Nephilim, Demons, and Divine Councils: Exploring the Unseen Realm

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What if everything you thought you knew about angels, demons, and the spiritual realm was just scratching the surface? This episode dives deep into Michael Heiser's groundbreaking book "The Unseen Realm" and explores how it transforms our understanding of the Bible's supernatural worldview.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
And welcome back to Pastor Plek's podcast.
I'm your host, pastor Plek, andsitting alongside me in studio
today, none other than PastorHolland Gregg Howdy.
You know, you are now thestudent pastor of Wells Branch
Community Church, as well as thelead pastor of Eastside
Community Church.
How do you do it, you?

Speaker 2 (00:22):
know I eat my Wheaties every day.
That kind of thing.
That's great, and you knowyou're looking very strong over
there, by the way, wow, hey, youknow I have a great workout
partner at Lifetime Fitness.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
Very huge You're like large and in charge Arms are
bursting out of your shirt.
Bursting, all right, also instudio with us is none other
than Grant Miller.
Hello, grant, let's talk realquick about and you have to be
really close to your microphoneor else and you can raise it up
if you need it to be like, causeyou're kind of tall, uh, have
it like right here.
Anyway, I want you to talk tous about how long you've been a

(00:54):
Christian, what your journey waslike, and then we'll ask you
way more questions about thingsyou're into right now.

Speaker 3 (01:02):
Okay, I was raised, grew up a Christian, stepped
away from the church, considermyself agnostic around age 15.
That lasted for almost 15 yearsuntil I met my now wife, sarah
amazing woman started dating.

(01:24):
She started bringing me back tochurch and you know it's a long
and hard process but gotbaptized in August last year, so
actually just passed myone-year anniversary.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
Hey, that's awesome, hallelujah.
Well, it's great to have youback on.
You've done some couple of coolthings.
One is you had your first likefast experience as a legit
follower of Jesus.
So talk to me about what thatwas like for you and what did
you do.

Speaker 3 (01:55):
Um, yeah, it was really cool.
Um, so I did a three day fastand I drove down to um Terlingua
, texas, which is basicallyright by Big Bend National Park.
Really cool, you know, big opendesert area.
I feel like biblical fastingprobably happened in or around

(02:17):
deserts, so I wanted to kind ofcapture that.
You know, more like empty openlandscape, further away from
people, away from distractions.
So I went out and did that.
I think it was early June.
Really cool experience.
Just, you know, spent basicallyall my time reading the Bible,

(02:38):
read a couple books One of themwas about spiritual discipline
Did a lot of praying and, yeah,I don't know, it was a very cool
experience and I definitelywant to fast again.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
Oh, awesome.
Wow, that's wild.
Okay.
And then one of the books.
I think I gave you this bookback then.
Right Was that right.
You recommended it to me.
Yeah, so I recommended this bookto you back then Unseen Realm
by Michael Heiser, and one thatI've really, really enjoyed and
I wanted us to talk about itespecially for you.

(03:09):
Like, this isn't usually thebook you give.
Like a young sprig Christianhere read a academic highly like
this is probably what you wouldget in a.
You'd read this in getting yourmaster's at seminary, but you
read it and enjoyed it, and so Iwant to get some takeaways, and
I'm a big fan.
Holland's a little skeptical,All right.

(03:30):
So, Holland, I want you to giveyour your best pushback on all
the ideas here, Cause let's walk, let's walk it through.

Speaker 3 (03:39):
Do you remember what you told me when you said I
should read it?
No, what I said if you readthis book, it will change how
you read the Bible.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
Oh wow, Is that true?
Yeah, absolutely.
Oh wow, Look at that.

Speaker 3 (03:49):
Amazing.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
It was prophetic.

Speaker 3 (03:51):
Yeah, yeah.
I also want to say I reallytrust you and I think if anyone
else had recommended this, bookto me.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
I would really excited to talk about it because
I loved it.
When I read it I was like whoa,whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
So very mind-blowing yeah yeah,Very mind-blowing.

Speaker 3 (04:11):
So I want to give a little bit of background to the
book and kind of the mindset ofthe author, Michael Heiser, and
why he wanted to write this.
So this is straight from thebook.
I didn't write anything myself.
This is all notes I took on myKindle.
Yeah, Print them out.

(04:37):
But so some background.
So Michael Heiser says, into asystem that made sense to my
modern mind.
We view the Bible through thelens of what we know and what's
familiar.
Once I'd been awakened to this,it struck me as faithless to
use a filter.
But throwing away my filterscost me the systems with which
I'd ordered Scripture anddoctrine in my mind.
I was left with lots offragments.
The facts of the Bible are justpieces, bits of scattered data.

(05:00):
Our tendency is to impose orderand to do that we apply a
filter.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
Okay, hold on.
So what the premise of the bookis is, I think we talk in terms
of angels, demons, that kind ofthing.
Uh, angels, demons, that kindof thing, but especially in
Bible church world.
Uh, and I think you've reallyonly experienced Bible church

(05:34):
world, honestly.
And so Bible church world wedon't really talk about angels
and demons.
We don't really.
You know, we don't spend muchtime trying to pray too many
hedges of protection aroundthings, cause, you know, I've
always thought, like, can ademon get through a hedge?
Anyway, uh, like thosehedgerows are really big, I
don't know, and that's going tobe really scratchy.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
The only reference to a hedge of protection comes
from Satan.
Does it really Satan, uh,telling God you've put a hedge
of protection around Job?
See, it's the only reference.
So yeah, that's a littleinteresting.

Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yeah, Does that mean that God does?
Yeah, I don't know.
And maybe Satan is afraid ofhedges.
Maybe it's like he's like Ijust can't get past that hedge.

Speaker 3 (06:12):
He wasn't allowed in the garden.
It was full-grown trees.
Well, he was in the garden,right, oh?

Speaker 1 (06:32):
Yeah, edge, though I mean those things are pretty
tightly wound and so like to getthrough it, even as a spirit
shrub.
Monty python joke in there I'vegotten us off track, sorry,
keep going, all right, all rightso.
So I I really appreciated thisand so let's dive into it,
because I know you're readingall this.
I want to kind of go the.
The big thing that we kind ofworked out is.
He gets into like hey, listen,there's a lot of things that we
believe because it's simpler togo like all right, all men are

(06:53):
sinful.
The only way to salvation isJesus.
I think there's some essentialtruths doctrine of soteriology,
which is salvation,sanctification you know the way
we grow closer to God over timehermarshiality, study of sin.
All that stuff is verydoctrinal, it's important, and I
don't think he's not making anydent into that.

(07:14):
What he is getting into isangelology and demonology, and
so I wanted us to kind of talkabout some of the big time
premises that he comes up with,and he starts with Psalm 82.
I feel like that would be likethe cool place for us to kind of
lean into and read that for us,psalm 82, verse one, because I
think that's where this is, andthis is where I want Holland.

(07:34):
You pushed back on earlier likedidn't Jesus quote that and not
mean anything of what MichaelHeiser meant?
Sure, so go ahead, read Psalm82, one.

Speaker 3 (07:46):
God Psalm 821.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
God has taken his place in the divine council, in
the midst of the gods, he holdsjudgment.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
Okay.
So when he says that, what doesthat mean?
What is the divine council,what is in the midst of the gods
, mean?
According?

Speaker 1 (08:01):
to Michael Heiser in Unseen Realm.
Yeah, that's the big questionwhat does Michael Heiser mean,
or what does he think it means?
And I've taken it as that.
Now this might be the part thatI'm taking Michael Heiser's
writing and putting my own spinon it, because I like it so much
that I see it as these areangels that he has appointed.

(08:24):
Now, angels is the only word wehave, and I think he references
, like in the New Testament.
Whenever Paul references divinebeings, he goes with angels, and
so the common word is angels.
That I think across the NewTestament at least, and then
even in the Old Testament.
It's such a large category, butthey're all divine beings that

(08:49):
are not human but are sentientand have a certain amount of
power that was supposed to beunder the authority of God, and
God rules with a shared rulebecause he wants to, not because
he has to it doesn't messanything with his trinity or his
divine power but because hewants to share.
You know, hey, let us make menin our image.
I don't think that's atrinitarian thought.

(09:10):
I think that is a divinecouncil thought of meaning.
Let's make men in our own image, meaning, uh, a coming up with
a, uh, a people who are capable,functional, kind kind of
reference the autonomy andagency that God has, but clearly
less than God, but in the imageAll right.

