Is Being Good Enough?

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359: What does it truly mean to be saved? Is it through our good deeds, or is there something deeper at work? This question launches Pastors Chris and Holland into a profound theological exploration that spans from personal salvation to global politics. When listener Roman asks whether "good behavior is enough to save a man," the Chris & Holland dive into Ephesians 2:8-10, unpacking the beautiful paradox at Christianity's core: we are saved by grace through faith alone, yet faith that saves is never alone. Good works flow naturally from genuine salvation rather than creating it—a distinction that revolutionizes how we understand our relationship with God.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec, andjoining me in studio is none
other than pastor holland.
How are you doing?
Great thanks, chris.
You know lots of thingshappening in the world today.
I don't know if we get things Idon't know if we can get to all
of them, but we're gonna get tosome of them.
But let's just start off with,uh, an email that I have just
gotten, like literally today,moments before the show.

(00:28):
It says Pastor Chris, I amRoman, I'm 28 years old and a
new follower.
I'm concerned about salvation.
As far as I know, a man orwoman is saved by producing good
behaviors toward other peopleand spreading love to them,
stretching arms to help, andthat is what I did, because I
wanted to gain salvation fromGod.
But when I explored yourteaching online, I observed that
it was not the same as where Istand.

(00:49):
I'm confused about what thetruth is behind these many
teachings.
Was good behavior enough tosave a man?
Thanks in advance, roman.
Well, man, what a greatquestion.
What a great question.
Man, what a great question.
What a great question.
It's so good that I almostwonder that some bot write that

(01:10):
and just email in.
I don't know, but it's justamazing.
It's amazing.
I very rarely do you get aquestion that straightforward
about like I'm doing a lot ofgreat things and great works,
but I noticed on your preaching,when I listened to your
teachings, that you saysalvation is by grace, through
faith that your works can't doit.
So let's talk through that.
Holland, what do you thinkabout this question and how

(01:34):
would you respond?

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, when he says, as far as I know, a man or woman
is saved by producing goodbehaviors toward other people,
I'm really curious to know, like, where'd you hear that?
Where'd you learn that?
Is this coming from?
You know, like a Catholicupbringing?
Is this coming from just asecular?
I don't know, because I wouldsay, before I became a Christian

(01:57):
, I probably had a similar view.
I think all people probably,yeah, like do good things, get
rewarded with with eternal lifekind of makes sense in some.
You know some kind of rationalway in our heads.
Um, but uh, the fact that youknow he somehow found church, uh
, wells branch online andlistening to your teaching

(02:17):
online, and it's like man, now Iwant to know.
I'm just like this is so cool,I just think it's so cool, it's
wild.
Ephesians 2 is what comes tomind for me right away.
And then Romans the guy's nameis Roman, and just like boom,
romans Road Just did a series onthat for Easter, right, yeah.
And then, yeah, ephesians 2, 8and 9, though 8, 9 and 10,

(02:37):
honestly, for by grace, you'vebeen saved through faith and
this is not your own doing.
It is the gift of God, not aresult of works, so that no one
may boast.
And then verse 10, for we arehis workmanship, created in
Christ Jesus for good works,which God prepared beforehand
that we should walk in them.
So we're saved not by goodworks, but for good works.

(03:02):
We're saved by grace, throughfaith, but the good works come
as a result of our faith.
They're how we live out ourfaith, how we respond to God's
saving work.
So that's where I would pointRoman is Ephesians 2, 8 to 10.
Right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
So I think that's exactly—that's why I sent them.
So that worked out Boom.
And I think, if you kind ofunderstand the depths of your
sin, that faith has.
You've been gifted faith.
It's a gift of God, no one canboast.
But faith that saves is neveralone.
It then produces because you'resaved for good works that he's

(03:42):
prepared for you beforehand.
So I think that's part of it.
So I don't want to.
I think sometimes, asChristians, we can kind of like
all you gotta do, and it is true, like there's a point of
justification that happens.
But the rest of your life isaffirming that faith through
your work.
That is a result of thesalvation that you've received.

(04:02):
Yep, yeah, so you know, you, ofthe salvation that you've
received.
Yeah, yeah, so you are saved byfaith alone.
But faith that saves is neveralone.
Amen, yeah.
So, all right, let's move on toanother thought, because there's
some big things in the newsthese days.
All right, have you noticedthat Iran and Israel have been

(04:22):
in a little bit of a battle?
I have noticed.
And then the US recently bombedIran and that caused a bit of a
stir.
And then Iran retaliated withsome telegraphed missiles that
President Trump actually thankedIran for, and then he gave a

(04:45):
tongue lashing to Bibi Netanyahufor firing back after Iran
lobbed some more bombs andmissiles over to Israel.
Yeah, so where do we go withall of that?
First off, like this is likethis is made for TV, war, I mean

(05:05):
.
Do you know what I mean?
Like it's like the weirdest.
You are getting firsthand fromTrump's thumbs what he's
thinking, pretty much real time,and it's kind of I don't want
to say war is funny, but whenyou don't expect this guy to say
the stuff that he says, it'skind of shocking.

(05:27):
Yeah, would you agree?

Speaker 2 (05:28):
I mean, yeah, it's a lot of shocking, a lot of all
caps stuff being posted.
A lot of you know everything'sfine, the 12-day war is over,
Cease fire.
And then I'm declaring a peace.
Yeah, I'm declaring peace.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
And then I'm declaring a peace yeah, I'm
declaring peace and then I'mvery disappointed that they did
not agree with the ceasefire,and it is crazy to watch.
I don't want to be in real time.
I never criticize a president,even if it was Joe Biden or
Barack Obama, george W Bush, Idon't think he's wanting to
create a war.
I don't think he's wantingthings to go badly for the
United States.
I think, in the moment wherethe decision turns out to be

(06:28):
good or bad in hindsight, in themoment they're wanting to do
the right thing based upon theknowledge that they have.
And so, um and I and I I don'tthink anyone, I don't think Joe
Biden was like I'm going to makeAfghanistan the biggest snafu
ever, like that is going to besomething that mars his record.
I don't think in the moment hesaid let's pull out of

(06:49):
afghanistan, he thought it wouldturn into such a disaster,
right, um, and so, in the moment, I think he thought he was
doing the right thing.
And, you know, based on all theinformation, would I have done
a different thing?
I don't know because I'm notthere.
I think that's the struggle Ihave in a real-time war scenario
.
I I'm just hesitant tocriticize.
The nice thing with trump is itfeels like he's telegraphed

(07:14):
everything.
That's happened like he said hegave.
Like you know, two months agohe warned iran I would shut down
your nuclear program if I wereyou, and people have saber
rattled in the past.
But for him to be like that andthen 60 days happens and then

(07:35):
boom, israel starts bombing.
He's like Matt told you and hisresponse is like that.
It's like well, should havelistened.
And then, in fact, like 48hours before Israel bombed, the
US got out all of theirnon-essential personnel from the
Middle East.
They got them all out of there48 hours prior to Israel bombing

(07:55):
them.
So it's not like they didn'tknow.
Yeah, and so then they bombed.
And then, 12 days into it,trump's like I may bomb, I may
not.
Days into it, trump's like Imay bomb, I may not.
And he's like the fact that hecould just walk around with that
much I might bond them, I mightnot.
It has so much swagger to it.

