March 12, 2025 • 39 mins
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345: Pastor Plek, Pastor Holland, and Bri and Pablo Mota explore the dynamics of showing physical affection in Christian communities on this episode. Physical affection within the Christian community raises complex questions about cultural norms, boundaries, and the biblical call to love. We explore the nuances of hugging versus kissing and aim to normalize healthy, platonic gestures of affection.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec, andwe are talking about a hot
button issue that just hit theset and, uh, adrian is going to
just share.
Adrian is going to go.
Before she goes, just tell ushow you grew up nope, she
doesn't want to share that butuh, brie has a dilemma, a
question that she just broughtup and it infused so much um
(00:30):
fire on in the studio here thatwe need to talk about it that's
probably a good thing.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
This person doesn't listen to the podcast I was just
going to ask if they don't.
I know they don't well, Iquestion.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Oh, the hug question is is it okay to hug the
opposite sex like aforward-facing?
Hug a front hug instead of aside hug.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Chest to chest, yeah, and I think that's dependent
upon the person.
And the reason I'd say that is,if you're hugging and you're
just looking to feel boobs, thenthat probably isn't the best
move, uh, but if, but if you'rehugging and you're just there's
a way to hug where you're notlike smashing up against the
person, um, and there's a way toside hugs are great, you know,
(01:14):
and maybe you know as the the,the closer, the friendship or
whatever.
It just depends on on whereyou're at, um with the
connection.
But, yeah, so for me personally, I kind of, I kind of kind of
gauge the comfort level of theother person and I, if I've just
met them, I kind of go sidehugging cause I don't want to be
weird about it.
Uh, if, like, if they just leanin for, uh, you know cause
(01:35):
they're like, oh, it's so greatto see I haven't seen you, or
whatever, but I I hug them.
And you know we have differentbackgrounds.
We've got Latin culture here,where I have some sweet grandmas
that will launch a massive kisson my cheek and it's the best.
I think that's super sweet.
And then I've got very, youknow, the handshakers, you know.
(01:55):
So you've, I kind of don't wantto break a barrier that
somebody is uncomfortable with,and so I'm sort of trying to
manage that, um, but I do wantto show affection in a brotherly
way, um, and I think that'simportant to do.
I think it's important toinitiate affection, uh, because,
you know, greet one anotherwith a holy kiss is, I think, an
(02:16):
imperative that you have toculturally define of what it is
to show affection in a physicalway.
That is not weird.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, what do you think there,pastor Holland?
Speaker 4 (02:29):
Yeah, I think this.
So holy kiss.
Four commands in the NewTestament Romans 16, 16,.
Greet one another with a holykiss.
First, Corinthians 16, 20,greet one another with a holy
kiss.
Second, Corinthians 13, 12,greet one another with a holy
kiss.
First Thessalonians 5, 26,.
Greet all one another with aholy kiss.
2 Corinthians 13, 12, greet oneanother with a holy kiss.
1 Thessalonians 5, 26,.
Greet all the brothers with aholy kiss.
(02:49):
Four times in the New Testament.
Right, and like it sounds funny, but I feel convicted about
this.
I'm like what are we doing withhandshakes, bro?
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Am I sinning?
Speaker 4 (03:02):
Get that out the door .
Am I Like I don't kiss anyoneexcept my wife and kids on
Sunday?
Yeah, at my church, me either,and you know, a hug.
I think you repent, so youcould go well, this is a
principle.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
A couple grandmas I give a kiss back to whenever
they give me the yeah, Good foryou.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
Yeah, you, you could go take this on.
You know, in that culture aholy kiss was an actual kiss.
You know, in ours the principleof a holy kiss is like a hug,
but it kind of feels like acop-out.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
And I wonder if we need to initiate some holy
kissing.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
I mean, is there like a reformation that needs to
happen here, bringing back theholy kiss?
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Let me tell you this when I was in Iraq, obviously I
was a Christian, but I was withMuslims everywhere.
Right, I would sneak into ahouse and it was like my
informant.
So I'd go in the dead of thenight, wake them up, scare the
absolute crap out of them andyou've got like seven guys in
the room with machine guns intheir house.
But then they would bring outthe tea and they would greet me
(04:02):
with a holy kiss.
Now, when I greeted them, I waswearing my helmet and nods, and
it was you know the awkwardwhere you drill something like
headbutt somebody.
I mean, I took these guys outleft and right, not meaning to,
but because they went full inholy kiss and I'm not used to it
.
I'm not, and you know theirbeards all over my face.
It was totally the weirdestthing.
However, once I got used to it,I appreciated the closeness I
(04:26):
felt to my informants.
It made me feel closer to them.
Yeah, as wild as that may seem,and so I do think there is
something powerful to it.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
I hear that, okay, so one, okay, the full, the front
hug thing and like the problemthere, like someone's trying to
avoid, like temptation, becauseof a hug which I think is
evidence of just like man, it ishard for us to imagine any kind
of physical touch that's notsexual Right and so which makes
(04:58):
you go?
Well, we definitely don't needto be kissing each other, unless
maybe the answer is to like.
Yeah, kissing each other, unlessmaybe the answer is to like
yeah, maybe what we needactually is to be more
intentional about healthy,non-sexual physical affection in
a familial type of way, andthat might help, like actually
break down the oversexualization and renormalize
(05:21):
non-sexual, yeah, physical.
I don't know, maybe the answerhere.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
I feel like this, the Maybe the answer here how did
we get here?
I feel like the question Iwould like to ask is how did we
get here?
So I've done some travel aroundthe world and when I had some
like not Russian, but just westof Russia friendships like
Slovenian or whatever, and likeI got kisses on the cheek from
those dudes and again it was.
I was not prepared for that andit was in an American setting,
(05:48):
but they were totally that wastheir culture and I was like I
guess we're doing this.
You know it was, I was not, andokay.
And then also when I was inAfrica, in in Tanzania, um, I
was walking along the beach andthis Tanzanian man starts
holding my hand.
Oh yeah, hold hands everywhereand I was like dying a thousand
deaths and I couldn't stoptalking.
(06:09):
I'd be like, well, I guesswe're holding hands now.
This is, you know, notsomething we do, and I was so
weirded out by it that I talkedabout the whole time.
But I hung in there because Iwas like I'm not going to be
weird, I'm going to hang inthere on this whole hand-holding
thing, but it was verydifficult because it was so
abnormal, and I think that'spart of me wonders.
(06:30):
is it a British and Americanthing where we've
over-sexualized everything andso we've?
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
What is it?
My basic theory on pretty muchevery problem that exists in all
societies, everywhere, is likethe fathers, it just always goes
back to your father and so likeI think that's just like.
That's somehow it's related tothat of fathers not showing
affection to their families andtheir children not showing
(06:57):
affection to their wife, notshowing loving fatherly
affection to their children, notencouraging an environment of
loving affection in the home.
The father's failure of that hasmade us all just kind of like
you know um, emotionalaffectionate orphans in a sense
where we just don't know how todo this, well mixed with, like,
(07:18):
the prevalence of pornographyand may you know takes that like
we don't know how to doaffection, and then we see this
overemphasis on sexual stuff,with all the pornography and all
the and takes that like wedon't know how to do affection,
and then we see thisoveremphasis on sexual stuff
with all the pornography and allthe overly sexualized media and
stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
I think that combo probably is what brought us to
where we are yeah, because whenI think about what people wear,
when you go to tropicalcountries or you go to Africa,
they're not wearing much.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
It's not like they know.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
It's not like they have this sense of like modesty,
they're just like this is whatyou do, is what you wear like
I'm showing my shoulders.
I don't care like that kind ofthing is like a normalized part
of culture, right?
Speaker 4 (07:57):
yeah, I see what you're saying.
So I, just because somethinghappens somewhere doesn't
necessarily mean it's the rightthing, absolutely sure.
So you do have a point, right.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Right, it's like but in that culture no one's
thinking, whoa, I, I'm like,it's not sexualized, it's just
whatever.
Now again, yeah to your point.
Just because it's in anothercountry doesn't make it right,
uh, but that does bring us whatis right, yeah and and it may be
the existence of, you know anequal and opposite problem of
(08:26):
being so familiar.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
I'm not saying I don't have any particular place
in mind.
I'm just saying it's possiblefor a culture where the
normalization of not wearingmuch clothing and there's
supposed to be a sense ofdignity that's protected by
modesty that you could lose insome cultures as well.
So, there's a lot of ways youcan go wrong with it.
(08:49):
Um, I mean, that's how Brazilis How's Brazil?
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Yeah, like you go to the beach, it's like G strings
everywhere.
Okay, and that's just the norm,right.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
That's that seems like.
Is that over-sexualization, oris that people being normal?
That's the hard part to wrapyour head around.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Yeah, I think it probably.
I mean I don't know the historyof it, but I feel like it began
as just the norm, yeah, but nowit's to a point where, like
it's so, everything is soover-sexualized, and it's part
of my story is that, like mysexuality was opened up when I
was probably like five or six,that like my sexuality was
opened up when I was probablylike five or six, oh, wow, and
that was just, I guess, the norm.
