March 13, 2025 • 27 mins
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348: When you miss your spouse's cues, how do you find your way back to connection? Our deep dive into Song of Solomon chapter 5 reveals a profound portrait of marriage after the honeymoon phase, when miscommunication and hurt feelings create distance between lovers.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pastor Plek (00:06):
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec, andjoining me in studio is none
other than muhammad ali.
Hello, pastor mo.
It preached our sermon onsunday and then also from the
east side, pastor hollandgg, howare we doing?
Pastor Holland (00:23):
Doing great.
Thanks, Chris.
Pastor Plek (00:25):
Well, you know, awesome experience this past
Sunday we got into Song ofSolomon, chapter 5.
And the first couple versestalked about really the previous
week.
It ended with eat, friends,drink and be drunk with love,
but then things after thehoneymoon experience of a lot of
(00:46):
sexual intimacy then jumps intoverse two.
Take it away from there, mo.
What did you experience or whatdo you think is going on in
this story?
In fact, I have a questionoriented around verses 2 through
7 of chapter 5.
The question is in the book ofSong of Solomon, are verses
(01:09):
chapter 5, 2 through 7 a dream,because it starts with I slept
and he said he's looking upConstable's notes, which, if
you're familiar with Dr TomConstable, one of my professors
from Dallas Seminary, he saysit's a dream?
Pastor Mo (01:27):
What say ye Muhammad?
Maybe it doesn't matter, to meit doesn't matter.
Pastor Plek (01:31):
It can be.
One of my favorite answers inseminary was could be, could be,
could be, and then I would getso angry because I would be like
, no, just tell me the answer.
And he'd be like could be.
Pastor Holland (01:44):
I slept, but my heart was awake, yeah.
Pastor Mo (01:47):
And the slept in the Hebrew.
When I looked it up, it alsocould mean I laid down and my
heart was awake.
It's the same word.
Pastor Plek (01:55):
Well, that's frustrating.
Pastor Mo (01:56):
Yeah, it doesn't matter.
But why doesn't it matter it?
Pastor Holland (01:59):
doesn't change anything.
Explain yourself.
You're saying the Bible doesn'tmatter.
Pastor Mo (02:03):
No, no, no, it doesn't matter whether she was
awake or she's dreaming it,because what happens in the
actual thing, in the actual text, that's what matters.
Pastor Plek (02:16):
To be fair, this is a poem, it's a song.
Pastor Mo (02:21):
That's like asking the question.
The thing that I brought up iswhen the guards beat her up.
Was that a good thing or a badthing?
Pastor Plek (02:29):
it doesn't matter that's not the point.
It could have been corruptguards.
Yes, they were getting paid off, but the important thing is she
got beat down.
Pastor Mo (02:36):
It was painful yeah, or or they thought she was a
prostitute or a virgin sneakingaround out of her dad's house,
and then then they did do good.
Pastor Plek (02:43):
Who knows, that doesn't matter, it doesn't
matter.
It doesn't matter Like, stopworrying about, like the
policeman.
Pastor Mo (02:48):
Yeah.
Pastor Plek (02:49):
Is this a police brutality verse?
No, it's not.
Pastor Mo (02:51):
No no.
Pastor Plek (02:53):
Okay so.
Pastor Holland (02:54):
Okay, but you know, here's my what is your.
I slept, but my heart was awake.
This verse is in there for areason first is in there for a
reason.
Pastor Mo (03:05):
What are you supposed to get from that?
I what I get from that.
The biggest thing is thatsomething in her heart is
troubled.
And then here comes the husbandknocking on the door, and then,
even after he knocks on thedoor, for some reason, she's
still not about it right and ittakes him showing her that he
cares about her through what hedoes and he leaves murr on the
doorknob.
And that is what gets her to saymy heart is thrilled within me.
(03:26):
So there's this back and forththat she has within herself.
That's why later she says mysoul failed me because she knew
she should have gotten up.
And then later, when herfriends ask her, hey, are you
sure like you even want this guyshe's?
She goes off and says among tenthousands there is not another
for me.
Pastor Plek (03:46):
So I think that's the big point and I think the
art here is he's trying toconvey she can't sleep because
there's something wrong.
So the poem, the song, bringsout I was sleeping, but my heart
was awake you know, like kindof a you know you get into the
(04:08):
song right and like she's reallyfeeling the pain and the pangs
of that rage of sorrow, wow,yeah, thanks for really making
that come alive for us.
Pastor Holland (04:18):
Listen, I think what happens for a lot of us is.
Pastor Plek (04:21):
We don't understand the poetry emotion here.
She's sleeping, but awake.
She can't sleep because there'ssomething not right and a sound
my beloved is knocking, sayingopen to me my sister, my love,
my dove, my perfect one for myhead is what would do my locks
with the drops of the night.
I love that because he's likeI'm finally home after a long
(04:43):
days of work and I, like you,thought he was out working or
something and probably had saidhe would be at home a certain
time but didn't make it.
And she's fired up, pissed offabout it, and she's like you're
gonna pay for that.
Yeah, I'm not moving, I'm notgonna get my feet dirty for you.
That's right.
Have you ever had your wife notget her feet dirty for you?
Pastor Holland (05:06):
You know what my wife loves to serve me and get
her feet dirty for me, and Icannot recall a time right now
when she refused, that that's agood answer.
Pastor Plek (05:16):
That was a really good answer.
Pastor Mo (05:17):
Yeah, well done.
Pastor Plek (05:19):
Yeah, I think we've all experienced not wanting to
get up.
I know none of you have donethis, but I've of some other
guys that, like when the babywould start crying, you just
fake sleeping and then like, jaban elbow back and then like, oh
, you're like rolling over andsleep and then she has to get up
and go do it because that's,you know, it's like her job or
(05:41):
something.
Pastor Holland (05:41):
Can I share something?
Actually Okay so confession Oneof my biggest kind of like pet
peeves in marriage would be whenit's bedtime, it's time to go
to sleep and I've brushed myteeth, taken a shower.
I'm like I'm so tired, I plugmy phone in, everything's just
(06:04):
kind of ready, and then I laydown and I'm like my head hits
the pillow and you're at thatmoment yeah, my wife would say
can you get me a glass of water?
and while you're up, can youfind my charger?
I thought, and can you?
You know, and it's like allthese things where I'm like man,
I was literally just in theother room you know, if you
(06:25):
would have just asked me aminute ago, right, but you
waited until I'm in.
That, like bliss of, I'm aboutto fall asleep, you know.
Pastor Mo (06:32):
Yeah.
Pastor Holland (06:32):
And I would get so annoyed and there would be
times where you know I'd be likejust die to yourself, just do
it.
Pastor Mo (06:37):
And then there'd be other times where, like no,
you're standing my ground.
That that's right.
You get your charger.
Pastor Plek (06:42):
Get your charger.