(08:15):
Yeah, like say what you wantabout donald trump and his ego
and his pride and all the thingsthat you just sort of go along
with him when you can walkaround with that much swagger,
that you're just like I couldbomb him.
You're, you're, you're, you arelike setting up a fight and
you're like I could punch in theface right now, but I might not

(08:37):
.
You are, it's like being at auh, um, a bargaining table with
your colt 45, just laying on thetable, said I might shoot you
if this goes badly, or I mightnot.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, like and like.
Who does that Like?
Okay, so one is not a direct,you know kind of comparison or
something, but like I think of.
So you know, I've been readingthrough first Kings with my son.
Uh, do you remember when the twowomen come to solomon and you

(09:11):
know, with the, she stole herbaby, died and she stole my baby
, and you know whose baby is it?
And he goes bring me a sword,let's chop it in half.
You can each take home half thebaby.
And you know, you're just likethat is the most insane response
.
And but you know, and then the,the one lady is like, yeah,

(09:33):
that's fair, let's do it.
And the other lady's like, no,give her the baby.
I just, you know, and he's like,okay, that's the real mother,
right.
And you know, he didn't, he atno point was he ever really
thinking of chopping the baby inhalf.
But he just went this totalinsane route to as a
psychological kind of umexperiment, you know, to see how

(09:54):
they would respond and thenmake a discerning judgment call
after that.
And um, and everyone marveledat his wisdom and knew that it
was from God, right, and I waslike man saying cut a baby in
half with a sword led— it'spretty crazy and led people to
marvel at—but you know he hadsomething in mind.
So anyway, it's not a directcomparison obviously but—.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
So Solomon had problems with women, donald
Trump had—it's, they're the sameguy, okay.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
I'm not saying that, but I am saying you know, like
it.
Sometimes it's like man, whatyou know, whether it's stuff
with tariffs or stuff withisrael or stuff you know is like
is he just saying stuff, um,that he never intends to
actually do, to try to get acertain you know like,
absolutely I think he does thatand how does it.
It's very interesting to me.

Speaker 1 (10:40):
So when I was in, uh, in iraq.
I know this is going to soundweird, but I had this mentality.
I wanted my soldiers to think Iwas the craziest person on the
battlefield right, and thereason I wanted them to think
that I would do just aboutanything.
Because if I said, hey, let'snot do that, they'd be like oh,
let's not.
Like, oh, the commander doesn'twant to do that and he'll go.

(11:01):
He's aggressive and crazy andhe'll do whatever.
Um, so let's not do that.
So I I think there's a part ofthat where you want everyone to
sort of be on edge a little bitwhen it comes to you know,
because to try to control people, control people that sounds
like a weird way to put it, butto like control outcomes is like

(11:22):
near impossible.
Yeah, uh, you've got differentcountries with their different
sets of advisors, but when, whendonald trump is on the world
stage, he is an absolute wildcard.
You don't know which way he'sgonna go.
And when he sends bombs over toiran, they're everyone's.
Everybody was thinking he wantsworld war three, he won, and
like they believe that becausehe's led them to believe that.

(11:45):
And then all of a sudden he'syelling at BB Netanyahu like I
ordered a ceasefire, what's?

Speaker 2 (11:50):
wrong with you.
He's a child.
I just heard a tease in the.

Speaker 1 (11:53):
Wild East, wild East In the Middle East.
So I think it's sort of likethat.
He wants no one to be able topredict him, although you look
at him and it's prettypredictable.
I remember when he announcedthe tariffs, I remember saying
to my wife there's no way theseare going to last, because this
is how he gets people to thetable.

(12:14):
And sure enough, he shut thetariffs down and then
everybody's lined up at thetable and he's working deals,
and I think we have a deal withChina now.
We have a deal with GreatBritain up at the table and he's
working deals, and I think wehave a deal with China now.
We have a deal with GreatBritain.
We have a deal with all thesedifferent countries that is way
more in our favor than it wasbefore, and so that's why you
know, when he talks aboutAmerica first, that's what he's
really doing.

(12:34):
I think Tucker Carlson justwent off on Donald Trump and his
proxy, ted Cruz.
I don't know.
Did you see that?

Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yes, oh, yeah, so yeah we should get to that?

Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah, we should, because Ted Cruz God bless him
did not do dispensationalistsany favors.
I well.
It was a hard to watchinterview.
I was dying a thousand deathsas he just said what
dispensationalists believe, notexactly Okay.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
So you and I don't agree on this point At some
point.
There's things we do agree on,yeah, and you're allowed to be
wrong.
It's cool, yeah.
And so are you, and that's great, I think.
You know, when we think aboutthis situation spiritually like
two things come to mind aretheologically number one first,
timothy pray for those in highpositions.
That includes Trump, thatincludes other US leaders, that

(13:29):
includes Israel and Iran'sleaders.
Pray for those who are in highpositions.
1 Timothy 2 says that we mightlive peaceful, quiet lives.
We don't want war.
Pray, honor those who are inauthority over you, be subject
to governing authorities andhonor them.
Romans 13, 1 Peter, 3 or 4?

(13:52):
, 3.
, 3?
, yeah, 2, 3, and 4.
It's all about suffering, so,yeah, so honor, be subject to
them, pray for them.
And then also, you know,assessing these things from a
theological standpoint, there'sone aspect with the Ted Cruz
thing, you know that you broughtup where he said okay, if you

(14:17):
have the exact quote.
It was something along the linesof when I was growing up in
Sunday school, they taught methat whoever blesses Israel will
be blessed and whoever cursesIsrael will be cursed.
And I want to be on theblessing side.
It was something like that.
If not, you know verbatim.

