August 1, 2025 • 28 mins
Show Notes
In this powerful second part of our conversation with Dr. Ioana Popa, we dive into practical solutions for ministry leaders struggling with financial stress and burnout. Dr. Popa shares her holistic framework for preventing burnout while maintaining healthy money boundaries, revealing how unmet emotional needs sabotage financial decisions and why traditional approaches often fail in ministry contexts.
Discover the "beach ball effect" of suppressing financial needs, learn why your wallet and calendar are mirrors of your heart, and get actionable steps for creating sustainable daily rhythms that protect both your ministry effectiveness and family relationships. From the "couch analogy" for managing time and resources to establishing "mini vacations" throughout your day, this episode provides the practical framework ministry leaders need to thrive financially and emotionally.
00:01:00 - Welcome to the Pastors & Money Podcast
00:02:00 - Financial Mindsets and Practical Solutions
00:03:00 - The Brick Illustration and Healthy Financial Boundaries
00:04:00 - Understanding the Connection Between Emotional Needs and Financial Health
00:06:00 - The Importance of Healthy Money Boundaries
00:07:00 - The Beach Ball Analogy: Managing Emotional and Physical Needs
00:08:00 - A Holistic Approach to Healthy Money Boundaries for Pastors
00:10:00 - Managing Emotions and Mind for Better Financial Decisions
00:12:00 - Physical Health and Financial Boundaries
00:15:00 - The Couch Analogy: Managing Time and Financial Resources
00:17:00 - Creating Intentional Financial and Time Boundaries
00:19:00 - Protecting Family Relationships While Setting Healthy Money Boundaries
00:23:00 - Regenerating and Avoiding Burnout
00:26:00 - Resources and Closing Remarks
What You'll Learn
How suppressed needs (whether financial, relational, physical, etc.) create a "beach ball effect" that eventually explodes
Why your wallet and calendar reveal the true condition of your heart
The connection between unmet emotional needs and poor money decisions
How to apply a holistic body-mind-heart-soul approach to financial wellness
Practical strategies for setting healthy boundaries around time and money
The "couch analogy" for understanding resource allocation and transition times
Why your family is your first ministry and how to protect those relationships
A simple 4-times-daily rhythm for preventing burnout while maintaining boundaries
How to create intentional "spontaneous giving" budgets that serve others without sacrificing stability
Key Quotes
"When we don't take care of some needs, they're really gonna pop up like a beach ball. How long can we hold it under water? It is just gonna pop even more with vengeance." - Dr. Ioana Popa
"Your wallet and your calendar is kind of like a mirror, right? You can see your priorities, you can see where your heart is. Well, if your heart's in trouble, it's gonna show up in your finances." - Joy Suzanne Hunt
"Whatever you say yes to, you actually say no to something else. So think of it as a room, like, if I'm gonna bring two more couches in this already crowded room, where am I gonna move around?" - Dr. Ioana Popa
"Time is the only non-renewable resource. You can go make more money... But time is all you got. We all get the same amount." - Joy Suzanne Hunt
About Our Guest
Dr. Ioana Popa is a national board-certified life and leadership coach, physician, psychiatrist, and spiritual care provider with a Master's in Theology. As co-founder of Team for the Soul and host of the Thriving in Christ Podcast, Dr. Ioana helps Christian professionals and ministry leaders prevent burnout and build sustainable habits for kingdom work. Her approach uniquely integrates science, psychology, and Christian faith through programs like Renewal in Action and one-on-one coaching.
Resources Mentioned
Team for the Soul: teamforthesoul.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
when we, don't take care ofsome needs, they're really
(00:02):
gonna pop up like a beach ball.
Mm-hmm.
it under water for howlong can we do that?
It is just gonna popeven more with vengeance.
And people tried many spiritual circles.
They try repression.
Oh, let me not think about the thoughtsor not think about the emotions.
He works for a while, like that beachball or like a pressure cooker, and at
some point things explode and it's just.
(00:26):
Unnecessary pain.
They can be prevented.
Welcome to the Pastors & Money Podcast.
I'm Joy Suzanne Hunt, pastor and financialcoach, bringing you conversations
about personal finance, church financeand how we disciple our churches in
(00:47):
the areas of finance and stewardship.
You can find the episode show notes,and more at pastorsandmoney.com.
And here's the show.
Our guest today is Dr. Ioana Popa,a national board certified life
(01:11):
and leadership coach, physician,psychiatrist, and spiritual care
provider with a Master's in Theology.
As co-founder of Team for the Soul andhost of the Thriving in Christ Podcast,
Dr. Ioana helps christian professionalsand ministry leaders prevent burnout and
build sustainable habits for kingdom work.
Her approach uniquely integratesscience, psychology and Christian
(01:34):
faith through programs like the renewaland action and one-on-one coaching.
When not serving others, sheenjoys spending time with
her husband and four childrengardening and contemplative prayer.
In part one, Dr. Ioana Popa and Iexplored how ministry stress and
burnout connect to financial struggles.
Now I want to continue ourconversation where Dr. Popa asked
(01:54):
about the financial mindsets.
I see.
Because her response leads us intopractical solutions for the underlying
issues, how to manage our time, energy,and emotional resources so we don't
end up making poor financial decisionsfrom a place of stress and exhaustion.
