May 22, 2025 • 41 mins
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357: What if your greatest struggle isn't with God, but with trusting the Holy Spirit working in others? In this revealing conversation, Pastor Plec and Nicole explore the often-misunderstood role of the Holy Spirit in transforming believers and healing church relationships. At the heart of the episode is a powerful insight: many church conflicts stem from our tendency to trust our own judgment rather than recognizing the Holy Spirit at work in other believers. "You don't have to trust me or the elders," Pastor Plec explains. "You've got to trust the Holy Spirit working in and through the leadership of the church." This perspective shift offers healing for those carrying church hurt and disappointment. Whether you're wrestling with church trust issues, feeling stuck in performance-based Christianity, or simply want to understand the Holy Spirit's role better, this conversation offers fresh perspective and practical wisdom.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec, andjoin me in studios.
None other than miss supertrooper nicole troop.
Uh, so glad you joined us thankyou so much.
I'm glad to be here yeah, so, uh, this week we talked about the
holy spirit and not something Idon't.
It's not like we're like thesuper church that finally talked
about the holy spirit, but it'snot one of those subjects that
(00:25):
comes up a ton, but itdefinitely comes up and it needs
to come up because I thinkthere's a part of us that don't
really wrap our heads aroundcorrectly about the Holy Spirit.
Now, nicole, for you, growingup, did you have any experience
with the Holy Spirit in terms ofchurch background?
No, all right, so was thatbecause you didn't go to church
(00:48):
at all?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, I didn't know what the Holy Spirit really was
until I became a Christian whenI was in high school.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I never really even heard of it?
Speaker 1 (00:58):
What kind of church did you go to in high school?
Speaker 2 (01:01):
So non-denominational .
That was secretly Baptist.
Okay, yeah, you can probablycall yeah A lot of us.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Yeah, okay.
So when I hit 22, I got savedat a non-denominational church,
or really, you know, it's kindof, if you, when did I actually
get saved?
I think sometimes it's at eight, but I really dedicated my life
to the Lord at 22.
And, um, it was in Louisville,kentucky, at Southeast Christian
church, and then I immediatelyleft that church because I was
(01:28):
in the army and I ended up inNorth Carolina, in Fayetteville,
which was an army town, and Istarted trying out all these
different churches.
I went to a Methodist church, Iwent to a charismatic church, I
went to a Baptist church, Iwent to any kind of, and I
didn't know one church fromanother.
I was like this is a newexperience.
(01:50):
And, um, I went to all sorts andone at one church, you know, it
was, uh, an experience where,like, people started falling all
over themselves.
I mean, it looked like theywere having a seizure and they
were shaking and somebodybrought a blanket over them and
(02:10):
then they said they had golddust in their hands and I was
like what is happening?
It was a wild experience.
That was a wild experience.
And then I went to otherchurches where it looked like
there was no spirit.
I wasn't sure if everybody wasalive in the church, and so it
really brought up.
you know, for me something I hadto learn or figure out is, you
(02:32):
know, a lot of people havedifferent understandings of the
Holy Spirit, his power and allof that, and so that was one of
the things that over the past 20plus years of being a Christian
or being dedicated to Jesus,I've been really sort of
wrestling with like what does itmean to who is the Holy Spirit,
(02:54):
what does it mean to engage himand seek him, and all that?
And we talked about that inthis letter to Corinth that Paul
goes to the reference of theHoly Spirit over and over again.
And what I loved about this ishe gives up this rhetorical
question, which I always thinkis funny.
(03:14):
I love Paul's rhetoricalquestions.
They're so ridiculous.
But at the same time, if he'shaving to ask it with the
definite, like you know what theanswer is because it's a
rhetorical question, with thedefinite, like you know what the
answer is because it's arhetorical question, I thought
it was funny.
So the rhetorical question heasks is do we need letters from
you or to you, letters ofrecommendation from you or to
you, which I know this soundswild, but you got to think about
(03:39):
how wild this was, Because itwasn't like people didn't know
Paul's story, Like I'm sure atsome point he shared with them
his testimony that he would goaround killing off Christians,
rounding them up, sentencingthem to their death At some
point he had to share that right.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
I don't think he was shy about that.
It comes up several times inmany of these letters.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
It's like all the time and so okay, so he shared
that.
But the thing is wild is likeJesus meets him personally and
says you know why are youpersecuting?
He's like who are you Lord?
So I know who I'm persecuting.
He's like I'm Jesus of Nazarethand he's like, oh, oops.
And then he's blinded, and thenhe's taken to a house and
(04:24):
you've got to imagine, the dudesthat were with Paul were pretty
freaked out.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Like he had some sort of vision and now he's blind,
all right.
But then this random dude fromPaul's perspective, this has got
to be wild.
He stays at this house, he'sfasting, praying, god, reveal
yourself to me.
And Ananias shows up.
And Ananias had been, and youknow Ananias had been, had been,
(04:50):
visited by Jesus in a dream.
He doesn't know that, but Jesustold Ananias like hey, go to
Saul.
He's on straight street andopen his eyes.
And he's like that guy's likepersecuting your people.
He's like I know and I'll showhim how much he has to suffer
for my name.
It's wild, like that's all inthere, okay.
Then ananias goes and then layshands on him and then he uh,
threw the laying on his hands,the scales fall off and then
he's given the gift of the holyspirit yeah now, I don't know
(05:13):
what it was like for thecorinthian church to receive the
holy spirit, but you have toimagine that it was pretty
intense or something, but itwasn't as intense as that.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
No, well, and I think that's kind of the like.
Everyone's faith experience isdifferent right.
And like how you come to faithis different, like some people
are like on death's doorstep andcoming to faith, you know.
Some people are living in whitesuburban America and coming to
(05:51):
faith, you know.
Or some of us are teenagers whodon't know anything about life
and coming to faith, you know.
And so it's just like.
I think it's different and youoften say, like everybody comes
to Christ in a crisis, right,whatever, the whatever the
crisis is you know, and itdoesn't have to be my life is
(06:12):
falling apart kind of crisis.
It could be an identity crisis,you know, and I think and I
think that's true here Like theway that we experience the Holy
spirit is different, the giftsthat we receive from God are
different, and like, even evenlike Pentecost, like when the,
the apostles, the 12, receiveRight.
(06:32):
And they describe what that'slike.
Like Paul's experience isvastly different from that.
It's still pretty intense, butlike the experience is very
different, right, you know?
Speaker 1 (06:41):
But what I think about is if the corinthians,
like whoever kind of like, theywere saved at one point, or they
were saved, they're saved, andthen all of a sudden they start
to distrust paul, for whateverreason.
I think if they had in their Idon't know front of mind his
(07:02):
story, there would be lesslikelihood of distrust because
you're like God operated in hislife in this way at that time
and you'd say I may not trustPaul, but I do trust the God who
saved him.
And I think that the reason whywe struggle with relationships
(07:24):
in the Christian church is weforget that God has a calling
and a specific mission forpeople, independent of our
relationship with one another.
But what happens is we've,since we forget that, we then
put distrust between us and thatother person because you person
(07:45):
, because they say things, theydo things, whatever the thing,
like with Paul's case, he saidhe was coming, but he didn't
come and they're like oh, wecan't trust you, your word is no
longer good around here.
And he's like what?
How can my word be no longergood?
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Do you think that the enemy is at all involved in
people's forgetting?
Oh, absolutely, I feel like theenemy is at all involved in
people's forgetting.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Oh, absolutely, I feel like the enemy is always
trying remember.
If in chapter two it said donot let satan outwit you, yeah,
because we are not ignorant ofhis schemes.
Which means satan has a actualplan which involves taking down
(08:25):
the bride of Christ and that hasto deal with forgiveness and
he'll use whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
he can get Right.
So, whatever weakness ofthought is in your mind, he can
use that against you, to turnyou against the people in your
church community.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Because if he could remember, if Jesus said I pray
that they'd be one as you,father, and I are one, I in them
, church community, right,because if he could remember, if
Jesus said I pray that they'dbe one as you, father and I are
one, I and them, they and me,we're all one, perfect unity.
Like that sort of mindset.
When they can get, or whenSatan can get in between
believers and make us fightourselves, then the battle is no
(09:02):
longer for souls that are lost,it's about the integrity of a
local church.
And that's exactly what wasgoing on in Corinth and Paul is
saying listen, the Holy Spirithas commended my ministry and
you are proof of that.
I recently had a conversationwith a guy.
I actually led to Christ and heleft the church for whatever
(09:23):
reason, and he's trying to.
He's talking about coming backand he's having.
He's having a hard time, youknow, wrapping his head around
events that led to his walkingaway.
And I said it all comes down tothe thing of trust.
You don't trust necessarily meor the elders of the church.
You've got to trust the HolySpirit working in and through
the leadership of the church,and this is where all church
(09:45):
hurt stems from.
Is people go those people andyou look at the bad things or
whatever, and you don't say Itrust the Holy Spirit working in
them because God will not letthem go beyond what his will is.