Speaker 1 (14:38):
Let me see if I can find it.
I mean, it was with TuckerCarlson and I thought with
Tucker Carlson it would be alittle bit more of a layup.
He goes.
This is what he said.
As a Christian growing up inSunday school, I was taught from
the Bible those who blessIsrael will be blessed and those
who curse Israel will be cursed.
And from my perspective I'drather be on the blessing side
of things.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
You pretty much nailed it.

Speaker 1 (14:57):
Way to go.
And then that's when Carlsonasked him.
So you should support thegovernment, and he goes no, I
should support Israel and I,honestly, I'm in the same spot
with him.
I would use a different verse,okay, I would point to
Revelation and say is there anIsrael in the end times?
Yes, there is.

(15:17):
What verse?
Revelation 7, there's 144,000Israelites.

Speaker 2 (15:23):
That's not very many.
What's the population of Israel?
That's not very many.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
What's the population of Israel?

Speaker 2 (15:27):
You know that's a good question.
Now I feel like Tucker askingTed Cruz the population of Iran.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
The population of Israel is probably like 10
million, right, but only 144,000in Revelation.
What say you?
Well, they're the real Israel,clearly so, the real Israel.

Speaker 2 (15:44):
I nailed it.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
There's 7 million, 7.7 million, oh no, it's 10
million.
It's 10 million, all right, sothere's 10 million people there.
144,000 will be the genuine,true Israel.

Speaker 2 (15:54):
So you think that's a literal number and not a
symbolic number?
Very literal.

Speaker 1 (15:57):
Okay.
Do you think there's 12 gatesor is that symbolic of heaven?
Are there 12 cornerstones or isthat just symbolic?

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Sure 12 cornerstones, symbolic or literal either way,
in that how you interpret thoseverses right there is going to
be different than what it saysabout the salvation of a whole
nation of people.
So you're saying, though,though that it's literal um 144

(16:28):
000, and does that include um?
So are there not already 144000 jews?
Absolutely?

Speaker 1 (16:37):
but I think you know the tribulation.
It's not going to go well inold Israel.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
So what happens to the other 9.9 million?
Listen?

Speaker 1 (16:47):
they're not all Jews.
Okay, that might be theChristian ones, okay.

Speaker 2 (16:54):
So, but they are Jews , Okay Now.
So, even when, so okay, thiswhole conversation, I feel like
when the Bible refers to Israel,so like when the Bible refers
to Israel, Israel can mean anethnicity, you know it can mean
a nation, which there's overlapthere in the Bible, but not

(17:15):
necessarily today in the waythat we define nations and stuff
today.
And then there's a religion,jewish religion.
So when you, when what's hisname?
Ted Cruz says that you know,whoever blesses Israel will be
blessed, what is he talkingabout there that you agree with?

(17:36):
Are you saying the religion, no, or the nation, or the ethnic
Like?
What do you mean?

Speaker 1 (17:41):
So this is the part where I think you and I do agree
.
Okay, Like that.
The blessing of God will blessthose who bless Israel and curse
those who curse.
That promise specifically isn'treferencing for modern day
Israel.
That's referencing.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Modern day.
When you say Israel, you meanthe nation, state of Israel, the
nation state of Israel that'sactually for Christians.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
I will go there with you, 100% Okay, because Because
we are the children of Abrahamby faith.
Okay right, Galatians, Romanssay that Pretty much the whole
Bible says that, or at least theNew Testament says that, so I
am 1000% with you on that,however.
So Ted Cruz is wrong,completely wrong.
That's why it was painful towatch that, because it's like I

(18:26):
know what he's trying to say,but it's clear he hasn't
actually been to sunday schoolin a while or he hasn't studied
up on it.
Okay, I'm not gonna say he'sbeen to school, but he
definitely hasn't studied up onany of that, because that,
clearly, that would not be theverse that you would go to.
However, how about?
So?
This is the part where let'swalk through Romans 11.
Can we do that?
Yeah, I asked then?

(18:48):
has God rejected his people?
By no means, by no means, for Imyself am an Israelite, a
descendant of Abraham, a memberof the tribe of Benjamin.
God has not rejected the peoplefor whom he foreknew.
Do you not know what thescripture says to Elijah, how he
appeals to God against Israel?
Now, here's what I want us tosee.
Israel was, back then, thechosen people of God that were

(19:14):
inheriting the blessings, butthey had forsaken God.
And so, therefore, the people,the prophet, called out against
the king of Israel, king Ahab,elijah, king Ahab, the big
battle with Jezebel, right.
So this is where I think.
Sometimes we think now I'mabout to mix metaphors a little

(19:34):
bit, but to call out Israel fordoing something wrong is okay to
do.
I still think we should blessIsrael.
Well, why?
Why should we pray for?
Bless, Israel.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
Which Israel are we talking about now?

Speaker 1 (19:46):
Okay, good call.
So the nation state of Israel.
I still think we should,because I still think there is
an inheritance of some sort thatGod's going to restore to the
nation of Israel in some way,and those 144,000 of each of
those tribes.
The reason why I think it'slike an ancestral heritage,
blood thing is because it giveseach tribe that they're from.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
Is it all the tribes, though?
No, okay.

Speaker 1 (20:13):
It's not Joseph and Ephraim get, it's like a
three-parter in there, whereas Ithink Dan is left out.
And that's where.
Guess what was in Dan, thegolden calf, guess what was in
Dan.

Speaker 2 (20:23):
The golden calf, so it sounds a little symbolic to
me.
If you ask me so to answer yourquestion from earlier, I do
land on the symbolic side of it,no, no no, no, no, but it's not
symbolic, it's actualdescendants of Israel.
I think there's Okay.

Speaker 1 (20:41):
You don't think there could be actual descendants of
Israel?
Yes, I do, and there's 144,000of Israel.
Yes, I do, and there's 144,000of them that then fulfill what
God calls, because all the restof the country gets wiped out,
because it's the tribulation.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, I think it's a symbolic number.
You know the 12 times 12, andit represents believing it just
essentially represents believingJews, those who are ethnically
Jewish, who have put their faithin Christ and have been saved.

Speaker 1 (21:08):
Hold on, hold on.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
Which has nothing to do with a modern nation of
Israel.

Speaker 1 (21:15):
But it could.
But you're saying that for2000,.
You know, year 70,.
Jerusalem gets eradicated bythe Romans.

Speaker 2 (21:26):
And at that point there's no longer a nation of
Israel.

Speaker 1 (21:28):
Absolutely, absolutely.
But in 1948, somehow, israelcomes out of nowhere, out of the
Holocaust, where.
Why are all these Jews gettingpersonally attacked and
destroyed?
And they still hang around.
Do you not think there's?

