March 12, 2025 • 51 mins
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347: The neuroscience of desire meets biblical wisdom in this candid exploration of marital intimacy through the lens of Solomon's ancient love poetry. Our pastoral team uncovers how this 3,000-year-old text reveals surprising truths about what makes marriages thrive physically and emotionally today.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec, andjoining me in studio is none
other than the motas.
They have ezekiel and one onthe way over there.
What do you do, brie?
Like end of july end of julyand I also have pastor Holland
Gregg from the EastsideCommunity Church.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Pastor Holland welcome.
And then I also have JordanSmith Excited to be here,
Forensics expert Just keepingthat going.
Well listen, I think it's trueand.
I believe in your forensicskills, all right, so we are
talking about Song of Solomon,chapter 4.
And, holland, I think youpreached this back in the day at
(00:47):
Eastside in the 2020.
Back in the day, indeed, andthis is where we talked about
sex, and so if you've got youngones around, we're going to talk
about sex.
So this is where you get themaway from your screen or put
your headphones on as you watch.
So, listen, we've been talkingabout God's design for sex, and
(01:08):
one of the things that we madenote of is that God's Word has
everything we need for life,godliness, salvation and
sanctification, for having sexand also for parenting.
I throw parenting in therebecause I think sometimes
parents are like where's thepart of how to be a good dad or
how to be a good mom?
The Proverbs is a great placeto start for that.
(01:30):
Solomon is great to work onyour marriage.
Proverbs is great to work onyour parenting, and so I bring
that up because we're gettinginto the scripture and it is
very graphic of Solomon'sdescription of his bride, where
he goes over her eyes, her hair,her teeth, her lips, her cheeks
(01:50):
, her neck and then to herbreasts, and he is enjoying
every aspect of his wife, andwhat I said there is that the
groom initiated affection due tohis bride, which I got from 1
Corinthians 7.3, where it sayslet the husband rend to his wife
the affection due her.
Or, as ESV says, the husbandshould give to his wife her
(02:13):
conjugal rights, which I thoughtwas sort of funny because
conjugal rights seem a littlebit not quite as intimate or
maybe just seem a little rougherthan affection.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
I was just like that's sort of odd.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Anyway, the reason why I bring that up is Jesus
loves the church and husbandsand wives are to represent the
picture of Jesus and his church,render the affection first.
It is the husband's duty, job,obligation, role and
responsibility to render or togive his wife the affection that
(02:51):
is due to her.
Have you guys seen that besomething that men push back on
in your premarital maritalcounseling?
That you guys have seen?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yes A lot Definitely, and how have you seen that?
Speaker 1 (03:10):
What do you mean by that?
You've had a lot of couplescome through some re-engage
where they're really talkingabout the intimate stuff of
their life, and it seems likethe men go passive here and the
women are the ones that arereally rendering the affection
due.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Well, yeah, the men are all like, like, oh, our sex
life is great, no complaints.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
and then when we split off men and women, it's
all complaints from the women no, I don't want you to get into
any specific person, butgenerally, what are some of the
complaints that you've heard?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
um that he just though she's ready for bed and
he's just feeling up on herexpecting something there's no
like there's no preheating,there's no, there's no
preheating love and there's nosweet talking.
It's just straight to the point, and then the woman will feel
either obligated or pressured,or the men feel rejected.
(04:08):
Right.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
And that's essential.
I think that what you havedescribed is how most of the
marriages I've coached initiallystart off is that the man does
not think about sex until he'sin the bedroom, because men are
like waffles, women are likespaghetti, and so women are sort
of thinking, oh, if he wantedit, he would be talking about it
all day, and men are like ifit's not in front of me, I don't
(04:31):
see it.
And I think that's part of theproblem, especially into
marriage, because you'veforgotten the art of the romance
, because something happened.
What do you think?
Holland?
Speaker 5 (04:42):
Yeah, sounds good.
I agree.
The art of, did you say the artof the romance?
The art of the romance, the artof the romance, yeah, yeah.
The groom in Song of Solomon, amaster of the art of the
romance.
Yeah, he is the master of theart of the romance.
(05:03):
Masterful with his words,masterful with showing affection
, communicating desire,communicating expectations.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Yeah, puts a lot of men to shame, yeah, but you know
, is meant to be a model Acouple of things I saw here is
that and this might be helpful,I think, if you understood the
wedding day and why thatprobably felt like a microwave
moment is because the woman hasbeen preparing for the wedding
(05:33):
day.
It's been an agreed-upon day,she knows it's coming, the day
of she's fully engaged, thinkingabout all that, her dress,
she's wearing it, for the waythat it's going to eventually
come off.
I mean, there's all of thatthat goes into it.
And the guy, he just shows upand he's happy to be there and
doesn't understand the amount ofpreparation and work that's
(05:54):
gone into this day.
So then afterwards, whenevercouples are married, the man
does not realize the work thatgoes into getting the woman
prepared for sex and so he showsup just like he did on the
wedding day, not knowing there'sa lot of other factors that
help the woman get preheated,and I feel like that's the
problem.
And so also we need to havehusbands and wives kind of think
(06:16):
.
Remember they're just likeJesus in the church and so we
love, the church loves Jesus,because he first loved us.
And so men, knowing thatexample of initiating affection
and initiating all that, justlike the husband is seen here,
that becomes imperative kind ofum.
Parse this out is the calendarhelpful in getting a woman ready
(06:49):
, uh, to get preheated for sex?
Is that helpful for you to likeknow when that date is coming?
Speaker 3 (06:57):
for me?
No, I think just looking at mycalendar and seeing sex on there
is really weird.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
No, but like, if he, yes, you don't write sex on the
calendar.
What you do write is hey, we'regoing to this restaurant or
we're going and spending, ohlike planning date night yes.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Then yes, but.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
I also think like the calendar is very literal, like
if you know when you come homefrom work, you want something
like you said you come home fromwork, you want something like
you said make a little commentbefore you leave.
Text something nice throughoutthe day, don't text can we have
sex tonight?
Speaker 1 (07:31):
right, like be more romantic, more words um, because
talk to me about the more words, because I I think men don't
understand more words, becausein general we think words are
just a means to a straight endof communication, and for a
woman it's a lot more.
(07:52):
It says so much more than justI want sex now.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Yeah, I can't.
Can I say something real quick?
Speaker 4 (07:58):
Well, I thought of this earlier, but when you were
talking about the wedding nightand it seemed easy from the
guy's perspective.
If you think about it, thewedding day is probably one of
the days where the man is themost romantic in a relationship
like you write your vows yep,you dance, you look into each
other's eyes.
So, to the woman's side, it'slike everything she wants you
(08:22):
know, but then the next daywe're not.
We're not doing the same thing,you know, we don't?
Speaker 1 (08:28):
there's no.
There's no.
Uh, first dance there's no.
Uh.
Giving you know, feeding eachother cake?
Speaker 5 (08:34):
there's no speak for yourselves yeah, we feed each
other cake daily, daily in myhouse.
Yeah, that's good but?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
but imagine if you had a systematization,
systematization, systemized.
Speaker 5 (08:50):
A system.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
A system, thank you, a system where you understood
there were certain expectationsthat went along with it, because
a groom didn't make up thewhole wedding.
He's like you know, know, weshould probably have a first
dance.
That was like it's more likehey, what song are we gonna do
for our first dance?
You're, you're not, you're notasking what, you're asking how,
(09:13):
whereas I think for the rest ofyour lives you're like I don't
know, what do you want to do?
And that, I think, becomes theproblem for relationships,
because it feels like to thewoman she's wanting spontaneous
love and joy.
That looks like it's comingfrom the heart and he's just
like just give me the plan and Iwill work the plan.
Would you guys agree with that?
Speaker 3 (09:33):
yeah yeah, going back to the words thing, though, I
can't speak for every womanbecause every woman's different.
But for me, when I feelappreciated, or I feel like he
sees me, um, or I just hear itlike compliments, that
automatically makes me like,even if he's simply doing it to
(09:54):
truly appreciate me and has nointention of sex, I'm more
likely to initiate because Ifeel connected.
I feel like, oh, he sees me, hevalues me.
When you walk past your wife inthe kitchen and smack her butt
and that's your way ofindicating you want something
we're never going to pick, Iwill never pick up on that.
I think you're just being adude.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
Let me write this down.
Speaker 5 (10:19):
Because I feel like you're just like oh, let her
know.
You just shattered manyuniverses with that statement
right there.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
You just destroyed a lot of men, I feel like if
you're like, oh, preheat theoven, let her know, give her
hints.
A lot of men, those will betheir hints.
That's not the hints that uswomen want.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
So what is the hint?
That you want Words.
Words, got it Okay.
So as he gently taps yourbottom, as he passes you, you
need him to say what does he say?
Fill in the blank, help him out.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
I don't know, I can't give you an exact, but to me,
if it's just a constant touchingof boobs and butt, I think
you're simply a dude.
I don't think.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
I'm just laying it out, I'm being real, all right.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
No, I appreciate that we are real here at the
Passerplex podcast.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
To me that's not being romantic, that's not
uplifting your wife Like that'snot.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
So what you're saying is just coming up.
So one of the things I talkedabout is that seven second
kisses, because that is one ofthe ways that you can induce
saliva transfer and, uh, salivatransfer over time builds up
testosterone in the woman, whichmakes her arousal to be way
easier.
So would you be excited aboutseven second kisses from your
(11:38):
husband?
Speaker 3 (11:39):
yeah, and we've done that before oh awesome uh,
someone told us a long time agothat the best thing they did for
their marriage was make outevery night yeah with no
expectations of anything else,just make out every night and
that alone it's exactly resultedin a better sex life for them
yeah, all right, so.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
So so, kissing, kissing, uh, without expectation
of sex, even though how can Iput this?
Of course, the man has suchpure intention just to love her
in the moment, but there isprobably a hope that this will
lead to something more All right, so let's talk about that.
Is it okay to have non-sexualtouching, with the hope that
(12:22):
sexual touching will come later?
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Yeah, but I think that can't be your only.
I don't want to like put you onthe spot, but a big thing that
we worked through is he thoughthim walking past and touching or
walking past and giving me akiss was initiating or letting
me know.
But when you do that everysingle day, I don't know that.
I think that's just who you areand what you do.
(12:46):
So I think, if, if, yeah, Idon't know like you need to make
it.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
I think she might be a words of affirmation, girl, I
don't know like okay to methere's nothing special in that,
if oh wow there are days wherehe's rejecting me, but he was
still being physically well, hewas, word with words, rejecting
you but being with his, hishands, very accepting correct,
(13:14):
but then still didn't like thatwasn't a day that he wanted to
have sex.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
So I'm like how am I supposed to differentiate when
you're giving me hints and whenyou're just?
Speaker 1 (13:23):
so it would it be fair to say pablo, you're always
giving hints.