Now, to be fair, there arepeople at our church that have
come from churches that are gay,affirming At one point they
were, that's bad that have comefrom, like churches that are gay
(10:06):
affirming.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Like they are.
They at one point they were.
That's bad theology, that'slike a different.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
I don't think the Holy spirit is present, yeah,
and so I get.
I get the like where do youdraw the line on what you think
is the thing?
And that's a difficult, uhquestion.
But some question, butsomething like something that's
clearly sin and like it'sunrepentant, and engaging in
something that's like aquestionable leadership call.
(10:29):
That's where you're like ah man,check yourself before you wreck
yourself, because you neverknow, if God didn't direct that
certain decision that youthought, in the moment,
shouldn't go that way and then,hindsight being 2020, like, oh,
actually it did work outwhatever.
So, anyway, I think that's astruggle that people have in
ministry is that they tend totrust their own gut over the
(10:51):
Holy Spirit that is guiding theperson in leadership in this
specific case.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
So on Sunday you were sayingI'm trying to remember exactly
what you said, so forgive me ifI don't get it right.
But you.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
You were listening, which gives you a lot of credit.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I was listening but so so you were saying something
about like, uh, you liketrusting the person, but also
like trusting the holy spiritthat lives in that, in that
believer.
And that really struck me,because I I've been on staff
here for a little while now.
(11:28):
And we've had our fair share ofconflict.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
And there was one time, forever ago, I was mad at
you about something.
Of course, I don't evenremember what it was, to be
honest, but I was angry and Iwas at a women's group talking
about it.
And we're in Claudia Z a chair,as a paid his house yeah.
Claudia's a paid his house andshe looks at me and she's like
Nicole.
Do not give the devil a footholdnice and I'm just like oh, my
(11:54):
god that's wild and like she wasright, like my anger was a
foothold for Satan to workagainst me in the relationship
that I have with you, not onlyas my lead pastor but, at the
time, my boss too, and so that'ssomething that clearly has
stuck with me for several yearsnow.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Well, yeah, In fact, adrienne.
Well, our little communitygroup I wish Adrienne was up
here, but I'll talk about herbecause I think she's somewhere
backstage.
We were watching this video andit was on this exact thing and
the whole premise was don't givethe enemy a seat at the table.
You know, and like there is,the enemy is getting in to your
heart and your head through anunforgiveness or whatever
(12:40):
conflict in the past.
And then Adrian just startedbawling.
It was wild and she's likecause.
That happens right withinmarriage, within relationships
with children, with just acrossthe board, um, and ultimately,
what I've had to learn to do andAdrian's had to learn to do
with me is is she would saystuff like like um, I may not
(13:00):
trust you, but I trust the Holyspirit that's talking to you and
that has been encouraging forme on a marriage standpoint.
And ultimately she knows I'msubmitted to the Holy Spirit,
I'm submitted to Jesus, which isallowing her to follow me
because she knows that I'mspending time with God.
And so in her moments offriction or whatever, she
(13:22):
doesn't necessarily have totrust me.
She has to trust the HolySpirit working within.
I think this would save so manyrelationships If people just
had front of mind someone'ssalvation experience, when the
Spirit of God wrecked a personand they were transformed, or
(13:42):
the last time that they saw thatperson in worship, that person
connecting with God in whateverway, because you know that the
Lord is working in and throughthat.
So, I appreciate you sharingthat story Because I do feel
like we all go there.
We all can go to a dark spotwhen we don't trust the Holy
Spirit.
We trust our ability to discernmotives of somebody.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yeah, it's trusting in our own wisdom.
Right, it's the classicProverbs 3 line of like don't
rely on your own understanding.
Yeah, you know, lean on God'swisdom, that's right, and he'll
make your path straight.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yeah, trust in the Lord with all your heart.
Lean on your own understanding.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Proverbs 3.5.
He will direct your paths.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, so then we talked about how the Holy
Spirit's ministry outglories thelaw and I think this is where.
And tell me if this, I don'tknow, if this, I don't know, if
it frustrates you at all.
Sometimes I think people youmay have heard people say you
need to unhitch from the OldTestament, or like don't worry
(14:50):
about the Old Testament, and I'dsay, no, the Old Testament
reveal is a New Testamentconcealed and you have to look
for how Jesus is being revealedin it over and, over and over
again.
There's always glimpses of thegospel all throughout the Old
Testament.
However, the brightness ofJesus in the New Testament is so
glorious and so great that itexceeds the glory of the Old
(15:11):
Testament that had a fade to it.
Here's what the fade that Paulbrings up.
The fade one was that it wouldbe ultimately fulfilled.
The Old Testament law,specifically the ceremonial law,
would be fulfilled when Jesusfulfilled the law law
specifically, a ceremonial lawwould be fulfilled.
When Jesus fulfilled the law,but then also whenever Moses
would have meetings with God.
His face would glow likeShekinah.
Glory all over him.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
But that would fade Mm-hmm.
And he wore a veil not toprotect the Israelites from
seeing the shine, althoughthat's what he wore it for
originally.
He then wore it so that theywould not notice when it totally
(15:53):
faded away, which is sort ofwild.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah, which is true.
Right.
But think about this If I wentinto the Holy of Holies and I
came out with my face glowing,you'd be kind of concerned if
you saw me without my faceglowing.
Like oh, it's been a whilesince he met with God.
Can I really trust him?
I think that's probably whatMoses was dealing with Like.
It's been a while, so the onlyway I could properly illustrate
(16:20):
this on Sunday was like that theNew Testament is like the sun,
whereas the old Testament, uh,and the law, is like the moon.
Like the moon, it gave a littlebit of revelation of who God is
, and it was really helpful,especially for a world groping
in darkness.
But ultimately, the sun thatprovides heat, and it's so much
brighter it I don't say it putsit to shame, but it out glories
(16:41):
the moon by a million fold.
Yeah, this one piece, though,and I would love to hear what
you thought about this, cause Ikind of talk about the way that
Jesus fulfilled the differentparts of the law yes, ceremonial
law, moral law, civil law, didyou, did you catch that?
I did catch that, okay, did.
Was that something that you'dheard before?
Speaker 2 (17:01):
I mean you've talked about the different laws before.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Okay, so the ceremonial law.
Jesus fulfilled the ceremoniallaw Right.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
In other words, remember when Jesus which is the
high priest?
Speaker 1 (17:12):
that stuff, yeah yeah , it's like don't wear polyester
, don't eat pigs, men getcircumcised, you know, like that
kind of law that's purely.
The purpose of the ceremoniallaw was to make Israel distinct
from the rest of the nations tokeep it ceremonially pure.
(17:34):
Well, jesus said I didn't cometo abolish the law but to
fulfill the law.
So he doesn't abolish the OldTestament ceremonial law, he
fulfills that.
But then there are some lawsthat exist beyond the Old
Testament, like don't murder,still a thing.
But what Jesus did is he didsomething that's sort of wild.
(17:57):
He elevated the hatred youcould have in your heart to that
of murder.
He elevated the lust you couldhave in your heart to that of
murder.
He elevated the lust you couldhave in your heart to adultery.
And so when Jesus goes to thecross, every person finds
themselves dead in their sin.
But the Sermon on the Mount isnot a nice way to live.
(18:21):
It's a nice way for everybodyelse to live, but there's no way
that you can do it.
It's great when everybody elsedoes that.
They love their enemies.
They pray for those whopersecute them.
They offer them the other cheek.
They don't commit lust in theirhearts.
They don't commit murder intheir hearts.
They're just loving all thetime and you feel the weight of
that on you.
It'll break you.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Oh, for sure.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Like I'm an adulterer , I'm screwed, I'm a murderer.
What?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
point is there, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
I'm just going to quit right now.
I have no hope.
In fact, Jesus said unless yourrighteousness exceeds the
scribes and the Pharisees, youtoo cannot enter the kingdom of
heaven.
And then he says be perfect, asyour heavenly father is perfect
.
Right there you should be justlike.
I give up, and that's sort ofthe point.
You can't satisfy it becauseyou can't do it, and that's the
whole point of the law was tosay that you deserve death.
(19:12):
That's the whole point of it.
It's a ministry of condemnation, it's a ministry of death, and
it's actually it is a ministryto which everyone's like.
What do you mean?
It's a ministry.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Yeah, that was the part that kind of got me that
you were describing it as theHoly Spirit's ministry.
I was like that's aninteresting way.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
So the law has a ministry and its purpose is to
show you you can't keep it.
Then the Holy Spirit says I cando it for you.
You have no ability to do it, Ican do it.
And so Jesus, when he dies tosatisfy the moral law, so the
requirements of law, for thewages of sin is death.
So someone had to die on yourbehalf, jesus.
(19:49):
So he dies for the sins thatdeserve death.
But then, when he rose to reignand he sent us the Holy Spirit
to live under and shape civillaw while expanding his kingdom,
in the Old Testament the civillaw was like you know, if an ox
gores your neighbor, you owethem 20 shekels.
Or if, like, you have to coverup a well, and if somebody
(20:12):
else's ox falls into a well thatwasn't covered, then you have
to pay for the.
