October 27, 2025 • 45 mins
Have a question or comment for Pastor Plek or one of his guests. Send it here.
371: A throwaway line about “mutual submission” sparked a storm—and a much-needed deep dive. We open the Bible, sit with the tension, and then walk into the real-life mess of engagement, decision-making, and what loving leadership actually looks like when two strong people share a future. No formulas, no clichés, just a honest look at Ephesians 5 and how it plays out when feelings are high and stakes are higher.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:05):
And welcome back to Pastor Plex Podcast.
I'm your host, Pastor Plex,along with none other than
Nicole SuperTrooper Troop.
And welcome back to the show.
Thank you.
It's been a while.
So we have a question thatsparked a lot of conversation in
and amongst the staff here.
And it is this from a listener.
And thank you for sending in.
This is from a post from a guynamed John Moody, not the
(00:28):
question asker, but the uhinfluencer.
He says, Hey, if brothers, if awoman uses the phrase mutual
submission when talking aboutmarriage, you're about to be in
for a lifetime of sorrow andsuffering.
Run like your life depended onit because it does.
Would enjoy both of youunpacking this thought and
whether you agree or disagreeand why.
SPEAKER_00 (00:51):
Well, I'll just be straight up.
I think that he's being reallydramatic.
All right, all right.
So you don't think you're gonnadie?
No, I don't think you're gonnadie.
I don't think that just becausea woman says that, that you're
in for a life of suffering andregret.
Um you might be in for sufferingand regret anyway, but that
(01:12):
might not be the problem.
SPEAKER_02 (01:14):
Yeah, yeah.
So let's get in.
I think the text is reallycomplicated.
I think this is where it'simportant to know what text this
guy is talking about.
Uh so look carefully then howyou walk, not as unwise, but as
wise, making the best use of thetime because the days are evil.
This is Ephesians 5.
Therefore, do not be foolish,but understand what the will of
the Lord is, and do not getdrunk with wine, for it is
(01:35):
debauchery.
But but be filled with theSpirit, addressing one another
in psalms and hymns andspiritual songs, singing and
making melody to the Lord withyour heart.
Give you thanks always and foreverything to God the Father, in
the name of our Lord JesusChrist, submitting to one
another out of reverence forChrist.
Wives, submit to your ownhusbands, as to the Lord, for
(01:56):
the husband is the head of thewife, even as Christ the head of
the church, its body, and ishimself its savior.
Now, as the church submits toChrist, so also wives should
submit in everything to theirhusbands.
Husbands, love your wives, asChrist loved the church and gave
himself up for her, that hemight sanctify her, having
cleansed her by the washing ofwater with the word, so that he
might present the church tohimself in splendor, without
(02:17):
spot or a wrinkle or any suchthing, that she might be holy
and without blemish.
In the same way husbands shouldlove their wives as their own
bodies, he who loves his wifeloves himself.
No one ever hated his own flesh,but nourishes and cherishes it
just as the church Christ doesthe church, because we are
members of his body.
Therefore, a man shall leave hisfather and mother hold fast to
his wife, and the two shallbecome one flesh.
(02:38):
This mystery is profound, andI'm saying that it refers to
Christ in the church.
However, let each one of youlove his wife as himself, let
the wife see that she respectsher husband.
Okay.
That's the backdrop of wherethis verse is coming from.
Yeah.
And usually why people say thatuh submit to one another out of
reverence for Christ, um,because that's where the word
hopotasso comes.
(02:59):
And then it says in the nextverse, wives to your own
husbands.
It doesn't actually say the wordsubmit isn't in there, it's just
borrowing from the word.
SPEAKER_00 (03:07):
It's this idea, like hey, also.
SPEAKER_02 (03:09):
Yeah, so submitting to one another out of reverence
for Christ.
Uh, so how do you submit as awife?
You submit to your husband.
How do you submit to your wifeout of reverence for Christ?
You lead her, but then that youdon't submit to her.
It's it's weird because youdon't really submit to her,
right?
I I do think there is somethingto um a sense of looking out
(03:33):
after her needs.
Yeah.
You can't have mutual submissionin the sense where um where it's
a husband and a wife because oneinevitably is gonna be the
leader.
But if I think what this issaying is like he's going to the
church, here's what the will ofthe Lord is.
(03:54):
Hey, as a church, you guys needto submit to one another, men,
and then now, hey, wives, submitto your husbands.
And then he kind of explainswhat that looks like.
And then husbands, love yourwives.
So I I don't think this is amutual submission because mutual
submission, it looks like this,which is really sweet.
No, you go first.
No, you go first, no, you gofirst, no, you go first.
SPEAKER_00 (04:13):
Well, and like, can we talk about the word
submission also?
Yeah, because that isunfortunately an ugly word.
Why is it an ugly word?
And um, I don't agree that itshould be an ugly word.
I think it's actually it'sgotten a bad rap.
It does, it has a bad rap.
SPEAKER_02 (04:30):
Yeah.
Where how could where is it seenas a um New Age feminism, man?
SPEAKER_00 (04:36):
Like it's broken us down, like it just has screwed
some things up.
I don't know why people likeit's like submission is equated
to like subservience and likeoppression, right?
And they're not the same thing.
SPEAKER_02 (04:52):
So it doesn't say husbands oppress your wives.
SPEAKER_00 (04:55):
That's a different word.
SPEAKER_02 (04:57):
Husbands smash the woman down as crush her and
that's not what it's rule herwith an iron fist.
Yeah, no, it says love her,sacrifice for her.
As Christ loved the church.
Right.
And so I think what happens is Ithink we've we've we so far and
I guess somewhere in the past,and listen, I we've done a good
job maybe correcting, and thenwe overcorrected with with men
(05:18):
like love loving their wives.
Um, and so what's happened inour culture, like this is just
just uh uh an observation.
We have men abdicating theirrole as a protector, you know,
like it used to be like a womanwould find safety in the arms of
her husband, like he wouldprotect her, he would make sure
(05:40):
they're gonna be okayfinancially, physically, and now
it's like every man for himself.
I think just culturally.
So there's this the I guess thefour P is protection, uh,
there's pursuit.
Like it's uh tough for menbecause if they pursue their
wives uh intimately, it can beseen as like I don't want to say
(06:01):
harassment, I don't go that far,but it can be like men have been
so um passive, yeah, uh thatthey have kind of left the
pursuit to their wife becausehey, we're all equal here.
Uh so you got protection, uh,you got pursuit, you got
provision.
And with the advent of thestay-at-home dad, uh, we have a
(06:23):
lot of men saying, like, listen,I I I will just be at home with
the children, and you go uh towork and you manage all of our
financial situation, and I willbe a kept man, so to speak,
yeah, and take care of thechildren.
And then and I and I feel likethat's unhealthy in the sense I
(06:46):
haven't seen it work out wellfor man.
SPEAKER_01 (06:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:49):
Like inevitably that a guy is gonna feel purposeless,
uh-huh.
Um, and then the woman ends updoing both things, taking care
of the children and workingreally hard and providing, and
the guy just is like just there.
SPEAKER_01 (07:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:06):
Uh and then um preside.
Fourth P preside.
Ooh, that's a fancy word.
Rule over the family.
Okay.
Like, so what happens is whenyou don't rule over the family,
someone does.
Either it's the culture, uh, itcould be the wife who then takes
into a role of control and shetreats her husband like another
(07:27):
one of the children.
And I think maybe over the pastseveral years, we've sort of
done a a weird thing, and maybejokingly at first, but then
ultimately I think it became areal thing.
I gotta go ask the boss first.
And so, what's that?
You know, that's like the theboss being the wife.
In fact, in in the military, um,we had a nickname for uh wives,
(07:49):
and that was household six,which the six element in the
army was the command element.
And so that's who runs my house.
I run at the job, but when weget down to home, she's in
charge there.
And I always was like that, sortof, and I know it was being
funny, but then what happened,words matter, is that over time
people started to believe thatthe woman was ahead of the home,
(08:12):
and that brought struggle, Ithink, for our culture that has
men genuinely going passiverelationally with their wives
anyway.
I don't know.
I know that's a lot to unpackright there.
It is and I fire hosed you, butanything on all those thoughts
that I just came out with?
SPEAKER_00 (08:28):
I do have some questions.
Um, so I guess the first thingis is like so you said like the
wife becoming the the boss, andI have to like go ask my boss.
Right, yeah.
So is is the ideal that theroles are flipped?
Is the man now the boss and likesuddenly the wife has to go and
(08:51):
ask permission?
SPEAKER_02 (08:52):
So yeah, so the way that I would look at it is it
depends, right?
Yeah, there are some things thatlike as a husband, you could
delegate the role of theauthority over to your wife,
which would be like so forexample, there are different
roles in a home, and and itdoesn't matter necessarily who
do them, what does who doesthem, who does them, but what
does matter is that theauthority of the husband is not,
(09:15):
I don't want to say question,that's a but it he is the one
that's supposed to be presidingover the family.
So, you know, he might be abetter cook, and so he's like,
hey, I'm gonna make the food.
Not because I don't think yourcookie is awesome.
Like, why put her in a rolewhere she's not gifted, she's
not great, and everyone suffers,right?
(09:36):
Like that might be that's a butthat's a decision that that
husband would make ultimately.
Now, I this is where if you loveyour wife, you're gonna hear her
needs.
SPEAKER_01 (09:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:47):
Like, and that's a part where I feel like what's
happened culturally is womendon't express needs because it
makes them look weak.
And when you look weak, then youjust get run over.
Yeah, as opposed to I express myneeds, and then my husband, who
is the fixer or loves to goesinto solution mode and solves
the problem.
Um, but the problem is we'rewe're present.
(10:08):
What usually happens with women,and I and I I know you'll be an
exception to this, is what womenstart doing is they start
telling their husbands what theyneed to be doing.
And and that's usually aresponse because they're afraid
of something.
Um so like the women are afraidof them.
The women are afraid, like, hey,I want my husband to be home
(10:29):
with the kids.
And so instead of saying, like,I need you home with the kids
because I'm exhausted andfrazzled by the end of the day,
and I need you to take over andlead our family, instead of
saying that, they say, You needto be home by four o'clock
because I'm having dinner, oryou need to get home by 5 30, or
you need to because I havedinner out, and if you're not,
it's gonna get cold, and likethat's blah, blah, blah.
And it's puts her in anauthoritative role, which is not
(10:52):
the design.
And then so the guy's like, Idon't want to create a fight,
and I don't, and then it putshim in a position where it might
be the wise thing for him tostay late at work for whatever
reason.
It might be, but then now he hasto go answer to the boss as
opposed to now.
Granted, do men stink at tellingtheir wives what time they're
coming home?
Absolutely.
I'm not gonna.
So that's why the height ofcommunication has to happen.
(11:15):
That's that's where it's like ahusband can love his wife really
well by sacrificially tellingher, Hey, I will be home later
this evening.
I'm so sorry for that.
But then she needs to be able tosay, I have a need for
companionship, I have a need foryour presence, I have a need for
your parenting.
And and that's the type ofconversation that needs to be
having.
And then that puts him in aplace to fix the problem as the
(11:36):
leader, as opposed to having hishaving his having his leadership
cut off.
Oh good job.
Good words.
Uh yeah.
Uh does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00 (11:47):
Yeah, that yeah, that does make sense.
I I think uh like the challengethat I have.
SPEAKER_02 (11:52):
As you are engaged.
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
I am, I am engaged.
Congratulations, thank you.
Um, for anyone who didn'talready know that, uh Nicole's
engaged.
I'm engaged.
That happened in August.
SPEAKER_02 (12:02):
It's Nick and Nicole.
How fun is that?
SPEAKER_00 (12:04):
In Squared.