There's never a time that's nothoping for something more that's
exactly right okay, so it'spretty universally true, yeah,
yeah yeah, I think what men aretrying to do is is always
preheat, and so I think thismight be where it might be
helpful to help your husband outby saying, if you're wanting
sex, that's not getting you thatI need.
(13:45):
But then, of course, I feellike the spontaneity is a big
thing for women to feel likeit's not for another purpose,
it's for like the genuine justwanting to be with you.
Yeah, so I think that's reallyreally difficult to pull off,
but I do appreciate that youshared that.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
I think we I think we give.
I think you've talked aboutthis.
We give what we want, right?
So brie is a lot better atgiving me compliments and
telling me how good I look andlike I could literally care less
.
I actually don't like it whenshe does it okay, and that's a
hint to you.
Speaker 5 (14:24):
Yeah, sure, and then don't like it when she does it.
Okay, that's a hint to you.
Yeah, sure you don't like itwhen your wife tells you that
she's attracted to you.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
No, I mean, yeah, why ?
But in her words it's like oh,you look good today.
I'm just like, okay, what?
Speaker 5 (14:40):
do you?
Speaker 1 (14:41):
say then, of course, what do you say then?
I mean, what am I?
A piece of meat?
Speaker 4 (14:46):
Right, I feel used.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Oh, my God.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
No, but then for me, what I would want from her is
for her to just come up andtouch me, and so, naturally,
that's what I do to her.
Oh right but she doesn't reallywant that.
She wants me to give hercompliments.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Right, there you go, and so.
So it seems like the patternthat solomon's laying out here
is lots of words.
He's got a I think, as a pastormo said an arsenal of words at
his disposal of compliments andarsenal of compliments and he is
just boom, boom, boom, boom andhe's talking about everything
that you can possibly see, whichI think is speaks to how a man
(15:24):
is.
He's he sometimes men speakabout like they're possibly see,
which I think speaks to how aman is Sometimes men speak about
like they're in their box oftheir wife right now, and so
he's just going off everythinghe can possibly see and he just
lists it off, which is actuallya great technique.
He's not sitting there going togo like, and I cannot wait to
spend the next 15 years with youthinking about strolling
through the park of our one dayhappiness he's talking about
(15:46):
right now.
I'm really into you, I see you,you're beautiful to me, I'm
excited about you, and that iswhat's.
That's what preheats her to apoint where she feels seen.
Is that?
Is that true?
Speaker 4 (15:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
I think for me, the reason why the knowing he wants
me, for me to truly connect, isimportant because of a porn
addiction as well, because Idon't know when it's oh, you
just need your fix so you don'tgo to something else, and when
it's truly like I want to beintimate and connect on a deeper
(16:23):
level with you.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
And I think if a guy initiates the same way every
single time, then the women feellike they're being used for the
same thing, or the reason forthe sex is the same thing every
single time.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Okay, but let's talk about that, because I did talk
about sex, specifically orgasmand all that that that means In
the last part, last verse, godsays eat, drink, eat, friends,
drink and be drunk with love.
God is pleased by sex and joywithin his design.
I talked about how there's ahugging neuropeptide, a jealous
(17:03):
neuropeptide, a jealousneuropeptide, the dopamine
reward neurotransmitter.
That all explodes in the brainas you have sex.
And what dopamine does?
It creates desire, pleasure,desire to do it again.
Oxytocin is a bonding.
You feel like this is my person.
I'm one with you.
A vasopressin that's releasedis a mate-guarding neuropeptide
(17:28):
which makes it.
This is my person I'm supposedto be guarding and jealous of
and I want her to be mine.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
What we talked about is that so cool, it is wild how
God wired the brain.
It's so cool and what I saidwhat wires together fires
together.
And what we talked about is howthe brain has a neuroplasticity
that allows it to conform todesire and enjoy monogamous
relationship with your spouse,okay.
(17:56):
However, what porn does is itmesses up the neural pathways
and creates new neural pathways,and you bond to pixels instead
of a person, and that's aproblem.
And so what we said was thatyou could, and the problem, when
you don't have oxytocin andvasopressin bonding you to your
spouse, you then need a harderand harder and harder
(18:20):
pornography so that you can havethe dopamine reward happen.
And so what we said was likeGod can redeem, through the
grace of God, but also the wayhe designed the brain to conform
through oxytocin, throughvasopressin, through the
(18:40):
dopamine neurotransmitters, toenjoy the wife of their youth
again.
But to your point, this is whereI think it's hard for men and
this is the part I need you tobe super honest and vulnerable
and all the things Because itmight be that he's needing to
have sex with you so that he canovercome a porn addiction.
(19:01):
It might be that he's havingsex with you because he wants to
have sex with you becauseyou're his wife.
How does a man who has had aporn addiction, be vulnerable
about that, lead through thatwhen it's so hurtful and so
what's the right word?
(19:21):
You probably give a betterdescription traumatic even to
experience not being enough, Iguess, or the feeling that it's
about you and not about hisissue.
Yeah, how is a husband tocommunicate to his wife in a way
that doesn't take away from themarriage?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Does that make sense, I think first he needs to fully
invite her into the battle withhim.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
How did Pablo do that with you?
A lot of long conversationsabout where his addiction
stemmed from.
A lot of reassurance on hispart that it has nothing to do
with me.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Because it never does have anything to do with the
spouse, even though it surefeels like it.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
It feels like it.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Yep.
Um yeah, the daily check-ins.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
What are those daily check-ins?
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Um, he will like, before we go to bed, he'll let
me know how he did that day.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
And how hard is that for you now?
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Oh, it's not hard for me at all.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Really.
So you've gotten to a pointbecause you understand that it's
not about you and it's hisissue, so that when he says,
yeah, there's this girl I saw atthe gym, or this ad popped up
on my phone and you're, and howdo you handle that?
Speaker 3 (20:37):
I pray over him.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
And you pray over him , and you pray the gospel over
him.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Yeah, and then we assess if there was anything he
could have done better.
Like a lot of times it's oh, myquiet time was lacking or I
didn't pray before going intothe grocery store.
So just asking like, okay, whatcan we do tomorrow so that this
doesn't happen again?
Wow, Um so that this doesn'thappen again, wow, so that
there's also some form ofaccountability there, and then
praying over one another, andthen I mean you just choose to
(21:02):
forgive, okay, so I think.
Y'all are awesome.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
You guys are so amazing.
I think when men or a man or awoman hearing this, they'd say
there is no way I could tell mywife because she would lose her
ever living mind and guns wouldcome out like violence would
ensue Like.
I think there's a real fearhere that if I were to let her
know of what's really going onin my soul, I would break her
(21:30):
Talk to me about that and Idon't know if you had that
experience.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
Yeah, this is actually something that just
happened at re-engage this lasttime around, because the goal of
re-engage is for you to open upthe one percent that you
haven't shared with your spouseoh, wow yeah, and we've done it
like three times now and I'vejust been like man, what's my
one percent like?
I feel like we've talked abouteverything you know, and then it
hit me that there was like acertain type of porn that I
(21:58):
would like to watch and I wasreally ashamed of it and I felt
like if Bree knew that, that shewould just look at me different
, that she would think I'mdisgusting, and mostly because I
thought those things of myself.
And so I got convicted of it.
And then I told her about itand I told her I was like scared
(22:20):
to say it and she likeconvinced me, like there's
nothing that you could do thatwould make me look at you any
differently.
And then I finally shared itwith her and I was super scared
and she laughed because of likehow how much I thought this was
gonna affect us and she was likethat's it, like so, um, even
(22:44):
though it's like really scary, Ithink it I don't know it
definitely brought us closer andit made me feel a lot more
secure in our marriage becauseyou know, something that I
thought was like the worst thingabout myself she is just like
it's not that bad, you know.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
I don't know if you had something else in mind?
Well, I also want to make apoint that we didn't go from.
Oh, I need to work through thisporn addiction and invite my
wife into having theseconversations right away Like
this was years of like.
First he had to have aconversation with me like how
much do you like?
I struggle with this.
I want to overcome it.
I need your help.
(23:23):
How much do you want to know?
Because, there's some women outthere who they don't want to
know they just want to know didyou watch porn or not?
they don't want to know what ledyou, what temptations you were
overcoming, like they don't wantto know many details.
So I think it's first want toknow what led you, what
temptations you were overcoming.
They don't want to know manydetails, so I think it's first
important to know what your wifecan and can't handle, because
what I can handle now is notwhat I could handle back then.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
So how did you grow in that?
How did you?
Speaker 3 (23:47):
know what you could handle and not handle.
I think it was just baby steps.
Once I started to handle him,just telling me when he slipped
up and reacting better to that,then I could start to handle.
Okay, well, what little sins?
Not little sins, but littletemptations.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Right.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Did you fall victim to throughout the day, or I
think it was just.
It was a lot of personal growthwithin my own faith that got me
there too.
Um, and then counseling uhhelped as well.
Um, but yeah.
(24:28):
So then, once you get to thatpoint, whatever your wife is
okay with now, you have to holdup your end of the deal.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Of confessing it.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Of confessing it.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Yeah, I love that and I think you guys are just.
I feel like more couples shouldfeel confident, coming to you
guys and say like, hey, walk usthrough this, and this is why
community is so important, likethe fact that you guys are so
open about this struggle thatyou guys have overcome allows
more people to go like, hey, Ithink I can overcome this and I
need your help.
Uh, so when does re-engagestart?
Speaker 3 (24:59):
August 9th.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
All right, we've got a couple more months, it's fine,
we'll, uh, just suffer untilthen.
No, I think I think what you'resaying is like hey, you can
still meet with people and walkthem through a little bit of
this before we formalize it, andthere's tons of counseling
available and we'd love to helpyou out.
Yeah, the other part that Iwant to talk about just briefly
was, um, when, when the husbandand wife in song and Solomon
four, he says before he theyhave intercourse, he says, until
(25:22):
the day breathes and theshadows flee, I will go away to
the mountain of myrrh and thehill of frankincense.
You're all together, beautiful,my love, there's no flaw in you
.
And what he was saying there islike I'm content with your
breasts and above until you'reready for me to have intercourse
with you.
I'm so in love with you.
Waiting for me is no problem.
I can make sure you'repreheated fully until that
(25:44):
moment comes.
And I thought there wassomething very gentle about that
.
And he does something where hemakes the woman the standard of
beauty.
I think Holland, you broughtthat up to me as we were talking
about this week the womanbecomes is the standard of
beauty, not the comparison ofthe culture, which she probably
(26:04):
might have to work in her ownmind to wrap her head around.
But to understand that she isperfect for him is a huge part
of a woman's own mindset for sexto happen.
Would you agree with that?
Is there ever any other crazythoughts going through your head
?
