March 31, 2025 • 45 mins
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349: Pastor Plek and Pastor Holland unpack Song of Solomon chapter 7 to reveal how affirmation and intentional communication help marriages thrive like well-maintained gardens. If you want your marriage to flourish, be intentional about speaking words of affirmation to your spouse and nurturing even the smallest signs of connection between you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec,along with none other than
holland greg, pastor fromeastside community church.
Glad you are joining us thismorning thanks, chris, afternoon
afternoon so, if you didn'tknow it, uh, holland preached
this past sunday at wells branchcommunity church and it was a
delight and an honor to have himand he brought the word and
(00:27):
brought some fire, and so Iwanted to do a little bit of
review on Song of Solomon,chapter 7, and to see if any of
our fans out there werelistening and caught that he
actually started in Chapter 6,even though he didn't have the
verse on the screen.
Should we talk about that realquick, about the debated verse
of verse 13?
(00:49):
Let's do it.
It says, using the ESV returnreturn O Shulamite, return
return that we may look upon you.
And then Solomon goes.
Why should you look upon theShulamite as a dance before two
armies?
Talk to me about your thoughtson that verse.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
So this is where you're on the heels of conflict
reconciliation, yep, and youhave the others, the members of
the community, kind of speakinginto the relationship, yep, and
saying you know, return, return,as in like you know, let's
continue, all of us together,you know, like this, I don't
(01:32):
know communal type conversation,whereas the groom is saying,
you know, no, it's time for usto have some time alone, the
specific like.
I got the nkjv here where itsays what would you see in the
shulamite, as it were, the danceof the two camps?
There's a lot of ways thatverse is translated, interesting
(01:53):
, um.
So several differentinterpretations on what exactly
that means, I think.
In general, it's clear, though,that he is pulling her away
from the community, the others,the crowd, and speaking tenderly
, one-on-one to her, because inchapter seven he begins speaking
directly to her, not about her,you know, but directly to her,
(02:15):
and complimenting her, andcomplimenting her in very, you
know, intimate kind of language,and so it's clear that he's
saying, hey, it's the time oflike, kind of us all together is
over now.
One on one time with my, withmy I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
I think that's and I you know there's so much here
the the dance before two campsor two armies.
Do you think there's anycorrelation between Jacob jacob
wrestling the lord?
I know this might be a littlebit of a stretch, but I think
the two camps uh is referred toas manahayim right uh and
(02:53):
manahayim, and I think that'swhat the same maha naim, maha
naim, and I think that's whatthat was called back in Genesis.
I'm going to go with 25-ish,isn't it like 30s.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
I think it's in the 30s.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Genesis 32?
.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Maybe 25 to 32.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yeah, somewhere in that range.
Let me see if I can find it.
Maybe you're right.
Is it Genesis 32?
Yeah, 32, verse 2.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
And Jacob saw them.
He said this is God's camp.
So he called the name of thatplace Mahanaim.
And so I was like what is thatabout?
Is there any reference therefrom Solomon back to Jacob, not
wrestling with God, perhaps, butseeing God's, jacob's ladder
(03:45):
and the camp called Mahanaim?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah, I don't know.
There's no in that passage.
There's nothing about a dance.
There's no dancing there.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Except there's the wrestling with God.
Hold on, hold on.
In chapter seven it starts offwith her sandaled feet, so that
could be a reference to herdancing skills, okay.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I was saying in Genesis 32, though.
Oh right.
Of course there's nothing abouta dance going on there, right,
right, like make a connection.
If it was like you know, awrestling match, a fight, a you
know something, but a dance it'slike that's pulling from some
something that you know we'renot, or maybe there was a dance
that happened at the locationwhere jacob's ladder took place.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Anyway, I don't know.
I I just was like I was lookingfor a, an even greater old
testament, deep meaning, and Ithink I'm just I'm pulling the
air and I can't figure outanything yeah, yeah so I do
think it's just.
It's just transitioning from hey, everyone is excited to see
that this couple is reconciledand now to further reconcile.
They are going to go haveintimacy with just those two
(04:54):
together, and that's where heshowers her with compliments and
I think this really resonatedwith a lot of people.
On Sunday, If you weren't there, Holland brought up his garden
and he showed two pictures.
He didn't take a lot of peopleon Sunday If you weren't there,
Holland brought up his gardenand he showed two pictures.
He didn't take a picture of aheap of dirt.
Yeah, I should have had that.
Well, you probably could havegotten any heap of dirt and just
showed that.
And everyone would have believedyou.
But I think you don't takepictures of dirt, right, because
(05:17):
that's not impressive.
You only take pictures of yourgarden that flourishes, and the
same way, you probably don'twant to show off your marriage
as just a heap of dirt.
You want to show off a bloominggarden or a blooming marriage,
right?
So talk to us about reallywhere you were going with this
idea of watering the garden andthen transitioning to marriage.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah, so use the garden image, because it's the
main kind of imagery being used.
I almost feel like.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
For those of you who remember Phil Kwan, Phil Kwan
went to camp illustrations.
Every time You're going to thegarden illustration.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
It's springtime, all right.
This time of year, every year,every year around the Super Bowl
, you're going to get sportsillustrations from me.
That's fair.
It's springtime, you're goingto get garden illustrations.
Do sports illustrations?
Yeah, I went and I was shamedinto learning sports
specifically for my.
My preaching to connect withthat's right.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
That's the only way you can, because everybody knows
that sports illustrations arethe way to a man's heart.
Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
That's right, um.
So yeah, this is springtime,though, and so you got to use
the garden stuff and, like jesus, you know, he, he, he talked
about farming basically everyother story and so I feel like
he's slightly justified.
Can I?
Can I just go with this?
Speaker 1 (06:31):
isn't it odd that jesus talked about farming when
he could talk about carpentry?
Yeah like, why not talk aboutboards and planes and plumb
lines?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
you know?
Um, that's a good question.
When we get to heaven, I I'llask top 10.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Like why?
Why all the illustrations notabout your, your craft?
Maybe because he didn't want tobe limited as just a carpenter?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
There you go.
Well, there's something aboutyou know, it's not just um song
of Solomon and Jesus's parables.
Like, again, I brought this upin the sermon too, from the very
beginning, like, the firstscene we really see of humanity
in the Bible is in the garden,and it's the picture of bliss
and perfection before sinentered the world.
They're in a garden, things areblooming, flourishing, growing,
thriving, and so that image interms of like, something that is
(07:18):
healthy, something that is asit should be, a garden, a
vineyard, is often used todepict that, and so I gave a few
examples of that from the OldTestament, from the Psalms, and
Song of Solomon uses gardenimagery a ton.
So I showed some pictures of mygarden and I was bringing up,
though the whole point of itwith this passage in chapter
seven is saying that you don'tget a flourishing, blooming
(07:41):
garden, um, you know,automatically or accidentally it
takes work to um.
You gotta prepare the soil,plant the seeds and water it.
Yeah, and if you, if you waterit, if you do the work, you can
expect it to be healthy and growunder normal circumstances,
right, um?
But if you don't, why shouldyou expect it to be healthy?
(08:02):
If you're not doing the work ofwatering your garden, it's
going to dry, it's going to theplants will be wilted.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Wilted.
Is that right Wilted?
You said yeah, wilted is fine,but you said wilter, wilter.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
That was hilarious.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, I knew I said something I remember I was like
you know, I'm going to let thatone roll and wither.
I think I mixed those.
Yeah, yeah, but you did wilter,wiltered, maybe it was wiltered
.
I was.
As I was listening to you talk,I looked around to see if
anybody else was gone, andnobody.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
They were like yeah, wilter just say it confidently,
yeah, yeah, I knew I was like Isaid something wrong and then
right now it just came to mindagain.
But you know, not thriving notthriving.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah, nice wilter.
Uh, maybe we're making a wordand maybe it'll just all start
right here.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
There we go.
It's a good word Wilter,wiltering, it's wiltering, it
feels like a real word, anyway.
So my point was in chapterseven, the husband, his words of
affection, his compliments areessentially, you know, in the,
the metaphor of the garden.
He is watering the garden thatgod has given him.
(09:09):
His words are nourishing andnurturing his relationship with
his wife, her heart.
And then, you see, you know,starting in verse 10, her
response is that she receivesand reciprocates.
So she receives what he has tosay, instead of criticizing it
or putting it down or denying it, dismissing it.
She receives it.
She says my beloved is mine, Iam my beloved's and his desire
(09:32):
is for me.
In verse 10.
And then verse 11 through 13,she basically is like let's go,
let's go get alone together.
I want to give you my love.
And so you see that herconfidence in his love and her
desire for him comes as theresult of his words of affection
for her.
So, essentially, him showeringher with affection is like
(09:54):
watering this garden that bearsthe fruit.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
So what I liked about and I think what some might
have found difficult was you puta lot of the onus some might
have found difficult.
Was you put a lot of the onusand I think rightfully so on the
men to water the marriage andthe relationship and really like
it's your job to do that.
Now I think maybe women weremaybe listening to that and
(10:18):
they're like well, I'm screwed,it's never going to happen.
I don't know if you don't knowwho I'm married to, it's
hopeless.
My husband does not do thosethings, so I guess I just have
to sit here in sorrow.
What do you think would be somegood insight for a wife who's
experiencing that?
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Pray number one, pray for well, number one.
One, I'd say, in Christianitythere's no such thing as
hopeless.
You know, like there's always.
God is a miracle.
That's what I wanted to end thesermon with is reminding
everyone who the Lord is, thathe raises the dead, he brings
(11:00):
light out of darkness, you know,he gives sight to the blind.
Like that's who God is.
And so, if you're like there'sno way my husband's ever going
to become this kind of like,affectionate, loving, um, tender
person, um, first and foremost,you got to understand that
you're doubting what God can do,right?
So we can all understanddoubting, uh, people you know,
based on your experience of them, and, uh, you know how, how
(11:21):
they've treated you, or you know, based on your experience of
them, and you know how they'vetreated you, or you know what
their past is and all that.
But we can't doubt God andwe've got to know that God is
able to.
He's mighty to save, he's ableto change and transform anyone.
And so husbands are called tobe tender and affectionate, to
nourish and cherish their wives.
In Ephesians five, right, Ithink you taught, think you
(11:43):
taught maybe a few Sundays ago,on like rendering affection.
