September 7, 2025 • 46 mins
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When is deception morally justified? It's a question that challenges our understanding of biblical ethics. In this thought-provoking episode, Holland and Chris tackle the fascinating case of Samuel in 1 Samuel 16, where God himself instructs his prophet to conceal his true mission of anointing David as king.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec uh.
Sitting in with me today isnone other than pastor holland
greg how you doing doing greatthanks, chris all right now.
First off, uh, holland preachedfor us this past sunday.
And ho, what did you talk about?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Talked about a little bit of Hebrews 4 and 5, jesus
as our high priest.
So talked about a lot aboutpriests.
Talked about the three officesof prophet, priest and king and
how Hebrews focuses mainly onthe priest, that kings rule
under God over people.
Prophets speak to people onbehalf of God and priests plead
(00:46):
with God on behalf of people.
So the focus in Hebrews isJesus as our high priest, who
pleads with God on our behalf toforgive our sins and offers his
own life as a sacrifice thatdoesn't just ceremonially or
temporarily remove sin, butactually and eternally removes
our sin.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
I love it, or temporarily remove sin, but
actually and eternally removesour sin.
I love it.
Well, all right.
So any key takeaway from that?
Because it was like was thequestion like is Jesus actually
your high priest or are youlooking to someone else to be
your high priest?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah, only by looking to Jesus can we you know what
the author says go withconfidence before the throne of
grace.
Good, if Jesus is your highpriest, then you can go to God
and know for sure you're notgoing to be judged or condemned,
but there is grace and mercyfor you in your time of need.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Yeah, I thought it was great.
I got a lot of positivefeedback from it, specifically
people saying like hey, one ofthe things you talked about was
regular memories made withfamily for family vacations,
regular memories made withfamily for family vacations, and
so that was really encouragingthat a bunch of people now are
thinking about how are theygoing to create memories with
their fam to do a family vacaythat they can remember.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
That's fun.
That was, you know, not like amajor point.
It's an illustration, for youknow the point of Jesus
sympathizing with us and ourweaknesses, and something that
happened with my father-in-lawon vacation this past year.
But, yeah, the fact that theLord used that to encourage
people, praise God.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
You know, sometimes when I preach, people decide to
go to the army and I'm likethat's not what it was about at
all, but I'm glad that that'swhat you got from it.
So the Lord works in mysteriousways through the proclamation
of his word.
Now we had a couple ofquestions come up that actually
are not dealing with Jesus ashigh priest, but dealing with
(02:37):
just someone reading God's wordin their quiet time, which I
100% appreciate.
That you would entrust us witha question like this.
Here's a question I have aquestion about 1 Samuel 16,
verse 4.
The elders of the city came tomeet him trembling and said Do
you come peaceably?
Now, this is rightly dividingthe word of truth.
(02:58):
I just want to say, becausethey are getting into, what does
this verse mean?
And it would seem like a versethat's pretty innocuous, but
here's what the question is whydid they ask if Samuel came
peaceably?
Was there any other way for himto come?
I'm confused by this.
All right, holland, in whatreason do you think a person or
(03:21):
a prophet like Samuel would cometo a city and why would they be
trembling?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Well, so this is on the heels of 1 Samuel 15, where
Saul sins against the Lord andforfeits the kingdom.
Basically and so I think thatis felt by everyone it's like,
man, this was our king, wewanted a king, we wanted Saul,
and now he's sinned before God,he's forfeited the kingdom.
(03:49):
What does this mean?
Speaker 1 (03:51):
And it was a pretty public display Because remember
he had King Agag of the.
Was it the Amorites orMalachites?
Yeah, of the Malachites.
So King Agag of the Malachitesisn't killed, he's brought
before Samuel and Samuel hackshim literally to pieces with a
sword.
(04:11):
And you've got to imagine that.
That story made it throughsocial media really fast.
People were like you're notgoing to believe it.
I saw it with my own eyes.
Just the prophet Samuel.
He's pretty old.
He pulled out a sword and justwent to town on this king.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, so when you have a reputation for hacking
kings to pieces with a sword andthen you show up in a city and
you and everyone knows you knowSaul has sinned Right, and I
think there's just a little fearof like, are you coming here to
hack more people to pieces, yep, or are you coming here in
peace, right?
So I think that's where thequestion is coming from.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah, and they're trembling because they're
willing to do whatever, butthey're kind of worried for
their own families, worried fortheir own whatever.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
And okay, let's just talk about this because it gets
kind of interesting.
He doesn't give him the wholetruth that he's there to anoint
a king, yeah, so basically he's,you know Saul's forfeited the
kingdom.
And the Lord tells him you know, this is in chapter 16, verse
where is it?
Two verse?
One I will send you to Jessethe Bethlehemite, for I have
(05:28):
provided for myself a king amonghis sons.
So the plan is for Samuel to beable to go and, you know,
anoint a new king who would takethe place of Saul.
But he says, go and just tellhim I'm here to sacrifice.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Right.
In fact he says I mean, this isGod talking.
And Samuel?
Well, first Samuel says how canI go If Saul hears that he will
kill me?
And the Lord said take a heiferwith you and say I have come to
sacrifice to the Lord andinvite Jesse to the sacrifice
and I will show you what youshall do and you shall anoint
for me him who I declared you.
So he says don't give them thewhole truth.
(06:04):
Yeah, is that okay?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
If the Lord says it, then it is, you know, but it is
like it's a, you could say it'slike a form of deception, yeah,
and that it is true he does comethere to offer a sacrifice, but
the whole reason of anointing anew king is a bit is veiled
right.
He doesn't give them the fullreason, and so you know, this is
(06:30):
.
I think this is an example ofhow there is.
There is a type of deceptionthat can be moral and righteous,
which sounds weird to say, butyou just said, deception could
be moral and righteous, yeah,and particularly in um times
(06:51):
like uh, uh, situations of likewar or um adversarial situations
where you're coming up againstan enemy, it's it's like
deception is part of how youplay the game and uh like, it's
like deception is part of howyou play the game Like, for
example, in football.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
you could have a fake punt on fourth and long and
launch a pass.
You deceive the other team.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Now do you have to confess that afterward?
Should you confess that?
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Or is that okay In basketball?
You fake left, you go right,you make the guy look like a
fool as he jumps out of hisshoes to stop you, and then you
go and score.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
So the reason that that's not a sin is because
that's part of the game, rightand and in some sense, when it
comes to you know the game of um, you know war, um, deception is
part of the game all right,let's go back to 10 commandments
because this seems like we'relike justifying something to
kind of fit our own.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Like I like playing sports, I don't.
I don't want to give the enemymy battle plans.
I thought transparency ingovernment or what God is doing
was good, and so you're tellingme that might not be always be
the best thing.
But the 10 commandments saysthou shalt not lie, right, does
it?
Does it say that it doesn'tactually say it says you shalt
(08:07):
not bear false witness.
And that's really meaning acourt of law, isn't it Like when
someone says, hey, did Bobthrow the rock through the store
window?
And you're like, yes, bob threwthe rock through the store
window and he didn't.
You are bearing false witness.
Whenever they crucified Jesus,they got worthless fellows to
(08:30):
dishonestly agree but testifyagainst Jesus that he was doing
something evil or illegitimate.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Okay, so there you go .
They have a very hyper-specificform of this commandment Thou
shalt not bear false witnessagainst your neighbor.
Now we would also say, you know, to kind of go on the other
side a little bit, the TenCommandments imply and require
more than what they justexplicitly say.
We know this from Sermon on theMount do not commit adultery,
(09:00):
jesus said.
That actually goes to the heartlevel of even looking lustfully
at another woman that you'renot married to.
We also know that, um, you knowthe, the command to honor your
mother and father.
Um, this command extends out inprinciple to um, honoring all
authority in your life.
Um, that's kind of what youknow honoring the emperor and
the new Testament.
(09:20):
Those commands are based on theprinciple of honoring your
mother and father, those whohave authority over you.
So this is where you know youwould go to statements in the
Bible like God is not a man thathe should lie Right.
Or you know Titus I think it'sTitus, chapter one.
God who cannot lie promisedthis before the world began.
God who cannot lie promisedthis before the world began.
(09:43):
So you have these otherstatements that do show that the
character of God is to tell thetruth, to not lie, not just in
the hyper-specific court case ofbearing false witness.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
I mean Proverbs 12,.
22 is pretty clear Lying lipsare an abomination to the Lord,
but those who act faithfully arehis delight.
Or how about this?
There are six things the Lordhates.
Seven that are an abominationto him Haughty eyes, a lying
tongue.
So he is not for lying Right.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
But Okay, now let's look at.
So here I'm going to.
I just pulled up the ESV studyBible note for this verse 1,
Samuel 16.
I have come to sacrifice to theLord.
This was a true but incompletestatement of the reasons for
Samuel to come to Bethlehem, andyet the Lord told him to say it
.
So it should not be consideredmorally wrong.
It seems that telling part ofwhat one knows to be true in
(10:39):
order to conceal otherinformation is morally right in
some situations, particularlyadversarial situations such as
this one.
There it is.
Moreover, the Lord had theright to hide his intentions
from Saul, who had provedhimself faithless.
So in this sense, it's like youdon't owe the whole truth to
(11:00):
faithless people who want toabuse you or kill you.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Fair enough, but he's not—whenever Samuel goes, he
talks to abuse you or kill you.
Fair enough, but he's notwhenever Samuel goes, he talks
to the Bethlehem city.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Now, granted, they would have told Right so so
consider also like the situationwith Rahab hiding the Hebrew
spies and then lying, so theywent another way.
Yeah, um, and you know what shedid.
It's presented as being amorally righteous thing, um, and
(11:40):
you know what she did.