If I'm not enough, he'sthinking about I'm too, whatever
(26:24):
, whatever.
Is that ever a thing for you?
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
How do you get your brain to like calm down or I
don't even know if that's theright word but how do you get to
focus?
Speaker 3 (26:32):
I just tell him hey, this is what I'm feeling, that's
the right word.
But how do you get to focus?
I just tell him hey, this iswhat I'm feeling, oh wow.
And then he usually justreassures me.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
That's beautiful, I think, that assurance, and if
men can initiate that assurance,that becomes a huge aspect.
Way to go, pablo.
I think the other part here isthe next verse, when he says
come with me from Lebanon, mybride.
Come with me from Lebanon,depart from the peak of Amman,
from the peak of Sinir andHermon.
He's saying I need you to leavethe past great things behind.
(26:59):
He's talking about where shewas, from her hometown, where
they could see the mountains,but then also says from the dens
of lions, from the mountains ofleopards, also for the dangers.
Focus on me in this moment anddon't have all the other ADHD
moments of your brain going inthis moment and don't have all
the other ADHD moments of yourbrain going, firing off, because
you need to focus on the, onwho's in front of you, and then,
(27:19):
on top of that, marriage wise,it's so important to leave and
to cleave.
Have you like, have you two hadany issues leaving and cleaving
like, is there still a part ofyou, bree, that was ever stuck
with your family, or you're like, ah, we're out?
Speaker 3 (27:33):
I don't think now yeah, we went through this but
we went through it.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Yeah, how?
What was the issue?
What I love about, uh, podcaststhat are live.
You just never know when you'rea step on a landmine.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
So go ahead, pablo yeah, uh, you know this, you
walk through this with that'strue um, basically, here's the
deal.
So we were I'll try to make itshort, but it's a long story uh,
we're living together, um,boyfriend and girlfriend.
And the more serious we got inour faith, we started getting
(28:11):
convicted of that and so we werelike, okay, we need to get
married.
Like we, we always wanted toget married.
And so one weekend, breeze outof town, I go to her parents and
I asked for her hand inmarriage and they basically said
not yet.
And they had certain thingsthat they wanted me to improve
on, which I didn't agree withany of them at the time, but I
(28:34):
was like, hey, I respected themenough to come and ask for their
hand, so I'm going to berespectful enough and just try
to work on these things and makesure that we get their blessing
.
So, anyways, I started workingon these things.
Eight months go by and I'm like,okay, like I feel like I
improved on all of them and theyhaven't said anything.
So I go to them again and I'mlike, hey, you know, here's the
(28:58):
things you mentioned, here's howI've improved.
I just want to know if there'slike any updates.
And they weren't like veryhappy about that, oh gosh.
But um, they finally like saidyes.
So I was like cool.
So as for brie for hand inmarriage, uh, we get engaged and
the plan was we were gonna haveour actual wedding like a year
(29:21):
later.
So we're gonna be engaged for ayear because this is what her
parents thought was best.
Okay, well, there's that.
This is why you need a wife,because she's you know she's
better memory, yeah anyways.
So some time go by and you know,still feeling convicted because
we're still not married, livingtogether in sexual sin, and so
(29:46):
we start praying, eloped, and so, uh, we pray about it and then,
um get to a point where I'mlike, okay, I think I should
probably move out.
And so I move out, I go livewith.
I lived with two differentpeople for probably a total of
(30:08):
like six months, um, and thenthe living situation fell
through um and I had to comeback home.
So we're living together again,still convicted, and I'm like,
man, what do we do?
And so I'm praying about it.
I'm praying about it and veryclearly I felt God telling us
like this is the time to getmarried, like you need to get
(30:31):
eloped, and this was stillprobably like six months out
from the wedding.
I don't know, it was a long timeout from the wedding and I knew
brie wasn't going to be happyabout it because she wanted to
make sure we had her parentsblessing and approval.
But I was like this is whatgod's telling me to do and this
is what we're going to do.
And so go and have thatconversation with her parents.
(30:54):
And they were very happy.
Um well, sorry, before theconversation.
This is where what you askedapplies because, um, the reason
brie didn't want to get elopedyet was because of the approval
from her mom and her dad, right,which was understandable up to
the point where what they'reasking of us was interfering
(31:15):
with what God was asking of us.
And I remember I had thisconversation with you and, I
think, with Robert, where I waslike well, you know, technically
, in the eyes of Texas, we'remarried because under what's the
law called Common law marriage.
I was like we're married andyou're like yeah, no, you're not
.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
No, and whatever I was like we're married and
you're like, yeah, no, you'renot, no, so and whatever I was
like what did I say?
Speaker 4 (31:40):
yeah, um, and then you literally sent me on like a
prayer walk where I walked likefive miles praying, that's good
and then you're like, and thentell me what god says when you
come back, and I was like crap,so, uh, so that was the case,
and that's when you helped merealize, though, is the reason
why well, one, the reason why wedon't want to go and get
married is there's somethingstopping it.
(32:01):
It's not just, you know, wewant to please her parents,
whatever, and that's when werealized that brie still wasn't
fully.
She didn't, uh, leave andcleave onto me yet, because she
was so worried about what herparents opinion was on this
whole situation that she wasallowing that to affect her,
coming under my authority, likeshe was basically still under
(32:23):
her dad's authority and notunder mine, obviously, because
we hadn't been married yet.
Speaker 5 (32:27):
But the point is so far she wasn't like making the
transition yeah
Speaker 4 (32:33):
and so once we talked about that and realized that,
then she was like okay, like godis calling us to do this and
even if my parents don't agree,it's more important that we're
obeying to god than to what theywant.
Because it was, it was trulybased out of an opinion, it
wasn't anything biblical, it wasjust like we don't want you to
have a shotgun wedding.
And we we were like, okay, sowe go and have the conversation
(32:57):
with them.
It did not go well at all.
Her mom was a little moreunderstanding.
Her dad wasn't understanding atall.
He like flipped out.
But I basically told him likehey, this is what we're going to
do, like I'm trying to beobedient to God, I don't want to
live in sin, and that's whatwe're going to do.
(33:17):
And so at the end of it kind ofworked out for everyone,
because there's this thing whereit's not a an actual marriage
certificate, but it's a.
But I thought it was like acertificate.
It was a certificate for commonlaw marriage, but it it.
I remember this.
It was different certificatefor common law marriage, but it
it.
I remember this.
It was different from like anactual marriage certificate,
(33:40):
because your parents acceptedthat and they were like, sure,
if that's what you want to doand that works for you, that's
fine.
But in their eyes we stillweren't married even though we
would file taxes as it were.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
We had documentation like the government said we were
married so we are married.
Speaker 4 (34:04):
So you got married.
Plex signed it.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
I signed the other one yeah, what a confusing time
yeah, did y'all have likeanother ceremony or something.
Speaker 5 (34:19):
Chris did it and you pronounced them husband and wife
, so you guys are married yeah,we did an actual ceremony.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
I don't remember what happened in that interim it was
very confusing, and if you'reconfused, you can imagine how I
felt.
I was just trying to do theright thing and it was a lot
more complicated.
If you're confused, you canimagine how I felt I was just
trying to do the right thing andit was a lot more complicated
than that.
Speaker 5 (34:44):
So how are things now with your parents?
Speaker 4 (34:45):
Oh, they're great.
Speaker 5 (34:47):
That was a rough start.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
You know, what.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
I think her dad respected me a lot more because
I stood for what I believed inand I think he wasn't expecting
that.
He was expecting me to just belike okay, like we'll just do
what you want.
So at first it was like kind ofawkward and you know just weird
.
But like after we grew so muchcloser, like we're way closer
(35:11):
today and I think it has a lotto do you and her dad, yeah,
yeah, that's awesome so awesome.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
I guess the real question I had was did you ever
have any issues of her, when youwere married, leaving and
cleaving?
Was there a part of it that wasdifficult for her to leave
traditions of her house to starta new family with you?
Was that ever a difficult thing?
Why that ever a difficult thing?
(35:44):
Why you're talking yeah, yougotta talk into the microphone
because you know we're on apodcast.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
They can't see.
I'm very set in my family'straditions on holidays and like
wanting to be with my parentsand my siblings on holidays oh
wow, how does that go over withyou?
Speaker 4 (35:54):
pablo.
Now it's better.
I think I was bitter at firstbecause I don't have family here
, so I was tired of seeing herfamily all the time.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Oh, gosh, I'm just being honest.
Call it like it is, that's good, all right.
Yeah, this is live marriagecounseling everyone.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
All right.
So you guys, I'm just tellingthe truth.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
So how did you guys move through?
That we now alternate holidaysoh good, good for you, that's
very.
Do you like where?
Speaker 4 (36:27):
because is your family in california they're in
florida, florida, okay, yeah, soI'm in california okay, wow,
that is awesome.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
You guys have done a good job at figuring out your
traditions over time.
All right, I want to get tothis last one that you brought
up a question earlier that youhad.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
When you were talking .
Are there neuropathways?
Is that what they're?
Speaker 1 (36:47):
called Neuropathways.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
yeah, yeah when you were talking about rewiring the
brain.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Yeah, what fires together?
Wires together.
Yeah, yeah, what fires together, wires together.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
Yeah, you dropped in the.
You're able to rewire yourbrain for your wife and not a
porn addiction.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
But then you also dropped in.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
If you have homosexual tendencies, you can
rewire that too.
My question is how?
Yeah, it's the same For both.
How so?
Speaker 1 (37:13):
there are a lot.
Here's what you may not knowbeing a pastor, you counsel a
lot of guys that are having sexwith men while they're married
to their wife, and so, uh,that's a thing, and so you can,
if you or can look at, they canor look at gay porn or whatever,
and you can rewire your brainto be, um, attracted to your
(37:37):
wife.
So that was it was in my headas I was preaching that, and now
, now as I'm putting togetherwhat you, what you probably
heard, was like, you just needto go have sex with women and
then you, or you know, go to thestrip club and you'll be cured.
And that's not, not what I wasadvocating.
I, I do appreciate that thatviewpoint.
Don't go to the strip club,holland.
Speaker 5 (38:00):
Got it.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
But I do have Jordan Smith here.
So Jordan struggles withsame-sex attraction and when you
hear that does it feel hopelessto you.
Give me your thoughts on that.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Rewiring the brain.
Yeah, not hopeless.
I mean, I think you have youropinion.
Do I believe that same opinion,I don't know?
I have been thinking throughrecently of if you trust God and
God can do anything, then is ittrue faith to just pursue a
woman even if you have noattraction?
It's kind of what I'm workingthrough right now.
(38:39):
Yeah, is that scientific Amen?
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Yeah, yeah, about how your brain like I mean, it's
not solely on environmentmatters what you believe matters
, there's everything.
It's a holistic approachbecause you're not just pure
matter, you're also spirit,You're also emotion, you're also
a lot of that stuff.
