April 17, 2025 • 41 mins
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352: "How could Jesus flip tables without sinning?" This question launches us into an eye-opening exploration of righteous anger versus sinful rage. As we journey through Holy Week, Pastors PleK and Holland examine the provocative moment when Jesus not only drove merchants from the temple but took time to craft his own whip of cords.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec, andjoining me is none other than
pastor holland.
So excited to have you onceagain, so excited to be here
once again.
All right, so let's talk abouta question that we received.
I think I passed it on to you.
Do you still have it?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
uh, let me because it is holy week.
It was about Jesus flippingover tables.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Yeah, Jesus did some flipping over tables during Holy
Week and we really want to getinto that, especially we're
coming up on Easter.
Holy Week, jesus goes into thetemple, flips some tables, gets
the people fired up.
And here is the question Goahead.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Podcast question.
I have a question.
They said Jesus never sinned.
Yep, jesus knocked over tableswhere people were doing trade in
the worship area.
How is that not a sin?
Yeah, what do you think?
I think it's a great question.
Question probably gets asked alot Um, cause he seems like he's
out of control and angry.
(00:59):
But yeah, um, and you know thatdoesn't really fit with the
nice, manicured um superfeminine Jesus, um that is often
presented um for someone to hehe makes his own whip.
Remember, yeah, he doesn't likebuy a whip or find a whip
(01:19):
laying around.
He actually makes his own whip.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
I wonder how long?
How long would it take to makeyour own whip?
He actually makes his own whipfor this.
I wonder how long would it taketo make your own whip.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
You know it doesn't tell us, but it says John 2.15.
So this is John's account ofthe flipping tables.
Is the beginning of hisministry, right?
So he did it twice, actually,john 2.15, making a whip of
cords.
He drove them all out of thetemple with the sheep and oxen
(01:48):
and he poured out the coins ofthe money changers and
overturned their tables.
Yeah, so pretty intense.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
I mean now when he's whipping people with the whip.
How hard is he whipping them?
Doesn't say he whipped anypeople, does it?
Well, he drove them out.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yeah, may have cracked the whip in a
frightening way to drive themout, he was threatening.
I'm just saying, you know, Idon't want to go beyond what it
says.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, sure, but do you think he whipped a cow or a
sheep?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
I mean probably whipped some animals.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
All right, all right.
All right, all right.
So why?
The only verse that pops intomy head is Psalm 69, nine Uh,
and that's where zeal for yourhouse consumes me.
Is that, isn't that right?
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yes, um.
But you also.
You know, in Mark and Mark'saccount, um, it says Jesus was
teaching them and saying to themis it not written my house
shall be called a house ofprayer for all nations, but you
have made it a den of robbers.
So in John he calls it a houseof trade, saying that even just
the trade, the commerce that wasgoing on, was not appropriate.
(02:54):
But also here he says that itwasn't just commerce in general,
it was exploitation or unjust.
He calls them that robbers.
So he says there's somethingimmoral going on in the commerce
itself.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Right, and he's quoting from Isaiah and Jeremiah
.
Yeah, jeremiah 7.
Jeremiah 7 and Isaiah what?
56.
Yes, so, yeah.
So that's, I think, is Isaiah56, the fast.
No, isaiah 56, what is Isaiah56?
(03:27):
Let's take a look real quick.
I think it's like my houseshall be a house of prayer for
all nations.
That's Isaiah 56.
Yeah, where it talks about, youknow, the eunuch will no longer
say I'm a dead tree.
The sojourner, the traveler,all these people will have a
home here, ultimately in myhouse, and my house will be
(03:48):
called the house of prayer forall nations.
And then Jeremiah seven was acon, was a um, uh admonishment,
what's called a rebuke of thepriests of Jeremiah's day who
were giving false hope andturning the, the worship center,
uh, the temple, into a den ofrobbers where they were looking
(04:08):
to make money.
Yeah, so I did appreciate thatconcept there.
But let's get back to why.
It wasn't sin, but ratherfulfillment of prophecy for
Jesus to drive people out of itwith the zeal, for your house
consumes me.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yeah, number one, it's his house.
Um, he's the Lord, right?
You know, if someone is in yourhouse doing something you don't
want them to do, you have everyright to get them out of your
house.
That's right, um, and it's notsimple.
So on, on just a very basiclevel, um, it's his house.
Uh, he calls it his father'shouse, but's equal with God.
It is his house.
(04:46):
He's the Lord of the temple, sohe has the right to drive
people out of there if he wantsto, and it's not sin.
That's just on a basic level ofhe has the right to do that.
Then, beyond that, his the zealthat he had.
You know the verse you broughtup.
Psalm 69 will consume me.
It was his anger at them was arighteous anger.
(05:08):
Our anger, you know we thinkabout, like the passage from
James.
The anger of man does notproduce the righteousness of God
.
Our anger is often sinful, youknow.
It's over for selfish reasonsor because of a lack of patience
or self-control or somethinglike that.
(05:28):
Do you think that there?
Speaker 1 (05:29):
is a place where we could have righteous anger and
we act out in zeal and it not besinful.
And what ways do you think thatwe could do that?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
When you're standing up for someone who's being
mistreated anger is really aprotective emotion, justice,
right.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
It's like, yeah, whenever you're bringing justice
to a situation.
So I feel like when you arebattling evil, let's just say a
police officer that's a believerand he arrests the criminal or
has to fight him with righteousanger to protect the I don't
know the store owner or thewhite or the daughter, or the
sorry the, the mom and herdaughter or whatever that.
(06:12):
That would be a good, goodexample of righteous anger yeah,
righteous anger is.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
You're like what I talk about with my, with my kids
, it's you're mad about theright things, the right amount,
so you're not mad about selfishthings you're mad about, you're
angry the right amount, soyou're not mad about selfish
things You're mad about.
You're angry about things thatare unjust or wrong.
You're seeking to protect, andit's the right amount.
You're not exploding in rageover something that's not a big
(06:39):
deal or whatever.
You know, god is slow to angeris what the scriptures say, and
so he's always angry about theright things, with the
appropriate amount of anger.
And I think we can haverighteous anger as well, and
that's what Jesus had in thetemple.
He had a righteous anger thatcommerce had taken over what was
meant to be a place of prayer.
And not only was it commerce,but they were taking advantage.
(07:03):
They're selling animals so thatpeople could sacrifice, who are
coming from all over, and theydidn't have to bring their
animals.
So it makes sense from abusiness side.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
But then they turn a house of prayer into a business
and they start charging more andmore exploiting people, and the
charging came not necessarilywith the animals but with the
exchanging of coins, which iswhy you know Right those
exchange rates.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
It was a symbolic display of God's judgment
against what was happening, andGod's judgment is righteous and
therefore what Jesus did therewas totally righteous.
It was not a temple tantrum inthe sense of he was immature or
impatient or just frustrated orhaving a bad day or something.
It was thoroughly righteousanger, appropriate for the
(07:51):
situation, that showed God'sheart and character, about
something that was unjust.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Okay.
So I want to get to somethingthat relates to this a little
bit about Israel for today andall that, but I'm going to start
leaning into that with a quotefrom Donald Trump.
President, all right.
So Donald Trump tweeted thisweek let's see if I can find it,
okay.
(08:18):
Here's where he said let's seeif I can find it, hold on, sorry
.
Okay, this is his quote aboutEaster.
Through the pain and sacrificeof Jesus on the cross, we saw
God's boundless love anddevotion to all humanity, and in
(08:42):
that moment of his resurrection, history was forever changed,
with the promise of everlastinglife.
And then he goes on.
As we approach this joyousEaster Sunday, I want to wish
Christians everywhere a happyand very blessed holiday.
He said, america is a nation ofbelievers.
We need God, we want God, andwith his help we will make our
nation stronger, safer, greaterand more prosperous and more
(09:03):
united than ever before.
Thank you and happy Easter.
Okay, then he did do a separatepost to Jewish people.
So, to all the Jewish familiesgathering with friends and loved
ones this week, have a blessedPassover, and may God continue
to watch over the Jewish people,the state of Israel and the
(09:24):
United States of America.
Okay, this is where I think youand I go different directions.
But let's talk about what thosedifferent directions are and
then get into why what Jesus didin the temple sort of was
symbolic of ending that ministry.
It's therefore symbolic ofending God's special
(09:45):
relationship with Israel in AD70.
Would that be a good way tostart?
Yeah, sure, all right, so let'stalk.
So your perspective is that,first off, let's just give
President Trump some credit on agreat, awesome statement about
Easter, yeah, the cross, theresurrection, I mean very yeah,
(10:05):
explicitly Christian gospelmessage Awesome.
Okay, then he then kind of goesback to a Passover thought,
which personally I would nothave a problem with.