Let's get into our interview.
So I'm curious, what are yourthoughts, joy, because your podcast
(02:15):
is about this and I'm curious whatkind of mindsets you are encountering.
Yeah.
I mean that's one of the bigones that I feel like it kind of
underlies things of that if you.
If you have money that that means thatyou're selfish or if you have money,
if you have wealth, that means you'rehoarding, which is not the same thing.
No.
(02:35):
In the financial piece class,there's this great illustration
about money being a tool, and,Dave Ramsey talks about a brick.
And how you can use a brickto bash through a window.
Don't do that.
Yes, please.
Right?
You can use a brick to build a house.
Yes.
use a brick to build ahospital or a church, right?
The brick doesn't care.
The brick doesn't have a say.
(02:56):
The brick is a tool, right?
but if we have that mindset, oreven if it's just kind of coloring
things in the background, then.
We'll feel like, oh, I can't savefor retirement because that's
taking away from X, Y, Z, right?
Or, I can't do these things.
And we don't realize theimpact of those things.
(03:17):
You know, to use retirement as anexample, there are churches that are
falling apart because their pastorcan't retire, but needs to retire.
And so they're not really able todo the job well anymore because of
whatever physical or mental situationthey have going on as they age.
But because they didn't set aside and alot of the denominations and organizations
(03:40):
are doing a much better job now, Ifeel like, of educating people of, hey,
you need to be setting aside for this,you need to be preparing for this.
But if you have that mindset,that's not quite right.
It could get in the way of that.
The other thing I wasthinking about too is.
It's almost like this cyclicalthing where on the one hand, back
(04:02):
to Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
Some of those financial things arepart of that foundational, if you can't
fix the roof, you've got a problem.
Right.
Yes,
like Exactly.
You've got, you know, right.
Exactly.
You've got a problem.
You need to take care of those things.
if you're not.
Able to take care of those thingsfinancially, it's gonna be causing
(04:23):
strain on other parts of your ministry.
But also, if you think about what Isee as a financial coach all the time
is somebody has got some emotionalneed that they are soothing with
money instead of taking care of it.
Oh, absolutely.
They have a spending problem or they havea drug problem, or they have a serial
(04:48):
relationship problem or whatever itis, because they're not taking care of
some of those emotional needs and maybethey don't have close friendships, and
so in order to turn into eating, we'refilling that need some other way and.
A lot of times, you know, thecoaching world, we'll talk about
like your wallet and your calendaris kind of like a mirror, right?
(05:10):
You can see your priorities,you can see where your heart is.
Well, if your heart's in trouble,it's gonna show up in your finances.
Right, right.
Whether, whether that's a shows up inoverspending or whether that shows up in,
something that you're spending on that'sjust not in line with your priorities.
It's going to manifest there.
And so it kind of creates this cycleof maybe you had the finances, but
(05:34):
they're not, you know, maybe you havethe income, but it's not healthy because
it's being used to soothe something else.
Exactly, and I think you make a greatpoint that our relationship with money and
our relationship with time is essential.
That tells us about the values.
And I think it's so important thatyou are doing this, process of
(05:55):
educating people around finances.
Because if we have a poor relationshipwith money, and then let's say someone is
having a smaller, big addiction or using,siphoning the money in other ways, you
know, they might feel even worse and more.
They feel shame and theymight wanna hide this.
I mean, that can bringrelationship problems.
(06:16):
I mean, it can bring so many
Mm-hmm.
everything is gonna, snowball.
So it is important when we realize thatit is something really precious that,
Mm-hmm.
it's a precious tool.
And when we give it the rightperspective and we're not afraid of
not having it or having too much or.
We're just respectful with it.
(06:38):
It just becomes so much more, helpfulin a building for the kingdom.
So,
Yeah, I know.
The Bible says, where your treasureis there, your heart will be,
yeah.
means that if we look at whereour treasure is, it can tell us
about the condition of our heart.
That's right
Um
care of the needs,especially emotional needs
(07:00):
mm-hmm.
needs, and the body
Mm-hmm.
are so important, I cannot stress.
And I love, I love that you broughtthat in the, when we, don't take
care of some needs, they're reallygonna pop up like a beach ball.
Mm-hmm.
it under water for howlong can we do that?
It is just gonna popeven more with vengeance.
And people tried many spiritual circles.
(07:22):
They try repression.
Oh, let me not think about the thoughtsor not think about the emotions.
He works for a while, like that beachball or like a pressure cooker, and at
some point things explode and it's just.
Unnecessary pain.
They can be prevented.
If we bring the foundationand we learn how to regenerate
(07:42):
body, mind, heart, and soul.
We learn how to stay alignedwith our vision, our purpose.
We have these beautiful relationshipwith money in a healthy way,
with time with our family.
So whatever we do, we can keepdoing for the glory of God.
Yeah.
You've mentioned that body,mind, heart, and soul.
So how does that, holistic approachapply specifically to pastors?
(08:07):
What are some things thatpastors might need to look into?
I think the biggest mistake that I'veseen happening with pastors, I don't
know if I told you I was in a. workedin a seminar as a counselor and also
did, you know, counseling with pastors.
