September 18, 2025 • 45 mins
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Pastor Plek and guest co-host Ruben Campos from Lifeway navigate the challenging intersection of faith and politics in an increasingly polarized world. They explore how Christian leaders should respond to political violence, cultural controversies, and personal questions of faith in everyday life.
• Discussion of the Charlie Kirk assassination attempt and whether pastors should address political events from the pulpit
• Examination of how Christian leaders can maintain biblical truth while acknowledging political tensions
• Reflection on accusations of racism against public figures and how to evaluate such claims fairly
• Analysis of the relationship between religious belief and political engagement throughout scripture
• Exploration of how pastors can lead congregations through divisive political moments
• Discussion on whether "celebrity crushes" are compatible with Christian relationships and marriage
• Consideration of when admiration crosses into idolatry and objectification
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec,along with my co-host today is
ruben campos.
You work at lifeway.
Yeah, lifeway christianity.
We love lifeway, so lifeway ispretty great, and so we are so
excited to have him on boardwith us today.
We've got a couple questionsthat we have been dealing with.
Uh, one, especially in light ofthe Charlie Kirk assassination
(00:28):
which we found out about.
We were sitting right here lastweek when that came up and so I
want us to talk about it.
It was one of those things.
We were watching the eventsunfold right here and we almost
went live with it, but it waslike, ah, it's too raw, too, too
crazy, and I was like I don'tknow how I'm able to process
that.
Our church did say somethingabout it on Sunday and I think
(00:51):
that you know there's a lot oftakes on that.
There's a lot of debate amongstpastor world.
Should you or should you notsay something about Charlie Kirk
?
I don't know if you knew thatthat was a thing.
Yeah, yeah, I've seen quitequite a bit of that going back
and forth online, so I have seenthat, yeah, and so on the one
(01:11):
hand, you had a lot ofcommunities that had felt really
hurt by Charlie Kirk and a lotof his.
He's a provocateur.
I mean, he definitely was youknow, you know, prove me wrong,
but then and so he had like hehad that sort of mentality, but
then at the same time he hadguys like me.
I really appreciated his workand would watch it regularly and
(01:36):
really thought he was gracefulat sharing the gospel and
although he'd come with an icehat, he was able when he got
into a dialogue with somebody.
It wasn't personal attack, itwas policy, ideology, debate,
and I really thought that thatwas awesome.
So I know that there was a lotthere and so pastors were kind
(02:00):
of in this debate aspect ofshould we say something, should
we not say something?
For sure, yeah, and so it waskind of a wild, wild deal.
What was your thought on that?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Yeah, I mean generally speaking I think you
touched on a lot of points there, but just in regards, for
instance as a starting pointkind of the way that he opened
up his platform yeah, I meanjust starting there.
You talk about, you know,whether he was doing policy or
espousing some sort of ideology.
The fact of the matter is thathe always did give an
(02:33):
opportunity for others ofopposing views to come and speak
.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
And he gave a mic and a full like 15 minutes to go
for it.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I've watched countlessvideos at this point and I find
myself at times struggling tothink could I do that?
Could I be as gracious as hewas during that conversation,
when they're berating him andyelling him down.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
One of my favorite ones is when an old guy came up
and said I want to duel, I wantto fist fight you, yes.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
And he's like no, the Holy Spirit sent me the Holy.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Spirit, that's right.
The Holy Spirit, that's right.
The Holy Spirit sent me this byyou, which I was like okay.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah.
So I think one of the importantthings to like kind of like
sort of wean out of this is theidea of tensions, right, you
know we're talking about.
You know, should churches getbehind this sort of thing?
Should pastors?
Should they mention it?
Should they not?
Right?
And you know he was a politicalideologue and, at the same time
(03:28):
, a believer, and so like, wheredo we draw the line?
You know, and I'm a proponentof and this is something I
learned, like listening to JohnPiper all the time he's always
talking about man.
If you're going to be aChristian, you have to be able
to maintain tensions, right?
And I think this is one ofthose moments where this is not
a biblical tension, but this isa tension in reality, in life.
(03:49):
You know he was a politicalfigure, but he was also a
believer and held to Christianvalues, and so I think there's a
place there in the middle wherewe can say, to a degree,
there's things that areacceptable and there's other
things that we should probablysteer clear of.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
But in regards to, you know, I mean certainly
well-wishing his wife and hischildren and things like that,
and pastors acknowledging anevent of this size on a global
scale, I tend to think there'snothing inappropriate about that
, yeah, yeah, and especiallysince, like I think you know,
during the George Floyd things,you had to say something like
(04:24):
hey, somebody died and that'ssad, and I don't think that
police officer woke up that daythinking I'm going to go kill
somebody.
But you know, ultimately it wasa lament towards the death of
someone and it was on such apublic thing.
And one of the things I've sortof learned and maybe I learned
this like late in my pastoral,in 20, so like four years in, in
(04:48):
2016, donald Trump was electedand, um, I was like it was also
Veterans Day weekend, so thatSunday morning I focused on
Veterans Day and I didn't sayanything about Trump and I had
several people angry I, I meanlike just fired up angry at me
Like how could you not sayanything?
(05:10):
Why would you be silent aboutthis?
You know this is the worstthing for our country and I was
like you know, it's actually notthat bad, it's actually pretty
great.
Uh, you know it's actually notthat bad, it's actually pretty
great.
Yeah, um, yeah and and so that.
But that was one thing I didn'trealize, like how I thought me
not saying anything at all waslike I don't want to, I don't
(05:32):
want to inflame anyone on theleft and I don't want to, like
um, over exalt him anywhere onthe right, and I was like, okay,
I think that's the right answer.
And um, clearly, that was Imean I, I had, I had some people
super angry anyway, uh, andyou're not gonna make everybody
happy.
So what I realized is likesaying something is better than
(05:52):
saying nothing, and and I,because, like, people want to be
led through that and I was like, okay, so next time around
2020,.
When Joe Biden was elected, Isaid, hey, god has the person he
wants on the throne.
This did not get past his will,and some people feel like this
(06:13):
is glorious.
Finally, we have somebody ofcommon sense and practicality.
Is it going to say anythingstupid?
On Twitter?
And then other people that werejust angry Complete opposite
Twitter and then other otherpeople that were just like angry
and like it was as if the samevisceral reaction from 2016.
Hence the polarization ofpolitics.
I just don't know if I've seenpeople feel this drastically,
(06:38):
wildly awful.
Maybe this is true, maybe thisis the part where that I just
haven't been paying attention,um, or I wasn't old enough to
figure it out, but I don't know.
Like it didn't feel like whenGeorge Bush won in 2000,.
Like it was like you know, wewon the Superbowl.
It just like oh cool, you knowhe, you know he seems like he
(06:59):
loves Jesus, that's great.
Wasn't as volatile Right, itjust wasn't.
And Clinton before that, eventhough there was scandal galore,
it was just like all right,yeah, okay, okay.
So then in 2020, with Bidenwinning, and then all of a
sudden, or sorry, before that,you have the George Floyd stuff,
(07:20):
yeah, and we had to saysomething about that, like, hey,
this, you know so.
And then to Biden, then again,trump wins.
It's like we got to saysomething, and so I think this
is where pastors um it, it's animpossible job, as you know uh,
is that you've got to leadpeople in the congregation, uh,
sort of understand, there'severybody at every political
(07:42):
spectrum and um, and you want tomake sure that people are heard
and felt and all the things,except we also have to lead them
towards the direction of hopeand peace.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Yeah, absolutely yeah , I agree a hundred percent.
And I think there's this kindof and I don't think it's a
biblical notion, but there'sthis concept, um, in in science
of Noma, non-overlappingmagisteria, right, and it's, you
know, we don't overlap theconcepts of science and
Christianity, right, they don'tcombine, right, they're not on
(08:17):
the same level, that sort ofthing, right?
So you seek to kind of shiftthose things apart, this
non-overlapping magisteria, andpeople have the same idea in
regards to religion and politics, right.
But I would say, man, if youtake a hard look at scripture
now, I'm not saying the pulpitshould ever become a platform
for politics, but it's hard forme to look at scripture and not
(08:39):
see the marriage, so often,between politics and religious
belief, right, and so, whetherit was Solomon or David, whether
it was Nehemiah, whether, youknow, it was John who's talking
about Herod, or Jesus talkingabout the Pharisees, and while
they were religious leaders,they were highly involved in
politics.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
And so there's certainly from a biblical
perspective, I think there'splenty of ground to say, hey,
it's okay and not inappropriate.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Right, even what you said about science.
I mean science and religioncross all the time when we talk
about the way the brain is madeor the way that you process
emotions.
I mean, in fact, this week wetalked about, you know,
overcoming fear.
This next week we're talkingabout overcoming sadness, and
(09:27):
there's a part of it.
There's, you know, depression'sa thing and real Bible
characters experience it, and so, you know, there's a science of
the brain.
So I think that, no matter what, as a pastor you're going to
kind of cross over so manydifferent I don't know if
vocation is the right word butdisciplines, so many different
disciplines that you're.
(09:47):
It's not that you need to beknowledgeable about everything,
but just understanding thatthere's going to be something
that you're going to say thatmight offend or affect all these
different disciplines, which iswhy a lot of guys pastors use
sports illustrations, becauseusually they're not offensive.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
But, you know, it's great that you bring that up in
regards to disciplines of lifeand because the reality is, how
many times, if you go to achurch website and you go to
values and missions and theytalk about scripture, and they
talk about scripture being theirultimate source for truth in
all the faith in life, right?
Well, if it's for all the faithin life, then surely we should
(10:24):
be able to talk about, you know,things that are happening on a
global scale, politically rightAgain to a degree, right, right,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
And I mean I feel like you know you don't?
Yeah, I think so.
So here's a question that cameup that sparked all this Should
a church really be standingbehind a man like Charlie Kirk?
I know he claims to be aChristian and follows all
Christian nationalist talkingpoints to a T, but does he
really exhibit Christian fruit?
When I look at the latestYouTube videos, they are labeled
(10:53):
things like Charlie Kirk handsout L's.
Charlie Kirk sends someone intoa mental breakdown and other
things that he is obviouslyshowing disdain to people who
don't look like him or believelike him.
He obviously likes to bedivisive more on political
points than Christian points, soit just seems weird to make an
Instagram post for him.
So, um, yeah, I, if, if, if allCharlie Kirk was was like, was
(11:16):
like just a, uh, instagraminfluencer yeah, we would.