It are some situations, or acategory of situations, where
deception is at least acceptableand potentially morally right.
It seems like Okay, okay, butthis gets confusing.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
So Colossians 3, 9, 10, I think this is really huge.
Do not lie to one another,seeing that you have put off the
old self with this practice andput on the new self, which is
being renewed in knowledge afterthe image of its creator.
Now the lie to one anothercould be talking about lying to
faithful people.
Yeah, because it's obviouslytalking about the church.
But man it it.
(12:15):
This is where you know we.
We talked about this earlier.
Wayne Grudem would say neverlie, ever.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Yeah, and his, if I remember correctly, in his
systematic theology, um and hiscontributions to, he's got a he
co, I think, coauthored a bookon um, christian ethics and I
think he took a really hardstance on like no, it's never
okay, ever based on God cannotlie and therefore, um, uh, you
(12:43):
know, it's never morally rightfor us to do so.
But here you have an examplewhere God is literally.
God is the one.
It's not like Rahab, where sheseems to decide herself to
conceal the spies and lie aboutyou know them being there.
This is God explicitlycommanding Samuel tell a portion
of the truth and conceal otherinformation for God's purposes.
(13:07):
That's directly from the mouthof God there, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Yeah, I think so.
Wayne Grudem does.
He creates a line betweendeception and lying.
Oh, okay, all right, what doeshe?
Say he says lying is a verbalor written statement that
knowingly asserts falsehoods.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Okay, but when I look at, so that's where he would
not defend Rahab, then qualifieslying under his definition.
So there you go.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Yeah, I think this.
You know it's kind of wild thatit has like like again, at what
point is lying okay?
Like, because we would say likelying in a sense of deception
in any sport is like part of thegame.
Fake left, go right, fake punt,all that stuff, like no one's
sitting there, going like thatis unethical.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Even, you know, Jesus sought to kind of conceal his
own identity, Right, If you readthrough the gospels, the parts
where he's like hey, don't tellanyone about this.
The purpose, you know, is thatthe fullness of his identity
might not be known before thefullness of time, Right, when,
when you know, um, uh, his hourhad come and it's time for him
(14:28):
to be betrayed, arrested,crucified, Um.
But leading up to that, hewould often intentionally try to
conceal um aspects of hisidentity.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah, um, I think it's hard for me, just as a
person like when, as such ablack and white person, I'd say
line always bad, always wrong,right, and then there's nuances
where it's actually okay andmaybe you know, you know if I
were hiding Jews, for example,in Holland during World War II.
(14:59):
And are there any Jews here?
No, no Jews here.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Or consider you know a private investigator who goes
undercover.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Going undercover is intentionally deceptive.
Yeah, you are pretending to besomething you're not.
The police do it all the time,right?
Yeah, like they've got narcs orwhatever.
Yeah, but that's part, that's's.
You know, no one questions thejustice of that right you're.
You are intentionally deceiving.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
But it's, you know, it's uh cia.
I mean, yeah, where you livelike almost a double life.
For, for example, um, is it jayhood, uh, the left-handed
assassin who killed, right, uh,egg lung e hood, e hood e hood,
yeah, yeah.
So he kills egg lung, kick egglung, right, yeah.
So, yeah, ehud ehud, he, hesaid he kind of he doesn't know,
he's right hand, so he comes in, looks like he's unarmed and
(15:47):
then he's I've got a secretmessage from god for you comes
up and, just you know, stabs himand his sword or knife just
gets lost in the guy's bellybecause he's so fat, right, that
has that is seen as an act offaith and heroism.
It might be because that's anact of war.
That's uh, someone who'sdelivering israel from uh,
(16:07):
oppression.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Uh, kind of a wild deal there, yeah and I mean
again and we in situations ofwar, it's common, right it's?
It's like there's deception oflike, all right, send your guys
out this way, but we got anothercrew sneaking around the back
to take them by surprise.
It's just how.
That's part of the strategy, inthe same way that, whether
(16:29):
basketball or chess- orundercover cops yeah.
So that's like, that's something.
I think that might be really ashock to the system for some
people, but there are clearexamples of it in scripture,
where I think this is one of theclearest ones, where it's God
himself commanding Samuel.
(16:51):
Hey, say this, um, even thoughthe full intention is more than
what you're saying.
Right, right, yeah, yeah.
So I think, for the most part,you have to put some boundaries
on this.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
You don't want anyone to hear this and um, even
though the full intention ismore than what you're saying,
right, right, yeah, yeah.
So I think, for the most part,we're.
You have to put some boundarieson this, you don't want anyone
to hear this and go.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Oh, so I can lie to my wife, and you know, say I'm
uh working late when really I'mlike I'm playing video games for
an hour.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Right, there's actually um a bar called the
office, uh, about two miles fromhere.
And on the thing it says justtell her you're at the Office.
Oh my God.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
So that's, yeah, that's exactly what you can't
say.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
That's righteous deception and honestly, you
would not be lying.
Hey, I'm going to the Office,which is technically the name of
the place.
Now I do think it's wrong, inthe sense that what you're
trying to mask I think that'swhere it gets into the thoughts
and intentions of the heart Likethis is where the word of God
convicts you, the Holy Spiritwould convict you of.
Like this is a line that you'vecrossed, a moral line that is
(17:45):
evil and is an abomination tothe Lord.
And again this goes into don'tlie to one another.
Colossians 3.9,.
You've taken off the old self,put on the new self.
3.9.
You've taken off the old self,put on the new self.
So if you're in, you know, thefamily of God, you're not trying
to like arrest somebody, or youknow, but I guess you could lie
to your wife if you wereplaying Settlers of Catan, right
(18:12):
?
I think that's that's like youknow, if you're like oh, I
promise I won't put the robberon you, yeah, Another example
that comes to mind I was justreading it in Second Kings the
other day.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
What is the king who?
He tells all the prophets ofBaal like, hey, we're going to
do a big sacrifice to Baal.
Come on over here and gets themall, the priests and prophets
of Baal, into one room, locksthe doors, slaughters them all.
Yeah, and God is like good job,you rid the land of Baal
(18:48):
worship.
Yeah, which king was that?
It's pre-Hezekiah, it'spre-Josiah, it's got to be like
chapter 7 or 8 or something likethat.
Anyway, but that would beanother example of like complete
deception for a righteousreason.
You know what I'm talking about.
(19:10):
You're in 2 Kings right now aswell.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah, I am, but there's.
Yeah, this is where Jehudoesn't he gather?
It's Jehu, it's Jehu.
He gathers all the prophets ofBaal into the temple of Baal and
then slaughtered him, has thetemple destroyed.
Yes and yeah, it was just sortof wild.
That's 2.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Kings 10.
Okay, 2 Kings 10.
Yeah, I just read that theother day.
So Jehu gets all the power.
He assembled all the people andsaid Ahab served Baal a little,
but Jehu will serve him much.
Right Now, call to me all theprophets of Baal, all his
(19:51):
worshipers and all his priests.
Let none be missing.
And so they all come in.
Jehu stationed 80 men outsideand then it says where is it?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
It's 18 through 28.
2 Kings 10, 18 through 28.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
The man who allows any of those whom I give into
your hands to escape shallforfeit his life.
And so go in and strike themdown, Let not a man escape.
So he brings them all in there,stations his men outside and
then just has them allslaughtered.
And it's similar to when Elijahslaughtered all the prophets of
Baal on Mount Carmel.
Right.
So slaughtering— he says, hey,we're just going to have a
(20:34):
contest.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Yeah, whoever wins, he is God.
Yeah.
And then, okay, since my God isGod, I'm going to wipe out all
400 of you, which is kind ofwild, which is kind of weird.
I mean, they were so exhaustedfrom all their slashing
themselves and chanting forhours.
They couldn't resist one dudegoing around the sword and just
(20:56):
hacking people to death.
Yeah, uh.
So he probably knew that godwould answer by fire.
So he riles him up.
Hey, chant louder.
Maybe he's on the toilet, maybeyou know he can't hear you all
to get them exhausted, so he canall kill them.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Yep so there you go and that's you know.
That is, uh, god's judgmentthrough him on, and similarly
god's judgment through anotherprophet, samuel, on the king
Agag or whatever.
And so you have God's judgmentcoming upon these false prophets
(21:27):
, and that being a righteousthing, and you also have some
deception here, in multiplesituations with Samuel and then
later with Jehu really being putforward as like, yeah, this is,
there's nothing wrong with this.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Yeah, okay, there's another one, and I think this is
sort of wild.
We were actually, I think,talking about this the other day
with Grant when we were talkingabout Unseen Realm.
Oh yeah, yeah, that God is inhis divine council, in 1 Kings
22, I think, and the Lord askedthe council who will entice Ahab
(22:08):
into attacking Ramath Gileadand going to his death there?
And then the different spirits,or angels, or council, or
demons, I don't know all givedifferent ideas.
And one said I will go and be alying spirit in the mouth of all
of his prophets.
And the Lord said you willsucceed in Titus, go and do it.
And then, of course, whichmaybe it's not lying, because
(22:31):
then God tells Ahab throughMicaiah the prophet so the Lord
put a lying spirit in his mouthand all these prophets of yours,
the Lord has decreed disasterfor you.
So he does tell him, but heputs a lying spirit into the
prophets of Baal, and maybethat's the point is that you
can't trust the evil prophets.
Yeah, but it's wild.
(22:52):
I don't know if I ever thoughtthis much about deception and
lying and war, and there's aspiritual battle that's
happening.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeah, it's a very interesting topic.
There's a lot of examples of it, you know, and I think you know
maybe it would come up more ifthere was more New Testament
examples, but most people justdon't read the Old Testament, so
they've never heard of thisstuff.