But I think to your point.
I love what you said earlierbefore the show.
You were talking about how wewould never see a go.
Have a blessed Ramadan.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Well, like I mean Biden would say that Right,
right.
Last year we got a happy TransDay of Visibility, long message,
more so than anything reallytheologically sound about Easter
and the resurrection.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
But first off, we got to credit whoever wrote that
tweet for Trump.
Way to go, yeah, very good.
Whoever, you are like reallyproud of you.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Maybe he wrote it, but maybe he's got a Christian
team who writes this stuff onhim.
Who knows?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
He is with Billy Graham, and Billy Graham and him
are planning some sort of HolyWeek celebration this week to
kind of culminate with Easter,so there might be something
pretty awesome Anyway.
So yeah, I thought that or umwild.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
so yeah, great theologically sound and
encouraging name, um uh, frankfranklin.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Yeah, he's doing something with franklin graham,
yeah um, but anyway, yeah, I ohyeah he said he's, yeah, billy.
Like you know, billy rose fromthe dead too, I guess?
No, I know it's franklin grahamGraham who he's planning some
sort of really cool Easter thingwith.
And hey, franklin Graham'sprayer at the inauguration was
pretty awesome too.
I thought that was genuinelydistinctively Christian and I
(11:34):
was like way to go, trump.
Now I wouldn't have hired uhwho who was his?
Uh, linda white or no, paulawhite, paula white or no Paula
White?
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Paula White is his office of faith, not on my, like
, high ranking or high ranking,high like solid theology type
people, word of faith,prosperity type teaching yeah,
but hey, you know you get whatyou get and you don't throw a
fit.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I'll take that message that he just gave for
Easter Hallelujah and I don'tknow who on his team helped him
craft it, but it was awesome.
Now just gave for EasterHallelujah and I don't know who
on his team helped him craft it,but it was awesome.
Now shift it to Passover.
He prays that the Jews wouldhave a blessed Passover and
Israel would be blessed.
And you're like no.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Well, here's the thing, when he says you know,
have a blessed Passover.
People who still practiceJudaism to this day are those
who reject Christ as the MessiahRight and therefore practice a
religion that God will not bless.
It is a religion that rejectsJesus Christ.
(12:41):
It is a religion that rejectsJesus Christ, and so I think to
say have a blessed Passover isthe equivalent of have a blessed
Ramadan or a blessed festivalof lights for all the Hindu
people, and it's a holiday.
That, or it's a religion, Imean, that rejects Jesus as
(13:02):
Messiah, and that's problematicfor me.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Yeah, and I am with you on that of why that would
come off weird.
However, here's, I think, thestance that this is, where
probably not a lot oftheologically sound people in
the background were working withhim, but what he's saying is,
like I support Israel and thedispensational view, which you
don't necessarily agree with, isthat God has a specific plan
(13:27):
for the nation, the actualpolitical, sovereign nation of
Israel, to one day be restoredto prominence and that
ultimately they will come tofaith in Jesus when he reveals
himself to them in the last days.
Hence the 144, in revelation,uh, come from the 12 tribes of
israel.
Yeah, so what do we when welook at that and we're we're
(13:49):
kind of wrestling with that.
Your view is no 80, 70.
It's over the fig tree in mark11.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Right with that, jesus curses the fig tree
because all leaves, no, no fruitrepresented the Jewish religion
and no longer in season so thatseason's over, that season's
over, confirmed by thedestruction of the temple in 70
AD.
At that point,dispensationalism would say that
(14:23):
God, like you just said, godstill has a plan for the um
remnant.
Uh well, for particularly likeas a nation, as a nation.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yeah, yeah.
Whereas um say there's a planfor the remnant, but it's
ultimately, they come to faithin Christ.
Yes, they become Christians.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Exactly, yeah, so Romans 11, you know, all Israel
will be saved, um, that's, likeyou know, I feel like pretty
clear whether all meansliterally every last individual
you know who is an ethnicdescendant from Israel.
Right, that is around the lastday of either way.
(15:01):
A bunch of people you know, uh,who have, who are ethnic
Israelites, um, and yet havebeen living in rebellion to
Christ, will be saved, uh,there'll be a widespread
salvation of ethnic Israelites.
Um, I do believe that, but I Ithink where we differ is that
(15:21):
the that you know, israel as anation state still has some
particular plan, um, but whereasI would say god's plan is so,
80, 70, israel ceased to exist.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
In fact, let's just be honest.
Israel ceased to exist inbefore 586, it was what seven,
whenever israel was taken overby Assyria.
That's when Israel, thenorthern kingdom, died out.
Yeah, now the Jews that wouldbe returned to Babylon would be
(15:54):
called Israel as well.
That was a common thing toalternate Judah and Israel as
one or Ephraim.
Yeah, or Ephraim as one, orEphraim yeah, or Ephraim yeah.
So I look at it as like Israel,officially as a state, was
eliminated in what was that?
Now, I don't want to get anyonethrown off.
(16:17):
What year was Israel, thenorthern kingdom, yeah,
destroyed?
Yeah, that was yeah, 721.
So 721 bc they're destroyed, uh, and then 586 is when, finally,
all of judah is hauled off tobabylon.
So what I was looking is likeyou've got all the prophecies of
(16:41):
isaiah, of jeremiah, of the oneday returning, and they had to
spend 70 years in captivityuntil they were brought back,
daniel.
There's a part of this whereI'm like, could it not be a
double fulfillment?
It means, ultimately, thatChrist is going to return, like
(17:02):
the king is going to revealhimself, says hey, what's up?
And he would come for his own.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Here's my pushback on this.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Hold on, but let me explain real quick and then you
can push back.
So the Christians like theChristian view of hey, the
ultimate, the fulfillment wouldbe Jesus coming back for his own
people.
But then another fulfillmentwould be that Israel as a nation
state would show up again.
They wouldn't be saved becausethey were a nation state, but
they'd be ultimately saved byJesus when they came to believe
(17:29):
in the end times.
But there was a distinct planfor that nation state to make
all Israel be saved and a planfor Jews, even now, today, to be
grafted into the same way thatChristians are grafted in, by
grace through faith.
Now it's all salvation is bygrace through faith.
I do think there is thatparticular plan for Israel
(17:51):
because I look at Revelation andyou're going to go symbolic,
I'm going literal, with 144,000from the 12 tribes.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Okay, now go.
Man, there's a lot Okay.
Why?
Uh man, there's a lot Okay.
Why?
Modern day Judaism yes,Explicitly rejects Jesus Christ
100%, and you are saying thatGod wants to build that up into
(18:24):
a nation, a nation ofChrist-rejecting people?
Speaker 1 (18:29):
who— who God had a plan for since the days of
Abraham.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
His plan is for them to become Christians.
Yes, yes, I agree, I agree.
So, like you know, the sons ofAbraham, the true sons of
Abraham, paul said, are those offaith.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
So 1948 comes around yeah, Israel has not existed for
almost let's just call it 2,500years.
And then it pops back up on themap with a distinct people who
come from all the diasporateback to Israel to reform the
nation.
Now, granted, were theyYahweh-loving?
Let's just go Yahweh-loving,because right now you look at
(19:08):
Israel, it's super secular andnot exactly a Christian or even
a Jewish nation.
Right, they're a very secularnation, All right, but they do
have the bloodline that theyfeel like they can trace back to
Abraham, so to speak, and toJacob and to Israel, and so
there's got to be somethingthere about that.
(19:29):
That's such a miraculous thing,Because why wouldn't God just
eliminate them off the planetand just like, okay, we're done,
no more Israel, we don't haveto worry about this anymore.
What is that?
Speaker 2 (19:39):
then I don't know what.
God doesn't eliminate all theother God hating Christ,
rejecting nations, either.
That eventually all nationswill serve Christ.
The Great Commission, makedisciples of all nations.
And you know Habakkuk 2.14, theearth shall be filled with the
(20:03):
knowledge of the glory of theLord as waters cover the sea.
The earth shall be filled withthe knowledge of the glory of
the Lord as waters cover the sea.
One day, the whole earth willbe filled, as revelation says
that.
You know that the all the Kingswill will come um and serve
Jesus.
Right, the Kings of the nations, yeah, we'll live in a world
where every nation serves ChristUm, but right now you know
there's.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Christ rejecting nations all over the world.
Um and so to me, the state ofIsrael is just another
Christ-rejecting nation thatneeds to repent and come to
Christ and believe like everyother nation.
Okay, so, man, I feel like whenI look at this is what you're
kind of saying here.
So remember Malachi 4, rememberthe law of my servant Moses,
the statutes and rules thatcommanded him at Horeb for all
Israel.