He wouldn't be the news.
Yeah, we would, he wouldn't bethe news.
I mean, he's still in the.
I mean like he's in.
It's a 24 7 news cycle, so Idon't think saying nothing is
appropriate.
Yeah, and now are there somethings that charlie kirk may
have, may have done.
Maybe he was a provocateur.
He was like let me, let me, youknow, dig you, but the things
(11:37):
that you watch, like he did, hehad stuff of like watch charlie
kirk dismantle this, yeah, andyou're like okay, and I
sometimes watch his opponent andI watched it.
I'm like that wasn't actuallythat crushing, it was actually
kind of tame, yeah, should wepunish people for clickbait?
yes, listen, did he clickbait mea million times?
(11:58):
Yes, but did I actually enjoy alot of the stuff he did?
Absolutely so, yeah, do I wantto punish someone for clickbait?
No, everyone's got to make aliving somehow.
But I think because I thinkthat's where the real problem
with him would be is on theclickbait.
I thought whenever he talked orspoke it was really well spoken
, he was really articulate and Idon't like.
(12:18):
A lot of times people thoughtof him as a racist, which I
thought was sort of wild,because one of his best friends
was like candace owen and I'mnot like I'm not all out candace
owens fan, I mean, yeah forsure issues, for sure, I mean
tons of issues topic for anotherday.
I mean, like I feel like shejust said something about
charlie kirk really wanted to becatholic and I was like okay, I
mean, anyway, it's like, whywould you even say that?
Yeah, uh, but, uh.
(12:39):
But clearly we were talkingbefore talking about some of the
things that he did for theblack community, that it was
unique yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
So so, real quick, before I jump into that, I would
recommend to uh the questioneror anybody else who's kind of
questioning this, this, um, thisidea that that charlie kirk may
have been racist, um to youknow, when you're searching, uh,
rather than just just lookingat what comes into your feed,
you know, can ask questions tosearch engines, right.
So if you're on YouTube, youcan say was Charlie Kirk a
(13:08):
racist?
And you'll see a plethora ofvideos coming up from his black
supporters, his black fan base,right, saying that's crazy,
right.
Here's why you know.
And so some of those videos maybe helpful to people who are
looking for more answers andmaybe wanting to hear as well
from a minority group, right,what they thought about it.
And I say that as a Caucasianman, but I'm Cuban and Mexican,
(13:31):
right.
And so a lot of times peoplewill be like oh, you're saying
that because you're a white guy,right.
But I know very well, growingup in a Spanish household with
two immigrant parents, what it'slike to have, you know,
prejudice leveled against you.
Wait, but you do, you speak youspeak Spanish?
Yes, I do.
Do you also speak Portuguese?
I do, I speak Portuguese aswell, so I learned.
I learned Portuguese dating agirl in a Brazilian church.
(13:51):
So that's, but I'll tell you itcame to me after a couple of
months.
It just clicked.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Okay, wow, that's wild.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
So so yeah.
But going back to Charlie Kirkand whether or not he was a
racist, a couple of things, likeyou mentioned his friendship
and partnership with CandaceOwens, who he traveled literally
all 50 states with touringcampuses, touring different
conference centers, and globallyas well for years and years,
(14:22):
and his tight friendships withOfficer Tatum, who's another guy
who speaks very highly of him.
No-transcript in our nation'scapital's history and it was put
(14:49):
together by Charlie Kirk, right, yeah so, whatever you have to
say about him, he's not racist.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
I think that would have been super clear.
You may disagree with himideologically, which then gets
us to the next point, and here'swhat the person kind of wrote a
subsequent text in.
She said nevermind, I prayedabout it, and even though the
intentional race baiting doeslead to a harder life for my
children and myself, it makes menot like or respect him.
(15:15):
I can't debase, or I can't basemy disdain for another
Christian over something that isa non-salvation issue, and
shouldn't lose respect foranother Christian who obviously
values the gospel and spreadingit, probably better than me,
even if he chooses to race bait.
And so I don't know about therace baiting per se, although if
what you mean is, like you know, throwing out L's and I again
(15:35):
the click bait drove me crazy,um, but what I, what I do want
to say is uh, is that we're?
We see that you're going tohave secondary issues.
I think I put this here.
Watch this If I believe thathuman beings are made in the
image of God and that God lovesall people, that makes it into a
(15:57):
primary issue.
Like you've damaged the imageof God when you say, like God
has a second class of humanbeing, absolutely.
I mean, is that okay to putthat into the primary issue?
I don't want to be overly crazyabout it.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
I would still make a distinction between what it
looks like.
Our questioners ask likesalvific issue versus, but I
would still say a primary issue.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
So it might not be a salvific issue, but maybe a
primary issue for, like, being apart of a church or whatever
would be like, hey, if you can'twrap your head around God's
love for all people and youthink like that someone is worth
less because of what their skincolor, culture, background is,
then clearly you are not able tosee what Christ has done on the
(16:45):
cross and that his value forthe humans that he created, and
you're not seeing the Imago Deiin people.
So I think we would go there.
So this is the part I said whatplace should we draw?
And I think the question is,like man, I feel like some of
this stuff is problematic for meand I don't know what it like.
Let's take it's not the racething, let's just move off that.
(17:05):
Let's say, his position onimmigration.
Yeah, um, how are Christians toargue and argue, maybe reason?
I know argue seems like astrong word, but I feel like you
know you have a position, Ihave a position.
Let's argue about it and workit out.
Yeah, like, how are Christianssupposed to do that in a way in
a public square that gets theirposition heard, without being
(17:28):
called a fascist or beingmurdered for it.
I think that's the, that's theissue that I feel like uh, has
been brought up nationwide andand honestly I feel like
recently Pam Bondi, the AG, hasyou know, they're going to call
all the speech of everyone thatwas sort of against Charlie Kirk
or just like hate speech, andI'm like whoa, I mean, this is
(17:49):
where I'm like I don't want usto go to this place where we're
just like what are we doing Now?
I agree that this might be thepart.
This is a place where you knowGod and government has a
relationship, god and the churchhas a relationship, god and the
family has a relationship.
God and the church has arelationship, god and the family
has a relationship, and thatmight be a great place for the
church to step in and say, hey,you shouldn't talk like that.
(18:10):
But I don't know if that's the.
Anyway, I would love to hearyour thoughts on that.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yeah, I haven't heard what she mentioned on this so
I'm not familiar with it, butI'm certainly.
I'm for less classified speechas hate speech, right, I don't
want more of that.
I think we should have less ofthat.
But the challenge there becomes, like you mentioned, how can we
do that and still remain safe?
Right, how can we have thesesorts of conversations and
(18:36):
dialogues where quote unquotealleged hate speech is being
shared and still, you know, bein a place and a position?
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Here's what she said there's free speech and then
there's hate speech and there'sno place, especially now, in our
society.
We will absolutely target you,go after you.
If you're targeting anyone, ifyou are targeting anyone with
hate speech, anything, andthat's across the aisle.
And then, after that backlash,she clarified by hate speech she
meant speech that crosses theline into threats of violence,
(19:06):
which she says is not protectedby the first amendment.
Well, of course that I agreewith that.
I agree with that.
I agree with.
The problem is words havemeaning and like look up the
dictionary what is thedefinition of hate speech?
And I don't know if we don'thave you know.
This is why Webster invented Ithink we were talking about this
morning on Bible study.
Webster invented the Bible sowe'd know what words meant.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah, the dictionary.
Yeah, sorry, Sorry.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Yeah, he invented the dictionary so we'd know what
words mean.
Yes, yeah, anyway, that's whereI look at this whole thing and
I'm like what is?
And I feel like there is nocommon, universally accepted
definition.
So therefore you can callanything hate speech and
everyone's like, well, that's mydefinition.
Anyway, get into what is awoman, next thing?
You know?
Okay, so, anyway, so, all right, so we understand there's a
(19:49):
difference, so what?
And I feel like you've really,especially being at Lifeway
where you guys have to kind ofthink through a lot of this
stuff.
Yeah, because it's not likeChristians are monolithic, like
they only vote for Republicans,and so there is a part of this.
Even talking about Charlie Kirkin any sort of positive way has
(20:09):
a negative effect on people.
And what is the?
You know, what's the Christianresponse?
The right one?
I feel like here's the partthat's hard.
What's the right Christianresponse when someone's coming
at it like you're supporting,like a, a person who hates
immigrants, or you know, yourperson hates people, you know,
and you may think it's right,wrong or indifferent, but
(20:30):
they're coming with such stronglanguage and now, all of a
sudden, it's a polemic and Ithink there's a place for a
logical debate between believers.
Understand that there's a lovefor one another.
That's understood.
But I think what happens a lotof time?
We don't have that.
Where do you think the line isdrawn on how we do that?
Well, the line is drawn on howwe do that.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Well, you know, I think, for me, the line, I think
that the line is drawn inregards to not allowing fear to
be the motivation for what tostop.
Right, right, like I think thatyou know.
If so, there's a component oftruth, right, I always want to
be conveying truth, at least tothe best of my ability.
(21:06):
But the other part is, I thinkthat if I'm ever feeling
prohibited or inhibited fromsharing a truth because I'm
scared of what the repercussionmight be, right, oh well, you
know, if you do that, you'lllose this many followers, or,
you know, people will stopcoming to your restaurant, that
sort of thing.
I go back to what is it?
Martin Luther, I think thewhole here I stand, you know,
(21:28):
like that sort of thing.
I think as Christians, we haveto be able to take a stance on
things that are true, right, andI think that, whatever the cost
for that is and I think Charliewas doing that I think that's
actually going back to Charlie.
You know he was taking a stance.
You know, despite the obviousdangers that were present in him
(21:50):
doing so, I'm putting aside hispolitical views, just doing
what he was doing when he wasespousing Christian views on
campuses, primarily very liberalcampuses.
He was putting himself in aplace of danger, but he
determined that, hey, I'm goingto take a stand for what's true
and share that without fear, andso I think, as Christians,
that's something we should bedoing as well.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
So here's kind of the pushback I'm seeing.
It goes something like this howcan you stand up for one man,
charlie Kirk, when you're notstanding up for all the genocide
in the Gaza?
And I think that becomes a soupin like.
Why, really?
A lot of like.
There's all these thingshappening globally.
Yeah, you're not sayinganything about that.
But why are you sayingsomething about?