Right, so good for the personwho asked this question.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Yeah, wait, I mean like seriously, you are a Bible
scholar so you get extra credit.
But here's the thing At WestPoint we had a huge big deal on
honor code, all right.
So honor code looked like thisWhenever you went to a hotel,
you had to tell the hotel peopleyou know, because in college
you know a bunch of guys.
No one has any money, so you soa bunch of guys go to New York
city and you get a hotel and youhave like 50 people in there.
(23:39):
You had to tell them how manypeople you had, and if you
didn't, then, um, that would beconsidered lying, and if you
lied you were kicked out.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
So, for example, someone did that, where they
lied about how many people theyhad in a hotel room, and so this
is a different situation thanyou're going into a hotel room
and you have you're trying tosafely rescue someone who's been
trafficked great, and if youtell them about this person, you
know that they're linked upwith the mafia or whatever.
(24:09):
You know, that's this.
One way is like we don't wantto spend any money.
You know, because we're brokeand so we're going to lie about
how many people are there.
The other way is we are tryingto money.
You know because we're brokeand so we're going to lie about
how many people are there.
The other way is we are tryingto protect life.
You know, back to the TenCommandments thou shalt not
murder Again.
(24:30):
Implicit within this is thesanctity of human life and that
human life should be protected.
This is actually where, likeself-defense, the right to
defend yourself or go to war, isto protect the sanctity of life
of, you know, those who areinnocent.
So deception for the purpose ofprotecting the sanctity of
human life, protecting theinnocent, that's different If
(24:51):
it's an act of war, I guess.
Yeah, it's in an adversarialsituation where deception would
save life, right?
Um, that's different than ohshoot, we can save a hundred
bucks if we lie about how manyof us there are.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
So so the way that West Point, we had this little
teeny card that we I kept in mywallet and it was the three
rules of thumb is it was doesthis action attempt to deceive
anyone or allow anyone to bedeceived?
Two was does this actionattempt to deceive anyone or
allow anyone to be deceived?
Two was does this action gainor allow the gain of privilege
or advantage to which I orsomeone else would not otherwise
be entitled?
And the third one was would Ibe satisfied with the outcome if
(25:28):
I were on the receiving end ofthis action?
And so the grid of truth oraction was kind of placed
through that, and so we actuallyhad honor classes, like so that
was like part of it.
And then so the question came upif your grandma bakes you a pie
and she asks how do you like it, are you allowed to lie?
(25:48):
We spent hours on this one andit was like it's your grandma,
like you can't.
You can't let her know.
You've got to say it wasamazing.
Grandma, thanks for the pie, itwas awesome, and you eat every
bite even though you hate it.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah, because that preserves her life.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Right, but other people.
That was a gray area Of all thethings that became like the big
thing, like what about you know, if you don't like something
like man?
Speaker 2 (26:18):
people were brutally honest because like I can't lie
when your kid draws you apicture and hands it to you and
says daddy, do you like mypicture?
And it's just this kind of likeScribbles.
Yeah, scribble You're like.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
I love the effort, I love the colors, I love.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
You don't say you know it's not the greatest thing
I've ever seen.
Love.
You don't say you know it's notthe greatest thing I've ever
seen.
Um, you're not.
You're no, picasso.
There's nothing superimpressive about this.
It's not my.
You know pretty much.
You are a failure, yeah, at artum try again.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yeah, like go back and do something actually worth
my time.
You say it's beautiful, sweetie.
I love it.
Thank you, it's beautifulbecause you made it.
I think that's hard.
I think again.
I think there's nuance here.
I think's it's wild how big ofa deal it is.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah, especially people who are, again,
especially, I think, men who arevery black, white,
justice-oriented,righteousness-oriented, for all
good things, you're like I don'twant to break a rule, even in
the slightest.
I don't want to tell a lie, Idon't want to be dishonest even
in the tiniest bit.
I want to have integrity.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Because, like with Rahab, for example, what Rahab
did when she hid the spies thatwere spying out Jericho, she hid
them in faith, which is whyshe's talked about in.
Is it Romans?
Hebrews when she talked aboutin Romans, hebrews, hebrews.
She talked about Hebrews.
We're about to go over that, ordid we already go over that?
Chapter 11.
Chapter 11.
(27:36):
Okay, so she talked about inHebrews.
Where, like, she is justifiedby lying, also James, also James
, okay, so then.
So then, when you look at that,her intentions were to say but
you could have said what if shesaid um, I trust God so much
(27:57):
that I know that he coulddeliver them, and I don't have
to worry about lying, because myGod is more powerful to strike
them dead when they try to takethe spies.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah, that also would have been an act of faith.
I think you know her in Jamesshe's given as an example of
faith without works is dead, andso her works, just, you know,
in a sense demonstrated herfaith, right, she said you know,
I have my faith in God is goingto lead me to essentially
(28:28):
choose the side of his peoplerather than these people.
And that might be that, and I'mgoing to risk my own life
because if she were to be foundout she's dead, right, the safer
route would have been to saythey're down there, go get them,
and then she would have beenhonored by her people, the
Canaanites, the God, the Goddenying God, hating people.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
So she chose rather, um, to risk her life by, because
if she's found out she lied,she's dead yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
But she is willing to risk her life to essentially
give her allegiance to God andhis people Right, and so that's
the way that it was an act offaith.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
So maybe the best way to put this is your loyalty to
God or loyalty to yourself inyour truth telling.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, and I think most of the time you're going to
know.
Yeah, you know this wasn'tabout Samuel, the original
situation that brought this up.
This wasn't about him likesaving a few bucks or not
getting in trouble with his wife, or you know.
This is about how toeffectively um anoint a new King
, um, without you know, umcausing a a disruption, without
(29:40):
unnecessarily costing any lives.
Right, he's coming in by sayingI come in peace and I'm here to
offer a sacrifice.
He's able to effectively kindof accomplish God's purposes
without unnecessary loss of lifefor a war that could have
broken out if his trueintentions were known.
(30:01):
Does that make sense?
Yeah, do you agree with that?
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yeah, I agree.
It is one of those things whereI think sometimes we can get so
caught up in a principle thatwe can miss the person of Christ
.
And I don't want to get overly,you know, because every
situation is going to have adifferent again.
(30:25):
I think Rahab is a perfectexample of that.
I think that she's a perfectexample of I'm showing my
allegiance to God and to hispeople.
I fear the Lord more than Ifear these people.
I want to protect their livesand if I tell them the truth,
then they are going to die and Iam going to be shown as as I'm
not going to be faithful toYahweh.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Yeah, I just think if someone breaks into my house
and my kids are hiding in asecret place and someone's like,
tell me where they are, I don'towe you that knowledge.
Right, right, right.
I don't have any obligation totell you the truth.
In that situation, obviously,I'm going to seek the protection
of my family's life, and one ofthe things that came up- with
(31:07):
police, for example, you'reallowed to say like, hey, I
talked to your buddy, they justconfessed.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
They told me the whole deal, you did it.
You're allowed to make up awhole story about them to get a
confession from the other guy,which is sort of wild, but that
again is an adversarialsituation, and so yeah hopefully
that Adversarial meaning you'redealing with someone who is
faithless and who is against you.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Yeah, who's not for.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
God.
I think that's who's not forGod.
Exactly.
They're not for God, and sowhat you're trying to get to is
like how will this best bringrighteousness to a situation?
Don't play poker.
Very interesting topic.
Yeah, that's a challenging one.
All right, here's the nextquestion.
The next question that came inis stand by, okay, how does one
(31:59):
foster a spirit of gentleness ona foundation of strength versus
becoming gentle from a place ofweakness or fear of man, which,
in my opinion and y'all mayboth disagree is cowardice
masquerading as being gentle andkind?
I would appreciate y'all goingto tangible things a person can
do in order to grow thisfoundation versus the most
(32:19):
obvious, founded on Christ andhis strength.
All right, so what do you think?
First off, let's kind of likehow do we foster a spirit of
gentleness on the foundation ofstrength versus becoming gentle
from a place of weakness or fearof man?
So let's talk about I thinkthere's, let's just talk about
(32:42):
the difference between the two.
So gentleness based on strengthis meekness where it's strength
under control.
Jesus was clearly meek.
He had all the power of theworld, yet set to serve and very
gentle.
In other moments he was verystrong and very flipping tables
(33:02):
and outright just anger,rebuking Pharisees you know
calling people very harsh thingsuh, in sort of the tradition of
John, like he was not.
It just depended on thesituation for him, of how, of
who he was being gentle with.
It wasn't just a I treateverybody the same it wasn't
(33:27):
just a I treat everybody thesame.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Um, one thing that comes tomind for me there's like a you
probably like, seem this, likeyou know kind of meme type, uh,
image.
It's a quote that's, um, Idon't know, I've seen for a long
time kind of passed around, butit says you can't truly call
yourself peaceful unless you'recapable of great violence.
If you're not capable ofviolence, you're not peaceful,
you're harmless, Right.
(33:48):
And so to what I think thequestion is asking is saying,
like, the goal is not to beharmless but peaceful, yeah,
Right.
So how do you do that?
How do you cultivate strengthbut use it in such a way where,
um, you're gentle with othersfrom a place of strength and
(34:09):
wisdom and knowing, like you'rebringing up?
This is a situation that needsgentleness.
This is a situation that needs,you know, um, a harshness or a
directness, Right and um, youknow wisdom tells you the
difference, Right, Harshness is.
You know wisdom tells you thedifference, Right, Harshness is.
You know, any time Jesus wasever more blunt, more harsh,
more, whatever those kind ofsituations.
(34:34):
It was righteous, Right, out ofa lack of self-control, but a
full possession of self-controlfor righteous reasons, whether
to protect the weak from foolishor corrupt leaders, or to
demonstrate God's zeal forholiness when the temple had
(34:58):
become corrupt.