Oh, N Squared.
That's what people, some peoplehave said.
I think that let's go with that.
Yeah, probably.
Um so yes, we're engaged.
Um, and so I am grapplingalready with feeling like a loss
of independence, a loss ofagency.
SPEAKER_02 (12:23):
And not and like you kind of have a more um stronger
feminine approach.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
I do.
I do.
Man, what great words.
SPEAKER_02 (12:33):
Well, and and listen, I yeah, you know, um I
can empathize with that.
SPEAKER_00 (12:38):
So it's well, also it's like it's hard for for me
just because of my personality.
Like you said, I'm a little bitstronger of a personality.
Um, I'm 30, I've been single mywhole life, I've never been in a
serious relationship like this.
SPEAKER_02 (12:51):
Hold on.
So, like, whoa, whoa, whoa, thisis like newsflash.
You mean you can get to 30without a serious relationship
in middle school, high school,college pro post-college, and
now all of a sudden you'regetting married and you've never
been in a relationship.
SPEAKER_00 (13:02):
Yeah.
Isn't that wild?
SPEAKER_02 (13:04):
That is amazing.
I mean, I know that sounds likeuh like I don't know how you
feel about it, but I think it'sgreat.
SPEAKER_00 (13:10):
For any teenage young adult girls out there who
are maybe sad that they haven'thad a boyfriend yet, it's okay.
SPEAKER_02 (13:18):
Yeah, way to go.
SPEAKER_00 (13:19):
It's okay.
SPEAKER_02 (13:19):
Okay, now I will say, now I always tell this to
every couple, so you're not thefirst couple I've told this to.
Yeah.
Um, however, the worst part ofyour life relationally is
engagement because you kind ofhave all the responsibility of
being married with none of theperks.
SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
So I've heard you say this before.
SPEAKER_02 (13:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:36):
Prior to when I was engaged, and I was like, Chris
doesn't know what he's talkingabout.
SPEAKER_02 (13:40):
I am the exception.
SPEAKER_00 (13:42):
And now and now I'm engaged, and I was like, Chris
is right.
Chris is right.
SPEAKER_02 (13:51):
Yeah, I really gonna enjoy that moment.
SPEAKER_00 (13:52):
Which, if anyone knows me, my three least
favorite words in the Englishlanguage are Chris is right.
SPEAKER_02 (13:57):
Yeah, see, there you go.
SPEAKER_00 (13:59):
Um, I don't like that, but here we are, and I'm
saying it live.
SPEAKER_02 (14:02):
Okay, so let's get as an example issue you might
find yourself is deciding on awedding bench.
SPEAKER_00 (14:07):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (14:08):
So let's hypothetically go there.
How might that be difficult?
SPEAKER_00 (14:12):
So my fiance, who I love very much, yeah, shout out
to Nick if you're listening tothis.
I love you.
Um, because he probably will.
That's good.
Uh but he cares a lot, um, whichI did not expect.
Yeah.
Because I've been told my wholelife that like your fiance won't
(14:33):
care.
He's just nowhere to stand.
Yeah.
Just tell him what to wear andwhen to show up, and he'll be
there.
And I'm like, okay, cool.
And so I've gone my whole lifethinking, like, he's not gonna
care.
I get to make all the decisions,and that in fact is not true.
Not true at all.
He cares and he wants to makedecisions together.
And uh, it's wonderful, it'sawesome.
We have different ways ofapproaching problems.
(14:55):
Yeah, he's extremely analytical,he likes data, and so he wanted
to analyze every wedding venueand compare them against each
other.
SPEAKER_02 (15:08):
And okay, so not as a man, I I hear that and I go,
what else would you do?
SPEAKER_00 (15:15):
I don't spend that much time.
SPEAKER_02 (15:17):
You just go, I feel this is the place.
SPEAKER_00 (15:20):
I mean, a little bit.
I do, I mean, I I do like lookat cost.
Like cost is a really bigfactor.
What's included in that cost?
So, like, there's financial costand there's like value.
SPEAKER_02 (15:31):
Basic cost benefit analysis.
SPEAKER_00 (15:33):
And so, yeah, so like, okay, this venue is a
little more expensive than thisvenue, but it includes like
twice as much as what this venuedoes.
Right.
So, like, this venue is morevaluable.
And then, you know, oh, how didI feel when I was there?
And what was the view like?
And can I envision myselfwalking down that aisle?
So, you know, there's a wholelot of like emotion.
There's a lot of emotion tied tothis.
There is, there's a lot ofpeople.
SPEAKER_02 (15:53):
Does he have the same amount of emotion tied to
it as he's looking at venues, oris it just like pure numbers?
SPEAKER_00 (15:59):
No, there's some emotion.
Oh, okay.
There's there's some emotion,but I think it's easier for him
to let go of the emotion than itis for me.
SPEAKER_02 (16:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:07):
Um, and I kind of have this vision of a wedding in
my head.
SPEAKER_02 (16:10):
Tell me, let's just go to your head wedding for a
moment.
SPEAKER_00 (16:13):
Okay, my head wedding, man.
Okay.
So it's in a really beautifulplace.
SPEAKER_02 (16:17):
Okay.
Is it outside?
SPEAKER_00 (16:18):
Um, I would like to get married outside.
Okay.
I actually have opinions that Ibelieve are grounded in
scripture from the.
SPEAKER_02 (16:25):
I would love to hear this grounded scripture.
SPEAKER_00 (16:27):
Um, well, first of all, the first wedding, Adam and
Eve, took place in the mostbeautiful place on earth.
In a garden of Eden.
Nice.
The Garden of Eden.
Where is what is up with thisobsession with getting married
in church buildings?
Look, Jesus is real specificabout who the church is, and it
is not a building with fourwalls.
SPEAKER_02 (16:46):
Boom.
All right.
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (16:48):
So, like, why are we stuck on getting married in a
church?
Like, not that that's notbeautiful.
Hey, listen.
SPEAKER_02 (16:54):
And if you're just everyone who just got married in
church, including me, she justtotally said your marriage
doesn't count.
SPEAKER_00 (16:59):
So that's not what I meant.
Don't twist my words,Christopher.
Um, look, everyone gets to maketheir own choices and it's it's
preference.
SPEAKER_02 (17:09):
It's not Garden of Eden.
I'm down with the Garden ofEden.
SPEAKER_00 (17:11):
Yeah, Garden of Eden.
So, like, I love and like I Ihave felt the most connected to
God when I've been in nature,and there are like specific
places where that's happened.
And so I love the idea ofgetting married in the hills,
surrounded by trees.
Like, I want to get marriedoutside, you know, hopefully in
cooler weather.
SPEAKER_02 (17:32):
I'm not gonna make Are you going December wedding?
SPEAKER_00 (17:35):
Uh we don't really know yet.
Okay.
I mean late next year, sometimemaybe.
SPEAKER_02 (17:39):
So are you so I I guess that gets into the price.
Like, when are we gonna getmarried?
Like, I love this venue, but Ican only get it in this month or
whatever.
That's gonna be a part of it.
SPEAKER_00 (17:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we're pretty flexible as faras dates go.
We're looking at, you know,middle of the week, something
like that.
Middle of the week costs down,Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,
yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:55):
You could do it Thanksgiving week and then you
knock it out.
SPEAKER_00 (17:58):
My brother got married Thanksgiving week.
See then it's like traditionalready, you know?
So um, but yeah, so I mean thereare lots of options as far as
dates, and I'm not tied to anyone specific one, but um, I do
want to get married in abeautiful place.
Now there are some So can youtell me?
SPEAKER_02 (18:14):
I know are you allowed to share some of the
places you've looked at?
SPEAKER_00 (18:16):
Sure, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:17):
All right.
SPEAKER_00 (18:17):
Um, we looked at um High Point Estate up in Liberty
Hill.
It's one of yeah, Debbie Sasshas done a lot of winter.
Yeah, that place is beautiful.
SPEAKER_02 (18:24):
I love that place.
SPEAKER_00 (18:25):
Typically, their indoor chapel is gorgeous.
SPEAKER_02 (18:27):
Wait, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Indoors.
I know it's indoor, but it'sthey do have a pretty garden
outside, though.
SPEAKER_00 (18:34):
They do, but the chapel like kind of beats that.
SPEAKER_02 (18:36):
Oh wow, you're US totally reverse course.
Now, I'm not saying this mightbe frustrating for a potential
husband.
Um when you kind of get an idea,you I heard one thing, but then
your first wedding venue youtalk about, you say a completely
different thing.
SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
Yeah, so he really wants to get married inside.
SPEAKER_02 (18:57):
Okay, and so is this the great compromise?
SPEAKER_00 (18:59):
And well, it's not on our list anymore,
unfortunately.
Sorry, um it's it didn't workout like pricing and stuff.
Okay, got it.
And it's like kind of far away.
There are other venues that sothat one's out.
SPEAKER_02 (19:10):
Liberty Village Gone.
SPEAKER_00 (19:10):
All right, but one of the ones that we're still
considering is called VintageVillas, and it's uh it's in Lago
Vist.
SPEAKER_02 (19:16):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_00 (19:17):
No, no, no, Lake Way, sorry.
It's in Lake Way.
SPEAKER_02 (19:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, I think I've done 620.
Yeah, I've done that one on thelake.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:24):
Um, it's beautiful and it's a hotel, and that is an
outdoor ceremony.
SPEAKER_02 (19:28):
But shoot, no, I don't know that one.
SPEAKER_00 (19:30):
Beautiful gazebo.
SPEAKER_02 (19:31):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (19:31):
With this um, it's wisteria vine.
SPEAKER_02 (19:34):
Oh, fun.
SPEAKER_00 (19:35):
And so it's green most of the year.
SPEAKER_02 (19:38):
Is it a hotel like hotel or is it like a bed and
breakfast hotel type?
SPEAKER_00 (19:41):
It's a it's a hotel.
SPEAKER_02 (19:42):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_00 (19:43):
Yeah.
Um, but they it's like styled aslike villas, yeah.
Three different villas.
Oh fun.
Um, so it can sleep a lot ofpeople, um, and you can block
off an entire villa if you want.
Um, and then but it like looksout over Lake Travis.
SPEAKER_02 (19:57):
Oh, gorgeous.
SPEAKER_00 (19:58):
And the landscaping is beautiful.
So it gives you the garden vibe.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (20:02):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (20:02):
Very much garden vibe.
Um, there's a really prettyterrace that's well shaded for
cocktail hour.
Um, the event center where theydo the reception is also really
beautiful.
Um, you know, kind of like atits bare bones, like it's
already a really good thing.
SPEAKER_02 (20:16):
So when you went there, was there something in
your heart that said, This isit?
Yeah, kind of.
And then Nick's response was Ilike it.
SPEAKER_00 (20:27):
Or actually, so this this particular place was his
pick, and it has been his pickfrom the beginning.
Um in other words, just let himchoose.
I that's kind of where I'm at.
Cause like he has great taste.
Okay.
He really does.
The the three three of the threeof our top venues, I think, were
all his his find.
(20:47):
Like all three of them are once.
SPEAKER_02 (20:49):
You're you're making you're raising the standard on
uh fiance everywhere to get thisright.
I mean, that's that's becauseI'll tell you how much
involvement I had on picking thewedding venue.
It's like next to zip.
Um, I was just grateful to getmarried.
Okay, so so he got he he haveyou guys, are you settled or are
you still discussing?
SPEAKER_00 (21:07):
No, we're still discussing.
So we've kind of we've kind ofdetermined what like what our
top things are, and then thenext step is go to the parents.
SPEAKER_02 (21:15):
Oh, nice.
SPEAKER_00 (21:16):
So he wants to get his parents' opinion just like
on the three different places tolike see what they think.