(22:33):
I mean, at least that's whatI've been seeing Like that was
one of the ones that popped upor why, why, you don't care
about the.
There was a governor.
That was a Minnesota, notgovernor.
It was, um, I think their stateshoot speaker of the house or
something.
Minnesota though, right, yeah,minnesota's like state
government lady.
That, which is terrible.
(22:54):
I don't know her name.
She was killed, right, she wasmurdered.
She was essentially assassinatedfor her political views, and
that's you know.
I didn't even know that untilthe Charlie Kirk thing came up
to be fair.
And you know it's not mynewsfeed.
It might be, because you knowguess where my newsfeed is.
(23:14):
You know it's the echo chamberof all the stuff I want to hear,
which is, you know, not great,but it is what it is, and so
clearly we need to kind ofthat's wrong.
You should not murder somebodybecause they have a different
view than you.
In fact, even if they have adifferent view, let the
government handle that.
Like you, don't need to takethis vigilante justice.
(23:35):
Even if you think that persondid something that deserved
death, well, even then, you'vegot to let the government handle
it.
The king doesn't bear the swordfor nothing, it's his to bear.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Absolutely For something like see, I've been
hearing this a lot and I reallytry my best to go towards and
lean into simple, plain,understandable responses.
Right, everything doesn't haveto be hyper-politicized.
Right, and so she was apolitician, she was assassinated
, right.
Right Now is it super complexto understand the difference
(24:06):
between what happened to her andwhat happened to Charlie?
Personally, I don't think so,right, from what you're saying
right now.
Right, out of sight is out ofmind.
Yeah, that's not a theologicalpremise, that's not a political
premise, that's just a commonsense thing.
I've never seen her before,I've never heard her.
I'm devastated.
I hate to hear that she waskilled.
(24:29):
That's horrid, right, butCharlie Kirk was somebody I
heard.
I followed his career for eightyears.
I saw his star rise.
Right, I was also invested inhis positions.
Right, and so all of thesethings lend themselves to,
individually, to me having agreater response to what
happened to Charlie than to her.
Now, when you multiply that bymillions of people who had the
(24:50):
same experience as I did, right,in regards to those two
individuals, it's not, it's notchallenging to understand why
there wasn't such an uproar.
That's not to say of, that'snot a value statement, that her
life was worth less at all.
That's not a value proposition,that's just a a simple, you
know, common sense.
Hey, like this individualwasn't in the limelight.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
So Melissa Horbin, that's who it was, melissa
Horbin.
She was murdered on June 14th,which it's wild, I mean sad in
some ways right, but she didn'thave the.
I'm sure you know there'sprobably murders that happen
every day and each human life isindividually valuable, and that
is absolutely wrong.
(25:30):
It is killing the Imago Dei,which that's how God chose to
represent himself on the planet.
It was like I mark my territorywith human beings and when you
slay one of those, it's likeerasing a tag from the gang,
like you have done irreparabledamage and your life is required
of that.
If you murder somebody, whichis sort of wild, okay, yeah, so
(25:53):
yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
So, yeah, go ahead.
A simple thought experience foranybody who's watching to do is
just to just consider your ownparents yeah, a sibling.
Right, how you feel if you losea sibling.
You get news that your brother,your sister, your cousin, your
aunt, your uncle has passed away, someone that you were close to
.
It's devastating.
If you hear news about someonein a foreign country, far off in
(26:18):
a way that you have no ideaabout the cousin, uncle, aunt of
somebody else, you're not goingto feel the same way, right,
and so it's on just a simplepremise.
It's that easy to understand.
Obviously it more complexbecause there's there's added
components to it, but I thinkit's.
You know, when we begin tobreak it down like that, it
becomes a little easier tocomprehend.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Um, okay, so I think we hammered that, but I think
there's so much politically,globally.
I mean, we could talk tariffsand how.
What does you know?
What does Jesus say about that?
You know, I mean, I don'treally.
You know, this is where thegovernment has its own autonomy,
in some ways to govern as itsees fit on stuff like tariffs
(27:00):
and what's the best thing forour country?
You know, interest rates,what's the best?
thing Fed's cut rates yeah right, yeah, quarter point cut today.
Thank you, uh, drum pal,something you know like.
So I think there, there's,there's, there's, that, that's
like there's so much going on.
I think what was hard for me in2020 is it felt like every day
(27:20):
there was a new crisis, yeah,and and then I would.
I would be criticized for notreacting fast enough, but then
I'd react and I'd find out moreinformation.
That wasn't exactly like what Ithought it was, yeah, and that
became such a um, I just feltlike a slingshot, just a
pendulum, just super fast, justnot knowing how to handle each
(27:41):
and everything.
And I feel like, honestly Ithink I've said this before I
was not prepared theologicallyfor the anthropological
arguments of, like, what's myargument about man race, uh,
gender?
Yeah, I think I I'd done a goodjob of understanding um on my
(28:01):
own, like sexuality andhomosexuality, and I I was able
to articulate that very well.
I felt good about that.
But when it came to 2020, Ithink I was weak on
understanding a logicalunderstanding of how human
beings are made in the image ofGod and how to punish one set of
(28:23):
humans for the pain of anotherwas just sort of an off thing to
do.
Yeah, that, that honestly, itwouldn't be off biblically, if
you kind of say, like you know,I will.
They will pay for their sins,for the to the third and fourth
generation, but I'll show mylove to the thousandth
generation.
However, when we get to Ezekiel, that shifts and you see that
(28:45):
each man will die for his ownsin.
Yeah, shifts and you see thateach man will die for his own
sin, which is sort of aninteresting shift theologically,
anthropologically, because asyou look at man, how are they to
take on sin and how do theypass it forward?
And are you now responsible forthe sins of your forefathers?
And what we've clearly seen islike no, you aren't.
(29:06):
Would, would you agree withthat?
I would agree a hundred percentwith that, and I don't think I,
I don't think I was preparedAgain, that that came from a lot
of reading.
I think Votie Bauckham was oneof the guys I read.
That would just really help me.
I also read all the other stuffof what was a crazy one, that
um gosh, uh, that, uh, fragilefragile white fragility, white
(29:30):
fragile.
I read white fragility and thenI did a lot of Ibrahim Kendi,
read all his stuff, and I waslike, um, it helped see that
there was, there wasn't abiblical bias, it was just a
oppressed oppressor, yeah, andit was a regurgitation of a
Marxist doctrine, which I wasn't.
I don't know if I would havebeen able to see that prior to
(29:51):
that, but I was like, oh, you'vejust put everybody in this
class and they have to be inconstant repentance for their
existing because of what theylook like.
And that, to me, was like isn'tthat exactly what we want to
get away from?
Yeah, all right.
So I know we probably went waydown a rabbit hole and probably
people tuned out by now.
(30:11):
Okay, but I do want to say,like, whenever, like if you are
in a political minority in achurch I don't know if that's if
, like, your pastor is more bentto the right or if he's more
bent to the left and he sayssomething that you don't agree
with, I think that's a greattime to have the conversation.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yeah, absolutely I think.
So.
One of the things you pointedout earlier was just the when
you were, when the 2020, I thinkyou were saying you were just
getting bombarded weekly.
I mean, all of us were, we werejust.
You know, we're havingquestions every week and while
we mentioned at the onset of theconversation that, I think we
both agreed that, yes, these arethings that the pastors should
(30:52):
engage, should talk about.
I don't think there's anyquestion there.
I think the question is youknow, how do we determine which
things to talk about?
Because, honestly, like you'resaying, if we're paying
attention to the media and tothe things going on around us,
there's no lack of new thingsbeing poured in every day that
we can address right, and so,like, I'll toss that back to you
(31:14):
and I'll say you know, whenpastors are being bombarded
leaders so often church leadersby different things that are
coming in, how do youdistinguish?
Yeah, I think that's good.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Yeah, I feel like I so.
For example, I know this isterrible.
I don't.
I know this is terrible.
I don't think I even reallyknew about the Colorado shooting
Okay, like I think that washappened just before this and
the stabbing on the New York thetrain.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
North Carolina, north Carolina.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
See, I didn't even know that happened.
So, like, that's where I'm tobe caught up on everything.
In fact, I I'm to be caught upon everything.
In fact, I think Charlie Kirkwas actually calling for pastors
to mention the Ukrainian womanand her story on Sunday mornings
, and I'm not sure what his callto action was, but I know that
(32:01):
he said something and I missedthat one, and so at some point
I've become okay with not beingattached to my phone to stare at
, to get updates all the time.
In fact, um, you know thatsocial was it called the social
network or something like thatwas like, um, not the one about
(32:21):
how facebook was invented, butthe one about the documentary
about, like, how the algorithmswork.
No, I'm not all right, sothey're.
Essentially, this documentarygoes the algorithms work to kind
of make you you're the customerand you're going to repeat and
they're going to try and get youto.
You know, do their?
Oh, yes, I, I, I think I doremember, so, so I after I saw
that I intentionally went andmessed up my algorithm, so I
don't know anybody on myFacebook.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
How'd it work out?
It worked out great.
I don't know anything.
It's like it's just a bunch ofrandom people I don't care about
.
So I put it down and every nowand then I'll post something
like I care about and I'll gointo it, but like I don.
If it comes to me two or threetimes, then I'm probably like
yeah, or if it's something Ialready genuinely already know
(33:16):
about a lot of us, I just didn'tknow like yeah, the Colorado
there's.
I hate to say, math shootingshave become so commonplace, but
I think it it was a shooting andI just didn't get the details.
I heard there was a shooting.
I wasn't really sure it was ashooting that already happened.
It't get the details.
I heard there was a shooting.
I wasn't really sure it was ashooting that already happened.
It's almost regurgitating, butanyway, that was.
I think that's the problem.
There's so much that that giveyour pastor grace on what he
(33:38):
knows doesn't know a whole storyAt the same time, you don't
need to send him, you don't needto do the research for him,
because that gets reallyannoying, although I appreciate
that you work so hard.
Okay, but yeah, I think wecovered that.
All right, we're going to shifthere to something not intense,
(33:59):
a little less serious.
Yeah, all right, everyone justchill out for a sec.
All right, this is from anotherperson.
I thought it'd be fun to have acouple's conversation about
Hollywood crushes.
Is it okay to have them?
Why or why not?
Uh, my boyfriend and I had thisconversation and we have
different opinions on this topic.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
I'd love to hear what you think.
Yeah, the topic of crushes.