Behold, I will send you Elijah,the prophet, before the great,
awesome day of the Lord comes,and he will turn the hearts of
fathers to their children, thehearts of children to their
(21:03):
fathers, lest they come andstrike the land with a decree of
utter destruction.
Are you saying that and I don'tknow if I'm putting words in
your mouth, but I'd love to hearyour thoughts that they don't
turn back to God here, becausethen Luke reinterprets it as
like turn the heart of therebellious back to the way of
the just, lest they come andstrike the land with a decree of
(21:26):
utter destruction.
So he does.
You're saying he did strike theland with a decree of utter
destruction and they arecompletely wiped out.
There is no hope, and theassimilation of Israel in 1948
was a complete fabrication ofhuman beings trying to do God's
work or something a completefabric because they would say
(21:52):
like hey, israel deserves tohave land, that there was a
distinct plan for israel, and sothey were like giving them back
the land that goes, that goesback to like as
dispensationalist,dispensational theology kind of
has.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
There's's two plans for physical Israel and the
church.
Right, that's not where I landand I know people hate me for
this, but I think there's oneplan.
There's no hatred right here.
We all love it.
There's one plan, One plan.
And so who does the land belongto?
The land belongs to the trueIsrael, the sons of Abraham.
And who are the sons of Abraham?
(22:26):
Christians, Christians who arethe sons of Abraham, Christians,
those who believe in Jesus.
Right, and not only the land ofIsrael belongs to Christians,
but the whole earth will be.
The meek shall inherit theearth.
Our inheritance as followers ofJesus is the whole new creation
, and so we're not justinheriting one portion of the
(22:47):
earth to inhabit for forever,we're inheriting the whole earth
.
Um, Israel was a microcosm, Umthe, the people of Israel were a
microcosm of what would one day, you know, be all the nations
um serving God.
The land of Israel is amicrocosm of what would one day
be the whole earth, which wasthe plan from the beginning Be
(23:09):
fruitful, multiply, fill theearth, subdue it, have dominion.
That is what God intended fromthe beginning is that his people
would populate the entire worldand bring the whole earth into
service of him for his glory, ashis image bearers.
So I think that that is whatGod is accomplishing, um through
his church, his people, and umthat the modern state of Israel
(23:32):
is um not not special in any way, um as a nation, Um, it is
another nation state that needsto repent and see Christ.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Okay, and I would say God chose them, like not
because they're bigger orstronger, but because he chose
them because he loved them,which I really love, that
reality that when Moses revealsthat God didn't choose you
because you're bigger orstronger or anything, he chose,
you because you're the least.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Deuteronomy 7, right.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Yeah, he's like he chose you because he chose you
and I think that gets intochristian theology of like god
chose to save you individuallybecause he chose to choose you,
not because you've done anythinggood, which then helps you be
reminded that it's not due toyour works that you get saved.
Yeah, um, but then secondchronicles 7 uh, if my people
(24:21):
you know, who call my, if theyviolate my commandments, I will
uproot them from my land thatI've given them, but then, if
they repent and they turn back,I will.
I will uproot them from my landthat I've given them, but then,
if they repent and they turnback, I will give it back to
them.
So this is where it's like butthey haven't repented.
Sure, sure, they still rejectChrist.
Yeah, that's true.
So why would he give anythingback?
You do bring up a good point,but I do.
(24:46):
That's why I feel like god'spromise to that bloodline is
specific, and I know god canraise up from these rocks, god
can make children, yeah, are hispromises to a bloodline or to a
people of faith?
clearly to a people of faithbecause you didn't have to be
part of the bloodline.
However, I right.
There seems to be somethingabout Abraham's seed.
Jacob's seed ultimately Jesus.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
And we are in Christ if we believe in him.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
So us as Christians.
Yeah, that's a good point.
Now, I think before 1948,everyone would have been like,
yeah, that makes sense.
But when Israel returns, thenit's hard to go.
How do you get rid of all thesepromises of blessing to Israel
and those who bless Israel willbe blessed?
There's a part of me you don'twant to be on the wrong side of
(25:33):
that, and what you would say isyou're not on the wrong side of
it because Israel is the churchnow.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Yes, the Gentiles grafted in by faith in Jesus is
what the book of Acts is about.
The beginning of that.
All the epistles are writingabout what that looks like for a
church that is mostly Gentilesnow, and yet, at the same time,
all the Gentiles.
This is what Paul says inRomans 9, 10, 11, that all the
(25:59):
Gentiles coming to faith willarouse jealousy in the Jews at
some point in the future, towhere there'll be this, you know
, massive kind of revival amongethnic Jews, where they convert
to Christ.
Um, and it'll be this reallycool thing.
But, um, yeah, who, who isGod's people?
It's, it's, um, it's those whobelieve.
(26:21):
Sons of Abraham are those whobelieve, and so those who reject
God.
They are under his judgment,and so the state of Israel that
says Jesus is not Lord.
I don't know why they wouldexpect God's blessing.
You reject his son, right.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Okay, yeah, I guess I'm saying like this is where I
look at Ezekiel 37, that army ofdry bones where he raises it
from the dead.
There's a part of me that is itpossible that he's talking
about the nation state and thenultimately then this is where I
go that if he's talking aboutthe 12 tribes of Israel in
Revelation, he could have saidthe 12 apostles, apostles.
(27:01):
I mean, he could have gone thatdirect because the 12 apostles
were known, but he went to 12tribes and he names them by
tribe.
And that's the part where Istruggle a little bit when he
names them by tribe of the144,000 that will be saved in
Revelation 7.
That's where I struggle alittle bit because it's like man
, it gets into a location, itgets into specific peoples of a
(27:23):
tribe of the 12 tribes of israel.
Um, that's where I kind of Iwrestle with that.
I have a hard time going likethat's just purely a symbolic
pointing to the church, whenthey could have easily just said
you know, peter, john, james,james, paul and the gang.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah, yeah.
All right, that's fair,dispensational.
People usually are really likewe take revelation literally,
right, but I'm like, okay, whenit says Jesus will return with a
sword In his mouth Coming outof his mouth, and you know, is
(28:04):
that a literal like his tonguecomes as a right.
You know, to me I'm like thereare clearly parts that are
literal and parts that are meantto be.
You know, it's like thispowerful imagery of what's
happening, and so I thinkthere's a lot of symbolism and
imagery in revelation, just likethere is in ezekiel and isaiah
and jeremiah.
Revelation is written like theprophets.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
I think that's what's super hard.
This is where I love this whenhe's talking about I heard the
number who were marked with aseal 144,000, sealed, from all
the tribes of the people ofIsrael, from the tribe of Judah
Reuben, gad, asher, naphtali,manasseh, simeon, levi, issachar
, zebulun, joseph and Benjamin.
(28:48):
Leaving out Gad or no, notleaving out Gad leaving out.
Who do you leave out?
Levi?
No, levi is in there.
Who do you leave out here?
Asher's in there.
So you've got Reuben, levi,simeon, judah, you've got
Benjamin and Joseph, and thenyou got Manasseh, which was
(29:11):
Joseph's son.
Let's see if I can find that.
Who did he leave out?
I know he left out one of thetribes.
Let's see here.
Oh, dan, yeah, yeah, dan, themost northern tribe.
That's where the.
I'm thinking that it wasprobably the first place where
(29:32):
they put the um, what's itcalled the golden calf during,
uh, king jeroboam, whenever he,you know, whenever they created
the, they put one in bethel andthey put one in Dan and said
here is the God that deliveredyou out of Egypt, and they all
worshipped in Dan.
I think that might be why theylost their land, although, oddly
(29:59):
, in Ezekiel 48, dan has a partof the millennial kingdom which
just sort of blows my mind.
So I think that's why it's tough, because I think you would
believe in the millennialkingdom, right?
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Yeah, everyone believes in the millennial
kingdom in some way.
Right, right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
It's just that your belief is that things are going
to get better and better andbetter until the millennial
kingdom is established.
And you'd say from Ezekiel thatmillennial kingdom isn't
necessarily any of the tribes.
That's just another way ofsaying different.
That's just God's people.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yeah, I mean God's people, our roots.
What Paul talks about, you know, um at when he brings up the
idea of, like the tree andbranches being broken off, he
says that the roots are thepatriarchs.
The patriarchs, the 12 tribes,those are the roots of God's
chosen people.
But over time, you know, whomakes up the composition of the
(30:51):
tree begins to be the nations,gentiles, all the nations of the
earth, more so than ethnicIsrael.
But the roots are still.
You know what we read inGenesis yeah, so here's this was
you know?
Speaker 1 (31:05):
what we read in Genesis.
Yeah, so here's this was.
You know, when you think aboutthis, this is where it gets
difficult.
Then when?