Pastor Holland (06:43):
Just you know, you're, just, you're up, you're
not even tired, you're like onyour phone, look at it, you know
, and but so but then you know Iwas like you know what I?
I made a decision a while backwhere I didn't like that, the
times where I stood, my and Iwas like, no, I'm not going to
you serve.
I want to have this be a waythat I love and serve and bless
my wife.
(07:03):
So I made a commitment, I toldher, I said no matter what, no
matter how tired I am, what itis, I'm always going to say yes.
If you ask me for something andit's going to take the fight
out of my head of like, do I doit or do I say it, it's just, my
answer is always yes.
Pastor Mo (07:25):
And I actually say, as you wish, princess bride,
yeah, I do the same thing.
Pastor Holland (07:26):
So I just say, as you wish, and now, no matter
what, just a little bit, wow, Ialways do it, and um.
And so I think she felt lovedand blessed by that and also
she's a little bit moreconscious.
She's like I know he's gonnasay yes I don't want to put that
, I'm just gonna do it myselfsometimes and it's.
It's made the whole thing.
It's completely removed that petpeeve from our marriage oh, wow
and I when say yes, she feelsblessed by it and I get to love
and serve her.
And there's other times whereshe goes.
(07:47):
You know what?
I'm not going to have him dothat.
I'm going to do it myself.
Pastor Plek (07:50):
Well, there you go.
Look at that.
Pastor Holland (07:51):
It's been a blessing.
Pastor Plek (07:51):
Yeah, I thought you were going to say, and she
never asked again.
Pastor Holland (07:55):
No, she still.
She knows that yes, now, and soshe utilizes that.
Pastor Plek (08:08):
But she doesn't.
She doesn't actually ask asmuch as she used to, just
knowing, yeah, yeah, I, I think,uh, usually, um, I, there's a
light that's left on that shesenses, and then, when I'm about
to go to bed, I'll, I am nowtasked to go get it.
I should probably do a betterjob of being very joyful about
that, as you wish, as you wish.
And the other thing I need to bebetter joyful at is when I'm
about to pass out, have a sleep,and that's the time she decides
(08:30):
to bring up a really bro,difficult conversation yes, yes
it's like the moment where, likeyou know the whole time, we
could add yeah, there there islike 30, 40 minutes of like us
in the same room but, nothingwas brought up about this
particular topic, and then shewaits until I'm almost.
It's like hey, I've beenthinking and I'm like oh my,
(08:52):
what happened to the 45 minutesbefore this moment right now?
Pastor Mo (08:55):
What's going on?
You've experienced that All thetime.
Pastor Plek (08:58):
It's a challenge.
I definitely can understandthis woman.
Pastor Mo (09:02):
As you wish.
As you wish.
Pastor Plek (09:05):
As you, as you wish , as you wish, yeah.
Pastor Mo (09:08):
As you wish.
Which is funny, because for herit's like man I don't want to
have sex with you right now butfor the guy it's like man.
I don't want to talk about thisright now.
It's the complete opposite,right?
That is a great point.
I never thought about that.
Pastor Plek (09:18):
That is dang it.
Wow, that's wild.
Pastor Mo (09:20):
I missed it.
Pastor Plek (09:21):
That is like totally.
Pastor Mo (09:22):
That's it, yeah.
Pastor Plek (09:24):
Yeah, wow, I would have never thought Like.
That just brings it alltogether for me?
Pastor Mo (09:30):
Yeah, it does.
Pastor Plek (09:31):
Like women don't want to have sex.
Like at the last second.
Yep, they're thinking whydidn't you not prepare this,
talk about it, initiate?
You're waiting until this verysecond when I'm about to pass
out.
And for women, they startconversations when a man is
about to pass out Yep.
Pastor Holland (09:49):
That's blew my mind, yep Right there, and
that's why, if each person inthe couple just takes on the
mindset of as you wish.
Pastor Plek (09:56):
Everybody wins, everybody wins, everybody wins.
Well, that's because 1Corinthians 7.3, rend the
affection due to one another.
There you go, or as the ESVsays, just give up the conjugal
rights.
Just right to it, right to itman.
Okay so let's talk through thenhis response.
(10:16):
I really love the way youbrought this up on Sunday with,
like my beloved put his hand tothe latch and my heart was
thrilled within me.
I rose to open to my belovedLike how long did it take her to
get to the door?
That's the question.
Like she could have been likehey, I'm so glad you're here,
but she I don't know if the bolttook a while to and then gets
it on and then she opens thedoor and she doesn't know where
(10:37):
he is.
Yeah, and that's she said.
My soul failed me when he spoke, meaning she could have spoken
up Yep.
But she didn't.
What do you think that wasabout?
Pastor Mo (10:52):
She's just regretting it, she's just like dang it.
You know, I took too long toget to the door.
I mean she sees him putting hishand through the latch with
Murr.
So she could have right therebeen like oh man, like come on
in, you know whatever.
So there are just so many timeswhere she could have said
something and she doesn't.
Pastor Plek (11:11):
Yeah, I love what you said.
On Sunday they kept missingeach other.
I think that's a real difficultpart of relationship when you
keep missing one another, yep.
Okay, then transition to theWatchmen.
The Watchmen found.
I know it's not about policebrutality or it's not about any
of that, but what do you thinkthat the point is?
(11:34):
She gets there's barriers, shegets hurt Yep, what is it?
Pastor Mo (11:39):
There's consequences to your actions.
Pastor Plek (11:41):
There's consequences to not reaching out
.
Pastor Mo (11:47):
Yeah, because he did all the right things, he was
sweet, he used good words, heshowed her a gift, he waited for
a little bit.
So it's just like when yourspouse pursues you in all the
right ways and you don't respond, there's going to be some sort
of internal turmoil probably.
Pastor Plek (12:08):
One of the things we talk about is that this
passage of Scripture isinterpreted as allegory, literal
or typology.
The one thing I thought wasinteresting, because you're not
going to find this about Jesusanywhere.
I sought him, but I didn't findhim.
That's exactly right, I was likewhat do you do with that?
I called him, but he gave noanswer.
Seek and you will find, clearlyis what the scripture says.
(12:33):
Uh, and I don't want to.
Sometimes it may feel like he'snot answering, but I I I
thought that was an interestingpiece right here.
As the alec, what?
How do people who interpretthis allegorically, how do you
reconcile?
I sought him, but didn't findhim.
Now ultimately she does.
Pastor Mo (12:53):
Yeah.
Pastor Plek (12:54):
But she has to be like hey, call the friends.
Have you seen him?
Pastor Mo (12:57):
Yeah.
Pastor Plek (12:58):
I just don't know.
Maybe that's like, if you'rehaving a hard time with God, get
the church around you to rallyaround prayer.
But, man, it seems like thatthat's a miss on the allegorical
interpretation.