(09:32):
So whenever Psalm 82 comes upand it says like here's God
sitting, you're sitting, that'sthe next part.

Speaker 3 (09:42):
Oh sorry, yeah, he's placed in the divine council, in
the midst of the gods.

Speaker 1 (09:45):
He holds judgment in the midst of the gods he holds
judgment.
I think the Elohim here, or thegods, are the lesser angelic
beings that make up the divinecouncil.
That's where I would go withthat Holland thoughts.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
Well, do we want to hear, like, what's his take on
it first before I kind of what'sMichael Heiser's take, if you
want to?

Speaker 3 (10:08):
The point that he is making here and he's going back
to the original Hebrew is thatthis verse specifically so God
with a capital G.
You know, big God has taken hisplace in the divine council in
the midst of the lowercase ggods.
He holds judgment and in thehebrew that is elohim, as in god
the father, you know, the godcapital g and then elohim plural

(10:33):
.
So the same word used for godthe father used again, but in a
plural form, and that is adifferent word than angels,
which would be malik or malachiin Hebrew.
So if they were referencingangels, I think it would use the
word angels rather than God.

Speaker 1 (10:51):
So it's something else.
But I think it's hard to knowbecause angel just means
messenger and so it gets alittle confusing on, because
whenever you have an interactionwith an angel, they're usually
delivering a messenger.
And they're delivering amessenger and they're delivering
a message, but when they're inthe divine council they're not

(11:13):
messaging anything.
They're just, in fact, they'rejust sitting there, but I don't
know if there's another wordthat describes them.
So I'm okay with going.
There is a divine council.
There are these beings in thedivine council that are in an
angelic realm, and again, angelis the only word I have for it.
I don't think you have aproblem with that.

Speaker 2 (11:34):
Angels, right?
Yeah, no, I think MichaelHeiser's position, though just
looking at the notes he printedout, it sounds like he's saying
that these are non-angelicdivine beings, because you're
saying Elohim means not angel,but they're also not God, but
they are divine.
So non-divine or non-angelicdivine beings Could you call

(11:54):
them?

Speaker 1 (11:55):
superhuman.
Would that be okay?
I mean, that's the thing,that's probably— Divine.
What does that mean?
Divine means is that God orgodlike?
I don't know, SuperpowersHeavenly.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
Like they reside in heaven.
They live in heaven with Godand the angels Right.
So, yeah, my pushback on thatidea is the Bible gives us
categories of angels and demonsas spiritual beings.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yep, I would say it does not give us another
category of non-angelic divinebeings.
But what would you?
The divine council and Job?
Would you just call thoseangels?

Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, so I'm okay with I don't that's where I land
.
I don't think that's whereMichael Heiser lands, but with
Psalm 82 specifically, if youkeep reading the Psalm, yeah,
and maybe you're getting to this, but I'd love to hear y'all's
thoughts.
He's in the midst of the gods,he holds judgment, right, okay,
and so you go.
Okay, this sounds like he's inheaven with other divine beings

(12:54):
talking about stuff, sure,judging.
Then he says, verse two howlong will you judge unjustly and
show partiality to the wickedRight?
Then he says give justice tothe weak and the fatherless,
maintain the right of theafflicted and the destitute.
Yep, these are things thathuman rulers are responsible for
.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
Okay, but let's just say Hold on.
All right, all right, all right, hold on hold, on hold, on.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
I'll let you keep going.
Rescue the weak and the needy,Deliver them.
From the Verse 6, I said youare gods, sons of the Most High,
all of you.
Verse 7, nevertheless, like men, you shall die and fall like
any prince and fall like anyprince, and so my take on that
is that that verse he'sreferring to— but then read

(13:35):
verse 8.
Read verse 8.
Arise, o God.

Speaker 1 (13:37):
judge the earth For you shall inherit all the
nations, all right, okay, whatare you saying there?

Speaker 2 (13:45):
So to me, these gods, these sons of God, God's divine
counsel, are people who areruling over people under God.
They're human rulers, likeprinces, who will die because
they're normal humans.
Spirits don't die.
Angels and demons don't die.
Do people die?
What Do people die?
People die.
Angels and demons don't die.
Do people die?

(14:05):
What Do people die?

Speaker 1 (14:07):
People die Eternally.
Everyone's going to livesomewhere forever.
That's true.

Speaker 2 (14:12):
To die means that you have a body and you die.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
Your body dies, or it could mean that there's an
eternal hell that you're goingto experience.

Speaker 2 (14:20):
Okay.
But he says like men, you shalldie and fall like any prince,
okay, okay.
But he says like men, you shalldie and fall like any prince,
okay.
So in general, I think theseare human rulers who have
responsibility to represent Godover the people.
Then Jesus quotes this in John10.

Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
Let's see what he says.
John 10,.
He says Jesus answered them.
Is it not written in your law Isaid you are gods, says Jesus
answered them.
Is it not written in your law Isaid you are gods.
If he called them gods to whomthe word of God came, and
scripture cannot be broken, doyou say of him, whom the father
consecrated and sent into theworld, you're blaspheming
because I said I am the son ofGod.
So his point is saying I canrightfully be called son of God

(15:01):
because even these other humanrulers were called gods, or okay
, or or.
That's to whom the word of Godcame.

Speaker 1 (15:10):
Sure the word of God.
So Psalm 82 written down for usto get a glimpse into what God
is saying to the angelic realm.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
But that would be.
That would be Jesus comparinghimself to divine beings rather
than to—which weakens hisargument.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
No, no, I think it's— he's claiming to be divine.
So he's claiming to be—he'ssaying Jesus didn't design the
existence of other Elohim.
He's flipping the charge ofblasphemy by pointing out that
Scripture itself acknowledgesother divine beings.

Speaker 2 (15:44):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
Yeah, Not my interpretation, but fair enough,
Sure, sure, but so I'm notagain.
One thing I want to be carefulto stay with in orthodoxy and
that's where I'm like I don't, Idon't.
The problem I have with Heiser,if there is one, is I don't
think he.
He just puts his Elohim, heprobably this.
He just puts his Elohim.
Probably this is a safe placeto go.
He doesn't create anothercategory, he just says Elohim,

(16:07):
You're like all right, fine,Elohim.
And so Elohim is sometimesreferenced as God himself, when
he kind of puts a royal we on it.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
Meaning the im ending in Hebrew means plural Right,
so something im is a plural.
So Elohim means gods, but itrefers to God also.

Speaker 1 (16:27):
Yeah.
So because I think we can dothis like hey, the council
decided and you could say thelead pastor said that.
You could say the elderchairman said that you can kind
of go anywhere with the eldercouncil counsel.
You know it's a, it's somethinginherently means plural, um.
So the way I'm, I'm looking atthis in psalm 82 is it's a god

(16:52):
is judging the, the, the elohimthat he has put in place, and
they have not given justice.
They have not.
They have kind of been lookingfor power, looking to like I
will get for the commodity ofworship.
I'm going to go and I'mthrowing you to the ground and

(17:27):
you are going to fall like anyman because you're worthless.
And the reason why I like verse8, arise, o God, judge the
earth, for you shall inherit allthe nations.
Heiser's point is that God hadsort of appointed these other
Divine beings yeah, divinebeings of sort heavenly beings

(17:49):
authority over different peoplesall over the place, and then
they hadn't administered justicein the way that they were
called to do, or overseen theirpeople, who were made in
Yahweh's image sorry, inElohim's image and that they
should have been doing, and sothey have failed their job.
And so what Jesus is doing ishe's pointing out, like, listen,
like, clearly, sons of the mosthigh, all of you, he's just

(18:13):
saying, like, this isn't evensomething that is debated, this
is something that's been knownthroughout history.
So I so I again, because Idon't have a better vocabulary,
because Heiser doesn't give all,he used the words the Bible
uses I would just say that thoseare for what we would
understand to be angels anddemons.
Um, because they fall away andnow they're the ones that battle

(18:34):
.
Michael, for example, andDaniel, yeah, where is it?
Which chapter?

Speaker 2 (18:41):
Daniel, yeah 7 to 12.
12.
13 would be the top part,second half, for sure.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yeah, so I think that's what I'm looking at, that
as these divine beings, and thereason why I said it changes
the way I read the Bible.
I feel like there is a lot moresupernatural warfare.

Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah, so I agree with that.
I agree that there, you know,one of his points in here is
there's a hierarchy of spiritualbeings, right?
I agree that there, you know,one of his points in here is
there's a hierarchy of spiritualbeings, right, which I agree
with you.
That's what archangel meansChief angel, ruler among the
angels.
So you have Michael, you haveother, you know, you have
Gabriel.
You have these angels who arenamed, obviously recognized.
You also have different classesof angels seraphim, cherubim,

(19:20):
and so I think that exists.
You also, in Ephesians 6, wherePaul talks about putting on
spiritual armor, that our battleis not, we don't wrestle
against flesh and blood, butagainst the rulers, authorities,
authorities, principalities,cosmic powers, yeah, and so what

(19:46):
does that mean?
That means that there is ahierarchy of demons as well,
yeah, um, that, uh, satan, youknow has, is chief among them,
um, and that there are.
It implies organization.
It implies you know differentum, uh, what's it called?
What's the outposts?
You know that, geographically,yeah, frontier or fobs, forward,

(20:09):
operating base.
So I agree with all of thatthat there is spiritual warfare
going on.
Daniel gives you a glimpse ofit.
That there's hierarchy,leadership, organization, rulers
in the spiritual realm.
My only pushback is I don'tagree with the interpretation of
psalm 82, but I also think, hey, maybe he's right, um, but the

(20:31):
idea of non-angelic divinebeings, that's a tough one for
me to agree with yeah, I justdon't know what else.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
yeah, what do you think on when you, when you read
the non-angel, I just feel likethat's the word, that's the
only word we really have.

Speaker 3 (20:45):
So are angels otherwise referred to as sons of
God.

Speaker 1 (20:51):
So that's the question.
So when we go back to, let's goback to Genesis 6.
Yeah, the sons of God,daughters of men.
What does that mean?
I always thought sons of Godwere angelic beings.

Speaker 3 (21:00):
Can we read that real quick?

Speaker 1 (21:02):
Yeah, let me pull it up.
It's not much.
That's what's tough about it.

Speaker 2 (21:06):
Let me share this the phrase sons of does not
necessarily mean biological orit means a class of.
So you read in 2 Kings withElisha.
You read about the sons of theprophets.
Prophets are not the same aspriests.
Priests were all the biologicalsons of Levi, aaron, right,

(21:26):
right.
So sons of the priests means aspecific family line.
Sons of the prophets means,essentially, his disciples.
He had trained up otherprophets.
They were the sons of theprophets in the sense that they
were being trained up andutilized by God in a particular
way, but they belonged frommultiple different tribes,
trained up and utilized by Godin a particular way, but they
belonged from multiple differenttribes.

(21:46):
So sons of God, if youunderstood in like that same
type of way, could be those whoare under the you know rulership
of God and his representatives.
So that could be angels who arerepresenting God.
It could be the angel of theLord, it could be Christ, right,
that's why I usually go withthe angel of the Lord.
It could be Christ.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
Right.
That's why I usually go withthe angel of the Lord.

Speaker 2 (22:05):
I usually go to Jesus or it could be humans serving
in the offices of prophet,priest and king, which were
essentially different ways ofGod relating to people.
Kings ruled under God overpeople.
Prophets spoke on behalf of Godto people.
Priests spoke to God on behalfof people.
All of those are, in a sense,godly offices that could be

(22:30):
called sons of God.
They were the rulers.
Okay, so there?

Speaker 1 (22:33):
you go.
When man began to multiply onthe face of the land and
daughters were born of them, thesons of God saw that the
daughters of man were attractiveand they took as their wives
any they chose.
Then the Lord said my spiritshall not abide in man forever

(22:53):
for his flesh.
His days shall be 120 years.
The Nephilim were on the earthin those days and also afterward
, when the sons of God came intothe daughters of men and they
bore children to them.
And these were the mighty menwho were of old, the men of
renown.
And this is where and this iswhere he kind of gives.
I don't know if he makes thesame case for this and this

(23:15):
might be me just being out ofcontrol.
So I totally, I totally am okaywith that.
But when I think about theheroes of old, like, who were
these mighty men?
Could you go?
Achilles like this could you go?
You know, some god has sex withsome earthly woman, creates a
demigod.
He has certain powers, and thatis that what god's talking

(23:38):
about here uh, it makes for verypopular children books and tv
shows it does.
I love that idea.
It sounds cool.
So they were the mighty men whorevolt.
Which mighty men?
That's a gibberim.
That's the warriors.
David had mighty men, right.
That seems like a positivething, so I have a hard time

(23:59):
with that.
What does that mean?
The men of renown, these greatmen?
But were they ones that receiveworship of some kind?
And so, ultimately, theiractivity on earth was idolatrous
and they had to be killed offbecause they were a demigod,
which their very existence wasrebellion towards the God who is
.

Speaker 3 (24:20):
So go ahead, he does.
Yeah, he establishes all ofthat.
So I think he draws aconnection between flooding the
earth.
So I think in that same versehe talks about corruption is
spreading across the earth.
Michael Heiser makes theargument that part of the
corruption that God is trying towipe out is the Nephilim, the
sons of God having children withthe daughters of man.

(24:40):
So these, you know, call themdemigods or giants, whatever you
want to call them.
So part of the flood was towipe those out.
But later on I don't rememberwhere it says that the Nephilim
still lived on the earth, so theflood didn't wipe them out.
And then Michael Heiser makesthe case that whenever Moses is
supposed to take the Israelitesinto the promised land and they

(25:03):
have to fight off all theseother people, it's kind of like
a strategic campaign toeliminate all of the Nephilim in
the surrounding area.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
So this is the hard part that I have and this is the
part where I, as I read it, Idon't think I fully understood
this.
So maybe you were taking betternotes Whenever the flood comes,
because there were Nephilimthere.
But it says here the Nephilimwere on the earth in those days
and also afterward, meaningafter the flood is what I think
that means.
So somehow the Nephilimsurvived.

Speaker 3 (25:32):
Or they came back down again after the flood.
Okay that, Because the floodwas supposed to wipe out
everything except.

Speaker 1 (25:37):
So he's just because, like when I read that the Lord
said to my spirit shall notabide in man for his flesh, in
said to my spirit shall notabide a man for his flesh, in
his day she'll be 120 years.
I think my first read was thatpeople are going to die at 120.
So I went over to Moses.
Ah, see, moses dies at 120.
However, aaron dies at like 127.
So I can't be right.
It's, I think, from this pointis when Noah is told to build

(25:57):
the ark and he builds, it takeshim 120 years to build the ark
and then he floods the earth.
I think that's what that means.
Is that?
Would that be?

Speaker 2 (26:03):
right and some people say yes, some people say no
it's not helpful so back realquick to the nephilim.

Speaker 3 (26:11):
Yes, they're also mentioned again in numbers
whenever moses sends uh, caleband, I think, joshua spies and
uh, most of the spies come backand they say, like the land is
terrible, they're all giants orgrasshoppers, right, um?
So how do we interpret that?

Speaker 1 (26:23):
is that like the?

Speaker 3 (26:23):
land is terrible.
They're all giants orgrasshoppers, Right.
So how do we interpret that?
Is that like the spies are kindof being dramatic so they can
come back with bad news weshouldn't go?
Or is that kind of an accuratedescription of the people there?

Speaker 1 (26:34):
I think it has to be an accurate description.
And the reason why I think it?
Because you don't have GoliathRight and you don't have
Goliath's brother.

Speaker 3 (26:43):
I think there were two or three other giants.

Speaker 1 (26:45):
Yeah, like these guys are huge dudes Nine feet, nine
inches tall, roughly.
I mean that's massive, and soto have a giant like that, I
don't know how much interactionthey had with other people,
right, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (27:00):
I just think this whole thing to me.
I go Genesis 1 and 2,everything reproduces after its
own kind.
Okay, the idea of angels orother divine beings reproducing
with people makes no sense to me.
That's like a really tough onefor me to be like yeah, that

(27:22):
could happen.

Speaker 3 (27:23):
So who are the sons of God in Genesis?

Speaker 1 (27:25):
Yeah, and and follow up.
Who is Goliath?

Speaker 2 (27:30):
A giant Yao Ming Genetic.
He's Yao Ming With a sword.