(09:26):
You know, it's so in your faceand everywhere, that it's just
what happens.
And so I think to your point,like, just because it happens
there and that's the norm, itdoesn't make it good or right.
And I was going to say too, Idefinitely agree with it being
something that starts withfathers, Because for myself, you
(09:48):
know, I had a dad who wouldshow affection, like you know, a
hug and sometimes like you knowa full hug, but it wasn't like
a whole lot to where, like itjust wasn't a lot, you know.
And so, growing up, like I neverhugged no other dudes, and even
up until coming to this churchhugging a dude, especially like
chest to chest, I'm not gonnalie and I'm gonna say it felt
(10:09):
gay.
But you guys know, zach bice,yeah, that dude hugs, hugs and
break your back.
And now, after being at thischurch for so long and having
dudes tell me I love you, you,it's the norm to me.
I'll hug every guy I meet nowbecause I'm like bro, that's
just the way you do it and, toyour point, it makes me feel
(10:32):
really close to them.
And so, even though it's kindof funny talking about a
brotherly kiss, I'm like dude,imagine how much closer we would
feel to each other if westarted greeting with a
brotherly kiss.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
I'm saying I'm feeling the Lord's stirring
something right now.
It's funny, but there's so muchtruth behind it.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
It's literally commanded four times in the New
Testament.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Does that not stick with you guys.
No listen, I'm with you.
So I kissed my dad on the lipswhen I was a teenager and I
didn't even think anything of itand it was just like what you
did and I don't know.
I don't know if that is good,bad or different.
I was waiting to see if Pablowas going to say gay or not.
I feel bad now.
I don't know, it was just mydad, and so I was just like
that's just what you did.
(11:19):
I.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
I feel so bad because my grandpa has mastered the
brotherly kiss Like he will gogreet, you say goodbye, anyone
doesn't matter who you are, andhe's immediately going for the
lips.
And every time you have tododge, but now I feel bad for
dodging him.
Yeah, and you know it's wild.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
My mom is that way, Like I don't know if she's
kissed you.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Yeah, she's kissed Grayson right on the lips and he
was like— Like a decade ago.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
Yeah, and he was not ready for that one.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
And that's just my—I grew up like that, and so when I
came to Christian culture inthe late 90s and I realized oh,
I'm the weird one I didn'trealize that I had a whole bunch
of things that were not normaland I think I crossed everyone's
physical boundary lines.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
But then you read the Bible, yeah, and then I was
like maybe.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
I'm doing it right, wow, look at that Anyway.
But but now to think aboutkissing a dude like that's been
conditioned in me.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, that's weird.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Now thankfully, now I kiss my sons.
I don't kiss them on the lipslike my dad did, but I kiss them
on their face, their head,their you know all over.
I don't mind that, Um, and so Ithink that's something we
probably need to institute moreyeah, institute like require for
membership Institute is likeofficial on stage Brotherly kiss
(12:40):
.
Let's go we're now going to doa man I meet and greet time
About to get a whole lot moreJuicy, Uncomfortable for some
people.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
Oh man, Come on somebody I know we're like, I
mean we're being silly and stuffbut I really am thinking about
this like.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
But to Pablo's point, the amount of I love you's I
hear at our church.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
I'm really encouraged .
That's healthy, that's so good.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Like dudes say I love you, I don't know if women are
doing that, which is kind ofinteresting I don't think we
like you.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
I notice men will say it to someone they just met.
I think women you have to havea much more intimate friendship
with, to just say it unless theycome to you with like a crisis,
like if I'm on the person andsomeone comes to me the crisis,
I always say, like, say, like Ilove you, like you're, you know
we're here for you, even if Idon't know them.
But if it's just like inpassing or hey, nice to meet you
(13:29):
, like I never.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yeah, it is.
I think we do say.
The men are saying I love youleft, and right All right, check
this out.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
This is from some random website.
Okay, here we go.
Random website which we know isgoing to give gospel truth.
Here we go.
It says the usualinterpretation is that the holy
kiss itself is not important.
The greeting is the thing we'retold.
It doesn't really matter howyou do it.
Back then it was a holy kiss.
Today it's a handshake.
Same thing.
Now that seems right until youthink about it.
A kiss is not the same thing asa handshake.
(14:00):
Just ask any teenager.
In the Bible, the holy kiss wasa sign of love, respect,
friendship and honor.
It was a mark of innocentaffection.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
That's like that.
Innocent affection is what weare like deprived of.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
We've seen numerous examples of this sort of kiss in
the Bible.
Jacob kissed his father Genesis27.
Laban kissed Joseph Genesis 29.
Esau kissed Jacob Genesis 33.
Joseph kissed his brothersGenesis 45.
Aaron kissed Moses, exodus 4.
Moses kissed Jethro Exodus 18.
Naomi kissed Ruth and OrpahRuth.
1.
David kissed Jonathan.
(14:35):
1 Samuel 20.
The father kissed the prodigalson, luke 15.
That's a lot of kissing.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
The LGBTQ crowd is going to have a field day with
this one lot of kissing.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
The lgbtq crowd is gonna have a field day with this
one.
Well, but I think that's.
Let's see.
The reason why they could, theywould, is because they're.
What they're saying is that allkissing these are not kisses,
that's based on a sexual right.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
All kissing is sexual right, so I.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
what I love about that is those are familial
kisses and so, as christians,since we're brothers and sisters
in christ, that would be anappropriate response.
Yeah, but we got to change theculture.
Man, I think we're at a goodstart with the I love you's, and
hugs.
(15:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
But man, I don't know , this might be a reach, but I
think it.
I don't know you can somehowtie this to how separated people
are as a whole, like isolated.
You know, in a community likewe, we've lived at places where
we didn't.
We lived there for like twoyears and we didn't know our
(15:41):
next door neighbor, right, and Ithink I don't know you could
somehow tie it to that whereit's like we're so afraid of
something that feels I don'tknow, uncommon or unnatural,
right like going to yourneighbor, introducing yourself,
getting to know them, and youknow I don't know well.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
So let's go back to the original question, which was
our like, uh, frontal hugs.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
I'm like what was the original?
Speaker 1 (16:05):
question yeah so, and the reason you you brought it
up earlier like if you've gotlarge breasts, it's going to be
like, oh, it's going to be anawkward hug, right, or it could
be is that kind of what we weresaying earlier?
Speaker 2 (16:18):
well, it's like almost impossible to not touch
them at all right, and so whatdo you do then?
Speaker 1 (16:26):
um like, so what's your plan?
Or do you even think about it,or do you think about it now?
Speaker 2 (16:30):
I think about it now because it was a guy that
brought it up to me.
So now I'm like, oh, surelyevery guy thinks this way.
So now, when a guy goes in fora front hug, I'm like, why is he
going in for a front hug?
Is he thinking about my breath,like, do I give him a front hug
?
Do I, like, give them theawkward?
Oh, I'm only gonna do a side,like I'm overthinking it now to
the point where I will neverinitiate a hug with another man
(16:51):
that's not my husband whoa man,the women come up like these
ultimatums at the end of likethese things, like all right,
I'm tired of feeling like I'm inthe wrong okay, yeah, um, all
right it's good, so I'm justlike I just won't go there.
Okay, fair enough, fair enoughall right, all right.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
I have seen women, when they're in the front, hug
awkward moment.
They do the super lean, justarms.
They'll lean their body over,so their boobs go down and then
they connect up here it's allshoulders I've seen that.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Again, depending on the size of your breast.
There's no Okay, fair enough,yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
You might like an animal neck hug.
Okay, good point.
Yeah, I think that is a dilemma.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
All right, there's no command in the Bible to hug
anyone Right, so I don't know.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
I mean, there's one to kiss there is one to give a
holy kiss.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
But no commands for hugs, but if you're struggling
with a hug.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
you're going to struggle with a kiss?
I don't know.
I don't know Really.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
A kiss on the cheek Hug equals boobs.
Kiss is just, you know, germs.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
I think when there's something that's not you know,
it's a matter of conscience andthere's freedom.
There's liberty to set up rulesfor yourself or for other
people.
Where you're not violating yourown conscience and feel like
you're not doing something wrong, You're allowed to do that.
We can't expect other people,we can't put those rules on
(18:23):
other people, but for youpersonally, you're like I'm just
going to give high fivesbecause that's what I'm
comfortable with.
Everyone can kind of manage andgovern themselves in that way,
I think.
But I think the underlyingissue there is just the
over-sexualization and the factthat we can't have normal
brotherly affection,brotherly-sisterly affection
(18:45):
with each other without kind oftaking it too far.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
This just in.
We had a live texter from ourstudio audience.
It says this hey, listen,someone like me and that me is
someone who has gay desires isscrewed without culturally
accepted physical affection.