So it was always about Jesusessentially.
The temple had become corrupt,so it was always about Jesus
Essentially.
Um, he, he had the wisdom, theperfect wisdom, to know who to
be gentle with and who to bedirect or forceful with.
Um, but he, he had the abilityto be forceful.
You know, um, he wasn't aharmless person.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Yeah, does that make sense?
Yeah, so let's, so, let's getpractical.
So I, I get Jesus right, we'reall.
I think.
Once we go to Jesus, theneveryone sort of checks out
because like okay, I'm not Jesus.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Well, you shouldn't do that.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Right, but I do think there's some things that we
could learn.
So Jesus knew God's word and weknow that God's word is
powerful, sharper than anytwo-edged sword, divided between
joint and marrow, discerningbetween the thoughts and
intentions of the heart.
So we know how powerful God'sword is.
I think when a person doesn'tknow God's word they run to
(35:51):
snappy put-downs quick, whateverthey're not based upon God's
word.
But when you bring God's wordit brings a gravity to the
situation.
But you've got to know God'sword.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
And, more than that, you've got to, you've got to
live it and you have to have theexperience of applying it to
your life.
I think all of those thingsgives you a sense of there's
gravity to your words, yeah, andpower, yeah.
I mean the that word of likegravitas.
Yeah, it's like someone who hasgravitas is someone who knows
God's word, who lives it, whohas confidence and peace inside.
(36:31):
You're not trying to proveyourself to anyone by flexing
your strength.
You know to try to impresspeople or make a show Right.
You, you have the weightinessof um, a life surrendered to God
, that trusts God, and, um,you're going to use your
strength in appropriate ways.
So, yeah, I agree, you got toknow God's word, you got to live
God's word.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Yeah.
So I think that's huge, becauseI think which proverb?
I think it's Proverbs 26, theone that says like that's like
two back to back.
You know, don't answer a foolaccording to his folly, or
yourself we just like him.
But then the next line isanswer a fool according to his
folly, or he will be wise in hisown eyes, Like that is sort of
(37:11):
a why.
Yeah, that gets into the nuanceof someone who has the Holy
spirit.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Someone who knows God's word is going to know how
to answer a person with strength, conviction and courage for the
way that person needs to hearit Because I think some people
would hear you know Jesus ismeek or called to be gentle, and
they might think, okay, so Ishould not cultivate strength.
I should never kind of learnhow to use a loud voice.
(37:43):
I shouldn't even physically, Ishouldn't lift weights or try to
be physically strong.
I should just be kind of thisweak, tender, gentle, harmless
person.
When that's not, I would saythat is not for men especially.
(38:03):
Yeah, you look at someone likePaul.
Right, paul would not.
Paul had the physical strengthyou could tell this is a strong
dude to be able to take abeating and get back up and go
preach again.
Right, he had developed, Iwould say, not even mental and
spiritual fortitude, butphysical fortitude.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
I mean he was survived being out at sea Prison
.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Yeah, he could take and he could take.
This guy was the ultimate Ironman, yes, and he had leadership
as well as a type of strength.
You know someone might, but ohit's you know meekness is about.
I never kind of speak up or Inever try to like take the lead.
I never kind of speak up or Inever try to like take the lead.
No, paul could take command.
When the ship, um, uh, was youknow pressed in on you know by
(38:48):
the storm and everyone'sfreaking out, paul had the
wherewithal, the the stamina,the strength to be able to take
command and give them hope andpeace While a prisoner and then
convinced a Roman centurion tolet him go.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
So you, paul, was not a harmless man, right?
He was a gentle man who knewhow and when to use his strength
for the good of others ratherthan selfish ambition.
Okay, so what I'm hearing?
Speaker 1 (39:11):
from you, and this might be a way of you need to
cultivate as a person that can'tbe harmless.
You have to have strength, andso let's just go straight, work
out, yes, go.
I don't know, maybe Brazilianjujitsu, just some sort of
martial art, actually have theability to, um, be, inflict
violence if you will, but youhave the mental acuity, holy
(39:34):
spirit, self-control to knowwhen not to use it.
I think what happens for our,our culture, uh, has so been
thumbs down on men being strong,men being men, and so it's
looked down upon in many ways to, sort of like, actively pursue
things of strength.
It's been termed vanity asopposed to being termed
(39:57):
something oh, this is what mendo.
And so I think that a practicalway like work out, have
endurance and physical staminaand strength, have the ability
to know how to handle yourselfin a fight or whatever, but then
, at the same time, have thewherewithal, the knowledge of
God's word, to have the HolySpirit, self-control, to then
(40:19):
not take advantage of others butlook to lift others up control
to then not take advantage ofothers but look to lift others
up.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Exactly, here's the deal, men.
Okay, speaking again to men, Ithink this applies to women as
well.
Um, there is a type of strengththat women need for their
calling.
You know, um, uh, proverbs 31speaks of her making her arms
strong.
She is clothed with strengthand dignity, but it's a
different type of strength.
The glory and strength of awoman is different than the
glory of strength in a man.
Men are bigger, men arestronger, and wicked men will
(40:48):
use that to their advantage, andthe only people who possess you
know what is necessary tooppose a wicked man is a
righteous man who learned tocultivate strength in all of its
ways, with wisdom and virtue,to stand up against evil and
protect people who arevulnerable.
So, for the men especially, yes, cultivate physical strength.
(41:11):
Know God's word in like the mostpractical ways.
If you're a father and your kidgets kidnapped at a park, but
you've never run a mile in yourlife, gets kidnapped at a park,
but you've never run a mile inyour life you think you're going
to be able to catch the youknow?
Or like someone tries to um, uh, rob, you know, rob your, uh,
(41:31):
your wife take, take her purse,threaten her life with a weapon
or something, and you have noability to defend your wife.
Like there's something in youthat's like you need to not only
possess biblical knowledge, butphysical strength and, um, and
the wisdom to not do somethingfoolish, the wisdom to know hey,
take the purse, god bless you.
Or I need, if I don't act now,um, I might lose my wife's life,
(41:54):
or something like that.
You know what I mean.
Like there's a, it's all it all.
Mental, spiritual, physicalstrength, um, strength guided by
wisdom.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Physical training is of some value, but godliness is
far more, and I think godlinessshould be the ultimate thing
which you achieve.
Godliness is achieved throughthe work of Jesus in your life.
Exposing more of your life toJesus through his word, through
his spirit, through his people,will then ultimately make you
stronger, and I know that's thepart where the person said I
don't want to hear about.
Set my foundation on Christ.
(42:24):
However, set your foundation onChrist because that is like
intentional time in the word,when you know the word so well.
When someone comes at you withsomething, you can be calm and
be like man.
I can't do that.
Or I love you too much.
In a marriage situation, I loveyou too much to let us deviate
(42:45):
from God's word.
Yeah, with a child, I love youtoo much to let you disobey.
I'm going to restrain you in anintentional way.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Most of the battles you're going to face in life are
not going to be physical featsof strength.
They're going to be matters ofwisdom, self-control, and the
strength required is going to bea strength you know needed to
carry in a leadership way, yourfamily or your loved ones or
your flock or whatever, in agodly direction.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Right, and I would say consistency as a person,
like when you can developspiritual disciplines that are
regular, that are no matter whatwhat happens in your life, is
that there become principlesthat sort of come up, values,
that sort of come up in yourlife that you do no matter what,
which people respect, notbecause, like, of a fear of you,
(43:42):
but because of respect of you.
And so I think that's whatwe're looking to cultivate here
and I think that's what Jesusdid, obviously, when even the
Pharisees would walk away whenthere was a threatening
situation, because of the wordsJesus spoke, because he was so
immersed in God's word I mean hewas like he could make at any
moment just his word Now,granted, he was like he could
(44:02):
make at any moment it just saysword, now granted, he was God
and all that but like even intimes he was operating I don't
want to say he was neveroperating as Jesus, fully God,
fully man there's my disclaimerbut there was times where he's
operating in a human way, wherewhen it came to like is it right
to pay taxes or not, and he'slike render to Caesar what is
Caesar's?
I mean, that is just genius,human wisdom.
(44:22):
Um, that God obviously like,spoke through.
But like, I think, when youknow God's word so well, you're
able to discern in in betweenthe two things.
And so I think, um, the otherthing, I think that that men
specifically have to learn isit's we live your benefit at my
expense.
Men specifically have to learnis it's we live your benefit at
(44:45):
my expense, and that's Jesusobviously did that on the cross.
It was our benefit at hisexpense.
We are supposed to emulate yourbenefit at my expense, which
means I will, I want to be a manwho lives your benefit at my
expense, and what that means isif that's like a part of the
principle of your life.
I think one of the stories Ireally love about you when your
wife asks you for somethingright as you're about to go to
(45:05):
sleep and you say as you wishStill going strong on that as of
last night, just FYI.
You know I actually used it.
I go as you wish.
I would love to do that, but Ithink that's powerful right,
because what it says is like Ihave the strength to say no, but
I'm going to serve you, yourbenefit, at my expense, because
(45:26):
that's a principle of mine andI'm consistent in that and I'm
not going to go jerk off that tobe like get your own whatever
you know.
Like that, that's a hugereality, that's a huge truth
that people respect and thatbuilds strength and courage so
that when you do put your footdown in a positive way, that
isn't a negative towardswhatever they're wanting to do.
It's their benefit at yourexpense.
(45:47):
Yeah, all right, we kind of.
We pretty much nailed that one,all right, hey guys, thanks so
much for watching.
If you've got any questions, wewould love to hear from you.
This is kind of you provide thefodder for what we talk about,
so you can text us at737-231-0605 or leave a message
for us at pastorplekcom.