Speaker 1 (27:38):
Going in a lab.
I mean nine, nine, yeah, that'stwo feet taller than Yao Ming.

Speaker 2 (27:44):
No, Yao Ming's only seven.
He's not eight foot.
I thought he was eight foot.

Speaker 1 (27:48):
No.

Speaker 2 (27:49):
Oh man Okay.

Speaker 1 (27:50):
He's like seven two, seven three.

Speaker 2 (27:52):
Seven, six, yeah, you're right.
You're right, I thought he waseight.
Okay, so he's taller than YaoMing, two feet tall.
That so I'd say the idea soundsintriguing, but it goes against

(28:13):
the idea of God's creationreproducing after its own kind.
And Jesus' statement in Luke 20or something I think it's also
in Matthew, is this where aboutangels?
Yeah, they'll be like theangels Talking about who's she
going to be married to in thelife to come.
Well, people won't marry and begiven in marriage.
Rather, they'll be like theangels Talking about you know
who's she going to be married toin the life to come?
Well, people won't marry and begiven in marriage.
Rather, they'll be like theangels.
To me, that says the angels area different class of created

(28:36):
beings who do not marry andreproduce.
They are spirits.
That's Hebrews 1 and 2, rightMinistering spirits.
So spirits.
They don't have bodies, theydon't die, they're eternal
beings, and so it sets themapart as a different class.
The idea of angels and humansprocreating together just makes

(28:58):
no sense to me, so that's toughfor me.

Speaker 3 (29:01):
I think that kind of establishes that the sons of God
aren't angels, right?
So here's what I would sayAngels can't reproduce.
And it's saying the sons of Godwent down and took the sons of
man.
I will not fall into this trapNow hang on, but it feels like
you're kind of reinforcing the—.

Speaker 2 (29:18):
Remember earlier I said, sons of is a type of—it
can be like a sons of prophets.
It doesn't mean that there'slike a familial, biological
connection.
It means that you come afterthe type of the thing that
you're the son of.

Speaker 1 (29:34):
So a type of God.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
A type of yeah after his.
Well, yes, in the same way thatwe were made in God's image,
but specifically in your role,sons of God.
I said this earlier.
It could refer to angelsserving as God's messengers.
It could refer to prophets,priests and kings, so rulers.
In a sense, any of those couldbe referred to as sons of God
Angels, prophets priests, kings.

Speaker 1 (30:02):
But would a race of people come out Like the
Nephilim seems to be a race ofpeople?
Come out like the nephilimseems to be a race of people.
Okay, so that's where I'm likeit's.
It's created its own like?

Speaker 2 (30:13):
and how do you know?

Speaker 1 (30:14):
it's a race of people the nephilim were on the earth
in those days and also afterward, when the sons of god came into
the daughters of man and theybore children to them if it was
a race of people based on thebearing of children, then how
could they survive after theflood and still be on the earth?

Speaker 2 (30:28):
Unless it is a class of people, not a race of people.
But I think this is where,unless you're saying angels came
down again after the flood, butthere's no record of that.
That's all conjecture.

Speaker 1 (30:40):
That's the record right here.
What's the afterward about?
Like the afterward has to beabout.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
That's the record right here.
What's the afterword about?

Speaker 1 (30:47):
Like the afterword has to be about.
The only survivors of the floodwere Noah and his family.
Right, but that but get.
So the angels come down againand they restart with Noah's
family.
You know descendants of Noah,maybe Lot's daughters, you know
they were.
It wasn't just their dad thatthey got with.
Maybe they're like you know,I'll take some demons.
Okay, you know I'll take somedemons, yeah, okay, you know.
I'm just saying like, justlooking for any available hosts.

Speaker 2 (31:09):
Okay, but so far there's no explicit statement
anywhere in the Bible thatangels and humans can reproduce
together.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
There's no statement Other than that other than
Genesis 6.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
It doesn't say angels , it says sons of God.
Aren't you saying that the sonsof God are angels?
I'm saying they could be angelsor human rulers.
Either one, so in that case Iwould say they're human rulers,
not angels, which is the same aswhat I would say they are in
Psalm.

Speaker 3 (31:34):
Way not as cool.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
Way not as cool, I know it's not as cool and I
don't like being the not coolguy.

Speaker 3 (31:39):
Oh man, you are not cool.
In that context, though, itwould be the sons of God
marrying with people outside ofwho they should be marrying,
right, all right, so?

Speaker 2 (31:49):
have you heard this theory?
Oh, here we go.
You have basically a split inthe early chapters of Genesis,
yep, between Cain and Abel.
First, uh-huh, abel's replacedwith Seth Yep.
Cain's line basically followsdown those who rebel against God
, yep, whereas Seth's linefollows down those who are

(32:11):
faithful to God.
Okay, in general.
So yeah, keep going.
Now it could be that the sonsof God are referring to the
rulers from Seth's line who arefaithful to God.
The rulers from Seth's line whowere faithful to God and the
daughters of men are referringto the women on Cain's line who
were unfaithful, and so you havea juxtaposition there of these

(32:36):
two kind of branches that areopposed to each other and still
using the idea of human rulers,but you don't have the idea of
angels having sex with people.
So I'm not saying that is.
I'm just saying that's anotherposited explanation of why that
language is used.
I don't know if you all haveheard that before or what

(32:58):
y'all's thoughts are.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yeah, I think that was more of the common boring
view.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
I'll be quiet.
Why don't you guys just talkabout the cool stuff?

Speaker 1 (33:07):
Yeah, that's way better.
All right, so here in Genesis 1, this is fallen angels who
married women.
All right Argument in favor ofthis view.
No, I'm on constable.
Okay.
The term sons of God as itoccurs here in Hebrew only
refers to angels in the OldTestament Job 1.6, 2.1, 38.7, et

(33:28):
al.
Response angels do notreproduce Matthew 22.30.
So that's the problem with thatone, Although I would say maybe
they were punished with notbeing able to reproduce.
All right, 2 Peter, 2.4 and 5and Jude 6 and 7 appear to
identify angels with thisincident Response.
There are no other referencesto angels in the context here in
Genesis.
These New Testament passagesprobably refer to the fall of
Satan.
However, there is like a realtaunting going on to these evil

(33:51):
beings that thought they weregetting worshipped by men and
kind of ruling on earth.
And so I kind of like that forJude and 2 Peter as like they
get theirs?

Speaker 2 (34:04):
Do angels have bodies , physical bodies?

Speaker 3 (34:07):
They're described with bodies.
Right In Revelation.
They are described with bodies.
John like falls to his kneesand starts worshiping an angel.
Physical bodies.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
I mean, what's he?
He's got to be looking atsomething.
It's not like just a lightright, it's like he says somehow
these angels have scrolls intheir hands.

Speaker 2 (34:25):
Does God have a physical body?
No, okay, god is spirit.
Yep, god does not have aphysical body.
Angels are referred to asspirits Ministering spirits
Ministering spirits.
Why would we think that angelshave a physical body that has

(34:46):
semen?

Speaker 1 (34:47):
Okay, hold on hold on that can reproduce with a woman
.
Watch this, watch this.
Do you know of any woman in theBible I can't wait for this who
gave birth to a child?
Okay, sure, did not have sexwith a man, but a spirit

(35:08):
overcame her.

Speaker 2 (35:08):
Okay, so you're saying that angels have the
ability to overshadow humanwomen and impregnate them like
the Holy Spirit?

Speaker 1 (35:21):
I'm not saying it can happen, I'm just saying we've
seen it before.
So I mean clearly God can.

Speaker 2 (35:26):
So these'm just saying we've seen it before, so
I mean, clearly God can.
So these women were like unholyMarys, yes, who had demon
babies, demon babies.

Speaker 1 (35:34):
Exactly.
No, I mean, okay, all right,that's a crazy comparison, but
it's not wrong.
Let me hear some more.
Like I'm saying, like thesedemons, they want to get to God,
and this is kind of the thingthat Heiser makes the point of.
It's like these demons haverebelled from the council.
They're like on their own.
They want to get back at Godfor their fallen state.

(35:55):
So they find the attractivewomen, make them further evil
and kind of procreate with thesedemonic things to achieve
worship for themselves throughtheir progeny.
Wow, okay.

Speaker 3 (36:14):
And they do it before the flood and potentially after
.