So I think we I I don't know ifit was today or last week, but,
um, I think it was this morning.
Actually, we're talking aboutdefining terms.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
You probably had brought up Webster right, yeah,
webster's Dictionary, notWebster's Bible.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Yeah, and so I think that, to get to even like start
this conversation, let's justlike define what a crush is
right, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
So, yeah, let's see what you pull up there.
Hold on, I did pull it up, letme see if I can find it here.
Okay, here we go.
Crush Intense.
Yeah, this is okay, all right.
First, is it admiration oridolatry?
All right, it's natural toadmire someone's beauty, talent
(35:02):
or charisma.
But if a crush is idolatry,placing that person to a place
of worship or ultimate devotionor obsession, who dominates your
thoughts and desires?
Or or is it a fantasy?
Like I get a hall pass, if Iever, you know, if I ever meet
my, my celebrity, uh, I get to,you know, have a night with them
(35:24):
, and that is your gift to me,cause that'll probably never
happen, but just in case it does, I don't want to ever give a
what, if right, it's wild, okayuh, hubris.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
In that I mean just the notion that, like, even if
you met your celebrity crushthat they would want to spend a
night with you.
It's so ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
It's like hey, you know what I'm gonna you right
there in the 80th row.
Yeah, come on.
Yeah so, or yeah so.
I think that's where we'regoing.
Yeah, and I think the problemwith crush is that we all have
different ones.
Yeah, yeah so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
So when I think of crush, I tend to think of an
infatuation.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Right, there's a certain infatuation, and it's I
use that term because when Ithink of infatuation, there's a
sort of unrational, unreasonableattachment, right, this sort of
obsessing over, and so they'reidealized right, exactly, yes, I
mean, once you've kind of goneon a road trip with them, once
(36:29):
you've lost your bags, thenstuck in an airport with them
and everyone's kind of crabby,the idealistic version is out.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yeah, that honeymoon phase, right, the fork notion of
what you think about.
And I think actually the Bibleprovides us a couple of examples
of that right.
So the first one I would say isI think it's 2 Samuel, right.
We, I would say is I think it'ssecond Samuel, right, we have
Amnon and Tamar, yeah, right.
And then he's just like he seesher and he's like, he's like I
got it, it's wild.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
It's a sister.
It's a sister, yeah Half sister, but granted still sister
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
So you know he's, he's has what we'd call a crush
right, he's unreasonably to her,he finds her desirable and uh,
and and that results in what itresults in, in raping her, right
.
And so you can quickly see how,uh, you can go from a crush
into.
You know he's fantasizing about, about being with her.
They're plotting oh, how do we,how do we get her into bed with
(37:20):
you?
Speaker 1 (37:20):
right, him and his friend are plotting together
it's wild that his buddy comesto help him out.
Yeah, here's what you do, Iknow right.
And you, and you're like, youare not a friend, you're a
psychopath.
Now, to be fair, maybe life waspretty boring in the palace and
they're like hey, I'm in thepalace, I need to stir some
stuff up, let's go.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
But yeah, that to me is that story has always been
repulsive in one sense, but veryeye-opening too, because you
find is, after he, he ends upsucceeding in this, in this
really disgusting plan, right,uh, it says the what that he, he
looks at her and he hates herhe hates her more than he loved
her more than he loved her.
Like what?
Speaker 1 (37:59):
yes, what a weird story.
It's so crazy.
Okay, so all right, so let's,let's talk about this.
So like if you have, if you andyour boyfriend have a crush,
this, so like if you have, ifyou and your boyfriend have a
crush, and I mean a celebritycrush, and it's like if I have
the chance to get with uh, namethe person and you are alone
(38:20):
with them after a show, at, atwhatever, are you gonna say?
I mean, do you even have thatconversation?
Just takes down a dark place.
So, no, that's not.
If that's what you mean, no,yeah, can you have a favorite
actor?
Sure, you can have a favoriteactor, a favorite athlete.
You know someone you enjoywatching some of the you know
like, even like political orpastoral or scientific or
(38:42):
business.
Like you know there's still youknow he's gone out like, okay,
go tim cook.
All right, the current appleceo you could like I really
admire how smart and whatever heis, um, or elon musk you know,
we man, elon musk, he's amazing.
Like I think there's some coolthings there, but when you
obsess about him and whateverelon says becomes like you write
(39:04):
it on your wall and you're likeelon said, therefore, I do, I
mean, I think that becomesproblematic and I think that
same kind of thing with acelebrity crush, of like that's
my girl or that's my guy.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Yeah, it's weird.
Yeah, I think so too, I think Ithink that.
So I think, before you evenreach the point of celebrity
crush, let's say you're crushingon somebody in person.
Yeah, yeah, right, I think thatyou know.
If we're defining it in acertain sense as an unreasonable
attachment, I do think that youcan go from an unreasonable
attachment to reasonable.
I do think that if, like, youjust meet somebody and the first
day you're like, you go homeand you're just enamored, you're
(39:39):
like oh my gosh, you know, he'sso cute, she's so cute, you
know whatever that is.
And then later, as you get toknow them, you start developing
hey, there's real connectionhere.
It's no longer unreasonable tofeel the way that you feel,
right, and so you can move froma sort of initial infatuation to
a healthy romantic love oraffection or admiration for
(40:00):
somebody based on real thingsthat you now have in common.
Right, maybe.
But if that doesn't happen andit stays in that area of like,
well, I still, I don't even talkto them, right'm just thinking
about.
I go home and I dream about himafter church, right?
Or I dream about her.
You know, I think that's whereit becomes a slippery slope when
you move to the place ofcelebrity crush.
I think it's almost immediatelygets there.
(40:21):
Remember hearing a, a sermon ora talk.
Once a guy was asking aquestion you know, kids cover,
kids cover your ears about.
Hey, I travel a lot.
I bring a picture of my wifeand you know, I use that to
imagine and pleasure myself,right, is that appropriate?
Is that okay as a Christian?
And the response was I thoughtwas great and ultimately came
(40:44):
down to you know, your wife,when she's in your presence is,
is the subject of your affectionand your love.
That's good.
That image is the object.
Oh, I like that, right.
And so now it's a great way tolook at it.
It's gone from subject toobject.
That's idolatry.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
Oh, interesting yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Right, you know.
And so I think the celebrityquestion, I mean, like those,
those people are really not thesubject of your affection, right
?
You only see images andpictures of them.
You don't even know who theyare, you just hear stories.
And now, all of a sudden,you're giving affection,
admiration, love even to anobject.
Right Now you've gone from, youslipped from what you think is
a crush or an infatuation, andthat's idolatry.
(41:24):
Right Now you're givingaffection and admiration to
something that they can't giveit back, right.
So so it's a very I think it'svery slippery slope.
Uh, you, I would be cautiouswith that.
I certainly wouldn't encouragecrushes.
I know some couples do that.
We're so comfortable, I'm so,yeah, he talks about how much he
loves so and so and she talksabout not something I would
recommend.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
I just don't I just don't think and maybe this is
just me that if my wife wastalking, I'm just gonna go with
Ryan Reynolds alright, justthrowing him out.
If she's talking about RyanReynolds and like how much she
has a crush on him, I don't.
What does that?
Speaker 2 (41:59):
do for me?
Speaker 1 (42:01):
I don't think that, and thank god she doesn't, but I
don't think that would honor me.
I don't think that would.
It's just that's where I go,and maybe this is me being too
careful, but I don't think so.
I think this just leaves roomfor a lot of darkness and, uh,
like, let's say, I getcomparison issues now.
(42:23):
So I'm like, oh, I'm neverenough and I gotta get the gym
way more.
I got cut weight or, yeah,start wearing Deadpool suits or
whatever you know.
Yeah, just like, what's my?
You know, eventually I'm goingto start.
If it means that much to her,yeah, that's going to have an
effect on me.
Yeah, for sure.
On the other hand, like, Ithink there it's a wise place to
(42:45):
say like, hey, a wise place tosay like, hey, I have these
feelings and help me processthem, because then also, when
you keep stuff in the dark, itkind of festers.
But if you can say like, but Idon't think it took glory in
like, I'm just obsessing aboutRyan Reynolds, there's no net
gain, there's no net gain.
But hey, I'm struggling becauseI really I don't know, I've
(43:06):
been thinking about RyanReynolds a lot.
Okay, let's pray about that.
I think that gets us to a placeof health, as opposed to a
place of like glorying in yourfantasy.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, and I do think that, like you
said, I think when you puttingeven, let's say, if somebody is
insecure, I don't think you'rean insecure guy, but if you are
struggling with insecurity,putting that aside, well,
there's no net positive, right,right, right, yeah, yeah and
doing something, yeah, even if,even if that like because I I
could probably see myself beinglike whatever, but knowing that
(43:35):
that doesn't do good for herheart, yeah, that would not do
well for her heart.
Yeah what's being fosteredthere?
Speaker 1 (43:40):
yeah, in her heart, yeah because then you know,
maybe there is a guy that looksa little bit more like ryan
reynolds, yeah, and you know,maybe I can't have Ryan, I can
get the lookalike guy and youknow there's a.
There's a lot there.
I just think that overall, Idon't know what the debate is at
at this particular relationship.
I'm just going to say,whoever's on the side of not
(44:01):
doing the relationship crush,you are far wiser and you get
full credit from our yeah, yeahand, and you get full credit
from our contest.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
Yeah, and I think, even on that note, just thinking
of going back to the idea ofidolatry and affections and
admirations, like shouldn'tthose be going to your current
girlfriend, your current spouse,right?
Why would you divide that?
There's a proverb that talksabout you know, don't drink from
anybody else's fountain.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Yeah, that's Proverbs 5.
Keep to your own cisterns anddrink from your own.
Well, exactly.
And like don't let yourfountains spray all over the
place.
Exactly, yeah, you gotta lovethe sexual euphemisms of the
Proverbs.
Yeah, I really feel like that'san important thing.
And now, grant, even if you'renot married I don't know if
(44:48):
that's like the standard.
Your celebrity crush is yourstandard of what your future
spouse is going to be, andthat's going to be a huge
letdown.
Yeah, or maybe an upgrade, whoknows?
It just depends on where you go.
But I feel like that's the partwhere we're just getting into
fantasy, and fantasy doesn'treally help reality.
Yeah, I agree, man, we wentthrough a whole lot of stuff
today.
We did, we did all over theplace.