And, um, the biggest mistakes I've seenis that yes, we might accept the spiritual
(08:30):
growth and taking care spiritually and,and that sometimes can get into rigid.
Places like, I have to pray this specificorder or this particular, you know, get
into a ritual, which is absolutely lovelyto have the habit, but making it too
fix and what, when actually life happensand all of a sudden it's a busy season.
(08:53):
People most, most of the time,the drop things altogether
as opposed to do for less.
They almost feel like,I'll, I'll do it tomorrow.
I'll
All or nothing, right.
All or nothing, and thentomorrow never comes.
And if this season continues.
So the spiritual world, that's thebiggest mistake that I've seen,
which can be fixable, like thinkabout even a little bit is better.
(09:15):
Number one.
Even prayer doesn't haveto be just with words.
It can be just with a state of being.
It can be maybe listening to music,worship, maybe listen to the Bible as
you're driving, or you do somethingelse if you don't have time.
But there are many creative ways toengage different psychological functions.
You know, not just the logical wordby word, you know, reading versus
(09:39):
auditory, but you can also engage the.
More the, the presence of God.
Augustine in, I think he was inthe, I don't remember which century.
He said Pray all the time andonly when needed use words.
I was like, great.
So that's when the spiritual level,I think that we can all become better
(09:59):
by allowing us to be creative with.
However, we're feedingourselves spiritually.
The second thing is with emotions.
That's not very much talked about,but emotions are very important and
usually they're a window into our needs.
I mean, we all love positiveemotions, peace and joy, and happy
(10:20):
and all that, but unpleasant one,you know, anger, worry, sadness.
They don't travel alone.
Mm-hmm.
So usually there's an underlying need.
So even just pausing a few times a dayand say, Hey, what's my emotion right now?
How is my heart doing?
And then ask, well, what doesthat tell me about my needs?
What, what is it?
What's not fulfilled right now?
(10:41):
Is it the need to belong?
Is it a need to beseen, to be appreciated?
Is it a basic need?
What is it?
And on the mind level,on a third level, is we.
Sometimes think of taking care of our mindby reading and engaging with stimulus.
You know, stimuli, engaging withcontent, which is awesome, but the
(11:03):
mind also needs, that's more like aleft brain, but the mind also needs
to play and kind of move random.
That's kind of like our right side ofour brain, so forget that and it shows
up, especially at the end of the day.
Hmm.
So at the end of the day, we mightbe tired and we didn't have time
to do what we wanted, and we'relike, okay, I'm gonna be more
(11:24):
playful and let my random brain go.
But what do we do?
Movies, tv, social media,and those are addictive.
And what happens?
We get actually more information in.
The mind is gonna spin even moreas opposed to just allowing some
time for silence and allowingthe mind to kind of reset then
(11:44):
the thoughts to settle like sand.
So that's an important piece.
And the other one, in terms ofthe soul, as I think as we're.
Everything is settling.
The emotions, the thoughts and the body.
It's so much easier than tojust spend time with God.
And on a body level, I mean,most people know, right?
Sleep.
Make sure you sleep.
I don't know about your joy,but I was like, most people need
(12:05):
eight to nine hours a night.
I'm like.
I don't wanna sleep eight to nine hours.
Can I just get away with only six please?
But my body needs it, right?
Eating healthy, avoiding as much aswe can, sugar and stuff like that.
I mean, that could be anotherepisode of On Health Habits, but
exercising, even 10 minutes every day.
(12:27):
It's, it's impactful.
So, as we've talked about alittle bit, ministry a lot of
times requires a huge sacrifice.
But there can be this, there'sa fine line between sacrificial
giving, whether it's our time orour finances or however that looks.
And then unhealthy -, which is.
Where we start to headtowards burnout, right?
So how can pastors and ministryleaders, and even people in our
(12:50):
churches, how can we set healthyboundaries around our resources, but
also just around our, our scheduleswhile we're still serving effectively.
I think in terms of resourcesis kind of in your zone, right?
Mm-hmm.
make sure you include everything.
(13:11):
It's so amazing with the budget,it's so much clearer, as opposed
to our mind kind of moving around
Mm-hmm.
same, I would say withself-care is nice to do a, um.
write things down.
And what was the other thing you asked in,
Mm-hmm.
the resources,
(13:31):
Um, yeah, I mean, yourresources, your time,
the time.
Yeah.
It's a very interesting process time.
We don't think about it.
We think it's unlimited becauseyou might have heard of the idea of
kingdom time, kairos time, which onan existential level, whatever we
(13:51):
experience, it feels always in the now.
Tomorrow never happens, right?
My vacations on traveling is gonna come.
It's not gonna be tomorrow.
Like a different experience isgonna be another now moment.
So it's a paradox that we live in thiscontinuous now and at the same time,
the chronos time, the day-to-day.
(14:13):
Timing.
It's very finite.
I mean, one time, I don't knowabout you, but I calculate, okay,
God, you give me another 40 years,whatever that is, I multiply by 365.
It's shocking.
oh, there are not that many days andwe have limited time during the day.
We need to sleep.
So think of the time a space.
(14:34):
And whatever, and this is notsomething that I've created.