Touch starved Would be nice ifit was normalized more, maybe
even help someone in mysituation to normalize male
(19:09):
affection.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
Wait, so saying that what would be helpful was more
male affection to normalize it,so it wouldn't become this like
ooh exciting, whatever, that'swhat.
I'm saying I think if we workmore at normalizing innocent
(19:32):
affection, it might decrease theamount of like weirdness that
some people feel about stufflike a front hug or you know,
even like same-sex desire stuff,when you're like, oh actually
like there's a sinful desire,but it's also like I just want
affection, like not sexualaffection, but just like
(19:52):
friendship, community touch, ahug, you know, a brotherly kiss,
I don't know, does that makesense?
It totally makes sense.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
I feel like sure, I just like how do you is that
where, like at EastsideCommunity Church, you're going
to have like kiss your neighborday?
I mean, like what?
Speaker 4 (20:06):
how do you institute Kiss your neighbor day?
Is that what you said?
Speaker 1 (20:11):
neighbor day.
I mean like what, how do youkiss your neighbor day?
I mean like, how do younormalize?
Like what's the process tonormalize?
Speaker 4 (20:16):
be the change you want to be the change you want
to see in the world you just gotto start, you know with like a
small group of people who agreewith you that like all right,
and we're just going to do thisand have the bible verse
memorized.
And we're just going to do thisand like other people are
memorized and we're just gonnado this, and like other people
are gonna see it and it's justgonna like catch on, and at some
point you probably got to kindof teach through it.
(20:36):
Actually, yeah, I don't know ifyou can.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
But seriously, though , like it's, it's literally.
This might seem like a race,like I said, but going and
introducing yourself to yourneighbors, having them over for
dinner, sharing real lifeexperiences that's not common oh
what sorry.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
That's not common, but the more you do it, the less
awkward it feels sure, 100 itbecomes a way of life right,
like I said, when I was in iraqkissing, whenever I greeted my
informant, I kissed him everysingle time, every single.
It was like hundreds of kissesuh, on you know scraggly beards,
uh, which, just even thinkingabout now, whenever I hug a dude
(21:15):
and we touch beards, I'm likeyou get flashbacks I don't know.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Here's your challenge .
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Kiss right now on camera.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
I'm not going to put you on pressure on camera.
I don't think that's good topress your conscience in that
way, but at some point I wantyou to just surprise me with a
holy kiss, alright.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
I'll surprise the holy kiss.
The problem is what if you messup and the next thing you know
you're kissing on the lips, andthen it's really weird like it's
nightmarish right.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
As long as you say no homo afterwards, you're good.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Wow, alright, yeah, okay, I accept that challenge.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Alright, just I mean, everybody makes mistakes,
nobody's perfect you can't, ohman.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
So what's weird about this?
I feel like you know how you'rehot under the collar.
It's so weird to even thinkabout.
You feel like embarrassed rightnow.
It's weird to me, so what's theright word?
Speaker 4 (22:23):
weird.
Anyway, paul felt that withapostolic authority he could
command this.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
That is wild.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
Four times in the New Testament and I just can't stop
thinking about it that there'sgot to be something.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
there Is this where you say no homo at the end.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Yeah, okay, all, right, may start there.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah, okay, yeah, all right, okay, I'm going to pause
on that direction.
I'm going to go back to ouroriginal boob hugging.
All right, that's way morecomfortable to talk about than
kissing um.
So what other like experiences?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
have you had breathe that have been uncomf like when
it comes to you?
Speaker 4 (23:03):
we started saying that that's way more awkward
than talking about dudes givingeach other a holy kiss.
You ever hear of skit guys no.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Oh, yeah, he says uncomf in one of the like you
know when you touch handspraying.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
That makes me feel embarrassed is when I hear that
All right, go ahead so give meyour uncomfortableness other
uncomfortable issues.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Yeah, I think the biggest one, even more than the
hugging, was having men reachout to pablo and tell him you
need to control what your wifewears to church, because it is
causing me to stumble oh goshI'm so glad he doesn't listen to
the.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Maybe I should send it to him actually.
Okay, okay, so hold on it'salso not him.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
This is not a one-time thing.
It's been at multiple churchesno listen, we've had multiple
people.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
So um, I'm wearing, I don't know how tight these
jeans are.
Would you consider these tightjeans tight?
Speaker 2 (23:52):
A little tight.
They're a little tight for menjeans, all right.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Sorry, okay, they're a little tight.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
All right, so you get the flares.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Those are coming back in.
They're guess jeans this tightand they were turquoise and she
was on stage singing and like aguy came up to grayson it was
like rec center days, uh, like10 years plus ago, and he's like
, hey, you need to, can't havethat girl on stage anymore, she
needs to wear something else.
Because those jeans are toosexualized and they're just like
green jeans.
(24:25):
They weren't that tight, theywere just normal.
And I was, and I and I didn'teven notice that she was wearing
, like you know, as a personworshiping that morning, I
didn't even see the jeans.
You know, it was just like Idon't know.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
You were focused on worshiping, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
So I think, no matter what, something could get you
spun up and we need to it's theresponsibility of probably both
parties.
You don't want to be over, youdon't want to come with lingerie
but at the same time, like atsome point, like you need to be
able to control, uh, what you'reum, how you're viewing a woman,
(25:02):
right, like that's on you to dothat, however, uh.
So so I think this is I've I'vehad always talked about this.
I've had multiple times peoplehave said hey, shouldn't you
tell the women at church to bemore modest?
And that issue will, becausewhat you're saying is, before
(25:29):
you're allowed to worship, youhave to have a certain level of
modesty.
So that's like the there shouldbe a dress code to get into the
church, and like you don't wantto create that, uh, where you
have an environment where it'slike a legalistic thing at the
same time.
as a woman, you want to um um,Be mindful of your appearance.
You want to be dressed inholiness and not outward
adornings, but the inward partof the heart.
(25:49):
That's how you make yourselfbeautiful.
But there's probably a balancethere, Wouldn't you say, Holland
, that there's a balance thereof what it means to not
intentionally make peoplestumble because you're dressing
the way you're dressing to getattention, but you're dressing
the way you're dressing becausethat's comfortable or whatever,
(26:09):
and you're trying to honor theLord and everything you do.
Honor the Lord.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
Yes, yeah, I think both there.
I think there's responsibilityon both sides, and I think that
view gets some hate, um, from uh, from both sides.
You know men who want to sayput all the blame on women for
dressing a certain way, or womenwho are just like men, need to
control themselves and gougetheir eyes out if they're having
(26:33):
a problem, and I think, inreality, you know the Matthew
five.
Okay, uh, it's both, though Ithink that to me it's simple
Women should dress with modestyand respectable apparel that's
what the Bible says and menshould practice self-control,
(26:53):
and both should be seeking tohonor the Lord with their
thoughts and their bodies.
Exactly, yeah, that might beoverly simple right.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
And so then, what does that mean when people have
different opinions on what?
Speaker 4 (27:05):
modesty is.
Well, I would also say, likehow you worded what came.
You know someone saying, Pablo,you need to control what your
wife is wearing, because it'smaking me stumble that right
there, like I don't know ifthat's exactly, if that's
exactly how it was worded.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
I think, correct me if I'm wrong one of the times
and this is what really irked meis he even went to say I didn't
lust after her, but I had to bemindful of where my eyes went.
Well, you should always have tobe mindful of where your eyes
went.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
No matter what like.
And again, it's not like I'mshowing up in crop tops.
I'm not showing up witheverything hanging out.
Everyone else in the churchsees what I wear.
Compared to how I dressed inhigh school college, I'm
dressing very modest.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Okay, so here's where , like my I don't know this
might tell me what you think.
That's it, let her roll.
One, I think you can.
You know, we can look back andgo hey, I'm not who I used to be
, but that's never really whatwe're supposed to compare
ourselves to.
We should compare ourselves tothe standard of Scripture, not
necessarily a past thing I getwhat you're saying but just in
general.
Two, it may you know, like Idon't know the intention of the
(28:18):
person who reached out, andmaybe they really had sincere
intentions of like I'm seekingthe holiness of this church,
intentions of like I'm seekingthe holiness of this church, and
I think you know pablo, thismight be an area to you know, I
think the way it's, if that'show it's worded like control,
what, I'm like one of them wasworded that way and it was like
I was stunned because, like Isaid, my shirt came up to my
(28:40):
collarbone yeah but,
Speaker 2 (28:42):
they were able to see that my breasts were on the
larger side and it caused themto stumble.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Yeah.
So I'm like I don't know what Iwant to do, so that one was
very invalid for that reason.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
I think the other one was also invalid.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
I had a jacket on.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
That was unzipped, but there was again, unless I'm
in a turtleneck.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Okay so.
In the middle of summer thatperson's intention was one that
they kind of put it in a waywhere it's like, well, you allow
your wife to do or not doreflects your leadership in a
way which I agreed with.
Yeah.
And he basically said you know,if we were to pull 100 men in
(29:23):
the church, I would say 90% ofthem would say that they have
lusted because of something yourwife wore, whatever.