You know, it's that kind ofcivil liability issue.
Well, why are we evenmentioning that?
Because that was part of theOld Testament law.
But God has a civil law that welive under now, but not, I mean,
(20:33):
granted, we live under thecivil law of the state of Texas
and the United States.
We have to obey those laws.
There's certain speed limitsyou have to obey and you're like
just can't, I just can't do itbecause it's too slow.
Well, the holy spirit gives youthe ability to do that, uh, and
then.
But also we have the ability toshape law here, as.
So what happens here in austincan be done as it would be in
(20:55):
heaven, so that there's areality there that we are trying
to inform.
Shape, uh, law here, because wewant to see people ultimately
come to understand the love ofGod and his laws are best.
His ultimate laws are best.
Now I think there's some thingsopen to interpretation, like
how much somebody should be heldliable for whenever your
(21:16):
longhorn gores somebody but,that's all part of it.
So Jesus lived to fulfill theceremonial law.
He died to satisfy the morallaw.
He rose to reign and send theHoly spirit to empower us to
live under and shape civil lawwhile expanding his kingdom.
Yep.
Any other thoughts on thatCause?
(21:36):
I know that's a lot of it is.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
it is a lot, but I think I I think it kind of goes
back to what you were sayingearlier about how we shouldn't
ignore the Old Testament,because it does point us to
Jesus and in order to reallyunderstand the full weight and
glory of what Jesus did on thecross, we need to understand
what the Old Testamentrequirements were.
I'm really thankful that Idon't have to go to the temple a
(22:02):
gajillion times a day tosacrifice all these animals for
all the sins that I'm sinning.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
You know yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Because Jesus did that for me on the cross and his
blood covers my sins yesterday,tomorrow and forever.
So I think, personally I'm abig fan of the Old Testament and
I think more people should readit, especially Leviticus.
I feel like there's lots ofJesus language in Leviticus.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Oh, wow.
Yeah, but you know, look at you, leviticus reader.
You get full credit for that.
Thank you.
All right.
So this last point is gettinginto the whole.
We look when we read the word,we see it with unveiled face,
going back to whenever Israellooked at moses the glory was
covered, yeah, but when?
Now, when we look at god's word, the glory is unveiled for us
(22:50):
and we're able to see the gloryof god in the text of the bible.
And so we, uh all with unveiledface, behold the glory of the
lord are being transformed intothe same image from one degree
of glory to another, and I thinkwhen people hear this they're
like what does that even mean?
When you look at God's word, weknow that Jesus is the
(23:15):
incarnate word.
So in the beginning was theword and the word was with God,
and the word was God and theword was with God and the word
was God, and so because we knowthat we behold Jesus by looking
at the word of God and then wedon't be like James.
In James it says do not behearers only, but be doers of
(23:36):
the word, so don't just like,and what I thought about this is
like the Holy Spirit is whattransforms christians to be like
christ.
Yeah, and if I'm honest, Idon't know if this is something
that you struggle with at all,but I've several, uh, ladies
recently I've had I don't sayit's like happens all the time,
(23:56):
but a couple I've talked torecently and they've said that
they, you know there's, theywere saved once and they believe
all the things.
They doctrinally they're there,but they still didn't feel like
god loved them or god cared forthem, and and this sort of
(24:18):
surprised me, and so I in.
My only solution then it was tolead them through the sinner's
prayer, where they then, at theend of the sinner's prayer, I
asked people to invite the HolySpirit to come into their life
and make them the person theywant them to be, and I don't
listen like a prayer is just aprayer.
You're asking God to.
You know the prayer goes likethis Father, god in heaven, I
(24:40):
know I'm a sinner.
Jesus, you died on the crossfor my sins.
You rose from the dead.
Holy Spirit, come into my life,make me the person you want me
to be.
That's what you should praywhen you get saved, but that's
also what you should pray everysingle day.
And the reason why that becomesimportant is because you need
Holy Spirit power every day.
I think some people get savedand then they feel like they now
(25:02):
must be a doer of good thingsas opposed to live by the spirit
.
Well, the spirit of God is whatgives you freedom.
Why do you?
This goes to Galatians 5, donot be yoked again to a bondage
of slavery.
Yeah, meaning like there's thispart where you can be.
(25:23):
It is for freedom that you'vebeen set free.
So why are you white knucklingyour life?
Why are you living with deepanxiety about all the things
that you couldn't control beforeyou're a christian and now you
definitely can't control afteryou're a christian?
And god is always trying tobreak our hands off from the
control factor?
Yeah, so so here's, here's, uh,here's something I you know.
(25:43):
This is one of of the thingsthat I've been contemplating a
lot lately.
I have people read Luke 11.
And it's essentially the Lord'sPrayer.
And it goes like this hey,jesus, teach us to pray, and
he's like you know.
Father, your name is holy, yourkingdom come, give us this day
our daily bread.
(26:04):
Forgive us our trespasses.
We forgive those trespassesagainst us, at least not
temptation it's a short versionsuper sweet done yeah and then
jesus says uh, he shares like acouple parables, like you know,
when you pray, when praying islike this there was a man who,
uh, had a traveler come andvisit him and he had no bread to
set before him and so he wentto his neighbor's house, said,
(26:24):
friend, open the door.
And the guy said, no, I'm inbed with my kids and everyone's
tucked in, I'm not going to getup.
And he won't stop knocking.
He said he won't get up for himbecause he's a friend, but
because of his impudence,because of his boldness, he'll
give him whatever he wants.
It kind Sometimes with mychildren I'm like whatever you
want, just leave me alone, okay.
And so he'll give them whateverthey want, because he won't stop
(26:45):
asking them.
And then he goes how much more?
Or then he says that's how itis when you pray to God, but how
much more?
Your father in heaven answeryou and then he goes which one
of you who was evil?
But you know how to give goodgifts to your children?
If your son asks you for an egg, he's not going to give you a
scorpion.
If your son asks you for bread,he's not going to give you a
(27:06):
rock or you're not giving him arock.
He said you then, who are evil,know how to give good gifts to
your children.
How much more?
And this is the part that juststruck me he probably could have
said how much more will yourfather in heaven give good gifts
to those who ask him, but hedoesn't say that.
Luke 11, 13 says how much morewill he give the Holy Spirit to
those who ask him?
(27:29):
And then, as I thought about it,I went back to the kids asking
for food.
Do you know how many times aday my kids ask me for food?
Like all the time.
They know where it is, they cango get their own food, but for
some reason.
They still ask me and of courseI always point them to food,
which then kind of hit me, ithit me.
You don't just ask for an eggonce yeah.
(27:51):
You don't ask for a piece ofbread once yeah, and you're not
just like thrilled that Goddidn't give you a scorpion.
I still think that people areafraid that God's going to give
them a scorpion, like God'sgoing to give them a scorpion,
like he gave me the breadyesterday, but today it's a
scorpion.
He gave me the egg yesterday,but today it's going to be a
rock.
And so there's two parts tothat.
One is we need to come back toGod and ask for the greater
(28:13):
thing the Holy Spirit and trust.
He's not going to give us ascorpion.
I think what happens for a lotof Christians.
They got saved, however, longago and then they live like it's
all up to them, like somehowGod got them on the team and now
God needs to be carried by allthe people on the team who got
saved by grace and now by theirsheer willpower, the church is
(28:35):
going to be lifted up and Ithink God's saying come back to
me for more sustenance.
I promise I didn't give you ascorpion yesterday.
I'm not going to give you ascorpion yesterday.
I'm not going to give you ascorpion today.
Keep coming.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
You know what's really funny about this?
Please tell me so.
Julie Medford has beenmentoring, discipling me for a
while now and it's been great,and at one point I confessed to
her that I did not believe thatGod would give me good things.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Oh really.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Yes, this was a while ago.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
So, you're exactly the person I'm talking about.
I am, I am.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
And it's not like God has given me the bread before.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
You know, like God has done good things for me,
great things, unimaginablethings for me in the past and
for some reason I just like herecomes a scorpion.
Yeah, I just doubt.
Like you know, I like God'sjust going to keep me in my
misery and I think part of it isbecause that I still think that
that's what I deserve.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
And it's like it's.
It's another one of those likeoh well, jesus's death on the
cross wasn't enough.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
You know, like I'm.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
I needed more punishment, yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I need more punishment.
I deserve to suffer more.
I don't deserve all of thegoodness that God can give me
and I honestly, like I'm goingthrough a rough time right now,
which I know that you know.
I'm going through a rough timeright now, which I know that you
know, and but, like a part ofme believes that, like not a
part of me, most of me believesthat I brought this on myself
(30:11):
that.
I and that I deserve it andthat I deserve to stay here.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
And this is, yeah so like clearly a mindset that I
continue to struggle with but,like this is exactly this, is
exactly what it is, and I findmyself even in, even in prayers,
being like well, I did this tomyself, Lord, so I like don't
even deserve to ask you forsomething better.
You know, it's just like.
So like the asking isn't eventhere, because I don't think
(30:40):
that I even deserve to ask forthe good things.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Can I lead you in a prayer where you ask the Holy
Spirit?