Speaker 2 (36:16):
Thank you, all right, so you have demons using demon
powers to make human womenpregnant, to give birth to
demigod-type beings with immensesize and strength.
So God does I mean?
It sounds cool, like I love it.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
I want to believe it, but God does the ultimate 180
in that he doesn't give himself?
Does Heiser say that I don'tthink so.

Speaker 3 (36:40):
Does he compare it to Mary being no, no, no, no, no.
I think Chris is justestablishing like that yeah, no,
no.
Because there's a case of inthe Bible someone being pregnant
who didn't have sex.
That doesn't rule it out as apossibility, Right, okay, All it
says there is that— and itcould be that God reverses.

Speaker 1 (36:55):
The demons came to get power and control, and Jesus
is the ultimate show of God's,display of his love and grace.
Display of his love and grace.
And then he redeems the worldwhere they want to curse the
humans, and so he, bycontrolling them, making them
worship, and he then comes inhuman form.
Holy Spirit overshadows Mary.

Speaker 2 (37:14):
Boom.
So he's like an anti-NephilimJesus Bam.

Speaker 1 (37:20):
Bam.
He's better than the Nephilimyou know there's sometimes.
He's better Moses, betterMelchizedek, because he's
showing the ultimate meekness,because he doesn't have to be
nine feet tall.
The demons could have been liketwo feet tall too.
They could have been like minidemons, but that doesn't inspire

(37:41):
fear or anything.
Jesus comes as a baby, which iswhy they emphasize him.
Being born of a baby in amanger, in a back alley,
somewhere, and then he grows up,is a man, has complete power,
but chooses to use it inGod-like ways only when it
advances the kingdom of God.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
I'll be honest, I never thought about demons being
able to impregnate women withsome kind of demon power instead
of a physical procreation.
I don't know that I'm sold onit, but it's an interesting idea
.

Speaker 3 (38:17):
I want to say I don't think that's the argument being
made here, but I think that isone potential kind of out there
explanation.

Speaker 1 (38:24):
Maybe Kaiser got us like halfway there and I'm
taking the cross to finish line.
Wow.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
He walked, so you could run.

Speaker 3 (38:30):
Yes, so another thing that I wanted to talk about
that he brings up is that Jesusis the only begotten son, right?
Yeah, which the Greek for thatis, and I don't know Greek, so
I'm going to say it wrongMonogenes, genes, monogenes.
So Michael Heiser says thatthat is a mistranslation, uh-oh,

(38:53):
and that it implies that thereis a time when the son did not
exist, that he had a beginning,right, if he was begotten, then
that means he had a beginning,but that shouldn't be true.

Speaker 1 (39:03):
If it's not right.
Yeah, so Jesus is eternal,right?
So what, Kaiser?
Is saying is it's only begottenson.
It's a tough translationbecause it doesn't fully get the
nuance of the eternality ofJesus, who is the second person
of the Trinity, who, when heenters into Mary he then now
becomes human, like the Trinityexperiences a change in that

(39:28):
humanity is added to it.

Speaker 3 (39:30):
So his argument is that it doesn't really mean only
begotten, as in God's only son,but rather it comes from the
Greek terms monos and genos, soone of a kind or unique.
So basically he is a son setapart from directly.

Speaker 2 (39:51):
The other sons can't argue with that I think that you
can and should argue with it,and here's why all right, all
right.
This would be correct me if I'mwrong, but I think would be
officially heresy, because he isgoing against the Nicene Creed,
which uses the language.
We believe in one Lord, jesusChrist, the only son of God,

(40:12):
eternally begotten of the Father.

Speaker 1 (40:14):
So I think he's saying Jesus is eternal and the
word begotten is just.
It's not a full understanding,because when you think begotten,
you think it has a start.

Speaker 2 (40:26):
Right, but eternally.
His response to that is toditch begotten and say that's
not what that means Right,Whereas the Council of Nicaea?
Which this year is the 1700thanniversary of the Council of
Nicaea in 325 AD.
Wow, they use the languageeternally begotten, keeping.

(40:46):
Begotten not as in Jesus wascreated.

Speaker 1 (40:50):
They just made it smart enough to have another
word.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
They meant, in terms of the order of relationship
between the father and the son,that they're maintaining.
Father and son, it's not twofathers Right.
A father and son carries a typeof order with it, not a
hierarchy within the Trinity,but an order of relationships.

(41:15):
So the Nicene Creed keepseternally begotten.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
Sure, I'm down with that, and I think that even
Heiser would say like listen,they had to put another
adjective into it because theword wasn't sufficient.

Speaker 3 (41:28):
Okay, so to Creed's.
He says Creed's serve a usefulpurpose.
They distill important, albeitcarefully selected, theological
ideas, but they are not inspired, they are no substitute for the
biblical text.
True.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
But what he's saying is you know, michael Heiser is
no substitute for the biblicaltext either.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
You're not choosing between theBible and the Nicene Creed.
You're choosing between MichaelHeiser and the Nicene Creed,
right, and which one betterfaithfully represents scripture,
which is inspired, right?
My take would be I'm going togo with the Nicene Creed, even

(42:06):
though I think Michael Heiser'sa cool guy.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
I don't think Michael Heiser is going against the
Nicene Creed.
He's just saying the words theyused were all they had.
He's going against the.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
Nicene Creed.
He just wrote a paragraphsaying that.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
It's like saying the word begotten is lacking.
Oh, that's why you have to addeternally to it, because then
that's the only way it makes itfit.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
If that's what he said, I'd be like cool but
that's not what he said.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
Let me say again his point.
So for, years monogenes wasthought to have derived from two
Greek terms monos, meaning only, and genou, to beget or bear.
Greek scholars later discoveredthat the second part of the
word, monogenes, does not comefrom the Greek verb genal, but
rather from the noun genos,which means class or kind.

(42:53):
So one class, one kind.
He's a one of a kind Jesus.

Speaker 2 (42:59):
Class only.
So he's a special type of sonand there are other sons also.
That's his point, right.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
Like they're sons of gods, like we just read in
Genesis 6,.
But this is the son of Yahweh,the Yahweh class of God.
Yes, right, everyone else isjust angelic, divine being types
.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
Yeah Well.
So look, I don't.
I'm not the end-all, be-all,I'm just saying I disagree with
Michael Heiser and I go with theNicene Creed, but you guys can
do whatever you want.

Speaker 3 (43:27):
That's why I'm saying I don't think he disagrees with
.
It's something to chew on, it'sa way to reinterpret when
you're reading the Bible Whoaheresy hunters.

Speaker 1 (43:36):
Listen, I'm just saying that he's like hey,
eternally begotten is the onlywords that we could put in,
because it it they're having togo with what they got, but if,
if it had been originallytranslated, he's a one of a kind
class of being.
He is the son of God, samesubstance as God, um, unique

(43:59):
person.
All that that would have beenreally helpful, but they didn't
say that.

Speaker 3 (44:04):
When we're talking about John 3, 16,.
Right yeah, For God so lovedthe world that he gave his one
of a kind son that whoeverbelieves in him shall not perish
but have eternal life, Rightyeah.
So I mean, I don't think itreally changes anything, yeah,
it's just.
This is another little yeah alittle nuance.
You know Something to you,something that he points out,
that might be used to establishthat God has other sons or God

(44:27):
has a divine family.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
Fair enough, I've stated my points, I do not need
to belabor them any longer.

Speaker 3 (44:33):
All right, all right, all right, keep going, give us
our next thing, so God's imagers, which would be humanity.
Yeah, I think God created us tobe his imagers and I think
there's a lot of good stuff inhere that he talks about.
One of the things he addressesis, you know, free will.
Like we couldn't truly be God'simagers if we didn't have free
will because God has free will,right If we couldn't decide what

(44:57):
we want to do, even if it meansrebelling against him, then we
wouldn't be like God, wewouldn't be made in his image.
Any thoughts on that?
Chris?
I know you've talked aboutbeing God's imagers before.