That's KJV, right?
Yeah, it's New King.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
James New King.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
James, yeah, yeah, there you go, rendering the
affection due to your wife.
You owe your wife affection,nourishment, cherishing her,
washing her with water of theword, right, like that's stuff.
That's a husband's obligationand responsibility to his wife
before.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
God, even if he's not a Christian, which I think is
one of the things that's.
I think I was looking atChristian memes and it was, you
know, john the Baptist.
It was like you know, john theBaptist calling out Herod for
you know, taking his brother'swife, and you know it was kind
of poking fun at people who aresuper against Christian
(12:30):
nationalism because they wouldsay like hey, here's Herod or
here's John the Baptist callingout a non-Christian to live as a
Christian.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah right.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Anyway and I think you can call it husbands to live
as Christian husbands, becausethat's what you're supposed to.
However, I do think the realityis, if you're a believing wife
and you're married to anonbeliever, I think 1 Peter 3,
1 through 6 is a great verse tosort of hold on to Like wives.
Wives be subject to your ownhusbands so that, even if some
(13:02):
do not obey the word, be subjectto your own husband, so that,
even if some do not obey theword and I guess you could say
that this even if they're aChristian who doesn't obey the
word, they may be won without aword by the conduct of their
wives when they see yourrespectful and pure conduct.
Do not let your adorning beexternal, the braiding of hair
and the putting on of goldjewelry or the clothing you wear
, but let your adorning be thehidden purse of the heart, with
(13:23):
the imperishable beauty of agentle and quiet spirit which is
, in God's sight, is veryprecious, for this is how the
holy women who hoped in God usedto adorn themselves, by
submitting to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham,
calling him Lord, and you areher children if you do good and
do not fear anything that isfrightening which I appreciated
the fear, anything that'sfrightening.
So what I hear from that iswomen, it's going to be on you.
(13:48):
If you have a husband who iseither A not a Christian, or B
just not living like a Christian, then your role is to kind of
go over the top in yourobedience and respect for him so
that he can be won over by yourrespect.
And I think when people hearthat, they hear oh so you want
(14:09):
me to be a doormat, right?
And I think that's a challengethat us, as two men, might have
a little difficulty in managing.
I think what Adrienne does forme if she feels like I am not
one who's obeying the word,she's like she'll say I want to
pray for you to change your mindabout that, or I really think
you should seek God on that andpray about that.
(14:30):
I'm not going to tell you whatto do, but I think you should be
praying about that, and that'skind of her way of saying I
think you're out of line, or Ithink you should, you know, lead
me in some way.
Um, but I think that's achallenge, I think it's a real
challenging thing, and what Idon't want to happen is women,
because here's how I think somewomen might take this.
Chris, I took six months.
(14:50):
I will get that output, and sotherefore, this is an
unconditional promise of Godthat when I obey my husband, he
(15:12):
will treat me right and be wonover by my conduct.
And I don't think that's whatthe Scripture is saying or that
your hope is there, but becauseyou hope in God so much that it
is reflected in your obedienceto your husband.
Thoughts on that.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot in the Bible that talks
about if you do this, then thiswill happen in a principle, yeah
, a general principle you reapwhat you sow.
It's a biblical principle.
So it's not, you know, thekarma idea of just like you're
putting some kind of energy intothe universe and it's going to
(15:50):
come around, but it's more oflike God has designed the world
and human beings andrelationships and society to
function a certain kind of way.
And so you, in the same waythat you can expect, if you
plant a seed and water it, itwill grow Right Now.
Does that happen every time?
No, sometimes a squirrel comesand, you know, plucks it out of
the ground, or a bird takes it,or a, you know, a dog comes and
(16:10):
takes a dump on your garden andyou know, like there's all kinds
of stuff that's like okay,doesn't that fertilize?
Maybe it does Okay, yeah, notideal for like herbs and stuff
that you want to eat, I don'tknow, but you know what I mean.
Like there's, under normalcircumstances, if you plant a
seed and water it, it will giveyou this result.
(16:30):
I think you can say with firstpeter three um, under normal
circumstances, if you have agentle, quiet spirit and you are
submissive to your own husband,um, then your conduct, or it
says, may win them over.
It's not a input, this get youknow automatic, like of course
(16:50):
we, I'm sure you know, we knowstories.
Maybe there's even peoplelistening that are like, like
you said, I've been doing that,I haven't seen that result, and
maybe it's, you know, the Lord'stiming versus our timing type
thing.
You've been doing it for sixmonths.
It may be six years before yousee that change.
So yeah, it's not an exactlytransactional thing, but there
(17:13):
are principles.
In the same way that it's likeif you disciple your kids and
pray for them and read the Biblewith them, they're going to
grow up knowing and loving theword and the church.
But if you have a duplicitouslife where you go to church on
Sundays and then you never talkabout the Lord at home, you can
kind of expect them to probablynot want anything to do with the
(17:34):
church and Christianity.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
One of the things you told me now, from a husband's
perspective, like I've beenwatering and watering and
watering and nothing, it's justmud, and I think you I don't
know if you want to tell thestory, but I'm gonna put you on
the spot with it uh, I think youtold us the, as you wish,
princess bride story.
So tell me about that and andhow, uh, you've sort of just
(17:57):
chosen in your life to respondyeah, uh, I think this was like
not even too long ago on thepodcast, but um talking, about
like here I yeah, it was on, itwas on, it was.
Yeah, I thought we were talkingabout somewhere else.
No, it was on.
Oh man, this is like this.
I'm older now.
I sort of dementia.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
I probably sitting in very old yeah, um, what, uh, I
can't remember what it was, butit was something about like what
our pet peeves were.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Your wife said or no, your pet peeve for your wife
was her asking you to godownstairs and get her a drink
of water or something.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Well, not downstairs One-story house.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
But you know same thing.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Sorry, it was like.
So, when I'm all ready for bedand you know I I've brushed my
teeth, I've plugged in my phone,I put you know.
And then I get in bed and myhead hits the pillow and at that
point she's like can I have aglass of water?
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Also, I don't know where my phone charger is.
Can you find it?
And also, you know, it's likeman, I've been up, moving around
closing down the house, lockingdoors.
You know, if you would haveasked me that any other point, I
could have just done it while Iwas already up, right, but then
when I finally hit my head,hits the pillow, I'm ready to
crash.
Then you ask and it would likefrustrate me to no end, um, but
(19:16):
I decided one day I was like youknow what Cause?
Like well, it happened, andshe'd asked me.
And then I would have thiscrisis moment of like Jesus
would say yes, serve your wife,but I don't want to.
And it's annoying.
You know that?
Why?
How?
Why does it just like get youknow, ask me at a different time
, like she needs to change.
And I'll get into this war inmy head where I'm one.
(19:37):
One sense I'd be like serveyour wife, be like Jesus, and on
the other hand, it'd be like noboundaries.
She needs to learn.
And then I just decided, nomatter what, I'm just gonna say
yes and this is gonna be one ofthe ways that I um serve my wife
.
It's not really that big of adeal at the end of the day.
It's very small um, but itfeels big when you're like in
your flesh, but anyway.
So I decided like I'm justgonna say yes, no matter what,
(19:59):
and I told her that I said umfrom now on, because there are
times when I said no and shewould be like your wife is your
love of your life that you madevows to, is asking you, and I'm
like you have legs you can't get.
You're not even tired.
You're like watching a show onyour phone right now.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
I'm watching a show simultaneously.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
You know, and, and so then I would get mad, and so,
anyway, there would be timeswhen I said no, and you know,
and so then I would get mad, andso, anyway, there would be
times when I said no, and youknow, and felt justified in it,
but I was like you know what I'mjust gonna?
This is gonna be a way that Iserve my wife.
I told her, I said I'm gonnasay yes, no matter what.
So if you ask me, I will do it.
And um, and I say as you wish,princess bride, and uh, and it's
it.
Uh, makes me laugh when I do ittakes out.
(20:44):
You know just like it makes itsomething when I do it Takes out
, you know just like makes itsomething fun and sweet and cute
instead of you know, have youever run into RUSs?
Oh, r-o-u-ss Rodents of UnusualSize.
I have two of them.
One of them's 12 years old,grumpy old dog and has a problem
, and then our puppy, molly.
They're the main reason I don'tsleep at night anymore.
(21:06):
All my kids sleep through thenight.
Now and now my dogs get up andI have to take them out wow,
right, you don't resolve that.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
What'd you say, doggy door will solve it yeah, that's
my.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
That's what I'm thinking about right now all
right, well, that's good, okay.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
So, um, as you were talking on on sunday, I was
excited because it made me wantto talk about something this
sunday and I thought I'd giveyou a gift.
Are you ready for your gift?
I'm ready, all right.
So you remember the Mr Weenieposter size.
Put it on your refrigerator sothat you knew how to argue.
Of course I do, okay.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
You have updated.
I have updated.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
With a new logo.
With a new logo, I know I'mlike Wow, yeah.
I know I'm like wow, yeah, yeah.
So I, I, I was pretty motivatedand I was like I think I might
even talk about this on Sunday.
Somehow I'm going to work it inCause.
I was like you talked aboutnegative interpretation, yeah,
yeah, and I was like I am goingto find a way to put it in there
.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Fastest way to kill the joy in your marriage is mind
reading negative interpretation.
Yeah, I know what you meant bythat and it was bad.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Yeah, yeah.
So I kind of I think that'skind of fun.
So I've been excited abouthanding these out.
These are refrigerator officialmagnets.
You don't even need a magnetfor your paper.
This is all one large magnet.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
I can't wait to go home?
Yeah, and you can put it upthere.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Put this on my fridge , my fridge, yeah, this is
already on my fridge at home,next to my wells branch events
calendar magnet.
That is up there hey, listen,there's only one air on the
wells branch events calendar.
The volleyball tournament is nolonger july 19th, I think it's
august 9th.
So that's for free, all right,everybody wanted to know that.
Um, yeah, so mine.
So the first one is mindreading, which is where I assume
(22:45):
the worst of you and I'm likeno, assume the best.
Boom, philippians 4a whatever'snoble, whatever is right,
whatever's true, whatever'sbeautiful.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yeah, which I brought up because he says your belly
is a heap of wheat right and shecould have been like turp on
that yeah, she could have beenlike, what do you mean by that?
yeah, why do you know?