I mean, there are manypeople that talk about this.
Think about whatever you say yes to,you actually say no to something else.
So think of as a room, like, ifI'm gonna bring two more couches in
this already crowded room, where,where am I gonna move around?
I'm not, I have to take
Mm-hmm.
And usually if we're all of asudden realize that, we are gonna
(14:56):
think, well, what am I saying no to?
So if I'm gonna say yes to thisproject, which is so exciting and
beautiful, it's three hours, well.
What, three hours.
Who's gonna suffer from that?
Is it my family?
Is it my self-care?
Like
Hmm.
what trading I need to do?
And the last thing I wanna say abouttime, we forget about transition times.
(15:18):
Mm-hmm.
that.
I was doing that often.
I'm much better now.
It's not really three hours, let'ssay a presentation or whatever it is.
have to go there, you have toprepare, you have to come home.
Then you're tired.
You know, it's so much more.
So include also the transition time whenyou think about what am I giving, away.
I love that image of the couches.
(15:39):
It reminded me a number of yearsago, my couch was too big for my
apartment, and so I got a different one.
I found a smaller one, and thenit took me longer to get rid of
the bigger one than I thought.
Because like nobody wants to move a couch.
So finally I got somebody tohelp me deliver it so I could
offer delivery with it, and then
yes,
suddenly it disappeared.
(16:00):
And I remember walking around my livingroom with two couches in there, which
is even worse than with the big couch.
And going like, you can't, you can't packevery minute of your day or of your week.
You need time to move around.
Yes,
I can't pack every inch ofthis office with furniture.
I need to have room to walk aroundin the office and do things.
(16:21):
yes, yes.
And we need some time forour emotions or our mind.
We need time with God, youknow, spoken and unspoken.
We need time to transition.
Mm-hmm.
for the crying baby and for the teenager.
to get stuck in traffic and.
Like in traffic, or maybe yourteenager wants to talk with you and
(16:42):
unload at 10:00 PM and you know,been prepared for moments like this
and they wanna talk for two hours.
Like, what a blessing.
Right.
You wanna be able tosay, thank you, Jesus.
Not,
thank you.
can I please go to bed now?
Yes, please.
I'm not talking right now.
Yeah.
So we need to kind of put thesemoments as well in our schedule,
(17:03):
And really just like, with the budget,it causes you to create a decision.
When you do a budget, itcauses you to make a decision.
So even about things like generosity,I know people who have their tithing
or their regular giving, and thenthey also have, some people have a
spontaneous giving line in their budgetso that they have something set aside
when those opportunities come up.
(17:23):
But that also means they have a boundary.
Mm.
If something comes up that'smore than what's sitting in that
bucket, then they need to sit andtalk to their spouse about it.
And that gives them the freedomto say, we're gonna take
advantage of these opportunities.
We're gonna love people.
We're gonna serve people well and also.
We're not gonna put our ability topay the mortgage at risk, you know,
(17:45):
Exactly.
or,
Exactly.
cause stress over here, or, you know,delay getting out of debt over here, if
that's somebody, what somebody's workingon because we've made a plan for it.
Um, you know, and, and being intentional.
And the same thing is true withour, with our time, um, and time.
I've heard it said that time isthe only non-renewable resource.
(18:07):
absolutely.
you can go make more money.
yes.
And it's, you know, as, as, as I liketo say, when one of the mindset things
we run into is the scarcity mindset.
And there's no, it's not likewho's got a slice of the pie.
Like our God owns the bakery,he can make more pies.
Right?
But there's time is all you got,
(18:28):
Yes,
all get the same amount,
That's right.
so.
exercise.
If you're listening, calculatethe number of years you might,
you know, generously might think,might live and multiply by 365.
It's kind of staggering, like oh.
it, makes it so much more precious.
So much more precious.
And I also wanna bring another mindsetthat we are entrusted with our family.
(18:51):
So if there's any minister leader thatthey might have, a wife and children, we
do the sacrifice voluntarily, Children.
They didn't ask for this,it just came in their lap.
And it might be that they wantto, but they're also young, so
we can consider them part of ourministry, part of our giving.
(19:11):
The same with the spouse, so just thinkingof the as a precious gift and many
times because they love you They mightnot wanna say no, you know what I mean?
But it does take extra care to thinkfrom their perspective and really
making sure that their needs are metbecause there's nothing more contagious.
(19:32):
And, um, really inspiring and inviting
Mm-hmm.
look to God than a joyful Christian.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So,
that ministry with your house.
With your home, that'syour first ministry.
And
yes.
do you wanna be the pastor?
That retires and all thesegreat things happened, but
(19:54):
your kids aren't serving Jesus.
Yeah,
Being a pastor's kid isstill gonna be tough.
Right?
And that doesn't mean thatit's not necessarily a bad
thing for things to be tough.
But can we manage that insuch a way that it's healthy?
And that that makes them, you know, Ilove seeing, I know some families where
(20:16):
it was a ministry family and all the kidsare involved in ministry in some way.
Some of them, it's their job.
Some of it's not their job,but they're still active in it.
But it means that their experiencewas healthy enough to say,
we're gonna keep serving Jesus
Yes.
and we're gonna keep serving God's people.
