from somewhere.
SPEAKER_00 (19:16):
Exactly.
And if you're not gonna have aChristian nation, you're gonna
have some sort of nation.
Yeah, you're gonna have a paganwitchcraft nation or Muslim
nation.
There's no such thing, a lot ofpeople like to say, you know, a
neutral, there's no such thingas neutral.
Your morality comes fromsomewhere.
Uh every nation has a God.
And and if you go, well, no, wedon't.
(19:37):
If we're we're atheists, we'resecular, what well then the
state becomes the god, andwhoever's in charge makes the
rules, and you know, um youcan't, you don't have any,
they're not accountable toanyone in a you know, in a human
level.
They're just accountable tothemselves, and that's like a
total setup for tyranny, youknow.
(19:57):
Whereas with a Christian nation,you you have a standard of God's
word that leaders are heldaccountable to, to where if they
start acting like tyrants, youcan go, no, you're not operating
as Christ would have youoperate.
Um that's very relevant to theum American Revolution.
(20:17):
It's relevant to um, you know,the abolition of slavery in
America.
It it it was because of aChristian culture that they were
able to say, hey, don't webelieve that the Bible says all
people are created equal inGod's image, Genesis 1, that we
all come from Adam, Acts 17?
Well, if that's true, thenpeople shouldn't be subject to
(20:39):
lifelong hereditary race-basedslavery.
Right.
That was Lincoln's argument.
Um uh MLK, when he you knowprotested uh racial inequality,
he rooted it in uh, you know,Isaiah's vision, um he rooted it
in Genesis 1, he rooted it inscripture.
With without a Christianculture, those arguments
disappear.
Right.
(20:59):
But with a Christian,self-consciously Christian
culture, you actually have astandard to appeal to to say,
hey, we shouldn't treat peopledifferently because of the color
of their skin, because the Biblesays this.
SPEAKER_01 (21:11):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (21:11):
Without the Bible says this in a culture or a
nation, then it's just youropinion versus mine.
It's subjective.
So okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:18):
So I think that gets the problem of like, or maybe
was this addressed in the earlydays of the United States?
And Thomas Jefferson writes theletter to a church, right?
He writes his letter aboutseparate there's a wall of
separation between the churchand the states.
And what that meant was thechurch with this, the government
(21:40):
was not going to interfere withthe church.
It wasn't a the government willnever have the the church
involved in it.
SPEAKER_00 (21:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So he's writing to DanburyBaptist Church, right?
And reassuring them government'snot going to interfere with your
worship.
Remember where America camefrom, American Revolution, you
had the Church of Englandrequiring you to um be Anglican,
essentially, right?
(22:09):
Yeah.
You had to like, you had you hadto do, you had to do the sign of
the cross, you had to um, youknow, be baptized in this
particular denomination.
Right.
Um, so forcing a particular umuh form of Christianity on
people where Baptists would say,that goes against my conscience.
I don't want to baptize mybabies.
Right.
(22:29):
I I want to baptize, you know,believers' baptism.
I don't want to, you know, havethis view of communion.
And if you don't have that view,then you know you're in big
trouble with the state.
Right.
And so the formation of America,the freedom of religion was not
meant to be interpreted asfreedom to be Christian, Jewish,
Hindu, Muslim, et cetera.
(22:50):
Freedom to worship the God ofthe Bible, the Christian God,
according to your conscience andyour interpretation of scripture
and your denomination.
So Presbyterians, Baptists, youknow, you had a bunch of
different denominations at thispoint, even some Catholics.
Um, but so uh they were gettingaway from that.
Thomas Jefferson is encouragingDanbury Baptist Church, hey,
(23:12):
don't worry.
Your constitutional right tofreedom of religion is going to
remain protected.
No one's gonna force you to beAnglican.
SPEAKER_01 (23:22):
So what at what point did we move from, like,
hey, we want this to be a youknow, a nation full of
Christians or a Christiannation, as like several
presidents say it's a Christiannation.
