October 3, 2025 • 31 mins
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369: A simple question about “priests before the Law” opens a door into one of Scripture’s most fascinating arcs. We trace the roles of prophet, priest, and king before Sinai, explore Jethro’s surprising faithfulness, and sit with the mystery of Melchizedek—king of Salem, priest of God Most High—who foreshadows Jesus as our eternal priest‑king. Along the way, we show why tithing, sacrifice, prayer, and Sabbath rhythms didn’t start with Moses; they were clarified by the Law and fulfilled in Christ.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
And welcome back to Pastor Plex podcast.
I'm your host, Pastor Plik,along with none other than
Pastor Holland.
Greg, how are we doing, Holland?
Doing great.
SPEAKER_02 (00:11):
Thanks, Chris.
SPEAKER_00 (00:12):
All right, we got a couple questions from uh the fan
base, and we want to jump rightinto those.
Uh, first one comes from alistener.
What were the roles of priestsmentioned in the Bible prior to
the law?
Like Melchizedek and Jethro, andeven Balaam.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (00:32):
Nice.
Good question.
Yeah, this is an intensequestion because clearly there
also you could say like uhAbraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in a
sense, were uh had a priestlytype role even in their
families, yeah, right before thelaw.
SPEAKER_00 (00:45):
Yeah, I I think, in fact, all the way down to Moses,
honestly, is so so what do wehave to say?
Let's just take a look atMelchizedek for a second and
Jethro.
Like uh when I think Jethro,remember, he's the priest of
Midian, uh, who clearlyworshipped uh Yahweh, he
sacrifices to him.
(01:06):
Uh, I think in one point, Exodus18, after you know, they all the
Israelites, two million of themshow up.
Jethro shows up with a fam.
And I mean, imagine beingJethro.
You've you've given yourdaughter to Moses, who is now
80.
And he goes, he goes back topick up a couple people from
(01:30):
Egypt, and he prom brings backtwo million of them, and he's
about to leave them into thepromised land.
I mean, and that's a wildthought.
I mean, just uh just as a man, ahuman being, that's crazy, but
he's also a priest.
Right.
What and what do you think hisrole was back then?
SPEAKER_02 (01:47):
So it's a role of spiritual leadership, prophet,
priest, and king are the threemain offices, the three main
official leadership um positionsthat mediated between God and
people.
And so prophets spoke to peopleon behalf of God, primarily.
(02:08):
Um, priests uh spoke to God onbehalf of people, right?
Um, and then kings ruled overthe people under God.
And so you have um reallygovernance as a focus of kings,
um, communicating a message fromGod for prophets and
communicating the prayers of thepeople and the needs of the
(02:29):
people and the sins of thepeople to God from a priest.
And so that was that's evenbefore the law, um, you have the
importance of a spiritual leaderwho goes to God on behalf of his
people.
That's what I would say a priestis.
SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
Yeah, so so what about these specific priests?
Uh here's what's sort of wildwhen I think about um uh
specifically Jethro.
Okay.
He is the descendant of Abrahamthrough Keturah.
Remember his like I don't know,you may not know this.
Like, after Sarah dies, he getsremarried, and this woman gives
(03:03):
him a bunch of kids.
Right.
Like she was not barren, and hewas an old man, and you know,
Midian is in that that mix, andhe's a priest of Midian, so must
be in that the bloodline of uhAbraham.
So it's kind of an interestingreality that remember, all
nations will be blessed throughAbraham, and so this is kind of
(03:24):
convening back together Mosesand and and you know the thing
about Moses is he was althoughhe was an Israelite, he spent
most or well, he spent thisfirst 40 years as an Egyptian,
his next 40 years as aMidianite, and then his final 40
years as an Israelite, really isthe best way to see that.
(03:45):
Yeah, and so when I when I lookat this, I look at Jethro, who
is a priest, kind of uh likesaying, Yes, your God is the one
true God.
We worship this same God who hasyou know spoken to him through
obviously Mount Sinai.
Remember they they call it themountain of God, yeah, and
(04:05):
that's where Jethro was.
So he had some sort ofinteraction with God on Mount
Sinai.
Again, this is where we don'tknow enough, there is enough
historical evidence, but he iswhat I really see what Moses
does is he unites threedifferent types of people:
Egyptian, Midian, and Israelite,all under one God.
And then he brings about theMosaic covenant of like this is
(04:28):
how you're to live under God'slaw for relationship with him.
Yeah.
And maybe that's a little bittoo much to kind of put in that
from a Jethro standpoint only,because we don't know enough
about him.
What we do know is that heministered to the people as an
intermediary intermediary onbehalf of the medium people
before Almighty God.
SPEAKER_02 (04:45):
Yeah, yeah.
Priest taking going to God onbehalf of the people.
You see, you have sacrificesbefore the law.
Yep.
Remember uh Cain and Abel?
Yeah, you have a sacrifice righthere in Exodus 18.
Yeah, you have sacrifices beforethe law, you have prayer before
the law, you have even Sabbathobservance.
Remember um gathering the foodin the wilderness, the manna?
You didn't, you know, you reston the seventh day.
(05:06):
Right.
So you have a lot of thesethings that actually were
spiritual principles andpractices before they were
codified in the law.
And the same is true of, youknow, the role of the priest, a
spiritual leader who goes to Godon behalf of his people.
That's what God's saying.
SPEAKER_00 (05:19):
I love that.
Okay, so what about Melchizedek?
Because I think Melchizedek isone of he there's only two
Melchizedek comes up twice inthe Old Testament.
He comes up in Genesis, is it22?
No, Genesis.
No, it's more like 14 or 15.
Okay, Genesis 14.
Genesis 14, comes up, Genesis14, then he comes up in Psalm
(05:40):
110, and then he shows up inHebrews.
He's got this Old Testamentrandom story where uh he is just
a priest, he bring um he's ahigh priest of God, and then
he's also the king of Salem, andAbraham of all things offers
(06:01):
tithes to him of all things.
Yes, you have tithing before thelaw, also.
You have tithing before the law.
It's it's a it's a wild thing.
And so with Melchizedek, heremains mysterious, I think on
purpose for God's purposes.
He has no beginning, no end, iswhat Hebrews says.
And then Psalm 110 gives us thiswild I Psalm 110 is so crazy.
(06:25):
And the reason why I say it's socrazy is because you would never
think this was written beforeJesus, like hundreds of years,
maybe even a thousand years uhbefore Jesus shows up.
Sit at my right hand until Imake your enemies your
(06:47):
footstool.
The Lord sends forth from Zionyour mighty scepter, rule in the
midst of your enemies.
Your people will offerthemselves freely on the day of
your power in holy garments,from the womb of the morning,
the dew of your youth will beyours.
The Lord has sworn and will notchange his mind, you are a
priest forever after the orderof Melchizedek.
(07:10):
Which like he's only mentionedone time in Genesis 14.
How in the world are yousupposed to understand that in
Psalm 110?
This is David, by the power ofthe spirit, is prophesying a
song, which there was no way hecould understand what he was
saying.
Like, I just don't think therewas any way.
SPEAKER_02 (07:28):
All right, here's here's the thing the Lord says
to my Lord.
So the Lord, Yahweh, says to myLord, some ruler over David.
Okay.
But who was the ruler overDavid?
God.
Yeah, so there was no humanruler over David at that time.
Right.
But David did know that Godpromised a future king from the
(07:50):
line of David who would reignforever.
And so if you're David, I Ithink you could logically reason
that this king is going tosomehow be a divine king, a king
who's going to reign forever.