But God helps you out indeveloping the neural pathways
(39:06):
so that you are attracted toyour spouse for monogamy.
That's that purpose.
So, yes, and it's like a partof the picture, not the full
picture.
Speaker 5 (39:17):
Theologically, we understand that your desires are
malleable, yep.
Your, what you think is rightor good or beautiful and
attractive can change Yep, andchanges over time in a lot of
ways, but especially from goingfrom an unbeliever to a believer
, and you know you have passageslike Romans 12,.
(39:38):
Do not be conformed to thepattern of this world, but be
transformed by the renewal ofyour mind.
Like our minds can be renewed,our desires, our hearts, what we
find, yeah, attractive, can betransformed by God and can be
transformed even naturally,biologically, through, like the
(39:59):
stuff that you're talking about.
When you say rewire the brain,you're essentially saying
through natural, notsupernatural, means of God
giving you new desires.
You're saying through naturalmeans, what we like and desire
can be changed based on certainthings that we do.
So, but then the question ofyeah, yeah, I don't know.
(40:19):
I'd want to hear everyone'sthoughts on this yeah, yeah my,
my thoughts on you.
Know, should you just marrysomeone that you're not
attracted to?
Like that's what you're saying,right?
Should I just have faith, finda godly woman, marry her even if
I'm not sexually or physicallyattracted to it, right?
Speaker 2 (40:34):
right, and I believe that's what you're implying as
well, right.
Speaker 5 (40:41):
So I think, like number one, sexual attraction is
not a prerequisite for marriageRight.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
I think everyone kind of assumes that it is,
Especially in our modern culture, right, but back in the day of
arranged marriages, you may nothave, you know you get what you
get.
Speaker 5 (40:58):
It's not a condition for marriage.
It's not like when.
And also, I think, if you justlook at, there's a lot of
marriages where women, a lot ofwomen, are not attracted to
their husbands Right, and that'sa normal thing and so.
But you know, what you read inSong of Solomon is like, you see
, like that verse, there's noflaw in you.
What you read in Song ofSolomon is like, you see, like
(41:20):
that verse, there's no flaw inyou.
You see someone who is focusingon recognizing the beauty of
the other person.
And so you don't have to like.
I can even like.
I do not struggle with same-sexattraction, but I can look and
be like you're a good lookingdude and I can recognize man.
You got a nice beard going onthere, chris.
Speaker 4 (41:38):
Don't lie in the church, bro, come on.
Speaker 5 (41:42):
And you're like a strong dude, you're healthy, you
can recognize athleticism orfitness or handsomeness or
beauty or whatever, and a manand a woman.
We do this like even your—Because you do it with like cars
or houses, or your mom.
Like mom, you look beautiful,your daughter know you look
beautiful in your prom dress orwhatever.
Right your brother, you lookhandsome.
(42:04):
Um, you can recognize thosethings without being necessarily
like attracted to a person,sexually attracted right, yeah
and so, within the context oflike a marriage you could still
like if you don't you don't havea sexual attraction to someone,
you can still recognize theirbeauty and speak those things
and call them out to encouragethe person you can be.
(42:26):
What you're really called to beattracted to in a person,
according to scripture, isgodliness.
Beauty is fleeting, charm isdeceitful, right, but a woman
who fears the Lord is to bepraised.
The fear of the Lord, godliness1 Peter, a gentle, quiet spirit
, which is very precious in thesight of God.
It's godliness that is meant tobe what we're attracted to,
(42:47):
right More than anything else.
And if you make physicalattraction essential to marriage
, you really ruin, I think, thecore of what marriage is, which
is covenant commitment.
Were you attracted to your wife?
Yeah, so yes, and I think mywife's beautiful.
But what was most attractive tome about her was her heart for
(43:12):
God.
Because here's the deal If Imake her physical beauty, what
is like, that's the mostimportant thing.
She gets in a car accident andthe side of her face gets burned
off, she loses an arm,something like that, and she
just doesn't look the same.
If that's what our marriage isbased off, well, that's gone,
now Gone.
But if our marriage is based offI'm attracted to your heart for
(43:33):
God and I'm committed to you ina covenant commitment that no
matter, you know, car wreck orsickness and sickness and health
for richer or poorer, then youknow, like that, that's what
marriage is really about.
Is that covenantal love andcommitment and the and an
attraction based on a fear ofthe Lord.
So that's, that's my.
That's why I would support youin saying, hey, if there's a
(43:56):
godly woman at this church,you're like man, she's following
Jesus and there's no sexualattraction.
I would say praise the Lord,you're not lusting.
That's a good thing.
Win, and I think if you were to, you know, go on a date with
her and you know you guys, youboth love the Lord and you were
to get married or something youknow you take those steps.
I think the Lord, what Chris istalking about, could rewire,
(44:19):
even through natural means, butalso supernatural.
God give me a desire.
I think the Lord can workthrough that and that it's right
and good and that that is.
The God created male and femalefor each other and he blesses
that.
I think I would be supportiveof that and I think a godly
woman who feared the Lord wouldbe supportive of that as well.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
I mean, I wouldn't lie to her, but at the same time
I would be like here's whereI'm at, and the thing that's
really great about you, jordan,is that I mean, here we are on
live podcast streaming tomillions and millions of twos
out there where people can hear,see and go.
Oh, there's a real guy who lovesJesus, who's struggling with
(45:03):
real sinful desire but wants toovercome by the power of the
blood and testimony, all thatand I'm willing to get to know
him and you're a deep friend.
You're a kind of go-all-the-wayfriend, so you're not like a
surface-level person, you lovethe deeper things, you think
(45:24):
about things, and so a womanwould be really attracted to
that and you could probably belike, hey, let me get up.
Song of Solomon, chapter 4.
Your hair is like a flock ofgoats running down Gilead.
You could probably say that andmean it, and it'd be really
sweet and beautiful.
And I think that that's the partwhere I challenge you and our
(45:44):
listeners out there, like ifyou're struggling in a sinful
desire, then obviously you wantto orient your heart towards
Jesus, and the best thing youcan do is become a friend of a
woman that's single, and thenlet's see where God takes it.
I would not be against thateither, so I'm encouraged.
I totally agree with Holland,and I think I've said that to
(46:06):
you before, but I'm excited forthat.
Let's just see what happens.
I would love to see what theLord does with you as you start
to take a step of faith,although it's challenging, and
we've all known people that hadhomosexual background tendencies
and then they did get marriedand they flourished.
And there are couples at thischurch that have experienced
(46:26):
just that and are living for theLord now, even though they've
had a history of gay pornographyin their past, and so that's
something I can kind of look atand go like.
I've seen the proof in couplesat our church, and now walking
them into freedom with Jesus ispretty great.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
That's exciting.
Speaker 5 (46:50):
I'm kind of Bree.
What do you think about?
Like, let's say, Pablo, youknow you guys were dating and
maybe, maybe, like a different,you know it would be a different
story than y'all's story.
But say you're just, you'redating, and he and he's just
like hey, I'm not like here'swhat I've struggled with in the
past and I'm not like physicallyattracted to you and but I do
(47:11):
think you're like a beautifulperson.
Um, you know, I love your heartfor God, you know, and I would
love to be in a relationshipwith you, but that aspect wasn't
there.
But you knew he was going tolike love you and serve you and
protect you and provide for youand be a spiritual leader, like
what?
What do you think about that?
How would you receive that?
Speaker 3 (47:32):
Personally, I would be like this isn't going to work
out but, that's me Like that tome it's I need to.
I struggle with physicalappearance so I need someone who
will reassure me that they areattracted to me.
That's something I look for inmy spouse.
I do know there are women outthere who that's not a priority
to them.
There's actually a couple inthis church I won't say their
(47:55):
names because I don't know howpublic they want it but their
testimony is one of my favoriteswhere he straight up told her
I'm interested in pursuing you,I'm not attracted to you.
And she was like that's fineand the attraction came later on
and that's awesome.
But it does take a very specialwoman who's very confident in
herself already to be willing todo that.
That's kind of who you want andthat couple's super happily
(48:17):
married now, which is reallygreat.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
That's a great story in and of itself.
That has a woman ofself-confidence through the roof
.
It just shows that she wasraised by loving parents who
told her it's not about whatother people think, you're
awesome and loved.
That's a lot of love thatyou've received.
(48:43):
So then, like, endure that.
And then like, I think, she feltcalled by God to marry him, and
as odd as that sounds, um,which ultimately we knew it was
true when, uh, they said I do,but I do feel like that.
That's a great picture of that,of like he now finds her very
attractive and it's it's a wildpicture of that of he now finds
her very attractive, and it's awild thing.
Speaker 5 (49:01):
So we used to do apartment life and at our
apartment there was a bunch ofIndian couples, who all Hindu
Indian couples.
Most were arranged marriages.
And my wife was asking one ofthem one time they were getting
to know each other a little bitand she was like arrange
marriage, like what are yourthoughts?
Like what you know, what wasthat like?
(49:23):
And she was like well, I didnot used to like him or be
attracted to him, and now I amand he's my baby now.
And that was her response andit was just like and they about
it?
I did not like him, I was notattracted to him and he's my
baby now.
Yeah, I think that's the thingthat you're talking about with
the oxytocin.
(49:43):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
I mean like it couldn't be more clear from that
example, and I think in ourculture that has created for us
the romantic we fell in love atfirst sight.
I don't want to call itcomplete garbage, but we've
overemphasized a beauty that isso subjective and changes over
(50:06):
time.
And if your brain is designedto fall in love with that which
you have sex with, then whatcomes first?
I think the problem for a lotof us is we're having a lot of
sex before we have a lot ofcommitment, and so therefore, in
a transactional relationshipyou better have the body,
because I will find another onewho does.
In a covenantal relationship isyou're with me, no matter what.
(50:27):
And to what I'm talking aboutwith you, jordan, is.
The covenantal relationshipthat we're talking about is so
much greater than a physicalattraction.
It's covenantal, it's buildinga fabric of society, building
family together, representingJesus and the church.
And in some ways you have anadvantage because you're not
(50:48):
skewed by the world and you haveto look a certain look for me
to be into you, but rather I'mgoing to trust God and love you
as Christ loved the church,because that's what I'm called
to do, and that takes thepressure off, I think probably
for the woman in many ways tohave to live up to some sort of
beauty standard.
Anyway, that's what I thoughton that.
(51:09):
Cool, there you go.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
That's there you go All right.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Any other thoughts on that?
We spent a lot of time on thisparticular podcast.
Speaker 3 (51:19):
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
Yeah, all right.
Hey, listen, we love talkingfaith, culture, everything in
between, and very excited aboutSong of Solomon, chapter four,
and very excited about Song ofSolomon, chapter five, which
Pastor Mo will be bringing thisweekend.