And what I told him was is hey,I hear you out.
I see that it might be an issue, but the problem is, if we
follow that thought all the wayto the end, let's just go back
to wearing full fit, full bodycoverings and just eyes showing,
(29:46):
and you know I'll put somesunglasses on because somebody
might stumble if they see hereyes.
That's right, and you know wemight have to cut this part out.
But it reminds me of a memewhere is this live right now?
no, okay, good, I don't think soall right, there's a guy and
like they're, they're indian orsomething pakistani, and uh, I
(30:07):
don't know.
They go to like a dance andthen he's like bro, did you see
her ankles?
well, we went to croatia andthere's like this, these stairs
that they had to put cement on,and it was because men would
stand there to just get aglimpse of women's ankles yeah
and because that's all theycould see and all the skin that
was so the point being is likeif you follow that I might
(30:29):
stumble because of what she'swearing, then we shouldn't even
be seeing any part of a woman'sbody, cause, who knows, there
might be one brother out of athousand that's going to stumble
because they saw a pinky.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
Man, so I?
There's some people, I think,who are upset at the idea that
even us, as men, are talkingabout this topic.
So I disagree with that I thinkyou know, like, oh, men
shouldn't police what women wear.
Okay, fine, police, but like, asa community, we should all be
(31:04):
able to speak into each other'slives as the family of Jesus.
And so, like I think womenshould you know, when it comes
to like, if there's somethingI'm doing that's causing women
in the church to stumble in someway, you know, even if it's
like a different way, the way Ispeak is whatever that you know.
Like, I want to know that, likewe should.
I think we should have thesekinds of conversations, how I
guess what I was getting atearlier is like, how it's worded
, you know you could argue about, but like I think that is true,
(31:30):
we should be able to haveconversations about this kind of
stuff with each other.
But at the same time, I think,like I agree with you and that
you can go so far on trying tolike police, yeah, police that
it's like you know you're nowyou, now you're being, um, it's
getting uh, legalistic, or it'sgetting beyond what's reasonable
(31:51):
or something beyond whatscripture says is modest and
respectful, I guess what I, Iwill, I love the fact that he
came to you.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
That's, I mean honestly like that.
We should celebrate that aspectand sent and, as opposed to
just have you seen what brie'swearing, like I celebrate that.
That's really great to me, um.
And then the next part of thatis the fact that you heard him
out like there's so much here,and this is why christianity is
so great, because you're gonnahave people with different
(32:22):
levels of comfort levels and allsorts of things, and that's why
colossians 3 bear with oneanother, forgive one another,
like as much as up to you, liveat peace with everyone.
You're, you're, you're.
There's aspects of this whereyou are wanting to honor the
person.
At the same time, you knowwho's who gets to be the
(32:42):
ultimate, you know, say,authority on this issue.
You know, ultimately, it shouldbe in your house.
If you feel comfortable with it,and you are, your wife is
honoring you by the way she isdressing then then then it's
great, but I do think it's wiseto at least hear him out,
consider, pray, and then go Lord, how are you leading me?
(33:03):
And then, and then you know,when you look at God's word,
god's spirit, god's people, Ithink that's an okay thing for
him to bring up.
And then, as you're doing, Ican't think of one time where I
felt like I've been, like I'd belike stop wearing sweatpants.
I'm like that's where.
I'm like with you.
I'm like go feminine, I needmore feminine.
That's what.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
I was going to bring up.
Pastor Plex said stop showingup to church in sweatpants and a
hoodie.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
Yeah, so just to give you a glimpse of how I dress.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Yeah, like I'm like.
Yeah, you can't like listen.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
I did.
I told her I was like that'shard, I know you're you're going
to give them to ministry.
I think it's awesome, but itlooks not that you want to look
like another dude, because Iwant you to express your
femininity in what you wear.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
That's kind of where I was going with that, but I
will say that this continuouslyhappening is what pushed me into
wearing Dude the sweatpants?
Yes, and it's what pushed meinto.
At 30, I'm going to get abreast reduction and like it's
shaped the way, I do everythingBecause to me it's like but like
that comment from too thatthere's an element of that.
Speaker 4 (34:05):
that's like you need to repent.
You know like you're that's youneed to possess some
self-control and need topractice some repentance.
Yeah that's not yeah.
So I think and I will say like.
I feel like we're painting himin a bad light and and I know he
had good intentions and he wasrepentful of it- yeah, because
(34:27):
like it's not easy for a guy tocome to you and tell you like
hey, bro, I listed after yourwife you know right, and so I'm
not trying to paint him in a badlight, I'm trying to like think
of every ass, every componentyeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
yeah, um and so and so, like I said this, so he, we
had a conversation one time andmaybe like a month or two later
he kind of brought, brought itup again.
And then that's when I told him, like you know, I'll, I'll talk
to her, but you know, there's,there's only we can only go so
far in this issue.
And and Bree told me she waslike honestly, I just don't have
(34:57):
a lot of clothing Like this iswhat I have.
If, if you want me to change itlike we just need to buy
something different.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
And, like I said, like depending especially with
someone of pablo's height.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
I can look in the mirror and there's no cleavage
shown.
Yeah, if you're taller than me,you can see.
I didn't even think about thatcleavage huh.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
So literally, with a woman of my size top, you
literally have to wear somethingto your collarbone, which we
all know how texas he is.
That's very uncomfortable.
Yeah, and even then I've hadsomeone come because I was
wearing a t-shirt to mycollarbone that you could tell.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
I had a line.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
So it's like, no matter what I do, there will be
someone who stumbles and I've Idon't feel conviction in the way
I dress.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Pablo doesn't seem to have an issue in the way I
dress.
He will speak up.
If I wore leggings a couple ofdays ago and he caught someone
looking, he's like stop wearingleggings around here.
So it's like he will speak upwhen it's he feels like it's
necessary.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
My frustration came with well, I feel bad that I
said something about the sweatsthen, Cause I don't want you to
get in the other way of, likeyou know.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
I mean I think it's good, I like I went and I bought
jeans but also I'm in a weirdposition now that I'm pregnant,
like I don't fit in my jeans.
I don't want to wear jeans.
I'm leggings or sweatpants, andthen it's man yeah, so it goes
a lot deeper, and men don'tthink about that.
They would rather be like, hey,can you control this?
(36:18):
Instead of let me look inward.
And why am I focused on this inchurch, right, yeah, instead of
what's being preached?
Speaker 4 (36:26):
like the main thing is like man, there's some
repentance that needs to happenfrom him.
I'm just saying in general, Idon't think that we should just
be like, oh, no one ever has anyright to tell me.
I do think, even though it'suncomfortable and weird and
we're going to get it wrong,it's good to encourage each
other toward holiness in everyaspect of life.
(36:46):
But I think you're totallyright and that there's so many
things that guys don't thinkabout and realize I don't know.
Uh, and I guess I'm just sayingthere's, I think there's
responsibility on both sides,right and it's you know and I
think in over sexualized cultureyou're now thinking about a
breast reduction, like that'slike uh it's not the only reason
, but it has played a big partthat to me is like oh sad
Speaker 1 (37:09):
yeah like, uh, like she's gonna have to go under a
knife for a doctor to cut her tomake her look like something
that the world could accept, andI, that I have a problem like
that makes me sad for you.
Like, oh gosh, like that's likethe fact that we have such a
sexualized culture that you'renot even trying to kind of go
that route.
And now here you are.
So, anyway, I'm sorry, that'slike that's not good.
(37:35):
I feel really bad, that's hard,and um, I want you to know that
we are grateful for who you areand I honor every way that you
dress, and I want you to knowthat, um, the Lord, I think,
sees you and thinks you'rebeautiful and, um, I'm just
great.
I mean, I've never even thoughtabout that until you brought up
(37:56):
breasts.
Like I wasn't even thinking,like she's got big boobs.
I like just never even crossedmy mind, and so I think that's
where it's like a weird reality.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
You know what?
Speaker 1 (38:05):
I mean so, um, in a sexualized culture and people
have been sexualized, then theysee everything as sexualized,
and so I'm sorry that you'redealing with that response that
makes you want to think I needto change my body to fit in this
world.
So because probably people withno boobs well, I mean, you know
, or less boobs aren't thinkingabout that at all, yeah, yeah,
(38:27):
um, okay, well, thanks forsharing that, that's powerful.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
Um, any other thoughts, pastor Holland?
Um, man, I'm, I'm with you on,just like I don't know it turned
this way, but I'm just likeyou're.
God gave you your body and, uh,you don't have to worry about
what anyone else that, likeGod's blessed you with a husband
and you follow his lead andwhatever he says, you know it's
like, hey, here's what, here'sthe way we're going to go on
(38:59):
this.
Like you don't have to worryabout pleasing anyone else but
that man and the Lord JesusChrist, and I'm just grateful
for you as a sister in Christand, yeah, wow.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
All right, hey, thanks so much for watching.
If you want to text in anyquestions, we will tackle the
hard ones here.