And if he's a divine king, then,you know, I, you know, who knows
how much David knew.
But you go, maybe he knew thathe, you know, existed.
(08:12):
Maybe David understood a littlebit more about the Trinity than
we realize.
Don't know.
Right.
But he he has this understandingthat um this uh future
descendant of his will be aneternal king somehow.
And he's saying here he's alsogoing to be a priest.
And so who is the only otherpriest king that we know of in
(08:33):
the Old Testament, Melchizedek?
He was a priest of the most highGod, and he was the king of
Salem.
And so the idea of the Messiahcoming from David, who would be
a priest king, who would notonly govern the people, but uh
mediate between the people andGod.
And the only other person youhave like that in the Bible is
Melchizedek.
(08:53):
And so it's a it's it's a coolconnection.
SPEAKER_00 (08:56):
Yeah, and Jesus actually uh quotes Psalm 110.
Uh where was it, Matthew 22?
Uh he's like after the Phariseesask him question after question
after question, he then's like,I got a question for you.
What do you think about theMessiah?
Whose son, like, whose son ishe?
And they replied, Son of David.
Then he quotes Psalm 110.
(09:17):
So, how is it that David,speaking by the Spirit, calls
him Lord?
Yeah, which like you don't callyour son Lord unless kind of
what you said.
Yeah.
It's it's it that Psalm 110 tome is if there's any psalm to
investigate and just pour over.
Yeah, it's so cool.
SPEAKER_02 (09:33):
It is like the coolest psalm.
There's so much in there.
And but yeah, Melchizedekbecomes the way of understanding
the idea of a priest king thatwould come from David and rule
forever.
And that's Jesus.
SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:47):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (09:48):
Let's that's that's awesome.
Uh, but we're gonna shift gearsto the next question.
Okay.
All right, uh, it says this fromone of our uh fearless
listeners.
Thank you so much for thisquestion, by the way.
I saw a Facebook post wheresomeone cherry-picked
Thessalonians 2, 14 and 15.
If you can look that up.
Yeah, let's look it up tojustify anti-Semitism.
I looked up the full passage andsaw that they were twisting it
(10:10):
to spread hate.
My first thought was to unfriendthem, or maybe post the full
context to expose theirmanipulation, but I doubt it
would change their hearts.
I was curious to hear yourthoughts on this one.
SPEAKER_02 (10:21):
All right, here it is.
1 Thessalonians 2, 14 and 15.
For you, brothers, becameimitators of the churches of God
and Christ Jesus that are inJudea.
For you suffered the same thingsfrom your own countrymen as they
did from the Jews, who killedboth the Lord Jesus and the
prophets, and drove us out, anddispleased God, and oppose all
(10:45):
mankind.
unknown (10:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (10:47):
Keep going.
Yeah, keep going because theverse 16 is good, yeah.
By hindering us from speaking tothe Gentiles that they might be
saved, so as always to fill upthe measure of their sins, but
wrath has come upon them atlast.
SPEAKER_00 (10:58):
Okay.
So this is the I think whatthey're saying, or the person
that took this verse, I think Iwould say out of context, is
that that therefore all Jews arethe enemy.
Like they are the ones foreverand ever and ever, their kids
kind of take up this mantle ofpreventing, you know, driving
Jesus out, drove us out, anddispleased God and oppose all
(11:20):
mankind.
I think there that's problematicbecause of course we know there
are Jews that have been saved.
There are Jews that didn'thinder Paul.
What's that?
Yeah, like Paul.
Yeah, yeah.
Saul who became Paul, the guythat wrote the letter was a Jew.
So clearly that can't justify acultural hatred of um of someone
an anti-Semite, for, forexample.
(11:41):
But um, and I think alsoremember, you this gets back
into an anthropologicalstatement that we find that
shifts in the book of Ezekiel.
You are only to die for your ownsins.
You don't, it isn't like yoursins aren't put upon you to the
fourth generation that inEzekiel each one dies for his
(12:03):
own sins.
We sort of see that for hiswriting.
Whereas I still think there'sgonna be blessing for a thousand
generations for God's people,but it is everyone must come
before God and take on uh andeither receive Jesus'
forgiveness or um experience thewrath of God by rejecting him.
And that ultimately is um is isthose I don't not not that
(12:29):
you're against our battle, isn'tagainst flesh and blood, right?
This is uh Ephesians 6, butagainst the spiritual forces of
darkness.
And these particular Jews atthis particular time were um
effectively against Jesus andagainst his message and were
enemies of God.
And the answer wasn't to killthem, the answer was to pray for
(12:51):
them and to try to win themover.
Well, and and maybe that's thepart where even if they are your
enemy, like whoever is yourenemy, your answer isn't, oh,
let's go blow them away.
The answer is to pray for themand and pursue them in joy and
peace.
SPEAKER_02 (13:05):
Yeah, there's a lot there.
I I think even so whatcomplicates it is when you say
Jew, right, you could that couldrefer to someone's ethnicity,
right?
It could refer to someone'sreligion, right?
It could refer to someone'snationality or culture.
So if they live in Judea, thenyou're a Jew, right?
(13:27):
Because that's you know, you'refrom Judea.
Right.
Um, but a lot of the times thosethings are combined together.
Um, but so Paul would be anexample of someone who, you
know, ethnically is a Jew, butreligiously is not a Jew.
Right.
He's a Christian.
Um and what it seems like whathe's talking about here is those
(13:50):
who were not just ethnicallyJewish, but those who were
religiously Jewish.
And the Jewish religion on thewhole rejects Jesus Christ.
It 100% rejects Jesus Christ.
Yeah.
Obviously.
Um and so, and the Jewish peoplein that time that rejected Jesus
Christ were also persecuting theChristians.
(14:11):
Right.
And so that's what he's talkingabout.
Um, he's saying, You inThessalonica, you're suffering
from Thessalonians, you know,who are persecuting you, but
you're following the example ofum, you know, the church is in
Judea, right?
Who they were being persecutedby the Jews, just like they were
being persecuted by the Jews,you're being persecuted by the
(14:31):
Thessalonians, and you'reremaining faithful, just like
the church in Judea remainedfaithful.
So he's making a connectionthere.
What that doesn't mean iseveryone who's ethnically Jewish
um is needs to be purged.
Yeah, is is an enemy.
Right.
But those who are religiouslyJewish, Paul even Paul says
Romans 11, 28, as regards thegospel, they are enemies for
(14:54):
your sake.
Right.
So they're enemies of thegospel.
And he says, for your sake,because because it was because
of the Jews rejecting the gospelthat it goes out to the
Gentiles.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (15:03):
If all the Jews were like, We're on board, Jesus,
you're the king.
SPEAKER_02 (15:07):
But they rejected it, and the gospel goes out to
the Gentiles, and so theGentiles are benefiting from the
Jews rejecting it.
So they're enemies of the faith.
So from a um religiousstandpoint, how do you treat
enemies of the faith?
And relationally, you pray forthem, you share the gospel with
them, you bless them.
You bless them.
Um that doesn't mean that you uhaffirm like uh lies or affirm
(15:34):
that, you know, oh, theirreligion.
Like I read something the theother day, it was like the
ligonier state of theologysurvey.
Have you seen those?
No.
Ask a bunch of questions toAmericans, and then you can
filter it for evangelicals.
Right.
And it was like 40, I think thenumber was 47% of evangelicals
in America think that Godaccepts the worship of uh Jews
(15:58):
and Muslims along withChristians.