Because what you believe, sortof matters.
If God has a specific plan forIsrael, then you probably should
be supporting that.
If he doesn't, then you'reunder no obligation.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
You're under no obligation, right, right.
So then you can still, you canstill choose, you know, to be an
ally from, yeah, from a purelypolitical, diplomatic standpoint
, yes, but not from any biblicalmandate.
And I think the majority ofconservative Christian America
today sees it as a biblicalmandate, which I would disagree
(31:40):
with.
I don't think we have anybiblical mandate, because I
think the modern nation state ofIsrael is a Christ-rejecting
nation.
That, yeah, that God's plan isfor his people, the church,
those of it's wise or prudent,to, you know, be an ally or have
trade or go to the defense of,and all that, but no biblical
(32:09):
mandate in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Right, and that's where I'm like the great news
about God's sovereignty.
If Israel is supposed to be anation, it's supposed to be.
It's going to happen,regardless of whether I want it
to or not.
I just don't want to be on thewrong side of that.
When I look at God's word andsays those who are blessed, who
bless Israel and man, that's atough one for me.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Now, granted, well, imagine so take that now, yeah,
and those who curse Israel willbe cursed, right, right, who is
the true Israel?
Speaker 1 (32:35):
This is where you're saying the true Israel, jesus
Christ.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Okay, and those who are in him.
The true Israel is.
True israel is jesus, which I.
I like that.
And the modern nation state ofmodern nation state of israel
curses jesus christ, yeah, youknow like, rejects him as the
messiah and therefore, accordingto god word, god's word should
(32:59):
not expect to be blessed by god.
Um, why would you be blessed bygod when you curse his son?
Yeah, when you reject his son?
Yeah, when you reject his son.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
So that's my stance, yeah, no, I think it should make
people think of, like why areyou supporting Israel if you
like?
That's where it gets hard, andI still am like God has a plan
specific to Israel.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
I think God has a plan for every nation to worship
Christ, including America,including Israel, including
Canada, Mexico, Congo, Chinashould all worship Jesus Christ.
I agree, God has a plan forIsrael.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
And of the rejecters.
You don't think there's aspecial place in his heart for
Israel?
That's where I'm like gosh.
It just feels like Israel.
How could I ever forget you,israel?
Like you know, like all thecovenantal promises, all of that
, as a husband long for all ofHosea, like all of the all of
his promises are yes and amen inJesus Christ.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Second Corinthians one.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Now I will say like so whenever you look at.
Hosea.
You know, matthew reinterpretsHosea.
He said because out of Egypt Icalled my son, that's Hosea 11.1
.
But then that's then taken.
It was to mean Israel out ofEgypt, out of slavery and all
that, yeah.
But then Matthew reinterpretsit Out of Egypt I've called my
(34:21):
son Jesus.
Jesus being called out of Toescape Herod Right.
So, yeah, I mean, you have asolid backing from Scripture.
I just get a little nervous togive up on Israel.
Not that I think they're Don'tgive up on the true Israel Right
.
I'm not giving up on the trueIsrael.
(34:42):
I'm not giving up on the trueIsrael, the nation state, though
, as I look at it, israelisversus Israelites it's a
difference and I don't thinkthat they're saved.
I think they are destined fordarkness.
But I think, in my heart ofhearts, I want to see God reveal
himself to them.
Amen.
I want God to reveal himself tothem, as we all want, every
(35:02):
nation probably to.
I want, as you said, the Congo,but I do think God has a
special heart for them, becausethat was his bride, like it's,
you know.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Until well, that's where I would say until you know
, until the bride of Christcomes along.
Yes, well, his bride.
He continued to be faithful tohis bride, but his bride is not,
did not continue to be a nationstate.
His bride went from nationstate to, well no, through the
(35:36):
church, oh sorry.
So God has continued to befaithful to his people, but
instead of one nation, it isamong every nation, a holy
nation made from people of everynation.
So God has been.
That's what you know.
First, peter says right, soyeah, the God has continued to
(35:56):
be faithful to his covenant, hispromises, but with the
destruction of the temple, thatand Jesus' cursing of the fig
tree, the destruction of thetemple and Jesus' cursing of the
fig tree, the tearing down ofthe curtain at the crucifixion,
and the temple ministryessentially being brought to
nothing.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
The biggest thing for me is Mark 11.
The fig tree is out of season,yes, and he curses it.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Right.
And so, with all that, Godcontinues to be faithful but is
no longer attached to aparticular nation state, but
rather to the church.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Yeah, I agree with all that Nice, Except for I
still think God has a plan forIsrael uniquely, not because
they get saved by any other way,but-.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
How is that different than him calling all nations to
be Christian and to be savedand repent?
Speaker 1 (36:41):
That's a good point.
I just think there's going tobe a temple be built there.
And now do I think when thetemple is built.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
So what kind of temple is this it's going to?
Be, Because it's not one that'sworshiping Jesus.
Right, it's going to be theAntichrist temple.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Right, it's going to be a pagan temple, but I think
that's the plan.
Isichrist is going to stand inthe middle of, declare himself
to be God and everyone's goingto worship him, and then you've
got three and a half years ofutter hell on earth.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
So you think that God's special plan for them is
to usher in the Antichrist?
Yeah, that's one form of aspecial plan.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Yeah, I mean that is a special plan, but through that
he's going to save the 144,000that are legit.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
So now again.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
I don't know what that means for our support of
Israel, but I do know that Godhas a specific plan for Israel
in the end times, whereas Idon't see the United States of
America in Revelation, and maybewe're Babylon, or maybe we're
whoever we are, I don't know.
I see more of it as like andyou see it as we're going to
have heaven on earth through theMillial kingdom.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
That nations will, as the church grows and spreads
throughout every nation andgains influence, with Christians
living as salt and light andmaking disciples, that that will
influence nations holisticallyto where you know.
Right now we got this Eastermessage from Trump Right.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Hey, that was awesome .
Which is better than the transmessage last year.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
You know, and are there ways where we're very
unchristian as a nation too andneed to repent?
Yes, but imagine like it's nothard to imagine every nation in
the world one day moving in thedirection of Christ.
Is Lord right.
If it can happen here, whycould it not happen anywhere
else?
Due is Lord right.
If it can happen here, whycould it not happen anywhere
else?
Due to the influence of thechurch, due to the Christians
living as salt and light.
So, yeah, I think over time, aswe make disciples in every
(38:31):
nation and the church grows andspreads, we'll start to see more
and more nations center Christand honor and want to serve
Christ.
And yeah, I think that I desirethat for every nation and so I
pray for that for all nations.
We pray at ECC, we do corporateprayer with a different focus
(38:53):
every week, and so first week ischurch, second week is city,
third week is nation, fourthweek is the world, for more and
more nations to come to Christ.
Nations like North and SouthKorea to repent and trust Jesus.
Nations where people are beingpersecuted in the Middle East to
become Christian nations andsee the church spread and gain
influence, and where you don'tget beheaded for being a
(39:13):
Christian anymore.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Nice All right, that's good.
Lots to think about there.
Lots to think about.
I think you and I agree morethan I thought we did.
I just disagree that theworld's getting better and
better.
I kind of go the other way.
That's getting worse and worse,but maybe you know there's it's
like climate change.
You can go either way.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Well, I think there's .
If you believe that Jesus isbuilding his church, yes, and
the gates of hell should notprevail against it, then in some
sense you have to agree.
It is getting better and betterbecause the church is growing
more and more Right, and thechurch is the people of God,
salt and light.
You know the light of the world, and therefore, if the church
(39:54):
is growing, then things aregetting better.
Sure, and yet at the same timethe darkness recoils, you know,
at the light, and so persecutioncan increase as things get
better.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
So you have wheat and tares growing together to the
end right, and I think that'swhat you see with europe as it's
become dechristianized andalmost completely a pagan
continent yeah uh, and that'sreally heartbreaking to watch
and that's where you go, that'swhere it's getting worse and
worse, uh, but then in theunited states, where you have
President Trump saying a veryGod honoring statement.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Europe will be Christian again too.
You think so?
Yeah, because Jesus said he'llbuild his church and the gates
of hell won't stand against it.
That's very true, he did saythat.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
But could that be the spiritual church that won't be
defeated?
I guess that's where of coursethat's true.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Spiritual church is an embodied church, though it is
in a physical world it is.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
However, if they get wiped out because of persecution
or we don't do our job inreproducing, then that season of
time would end and then Jesuswould usher in the millennial
kingdom because he was ready tokind of take over the world.
So I don't know.
I think that's where it can goeither way.
(41:09):
Hopefully a lot of people atthis point have tuned out going
like I can't follow you guys.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
The three people still listening that are really
into this.