Text us in it at 737-231-0605or go to pastorplekcom.
We would love to hear from you,from our house to yours.
Have an awesome week of worship.
back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec, andwe are talking about a hot
button issue that just hit theset and, uh, adrian is going to
just share.
Adrian is going to go.
Before she goes, just tell ushow you grew up nope, she
doesn't want to share that butuh, brie has a dilemma, a
question that she just broughtup and it infused so much um
(00:30):
fire on in the studio here thatwe need to talk about it that's
probably a good thing.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
This person doesn't listen to the podcast I was just
going to ask if they don't.
I know they don't well, Iquestion.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Oh, the hug question is is it okay to hug the
opposite sex like aforward-facing?
Hug a front hug instead of aside hug.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Chest to chest, yeah, and I think that's dependent
upon the person.
And the reason I'd say that is,if you're hugging and you're
just looking to feel boobs, thenthat probably isn't the best
move, uh, but if, but if you'rehugging and you're just there's
a way to hug where you're notlike smashing up against the
person, um, and there's a way toside hugs are great, you know,
(01:14):
and maybe you know as the the,the closer, the friendship or
whatever.
It just depends on on whereyou're at, um with the
connection.
But, yeah, so for me personally, I kind of, I kind of kind of
gauge the comfort level of theother person and I, if I've just
met them, I kind of go sidehugging cause I don't want to be
weird about it.
Uh, if, like, if they just leanin for, uh, you know cause
(01:35):
they're like, oh, it's so greatto see I haven't seen you, or
whatever, but I I hug them.
And you know we have differentbackgrounds.
We've got Latin culture here,where I have some sweet grandmas
that will launch a massive kisson my cheek and it's the best.
I think that's super sweet.
And then I've got very, youknow, the handshakers, you know.
(01:55):
So you've, I kind of don't wantto break a barrier that
somebody is uncomfortable with,and so I'm sort of trying to
manage that, um, but I do wantto show affection in a brotherly
way, um, and I think that'simportant to do.
I think it's important toinitiate affection, uh, because,
you know, greet one anotherwith a holy kiss is, I think, an
(02:16):
imperative that you have toculturally define of what it is
to show affection in a physicalway.
That is not weird.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, what do you think there,pastor Holland?
Speaker 4 (02:29):
Yeah, I think this.
So holy kiss.
Four commands in the NewTestament Romans 16, 16,.
Greet one another with a holykiss.
First, Corinthians 16, 20,greet one another with a holy
kiss.
Second, Corinthians 13, 12,greet one another with a holy
kiss.
First Thessalonians 5, 26,.
Greet all one another with aholy kiss.
2 Corinthians 13, 12, greet oneanother with a holy kiss.
1 Thessalonians 5, 26,.
Greet all the brothers with aholy kiss.
(02:49):
Four times in the New Testament.
Right, and like it sounds funny, but I feel convicted about
this.
I'm like what are we doing withhandshakes, bro?
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Am I sinning?
Speaker 4 (03:02):
Get that out the door .
Am I Like I don't kiss anyoneexcept my wife and kids on
Sunday?
Yeah, at my church, me either,and you know, a hug.
I think you repent, so youcould go well, this is a
principle.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
A couple grandmas I give a kiss back to whenever
they give me the yeah, Good foryou.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
Yeah, you, you could go take this on.
You know, in that culture aholy kiss was an actual kiss.
You know, in ours the principleof a holy kiss is like a hug,
but it kind of feels like acop-out.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
And I wonder if we need to initiate some holy
kissing.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
I mean, is there like a reformation that needs to
happen here, bringing back theholy kiss?
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Let me tell you this when I was in Iraq, obviously I
was a Christian, but I was withMuslims everywhere.
Right, I would sneak into ahouse and it was like my
informant.
So I'd go in the dead of thenight, wake them up, scare the
absolute crap out of them andyou've got like seven guys in
the room with machine guns intheir house.
But then they would bring outthe tea and they would greet me
(04:02):
with a holy kiss.
Now, when I greeted them, I waswearing my helmet and nods, and
it was you know the awkwardwhere you drill something like
headbutt somebody.
I mean, I took these guys outleft and right, not meaning to,
but because they went full inholy kiss and I'm not used to it
.
I'm not, and you know theirbeards all over my face.
It was totally the weirdestthing.
However, once I got used to it,I appreciated the closeness I
(04:26):
felt to my informants.
It made me feel closer to them.
Yeah, as wild as that may seem,and so I do think there is
something powerful to it.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
I hear that, okay, so one, okay, the full, the front
hug thing and like the problemthere, like someone's trying to
avoid, like temptation, becauseof a hug which I think is
evidence of just like man, it ishard for us to imagine any kind
of physical touch that's notsexual Right and so which makes
(04:58):
you go?
Well, we definitely don't needto be kissing each other, unless
maybe the answer is to like.
Yeah, kissing each other, unlessmaybe the answer is to like
yeah, maybe what we needactually is to be more
intentional about healthy,non-sexual physical affection in
a familial type of way, andthat might help, like actually
break down the oversexualization and renormalize
(05:21):
non-sexual, yeah, physical.
I don't know, maybe the answerhere.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
I feel like this, the Maybe the answer here how did
we get here?
I feel like the question Iwould like to ask is how did we
get here?
So I've done some travel aroundthe world and when I had some
like not Russian, but just westof Russia friendships like
Slovenian or whatever, and likeI got kisses on the cheek from
those dudes and again it was.
I was not prepared for that andit was in an American setting,
(05:48):
but they were totally that wastheir culture and I was like I
guess we're doing this.
You know it was, I was not, andokay.
And then also when I was inAfrica, in in Tanzania, um, I
was walking along the beach andthis Tanzanian man starts
holding my hand.
Oh yeah, hold hands everywhereand I was like dying a thousand
deaths and I couldn't stoptalking.
(06:09):
I'd be like, well, I guesswe're holding hands now.
This is, you know, notsomething we do, and I was so
weirded out by it that I talkedabout the whole time.
But I hung in there because Iwas like I'm not going to be
weird, I'm going to hang inthere on this whole hand-holding
thing, but it was verydifficult because it was so
abnormal, and I think that'spart of me wonders.
(06:30):
is it a British and Americanthing where we've
over-sexualized everything andso we've?
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
What is it?
My basic theory on pretty muchevery problem that exists in all
societies, everywhere, is likethe fathers, it just always goes
back to your father and so likeI think that's just like.
That's somehow it's related tothat of fathers not showing
affection to their families andtheir children not showing
(06:57):
affection to their wife, notshowing loving fatherly
affection to their children, notencouraging an environment of
loving affection in the home.
The father's failure of that hasmade us all just kind of like
you know um, emotionalaffectionate orphans in a sense
where we just don't know how todo this, well mixed with, like,
(07:18):
the prevalence of pornographyand may you know takes that like
we don't know how to doaffection, and then we see this
overemphasis on sexual stuff,with all the pornography and all
the and takes that like wedon't know how to do affection,
and then we see thisoveremphasis on sexual stuff
with all the pornography and allthe overly sexualized media and
stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
I think that combo probably is what brought us to
where we are yeah, because whenI think about what people wear,
when you go to tropicalcountries or you go to Africa,
they're not wearing much.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
It's not like they know.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
It's not like they have this sense of like modesty,
they're just like this is whatyou do, is what you wear like
I'm showing my shoulders.
I don't care like that kind ofthing is like a normalized part
of culture, right?
Speaker 4 (07:57):
yeah, I see what you're saying.
So I, just because somethinghappens somewhere doesn't
necessarily mean it's the rightthing, absolutely sure.
So you do have a point, right.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Right, it's like but in that culture no one's
thinking, whoa, I, I'm like,it's not sexualized, it's just
whatever.
Now again, yeah to your point.
Just because it's in anothercountry doesn't make it right,
uh, but that does bring us whatis right, yeah and and it may be
the existence of, you know anequal and opposite problem of
(08:26):
being so familiar.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
I'm not saying I don't have any particular place
in mind.
I'm just saying it's possiblefor a culture where the
normalization of not wearingmuch clothing and there's
supposed to be a sense ofdignity that's protected by
modesty that you could lose insome cultures as well.
So, there's a lot of ways youcan go wrong with it.
(08:49):
Um, I mean, that's how Brazilis How's Brazil?
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Yeah, like you go to the beach, it's like G strings
everywhere.
Okay, and that's just the norm,right.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
That's that seems like.
Is that over-sexualization, oris that people being normal?
That's the hard part to wrapyour head around.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Yeah, I think it probably.
I mean I don't know the historyof it, but I feel like it began
as just the norm, yeah, but nowit's to a point where, like
it's so, everything is soover-sexualized, and it's part
of my story is that, like mysexuality was opened up when I
was probably like five or six,that like my sexuality was
opened up when I was probablylike five or six, oh, wow, and
that was just, I guess, the norm.
(09:26):
You know, it's so in your faceand everywhere, that it's just
what happens.