God accepts all worship.
And so there is this mindset oflike, oh, the Jews are um
religiously, the Jewish religionis like, oh, they're they're
good people who are, you know,they're gonna go to heaven.
They don't understand.
And same with Muslims, it's likeyou have to understand these are
religions that explicitly rejectJesus Christ and desperately
(16:20):
need the gospel.
And, you know, there's yeah,it's it's not just like, oh,
they have a faith in God, sothey're saved.
No, they reject Jesus, who isthe way, the truth, and the
life.
SPEAKER_00 (16:30):
And nobody gets to the Father except through him.
Yeah.
And I think that like you canstill have a respect for Israel,
but understand that they are notGod's people because they've
rejected God's son.
SPEAKER_02 (16:46):
You mean um now, see, even when you say Israel,
do you mean uh those who areethnically connected to or are
you talking about the modernnation?
SPEAKER_00 (16:56):
I was saying modern day Israel.
I think sometimes we want tolike you can live in the nation
of Israel, I can go move toIsrael, you know.
And you could actually become orcan't I?
I don't even know.
Well, let's say if you have aJewish background, you can go
live there and become a city,they'll pay you.
Um it's a pretty good deal.
But do you have to have a Jewishbackground to move there?
No, but like you get there, theyhave a thing like it's uh, you
know, they're calling the dealhome or something.
(17:17):
Yeah.
Uh anyway, uh So it's important.
SPEAKER_02 (17:20):
I guess the point of all that is to distinguish what
do you mean by Israel, what doyou mean by Jew?
Um, and uh should you hate youknow, Jewish people of the
Jewish religion or the Jewishethnicity?
No.
You there's a valid category ofenemy of the gospel and that
they reject Jesus, but theresponse to that should be to
(17:42):
pray that they might be saved.
That's what Paul said.
Right.
He said, They're my kinsmenaccording to the flesh.
I will think they might be savedand I be accursed, which it
can't be happen, can't happen.
So he had this desire that theywould be saved and uh would say
they are enemies of the gospel,but I I still want them to be
saved.
Yeah.
Um and Paul was a Jew who gotsaved.
(18:03):
So but then he he no longeridentifies as a Jew in terms of
uh, you know, when he explainswho he is, he says, I'm an
apostle of Jesus Christ, aservant of Jesus Christ, right?
SPEAKER_00 (18:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:14):
So Okay.
Um, but are they wanting to knowlike what should they do?
Should they comment back?
SPEAKER_00 (18:20):
Yeah, yeah.
I think they're saying, like, Ifeel like they're this.
SPEAKER_02 (18:26):
And there's what do you think about that?
I'm like, there's a time toengage online, and what they're
saying, there's a time where youand I have both engaged online.
SPEAKER_00 (18:34):
We have in a lot in sort of some Facebook battles.
And sometimes I think, honestly,I think it's good uh to be a
person that puts truth outthere, especially in a world
that when people live in echochambers and they only hear
their own perspective echoedback to them, and you go,
(18:55):
actually, that's not okay.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:58):
And I I've engaged quite a bit on things online,
but there's also like I'vepassed over way more things than
I've engaged on.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You gotta, you gotta choosewhat's gonna be fruitful and if
it's very important.
SPEAKER_00 (19:09):
Sometimes I look at it and I'm like, do I want if I
just throw like a one shot outthere and I don't have time to
back it up with like morethings, sometimes I feel like
and I don't, or if I don't, Ican only don't have time to have
right an appropriate responsethat's yeah, compassionate yet
at the same time truthful, andall the things I go, I don't
have time for that.
Yeah.
Um pray about it.
Yeah, pray about it.
Maybe it's the right thing,maybe it's not.
(19:29):
Pray about it.
Uh now, Paul does call himself aJew uh whenever he was uh
witnessing.
Remember, he said uh he wasaddressing uh in Acts 22.
Is this Agrippa?
Where he goes, uh, I'm a Jewfrom Tarsus and Silesia, citizen
of no obscure city.
I beg you, permit me to speak tothe people.
Again, yeah, look look what he'ssaying, though.
SPEAKER_02 (19:50):
He's not saying uh his religion.
He's saying, This is where I'mfrom.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
This is where I I lived.
Um so he's not saying I'm onelike he wouldn't include himself
in the category of the Jews interms of religion.
Obviously, he's a Christian, butin terms of his nationality,
yeah.
He was a Roman citizen, he was aRoman and he was a Jew in terms
(20:12):
of where he lived.
SPEAKER_00 (20:13):
Yeah, and that was actually back in Jerusalem,
where he goes, Hey, I'm a Jew.
Yeah.
Uh and he's like, he was like, Iwill use whatever defense I can,
uh-huh.
Uh, but I'm gonna go, and thenhe starts sharing the gospel.
And then we the thing that waswild to me in that story, it's
when Paul turns it from, hey,this the salvation is offered to
(20:35):
the Jews to salvation is nowoffered to the Gentiles that
everyone wanted to kill him.
Like, that's the part I don'tunderstand.
Like, I don't, and maybe it'slike yeah, it's wild to me that
that would be the thing thatbroke everything.
Not that Jesus died on thecross, rose from the dead, he's
the Messiah, the one you've beenwaiting for, but that now
Gentiles everywhere areworshiping him like that.
They all picked up rocks tostone him.
(20:55):
Yeah.
And that might be it, that's anaside.
Okay, uh, let's go on to uh lastquestion before we jet out of
here.
Uh it says, I'm reading 2 Samuelnow.
In 1 Samuel 15, God rejects Saulas king because Saul did not
kill all of the Amalekites andall of their livestock.
Saul was to leave none alive.
Saul didn't do as the Lordcommanded.
(21:16):
Why didn't God remove Saul fromthe throne at that time?
God allowed Saul to remain kingand even allowed Saul to try to
kill God's newly anointed David.
Was it to teach David something?
Was it to let Israel sufferbecause they rejected God as
their king?
David had two opportunities totake Saul's life, but David
wouldn't do it.
He wouldn't raise against theLord, raise his hand against the
(21:37):
Lord's anointing.
Yeah.
Was this God's way of lettingGod grow up and teaching David
humility?
Great question.
Way to go reading the Bible,first of all.
Yeah.
Love that.
You are reading the Bibleintensely.
SPEAKER_02 (21:50):
Yeah.
I really appreciate that.
And yeah, the two questions ofwhat uh what was it?
Is this uh why did he let whydid why didn't God remove Saul
right away?
No, but the last at the end, wasit to teach David something?
Yeah.
Was it to let Israel sufferbecause they had rejected God as
their king?
I think it's yes to both ofthose.
I think God is always doing alot of things with one thing,
(22:11):
you know?
And so, yeah, they reject,they're like, no, we want a king
like the other nations.
And so I think part of it is Godgoing, all right, here's the
problem with kings.
Um and then the other part is,okay, well, we know that um the
furnace of affliction is wheremen are made.
And so uh, if David's gonna bethe king that God wanted him to
(22:34):
be, he's got to go through theaffliction for him to be ready.
And so it's like a double,double whammy.
He gets to kind of let Israelsee the foolishness that they
had kind of given into inwanting Saul in the first place,
right?
And and then also use that toprepare David for his reign as
king.
Yeah.
So I think it's both.
SPEAKER_00 (22:52):
I mean, and you really see, I mean, he's always
called a man after God's ownheart, uh, all throughout um his
time of running away from Saul.
Yeah.