Man, hey, if you have anyquestions, would you text us at
(45:10):
737-231-0605 or go topastorplekcom?
We'd love to hear from you.
We talk faith, we talk culture,everything in between.
Thanks, ruben, for joining me.
Man, it's a pleasure to alwaystalk to you, such a smart,
esteemed guy, guys, well readand well newsed.
Hey, thanks so much forwatching.
We'll see you next time.
Have an awesome week.
(45:31):
I love you.
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec,along with my co-host today is
ruben campos.
You work at lifeway.
Yeah, lifeway christianity.
We love lifeway, so lifeway ispretty great, and so we are so
excited to have him on boardwith us today.
We've got a couple questionsthat we have been dealing with.
Uh, one, especially in light ofthe Charlie Kirk assassination
(00:28):
which we found out about.
We were sitting right here lastweek when that came up and so I
want us to talk about it.
It was one of those things.
We were watching the eventsunfold right here and we almost
went live with it, but it waslike, ah, it's too raw, too, too
crazy, and I was like I don'tknow how I'm able to process
that.
Our church did say somethingabout it on Sunday and I think
(00:51):
that you know there's a lot oftakes on that.
There's a lot of debate amongstpastor world.
Should you or should you notsay something about Charlie Kirk
?
I don't know if you knew thatthat was a thing.
Yeah, yeah, I've seen quitequite a bit of that going back
and forth online, so I have seenthat, yeah, and so on the one
(01:11):
hand, you had a lot ofcommunities that had felt really
hurt by Charlie Kirk and a lotof his.
He's a provocateur.
I mean, he definitely was youknow, you know, prove me wrong,
but then and so he had like hehad that sort of mentality, but
then at the same time he hadguys like me.
I really appreciated his workand would watch it regularly and
(01:36):
really thought he was gracefulat sharing the gospel and
although he'd come with an icehat, he was able when he got
into a dialogue with somebody.
It wasn't personal attack, itwas policy, ideology, debate,
and I really thought that thatwas awesome.
So I know that there was a lotthere and so pastors were kind
(02:00):
of in this debate aspect ofshould we say something, should
we not say something?
For sure, yeah, and so it waskind of a wild, wild deal.
What was your thought on that?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Yeah, I mean generally speaking I think you
touched on a lot of points there, but just in regards, for
instance as a starting pointkind of the way that he opened
up his platform yeah, I meanjust starting there.
You talk about, you know,whether he was doing policy or
espousing some sort of ideology.
The fact of the matter is thathe always did give an
(02:33):
opportunity for others ofopposing views to come and speak
.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
And he gave a mic and a full like 15 minutes to go
for it.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I've watched countlessvideos at this point and I find
myself at times struggling tothink could I do that?
Could I be as gracious as hewas during that conversation,
when they're berating him andyelling him down.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
One of my favorite ones is when an old guy came up
and said I want to duel, I wantto fist fight you, yes.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
And he's like no, the Holy Spirit sent me the Holy.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Spirit, that's right.
The Holy Spirit, that's right.
The Holy Spirit sent me this byyou, which I was like okay.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah.
So I think one of the importantthings to like kind of like
sort of wean out of this is theidea of tensions, right, you
know we're talking about.
You know, should churches getbehind this sort of thing?
Should pastors?
Should they mention it?
Should they not?
Right?
And you know he was a politicalideologue and, at the same time
(03:28):
, a believer, and so like, wheredo we draw the line?
You know, and I'm a proponentof and this is something I
learned, like listening to JohnPiper all the time he's always
talking about man.
If you're going to be aChristian, you have to be able
to maintain tensions, right?
And I think this is one ofthose moments where this is not
a biblical tension, but this isa tension in reality, in life.
(03:49):
You know he was a politicalfigure, but he was also a
believer and held to Christianvalues, and so I think there's a
place there in the middle wherewe can say, to a degree,
there's things that areacceptable and there's other
things that we should probablysteer clear of.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
But in regards to, you know, I mean certainly
well-wishing his wife and hischildren and things like that,
and pastors acknowledging anevent of this size on a global
scale, I tend to think there'snothing inappropriate about that
, yeah, yeah, and especiallysince, like I think you know,
during the George Floyd things,you had to say something like
(04:24):
hey, somebody died and that'ssad, and I don't think that
police officer woke up that daythinking I'm going to go kill
somebody.
But you know, ultimately it wasa lament towards the death of
someone and it was on such apublic thing.
And one of the things I've sortof learned and maybe I learned
this like late in my pastoral,in 20, so like four years in, in
(04:48):
2016, donald Trump was electedand, um, I was like it was also
Veterans Day weekend, so thatSunday morning I focused on
Veterans Day and I didn't sayanything about Trump and I had
several people angry I, I meanlike just fired up angry at me
Like how could you not sayanything?
(05:10):
Why would you be silent aboutthis?
You know this is the worstthing for our country and I was
like you know, it's actually notthat bad, it's actually pretty
great.
Uh, you know it's actually notthat bad, it's actually pretty
great.
Yeah, um, yeah and and so that.
But that was one thing I didn'trealize, like how I thought me
not saying anything at all waslike I don't want to, I don't
(05:32):
want to inflame anyone on theleft and I don't want to, like
um, over exalt him anywhere onthe right, and I was like, okay,
I think that's the right answer.
And um, clearly, that was Imean I, I had, I had some people
super angry anyway, uh, andyou're not gonna make everybody
happy.
So what I realized is likesaying something is better than
(05:52):
saying nothing, and and I,because, like, people want to be
led through that and I was like, okay, so next time around
2020,.
When Joe Biden was elected, Isaid, hey, god has the person he
wants on the throne.
This did not get past his will,and some people feel like this
(06:13):
is glorious.
Finally, we have somebody ofcommon sense and practicality.
Is it going to say anythingstupid?
On Twitter?
And then other people that werejust angry Complete opposite
Twitter and then other otherpeople that were just like angry
and like it was as if the samevisceral reaction from 2016.
Hence the polarization ofpolitics.
I just don't know if I've seenpeople feel this drastically,
(06:38):
wildly awful.
Maybe this is true, maybe thisis the part where that I just
haven't been paying attention,um, or I wasn't old enough to
figure it out, but I don't know.
Like it didn't feel like whenGeorge Bush won in 2000,.
Like it was like you know, wewon the Superbowl.
It just like oh cool, you knowhe, you know he seems like he
(06:59):
loves Jesus, that's great.
Wasn't as volatile Right, itjust wasn't.
And Clinton before that, eventhough there was scandal galore,
it was just like all right,yeah, okay, okay.
So then in 2020, with Bidenwinning, and then all of a
sudden, or sorry, before that,you have the George Floyd stuff,
(07:20):
yeah, and we had to saysomething about that, like, hey,
this, you know so.
And then to Biden, then again,trump wins.
It's like we got to saysomething, and so I think this
is where pastors um it, it's animpossible job, as you know uh,
is that you've got to leadpeople in the congregation, uh,
sort of understand, there'severybody at every political
(07:42):
spectrum and um, and you want tomake sure that people are heard
and felt and all the things,except we also have to lead them
towards the direction of hopeand peace.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Yeah, absolutely yeah , I agree a hundred percent.
And I think there's this kindof and I don't think it's a
biblical notion, but there'sthis concept, um, in in science
of Noma, non-overlappingmagisteria, right, and it's, you
know, we don't overlap theconcepts of science and
Christianity, right, they don'tcombine, right, they're not on
(08:17):
the same level, that sort ofthing, right?
So you seek to kind of shiftthose things apart, this
non-overlapping magisteria, andpeople have the same idea in
regards to religion and politics, right.
But I would say, man, if youtake a hard look at scripture
now, I'm not saying the pulpitshould ever become a platform
for politics, but it's hard forme to look at scripture and not
(08:39):
see the marriage, so often,between politics and religious
belief, right, and so, whetherit was Solomon or David, whether
it was Nehemiah, whether, youknow, it was John who's talking
about Herod, or Jesus talkingabout the Pharisees, and while
they were religious leaders,they were highly involved in
politics.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
And so there's certainly from a biblical
perspective, I think there'splenty of ground to say, hey,
it's okay and not inappropriate.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Right, even what you said about science.
I mean science and religioncross all the time when we talk
about the way the brain is madeor the way that you process
emotions.
I mean, in fact, this week wetalked about, you know,
overcoming fear.
This next week we're talkingabout overcoming sadness, and
(09:27):
there's a part of it.
There's, you know, depression'sa thing and real Bible
characters experience it, and so, you know, there's a science of
the brain.
So I think that, no matter what, as a pastor you're going to
kind of cross over so manydifferent I don't know if
vocation is the right word butdisciplines, so many different
disciplines that you're.
(09:47):
It's not that you need to beknowledgeable about everything,
but just understanding thatthere's going to be something
that you're going to say thatmight offend or affect all these
different disciplines, which iswhy a lot of guys pastors use
sports illustrations, becauseusually they're not offensive.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
But, you know, it's great that you bring that up in
regards to disciplines of lifeand because the reality is, how
many times, if you go to achurch website and you go to
values and missions and theytalk about scripture, and they
talk about scripture being theirultimate source for truth in
all the faith in life, right?
Well, if it's for all the faithin life, then surely we should
(10:24):
be able to talk about, you know,things that are happening on a
global scale, politically rightAgain to a degree, right, right,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
And I mean I feel like you know you don't?
Yeah, I think so.
So here's a question that cameup that sparked all this Should
a church really be standingbehind a man like Charlie Kirk?
I know he claims to be aChristian and follows all
Christian nationalist talkingpoints to a T, but does he
really exhibit Christian fruit?
When I look at the latestYouTube videos, they are labeled
(10:53):
things like Charlie Kirk handsout L's.
Charlie Kirk sends someone intoa mental breakdown and other
things that he is obviouslyshowing disdain to people who
don't look like him or believelike him.
He obviously likes to bedivisive more on political
points than Christian points, soit just seems weird to make an
Instagram post for him.
So, um, yeah, I, if, if, if allCharlie Kirk was was like, was
(11:16):
like just a, uh, instagraminfluencer yeah, we would.
He wouldn't be the news.
Yeah, we would, he wouldn't bethe news.
I mean, he's still in the.
I mean like he's in.
It's a 24 7 news cycle, so Idon't think saying nothing is
appropriate.
Yeah, and now are there somethings that charlie kirk may
have, may have done.
Maybe he was a provocateur.