Amen.
Amen.
You know,
Yeah.
this is what we wanna see.
But we've also seen, I think we've allseen the people who were ministry kids
(20:37):
who want nothing to do with the church,
Absolutely.
know, and
sometimes it's not becausethe pastors did something
mm-hmm.
things happen.
Right.
and we live in a culturethat is so confusing
Mm-hmm.
people.
I cannot even begin to imagine what isit like to have young people right now?
(20:57):
So.
Nonetheless.
I think the more we love am I alwaysreminded that yes, I might choose
my vocation, I might choose whoI'm ministering to, but my kids,
they just are a gift from God.
Mm-hmm.
they're, I it's undeniable,a gift that it's, it is, like
you said, the first ministry.
(21:18):
So it, it really, it's great to hear thatand, and listen, we all make mistakes.
If you're listening to this, youprobably, like of us are thinking, oh
my goodness, what am I doing to my kids?
Well, I was doing that.
I was, my first year ofpsychiatry, residency.
I'm like, and my kids are young andI went to one of my mentors, oh my
goodness, what am I doing to my kids?
(21:39):
It's like, listen, it'simpossible to be a perfect
Mm-hmm.
Like things are gonna happen, but justconstantly grow, constantly be, try
to become better so we don't wannaget also very stressed, like, oh my
goodness, what am I doing to my kids?
Oh
but everything is workablebecause we can always apologize.
We can always be there.
Men connections and relationships.
(22:01):
And so
yeah, and just I think to lookback and say, I'm doing my best,
yes,
not with the information that Ihave, and if I learn new things, then
I'll do my best with those things.
You can't go back.
You can't go back and beat yourself upfor things that you didn't know before.
(22:22):
Right,
go back and change past choices.
And like you said, there are gonna besituations where somebody does everything
right and their kids still wander off.
That's why we hear that train up achild in the way he should go verse.
But the reality is that's a proverb.
It's not a promise.
right.
Exactly.
It's a proverb, it's a, it's asaying about how God has designed
the world to usually work.
(22:42):
But that person, that childstill has choices and,
exactly.
Best to
Exactly.
do with it, I mean, there's a reasonwhy we have the prodigal son in the
Mm-hmm.
Right.
I mean,
Right?
even to God the father,
Mm-hmm.
just natural.
if the best parent hasus all wandering off.
Yes,
you can bet that we as humans aregonna have, our kids wander off too.
(23:06):
So,
Yeah.
so as we get ready to wrap up here, ifthere's a pastor or leader right now
that's really feeling like they're onthe edge of that burnout, or they're
struggling with that stress whilethey're trying to lead effectively,
what are some recommended first stepsthat they could take towards healing?
The simple step is tostart regenerating today.
(23:31):
Not tomorrow, not over the weekend.
We never know what might happenover the weekend, but today have
put a time aside and it could be assimple as 10 minutes, to 10 minutes.
First of all, find out what's your minimalamount of dose that you can, the time,
Mm-hmm.
dose that you cannot say no to.
(23:52):
For me, it's 10
Mm-hmm.
I cannot say no to 10 minutes of walking.
I cannot say no for 10 minutes of a nap.
And no matter how busy I am, Icannot say no to just 10 minutes
of putting a timer and just
Mm-hmm.
stay with God in silence.
So find out what that minimum amount of.
Time is for you.
It could be five or 10 minutesand do it three to four times.
(24:14):
I would say, I would argue four times aday, like in the morning when you wake up.
Many of us are very, accustomed todo things in the morning, but also in
the middle of the day, stay in flow.
Pause for a few minutes,
Mm-hmm.
of tea, a cup of coffee, or, Idon't know, just put your feet
up, or you can just put a timer,
(24:35):
Mm-hmm.
do something that feels regenerate.
Listen to a song, take a walk.
And then at the end of the work day, ifthere's such a delineation, sometimes
people work in the evening, but it couldbe anywhere like five or 6:00 PM and
then at night and get into the rhythm.
What's most important about, regenerating,and this is where I flashed out in the
(24:55):
renewal blueprint in my program, renewalin action, to have this four times a day.
Morning, midday, afternoon, and night.
It allows for this break every threeto four hours and it allows for us
to come back to ourselves and justsay, okay, what do I need right now?
And it could be, as I said, a walkcould be just reading and or doing
(25:17):
sweet nothing for five, 10 minutes.
And when we get intothat rhythm every day.
In times it's gonna becomeeasier and we don't feel like
we're neglecting ourselves.
Mm-hmm.
like to call them mini vacationsand don't wait for vacation.
Have mini vacations today.
Enjoy that.
And think it's a simple step anda simple rhythm to start, and
(25:42):
it doesn't matter the content.
I would say the rhythm is moreimportant throughout the day.
Put a timer, enjoy it, and it'llbe easier than to build on it.
I love that.
I love that.
So for listeners who wanted to learnmore about the work that you're
doing or the resources that youhave available, can you tell us a
(26:04):
bit about what you have availableand where we can find you online?
Wonderful.
Yes, team for the soul.com.
That's my website.
I, developed team for the soulco-founders with my husband.
He works full time, but does someof the grief work I'm on Facebook,
on Instagram team for the soul.com.