Um, and then we're also gonna goto my mom and be like, hey, this
is what it costs, like how muchwould you be willing to I mean,
because man, anytime you bringmore people's opinions in, it
gets really dangerous.
SPEAKER_02 (21:33):
But man, I love I love the roll of the dice.
SPEAKER_00 (21:36):
But I think I think uh in an effort to honor his
parents and help them becausethey're also paying for his
they're paying for his sister'swedding.
She's getting married in Mexicoin May.
Um and so I think it helps himgive a little helps him give
them a little bit perspective oflike, yeah, this is what
weddings cost.
SPEAKER_02 (21:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:56):
So that's that's sweet.
Yeah, I I think it's a really,you know, a really good thing.
SPEAKER_02 (22:03):
Um so you guys and pretty much manage this pretty
well.
I mean, what what what where'sthe tension come?
Is there any tension there?
SPEAKER_00 (22:16):
All right, good.
Suddenly I'm not.
SPEAKER_02 (22:18):
Yeah, so is there any okay, so this is good.
This this is the tension ofbeing engaged.
Yeah.
What other areas did you sort ofassume you had, I don't I don't
know what the right word is, uh,that you would preside over that
now you're running into the uhhe has opinions.
All of it.
Really?
Yeah.
All of it.
SPEAKER_00 (22:39):
Except my dress.
He's not said anything aboutthat.
SPEAKER_02 (22:43):
Yeah, he's a very wise man.
That's good.
Other than that, looks great.
SPEAKER_00 (22:47):
Uh okay, so he has a lot of opinions.
He does.
He has a lot of opinions, andhonestly, they're great
opinions.
SPEAKER_02 (22:55):
Like so, so he has good taste.
Yeah, it's just I think you'rethat's why one of the reasons
why you're marrying him.
SPEAKER_00 (23:00):
Probably, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (23:00):
Yeah, so okay, so for you, this is you're kind of
running up against, I don'tknow, I'm gonna call it the
flesh.
Like, there's something in youthat says, I I want to make some
decisions here, and then he'skind of does it feel domineering
initially?
Or tell me what the initial vibeis.
It's like you're so controlling.
SPEAKER_00 (23:17):
What's the yeah, it is definitely it is definitely
that.
Like I said, I'm feeling like aloss of agency.
SPEAKER_02 (23:25):
Okay, good.
SPEAKER_00 (23:26):
Like it almost it like it feels like for me, and I
want to be really clear that inreality is not actually like
this.
This is just how I feel forthose listening.
This is just how I feel.
This is not reality, but I feellike my desires don't matter.
SPEAKER_02 (23:46):
Interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (23:47):
Like I I was kind of spiraling on this the other day
because I was like, he's justgonna make whatever choice he
wants, and it's not gonna matterwhat I think or how I feel, or
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And that's not true.
Right.
That's not true.
He has said that's not true.
He's been very clear about like,hey, what you think really does
matter to me.
(24:07):
The fact that we sat down forfour hours on Monday and went
through all of these venuestogether means that he wants my
he wants to hear my opinion, hewants to hear my thoughts.
SPEAKER_02 (24:20):
Like, he wants to know, like So this is really
helpful because it might not bethat he actually got the I have
feelings that aren't truespeech.
Did he get that speech or did hejust get a lot of feelings?
SPEAKER_00 (24:32):
No, I think he just got a lot of feelings.
Okay, so also like this is thisis now like three days of
processing.
Yeah, yeah.
You've been processing.
Like, I've been processing thisfor three days.
SPEAKER_02 (24:40):
How did he respond to you when you're like
feelings, feelings, I have noagency.
SPEAKER_00 (24:45):
And then he responds with uh there was a very there
have been several heateddiscussions where he's just like
I don't understand why you'rewhy are you angry?
SPEAKER_02 (25:02):
Ah, that's good.
That's gonna be a that'll happenmany a time in his marriage.
SPEAKER_00 (25:06):
Or you know, I think maybe he thinks I'm about to
cry, and he's like, Why are youcrying?
And I'm like, I'm not crying.
Um and I probably was, in fact,about to cry, but out of sheer
spite, I'm gonna not cry now.
SPEAKER_02 (25:22):
Oh, nice.
That is good.
SPEAKER_00 (25:23):
Which is just healthy and great, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (25:25):
So there's a verse for this that might be helpful
to Nick.
1 Peter 3:7.
Likewise, husbands live withyour wives in an understanding
way, showing honor to the womanas the weaker vessel, since they
are heirs with you of the graceof life, so that your prayers
may not be hindered.
SPEAKER_00 (25:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:44):
There's two so that's in there.
Uh there's a since and a sothat.
Since they're heirs with you,and you're like, oh yeah, they
come alongside me, so that my myprayers may not be hindered if I
don't live with my wife in anunderstanding way.
So I think this is like theunderstanding way comes comes in
the there's gonna be a moreemotion, and honestly, that's a
good thing.
Like the emotions that a womanhas are great, and not all women
(26:08):
are wired this way.
But I think sometimes women liketo like to declare that they
don't have emotion, and usuallywhen they do that, that means
they're super emotional, theyjust don't regulate it well.
SPEAKER_00 (26:19):
And well, probably also avoidant, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (26:22):
Avoidant, yeah.
There we go.
Yeah, not in touch whatsoeverwith your emotions, and so like
they just comes over them in aneruption, and then it it's a lot
of frustration.
Now, on the flip side, men canbecome so dismissive, uh, you're
overreacting.
And so there is a there's athere's a middle ground here,
but I think this is why men arecalled to lead.
(26:44):
I think um when a man gives uphis authority uh or as the head
of the household and um is sortof saying, he's saying, I am now
not responsible for you.
It's now we're like, you know,oh, you made your own choice,
(27:05):
you made your own bed, go lie init.
I think that happens a lot withrelationships where we just sort
of live our lives in the samehome, but we're on our
individual tracks.
Whether whereas instead, if I'mresponsible for you to love,
nourish, cherish my wife in away that's honoring of her, that
where she has her needs met, heremotions are cared for, uh, and
(27:26):
I'm ten I'm tending to her in aloving way, it blesses a wife to
trust her husband more.
And I think this is part of theprocess for you guys.
SPEAKER_00 (27:37):
Yeah.
Because I like one of the reallygreat things about him that is
also simultaneously one of mybiggest challenges is he is
really good at pushing back.
And I have never had that kindof relationship with any man
(28:00):
ever.
SPEAKER_02 (28:01):
Like, what about your own dad?
Your dad doesn't push back?
SPEAKER_00 (28:04):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (28:05):
Do you just go, oh, this is the way it's gonna be?
SPEAKER_00 (28:06):
And he just like he he's just not even really
emotionally available.
SPEAKER_02 (28:12):
So So the fact that Nick just doesn't dismiss you
and also doesn't or he engageswith you.
SPEAKER_00 (28:20):
He does, he does.
Um the engaging is kind of rockystill because we're still
figuring each other out and howto communicate and stuff like
that.
And I have a I do have a reallyhard time like communicating in
the moment, like what I'mfeeling.
Like most of the time I'm justmad.
(28:42):
And anger is a secondaryemotion.
There's something else downthere's some wound down there.
This and it takes me a couple ofdays to figure out what that
second what that underlyingthing is.
SPEAKER_02 (28:54):
Wow.
So the whole I I'm losing myagency thing, yeah, were you
able to articulate that toyourself then or is that
something you processed?
SPEAKER_00 (29:00):
No, I I kind of uncovered that yesterday.
What a so like I, you know, theI was like, wow, I think like I
think what I'm feeling is a lossof agency.
Like that's what this feelslike.
I feel like I have no choice.
And like I said, like that's notactually true.
Um and and it kind of dawned onme, I was like, that submission
(29:22):
is is is is this like it'strusting the one you're
submitting to that they haveyour good in mind and that their
decision is in line with theLord's will.
Wow.
Um and my my thoughts and myfeelings and my opinions do
(29:42):
matter.
He's taken the time to hear meout, and he's taking all of that
into consideration when he makesthis decision, but ultimately,
like he's making the decisionfor us.
SPEAKER_02 (29:54):
Does that make you feel ultimately the fact that
you have a future husband?
That cares about the stuff thatyou care about, that matters.
That's a that's a one.
SPEAKER_00 (30:04):
And the fact that he's doing that now while we're
engaged, that's a big honk indeal.
Oh, yeah.
Because it means that he's he'slike setting, he's trying to set
himself, set us up now forsuccess later.
Yeah.
And like it's so true.
Like you when you play a sportsgame, you whatever it is, you
(30:30):
have weeks of practice beforethat.
SPEAKER_03 (30:33):
Nice.
SPEAKER_00 (30:33):
So you don't just like go into it without
practicing.
Fair enough.
And if you're cra if you'recrappy at practice, you're
probably not gonna do well atthe game.
SPEAKER_02 (30:41):
You speak truth, all right.
SPEAKER_00 (30:43):
I'm just saying, and like this is the same thing.
Like dating and engagement areare well, dating is an
evaluation, engagement is moreevaluating, but also like mostly
preparation for marriage.
SPEAKER_03 (30:56):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (30:56):
So if you're not doing it in engagement, wow, do
you think that marriage is gonnabe any different?
SPEAKER_02 (31:03):
It's good, it's really good.
SPEAKER_00 (31:04):
Because it's not.
SPEAKER_02 (31:06):
Way to go.
SPEAKER_00 (31:06):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (31:07):
That that's that's a lot of processing you've done.
SPEAKER_00 (31:10):
It's a lot of processing.
The past several days have been.
Oh, yeah, all the time.
SPEAKER_02 (31:14):
So, like, and I think this is where guys, uh, we
don't live in this world um forthe most part.
But it sounds like what I'velearned from my wife is that
she'll take something I said,she'll mull over three different
ways, put a bunch of differentmotives behind it, and go, like,
if you said if you meant it thisway, it means this.
If you meant it this way, itcould mean this.
And then I would just like, Iwant to go jump off a cliff if I
(31:34):
did that much mulling it over.
Uh, but so for you, as you'reyou're thinking about the
conversation, are you turning itover and over and over and over
again?
SPEAKER_00 (31:41):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (31:42):
So is it true then, perhaps if a husband makes a
decision the the that the wifeis not totally on board with
yet, that she'll probably turnit over a thousand more times
and might get to like on her ownwithout having to because
sometimes men can grind wherethose say it again and again in
three, five hundred differentways to make sure you get the
point, as opposed to land theplane, trust that you're gonna
(32:06):
think about it and walk away.
SPEAKER_00 (32:09):
Yeah, just trust that we're gonna think about it
because we are, whether you wantus to or not.
SPEAKER_02 (32:13):
Yeah, yeah.
So you might as well.
Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (32:16):
So, and that's you know, I and part of what I do,
especially when we have when wehave a fight, or if he says
something that kind of rubs methe wrong way, and I start to
think things about him.
Yeah.
I ask myself, like, well, isthat true of his character based
on what I've seen?
Um ninety-nine percent of thetime the answer is no.
SPEAKER_02 (32:39):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (32:40):
99% of the time, what I think he meant, what I
think he said, is not actuallywhat he meant.
It's not actually what he said.
SPEAKER_02 (32:50):
Um Do you ever remember wrong?
Meaning like he said, I want togo to McDonald's, and you heard,
I want to go to Wendy's.
And like all of a sudden, you'renow really upset about Wendy's
because you were promisedMcDonald's, and then you get
angry at him about whatever thething was that you remembered
(33:11):
wrong, and then he has to golike, I never said that.
I think or do you nail it on onon with your memory?
SPEAKER_00 (33:17):
I think he would say that I do that.
And I I probably do some of thetime, but I don't think that's
true all of the time.