So very excited for him to talkabout what happens when a
relationship gets a little rocky.
So, from our house to yours,have an awesome week of worship.
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec, andjoining me in studio is none
other than the motas.
They have ezekiel and one onthe way over there.
What do you do, brie?
Like end of july end of julyand I also have pastor Holland
Gregg from the EastsideCommunity Church.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
Hello.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Pastor Holland welcome.
And then I also have JordanSmith Excited to be here,
Forensics expert Just keepingthat going.
Well listen, I think it's trueand.
I believe in your forensicskills, all right, so we are
talking about Song of Solomon,chapter 4.
And, holland, I think youpreached this back in the day at
(00:47):
Eastside in the 2020.
Back in the day, indeed, andthis is where we talked about
sex, and so if you've got youngones around, we're going to talk
about sex.
So this is where you get themaway from your screen or put
your headphones on as you watch.
So, listen, we've been talkingabout God's design for sex, and
(01:08):
one of the things that we madenote of is that God's Word has
everything we need for life,godliness, salvation and
sanctification, for having sexand also for parenting.
I throw parenting in therebecause I think sometimes
parents are like where's thepart of how to be a good dad or
how to be a good mom?
The Proverbs is a great placeto start for that.
(01:30):
Solomon is great to work onyour marriage.
Proverbs is great to work onyour parenting, and so I bring
that up because we're gettinginto the scripture and it is
very graphic of Solomon'sdescription of his bride, where
he goes over her eyes, her hair,her teeth, her lips, her cheeks
(01:50):
, her neck and then to herbreasts, and he is enjoying
every aspect of his wife, andwhat I said there is that the
groom initiated affection due tohis bride, which I got from 1
Corinthians 7.3, where it sayslet the husband rend to his wife
the affection due her.
Or, as ESV says, the husbandshould give to his wife her
(02:13):
conjugal rights, which I thoughtwas sort of funny because
conjugal rights seem a littlebit not quite as intimate or
maybe just seem a little rougherthan affection.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
I was just like that's sort of odd.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Anyway, the reason why I bring that up is Jesus
loves the church and husbandsand wives are to represent the
picture of Jesus and his church,render the affection first.
It is the husband's duty, job,obligation, role and
responsibility to render or togive his wife the affection that
(02:51):
is due to her.
Have you guys seen that besomething that men push back on
in your premarital maritalcounseling?
That you guys have seen?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yes A lot Definitely, and how have you seen that?
Speaker 1 (03:10):
What do you mean by that?
You've had a lot of couplescome through some re-engage
where they're really talkingabout the intimate stuff of
their life, and it seems likethe men go passive here and the
women are the ones that arereally rendering the affection
due.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Well, yeah, the men are all like, like, oh, our sex
life is great, no complaints.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
and then when we split off men and women, it's
all complaints from the women no, I don't want you to get into
any specific person, butgenerally, what are some of the
complaints that you've heard?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
um that he just though she's ready for bed and
he's just feeling up on herexpecting something there's no
like there's no preheating,there's no, there's no
preheating love and there's nosweet talking.
It's just straight to the point, and then the woman will feel
either obligated or pressured,or the men feel rejected.
(04:08):
Right.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
And that's essential.
I think that what you havedescribed is how most of the
marriages I've coached initiallystart off is that the man does
not think about sex until he'sin the bedroom, because men are
like waffles, women are likespaghetti, and so women are sort
of thinking, oh, if he wantedit, he would be talking about it
all day, and men are like ifit's not in front of me, I don't
(04:31):
see it.
And I think that's part of theproblem, especially into
marriage, because you'veforgotten the art of the romance
, because something happened.
What do you think?
Holland?
Speaker 5 (04:42):
Yeah, sounds good.
I agree.
The art of, did you say the artof the romance?
The art of the romance, the artof the romance, yeah, yeah.
The groom in Song of Solomon, amaster of the art of the
romance.
Yeah, he is the master of theart of the romance.
(05:03):
Masterful with his words,masterful with showing affection
, communicating desire,communicating expectations.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Yeah, puts a lot of men to shame, yeah, but you know
, is meant to be a model Acouple of things I saw here is
that and this might be helpful,I think, if you understood the
wedding day and why thatprobably felt like a microwave
moment is because the woman hasbeen preparing for the wedding
(05:33):
day.
It's been an agreed-upon day,she knows it's coming, the day
of she's fully engaged, thinkingabout all that, her dress,
she's wearing it, for the waythat it's going to eventually
come off.
I mean, there's all of thatthat goes into it.
And the guy, he just shows upand he's happy to be there and
doesn't understand the amount ofpreparation and work that's
(05:54):
gone into this day.
So then afterwards, whenevercouples are married, the man
does not realize the work thatgoes into getting the woman
prepared for sex and so he showsup just like he did on the
wedding day, not knowing there'sa lot of other factors that
help the woman get preheated,and I feel like that's the
problem.
And so also we need to havehusbands and wives kind of think
(06:16):
.
Remember they're just likeJesus in the church and so we
love, the church loves Jesus,because he first loved us.
And so men, knowing thatexample of initiating affection
and initiating all that, justlike the husband is seen here,
that becomes imperative kind ofum.
Parse this out is the calendarhelpful in getting a woman ready
(06:49):
, uh, to get preheated for sex?
Is that helpful for you to likeknow when that date is coming?
Speaker 3 (06:57):
for me?
No, I think just looking at mycalendar and seeing sex on there
is really weird.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
No, but like, if he, yes, you don't write sex on the
calendar.
What you do write is hey, we'regoing to this restaurant or
we're going and spending, ohlike planning date night yes.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Then yes, but.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
I also think like the calendar is very literal, like
if you know when you come homefrom work, you want something
like you said you come home fromwork, you want something like
you said make a little commentbefore you leave.
Text something nice throughoutthe day, don't text can we have
sex tonight?
Speaker 1 (07:31):
right, like be more romantic, more words um, because
talk to me about the more words, because I I think men don't
understand more words, becausein general we think words are
just a means to a straight endof communication, and for a
woman it's a lot more.
(07:52):
It says so much more than justI want sex now.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Yeah, I can't.
Can I say something real quick?
Speaker 4 (07:58):
Well, I thought of this earlier, but when you were
talking about the wedding nightand it seemed easy from the
guy's perspective.
If you think about it, thewedding day is probably one of
the days where the man is themost romantic in a relationship
like you write your vows yep,you dance, you look into each
other's eyes.
So, to the woman's side, it'slike everything she wants you
(08:22):
know, but then the next daywe're not.
We're not doing the same thing,you know, we don't?
Speaker 1 (08:28):
there's no.
There's no.
Uh, first dance there's no.
Uh.
Giving you know, feeding eachother cake?
Speaker 5 (08:34):
there's no speak for yourselves yeah, we feed each
other cake daily, daily in myhouse.
Yeah, that's good but?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
but imagine if you had a systematization,
systematization, systemized.
Speaker 5 (08:50):
A system.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
A system, thank you, a system where you understood
there were certain expectationsthat went along with it, because
a groom didn't make up thewhole wedding.
He's like you know, know, weshould probably have a first
dance.
That was like it's more likehey, what song are we gonna do
for our first dance?
You're, you're not, you're notasking what, you're asking how,
(09:13):
whereas I think for the rest ofyour lives you're like I don't
know, what do you want to do?
And that, I think, becomes theproblem for relationships,
because it feels like to thewoman she's wanting spontaneous
love and joy.
That looks like it's comingfrom the heart and he's just
like just give me the plan and Iwill work the plan.
Would you guys agree with that?
Speaker 3 (09:33):
yeah yeah, going back to the words thing, though, I
can't speak for every womanbecause every woman's different.
But for me, when I feelappreciated, or I feel like he
sees me, um, or I just hear itlike compliments, that
automatically makes me like,even if he's simply doing it to
(09:54):
truly appreciate me and has nointention of sex, I'm more
likely to initiate because Ifeel connected.
I feel like, oh, he sees me, hevalues me.
When you walk past your wife inthe kitchen and smack her butt
and that's your way ofindicating you want something
we're never going to pick, Iwill never pick up on that.
I think you're just being adude.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
Let me write this down.
Speaker 5 (10:19):
Because I feel like you're just like oh, let her
know.
You just shattered manyuniverses with that statement
right there.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
You just destroyed a lot of men, I feel like if
you're like, oh, preheat theoven, let her know, give her
hints.
A lot of men, those will betheir hints.
That's not the hints that uswomen want.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
So what is the hint?
That you want Words.
Words, got it Okay.
So as he gently taps yourbottom, as he passes you, you
need him to say what does he say?
Fill in the blank, help him out.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
I don't know, I can't give you an exact, but to me,
if it's just a constant touchingof boobs and butt, I think
you're simply a dude.
I don't think.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
I'm just laying it out, I'm being real, all right.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
No, I appreciate that we are real here at the
Passerplex podcast.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
To me that's not being romantic, that's not
uplifting your wife Like that'snot.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
So what you're saying is just coming up.
So one of the things I talkedabout is that seven second
kisses, because that is one ofthe ways that you can induce
saliva transfer and, uh, salivatransfer over time builds up
testosterone in the woman, whichmakes her arousal to be way
easier.
So would you be excited aboutseven second kisses from your
(11:38):
husband?
Speaker 3 (11:39):
yeah, and we've done that before oh awesome uh,
someone told us a long time agothat the best thing they did for
their marriage was make outevery night yeah with no
expectations of anything else,just make out every night and
that alone it's exactly resultedin a better sex life for them
yeah, all right, so.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
So so, kissing, kissing, uh, without expectation
of sex, even though how can Iput this?
Of course, the man has suchpure intention just to love her
in the moment, but there isprobably a hope that this will
lead to something more All right, so let's talk about that.
Is it okay to have non-sexualtouching, with the hope that
(12:22):
sexual touching will come later?
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Yeah, but I think that can't be your only.
I don't want to like put you onthe spot, but a big thing that
we worked through is he thoughthim walking past and touching or
walking past and giving me akiss was initiating or letting
me know.
But when you do that everysingle day, I don't know that.
I think that's just who you areand what you do.
(12:46):
So I think, if, if, yeah, Idon't know like you need to make
it.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
I think she might be a words of affirmation, girl, I
don't know like okay to methere's nothing special in that,
if oh wow there are days wherehe's rejecting me, but he was
still being physically well, hewas, word with words, rejecting
you but being with his, hishands, very accepting correct,
(13:14):
but then still didn't like thatwasn't a day that he wanted to
have sex.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
So I'm like how am I supposed to differentiate when
you're giving me hints and whenyou're just?
Speaker 1 (13:23):
so it would it be fair to say pablo, you're always
giving hints.