Pastor Mo (13:11):
Maybe it could be.
I mean, like Jeremiah, if youseek me with your whole heart,
so maybe she wasn't seeking withher whole heart.
Pastor Holland (13:17):
Yeah.
Pastor Mo (13:18):
Or this isn't supposed to point to that.
Pastor Plek (13:19):
Right.
Pastor Mo (13:20):
Or not at all, or like sometimes.
In the Old Testament it sayslike you will seek me or you
will call out to me, but I willnot answer you right, like
that's the thing.
Pastor Plek (13:27):
Right, yeah, that's what the wicked now right.
Pastor Mo (13:31):
So that's allegory, I can be interpreted right, I
guess like hey, if you, if youforsake him enough, he gives you
up to your own ways, romans one, and then if you try to seek
him, he cannot be found in thatmoment or whatever, but if you
seek him enough, even if you'rethe wicked, he will answer,
which which he does.
Yeah, so that's how, I don'tknow.
That's the most I can do, she'sokay, that's good.
Pastor Plek (13:52):
Um, hon, what else did you get out of this text
here?
Um, I like how they bring upthe, the community.
What is your?
They go.
She says hey, daughters,jerusalem, you see him yeah let
him know I'm sick with love.
And then the other's like whatdo you mean?
You're sick with love.
What is your beloved more thananother beloved?
Oh, most beautiful among women.
You can have anybody you want.
(14:13):
Where do you think she's goingwith that?
Pastor Holland (14:16):
The person asking the question or her
answer.
Pastor Plek (14:19):
The others, the others people, I guess daughters
of Jerusalem.
Pastor Holland (14:25):
Yeah, you don't get an explanation of their
intentions here.
Are they trying to slam, arethey being like, what's so great
about this guy?
Or are they trying to draw outand remind her?
So which way did you go withthat, mo?
Pastor Mo (14:43):
Draw out and remind her yeah.
Because it sounds like what isyour beloved?
Pastor Holland (14:48):
more this guy you're into.
He's not that great like.
Move on you know, but umthroughout the song.
The others are really like.
They're really more of like apositive voice right, yeah and
um it's, it's kind of a mix,like they're.
They're into the relationshipand supportive of it, but also
they're listening to therelationship and taking advice
(15:08):
from it, and so it seems morelike genuine curiosity and
trying to draw out like, okay,remember again or tell us again
why this person is special toyou um and which she does.
So, um, I think that's animportant role for um in terms
of relationship, you can, youcan go um, you know, uh, uh,
like a dating relationshiprelationship, or you can go to
(15:29):
your relationship with Christ.
But the role of the church ineach of those things is to like
draw out and remind you what isit about this person that has
drawn you to them?
Pastor Mo (15:37):
Is it good Is?
Pastor Holland (15:38):
it worthy, is it you know something in terms of
a dating relationship?
You know?
Hey, tell me again, why is itthat you're into this person?
Is it that they love Christ?
Is it that they're a godlyperson?
Or, hey, remember again why youfollowed Jesus in the first
place, like what was it abouthim that you know brought you in
, that drew you in?
And remember again, you knowyour desire for Jesus.
(16:00):
So I think it works both thoseways, yeah.
Pastor Plek (16:03):
That is good.
I also, you know, when I thinkof this makes me think of
Revelation, because it talksabout his arms, like Rod's ivory
Now granted, in Revelation it'slike he's bronzed, yeah, so, so
different.
But then also, like the Churchof Ephesus lost their first love
, like you have all the rightdoctrine, all the right whatever
(16:23):
, and yet you're not, you haveno love for me.
So I kind of appreciated thataspect, that a conflict, because
there's always pointing towardsChrist and the church, right,
because of Ephesians 5 makesevery marriage about Christ and
the church.
And so I do think there issomething there of like when she
(16:45):
reminds him, it's like, hey,you are classy, you are strong,
you're protective, you've got itall taken care of and this is
my beloved and this is my friend.
Pastor Mo (16:57):
I thought that was a sweet way to kind of land the
plane.
Pastor Plek (17:01):
And she's like oh, thank you, daughters of
Jerusalem, here's all thereasons why I love him, and then
that's where they're like wewill seek him with you, which we
find out in chapter 6.
So, anyway, any other thoughtson Song of Solomon, chapter 5?
Any other marriage advice wecan dole out here?
(17:21):
Keep short accounts.
I like how she doesn't go backto her bed and go.
Pastor Holland (17:32):
Eh, he'll figure itself out.
Pastor Plek (17:35):
She's like I want resolution to this Now, on the
same hand, going out and chasingthe streets, and it's dangerous
when what we find out is he'sjust in the garden.
We find out oh, where is he?
Oh, he's actually in the garden.
And you, you know, we find outlike, oh, where is he?
Oh, he's actually in the garden.
And you went running throughthe streets because you were
emotionally compromised throughthe whole thing and he's been
(17:55):
here the whole time.
Pastor Holland (17:56):
You just missed him again.
Pastor Plek (17:58):
Like what's wrong?
Like you've got to like, pullyourself together and think
logically, not that he's chasingafter another woman but that
he's just going.
You know, he's gonna go back tothe garden where he was, uh,
and yeah, his hair is a littlewet because he's been out all
night, but I I think there'sthat part of it where sometimes
(18:18):
in a relationship you can mindread and sort of like assume,
assume, aka assume the, theworst that your spouse is doing
yeah, so assume the worst.
So she goes to assume the worst.
They must be out gallivantingaround because she lost her
chance and he's way more godlythan that.
(18:39):
And so I think sometimes whenwe get emotionally compromised,
sad, hurt, whatever.
We then go to the worst casescenario, which is kind of what
she does here as opposed to.
My husband would be doing theright thing.
Where's the most logical placefor him to be?
Pastor Holland (18:56):
Yeah, and I love as well just verse 5, that my
hands dripped with myrrh, myfingers with liquid myrrh on the
handles of the bolt.
That, when she didn't get up,when she, you know, ignored him,
his um efforts to, you know,come to her to love her, he, he
(19:18):
left a blessing there, um thething that has represented their
relationship myrrh right.
That has represented hispresence, his love, his
affection for her.
Um, he leaves a blessing forher.
And so I think, just a reminderand encouragement, a message to
the husbands, like when youfeel like I'm trying to love my
wife, I'm trying to serve her,I'm trying to lead, she's not
(19:39):
receiving it or you know, she'sstill treating me this way, like
if, if you're struggling with,you, know the way your, your
wife is following your lead orreceiving your love.
I think this is a goodencouragement, just to remember
always leave a blessing, neverreturn reviling for reviling,
yeah.
Pastor Plek (19:57):
I thought what you did on Sunday was great.
With that, you brought up thatexact point.
Pastor Mo (20:01):
And.
Pastor Plek (20:01):
I wonder what's a practical?
way that we can apply this?