And so I think to your point,like, just because it happens
there and that's the norm, itdoesn't make it good or right.
And I was going to say too, Idefinitely agree with it being
something that starts withfathers, Because for myself, you
(09:48):
know, I had a dad who wouldshow affection, like you know, a
hug and sometimes like you knowa full hug, but it wasn't like
a whole lot to where, like itjust wasn't a lot, you know.
And so, growing up, like I neverhugged no other dudes, and even
up until coming to this churchhugging a dude, especially like
chest to chest, I'm not gonnalie and I'm gonna say it felt
(10:09):
gay.
But you guys know, zach bice,yeah, that dude hugs, hugs and
break your back.
And now, after being at thischurch for so long and having
dudes tell me I love you, you,it's the norm to me.
I'll hug every guy I meet nowbecause I'm like bro, that's
just the way you do it and, toyour point, it makes me feel
(10:32):
really close to them.
And so, even though it's kindof funny talking about a
brotherly kiss, I'm like dude,imagine how much closer we would
feel to each other if westarted greeting with a
brotherly kiss.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
I'm saying I'm feeling the Lord's stirring
something right now.
It's funny, but there's so muchtruth behind it.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
It's literally commanded four times in the New
Testament.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Does that not stick with you guys.
No listen, I'm with you.
So I kissed my dad on the lipswhen I was a teenager and I
didn't even think anything of itand it was just like what you
did and I don't know.
I don't know if that is good,bad or different.
I was waiting to see if Pablowas going to say gay or not.
I feel bad now.
I don't know, it was just mydad, and so I was just like
that's just what you did.
(11:19):
I.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
I feel so bad because my grandpa has mastered the
brotherly kiss Like he will gogreet, you say goodbye, anyone
doesn't matter who you are, andhe's immediately going for the
lips.
And every time you have tododge, but now I feel bad for
dodging him.
Yeah, and you know it's wild.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
My mom is that way, Like I don't know if she's
kissed you.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Yeah, she's kissed Grayson right on the lips and he
was like— Like a decade ago.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
Yeah, and he was not ready for that one.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
And that's just my—I grew up like that, and so when I
came to Christian culture inthe late 90s and I realized oh,
I'm the weird one I didn'trealize that I had a whole bunch
of things that were not normaland I think I crossed everyone's
physical boundary lines.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
But then you read the Bible, yeah, and then I was
like maybe.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
I'm doing it right, wow, look at that Anyway.
But but now to think aboutkissing a dude like that's been
conditioned in me.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, that's weird.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Now thankfully, now I kiss my sons.
I don't kiss them on the lipslike my dad did, but I kiss them
on their face, their head,their you know all over.
I don't mind that, Um, and so Ithink that's something we
probably need to institute moreyeah, institute like require for
membership Institute is likeofficial on stage Brotherly kiss
(12:40):
.
Let's go we're now going to doa man I meet and greet time
About to get a whole lot moreJuicy, Uncomfortable for some
people.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
Oh man, Come on somebody I know we're like, I
mean we're being silly and stuffbut I really am thinking about
this like.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
But to Pablo's point, the amount of I love you's I
hear at our church.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
I'm really encouraged .
That's healthy, that's so good.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Like dudes say I love you, I don't know if women are
doing that, which is kind ofinteresting I don't think we
like you.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
I notice men will say it to someone they just met.
I think women you have to havea much more intimate friendship
with, to just say it unless theycome to you with like a crisis,
like if I'm on the person andsomeone comes to me the crisis,
I always say, like, say, like Ilove you, like you're, you know
we're here for you, even if Idon't know them.
But if it's just like inpassing or hey, nice to meet you
(13:29):
, like I never.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yeah, it is.
I think we do say.
The men are saying I love youleft, and right All right, check
this out.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
This is from some random website.
Okay, here we go.
Random website which we know isgoing to give gospel truth.
Here we go.
It says the usualinterpretation is that the holy
kiss itself is not important.
The greeting is the thing we'retold.
It doesn't really matter howyou do it.
Back then it was a holy kiss.
Today it's a handshake.
Same thing.
Now that seems right until youthink about it.
A kiss is not the same thing asa handshake.
(14:00):
Just ask any teenager.
In the Bible, the holy kiss wasa sign of love, respect,
friendship and honor.
It was a mark of innocentaffection.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
That's like that.
Innocent affection is what weare like deprived of.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
We've seen numerous examples of this sort of kiss in
the Bible.
Jacob kissed his father Genesis27.
Laban kissed Joseph Genesis 29.
Esau kissed Jacob Genesis 33.
Joseph kissed his brothersGenesis 45.
Aaron kissed Moses, exodus 4.
Moses kissed Jethro Exodus 18.
Naomi kissed Ruth and OrpahRuth.
1.
David kissed Jonathan.
(14:35):
1 Samuel 20.
The father kissed the prodigalson, luke 15.
That's a lot of kissing.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
The LGBTQ crowd is going to have a field day with
this one lot of kissing.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
The lgbtq crowd is gonna have a field day with this
one.
Well, but I think that's.
Let's see.
The reason why they could, theywould, is because they're.
What they're saying is that allkissing these are not kisses,
that's based on a sexual right.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
All kissing is sexual right, so I.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
what I love about that is those are familial
kisses and so, as christians,since we're brothers and sisters
in christ, that would be anappropriate response.
Yeah, but we got to change theculture.
Man, I think we're at a goodstart with the I love you's, and
hugs.
(15:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
But man, I don't know , this might be a reach, but I
think it.
I don't know you can somehowtie this to how separated people
are as a whole, like isolated.
You know, in a community likewe, we've lived at places where
we didn't.
We lived there for like twoyears and we didn't know our
(15:41):
next door neighbor, right, and Ithink I don't know you could
somehow tie it to that whereit's like we're so afraid of
something that feels I don'tknow, uncommon or unnatural,
right like going to yourneighbor, introducing yourself,
getting to know them, and youknow I don't know well.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
So let's go back to the original question, which was
our like, uh, frontal hugs.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
I'm like what was the original?
Speaker 1 (16:05):
question yeah so, and the reason you you brought it
up earlier like if you've gotlarge breasts, it's going to be
like, oh, it's going to be anawkward hug, right, or it could
be is that kind of what we weresaying earlier?
Speaker 2 (16:18):
well, it's like almost impossible to not touch
them at all right, and so whatdo you do then?
Speaker 1 (16:26):
um like, so what's your plan?
Or do you even think about it,or do you think about it now?
Speaker 2 (16:30):
I think about it now because it was a guy that
brought it up to me.
So now I'm like, oh, surelyevery guy thinks this way.
So now, when a guy goes in fora front hug, I'm like, why is he
going in for a front hug?
Is he thinking about my breath,like, do I give him a front hug
?
Do I, like, give them theawkward?
Oh, I'm only gonna do a side,like I'm overthinking it now to
the point where I will neverinitiate a hug with another man
(16:51):
that's not my husband whoa man,the women come up like these
ultimatums at the end of likethese things, like all right,
I'm tired of feeling like I'm inthe wrong okay, yeah, um, all
right it's good, so I'm justlike I just won't go there.
Okay, fair enough, fair enoughall right, all right.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
I have seen women, when they're in the front, hug
awkward moment.
They do the super lean, justarms.
They'll lean their body over,so their boobs go down and then
they connect up here it's allshoulders I've seen that.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Again, depending on the size of your breast.
There's no Okay, fair enough,yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
You might like an animal neck hug.
Okay, good point.
Yeah, I think that is a dilemma.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
All right, there's no command in the Bible to hug
anyone Right, so I don't know.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
I mean, there's one to kiss there is one to give a
holy kiss.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
But no commands for hugs, but if you're struggling
with a hug.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
you're going to struggle with a kiss?
I don't know.
I don't know Really.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
A kiss on the cheek Hug equals boobs.
Kiss is just, you know, germs.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
I think when there's something that's not you know,
it's a matter of conscience andthere's freedom.
There's liberty to set up rulesfor yourself or for other
people.
Where you're not violating yourown conscience and feel like
you're not doing something wrong, You're allowed to do that.
We can't expect other people,we can't put those rules on
(18:23):
other people, but for youpersonally, you're like I'm just
going to give high fivesbecause that's what I'm
comfortable with.
Everyone can kind of manage andgovern themselves in that way,
I think.
But I think the underlyingissue there is just the
over-sexualization and the factthat we can't have normal
brotherly affection,brotherly-sisterly affection
(18:45):
with each other without kind oftaking it too far.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
This just in.
We had a live texter from ourstudio audience.
It says this hey, listen,someone like me and that me is
someone who has gay desires isscrewed without culturally
accepted physical affection.
Touch starved Would be nice ifit was normalized more, maybe
even help someone in mysituation to normalize male
(19:09):
affection.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
Wait, so saying that what would be helpful was more
male affection to normalize it,so it wouldn't become this like
ooh exciting, whatever, that'swhat.