There's never a time that's nothoping for something more that's
exactly right okay, so it'spretty universally true, yeah,
yeah yeah, I think what men aretrying to do is is always
preheat, and so I think thismight be where it might be
helpful to help your husband outby saying, if you're wanting
sex, that's not getting you thatI need.
(13:45):
But then, of course, I feellike the spontaneity is a big
thing for women to feel likeit's not for another purpose,
it's for like the genuine justwanting to be with you.
Yeah, so I think that's reallyreally difficult to pull off,
but I do appreciate that youshared that.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
I think we I think we give.
I think you've talked aboutthis.
We give what we want, right?
So brie is a lot better atgiving me compliments and
telling me how good I look andlike I could literally care less
.
I actually don't like it whenshe does it okay, and that's a
hint to you.
Speaker 5 (14:24):
Yeah, sure, and then don't like it when she does it.
Okay, that's a hint to you.
Yeah, sure you don't like itwhen your wife tells you that
she's attracted to you.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
No, I mean, yeah, why ?
But in her words it's like oh,you look good today.
I'm just like, okay, what?
Speaker 5 (14:40):
do you?
Speaker 1 (14:41):
say then, of course, what do you say then?
I mean, what am I?
A piece of meat?
Speaker 4 (14:46):
Right, I feel used.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Oh, my God.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
No, but then for me, what I would want from her is
for her to just come up andtouch me, and so, naturally,
that's what I do to her.
Oh right but she doesn't reallywant that.
She wants me to give hercompliments.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Right, there you go, and so.
So it seems like the patternthat solomon's laying out here
is lots of words.
He's got a I think, as a pastormo said an arsenal of words at
his disposal of compliments andarsenal of compliments and he is
just boom, boom, boom, boom andhe's talking about everything
that you can possibly see, whichI think is speaks to how a man
(15:24):
is.
He's he sometimes men speakabout like they're possibly see,
which I think speaks to how aman is Sometimes men speak about
like they're in their box oftheir wife right now, and so
he's just going off everythinghe can possibly see and he just
lists it off, which is actuallya great technique.
He's not sitting there going togo like, and I cannot wait to
spend the next 15 years with youthinking about strolling
through the park of our one dayhappiness he's talking about
(15:46):
right now.
I'm really into you, I see you,you're beautiful to me, I'm
excited about you, and that iswhat's.
That's what preheats her to apoint where she feels seen.
Is that?
Is that true?
Speaker 4 (15:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
I think for me, the reason why the knowing he wants
me, for me to truly connect, isimportant because of a porn
addiction as well, because Idon't know when it's oh, you
just need your fix so you don'tgo to something else, and when
it's truly like I want to beintimate and connect on a deeper
(16:23):
level with you.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
And I think if a guy initiates the same way every
single time, then the women feellike they're being used for the
same thing, or the reason forthe sex is the same thing every
single time.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Okay, but let's talk about that, because I did talk
about sex, specifically orgasmand all that that that means In
the last part, last verse, godsays eat, drink, eat, friends,
drink and be drunk with love.
God is pleased by sex and joywithin his design.
I talked about how there's ahugging neuropeptide, a jealous
(17:03):
neuropeptide, a jealousneuropeptide, the dopamine
reward neurotransmitter.
That all explodes in the brainas you have sex.
And what dopamine does?
It creates desire, pleasure,desire to do it again.
Oxytocin is a bonding.
You feel like this is my person.
I'm one with you.
A vasopressin that's releasedis a mate-guarding neuropeptide
(17:28):
which makes it.
This is my person I'm supposedto be guarding and jealous of
and I want her to be mine.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
What we talked about is that so cool, it is wild how
God wired the brain.
It's so cool and what I saidwhat wires together fires
together.
And what we talked about is howthe brain has a neuroplasticity
that allows it to conform todesire and enjoy monogamous
relationship with your spouse,okay.
(17:56):
However, what porn does is itmesses up the neural pathways
and creates new neural pathways,and you bond to pixels instead
of a person, and that's aproblem.
And so what we said was thatyou could, and the problem, when
you don't have oxytocin andvasopressin bonding you to your
spouse, you then need a harderand harder and harder
(18:20):
pornography so that you can havethe dopamine reward happen.
And so what we said was likeGod can redeem, through the
grace of God, but also the wayhe designed the brain to conform
through oxytocin, throughvasopressin, through the
(18:40):
dopamine neurotransmitters, toenjoy the wife of their youth
again.
But to your point, this is whereI think it's hard for men and
this is the part I need you tobe super honest and vulnerable
and all the things Because itmight be that he's needing to
have sex with you so that he canovercome a porn addiction.
(19:01):
It might be that he's havingsex with you because he wants to
have sex with you becauseyou're his wife.
How does a man who has had aporn addiction, be vulnerable
about that, lead through thatwhen it's so hurtful and so
what's the right word?
(19:21):
You probably give a betterdescription traumatic even to
experience not being enough, Iguess, or the feeling that it's
about you and not about hisissue.
Yeah, how is a husband tocommunicate to his wife in a way
that doesn't take away from themarriage?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Does that make sense, I think first he needs to fully
invite her into the battle withhim.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
How did Pablo do that with you?
A lot of long conversationsabout where his addiction
stemmed from.
A lot of reassurance on hispart that it has nothing to do
with me.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Because it never does have anything to do with the
spouse, even though it surefeels like it.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
It feels like it.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Yep.
Um yeah, the daily check-ins.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
What are those daily check-ins?
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Um, he will like, before we go to bed, he'll let
me know how he did that day.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
And how hard is that for you now?
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Oh, it's not hard for me at all.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Really.
So you've gotten to a pointbecause you understand that it's
not about you and it's hisissue, so that when he says,
yeah, there's this girl I saw atthe gym, or this ad popped up
on my phone and you're, and howdo you handle that?
Speaker 3 (20:37):
I pray over him.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
And you pray over him , and you pray the gospel over
him.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Yeah, and then we assess if there was anything he
could have done better.
Like a lot of times it's oh, myquiet time was lacking or I
didn't pray before going intothe grocery store.
So just asking like, okay, whatcan we do tomorrow so that this
doesn't happen again?
Wow, Um so that this doesn'thappen again, wow, so that
there's also some form ofaccountability there, and then
praying over one another, andthen I mean you just choose to
(21:02):
forgive, okay, so I think.
Y'all are awesome.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
You guys are so amazing.
I think when men or a man or awoman hearing this, they'd say
there is no way I could tell mywife because she would lose her
ever living mind and guns wouldcome out like violence would
ensue Like.
I think there's a real fearhere that if I were to let her
know of what's really going onin my soul, I would break her
(21:30):
Talk to me about that and Idon't know if you had that
experience.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
Yeah, this is actually something that just
happened at re-engage this lasttime around, because the goal of
re-engage is for you to open upthe one percent that you
haven't shared with your spouseoh, wow yeah, and we've done it
like three times now and I'vejust been like man, what's my
one percent like?
I feel like we've talked abouteverything you know, and then it
hit me that there was like acertain type of porn that I
(21:58):
would like to watch and I wasreally ashamed of it and I felt
like if Bree knew that, that shewould just look at me different
, that she would think I'mdisgusting, and mostly because I
thought those things of myself.
And so I got convicted of it.
And then I told her about itand I told her I was like scared
(22:20):
to say it and she likeconvinced me, like there's
nothing that you could do thatwould make me look at you any
differently.
And then I finally shared itwith her and I was super scared
and she laughed because of likehow how much I thought this was
gonna affect us and she was likethat's it, like so, um, even
(22:44):
though it's like really scary, Ithink it I don't know it
definitely brought us closer andit made me feel a lot more
secure in our marriage becauseyou know, something that I
thought was like the worst thingabout myself she is just like
it's not that bad, you know.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
I don't know if you had something else in mind?
Well, I also want to make apoint that we didn't go from.
Oh, I need to work through thisporn addiction and invite my
wife into having theseconversations right away Like
this was years of like.
First he had to have aconversation with me like how
much do you like?
I struggle with this.
I want to overcome it.
I need your help.
(23:23):
How much do you want to know?
Because, there's some women outthere who they don't want to
know they just want to know didyou watch porn or not?
they don't want to know what ledyou, what temptations you were
overcoming, like they don't wantto know many details.
So I think it's first want toknow what led you, what
temptations you were overcoming.
They don't want to know manydetails, so I think it's first
important to know what your wifecan and can't handle, because
what I can handle now is notwhat I could handle back then.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
So how did you grow in that?
How did you?
Speaker 3 (23:47):
know what you could handle and not handle.
I think it was just baby steps.
Once I started to handle him,just telling me when he slipped
up and reacting better to that,then I could start to handle.
Okay, well, what little sins?
Not little sins, but littletemptations.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Right.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Did you fall victim to throughout the day, or I
think it was just.
It was a lot of personal growthwithin my own faith that got me
there too.
Um, and then counseling uhhelped as well.
Um, but yeah.
(24:28):
So then, once you get to thatpoint, whatever your wife is
okay with now, you have to holdup your end of the deal.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Of confessing it.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Of confessing it.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Yeah, I love that and I think you guys are just.
I feel like more couples shouldfeel confident, coming to you
guys and say like, hey, walk usthrough this, and this is why
community is so important, likethe fact that you guys are so
open about this struggle thatyou guys have overcome allows
more people to go like, hey, Ithink I can overcome this and I
need your help.
Uh, so when does re-engagestart?
Speaker 3 (24:59):
August 9th.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
All right, we've got a couple more months, it's fine,
we'll, uh, just suffer untilthen.
No, I think I think what you'resaying is like hey, you can
still meet with people and walkthem through a little bit of
this before we formalize it, andthere's tons of counseling
available and we'd love to helpyou out.
Yeah, the other part that Iwant to talk about just briefly
was, um, when, when the husbandand wife in song and Solomon
four, he says before he theyhave intercourse, he says, until
(25:22):
the day breathes and theshadows flee, I will go away to
the mountain of myrrh and thehill of frankincense.
You're all together, beautiful,my love, there's no flaw in you
.
And what he was saying there islike I'm content with your
breasts and above until you'reready for me to have intercourse
with you.
I'm so in love with you.
Waiting for me is no problem.
I can make sure you'repreheated fully until that
(25:44):
moment comes.
And I thought there wassomething very gentle about that
.
And he does something where hemakes the woman the standard of
beauty.
I think Holland, you broughtthat up to me as we were talking
about this week the womanbecomes is the standard of
beauty, not the comparison ofthe culture, which she probably
(26:04):
might have to work in her ownmind to wrap her head around.
But to understand that she isperfect for him is a huge part
of a woman's own mindset for sexto happen.
Would you agree with that?
Is there ever any other crazythoughts going through your head
?
If I'm not enough, he'sthinking about I'm too, whatever
(26:24):
, whatever.
Is that ever a thing for you?