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
All you have to do is repeat after me Father, god in
heaven.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Father God in heaven.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
I confess that I'm a sinner.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
I confess that I'm a sinner.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Jesus, you died on the cross for my sin.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Jesus, you died on the cross for my sin.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
You rose from the dead.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
You rose from the dead.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Holy Spirit, please come into my life.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Holy Spirit, please come into my life.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
And make me the person you want me to be, and
make me the person you want meto be In Jesus' name amen.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
In.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Jesus' name, amen.
So I think, I think that if thedaily asking, so remember,
there's two.
The Spirit fills us in two ways.
The one way is like when youbecome a Christian, you are
indwelt with the Spirit.
The spirit fills us in two ways.
The one way is like when youbecome a Christian, you were in
dwelt with the spirit.
You become a mobile temple or amobile tabernacle.
Yeah, okay, the other way,remember in.
Uh, it's where Ephesians, Ithink, do not be filled with
(31:34):
wine, do?
not be drunk with wine but befilled with the Holy spirit.
There is a sense that you canbe influenced by wine.
Okay, you have to take part offilling yourself, but in the
same way, ask to be filled withthe Holy Spirit.
How much more will your Fatherin heaven give the Holy Spirit
(31:58):
to those who ask?
And so I do think it's anindwelling that's permanent, but
it is the filling which is theconstant.
Like I need this today, I needthe Holy Spirit today, like I
need an egg today, like I needthe bread today, and he's not
going to give me a scorpion whenI'm asking for a Holy Spirit.
He's going to give me himself,which is what all I need, and
(32:19):
that's part of the reason.
You know, whenever we do theLord's Supper, I take the bread
and I break it.
I said Jesus was betrayed.
He took bread, broke it, and Isaid Jesus was betrayed.
He took bread, broke it andsaid this is my body given for
you.
Do this remembrance for me, andwhat the whole point of that is
to remember that your soulfeeds on Jesus like your body
feeds on bread.
(32:40):
You cannot go a moment withouthim, and the Holy Spirit is the
way that you get to experiencethe body of Christ and the
filling that of you up, and so Ithink there's a real powerful
moment within the communionexperience but, also a powerful
moment on the daily filling upof God's word, engaging in
(33:03):
spirit and then living outamongst his people.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Well, and he even says throughout the gospels like
I am the bread of life, I ameverlasting life, I am the way,
the truth of the life.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Um, he says to the woman at the well, like I am the
everlasting water, you know,like you will never need to
drink again yeah, so I've beenlistening to like, um, kind of
like it's a podcast that kind ofgoes over the history of the
church and it's looking.
It's looking at the modernhistory of the church.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
And it's looking.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
it's looking at the modern history of the church.
So back from the seventiesthere was, like the, the, the
Jesus movement.
It was more of a charismaticmovement which created the
worship wars.
Uh, like the worship war, ohyeah, you don't even know about
that.
So the worship wars came in theseventies and eighties and it
was about as back in the 70severyone had an organ and then
all of a sudden it moved to.
(33:51):
People brought started bringingguitars to church in the 80s
and it was we had.
They had gone to hell in ahandbasket and the worship wars
began like who the realchristians were.
All right then, but theneveryone was influenced by the
charismatic movement everyonehad an influence of like you
know.
Know, if you see anyone likewe're a Bible church, we would
not say we're charismatic by.
(34:13):
We're not really thatcharismatic.
But if you'll see people at ourchurch raise their hands, close
their eyes, people pray herewithout written prayers.
That's all influenced from thecharismatic movement.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Then you have the seeker-sensitive movement, which
we are all influenced by that.
The way we do our welcomeexperience, like the tent
outside good, positive signage,explaining where the children's
ministry is the children'sministry and making it awesome,
(34:46):
is a byproduct of the seekersensitive movement, and I'm not
thumbs down seeker-sensitivemovement.
What they did is they wanted tohelp you, experience felt needs
and how God could help you.
But what happened on thenegative side of the
seeker-sensitive movement?
It gave you like five steps toa better marriage.
If you do these five things,your marriage will be better.
And, honestly, if you readProverbs, there's like five.
(35:07):
If you do these things, inprinciple, these things would be
better.
But what happens yeah, when youcan't do it, it becomes back to
the law is what's ruling yourlife?
And if we were to go tobusiness, if we were going to go
to an entrepreneur class, theysay if you don't starting skills
(35:28):
, if you don't have sustainingskills and you don't have
self-awareness, do not be anentrepreneur.
You are going to be a failure.
Yeah, and so here's your KPIindex.
Here's your.
You know all the differentthings that you.
Here's the metrics you need tomeet and hit.
And that's how the secretsensitive movement was.
It was all about metrics andgrowth and bump and bump, and if
you weren't growing, somethingwas wrong with you, something
(35:49):
was wrong with the church.
Healthy things grow and that istrue, healthy things do grow.
But what ended up happening infrom a congregant standpoint is
that the old way was like you,you're a sinner, you stink,
you're not good, you're going tohell.
To.
The new way is like, if you'renot seeing success, there's
something wrong with you.
So then, ultimately, thegospel-centered movement of
(36:12):
young, restless and reformedcame about, and that's where you
really saw this Christ-centeredinfluence, where everything
came about the gospel, and soyou'll notice the influence
there is at the end of a message, even if it's from the song of
Solomon, I say this all is aboutJesus, um, and like we're
looking at second Corinthiansand it's about the Holy spirit,
(36:32):
and we say, like you cannotforgive people, you cannot love
people apart from receiving thelove of Jesus.
It is impossible.
And so if you haven't done that, if you have, if you do nothing
, then you do experience firstChrist, and so text Christ, you
know, text Jesus to receiveChrist.
And so that's sort of theinfluence of like always putting
(36:58):
the gospel into everything.
And then, probably the latestmovement is this post-Christian
world where we live in an upsidedown very liberal, you know,
gender is fluid.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
LGBTQ is being pushed and forced and if you're not
for that, there must besomething wrong with you to then
sort of like speaking to menand say, men, it's time for you
to lead and I think that'swhat's going to happen.
So there's a lot of there's.
Probably eventually you'll have, like you know, you become
ultra, ultra conservative andthat pushes you back to the
workspace, stuff of like I gotto earn my salvation, because
(37:30):
it's always this kindness thatleads us to repentance.
So, as I watched the church go,sort of like if the seeker
sensitive movement was sort ofliberalizing, the conservative
movement is sort of like superconservatizing, and so you're
always looking to sort ofbalance that, because you just
want to be biblical, be biblical, and although media can change
(37:50):
the principles and the gospelnever does, and so you're always
looking how can I present thegospel in a in in a way that
connects with people where theydon't feel this deep thing like
they're a failure because theydidn't live up to the whatever
standard.
They don't feel a Matthew fivethrough seven complete fail
because nobody's going to livethat out unless you have
(38:10):
complete reliance upon the HolySpirit of God.
And now you were able to liveit out.
So just sort of watching thedifferent influences of the
church and how discipleship hasbeen viewed in that, that makes
us kind of lean into Jesus,especially when you're looking
at this letter to a church thatwas so dysfunctional and yet was
experiencing all this growth,experiencing all this joy and
(38:34):
all this, um, the gifts of thespirit being very active in this
church.
It was sort of wild to see thateven they had issues with
apostle the apostle Paul, theguy that planted them they had
issues with.
So, uh, anyway, that was sortof encouraging in some ways and
then sort of frustrating that wewe'll probably never, ever get
beyond that.
Anyway, any other thoughts onthat?
That's a lot.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
I mean it's always a lot, chris, but I mean, like
that's going to be true, thisside of heaven, with anything
you know, like there's thisconstant swing, even on an
individual level, of like tryingto find the middle ground,
trying to walk the road thatjesus walked, and sometimes you
swing too far right andsometimes you swing too far left
, and it's just the nature.
(39:15):
It's the nature of being human,it's the nature of the church
being, you know, made up ofhuman beings who are sinful and
broken and living in a brokenworld.
Yeah, and so the more that wecan face that reality and accept
the truth of it, the more wecan be open to walking in the
light of Christ and being opento things like receiving the
(39:36):
Holy spirit and allowing theHoly spirit to lead us.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Yeah, and you know what else I think is, I think if
we could wrap our head aroundjust the idea that when we're
frustrated with somebody,knowing that that frustration is
for God's glory and our good,which you're just like, how's
that All things work for hisglory, for those who are called
according to his purpose andultimately our good.
(39:58):
And so I think that's the partall things work for good, for
those who are called accordingto his purpose.
And so I think what happens is,when we see friction, we don't
see.
That's probably a check on myown heart.
God's wanting to develop me aswell as do the thing at work, do
the thing in my family, do thething whatever.
He wants to grow me.
He's not going to bypass me toget to the thing that he wanted
(40:20):
to have happen.
He's going to use me, just likewith Moses.
He worked with Moses his wholeway to show his glory but
ultimately developed Moses intothe man of God he was ultimately
supposed to be.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
And I think that's how he's working on me, and I
think that's how he's working onyou, and if we can remember
that God's always doing that inand through us, we can have a
lot more grace for people,knowing that God's got it.