SPEAKER_02 (33:26):
Because that might be the danger of mulling it over
a whole bunch, because if youmole over the wrong thing or
like you get a word wrong, oryeah, now you're thinking.
SPEAKER_00 (33:34):
Well, and like I need to go, I need to be better
about going back to him andclarifying, like, hey, I think
you said this.
Is that what you actually meant?
SPEAKER_03 (33:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:42):
Um, but doing that in a like in a neutral way is in
a way of curiosity as opposed toa way of accusing that.
SPEAKER_00 (33:50):
That's difficult.
SPEAKER_02 (33:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:52):
So, you know, there's that.
Um, but yeah, and and so whatI've learned is that wedding
planning is sanctifying.
SPEAKER_02 (34:01):
Very sanctifying.
Very all of marriage is actuallysanctifying.
SPEAKER_00 (34:03):
I have heard that about marriage.
Yes, yes.
But it also happens when you'replanning a wedding.
It doesn't matter.
I don't think it matters howmuch your wedding costs or how
big it is or where you have itor whatever.
Like the whole process, like Godis gonna find find a way to use
that to work out the sin in you,and it's gonna be painful.
SPEAKER_02 (34:26):
Yeah.
I guess my only piece of advice,just for your own sanity, is
pick a date soon.
Yeah, otherwise, it could flowtill forever, and you you're
you're fine right now becauseyou've only been engaged for how
long?
SPEAKER_00 (34:40):
Like two months almost.
SPEAKER_02 (34:42):
So you're two months in.
Month three hits are hits, andit's gonna feel like this is
forever.
And then when you don't have anactual date, and then it's like,
oh, we need to push it back toJanuary because you know
everything's booked, like Iwould I would jump on that.
So that's what I'm gonna do.
SPEAKER_00 (34:58):
Yeah, I think that's I think that's the plan.
Um we wanna we we are both likepretty in line with like we want
to get this checked off likepretty quickly.
So because once we do that, allof the other dominoes start to
kind of fall.
SPEAKER_02 (35:14):
Yep.
That it's gonna make all of yourlife a lot easier.
All right.
I want to go shift back to likewe what you said of like new
wave feminism.
Talk to me about like where likewhere does that term come from?
Uh and and give me some of yourthoughts on what it means.
SPEAKER_00 (35:31):
Yeah, I don't know if that is the like actual
technical term for it, but whenI think it's like third wave,
isn't third wave?
Third wave is is, I believe,what what happened in the like
sixties and seventies.
Right.
Like that's my mom's generation.
SPEAKER_02 (35:45):
So we're talking about the new wave, fourth wave,
perhaps.
SPEAKER_00 (35:47):
Seriously, yeah, maybe.
Um so it's what's going on rightnow where like the the really
big the really big thing thatpeople like to put on t-shirts
is like the future is female.
SPEAKER_02 (35:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:58):
And that scares the crap out of me.
Tell me why that is.
Um, you're forgetting half thepopulation.
SPEAKER_02 (36:05):
Fair enough, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:06):
Very important half of the population.
And like we need strong, strongmen.
And I'm not I'm not just talkingabout like strong, right?
It's like physically strong.
I mean like like likespiritually strong, mentally
strong providers who can who canbuild up and support a family, a
(36:32):
household, a nation, right,whatever.
Like the leaders that we have inthis country right now are
screwy.
Um, male, female, whatever.
They're all screwy.
And the problem with that isthat like the concept of
fatherhood is like was likelost.
SPEAKER_02 (36:52):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (36:53):
You know, and so you kind of see it coming back.
SPEAKER_02 (36:56):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:57):
Now for sure.
SPEAKER_02 (36:58):
I feel like like praise God.
We're having like a revolutionof men being like, all right,
I'm done.
Yeah.
I I I'm not in fact, here'swhat's wild.
This is going across like acrossthe spectrum of Christianity.
Young men are more active inchurch than young women by far.
And we see it in our churchclearly.
There's way more young men thanthere are young women.
(37:20):
Yeah.
And that's because I think menhave felt ostracized and
defeated by the culture.
And so they're gonna go the oneplace that says, hey, not only
do we accept you, we're callingyou to lead and be great and be
strong.
Um, I think you're right.
I think the the new wavefeminine feminism, or it is
fourth wave feminism, camearound in 2016 with really the
Me Too movement, was like reallythe Yeah.
(37:44):
And and then theirintersectionality were like
gender and race, and here'swhere I'm doubly disadvantaged,
and we're gonna take over.
Um and I think it's it's kind ofgot that's where you know toxic
masculinity got at its height oflike we are gonna fight back
against the evils of men andpatriarchy and all that.
SPEAKER_00 (38:04):
Yeah, well, and I will like I will say there is
such a thing as like toxicmasculinity or whatever.
That's a buzzword now, but butthere are like cultural concepts
for that, um, where but but it'susually where like cult like
culture, and I I don't mean likebig C culture, I mean like small
C culture within certainpopulations where like male
(38:27):
aggression and male violence hasbeen normalized.
SPEAKER_02 (38:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (38:32):
And like that's not what we want.
SPEAKER_02 (38:33):
I mean, we there's a whole t-shirt called a wife
beater.
Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (38:37):
Like it's that.
And and like that's not what theBible teaches.
Right.
That's not that's not anythinglike what I've seen.
The men in our church are someof the like like in a sense like
softest men that I've seen, butnot in like a when you go soft,
you can be like bambi pambi, butlike when you see them interact
(38:58):
with their wives or you see theminteract with their daughters,
like there is a softness, agentleness, yes, to them.
Um, but like, you know, whenthey interact with their sons,
like there's still a gentleness,but it's different.
And the fact that you can likedifferentiate that based on what
your child needs, what your wifeneeds, what your friends need,
(39:19):
you know, like I'm not gonna betough love with every friend
that I have, right?
But with some of them, I'm gonnabe like, get your crap together,
you're better than this.
SPEAKER_02 (39:26):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (39:27):
Um and I see a lot of the men in our church being
that way with kids and stuff.
And so that's reallyencouraging.
And to know that those are themen that are pouring into my
fiance is also reallyencouraging.
SPEAKER_02 (39:40):
Yeah, that's sweet.
So I think that just the I thinkwhat's happened since 2016,
really, whether that's the newwave or an extension of the
third wave, I think I thinkwhat's happened is just an
accelerant on the future isfemale, as opposed to this push
for equality, it's a push formatriarchy.
And what ends up happening isthings break down real fast
(40:05):
because men then sort of stepout and become ultra passive
when a woman is the head, andthat becomes a broken space,
whereas they become veryengaged, even to the point where
your fiance where they careabout stuff.
And I think in a in a spacewhere women have been sort of
like, This is my world, and I'mgonna do as I please, and you
(40:27):
need to sit over there and be inthe corner for having a man
engage is actually a wonderful,beautiful thing.
But everyone's gonna engage itdifferently.
Like I still think there couldmen could delegate in a sense
like, hey, whatever you want, Iwant to just support you in
making your dream wedding cometrue, and you know, whatever the
cost, you know, you know, youknow, like hey, great.
Um, but I do think there is thatthe transition of like men need
(40:51):
to kind of set the tone for thehome of like what what does
discipline look like?
What does love look like?
What does spiritual life looklike?
What is all those differentaspects that fall on the on the
man's responsibility before Godto really lead his family
through that?
Yeah, and that can be reallyhard, especially if you don't
have a um a family backgroundthat was that.
(41:13):
And so it can feel a little bitlike the blind leading the blind
a little bit, or maybe the thehusband following her wife's
lead who did have something likethat.
Yeah, and now all of a sudden hefeels like, oh, I don't know
enough to make a decision,whatever you want to do.
And I think there comes a partwhere um people who don't know
have have uh the onus, men whodon't know, to to lead.
(41:34):
And you're allowed to ask yourwife, but then form an opinion
and a conviction based on theword of God to then lead your
family.
SPEAKER_00 (41:41):
Yeah.
So I I'm studying to be acounselor.
Yeah.
And so learning about humangrowth and development and all
of that stuff and differentforms of discipline and stuff.
I also have a lot of experienceworking with kids.
Yeah.
Um, and and Nick doesn't, andhe's acknowledged that.
And but like when it comes toraising kids, I like what you're
(42:01):
saying.
Like, I can give himinformation.
And it's the same thing that Iwould do with the parents of a
of a minor client.
Like, I can give you all of thisinformation so that you then can
make an informed decision.
But like you are ultimately thischild's parents, and like I'm
going to respect your decision.
Now, if it's abusive, that'sdifferent.
SPEAKER_02 (42:21):
But call the cops.
SPEAKER_00 (42:23):
Right.
That's that's a different story.
You know, we're not gonnatolerate that.
Um but but like ultimately Ihave to trust that these these
parents know their own childbetter than I do.
Um they made this childtogether.
In some cases, they've adoptedthem, they know their history
way better than I do.
(42:43):
They have a more intimateknowledge of that child.
And so I have to trust thatthey're doing the right thing,
even though I even with givingthem all this knowledge.
And so it's the same thing in Ithink in this husband-wife
relationship, where like, okay,I'm you're almost basically a
trad wife now.
Woo!
SPEAKER_02 (43:05):
I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (43:06):
I mean, like this is you know, I I between the two of
us, I'm the expert on children,right?
But like ultimately, like hemakes we do the I mean, this is
not only just in marriages.
SPEAKER_02 (43:19):
We do this all the time.
Like, no boss has all theinformation.
You take the information from asubordinate unit, like when the
army, and be like, hey, a scoutsaid something on the ground,
I'm gonna based on hisinformation, I still have to
make the decision.
He can make a recommendation,but I make a decision.
Um and I and I think what you'retalking about is the same sort
of deal where what the hard partfor a woman who probably knows
(43:43):
in her knows what's best, andthen her husband makes a wrong
call, she still has to kind ofexecute, and that's hard.
SPEAKER_00 (43:52):
So, yes, Leah Brown said something a while ago that
I thought was really wise.
SPEAKER_02 (44:02):
Leah is a very wise woman.
SPEAKER_00 (44:03):
Leah is one of the wisest people that I know.
Um, she's also a very strongpersonality, she's a very strong
personality, but she does givespace for her husband to lead
their family.
SPEAKER_02 (44:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (44:13):
And one of those things.
SPEAKER_02 (44:14):
We have a lot of strong personalities at our
church.
SPEAKER_00 (44:16):
One of the things that she said is they were
trying to make a decision aboutsomething, and she had given him
his her opinion or thoughts orwhatever.
And she was like, but ultimatelyhe's gonna be the one that has
to stand before the Lord andaccount for his leadership in
our family.
Nice.
And I was like, Man, you'reright.
Like, like, because he's theleader, he will be held
(44:36):
accountable for his leadership.
And so if he makes the wrongdecision, it's not on me, it's
not on our kids, it's on him.
Yeah, and that is that's theburden of leadership.
Um, and that I look, that'sscary.
Like, if I'm being reallyhonest, I don't want that for
myself.
(44:56):
Like, I don't envy that burden,and so I'm really grateful that
I'm marrying someone who hasalready stepped into that role.
Hey, way to go.
SPEAKER_02 (45:06):
Like, like I said, it's it's a super challenge,
engagement's hard.
I recommend short ones.
Uh, but even if you go long, itway to go.
It's it's it's it's it's anarduous task, put a date out
there and and then kind of setyour goal, set as sights on the
goal to make decisions togetherultimately.
Hey, listen, if you've got anyquestions, you can text us at
(45:28):
737-231-0605.
We would love to hear from you.
Uh, one of our favorite thingsis to answer your questions
about faith, culture, everythingin between.
Any other thoughts there,Nicole, on state of feminism?