Speaker 1 (45:11):
Yeah, I think this goes back to divine counsel.
He's saying let us make God inour own image.
This isn't a Trinitarianthought, this is a divine
counsel thought, and so it's anElohim statement.
Let us make God and he issharing as God has always done.
He is such a gracious, good Godthat he shares his divine power

(45:34):
with those he has created.
And so let's make man our ownimage.
He's like kind of spreading thecredit around.
He's wanting sentient beingswho have their own ability to
reject him, which ultimatelyangels do and humanity does,
which shows just how wild of alove God has and just kind of
shows you why AI will alwayshave a failing until it gets its

(45:55):
own soul and then tries to takeover the world.
But what happens is if youcreate something that can only
obey what you tell it to do,then it never can have a real
relationship with you.
It only does what it'sprogrammed.
But if you're able to create asentient being that has its own
agency, has its own thing andthat's what the angels were, the
Elohim had all of that, meaningthat they had their ability to

(46:19):
rebel, which they did then theymake human beings in that same
agency.
Now I don't know when the falltook place in the order of
creation.
Maybe it was between Genesis1-1 and Genesis 1-2.
I don't know, or maybe beforethat.
I don't know when the fall tookplace.
Would you have any thought onthat?

Speaker 2 (46:39):
Fall of.

Speaker 1 (46:40):
The angelic realm?
Oh yeah, no, so wherever thatis because clearly there was a
fallen angel Satan in the gardento mess with Um and maybe he
had a little demon sex with thesnake and produced a super snake

(47:03):
.

Speaker 2 (47:04):
Now we're talking.
Now we're talking about somereal biblical theology, right.

Speaker 1 (47:12):
I'm just saying, you know like we could go there.
But I guess what I'm saying islike how Leviathan is that
Leviathan it could be, could be?
How do you think we gotdinosaurs?
All right, anyways, all right.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
Dinosaurs, all right.
Anyways, dinosaurs are theresult of demons spiritually
demon impregnating lizards andsnakes.
That's exactly right.

Speaker 1 (47:34):
They're like what would be the freakiest thing
ever I know.
Let's take what God has made,distort it, and so God had to
wipe them out, and he wiped themall out in the flood Right, not
with the meteorite.

Speaker 2 (47:44):
I'm glad we're in agreement.

Speaker 1 (47:46):
Don't believe the lies, all right.
So I mean, I'm just saying it'sa possibility, am I right?
Yep?

Speaker 2 (47:51):
Okay, so I mean no, but I mean yeah, sure, sure.

Speaker 1 (47:55):
Why not?
All right.
So the snake comes up to Eveand deceives her because it has
agency to deceive, and it usesthe very gift that God gave it,
which was the ultimate form oflove, which says I can reject
you, but I choose to love you.
And then now Jesus, in hisinfinite love, allows all of
humanity to suffer, which isgood in Romans 9.

(48:16):
He then chooses some to thennot be thrown into the fire but
to love him, so the objects ofhis glory can then worship him,
ultimately alongside those whocan't, because they are thrown
into the pit of hell.
So you still have the battleraging between the angelic and
demonic classes, and we are kindof at the crown of creation,

(48:41):
the primary objects of theirbattle, which is why we don't
wrestle against, you know, fleshand blood, but against the
spiritual forces of darkness.

Speaker 3 (48:48):
All right.
So he says that God alonecreated humankind to function as
his administrators on earth.
But he has also created theother Elohim of the unseen realm
.
They're also like him, theycarry out his will in that realm
, acting as his representatives,and God's desire was to live
among us and for us to rule andreign with him.

(49:12):
But with the fall, we were castout of Eden.
Right, God can no longer dwellwith humans until the tabernacle
and basically God's missionthat he gave to humanity was to
spread Eden throughout the earth.
Right, Um, like that was thecharge that Adam and Eve were
given is to spread Edenthroughout the earth, paradise

(49:33):
right where God could reside.
Um, and then, ultimately, Jesusfulfills that mission.
So so here's.

Speaker 1 (49:40):
Here's where I think here's the areas of tension.
That, first off, he is clearlymonotheistic.
He believes that Jesus is fullyGod, fully man, he believes
scripture is the highestauthority and he believes in
spiritual warfare.
I think everyone right there islike same page.
The place where I think we havethe disagreement is Psalm 82
and the divine council.
So the traditional orthodoxy isthe gods are metaphorical human

(50:03):
judges, aka Holland's BoringView.
Heiser would say they're realspiritual beings of some sort.
I would say that they areangels, because I don't have a
better word.
I say it's the Elohim that madeup the divine council that some
fell and then some were still.
Two-thirds were righteous,one-third fell.

(50:24):
That's where I would go withthat.

Speaker 3 (50:25):
And can we jump to 1 Kings 22, because that's another
divine council meeting.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
Some were still.
Two-thirds were righteous,one-third fell.
That's where.

Speaker 3 (50:32):
I would go with that.
And can we jump to 1 Kings 22?
Because that's another divinecouncil meeting.
Go to 1 Kings 22.
Hit it.
I don't have it pulled up, butit's King Ahab, right, and he is
up to that point, I think, theworst, most evil king that
Israel had seen.
Yeah, he has kind of aredemption arc, but it comes to
a point where God is holding acouncil meeting and it says that
a spirit gives him an idea ofhow to make Ahab, a father.

Speaker 1 (50:56):
Hold on, let's pose this to Senor Holland.
We need to read this one,because Holland needs to accept
the full weight of this reality.
Is it 1 Kings 22?

Speaker 3 (51:08):
Yes.
What verses Might be 19.

Speaker 1 (51:10):
Okay, here it is.
And the messenger who went tosummon Micaiah, micaiah.

Speaker 2 (51:15):
Yeah, I love this chapter.

Speaker 1 (51:16):
Alright, behold the words of the prophets.
Hold on, is that right?
Which verse?

Speaker 3 (51:23):
Okay, there it is 21.

Speaker 1 (51:24):
So 19.
And Micaiah said Therefore,hear the word of the Lord.
I saw the Lord sitting on histhrone and all the hosts of
heaven standing beside him, onhis right hand and on his left.
Okay, hold on, let's pauseeverybody.
What is the host of heaven?
Is that a bunch of stars,angels, angels.
I'm going to go with angels,but I also call them Elohim.

Speaker 3 (51:46):
I'm okay with them being part of the Elohim, with
ultimately God ruling them asthe primary but wait, we have to
establish that angels aren'tonly messengers, but that they
also fulfill some kind ofcouncil advisory role.

Speaker 1 (51:55):
I think you would agree with that, because there's
rulers and principalities andauthorities sorry continue.
Here we go, and the Lord saidwho will entice Ahab that he may
go up and fall at Ramoth Gilead?
One said one thing and anothersaid another.
Okay, who is saying stuff?

Speaker 3 (52:18):
The spirits, the angels.

Speaker 1 (52:20):
Right Then verse 21.
Then a spirit came forward andstood before the Lord.
Does he have feet?

Speaker 3 (52:25):
No, If he stood, he would need something to stand on
?

Speaker 1 (52:28):
He may not.
That's just a symbolic,metaphorical reference.
He doesn't actually have feet.
He can also impregnate womenthat he finds attractive without
having a phallic symbol, allright.
So then the spirit came forwardand stood before the Lord,
saying I will entice him.
And the Lord said to him bywhat means?
So he's like challenging him.
He's like, okay, what do yougot?

(52:49):
And he said I will go out and Iwill be a lying spirit in the
mouth of all of his prophets.
And he said you are to enticehim and you shall succeed.
Go out and do so Now, behold.
Now, therefore behold.
The Lord has put a lying spiritin the mouth of all these, your
prophets.
The Lord has declared disasterfor you.
Okay, now did Micaiah get areal vision of the throne room

(53:13):
of heaven?
Sure, were there other spiritsthere, yes, angels.
And did they not put?

Speaker 2 (53:27):
What's the hard part about this one I'm just making?
Sure we're all in agreementhere, okay, they put a lying
spirit in the mouth of all theprophets to serve God's purposes
of judgment against Ahab forhis sin.
Yeah, okay, bing bang bong.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
Yeah.
So there you see clearly thedivine counsel at work.
Yeah, well, I agree with that,okay.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
He agrees.
You heard it here first.
No, he agrees, you heard ithere first.
No.
Here's what I agree with, to beclear that God, that there are
spiritual beings called angelsand demons, and the angels dwell
with God in heaven and servehim and worship him and do his
bidding on earth, which includeanything from sending a message

(54:08):
or appearing in a dream, orfighting another angel going
down to Sodom to preparejudgment, or delivering a lying
spirit to the mouths of theprophets, whatever.