Even when he goes to thePhilistines and tries to hang
out in Gath, uh, and even whenhe murders Uriah because he
wanted his wife, got hisrepentance, his heart toward
(23:13):
God, even though he does dumbthings a lot, uh, he is a man
that God loved and he wanted thebest ultimately for Israel, even
though he made poor decisions.
Um, which is comforting in manyways, because you're like, oh, I
guess I'm not that lost of ahope.
SPEAKER_02 (23:31):
Yeah.
Um, yeah, I that that makessense to me.
I think I think definitely Godwas doing both of those things,
and you see what you know, whatit required of David, like the
example when he um could havetaken his life but didn't.
Yeah.
You know, those are testingmoments, testing a man's heart
um to see if he's the the kindof man you want to be a king,
(23:54):
you know.
Right.
And God already knows,obviously, but even though God
knows, he tests us, right?
So those are tests for Davidthat only came about because of
the kind of the the poor kind ofking that Saul was, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (24:09):
Yes.
Okay, here's another questionthat just came in.
We in our we as you know, wealso do another path podcast
called A Chapter Day.
SPEAKER_02 (24:18):
That's right.
Uh keeps the devil away.
SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
It does.
And I got this uh this onequestion says, okay, judge or
sorry, Matthew 7.
This passage is saying that I'mtechnically allowed to judge as
long as I've as I've confessed,addressed, repented for my own
sin.
Then I can judge others,deciding whether I should feel
convicted or not.
(24:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (24:41):
Yes.
You should judge others uh withright judgment.
And how what's the best way todo that, you think?
I think that's the part wherewell, yeah, that's what the
passage says.
Take the log out of your owneye, yep, so that you can see
clearly to take the speck out ofyour brother's eye.
So yeah, kind of make sureyou're in a place of um uh
you're not looking, you're notcoming with uh haughty eyes.
(25:04):
We read in Proverbs this morningin the men's group about having
haughty eyes, um, a proud orarrogant spirit, that you're not
coming into it like that way.
The um judgment, we often thinkof judgment very negatively as
in like, oh, you're you're justsaying something mean about
someone or you're picking onthem or you're looking down on
them.
But judgment, just what the wordmeans is like you're discerning
(25:27):
something, you're making a moralevaluation.
So that's obviously an importantpart of the Christian life in
community, is that you makemoral evaluations about your own
self and about the communitythat you're a part of.
Yeah.
And to do that with haughty eyesand arrogance is very unhealthy.
But to do it with humility andgrace and love is a good thing.
SPEAKER_00 (25:45):
Yeah.
Remember, and the the reason whypeople I think take this verse,
I don't want to say out ofcontext, but say, judge not that
you be not judged.
In other words, and then heexplains it, for with a judgment
you pronounce, you will bejudged, and with the measure you
use, it will be measured to you.
Yeah.
So if you're going around uhjudging people for their
(26:06):
conduct, are you doing the samething, perhaps in a different
way, and you're blind to it.
So if you usually, and this iswhy I always say to people, like
if you notice arrogance insomeone, you're probably not
liking the very thing that's inyou that you see in them.
And so you're like, man, thatguy's so arrogant.
And then you don't realize yourarrogance may not be external,
(26:30):
right?
You're you're sharing it witheveryone how how great you are,
but it's internal, where you'rejust kind of walking around
going, like, suckers, I'm waybetter than you.
And I think that's where Jesussays, like, the one who can
judge the heart is ultimatelygoing to be the one that that
sees that.
And then what's cool is like,hey, take the log out of your
own eye, see your own darkness,and start there.
(26:51):
Like, hey, I've got this issuetoo.
I just wanted you to know that Ilove you enough to help you take
the log out of your own eye orthe speck out of your eye.
But then, verse six, do not givedogs what is holy and do not
throw your pearls before pigslest they trample them underfoot
and turn to attack you.
In other words, sometimes youmight have the right truth and
it's the wrong time because thatperson isn't ready for it, and
(27:12):
they turn on you and attack you,and that could be um a negative
consequence of you genuinelytrying to help somebody with
wisdom.
SPEAKER_02 (27:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh 1 Corinthians 5, you know,the guy who's sleeping with his
mother-in-law.
SPEAKER_00 (27:27):
Yeah, or dad's wife, yeah.
Yeah.
So, like, so his original mom isno longer the picture.
His dad remarried and he'ssleeping with her.
Yes.
Okay.
I always thought it wasmother-in-law.
No, so yeah, father's wife iswhat is is Yeah, father's wife.
But but it, you know, it couldbe his is now his mother-in-law.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:47):
Okay.
Well, on that passage, whenPaul's saying, um, hey, you need
to kick him out of the church ifyou won't repent.
Right.
You know, um, because a littleleaven leavens the whole lump.
And um don't even associatewith, don't even eat with such a
one, he says.
And then he's he clarifies, hesays, I don't mean to not
associate with the sexuallyimmoral in the world.
(28:09):
You'd have to go out of theworld.
So, like, of course, you shouldbe, you know, doing evangelism
and building friendships andrelationships with people who
are sexually immoral that arenot Christians.
But if someone claims to be aChristian and lives that way,
then you need to um uh kick themout of the church, you know, if
they're not gonna repent.
And what he says at the end ofthat is for what have I to do
(28:30):
with judging outsiders, right?
This I'm not talking aboutpeople outside the church, I'm
talking about inside of thechurch.
He says, Is it not those insidethe church whom you are to
judge?
Right.
Literally says that you aresupposed to judge those inside
of the church, meaning you oughtto make moral evaluations.
Yep.
Does the way someone lives lineup, line up with the faith that
(28:51):
they profess?
If not, then yeah, of course yougot to address that with love.
Galatians 6, you know, ifanyone's in sin, you who are
spiritual should go to them in aspirit of gentleness and correct
them.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
I think for us as a church, what we decided on this
was those who we affirm theirsalvation through their
membership, we we say, and youwant us to judge you.
And that's kind of when youbecome a member of our church,
you're saying, please look at mylife and speak into it.
Uh and so, like, let's say ifyou're just kicking the tires,
but you don't really know thatyou're not a Christian, I always
(29:25):
have to unconvert people beforewe convert them.
Like you really don't loveJesus.
And that's okay.
Like, I would love to share withyou who Jesus is, but let's not
pretend that you're a Christian,but you don't, you know, you you
worship me with your lips, butyou don't do what I say, uh, is
what a lot of people end updoing.
And I think right here is agreat example of like, what are
you to do with someone who is aa member of the body of Christ?
(29:48):
You want them to feel the weightof their sin that separates them
from God because uh if we justkind of go like, oh, it's okay,
you know, Jesus forgives you,it's cool, and they're not
repentant, that's a problem.
SPEAKER_02 (29:58):
Yeah, that's gonna hurt their.
Soul, it's gonna corrupt thecommunity, it's gonna be bad.
Um, so what the what it doesn'tmean though, Matthew 7, is that
just kind of make sure thatyou're doing everything right,
and then that gives youpermission to like be a jerk to
other people and to say you knowuh you know rude things or look
down on them.
(30:19):
It's not permission to be rudeas long as you're kind of like
obviously like that's not whatJesus is saying.
He's saying that in order to umthe you know the jud the measure
that you use will be usedagainst you, make it a good
measure.
Um if if you're gonna judgepeople, let it not be from a
place of arrogance, but a placeof humility, of love, remove the
(30:41):
log, you know, address the spec,because that's how you would
want to be judged by others aswell, right?
I love it.