What are some ways that that wecan apply this?
What are some ways that, as youwish, with your wife, but what
are some ways that, when there'sfriction, that you leave a
blessing for her to linger, withwhich I love that?
I mean, how can we as menbecause I feel like I always
(20:24):
bring it up in my marriagecoaching there's three types of
couples.
There are couples that arepursuing each other.
I there's three types ofcouples.
They're couples that arepursuing each other.
I call that the italian couplebecause they're usually pursuing
each other very loudly.
There's the victorian couple,where they're like, not pursuing
each other, where they're bothavoiding each other.
And then there's the americancouple.
Uh, that one person is nagging,the other person is giving them
space, and what's happeninghere is the husband realizes the
(20:49):
rejection and he's not going toforce himself, but he leaves a
blessing.
And I'm trying to think through, like, how can we as Christian
men, when there is hurt, leave ablessing and maybe you can't
get too specific, because thenit loses its?
yeah reality, but maybe leave ablessing yeah, cook a meal
(21:11):
flowers there you go, uh, do thelaundry do whatever like
normally is her, whatever role,job, whatever.
Pastor Holland (21:18):
Maybe you'd take the initiative, maybe plan the
date night um, also resist theurge to be petty, yeah, to be
passive, aggressive, to justignore or be rude or, you know,
give the silent treatment, youknow, when all those things,
that kind of all the the petty,sinful, immature stuff that
rises up in your flesh, thatjust to reject that stuff and to
(21:41):
continue to be a loving,consistent, um, uh, uh, yeah,
presence and pursuit of yourlife.
Pastor Plek (21:50):
In the marriage coaching I've done.
It looks like this the woman ishurt because of something the
man did inadvertently, or didn'tdo, or didn't do, or just like
a sin of omission or a sin ofcommission, but it wasn't
intentional.
And then the man gets sofrustrated that he feels he
(22:12):
feels like I can't take that.
She just is walking all overand I didn't even, and then he
rises up and it escalates abattle of like world war three.
And now he's like oh, prisonrules, all right, let's go.
And I think what happens isthat couples create a battle
where the husband could go hey,I love you and I want the best
(22:32):
for you and for some reasonyou're not receiving it.
I'm going to leave somethinghere for you to remember this by
while I give you some space.
And if there was never anysense of I don't know payback
because I feel like that's whereI got to get the last word in I
got to make sure she knows howwrong she is I don't want to be
(22:54):
a doormat and to lovinglyexpress your care for her, even
when she's coming at you withharshness or even untruth.
I think that becomes supervaluable ultimately for the
relationship, because she'llremember how you treat her, not
when everyone was lovey anddovey, but when she was wrong or
(23:15):
angry or hurt.
Pastor Holland (23:17):
Yeah, and I think sometimes that can be you
know the emotions are rising andstuff and saying, hey, I don't
want to argue with you, I wantto lead us through this.
I don't feel like I'm in a goodplace to do that right now, but
I don't want to just leave italone.
Let's come back to this.
Let's take some time to prayinstead of just being like, well
(23:38):
, screw you, and you know, justlike I'm going to walk away and
I'm not, I'm not going to.
You know, just leaving andgiving no indication of hey, I
want to come back and resolve,but simply just clearly sharing
I love you.
We're going to get through this.
Pastor Plek (23:59):
Let's take some space and some prayer and come
back to it at this time or thisdate.
Pastor Holland (24:01):
I call that a controlled withdrawal.
Pastor Plek (24:03):
I think what's really helpful is where a couple
, they're pursuing each other inanger and then they say, hey,
let's stop to get our focus onthe Lord, and then we can come
back together to resolve this,that is going to be ultimately
the most helpful thing, and ifhe can lead in that by loving
(24:24):
her first and then she canrespond.
I think what's hard for men alot of the times is that they
miss out on the fact that theyare the initiator and the wife
is the responder.
And anytime you get thatbackwards, the husband
responding to his wife puts himin a space that he was not
(24:44):
designed for and it creates anegative outcome.
No matter what, even if he goespassive and says I don't want
to fight, whatever you want,that doesn't help, because I
think what happens a manresponding with, hey, happy wife
, happy life is not what we'retalking about, because I think,
that's the struggle.
Pastor Holland (25:05):
How does a man?
Pastor Plek (25:06):
stay on the initiative to say, because it
could be that his wife is in sinand that she is wrong.
But how can he lovingly calmher, stop her, reorient her,
leave a blessing and then pursueher again in a way that honors
God, his role, her role and Ithink that's where I feel like
most couples struggle is theyget to this place of the woman,
(25:31):
says, well, this is how it'sgoing to be.
And in his head he's like Idon't think that's right, but
happy wife, happy life, I don'twant to battle this anymore, I
don't really care.
Fine, whatever you want to do.
And then she wins, which in amoment feels good for her but
ultimately makes her feel lesssecure and she's going to battle
even more as they go, makes herfeel less secure and she's
(25:53):
going to battle even more asthey go.
I think that becomes the hardspot.
And so for the husband to say,hey, we're going to stop this
right now, we're not going tocontinue battling and I'm not
going to engage with you.
I want to love you through this.
We're going to come back atwhatever time to reconnect about
this.
There's children around rightnow.
I want to parent them reallywell.
And that might anyway.
I know there's this.
It gets hard to deal withspecifics, but the one thing I
(26:14):
don't want men to do is to walkaway from this like just
whatever she wants.
That's not the answer.
Pastor Holland (26:20):
Yeah, that's passivity, that's not leading,
that's abdicating your role.
Pastor Plek (26:24):
You wanted this.
You know you get what you want,and so I think that's hard and
it's tempting.
Obviously it's very tempting.
Pastor Holland (26:33):
Yeah, I mean, I think we've all been tempted
with that, or we've been guiltyof it, sure, yeah.
Pastor Plek (26:38):
I think there's the consistent sort of like I just
want the fighting to stop andthen the cost cannot be.
I'll just respond to you.
And that's where you find abeaten man in a home where he is
not leading and the wife iscarrying that weight, and it
(26:59):
makes for things being out ofsync.
And so I think one of thethings that might be wise if
that's you then getting to aplace where you know talk to a
pastor, talk to someone who'sgodly, and say how can I
initiate, even when it's feelinglike I'm constantly responding
to her gripes or her whatever'sand you're on your heels all the
time, it's probably because atsome point you check out.
(27:20):
So you check out into yourphone, you check out into sports
, you check out into the news,you check out to work out
whatever, and you don't evercome back to engage and lead.
That becomes problematic, yeah,and you don't ever come back to
engage and lead.
That becomes problematic, yeah,so, yeah, amen, yeah, all right
, hey, any other thoughts onthat?
Hey, thanks so much forwatching.
If you have any questions, wetalk about faith, culture,
(27:43):
everything in between you cantext us at 737-231-0625.