We'd love to hear from you,from our house to yours.
(46:08):
Have an awesome week of worship.
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec uh.
Sitting in with me today isnone other than pastor holland
greg how you doing doing greatthanks, chris all right now.
First off, uh, holland preachedfor us this past sunday.
And ho, what did you talk about?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Talked about a little bit of Hebrews 4 and 5, jesus
as our high priest.
So talked about a lot aboutpriests.
Talked about the three officesof prophet, priest and king and
how Hebrews focuses mainly onthe priest, that kings rule
under God over people.
Prophets speak to people onbehalf of God and priests plead
(00:46):
with God on behalf of people.
So the focus in Hebrews isJesus as our high priest, who
pleads with God on our behalf toforgive our sins and offers his
own life as a sacrifice thatdoesn't just ceremonially or
temporarily remove sin, butactually and eternally removes
our sin.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
I love it, or temporarily remove sin, but
actually and eternally removesour sin.
I love it.
Well, all right.
So any key takeaway from that?
Because it was like was thequestion like is Jesus actually
your high priest or are youlooking to someone else to be
your high priest?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah, only by looking to Jesus can we you know what
the author says go withconfidence before the throne of
grace.
Good, if Jesus is your highpriest, then you can go to God
and know for sure you're notgoing to be judged or condemned,
but there is grace and mercyfor you in your time of need.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Yeah, I thought it was great.
I got a lot of positivefeedback from it, specifically
people saying like hey, one ofthe things you talked about was
regular memories made withfamily for family vacations,
regular memories made withfamily for family vacations, and
so that was really encouragingthat a bunch of people now are
thinking about how are theygoing to create memories with
their fam to do a family vacaythat they can remember.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
That's fun.
That was, you know, not like amajor point.
It's an illustration, for youknow the point of Jesus
sympathizing with us and ourweaknesses, and something that
happened with my father-in-lawon vacation this past year.
But, yeah, the fact that theLord used that to encourage
people, praise God.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
You know, sometimes when I preach, people decide to
go to the army and I'm likethat's not what it was about at
all, but I'm glad that that'swhat you got from it.
So the Lord works in mysteriousways through the proclamation
of his word.
Now we had a couple ofquestions come up that actually
are not dealing with Jesus ashigh priest, but dealing with
(02:37):
just someone reading God's wordin their quiet time, which I
100% appreciate.
That you would entrust us witha question like this.
Here's a question I have aquestion about 1 Samuel 16,
verse 4.
The elders of the city came tomeet him trembling and said Do
you come peaceably?
Now, this is rightly dividingthe word of truth.
(02:58):
I just want to say, becausethey are getting into, what does
this verse mean?
And it would seem like a versethat's pretty innocuous, but
here's what the question is whydid they ask if Samuel came
peaceably?
Was there any other way for himto come?
I'm confused by this.
All right, holland, in whatreason do you think a person or
(03:21):
a prophet like Samuel would cometo a city and why would they be
trembling?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Well, so this is on the heels of 1 Samuel 15, where
Saul sins against the Lord andforfeits the kingdom.
Basically and so I think thatis felt by everyone it's like,
man, this was our king, wewanted a king, we wanted Saul,
and now he's sinned before God,he's forfeited the kingdom.
(03:49):
What does this mean?
Speaker 1 (03:51):
And it was a pretty public display Because remember
he had King Agag of the.
Was it the Amorites orMalachites?
Yeah, of the Malachites.
So King Agag of the Malachitesisn't killed, he's brought
before Samuel and Samuel hackshim literally to pieces with a
sword.
(04:11):
And you've got to imagine that.
That story made it throughsocial media really fast.
People were like you're notgoing to believe it.
I saw it with my own eyes.
Just the prophet Samuel.
He's pretty old.
He pulled out a sword and justwent to town on this king.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, so when you have a reputation for hacking
kings to pieces with a sword andthen you show up in a city and
you and everyone knows you knowSaul has sinned Right, and I
think there's just a little fearof like, are you coming here to
hack more people to pieces, yep, or are you coming here in
peace, right?
So I think that's where thequestion is coming from.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah, and they're trembling because they're
willing to do whatever, butthey're kind of worried for
their own families, worried fortheir own whatever.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
And okay, let's just talk about this because it gets
kind of interesting.
He doesn't give him the wholetruth that he's there to anoint
a king, yeah, so basically he's,you know Saul's forfeited the
kingdom.
And the Lord tells him you know, this is in chapter 16, verse
where is it?
Two verse?
One I will send you to Jessethe Bethlehemite, for I have
(05:28):
provided for myself a king amonghis sons.
So the plan is for Samuel to beable to go and, you know,
anoint a new king who would takethe place of Saul.
But he says, go and just tellhim I'm here to sacrifice.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Right.
In fact he says I mean, this isGod talking.
And Samuel?
Well, first Samuel says how canI go If Saul hears that he will
kill me?
And the Lord said take a heiferwith you and say I have come to
sacrifice to the Lord andinvite Jesse to the sacrifice
and I will show you what youshall do and you shall anoint
for me him who I declared you.
So he says don't give them thewhole truth.
(06:04):
Yeah, is that okay?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
If the Lord says it, then it is, you know, but it is
like it's a, you could say it'slike a form of deception, yeah,
and that it is true he does comethere to offer a sacrifice, but
the whole reason of anointing anew king is a bit is veiled
right.
He doesn't give them the fullreason, and so you know, this is
(06:30):
.
I think this is an example ofhow there is.
There is a type of deceptionthat can be moral and righteous,
which sounds weird to say, butyou just said, deception could
be moral and righteous, yeah,and particularly in um times
(06:51):
like uh, uh, situations of likewar or um adversarial situations
where you're coming up againstan enemy, it's it's like
deception is part of how youplay the game and uh like, it's
like deception is part of howyou play the game Like, for
example, in football.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
you could have a fake punt on fourth and long and
launch a pass.
You deceive the other team.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Now do you have to confess that afterward?
Should you confess that?
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Or is that okay In basketball?
You fake left, you go right,you make the guy look like a
fool as he jumps out of hisshoes to stop you, and then you
go and score.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
So the reason that that's not a sin is because
that's part of the game, rightand and in some sense, when it
comes to you know the game of um, you know war, um, deception is
part of the game all right,let's go back to 10 commandments
because this seems like we'relike justifying something to
kind of fit our own.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Like I like playing sports, I don't.
I don't want to give the enemymy battle plans.
I thought transparency ingovernment or what God is doing
was good, and so you're tellingme that might not be always be
the best thing.
But the 10 commandments saysthou shalt not lie, right, does
it?
Does it say that it doesn'tactually say it says you shalt
(08:07):
not bear false witness.
And that's really meaning acourt of law, isn't it Like when
someone says, hey, did Bobthrow the rock through the store
window?
And you're like, yes, bob threwthe rock through the store
window and he didn't.
You are bearing false witness.
Whenever they crucified Jesus,they got worthless fellows to
(08:30):
dishonestly agree but testifyagainst Jesus that he was doing
something evil or illegitimate.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Okay, so there you go .
They have a very hyper-specificform of this commandment Thou
shalt not bear false witnessagainst your neighbor.
Now we would also say, you know, to kind of go on the other
side a little bit, the TenCommandments imply and require
more than what they justexplicitly say.
We know this from Sermon on theMount do not commit adultery,
(09:00):
jesus said.
That actually goes to the heartlevel of even looking lustfully
at another woman that you'renot married to.
We also know that, um, you knowthe, the command to honor your
mother and father.
Um, this command extends out inprinciple to um, honoring all
authority in your life.
Um, that's kind of what youknow honoring the emperor and
the new Testament.
(09:20):
Those commands are based on theprinciple of honoring your
mother and father, those whohave authority over you.
So this is where you know youwould go to statements in the
Bible like God is not a man thathe should lie Right.
Or you know Titus I think it'sTitus, chapter one.
God who cannot lie promisedthis before the world began.
God who cannot lie promisedthis before the world began.
(09:43):
So you have these otherstatements that do show that the
character of God is to tell thetruth, to not lie, not just in
the hyper-specific court case ofbearing false witness.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
I mean Proverbs 12,.
22 is pretty clear Lying lipsare an abomination to the Lord,
but those who act faithfully arehis delight.
Or how about this?
There are six things the Lordhates.
Seven that are an abominationto him Haughty eyes, a lying
tongue.
So he is not for lying Right.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
But Okay, now let's look at.
So here I'm going to.
I just pulled up the ESV studyBible note for this verse 1,
Samuel 16.
I have come to sacrifice to theLord.
This was a true but incompletestatement of the reasons for
Samuel to come to Bethlehem, andyet the Lord told him to say it
.
So it should not be consideredmorally wrong.
It seems that telling part ofwhat one knows to be true in
(10:39):
order to conceal otherinformation is morally right in
some situations, particularlyadversarial situations such as
this one.
There it is.
Moreover, the Lord had theright to hide his intentions
from Saul, who had provedhimself faithless.
So in this sense, it's like youdon't owe the whole truth to
(11:00):
faithless people who want toabuse you or kill you.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Fair enough, but he's not—whenever Samuel goes, he
talks to abuse you or kill you.
Fair enough, but he's notwhenever Samuel goes, he talks
to the Bethlehem city.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Now, granted, they would have told Right so so
consider also like the situationwith Rahab hiding the Hebrew
spies and then lying, so theywent another way.
Yeah, um, and you know what shedid.
It's presented as being amorally righteous thing, um, and
(11:40):
you know what she did.
It are some situations, or acategory of situations, where
deception is at least acceptableand potentially morally right.
It seems like Okay, okay, butthis gets confusing.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
So Colossians 3, 9, 10, I think this is really huge.