Yeah, exactly right.
SPEAKER_00 (30:47):
All right, guys, thanks so much for watching.
If you want to text in aquestion, it's 737 231 0605.
We'd love to hear from you.
Uh we'll see you again next timefrom our house to yours.
Have an awesome week.
Abortion
And welcome back to Pastor Plex podcast.
I'm your host, Pastor Plik,along with none other than
Pastor Holland.
Greg, how are we doing, Holland?
Doing great.
SPEAKER_02 (00:11):
Thanks, Chris.
SPEAKER_00 (00:12):
All right, we got a couple questions from uh the fan
base, and we want to jump rightinto those.
Uh, first one comes from alistener.
What were the roles of priestsmentioned in the Bible prior to
the law?
Like Melchizedek and Jethro, andeven Balaam.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (00:32):
Nice.
Good question.
Yeah, this is an intensequestion because clearly there
also you could say like uhAbraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in a
sense, were uh had a priestlytype role even in their
families, yeah, right before thelaw.
SPEAKER_00 (00:45):
Yeah, I I think, in fact, all the way down to Moses,
honestly, is so so what do wehave to say?
Let's just take a look atMelchizedek for a second and
Jethro.
Like uh when I think Jethro,remember, he's the priest of
Midian, uh, who clearlyworshipped uh Yahweh, he
sacrifices to him.
(01:06):
Uh, I think in one point, Exodus18, after you know, they all the
Israelites, two million of themshow up.
Jethro shows up with a fam.
And I mean, imagine beingJethro.
You've you've given yourdaughter to Moses, who is now
80.
And he goes, he goes back topick up a couple people from
(01:30):
Egypt, and he prom brings backtwo million of them, and he's
about to leave them into thepromised land.
I mean, and that's a wildthought.
I mean, just uh just as a man, ahuman being, that's crazy, but
he's also a priest.
Right.
What and what do you think hisrole was back then?
SPEAKER_02 (01:47):
So it's a role of spiritual leadership, prophet,
priest, and king are the threemain offices, the three main
official leadership um positionsthat mediated between God and
people.
And so prophets spoke to peopleon behalf of God, primarily.
(02:08):
Um, priests uh spoke to God onbehalf of people, right?
Um, and then kings ruled overthe people under God.
And so you have um reallygovernance as a focus of kings,
um, communicating a message fromGod for prophets and
communicating the prayers of thepeople and the needs of the
(02:29):
people and the sins of thepeople to God from a priest.
And so that was that's evenbefore the law, um, you have the
importance of a spiritual leaderwho goes to God on behalf of his
people.
That's what I would say a priestis.
SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
Yeah, so so what about these specific priests?
Uh here's what's sort of wildwhen I think about um uh
specifically Jethro.
Okay.
He is the descendant of Abrahamthrough Keturah.
Remember his like I don't know,you may not know this.
Like, after Sarah dies, he getsremarried, and this woman gives
(03:03):
him a bunch of kids.
Right.
Like she was not barren, and hewas an old man, and you know,
Midian is in that that mix, andhe's a priest of Midian, so must
be in that the bloodline of uhAbraham.
So it's kind of an interestingreality that remember, all
nations will be blessed throughAbraham, and so this is kind of
(03:24):
convening back together Mosesand and and you know the thing
about Moses is he was althoughhe was an Israelite, he spent
most or well, he spent thisfirst 40 years as an Egyptian,
his next 40 years as aMidianite, and then his final 40
years as an Israelite, really isthe best way to see that.
(03:45):
Yeah, and so when I when I lookat this, I look at Jethro, who
is a priest, kind of uh likesaying, Yes, your God is the one
true God.
We worship this same God who hasyou know spoken to him through
obviously Mount Sinai.
Remember they they call it themountain of God, yeah, and
(04:05):
that's where Jethro was.
So he had some sort ofinteraction with God on Mount
Sinai.
Again, this is where we don'tknow enough, there is enough
historical evidence, but he iswhat I really see what Moses
does is he unites threedifferent types of people:
Egyptian, Midian, and Israelite,all under one God.
And then he brings about theMosaic covenant of like this is
(04:28):
how you're to live under God'slaw for relationship with him.
Yeah.
And maybe that's a little bittoo much to kind of put in that
from a Jethro standpoint only,because we don't know enough
about him.
What we do know is that heministered to the people as an
intermediary intermediary onbehalf of the medium people
before Almighty God.
SPEAKER_02 (04:45):
Yeah, yeah.
Priest taking going to God onbehalf of the people.
You see, you have sacrificesbefore the law.
Yep.
Remember uh Cain and Abel?
Yeah, you have a sacrifice righthere in Exodus 18.
Yeah, you have sacrifices beforethe law, you have prayer before
the law, you have even Sabbathobservance.
Remember um gathering the foodin the wilderness, the manna?
You didn't, you know, you reston the seventh day.
(05:06):
Right.
So you have a lot of thesethings that actually were
spiritual principles andpractices before they were
codified in the law.
And the same is true of, youknow, the role of the priest, a
spiritual leader who goes to Godon behalf of his people.
That's what God's saying.
SPEAKER_00 (05:19):
I love that.
Okay, so what about Melchizedek?
Because I think Melchizedek isone of he there's only two
Melchizedek comes up twice inthe Old Testament.
He comes up in Genesis, is it22?
No, Genesis.
No, it's more like 14 or 15.
Okay, Genesis 14.
Genesis 14, comes up, Genesis14, then he comes up in Psalm
(05:40):
110, and then he shows up inHebrews.
He's got this Old Testamentrandom story where uh he is just
a priest, he bring um he's ahigh priest of God, and then
he's also the king of Salem, andAbraham of all things offers
(06:01):
tithes to him of all things.
Yes, you have tithing before thelaw, also.
You have tithing before the law.
It's it's a it's a wild thing.
And so with Melchizedek, heremains mysterious, I think on
purpose for God's purposes.
He has no beginning, no end, iswhat Hebrews says.
And then Psalm 110 gives us thiswild I Psalm 110 is so crazy.
(06:25):
And the reason why I say it's socrazy is because you would never
think this was written beforeJesus, like hundreds of years,
maybe even a thousand years uhbefore Jesus shows up.
Sit at my right hand until Imake your enemies your
(06:47):
footstool.
The Lord sends forth from Zionyour mighty scepter, rule in the
midst of your enemies.
Your people will offerthemselves freely on the day of
your power in holy garments,from the womb of the morning,
the dew of your youth will beyours.
The Lord has sworn and will notchange his mind, you are a
priest forever after the orderof Melchizedek.
(07:10):
Which like he's only mentionedone time in Genesis 14.
How in the world are yousupposed to understand that in
Psalm 110?
This is David, by the power ofthe spirit, is prophesying a
song, which there was no way hecould understand what he was
saying.
Like, I just don't think therewas any way.
SPEAKER_02 (07:28):
All right, here's here's the thing the Lord says
to my Lord.
So the Lord, Yahweh, says to myLord, some ruler over David.
Okay.
But who was the ruler overDavid?
God.
Yeah, so there was no humanruler over David at that time.
Right.
But David did know that Godpromised a future king from the
(07:50):
line of David who would reignforever.
And so if you're David, I Ithink you could logically reason
that this king is going tosomehow be a divine king, a king
who's going to reign forever.
And if he's a divine king, then,you know, I, you know, who knows
how much David knew.
But you go, maybe he knew thathe, you know, existed.
(08:12):
Maybe David understood a littlebit more about the Trinity than
we realize.