We'll go to the pastor club.
We'd love to hear from you,from our house to yours.
Have an awesome.
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec, andjoining me in studio is none
other than muhammad ali.
Hello, pastor mo.
It preached our sermon onsunday and then also from the
east side, pastor hollandgg, howare we doing?
Pastor Holland (00:23):
Doing great.
Thanks, Chris.
Pastor Plek (00:25):
Well, you know, awesome experience this past
Sunday we got into Song ofSolomon, chapter 5.
And the first couple versestalked about really the previous
week.
It ended with eat, friends,drink and be drunk with love,
but then things after thehoneymoon experience of a lot of
(00:46):
sexual intimacy then jumps intoverse two.
Take it away from there, mo.
What did you experience or whatdo you think is going on in
this story?
In fact, I have a questionoriented around verses 2 through
7 of chapter 5.
The question is in the book ofSong of Solomon, are verses
(01:09):
chapter 5, 2 through 7 a dream,because it starts with I slept
and he said he's looking upConstable's notes, which, if
you're familiar with Dr TomConstable, one of my professors
from Dallas Seminary, he saysit's a dream?
Pastor Mo (01:27):
What say ye Muhammad?
Maybe it doesn't matter, to meit doesn't matter.
Pastor Plek (01:31):
It can be.
One of my favorite answers inseminary was could be, could be,
could be, and then I would getso angry because I would be like
, no, just tell me the answer.
And he'd be like could be.
Pastor Holland (01:44):
I slept, but my heart was awake, yeah.
Pastor Mo (01:47):
And the slept in the Hebrew.
When I looked it up, it alsocould mean I laid down and my
heart was awake.
It's the same word.
Pastor Plek (01:55):
Well, that's frustrating.
Pastor Mo (01:56):
Yeah, it doesn't matter.
But why doesn't it matter it?
Pastor Holland (01:59):
doesn't change anything.
Explain yourself.
You're saying the Bible doesn'tmatter.
Pastor Mo (02:03):
No, no, no, it doesn't matter whether she was
awake or she's dreaming it,because what happens in the
actual thing, in the actual text, that's what matters.
Pastor Plek (02:16):
To be fair, this is a poem, it's a song.
Pastor Mo (02:21):
That's like asking the question.
The thing that I brought up iswhen the guards beat her up.
Was that a good thing or a badthing?
Pastor Plek (02:29):
it doesn't matter that's not the point.
It could have been corruptguards.
Yes, they were getting paid off, but the important thing is she
got beat down.
Pastor Mo (02:36):
It was painful yeah, or or they thought she was a
prostitute or a virgin sneakingaround out of her dad's house,
and then then they did do good.
Pastor Plek (02:43):
Who knows, that doesn't matter, it doesn't
matter.
It doesn't matter Like, stopworrying about, like the
policeman.
Pastor Mo (02:48):
Yeah.
Pastor Plek (02:49):
Is this a police brutality verse?
No, it's not.
Pastor Mo (02:51):
No no.
Pastor Plek (02:53):
Okay so.
Pastor Holland (02:54):
Okay, but you know, here's my what is your.
I slept, but my heart was awake.
This verse is in there for areason first is in there for a
reason.
Pastor Mo (03:05):
What are you supposed to get from that?
I what I get from that.
The biggest thing is thatsomething in her heart is
troubled.
And then here comes the husbandknocking on the door, and then,
even after he knocks on thedoor, for some reason, she's
still not about it right and ittakes him showing her that he
cares about her through what hedoes and he leaves murr on the
doorknob.
And that is what gets her to saymy heart is thrilled within me.
(03:26):
So there's this back and forththat she has within herself.
That's why later she says mysoul failed me because she knew
she should have gotten up.
And then later, when herfriends ask her, hey, are you
sure like you even want this guyshe's?
She goes off and says among tenthousands there is not another
for me.
Pastor Plek (03:46):
So I think that's the big point and I think the
art here is he's trying toconvey she can't sleep because
there's something wrong.
So the poem, the song, bringsout I was sleeping, but my heart
was awake you know, like kindof a you know you get into the
(04:08):
song right and like she's reallyfeeling the pain and the pangs
of that rage of sorrow, wow,yeah, thanks for really making
that come alive for us.
Pastor Holland (04:18):
Listen, I think what happens for a lot of us is.
Pastor Plek (04:21):
We don't understand the poetry emotion here.
She's sleeping, but awake.
She can't sleep because there'ssomething not right and a sound
my beloved is knocking, sayingopen to me my sister, my love,
my dove, my perfect one for myhead is what would do my locks
with the drops of the night.
I love that because he's likeI'm finally home after a long
(04:43):
days of work and I, like you,thought he was out working or
something and probably had saidhe would be at home a certain
time but didn't make it.
And she's fired up, pissed offabout it, and she's like you're
gonna pay for that.
Yeah, I'm not moving, I'm notgonna get my feet dirty for you.
That's right.
Have you ever had your wife notget her feet dirty for you?
Pastor Holland (05:06):
You know what my wife loves to serve me and get
her feet dirty for me, and Icannot recall a time right now
when she refused, that that's agood answer.
Pastor Plek (05:16):
That was a really good answer.
Pastor Mo (05:17):
Yeah, well done.
Pastor Plek (05:19):
Yeah, I think we've all experienced not wanting to
get up.
I know none of you have donethis, but I've of some other
guys that, like when the babywould start crying, you just
fake sleeping and then like, jaban elbow back and then like, oh
, you're like rolling over andsleep and then she has to get up
and go do it because that's,you know, it's like her job or
(05:41):
something.
Pastor Holland (05:41):
Can I share something?
Actually Okay so confession Oneof my biggest kind of like pet
peeves in marriage would be whenit's bedtime, it's time to go
to sleep and I've brushed myteeth, taken a shower.
I'm like I'm so tired, I plugmy phone in, everything's just
(06:04):
kind of ready, and then I laydown and I'm like my head hits
the pillow and you're at thatmoment yeah, my wife would say
can you get me a glass of water?
and while you're up, can youfind my charger?
I thought, and can you?
You know, and it's like allthese things where I'm like man,
I was literally just in theother room you know, if you
(06:25):
would have just asked me aminute ago, right, but you
waited until I'm in.
That, like bliss of, I'm aboutto fall asleep, you know.
Pastor Mo (06:32):
Yeah.
Pastor Holland (06:32):
And I would get so annoyed and there would be
times where you know I'd be likejust die to yourself, just do
it.
Pastor Mo (06:37):
And then there'd be other times where, like no,
you're standing my ground.
That that's right.
You get your charger.
Pastor Plek (06:42):
Get your charger.
Pastor Holland (06:43):
Just you know, you're, just, you're up, you're
not even tired, you're like onyour phone, look at it, you know
, and but so but then you know Iwas like you know what I?