Speaker 1 (54:26):
God says they do.
Who were the three guys thatwent down to visit Abraham?
Angel angel Jesus.
Okay, angel angel Jesus.
So these angels have bodies.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
They can, yeah, so.

Speaker 3 (54:40):
Just saying he was going to make them food, right?

Speaker 2 (54:43):
Yeah, angels can.
They can manifest themselvesclearly themselves, um, clearly
so.
But if you're saying that theyum can manifest themselves in a
physical body that has, you know, the reproductive organs and
necessities to impregnatesomeone, okay, um, it is just,

(55:04):
it's an odd claim to make, butjust saying it has happened once
, where we all agree.

Speaker 1 (55:09):
Why couldn't it happen again?
And Jesus is the betterembodiment of God Better
embodiment of God, he's thebetter.
Like you know, there's demonswho embody people, and then
Jesus is ultimately the better.
Same substance as God, one withGod, fully God.
Somehow that worked out.

Speaker 2 (55:31):
So wait, which view are you?
Are you open to both?
That demons manifested aphysical body and had physical
sex with women and got thempregnant?
I like the second one better.
Or they just stayed spiritualbeings with no physical body and
overshadowed them in some waythat impregnates them with
demons?

Speaker 1 (55:48):
I like that one better but it is possible that
it could have been both, becauseyou, you know the woman's like
Hmm, how did?
I don't even know how it workswith demon sex, but she, you
know, at some point she has toMichael.
Heiser no he doesn't describe.
He doesn't describe that, allright, so.
So here's where Heiser hastension with the demon's origin.

(56:16):
This is the part that Istruggle.
Demons' origin are fallenangels.
I don't think demons are onlyspirits of dead Nephilim.
That makes no sense to me.

Speaker 2 (56:27):
That's what he says.
They are.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
Yeah, I mean it's possible.
Spirits of dead Nephilim.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
That makes no sense to me.
That's what he says.
They are yeah, I mean, it'spossible Spirits of dead
Nephilim.
Okay, hold on.
So they were.
It was angels, not demons, thathad sex with women Fallen
angels.

Speaker 3 (56:42):
Well, sons of God is what it is.

Speaker 2 (56:44):
So he differentiates.
He says a fallen angel or sonof God is not a demon, that's
something else.
And then they make half-demon,half-human babies, and when they
die, their spirits are demons.

Speaker 3 (56:57):
Yeah, they make Nephilim, which is half sons of
God, half-human, and then,whenever they die, their spirit
then becomes.

Speaker 2 (57:04):
Alright.
So his claim is that demons arethe spirits of half-human
half-angels that rebelledagainst God.

Speaker 1 (57:20):
Yeah, okay, I think that's a bit of a stretch, but
I'm okay with going there.
I think how do you have all theangels falling, like?
I mean, that can't be unlessthere has to?
You have to do something withthe angel that falls right Like
that goes and has sex with the,or are you guys?

Speaker 2 (57:42):
Yeah, yeah Are you, I agree.
But are you guys saying thatsons of God can only mean some
kind of divine being?
Do y'all not see that it couldrefer to human rulers or even
just godly humans?

Speaker 3 (57:54):
sure is the contemporary interpretation, or
the traditional, about humanrulers on earth.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
Yes, yeah, like, what do y'all, are y'all like?

Speaker 1 (58:03):
I don't know, it could be either to learn okay,
okay, I'm a fan of it being both.
I mean, how many times was itlike?

Speaker 2 (58:09):
that's sort of the peacemakers, for they shall be
called sons of God, right.
That's obviously talking abouthumans who are like God in the
sense that they make peace likeGod makes peace Right.

Speaker 1 (58:18):
But clearly these sons of God weren't making peace
, they were making babies.

Speaker 2 (58:21):
Yeah, they were like God in another way.
So the question is if you canbe like God just by being godly,
then you can also be like Godby being a ruler.
You can be like God by being ajudge.
You can be like God, a son ofGod, in a lot of different ways,
right, but clearly these sonsof God were not being like God
in any way they were—well no,you don't know that they weren't

(58:44):
human rulers.

Speaker 3 (58:44):
They had power over the people around them.
Right yeah, they were ruling, Imean that might, over the
people around them right.
Yeah.
That might be the only way, theinterpretation would be that
they are like the rulers.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
They were like God because they were mighty men of
renown.
They were powerful, Obviously.
What do you do when you havepower?

Speaker 3 (58:56):
You have leadership, you have authority, okay, but
then how do we end up with thegiants?
Yeah, that's the problem,because that doesn't seem like
just.
You know, a king has a normalbaby, and we have to remember
too, back then the averageheight was what like 5'4 or
something, so we're not evenlike we're talking about very
small people.
And then you have these likebasically double the average

(59:16):
height warriors going aroundcausing havoc.

Speaker 1 (59:19):
It wasn't like you know what's that one guy, the
gargantuan dude that saidRipley's Believe it or Not Like
that guy had a disease and hecouldn't stop growing and then
died.
Gigantism yeah, gigantism, Ithink, and he died at 23.
These guys were, like, livedfor a long time, okay anyway.
So I feel like Heiser hassomething.

(59:39):
I feel like demons were, andmaybe what he's saying is the
demons went into the women toproduce for themselves human
bodies, because they needed ahost to make a body for them, I
don't know.
And then they that that spiritwent into um, because

(01:00:00):
essentially that happens withyahweh, yeah.
So yahweh puts it's not likeit's a.
The son of god is like he's anoffspring of god.
It is God in the flesh with God, when the Holy Spirit
overshadows Mary.
So maybe it's something likethat, and so then he becomes the
better, the more righteousanti-Nephilim?

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
Okay, but here's a difference in your theory.
Okay, is Jesus half spirit,half human?

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
No, he's 100% human, 100% spirit or 100% God.

Speaker 3 (01:00:32):
And that's a contradiction, right, that's a
paradox, but that's just kind ofyeah to accept it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
It's one of those things that like it's not like.
Jesus is some kind of he's nota different, he's still 100%
human, Whereas the idea, I think, of a Nephilim if it's a
demigod, it means it's halfhuman, half eternal being.
But that's not what Jesus is.
Jesus in the Holy Spirit, theconception of Jesus, he is fully

(01:01:03):
and truly human.
He's not less than or greaterthan.
In terms of his humanity, he isa full and true human while
also being fully God in theflesh.
Right.
That sounds different than um ahalf demon, half human.
I think it is very different,Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
But he's.
That's why he's better.
Right, he's okay.
You know, champ.
Okay, then Deuteronomy 32.
Isn't this where, um Godassigns out all of the nations?
Oh wait, deuteronomy 32?
.

Speaker 3 (01:01:33):
That's not Fall of Babel, it's Fall of Babel.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
That's another, because I think Is that in your
notes here?
I don't think so.
Let's go to Deuteronomy 32.
I think he lists out or wheredoes he list out all the nations
.

Speaker 3 (01:01:51):
Is that 32 is Song of Moses.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
I don't think it's that.
Okay, so Deuteronomy 32.

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
Let's see, let's see, okay what are we looking for in
Deuteronomy?

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
32 is where you have this kind of the Lord.
You have this kind of the Lordlooking to take over the world
again because the angels that hegave different pockets to rule
right, Verse 17,.

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
They sacrificed to demons that were no gods.
Is that what you're talkingabout?
To gods they had never known.
To new gods, no wait, verse 8.
Oh, verse 8?
.

Speaker 3 (01:02:52):
Yeah, when the Most High gave to the nations their
inheritance.
When he divided mankind, hefixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of thesons of God.

Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
Yeah, but the Lord's portion is his people, jacob,
his allotted heritage.
So I think this is part of liketheir punishment is, and this
is the part that I have to go.
You have to remind me of Heiser.
Is this their punishment?
That they get the people thatare scattered and then he takes
on Israel as his own?

Speaker 3 (01:03:21):
That sounds right, definitely him taking Israel as
his own.
And then it kind of goes backto the spiritual geographic
warfare of Israel's kind ofalways at war with its neighbors
who are serving other gods.

Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
Yeah, I'm that idea.
I'm not the idea of basicallysaying, um, there's some kind of
spiritual being over each andevery nation.
Is that what you're saying?

Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
Yeah, Um and uh, and that that is part of his
judgment against them and thenso, and it's part of the
judgment, of it's the angelicjudgment, and then it's also the
people's judgment, a combinedjudgment gotcha and then it

(01:04:08):
shows about how he adopts Israelout of the wilderness.
They become the apple of hiseye.
He loves them a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
Then what do you guys think it means?
They sacrificed to demons thatwere no gods, to gods they had
never known, to new gods thathad come recently, whom your
fathers had never dreaded Verse17.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
Verse 17.

Speaker 2 (01:04:33):
Verse 17.
I feel like Heiser wouldprobably have something to say
about that, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:38):
I didn't bring the whole book with me.

Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
Yeah, yeah, right, right, right.

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
Yeah, so Jeshurun is like an ox, right?
I don't know that's the namethat he's been given, is that
right?
But Jeshuan grew fat and kickedand you grew fat, stout and
sleek.
Then he forsook God, who madehim and scoffed the rock of
salvation that could be.
Israel's rebellion against herfather stands in stark contrast

(01:05:05):
to God's gracious care.

Speaker 3 (01:05:08):
I mean, we're talking about idolatry, right yeah, and
I think that maybe you to God'sgracious care.
I mean, we're talking aboutidolatry, right?
Yeah, yeah, and I think thatmaybe you know, if we establish
that there are other spirits,angels, whatever you want to
call them, that have been givendomain over these different
areas, and then those people arechoosing to worship these false
gods instead of the one true,God, and that's why it's like a
real adultery right.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
You are whoring as the common after other gods who
rebelled against God, and that'sexactly what they're hoping for
.

Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
And so the Great Commission would be go and
dethrone all the demons aroundthe world by making these
Christian nations who worshipthe one true God yes.

Speaker 1 (01:05:49):
Is that right?
Yeah, I don't know aboutChristian nations, but Every
nation has a God, it sounds like.
Okay, yeah, that is true.
Now you're getting me on board.

Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
Now we're talking about.

Speaker 1 (01:06:04):
So we've got to dethrone the demon that is in
charge of their life, becausethere's a government, there is a
church and then there is afamily, and so you're trying to
dethrone the government withwhoever is behind.
It is dethroned with their evillaws.
They, because they have.

(01:06:25):
They are not just like Psalm82,.
These angels are not havingrighteous laws and they're
harming the fatherless.
They're not taking care ofwidows Huh, psalm 82.
And now your job is to dethronethem by the power of the gospel
, to have Holy Spirit, spiritualwarfare to win over the nations

(01:06:50):
.

Speaker 2 (01:06:50):
Until every nation worships Christ.

Speaker 1 (01:06:53):
Every tongue, every nation, every tongue will
confess Sorry.
Every knee will bow.
Every tongue will confess thatJesus is Lord.

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
I'm for that.
I think that you know in Danielit was what was the name of the
demon?

Speaker 1 (01:07:08):
Not Beelzebub.
Prince of Persia.
Prince of Persia.
Prince of Persia.
Yeah, I don't know.
Did he have an actual name?
Maybe not, maybe it didn't namehim, let me see.
But yeah, that's who Daniel hadto fight, right?
Well, daniel didn't fight him.
I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:07:22):
Michael.
Michael fought him.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the idea thatit named it ties a specific um
demon to a particular nation.
I think I'm like, yeah, that'sthat's what you see in daniel um
.
It is interesting, though, thatit's like, okay.

(01:07:44):
So here's what's cool.
If there is, in my opinion, ifthere is a fixed number of
angels and demons that theydon't reproduce which I know you
guys maybe aren't on board withthat.
Maybe you think they're stillreproducing demon babies to this
day.

Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
No, I don't think they're doing that today.

Speaker 2 (01:08:02):
Because if there is a fixed number, the number of
humans increases instantly.

Speaker 1 (01:08:07):
Maybe there needs to be some demon babies.

Speaker 2 (01:08:09):
And so what that means, and the number of
Christians continues to increase.

Speaker 1 (01:08:13):
What that means is that but the number of
non-believers also increases.

Speaker 2 (01:08:18):
But still there's only so many demons to go around
.
So when there's only a millionpeople, the demons are like we
got this Way more powerful.
Now there's eight million,they're like okay, we got to be
organized now.

Speaker 1 (01:08:32):
That's why you know, whenever you say like you know,
the devil made me do it.
Nah, probably not.
Devil's in India right now.
Right now, he is wrecking shopon some plums over there.

Speaker 2 (01:08:41):
He's got one guy over the whole southwest region of
the United States.

Speaker 1 (01:08:50):
It's like when your sales area is way too big for
you to cover and you're justinundated with phone calls and
you're just struggling to keepup.
That's how the demons are.

Speaker 2 (01:08:58):
That's funny.
No, I mean I do think you getthat idea in Scripture.
There are rulers,principalities, and they can
only cover so much groundbecause humans keep multiplying,
christians keep makingdisciples, and so they got to
kind of divide their workloadefficiently and they're losing
and the church is growing.
It's pretty great, and one daywe will dethrone every demon,

(01:09:20):
claim every nation for JesusChrist, and then the Lord will
return, amen.
Now we're talking abouteschatology.

Speaker 1 (01:09:27):
Hey, listen, I think you're on board with pretty much
everything that we've said.
I wouldn't go that far.
I pretty much think you're abig fan of Michael Heiser now.

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
Hey look, I'm open to the idea that I can be wrong
about stuff.
Obviously I've been wrong abouta lot of things.
Changed my mind on theologicalthings with good, persuasive
arguments from Scripture.

Speaker 1 (01:09:56):
So maybe I'm wrong about the demons impregregnating
women thing.
But man, that's a tough one.
I'm just like, hey, if it'sweird, if god, you know, god
likes to shove it in the satan'sface with like better things of
his evil.

Speaker 3 (01:10:03):
This so one thing that he calls out is that
there's a lot of weird things inthe bible and I think that
modern you know, christianity,modern churches tend to kind of
gloss over them or, like youknow, kind of push them aside,
like the talking donkey, forexample, or the sons of God
coming down and marrying sons ofwomen.
But he says that if it's weird,it's important, like it's in

(01:10:26):
the Bible, for a reason you knowand it may be cleared.
I agree with that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
I don't like modern interpretations of the Bible.
I'm like as anti-modern as theycome.

Speaker 1 (01:10:38):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
But something being weird doesn't mean I have a
problem with it, something beingthat seems to go against other
scriptural teachings.
That's what I mean when I say,you know, it's hard for me to
believe.
It's not that it goes againstmy modern sensibilities.
It's like I see nowhere else inscripture where you get the
idea that angels can reproducewith humans.

(01:10:59):
On the contrary, you get theopposite idea from Luke 20,
jesus saying we'll be like theangels.
I think that means we're notgoing to be able to reproduce
anymore in heaven because angelsdon't reproduce.
That's my pushback.
It's not like oh, I don't thinkthat Jonah could have lived in
a whale, because that goesagainst my modern sensibilities.
I don't think a donkey reallytalked, because it goes against

(01:11:22):
my modern sensibility.
I believe all that stuff.
If it's in the Bible, I'm likesweet God can do it every once.
But if it seems to go againstother scriptural teachings,
obviously then I'm like yeah,that's right.

Speaker 1 (01:11:34):
I need some persuading, yeah, so I feel like
, all right, now that we have,we're going to have, this is the
pre Holland of he has not goingto revisit this in six months
or something.

Speaker 2 (01:11:44):
That's right.
After you read it, see if nowI'm like guys.
See if now I'm like guys.
Yes, I believe in demon babiesand mermaids.

Speaker 1 (01:11:53):
Bigfoot, it's all real.
Oh man, all right, hey, listen.
Centaurs, yeah, everything inthe Lion, the Witch and the Orcs
it's all real, guys.
All right, hey guys.
Thanks so much for watching.
If you have any more questions,we would love to take those on.
We've spent a good amount oftime talking about this.

Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
We lost track of time .

Speaker 1 (01:12:18):
Yeah, we really did, but it was awesome.
I really enjoyed it.
Grant, thanks for coming on.
We're going to have to have youback for maybe a part two of
this, because it feels like wedidn't really do it justice.
You're the man, grant, thanksfor having me yeah.
Yeah, All right.
So if you have any questions,you can just text us at
737-231-0605.
We'll get back to you and we'lltalk about it next week.
We'll see you again as wecontinue to push back darkness.

(01:12:39):
And have an awesome week ofworship.