Don't know.
Right.
But he he has this understandingthat um this uh future
descendant of his will be aneternal king somehow.
And he's saying here he's alsogoing to be a priest.
And so who is the only otherpriest king that we know of in
(08:33):
the Old Testament, Melchizedek?
He was a priest of the most highGod, and he was the king of
Salem.
And so the idea of the Messiahcoming from David, who would be
a priest king, who would notonly govern the people, but uh
mediate between the people andGod.
And the only other person youhave like that in the Bible is
Melchizedek.
(08:53):
And so it's a it's it's a coolconnection.
SPEAKER_00 (08:56):
Yeah, and Jesus actually uh quotes Psalm 110.
Uh where was it, Matthew 22?
Uh he's like after the Phariseesask him question after question
after question, he then's like,I got a question for you.
What do you think about theMessiah?
Whose son, like, whose son ishe?
And they replied, Son of David.
Then he quotes Psalm 110.
(09:17):
So, how is it that David,speaking by the Spirit, calls
him Lord?
Yeah, which like you don't callyour son Lord unless kind of
what you said.
Yeah.
It's it's it that Psalm 110 tome is if there's any psalm to
investigate and just pour over.
Yeah, it's so cool.
SPEAKER_02 (09:33):
It is like the coolest psalm.
There's so much in there.
And but yeah, Melchizedekbecomes the way of understanding
the idea of a priest king thatwould come from David and rule
forever.
And that's Jesus.
SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:47):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (09:48):
Let's that's that's awesome.
Uh, but we're gonna shift gearsto the next question.
Okay.
All right, uh, it says this fromone of our uh fearless
listeners.
Thank you so much for thisquestion, by the way.
I saw a Facebook post wheresomeone cherry-picked
Thessalonians 2, 14 and 15.
If you can look that up.
Yeah, let's look it up tojustify anti-Semitism.
I looked up the full passage andsaw that they were twisting it
(10:10):
to spread hate.
My first thought was to unfriendthem, or maybe post the full
context to expose theirmanipulation, but I doubt it
would change their hearts.
I was curious to hear yourthoughts on this one.
SPEAKER_02 (10:21):
All right, here it is.
1 Thessalonians 2, 14 and 15.
For you, brothers, becameimitators of the churches of God
and Christ Jesus that are inJudea.
For you suffered the same thingsfrom your own countrymen as they
did from the Jews, who killedboth the Lord Jesus and the
prophets, and drove us out, anddispleased God, and oppose all
(10:45):
mankind.
unknown (10:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (10:47):
Keep going.
Yeah, keep going because theverse 16 is good, yeah.
By hindering us from speaking tothe Gentiles that they might be
saved, so as always to fill upthe measure of their sins, but
wrath has come upon them atlast.
SPEAKER_00 (10:58):
Okay.
So this is the I think whatthey're saying, or the person
that took this verse, I think Iwould say out of context, is
that that therefore all Jews arethe enemy.
Like they are the ones foreverand ever and ever, their kids
kind of take up this mantle ofpreventing, you know, driving
Jesus out, drove us out, anddispleased God and oppose all
(11:20):
mankind.
I think there that's problematicbecause of course we know there
are Jews that have been saved.
There are Jews that didn'thinder Paul.
What's that?
Yeah, like Paul.
Yeah, yeah.
Saul who became Paul, the guythat wrote the letter was a Jew.
So clearly that can't justify acultural hatred of um of someone
an anti-Semite, for, forexample.
(11:41):
But um, and I think alsoremember, you this gets back
into an anthropologicalstatement that we find that
shifts in the book of Ezekiel.
You are only to die for your ownsins.
You don't, it isn't like yoursins aren't put upon you to the
fourth generation that inEzekiel each one dies for his
(12:03):
own sins.
We sort of see that for hiswriting.
Whereas I still think there'sgonna be blessing for a thousand
generations for God's people,but it is everyone must come
before God and take on uh andeither receive Jesus'
forgiveness or um experience thewrath of God by rejecting him.
And that ultimately is um is isthose I don't not not that
(12:29):
you're against our battle, isn'tagainst flesh and blood, right?
This is uh Ephesians 6, butagainst the spiritual forces of
darkness.
And these particular Jews atthis particular time were um
effectively against Jesus andagainst his message and were
enemies of God.
And the answer wasn't to killthem, the answer was to pray for
(12:51):
them and to try to win themover.
Well, and and maybe that's thepart where even if they are your
enemy, like whoever is yourenemy, your answer isn't, oh,
let's go blow them away.
The answer is to pray for themand and pursue them in joy and
peace.
SPEAKER_02 (13:05):
Yeah, there's a lot there.
I I think even so whatcomplicates it is when you say
Jew, right, you could that couldrefer to someone's ethnicity,
right?
It could refer to someone'sreligion, right?
It could refer to someone'snationality or culture.
So if they live in Judea, thenyou're a Jew, right?
(13:27):
Because that's you know, you'refrom Judea.
Right.
Um, but a lot of the times thosethings are combined together.
Um, but so Paul would be anexample of someone who, you
know, ethnically is a Jew, butreligiously is not a Jew.
Right.
He's a Christian.
Um and what it seems like whathe's talking about here is those
(13:50):
who were not just ethnicallyJewish, but those who were
religiously Jewish.
And the Jewish religion on thewhole rejects Jesus Christ.
It 100% rejects Jesus Christ.
Yeah.
Obviously.
Um and so, and the Jewish peoplein that time that rejected Jesus
Christ were also persecuting theChristians.
(14:11):
Right.
And so that's what he's talkingabout.
Um, he's saying, You inThessalonica, you're suffering
from Thessalonians, you know,who are persecuting you, but
you're following the example ofum, you know, the church is in
Judea, right?
Who they were being persecutedby the Jews, just like they were
being persecuted by the Jews,you're being persecuted by the
(14:31):
Thessalonians, and you'reremaining faithful, just like
the church in Judea remainedfaithful.
So he's making a connectionthere.
What that doesn't mean iseveryone who's ethnically Jewish
um is needs to be purged.
Yeah, is is an enemy.
Right.
But those who are religiouslyJewish, Paul even Paul says
Romans 11, 28, as regards thegospel, they are enemies for
(14:54):
your sake.
Right.
So they're enemies of thegospel.
And he says, for your sake,because because it was because
of the Jews rejecting the gospelthat it goes out to the
Gentiles.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (15:03):
If all the Jews were like, We're on board, Jesus,
you're the king.
SPEAKER_02 (15:07):
But they rejected it, and the gospel goes out to
the Gentiles, and so theGentiles are benefiting from the
Jews rejecting it.
So they're enemies of the faith.
So from a um religiousstandpoint, how do you treat
enemies of the faith?
And relationally, you pray forthem, you share the gospel with
them, you bless them.
You bless them.
Um that doesn't mean that you uhaffirm like uh lies or affirm
(15:34):
that, you know, oh, theirreligion.
Like I read something the theother day, it was like the
ligonier state of theologysurvey.
Have you seen those?
No.
Ask a bunch of questions toAmericans, and then you can
filter it for evangelicals.
Right.
And it was like 40, I think thenumber was 47% of evangelicals
in America think that Godaccepts the worship of uh Jews
(15:58):
and Muslims along withChristians.
God accepts all worship.
And so there is this mindset oflike, oh, the Jews are um
religiously, the Jewish religionis like, oh, they're they're
good people who are, you know,they're gonna go to heaven.
They don't understand.