Do not lie to one another,seeing that you have put off the
old self with this practice andput on the new self, which is
being renewed in knowledge afterthe image of its creator.
Now the lie to one anothercould be talking about lying to
faithful people.
Yeah, because it's obviouslytalking about the church.
But man it it.
(12:15):
This is where you know we.
We talked about this earlier.
Wayne Grudem would say neverlie, ever.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Yeah, and his, if I remember correctly, in his
systematic theology, um and hiscontributions to, he's got a he
co, I think, coauthored a bookon um, christian ethics and I
think he took a really hardstance on like no, it's never
okay, ever based on God cannotlie and therefore, um, uh, you
(12:43):
know, it's never morally rightfor us to do so.
But here you have an examplewhere God is literally.
God is the one.
It's not like Rahab, where sheseems to decide herself to
conceal the spies and lie aboutyou know them being there.
This is God explicitlycommanding Samuel tell a portion
of the truth and conceal otherinformation for God's purposes.
(13:07):
That's directly from the mouthof God there, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Yeah, I think so.
Wayne Grudem does.
He creates a line betweendeception and lying.
Oh, okay, all right, what doeshe?
Say he says lying is a verbalor written statement that
knowingly asserts falsehoods.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Okay, but when I look at, so that's where he would
not defend Rahab, then qualifieslying under his definition.
So there you go.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Yeah, I think this.
You know it's kind of wild thatit has like like again, at what
point is lying okay?
Like, because we would say likelying in a sense of deception
in any sport is like part of thegame.
Fake left, go right, fake punt,all that stuff, like no one's
sitting there, going like thatis unethical.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Even, you know, Jesus sought to kind of conceal his
own identity, Right, If you readthrough the gospels, the parts
where he's like hey, don't tellanyone about this.
The purpose, you know, is thatthe fullness of his identity
might not be known before thefullness of time, Right, when,
when you know, um, uh, his hourhad come and it's time for him
(14:28):
to be betrayed, arrested,crucified, Um.
But leading up to that, hewould often intentionally try to
conceal um aspects of hisidentity.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah, um, I think it's hard for me, just as a
person like when, as such ablack and white person, I'd say
line always bad, always wrong,right, and then there's nuances
where it's actually okay andmaybe you know, you know if I
were hiding Jews, for example,in Holland during World War II.
(14:59):
And are there any Jews here?
No, no Jews here.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Or consider you know a private investigator who goes
undercover.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Going undercover is intentionally deceptive.
Yeah, you are pretending to besomething you're not.
The police do it all the time,right?
Yeah, like they've got narcs orwhatever.
Yeah, but that's part, that's's.
You know, no one questions thejustice of that right you're.
You are intentionally deceiving.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
But it's, you know, it's uh cia.
I mean, yeah, where you livelike almost a double life.
For, for example, um, is it jayhood, uh, the left-handed
assassin who killed, right, uh,egg lung e hood, e hood e hood,
yeah, yeah.
So he kills egg lung, kick egglung, right, yeah.
So, yeah, ehud ehud, he, hesaid he kind of he doesn't know,
he's right hand, so he comes in, looks like he's unarmed and
(15:47):
then he's I've got a secretmessage from god for you comes
up and, just you know, stabs himand his sword or knife just
gets lost in the guy's bellybecause he's so fat, right, that
has that is seen as an act offaith and heroism.
It might be because that's anact of war.
That's uh, someone who'sdelivering israel from uh,
(16:07):
oppression.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Uh, kind of a wild deal there, yeah and I mean
again and we in situations ofwar, it's common, right it's?
It's like there's deception oflike, all right, send your guys
out this way, but we got anothercrew sneaking around the back
to take them by surprise.
It's just how.
That's part of the strategy, inthe same way that, whether
(16:29):
basketball or chess- orundercover cops yeah.
So that's like, that's something.
I think that might be really ashock to the system for some
people, but there are clearexamples of it in scripture,
where I think this is one of theclearest ones, where it's God
himself commanding Samuel.
(16:51):
Hey, say this, um, even thoughthe full intention is more than
what you're saying.
Right, right, yeah, yeah.
So I think, for the most part,you have to put some boundaries
on this.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
You don't want anyone to hear this and um, even
though the full intention ismore than what you're saying,
right, right, yeah, yeah.
So I think, for the most part,we're.
You have to put some boundarieson this, you don't want anyone
to hear this and go.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Oh, so I can lie to my wife, and you know, say I'm
uh working late when really I'mlike I'm playing video games for
an hour.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Right, there's actually um a bar called the
office, uh, about two miles fromhere.
And on the thing it says justtell her you're at the Office.
Oh my God.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
So that's, yeah, that's exactly what you can't
say.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
That's righteous deception and honestly, you
would not be lying.
Hey, I'm going to the Office,which is technically the name of
the place.
Now I do think it's wrong, inthe sense that what you're
trying to mask I think that'swhere it gets into the thoughts
and intentions of the heart Likethis is where the word of God
convicts you, the Holy Spiritwould convict you of.
Like this is a line that you'vecrossed, a moral line that is
(17:45):
evil and is an abomination tothe Lord.
And again this goes into don'tlie to one another.
Colossians 3.9,.
You've taken off the old self,put on the new self.
3.9.
You've taken off the old self,put on the new self.
So if you're in, you know, thefamily of God, you're not trying
to like arrest somebody, or youknow, but I guess you could lie
to your wife if you wereplaying Settlers of Catan, right
(18:12):
?
I think that's that's like youknow, if you're like oh, I
promise I won't put the robberon you, yeah, Another example
that comes to mind I was justreading it in Second Kings the
other day.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
What is the king who?
He tells all the prophets ofBaal like, hey, we're going to
do a big sacrifice to Baal.
Come on over here and gets themall, the priests and prophets
of Baal, into one room, locksthe doors, slaughters them all.
Yeah, and God is like good job,you rid the land of Baal
(18:48):
worship.
Yeah, which king was that?
It's pre-Hezekiah, it'spre-Josiah, it's got to be like
chapter 7 or 8 or something likethat.
Anyway, but that would beanother example of like complete
deception for a righteousreason.
You know what I'm talking about.
(19:10):
You're in 2 Kings right now aswell.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah, I am, but there's.
Yeah, this is where Jehudoesn't he gather?
It's Jehu, it's Jehu.
He gathers all the prophets ofBaal into the temple of Baal and
then slaughtered him, has thetemple destroyed.
Yes and yeah, it was just sortof wild.
That's 2.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Kings 10.
Okay, 2 Kings 10.
Yeah, I just read that theother day.
So Jehu gets all the power.
He assembled all the people andsaid Ahab served Baal a little,
but Jehu will serve him much.
Right Now, call to me all theprophets of Baal, all his
(19:51):
worshipers and all his priests.
Let none be missing.
And so they all come in.
Jehu stationed 80 men outsideand then it says where is it?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
It's 18 through 28.
2 Kings 10, 18 through 28.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
The man who allows any of those whom I give into
your hands to escape shallforfeit his life.
And so go in and strike themdown, Let not a man escape.
So he brings them all in there,stations his men outside and
then just has them allslaughtered.
And it's similar to when Elijahslaughtered all the prophets of
Baal on Mount Carmel.
Right.
So slaughtering— he says, hey,we're just going to have a
(20:34):
contest.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Yeah, whoever wins, he is God.
Yeah.
And then, okay, since my God isGod, I'm going to wipe out all
400 of you, which is kind ofwild, which is kind of weird.
I mean, they were so exhaustedfrom all their slashing
themselves and chanting forhours.
They couldn't resist one dudegoing around the sword and just
(20:56):
hacking people to death.
Yeah, uh.
So he probably knew that godwould answer by fire.
So he riles him up.
Hey, chant louder.
Maybe he's on the toilet, maybeyou know he can't hear you all
to get them exhausted, so he canall kill them.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Yep so there you go and that's you know.
That is, uh, god's judgmentthrough him on, and similarly
god's judgment through anotherprophet, samuel, on the king
Agag or whatever.
And so you have God's judgmentcoming upon these false prophets
(21:27):
, and that being a righteousthing, and you also have some
deception here, in multiplesituations with Samuel and then
later with Jehu really being putforward as like, yeah, this is,
there's nothing wrong with this.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Yeah, okay, there's another one, and I think this is
sort of wild.
We were actually, I think,talking about this the other day
with Grant when we were talkingabout Unseen Realm.
Oh yeah, yeah, that God is inhis divine council, in 1 Kings
22, I think, and the Lord askedthe council who will entice Ahab
(22:08):
into attacking Ramath Gileadand going to his death there?
And then the different spirits,or angels, or council, or
demons, I don't know all givedifferent ideas.
And one said I will go and be alying spirit in the mouth of all
of his prophets.
And the Lord said you willsucceed in Titus, go and do it.
And then, of course, whichmaybe it's not lying, because
(22:31):
then God tells Ahab throughMicaiah the prophet so the Lord
put a lying spirit in his mouthand all these prophets of yours,
the Lord has decreed disasterfor you.
So he does tell him, but heputs a lying spirit into the
prophets of Baal, and maybethat's the point is that you
can't trust the evil prophets.
Yeah, but it's wild.
(22:52):
I don't know if I ever thoughtthis much about deception and
lying and war, and there's aspiritual battle that's
happening.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeah, it's a very interesting topic.
There's a lot of examples of it, you know, and I think you know
maybe it would come up more ifthere was more New Testament
examples, but most people justdon't read the Old Testament, so
they've never heard of thisstuff.
Right, so good for the personwho asked this question.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Yeah, wait, I mean like seriously, you are a Bible
scholar so you get extra credit.
But here's the thing At WestPoint we had a huge big deal on
honor code, all right.