SPEAKER_00 (45:40):
You know, just really grateful I got to talk to
you about this.
SPEAKER_02 (45:43):
Yeah, it's super fun.
Hey, we'll see you next time.
Go ahead, push back somedarkness, and have an awesome
week of worship.
And welcome back to Pastor Plex Podcast.
I'm your host, Pastor Plex,along with none other than
Nicole SuperTrooper Troop.
And welcome back to the show.
Thank you.
It's been a while.
So we have a question thatsparked a lot of conversation in
and amongst the staff here.
And it is this from a listener.
And thank you for sending in.
This is from a post from a guynamed John Moody, not the
(00:28):
question asker, but the uhinfluencer.
He says, Hey, if brothers, if awoman uses the phrase mutual
submission when talking aboutmarriage, you're about to be in
for a lifetime of sorrow andsuffering.
Run like your life depended onit because it does.
Would enjoy both of youunpacking this thought and
whether you agree or disagreeand why.
SPEAKER_00 (00:51):
Well, I'll just be straight up.
I think that he's being reallydramatic.
All right, all right.
So you don't think you're gonnadie?
No, I don't think you're gonnadie.
I don't think that just becausea woman says that, that you're
in for a life of suffering andregret.
Um you might be in for sufferingand regret anyway, but that
(01:12):
might not be the problem.
SPEAKER_02 (01:14):
Yeah, yeah.
So let's get in.
I think the text is reallycomplicated.
I think this is where it'simportant to know what text this
guy is talking about.
Uh so look carefully then howyou walk, not as unwise, but as
wise, making the best use of thetime because the days are evil.
This is Ephesians 5.
Therefore, do not be foolish,but understand what the will of
the Lord is, and do not getdrunk with wine, for it is
(01:35):
debauchery.
But but be filled with theSpirit, addressing one another
in psalms and hymns andspiritual songs, singing and
making melody to the Lord withyour heart.
Give you thanks always and foreverything to God the Father, in
the name of our Lord JesusChrist, submitting to one
another out of reverence forChrist.
Wives, submit to your ownhusbands, as to the Lord, for
(01:56):
the husband is the head of thewife, even as Christ the head of
the church, its body, and ishimself its savior.
Now, as the church submits toChrist, so also wives should
submit in everything to theirhusbands.
Husbands, love your wives, asChrist loved the church and gave
himself up for her, that hemight sanctify her, having
cleansed her by the washing ofwater with the word, so that he
might present the church tohimself in splendor, without
(02:17):
spot or a wrinkle or any suchthing, that she might be holy
and without blemish.
In the same way husbands shouldlove their wives as their own
bodies, he who loves his wifeloves himself.
No one ever hated his own flesh,but nourishes and cherishes it
just as the church Christ doesthe church, because we are
members of his body.
Therefore, a man shall leave hisfather and mother hold fast to
his wife, and the two shallbecome one flesh.
(02:38):
This mystery is profound, andI'm saying that it refers to
Christ in the church.
However, let each one of youlove his wife as himself, let
the wife see that she respectsher husband.
Okay.
That's the backdrop of wherethis verse is coming from.
Yeah.
And usually why people say thatuh submit to one another out of
reverence for Christ, um,because that's where the word
hopotasso comes.
(02:59):
And then it says in the nextverse, wives to your own
husbands.
It doesn't actually say the wordsubmit isn't in there, it's just
borrowing from the word.
SPEAKER_00 (03:07):
It's this idea, like hey, also.
SPEAKER_02 (03:09):
Yeah, so submitting to one another out of reverence
for Christ.
Uh, so how do you submit as awife?
You submit to your husband.
How do you submit to your wifeout of reverence for Christ?
You lead her, but then that youdon't submit to her.
It's it's weird because youdon't really submit to her,
right?
I I do think there is somethingto um a sense of looking out
(03:33):
after her needs.
Yeah.
You can't have mutual submissionin the sense where um where it's
a husband and a wife because oneinevitably is gonna be the
leader.
But if I think what this issaying is like he's going to the
church, here's what the will ofthe Lord is.
(03:54):
Hey, as a church, you guys needto submit to one another, men,
and then now, hey, wives, submitto your husbands.
And then he kind of explainswhat that looks like.
And then husbands, love yourwives.
So I I don't think this is amutual submission because mutual
submission, it looks like this,which is really sweet.
No, you go first.
No, you go first, no, you gofirst, no, you go first.
SPEAKER_00 (04:13):
Well, and like, can we talk about the word
submission also?
Yeah, because that isunfortunately an ugly word.
Why is it an ugly word?
And um, I don't agree that itshould be an ugly word.
I think it's actually it'sgotten a bad rap.
It does, it has a bad rap.
SPEAKER_02 (04:30):
Yeah.
Where how could where is it seenas a um New Age feminism, man?
SPEAKER_00 (04:36):
Like it's broken us down, like it just has screwed
some things up.
I don't know why people likeit's like submission is equated
to like subservience and likeoppression, right?
And they're not the same thing.
SPEAKER_02 (04:52):
So it doesn't say husbands oppress your wives.
SPEAKER_00 (04:55):
That's a different word.
SPEAKER_02 (04:57):
Husbands smash the woman down as crush her and
that's not what it's rule herwith an iron fist.
Yeah, no, it says love her,sacrifice for her.
As Christ loved the church.
Right.
And so I think what happens is Ithink we've we've we so far and
I guess somewhere in the past,and listen, I we've done a good
job maybe correcting, and thenwe overcorrected with with men
(05:18):
like love loving their wives.
Um, and so what's happened inour culture, like this is just
just uh uh an observation.
We have men abdicating theirrole as a protector, you know,
like it used to be like a womanwould find safety in the arms of
her husband, like he wouldprotect her, he would make sure
(05:40):
they're gonna be okayfinancially, physically, and now
it's like every man for himself.
I think just culturally.
So there's this the I guess thefour P is protection, uh,
there's pursuit.
Like it's uh tough for menbecause if they pursue their
wives uh intimately, it can beseen as like I don't want to say
(06:01):
harassment, I don't go that far,but it can be like men have been
so um passive, yeah, uh thatthey have kind of left the
pursuit to their wife becausehey, we're all equal here.
Uh so you got protection, uh,you got pursuit, you got
provision.
And with the advent of thestay-at-home dad, uh, we have a
(06:23):
lot of men saying, like, listen,I I I will just be at home with
the children, and you go uh towork and you manage all of our
financial situation, and I willbe a kept man, so to speak,
yeah, and take care of thechildren.
And then and I and I feel likethat's unhealthy in the sense I
(06:46):
haven't seen it work out wellfor man.
SPEAKER_01 (06:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:49):
Like inevitably that a guy is gonna feel purposeless,
uh-huh.
Um, and then the woman ends updoing both things, taking care
of the children and workingreally hard and providing, and
the guy just is like just there.
SPEAKER_01 (07:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:06):
Uh and then um preside.
Fourth P preside.
Ooh, that's a fancy word.
Rule over the family.
Okay.
Like, so what happens is whenyou don't rule over the family,
someone does.
Either it's the culture, uh, itcould be the wife who then takes
into a role of control and shetreats her husband like another
(07:27):
one of the children.
And I think maybe over the pastseveral years, we've sort of
done a a weird thing, and maybejokingly at first, but then
ultimately I think it became areal thing.
I gotta go ask the boss first.
And so, what's that?
You know, that's like the theboss being the wife.
In fact, in in the military, um,we had a nickname for uh wives,
(07:49):
and that was household six,which the six element in the
army was the command element.
And so that's who runs my house.
I run at the job, but when weget down to home, she's in
charge there.
And I always was like that, sortof, and I know it was being
funny, but then what happened,words matter, is that over time
people started to believe thatthe woman was ahead of the home,
(08:12):
and that brought struggle, Ithink, for our culture that has
men genuinely going passiverelationally with their wives
anyway.
I don't know.
I know that's a lot to unpackright there.
It is and I fire hosed you, butanything on all those thoughts
that I just came out with?
SPEAKER_00 (08:28):
I do have some questions.
Um, so I guess the first thingis is like so you said like the
wife becoming the the boss, andI have to like go ask my boss.
Right, yeah.
So is is the ideal that theroles are flipped?
Is the man now the boss and likesuddenly the wife has to go and
(08:51):
ask permission?
SPEAKER_02 (08:52):
So yeah, so the way that I would look at it is it
depends, right?
Yeah, there are some things thatlike as a husband, you could
delegate the role of theauthority over to your wife,
which would be like so forexample, there are different
roles in a home, and and itdoesn't matter necessarily who
do them, what does who doesthem, who does them, but what
does matter is that theauthority of the husband is not,
(09:15):
I don't want to say question,that's a but it he is the one
that's supposed to be presidingover the family.
So, you know, he might be abetter cook, and so he's like,
hey, I'm gonna make the food.
Not because I don't think yourcookie is awesome.
Like, why put her in a rolewhere she's not gifted, she's
not great, and everyone suffers,right?
(09:36):
Like that might be that's a butthat's a decision that that
husband would make ultimately.
Now, I this is where if you loveyour wife, you're gonna hear her
needs.
SPEAKER_01 (09:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:47):
Like, and that's a part where I feel like what's
happened culturally is womendon't express needs because it
makes them look weak.
And when you look weak, then youjust get run over.
Yeah, as opposed to I express myneeds, and then my husband, who
is the fixer or loves to goesinto solution mode and solves
the problem.
Um, but the problem is we'rewe're present.
(10:08):
What usually happens with women,and I and I I know you'll be an
exception to this, is what womenstart doing is they start
telling their husbands what theyneed to be doing.
And and that's usually aresponse because they're afraid
of something.
Um so like the women are afraidof them.
The women are afraid, like, hey,I want my husband to be home
(10:29):
with the kids.
And so instead of saying, like,I need you home with the kids
because I'm exhausted andfrazzled by the end of the day,
and I need you to take over andlead our family, instead of
saying that, they say, You needto be home by four o'clock
because I'm having dinner, oryou need to get home by 5 30, or
you need to because I havedinner out, and if you're not,
it's gonna get cold, and likethat's blah, blah, blah.
And it's puts her in anauthoritative role, which is not
(10:52):
the design.
And then so the guy's like, Idon't want to create a fight,
and I don't, and then it putshim in a position where it might
be the wise thing for him tostay late at work for whatever
reason.
It might be, but then now he hasto go answer to the boss as
opposed to now.
Granted, do men stink at tellingtheir wives what time they're
coming home?
Absolutely.
I'm not gonna.
So that's why the height ofcommunication has to happen.
(11:15):
That's that's where it's like ahusband can love his wife really
well by sacrificially tellingher, Hey, I will be home later
this evening.
I'm so sorry for that.
But then she needs to be able tosay, I have a need for
companionship, I have a need foryour presence, I have a need for
your parenting.
And and that's the type ofconversation that needs to be
having.
And then that puts him in aplace to fix the problem as the
(11:36):
leader, as opposed to having hishaving his having his leadership
cut off.
Oh good job.
Good words.
Uh yeah.
Uh does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00 (11:47):
Yeah, that yeah, that does make sense.
I I think uh like the challengethat I have.
SPEAKER_02 (11:52):
As you are engaged.
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
I am, I am engaged.
Congratulations, thank you.
Um, for anyone who didn'talready know that, uh Nicole's
engaged.
I'm engaged.
That happened in August.
SPEAKER_02 (12:02):
It's Nick and Nicole.
How fun is that?
SPEAKER_00 (12:04):
In Squared.
Oh, N Squared.
That's what people, some peoplehave said.
I think that let's go with that.
Yeah, probably.
Um so yes, we're engaged.
Um, and so I am grapplingalready with feeling like a loss
of independence, a loss ofagency.