And same with Muslims, it's likeyou have to understand these are
religions that explicitly rejectJesus Christ and desperately
(16:20):
need the gospel.
And, you know, there's yeah,it's it's not just like, oh,
they have a faith in God, sothey're saved.
No, they reject Jesus, who isthe way, the truth, and the
life.
SPEAKER_00 (16:30):
And nobody gets to the Father except through him.
Yeah.
And I think that like you canstill have a respect for Israel,
but understand that they are notGod's people because they've
rejected God's son.
SPEAKER_02 (16:46):
You mean um now, see, even when you say Israel,
do you mean uh those who areethnically connected to or are
you talking about the modernnation?
SPEAKER_00 (16:56):
I was saying modern day Israel.
I think sometimes we want tolike you can live in the nation
of Israel, I can go move toIsrael, you know.
And you could actually become orcan't I?
I don't even know.
Well, let's say if you have aJewish background, you can go
live there and become a city,they'll pay you.
Um it's a pretty good deal.
But do you have to have a Jewishbackground to move there?
No, but like you get there, theyhave a thing like it's uh, you
know, they're calling the dealhome or something.
(17:17):
Yeah.
Uh anyway, uh So it's important.
SPEAKER_02 (17:20):
I guess the point of all that is to distinguish what
do you mean by Israel, what doyou mean by Jew?
Um, and uh should you hate youknow, Jewish people of the
Jewish religion or the Jewishethnicity?
No.
You there's a valid category ofenemy of the gospel and that
they reject Jesus, but theresponse to that should be to
(17:42):
pray that they might be saved.
That's what Paul said.
Right.
He said, They're my kinsmenaccording to the flesh.
I will think they might be savedand I be accursed, which it
can't be happen, can't happen.
So he had this desire that theywould be saved and uh would say
they are enemies of the gospel,but I I still want them to be
saved.
Yeah.
Um and Paul was a Jew who gotsaved.
(18:03):
So but then he he no longeridentifies as a Jew in terms of
uh, you know, when he explainswho he is, he says, I'm an
apostle of Jesus Christ, aservant of Jesus Christ, right?
SPEAKER_00 (18:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:14):
So Okay.
Um, but are they wanting to knowlike what should they do?
Should they comment back?
SPEAKER_00 (18:20):
Yeah, yeah.
I think they're saying, like, Ifeel like they're this.
SPEAKER_02 (18:26):
And there's what do you think about that?
I'm like, there's a time toengage online, and what they're
saying, there's a time where youand I have both engaged online.
SPEAKER_00 (18:34):
We have in a lot in sort of some Facebook battles.
And sometimes I think, honestly,I think it's good uh to be a
person that puts truth outthere, especially in a world
that when people live in echochambers and they only hear
their own perspective echoedback to them, and you go,
(18:55):
actually, that's not okay.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:58):
And I I've engaged quite a bit on things online,
but there's also like I'vepassed over way more things than
I've engaged on.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You gotta, you gotta choosewhat's gonna be fruitful and if
it's very important.
SPEAKER_00 (19:09):
Sometimes I look at it and I'm like, do I want if I
just throw like a one shot outthere and I don't have time to
back it up with like morethings, sometimes I feel like
and I don't, or if I don't, Ican only don't have time to have
right an appropriate responsethat's yeah, compassionate yet
at the same time truthful, andall the things I go, I don't
have time for that.
Yeah.
Um pray about it.
Yeah, pray about it.
Maybe it's the right thing,maybe it's not.
(19:29):
Pray about it.
Uh now, Paul does call himself aJew uh whenever he was uh
witnessing.
Remember, he said uh he wasaddressing uh in Acts 22.
Is this Agrippa?
Where he goes, uh, I'm a Jewfrom Tarsus and Silesia, citizen
of no obscure city.
I beg you, permit me to speak tothe people.
Again, yeah, look look what he'ssaying, though.
SPEAKER_02 (19:50):
He's not saying uh his religion.
He's saying, This is where I'mfrom.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
This is where I I lived.
Um so he's not saying I'm onelike he wouldn't include himself
in the category of the Jews interms of religion.
Obviously, he's a Christian, butin terms of his nationality,
yeah.
He was a Roman citizen, he was aRoman and he was a Jew in terms
(20:12):
of where he lived.
SPEAKER_00 (20:13):
Yeah, and that was actually back in Jerusalem,
where he goes, Hey, I'm a Jew.
Yeah.
Uh and he's like, he was like, Iwill use whatever defense I can,
uh-huh.
Uh, but I'm gonna go, and thenhe starts sharing the gospel.
And then we the thing that waswild to me in that story, it's
when Paul turns it from, hey,this the salvation is offered to
(20:35):
the Jews to salvation is nowoffered to the Gentiles that
everyone wanted to kill him.
Like, that's the part I don'tunderstand.
Like, I don't, and maybe it'slike yeah, it's wild to me that
that would be the thing thatbroke everything.
Not that Jesus died on thecross, rose from the dead, he's
the Messiah, the one you've beenwaiting for, but that now
Gentiles everywhere areworshiping him like that.
They all picked up rocks tostone him.
(20:55):
Yeah.
And that might be it, that's anaside.
Okay, uh, let's go on to uh lastquestion before we jet out of
here.
Uh it says, I'm reading 2 Samuelnow.
In 1 Samuel 15, God rejects Saulas king because Saul did not
kill all of the Amalekites andall of their livestock.
Saul was to leave none alive.
Saul didn't do as the Lordcommanded.
(21:16):
Why didn't God remove Saul fromthe throne at that time?
God allowed Saul to remain kingand even allowed Saul to try to
kill God's newly anointed David.
Was it to teach David something?
Was it to let Israel sufferbecause they rejected God as
their king?
David had two opportunities totake Saul's life, but David
wouldn't do it.
He wouldn't raise against theLord, raise his hand against the
(21:37):
Lord's anointing.
Yeah.
Was this God's way of lettingGod grow up and teaching David
humility?
Great question.
Way to go reading the Bible,first of all.
Yeah.
Love that.
You are reading the Bibleintensely.
SPEAKER_02 (21:50):
Yeah.
I really appreciate that.
And yeah, the two questions ofwhat uh what was it?
Is this uh why did he let whydid why didn't God remove Saul
right away?
No, but the last at the end, wasit to teach David something?
Yeah.
Was it to let Israel sufferbecause they had rejected God as
their king?
I think it's yes to both ofthose.
I think God is always doing alot of things with one thing,
(22:11):
you know?
And so, yeah, they reject,they're like, no, we want a king
like the other nations.
And so I think part of it is Godgoing, all right, here's the
problem with kings.
Um and then the other part is,okay, well, we know that um the
furnace of affliction is wheremen are made.
And so uh, if David's gonna bethe king that God wanted him to
(22:34):
be, he's got to go through theaffliction for him to be ready.
And so it's like a double,double whammy.
He gets to kind of let Israelsee the foolishness that they
had kind of given into inwanting Saul in the first place,
right?
And and then also use that toprepare David for his reign as
king.
Yeah.
So I think it's both.
SPEAKER_00 (22:52):
I mean, and you really see, I mean, he's always
called a man after God's ownheart, uh, all throughout um his
time of running away from Saul.
Yeah.
Even when he goes to thePhilistines and tries to hang
out in Gath, uh, and even whenhe murders Uriah because he
wanted his wife, got hisrepentance, his heart toward
(23:13):
God, even though he does dumbthings a lot, uh, he is a man
that God loved and he wanted thebest ultimately for Israel, even
though he made poor decisions.