He was like let me, let me, youknow, dig you, but the things
(11:37):
that you watch, like he did, hehad stuff of like watch charlie
kirk dismantle this, yeah, andyou're like okay, and I
sometimes watch his opponent andI watched it.
I'm like that wasn't actuallythat crushing, it was actually
kind of tame, yeah, should wepunish people for clickbait?
yes, listen, did he clickbait mea million times?
(11:58):
Yes, but did I actually enjoy alot of the stuff he did?
Absolutely so, yeah, do I wantto punish someone for clickbait?
No, everyone's got to make aliving somehow.
But I think because I thinkthat's where the real problem
with him would be is on theclickbait.
I thought whenever he talked orspoke it was really well spoken
, he was really articulate and Idon't like.
(12:18):
A lot of times people thoughtof him as a racist, which I
thought was sort of wild,because one of his best friends
was like candace owen and I'mnot like I'm not all out candace
owens fan, I mean, yeah forsure issues, for sure, I mean
tons of issues topic for anotherday.
I mean, like I feel like shejust said something about
charlie kirk really wanted to becatholic and I was like okay, I
mean, anyway, it's like, whywould you even say that?
Yeah, uh, but, uh.
(12:39):
But clearly we were talkingbefore talking about some of the
things that he did for theblack community, that it was
unique yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
So so, real quick, before I jump into that, I would
recommend to uh the questioneror anybody else who's kind of
questioning this, this, um, thisidea that that charlie kirk may
have been racist, um to youknow, when you're searching, uh,
rather than just just lookingat what comes into your feed,
you know, can ask questions tosearch engines, right.
So if you're on YouTube, youcan say was Charlie Kirk a
(13:08):
racist?
And you'll see a plethora ofvideos coming up from his black
supporters, his black fan base,right, saying that's crazy,
right.
Here's why you know.
And so some of those videos maybe helpful to people who are
looking for more answers andmaybe wanting to hear as well
from a minority group, right,what they thought about it.
And I say that as a Caucasianman, but I'm Cuban and Mexican,
(13:31):
right.
And so a lot of times peoplewill be like oh, you're saying
that because you're a white guy,right.
But I know very well, growingup in a Spanish household with
two immigrant parents, what it'slike to have, you know,
prejudice leveled against you.
Wait, but you do, you speak youspeak Spanish?
Yes, I do.
Do you also speak Portuguese?
I do, I speak Portuguese aswell, so I learned.
I learned Portuguese dating agirl in a Brazilian church.
(13:51):
So that's, but I'll tell you itcame to me after a couple of
months.
It just clicked.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Okay, wow, that's wild.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
So so yeah.
But going back to Charlie Kirkand whether or not he was a
racist, a couple of things, likeyou mentioned his friendship
and partnership with CandaceOwens, who he traveled literally
all 50 states with touringcampuses, touring different
conference centers, and globallyas well for years and years,
(14:22):
and his tight friendships withOfficer Tatum, who's another guy
who speaks very highly of him.
No-transcript in our nation'scapital's history and it was put
(14:49):
together by Charlie Kirk, right, yeah so, whatever you have to
say about him, he's not racist.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
I think that would have been super clear.
You may disagree with himideologically, which then gets
us to the next point, and here'swhat the person kind of wrote a
subsequent text in.
She said nevermind, I prayedabout it, and even though the
intentional race baiting doeslead to a harder life for my
children and myself, it makes menot like or respect him.
(15:15):
I can't debase, or I can't basemy disdain for another
Christian over something that isa non-salvation issue, and
shouldn't lose respect foranother Christian who obviously
values the gospel and spreadingit, probably better than me,
even if he chooses to race bait.
And so I don't know about therace baiting per se, although if
what you mean is, like you know, throwing out L's and I again
(15:35):
the click bait drove me crazy,um, but what I, what I do want
to say is uh, is that we're?
We see that you're going tohave secondary issues.
I think I put this here.
Watch this If I believe thathuman beings are made in the
image of God and that God lovesall people, that makes it into a
(15:57):
primary issue.
Like you've damaged the imageof God when you say, like God
has a second class of humanbeing, absolutely.
I mean, is that okay to putthat into the primary issue?
I don't want to be overly crazyabout it.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
I would still make a distinction between what it
looks like.
Our questioners ask likesalvific issue versus, but I
would still say a primary issue.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
So it might not be a salvific issue, but maybe a
primary issue for, like, being apart of a church or whatever
would be like, hey, if you can'twrap your head around God's
love for all people and youthink like that someone is worth
less because of what their skincolor, culture, background is,
then clearly you are not able tosee what Christ has done on the
(16:45):
cross and that his value forthe humans that he created, and
you're not seeing the Imago Deiin people.
So I think we would go there.
So this is the part I said whatplace should we draw?
And I think the question is,like man, I feel like some of
this stuff is problematic for meand I don't know what it like.
Let's take it's not the racething, let's just move off that.
(17:05):
Let's say, his position onimmigration.
Yeah, um, how are Christians toargue and argue, maybe reason?
I know argue seems like astrong word, but I feel like you
know you have a position, Ihave a position.
Let's argue about it and workit out.
Yeah, like, how are Christianssupposed to do that in a way in
a public square that gets theirposition heard, without being
(17:28):
called a fascist or beingmurdered for it.
I think that's the, that's theissue that I feel like uh, has
been brought up nationwide andand honestly I feel like
recently Pam Bondi, the AG, hasyou know, they're going to call
all the speech of everyone thatwas sort of against Charlie Kirk
or just like hate speech, andI'm like whoa, I mean, this is
(17:49):
where I'm like I don't want usto go to this place where we're
just like what are we doing Now?
I agree that this might be thepart.
This is a place where you knowGod and government has a
relationship, god and the churchhas a relationship, god and the
family has a relationship.
God and the church has arelationship, god and the family
has a relationship, and thatmight be a great place for the
church to step in and say, hey,you shouldn't talk like that.
(18:10):
But I don't know if that's the.
Anyway, I would love to hearyour thoughts on that.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yeah, I haven't heard what she mentioned on this so
I'm not familiar with it, butI'm certainly.
I'm for less classified speechas hate speech, right, I don't
want more of that.
I think we should have less ofthat.
But the challenge there becomes, like you mentioned, how can we
do that and still remain safe?
Right, how can we have thesesorts of conversations and
(18:36):
dialogues where quote unquotealleged hate speech is being
shared and still, you know, bein a place and a position?
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Here's what she said there's free speech and then
there's hate speech and there'sno place, especially now, in our
society.
We will absolutely target you,go after you.
If you're targeting anyone, ifyou are targeting anyone with
hate speech, anything, andthat's across the aisle.
And then, after that backlash,she clarified by hate speech she
meant speech that crosses theline into threats of violence,
(19:06):
which she says is not protectedby the first amendment.
Well, of course that I agreewith that.
I agree with that.
I agree with.
The problem is words havemeaning and like look up the
dictionary what is thedefinition of hate speech?
And I don't know if we don'thave you know.
This is why Webster invented Ithink we were talking about this
morning on Bible study.
Webster invented the Bible sowe'd know what words meant.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah, the dictionary.
Yeah, sorry, Sorry.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Yeah, he invented the dictionary so we'd know what
words mean.
Yes, yeah, anyway, that's whereI look at this whole thing and
I'm like what is?
And I feel like there is nocommon, universally accepted
definition.
So therefore you can callanything hate speech and
everyone's like, well, that's mydefinition.
Anyway, get into what is awoman, next thing?
You know?
Okay, so, anyway, so, all right, so we understand there's a
(19:49):
difference, so what?
And I feel like you've really,especially being at Lifeway
where you guys have to kind ofthink through a lot of this
stuff.
Yeah, because it's not likeChristians are monolithic, like
they only vote for Republicans,and so there is a part of this.
Even talking about Charlie Kirkin any sort of positive way has
(20:09):
a negative effect on people.
And what is the?
You know, what's the Christianresponse?
The right one?
I feel like here's the partthat's hard.
What's the right Christianresponse when someone's coming
at it like you're supporting,like a, a person who hates
immigrants, or you know, yourperson hates people, you know,
and you may think it's right,wrong or indifferent, but
(20:30):
they're coming with such stronglanguage and now, all of a
sudden, it's a polemic and Ithink there's a place for a
logical debate between believers.
Understand that there's a lovefor one another.
That's understood.
But I think what happens a lotof time?
We don't have that.
Where do you think the line isdrawn on how we do that?
Well, the line is drawn on howwe do that.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Well, you know, I think, for me, the line, I think
that the line is drawn inregards to not allowing fear to
be the motivation for what tostop.
Right, right, like I think thatyou know.
If so, there's a component oftruth, right, I always want to
be conveying truth, at least tothe best of my ability.
(21:06):
But the other part is, I thinkthat if I'm ever feeling
prohibited or inhibited fromsharing a truth because I'm
scared of what the repercussionmight be, right, oh well, you
know, if you do that, you'lllose this many followers, or,
you know, people will stopcoming to your restaurant, that
sort of thing.
I go back to what is it?
Martin Luther, I think thewhole here I stand, you know,
(21:28):
like that sort of thing.
I think as Christians, we haveto be able to take a stance on
things that are true, right, andI think that, whatever the cost
for that is and I think Charliewas doing that I think that's
actually going back to Charlie.
You know he was taking a stance.
You know, despite the obviousdangers that were present in him
(21:50):
doing so, I'm putting aside hispolitical views, just doing
what he was doing when he wasespousing Christian views on
campuses, primarily very liberalcampuses.
He was putting himself in aplace of danger, but he
determined that, hey, I'm goingto take a stand for what's true
and share that without fear, andso I think, as Christians,
that's something we should bedoing as well.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
So here's kind of the pushback I'm seeing.
It goes something like this howcan you stand up for one man,
charlie Kirk, when you're notstanding up for all the genocide
in the Gaza?
And I think that becomes a soupin like.
Why, really?
A lot of like.
There's all these thingshappening globally.
Yeah, you're not sayinganything about that.
But why are you sayingsomething about?
(22:33):
I mean, at least that's whatI've been seeing Like that was
one of the ones that popped upor why, why, you don't care
about the.
There was a governor.
That was a Minnesota, notgovernor.
It was, um, I think their stateshoot speaker of the house or
something.
Minnesota though, right, yeah,minnesota's like state
government lady.
That, which is terrible.
(22:54):
I don't know her name.
She was killed, right, she wasmurdered.