You know, email us if you havemore specific questions.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Yeah, I think, yeah, we probably lost everybody.
All right, hey, thanks so muchfor watching From our house to
yours.
Have an awesome week of worship.
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec, andjoining me is none other than
pastor holland.
So excited to have you onceagain, so excited to be here
once again.
All right, so let's talk abouta question that we received.
I think I passed it on to you.
Do you still have it?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
uh, let me because it is holy week.
It was about Jesus flippingover tables.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Yeah, Jesus did some flipping over tables during Holy
Week and we really want to getinto that, especially we're
coming up on Easter.
Holy Week, jesus goes into thetemple, flips some tables, gets
the people fired up.
And here is the question Goahead.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Podcast question.
I have a question.
They said Jesus never sinned.
Yep, jesus knocked over tableswhere people were doing trade in
the worship area.
How is that not a sin?
Yeah, what do you think?
I think it's a great question.
Question probably gets asked alot Um, cause he seems like he's
out of control and angry.
(00:59):
But yeah, um, and you know thatdoesn't really fit with the
nice, manicured um superfeminine Jesus, um that is often
presented um for someone to hehe makes his own whip.
Remember, yeah, he doesn't likebuy a whip or find a whip
(01:19):
laying around.
He actually makes his own whip.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
I wonder how long?
How long would it take to makeyour own whip?
He actually makes his own whipfor this.
I wonder how long would it taketo make your own whip.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
You know it doesn't tell us, but it says John 2.15.
So this is John's account ofthe flipping tables.
Is the beginning of hisministry, right?
So he did it twice, actually,john 2.15, making a whip of
cords.
He drove them all out of thetemple with the sheep and oxen
(01:48):
and he poured out the coins ofthe money changers and
overturned their tables.
Yeah, so pretty intense.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
I mean now when he's whipping people with the whip.
How hard is he whipping them?
Doesn't say he whipped anypeople, does it?
Well, he drove them out.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yeah, may have cracked the whip in a
frightening way to drive themout, he was threatening.
I'm just saying, you know, Idon't want to go beyond what it
says.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, sure, but do you think he whipped a cow or a
sheep?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
I mean probably whipped some animals.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
All right, all right.
All right, all right.
So why?
The only verse that pops intomy head is Psalm 69, nine Uh,
and that's where zeal for yourhouse consumes me.
Is that, isn't that right?
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yes, um.
But you also.
You know, in Mark and Mark'saccount, um, it says Jesus was
teaching them and saying to themis it not written my house
shall be called a house ofprayer for all nations, but you
have made it a den of robbers.
So in John he calls it a houseof trade, saying that even just
the trade, the commerce that wasgoing on, was not appropriate.
(02:54):
But also here he says that itwasn't just commerce in general,
it was exploitation or unjust.
He calls them that robbers.
So he says there's somethingimmoral going on in the commerce
itself.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Right, and he's quoting from Isaiah and Jeremiah
.
Yeah, jeremiah 7.
Jeremiah 7 and Isaiah what?
56.
Yes, so, yeah.
So that's, I think, is Isaiah56, the fast.
No, isaiah 56, what is Isaiah56?
(03:27):
Let's take a look real quick.
I think it's like my houseshall be a house of prayer for
all nations.
That's Isaiah 56.
Yeah, where it talks about, youknow, the eunuch will no longer
say I'm a dead tree.
The sojourner, the traveler,all these people will have a
home here, ultimately in myhouse, and my house will be
(03:48):
called the house of prayer forall nations.
And then Jeremiah seven was acon, was a um, uh admonishment,
what's called a rebuke of thepriests of Jeremiah's day who
were giving false hope andturning the, the worship center,
uh, the temple, into a den ofrobbers where they were looking
(04:08):
to make money.
Yeah, so I did appreciate thatconcept there.
But let's get back to why.
It wasn't sin, but ratherfulfillment of prophecy for
Jesus to drive people out of itwith the zeal, for your house
consumes me.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yeah, number one, it's his house.
Um, he's the Lord, right?
You know, if someone is in yourhouse doing something you don't
want them to do, you have everyright to get them out of your
house.
That's right, um, and it's notsimple.
So on, on just a very basiclevel, um, it's his house.
Uh, he calls it his father'shouse, but's equal with God.
It is his house.
(04:46):
He's the Lord of the temple, sohe has the right to drive
people out of there if he wantsto, and it's not sin.
That's just on a basic level ofhe has the right to do that.
Then, beyond that, his the zealthat he had.
You know the verse you broughtup.
Psalm 69 will consume me.
It was his anger at them was arighteous anger.
(05:08):
Our anger, you know we thinkabout, like the passage from
James.
The anger of man does notproduce the righteousness of God
.
Our anger is often sinful, youknow.
It's over for selfish reasonsor because of a lack of patience
or self-control or somethinglike that.
(05:28):
Do you think that there?
Speaker 1 (05:29):
is a place where we could have righteous anger and
we act out in zeal and it not besinful.
And what ways do you think thatwe could do that?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
When you're standing up for someone who's being
mistreated anger is really aprotective emotion, justice,
right.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
It's like, yeah, whenever you're bringing justice
to a situation.
So I feel like when you arebattling evil, let's just say a
police officer that's a believerand he arrests the criminal or
has to fight him with righteousanger to protect the I don't
know the store owner or thewhite or the daughter, or the
sorry the, the mom and herdaughter or whatever that.
(06:12):
That would be a good, goodexample of righteous anger yeah,
righteous anger is.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
You're like what I talk about with my, with my kids
, it's you're mad about theright things, the right amount,
so you're not mad about selfishthings you're mad about, you're
angry the right amount, soyou're not mad about selfish
things You're mad about.
You're angry about things thatare unjust or wrong.
You're seeking to protect, andit's the right amount.
You're not exploding in rageover something that's not a big
(06:39):
deal or whatever.
You know, god is slow to angeris what the scriptures say, and
so he's always angry about theright things, with the
appropriate amount of anger.
And I think we can haverighteous anger as well, and
that's what Jesus had in thetemple.
He had a righteous anger thatcommerce had taken over what was
meant to be a place of prayer.
And not only was it commerce,but they were taking advantage.
(07:03):
They're selling animals so thatpeople could sacrifice, who are
coming from all over, and theydidn't have to bring their
animals.
So it makes sense from abusiness side.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
But then they turn a house of prayer into a business
and they start charging more andmore exploiting people, and the
charging came not necessarilywith the animals but with the
exchanging of coins, which iswhy you know Right those
exchange rates.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
It was a symbolic display of God's judgment
against what was happening, andGod's judgment is righteous and
therefore what Jesus did therewas totally righteous.
It was not a temple tantrum inthe sense of he was immature or
impatient or just frustrated orhaving a bad day or something.
It was thoroughly righteousanger, appropriate for the
(07:51):
situation, that showed God'sheart and character, about
something that was unjust.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Okay.
So I want to get to somethingthat relates to this a little
bit about Israel for today andall that, but I'm going to start
leaning into that with a quotefrom Donald Trump.
President, all right.
So Donald Trump tweeted thisweek let's see if I can find it,
okay.
(08:18):
Here's where he said let's seeif I can find it, hold on, sorry
.
Okay, this is his quote aboutEaster.
Through the pain and sacrificeof Jesus on the cross, we saw
God's boundless love anddevotion to all humanity, and in
(08:42):
that moment of his resurrection, history was forever changed,
with the promise of everlastinglife.
And then he goes on.
As we approach this joyousEaster Sunday, I want to wish
Christians everywhere a happyand very blessed holiday.
He said, america is a nation ofbelievers.
We need God, we want God, andwith his help we will make our
nation stronger, safer, greaterand more prosperous and more
(09:03):
united than ever before.
Thank you and happy Easter.
Okay, then he did do a separatepost to Jewish people.
So, to all the Jewish familiesgathering with friends and loved
ones this week, have a blessedPassover, and may God continue
to watch over the Jewish people,the state of Israel and the
(09:24):
United States of America.
Okay, this is where I think youand I go different directions.
But let's talk about what thosedifferent directions are and
then get into why what Jesus didin the temple sort of was
symbolic of ending that ministry.
It's therefore symbolic ofending God's special
(09:45):
relationship with Israel in AD70.
Would that be a good way tostart?
Yeah, sure, all right, so let'stalk.
So your perspective is that,first off, let's just give
President Trump some credit on agreat, awesome statement about
Easter, yeah, the cross, theresurrection, I mean very yeah,
(10:05):
explicitly Christian gospelmessage Awesome.
Okay, then he then kind of goesback to a Passover thought,
which personally I would nothave a problem with.
But I think to your point.
I love what you said earlierbefore the show.
You were talking about how wewould never see a go.