And like gotten offended andthat.
But her response after all ofit is she assumes the best of
everything that he said.
Instead of being like that'sall you want is, you know, all
(23:13):
you talk about is this, or whatyou really meant is this, and
you don't really mean that.
Like she doesn't go thatdirection with anything, even
though we can understand, maybe,like our wives, maybe feeling
those things, having thosefeelings, like maybe just due to
some insecurity.
You don't really mean that.
But she chooses to receive hiswords and to trust his words, to
(23:33):
assume the best of his intentand to receive them as love.
And that's actually reallyimportant for wives to be able
to do that and say I believe you, thank you.
That means a lot that you wouldsay to me, say that to me, and
so it's not.
You know, I was mainly, I think, pressing the men in terms of
speaking those words ofaffection, but because I think
that's the main focus of thatsection.
(23:54):
But there is the side of thewives saying to receive that and
to nurture.
That, like back to yourquestion is like what if your
husband doesn't do that, nurtureevery single shred of it.
You know, if he gives somethinglike, let him know.
I think you say a lot.
What gets rewarded getsrepeated right Gets repeated.
Yeah, you know, if your husbandsays something complimentary,
(24:15):
thank him for that.
Let him know how much it meansto you when he says those kinds
of things, and he'll say themmore.
You know what gets rewardedgets repeated, and that will
actually strengthen your bond asyou make that more and more of
a norm in your home.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Yeah.
The second one was withdrawal,which I don't know if you've
ever experienced this, wheneveryou're getting I call it
emotionally flooded, and if youdon't know what that means, like
whenever you get triggered bysomething.
I see this with my kids a lot.
Maybe it's probably the easiestway, like when they either go
into, they're emotionallyflooded, they'll either fight my
(24:47):
youngest son, paxton, just goesstraight up screaming, throwing
things.
He goes to fight.
Or flight, where, like Titus,he runs away and hides in a
little under the or behind thechair, so I can't find him
because he's angry and has hisfeelings hurt.
He's angry and has his feelingshurt.
(25:08):
Or freeze, where you just likecheck out mentally or get on
some sort of device or justescape the moment, but you're
actually there, right in front,right there, just checked out.
Or fake, where you have acompliance, where I say
absolutely I'll do that and youhave no intention, but you fake
the, you say the right words sothat you can kind of get out of
the situation and you now moveon.
So but what people do wheneverthey withdraw is that they I
(25:30):
think what happens is they getso angry or so frustrated.
A lot of guys will just shutdown.
This is a lot of men actuallythat do this.
And so there's three types ofcouples.
There's a couple that's kind ofgoing at it all the time.
I call that the italian couple.
They're usually yelling eachother, fighting each other.
There's a victorian couple whoare like oriented back to back
(25:53):
and they don't talk about theirproblems or feelings or issues.
Uh, they just pretend they haveno problems and they're really
great at facebook, at faking it.
And then you've got uh, likethe the american couple, where
usually, usually it's the wifewho's agitated and she's always
trying to go and pick a fightwith her husband.
Her husband's just like leaveme alone, all I want is peace.
And so the most healthy coupleis the Italian couple.
(26:17):
Just take out the screaming andthe punching and you're
committed to pursuing oneanother.
But if it gets to a point whereyou're emotionally flooded,
where you're not making anyforward progress, stopping and
then say hey, I need to go pray,for I need to go and pray for
15 minutes hour, I don't know, acouple hours and we're going to
meet on this again is sovaluable and I think that
(26:40):
there's a lot of health there,and I think what happens for a
lot of us're like I'm gonnafight this thing out, and one of
the couple, one of the people,is like they're all, they're
about, all about pursuing it.
I want to pursue thisrelationship and the other
person is overwhelmed, crushed,defeated, and they're checked
out or they're about you.
You've got to a point wherethey're about to go fisticuffs
and I think that's where,ultimately, you need to kind of
(27:00):
slow down and having a plan forthat of, hey, I'm going to take
15 minutes and I'm going to prayor just get my mind clear and
come back when I'm ready toemotionally engage that, I think
, has been really helpful for alot of couples.
To have a time and location.
You know, like you know, don'ttext me every two minutes as I'm
going to walk around the blockbecause I need to cool off or
(27:22):
whatever.
Next one I have is exaggeration.
Don't use words like always ornever.
You always or never.
You always do this, you neverdo that.
What that does is it demonizesthe person.
It takes the focus off theperson, I'm sorry, off the
behavior and onto the person,because if you're always doing
(27:48):
evil things, then you're theproblem, not the action, but if
it's the action, that's aproblem that you did.
Now I can address the behaviorand not the fact that I'm a
complete, total devil.
Next one, which you got into alittle bit.
I call it extrapolation.
It's where you take the momentright now and it's going to be
like this, where my spouse willnever change.
That's catastrophizing whatyou're really saying.
If you're saying my spouse willnever change, you are so bad
that God can't change you andGod is not strong enough,
(28:10):
powerful enough to change thesituation.
And so it's like a.
It's a double whammy, becauseyou're saying the person is like
unchangeable, they'reirredeemable, and God is so weak
and small that he can't changethat.
Which is why I say like, listen, the person might be the worst
person on the planet, but Godcan change anyone, yeah, amen.
And then the negativeinterpretation which you got
(28:32):
into, like where you twist hey,your belly is like a heap of
wheat.
Well, well, well, what are youthinking about?
No, it's like I assume thatyou're assuming the worst of me,
as opposed to just simplyreceiving the compliment you me,
as opposed to just simplyreceiving the compliment, you're
twisting a benign or even ahealthy statement and turning it
negative.
And then invalidation.
I think this happens a ton.
(28:53):
It's where someone gets hurtand I brought this up the week
before A person who's ajustice-oriented person will say
, oh yeah, you can't say that tome.
I'm going to say this to you,all right, that doesn't help.
But then there's also peoplethat are all about mercy and
they'll say like, hey, you justhurt my feelings and I'll absorb
(29:14):
it and I'm not going to sayanything.
And although that's helpfulwith people you don't know, like
, the person you give mercy tois the road raging dude that
flips you off on the highway andcontinues on their way and you
go.
I am not going to let thataffect me.
But when you do a mercy typething with your spouse, you're
(29:34):
stuffing emotion because you'restill dealing with that person.
What grace looks like is hey,it's your benefit at my expense.
I'm going to go through thepain of explaining to you
something that hurt me and thengive you a pathway to
forgiveness.
And that's ultimately whatJesus does, right.
He gives us, he lets us knowour sins.
It's kindness leads us torepentance.
(29:56):
It's kindness for him to revealto us how our darkness and
wickedness has affected ourrelationship with God.
He does the work of dying onthe cross and being raised from
the dead, providing a pathway ofreconciliation.
In the same way, when I bringup the sin that my spouse has
committed against me and I saylisten, here's a pathway to
forgiveness.
Jesus died for you.
I've forgiven you, but I wantyou to know that this hurts me
(30:18):
and I want to provide an avenuethat we can talk about this in a
way that's healthy.
And so what I always tellcouples is like when the person
that gets hurt and say I feelhurt because you did this thing,
then the person goes I'm sorry,I did that, and they empathize.
That would be.
If I were you, I would be soupset, I'd be angry.
I can totally understand whyyou got that frustrated.
Will you forgive me?
(30:40):
And then the spouse, if theyfeel like they know or the
offending spouse understandstheir pain and hurt, they can go
, yeah, I forgive you, or theygo, no, I don't think you get it
.
You're just saying words rightnow, and here's the real issue.
Then the offending spouse triesagain to forgive Eventually.
(31:00):
Will you forgive me?
Yes, when they understand.
How can I make it right?
Forgiveness is given without.
What are you going to do tomake this right?
Trust is earned, so you canbuild up trust in the
relationship through changingyour behavior, and then finally,
escalation, which is justsimply kind of battling up,
battling up.
(31:20):
So these are the negative things.
Are the negative things if, ifwatering, with compliments in in
serving and loving, and giftsand sex and positive things are
a way to water, uh, one of theways that you can not take rocks
and litter it, litter, put salt, not salt the uh, the garden is
(31:43):
by, um, not using thesetechniques or these negative
techniques and prevent them.
And I think this is just ahelpful arguing tool to go like
oh, I am mind reading, oh, I amnegatively interpreting.
Anyway, that's why I put theseon the fridge to help people
understand how to communicate,especially when there's so much
anger present.
Yeah, that's good, all right.
So let's talk about the end ofthe chapter in Song of Solomon,
(32:11):
chapter 7, wraps up with—well,not wraps up.
I like this one.
This is why I think it's makeup sex.
By the way and I know that itwas not the primary thing you
were talking about I will say Isay I will climb the palm tree
and lay hold of its fruit.
Yeah, climb the palm tree andlay hold of its fruit.
Yeah and uh or oh.
(32:31):
May your breasts be likeclusters of the vine and your
scent of your breath like applesand your mouth like the best
wine.
So he wants to touch herbreasts and kiss her, and then
she's like it goes down smoothlyfor my beloved, gliding over
lips and teeth, and then he, andthen she's like I'm my beloved
and his desires for me.
Come, my beloved, let's go inthe fields, in the countryside,
and there I will give you mylove.
(32:52):
This is complete.
I want to go get alone with you, have sex with you, enjoy you,
and obviously predicated bycompliments, predicated by right
treatment and really devotingintimacy, which I really
appreciate that he takes heraway from the Shulamite, or
(33:13):
sorry, takes the Shulamite awayfrom the crowd to say, hey, this
is how I feel about you.
I'm not just doing this forshow, this isn't just a Facebook
or Instagram or social mediapost of how much I love you.
This is me communicating to youspecifically, outside the realm
of social media, to let youknow how much I love you, and I
think that's an important aspect.
(33:33):
Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Amen.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Yeah, I mean pretty much, we covered it all.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
I think so.
I think you know there's, youcould.
I mean, there's so much to sayabout this.
You could do a whole sermonjust on verse 11 through 13 and
the wife's role of like giveyour husband your love.
Really, the majority of thechapter, nine verses of it is
(34:01):
the husband really initiatingand leading with his words.