So honor code looked like thisWhenever you went to a hotel,
you had to tell the hotel peopleyou know, because in college
you know a bunch of guys.
No one has any money, so you soa bunch of guys go to New York
city and you get a hotel and youhave like 50 people in there.
(23:39):
You had to tell them how manypeople you had, and if you
didn't, then, um, that would beconsidered lying, and if you
lied you were kicked out.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
So, for example, someone did that, where they
lied about how many people theyhad in a hotel room, and so this
is a different situation thanyou're going into a hotel room
and you have you're trying tosafely rescue someone who's been
trafficked great, and if youtell them about this person, you
know that they're linked upwith the mafia or whatever.
(24:09):
You know, that's this.
One way is like we don't wantto spend any money.
You know, because we're brokeand so we're going to lie about
how many people are there.
The other way is we are tryingto money.
You know because we're brokeand so we're going to lie about
how many people are there.
The other way is we are tryingto protect life.
You know, back to the TenCommandments thou shalt not
murder Again.
(24:30):
Implicit within this is thesanctity of human life and that
human life should be protected.
This is actually where, likeself-defense, the right to
defend yourself or go to war, isto protect the sanctity of life
of, you know, those who areinnocent.
So deception for the purpose ofprotecting the sanctity of
human life, protecting theinnocent, that's different If
(24:51):
it's an act of war, I guess.
Yeah, it's in an adversarialsituation where deception would
save life, right?
Um, that's different than ohshoot, we can save a hundred
bucks if we lie about how manyof us there are.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
So so the way that West Point, we had this little
teeny card that we I kept in mywallet and it was the three
rules of thumb is it was doesthis action attempt to deceive
anyone or allow anyone to bedeceived?
Two was does this actionattempt to deceive anyone or
allow anyone to be deceived?
Two was does this action gainor allow the gain of privilege
or advantage to which I orsomeone else would not otherwise
be entitled?
And the third one was would Ibe satisfied with the outcome if
(25:28):
I were on the receiving end ofthis action?
And so the grid of truth oraction was kind of placed
through that, and so we actuallyhad honor classes, like so that
was like part of it.
And then so the question came upif your grandma bakes you a pie
and she asks how do you like it, are you allowed to lie?
(25:48):
We spent hours on this one andit was like it's your grandma,
like you can't.
You can't let her know.
You've got to say it wasamazing.
Grandma, thanks for the pie, itwas awesome, and you eat every
bite even though you hate it.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah, because that preserves her life.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Right, but other people.
That was a gray area Of all thethings that became like the big
thing, like what about you know, if you don't like something
like man?
Speaker 2 (26:18):
people were brutally honest because like I can't lie
when your kid draws you apicture and hands it to you and
says daddy, do you like mypicture?
And it's just this kind of likeScribbles.
Yeah, scribble You're like.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
I love the effort, I love the colors, I love.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
You don't say you know it's not the greatest thing
I've ever seen.
Love.
You don't say you know it's notthe greatest thing I've ever
seen.
Um, you're not.
You're no, picasso.
There's nothing superimpressive about this.
It's not my.
You know pretty much.
You are a failure, yeah, at artum try again.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yeah, like go back and do something actually worth
my time.
You say it's beautiful, sweetie.
I love it.
Thank you, it's beautifulbecause you made it.
I think that's hard.
I think again.
I think there's nuance here.
I think's it's wild how big ofa deal it is.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah, especially people who are, again,
especially, I think, men who arevery black, white,
justice-oriented,righteousness-oriented, for all
good things, you're like I don'twant to break a rule, even in
the slightest.
I don't want to tell a lie, Idon't want to be dishonest even
in the tiniest bit.
I want to have integrity.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Because, like with Rahab, for example, what Rahab
did when she hid the spies thatwere spying out Jericho, she hid
them in faith, which is whyshe's talked about in.
Is it Romans?
Hebrews when she talked aboutin Romans, hebrews, hebrews.
She talked about Hebrews.
We're about to go over that, ordid we already go over that?
Chapter 11.
Chapter 11.
(27:36):
Okay, so she talked about inHebrews.
Where, like, she is justifiedby lying, also James, also James
, okay, so then.
So then, when you look at that,her intentions were to say but
you could have said what if shesaid um, I trust God so much
(27:57):
that I know that he coulddeliver them, and I don't have
to worry about lying, because myGod is more powerful to strike
them dead when they try to takethe spies.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah, that also would have been an act of faith.
I think you know her in Jamesshe's given as an example of
faith without works is dead, andso her works, just, you know,
in a sense demonstrated herfaith, right, she said you know,
I have my faith in God is goingto lead me to essentially
(28:28):
choose the side of his peoplerather than these people.
And that might be that, and I'mgoing to risk my own life
because if she were to be foundout she's dead, right, the safer
route would have been to saythey're down there, go get them,
and then she would have beenhonored by her people, the
Canaanites, the God, the Goddenying God, hating people.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
So she chose rather, um, to risk her life by, because
if she's found out she lied,she's dead yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
But she is willing to risk her life to essentially
give her allegiance to God andhis people Right, and so that's
the way that it was an act offaith.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
So maybe the best way to put this is your loyalty to
God or loyalty to yourself inyour truth telling.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, and I think most of the time you're going to
know.
Yeah, you know this wasn'tabout Samuel, the original
situation that brought this up.
This wasn't about him likesaving a few bucks or not
getting in trouble with his wife, or you know.
This is about how toeffectively um anoint a new King
, um, without you know, umcausing a a disruption, without
(29:40):
unnecessarily costing any lives.
Right, he's coming in by sayingI come in peace and I'm here to
offer a sacrifice.
He's able to effectively kindof accomplish God's purposes
without unnecessary loss of lifefor a war that could have
broken out if his trueintentions were known.
(30:01):
Does that make sense?
Yeah, do you agree with that?
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yeah, I agree.
It is one of those things whereI think sometimes we can get so
caught up in a principle thatwe can miss the person of Christ
.
And I don't want to get overly,you know, because every
situation is going to have adifferent again.
(30:25):
I think Rahab is a perfectexample of that.
I think that she's a perfectexample of I'm showing my
allegiance to God and to hispeople.
I fear the Lord more than Ifear these people.
I want to protect their livesand if I tell them the truth,
then they are going to die and Iam going to be shown as as I'm
not going to be faithful toYahweh.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Yeah, I just think if someone breaks into my house
and my kids are hiding in asecret place and someone's like,
tell me where they are, I don'towe you that knowledge.
Right, right, right.
I don't have any obligation totell you the truth.
In that situation, obviously,I'm going to seek the protection
of my family's life, and one ofthe things that came up- with
(31:07):
police, for example, you'reallowed to say like, hey, I
talked to your buddy, they justconfessed.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
They told me the whole deal, you did it.
You're allowed to make up awhole story about them to get a
confession from the other guy,which is sort of wild, but that
again is an adversarialsituation, and so yeah hopefully
that Adversarial meaning you'redealing with someone who is
faithless and who is against you.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Yeah, who's not for.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
God.
I think that's who's not forGod.
Exactly.
They're not for God, and sowhat you're trying to get to is
like how will this best bringrighteousness to a situation?
Don't play poker.
Very interesting topic.
Yeah, that's a challenging one.
All right, here's the nextquestion.
The next question that came inis stand by, okay, how does one
(31:59):
foster a spirit of gentleness ona foundation of strength versus
becoming gentle from a place ofweakness or fear of man, which,
in my opinion and y'all mayboth disagree is cowardice
masquerading as being gentle andkind?
I would appreciate y'all goingto tangible things a person can
do in order to grow thisfoundation versus the most
(32:19):
obvious, founded on Christ andhis strength.
All right, so what do you think?
First off, let's kind of likehow do we foster a spirit of
gentleness on the foundation ofstrength versus becoming gentle
from a place of weakness or fearof man?
So let's talk about I thinkthere's, let's just talk about
(32:42):
the difference between the two.
So gentleness based on strengthis meekness where it's strength
under control.
Jesus was clearly meek.
He had all the power of theworld, yet set to serve and very
gentle.
In other moments he was verystrong and very flipping tables
(33:02):
and outright just anger,rebuking Pharisees you know
calling people very harsh thingsuh, in sort of the tradition of
John, like he was not.
It just depended on thesituation for him, of how, of
who he was being gentle with.
It wasn't just a I treateverybody the same it wasn't
(33:27):
just a I treat everybody thesame.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Um, one thing that comes tomind for me there's like a you
probably like, seem this, likeyou know kind of meme type, uh,
image.
It's a quote that's, um, Idon't know, I've seen for a long
time kind of passed around, butit says you can't truly call
yourself peaceful unless you'recapable of great violence.
If you're not capable ofviolence, you're not peaceful,
you're harmless, Right.
(33:48):
And so to what I think thequestion is asking is saying,
like, the goal is not to beharmless but peaceful, yeah,
Right.
So how do you do that?
How do you cultivate strengthbut use it in such a way where,
um, you're gentle with othersfrom a place of strength and
(34:09):
wisdom and knowing, like you'rebringing up?
This is a situation that needsgentleness.
This is a situation that needs,you know, um, a harshness or a
directness, Right and um, youknow wisdom tells you the
difference, Right, Harshness is.
You know wisdom tells you thedifference, Right, Harshness is.
You know, any time Jesus wasever more blunt, more harsh,
more, whatever those kind ofsituations.
(34:34):
It was righteous, Right, out ofa lack of self-control, but a
full possession of self-controlfor righteous reasons, whether
to protect the weak from foolishor corrupt leaders, or to
demonstrate God's zeal forholiness when the temple had
(34:58):
become corrupt.
So it was always about Jesusessentially.