He's going to work on thepeople that we are in life with,
all right.
Well, hey, if you've got anyquestions, you'd love to chime
(40:51):
in on this podcast, go toPastorPleckcom or text us at
737-231-0605.
From our house to yours, havean awesome week of worship.
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec, andjoin me in studios.
None other than miss supertrooper nicole troop.
Uh, so glad you joined us thankyou so much.
I'm glad to be here yeah, so, uh, this week we talked about the
holy spirit and not something Idon't.
It's not like we're like thesuper church that finally talked
about the holy spirit, but it'snot one of those subjects that
(00:25):
comes up a ton, but itdefinitely comes up and it needs
to come up because I thinkthere's a part of us that don't
really wrap our heads aroundcorrectly about the Holy Spirit.
Now, nicole, for you, growingup, did you have any experience
with the Holy Spirit in terms ofchurch background?
No, all right, so was thatbecause you didn't go to church
(00:48):
at all?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, I didn't know what the Holy Spirit really was
until I became a Christian whenI was in high school.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I never really even heard of it?
Speaker 1 (00:58):
What kind of church did you go to in high school?
Speaker 2 (01:01):
So non-denominational .
That was secretly Baptist.
Okay, yeah, you can probablycall yeah A lot of us.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Yeah, okay.
So when I hit 22, I got savedat a non-denominational church,
or really, you know, it's kindof, if you, when did I actually
get saved?
I think sometimes it's at eight, but I really dedicated my life
to the Lord at 22.
And, um, it was in Louisville,kentucky, at Southeast Christian
church, and then I immediatelyleft that church because I was
(01:28):
in the army and I ended up inNorth Carolina, in Fayetteville,
which was an army town, and Istarted trying out all these
different churches.
I went to a Methodist church, Iwent to a charismatic church, I
went to a Baptist church, Iwent to any kind of, and I
didn't know one church fromanother.
I was like this is a newexperience.
(01:50):
And, um, I went to all sorts andone at one church, you know, it
was, uh, an experience where,like, people started falling all
over themselves.
I mean, it looked like theywere having a seizure and they
were shaking and somebodybrought a blanket over them and
(02:10):
then they said they had golddust in their hands and I was
like what is happening?
It was a wild experience.
That was a wild experience.
And then I went to otherchurches where it looked like
there was no spirit.
I wasn't sure if everybody wasalive in the church, and so it
really brought up.
you know, for me something I hadto learn or figure out is, you
(02:32):
know, a lot of people havedifferent understandings of the
Holy Spirit, his power and allof that, and so that was one of
the things that over the past 20plus years of being a Christian
or being dedicated to Jesus,I've been really sort of
wrestling with like what does itmean to who is the Holy Spirit,
(02:54):
what does it mean to engage himand seek him, and all that?
And we talked about that inthis letter to Corinth that Paul
goes to the reference of theHoly Spirit over and over again.
And what I loved about this ishe gives up this rhetorical
question, which I always thinkis funny.
(03:14):
I love Paul's rhetoricalquestions.
They're so ridiculous.
But at the same time, if he'shaving to ask it with the
definite, like you know what theanswer is because it's a
rhetorical question, with thedefinite, like you know what the
answer is because it's arhetorical question, I thought
it was funny.
So the rhetorical question heasks is do we need letters from
you or to you, letters ofrecommendation from you or to
you, which I know this soundswild, but you got to think about
(03:39):
how wild this was, Because itwasn't like people didn't know
Paul's story, Like I'm sure atsome point he shared with them
his testimony that he would goaround killing off Christians,
rounding them up, sentencingthem to their death At some
point he had to share that right.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
I don't think he was shy about that.
It comes up several times inmany of these letters.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
It's like all the time and so okay, so he shared
that.
But the thing is wild is likeJesus meets him personally and
says you know why are youpersecuting?
He's like who are you Lord?
So I know who I'm persecuting.
He's like I'm Jesus of Nazarethand he's like, oh, oops.
And then he's blinded, and thenhe's taken to a house and
(04:24):
you've got to imagine, the dudesthat were with Paul were pretty
freaked out.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Like he had some sort of vision and now he's blind,
all right.
But then this random dude fromPaul's perspective, this has got
to be wild.
He stays at this house, he'sfasting, praying, god, reveal
yourself to me.
And Ananias shows up.
And Ananias had been, and youknow Ananias had been, had been,
(04:50):
visited by Jesus in a dream.
He doesn't know that, but Jesustold Ananias like hey, go to
Saul.
He's on straight street andopen his eyes.
And he's like that guy's likepersecuting your people.
He's like I know and I'll showhim how much he has to suffer
for my name.
It's wild, like that's all inthere, okay.
Then ananias goes and then layshands on him and then he uh,
threw the laying on his hands,the scales fall off and then
he's given the gift of the holyspirit yeah now, I don't know
(05:13):
what it was like for thecorinthian church to receive the
holy spirit, but you have toimagine that it was pretty
intense or something, but itwasn't as intense as that.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
No, well, and I think that's kind of the like.
Everyone's faith experience isdifferent right.
And like how you come to faithis different, like some people
are like on death's doorstep andcoming to faith, you know.
Some people are living in whitesuburban America and coming to
(05:51):
faith, you know.
Or some of us are teenagers whodon't know anything about life
and coming to faith, you know.
And so it's just like.
I think it's different and youoften say, like everybody comes
to Christ in a crisis, right,whatever, the whatever the
crisis is you know, and itdoesn't have to be my life is
(06:12):
falling apart kind of crisis.
It could be an identity crisis,you know, and I think and I
think that's true here Like theway that we experience the Holy
spirit is different, the giftsthat we receive from God are
different, and like, even evenlike Pentecost, like when the,
the apostles, the 12, receiveRight.
(06:32):
And they describe what that'slike.
Like Paul's experience isvastly different from that.
It's still pretty intense, butlike the experience is very
different, right, you know?
Speaker 1 (06:41):
But what I think about is if the corinthians,
like whoever kind of like, theywere saved at one point, or they
were saved, they're saved, andthen all of a sudden they start
to distrust paul, for whateverreason.
I think if they had in their Idon't know front of mind his
(07:02):
story, there would be lesslikelihood of distrust because
you're like God operated in hislife in this way at that time
and you'd say I may not trustPaul, but I do trust the God who
saved him.
And I think that the reason whywe struggle with relationships
(07:24):
in the Christian church is weforget that God has a calling
and a specific mission forpeople, independent of our
relationship with one another.
But what happens is we've,since we forget that, we then
put distrust between us and thatother person because you person
(07:45):
, because they say things, theydo things, whatever the thing,
like with Paul's case, he saidhe was coming, but he didn't
come and they're like oh, wecan't trust you, your word is no
longer good around here.
And he's like what?
How can my word be no longergood?
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Do you think that the enemy is at all involved in
people's forgetting?
Oh, absolutely, I feel like theenemy is at all involved in
people's forgetting.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Oh, absolutely, I feel like the enemy is always
trying remember.
If in chapter two it said donot let satan outwit you, yeah,
because we are not ignorant ofhis schemes.
Which means satan has a actualplan which involves taking down
(08:25):
the bride of Christ and that hasto deal with forgiveness and
he'll use whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
he can get Right.
So, whatever weakness ofthought is in your mind, he can
use that against you, to turnyou against the people in your
church community.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Because if he could remember, if Jesus said I pray
that they'd be one as you,father, and I are one, I in them
, church community, right,because if he could remember, if
Jesus said I pray that they'dbe one as you, father and I are
one, I and them, they and me,we're all one, perfect unity.
Like that sort of mindset.
When they can get, or whenSatan can get in between
believers and make us fightourselves, then the battle is no
(09:02):
longer for souls that are lost,it's about the integrity of a
local church.
And that's exactly what wasgoing on in Corinth and Paul is
saying listen, the Holy Spirithas commended my ministry and
you are proof of that.
I recently had a conversationwith a guy.
I actually led to Christ and heleft the church for whatever
(09:23):
reason, and he's trying to.
He's talking about coming backand he's having.
He's having a hard time, youknow, wrapping his head around
events that led to his walkingaway.
And I said it all comes down tothe thing of trust.
You don't trust necessarily meor the elders of the church.
You've got to trust the HolySpirit working in and through
the leadership of the church,and this is where all church
(09:45):
hurt stems from.
Is people go those people andyou look at the bad things or
whatever, and you don't say Itrust the Holy Spirit working in
them because God will not letthem go beyond what his will is.
Now, to be fair, there arepeople at our church that have
come from churches that are gay,affirming At one point they
were, that's bad that have comefrom, like churches that are gay
(10:06):
affirming.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Like they are.
They at one point they were.
That's bad theology, that'slike a different.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
I don't think the Holy spirit is present, yeah,
and so I get.
I get the like where do youdraw the line on what you think
is the thing?
And that's a difficult, uhquestion.