She was essentially assassinatedfor her political views, and
that's you know.
I didn't even know that untilthe Charlie Kirk thing came up
to be fair.
And you know it's not mynewsfeed.
It might be, because you knowguess where my newsfeed is.
(23:14):
You know it's the echo chamberof all the stuff I want to hear,
which is, you know, not great,but it is what it is, and so
clearly we need to kind ofthat's wrong.
You should not murder somebodybecause they have a different
view than you.
In fact, even if they have adifferent view, let the
government handle that.
Like you, don't need to takethis vigilante justice.
(23:35):
Even if you think that persondid something that deserved
death, well, even then, you'vegot to let the government handle
it.
The king doesn't bear the swordfor nothing, it's his to bear.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Absolutely For something like see, I've been
hearing this a lot and I reallytry my best to go towards and
lean into simple, plain,understandable responses.
Right, everything doesn't haveto be hyper-politicized.
Right, and so she was apolitician, she was assassinated
, right.
Right Now is it super complexto understand the difference
(24:06):
between what happened to her andwhat happened to Charlie?
Personally, I don't think so,right, from what you're saying
right now.
Right, out of sight is out ofmind.
Yeah, that's not a theologicalpremise, that's not a political
premise, that's just a commonsense thing.
I've never seen her before,I've never heard her.
I'm devastated.
I hate to hear that she waskilled.
(24:29):
That's horrid, right, butCharlie Kirk was somebody I
heard.
I followed his career for eightyears.
I saw his star rise.
Right, I was also invested inhis positions.
Right, and so all of thesethings lend themselves to,
individually, to me having agreater response to what
happened to Charlie than to her.
Now, when you multiply that bymillions of people who had the
(24:50):
same experience as I did, right,in regards to those two
individuals, it's not, it's notchallenging to understand why
there wasn't such an uproar.
That's not to say of, that'snot a value statement, that her
life was worth less at all.
That's not a value proposition,that's just a a simple, you
know, common sense.
Hey, like this individualwasn't in the limelight.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
So Melissa Horbin, that's who it was, melissa
Horbin.
She was murdered on June 14th,which it's wild, I mean sad in
some ways right, but she didn'thave the.
I'm sure you know there'sprobably murders that happen
every day and each human life isindividually valuable, and that
is absolutely wrong.
(25:30):
It is killing the Imago Dei,which that's how God chose to
represent himself on the planet.
It was like I mark my territorywith human beings and when you
slay one of those, it's likeerasing a tag from the gang,
like you have done irreparabledamage and your life is required
of that.
If you murder somebody, whichis sort of wild, okay, yeah, so
(25:53):
yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
So, yeah, go ahead.
A simple thought experience foranybody who's watching to do is
just to just consider your ownparents yeah, a sibling.
Right, how you feel if you losea sibling.
You get news that your brother,your sister, your cousin, your
aunt, your uncle has passed away, someone that you were close to
.
It's devastating.
If you hear news about someonein a foreign country, far off in
(26:18):
a way that you have no ideaabout the cousin, uncle, aunt of
somebody else, you're not goingto feel the same way, right,
and so it's on just a simplepremise.
It's that easy to understand.
Obviously it more complexbecause there's there's added
components to it, but I thinkit's.
You know, when we begin tobreak it down like that, it
becomes a little easier tocomprehend.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Um, okay, so I think we hammered that, but I think
there's so much politically,globally.
I mean, we could talk tariffsand how.
What does you know?
What does Jesus say about that?
You know, I mean, I don'treally.
You know, this is where thegovernment has its own autonomy,
in some ways to govern as itsees fit on stuff like tariffs
(27:00):
and what's the best thing forour country?
You know, interest rates,what's the best?
thing Fed's cut rates yeah right, yeah, quarter point cut today.
Thank you, uh, drum pal,something you know like.
So I think there, there's,there's, there's, that, that's
like there's so much going on.
I think what was hard for me in2020 is it felt like every day
(27:20):
there was a new crisis, yeah,and and then I would.
I would be criticized for notreacting fast enough, but then
I'd react and I'd find out moreinformation.
That wasn't exactly like what Ithought it was, yeah, and that
became such a um, I just feltlike a slingshot, just a
pendulum, just super fast, justnot knowing how to handle each
(27:41):
and everything.
And I feel like, honestly Ithink I've said this before I
was not prepared theologicallyfor the anthropological
arguments of, like, what's myargument about man race, uh,
gender?
Yeah, I think I I'd done a goodjob of understanding um on my
(28:01):
own, like sexuality andhomosexuality, and I I was able
to articulate that very well.
I felt good about that.
But when it came to 2020, Ithink I was weak on
understanding a logicalunderstanding of how human
beings are made in the image ofGod and how to punish one set of
(28:23):
humans for the pain of anotherwas just sort of an off thing to
do.
Yeah, that, that honestly, itwouldn't be off biblically, if
you kind of say, like you know,I will.
They will pay for their sins,for the to the third and fourth
generation, but I'll show mylove to the thousandth
generation.
However, when we get to Ezekiel, that shifts and you see that
(28:45):
each man will die for his ownsin.
Yeah, shifts and you see thateach man will die for his own
sin, which is sort of aninteresting shift theologically,
anthropologically, because asyou look at man, how are they to
take on sin and how do theypass it forward?
And are you now responsible forthe sins of your forefathers?
And what we've clearly seen islike no, you aren't.
(29:06):
Would, would you agree withthat?
I would agree a hundred percentwith that, and I don't think I,
I don't think I was preparedAgain, that that came from a lot
of reading.
I think Votie Bauckham was oneof the guys I read.
That would just really help me.
I also read all the other stuffof what was a crazy one, that
um gosh, uh, that, uh, fragilefragile white fragility, white
(29:30):
fragile.
I read white fragility and thenI did a lot of Ibrahim Kendi,
read all his stuff, and I waslike, um, it helped see that
there was, there wasn't abiblical bias, it was just a
oppressed oppressor, yeah, andit was a regurgitation of a
Marxist doctrine, which I wasn't.
I don't know if I would havebeen able to see that prior to
(29:51):
that, but I was like, oh, you'vejust put everybody in this
class and they have to be inconstant repentance for their
existing because of what theylook like.
And that, to me, was like isn'tthat exactly what we want to
get away from?
Yeah, all right.
So I know we probably went waydown a rabbit hole and probably
people tuned out by now.
(30:11):
Okay, but I do want to say,like, whenever, like if you are
in a political minority in achurch I don't know if that's if
, like, your pastor is more bentto the right or if he's more
bent to the left and he sayssomething that you don't agree
with, I think that's a greattime to have the conversation.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yeah, absolutely I think.
So.
One of the things you pointedout earlier was just the when
you were, when the 2020, I thinkyou were saying you were just
getting bombarded weekly.
I mean, all of us were, we werejust.
You know, we're havingquestions every week and while
we mentioned at the onset of theconversation that, I think we
both agreed that, yes, these arethings that the pastors should
(30:52):
engage, should talk about.
I don't think there's anyquestion there.
I think the question is youknow, how do we determine which
things to talk about?
Because, honestly, like you'resaying, if we're paying
attention to the media and tothe things going on around us,
there's no lack of new thingsbeing poured in every day that
we can address right, and so,like, I'll toss that back to you
(31:14):
and I'll say you know, whenpastors are being bombarded
leaders so often church leadersby different things that are
coming in, how do youdistinguish?
Yeah, I think that's good.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Yeah, I feel like I so.
For example, I know this isterrible.
I don't.
I know this is terrible.
I don't think I even reallyknew about the Colorado shooting
Okay, like I think that washappened just before this and
the stabbing on the New York thetrain.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
North Carolina, north Carolina.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
See, I didn't even know that happened.
So, like, that's where I'm tobe caught up on everything.
In fact, I I'm to be caught upon everything.
In fact, I think Charlie Kirkwas actually calling for pastors
to mention the Ukrainian womanand her story on Sunday mornings
, and I'm not sure what his callto action was, but I know that
(32:01):
he said something and I missedthat one, and so at some point
I've become okay with not beingattached to my phone to stare at
, to get updates all the time.
In fact, um, you know thatsocial was it called the social
network or something like thatwas like, um, not the one about
(32:21):
how facebook was invented, butthe one about the documentary
about, like, how the algorithmswork.
No, I'm not all right, sothey're.
Essentially, this documentarygoes the algorithms work to kind
of make you you're the customerand you're going to repeat and
they're going to try and get youto.
You know, do their?
Oh, yes, I, I, I think I doremember, so, so I after I saw
that I intentionally went andmessed up my algorithm, so I
don't know anybody on myFacebook.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
How'd it work out?
It worked out great.
I don't know anything.
It's like it's just a bunch ofrandom people I don't care about
.
So I put it down and every nowand then I'll post something
like I care about and I'll gointo it, but like I don.
If it comes to me two or threetimes, then I'm probably like
yeah, or if it's something Ialready genuinely already know
(33:16):
about a lot of us, I just didn'tknow like yeah, the Colorado
there's.
I hate to say, math shootingshave become so commonplace, but
I think it it was a shooting andI just didn't get the details.
I heard there was a shooting.
I wasn't really sure it was ashooting that already happened.
It't get the details.
I heard there was a shooting.
I wasn't really sure it was ashooting that already happened.
It's almost regurgitating, butanyway, that was.
I think that's the problem.
There's so much that that giveyour pastor grace on what he
(33:38):
knows doesn't know a whole storyAt the same time, you don't
need to send him, you don't needto do the research for him,
because that gets reallyannoying, although I appreciate
that you work so hard.
Okay, but yeah, I think wecovered that.
All right, we're going to shifthere to something not intense,
(33:59):
a little less serious.
Yeah, all right, everyone justchill out for a sec.
All right, this is from anotherperson.
I thought it'd be fun to have acouple's conversation about
Hollywood crushes.
Is it okay to have them?
Why or why not?
Uh, my boyfriend and I had thisconversation and we have
different opinions on this topic.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
I'd love to hear what you think.
Yeah, the topic of crushes.
So I think we I I don't know ifit was today or last week, but,
um, I think it was this morning.
Actually, we're talking aboutdefining terms.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
You probably had brought up Webster right, yeah,
webster's Dictionary, notWebster's Bible.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Yeah, and so I think that, to get to even like start
this conversation, let's justlike define what a crush is
right, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
So, yeah, let's see what you pull up there.
Hold on, I did pull it up, letme see if I can find it here.