Uh what shifted?
What made it like kind of leavethe um hey, we're we love Jesus,
(23:45):
you know, Abraham Lincoln, youknow, he's calling for like a
national day of humiliationprayer and like April 30th of
1863 or something.
Yes.
Like it's wild to watch that.
Like he's saying we need torepent.
I mean, as a nation, repent.
SPEAKER_00 (23:59):
Yeah.
So naming God Almighty and thatthe you know, the Senate's
behind this, Congress is behindthis, saying we all need to do
this because they viewed civilwar as God's judgment on them
for their national sin andsaying we need to get right with
God and seek his favor andblessing again.
Wild.
Yeah.
Calling for the entire country,and and no one said that that
(24:21):
was unconstitutional.
Yeah, no one even blinked aneye.
Like, all right, cool.
75 years or so after the FirstAmendment, uh Bill of Rights.
SPEAKER_01 (24:29):
Right.
Okay, so so then you you moveforward, let's move forward a
little bit further.
At some point, things start todrift off the cliff where um the
world is influencing governmentmore than the church is
influencing government.
Where do you feel like thatshift happened?
SPEAKER_00 (24:50):
Well, and so um like 10 years before um that
proclamation of prayer fromLincoln, there was this report
that came out by the U.S.
House Judiciary Committee wherethey were already warning about
um they're they're responding topublic, you know, the public
calling for m stricterseparation between church and
(25:12):
state.
Essentially, what what it saysin the report is that um the
government and Christianitywould be entirely divorced.
And so people were calling forthat in the 1850s.
Yes.
And so you have a legislativebody in the 1850s saying that
would be um self-destructive ifwe did that.
Christianity has always been apart of this country.
(25:35):
Um, freedom of religion was notabout removing Christianity um
from the public life or ouridentity as a nation, it was
about having unity between thedifferent denominations.
If and so what they say in thisreport, um actually, I'll just
I'll read part of it.
I have it pulled up.
Yeah.
Um it must be considered umChristianity must be considered
(25:58):
as the foundation on which thewhole structure of this country
rests.
Laws will not have permanence orpower without the sanction of
religious sentiment, without afirm belief that there is a
power above us that will rewardour virtues and punish our
vices.
In this age, there can be nosubstitute for Christianity.
That in its general principlesis the great conservative
(26:19):
element on which we must relyfor the purity and permanence of
free institutions.
This was the religion of thefounders of the republic, and
they expected it to remain thereligion of their descendants.
That's wild.
Okay, so very strongly, youcannot separate this thing.
That's not what the FirstAmendment means.
SPEAKER_01 (26:35):
Yeah.
And then um so what happened,okay.
Let's just I w I was justthinking, probably one of the
things that also people pushback on like Christianity
involving in laws isprohibition.
I don't know if you rememberthis.
Yeah, not that you were there.
Uh but prohibition came from thetemperance movement of women.
(26:55):
Women who were sick and tired oftheir husbands just being drunk
all day, right, uh, or hangingout in the saloons, and so they
go and start protesting all overthe globe, or all over the
globe, all over the country, andthey're tired of their husbands
being drunk, they're tired ofyou know alcoholism being
all-time high, and they're justthey're they're pressing
(27:18):
politics, change this, becauseyou know, shut down saloons,
shut down the alehouses, shut itdown.
It's a complete mess.
Um, our children aren't beingraised.
We need men back in culture.
Isn't it wild?
Yeah, the women were saying, weneed men, and that's where it
kind of came from.
They're all their men weredrunk.
And now, to be fair, you know,there wasn't women's suffrage,
(27:40):
but that fact that women'ssuffrage came from a lot of
abuse and them saying, like,hey, how come like this pathetic
guy that I'm married to who's analcoholic, I need to go and
provide.
I need I need wages that areequal.
I need to be able to vote.