Have a blessed Ramadan.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Well, like I mean Biden would say that Right,
right.
Last year we got a happy TransDay of Visibility, long message,
more so than anything reallytheologically sound about Easter
and the resurrection.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
But first off, we got to credit whoever wrote that
tweet for Trump.
Way to go, yeah, very good.
Whoever, you are like reallyproud of you.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Maybe he wrote it, but maybe he's got a Christian
team who writes this stuff onhim.
Who knows?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
He is with Billy Graham, and Billy Graham and him
are planning some sort of HolyWeek celebration this week to
kind of culminate with Easter,so there might be something
pretty awesome Anyway.
So yeah, I thought that or umwild.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
so yeah, great theologically sound and
encouraging name, um uh, frankfranklin.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Yeah, he's doing something with franklin graham,
yeah um, but anyway, yeah, I ohyeah he said he's, yeah, billy.
Like you know, billy rose fromthe dead too, I guess?
No, I know it's franklin grahamGraham who he's planning some
sort of really cool Easter thingwith.
And hey, franklin Graham'sprayer at the inauguration was
pretty awesome too.
I thought that was genuinelydistinctively Christian and I
(11:34):
was like way to go, trump.
Now I wouldn't have hired uhwho who was his?
Uh, linda white or no, paulawhite, paula white or no Paula
White?
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Paula White is his office of faith, not on my, like
, high ranking or high ranking,high like solid theology type
people, word of faith,prosperity type teaching yeah,
but hey, you know you get whatyou get and you don't throw a
fit.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I'll take that message that he just gave for
Easter Hallelujah and I don'tknow who on his team helped him
craft it, but it was awesome.
Now just gave for EasterHallelujah and I don't know who
on his team helped him craft it,but it was awesome.
Now shift it to Passover.
He prays that the Jews wouldhave a blessed Passover and
Israel would be blessed.
And you're like no.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Well, here's the thing, when he says you know,
have a blessed Passover.
People who still practiceJudaism to this day are those
who reject Christ as the MessiahRight and therefore practice a
religion that God will not bless.
It is a religion that rejectsJesus Christ.
(12:41):
It is a religion that rejectsJesus Christ, and so I think to
say have a blessed Passover isthe equivalent of have a blessed
Ramadan or a blessed festivalof lights for all the Hindu
people, and it's a holiday.
That, or it's a religion, Imean, that rejects Jesus as
(13:02):
Messiah, and that's problematicfor me.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Yeah, and I am with you on that of why that would
come off weird.
However, here's, I think, thestance that this is, where
probably not a lot oftheologically sound people in
the background were working withhim, but what he's saying is,
like I support Israel and thedispensational view, which you
don't necessarily agree with, isthat God has a specific plan
(13:27):
for the nation, the actualpolitical, sovereign nation of
Israel, to one day be restoredto prominence and that
ultimately they will come tofaith in Jesus when he reveals
himself to them in the last days.
Hence the 144, in revelation,uh, come from the 12 tribes of
israel.
Yeah, so what do we when welook at that and we're we're
(13:49):
kind of wrestling with that.
Your view is no 80, 70.
It's over the fig tree in mark11.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Right with that, jesus curses the fig tree
because all leaves, no, no fruitrepresented the Jewish religion
and no longer in season so thatseason's over, that season's
over, confirmed by thedestruction of the temple in 70
AD.
At that point,dispensationalism would say that
(14:23):
God, like you just said, godstill has a plan for the um
remnant.
Uh well, for particularly likeas a nation, as a nation.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yeah, yeah.
Whereas um say there's a planfor the remnant, but it's
ultimately, they come to faithin Christ.
Yes, they become Christians.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Exactly, yeah, so Romans 11, you know, all Israel
will be saved, um, that's, likeyou know, I feel like pretty
clear whether all meansliterally every last individual
you know who is an ethnicdescendant from Israel.
Right, that is around the lastday of either way.
(15:01):
A bunch of people you know, uh,who have, who are ethnic
Israelites, um, and yet havebeen living in rebellion to
Christ, will be saved, uh,there'll be a widespread
salvation of ethnic Israelites.
Um, I do believe that, but I Ithink where we differ is that
(15:21):
the that you know, israel as anation state still has some
particular plan, um, but whereasI would say god's plan is so,
80, 70, israel ceased to exist.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
In fact, let's just be honest.
Israel ceased to exist inbefore 586, it was what seven,
whenever israel was taken overby Assyria.
That's when Israel, thenorthern kingdom, died out.
Yeah, now the Jews that wouldbe returned to Babylon would be
(15:54):
called Israel as well.
That was a common thing toalternate Judah and Israel as
one or Ephraim.
Yeah, or Ephraim as one, orEphraim yeah, or Ephraim yeah.
So I look at it as like Israel,officially as a state, was
eliminated in what was that?
Now, I don't want to get anyonethrown off.
(16:17):
What year was Israel, thenorthern kingdom, yeah,
destroyed?
Yeah, that was yeah, 721.
So 721 bc they're destroyed, uh, and then 586 is when, finally,
all of judah is hauled off tobabylon.
So what I was looking is likeyou've got all the prophecies of
(16:41):
isaiah, of jeremiah, of the oneday returning, and they had to
spend 70 years in captivityuntil they were brought back,
daniel.
There's a part of this whereI'm like, could it not be a
double fulfillment?
It means, ultimately, thatChrist is going to return, like
(17:02):
the king is going to revealhimself, says hey, what's up?
And he would come for his own.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Here's my pushback on this.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Hold on, but let me explain real quick and then you
can push back.
So the Christians like theChristian view of hey, the
ultimate, the fulfillment wouldbe Jesus coming back for his own
people.
But then another fulfillmentwould be that Israel as a nation
state would show up again.
They wouldn't be saved becausethey were a nation state, but
they'd be ultimately saved byJesus when they came to believe
(17:29):
in the end times.
But there was a distinct planfor that nation state to make
all Israel be saved and a planfor Jews, even now, today, to be
grafted into the same way thatChristians are grafted in, by
grace through faith.
Now it's all salvation is bygrace through faith.
I do think there is thatparticular plan for Israel
(17:51):
because I look at Revelation andyou're going to go symbolic,
I'm going literal, with 144,000from the 12 tribes.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Okay, now go.
Man, there's a lot Okay.
Why?
Uh man, there's a lot Okay.
Why?
Modern day Judaism yes,Explicitly rejects Jesus Christ
100%, and you are saying thatGod wants to build that up into
(18:24):
a nation, a nation ofChrist-rejecting people?
Speaker 1 (18:29):
who— who God had a plan for since the days of
Abraham.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
His plan is for them to become Christians.
Yes, yes, I agree, I agree.
So, like you know, the sons ofAbraham, the true sons of
Abraham, paul said, are those offaith.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
So 1948 comes around yeah, Israel has not existed for
almost let's just call it 2,500years.
And then it pops back up on themap with a distinct people who
come from all the diasporateback to Israel to reform the
nation.
Now, granted, were theyYahweh-loving?
Let's just go Yahweh-loving,because right now you look at
(19:08):
Israel, it's super secular andnot exactly a Christian or even
a Jewish nation.
Right, they're a very secularnation, All right, but they do
have the bloodline that theyfeel like they can trace back to
Abraham, so to speak, and toJacob and to Israel, and so
there's got to be somethingthere about that.
(19:29):
That's such a miraculous thing,Because why wouldn't God just
eliminate them off the planetand just like, okay, we're done,
no more Israel, we don't haveto worry about this anymore.
What is that?
Speaker 2 (19:39):
then I don't know what.
God doesn't eliminate all theother God hating Christ,
rejecting nations, either.
That eventually all nationswill serve Christ.
The Great Commission, makedisciples of all nations.
And you know Habakkuk 2.14, theearth shall be filled with the
(20:03):
knowledge of the glory of theLord as waters cover the sea.
The earth shall be filled withthe knowledge of the glory of
the Lord as waters cover the sea.
One day, the whole earth willbe filled, as revelation says
that.
You know that the all the Kingswill will come um and serve
Jesus.
Right, the Kings of the nations, yeah, we'll live in a world
where every nation serves ChristUm, but right now you know
there's.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Christ rejecting nations all over the world.
Um and so to me, the state ofIsrael is just another
Christ-rejecting nation thatneeds to repent and come to
Christ and believe like everyother nation.
Okay, so, man, I feel like whenI look at this is what you're
kind of saying here.
So remember Malachi 4, rememberthe law of my servant Moses,
the statutes and rules thatcommanded him at Horeb for all
Israel.
Behold, I will send you Elijah,the prophet, before the great,
awesome day of the Lord comes,and he will turn the hearts of
fathers to their children, thehearts of children to their
(21:03):
fathers, lest they come andstrike the land with a decree of
utter destruction.