I made a decision a while backwhere I didn't like that, the
times where I stood, my and Iwas like, no, I'm not going to
you serve.
I want to have this be a waythat I love and serve and bless
my wife.
(07:03):
So I made a commitment, I toldher, I said no matter what, no
matter how tired I am, what itis, I'm always going to say yes.
If you ask me for something andit's going to take the fight
out of my head of like, do I doit or do I say it, it's just, my
answer is always yes.
Pastor Mo (07:25):
And I actually say, as you wish, princess bride,
yeah, I do the same thing.
Pastor Holland (07:26):
So I just say, as you wish, and now, no matter
what, just a little bit, wow, Ialways do it, and um.
And so I think she felt lovedand blessed by that and also
she's a little bit moreconscious.
She's like I know he's gonnasay yes I don't want to put that
, I'm just gonna do it myselfsometimes and it's.
It's made the whole thing.
It's completely removed that petpeeve from our marriage oh, wow
and I when say yes, she feelsblessed by it and I get to love
and serve her.
And there's other times whereshe goes.
(07:47):
You know what?
I'm not going to have him dothat.
I'm going to do it myself.
Pastor Plek (07:50):
Well, there you go.
Look at that.
Pastor Holland (07:51):
It's been a blessing.
Pastor Plek (07:51):
Yeah, I thought you were going to say, and she
never asked again.
Pastor Holland (07:55):
No, she still.
She knows that yes, now, and soshe utilizes that.
Pastor Plek (08:08):
But she doesn't.
She doesn't actually ask asmuch as she used to, just
knowing, yeah, yeah, I, I think,uh, usually, um, I, there's a
light that's left on that shesenses, and then, when I'm about
to go to bed, I'll, I am nowtasked to go get it.
I should probably do a betterjob of being very joyful about
that, as you wish, as you wish.
And the other thing I need to bebetter joyful at is when I'm
about to pass out, have a sleep,and that's the time she decides
(08:30):
to bring up a really bro,difficult conversation yes, yes
it's like the moment where, likeyou know the whole time, we
could add yeah, there there islike 30, 40 minutes of like us
in the same room but, nothingwas brought up about this
particular topic, and then shewaits until I'm almost.
It's like hey, I've beenthinking and I'm like oh my,
(08:52):
what happened to the 45 minutesbefore this moment right now?
Pastor Mo (08:55):
What's going on?
You've experienced that All thetime.
Pastor Plek (08:58):
It's a challenge.
I definitely can understandthis woman.
Pastor Mo (09:02):
As you wish.
As you wish.
Pastor Plek (09:05):
As you, as you wish , as you wish, yeah.
Pastor Mo (09:08):
As you wish.
Which is funny, because for herit's like man I don't want to
have sex with you right now butfor the guy it's like man.
I don't want to talk about thisright now.
It's the complete opposite,right?
That is a great point.
I never thought about that.
Pastor Plek (09:18):
That is dang it.
Wow, that's wild.
Pastor Mo (09:20):
I missed it.
Pastor Plek (09:21):
That is like totally.
Pastor Mo (09:22):
That's it, yeah.
Pastor Plek (09:24):
Yeah, wow, I would have never thought Like.
That just brings it alltogether for me?
Pastor Mo (09:30):
Yeah, it does.
Pastor Plek (09:31):
Like women don't want to have sex.
Like at the last second.
Yep, they're thinking whydidn't you not prepare this,
talk about it, initiate?
You're waiting until this verysecond when I'm about to pass
out.
And for women, they startconversations when a man is
about to pass out Yep.
Pastor Holland (09:49):
That's blew my mind, yep Right there, and
that's why, if each person inthe couple just takes on the
mindset of as you wish.
Pastor Plek (09:56):
Everybody wins, everybody wins, everybody wins.
Well, that's because 1Corinthians 7.3, rend the
affection due to one another.
There you go, or as the ESVsays, just give up the conjugal
rights.
Just right to it, right to itman.
Okay so let's talk through thenhis response.
(10:16):
I really love the way youbrought this up on Sunday with,
like my beloved put his hand tothe latch and my heart was
thrilled within me.
I rose to open to my belovedLike how long did it take her to
get to the door?
That's the question.
Like she could have been likehey, I'm so glad you're here,
but she I don't know if the bolttook a while to and then gets
it on and then she opens thedoor and she doesn't know where
(10:37):
he is.
Yeah, and that's she said.
My soul failed me when he spoke, meaning she could have spoken
up Yep.
But she didn't.
What do you think that wasabout?
Pastor Mo (10:52):
She's just regretting it, she's just like dang it.
You know, I took too long toget to the door.
I mean she sees him putting hishand through the latch with
Murr.
So she could have right therebeen like oh man, like come on
in, you know whatever.
So there are just so many timeswhere she could have said
something and she doesn't.
Pastor Plek (11:11):
Yeah, I love what you said.
On Sunday they kept missingeach other.
I think that's a real difficultpart of relationship when you
keep missing one another, yep.
Okay, then transition to theWatchmen.
The Watchmen found.
I know it's not about policebrutality or it's not about any
of that, but what do you thinkthat the point is?
(11:34):
She gets there's barriers, shegets hurt Yep, what is it?
Pastor Mo (11:39):
There's consequences to your actions.
Pastor Plek (11:41):
There's consequences to not reaching out
.
Pastor Mo (11:47):
Yeah, because he did all the right things, he was
sweet, he used good words, heshowed her a gift, he waited for
a little bit.
So it's just like when yourspouse pursues you in all the
right ways and you don't respond, there's going to be some sort
of internal turmoil probably.
Pastor Plek (12:08):
One of the things we talk about is that this
passage of Scripture isinterpreted as allegory, literal
or typology.
The one thing I thought wasinteresting, because you're not
going to find this about Jesusanywhere.
I sought him, but I didn't findhim.
That's exactly right, I was likewhat do you do with that?
I called him, but he gave noanswer.
Seek and you will find, clearlyis what the scripture says.
(12:33):
Uh, and I don't want to.
Sometimes it may feel like he'snot answering, but I I I
thought that was an interestingpiece right here.
As the alec, what?
How do people who interpretthis allegorically, how do you
reconcile?
I sought him, but didn't findhim.
Now ultimately she does.
Pastor Mo (12:53):
Yeah.
Pastor Plek (12:54):
But she has to be like hey, call the friends.
Have you seen him?
Pastor Mo (12:57):
Yeah.
Pastor Plek (12:58):
I just don't know.
Maybe that's like, if you'rehaving a hard time with God, get
the church around you to rallyaround prayer.
But, man, it seems like thatthat's a miss on the allegorical
interpretation.
Pastor Mo (13:11):
Maybe it could be.
I mean, like Jeremiah, if youseek me with your whole heart,
so maybe she wasn't seeking withher whole heart.