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
How do you get your brain to like calm down or I
don't even know if that's theright word but how do you get to
focus?
Speaker 3 (26:32):
I just tell him hey, this is what I'm feeling, that's
the right word.
But how do you get to focus?
I just tell him hey, this iswhat I'm feeling, oh wow.
And then he usually justreassures me.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
That's beautiful, I think, that assurance, and if
men can initiate that assurance,that becomes a huge aspect.
Way to go, pablo.
I think the other part here isthe next verse, when he says
come with me from Lebanon, mybride.
Come with me from Lebanon,depart from the peak of Amman,
from the peak of Sinir andHermon.
He's saying I need you to leavethe past great things behind.
(26:59):
He's talking about where shewas, from her hometown, where
they could see the mountains,but then also says from the dens
of lions, from the mountains ofleopards, also for the dangers.
Focus on me in this moment anddon't have all the other ADHD
moments of your brain going inthis moment and don't have all
the other ADHD moments of yourbrain going, firing off, because
you need to focus on the, onwho's in front of you, and then,
(27:19):
on top of that, marriage wise,it's so important to leave and
to cleave.
Have you like, have you two hadany issues leaving and cleaving
like, is there still a part ofyou, bree, that was ever stuck
with your family, or you're like, ah, we're out?
Speaker 3 (27:33):
I don't think now yeah, we went through this but
we went through it.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Yeah, how?
What was the issue?
What I love about, uh, podcaststhat are live.
You just never know when you'rea step on a landmine.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
So go ahead, pablo yeah, uh, you know this, you
walk through this with that'strue um, basically, here's the
deal.
So we were I'll try to make itshort, but it's a long story uh,
we're living together, um,boyfriend and girlfriend.
And the more serious we got inour faith, we started getting
(28:11):
convicted of that and so we werelike, okay, we need to get
married.
Like we, we always wanted toget married.
And so one weekend, breeze outof town, I go to her parents and
I asked for her hand inmarriage and they basically said
not yet.
And they had certain thingsthat they wanted me to improve
on, which I didn't agree withany of them at the time, but I
(28:34):
was like, hey, I respected themenough to come and ask for their
hand, so I'm going to berespectful enough and just try
to work on these things and makesure that we get their blessing
.
So, anyways, I started workingon these things.
Eight months go by and I'm like,okay, like I feel like I
improved on all of them and theyhaven't said anything.
So I go to them again and I'mlike, hey, you know, here's the
(28:58):
things you mentioned, here's howI've improved.
I just want to know if there'slike any updates.
And they weren't like veryhappy about that, oh gosh.
But um, they finally like saidyes.
So I was like cool.
So as for brie for hand inmarriage, uh, we get engaged and
the plan was we were gonna haveour actual wedding like a year
(29:21):
later.
So we're gonna be engaged for ayear because this is what her
parents thought was best.
Okay, well, there's that.
This is why you need a wife,because she's you know she's
better memory, yeah anyways.
So some time go by and you know,still feeling convicted because
we're still not married, livingtogether in sexual sin, and so
(29:46):
we start praying, eloped, and so, uh, we pray about it and then,
um get to a point where I'mlike, okay, I think I should
probably move out.
And so I move out, I go livewith.
I lived with two differentpeople for probably a total of
(30:08):
like six months, um, and thenthe living situation fell
through um and I had to comeback home.
So we're living together again,still convicted, and I'm like,
man, what do we do?
And so I'm praying about it.
I'm praying about it and veryclearly I felt God telling us
like this is the time to getmarried, like you need to get
(30:31):
eloped, and this was stillprobably like six months out
from the wedding.
I don't know, it was a long timeout from the wedding and I knew
brie wasn't going to be happyabout it because she wanted to
make sure we had her parentsblessing and approval.
But I was like this is whatgod's telling me to do and this
is what we're going to do.
And so go and have thatconversation with her parents.
(30:54):
And they were very happy.
Um well, sorry, before theconversation.
This is where what you askedapplies because, um, the reason
brie didn't want to get elopedyet was because of the approval
from her mom and her dad, right,which was understandable up to
the point where what they'reasking of us was interfering
(31:15):
with what God was asking of us.
And I remember I had thisconversation with you and, I
think, with Robert, where I waslike well, you know, technically
, in the eyes of Texas, we'remarried because under what's the
law called Common law marriage.
I was like we're married andyou're like yeah, no, you're not
.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
No, and whatever I was like we're married and
you're like, yeah, no, you'renot, no, so and whatever I was
like what did I say?
Speaker 4 (31:40):
yeah, um, and then you literally sent me on like a
prayer walk where I walked likefive miles praying, that's good
and then you're like, and thentell me what god says when you
come back, and I was like crap,so, uh, so that was the case,
and that's when you helped merealize, though, is the reason
why well, one, the reason why wedon't want to go and get
married is there's somethingstopping it.
(32:01):
It's not just, you know, wewant to please her parents,
whatever, and that's when werealized that brie still wasn't
fully.
She didn't, uh, leave andcleave onto me yet, because she
was so worried about what herparents opinion was on this
whole situation that she wasallowing that to affect her,
coming under my authority, likeshe was basically still under
(32:23):
her dad's authority and notunder mine, obviously, because
we hadn't been married yet.
Speaker 5 (32:27):
But the point is so far she wasn't like making the
transition yeah
Speaker 4 (32:33):
and so once we talked about that and realized that,
then she was like okay, like godis calling us to do this and
even if my parents don't agree,it's more important that we're
obeying to god than to what theywant.
Because it was, it was trulybased out of an opinion, it
wasn't anything biblical, it wasjust like we don't want you to
have a shotgun wedding.
And we we were like, okay, sowe go and have the conversation
(32:57):
with them.
It did not go well at all.
Her mom was a little moreunderstanding.
Her dad wasn't understanding atall.
He like flipped out.
But I basically told him likehey, this is what we're going to
do, like I'm trying to beobedient to God, I don't want to
live in sin, and that's whatwe're going to do.
(33:17):
And so at the end of it kind ofworked out for everyone,
because there's this thing whereit's not a an actual marriage
certificate, but it's a.
But I thought it was like acertificate.
It was a certificate for commonlaw marriage, but it it.
I remember this.
It was different certificatefor common law marriage, but it
it.
I remember this.
It was different from like anactual marriage certificate,
(33:40):
because your parents acceptedthat and they were like, sure,
if that's what you want to doand that works for you, that's
fine.
But in their eyes we stillweren't married even though we
would file taxes as it were.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
We had documentation like the government said we were
married so we are married.
Speaker 4 (34:04):
So you got married.
Plex signed it.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
I signed the other one yeah, what a confusing time
yeah, did y'all have likeanother ceremony or something.
Speaker 5 (34:19):
Chris did it and you pronounced them husband and wife
, so you guys are married yeah,we did an actual ceremony.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
I don't remember what happened in that interim it was
very confusing, and if you'reconfused, you can imagine how I
felt.
I was just trying to do theright thing and it was a lot
more complicated.
If you're confused, you canimagine how I felt I was just
trying to do the right thing andit was a lot more complicated
than that.
Speaker 5 (34:44):
So how are things now with your parents?
Speaker 4 (34:45):
Oh, they're great.
Speaker 5 (34:47):
That was a rough start.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
You know, what.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
I think her dad respected me a lot more because
I stood for what I believed inand I think he wasn't expecting
that.
He was expecting me to just belike okay, like we'll just do
what you want.
So at first it was like kind ofawkward and you know just weird
.
But like after we grew so muchcloser, like we're way closer
(35:11):
today and I think it has a lotto do you and her dad, yeah,
yeah, that's awesome so awesome.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
I guess the real question I had was did you ever
have any issues of her, when youwere married, leaving and
cleaving?
Was there a part of it that wasdifficult for her to leave
traditions of her house to starta new family with you?
Was that ever a difficult thing?
Why that ever a difficult thing?
(35:44):
Why you're talking yeah, yougotta talk into the microphone
because you know we're on apodcast.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
They can't see.
I'm very set in my family'straditions on holidays and like
wanting to be with my parentsand my siblings on holidays oh
wow, how does that go over withyou?
Speaker 4 (35:54):
pablo.
Now it's better.
I think I was bitter at firstbecause I don't have family here
, so I was tired of seeing herfamily all the time.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Oh, gosh, I'm just being honest.
Call it like it is, that's good, all right.
Yeah, this is live marriagecounseling everyone.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
All right.
So you guys, I'm just tellingthe truth.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
So how did you guys move through?
That we now alternate holidaysoh good, good for you, that's
very.
Do you like where?
Speaker 4 (36:27):
because is your family in california they're in
florida, florida, okay, yeah, soI'm in california okay, wow,
that is awesome.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
You guys have done a good job at figuring out your
traditions over time.
All right, I want to get tothis last one that you brought
up a question earlier that youhad.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
When you were talking .
Are there neuropathways?
Is that what they're?
Speaker 1 (36:47):
called Neuropathways.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
yeah, yeah when you were talking about rewiring the
brain.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Yeah, what fires together?
Wires together.
Yeah, yeah, what fires together, wires together.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
Yeah, you dropped in the.
You're able to rewire yourbrain for your wife and not a
porn addiction.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
But then you also dropped in.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
If you have homosexual tendencies, you can
rewire that too.
My question is how?
Yeah, it's the same For both.
How so?
Speaker 1 (37:13):
there are a lot.
Here's what you may not knowbeing a pastor, you counsel a
lot of guys that are having sexwith men while they're married
to their wife, and so, uh,that's a thing, and so you can,
if you or can look at, they canor look at gay porn or whatever,
and you can rewire your brainto be, um, attracted to your
(37:37):
wife.
So that was it was in my headas I was preaching that, and now
, now as I'm putting togetherwhat you, what you probably
heard, was like, you just needto go have sex with women and
then you, or you know, go to thestrip club and you'll be cured.
And that's not, not what I wasadvocating.
I, I do appreciate that thatviewpoint.
Don't go to the strip club,holland.
Speaker 5 (38:00):
Got it.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
But I do have Jordan Smith here.
So Jordan struggles withsame-sex attraction and when you
hear that does it feel hopelessto you.
Give me your thoughts on that.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Rewiring the brain.
Yeah, not hopeless.
I mean, I think you have youropinion.
Do I believe that same opinion,I don't know?
I have been thinking throughrecently of if you trust God and
God can do anything, then is ittrue faith to just pursue a
woman even if you have noattraction?
It's kind of what I'm workingthrough right now.
(38:39):
Yeah, is that scientific Amen?
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Yeah, yeah, about how your brain like I mean, it's
not solely on environmentmatters what you believe matters
, there's everything.
It's a holistic approachbecause you're not just pure
matter, you're also spirit,You're also emotion, you're also
a lot of that stuff.
But God helps you out indeveloping the neural pathways
(39:06):
so that you are attracted toyour spouse for monogamy.