I'm not really, I. Super social mediaperson, but I do post there once a week.
(26:26):
I'm on LinkedIn as well, Dr. Ana Popa.
I'm trying to think what else.
And the email is easy to remember.
Connect, team for the soul.comif you wanna have the programs.
I have.
I love to, because I'm an educator atheart, I develop programs that are, that
can be done in the comfort of their home.
Mm-hmm.
So renewal in action.
(26:46):
It's a six weeks, like a bootcamp,a map to develop that renewal
map, body, mind, heart, and soul.
Four times a day, walking throughexercises, there's videos, there's
handouts, there is contemplativepractices, how to stay in silence.
Then I have a longer curriculumgrowing in Christ, which I would
love to, I've used that for, aninstitution or a nonprofit, how to.
(27:12):
Develop different skills interms of the rhythm and habits
and regeneration over two years.
So it's a small, it'sa monthly curriculum.
And then there are, I have groupsand I do, executive coaching and
life and leadership coaching.
Wonderful.
Wonderful.
And thank you so much for all that you'redoing to encourage leaders in a lot of
(27:35):
different spaces and, for taking thetime to have this conversation with us.
I knew when you and I met likethis was gonna be a fun talk
where we're kindred spirits
Yes,
would say.
Yes.
Yeah.
appreciate what you are doing.
Thank you for your ministry.
It's such an important topic.
It's so needed.
So thank you and thank you for having me.
(27:57):
Thank you for listening to today's show.
I'd love to know what you think about it.
You can leave a comment on the shownotes at pastorsandmoney.com/podcast,
or email me at joy@pastorsandmoney.com.
If you enjoyed the show, pleasesubscribe, share, and leave a review.
This helps us to get the wordout and invite more people
into these conversations.
(28:19):
If you'd like to connect, you canfind me on Instagram or Facebook.
@ PastorsandMoney.
I can't wait to talk again soon.
when we, don't take care ofsome needs, they're really
(00:02):
gonna pop up like a beach ball.
Mm-hmm.
it under water for howlong can we do that?
It is just gonna popeven more with vengeance.
And people tried many spiritual circles.
They try repression.
Oh, let me not think about the thoughtsor not think about the emotions.
He works for a while, like that beachball or like a pressure cooker, and at
some point things explode and it's just.
(00:26):
Unnecessary pain.
They can be prevented.
Welcome to the Pastors & Money Podcast.
I'm Joy Suzanne Hunt, pastor and financialcoach, bringing you conversations
about personal finance, church financeand how we disciple our churches in
(00:47):
the areas of finance and stewardship.
You can find the episode show notes,and more at pastorsandmoney.com.
And here's the show.
Our guest today is Dr. Ioana Popa,a national board certified life
(01:11):
and leadership coach, physician,psychiatrist, and spiritual care
provider with a Master's in Theology.
As co-founder of Team for the Soul andhost of the Thriving in Christ Podcast,
Dr. Ioana helps christian professionalsand ministry leaders prevent burnout and
build sustainable habits for kingdom work.
Her approach uniquely integratesscience, psychology and Christian
(01:34):
faith through programs like the renewaland action and one-on-one coaching.
When not serving others, sheenjoys spending time with
her husband and four childrengardening and contemplative prayer.
In part one, Dr. Ioana Popa and Iexplored how ministry stress and
burnout connect to financial struggles.
Now I want to continue ourconversation where Dr. Popa asked
(01:54):
about the financial mindsets.
I see.
Because her response leads us intopractical solutions for the underlying
issues, how to manage our time, energy,and emotional resources so we don't
end up making poor financial decisionsfrom a place of stress and exhaustion.
Let's get into our interview.
So I'm curious, what are yourthoughts, joy, because your podcast
(02:15):
is about this and I'm curious whatkind of mindsets you are encountering.
Yeah.
I mean that's one of the bigones that I feel like it kind of
underlies things of that if you.
If you have money that that means thatyou're selfish or if you have money,
if you have wealth, that means you'rehoarding, which is not the same thing.
No.
(02:35):
In the financial piece class,there's this great illustration
about money being a tool, and,Dave Ramsey talks about a brick.
And how you can use a brickto bash through a window.
Don't do that.
Yes, please.
Right?
You can use a brick to build a house.
Yes.
use a brick to build ahospital or a church, right?
The brick doesn't care.
The brick doesn't have a say.
(02:56):
The brick is a tool, right?
but if we have that mindset, oreven if it's just kind of coloring
things in the background, then.
We'll feel like, oh, I can't savefor retirement because that's
taking away from X, Y, Z, right?
Or, I can't do these things.
And we don't realize theimpact of those things.
(03:17):
You know, to use retirement as anexample, there are churches that are
falling apart because their pastorcan't retire, but needs to retire.
And so they're not really able todo the job well anymore because of
whatever physical or mental situationthey have going on as they age.
But because they didn't set aside and alot of the denominations and organizations
(03:40):
are doing a much better job now, Ifeel like, of educating people of, hey,
you need to be setting aside for this,you need to be preparing for this.
But if you have that mindset,that's not quite right.
It could get in the way of that.
The other thing I wasthinking about too is.