Um, which is comforting in manyways, because you're like, oh, I
guess I'm not that lost of ahope.
SPEAKER_02 (23:31):
Yeah.
Um, yeah, I that that makessense to me.
I think I think definitely Godwas doing both of those things,
and you see what you know, whatit required of David, like the
example when he um could havetaken his life but didn't.
Yeah.
You know, those are testingmoments, testing a man's heart
um to see if he's the the kindof man you want to be a king,
(23:54):
you know.
Right.
And God already knows,obviously, but even though God
knows, he tests us, right?
So those are tests for Davidthat only came about because of
the kind of the the poor kind ofking that Saul was, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (24:09):
Yes.
Okay, here's another questionthat just came in.
We in our we as you know, wealso do another path podcast
called A Chapter Day.
SPEAKER_02 (24:18):
That's right.
Uh keeps the devil away.
SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
It does.
And I got this uh this onequestion says, okay, judge or
sorry, Matthew 7.
This passage is saying that I'mtechnically allowed to judge as
long as I've as I've confessed,addressed, repented for my own
sin.
Then I can judge others,deciding whether I should feel
convicted or not.
(24:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (24:41):
Yes.
You should judge others uh withright judgment.
And how what's the best way todo that, you think?
I think that's the part wherewell, yeah, that's what the
passage says.
Take the log out of your owneye, yep, so that you can see
clearly to take the speck out ofyour brother's eye.
So yeah, kind of make sureyou're in a place of um uh
you're not looking, you're notcoming with uh haughty eyes.
(25:04):
We read in Proverbs this morningin the men's group about having
haughty eyes, um, a proud orarrogant spirit, that you're not
coming into it like that way.
The um judgment, we often thinkof judgment very negatively as
in like, oh, you're you're justsaying something mean about
someone or you're picking onthem or you're looking down on
them.
But judgment, just what the wordmeans is like you're discerning
(25:27):
something, you're making a moralevaluation.
So that's obviously an importantpart of the Christian life in
community, is that you makemoral evaluations about your own
self and about the communitythat you're a part of.
Yeah.
And to do that with haughty eyesand arrogance is very unhealthy.
But to do it with humility andgrace and love is a good thing.
SPEAKER_00 (25:45):
Yeah.
Remember, and the the reason whypeople I think take this verse,
I don't want to say out ofcontext, but say, judge not that
you be not judged.
In other words, and then heexplains it, for with a judgment
you pronounce, you will bejudged, and with the measure you
use, it will be measured to you.
Yeah.
So if you're going around uhjudging people for their
(26:06):
conduct, are you doing the samething, perhaps in a different
way, and you're blind to it.
So if you usually, and this iswhy I always say to people, like
if you notice arrogance insomeone, you're probably not
liking the very thing that's inyou that you see in them.
And so you're like, man, thatguy's so arrogant.
And then you don't realize yourarrogance may not be external,
(26:30):
right?
You're you're sharing it witheveryone how how great you are,
but it's internal, where you'rejust kind of walking around
going, like, suckers, I'm waybetter than you.
And I think that's where Jesussays, like, the one who can
judge the heart is ultimatelygoing to be the one that that
sees that.
And then what's cool is like,hey, take the log out of your
own eye, see your own darkness,and start there.
(26:51):
Like, hey, I've got this issuetoo.
I just wanted you to know that Ilove you enough to help you take
the log out of your own eye orthe speck out of your eye.
But then, verse six, do not givedogs what is holy and do not
throw your pearls before pigslest they trample them underfoot
and turn to attack you.
In other words, sometimes youmight have the right truth and
it's the wrong time because thatperson isn't ready for it, and
(27:12):
they turn on you and attack you,and that could be um a negative
consequence of you genuinelytrying to help somebody with
wisdom.
SPEAKER_02 (27:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh 1 Corinthians 5, you know,the guy who's sleeping with his
mother-in-law.
SPEAKER_00 (27:27):
Yeah, or dad's wife, yeah.
Yeah.
So, like, so his original mom isno longer the picture.
His dad remarried and he'ssleeping with her.
Yes.
Okay.
I always thought it wasmother-in-law.
No, so yeah, father's wife iswhat is is Yeah, father's wife.
But but it, you know, it couldbe his is now his mother-in-law.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:47):
Okay.
Well, on that passage, whenPaul's saying, um, hey, you need
to kick him out of the church ifyou won't repent.
Right.
You know, um, because a littleleaven leavens the whole lump.
And um don't even associatewith, don't even eat with such a
one, he says.
And then he's he clarifies, hesays, I don't mean to not
associate with the sexuallyimmoral in the world.
(28:09):
You'd have to go out of theworld.
So, like, of course, you shouldbe, you know, doing evangelism
and building friendships andrelationships with people who
are sexually immoral that arenot Christians.
But if someone claims to be aChristian and lives that way,
then you need to um uh kick themout of the church, you know, if
they're not gonna repent.
And what he says at the end ofthat is for what have I to do
(28:30):
with judging outsiders, right?
This I'm not talking aboutpeople outside the church, I'm
talking about inside of thechurch.
He says, Is it not those insidethe church whom you are to
judge?
Right.
Literally says that you aresupposed to judge those inside
of the church, meaning you oughtto make moral evaluations.
Yep.
Does the way someone lives lineup, line up with the faith that
(28:51):
they profess?
If not, then yeah, of course yougot to address that with love.
Galatians 6, you know, ifanyone's in sin, you who are
spiritual should go to them in aspirit of gentleness and correct
them.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
I think for us as a church, what we decided on this
was those who we affirm theirsalvation through their
membership, we we say, and youwant us to judge you.
And that's kind of when youbecome a member of our church,
you're saying, please look at mylife and speak into it.
Uh and so, like, let's say ifyou're just kicking the tires,
but you don't really know thatyou're not a Christian, I always
(29:25):
have to unconvert people beforewe convert them.
Like you really don't loveJesus.
And that's okay.
Like, I would love to share withyou who Jesus is, but let's not
pretend that you're a Christian,but you don't, you know, you you
worship me with your lips, butyou don't do what I say, uh, is
what a lot of people end updoing.
And I think right here is agreat example of like, what are
you to do with someone who is aa member of the body of Christ?
(29:48):
You want them to feel the weightof their sin that separates them
from God because uh if we justkind of go like, oh, it's okay,
you know, Jesus forgives you,it's cool, and they're not
repentant, that's a problem.
SPEAKER_02 (29:58):
Yeah, that's gonna hurt their.
Soul, it's gonna corrupt thecommunity, it's gonna be bad.
Um, so what the what it doesn'tmean though, Matthew 7, is that
just kind of make sure thatyou're doing everything right,
and then that gives youpermission to like be a jerk to
other people and to say you knowuh you know rude things or look
down on them.
(30:19):
It's not permission to be rudeas long as you're kind of like
obviously like that's not whatJesus is saying.
He's saying that in order to umthe you know the jud the measure
that you use will be usedagainst you, make it a good
measure.
Um if if you're gonna judgepeople, let it not be from a
place of arrogance, but a placeof humility, of love, remove the
(30:41):
log, you know, address the spec,because that's how you would
want to be judged by others aswell, right?
I love it.
Yeah, exactly right.
SPEAKER_00 (30:47):
All right, guys, thanks so much for watching.
If you want to text in aquestion, it's 737 231 0605.
We'd love to hear from you.
Uh we'll see you again next timefrom our house to yours.
Have an awesome week.
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