But you could really do a whole, you could do the same passage
this Sunday and really focus onthe wife's role of like her
communicating her desire, hercommitting to give herself to
her husband, like it's not just,it doesn't all fall to the man
(34:21):
I think that's important tobring up sometimes is like we
really emphasize the man's rolein leading, initiating, but the
wife's role is here too, to likereally nurture the love and
intimacy of the marriage.
And you see a humble, a loving,a healthy, godly, submissive
woman here who wants to love herhusband and give him her love,
(34:43):
and so something great aboutthat too.
And you know, if you're like,what do I do if my husband, you
know, doesn't show affection andstuff like that?
In the same way, in 1 Peter 3,like you can win him over by
your godly conduct.
You may win him over to beingmore romantic by you know, you
being extra intimate andaffectionate with him and really
(35:05):
taking you know what you seehere in these verses and being
like I'm just going to give him,instead of cutting off
affection because I'm notgetting what I want from him,
I'm going to, you know, givemore affection.
I'm going to pray.
The Lord changes his heart.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
So I love that.
I feel like that's the partwhere we, I think, what happens
for us.
We want quick fixes, yeah, wewant, you know, a life hack to
relationship and you just can'tit's it's you're going to build
trust over time.
Your even your six months ofrighteous behavior may not
override the nine years ofnegative behavior, uh, that your
(35:41):
spouse is still recovering from, and so you can't go.
I've been doing it for since,whatever it's gotta be like, I
am being transformed and I'mgoing to get an, as you wish,
mentality to be a servant of myspouse, not just a, not just
someone that's looking totransactionally get what I need,
which is peace in the house.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
And it's not saying to be a doormat on either side
you talked about.
It's not the wife being adoormat.
It's also not the husband beinga doormat.
A doormat, it's also not thehusband being a doormat.
Like you know, with the as youwish thing, it doesn't mean you
abdicate your leadership, yourinfluence, your authority in the
marriage or anything like that.
It means that you look for waysto love and serve and bless.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
I think this becomes hard.
How do you do that?
How?
How do you tell?
How do you have healthyconflict?
How do you tell your wife no,and you're not going.
Happy wife, happy life.
You're going.
I don't know something betterthan that.
You're saying I am going tolead you beyond your emotion of
(36:41):
the moment.
I know you want to be happyright now.
I'm going to lead you to aplace where there's greater joy
and you're going to have tofollow.
How do men do that withoutcoming off as controlling,
without coming off as I don'tknow, some sort of jerk in that
moment?
I think that's the part where Ithink men are really struggling
is they don't know, likethey're trying to remain calm,
(37:05):
they might be dealing with.
Their wife has gotten emotional, she's now crying and you're
just like I just want to stopthe tears, I just want to stop
this moment.
How do I engage in a way thatkind of leads my family to the
direction it's supposed to go?
What do you think?
And again, there isn't a fixall.
But what do you think some ofthe strategies here are in those
moments?
Speaker 2 (37:25):
And yeah, that's a great question.
I think that if you don't havethe character and history of
humility and confidence andgodliness and devotion to Christ
and being servant-hearted, it'sway harder to try to lead your
(37:48):
home.
You don't have to—authorauthority in marriage isn't
something that you earn.
It's just.
That is how that's what it isthe husband is the head of the
wife.
Whether he is good head or abad head, he's the head.
So you don't have to earn that.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
But because we've all had bad bosses that we've had
to deal with.
Yeah, and you could be marriedto someone that's a bad boss
yeah, or and for a bad employeefor that matter.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Yeah, if you're, if you're the husband and you are
you, you lack integrity andcharacter.
and then you, you try to um, youknow, really, use your, your
positional authority to sayhere's where we're going, like
that's not gonna be pleasantexperience, right?
And so your wife might submit,she might fake, she might submit
(38:33):
because she's really godly andshe knows that that's the right
godly thing to do.
Or she might submit just out offear, like I don't want to rock
the boat, I don't want to upsethim, but like that's not the
desirable ideal situation.
The ideal situation is ahusband who loves like Jesus and
serves like Jesus, who usesauthority to bless and build up
his family to, you know, um,draw out all that God has for
(38:56):
his wife.
You know, to serve her, but like, uh, I think for a lot of men
today in our culture, there is,um, a sense of like, I want to,
um, I want to be a goodspiritual leader, but I don't
necessarily know how, because Iwas never taught.
That, I think, is the hugeproblem.
So, uh, and now you know, andwhen you, when you realize like,
(39:20):
oh man, I think I've been doingit wrong and I want to do it
right, but you're 10 years in orsomething, or five years into
your marriage it's, and nowyou're trying to, and what
you've been doing for five or 10years is essentially being a
doormat.
And now you try to say, okay,I'm going to like step into this
role, I'm going to try to leadmy family and your wife's like
what is wrong with you?
Speaker 1 (39:39):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (39:39):
you're doing, you know, like that's a whole.
I mean you got to.
The main thing, I think, tokeep in mind with all of that is
to be very patient, to beconfident with God's design for
marriage and to lean into yourrole, but to be very patient if
it's not going the way you wantit to, and to be humble.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Yeah, I think one of the things that really has
struck me as I've challengedcouples is that a husband has to
model submission.
Well, how can he do that ifhe's not supposed to be mutually
submitting?
He is supposed to submithimself to Christ, right?
So like in your submission toJesus.
And you might even lead likethis and saying like hey, I
really feel like the Lord hascalled me to get up at a certain
amount of time to spend timewith the Lord.
(40:18):
I really feel like the Lord iscalling me and you're not just
using phrases.
It's not here's your phrase,but rather it's you have a
genuine heart to serve the Lord.
Here's why I feel like the Lordis calling me.
Here's why I feel like the Lordis calling me.
Here's where God is leading me.
This is why I've learned fromGod's word.
(40:38):
I need to personally change andI need to do a better job of
leading you.
One of the ways that the Lordhas convicted me that I'm going
to lead better is in this thingof serving you.
When you lead off with all ofthat, it's a lot easier to
follow.
Now you might have a wife orspouse looking at you, going
yeah, right, you're not going tochange.
You talked to somebody, youwent to a conference, you heard
a sermon, you did something andyou're going to be a better guy
(40:59):
for all of one week and I'm notpreparing my heart and mind for
that.
That should not change how youemploy.
You stick with it and overcome,because you're more than a
conqueror.
I think what happens with menwhen they get rejected by their
wives they shut down, they quit,they go back into their
passivity, and I think that'swhere you double down in your
(41:19):
love, affection, water thegarden even more and then lean
into it, or else you are goingto ultimately be frustrated on
the sideline.
You may spend years cultivatingbefore you see fruit, but there
is fruit on the other side ofit.
Principally, I would say.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Yeah, amen.
And there's something about theway that God has designed men
and women too, that, like youknow the principle of 1 Peter 3,
winning your husband over byyour conduct.
There's something in a man that, when a wife you know, when
your wife comes to you,submissive, um, gentle, wanting
(41:58):
to like, honor you and respectyou, that does something in you
that makes you be like, wow, Iwant to take care of you.
You know, like man that, uh,you would.
There's it like, awakens orignites something inside of you
to want to be a better man.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
And so I think so.
I think that's important.
I think I don't want to saylike here's your lever to pull.
Yeah, right, here is a seed tosow.
Yeah, like the seed you aresowing, woman, wife, is respect
your husband and obey him as thesaints of old.
And then I think, on the flipside, husbands this is 1 Peter,
(42:35):
3, 7, live with your wives in anunderstanding way.
I don't know if that meansyou'll actually ever understand
her, but it means that you'regoing to live with her in an
understanding way, like you'renot going to mind read, you're
not going to invalidate, you'regoing to kind of go.
I'm going to seek first tounderstand, then to be
understood.
I'm going to ask lots ofquestions, I'm going to find
(42:55):
your heart, I'm going to get myPhD in my wife and go.
I want to learn and that whenyou start to understand her,
when she starts to feel like youget it, then I think it's going
to calm the frenetic, anxious,angered heart and then she'll go
like he gets me, I can trusthim.
I think that's usually thereason why there's so much
(43:16):
emotive anxiousness from thewife to the husband is like she
doesn't feel, like heunderstands, like I think, if
I'm just thinking over all thecoaching that I've done and just
looking at God's word to yourpoint that this is the seed a
husband needs to plan.
It's like I want to understandyou, even if that means I need
to understand the way you feelabout me, the way that my
(43:38):
actions are coming off to you.
And if you sit down and takeout the emotion for the moment
and go tell me how the way I'vebeen treating you makes you feel
you are now transforming themarriage because she feels
closer to you, feel you are nowtransforming the marriage
because she feels closer to youeven if she's saying the most
harshest things she might belike.
And when you said that in frontof the children and when you
(44:00):
said that at whatever the thingwas, and you made the joke and
you did the thing, I was justdeeply hurt by that and you go
oh wow, I had had no idea.
Thank you for sharing that withme.
Getting into apologies.
It might create a little bit,stir up some anger, but
ultimately I think it's going todraw a husband and wife closer
and that's the seed that is tobe sown for reconciliation.
(44:23):
Anyway.
I I think that that's thatshould be the heartbeat of a
marriage that's trying to growcloser, uh, together, okay, um,
but I think.
But I think what we tend to doand I now I'm in first peer
three is like of a marriagethat's trying to grow closer
together, okay, but I think whatwe tend to do and now I'm in
first peer three is like finally, all of you have unity of mind,
sympathy, brotherly love, atender heart and humble mind.
Do not repay evil for evil orreviling for reviling man, but,
(44:43):
on the contrary, bless.
For this to this you werecalled, you may obtain a
blessing.
If there is one marriage pieceof advice, don't fight fire with
fire.
When your spouse says I'mcalling the lawyer, in your head
you're like I'm going to get mylawyer too.
I think the route is like Ilove you, I love you.
I always say this whenever Icoach couples.
(45:07):
Whenever you squeeze a grapeand you crush it, out comes
grape juice, because a grapecrushed, produces grape juice,
because that's what's inside.
Whenever you crush a Christian,out should come Christ.
And so whenever you're pressedand whenever the anger comes,
whenever the frustration comesout, should come a godly
response, because that's what'sin you.
But that doesn't happen in amicrowave, quiet time, an
(45:31):
overnight.
It takes years of cultivatingyour own heart and then pouring
love and tenderness andcultivating the marriage
relationship.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
So there we go, amen yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
All right, I think we nailed it.