Are you saying that and I don'tknow if I'm putting words in
your mouth, but I'd love to hearyour thoughts that they don't
turn back to God here, becausethen Luke reinterprets it as
like turn the heart of therebellious back to the way of
the just, lest they come andstrike the land with a decree of
(21:26):
utter destruction.
So he does.
You're saying he did strike theland with a decree of utter
destruction and they arecompletely wiped out.
There is no hope, and theassimilation of Israel in 1948
was a complete fabrication ofhuman beings trying to do God's
work or something a completefabric because they would say
(21:52):
like hey, israel deserves tohave land, that there was a
distinct plan for israel, and sothey were like giving them back
the land that goes, that goesback to like as
dispensationalist,dispensational theology kind of
has.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
There's's two plans for physical Israel and the
church.
Right, that's not where I landand I know people hate me for
this, but I think there's oneplan.
There's no hatred right here.
We all love it.
There's one plan, One plan.
And so who does the land belongto?
The land belongs to the trueIsrael, the sons of Abraham.
And who are the sons of Abraham?
(22:26):
Christians, Christians who arethe sons of Abraham, Christians,
those who believe in Jesus.
Right, and not only the land ofIsrael belongs to Christians,
but the whole earth will be.
The meek shall inherit theearth.
Our inheritance as followers ofJesus is the whole new creation
, and so we're not justinheriting one portion of the
(22:47):
earth to inhabit for forever,we're inheriting the whole earth
.
Um, Israel was a microcosm, Umthe, the people of Israel were a
microcosm of what would one day, you know, be all the nations
um serving God.
The land of Israel is amicrocosm of what would one day
be the whole earth, which wasthe plan from the beginning Be
(23:09):
fruitful, multiply, fill theearth, subdue it, have dominion.
That is what God intended fromthe beginning is that his people
would populate the entire worldand bring the whole earth into
service of him for his glory, ashis image bearers.
So I think that that is whatGod is accomplishing, um through
his church, his people, and umthat the modern state of Israel
(23:32):
is um not not special in any way, um as a nation, Um, it is
another nation state that needsto repent and see Christ.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Okay, and I would say God chose them, like not
because they're bigger orstronger, but because he chose
them because he loved them,which I really love, that
reality that when Moses revealsthat God didn't choose you
because you're bigger orstronger or anything, he chose,
you because you're the least.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Deuteronomy 7, right.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Yeah, he's like he chose you because he chose you
and I think that gets intochristian theology of like god
chose to save you individuallybecause he chose to choose you,
not because you've done anythinggood, which then helps you be
reminded that it's not due toyour works that you get saved.
Yeah, um, but then secondchronicles 7 uh, if my people
(24:21):
you know, who call my, if theyviolate my commandments, I will
uproot them from my land thatI've given them, but then, if
they repent and they turn back,I will.
I will uproot them from my landthat I've given them, but then,
if they repent and they turnback, I will give it back to
them.
So this is where it's like butthey haven't repented.
Sure, sure, they still rejectChrist.
Yeah, that's true.
So why would he give anythingback?
You do bring up a good point,but I do.
(24:46):
That's why I feel like god'spromise to that bloodline is
specific, and I know god canraise up from these rocks, god
can make children, yeah, are hispromises to a bloodline or to a
people of faith?
clearly to a people of faithbecause you didn't have to be
part of the bloodline.
However, I right.
There seems to be somethingabout Abraham's seed.
Jacob's seed ultimately Jesus.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
And we are in Christ if we believe in him.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
So us as Christians.
Yeah, that's a good point.
Now, I think before 1948,everyone would have been like,
yeah, that makes sense.
But when Israel returns, thenit's hard to go.
How do you get rid of all thesepromises of blessing to Israel
and those who bless Israel willbe blessed?
There's a part of me you don'twant to be on the wrong side of
(25:33):
that, and what you would say isyou're not on the wrong side of
it because Israel is the churchnow.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Yes, the Gentiles grafted in by faith in Jesus is
what the book of Acts is about.
The beginning of that.
All the epistles are writingabout what that looks like for a
church that is mostly Gentilesnow, and yet, at the same time,
all the Gentiles.
This is what Paul says inRomans 9, 10, 11, that all the
(25:59):
Gentiles coming to faith willarouse jealousy in the Jews at
some point in the future, towhere there'll be this, you know
, massive kind of revival amongethnic Jews, where they convert
to Christ.
Um, and it'll be this reallycool thing.
But, um, yeah, who, who isGod's people?
It's, it's, um, it's those whobelieve.
(26:21):
Sons of Abraham are those whobelieve, and so those who reject
God.
They are under his judgment,and so the state of Israel that
says Jesus is not Lord.
I don't know why they wouldexpect God's blessing.
You reject his son, right.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Okay, yeah, I guess I'm saying like this is where I
look at Ezekiel 37, that army ofdry bones where he raises it
from the dead.
There's a part of me that is itpossible that he's talking
about the nation state and thenultimately then this is where I
go that if he's talking aboutthe 12 tribes of Israel in
Revelation, he could have saidthe 12 apostles, apostles.
(27:01):
I mean, he could have gone thatdirect because the 12 apostles
were known, but he went to 12tribes and he names them by
tribe.
And that's the part where Istruggle a little bit when he
names them by tribe of the144,000 that will be saved in
Revelation 7.
That's where I struggle alittle bit because it's like man
, it gets into a location, itgets into specific peoples of a
(27:23):
tribe of the 12 tribes of israel.
Um, that's where I kind of Iwrestle with that.
I have a hard time going likethat's just purely a symbolic
pointing to the church, whenthey could have easily just said
you know, peter, john, james,james, paul and the gang.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah, yeah.
All right, that's fair,dispensational.
People usually are really likewe take revelation literally,
right, but I'm like, okay, whenit says Jesus will return with a
sword In his mouth Coming outof his mouth, and you know, is
(28:04):
that a literal like his tonguecomes as a right.
You know, to me I'm like thereare clearly parts that are
literal and parts that are meantto be.
You know, it's like thispowerful imagery of what's
happening, and so I thinkthere's a lot of symbolism and
imagery in revelation, just likethere is in ezekiel and isaiah
and jeremiah.
Revelation is written like theprophets.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
I think that's what's super hard.
This is where I love this whenhe's talking about I heard the
number who were marked with aseal 144,000, sealed, from all
the tribes of the people ofIsrael, from the tribe of Judah
Reuben, gad, asher, naphtali,manasseh, simeon, levi, issachar
, zebulun, joseph and Benjamin.
(28:48):
Leaving out Gad or no, notleaving out Gad leaving out.
Who do you leave out?
Levi?
No, levi is in there.
Who do you leave out here?
Asher's in there.
So you've got Reuben, levi,simeon, judah, you've got
Benjamin and Joseph, and thenyou got Manasseh, which was
(29:11):
Joseph's son.
Let's see if I can find that.
Who did he leave out?
I know he left out one of thetribes.
Let's see here.
Oh, dan, yeah, yeah, dan, themost northern tribe.
That's where the.
I'm thinking that it wasprobably the first place where
(29:32):
they put the um, what's itcalled the golden calf during,
uh, king jeroboam, whenever he,you know, whenever they created
the, they put one in bethel andthey put one in Dan and said
here is the God that deliveredyou out of Egypt, and they all
worshipped in Dan.
I think that might be why theylost their land, although, oddly
(29:59):
, in Ezekiel 48, dan has a partof the millennial kingdom which
just sort of blows my mind.
So I think that's why it's tough, because I think you would
believe in the millennialkingdom, right?
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Yeah, everyone believes in the millennial
kingdom in some way.
Right, right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
It's just that your belief is that things are going
to get better and better andbetter until the millennial
kingdom is established.
And you'd say from Ezekiel thatmillennial kingdom isn't
necessarily any of the tribes.
That's just another way ofsaying different.
That's just God's people.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yeah, I mean God's people, our roots.
What Paul talks about, you know, um at when he brings up the
idea of, like the tree andbranches being broken off, he
says that the roots are thepatriarchs.
The patriarchs, the 12 tribes,those are the roots of God's
chosen people.
But over time, you know, whomakes up the composition of the
(30:51):
tree begins to be the nations,gentiles, all the nations of the
earth, more so than ethnicIsrael.
But the roots are still.
You know what we read inGenesis yeah, so here's this was
you know?
Speaker 1 (31:05):
what we read in Genesis.
Yeah, so here's this was.
You know, when you think aboutthis, this is where it gets
difficult.
Then when?
Because what you believe, sortof matters.
If God has a specific plan forIsrael, then you probably should
be supporting that.
If he doesn't, then you'reunder no obligation.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
You're under no obligation, right, right.