Speaker 2 (21:47):
God's favor.
A little bit on that.
I think it has nothing to dowith—I think all of us exist by
God's favor.
Fair enough, every nation.
But there's not.
You can't just say it's acoincidence, but to take up the
name Israel, which, as you said,70 AD, yeah, there's the nation

(22:11):
, the temple, the wallseverything destroyed?
There's no more king on thethrone.
This is now the old covenant,fulfilled and made obsolete by
Christ.
Agreed, 100% Okay.
Now you know, with his deathand resurrection, the new
covenant is the covenant ofgrace right.

(22:35):
The new covenant is God'scovenant people.
Now that includes all those whoyou know came, who lived before
Christ but put their faith inthe coming Messiah.
Right.
That includes all those youknow even to this day who put
their faith in Jesus.
God's covenant people is thenew covenant.
Right day.

(22:56):
Who put their faith in Jesus,god's covenant people is the new
covenant.
So what that means is that Godhas no other covenant with
another nation, another people.
All of his promises that hemade to Israel are received by
those who have faith in thechosen one of Israel, jesus
Christ.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
But this is where I go, to Romans 11.
So too, at the present time,there is a remnant chosen by
grace.
Yes, and he's referring back—.

Speaker 2 (23:24):
The covenant of grace believing Jews who are
ethnically Jewish but believe inJesus.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
So that's why, I think, eventually, you're going
to have believing Jews of thenation of Israel, and so that's
why they're inextricably linkedis because they're going to be
in Israel, because they are Jews.
That's where they've beencalled back to, because the
diaspora has returned to Israel,and so therefore, I think there
is favor upon Israel as theyare in Revelation, whereas the

(23:48):
United States is not Justthrowing that out there.

Speaker 2 (23:52):
Well, I would say United States is in Revelation
in that it refers to all thenations of the world.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
Fair enough, okay, fair enough and God can come
back.
As one who believes inimminency, I believe God can
come back, or Jesus can comeback at any time, any place, any
moment.
So yes, the doctrine ofimminency would say the US could
be in there as all nations.

Speaker 2 (24:13):
Yeah, but does God?
Would you say that God has aspecial purpose for modern
Israel?
Yes, based on what?

Speaker 1 (24:22):
Based upon.
There's still a remnant basedupon Revelation 7, that God is
going to.

Speaker 2 (24:26):
I mean it's going to be, but that remnant there.
But do you?

Speaker 1 (24:28):
think it's going to be in Jerusalem when he talks
about, in Jerusalem, the twowitnesses on the street.
Is it going to be in Jerusalemwhen the temple is rebuilt?
Do you think it's going to bebuilt where the temple should be
, at the Dome of the Rock?
Oh man, come on.
What do you think?
I just want to know, allsymbolic, yes, oh Listen, ladies
and gentlemen, do not letHolland lead you astray.

(24:50):
Okay, yeah, so you think, okay,okay.
So who is from daniel, who isin, uh, the abomination of
desecration, declaring himselfto be god, in the middle of the
temple?

Speaker 2 (25:09):
this is going to be a long conversation of.
We are in very different placeshere where I believe some of
these things have alreadyhappened and taken place, so you
would go with.
That was Titus, yes.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
It's an unfortunate name for my son, but it's not
that's the bad one.
The good one is in the book ofTitus.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
That's the one he's named after, Right?
Yeah, yeah, so Titus is TitusVespian, I think, or something
like that.
Anyway, he's the one thatdestroyed Jerusalem, sacked it,
poured pig's blood all over theplace, and Rome is rule here.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
Yes, and then the destruction that was prophesied
70 AD fulfillment of that wasprophesied, you know, 70 AD
fulfillment of that, justmassive Roman.
You know, the Roman attack andsiege of Jerusalem destroying
everything.
You know, josephus I think itwas is the one who said you know

(26:11):
, millions of Jewish people diedduring that, except for those
who fleed, who were dispersed,you know.
And so a lot of the thingsJesus prophesied about coming
destruction in Jerusalem werefulfilled.

Speaker 1 (26:20):
I'm okay with it being a double fulfillment.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yeah, the final fulfillment.
You know, we're obviouslycontinuing in the end times or
the last days now, where there'spersecution from the world, and
we're awaiting the return ofJesus.
So not saying that everythinghas been fulfilled.
Obviously we're still awaitingthe return of Jesus and the
resurrection of the dead.
But this is where you and Ikind of diverge.

(26:46):
And you believe in the raptureand the literal seven years of
tribulation.
Jesus comes back, raptures, thechurch, leaves again, and then
seven years of tribulation,right.

Speaker 1 (27:03):
No, no, three and a half years of the start of the
tribulation.
I think it's great.
Then he stands in the middle ofthe declared self-begotten and
then you have the nextpersecution of the last three
and a half years.
Jesus finally comes at the endof that, yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
So to me it's not a big deal to really go at it on
end times, eschatology, stuff,but the relevant piece was like
who is Israel?
And is Ted Cruz right that wehave a biblical obligation to
support the modern nation ofIsrael based on the Bible?

(27:36):
And that's where I would go.
I say no, we have no obligationto support the modern state of
Israel.
We do have an obligation tosupport the Israel of God, the
true Israel, the house of Israel, the sons of Abraham, which is
those who believe in Jesus, andthat's not a replacement.
Some people will call it likereplacement.

(27:57):
It's.
That has always been trueIsrael.
True Israel has always beenthose who have faith in the
Messiah.

Speaker 1 (28:05):
And salvation is always by grace, through faith,
exactly From Genesis 15, wherehe looked at the stars and he
believed, and God credited tohim his righteousness.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
So God has always been faithful to his promise to
save true Israel, those whobelieve in the Messiah Jesus.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
Christ.
I don't think you and Idisagree.
I just think the weird part—andmaybe this is my nuance—I think
God brought back Israel for thepurpose of the tribulation
period and so you know, whoeverbrings peace to the world
probably be centered himself inJerusalem, declare himself to be

(28:47):
God.
All that sort of insanity, whatdo you?
So you're thinking that are wein the the tribulation already
happened or we're in it?
Are we in the tribulationalready happened or we're in it?
Are we in it, yeah, or is itjust going to get worse and
worse, or is it going to getbetter and better?
So they've already been throughthe tribulation and now we're
in the millennial kingdom andthings are getting better and

(29:08):
better until Jesus one day stepsoff the cloud onto the throne.

Speaker 2 (29:12):
Yes, so post-mill, meaning the tribulation that the
70 AD—.
Was already fulfilled and at thesame time, there is now the
living out of the last days,which is essentially the spread
of the church throughout theworld.