But some question, butsomething like something that's
clearly sin and like it'sunrepentant, and engaging in
something that's like aquestionable leadership call.
(10:29):
That's where you're like ah man,check yourself before you wreck
yourself, because you neverknow, if God didn't direct that
certain decision that youthought, in the moment,
shouldn't go that way and then,hindsight being 2020, like, oh,
actually it did work outwhatever.
So, anyway, I think that's astruggle that people have in
ministry is that they tend totrust their own gut over the
(10:51):
Holy Spirit that is guiding theperson in leadership in this
specific case.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
So on Sunday you were sayingI'm trying to remember exactly
what you said, so forgive me ifI don't get it right.
But you.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
You were listening, which gives you a lot of credit.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I was listening but so so you were saying something
about like, uh, you liketrusting the person, but also
like trusting the holy spiritthat lives in that, in that
believer.
And that really struck me,because I I've been on staff
here for a little while now.
(11:28):
And we've had our fair share ofconflict.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
And there was one time, forever ago, I was mad at
you about something.
Of course, I don't evenremember what it was, to be
honest, but I was angry and Iwas at a women's group talking
about it.
And we're in Claudia Z a chair,as a paid his house yeah.
Claudia's a paid his house andshe looks at me and she's like
Nicole.
Do not give the devil a footholdnice and I'm just like oh, my
(11:54):
god that's wild and like she wasright, like my anger was a
foothold for Satan to workagainst me in the relationship
that I have with you, not onlyas my lead pastor but, at the
time, my boss too, and so that'ssomething that clearly has
stuck with me for several yearsnow.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Well, yeah, In fact, adrienne.
Well, our little communitygroup I wish Adrienne was up
here, but I'll talk about herbecause I think she's somewhere
backstage.
We were watching this video andit was on this exact thing and
the whole premise was don't givethe enemy a seat at the table.
You know, and like there is,the enemy is getting in to your
heart and your head through anunforgiveness or whatever
(12:40):
conflict in the past.
And then Adrian just startedbawling.
It was wild and she's likecause.
That happens right withinmarriage, within relationships
with children, with just acrossthe board, um, and ultimately,
what I've had to learn to do andAdrian's had to learn to do
with me is is she would saystuff like like um, I may not
(13:00):
trust you, but I trust the Holyspirit that's talking to you and
that has been encouraging forme on a marriage standpoint.
And ultimately she knows I'msubmitted to the Holy Spirit,
I'm submitted to Jesus, which isallowing her to follow me
because she knows that I'mspending time with God.
And so in her moments offriction or whatever, she
(13:22):
doesn't necessarily have totrust me.
She has to trust the HolySpirit working within.
I think this would save so manyrelationships If people just
had front of mind someone'ssalvation experience, when the
Spirit of God wrecked a personand they were transformed, or
(13:42):
the last time that they saw thatperson in worship, that person
connecting with God in whateverway, because you know that the
Lord is working in and throughthat.
So, I appreciate you sharingthat story Because I do feel
like we all go there.
We all can go to a dark spotwhen we don't trust the Holy
Spirit.
We trust our ability to discernmotives of somebody.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yeah, it's trusting in our own wisdom.
Right, it's the classicProverbs 3 line of like don't
rely on your own understanding.
Yeah, you know, lean on God'swisdom, that's right, and he'll
make your path straight.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yeah, trust in the Lord with all your heart.
Lean on your own understanding.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Proverbs 3.5.
He will direct your paths.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, so then we talked about how the Holy
Spirit's ministry outglories thelaw and I think this is where.
And tell me if this, I don'tknow, if this, I don't know, if
it frustrates you at all.
Sometimes I think people youmay have heard people say you
need to unhitch from the OldTestament, or like don't worry
(14:50):
about the Old Testament, and I'dsay, no, the Old Testament
reveal is a New Testamentconcealed and you have to look
for how Jesus is being revealedin it over and, over and over
again.
There's always glimpses of thegospel all throughout the Old
Testament.
However, the brightness ofJesus in the New Testament is so
glorious and so great that itexceeds the glory of the Old
(15:11):
Testament that had a fade to it.
Here's what the fade that Paulbrings up.
The fade one was that it wouldbe ultimately fulfilled.
The Old Testament law,specifically the ceremonial law,
would be fulfilled when Jesusfulfilled the law law
specifically, a ceremonial lawwould be fulfilled.
When Jesus fulfilled the law,but then also whenever Moses
would have meetings with God.
His face would glow likeShekinah.
Glory all over him.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
But that would fade Mm-hmm.
And he wore a veil not toprotect the Israelites from
seeing the shine, althoughthat's what he wore it for
originally.
He then wore it so that theywould not notice when it totally
(15:53):
faded away, which is sort ofwild.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah, which is true.
Right.
But think about this If I wentinto the Holy of Holies and I
came out with my face glowing,you'd be kind of concerned if
you saw me without my faceglowing.
Like oh, it's been a whilesince he met with God.
Can I really trust him?
I think that's probably whatMoses was dealing with Like.
It's been a while, so the onlyway I could properly illustrate
(16:20):
this on Sunday was like that theNew Testament is like the sun,
whereas the old Testament, uh,and the law, is like the moon.
Like the moon, it gave a littlebit of revelation of who God is
, and it was really helpful,especially for a world groping
in darkness.
But ultimately, the sun thatprovides heat, and it's so much
brighter it I don't say it putsit to shame, but it out glories
(16:41):
the moon by a million fold.
Yeah, this one piece, though,and I would love to hear what
you thought about this, cause Ikind of talk about the way that
Jesus fulfilled the differentparts of the law yes, ceremonial
law, moral law, civil law, didyou, did you catch that?
I did catch that, okay, did.
Was that something that you'dheard before?
Speaker 2 (17:01):
I mean you've talked about the different laws before.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Okay, so the ceremonial law.
Jesus fulfilled the ceremoniallaw Right.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
In other words, remember when Jesus which is the
high priest?
Speaker 1 (17:12):
that stuff, yeah yeah , it's like don't wear polyester
, don't eat pigs, men getcircumcised, you know, like that
kind of law that's purely.
The purpose of the ceremoniallaw was to make Israel distinct
from the rest of the nations tokeep it ceremonially pure.
(17:34):
Well, jesus said I didn't cometo abolish the law but to
fulfill the law.
So he doesn't abolish the OldTestament ceremonial law, he
fulfills that.
But then there are some lawsthat exist beyond the Old
Testament, like don't murder,still a thing.
But what Jesus did is he didsomething that's sort of wild.
(17:57):
He elevated the hatred youcould have in your heart to that
of murder.
He elevated the lust you couldhave in your heart to that of
murder.
He elevated the lust you couldhave in your heart to adultery.
And so when Jesus goes to thecross, every person finds
themselves dead in their sin.
But the Sermon on the Mount isnot a nice way to live.
(18:21):
It's a nice way for everybodyelse to live, but there's no way
that you can do it.
It's great when everybody elsedoes that.
They love their enemies.
They pray for those whopersecute them.
They offer them the other cheek.
They don't commit lust in theirhearts.
They don't commit murder intheir hearts.
They're just loving all thetime and you feel the weight of
that on you.
It'll break you.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Oh, for sure.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Like I'm an adulterer , I'm screwed, I'm a murderer.
What?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
point is there, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
I'm just going to quit right now.
I have no hope.
In fact, Jesus said unless yourrighteousness exceeds the
scribes and the Pharisees, youtoo cannot enter the kingdom of
heaven.
And then he says be perfect, asyour heavenly father is perfect
.
Right there you should be justlike.
I give up, and that's sort ofthe point.
You can't satisfy it becauseyou can't do it, and that's the
whole point of the law was tosay that you deserve death.
(19:12):
That's the whole point of it.
It's a ministry of condemnation, it's a ministry of death, and
it's actually it is a ministryto which everyone's like.
What do you mean?
It's a ministry.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Yeah, that was the part that kind of got me that
you were describing it as theHoly Spirit's ministry.
I was like that's aninteresting way.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
So the law has a ministry and its purpose is to
show you you can't keep it.
Then the Holy Spirit says I cando it for you.
You have no ability to do it, Ican do it.
And so Jesus, when he dies tosatisfy the moral law, so the
requirements of law, for thewages of sin is death.
So someone had to die on yourbehalf, jesus.
(19:49):
So he dies for the sins thatdeserve death.
But then, when he rose to reignand he sent us the Holy Spirit
to live under and shape civillaw while expanding his kingdom,
in the Old Testament the civillaw was like you know, if an ox
gores your neighbor, you owethem 20 shekels.
Or if, like, you have to coverup a well, and if somebody
(20:12):
else's ox falls into a well thatwasn't covered, then you have
to pay for the.
You know, it's that kind ofcivil liability issue.
Well, why are we evenmentioning that?
Because that was part of theOld Testament law.
But God has a civil law that welive under now, but not, I mean,
(20:33):
granted, we live under thecivil law of the state of Texas
and the United States.
We have to obey those laws.
There's certain speed limitsyou have to obey and you're like
just can't, I just can't do itbecause it's too slow.