Okay, here we go.
Crush Intense.
Yeah, this is okay, all right.
First, is it admiration oridolatry?
All right, it's natural toadmire someone's beauty, talent
(35:02):
or charisma.
But if a crush is idolatry,placing that person to a place
of worship or ultimate devotionor obsession, who dominates your
thoughts and desires?
Or or is it a fantasy?
Like I get a hall pass, if Iever, you know, if I ever meet
my, my celebrity, uh, I get to,you know, have a night with them
(35:24):
, and that is your gift to me,cause that'll probably never
happen, but just in case it does, I don't want to ever give a
what, if right, it's wild, okayuh, hubris.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
In that I mean just the notion that, like, even if
you met your celebrity crushthat they would want to spend a
night with you.
It's so ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
It's like hey, you know what I'm gonna you right
there in the 80th row.
Yeah, come on.
Yeah so, or yeah so.
I think that's where we'regoing.
Yeah, and I think the problemwith crush is that we all have
different ones.
Yeah, yeah so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
So when I think of crush, I tend to think of an
infatuation.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Right, there's a certain infatuation, and it's I
use that term because when Ithink of infatuation, there's a
sort of unrational, unreasonableattachment, right, this sort of
obsessing over, and so they'reidealized right, exactly, yes, I
mean, once you've kind of goneon a road trip with them, once
(36:29):
you've lost your bags, thenstuck in an airport with them
and everyone's kind of crabby,the idealistic version is out.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yeah, that honeymoon phase, right, the fork notion of
what you think about.
And I think actually the Bibleprovides us a couple of examples
of that right.
So the first one I would say isI think it's 2 Samuel, right.
We, I would say is I think it'ssecond Samuel, right, we have
Amnon and Tamar, yeah, right.
And then he's just like he seesher and he's like, he's like I
got it, it's wild.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
It's a sister.
It's a sister, yeah Half sister, but granted still sister
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
So you know he's, he's has what we'd call a crush
right, he's unreasonably to her,he finds her desirable and uh,
and and that results in what itresults in, in raping her, right
.
And so you can quickly see how,uh, you can go from a crush
into.
You know he's fantasizing about, about being with her.
They're plotting oh, how do we,how do we get her into bed with
(37:20):
you?
Speaker 1 (37:20):
right, him and his friend are plotting together
it's wild that his buddy comesto help him out.
Yeah, here's what you do, Iknow right.
And you, and you're like, youare not a friend, you're a
psychopath.
Now, to be fair, maybe life waspretty boring in the palace and
they're like hey, I'm in thepalace, I need to stir some
stuff up, let's go.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
But yeah, that to me is that story has always been
repulsive in one sense, but veryeye-opening too, because you
find is, after he, he ends upsucceeding in this, in this
really disgusting plan, right,uh, it says the what that he, he
looks at her and he hates herhe hates her more than he loved
her more than he loved her.
Like what?
Speaker 1 (37:59):
yes, what a weird story.
It's so crazy.
Okay, so all right, so let's,let's talk about this.
So like if you have, if you andyour boyfriend have a crush,
this, so like if you have, ifyou and your boyfriend have a
crush, and I mean a celebritycrush, and it's like if I have
the chance to get with uh, namethe person and you are alone
(38:20):
with them after a show, at, atwhatever, are you gonna say?
I mean, do you even have thatconversation?
Just takes down a dark place.
So, no, that's not.
If that's what you mean, no,yeah, can you have a favorite
actor?
Sure, you can have a favoriteactor, a favorite athlete.
You know someone you enjoywatching some of the you know
like, even like political orpastoral or scientific or
(38:42):
business.
Like you know there's still youknow he's gone out like, okay,
go tim cook.
All right, the current appleceo you could like I really
admire how smart and whatever heis, um, or elon musk you know,
we man, elon musk, he's amazing.
Like I think there's some coolthings there, but when you
obsess about him and whateverelon says becomes like you write
(39:04):
it on your wall and you're likeelon said, therefore, I do, I
mean, I think that becomesproblematic and I think that
same kind of thing with acelebrity crush, of like that's
my girl or that's my guy.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Yeah, it's weird.
Yeah, I think so too, I think Ithink that.
So I think, before you evenreach the point of celebrity
crush, let's say you're crushingon somebody in person.
Yeah, yeah, right, I think thatyou know.
If we're defining it in acertain sense as an unreasonable
attachment, I do think that youcan go from an unreasonable
attachment to reasonable.
I do think that if, like, youjust meet somebody and the first
day you're like, you go homeand you're just enamored, you're
(39:39):
like oh my gosh, you know, he'sso cute, she's so cute, you
know whatever that is.
And then later, as you get toknow them, you start developing
hey, there's real connectionhere.
It's no longer unreasonable tofeel the way that you feel,
right, and so you can move froma sort of initial infatuation to
a healthy romantic love oraffection or admiration for
(40:00):
somebody based on real thingsthat you now have in common.
Right, maybe.
But if that doesn't happen andit stays in that area of like,
well, I still, I don't even talkto them, right'm just thinking
about.
I go home and I dream about himafter church, right?
Or I dream about her.
You know, I think that's whereit becomes a slippery slope when
you move to the place ofcelebrity crush.
I think it's almost immediatelygets there.
(40:21):
Remember hearing a, a sermon ora talk.
Once a guy was asking aquestion you know, kids cover,
kids cover your ears about.
Hey, I travel a lot.
I bring a picture of my wifeand you know, I use that to
imagine and pleasure myself,right, is that appropriate?
Is that okay as a Christian?
And the response was I thoughtwas great and ultimately came
(40:44):
down to you know, your wife,when she's in your presence is,
is the subject of your affectionand your love.
That's good.
That image is the object.
Oh, I like that, right.
And so now it's a great way tolook at it.
It's gone from subject toobject.
That's idolatry.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
Oh, interesting yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Right, you know.
And so I think the celebrityquestion, I mean, like those,
those people are really not thesubject of your affection, right
?
You only see images andpictures of them.
You don't even know who theyare, you just hear stories.
And now, all of a sudden,you're giving affection,
admiration, love even to anobject.
Right Now you've gone from, youslipped from what you think is
a crush or an infatuation, andthat's idolatry.
(41:24):
Right Now you're givingaffection and admiration to
something that they can't giveit back, right.
So so it's a very I think it'svery slippery slope.
Uh, you, I would be cautiouswith that.
I certainly wouldn't encouragecrushes.
I know some couples do that.
We're so comfortable, I'm so,yeah, he talks about how much he
loves so and so and she talksabout not something I would
recommend.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
I just don't I just don't think and maybe this is
just me that if my wife wastalking, I'm just gonna go with
Ryan Reynolds alright, justthrowing him out.
If she's talking about RyanReynolds and like how much she
has a crush on him, I don't.
What does that?
Speaker 2 (41:59):
do for me?
Speaker 1 (42:01):
I don't think that, and thank god she doesn't, but I
don't think that would honor me.
I don't think that would.
It's just that's where I go,and maybe this is me being too
careful, but I don't think so.
I think this just leaves roomfor a lot of darkness and, uh,
like, let's say, I getcomparison issues now.
(42:23):
So I'm like, oh, I'm neverenough and I gotta get the gym
way more.
I got cut weight or, yeah,start wearing Deadpool suits or
whatever you know.
Yeah, just like, what's my?
You know, eventually I'm goingto start.
If it means that much to her,yeah, that's going to have an
effect on me.
Yeah, for sure.
On the other hand, like, Ithink there it's a wise place to
(42:45):
say like, hey, a wise place tosay like, hey, I have these
feelings and help me processthem, because then also, when
you keep stuff in the dark, itkind of festers.
But if you can say like, but Idon't think it took glory in
like, I'm just obsessing aboutRyan Reynolds, there's no net
gain, there's no net gain.
But hey, I'm struggling becauseI really I don't know, I've
(43:06):
been thinking about RyanReynolds a lot.
Okay, let's pray about that.
I think that gets us to a placeof health, as opposed to a
place of like glorying in yourfantasy.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, and I do think that, like you
said, I think when you puttingeven, let's say, if somebody is
insecure, I don't think you'rean insecure guy, but if you are
struggling with insecurity,putting that aside, well,
there's no net positive, right,right, right, yeah, yeah and
doing something, yeah, even if,even if that like because I I
could probably see myself beinglike whatever, but knowing that
(43:35):
that doesn't do good for herheart, yeah, that would not do
well for her heart.
Yeah what's being fosteredthere?
Speaker 1 (43:40):
yeah, in her heart, yeah because then you know,
maybe there is a guy that looksa little bit more like ryan
reynolds, yeah, and you know,maybe I can't have Ryan, I can
get the lookalike guy and youknow there's a.
There's a lot there.
I just think that overall, Idon't know what the debate is at
at this particular relationship.
I'm just going to say,whoever's on the side of not
(44:01):
doing the relationship crush,you are far wiser and you get
full credit from our yeah, yeahand, and you get full credit
from our contest.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
Yeah, and I think, even on that note, just thinking
of going back to the idea ofidolatry and affections and
admirations, like shouldn'tthose be going to your current
girlfriend, your current spouse,right?
Why would you divide that?
There's a proverb that talksabout you know, don't drink from
anybody else's fountain.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Yeah, that's Proverbs 5.
Keep to your own cisterns anddrink from your own.
Well, exactly.
And like don't let yourfountains spray all over the
place.
Exactly, yeah, you gotta lovethe sexual euphemisms of the
Proverbs.
Yeah, I really feel like that'san important thing.
And now, grant, even if you'renot married I don't know if
(44:48):
that's like the standard.
Your celebrity crush is yourstandard of what your future
spouse is going to be, andthat's going to be a huge
letdown.
Yeah, or maybe an upgrade, whoknows?
It just depends on where you go.
But I feel like that's the partwhere we're just getting into
fantasy, and fantasy doesn'treally help reality.
Yeah, I agree, man, we wentthrough a whole lot of stuff
today.
We did, we did all over theplace.
Man, hey, if you have anyquestions, would you text us at
(45:10):
737-231-0605 or go topastorplekcom?
We'd love to hear from you.
We talk faith, we talk culture,everything in between.
Thanks, ruben, for joining me.
Man, it's a pleasure to alwaystalk to you, such a smart,
esteemed guy, guys, well readand well newsed.
Hey, thanks so much forwatching.
We'll see you next time.
Have an awesome week.
(45:31):
I love you.
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