Yep.
Hey, thanks so much forwatching and we'll see you next
time.
And, from our house to yours,have an awesome week of worship.
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast.
I'm your host, pastor plec,along with none other than
holland greg, pastor fromeastside community church.
Glad you are joining us thismorning thanks, chris, afternoon
afternoon so, if you didn'tknow it, uh, holland preached
this past sunday at wells branchcommunity church and it was a
delight and an honor to have himand he brought the word and
(00:27):
brought some fire, and so Iwanted to do a little bit of
review on Song of Solomon,chapter 7, and to see if any of
our fans out there werelistening and caught that he
actually started in Chapter 6,even though he didn't have the
verse on the screen.
Should we talk about that realquick, about the debated verse
of verse 13?
(00:49):
Let's do it.
It says, using the ESV returnreturn O Shulamite, return
return that we may look upon you.
And then Solomon goes.
Why should you look upon theShulamite as a dance before two
armies?
Talk to me about your thoughtson that verse.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
So this is where you're on the heels of conflict
reconciliation, yep, and youhave the others, the members of
the community, kind of speakinginto the relationship, yep, and
saying you know, return, return,as in like you know, let's
continue, all of us together,you know, like this, I don't
(01:32):
know communal type conversation,whereas the groom is saying,
you know, no, it's time for usto have some time alone, the
specific like.
I got the nkjv here where itsays what would you see in the
shulamite, as it were, the danceof the two camps?
There's a lot of ways thatverse is translated, interesting
(01:53):
, um.
So several differentinterpretations on what exactly
that means, I think.
In general, it's clear, though,that he is pulling her away
from the community, the others,the crowd, and speaking tenderly
, one-on-one to her, because inchapter seven he begins speaking
directly to her, not about her,you know, but directly to her,
(02:15):
and complimenting her, andcomplimenting her in very, you
know, intimate kind of language,and so it's clear that he's
saying, hey, it's the time oflike, kind of us all together is
over now.
One on one time with my, withmy I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
I think that's and I you know there's so much here
the the dance before two campsor two armies.
Do you think there's anycorrelation between Jacob jacob
wrestling the lord?
I know this might be a littlebit of a stretch, but I think
the two camps uh is referred toas manahayim right uh and
(02:53):
manahayim, and I think that'swhat the same maha naim, maha
naim, and I think that's whatthat was called back in Genesis.
I'm going to go with 25-ish,isn't it like 30s.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
I think it's in the 30s.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Genesis 32?
.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Maybe 25 to 32.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yeah, somewhere in that range.
Let me see if I can find it.
Maybe you're right.
Is it Genesis 32?
Yeah, 32, verse 2.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
And Jacob saw them.
He said this is God's camp.
So he called the name of thatplace Mahanaim.
And so I was like what is thatabout?
Is there any reference therefrom Solomon back to Jacob, not
wrestling with God, perhaps, butseeing God's, jacob's ladder
(03:45):
and the camp called Mahanaim?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah, I don't know.
There's no in that passage.
There's nothing about a dance.
There's no dancing there.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Except there's the wrestling with God.
Hold on, hold on.
In chapter seven it starts offwith her sandaled feet, so that
could be a reference to herdancing skills, okay.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I was saying in Genesis 32, though.
Oh right.
Of course there's nothing abouta dance going on there, right,
right, like make a connection.
If it was like you know, awrestling match, a fight, a you
know something, but a dance it'slike that's pulling from some
something that you know we'renot, or maybe there was a dance
that happened at the locationwhere jacob's ladder took place.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Anyway, I don't know.
I I just was like I was lookingfor a, an even greater old
testament, deep meaning, and Ithink I'm just I'm pulling the
air and I can't figure outanything yeah, yeah so I do
think it's just.
It's just transitioning from hey, everyone is excited to see
that this couple is reconciledand now to further reconcile.
They are going to go haveintimacy with just those two
(04:54):
together, and that's where heshowers her with compliments and
I think this really resonatedwith a lot of people.
On Sunday, If you weren't there, Holland brought up his garden
and he showed two pictures.
He didn't take a lot of peopleon Sunday If you weren't there,
Holland brought up his gardenand he showed two pictures.
He didn't take a picture of aheap of dirt.
Yeah, I should have had that.
Well, you probably could havegotten any heap of dirt and just
showed that.
And everyone would have believedyou.
But I think you don't takepictures of dirt, right, because
(05:17):
that's not impressive.
You only take pictures of yourgarden that flourishes, and the
same way, you probably don'twant to show off your marriage
as just a heap of dirt.
You want to show off a bloominggarden or a blooming marriage,
right?
So talk to us about reallywhere you were going with this
idea of watering the garden andthen transitioning to marriage.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah, so use the garden image, because it's the
main kind of imagery being used.
I almost feel like.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
For those of you who remember Phil Kwan, Phil Kwan
went to camp illustrations.
Every time You're going to thegarden illustration.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
It's springtime, all right.
This time of year, every year,every year around the Super Bowl
, you're going to get sportsillustrations from me.
That's fair.
It's springtime, you're goingto get garden illustrations.
Do sports illustrations?
Yeah, I went and I was shamedinto learning sports
specifically for my.
My preaching to connect withthat's right.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
That's the only way you can, because everybody knows
that sports illustrations arethe way to a man's heart.
Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
That's right, um.
So yeah, this is springtime,though, and so you got to use
the garden stuff and, like jesus, you know, he, he, he talked
about farming basically everyother story and so I feel like
he's slightly justified.
Can I?
Can I just go with this?
Speaker 1 (06:31):
isn't it odd that jesus talked about farming when
he could talk about carpentry?
Yeah like, why not talk aboutboards and planes and plumb
lines?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
you know?
Um, that's a good question.
When we get to heaven, I I'llask top 10.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Like why?
Why all the illustrations notabout your, your craft?
Maybe because he didn't want tobe limited as just a carpenter?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
There you go.
Well, there's something aboutyou know, it's not just um song
of Solomon and Jesus's parables.
Like, again, I brought this upin the sermon too, from the very
beginning, like, the firstscene we really see of humanity
in the Bible is in the garden,and it's the picture of bliss
and perfection before sinentered the world.
They're in a garden, things areblooming, flourishing, growing,
thriving, and so that image interms of like, something that is
(07:18):
healthy, something that is asit should be, a garden, a
vineyard, is often used todepict that, and so I gave a few
examples of that from the OldTestament, from the Psalms, and
Song of Solomon uses gardenimagery a ton.
So I showed some pictures of mygarden and I was bringing up,
though the whole point of itwith this passage in chapter
seven is saying that you don'tget a flourishing, blooming
(07:41):
garden, um, you know,automatically or accidentally it
takes work to um.
You gotta prepare the soil,plant the seeds and water it.
Yeah, and if you, if you waterit, if you do the work, you can
expect it to be healthy and growunder normal circumstances,
right, um?
But if you don't, why shouldyou expect it to be healthy?
(08:02):
If you're not doing the work ofwatering your garden, it's
going to dry, it's going to theplants will be wilted.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Wilted.
Is that right Wilted?
You said yeah, wilted is fine,but you said wilter, wilter.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
That was hilarious.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, I knew I said something I remember I was like
you know, I'm going to let thatone roll and wither.
I think I mixed those.
Yeah, yeah, but you did wilter,wiltered, maybe it was wiltered
.
I was.
As I was listening to you talk,I looked around to see if
anybody else was gone, andnobody.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
They were like yeah, wilter just say it confidently,
yeah, yeah, I knew I was like Isaid something wrong and then
right now it just came to mindagain.
But you know, not thriving notthriving.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah, nice wilter.
Uh, maybe we're making a wordand maybe it'll just all start
right here.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
There we go.
It's a good word Wilter,wiltering, it's wiltering, it
feels like a real word, anyway.
So my point was in chapterseven, the husband, his words of
affection, his compliments areessentially, you know, in the,
the metaphor of the garden.
He is watering the garden thatgod has given him.
(09:09):
His words are nourishing andnurturing his relationship with
his wife, her heart.
And then, you see, you know,starting in verse 10, her
response is that she receivesand reciprocates.
So she receives what he has tosay, instead of criticizing it
or putting it down or denying it, dismissing it.
She receives it.
She says my beloved is mine, Iam my beloved's and his desire
(09:32):
is for me.
In verse 10.
And then verse 11 through 13,she basically is like let's go,
let's go get alone together.
I want to give you my love.
And so you see that herconfidence in his love and her
desire for him comes as theresult of his words of affection
for her.
So, essentially, him showeringher with affection is like
(09:54):
watering this garden that bearsthe fruit.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
So what I liked about and I think what some might
have found difficult was you puta lot of the onus some might
have found difficult.
Was you put a lot of the onusand I think rightfully so on the
men to water the marriage andthe relationship and really like
it's your job to do that.
Now I think maybe women weremaybe listening to that and
(10:18):
they're like well, I'm screwed,it's never going to happen.
I don't know if you don't knowwho I'm married to, it's
hopeless.
My husband does not do thosethings, so I guess I just have
to sit here in sorrow.
What do you think would be somegood insight for a wife who's
experiencing that?
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Pray number one, pray for well, number one.
One, I'd say, in Christianitythere's no such thing as
hopeless.
You know, like there's always.
God is a miracle.
That's what I wanted to end thesermon with is reminding
everyone who the Lord is, thathe raises the dead, he brings
(11:00):
light out of darkness, you know,he gives sight to the blind.
Like that's who God is.
And so, if you're like there'sno way my husband's ever going
to become this kind of like,affectionate, loving, um, tender
person, um, first and foremost,you got to understand that
you're doubting what God can do,right?
So we can all understanddoubting, uh, people you know,
based on your experience of them, and, uh, you know how, how
(11:21):
they've treated you, or you know, based on your experience of
them, and you know how they'vetreated you, or you know what
their past is and all that.
But we can't doubt God andwe've got to know that God is
able to.
He's mighty to save, he's ableto change and transform anyone.
And so husbands are called tobe tender and affectionate, to
nourish and cherish their wives.
In Ephesians five, right, Ithink you taught, think you
(11:43):
taught maybe a few Sundays ago,on like rendering affection.
That's KJV, right?
Yeah, it's New King.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
James New King.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
James, yeah, yeah, there you go, rendering the
affection due to your wife.