I'm saying I think if we workmore at normalizing innocent
(19:32):
affection, it might decrease theamount of like weirdness that
some people feel about stufflike a front hug or you know,
even like same-sex desire stuff,when you're like, oh actually
like there's a sinful desire,but it's also like I just want
affection, like not sexualaffection, but just like
(19:52):
friendship, community touch, ahug, you know, a brotherly kiss,
I don't know, does that makesense?
It totally makes sense.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
I feel like sure, I just like how do you is that
where, like at EastsideCommunity Church, you're going
to have like kiss your neighborday?
I mean, like what?
Speaker 4 (20:06):
how do you institute Kiss your neighbor day?
Is that what you said?
Speaker 1 (20:11):
neighbor day.
I mean like what, how do youkiss your neighbor day?
I mean like, how do younormalize?
Like what's the process tonormalize?
Speaker 4 (20:16):
be the change you want to be the change you want
to see in the world you just gotto start, you know with like a
small group of people who agreewith you that like all right,
and we're just going to do thisand have the bible verse
memorized.
And we're just going to do thisand like other people are
memorized and we're just gonnado this, and like other people
are gonna see it and it's justgonna like catch on, and at some
point you probably got to kindof teach through it.
(20:36):
Actually, yeah, I don't know ifyou can.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
But seriously, though , like it's, it's literally.
This might seem like a race,like I said, but going and
introducing yourself to yourneighbors, having them over for
dinner, sharing real lifeexperiences that's not common oh
what sorry.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
That's not common, but the more you do it, the less
awkward it feels sure, 100 itbecomes a way of life right,
like I said, when I was in iraqkissing, whenever I greeted my
informant, I kissed him everysingle time, every single.
It was like hundreds of kissesuh, on you know scraggly beards,
uh, which, just even thinkingabout now, whenever I hug a dude
(21:15):
and we touch beards, I'm likeyou get flashbacks I don't know.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Here's your challenge .
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Kiss right now on camera.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
I'm not going to put you on pressure on camera.
I don't think that's good topress your conscience in that
way, but at some point I wantyou to just surprise me with a
holy kiss, alright.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
I'll surprise the holy kiss.
The problem is what if you messup and the next thing you know
you're kissing on the lips, andthen it's really weird like it's
nightmarish right.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
As long as you say no homo afterwards, you're good.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Wow, alright, yeah, okay, I accept that challenge.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Alright, just I mean, everybody makes mistakes,
nobody's perfect you can't, ohman.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
So what's weird about this?
I feel like you know how you'rehot under the collar.
It's so weird to even thinkabout.
You feel like embarrassed rightnow.
It's weird to me, so what's theright word?
Speaker 4 (22:23):
weird.
Anyway, paul felt that withapostolic authority he could
command this.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
That is wild.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
Four times in the New Testament and I just can't stop
thinking about it that there'sgot to be something.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
there Is this where you say no homo at the end.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Yeah, okay, all, right, may start there.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah, okay, yeah, all right, okay, I'm going to pause
on that direction.
I'm going to go back to ouroriginal boob hugging.
All right, that's way morecomfortable to talk about than
kissing um.
So what other like experiences?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
have you had breathe that have been uncomf like when
it comes to you?
Speaker 4 (23:03):
we started saying that that's way more awkward
than talking about dudes givingeach other a holy kiss.
You ever hear of skit guys no.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Oh, yeah, he says uncomf in one of the like you
know when you touch handspraying.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
That makes me feel embarrassed is when I hear that
All right, go ahead so give meyour uncomfortableness other
uncomfortable issues.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Yeah, I think the biggest one, even more than the
hugging, was having men reachout to pablo and tell him you
need to control what your wifewears to church, because it is
causing me to stumble oh goshI'm so glad he doesn't listen to
the.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Maybe I should send it to him actually.
Okay, okay, so hold on it'salso not him.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
This is not a one-time thing.
It's been at multiple churchesno listen, we've had multiple
people.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
So um, I'm wearing, I don't know how tight these
jeans are.
Would you consider these tightjeans tight?
Speaker 2 (23:52):
A little tight.
They're a little tight for menjeans, all right.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Sorry, okay, they're a little tight.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
All right, so you get the flares.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Those are coming back in.
They're guess jeans this tightand they were turquoise and she
was on stage singing and like aguy came up to grayson it was
like rec center days, uh, like10 years plus ago, and he's like
, hey, you need to, can't havethat girl on stage anymore, she
needs to wear something else.
Because those jeans are toosexualized and they're just like
green jeans.
(24:25):
They weren't that tight, theywere just normal.
And I was, and I and I didn'teven notice that she was wearing
, like you know, as a personworshiping that morning, I
didn't even see the jeans.
You know, it was just like Idon't know.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
You were focused on worshiping, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
So I think, no matter what, something could get you
spun up and we need to it's theresponsibility of probably both
parties.
You don't want to be over, youdon't want to come with lingerie
but at the same time, like atsome point, like you need to be
able to control, uh, what you'reum, how you're viewing a woman,
(25:02):
right, like that's on you to dothat, however, uh.
So so I think this is I've I'vehad always talked about this.
I've had multiple times peoplehave said hey, shouldn't you
tell the women at church to bemore modest?
And that issue will, becausewhat you're saying is, before
(25:29):
you're allowed to worship, youhave to have a certain level of
modesty.
So that's like the there shouldbe a dress code to get into the
church, and like you don't wantto create that, uh, where you
have an environment where it'slike a legalistic thing at the
same time.
as a woman, you want to um um,Be mindful of your appearance.
You want to be dressed inholiness and not outward
adornings, but the inward partof the heart.
(25:49):
That's how you make yourselfbeautiful.
But there's probably a balancethere, Wouldn't you say, Holland
, that there's a balance thereof what it means to not
intentionally make peoplestumble because you're dressing
the way you're dressing to getattention, but you're dressing
the way you're dressing becausethat's comfortable or whatever,
(26:09):
and you're trying to honor theLord and everything you do.
Honor the Lord.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
Yes, yeah, I think both there.
I think there's responsibilityon both sides, and I think that
view gets some hate, um, from uh, from both sides.
You know men who want to sayput all the blame on women for
dressing a certain way, or womenwho are just like men, need to
control themselves and gougetheir eyes out if they're having
(26:33):
a problem, and I think, inreality, you know the Matthew
five.
Okay, uh, it's both, though Ithink that to me it's simple
Women should dress with modestyand respectable apparel that's
what the Bible says and menshould practice self-control,
(26:53):
and both should be seeking tohonor the Lord with their
thoughts and their bodies.
Exactly, yeah, that might beoverly simple right.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
And so then, what does that mean when people have
different opinions on what?
Speaker 4 (27:05):
modesty is.
Well, I would also say, likehow you worded what came.
You know someone saying, Pablo,you need to control what your
wife is wearing, because it'smaking me stumble that right
there, like I don't know ifthat's exactly, if that's
exactly how it was worded.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
I think, correct me if I'm wrong one of the times
and this is what really irked meis he even went to say I didn't
lust after her, but I had to bemindful of where my eyes went.
Well, you should always have tobe mindful of where your eyes
went.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
No matter what like.
And again, it's not like I'mshowing up in crop tops.
I'm not showing up witheverything hanging out.
Everyone else in the churchsees what I wear.
Compared to how I dressed inhigh school college, I'm
dressing very modest.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Okay, so here's where , like my I don't know this
might tell me what you think.
That's it, let her roll.
One, I think you can.
You know, we can look back andgo hey, I'm not who I used to be
, but that's never really whatwe're supposed to compare
ourselves to.
We should compare ourselves tothe standard of Scripture, not
necessarily a past thing I getwhat you're saying but just in
general.
Two, it may you know, like Idon't know the intention of the
(28:18):
person who reached out, andmaybe they really had sincere
intentions of like I'm seekingthe holiness of this church,
intentions of like I'm seekingthe holiness of this church, and
I think you know pablo, thismight be an area to you know, I
think the way it's, if that'show it's worded like control,
what, I'm like one of them wasworded that way and it was like
I was stunned because, like Isaid, my shirt came up to my
(28:40):
collarbone yeah but,
Speaker 2 (28:42):
they were able to see that my breasts were on the
larger side and it caused themto stumble.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Yeah.
So I'm like I don't know what Iwant to do, so that one was
very invalid for that reason.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
I think the other one was also invalid.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
I had a jacket on.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
That was unzipped, but there was again, unless I'm
in a turtleneck.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Okay so.
In the middle of summer thatperson's intention was one that
they kind of put it in a waywhere it's like, well, you allow
your wife to do or not doreflects your leadership in a
way which I agreed with.
Yeah.
And he basically said you know,if we were to pull 100 men in
(29:23):
the church, I would say 90% ofthem would say that they have
lusted because of something yourwife wore, whatever.
And what I told him was is hey,I hear you out.