Well, the holy spirit gives youthe ability to do that, uh, and
then.
But also we have the ability toshape law here, as.
So what happens here in austincan be done as it would be in
(20:55):
heaven, so that there's areality there that we are trying
to inform.
Shape, uh, law here, because wewant to see people ultimately
come to understand the love ofGod and his laws are best.
His ultimate laws are best.
Now I think there's some thingsopen to interpretation, like
how much somebody should be heldliable for whenever your
(21:16):
longhorn gores somebody but,that's all part of it.
So Jesus lived to fulfill theceremonial law.
He died to satisfy the morallaw.
He rose to reign and send theHoly spirit to empower us to
live under and shape civil lawwhile expanding his kingdom.
Yep.
Any other thoughts on thatCause?
(21:36):
I know that's a lot of it is.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
it is a lot, but I think I I think it kind of goes
back to what you were sayingearlier about how we shouldn't
ignore the Old Testament,because it does point us to
Jesus and in order to reallyunderstand the full weight and
glory of what Jesus did on thecross, we need to understand
what the Old Testamentrequirements were.
I'm really thankful that Idon't have to go to the temple a
(22:02):
gajillion times a day tosacrifice all these animals for
all the sins that I'm sinning.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
You know yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Because Jesus did that for me on the cross and his
blood covers my sins yesterday,tomorrow and forever.
So I think, personally I'm abig fan of the Old Testament and
I think more people should readit, especially Leviticus.
I feel like there's lots ofJesus language in Leviticus.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Oh, wow.
Yeah, but you know, look at you, leviticus reader.
You get full credit for that.
Thank you.
All right.
So this last point is gettinginto the whole.
We look when we read the word,we see it with unveiled face,
going back to whenever Israellooked at moses the glory was
covered, yeah, but when?
Now, when we look at god's word, the glory is unveiled for us
(22:50):
and we're able to see the gloryof god in the text of the bible.
And so we, uh all with unveiledface, behold the glory of the
lord are being transformed intothe same image from one degree
of glory to another, and I thinkwhen people hear this they're
like what does that even mean?
When you look at God's word, weknow that Jesus is the
(23:15):
incarnate word.
So in the beginning was theword and the word was with God,
and the word was God and theword was with God and the word
was God, and so because we knowthat we behold Jesus by looking
at the word of God and then wedon't be like James.
In James it says do not behearers only, but be doers of
(23:36):
the word, so don't just like,and what I thought about this is
like the Holy Spirit is whattransforms christians to be like
christ.
Yeah, and if I'm honest, Idon't know if this is something
that you struggle with at all,but I've several, uh, ladies
recently I've had I don't sayit's like happens all the time,
(23:56):
but a couple I've talked torecently and they've said that
they, you know there's, theywere saved once and they believe
all the things.
They doctrinally they're there,but they still didn't feel like
god loved them or god cared forthem, and and this sort of
(24:18):
surprised me, and so I in.
My only solution then it was tolead them through the sinner's
prayer, where they then, at theend of the sinner's prayer, I
asked people to invite the HolySpirit to come into their life
and make them the person theywant them to be, and I don't
listen like a prayer is just aprayer.
You're asking God to.
You know the prayer goes likethis Father, god in heaven, I
(24:40):
know I'm a sinner.
Jesus, you died on the crossfor my sins.
You rose from the dead.
Holy Spirit, come into my life,make me the person you want me
to be.
That's what you should praywhen you get saved, but that's
also what you should pray everysingle day.
And the reason why that becomesimportant is because you need
Holy Spirit power every day.
I think some people get savedand then they feel like they now
(25:02):
must be a doer of good thingsas opposed to live by the spirit
.
Well, the spirit of God is whatgives you freedom.
Why do you?
This goes to Galatians 5, donot be yoked again to a bondage
of slavery.
Yeah, meaning like there's thispart where you can be.
(25:23):
It is for freedom that you'vebeen set free.
So why are you white knucklingyour life?
Why are you living with deepanxiety about all the things
that you couldn't control beforeyou're a christian and now you
definitely can't control afteryou're a christian?
And god is always trying tobreak our hands off from the
control factor?
Yeah, so so here's, here's, uh,here's something I you know.
(25:43):
This is one of of the thingsthat I've been contemplating a
lot lately.
I have people read Luke 11.
And it's essentially the Lord'sPrayer.
And it goes like this hey,jesus, teach us to pray, and
he's like you know.
Father, your name is holy, yourkingdom come, give us this day
our daily bread.
(26:04):
Forgive us our trespasses.
We forgive those trespassesagainst us, at least not
temptation it's a short versionsuper sweet done yeah and then
jesus says uh, he shares like acouple parables, like you know,
when you pray, when praying islike this there was a man who,
uh, had a traveler come andvisit him and he had no bread to
set before him and so he wentto his neighbor's house, said,
(26:24):
friend, open the door.
And the guy said, no, I'm inbed with my kids and everyone's
tucked in, I'm not going to getup.
And he won't stop knocking.
He said he won't get up for himbecause he's a friend, but
because of his impudence,because of his boldness, he'll
give him whatever he wants.
It kind Sometimes with mychildren I'm like whatever you
want, just leave me alone, okay.
And so he'll give them whateverthey want, because he won't stop
(26:45):
asking them.
And then he goes how much more?
Or then he says that's how itis when you pray to God, but how
much more?
Your father in heaven answeryou and then he goes which one
of you who was evil?
But you know how to give goodgifts to your children?
If your son asks you for an egg, he's not going to give you a
scorpion.
If your son asks you for bread,he's not going to give you a
(27:06):
rock or you're not giving him arock.
He said you then, who are evil,know how to give good gifts to
your children.
How much more?
And this is the part that juststruck me he probably could have
said how much more will yourfather in heaven give good gifts
to those who ask him, but hedoesn't say that.
Luke 11, 13 says how much morewill he give the Holy Spirit to
those who ask him?
(27:29):
And then, as I thought about it,I went back to the kids asking
for food.
Do you know how many times aday my kids ask me for food?
Like all the time.
They know where it is, they cango get their own food, but for
some reason.
They still ask me and of courseI always point them to food,
which then kind of hit me, ithit me.
You don't just ask for an eggonce yeah.
(27:51):
You don't ask for a piece ofbread once yeah, and you're not
just like thrilled that Goddidn't give you a scorpion.
I still think that people areafraid that God's going to give
them a scorpion, like God'sgoing to give them a scorpion,
like he gave me the breadyesterday, but today it's a
scorpion.
He gave me the egg yesterday,but today it's going to be a
rock.
And so there's two parts tothat.
One is we need to come back toGod and ask for the greater
(28:13):
thing the Holy Spirit and trust.
He's not going to give us ascorpion.
I think what happens for a lotof Christians.
They got saved, however, longago and then they live like it's
all up to them, like somehowGod got them on the team and now
God needs to be carried by allthe people on the team who got
saved by grace and now by theirsheer willpower, the church is
(28:35):
going to be lifted up and Ithink God's saying come back to
me for more sustenance.
I promise I didn't give you ascorpion yesterday.
I'm not going to give you ascorpion yesterday.
I'm not going to give you ascorpion today.
Keep coming.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
You know what's really funny about this?
Please tell me so.
Julie Medford has beenmentoring, discipling me for a
while now and it's been great,and at one point I confessed to
her that I did not believe thatGod would give me good things.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Oh really.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Yes, this was a while ago.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
So, you're exactly the person I'm talking about.
I am, I am.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
And it's not like God has given me the bread before.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
You know, like God has done good things for me,
great things, unimaginablethings for me in the past and
for some reason I just like herecomes a scorpion.
Yeah, I just doubt.
Like you know, I like God'sjust going to keep me in my
misery and I think part of it isbecause that I still think that
that's what I deserve.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
And it's like it's.
It's another one of those likeoh well, jesus's death on the
cross wasn't enough.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
You know, like I'm.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
I needed more punishment, yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I need more punishment.
I deserve to suffer more.
I don't deserve all of thegoodness that God can give me
and I honestly, like I'm goingthrough a rough time right now,
which I know that you know.
I'm going through a rough timeright now, which I know that you
know, and but, like a part ofme believes that, like not a
part of me, most of me believesthat I brought this on myself
(30:11):
that.
I and that I deserve it andthat I deserve to stay here.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
And this is, yeah so like clearly a mindset that I
continue to struggle with but,like this is exactly this, is
exactly what it is, and I findmyself even in, even in prayers,
being like well, I did this tomyself, Lord, so I like don't
even deserve to ask you forsomething better.
You know, it's just like.
So like the asking isn't eventhere, because I don't think
(30:40):
that I even deserve to ask forthe good things.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Can I lead you in a prayer where you ask the Holy
Spirit?
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
All you have to do is repeat after me Father, god in
heaven.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Father God in heaven.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
I confess that I'm a sinner.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
I confess that I'm a sinner.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Jesus, you died on the cross for my sin.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Jesus, you died on the cross for my sin.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
You rose from the dead.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
You rose from the dead.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Holy Spirit, please come into my life.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Holy Spirit, please come into my life.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
And make me the person you want me to be, and
make me the person you want meto be In Jesus' name amen.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
In.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Jesus' name, amen.