You owe your wife affection,nourishment, cherishing her,
washing her with water of theword, right, like that's stuff.
That's a husband's obligationand responsibility to his wife
before.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
God, even if he's not a Christian, which I think is
one of the things that's.
I think I was looking atChristian memes and it was, you
know, john the Baptist.
It was like you know, john theBaptist calling out Herod for
you know, taking his brother'swife, and you know it was kind
of poking fun at people who aresuper against Christian
(12:30):
nationalism because they wouldsay like hey, here's Herod or
here's John the Baptist callingout a non-Christian to live as a
Christian.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah right.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Anyway and I think you can call it husbands to live
as Christian husbands, becausethat's what you're supposed to.
However, I do think the realityis, if you're a believing wife
and you're married to anonbeliever, I think 1 Peter 3,
1 through 6 is a great verse tosort of hold on to Like wives.
Wives be subject to your ownhusbands so that, even if some
(13:02):
do not obey the word, be subjectto your own husband, so that,
even if some do not obey theword and I guess you could say
that this even if they're aChristian who doesn't obey the
word, they may be won without aword by the conduct of their
wives when they see yourrespectful and pure conduct.
Do not let your adorning beexternal, the braiding of hair
and the putting on of goldjewelry or the clothing you wear
, but let your adorning be thehidden purse of the heart, with
(13:23):
the imperishable beauty of agentle and quiet spirit which is
, in God's sight, is veryprecious, for this is how the
holy women who hoped in God usedto adorn themselves, by
submitting to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham,
calling him Lord, and you areher children if you do good and
do not fear anything that isfrightening which I appreciated
the fear, anything that'sfrightening.
So what I hear from that iswomen, it's going to be on you.
(13:48):
If you have a husband who iseither A not a Christian, or B
just not living like a Christian, then your role is to kind of
go over the top in yourobedience and respect for him so
that he can be won over by yourrespect.
And I think when people hearthat, they hear oh so you want
(14:09):
me to be a doormat, right?
And I think that's a challengethat us, as two men, might have
a little difficulty in managing.
I think what Adrienne does forme if she feels like I am not
one who's obeying the word,she's like she'll say I want to
pray for you to change your mindabout that, or I really think
you should seek God on that andpray about that.
(14:30):
I'm not going to tell you whatto do, but I think you should be
praying about that, and that'skind of her way of saying I
think you're out of line, or Ithink you should, you know, lead
me in some way.
Um, but I think that's achallenge, I think it's a real
challenging thing, and what Idon't want to happen is women,
because here's how I think somewomen might take this.
Chris, I took six months.
(14:50):
I will get that output, and sotherefore, this is an
unconditional promise of Godthat when I obey my husband, he
(15:12):
will treat me right and be wonover by my conduct.
And I don't think that's whatthe Scripture is saying or that
your hope is there, but becauseyou hope in God so much that it
is reflected in your obedienceto your husband.
Thoughts on that.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot in the Bible that talks
about if you do this, then thiswill happen in a principle, yeah
, a general principle you reapwhat you sow.
It's a biblical principle.
So it's not, you know, thekarma idea of just like you're
putting some kind of energy intothe universe and it's going to
(15:50):
come around, but it's more oflike God has designed the world
and human beings andrelationships and society to
function a certain kind of way.
And so you, in the same waythat you can expect, if you
plant a seed and water it, itwill grow Right Now.
Does that happen every time?
No, sometimes a squirrel comesand, you know, plucks it out of
the ground, or a bird takes it,or a, you know, a dog comes and
(16:10):
takes a dump on your garden andyou know, like there's all kinds
of stuff that's like okay,doesn't that fertilize?
Maybe it does Okay, yeah, notideal for like herbs and stuff
that you want to eat, I don'tknow, but you know what I mean.
Like there's, under normalcircumstances, if you plant a
seed and water it, it will giveyou this result.
(16:30):
I think you can say with firstpeter three um, under normal
circumstances, if you have agentle, quiet spirit and you are
submissive to your own husband,um, then your conduct, or it
says, may win them over.
It's not a input, this get youknow automatic, like of course
(16:50):
we, I'm sure you know, we knowstories.
Maybe there's even peoplelistening that are like, like
you said, I've been doing that,I haven't seen that result, and
maybe it's, you know, the Lord'stiming versus our timing type
thing.
You've been doing it for sixmonths.
It may be six years before yousee that change.
So yeah, it's not an exactlytransactional thing, but there
(17:13):
are principles.
In the same way that it's likeif you disciple your kids and
pray for them and read the Biblewith them, they're going to
grow up knowing and loving theword and the church.
But if you have a duplicitouslife where you go to church on
Sundays and then you never talkabout the Lord at home, you can
kind of expect them to probablynot want anything to do with the
(17:34):
church and Christianity.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
One of the things you told me now, from a husband's
perspective, like I've beenwatering and watering and
watering and nothing, it's justmud, and I think you I don't
know if you want to tell thestory, but I'm gonna put you on
the spot with it uh, I think youtold us the, as you wish,
princess bride story.
So tell me about that and andhow, uh, you've sort of just
(17:57):
chosen in your life to respondyeah, uh, I think this was like
not even too long ago on thepodcast, but um talking, about
like here I yeah, it was on, itwas on, it was.
Yeah, I thought we were talkingabout somewhere else.
No, it was on.
Oh man, this is like this.
I'm older now.
I sort of dementia.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
I probably sitting in very old yeah, um, what, uh, I
can't remember what it was, butit was something about like what
our pet peeves were.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Your wife said or no, your pet peeve for your wife
was her asking you to godownstairs and get her a drink
of water or something.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Well, not downstairs One-story house.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
But you know same thing.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Sorry, it was like.
So, when I'm all ready for bedand you know I I've brushed my
teeth, I've plugged in my phone,I put you know.
And then I get in bed and myhead hits the pillow and at that
point she's like can I have aglass of water?
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Also, I don't know where my phone charger is.
Can you find it?
And also, you know, it's likeman, I've been up, moving around
closing down the house, lockingdoors.
You know, if you would haveasked me that any other point, I
could have just done it while Iwas already up, right, but then
when I finally hit my head,hits the pillow, I'm ready to
crash.
Then you ask and it would likefrustrate me to no end, um, but
(19:16):
I decided one day I was like youknow what Cause?
Like well, it happened, andshe'd asked me.
And then I would have thiscrisis moment of like Jesus
would say yes, serve your wife,but I don't want to.
And it's annoying.
You know that?
Why?
How?
Why does it just like get youknow, ask me at a different time
, like she needs to change.
And I'll get into this war inmy head where I'm one.
(19:37):
One sense I'd be like serveyour wife, be like Jesus, and on
the other hand, it'd be like noboundaries.
She needs to learn.
And then I just decided, nomatter what, I'm just gonna say
yes and this is gonna be one ofthe ways that I um serve my wife
.
It's not really that big of adeal at the end of the day.
It's very small um, but itfeels big when you're like in
your flesh, but anyway.
So I decided like I'm justgonna say yes, no matter what,
(19:59):
and I told her that I said umfrom now on, because there are
times when I said no and shewould be like your wife is your
love of your life that you madevows to, is asking you, and I'm
like you have legs you can't get.
You're not even tired.
You're like watching a show onyour phone right now.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
I'm watching a show simultaneously.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
You know, and, and so then I would get mad, and so,
anyway, there would be timeswhen I said no, and you know,
and so then I would get mad, andso, anyway, there would be
times when I said no, and youknow, and felt justified in it,
but I was like you know what I'mjust gonna?
This is gonna be a way that Iserve my wife.
I told her, I said I'm gonnasay yes, no matter what.
So if you ask me, I will do it.
And um, and I say as you wish,princess bride, and uh, and it's
it.
Uh, makes me laugh when I do ittakes out.
(20:44):
You know just like it makes itsomething when I do it Takes out
, you know just like makes itsomething fun and sweet and cute
instead of you know, have youever run into RUSs?
Oh, r-o-u-ss Rodents of UnusualSize.
I have two of them.
One of them's 12 years old,grumpy old dog and has a problem
, and then our puppy, molly.
They're the main reason I don'tsleep at night anymore.
(21:06):
All my kids sleep through thenight.
Now and now my dogs get up andI have to take them out wow,
right, you don't resolve that.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
What'd you say, doggy door will solve it yeah, that's
my.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
That's what I'm thinking about right now all
right, well, that's good, okay.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
So, um, as you were talking on on sunday, I was
excited because it made me wantto talk about something this
sunday and I thought I'd giveyou a gift.
Are you ready for your gift?
I'm ready, all right.
So you remember the Mr Weenieposter size.
Put it on your refrigerator sothat you knew how to argue.
Of course I do, okay.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
You have updated.
I have updated.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
With a new logo.
With a new logo, I know I'mlike Wow, yeah.
I know I'm like wow, yeah, yeah.
So I, I, I was pretty motivatedand I was like I think I might
even talk about this on Sunday.
Somehow I'm going to work it inCause.
I was like you talked aboutnegative interpretation, yeah,
yeah, and I was like I am goingto find a way to put it in there
.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Fastest way to kill the joy in your marriage is mind
reading negative interpretation.
Yeah, I know what you meant bythat and it was bad.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Yeah, yeah.
So I kind of I think that'skind of fun.
So I've been excited abouthanding these out.
These are refrigerator officialmagnets.
You don't even need a magnetfor your paper.
This is all one large magnet.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
I can't wait to go home?
Yeah, and you can put it upthere.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Put this on my fridge , my fridge, yeah, this is
already on my fridge at home,next to my wells branch events
calendar magnet.
That is up there hey, listen,there's only one air on the
wells branch events calendar.
The volleyball tournament is nolonger july 19th, I think it's
august 9th.
So that's for free, all right,everybody wanted to know that.
Um, yeah, so mine.
So the first one is mindreading, which is where I assume
(22:45):
the worst of you and I'm likeno, assume the best.
Boom, philippians 4a whatever'snoble, whatever is right,
whatever's true, whatever'sbeautiful.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yeah, which I brought up because he says your belly
is a heap of wheat right and shecould have been like turp on
that yeah, she could have beenlike, what do you mean by that?
yeah, why do you know?
And like gotten offended andthat.
But her response after all ofit is she assumes the best of
everything that he said.