Pastor Holland (13:17):
Yeah.
Pastor Mo (13:18):
Or this isn't supposed to point to that.
Pastor Plek (13:19):
Right.
Pastor Mo (13:20):
Or not at all, or like sometimes.
In the Old Testament it sayslike you will seek me or you
will call out to me, but I willnot answer you right, like
that's the thing.
Pastor Plek (13:27):
Right, yeah, that's what the wicked now right.
Pastor Mo (13:31):
So that's allegory, I can be interpreted right, I
guess like hey, if you, if youforsake him enough, he gives you
up to your own ways, romans one, and then if you try to seek
him, he cannot be found in thatmoment or whatever, but if you
seek him enough, even if you'rethe wicked, he will answer,
which which he does.
Yeah, so that's how, I don'tknow.
That's the most I can do, she'sokay, that's good.
Pastor Plek (13:52):
Um, hon, what else did you get out of this text
here?
Um, I like how they bring upthe, the community.
What is your?
They go.
She says hey, daughters,jerusalem, you see him yeah let
him know I'm sick with love.
And then the other's like whatdo you mean?
You're sick with love.
What is your beloved more thananother beloved?
Oh, most beautiful among women.
You can have anybody you want.
(14:13):
Where do you think she's goingwith that?
Pastor Holland (14:16):
The person asking the question or her
answer.
Pastor Plek (14:19):
The others, the others people, I guess daughters
of Jerusalem.
Pastor Holland (14:25):
Yeah, you don't get an explanation of their
intentions here.
Are they trying to slam, arethey being like, what's so great
about this guy?
Or are they trying to draw outand remind her?
So which way did you go withthat, mo?
Pastor Mo (14:43):
Draw out and remind her yeah.
Because it sounds like what isyour beloved?
Pastor Holland (14:48):
more this guy you're into.
He's not that great like.
Move on you know, but umthroughout the song.
The others are really like.
They're really more of like apositive voice right, yeah and
um it's, it's kind of a mix,like they're.
They're into the relationshipand supportive of it, but also
they're listening to therelationship and taking advice
(15:08):
from it, and so it seems morelike genuine curiosity and
trying to draw out like, okay,remember again or tell us again
why this person is special toyou um and which she does.
So, um, I think that's animportant role for um in terms
of relationship, you can, youcan go um, you know, uh, uh,
like a dating relationshiprelationship, or you can go to
(15:29):
your relationship with Christ.
But the role of the church ineach of those things is to like
draw out and remind you what isit about this person that has
drawn you to them?
Pastor Mo (15:37):
Is it good Is?
Pastor Holland (15:38):
it worthy, is it you know something in terms of
a dating relationship?
You know?
Hey, tell me again, why is itthat you're into this person?
Is it that they love Christ?
Is it that they're a godlyperson?
Or, hey, remember again why youfollowed Jesus in the first
place, like what was it abouthim that you know brought you in
, that drew you in?
And remember again, you knowyour desire for Jesus.
(16:00):
So I think it works both thoseways, yeah.
Pastor Plek (16:03):
That is good.
I also, you know, when I thinkof this makes me think of
Revelation, because it talksabout his arms, like Rod's ivory
Now granted, in Revelation it'slike he's bronzed, yeah, so, so
different.
But then also, like the Churchof Ephesus lost their first love
, like you have all the rightdoctrine, all the right whatever
(16:23):
, and yet you're not, you haveno love for me.
So I kind of appreciated thataspect, that a conflict, because
there's always pointing towardsChrist and the church, right,
because of Ephesians 5 makesevery marriage about Christ and
the church.
And so I do think there issomething there of like when she
(16:45):
reminds him, it's like, hey,you are classy, you are strong,
you're protective, you've got itall taken care of and this is
my beloved and this is my friend.
Pastor Mo (16:57):
I thought that was a sweet way to kind of land the
plane.
Pastor Plek (17:01):
And she's like oh, thank you, daughters of
Jerusalem, here's all thereasons why I love him, and then
that's where they're like wewill seek him with you, which we
find out in chapter 6.
So, anyway, any other thoughtson Song of Solomon, chapter 5?
Any other marriage advice wecan dole out here?
(17:21):
Keep short accounts.
I like how she doesn't go backto her bed and go.
Pastor Holland (17:32):
Eh, he'll figure itself out.
Pastor Plek (17:35):
She's like I want resolution to this Now, on the
same hand, going out and chasingthe streets, and it's dangerous
when what we find out is he'sjust in the garden.
We find out oh, where is he?
Oh, he's actually in the garden.
And you, you know, we find outlike, oh, where is he?
Oh, he's actually in the garden.
And you went running throughthe streets because you were
emotionally compromised throughthe whole thing and he's been
(17:55):
here the whole time.
Pastor Holland (17:56):
You just missed him again.
Pastor Plek (17:58):
Like what's wrong?
Like you've got to like, pullyourself together and think
logically, not that he's chasingafter another woman but that
he's just going.
You know, he's gonna go back tothe garden where he was, uh,
and yeah, his hair is a littlewet because he's been out all
night, but I I think there'sthat part of it where sometimes
(18:18):
in a relationship you can mindread and sort of like assume,
assume, aka assume the, theworst that your spouse is doing
yeah, so assume the worst.
So she goes to assume the worst.
They must be out gallivantingaround because she lost her
chance and he's way more godlythan that.
(18:39):
And so I think sometimes whenwe get emotionally compromised,
sad, hurt, whatever.
We then go to the worst casescenario, which is kind of what
she does here as opposed to.
My husband would be doing theright thing.
Where's the most logical placefor him to be?
Pastor Holland (18:56):
Yeah, and I love as well just verse 5, that my
hands dripped with myrrh, myfingers with liquid myrrh on the
handles of the bolt.
That, when she didn't get up,when she, you know, ignored him,
his um efforts to, you know,come to her to love her, he, he
(19:18):
left a blessing there, um thething that has represented their
relationship myrrh right.
That has represented hispresence, his love, his
affection for her.
Um, he leaves a blessing forher.
And so I think, just a reminderand encouragement, a message to
the husbands, like when youfeel like I'm trying to love my
wife, I'm trying to serve her,I'm trying to lead, she's not
(19:39):
receiving it or you know, she'sstill treating me this way, like
if, if you're struggling with,you, know the way your, your
wife is following your lead orreceiving your love.
I think this is a goodencouragement, just to remember
always leave a blessing, neverreturn reviling for reviling,
yeah.
Pastor Plek (19:57):
I thought what you did on Sunday was great.
With that, you brought up thatexact point.
Pastor Mo (20:01):
And.
Pastor Plek (20:01):
I wonder what's a practical?
way that we can apply this?
What are some ways that that wecan apply this?
What are some ways that, as youwish, with your wife, but what
are some ways that, when there'sfriction, that you leave a
blessing for her to linger, withwhich I love that?