(29:33):
As the gospel is proclaimed toall nations, we make disciples
of all nations.
This is, you know all of thatis the kingdom of God expanding
throughout the earth, right, andtherefore the kingdom of Jesus,
you know, jesus reigning that,expanding throughout the earth

(29:55):
as we make disciples, disciplethe nations.
And so, as we do that, there ispersecution and tribulation and
trials that you face from theworld and at the same time, you
can say that it is getting worseand worse in some ways, and
that as the church spreads, thechurch is persecuted more

(30:16):
because the church is bigger andreaching more places, but also
it's getting better and better.
In the fact that the church isreaching more places, there's
more Christians now than thereever has been.
So in some sense of it, thingsare better and better.
The more disciples are made,the more churches are planted,
the more the world is reachedfor Christ.
Things are getting better.
Obviously, the church has apositive influence on the

(30:37):
culture around it as it spreads,and the church will always be,
since not every single person isgoing to be a believer, there's
always going to be those whoreject the church and persecute
the church.
So persecutions will continueuntil Jesus comes back.
Fair enough, okay, does thatmake sense?
Yeah, it does.
I know we're different on that.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
Yeah, I think the hard part for me is just like
looking at the world.
Like I'm saying, in 10 yearspeople are going to be walking
around with their robot friendsand like it's going to be a
weird world.
You heard it here first.
Folks Like Mark Zuckerberg'sstated goal is that you would
have more AI friends than realfriends.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
Right, have more ai friends than real friends, right
, and to me, like we're now, doyou think there's going to be
more christians on planet earth10 years from now than today?
Yes, okay, is that better orworse for planet earth?

Speaker 1 (31:23):
better, all right, so we're on the same page, but I
think the persecution will get.
At some point it'll get worse.
As someone, the church triumphs, no matter what right it does.
The church triumphs.

Speaker 2 (31:34):
I will build my church.
The gates of hell will notstand against it.

Speaker 1 (31:36):
Amen, but there might be a part where, when the
restrainer, holy Spirit, issucked out of the world because
all of his saints are taken out,because it's not like the Holy
Spirit is just like an energyforce roaming around, it's in
people, he's in people and so,therefore, when he raptures his

(32:00):
spirit out and the restrainer isremoved, then you're going to
have unfettered evil during thatseven-year tribulation period.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, that's where we .
I just I don't think thatthat's going to happen.

Speaker 1 (32:05):
The rapture you know we're going to be preaching
through 2 Thessalonians verysoon.
Love that, and we will, maybenot this next year, because it
doesn't really fit with thedirection I'm going with.
Worship, personal worship, butmaybe it does, Maybe it's
missional worship.
There you go.
So therefore you need to prayfor everyone to get raptured.
Okay.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
So it's clear.
If anyone's like, what do youmean?
It says in Thessalonians thatit says that Jesus will return
and meet everybody in the airand we will meet him in the air.
And so dispensationalists takethat to mean that we will get
raptured, raptured, zapped upinto heaven Out of the earth,

(32:46):
uh-huh, to avoid the sufferingof the tribulation.
Right, because double jeopardyJesus already paid for my sin.
Boom.

Speaker 1 (32:54):
That doesn't mean that you never experienced
suffering though, but it doesmean you don't experience God's
wrath, and God's wrath wascoming on the earth right
through all the differenttribulations that God unleashed
from hell.
So therefore, you don't getdouble jeopardy.
Jesus already paid it.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
Paid it all.
God's wrath can come and bringsuffering to those who are under
his judgment and collaterallysuffering to those who are under
his grace, and yet experiencethat suffering in a way that
refines their faith.
But it's not Judgment can havea dual purpose in unbelievers
and believers' lives.

Speaker 1 (33:24):
Right, but with it would be God's wrath direct,
like if they were experiencingon the receiving end of God's
wrath.
Then what did Jesus die on thecross for?
He took on the wrath of God.
That's why I think thosebelievers are still.
They won't experience God'swrath in that way.

Speaker 2 (33:39):
It's kind of two different senses of God's wrath,
though Temporally in thephysical world, versus eternally
His condemnation in hell.
Sure, I'm not—, Jesus saves usfrom God's condemnation in hell
and eternal torment, and yet westill experience temporal
physical suffering in this world.

Speaker 1 (33:59):
But that's our own fault.
This is where.

Speaker 2 (34:02):
Not necessarily.
Job experienced it when itwasn't of any fault of his.
He wasn't.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
Okay, God did say he was innocent.
However, he didn't have Jesusdie on the cross for him yet.
And in Job he does point tosomeone dying in our place as a
substitute.
Okay, well, I didn't even getto get—.
Hold on, real quick, real quick, All right, all right, Whoa
whoa, whoa, Real quick.

Speaker 2 (34:22):
The non-dispensational view of
meeting Jesus in the air is thatwe just like when you know
someone comes in the door andyou go, oh, and you go and meet
them at the door and you welcomethem into your house.
Yeah, the same idea Jesus usedin the parable.
When the groom arrives, youknow, and they go and meet him

(34:43):
there and escort him in for thewedding ceremony.
Yeah, that's what we think ishappening we meet Jesus in the
air and welcome him down for thefinal judgment.
Okay.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
So I like that, but what do you think?

Speaker 2 (34:56):
it means, that's the other view.

Speaker 1 (34:57):
The for the mystery of lawlessness is already at
work.
Only he who now restrains itwill do so until he is out of
the way.
That's why I'm like that is thepart of the Holy Spirit has to
be out of the way forunrestrained evil to take over
the earth and there will be aday when there aren't any

(35:20):
Christians on the planet andthen they will come to faith
through, probably, the Listen toPastor Plex podcast with Alan
Gregg.
Let's be sitting there going.

Speaker 2 (35:28):
What do we do?

Speaker 1 (35:29):
Whoa, what must I do to be saved?
And then bam hey, maybe, maybe.
Hey, can I say this one thing?
I'm going to go off thedispensational rails for a
second, but Trump said somethingthat I thought was interesting.
Did you hear him at the pressconference?
I love you God, we love you God.
It was very personal.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
And God bless Israel, god bless Iran, god bless
America.
We love you, god.
That was interesting.