And anyway, so that's that'sreally what kind of came about
is women grew really strongbecause of a temperance
(28:01):
movement, and then eventuallybanned alcohol in the United
States, which was a completemess uh in so many ways.
But it's wild to see how um Ithink what people are afraid of
is like, look at that.
That's what religion did.
Well, it it leaves out thebackground of the complete
disaster that men were uh in thelate 1800s, uh, even into the
(28:23):
early 1900s when it came toalcohol.
Anyway, I don't know where thatI think that's a pushback of
like prohibition is too much.
You're now getting into mypersonal life where religion has
no business in a sense.
SPEAKER_00 (28:34):
Yeah.
Um, so like I think a good wayto think about it is you know,
people have seen maybe some ofthe disastrous results of um
using of the Christianity umfused with state power, right?
And have said we don't wantChristianity fused with state
(28:58):
power.
Um and instead, let's go theneutral route.
Right.
It's not really a real route,though.
There's no no there is noneutral.
So, you know, it you you eitherend up something fills that
spot.
Something has to decideobjective truth, morality,
what's right and wrong, whatlaws are gonna be.
So it it it'll either be secularhumanism that will lead to um
(29:20):
declining birth rates, abortion,suicide, self-destruction, or
it'll lead to um uh Islam orHinduism, like something will
fill that spot.
So instead of seeing, this is mytake on it, instead of seeing
the you know bad things thathave happened in you know
certain times with um Christiannations or Christian laws and
(29:42):
stuff like that, and abandoningthat, saying, what is a better
way to do Christian laws,Christian culture, Christian
nation?
What is a way that is going tobe pleasing to God that's going
to be good for all people,whether you're Christian or not?
Um because if laws are based onmorality, well, who has the best
morality?
Christianity.
The Bible.
(30:05):
It is.
It is weird.
I think Tim Keller.
SPEAKER_01 (30:07):
If you can abandon it completely, you hit to reform
it.
Right.
So Tim Keller pushed back onthis idea of Christians like
involving himself in politicsprimarily because he saw how
much damage in the Europeanworld Christianity ruling,
whatever, did.
(30:27):
And I'm like, but that is such.
So let's say you become thepresident.
Would you then say he saidactually he said the the
Christianity grows best and doesbest in an oppressed world?
And that well, what happens whenyou become the majority and
you're no longer oppressed?
Then what do you do?
(30:48):
Just hand over authority to agodless person to say it's an
unsustainable vision.
SPEAKER_00 (30:52):
It makes sense for a time.
Right.
It is true that Christianity canthrive in oppressed situations.
Obviously, we see that in thebook of Acts.
SPEAKER_01 (31:00):
And we see it currently like in Iran or China
or wherever.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:03):
But if you go, okay, well, what happens when we're
successful at making disciplesand we start to become the
majority culture?
Um, then do you, yeah, like yousaid, do you hand over all
authority?
You step down.
So you have to think about Paulreally remember when he tried to
lead um King Agrippa to faith.
And Agrippa was like, Are youtrying to get me saved?
Yeah.
And Paul was like, I would loveto get you and everybody here
(31:24):
saved.
Right.
Um, and uh you you go, okay,what would have been Paul's plan
after that?
And what what was he after?
And what would he have based iton?
Well, he would have based it onan understanding of um Matthew
28, disciples.
Yes, and also everything the OldTestament taught about kings and
government and wisdom and hownations ought to be.
(31:44):
Read the Psalms.
Psalms is clear.
All nations praise the Lord,right?
All kings serve the Lord withfear.
Old Testament is very clear whatthe duty, this is how the
founding presidents of Americaspoke, the duty of nations and
their rulers was to serve Godwith fear.
SPEAKER_01 (32:01):
Well, and there's you know, there's three
institutions that report to Godthe family, the church, and the
government.
Yeah.
And the government is God'sservant to bring justice to a
nation.
And so again, what are the lawsthat you're bringing justice to
is up to the government and itsresponsibility to God.