I mean, how can we as menbecause I feel like I always
(20:24):
bring it up in my marriagecoaching there's three types of
couples.
There are couples that arepursuing each other.
I there's three types ofcouples.
They're couples that arepursuing each other.
I call that the italian couplebecause they're usually pursuing
each other very loudly.
There's the victorian couple,where they're like, not pursuing
each other, where they're bothavoiding each other.
And then there's the americancouple.
Uh, that one person is nagging,the other person is giving them
space, and what's happeninghere is the husband realizes the
(20:49):
rejection and he's not going toforce himself, but he leaves a
blessing.
And I'm trying to think through, like, how can we as Christian
men, when there is hurt, leave ablessing and maybe you can't
get too specific, because thenit loses its?
yeah reality, but maybe leave ablessing yeah, cook a meal
(21:11):
flowers there you go, uh, do thelaundry do whatever like
normally is her, whatever role,job, whatever.
Pastor Holland (21:18):
Maybe you'd take the initiative, maybe plan the
date night um, also resist theurge to be petty, yeah, to be
passive, aggressive, to justignore or be rude or, you know,
give the silent treatment, youknow, when all those things,
that kind of all the the petty,sinful, immature stuff that
rises up in your flesh, thatjust to reject that stuff and to
(21:41):
continue to be a loving,consistent, um, uh, uh, yeah,
presence and pursuit of yourlife.
Pastor Plek (21:50):
In the marriage coaching I've done.
It looks like this the woman ishurt because of something the
man did inadvertently, or didn'tdo, or didn't do, or just like
a sin of omission or a sin ofcommission, but it wasn't
intentional.
And then the man gets sofrustrated that he feels he
(22:12):
feels like I can't take that.
She just is walking all overand I didn't even, and then he
rises up and it escalates abattle of like world war three.
And now he's like oh, prisonrules, all right, let's go.
And I think what happens isthat couples create a battle
where the husband could go hey,I love you and I want the best
(22:32):
for you and for some reasonyou're not receiving it.
I'm going to leave somethinghere for you to remember this by
while I give you some space.
And if there was never anysense of I don't know payback
because I feel like that's whereI got to get the last word in I
got to make sure she knows howwrong she is I don't want to be
(22:54):
a doormat and to lovinglyexpress your care for her, even
when she's coming at you withharshness or even untruth.
I think that becomes supervaluable ultimately for the
relationship, because she'llremember how you treat her, not
when everyone was lovey anddovey, but when she was wrong or
(23:15):
angry or hurt.
Pastor Holland (23:17):
Yeah, and I think sometimes that can be you
know the emotions are rising andstuff and saying, hey, I don't
want to argue with you, I wantto lead us through this.
I don't feel like I'm in a goodplace to do that right now, but
I don't want to just leave italone.
Let's come back to this.
Let's take some time to prayinstead of just being like, well
(23:38):
, screw you, and you know, justlike I'm going to walk away and
I'm not, I'm not going to.
You know, just leaving andgiving no indication of hey, I
want to come back and resolve,but simply just clearly sharing
I love you.
We're going to get through this.
Pastor Plek (23:59):
Let's take some space and some prayer and come
back to it at this time or thisdate.
Pastor Holland (24:01):
I call that a controlled withdrawal.
Pastor Plek (24:03):
I think what's really helpful is where a couple
, they're pursuing each other inanger and then they say, hey,
let's stop to get our focus onthe Lord, and then we can come
back together to resolve this,that is going to be ultimately
the most helpful thing, and ifhe can lead in that by loving
(24:24):
her first and then she canrespond.
I think what's hard for men alot of the times is that they
miss out on the fact that theyare the initiator and the wife
is the responder.
And anytime you get thatbackwards, the husband
responding to his wife puts himin a space that he was not
(24:44):
designed for and it creates anegative outcome.
No matter what, even if he goespassive and says I don't want
to fight, whatever you want,that doesn't help, because I
think what happens a manresponding with, hey, happy wife
, happy life is not what we'retalking about, because I think,
that's the struggle.
Pastor Holland (25:05):
How does a man?
Pastor Plek (25:06):
stay on the initiative to say, because it
could be that his wife is in sinand that she is wrong.
But how can he lovingly calmher, stop her, reorient her,
leave a blessing and then pursueher again in a way that honors
God, his role, her role and Ithink that's where I feel like
most couples struggle is theyget to this place of the woman,
(25:31):
says, well, this is how it'sgoing to be.
And in his head he's like Idon't think that's right, but
happy wife, happy life, I don'twant to battle this anymore, I
don't really care.
Fine, whatever you want to do.
And then she wins, which in amoment feels good for her but
ultimately makes her feel lesssecure and she's going to battle
even more as they go, makes herfeel less secure and she's
(25:53):
going to battle even more asthey go.
I think that becomes the hardspot.
And so for the husband to say,hey, we're going to stop this
right now, we're not going tocontinue battling and I'm not
going to engage with you.
I want to love you through this.
We're going to come back atwhatever time to reconnect about
this.
There's children around rightnow.
I want to parent them reallywell.
And that might anyway.
I know there's this.
It gets hard to deal withspecifics, but the one thing I
(26:14):
don't want men to do is to walkaway from this like just
whatever she wants.
That's not the answer.
Pastor Holland (26:20):
Yeah, that's passivity, that's not leading,
that's abdicating your role.
Pastor Plek (26:24):
You wanted this.
You know you get what you want,and so I think that's hard and
it's tempting.
Obviously it's very tempting.
Pastor Holland (26:33):
Yeah, I mean, I think we've all been tempted
with that, or we've been guiltyof it, sure, yeah.
Pastor Plek (26:38):
I think there's the consistent sort of like I just
want the fighting to stop andthen the cost cannot be.
I'll just respond to you.
And that's where you find abeaten man in a home where he is
not leading and the wife iscarrying that weight, and it
(26:59):
makes for things being out ofsync.
And so I think one of thethings that might be wise if
that's you then getting to aplace where you know talk to a
pastor, talk to someone who'sgodly, and say how can I
initiate, even when it's feelinglike I'm constantly responding
to her gripes or her whatever'sand you're on your heels all the
time, it's probably because atsome point you check out.
(27:20):
So you check out into yourphone, you check out into sports
, you check out into the news,you check out to work out
whatever, and you don't evercome back to engage and lead.
That becomes problematic, yeah,and you don't ever come back to
engage and lead.
That becomes problematic, yeah,so, yeah, amen, yeah, all right
, hey, any other thoughts onthat?
Hey, thanks so much forwatching.
If you have any questions, wetalk about faith, culture,
(27:43):
everything in between you cantext us at 737-231-0625.
We'll go to the pastor club.
We'd love to hear from you,from our house to yours.
Have an awesome.
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