That's that purpose.
So, yes, and it's like a partof the picture, not the full
picture.
Speaker 5 (39:17):
Theologically, we understand that your desires are
malleable, yep.
Your, what you think is rightor good or beautiful and
attractive can change Yep, andchanges over time in a lot of
ways, but especially from goingfrom an unbeliever to a believer
, and you know you have passageslike Romans 12,.
(39:38):
Do not be conformed to thepattern of this world, but be
transformed by the renewal ofyour mind.
Like our minds can be renewed,our desires, our hearts, what we
find, yeah, attractive, can betransformed by God and can be
transformed even naturally,biologically, through, like the
(39:59):
stuff that you're talking about.
When you say rewire the brain,you're essentially saying
through natural, notsupernatural, means of God
giving you new desires.
You're saying through naturalmeans, what we like and desire
can be changed based on certainthings that we do.
So, but then the question ofyeah, yeah, I don't know.
(40:19):
I'd want to hear everyone'sthoughts on this yeah, yeah my,
my thoughts on you.
Know, should you just marrysomeone that you're not
attracted to?
Like that's what you're saying,right?
Should I just have faith, finda godly woman, marry her even if
I'm not sexually or physicallyattracted to it, right?
Speaker 2 (40:34):
right, and I believe that's what you're implying as
well, right.
Speaker 5 (40:41):
So I think, like number one, sexual attraction is
not a prerequisite for marriageRight.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
I think everyone kind of assumes that it is,
Especially in our modern culture, right, but back in the day of
arranged marriages, you may nothave, you know you get what you
get.
Speaker 5 (40:58):
It's not a condition for marriage.
It's not like when.
And also, I think, if you justlook at, there's a lot of
marriages where women, a lot ofwomen, are not attracted to
their husbands Right, and that'sa normal thing and so.
But you know, what you read inSong of Solomon is like, you see
, like that verse, there's noflaw in you.
What you read in Song ofSolomon is like, you see, like
(41:20):
that verse, there's no flaw inyou.
You see someone who is focusingon recognizing the beauty of
the other person.
And so you don't have to like.
I can even like.
I do not struggle with same-sexattraction, but I can look and
be like you're a good lookingdude and I can recognize man.
You got a nice beard going onthere, chris.
Speaker 4 (41:38):
Don't lie in the church, bro, come on.
Speaker 5 (41:42):
And you're like a strong dude, you're healthy, you
can recognize athleticism orfitness or handsomeness or
beauty or whatever, and a manand a woman.
We do this like even your—Because you do it with like cars
or houses, or your mom.
Like mom, you look beautiful,your daughter know you look
beautiful in your prom dress orwhatever.
Right your brother, you lookhandsome.
(42:04):
Um, you can recognize thosethings without being necessarily
like attracted to a person,sexually attracted right, yeah
and so, within the context oflike a marriage you could still
like if you don't you don't havea sexual attraction to someone,
you can still recognize theirbeauty and speak those things
and call them out to encouragethe person you can be.
(42:26):
What you're really called to beattracted to in a person,
according to scripture, isgodliness.
Beauty is fleeting, charm isdeceitful, right, but a woman
who fears the Lord is to bepraised.
The fear of the Lord, godliness1 Peter, a gentle, quiet spirit
, which is very precious in thesight of God.
It's godliness that is meant tobe what we're attracted to,
(42:47):
right More than anything else.
And if you make physicalattraction essential to marriage
, you really ruin, I think, thecore of what marriage is, which
is covenant commitment.
Were you attracted to your wife?
Yeah, so yes, and I think mywife's beautiful.
But what was most attractive tome about her was her heart for
(43:12):
God.
Because here's the deal If Imake her physical beauty, what
is like, that's the mostimportant thing.
She gets in a car accident andthe side of her face gets burned
off, she loses an arm,something like that, and she
just doesn't look the same.
If that's what our marriage isbased off, well, that's gone,
now Gone.
But if our marriage is based offI'm attracted to your heart for
(43:33):
God and I'm committed to you ina covenant commitment that no
matter, you know, car wreck orsickness and sickness and health
for richer or poorer, then youknow, like that, that's what
marriage is really about.
Is that covenantal love andcommitment and the and an
attraction based on a fear ofthe Lord.
So that's, that's my.
That's why I would support youin saying, hey, if there's a
(43:56):
godly woman at this church,you're like man, she's following
Jesus and there's no sexualattraction.
I would say praise the Lord,you're not lusting.
That's a good thing.
Win, and I think if you were to, you know, go on a date with
her and you know you guys, youboth love the Lord and you were
to get married or something youknow you take those steps.
I think the Lord, what Chris istalking about, could rewire,
(44:19):
even through natural means, butalso supernatural.
God give me a desire.
I think the Lord can workthrough that and that it's right
and good and that that is.
The God created male and femalefor each other and he blesses
that.
I think I would be supportiveof that and I think a godly
woman who feared the Lord wouldbe supportive of that as well.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
I mean, I wouldn't lie to her, but at the same time
I would be like here's whereI'm at, and the thing that's
really great about you, jordan,is that I mean, here we are on
live podcast streaming tomillions and millions of twos
out there where people can hear,see and go.
Oh, there's a real guy who lovesJesus, who's struggling with
(45:03):
real sinful desire but wants toovercome by the power of the
blood and testimony, all thatand I'm willing to get to know
him and you're a deep friend.
You're a kind of go-all-the-wayfriend, so you're not like a
surface-level person, you lovethe deeper things, you think
(45:24):
about things, and so a womanwould be really attracted to
that and you could probably belike, hey, let me get up.
Song of Solomon, chapter 4.
Your hair is like a flock ofgoats running down Gilead.
You could probably say that andmean it, and it'd be really
sweet and beautiful.
And I think that that's the partwhere I challenge you and our
(45:44):
listeners out there, like ifyou're struggling in a sinful
desire, then obviously you wantto orient your heart towards
Jesus, and the best thing youcan do is become a friend of a
woman that's single, and thenlet's see where God takes it.
I would not be against thateither, so I'm encouraged.
I totally agree with Holland,and I think I've said that to
(46:06):
you before, but I'm excited forthat.
Let's just see what happens.
I would love to see what theLord does with you as you start
to take a step of faith,although it's challenging, and
we've all known people that hadhomosexual background tendencies
and then they did get marriedand they flourished.
And there are couples at thischurch that have experienced
(46:26):
just that and are living for theLord now, even though they've
had a history of gay pornographyin their past, and so that's
something I can kind of look atand go like.
I've seen the proof in couplesat our church, and now walking
them into freedom with Jesus ispretty great.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
That's exciting.
Speaker 5 (46:50):
I'm kind of Bree.
What do you think about?
Like, let's say, Pablo, youknow you guys were dating and
maybe, maybe, like a different,you know it would be a different
story than y'all's story.
But say you're just, you'redating, and he and he's just
like hey, I'm not like here'swhat I've struggled with in the
past and I'm not like physicallyattracted to you and but I do
(47:11):
think you're like a beautifulperson.
Um, you know, I love your heartfor God, you know, and I would
love to be in a relationshipwith you, but that aspect wasn't
there.
But you knew he was going tolike love you and serve you and
protect you and provide for youand be a spiritual leader, like
what?
What do you think about that?
How would you receive that?
Speaker 3 (47:32):
Personally, I would be like this isn't going to work
out but, that's me Like that tome it's I need to.
I struggle with physicalappearance so I need someone who
will reassure me that they areattracted to me.
That's something I look for inmy spouse.
I do know there are women outthere who that's not a priority
to them.
There's actually a couple inthis church I won't say their
(47:55):
names because I don't know howpublic they want it but their
testimony is one of my favoriteswhere he straight up told her
I'm interested in pursuing you,I'm not attracted to you.
And she was like that's fineand the attraction came later on
and that's awesome.
But it does take a very specialwoman who's very confident in
herself already to be willing todo that.
That's kind of who you want andthat couple's super happily
(48:17):
married now, which is reallygreat.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
That's a great story in and of itself.
That has a woman ofself-confidence through the roof
.
It just shows that she wasraised by loving parents who
told her it's not about whatother people think, you're
awesome and loved.
That's a lot of love thatyou've received.
(48:43):
So then, like, endure that.
And then like, I think, she feltcalled by God to marry him, and
as odd as that sounds, um,which ultimately we knew it was
true when, uh, they said I do,but I do feel like that.
That's a great picture of that,of like he now finds her very
attractive and it's it's a wildpicture of that of he now finds
her very attractive, and it's awild thing.
Speaker 5 (49:01):
So we used to do apartment life and at our
apartment there was a bunch ofIndian couples, who all Hindu
Indian couples.
Most were arranged marriages.
And my wife was asking one ofthem one time they were getting
to know each other a little bitand she was like arrange
marriage, like what are yourthoughts?
Like what you know, what wasthat like?
(49:23):
And she was like well, I didnot used to like him or be
attracted to him, and now I amand he's my baby now.
And that was her response andit was just like and they about
it?
I did not like him, I was notattracted to him and he's my
baby now.
Yeah, I think that's the thingthat you're talking about with
the oxytocin.
(49:43):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
I mean like it couldn't be more clear from that
example, and I think in ourculture that has created for us
the romantic we fell in love atfirst sight.
I don't want to call itcomplete garbage, but we've
overemphasized a beauty that isso subjective and changes over
(50:06):
time.
And if your brain is designedto fall in love with that which
you have sex with, then whatcomes first?
I think the problem for a lotof us is we're having a lot of
sex before we have a lot ofcommitment, and so therefore, in
a transactional relationshipyou better have the body,
because I will find another onewho does.
In a covenantal relationship isyou're with me, no matter what.
(50:27):
And to what I'm talking aboutwith you, jordan, is.
The covenantal relationshipthat we're talking about is so
much greater than a physicalattraction.
It's covenantal, it's buildinga fabric of society, building
family together, representingJesus and the church.
And in some ways you have anadvantage because you're not
(50:48):
skewed by the world and you haveto look a certain look for me
to be into you, but rather I'mgoing to trust God and love you
as Christ loved the church,because that's what I'm called
to do, and that takes thepressure off, I think probably
for the woman in many ways tohave to live up to some sort of
beauty standard.
Anyway, that's what I thoughton that.
(51:09):
Cool, there you go.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
That's there you go All right.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Any other thoughts on that?
We spent a lot of time on thisparticular podcast.
Speaker 3 (51:19):
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
Yeah, all right.
Hey, listen, we love talkingfaith, culture, everything in
between, and very excited aboutSong of Solomon, chapter four,
and very excited about Song ofSolomon, chapter five, which
Pastor Mo will be bringing thisweekend.
So very excited for him to talkabout what happens when a
relationship gets a little rocky.
So, from our house to yours,have an awesome week of worship.
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