The temple had become corrupt,so it was always about Jesus
Essentially.
Um, he, he had the wisdom, theperfect wisdom, to know who to
be gentle with and who to bedirect or forceful with.
Um, but he, he had the abilityto be forceful.
You know, um, he wasn't aharmless person.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Yeah, does that make sense?
Yeah, so let's, so, let's getpractical.
So I, I get Jesus right, we'reall.
I think.
Once we go to Jesus, theneveryone sort of checks out
because like okay, I'm not Jesus.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Well, you shouldn't do that.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Right, but I do think there's some things that we
could learn.
So Jesus knew God's word and weknow that God's word is
powerful, sharper than anytwo-edged sword, divided between
joint and marrow, discerningbetween the thoughts and
intentions of the heart.
So we know how powerful God'sword is.
I think when a person doesn'tknow God's word they run to
(35:51):
snappy put-downs quick, whateverthey're not based upon God's
word.
But when you bring God's wordit brings a gravity to the
situation.
But you've got to know God'sword.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
And, more than that, you've got to, you've got to
live it and you have to have theexperience of applying it to
your life.
I think all of those thingsgives you a sense of there's
gravity to your words, yeah, andpower, yeah.
I mean the that word of likegravitas.
Yeah, it's like someone who hasgravitas is someone who knows
God's word, who lives it, whohas confidence and peace inside.
(36:31):
You're not trying to proveyourself to anyone by flexing
your strength.
You know to try to impresspeople or make a show Right.
You, you have the weightinessof um, a life surrendered to God
, that trusts God, and, um,you're going to use your
strength in appropriate ways.
So, yeah, I agree, you got toknow God's word, you got to live
God's word.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Yeah.
So I think that's huge, becauseI think which proverb?
I think it's Proverbs 26, theone that says like that's like
two back to back.
You know, don't answer a foolaccording to his folly, or
yourself we just like him.
But then the next line isanswer a fool according to his
folly, or he will be wise in hisown eyes, Like that is sort of
(37:11):
a why.
Yeah, that gets into the nuanceof someone who has the Holy
spirit.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Someone who knows God's word is going to know how
to answer a person with strength, conviction and courage for the
way that person needs to hearit Because I think some people
would hear you know Jesus ismeek or called to be gentle, and
they might think, okay, so Ishould not cultivate strength.
I should never kind of learnhow to use a loud voice.
(37:43):
I shouldn't even physically, Ishouldn't lift weights or try to
be physically strong.
I should just be kind of thisweak, tender, gentle, harmless
person.
When that's not, I would saythat is not for men especially.
(38:03):
Yeah, you look at someone likePaul.
Right, paul would not.
Paul had the physical strengthyou could tell this is a strong
dude to be able to take abeating and get back up and go
preach again.
Right, he had developed, Iwould say, not even mental and
spiritual fortitude, butphysical fortitude.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
I mean he was survived being out at sea Prison
.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Yeah, he could take and he could take.
This guy was the ultimate Ironman, yes, and he had leadership
as well as a type of strength.
You know someone might, but ohit's you know meekness is about.
I never kind of speak up or Inever try to like take the lead.
I never kind of speak up or Inever try to like take the lead.
No, paul could take command.
When the ship, um, uh, was youknow pressed in on you know by
(38:48):
the storm and everyone'sfreaking out, paul had the
wherewithal, the the stamina,the strength to be able to take
command and give them hope andpeace While a prisoner and then
convinced a Roman centurion tolet him go.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
So you, paul, was not a harmless man, right?
He was a gentle man who knewhow and when to use his strength
for the good of others ratherthan selfish ambition.
Okay, so what I'm hearing?
Speaker 1 (39:11):
from you, and this might be a way of you need to
cultivate as a person that can'tbe harmless.
You have to have strength, andso let's just go straight, work
out, yes, go.
I don't know, maybe Brazilianjujitsu, just some sort of
martial art, actually have theability to, um, be, inflict
violence if you will, but youhave the mental acuity, holy
(39:34):
spirit, self-control to knowwhen not to use it.
I think what happens for our,our culture, uh, has so been
thumbs down on men being strong,men being men, and so it's
looked down upon in many ways to, sort of like, actively pursue
things of strength.
It's been termed vanity asopposed to being termed
(39:57):
something oh, this is what mendo.
And so I think that a practicalway like work out, have
endurance and physical staminaand strength, have the ability
to know how to handle yourselfin a fight or whatever, but then
, at the same time, have thewherewithal, the knowledge of
God's word, to have the HolySpirit, self-control, to then
(40:19):
not take advantage of others butlook to lift others up control
to then not take advantage ofothers but look to lift others
up.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Exactly, here's the deal, men.
Okay, speaking again to men, Ithink this applies to women as
well.
Um, there is a type of strengththat women need for their
calling.
You know, um, uh, proverbs 31speaks of her making her arms
strong.
She is clothed with strengthand dignity, but it's a
different type of strength.
The glory and strength of awoman is different than the
glory of strength in a man.
Men are bigger, men arestronger, and wicked men will
(40:48):
use that to their advantage, andthe only people who possess you
know what is necessary tooppose a wicked man is a
righteous man who learned tocultivate strength in all of its
ways, with wisdom and virtue,to stand up against evil and
protect people who arevulnerable.
So, for the men especially, yes, cultivate physical strength.
(41:11):
Know God's word in like the mostpractical ways.
If you're a father and your kidgets kidnapped at a park, but
you've never run a mile in yourlife, gets kidnapped at a park,
but you've never run a mile inyour life you think you're going
to be able to catch the youknow?
Or like someone tries to um, uh, rob, you know, rob your, uh,
(41:31):
your wife take, take her purse,threaten her life with a weapon
or something, and you have noability to defend your wife.
Like there's something in youthat's like you need to not only
possess biblical knowledge, butphysical strength and, um, and
the wisdom to not do somethingfoolish, the wisdom to know hey,
take the purse, god bless you.
Or I need, if I don't act now,um, I might lose my wife's life,
(41:54):
or something like that.
You know what I mean.
Like there's a, it's all it all.
Mental, spiritual, physicalstrength, um, strength guided by
wisdom.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Physical training is of some value, but godliness is
far more, and I think godlinessshould be the ultimate thing
which you achieve.
Godliness is achieved throughthe work of Jesus in your life.
Exposing more of your life toJesus through his word, through
his spirit, through his people,will then ultimately make you
stronger, and I know that's thepart where the person said I
don't want to hear about.
Set my foundation on Christ.
(42:24):
However, set your foundation onChrist because that is like
intentional time in the word,when you know the word so well.
When someone comes at you withsomething, you can be calm and
be like man.
I can't do that.
Or I love you too much.
In a marriage situation, I loveyou too much to let us deviate
(42:45):
from God's word.
Yeah, with a child, I love youtoo much to let you disobey.
I'm going to restrain you in anintentional way.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Most of the battles you're going to face in life are
not going to be physical featsof strength.
They're going to be matters ofwisdom, self-control, and the
strength required is going to bea strength you know needed to
carry in a leadership way, yourfamily or your loved ones or
your flock or whatever, in agodly direction.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Right, and I would say consistency as a person,
like when you can developspiritual disciplines that are
regular, that are no matter whatwhat happens in your life, is
that there become principlesthat sort of come up, values,
that sort of come up in yourlife that you do no matter what,
which people respect, notbecause, like, of a fear of you,
(43:42):
but because of respect of you.
And so I think that's whatwe're looking to cultivate here
and I think that's what Jesusdid, obviously, when even the
Pharisees would walk away whenthere was a threatening
situation, because of the wordsJesus spoke, because he was so
immersed in God's word I mean hewas like he could make at any
moment just his word Now,granted, he was like he could
(44:02):
make at any moment it just saysword, now granted, he was God
and all that but like even intimes he was operating I don't
want to say he was neveroperating as Jesus, fully God,
fully man there's my disclaimerbut there was times where he's
operating in a human way, wherewhen it came to like is it right
to pay taxes or not, and he'slike render to Caesar what is
Caesar's?
I mean, that is just genius,human wisdom.
(44:22):
Um, that God obviously like,spoke through.
But like, I think, when youknow God's word so well, you're
able to discern in in betweenthe two things.
And so I think, um, the otherthing, I think that that men
specifically have to learn isit's we live your benefit at my
expense.
Men specifically have to learnis it's we live your benefit at
(44:45):
my expense, and that's Jesusobviously did that on the cross.
It was our benefit at hisexpense.
We are supposed to emulate yourbenefit at my expense, which
means I will, I want to be a manwho lives your benefit at my
expense, and what that means isif that's like a part of the
principle of your life.
I think one of the stories Ireally love about you when your
wife asks you for somethingright as you're about to go to
(45:05):
sleep and you say as you wishStill going strong on that as of
last night, just FYI.
You know I actually used it.
I go as you wish.
I would love to do that, but Ithink that's powerful right,
because what it says is like Ihave the strength to say no, but
I'm going to serve you, yourbenefit, at my expense, because
(45:26):
that's a principle of mine andI'm consistent in that and I'm
not going to go jerk off that tobe like get your own whatever
you know.
Like that, that's a hugereality, that's a huge truth
that people respect and thatbuilds strength and courage so
that when you do put your footdown in a positive way, that
isn't a negative towardswhatever they're wanting to do.
It's their benefit at yourexpense.
(45:47):
Yeah, all right, we kind of.
We pretty much nailed that one,all right, hey guys, thanks so
much for watching.
If you've got any questions, wewould love to hear from you.
This is kind of you provide thefodder for what we talk about,
so you can text us at737-231-0605 or leave a message
for us at pastorplekcom.
We'd love to hear from you,from our house to yours.
(46:08):
Have an awesome week of worship.
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