Speaker 1 (35:52):
Yeah, did you think that that was?
What was that?
I don't know, I don't know.
He wants God to bless everybody,I agree, but like we love you
God, that is a very.
That was an unscripted thatcame from the heart, so I don't
know if I'm saying he's aChristian or not, but man, that
was like that's what that's theway, like you know, know, your

(36:19):
kid talks when in you know, likein their prayers, yeah, and I
felt like that was verychildlike faith, which I thought
was really good of him to kindof go in that direction so I
don't know if that's the saythat says anything about
salvation, but I did appreciatethe we love you, god.
I think he was talking to god inthat moment, man, I hope so.

Speaker 2 (36:34):
I mean, yeah, I think only God knows his heart, yeah,
for sure.
But yeah, I would—so my view,you know, as a post-millennial I
expect the Great Commission tobe fulfilled, yeah, and that we
make disciples of all nations.
And that part of that is we seemany national leaders come to

(36:55):
faith in Christ and see many,many Christian nations
throughout the world givingfavor to the church.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
I also believe that all nations will receive Christ.
Okay, yeah, I think we're onthe same page, like that's Bible
.
You can't deny that All right.

Speaker 2 (37:11):
I mean, is that the classic dispensational view?

Speaker 1 (37:14):
Yeah, because at any moment all nations could believe
Okay, through one, like youknow, he can make anyone's heart
change in any given moment.
Boom, boom, boom boom.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
So this is a for the listeners who are like oh no,
chris and Holland don't agree.
We would categorize this as atertiary.

Speaker 1 (37:33):
Tertiary.
This is what you're supposed todebate about.
This is what, if you were inEngland, you'd be at the pub,
and this is the stuff you debateno-transcript.

(38:01):
Like sometimes you know I'll behonest.
Like do I always agree with myown view?
Probably not Just because I'mlike Holland has some good
arguments and sometimes whereI'm just like I haven't thought
about it that way.

Speaker 2 (38:21):
I feel like there's a hole in every eschatology, or
else there would just be oneeschatology.
Anyway, that's good.
I bring that up to say.
You know, when it comes to thetertiary things that are not
essential for salvation or evenessential for church unity, like
, debate them and challenge eachother and grow and don't feel
like you have to lock intosomething and never change.
So like, my view on eschatologyis different now than it was 10
years ago and I'm always tryingto learn and study.
10 years ago, whatever you toldme to be then I started, you

(38:44):
know, like, discerning foryourself, yeah, reading the
bible and stuff like that.
All right, how about?

Speaker 1 (38:48):
this.
How about this?
Let's go to an issue that wehave.
Holland has been, uh.
Let's go to an issue that wehave.
Holland has been, uh, I sayquiet, because usually Holland
is a social media gangster, um,but recently I've been engaging
in some conversations with somepeople online.
Okay and uh, there, this iswhere I'm now we're taking away

(39:12):
left turn, but I do think it'simportant to talk about, like
this is where, on some issuesthat we do agree on is like the
sanctity of marriage,traditional roles for men and
women.
That is not just a you'retrying to keep the man or the
woman in this case down.
This is actually God's design,god's order and for our good,
and that doesn't save you livingtraditional man woman roles,

(39:36):
but it is something we shouldconform to after we have been
saved.
Would that be a good way to putthat?
Amen, yeah.
And so I think one of the thingsthat I've noticed is, I think,
conservative Christians who, inthe past, I would be one of
these who would say I'm notgoing to be a keyboard warrior,
I'm not going to engage whenpeople say stuff that I

(39:56):
completely disagree with, butnow I feel like if I don't say
something and I think you wouldagree with this.
If I don't say something, thenwho is?
If all you hear is your echochamber, and especially as
people deconstruct their faithand sort of walk away and then
we just sit there and go allright, see ya, I think to me

(40:20):
there's a part of us that'srequired to kind of lean into
that stuff, especially ifthey're making a case for why
homosexuality or whynontraditional marriage is okay.
I think that's for me somethingvery important for us to sort
of lean into as something we doagree on as a primary doctrine

(40:41):
and a secondary doctrine.
Wouldn't you agree?

Speaker 2 (40:43):
Yeah, what's the question?
Should we engage online aboutthat stuff?

Speaker 1 (40:49):
And how much should we?
Because we're arguing for funhere.
But what about issues thatmatter, like, how much should we
engage that, especially withthe, the divisiveness,
polarization of things?
What matters?

Speaker 2 (41:08):
so I think number one , most of your engagement and
you know the way that you liveyour life and conduct your
ministry and study theologyshould be in person, in real
life, in a real community, whereyou actually have legitimate
community with people.
But online is an area whereexchange of ideas and it's kind

(41:33):
of like a public, a publicsquare in a sense, where, um,
people make truth claims, right,and what's interesting about it
is like a place, like you know,if you look at, like Facebook
or X, right, facebook was reallycame around, you know, to help
college students meet and sharepictures and, um, you know, get

(41:55):
to know people on your campus,eventually involved, if evolved
into, you know, a place to sharephotos and connect socially,
social media connection, um, andso it's a place where, um, you
know, you, I want to see mycousin's baby and how are they
doing?
You know, see pictures of myfriend's trip to, whatever,

(42:18):
right, egypt, and you know, like, cool stuff like that.
But then you have, you know, x,which was, you know, formerly
Twitter, that used to just kindof posting short things, news
ideas.
It was punchy short, you know,not long posts, not, uh, not as
visual like Instagram, just moreabout like uh, words, and so X

(42:40):
tends to be a much more kind oflike volatile place.
I think it is.
It is more less about like hey,look at these cute pictures of
me and my family and more aboutthe um, uh, debating ideas and
stuff like that.
But it very much happens onFacebook and I think on Facebook
it tends to be taken way morepersonally because it's supposed

(43:01):
to be this more kind ofpersonal social place, and so
even just thinking about thatgoing where do you engage, stuff
I post on X is not necessarilythe same stuff that I'll post on
Facebook, where you know I'llpost.
If I'm going to post picturesabout, you know, my kids drawing

(43:22):
that they drew me for father'sday, you know I maybe I'll post
that on X, but more that's moreof a Facebook thing.
Um, if I'm going to, you knowlike, have a six part article on
this very you know umcontroversial theological thing
where I want to debate withpeople, I'm probably not going
to do that on Facebook with myyou know the people who just
want to see pictures that mykids drew me, um, but from time
to time someone else will postsomething on Facebook and I

(43:47):
think it's a.
As a pastor, you're a, you're aguardian of, of doctrine Um, and
you, you're responsible foryour flock, and so you can't be
responsible for everyone, butwhen you know that people in
your church are seeing certainthings online.
You want to protect them fromsomething that might harm their
soul, and so I think there is awise and good way to engage

(44:15):
online, not even necessarily ifthe person that you're debating
is going to listen, but for thepeople who are watching to hear.
Are they right?
You know, how do you respond tothat?
What's a Christian, biblicalresponse to this thing?
That seems wrong in one way but, you know, is very popular, or
maybe kind of seems right orcompassionate in another way.