It's almost like this cyclicalthing where on the one hand, back
(04:02):
to Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
Some of those financial things arepart of that foundational, if you can't
fix the roof, you've got a problem.
Right.
Yes,
like Exactly.
You've got, you know, right.
Exactly.
You've got a problem.
You need to take care of those things.
if you're not.
Able to take care of those thingsfinancially, it's gonna be causing
(04:23):
strain on other parts of your ministry.
But also, if you think about what Isee as a financial coach all the time
is somebody has got some emotionalneed that they are soothing with
money instead of taking care of it.
Oh, absolutely.
They have a spending problem or they havea drug problem, or they have a serial
(04:48):
relationship problem or whatever itis, because they're not taking care of
some of those emotional needs and maybethey don't have close friendships, and
so in order to turn into eating, we'refilling that need some other way and.
A lot of times, you know, thecoaching world, we'll talk about
like your wallet and your calendaris kind of like a mirror, right?
(05:10):
You can see your priorities,you can see where your heart is.
Well, if your heart's in trouble,it's gonna show up in your finances.
Right, right.
Whether, whether that's a shows up inoverspending or whether that shows up in,
something that you're spending on that'sjust not in line with your priorities.
It's going to manifest there.
And so it kind of creates this cycleof maybe you had the finances, but
(05:34):
they're not, you know, maybe you havethe income, but it's not healthy because
it's being used to soothe something else.
Exactly, and I think you make a greatpoint that our relationship with money and
our relationship with time is essential.
That tells us about the values.
And I think it's so important thatyou are doing this, process of
(05:55):
educating people around finances.
Because if we have a poor relationshipwith money, and then let's say someone is
having a smaller, big addiction or using,siphoning the money in other ways, you
know, they might feel even worse and more.
They feel shame and theymight wanna hide this.
I mean, that can bringrelationship problems.
(06:16):
I mean, it can bring so many
Mm-hmm.
everything is gonna, snowball.
So it is important when we realize thatit is something really precious that,
Mm-hmm.
it's a precious tool.
And when we give it the rightperspective and we're not afraid of
not having it or having too much or.
We're just respectful with it.
(06:38):
It just becomes so much more, helpfulin a building for the kingdom.
So,
Yeah, I know.
The Bible says, where your treasureis there, your heart will be,
yeah.
means that if we look at whereour treasure is, it can tell us
about the condition of our heart.
That's right
Um
care of the needs,especially emotional needs
(07:00):
mm-hmm.
needs, and the body
Mm-hmm.
are so important, I cannot stress.
And I love, I love that you broughtthat in the, when we, don't take
care of some needs, they're reallygonna pop up like a beach ball.
Mm-hmm.
it under water for howlong can we do that?
It is just gonna popeven more with vengeance.
And people tried many spiritual circles.
(07:22):
They try repression.
Oh, let me not think about the thoughtsor not think about the emotions.
He works for a while, like that beachball or like a pressure cooker, and at
some point things explode and it's just.
Unnecessary pain.
They can be prevented.
If we bring the foundationand we learn how to regenerate
(07:42):
body, mind, heart, and soul.
We learn how to stay alignedwith our vision, our purpose.
We have these beautiful relationshipwith money in a healthy way,
with time with our family.
So whatever we do, we can keepdoing for the glory of God.
Yeah.
You've mentioned that body,mind, heart, and soul.
So how does that, holistic approachapply specifically to pastors?
(08:07):
What are some things thatpastors might need to look into?
I think the biggest mistake that I'veseen happening with pastors, I don't
know if I told you I was in a. workedin a seminar as a counselor and also
did, you know, counseling with pastors.
And, um, the biggest mistakes I've seenis that yes, we might accept the spiritual
(08:30):
growth and taking care spiritually and,and that sometimes can get into rigid.
Places like, I have to pray this specificorder or this particular, you know, get
into a ritual, which is absolutely lovelyto have the habit, but making it too
fix and what, when actually life happensand all of a sudden it's a busy season.
(08:53):
People most, most of the time,the drop things altogether
as opposed to do for less.
They almost feel like,I'll, I'll do it tomorrow.
I'll
All or nothing, right.
All or nothing, and thentomorrow never comes.
And if this season continues.
So the spiritual world, that's thebiggest mistake that I've seen,
which can be fixable, like thinkabout even a little bit is better.
(09:15):
Number one.
Even prayer doesn't haveto be just with words.
It can be just with a state of being.
It can be maybe listening to music,worship, maybe listen to the Bible as
you're driving, or you do somethingelse if you don't have time.
But there are many creative ways toengage different psychological functions.
You know, not just the logical wordby word, you know, reading versus
(09:39):
auditory, but you can also engage the.
More the, the presence of God.
Augustine in, I think he was inthe, I don't remember which century.
He said Pray all the time andonly when needed use words.
I was like, great.
So that's when the spiritual level,I think that we can all become better
(09:59):
by allowing us to be creative with.
However, we're feedingourselves spiritually.
The second thing is with emotions.
That's not very much talked about,but emotions are very important and
usually they're a window into our needs.
I mean, we all love positiveemotions, peace and joy, and happy
(10:20):
and all that, but unpleasant one,you know, anger, worry, sadness.
They don't travel alone.