SPEAKER_02 (12:23):
And not and like you kind of have a more um stronger
feminine approach.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
I do.
I do.
Man, what great words.
SPEAKER_02 (12:33):
Well, and and listen, I yeah, you know, um I
can empathize with that.
SPEAKER_00 (12:38):
So it's well, also it's like it's hard for for me
just because of my personality.
Like you said, I'm a little bitstronger of a personality.
Um, I'm 30, I've been single mywhole life, I've never been in a
serious relationship like this.
SPEAKER_02 (12:51):
Hold on.
So, like, whoa, whoa, whoa, thisis like newsflash.
You mean you can get to 30without a serious relationship
in middle school, high school,college pro post-college, and
now all of a sudden you'regetting married and you've never
been in a relationship.
SPEAKER_00 (13:02):
Yeah.
Isn't that wild?
SPEAKER_02 (13:04):
That is amazing.
I mean, I know that sounds likeuh like I don't know how you
feel about it, but I think it'sgreat.
SPEAKER_00 (13:10):
For any teenage young adult girls out there who
are maybe sad that they haven'thad a boyfriend yet, it's okay.
SPEAKER_02 (13:18):
Yeah, way to go.
SPEAKER_00 (13:19):
It's okay.
SPEAKER_02 (13:19):
Okay, now I will say, now I always tell this to
every couple, so you're not thefirst couple I've told this to.
Yeah.
Um, however, the worst part ofyour life relationally is
engagement because you kind ofhave all the responsibility of
being married with none of theperks.
SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
So I've heard you say this before.
SPEAKER_02 (13:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:36):
Prior to when I was engaged, and I was like, Chris
doesn't know what he's talkingabout.
SPEAKER_02 (13:40):
I am the exception.
SPEAKER_00 (13:42):
And now and now I'm engaged, and I was like, Chris
is right.
Chris is right.
SPEAKER_02 (13:51):
Yeah, I really gonna enjoy that moment.
SPEAKER_00 (13:52):
Which, if anyone knows me, my three least
favorite words in the Englishlanguage are Chris is right.
SPEAKER_02 (13:57):
Yeah, see, there you go.
SPEAKER_00 (13:59):
Um, I don't like that, but here we are, and I'm
saying it live.
SPEAKER_02 (14:02):
Okay, so let's get as an example issue you might
find yourself is deciding on awedding bench.
SPEAKER_00 (14:07):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (14:08):
So let's hypothetically go there.
How might that be difficult?
SPEAKER_00 (14:12):
So my fiance, who I love very much, yeah, shout out
to Nick if you're listening tothis.
I love you.
Um, because he probably will.
That's good.
Uh but he cares a lot, um, whichI did not expect.
Yeah.
Because I've been told my wholelife that like your fiance won't
(14:33):
care.
He's just nowhere to stand.
Yeah.
Just tell him what to wear andwhen to show up, and he'll be
there.
And I'm like, okay, cool.
And so I've gone my whole lifethinking, like, he's not gonna
care.
I get to make all the decisions,and that in fact is not true.
Not true at all.
He cares and he wants to makedecisions together.
And uh, it's wonderful, it'sawesome.
We have different ways ofapproaching problems.
(14:55):
Yeah, he's extremely analytical,he likes data, and so he wanted
to analyze every wedding venueand compare them against each
other.
SPEAKER_02 (15:08):
And okay, so not as a man, I I hear that and I go,
what else would you do?
SPEAKER_00 (15:15):
I don't spend that much time.
SPEAKER_02 (15:17):
You just go, I feel this is the place.
SPEAKER_00 (15:20):
I mean, a little bit.
I do, I mean, I I do like lookat cost.
Like cost is a really bigfactor.
What's included in that cost?
So, like, there's financial costand there's like value.
SPEAKER_02 (15:31):
Basic cost benefit analysis.
SPEAKER_00 (15:33):
And so, yeah, so like, okay, this venue is a
little more expensive than thisvenue, but it includes like
twice as much as what this venuedoes.
Right.
So, like, this venue is morevaluable.
And then, you know, oh, how didI feel when I was there?
And what was the view like?
And can I envision myselfwalking down that aisle?
So, you know, there's a wholelot of like emotion.
There's a lot of emotion tied tothis.
There is, there's a lot ofpeople.
SPEAKER_02 (15:53):
Does he have the same amount of emotion tied to
it as he's looking at venues, oris it just like pure numbers?
SPEAKER_00 (15:59):
No, there's some emotion.
Oh, okay.
There's there's some emotion,but I think it's easier for him
to let go of the emotion than itis for me.
SPEAKER_02 (16:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:07):
Um, and I kind of have this vision of a wedding in
my head.
SPEAKER_02 (16:10):
Tell me, let's just go to your head wedding for a
moment.
SPEAKER_00 (16:13):
Okay, my head wedding, man.
Okay.
So it's in a really beautifulplace.
SPEAKER_02 (16:17):
Okay.
Is it outside?
SPEAKER_00 (16:18):
Um, I would like to get married outside.
Okay.
I actually have opinions that Ibelieve are grounded in
scripture from the.
SPEAKER_02 (16:25):
I would love to hear this grounded scripture.
SPEAKER_00 (16:27):
Um, well, first of all, the first wedding, Adam and
Eve, took place in the mostbeautiful place on earth.
In a garden of Eden.
Nice.
The Garden of Eden.
Where is what is up with thisobsession with getting married
in church buildings?
Look, Jesus is real specificabout who the church is, and it
is not a building with fourwalls.
SPEAKER_02 (16:46):
Boom.
All right.
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (16:48):
So, like, why are we stuck on getting married in a
church?
Like, not that that's notbeautiful.
Hey, listen.
SPEAKER_02 (16:54):
And if you're just everyone who just got married in
church, including me, she justtotally said your marriage
doesn't count.
SPEAKER_00 (16:59):
So that's not what I meant.
Don't twist my words,Christopher.
Um, look, everyone gets to maketheir own choices and it's it's
preference.
SPEAKER_02 (17:09):
It's not Garden of Eden.
I'm down with the Garden ofEden.
SPEAKER_00 (17:11):
Yeah, Garden of Eden.
So, like, I love and like I Ihave felt the most connected to
God when I've been in nature,and there are like specific
places where that's happened.
And so I love the idea ofgetting married in the hills,
surrounded by trees.
Like, I want to get marriedoutside, you know, hopefully in
cooler weather.
SPEAKER_02 (17:32):
I'm not gonna make Are you going December wedding?
SPEAKER_00 (17:35):
Uh we don't really know yet.
Okay.
I mean late next year, sometimemaybe.
SPEAKER_02 (17:39):
So are you so I I guess that gets into the price.
Like, when are we gonna getmarried?
Like, I love this venue, but Ican only get it in this month or
whatever.
That's gonna be a part of it.
SPEAKER_00 (17:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we're pretty flexible as faras dates go.
We're looking at, you know,middle of the week, something
like that.
Middle of the week costs down,Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,
yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:55):
You could do it Thanksgiving week and then you
knock it out.
SPEAKER_00 (17:58):
My brother got married Thanksgiving week.
See then it's like traditionalready, you know?
So um, but yeah, so I mean thereare lots of options as far as
dates, and I'm not tied to anyone specific one, but um, I do
want to get married in abeautiful place.
Now there are some So can youtell me?
SPEAKER_02 (18:14):
I know are you allowed to share some of the
places you've looked at?
SPEAKER_00 (18:16):
Sure, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:17):
All right.
SPEAKER_00 (18:17):
Um, we looked at um High Point Estate up in Liberty
Hill.
It's one of yeah, Debbie Sasshas done a lot of winter.
Yeah, that place is beautiful.
SPEAKER_02 (18:24):
I love that place.
SPEAKER_00 (18:25):
Typically, their indoor chapel is gorgeous.
SPEAKER_02 (18:27):
Wait, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Indoors.
I know it's indoor, but it'sthey do have a pretty garden
outside, though.
SPEAKER_00 (18:34):
They do, but the chapel like kind of beats that.
SPEAKER_02 (18:36):
Oh wow, you're US totally reverse course.
Now, I'm not saying this mightbe frustrating for a potential
husband.
Um when you kind of get an idea,you I heard one thing, but then
your first wedding venue youtalk about, you say a completely
different thing.
SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
Yeah, so he really wants to get married inside.
SPEAKER_02 (18:57):
Okay, and so is this the great compromise?
SPEAKER_00 (18:59):
And well, it's not on our list anymore,
unfortunately.
Sorry, um it's it didn't workout like pricing and stuff.
Okay, got it.
And it's like kind of far away.
There are other venues that sothat one's out.
SPEAKER_02 (19:10):
Liberty Village Gone.
SPEAKER_00 (19:10):
All right, but one of the ones that we're still
considering is called VintageVillas, and it's uh it's in Lago
Vist.
SPEAKER_02 (19:16):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_00 (19:17):
No, no, no, Lake Way, sorry.
It's in Lake Way.
SPEAKER_02 (19:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, I think I've done 620.
Yeah, I've done that one on thelake.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:24):
Um, it's beautiful and it's a hotel, and that is an
outdoor ceremony.
SPEAKER_02 (19:28):
But shoot, no, I don't know that one.
SPEAKER_00 (19:30):
Beautiful gazebo.
SPEAKER_02 (19:31):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (19:31):
With this um, it's wisteria vine.
SPEAKER_02 (19:34):
Oh, fun.
SPEAKER_00 (19:35):
And so it's green most of the year.
SPEAKER_02 (19:38):
Is it a hotel like hotel or is it like a bed and
breakfast hotel type?
SPEAKER_00 (19:41):
It's a it's a hotel.
SPEAKER_02 (19:42):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_00 (19:43):
Yeah.
Um, but they it's like styled aslike villas, yeah.
Three different villas.
Oh fun.
Um, so it can sleep a lot ofpeople, um, and you can block
off an entire villa if you want.
Um, and then but it like looksout over Lake Travis.
SPEAKER_02 (19:57):
Oh, gorgeous.
SPEAKER_00 (19:58):
And the landscaping is beautiful.
So it gives you the garden vibe.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (20:02):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (20:02):
Very much garden vibe.
Um, there's a really prettyterrace that's well shaded for
cocktail hour.
Um, the event center where theydo the reception is also really
beautiful.
Um, you know, kind of like atits bare bones, like it's
already a really good thing.
SPEAKER_02 (20:16):
So when you went there, was there something in
your heart that said, This isit?
Yeah, kind of.
And then Nick's response was Ilike it.
SPEAKER_00 (20:27):
Or actually, so this this particular place was his
pick, and it has been his pickfrom the beginning.
Um in other words, just let himchoose.
I that's kind of where I'm at.
Cause like he has great taste.
Okay.
He really does.
The the three three of the threeof our top venues, I think, were
all his his find.
(20:47):
Like all three of them are once.
SPEAKER_02 (20:49):
You're you're making you're raising the standard on
uh fiance everywhere to get thisright.
I mean, that's that's becauseI'll tell you how much
involvement I had on picking thewedding venue.
It's like next to zip.
Um, I was just grateful to getmarried.
Okay, so so he got he he haveyou guys, are you settled or are
you still discussing?
SPEAKER_00 (21:07):
No, we're still discussing.
So we've kind of we've kind ofdetermined what like what our
top things are, and then thenext step is go to the parents.
SPEAKER_02 (21:15):
Oh, nice.
SPEAKER_00 (21:16):
So he wants to get his parents' opinion just like
on the three different places tolike see what they think.
Um, and then we're also gonna goto my mom and be like, hey, this
is what it costs, like how muchwould you be willing to I mean,
because man, anytime you bringmore people's opinions in, it
gets really dangerous.
SPEAKER_02 (21:33):
But man, I love I love the roll of the dice.