(44:36):
How do I respond to this?
I think a pastor, you know, canweigh in on those things wisely
with you know, patience.
Second, Timothy, you know,speaks to this, as you know, to
be respectful with youropponents, to be gentle, saying

(44:57):
perhaps God may grant themrepentance, right, and at the
same time, if it's someone who'sclaiming to be a teacher,
though now there's Jesus andJohn the Baptist, Paul when it
came to addressing teachers,they were very sharp.
They were not gentle withwolves, they were not gentle

(45:20):
with people who were in aposition of teaching.
So I think, depending on whoyou're talking to and what the
subject matter is, it takes alot of wisdom to know.
Is this a time to be gentle andsoftly redirect.
Is this a time to draw a hardline and say, hey, no, if you're
leading people astray, youcannot, you know, go that
direction?

Speaker 1 (45:39):
So I think it takes a lot of wisdom, right, I just
think look back to is there ahistory for this public debates?
Clearly there is.
Yeah, you know Agrippa and Paulwhenever he was in prison and
he said will you persuade me?
In this short a time Did I toobecome a Christian?
That was a public debate.
I don't know if Paul thought hewas going to convert him, but

(46:00):
there's a lot of people watching.
He wanted to yeah sure, and Imean I don't think you engage it
without that.
But I think the greater scopeof that is he is presenting the
idea so that the public squarewere here or in, um, uh, act 17,
with uh in athens or uh, I justthink, even beyond, uh, well,

(46:21):
even even jude, of like, hey,there's false teachers out there
and you've got to stop.
Contend for the faith, yeah,and for the faith there's.
There's got to be a can, acontending for the faith, not so
that, um, it's so that peopledon't get led astray.
I think, as I was thinkingabout you know, you talked this
morning in our men's group aboutProverbs 7, about how men are

(46:41):
led astray by a woman.
But men can be led astray by anidea that sounds really good,
sounds like there's going to belife, but it actually leads to
death.
I just also think about, likeyou know, in the early days of
the Christian church.
I think of Justin Martyr.
Just one guy pops up the publicdebates.
You know he would write againstheresies, against Crescens.

(47:02):
Is that Martyr or Irenaeus?
Yeah, but I think he wrote yeah,maybe one of the guys, but I
know that Martyr did a bunch ofdebates with Crescens the cynic
philosopher, and and that endedup getting him killed because
Crescens got jealous of JustinMartyr's debate skills and then

(47:26):
had him killed.

Speaker 2 (47:27):
Yeah, against heresies was Irenaeus, but yes,
both of those examples aresaying they didn't have social
media back then.

Speaker 1 (47:34):
What was the public?

Speaker 2 (47:35):
swear.
That was their social media waswriting these letters, writing
these books.
You think of Martin Luther andthe 95 theses.
You know the reformation ofthat was going public, right?
So that was the social media ofthe day.
Before you doom scrolled, youwent to the public square and
just listened, yeah and uh.
You know these were guys.
You know writing things againsther.
They had councils that convenedwhere they would say, hey, this

(47:57):
teacher is a false teacher, he'sa heretic.
If he doesn't repent, you know,we're putting him out of the
church and doctrine and theologyPaul told Timothy you know,
guard your teaching and guardyour life.
Watch your life, your soul, youknow the way that you live and
watch your teaching, and thosethings go hand in hand.

(48:19):
Your teaching will influenceyour life and lead your life,
whether for better or for worse.
So it's an important thing andI think sometimes people think,
oh, to be a Christian or to be apastor.
You just, you know there's noroom for confronting people
about things when in reality,I'm just like what Bible are you
reading, right?
What Jesus are you following,if not a Jesus who confronted

(48:42):
the Pharisees left and right and, you know, left them confounded
at his with his rebukes, andsome repented and some repented.
Nicodemus was a Pharisee.
You have the apostle Paul, youPaul.
You have Jewish leaders who didturn.
You have and in the future,there'll be 144,000 of them

(49:04):
there you go If there's notalready.
You have not only them turning,though, but you have Jesus
rebuking the Pharisees for theirfalse doctrine or their
hypocrisy.
But then you have the onlookerswho see it and go.
Man, he teaches with authority,and they could see there was

(49:28):
something different about Jesus.
So, even if he didn't convertthe people he confronted, people
who were witnessing it got tosee I'm going to follow Jesus
instead of the Pharisees.
So that's were witnessing itgot to see I'm going to follow
Jesus instead of the Pharisees.
So that's part of it on socialmedia, too, is you might be
debating with someone aboutsomething and you don't want to
do it all the time.
You got to choose your battles,but when it's wise, when it's

(49:50):
prudential, you might notconvert the person that you are
debating, but you might help theother people who are watching
know how to biblically handlethis.

Speaker 1 (49:59):
And that's why you want to be gentle, yes,
respectful, because if you'renot, you come off with the anti
God like you'd be, like okay,that's exactly what I knew you
would do you.
You fall right into the trap ofum someone that's that they're
hoping you would kind of go thatway, and then they don't say
anything.
They've won the argument.

Speaker 2 (50:20):
Avoid ad hominem things just attacking the person
, attacking them, trying to mockthem with petty insults, stuff
that's just like teenage boypetty stuff, obviously.
Don't do that.
But that doesn't mean thatthere's no room for being firm
and direct and saying, hey, thisis not.

(50:41):
You've stepped outside of thebounds of the faith If you go
this direction.
What you've said is you know,it's heretical, it's a false
teaching, you need to repent, um, and you can say that with,
with, uh, firmness and with loveand compassion.

Speaker 1 (50:54):
Yeah, I almost feel like in my head I need to have
four layers of doctrine.
I know this, I've been thinkinga lot about this lately, so
this might come out weirdbecause I've been thinking about
it and haven't actuallyprocessed it.
So hang with me.
Primary doctrine, which wouldbe like salvation by grace,
through faith Jesus is the onlyway Bible is infallible.
That kind of stuff.
Secondary doctrines the onlyway Bible is infallible, that

(51:17):
kind of stuff.
Secondary doctrines,distinctives for our church,
Like we believe in male elders,male pastors, male leadership,
headship in the home, headshipin the home, okay.
Then tertiary issues, likeeschatology, homeschool or
public school, like what are thethings that we can debate about
it?
Those are, and it's okay todebate and it's okay to question
it.
And then quaternary issues,which I feel like would be like

(51:39):
uh, of of, like changing thedefinition of sin, so say, like
homosexuality is um affirmed bygod, like I think that's
something, that that's somethingto be actively against, because
getting at the very core of ofthe image of God.
Did you say quadrenary?