Instead of being like that'sall you want is, you know, all
(23:13):
you talk about is this, or whatyou really meant is this, and
you don't really mean that.
Like she doesn't go thatdirection with anything, even
though we can understand, maybe,like our wives, maybe feeling
those things, having thosefeelings, like maybe just due to
some insecurity.
You don't really mean that.
But she chooses to receive hiswords and to trust his words, to
(23:33):
assume the best of his intentand to receive them as love.
And that's actually reallyimportant for wives to be able
to do that and say I believe you, thank you.
That means a lot that you wouldsay to me, say that to me, and
so it's not.
You know, I was mainly, I think, pressing the men in terms of
speaking those words ofaffection, but because I think
that's the main focus of thatsection.
(23:54):
But there is the side of thewives saying to receive that and
to nurture.
That, like back to yourquestion is like what if your
husband doesn't do that, nurtureevery single shred of it.
You know, if he gives somethinglike, let him know.
I think you say a lot.
What gets rewarded getsrepeated right Gets repeated.
Yeah, you know, if your husbandsays something complimentary,
(24:15):
thank him for that.
Let him know how much it meansto you when he says those kinds
of things, and he'll say themmore.
You know what gets rewardedgets repeated, and that will
actually strengthen your bond asyou make that more and more of
a norm in your home.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Yeah.
The second one was withdrawal,which I don't know if you've
ever experienced this, wheneveryou're getting I call it
emotionally flooded, and if youdon't know what that means, like
whenever you get triggered bysomething.
I see this with my kids a lot.
Maybe it's probably the easiestway, like when they either go
into, they're emotionallyflooded, they'll either fight my
(24:47):
youngest son, paxton, just goesstraight up screaming, throwing
things.
He goes to fight.
Or flight, where, like Titus,he runs away and hides in a
little under the or behind thechair, so I can't find him
because he's angry and has hisfeelings hurt.
He's angry and has his feelingshurt.
(25:08):
Or freeze, where you just likecheck out mentally or get on
some sort of device or justescape the moment, but you're
actually there, right in front,right there, just checked out.
Or fake, where you have acompliance, where I say
absolutely I'll do that and youhave no intention, but you fake
the, you say the right words sothat you can kind of get out of
the situation and you now moveon.
So but what people do wheneverthey withdraw is that they I
(25:30):
think what happens is they getso angry or so frustrated.
A lot of guys will just shutdown.
This is a lot of men actuallythat do this.
And so there's three types ofcouples.
There's a couple that's kind ofgoing at it all the time.
I call that the italian couple.
They're usually yelling eachother, fighting each other.
There's a victorian couple whoare like oriented back to back
(25:53):
and they don't talk about theirproblems or feelings or issues.
Uh, they just pretend they haveno problems and they're really
great at facebook, at faking it.
And then you've got uh, likethe the american couple, where
usually, usually it's the wifewho's agitated and she's always
trying to go and pick a fightwith her husband.
Her husband's just like leaveme alone, all I want is peace.
And so the most healthy coupleis the Italian couple.
(26:17):
Just take out the screaming andthe punching and you're
committed to pursuing oneanother.
But if it gets to a point whereyou're emotionally flooded,
where you're not making anyforward progress, stopping and
then say hey, I need to go pray,for I need to go and pray for
15 minutes hour, I don't know, acouple hours and we're going to
meet on this again is sovaluable and I think that
(26:40):
there's a lot of health there,and I think what happens for a
lot of us're like I'm gonnafight this thing out, and one of
the couple, one of the people,is like they're all, they're
about, all about pursuing it.
I want to pursue thisrelationship and the other
person is overwhelmed, crushed,defeated, and they're checked
out or they're about you.
You've got to a point wherethey're about to go fisticuffs
and I think that's where,ultimately, you need to kind of
(27:00):
slow down and having a plan forthat of, hey, I'm going to take
15 minutes and I'm going to prayor just get my mind clear and
come back when I'm ready toemotionally engage that, I think
, has been really helpful for alot of couples.
To have a time and location.
You know, like you know, don'ttext me every two minutes as I'm
going to walk around the blockbecause I need to cool off or
(27:22):
whatever.
Next one I have is exaggeration.
Don't use words like always ornever.
You always or never.
You always do this, you neverdo that.
What that does is it demonizesthe person.
It takes the focus off theperson, I'm sorry, off the
behavior and onto the person,because if you're always doing
(27:48):
evil things, then you're theproblem, not the action, but if
it's the action, that's aproblem that you did.
Now I can address the behaviorand not the fact that I'm a
complete, total devil.
Next one, which you got into alittle bit.
I call it extrapolation.
It's where you take the momentright now and it's going to be
like this, where my spouse willnever change.
That's catastrophizing whatyou're really saying.
If you're saying my spouse willnever change, you are so bad
that God can't change you andGod is not strong enough,
(28:10):
powerful enough to change thesituation.
And so it's like a.
It's a double whammy, becauseyou're saying the person is like
unchangeable, they'reirredeemable, and God is so weak
and small that he can't changethat.
Which is why I say like, listen, the person might be the worst
person on the planet, but Godcan change anyone, yeah, amen.
And then the negativeinterpretation which you got
(28:32):
into, like where you twist hey,your belly is like a heap of
wheat.
Well, well, well, what are youthinking about?
No, it's like I assume thatyou're assuming the worst of me,
as opposed to just simplyreceiving the compliment you me,
as opposed to just simplyreceiving the compliment, you're
twisting a benign or even ahealthy statement and turning it
negative.
And then invalidation.
I think this happens a ton.
(28:53):
It's where someone gets hurtand I brought this up the week
before A person who's ajustice-oriented person will say
, oh yeah, you can't say that tome.
I'm going to say this to you,all right, that doesn't help.
But then there's also peoplethat are all about mercy and
they'll say like, hey, you justhurt my feelings and I'll absorb
(29:14):
it and I'm not going to sayanything.
And although that's helpfulwith people you don't know, like
, the person you give mercy tois the road raging dude that
flips you off on the highway andcontinues on their way and you
go.
I am not going to let thataffect me.
But when you do a mercy typething with your spouse, you're
(29:34):
stuffing emotion because you'restill dealing with that person.
What grace looks like is hey,it's your benefit at my expense.
I'm going to go through thepain of explaining to you
something that hurt me and thengive you a pathway to
forgiveness.
And that's ultimately whatJesus does, right.
He gives us, he lets us knowour sins.
It's kindness leads us torepentance.
(29:56):
It's kindness for him to revealto us how our darkness and
wickedness has affected ourrelationship with God.
He does the work of dying onthe cross and being raised from
the dead, providing a pathway ofreconciliation.
In the same way, when I bringup the sin that my spouse has
committed against me and I saylisten, here's a pathway to
forgiveness.
Jesus died for you.
I've forgiven you, but I wantyou to know that this hurts me
(30:18):
and I want to provide an avenuethat we can talk about this in a
way that's healthy.
And so what I always tellcouples is like when the person
that gets hurt and say I feelhurt because you did this thing,
then the person goes I'm sorry,I did that, and they empathize.
That would be.
If I were you, I would be soupset, I'd be angry.
I can totally understand whyyou got that frustrated.
Will you forgive me?
(30:40):
And then the spouse, if theyfeel like they know or the
offending spouse understandstheir pain and hurt, they can go
, yeah, I forgive you, or theygo, no, I don't think you get it
.
You're just saying words rightnow, and here's the real issue.
Then the offending spouse triesagain to forgive Eventually.
(31:00):
Will you forgive me?
Yes, when they understand.
How can I make it right?
Forgiveness is given without.
What are you going to do tomake this right?
Trust is earned, so you canbuild up trust in the
relationship through changingyour behavior, and then finally,
escalation, which is justsimply kind of battling up,
battling up.
(31:20):
So these are the negative things.
Are the negative things if, ifwatering, with compliments in in
serving and loving, and giftsand sex and positive things are
a way to water, uh, one of theways that you can not take rocks
and litter it, litter, put salt, not salt the uh, the garden is
(31:43):
by, um, not using thesetechniques or these negative
techniques and prevent them.
And I think this is just ahelpful arguing tool to go like
oh, I am mind reading, oh, I amnegatively interpreting.
Anyway, that's why I put theseon the fridge to help people
understand how to communicate,especially when there's so much
anger present.
Yeah, that's good, all right.
So let's talk about the end ofthe chapter in Song of Solomon,
(32:11):
chapter 7, wraps up with—well,not wraps up.
I like this one.
This is why I think it's makeup sex.
By the way and I know that itwas not the primary thing you
were talking about I will say Isay I will climb the palm tree
and lay hold of its fruit.
Yeah, climb the palm tree andlay hold of its fruit.
Yeah and uh or oh.
(32:31):
May your breasts be likeclusters of the vine and your
scent of your breath like applesand your mouth like the best
wine.
So he wants to touch herbreasts and kiss her, and then
she's like it goes down smoothlyfor my beloved, gliding over
lips and teeth, and then he, andthen she's like I'm my beloved
and his desires for me.
Come, my beloved, let's go inthe fields, in the countryside,
and there I will give you mylove.
(32:52):
This is complete.
I want to go get alone with you, have sex with you, enjoy you,
and obviously predicated bycompliments, predicated by right
treatment and really devotingintimacy, which I really
appreciate that he takes heraway from the Shulamite, or
(33:13):
sorry, takes the Shulamite awayfrom the crowd to say, hey, this
is how I feel about you.
I'm not just doing this forshow, this isn't just a Facebook
or Instagram or social mediapost of how much I love you.
This is me communicating to youspecifically, outside the realm
of social media, to let youknow how much I love you, and I
think that's an important aspect.
(33:33):
Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Amen.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Yeah, I mean pretty much, we covered it all.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
I think so.
I think you know there's, youcould.
I mean, there's so much to sayabout this.
You could do a whole sermonjust on verse 11 through 13 and
the wife's role of like giveyour husband your love.
Really, the majority of thechapter, nine verses of it is
(34:01):
the husband really initiatingand leading with his words.
But you could really do a whole, you could do the same passage
this Sunday and really focus onthe wife's role of like her
communicating her desire, hercommitting to give herself to
her husband, like it's not just,it doesn't all fall to the man
(34:21):
I think that's important tobring up sometimes is like we
really emphasize the man's rolein leading, initiating, but the
wife's role is here too, to likereally nurture the love and
intimacy of the marriage.