And this is where it gets intoit's not a theocracy where you
have like one personrepresenting Jesus, like, you
(32:23):
know, as the Holy Roman Emperoror whatever.
But that the government shouldhave the guiding principles of
God's word to say, like, this islaw for the specific reason to
ensure the justice and equalityamongst people.
SPEAKER_00 (32:36):
So you have the institution in order for it to
like what's the goal?
What should we aim for?
You need a the institution ofthe government to be submitted
to God and the church to besubmitted to God.
Um, if you have the governmentsubmitted to God, but not the
church, not the people.
Right.
Uh John Adams said this ourconstitution was formed only for
(32:57):
a moral and religious people.
It, you know, it is um uh whatwas this quote?
Uh I want to get it right.
Um hang on.
Scrolling down, I just saw this.
Okay.
Our constitution was made onlyfor a moral religious people, it
(33:18):
is wholly inadequate to thegovernment of any other.
Right.
Meaning you can have a greatconstitution, a great system of
government, but if the people umare not religious, not moral,
don't love God, don't fear God,don't, then that government's
all you're gonna do is managechaos and you know it's not
(33:39):
gonna be effective as a nation.
At the same time, if you have achurch who's making disciples,
preaching the gospel, but agovernment that hates God and
wants to kill Christians, well,everyone you lead to Christ now,
you know, gets martyred.
Right.
And so, um, which, hey, praisethe Lord that when they're
martyred, they go to heaven andyou have the hope of eternal
life.
But ideally, you want both.
(34:00):
You want a government submittedto God and a church submitted to
God.
And I think that's what Paulwould have been after in Rome,
why he wanted so badly to go toRome and um, you know, to be
able to establish the Romanchurch and also to speak to
Caesar and try to lead Caesar toChrist.
SPEAKER_01 (34:16):
Right.
Okay, so I I love the wherewe're going with that.
I think there's we couldprobably express that for an
hour or some hours.
But let's just talk about onething we've noticed since
Charlie Kirk's assassination,just the aftermath.
It's been a couple weeks now.
Like, have you I think we'venoticed spiritual talk is people
are are excited about God.
(34:38):
Yeah, uh we're having moreconversations about Jesus.
Uh, we're seeing people wantingto respond to the gospel.
Isn't that kind of a wildreality?
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
I guess unless you know a seeddies, it it cannot, you know,
produce fruit.
And so what we're seeing is likethis seed, obviously I think
that was in terms of Jesus, buthere another one in terms of uh
(35:00):
Charlie Kirk dies, and then thegospel goes forward because his
videos have probably explodedsince I mean because I knew
several people who had no ideawho he was, and but since that
they've watched hours of footageof him.
So like the the gospel messageis is clearly going forward.
We saw the gospel proclaim overand over and over again at his
funeral and then beyond.
(35:21):
So where do we see umChristianity in American
Christianity going from here?
What do you what do you think?
SPEAKER_00 (35:30):
Yeah, I think um that aspect of being, you know,
boldly bringing Christianity tothe public square has inspired a
lot of people to say, I want to,you know, be more bold about my
faith.
I think the way that he reasonedfrom natural law and scripture
(35:50):
um has attracted a lot of peopleto go, huh?
You know what?
What he's saying makes senseabout laws and what you know,
his arguments and like I followthat.
Where is he getting that from?
Oh, the Bible.
Right.
Um and he went to church andlook, he had a you know, an
amazing wife and these twobeautiful children.
Right.
I want to be like that.
I want to have a godly family.
So I think there's so much thatkind of attracted to where now,
(36:12):
you know, church churches arereceiving a lot of new people.
Um it's kind of like reportsI've heard from all over, is
that there's this increasedinterest.
And so this is really goodbecause everything we're talking
about, you know, praying forreform for national leaders, and
uh that's that's very important.