SPEAKER_00 (21:36):
But I think I think uh in an effort to honor his
parents and help them becausethey're also paying for his
they're paying for his sister'swedding.
She's getting married in Mexicoin May.
Um and so I think it helps himgive a little helps him give
them a little bit perspective oflike, yeah, this is what
weddings cost.
SPEAKER_02 (21:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:56):
So that's that's sweet.
Yeah, I I think it's a really,you know, a really good thing.
SPEAKER_02 (22:03):
Um so you guys and pretty much manage this pretty
well.
I mean, what what what where'sthe tension come?
Is there any tension there?
SPEAKER_00 (22:16):
All right, good.
Suddenly I'm not.
SPEAKER_02 (22:18):
Yeah, so is there any okay, so this is good.
This this is the tension ofbeing engaged.
Yeah.
What other areas did you sort ofassume you had, I don't I don't
know what the right word is, uh,that you would preside over that
now you're running into the uhhe has opinions.
All of it.
Really?
Yeah.
All of it.
SPEAKER_00 (22:39):
Except my dress.
He's not said anything aboutthat.
SPEAKER_02 (22:43):
Yeah, he's a very wise man.
That's good.
Other than that, looks great.
SPEAKER_00 (22:47):
Uh okay, so he has a lot of opinions.
He does.
He has a lot of opinions, andhonestly, they're great
opinions.
SPEAKER_02 (22:55):
Like so, so he has good taste.
Yeah, it's just I think you'rethat's why one of the reasons
why you're marrying him.
SPEAKER_00 (23:00):
Probably, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (23:00):
Yeah, so okay, so for you, this is you're kind of
running up against, I don'tknow, I'm gonna call it the
flesh.
Like, there's something in youthat says, I I want to make some
decisions here, and then he'skind of does it feel domineering
initially?
Or tell me what the initial vibeis.
It's like you're so controlling.
SPEAKER_00 (23:17):
What's the yeah, it is definitely it is definitely
that.
Like I said, I'm feeling like aloss of agency.
SPEAKER_02 (23:25):
Okay, good.
SPEAKER_00 (23:26):
Like it almost it like it feels like for me, and I
want to be really clear that inreality is not actually like
this.
This is just how I feel forthose listening.
This is just how I feel.
This is not reality, but I feellike my desires don't matter.
SPEAKER_02 (23:46):
Interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (23:47):
Like I I was kind of spiraling on this the other day
because I was like, he's justgonna make whatever choice he
wants, and it's not gonna matterwhat I think or how I feel, or
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And that's not true.
Right.
That's not true.
He has said that's not true.
He's been very clear about like,hey, what you think really does
matter to me.
(24:07):
The fact that we sat down forfour hours on Monday and went
through all of these venuestogether means that he wants my
he wants to hear my opinion, hewants to hear my thoughts.
SPEAKER_02 (24:20):
Like, he wants to know, like So this is really
helpful because it might not bethat he actually got the I have
feelings that aren't truespeech.
Did he get that speech or did hejust get a lot of feelings?
SPEAKER_00 (24:32):
No, I think he just got a lot of feelings.
Okay, so also like this is thisis now like three days of
processing.
Yeah, yeah.
You've been processing.
Like, I've been processing thisfor three days.
SPEAKER_02 (24:40):
How did he respond to you when you're like
feelings, feelings, I have noagency.
SPEAKER_00 (24:45):
And then he responds with uh there was a very there
have been several heateddiscussions where he's just like
I don't understand why you'rewhy are you angry?
SPEAKER_02 (25:02):
Ah, that's good.
That's gonna be a that'll happenmany a time in his marriage.
SPEAKER_00 (25:06):
Or you know, I think maybe he thinks I'm about to
cry, and he's like, Why are youcrying?
And I'm like, I'm not crying.
Um and I probably was, in fact,about to cry, but out of sheer
spite, I'm gonna not cry now.
SPEAKER_02 (25:22):
Oh, nice.
That is good.
SPEAKER_00 (25:23):
Which is just healthy and great, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (25:25):
So there's a verse for this that might be helpful
to Nick.
1 Peter 3:7.
Likewise, husbands live withyour wives in an understanding
way, showing honor to the womanas the weaker vessel, since they
are heirs with you of the graceof life, so that your prayers
may not be hindered.
SPEAKER_00 (25:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:44):
There's two so that's in there.
Uh there's a since and a sothat.
Since they're heirs with you,and you're like, oh yeah, they
come alongside me, so that my myprayers may not be hindered if I
don't live with my wife in anunderstanding way.
So I think this is like theunderstanding way comes comes in
the there's gonna be a moreemotion, and honestly, that's a
good thing.
Like the emotions that a womanhas are great, and not all women
(26:08):
are wired this way.
But I think sometimes women liketo like to declare that they
don't have emotion, and usuallywhen they do that, that means
they're super emotional, theyjust don't regulate it well.
SPEAKER_00 (26:19):
And well, probably also avoidant, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (26:22):
Avoidant, yeah.
There we go.
Yeah, not in touch whatsoeverwith your emotions, and so like
they just comes over them in aneruption, and then it it's a lot
of frustration.
Now, on the flip side, men canbecome so dismissive, uh, you're
overreacting.
And so there is a there's athere's a middle ground here,
but I think this is why men arecalled to lead.
(26:44):
I think um when a man gives uphis authority uh or as the head
of the household and um is sortof saying, he's saying, I am now
not responsible for you.
It's now we're like, you know,oh, you made your own choice,
(27:05):
you made your own bed, go lie init.
I think that happens a lot withrelationships where we just sort
of live our lives in the samehome, but we're on our
individual tracks.
Whether whereas instead, if I'mresponsible for you to love,
nourish, cherish my wife in away that's honoring of her, that
where she has her needs met, heremotions are cared for, uh, and
(27:26):
I'm ten I'm tending to her in aloving way, it blesses a wife to
trust her husband more.
And I think this is part of theprocess for you guys.
SPEAKER_00 (27:37):
Yeah.
Because I like one of the reallygreat things about him that is
also simultaneously one of mybiggest challenges is he is
really good at pushing back.
And I have never had that kindof relationship with any man
(28:00):
ever.
SPEAKER_02 (28:01):
Like, what about your own dad?
Your dad doesn't push back?
SPEAKER_00 (28:04):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (28:05):
Do you just go, oh, this is the way it's gonna be?
SPEAKER_00 (28:06):
And he just like he he's just not even really
emotionally available.
SPEAKER_02 (28:12):
So So the fact that Nick just doesn't dismiss you
and also doesn't or he engageswith you.
SPEAKER_00 (28:20):
He does, he does.
Um the engaging is kind of rockystill because we're still
figuring each other out and howto communicate and stuff like
that.
And I have a I do have a reallyhard time like communicating in
the moment, like what I'mfeeling.
Like most of the time I'm justmad.
(28:42):
And anger is a secondaryemotion.
There's something else downthere's some wound down there.
This and it takes me a couple ofdays to figure out what that
second what that underlyingthing is.
SPEAKER_02 (28:54):
Wow.
So the whole I I'm losing myagency thing, yeah, were you
able to articulate that toyourself then or is that
something you processed?
SPEAKER_00 (29:00):
No, I I kind of uncovered that yesterday.
What a so like I, you know, theI was like, wow, I think like I
think what I'm feeling is a lossof agency.
Like that's what this feelslike.
I feel like I have no choice.
And like I said, like that's notactually true.
Um and and it kind of dawned onme, I was like, that submission
(29:22):
is is is is this like it'strusting the one you're
submitting to that they haveyour good in mind and that their
decision is in line with theLord's will.
Wow.
Um and my my thoughts and myfeelings and my opinions do
(29:42):
matter.
He's taken the time to hear meout, and he's taking all of that
into consideration when he makesthis decision, but ultimately,
like he's making the decisionfor us.
SPEAKER_02 (29:54):
Does that make you feel ultimately the fact that
you have a future husband?
That cares about the stuff thatyou care about, that matters.
That's a that's a one.
SPEAKER_00 (30:04):
And the fact that he's doing that now while we're
engaged, that's a big honk indeal.
Oh, yeah.
Because it means that he's he'slike setting, he's trying to set
himself, set us up now forsuccess later.
Yeah.
And like it's so true.
Like you when you play a sportsgame, you whatever it is, you
(30:30):
have weeks of practice beforethat.
SPEAKER_03 (30:33):
Nice.
SPEAKER_00 (30:33):
So you don't just like go into it without
practicing.
Fair enough.
And if you're cra if you'recrappy at practice, you're
probably not gonna do well atthe game.
SPEAKER_02 (30:41):
You speak truth, all right.
SPEAKER_00 (30:43):
I'm just saying, and like this is the same thing.
Like dating and engagement areare well, dating is an
evaluation, engagement is moreevaluating, but also like mostly
preparation for marriage.
SPEAKER_03 (30:56):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (30:56):
So if you're not doing it in engagement, wow, do
you think that marriage is gonnabe any different?
SPEAKER_02 (31:03):
It's good, it's really good.
SPEAKER_00 (31:04):
Because it's not.
SPEAKER_02 (31:06):
Way to go.
SPEAKER_00 (31:06):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (31:07):
That that's that's a lot of processing you've done.
SPEAKER_00 (31:10):
It's a lot of processing.
The past several days have been.
Oh, yeah, all the time.
SPEAKER_02 (31:14):
So, like, and I think this is where guys, uh, we
don't live in this world um forthe most part.
But it sounds like what I'velearned from my wife is that
she'll take something I said,she'll mull over three different
ways, put a bunch of differentmotives behind it, and go, like,
if you said if you meant it thisway, it means this.
If you meant it this way, itcould mean this.
And then I would just like, Iwant to go jump off a cliff if I
(31:34):
did that much mulling it over.
Uh, but so for you, as you'reyou're thinking about the
conversation, are you turning itover and over and over and over
again?
SPEAKER_00 (31:41):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (31:42):
So is it true then, perhaps if a husband makes a
decision the the that the wifeis not totally on board with
yet, that she'll probably turnit over a thousand more times
and might get to like on her ownwithout having to because
sometimes men can grind wherethose say it again and again in
three, five hundred differentways to make sure you get the
point, as opposed to land theplane, trust that you're gonna
(32:06):
think about it and walk away.
SPEAKER_00 (32:09):
Yeah, just trust that we're gonna think about it
because we are, whether you wantus to or not.
SPEAKER_02 (32:13):
Yeah, yeah.
So you might as well.
Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (32:16):
So, and that's you know, I and part of what I do,
especially when we have when wehave a fight, or if he says
something that kind of rubs methe wrong way, and I start to
think things about him.
Yeah.
I ask myself, like, well, isthat true of his character based
on what I've seen?
Um ninety-nine percent of thetime the answer is no.
SPEAKER_02 (32:39):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (32:40):
99% of the time, what I think he meant, what I
think he said, is not actuallywhat he meant.
It's not actually what he said.
SPEAKER_02 (32:50):
Um Do you ever remember wrong?
Meaning like he said, I want togo to McDonald's, and you heard,
I want to go to Wendy's.
And like all of a sudden, you'renow really upset about Wendy's
because you were promisedMcDonald's, and then you get
angry at him about whatever thething was that you remembered
(33:11):
wrong, and then he has to golike, I never said that.
I think or do you nail it on onon with your memory?
SPEAKER_00 (33:17):
I think he would say that I do that.
And I I probably do some of thetime, but I don't think that's
true all of the time.
SPEAKER_02 (33:26):
Because that might be the danger of mulling it over
a whole bunch, because if youmole over the wrong thing or
like you get a word wrong, oryeah, now you're thinking.