Speaker 2 (51:55):
Quadrenary, the fourth, that's the word for that
.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
I'm going to take your word for it.
I don't know, but it's so.
Okay, my question, though, islike primary, secondary,
tertiary, each one is going downin priority, right, but then
when you get to this quadrenary,it sounds like Quadrenary,
right, but then when you get tothis quad quadrenary, it sounds
like you're quadrenary Nice.
All right, you got it.
Uh, it might be quaternary,quaternary, quaternary,

(52:22):
quaternary but it sounds like Imean, when you're saying
changing the definition of sin,I go.
Well, that's a pretty big deal.

Speaker 1 (52:29):
It goes right back up to the first one, right?
Is that what?

Speaker 2 (52:33):
you're saying yeah, like to me, I would go if you're
changing, if it's, if it'ssomething that is definitionally
sin, that's kind of likeprimary, that's not even.
That's not even what.

Speaker 1 (52:44):
I guess, what am I against?
I don't.
I think a lot.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
So another category for like things that should be
actively opposed.
There you go.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
Okay, that might be like actively oppose quaternary,
actively opposed.
There you go, okay, thank you.
That might be like activelyoppose um quaternary issues
which are the things that affectthe primary issues.
Probably a bit and that mightbe, you know, over the top, but
I think the the homosexualitystuff is something I want to be.
I can't like I'm not infellowship with churches that

(53:13):
are gay affirming.

Speaker 2 (53:15):
Yeah, yeah, saying.
I see what you mean.

Speaker 1 (53:18):
Um, is that?
That might be something I'vejust been processing and I need
to kind of really process itmore, but I think that's where I
go to.
There's a concern I have thatwe're we can be so nice that
we're like no, that is actively,you are harming people.
Yeah, um, actively, you areharming people.

Speaker 2 (53:38):
Yeah, it's interesting because typically,
like the primary category, theprimary bucket was like
Apostles' Creed type stuff.

Speaker 1 (53:44):
But quaternary people affirm the Apostles' Creed, but
then still do that.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
Yeah, because in the early days of Christianity the
theological crises were doctrineof God, doctrine of Christ,
very spiritual things of the twonatures of Christ, and does he
have one will or two wills?
And does God you know that kindof stuff of really sorting out

(54:13):
Christology and Trinitariantheology.
That kind of stuff of reallysorting out Christology and
Trinitarian theology, thetheological crises of today, a
lot of people one don't know orcare about some of those types
of things.
I think they're anthropologicalas opposed to— Very much
Anthropological more about whowe are, what it means to be male
and female.
What marriage is what?

(54:34):
Um, uh, uh, yeah, what, what itlooks like to lead your home,
to lead a church, to lead anation very like earthy um
things as opposed to heavenly,spiritual things,
pneumatological orChristological, yeah, um, and so
that's uh, that's reallyinteresting because you don't
have councils and creeds thatreally address a lot of those

(54:56):
things.
There were early councils thataddressed things like women
preaching and pastoring, butthey didn't receive nearly as
much attention.
It was kind of like that wasn'treally a cultural battle back
then, whereas today it's like itis the battlefield.
A cultural battle back then,whereas today it's like it is

(55:17):
the battlefield.
What does it mean to be male andfemale?
Who you know?
Um, yeah, marriage, sex, um,leadership of home, church and
nation all of that stuff Um,things that people used to know
intuitively, things thatessentially basically, um, go
with the grain of nature, morenatural things, um, uh.
We live in a world today thatessentially rejects nature and

(55:37):
nature's God, um, and wants togo in the other direction.
All the Genesis one and two,stuff of like be fruitful and
multiply, um, you know.
Uh, god created us male andfemale.
Um, we're like questioning andrejecting all that stuff today
as opposed to like.
Um, does God have you know?
As opposed to like.
Does God have you knowquestions about like the persons

(55:59):
or essence of God, so that it'slike we kind of need a new
creed, a new yeah, you know youhave like the Nicene Creed, the
Apostles Creed.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
It's kind of like you need a new creed for today that
affirms God's teaching aboutgender and sexuality and
marriage and headship, and Ithink there's been several
attempts at that right.

Speaker 2 (56:23):
Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.
You know they created theDanvers statement back in 87, 88
that essentially attempted todo that.
It's not necessarily like.
It was rejected by a lot ofpeople who were egalitarians and
feminists and disagreed with it.
You know, and they also cameout with one I think it's the
Nashville Statement that has todo more with homosexuality,

(56:46):
transgenderism.
So you have, that's like, youknow, an organization that's
trying to do that, but it's notnecessarily like widely adopted
Right and I think that's what'shard, because this is what
stinks about not being part ofthe Catholic Church anymore.

Speaker 1 (57:01):
It's like you couldn't have a doctrine that
hit all across the globe, butthat was for the right reasons,
yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
It's unfortunate.

Speaker 1 (57:12):
Church is hard.
Yeah, church is hard.
It's wild how difficult churchhas been for thousands and
thousands of years, yet it keepsgrowing.
It keeps growing and it keepsmoving, that even when there's
sharp disagreements betweenBarnabas and Saul, the church
still expands and that'sunfortunate, but I think it's
part of God's plan to reach theworld.

(57:34):
Although I don't think he's Idon't know if the right word is,
I don't think he's honored bythose breakups, but I do think
he allows them for his glory,yeah he works them for good.

Speaker 2 (57:46):
Yeah, aiming for unity, which is why what's tough
?
People say, like man, doctrinedivides, and so let's just kind
of relax the doctrine a littlebit so that we can all be
together.
But it doesn't work.
Um, doctrine does divide, andit's meant to divide truth from
error.
Um, for the good of the church,um, but what happens is, you

(58:08):
know, um, you do get some ofthese splits and factions and
schisms and things that are likeman it's not what you want.
You want everyone to be one, butat the same time, you can't
compromise on truth, and so yeahit's worth fighting for and
worth praying for, though it isdefinitely worth it.

Speaker 1 (58:27):
Hey, if you've got any questions, you can text us
in at 737-231-0605.
We would love to hear from you.
We do faith, culture andeverything in between.
Pastor Hall and I love to talkabout this stuff and we'd love
to talk about your stuff, sosend in those questions from our
house to yours.
Have an awesome week of worship.