I see that it might be an issue, but the problem is, if we
follow that thought all the wayto the end, let's just go back
to wearing full fit, full bodycoverings and just eyes showing,
(29:46):
and you know I'll put somesunglasses on because somebody
might stumble if they see hereyes.
That's right, and you know wemight have to cut this part out.
But it reminds me of a memewhere is this live right now?
no, okay, good, I don't think soall right, there's a guy and
like they're, they're indian orsomething pakistani, and uh, I
(30:07):
don't know.
They go to like a dance andthen he's like bro, did you see
her ankles?
well, we went to croatia andthere's like this, these stairs
that they had to put cement on,and it was because men would
stand there to just get aglimpse of women's ankles yeah
and because that's all theycould see and all the skin that
was so the point being is likeif you follow that I might
(30:29):
stumble because of what she'swearing, then we shouldn't even
be seeing any part of a woman'sbody, cause, who knows, there
might be one brother out of athousand that's going to stumble
because they saw a pinky.
Speaker 4 (30:42):
Man, so I?
There's some people, I think,who are upset at the idea that
even us, as men, are talkingabout this topic.
So I disagree with that I thinkyou know, like, oh, men
shouldn't police what women wear.
Okay, fine, police, but like, asa community, we should all be
(31:04):
able to speak into each other'slives as the family of Jesus.
And so, like I think womenshould you know, when it comes
to like, if there's somethingI'm doing that's causing women
in the church to stumble in someway, you know, even if it's
like a different way, the way Ispeak is whatever that you know.
Like, I want to know that, likewe should.
I think we should have thesekinds of conversations, how I
guess what I was getting atearlier is like, how it's worded
, you know you could argue about, but like I think that is true,
(31:30):
we should be able to haveconversations about this kind of
stuff with each other.
But at the same time, I think,like I agree with you and that
you can go so far on trying tolike police, yeah, police that
it's like you know you're nowyou, now you're being, um, it's
getting uh, legalistic, or it'sgetting beyond what's reasonable
(31:51):
or something beyond whatscripture says is modest and
respectful, I guess what I, Iwill, I love the fact that he
came to you.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
That's, I mean honestly like that.
We should celebrate that aspectand sent and, as opposed to
just have you seen what brie'swearing, like I celebrate that.
That's really great to me, um.
And then the next part of thatis the fact that you heard him
out like there's so much here,and this is why christianity is
so great, because you're gonnahave people with different
(32:22):
levels of comfort levels and allsorts of things, and that's why
colossians 3 bear with oneanother, forgive one another,
like as much as up to you, liveat peace with everyone.
You're, you're, you're.
There's aspects of this whereyou are wanting to honor the
person.
At the same time, you knowwho's who gets to be the
(32:42):
ultimate, you know, say,authority on this issue.
You know, ultimately, it shouldbe in your house.
If you feel comfortable with it,and you are, your wife is
honoring you by the way she isdressing then then then it's
great, but I do think it's wiseto at least hear him out,
consider, pray, and then go Lord, how are you leading me?
(33:03):
And then, and then you know,when you look at God's word,
god's spirit, god's people, Ithink that's an okay thing for
him to bring up.
And then, as you're doing, Ican't think of one time where I
felt like I've been, like I'd belike stop wearing sweatpants.
I'm like that's where.
I'm like with you.
I'm like go feminine, I needmore feminine.
That's what.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
I was going to bring up.
Pastor Plex said stop showingup to church in sweatpants and a
hoodie.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
Yeah, so just to give you a glimpse of how I dress.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Yeah, like I'm like.
Yeah, you can't like listen.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
I did.
I told her I was like that'shard, I know you're you're going
to give them to ministry.
I think it's awesome, but itlooks not that you want to look
like another dude, because Iwant you to express your
femininity in what you wear.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
That's kind of where I was going with that, but I
will say that this continuouslyhappening is what pushed me into
wearing Dude the sweatpants?
Yes, and it's what pushed meinto.
At 30, I'm going to get abreast reduction and like it's
shaped the way, I do everythingBecause to me it's like but like
that comment from too thatthere's an element of that.
Speaker 4 (34:05):
that's like you need to repent.
You know like you're that's youneed to possess some
self-control and need topractice some repentance.
Yeah that's not yeah.
So I think and I will say like.
I feel like we're painting himin a bad light and and I know he
had good intentions and he wasrepentful of it- yeah, because
(34:27):
like it's not easy for a guy tocome to you and tell you like
hey, bro, I listed after yourwife you know right, and so I'm
not trying to paint him in a badlight, I'm trying to like think
of every ass, every componentyeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
yeah, um and so and so, like I said this, so he, we
had a conversation one time andmaybe like a month or two later
he kind of brought, brought itup again.
And then that's when I told him, like you know, I'll, I'll talk
to her, but you know, there's,there's only we can only go so
far in this issue.
And and Bree told me she waslike honestly, I just don't have
(34:57):
a lot of clothing Like this iswhat I have.
If, if you want me to change itlike we just need to buy
something different.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
And, like I said, like depending especially with
someone of pablo's height.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
I can look in the mirror and there's no cleavage
shown.
Yeah, if you're taller than me,you can see.
I didn't even think about thatcleavage huh.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
So literally, with a woman of my size top, you
literally have to wear somethingto your collarbone, which we
all know how texas he is.
That's very uncomfortable.
Yeah, and even then I've hadsomeone come because I was
wearing a t-shirt to mycollarbone that you could tell.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
I had a line.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
So it's like, no matter what I do, there will be
someone who stumbles and I've Idon't feel conviction in the way
I dress.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Pablo doesn't seem to have an issue in the way I
dress.
He will speak up.
If I wore leggings a couple ofdays ago and he caught someone
looking, he's like stop wearingleggings around here.
So it's like he will speak upwhen it's he feels like it's
necessary.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
My frustration came with well, I feel bad that I
said something about the sweatsthen, Cause I don't want you to
get in the other way of, likeyou know.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
I mean I think it's good, I like I went and I bought
jeans but also I'm in a weirdposition now that I'm pregnant,
like I don't fit in my jeans.
I don't want to wear jeans.
I'm leggings or sweatpants, andthen it's man yeah, so it goes
a lot deeper, and men don'tthink about that.
They would rather be like, hey,can you control this?
(36:18):
Instead of let me look inward.
And why am I focused on this inchurch, right, yeah, instead of
what's being preached?
Speaker 4 (36:26):
like the main thing is like man, there's some
repentance that needs to happenfrom him.
I'm just saying in general, Idon't think that we should just
be like, oh, no one ever has anyright to tell me.
I do think, even though it'suncomfortable and weird and
we're going to get it wrong,it's good to encourage each
other toward holiness in everyaspect of life.
(36:46):
But I think you're totallyright and that there's so many
things that guys don't thinkabout and realize I don't know.
Uh, and I guess I'm just sayingthere's, I think there's
responsibility on both sides,right and it's you know and I
think in over sexualized cultureyou're now thinking about a
breast reduction, like that'slike uh it's not the only reason
, but it has played a big partthat to me is like oh sad
Speaker 1 (37:09):
yeah like, uh, like she's gonna have to go under a
knife for a doctor to cut her tomake her look like something
that the world could accept, andI, that I have a problem like
that makes me sad for you.
Like, oh gosh, like that's likethe fact that we have such a
sexualized culture that you'renot even trying to kind of go
that route.
And now here you are.
So, anyway, I'm sorry, that'slike that's not good.
(37:35):
I feel really bad, that's hard,and um, I want you to know that
we are grateful for who you areand I honor every way that you
dress, and I want you to knowthat, um, the Lord, I think,
sees you and thinks you'rebeautiful and, um, I'm just
great.
I mean, I've never even thoughtabout that until you brought up
(37:56):
breasts.
Like I wasn't even thinking,like she's got big boobs.
I like just never even crossedmy mind, and so I think that's
where it's like a weird reality.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
You know what?
Speaker 1 (38:05):
I mean so, um, in a sexualized culture and people
have been sexualized, then theysee everything as sexualized,
and so I'm sorry that you'redealing with that response that
makes you want to think I needto change my body to fit in this
world.
So because probably people withno boobs well, I mean, you know
, or less boobs aren't thinkingabout that at all, yeah, yeah,
(38:27):
um, okay, well, thanks forsharing that, that's powerful.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
Um, any other thoughts, pastor Holland?
Um, man, I'm, I'm with you on,just like I don't know it turned
this way, but I'm just likeyou're.
God gave you your body and, uh,you don't have to worry about
what anyone else that, likeGod's blessed you with a husband
and you follow his lead andwhatever he says, you know it's
like, hey, here's what, here'sthe way we're going to go on
(38:59):
this.
Like you don't have to worryabout pleasing anyone else but
that man and the Lord JesusChrist, and I'm just grateful
for you as a sister in Christand, yeah, wow.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
All right, hey, thanks so much for watching.
If you want to text in anyquestions, we will tackle the
hard ones here.
Text us in it at 737-231-0605or go to pastorplekcom.
We would love to hear from you,from our house to yours.
Have an awesome week of worship.
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