SPEAKER_00 (33:34):
Well, and like I need to go, I need to be better
about going back to him andclarifying, like, hey, I think
you said this.
Is that what you actually meant?
SPEAKER_03 (33:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:42):
Um, but doing that in a like in a neutral way is in
a way of curiosity as opposed toa way of accusing that.
SPEAKER_00 (33:50):
That's difficult.
SPEAKER_02 (33:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:52):
So, you know, there's that.
Um, but yeah, and and so whatI've learned is that wedding
planning is sanctifying.
SPEAKER_02 (34:01):
Very sanctifying.
Very all of marriage is actuallysanctifying.
SPEAKER_00 (34:03):
I have heard that about marriage.
Yes, yes.
But it also happens when you'replanning a wedding.
It doesn't matter.
I don't think it matters howmuch your wedding costs or how
big it is or where you have itor whatever.
Like the whole process, like Godis gonna find find a way to use
that to work out the sin in you,and it's gonna be painful.
SPEAKER_02 (34:26):
Yeah.
I guess my only piece of advice,just for your own sanity, is
pick a date soon.
Yeah, otherwise, it could flowtill forever, and you you're
you're fine right now becauseyou've only been engaged for how
long?
SPEAKER_00 (34:40):
Like two months almost.
SPEAKER_02 (34:42):
So you're two months in.
Month three hits are hits, andit's gonna feel like this is
forever.
And then when you don't have anactual date, and then it's like,
oh, we need to push it back toJanuary because you know
everything's booked, like Iwould I would jump on that.
So that's what I'm gonna do.
SPEAKER_00 (34:58):
Yeah, I think that's I think that's the plan.
Um we wanna we we are both likepretty in line with like we want
to get this checked off likepretty quickly.
So because once we do that, allof the other dominoes start to
kind of fall.
SPEAKER_02 (35:14):
Yep.
That it's gonna make all of yourlife a lot easier.
All right.
I want to go shift back to likewe what you said of like new
wave feminism.
Talk to me about like where likewhere does that term come from?
Uh and and give me some of yourthoughts on what it means.
SPEAKER_00 (35:31):
Yeah, I don't know if that is the like actual
technical term for it, but whenI think it's like third wave,
isn't third wave?
Third wave is is, I believe,what what happened in the like
sixties and seventies.
Right.
Like that's my mom's generation.
SPEAKER_02 (35:45):
So we're talking about the new wave, fourth wave,
perhaps.
SPEAKER_00 (35:47):
Seriously, yeah, maybe.
Um so it's what's going on rightnow where like the the really
big the really big thing thatpeople like to put on t-shirts
is like the future is female.
SPEAKER_02 (35:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:58):
And that scares the crap out of me.
Tell me why that is.
Um, you're forgetting half thepopulation.
SPEAKER_02 (36:05):
Fair enough, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:06):
Very important half of the population.
And like we need strong, strongmen.
And I'm not I'm not just talkingabout like strong, right?
It's like physically strong.
I mean like like likespiritually strong, mentally
strong providers who can who canbuild up and support a family, a
(36:32):
household, a nation, right,whatever.
Like the leaders that we have inthis country right now are
screwy.
Um, male, female, whatever.
They're all screwy.
And the problem with that isthat like the concept of
fatherhood is like was likelost.
SPEAKER_02 (36:52):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (36:53):
You know, and so you kind of see it coming back.
SPEAKER_02 (36:56):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:57):
Now for sure.
SPEAKER_02 (36:58):
I feel like like praise God.
We're having like a revolutionof men being like, all right,
I'm done.
Yeah.
I I I'm not in fact, here'swhat's wild.
This is going across like acrossthe spectrum of Christianity.
Young men are more active inchurch than young women by far.
And we see it in our churchclearly.
There's way more young men thanthere are young women.
(37:20):
Yeah.
And that's because I think menhave felt ostracized and
defeated by the culture.
And so they're gonna go the oneplace that says, hey, not only
do we accept you, we're callingyou to lead and be great and be
strong.
Um, I think you're right.
I think the the new wavefeminine feminism, or it is
fourth wave feminism, camearound in 2016 with really the
Me Too movement, was like reallythe Yeah.
(37:44):
And and then theirintersectionality were like
gender and race, and here'swhere I'm doubly disadvantaged,
and we're gonna take over.
Um and I think it's it's kind ofgot that's where you know toxic
masculinity got at its height oflike we are gonna fight back
against the evils of men andpatriarchy and all that.
SPEAKER_00 (38:04):
Yeah, well, and I will like I will say there is
such a thing as like toxicmasculinity or whatever.
That's a buzzword now, but butthere are like cultural concepts
for that, um, where but but it'susually where like cult like
culture, and I I don't mean likebig C culture, I mean like small
C culture within certainpopulations where like male
(38:27):
aggression and male violence hasbeen normalized.
SPEAKER_02 (38:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (38:32):
And like that's not what we want.
SPEAKER_02 (38:33):
I mean, we there's a whole t-shirt called a wife
beater.
Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (38:37):
Like it's that.
And and like that's not what theBible teaches.
Right.
That's not that's not anythinglike what I've seen.
The men in our church are someof the like like in a sense like
softest men that I've seen, butnot in like a when you go soft,
you can be like bambi pambi, butlike when you see them interact
(38:58):
with their wives or you see theminteract with their daughters,
like there is a softness, agentleness, yes, to them.
Um, but like, you know, whenthey interact with their sons,
like there's still a gentleness,but it's different.
And the fact that you can likedifferentiate that based on what
your child needs, what your wifeneeds, what your friends need,
(39:19):
you know, like I'm not gonna betough love with every friend
that I have, right?
But with some of them, I'm gonnabe like, get your crap together,
you're better than this.
SPEAKER_02 (39:26):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (39:27):
Um and I see a lot of the men in our church being
that way with kids and stuff.
And so that's reallyencouraging.
And to know that those are themen that are pouring into my
fiance is also reallyencouraging.
SPEAKER_02 (39:40):
Yeah, that's sweet.
So I think that just the I thinkwhat's happened since 2016,
really, whether that's the newwave or an extension of the
third wave, I think I thinkwhat's happened is just an
accelerant on the future isfemale, as opposed to this push
for equality, it's a push formatriarchy.
And what ends up happening isthings break down real fast
(40:05):
because men then sort of stepout and become ultra passive
when a woman is the head, andthat becomes a broken space,
whereas they become veryengaged, even to the point where
your fiance where they careabout stuff.
And I think in a in a spacewhere women have been sort of
like, This is my world, and I'mgonna do as I please, and you
(40:27):
need to sit over there and be inthe corner for having a man
engage is actually a wonderful,beautiful thing.
But everyone's gonna engage itdifferently.
Like I still think there couldmen could delegate in a sense
like, hey, whatever you want, Iwant to just support you in
making your dream wedding cometrue, and you know, whatever the
cost, you know, you know, youknow, like hey, great.
Um, but I do think there is thatthe transition of like men need
(40:51):
to kind of set the tone for thehome of like what what does
discipline look like?
What does love look like?
What does spiritual life looklike?
What is all those differentaspects that fall on the on the
man's responsibility before Godto really lead his family
through that?
Yeah, and that can be reallyhard, especially if you don't
have a um a family backgroundthat was that.
(41:13):
And so it can feel a little bitlike the blind leading the blind
a little bit, or maybe the thehusband following her wife's
lead who did have something likethat.
Yeah, and now all of a sudden hefeels like, oh, I don't know
enough to make a decision,whatever you want to do.
And I think there comes a partwhere um people who don't know
have have uh the onus, men whodon't know, to to lead.
(41:34):
And you're allowed to ask yourwife, but then form an opinion
and a conviction based on theword of God to then lead your
family.
SPEAKER_00 (41:41):
Yeah.
So I I'm studying to be acounselor.
Yeah.
And so learning about humangrowth and development and all
of that stuff and differentforms of discipline and stuff.
I also have a lot of experienceworking with kids.
Yeah.
Um, and and Nick doesn't, andhe's acknowledged that.
And but like when it comes toraising kids, I like what you're
(42:01):
saying.
Like, I can give himinformation.
And it's the same thing that Iwould do with the parents of a
of a minor client.
Like, I can give you all of thisinformation so that you then can
make an informed decision.
But like you are ultimately thischild's parents, and like I'm
going to respect your decision.
Now, if it's abusive, that'sdifferent.
SPEAKER_02 (42:21):
But call the cops.
SPEAKER_00 (42:23):
Right.
That's that's a different story.
You know, we're not gonnatolerate that.
Um but but like ultimately Ihave to trust that these these
parents know their own childbetter than I do.
Um they made this childtogether.
In some cases, they've adoptedthem, they know their history
way better than I do.
(42:43):
They have a more intimateknowledge of that child.
And so I have to trust thatthey're doing the right thing,
even though I even with givingthem all this knowledge.
And so it's the same thing in Ithink in this husband-wife
relationship, where like, okay,I'm you're almost basically a
trad wife now.
Woo!
SPEAKER_02 (43:05):
I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (43:06):
I mean, like this is you know, I I between the two of
us, I'm the expert on children,right?
But like ultimately, like hemakes we do the I mean, this is
not only just in marriages.
SPEAKER_02 (43:19):
We do this all the time.
Like, no boss has all theinformation.
You take the information from asubordinate unit, like when the
army, and be like, hey, a scoutsaid something on the ground,
I'm gonna based on hisinformation, I still have to
make the decision.
He can make a recommendation,but I make a decision.
Um and I and I think what you'retalking about is the same sort
of deal where what the hard partfor a woman who probably knows
(43:43):
in her knows what's best, andthen her husband makes a wrong
call, she still has to kind ofexecute, and that's hard.
SPEAKER_00 (43:52):
So, yes, Leah Brown said something a while ago that
I thought was really wise.
SPEAKER_02 (44:02):
Leah is a very wise woman.
SPEAKER_00 (44:03):
Leah is one of the wisest people that I know.
Um, she's also a very strongpersonality, she's a very strong
personality, but she does givespace for her husband to lead
their family.
SPEAKER_02 (44:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (44:13):
And one of those things.
SPEAKER_02 (44:14):
We have a lot of strong personalities at our
church.
SPEAKER_00 (44:16):
One of the things that she said is they were
trying to make a decision aboutsomething, and she had given him
his her opinion or thoughts orwhatever.
And she was like, but ultimatelyhe's gonna be the one that has
to stand before the Lord andaccount for his leadership in
our family.
Nice.
And I was like, Man, you'reright.
Like, like, because he's theleader, he will be held
(44:36):
accountable for his leadership.
And so if he makes the wrongdecision, it's not on me, it's
not on our kids, it's on him.
Yeah, and that is that's theburden of leadership.
Um, and that I look, that'sscary.
Like, if I'm being reallyhonest, I don't want that for
myself.
(44:56):
Like, I don't envy that burden,and so I'm really grateful that
I'm marrying someone who hasalready stepped into that role.
Hey, way to go.
SPEAKER_02 (45:06):
Like, like I said, it's it's a super challenge,
engagement's hard.
I recommend short ones.
Uh, but even if you go long, itway to go.
It's it's it's it's it's anarduous task, put a date out
there and and then kind of setyour goal, set as sights on the
goal to make decisions togetherultimately.
Hey, listen, if you've got anyquestions, you can text us at
(45:28):
737-231-0605.
We would love to hear from you.
Uh, one of our favorite thingsis to answer your questions
about faith, culture, everythingin between.
Any other thoughts there,Nicole, on state of feminism?
SPEAKER_00 (45:40):
You know, just really grateful I got to talk to
you about this.
SPEAKER_02 (45:43):
Yeah, it's super fun.
Hey, we'll see you next time.
Go ahead, push back somedarkness, and have an awesome
week of worship.
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