But also you need we need ourchurches to be committed to the
(36:35):
gospel, our churches to be bold,our churches to be raising up.
SPEAKER_01 (36:39):
Um and here's what I'm sort of seeing I'm seeing
like those that sort of went, Idon't know how to put this,
those that sort of went uh leftduring COVID or you know, and
the all the the George Floydstuff and the BLM stuff, or they
went silent.
Um have have I think people aregonna leave those churches and
(37:03):
come to the the Christians thatlike I I want to see the gospel
proclaimed.
I'm feeling this urge and I wantto be led in that direction.
What I'm what I'm seeing is thatI think people are gonna leave
churches that aren't boldlyproclaiming the gospel, uh
aren't calling repentance ofsin, um and they're gonna start
(37:24):
going to churches that do that.
Which I mean, I don't thinkwe've our message has really
changed um here, uh maybeclarity-wise, I think for me
I've grown a lot in.
But um, I don't know.
I I think you're gonna see thatacross the spectrum of churches
that people are gonna be longingto be led to a place of boldness
(37:44):
and conviction and a a publicsquare posture that is no longer
afraid.
SPEAKER_00 (37:50):
Yeah, I think when God stirs someone's heart, they
look they become hungry for hisword and they want to boldly
proclaim it.
And so when that's you know whatyou're feeling God doing and you
know inside of you, it's it'sum, yeah, you want to be in a
community where that's valuedand encouraged.
And um, yeah, I think thatpeople who, you know, are had
(38:13):
never been to like I've had afew people reach out who's like,
man, I've never been to churchor I haven't been to church
since I was a kid, but I'm gonnastart going now.
And I just feel like, you know,God is is using these recent
events to like pull me back tochurch and faith.
And the kind of church they'regonna look for, though, is one
that's gonna not pull punches,speak the truth, to do it with
(38:33):
gentleness and respect, to do itwith love, but to be direct when
directness is needed and to beclear when clarity is needed.
SPEAKER_01 (38:40):
What do you think for for people who are at
churches that are not getting aclear, bold communication of the
gospel, is that reason enough toleave?
SPEAKER_00 (38:50):
Man, that's a tough question because if what I don't
want to encourage is people justkind of willy-nilly.
I don't, my church didn't dothis or didn't say this, and
even though I've been committedhere for years, I'm out because
I they didn't do what I wantedthem to do.
Right.
That's not the kind of spiritand character I want to develop
(39:12):
in people in my church.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (39:13):
Um I want to be submissive to the process.
SPEAKER_00 (39:16):
Yeah, submissive, patient, committed, um,
long-suffering, right?
You know, if I don't do or sayeverything you want me to do,
and you're just gonna leave theat the drop, you know, drop of a
hat.
That's not really how you builda community.
And so I think we should becareful and people should
exercise patience and beprayerful, to be humble.
Maybe talk to your pastor, say,hey, where do you land on this?
(39:38):
How here's how I'm feeling.
You know, don't just like up andleave because you didn't get
your way.
SPEAKER_01 (39:46):
This happened a lot in COVID.
Um, I think we took a slightlymore conservative stance.
For example, we had churchwithout masks, like that was
crazy back then.
And people just they didn't,it's not they didn't talk, they
didn't talk to me.
They just they're out, they'redone.
I can't believe you're trying tokill people and that they post
all stuff over the internet, youjust want to you know murder
grandma.
And and then they're out.
(40:06):
And I think there's a way tokind of go about saying, like,
hey, I feel like a real pressingof conviction on my heart that
our that the church should go acertain direction and being
submissive to the process.
A long time ago, um uh I metwith Max Luceto of all people.
Like, we had coffee, like I hadcoffee with Max Luceto one time
(40:27):
in my life.
Nice.
And uh, and I I asked him, like,how did you get your church to
leave the church of Christ?
Like, he's like, Oh, that tookforever.
Because it wasn't, he had aheart desire, like he wasn't
against music, you know.