And you see a humble, a loving,a healthy, godly, submissive
woman here who wants to love herhusband and give him her love,
(34:43):
and so something great aboutthat too.
And you know, if you're like,what do I do if my husband, you
know, doesn't show affection andstuff like that?
In the same way, in 1 Peter 3,like you can win him over by
your godly conduct.
You may win him over to beingmore romantic by you know, you
being extra intimate andaffectionate with him and really
(35:05):
taking you know what you seehere in these verses and being
like I'm just going to give him,instead of cutting off
affection because I'm notgetting what I want from him,
I'm going to, you know, givemore affection.
I'm going to pray.
The Lord changes his heart.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
So I love that.
I feel like that's the partwhere we, I think, what happens
for us.
We want quick fixes, yeah, wewant, you know, a life hack to
relationship and you just can'tit's it's you're going to build
trust over time.
Your even your six months ofrighteous behavior may not
override the nine years ofnegative behavior, uh, that your
(35:41):
spouse is still recovering from, and so you can't go.
I've been doing it for since,whatever it's gotta be like, I
am being transformed and I'mgoing to get an, as you wish,
mentality to be a servant of myspouse, not just a, not just
someone that's looking totransactionally get what I need,
which is peace in the house.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
And it's not saying to be a doormat on either side
you talked about.
It's not the wife being adoormat.
It's also not the husband beinga doormat.
A doormat, it's also not thehusband being a doormat.
Like you know, with the as youwish thing, it doesn't mean you
abdicate your leadership, yourinfluence, your authority in the
marriage or anything like that.
It means that you look for waysto love and serve and bless.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
I think this becomes hard.
How do you do that?
How?
How do you tell?
How do you have healthyconflict?
How do you tell your wife no,and you're not going.
Happy wife, happy life.
You're going.
I don't know something betterthan that.
You're saying I am going tolead you beyond your emotion of
(36:41):
the moment.
I know you want to be happyright now.
I'm going to lead you to aplace where there's greater joy
and you're going to have tofollow.
How do men do that withoutcoming off as controlling,
without coming off as I don'tknow, some sort of jerk in that
moment?
I think that's the part where Ithink men are really struggling
is they don't know, likethey're trying to remain calm,
(37:05):
they might be dealing with.
Their wife has gotten emotional, she's now crying and you're
just like I just want to stopthe tears, I just want to stop
this moment.
How do I engage in a way thatkind of leads my family to the
direction it's supposed to go?
What do you think?
And again, there isn't a fixall.
But what do you think some ofthe strategies here are in those
moments?
Speaker 2 (37:25):
And yeah, that's a great question.
I think that if you don't havethe character and history of
humility and confidence andgodliness and devotion to Christ
and being servant-hearted, it'sway harder to try to lead your
(37:48):
home.
You don't have to—authorauthority in marriage isn't
something that you earn.
It's just.
That is how that's what it isthe husband is the head of the
wife.
Whether he is good head or abad head, he's the head.
So you don't have to earn that.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
But because we've all had bad bosses that we've had
to deal with.
Yeah, and you could be marriedto someone that's a bad boss
yeah, or and for a bad employeefor that matter.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Yeah, if you're, if you're the husband and you are
you, you lack integrity andcharacter.
and then you, you try to um, youknow, really, use your, your
positional authority to sayhere's where we're going, like
that's not gonna be pleasantexperience, right?
And so your wife might submit,she might fake, she might submit
(38:33):
because she's really godly andshe knows that that's the right
godly thing to do.
Or she might submit just out offear, like I don't want to rock
the boat, I don't want to upsethim, but like that's not the
desirable ideal situation.
The ideal situation is ahusband who loves like Jesus and
serves like Jesus, who usesauthority to bless and build up
his family to, you know, um,draw out all that God has for
(38:56):
his wife.
You know, to serve her, but like, uh, I think for a lot of men
today in our culture, there is,um, a sense of like, I want to,
um, I want to be a goodspiritual leader, but I don't
necessarily know how, because Iwas never taught.
That, I think, is the hugeproblem.
So, uh, and now you know, andwhen you, when you realize like,
(39:20):
oh man, I think I've been doingit wrong and I want to do it
right, but you're 10 years in orsomething, or five years into
your marriage it's, and nowyou're trying to, and what
you've been doing for five or 10years is essentially being a
doormat.
And now you try to say, okay,I'm going to like step into this
role, I'm going to try to leadmy family and your wife's like
what is wrong with you?
Speaker 1 (39:39):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (39:39):
you're doing, you know, like that's a whole.
I mean you got to.
The main thing, I think, tokeep in mind with all of that is
to be very patient, to beconfident with God's design for
marriage and to lean into yourrole, but to be very patient if
it's not going the way you wantit to, and to be humble.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Yeah, I think one of the things that really has
struck me as I've challengedcouples is that a husband has to
model submission.
Well, how can he do that ifhe's not supposed to be mutually
submitting?
He is supposed to submithimself to Christ, right?
So like in your submission toJesus.
And you might even lead likethis and saying like hey, I
really feel like the Lord hascalled me to get up at a certain
amount of time to spend timewith the Lord.
(40:18):
I really feel like the Lord iscalling me and you're not just
using phrases.
It's not here's your phrase,but rather it's you have a
genuine heart to serve the Lord.
Here's why I feel like the Lordis calling me.
Here's why I feel like the Lordis calling me.
Here's where God is leading me.
This is why I've learned fromGod's word.
(40:38):
I need to personally change andI need to do a better job of
leading you.
One of the ways that the Lordhas convicted me that I'm going
to lead better is in this thingof serving you.
When you lead off with all ofthat, it's a lot easier to
follow.
Now you might have a wife orspouse looking at you, going
yeah, right, you're not going tochange.
You talked to somebody, youwent to a conference, you heard
a sermon, you did something andyou're going to be a better guy
(40:59):
for all of one week and I'm notpreparing my heart and mind for
that.
That should not change how youemploy.
You stick with it and overcome,because you're more than a
conqueror.
I think what happens with menwhen they get rejected by their
wives they shut down, they quit,they go back into their
passivity, and I think that'swhere you double down in your
(41:19):
love, affection, water thegarden even more and then lean
into it, or else you are goingto ultimately be frustrated on
the sideline.
You may spend years cultivatingbefore you see fruit, but there
is fruit on the other side ofit.
Principally, I would say.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Yeah, amen.
And there's something about theway that God has designed men
and women too, that, like youknow the principle of 1 Peter 3,
winning your husband over byyour conduct.
There's something in a man that, when a wife you know, when
your wife comes to you,submissive, um, gentle, wanting
(41:58):
to like, honor you and respectyou, that does something in you
that makes you be like, wow, Iwant to take care of you.
You know, like man that, uh,you would.
There's it like, awakens orignites something inside of you
to want to be a better man.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
And so I think so.
I think that's important.
I think I don't want to saylike here's your lever to pull.
Yeah, right, here is a seed tosow.
Yeah, like the seed you aresowing, woman, wife, is respect
your husband and obey him as thesaints of old.
And then I think, on the flipside, husbands this is 1 Peter,
(42:35):
3, 7, live with your wives in anunderstanding way.
I don't know if that meansyou'll actually ever understand
her, but it means that you'regoing to live with her in an
understanding way, like you'renot going to mind read, you're
not going to invalidate, you'regoing to kind of go.
I'm going to seek first tounderstand, then to be
understood.
I'm going to ask lots ofquestions, I'm going to find
(42:55):
your heart, I'm going to get myPhD in my wife and go.
I want to learn and that whenyou start to understand her,
when she starts to feel like youget it, then I think it's going
to calm the frenetic, anxious,angered heart and then she'll go
like he gets me, I can trusthim.
I think that's usually thereason why there's so much
(43:16):
emotive anxiousness from thewife to the husband is like she
doesn't feel, like heunderstands, like I think, if
I'm just thinking over all thecoaching that I've done and just
looking at God's word to yourpoint that this is the seed a
husband needs to plan.
It's like I want to understandyou, even if that means I need
to understand the way you feelabout me, the way that my
(43:38):
actions are coming off to you.
And if you sit down and takeout the emotion for the moment
and go tell me how the way I'vebeen treating you makes you feel
you are now transforming themarriage because she feels
closer to you, feel you are nowtransforming the marriage
because she feels closer to youeven if she's saying the most
harshest things she might belike.
And when you said that in frontof the children and when you
(44:00):
said that at whatever the thingwas, and you made the joke and
you did the thing, I was justdeeply hurt by that and you go
oh wow, I had had no idea.
Thank you for sharing that withme.
Getting into apologies.
It might create a little bit,stir up some anger, but
ultimately I think it's going todraw a husband and wife closer
and that's the seed that is tobe sown for reconciliation.
(44:23):
Anyway.
I I think that that's thatshould be the heartbeat of a
marriage that's trying to growcloser, uh, together, okay, um,
but I think.
But I think what we tend to doand I now I'm in first peer
three is like of a marriagethat's trying to grow closer
together, okay, but I think whatwe tend to do and now I'm in
first peer three is like finally, all of you have unity of mind,
sympathy, brotherly love, atender heart and humble mind.
Do not repay evil for evil orreviling for reviling man, but,
(44:43):
on the contrary, bless.
For this to this you werecalled, you may obtain a
blessing.
If there is one marriage pieceof advice, don't fight fire with
fire.
When your spouse says I'mcalling the lawyer, in your head
you're like I'm going to get mylawyer too.
I think the route is like Ilove you, I love you.
I always say this whenever Icoach couples.
(45:07):
Whenever you squeeze a grapeand you crush it, out comes
grape juice, because a grapecrushed, produces grape juice,
because that's what's inside.
Whenever you crush a Christian,out should come Christ.
And so whenever you're pressedand whenever the anger comes,
whenever the frustration comesout, should come a godly
response, because that's what'sin you.
But that doesn't happen in amicrowave, quiet time, an
(45:31):
overnight.
It takes years of cultivatingyour own heart and then pouring
love and tenderness andcultivating the marriage
relationship.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
So there we go, amen yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
All right, I think we nailed it.
Yep.
Hey, thanks so much forwatching and we'll see you next
time.
And, from our house to yours,have an awesome week of worship.
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