So I think, I think that if thedaily asking, so remember,
there's two.
The Spirit fills us in two ways.
The one way is like when youbecome a Christian, you are
indwelt with the Spirit.
The spirit fills us in two ways.
The one way is like when youbecome a Christian, you were in
dwelt with the spirit.
You become a mobile temple or amobile tabernacle.
Yeah, okay, the other way,remember in.
Uh, it's where Ephesians, Ithink, do not be filled with
(31:34):
wine, do?
not be drunk with wine but befilled with the Holy spirit.
There is a sense that you canbe influenced by wine.
Okay, you have to take part offilling yourself, but in the
same way, ask to be filled withthe Holy Spirit.
How much more will your Fatherin heaven give the Holy Spirit
(31:58):
to those who ask?
And so I do think it's anindwelling that's permanent, but
it is the filling which is theconstant.
Like I need this today, I needthe Holy Spirit today, like I
need an egg today, like I needthe bread today, and he's not
going to give me a scorpion whenI'm asking for a Holy Spirit.
He's going to give me himself,which is what all I need, and
(32:19):
that's part of the reason.
You know, whenever we do theLord's Supper, I take the bread
and I break it.
I said Jesus was betrayed.
He took bread, broke it, and Isaid Jesus was betrayed.
He took bread, broke it andsaid this is my body given for
you.
Do this remembrance for me, andwhat the whole point of that is
to remember that your soulfeeds on Jesus like your body
feeds on bread.
(32:40):
You cannot go a moment withouthim, and the Holy Spirit is the
way that you get to experiencethe body of Christ and the
filling that of you up, and so Ithink there's a real powerful
moment within the communionexperience but, also a powerful
moment on the daily filling upof God's word, engaging in
(33:03):
spirit and then living outamongst his people.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Well, and he even says throughout the gospels like
I am the bread of life, I ameverlasting life, I am the way,
the truth of the life.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Um, he says to the woman at the well, like I am the
everlasting water, you know,like you will never need to
drink again yeah, so I've beenlistening to like, um, kind of
like it's a podcast that kind ofgoes over the history of the
church and it's looking.
It's looking at the modernhistory of the church.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
And it's looking.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
it's looking at the modern history of the church.
So back from the seventiesthere was, like the, the, the
Jesus movement.
It was more of a charismaticmovement which created the
worship wars.
Uh, like the worship war, ohyeah, you don't even know about
that.
So the worship wars came in theseventies and eighties and it
was about as back in the 70severyone had an organ and then
all of a sudden it moved to.
(33:51):
People brought started bringingguitars to church in the 80s
and it was we had.
They had gone to hell in ahandbasket and the worship wars
began like who the realchristians were.
All right then, but theneveryone was influenced by the
charismatic movement everyonehad an influence of like you
know.
Know, if you see anyone likewe're a Bible church, we would
not say we're charismatic by.
(34:13):
We're not really thatcharismatic.
But if you'll see people at ourchurch raise their hands, close
their eyes, people pray herewithout written prayers.
That's all influenced from thecharismatic movement.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Then you have the seeker-sensitive movement, which
we are all influenced by that.
The way we do our welcomeexperience, like the tent
outside good, positive signage,explaining where the children's
ministry is the children'sministry and making it awesome,
(34:46):
is a byproduct of the seekersensitive movement, and I'm not
thumbs down seeker-sensitivemovement.
What they did is they wanted tohelp you, experience felt needs
and how God could help you.
But what happened on thenegative side of the
seeker-sensitive movement?
It gave you like five steps toa better marriage.
If you do these five things,your marriage will be better.
And, honestly, if you readProverbs, there's like five.
(35:07):
If you do these things, inprinciple, these things would be
better.
But what happens yeah, when youcan't do it, it becomes back to
the law is what's ruling yourlife?
And if we were to go tobusiness, if we were going to go
to an entrepreneur class, theysay if you don't starting skills
(35:28):
, if you don't have sustainingskills and you don't have
self-awareness, do not be anentrepreneur.
You are going to be a failure.
Yeah, and so here's your KPIindex.
Here's your.
You know all the differentthings that you.
Here's the metrics you need tomeet and hit.
And that's how the secretsensitive movement was.
It was all about metrics andgrowth and bump and bump, and if
you weren't growing, somethingwas wrong with you, something
(35:49):
was wrong with the church.
Healthy things grow and that istrue, healthy things do grow.
But what ended up happening infrom a congregant standpoint is
that the old way was like you,you're a sinner, you stink,
you're not good, you're going tohell.
To.
The new way is like, if you'renot seeing success, there's
something wrong with you.
So then, ultimately, thegospel-centered movement of
(36:12):
young, restless and reformedcame about, and that's where you
really saw this Christ-centeredinfluence, where everything
came about the gospel, and soyou'll notice the influence
there is at the end of a message, even if it's from the song of
Solomon, I say this all is aboutJesus, um, and like we're
looking at second Corinthiansand it's about the Holy spirit,
(36:32):
and we say, like you cannotforgive people, you cannot love
people apart from receiving thelove of Jesus.
It is impossible.
And so if you haven't done that, if you have, if you do nothing
, then you do experience firstChrist, and so text Christ, you
know, text Jesus to receiveChrist.
And so that's sort of theinfluence of like always putting
(36:58):
the gospel into everything.
And then, probably the latestmovement is this post-Christian
world where we live in an upsidedown very liberal, you know,
gender is fluid.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
LGBTQ is being pushed and forced and if you're not
for that, there must besomething wrong with you to then
sort of like speaking to menand say, men, it's time for you
to lead and I think that'swhat's going to happen.
So there's a lot of there's.
Probably eventually you'll have, like you know, you become
ultra, ultra conservative andthat pushes you back to the
workspace, stuff of like I gotto earn my salvation, because
(37:30):
it's always this kindness thatleads us to repentance.
So, as I watched the church go,sort of like if the seeker
sensitive movement was sort ofliberalizing, the conservative
movement is sort of like superconservatizing, and so you're
always looking to sort ofbalance that, because you just
want to be biblical, be biblical, and although media can change
(37:50):
the principles and the gospelnever does, and so you're always
looking how can I present thegospel in a in in a way that
connects with people where theydon't feel this deep thing like
they're a failure because theydidn't live up to the whatever
standard.
They don't feel a Matthew fivethrough seven complete fail
because nobody's going to livethat out unless you have
(38:10):
complete reliance upon the HolySpirit of God.
And now you were able to liveit out.
So just sort of watching thedifferent influences of the
church and how discipleship hasbeen viewed in that, that makes
us kind of lean into Jesus,especially when you're looking
at this letter to a church thatwas so dysfunctional and yet was
experiencing all this growth,experiencing all this joy and
(38:34):
all this, um, the gifts of thespirit being very active in this
church.
It was sort of wild to see thateven they had issues with
apostle the apostle Paul, theguy that planted them they had
issues with.
So, uh, anyway, that was sortof encouraging in some ways and
then sort of frustrating that wewe'll probably never, ever get
beyond that.
Anyway, any other thoughts onthat?
That's a lot.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
I mean it's always a lot, chris, but I mean, like
that's going to be true, thisside of heaven, with anything
you know, like there's thisconstant swing, even on an
individual level, of like tryingto find the middle ground,
trying to walk the road thatjesus walked, and sometimes you
swing too far right andsometimes you swing too far left
, and it's just the nature.
(39:15):
It's the nature of being human,it's the nature of the church
being, you know, made up ofhuman beings who are sinful and
broken and living in a brokenworld.
Yeah, and so the more that wecan face that reality and accept
the truth of it, the more wecan be open to walking in the
light of Christ and being opento things like receiving the
(39:36):
Holy spirit and allowing theHoly spirit to lead us.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Yeah, and you know what else I think is, I think if
we could wrap our head aroundjust the idea that when we're
frustrated with somebody,knowing that that frustration is
for God's glory and our good,which you're just like, how's
that All things work for hisglory, for those who are called
according to his purpose andultimately our good.
(39:58):
And so I think that's the partall things work for good, for
those who are called accordingto his purpose.
And so I think what happens is,when we see friction, we don't
see.
That's probably a check on myown heart.
God's wanting to develop me aswell as do the thing at work, do
the thing in my family, do thething whatever.
He wants to grow me.
He's not going to bypass me toget to the thing that he wanted
(40:20):
to have happen.
He's going to use me, just likewith Moses.
He worked with Moses his wholeway to show his glory but
ultimately developed Moses intothe man of God he was ultimately
supposed to be.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
And I think that's how he's working on me, and I
think that's how he's working onyou, and if we can remember
that God's always doing that inand through us, we can have a
lot more grace for people,knowing that God's got it.
He's going to work on thepeople that we are in life with,
all right.
Well, hey, if you've got anyquestions, you'd love to chime
(40:51):
in on this podcast, go toPastorPleckcom or text us at
737-231-0605.
From our house to yours, havean awesome week of worship.
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