So then you can still, you canstill choose, you know, to be an
ally from, yeah, from a purelypolitical, diplomatic standpoint
, yes, but not from any biblicalmandate.
And I think the majority ofconservative Christian America
today sees it as a biblicalmandate, which I would disagree
(31:40):
with.
I don't think we have anybiblical mandate, because I
think the modern nation state ofIsrael is a Christ-rejecting
nation.
That, yeah, that God's plan isfor his people, the church,
those of it's wise or prudent,to, you know, be an ally or have
trade or go to the defense of,and all that, but no biblical
(32:09):
mandate in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Right, and that's where I'm like the great news
about God's sovereignty.
If Israel is supposed to be anation, it's supposed to be.
It's going to happen,regardless of whether I want it
to or not.
I just don't want to be on thewrong side of that.
When I look at God's word andsays those who are blessed, who
bless Israel and man, that's atough one for me.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Now, granted, well, imagine so take that now, yeah,
and those who curse Israel willbe cursed, right, right, who is
the true Israel?
Speaker 1 (32:35):
This is where you're saying the true Israel, jesus
Christ.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Okay, and those who are in him.
The true Israel is.
True israel is jesus, which I.
I like that.
And the modern nation state ofmodern nation state of israel
curses jesus christ, yeah, youknow like, rejects him as the
messiah and therefore, accordingto god word, god's word should
(32:59):
not expect to be blessed by god.
Um, why would you be blessed bygod when you curse his son?
Yeah, when you reject his son?
Yeah, when you reject his son.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
So that's my stance, yeah, no, I think it should make
people think of, like why areyou supporting Israel if you
like?
That's where it gets hard, andI still am like God has a plan
specific to Israel.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
I think God has a plan for every nation to worship
Christ, including America,including Israel, including
Canada, Mexico, Congo, Chinashould all worship Jesus Christ.
I agree, God has a plan forIsrael.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
And of the rejecters.
You don't think there's aspecial place in his heart for
Israel?
That's where I'm like gosh.
It just feels like Israel.
How could I ever forget you,israel?
Like you know, like all thecovenantal promises, all of that
, as a husband long for all ofHosea, like all of the all of
his promises are yes and amen inJesus Christ.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Second Corinthians one.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Now I will say like so whenever you look at.
Hosea.
You know, matthew reinterpretsHosea.
He said because out of Egypt Icalled my son, that's Hosea 11.1
.
But then that's then taken.
It was to mean Israel out ofEgypt, out of slavery and all
that, yeah.
But then Matthew reinterpretsit Out of Egypt I've called my
(34:21):
son Jesus.
Jesus being called out of Toescape Herod Right.
So, yeah, I mean, you have asolid backing from Scripture.
I just get a little nervous togive up on Israel.
Not that I think they're Don'tgive up on the true Israel Right
.
I'm not giving up on the trueIsrael.
(34:42):
I'm not giving up on the trueIsrael, the nation state, though
, as I look at it, israelisversus Israelites it's a
difference and I don't thinkthat they're saved.
I think they are destined fordarkness.
But I think, in my heart ofhearts, I want to see God reveal
himself to them.
Amen.
I want God to reveal himself tothem, as we all want, every
(35:02):
nation probably to.
I want, as you said, the Congo,but I do think God has a
special heart for them, becausethat was his bride, like it's,
you know.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Until well, that's where I would say until you know
, until the bride of Christcomes along.
Yes, well, his bride.
He continued to be faithful tohis bride, but his bride is not,
did not continue to be a nationstate.
His bride went from nationstate to, well no, through the
(35:36):
church, oh sorry.
So God has continued to befaithful to his people, but
instead of one nation, it isamong every nation, a holy
nation made from people of everynation.
So God has been.
That's what you know.
First, peter says right, soyeah, the God has continued to
(35:56):
be faithful to his covenant, hispromises, but with the
destruction of the temple, thatand Jesus' cursing of the fig
tree, the destruction of thetemple and Jesus' cursing of the
fig tree, the tearing down ofthe curtain at the crucifixion,
and the temple ministryessentially being brought to
nothing.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
The biggest thing for me is Mark 11.
The fig tree is out of season,yes, and he curses it.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Right.
And so, with all that, Godcontinues to be faithful but is
no longer attached to aparticular nation state, but
rather to the church.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Yeah, I agree with all that Nice, Except for I
still think God has a plan forIsrael uniquely, not because
they get saved by any other way,but-.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
How is that different than him calling all nations to
be Christian and to be savedand repent?
Speaker 1 (36:41):
That's a good point.
I just think there's going tobe a temple be built there.
And now do I think when thetemple is built.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
So what kind of temple is this it's going to?
Be, Because it's not one that'sworshiping Jesus.
Right, it's going to be theAntichrist temple.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Right, it's going to be a pagan temple, but I think
that's the plan.
Isichrist is going to stand inthe middle of, declare himself
to be God and everyone's goingto worship him, and then you've
got three and a half years ofutter hell on earth.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
So you think that God's special plan for them is
to usher in the Antichrist?
Yeah, that's one form of aspecial plan.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Yeah, I mean that is a special plan, but through that
he's going to save the 144,000that are legit.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
So now again.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
I don't know what that means for our support of
Israel, but I do know that Godhas a specific plan for Israel
in the end times, whereas Idon't see the United States of
America in Revelation, and maybewe're Babylon, or maybe we're
whoever we are, I don't know.
I see more of it as like andyou see it as we're going to
have heaven on earth through theMillial kingdom.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
That nations will, as the church grows and spreads
throughout every nation andgains influence, with Christians
living as salt and light andmaking disciples, that that will
influence nations holisticallyto where you know.
Right now we got this Eastermessage from Trump Right.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Hey, that was awesome .
Which is better than the transmessage last year.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
You know, and are there ways where we're very
unchristian as a nation too andneed to repent?
Yes, but imagine like it's nothard to imagine every nation in
the world one day moving in thedirection of Christ.
Is Lord right.
If it can happen here, whycould it not happen anywhere
else?
Due is Lord right.
If it can happen here, whycould it not happen anywhere
else?
Due to the influence of thechurch, due to the Christians
living as salt and light.
So, yeah, I think over time, aswe make disciples in every
(38:31):
nation and the church grows andspreads, we'll start to see more
and more nations center Christand honor and want to serve
Christ.
And yeah, I think that I desirethat for every nation and so I
pray for that for all nations.
We pray at ECC, we do corporateprayer with a different focus
(38:53):
every week, and so first week ischurch, second week is city,
third week is nation, fourthweek is the world, for more and
more nations to come to Christ.
Nations like North and SouthKorea to repent and trust Jesus.
Nations where people are beingpersecuted in the Middle East to
become Christian nations andsee the church spread and gain
influence, and where you don'tget beheaded for being a
(39:13):
Christian anymore.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Nice All right, that's good.
Lots to think about there.
Lots to think about.
I think you and I agree morethan I thought we did.
I just disagree that theworld's getting better and
better.
I kind of go the other way.
That's getting worse and worse,but maybe you know there's it's
like climate change.
You can go either way.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Well, I think there's .
If you believe that Jesus isbuilding his church, yes, and
the gates of hell should notprevail against it, then in some
sense you have to agree.
It is getting better and betterbecause the church is growing
more and more Right, and thechurch is the people of God,
salt and light.
You know the light of the world, and therefore, if the church
(39:54):
is growing, then things aregetting better.
Sure, and yet at the same timethe darkness recoils, you know,
at the light, and so persecutioncan increase as things get
better.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
So you have wheat and tares growing together to the
end right, and I think that'swhat you see with europe as it's
become dechristianized andalmost completely a pagan
continent yeah uh, and that'sreally heartbreaking to watch
and that's where you go, that'swhere it's getting worse and
worse, uh, but then in theunited states, where you have
President Trump saying a veryGod honoring statement.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Europe will be Christian again too.
You think so?
Yeah, because Jesus said he'llbuild his church and the gates
of hell won't stand against it.
That's very true, he did saythat.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
But could that be the spiritual church that won't be
defeated?
I guess that's where of coursethat's true.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Spiritual church is an embodied church, though it is
in a physical world it is.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
However, if they get wiped out because of persecution
or we don't do our job inreproducing, then that season of
time would end and then Jesuswould usher in the millennial
kingdom because he was ready tokind of take over the world.
So I don't know.
I think that's where it can goeither way.
(41:09):
Hopefully a lot of people atthis point have tuned out going
like I can't follow you guys.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
The three people still listening that are really
into this.
You know, email us if you havemore specific questions.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Yeah, I think, yeah, we probably lost everybody.
All right, hey, thanks so muchfor watching From our house to
yours.
Have an awesome week of worship.
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