Like Church of Christ, you know,if you instruments, you mean
yeah, yeah, not against likeinstruments in worship, and uh
(40:48):
just more of a legalistic, likeyou could lose your salvation
kind of thing.
And he was kind of moving moretowards a uh more broader
evangelical church style.
But to do that, he said it justtook a lot of time and a lot of
patience and a lot ofconversations to get the
leadership on board becausethere at the Church of Christ,
once you're an elder, you'realways an elder and everyone
(41:08):
votes, and so you could havelike 150 elders.
And as the church grew, whichthrough his preaching it did,
and he, you know, there was justthis thing where it it's it he
had to wait patiently for it tochange.
That really inspired me.
Not that I wanted to be like achurch of Christ or leave the
church of Christ, anything.
I don't I had zero affiliationwith that.
Just the principle.
Principle, yeah.
(41:28):
Like I really feel like that toget a church to change, it takes
a little bit of time and alittle bit of a lot of
conversation and a little bit oflike without pressure, like to
let me let's let's talk aboutthis.
Let's let's go back and forth.
Because when you put it onsomebody, they better make a
decision now and they haven'tprocessed it, it puts them in a
real hard position.
SPEAKER_00 (41:46):
And there's no perfect churches.
Whatever new church you go to isgonna eventually disappoint you
in some way as well.
SPEAKER_01 (41:51):
Everybody will disappoint you.
SPEAKER_00 (41:53):
But I will say, if you know, you've kind of been
like, whoa, man, my eyes areopen to um some things, you
know, now that I hadn't seenbefore.
And I've realized the churchthat I'm at doesn't really
preach the gospel, doesn't callpeople that that's that's
different.
And but I would still say likepractice patience, exercise
wisdom, seek wise counsel.
(42:14):
Um don't just make a hastydecision about that.
SPEAKER_01 (42:19):
You know, plans fail for lack of counsel, but many
advisors they succeed.
And probably one of the thingsthat you learn when you leave a
church that you're leaving a lotof people that really love you.
So there are there have beenpeople that have come to our
church because their church wentgay, full on gay affirming.
Yeah, they were at a church for40 years, buried their parents
there, and then the church wentgay affirming and like full on,
(42:40):
and they're like, We cannot, aspeople who love Jesus, go and uh
affirm and be a part of a churchthat is engaging in uh declaring
sin to be righteous, right?
That I think that's a greatunderstandable, yeah.
Very understandable.
That is a great reason to leave.
Um, but if you just like theyshould have handled it this way
(43:01):
when they should have handled itthat way, I I really just I I
just challenge you, just beforeyou slow down.
Yeah, before you just you youpush the grass, say we're out.
Don't run from something, run tosomething.
And like, where is God callingyou?
You know, so there's God's word,God's spirit, God's people, and
all three of those in generalare going to come together for
help you make a really gooddecision uh for where you should
(43:23):
be at church-wise.
And the people that are at yourchurch probably want to love you
through and probably have theability to change.
Because the last thing we needis shutting down churches left
and right because all the solidChristians leave them.
Yeah, yeah.
Like we need solid Christians inchurches to to evangelize those
who might be going down a darkpath and say, like, there is
(43:44):
something better here.
SPEAKER_00 (43:45):
Yeah.
All I have to say, that's atough decision.
SPEAKER_01 (43:48):
It is it's a hard, it's so hard.
It's it's such a it's a weightything.
SPEAKER_00 (43:51):
I understand both sides.
SPEAKER_01 (43:52):
Yeah, and like if you have a question on that,
we'd love to hear from you.
737-231-0605.
We'd love to hear from you, talkyou through um how to process uh
where your church is, and maybegive us a specific question, and
we can give you a more specificanswer.
All right, I think that's allthe time we have for today.
Okay.
Hey, thanks so much forwatching.
We'll see you next time.
And uh, from our house to yours,have an awesome week.
(44:14):
Oh fortune.
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