Mm-hmm.
So usually there's an underlying need.
So even just pausing a few times a dayand say, Hey, what's my emotion right now?
How is my heart doing?
And then ask, well, what doesthat tell me about my needs?
What, what is it?
What's not fulfilled right now?
(10:41):
Is it the need to belong?
Is it a need to beseen, to be appreciated?
Is it a basic need?
What is it?
And on the mind level,on a third level, is we.
Sometimes think of taking care of our mindby reading and engaging with stimulus.
You know, stimuli, engaging withcontent, which is awesome, but the
(11:03):
mind also needs, that's more like aleft brain, but the mind also needs
to play and kind of move random.
That's kind of like our right side ofour brain, so forget that and it shows
up, especially at the end of the day.
Hmm.
So at the end of the day, we mightbe tired and we didn't have time
to do what we wanted, and we'relike, okay, I'm gonna be more
(11:24):
playful and let my random brain go.
But what do we do?
Movies, tv, social media,and those are addictive.
And what happens?
We get actually more information in.
The mind is gonna spin even moreas opposed to just allowing some
time for silence and allowingthe mind to kind of reset then
(11:44):
the thoughts to settle like sand.
So that's an important piece.
And the other one, in terms ofthe soul, as I think as we're.
Everything is settling.
The emotions, the thoughts and the body.
It's so much easier than tojust spend time with God.
And on a body level, I mean,most people know, right?
Sleep.
Make sure you sleep.
I don't know about your joy,but I was like, most people need
(12:05):
eight to nine hours a night.
I'm like.
I don't wanna sleep eight to nine hours.
Can I just get away with only six please?
But my body needs it, right?
Eating healthy, avoiding as much aswe can, sugar and stuff like that.
I mean, that could be anotherepisode of On Health Habits, but
exercising, even 10 minutes every day.
(12:27):
It's, it's impactful.
So, as we've talked about alittle bit, ministry a lot of
times requires a huge sacrifice.
But there can be this, there'sa fine line between sacrificial
giving, whether it's our time orour finances or however that looks.
And then unhealthy -, which is.
Where we start to headtowards burnout, right?
So how can pastors and ministryleaders, and even people in our
(12:50):
churches, how can we set healthyboundaries around our resources, but
also just around our, our scheduleswhile we're still serving effectively.
I think in terms of resourcesis kind of in your zone, right?
Mm-hmm.
make sure you include everything.
(13:11):
It's so amazing with the budget,it's so much clearer, as opposed
to our mind kind of moving around
Mm-hmm.
same, I would say withself-care is nice to do a, um.
write things down.
And what was the other thing you asked in,
Mm-hmm.
the resources,
(13:31):
Um, yeah, I mean, yourresources, your time,
the time.
Yeah.
It's a very interesting process time.
We don't think about it.
We think it's unlimited becauseyou might have heard of the idea of
kingdom time, kairos time, which onan existential level, whatever we
(13:51):
experience, it feels always in the now.
Tomorrow never happens, right?
My vacations on traveling is gonna come.
It's not gonna be tomorrow.
Like a different experience isgonna be another now moment.
So it's a paradox that we live in thiscontinuous now and at the same time,
the chronos time, the day-to-day.
(14:13):
Timing.
It's very finite.
I mean, one time, I don't knowabout you, but I calculate, okay,
God, you give me another 40 years,whatever that is, I multiply by 365.
It's shocking.
oh, there are not that many days andwe have limited time during the day.
We need to sleep.
So think of the time a space.
(14:34):
And whatever, and this is notsomething that I've created.
I mean, there are manypeople that talk about this.
Think about whatever you say yes to,you actually say no to something else.
So think of as a room, like, ifI'm gonna bring two more couches in
this already crowded room, where,where am I gonna move around?
I'm not, I have to take
Mm-hmm.
And usually if we're all of asudden realize that, we are gonna
(14:56):
think, well, what am I saying no to?
So if I'm gonna say yes to thisproject, which is so exciting and
beautiful, it's three hours, well.
What, three hours.
Who's gonna suffer from that?
Is it my family?
Is it my self-care?
Like
Hmm.
what trading I need to do?
And the last thing I wanna say abouttime, we forget about transition times.
(15:18):
Mm-hmm.
that.
I was doing that often.
I'm much better now.
It's not really three hours, let'ssay a presentation or whatever it is.
have to go there, you have toprepare, you have to come home.
Then you're tired.
You know, it's so much more.
So include also the transition time whenyou think about what am I giving, away.
I love that image of the couches.
(15:39):
It reminded me a number of yearsago, my couch was too big for my
apartment, and so I got a different one.
I found a smaller one, and thenit took me longer to get rid of
the bigger one than I thought.
Because like nobody wants to move a couch.
So finally I got somebody tohelp me deliver it so I could
offer delivery with it, and then
yes,
suddenly it disappeared.
(16:00):
And I remember walking around my livingroom with two couches in there, which
is even worse than with the big couch.
And going like, you can't, you can't packevery minute of your day or of your week.
You need time to move around.
Yes,
I can't pack every inch ofthis office with furniture.
I need to have room to walk aroundin the office and do things.
(16:21):
yes, yes.
And we need some time forour emotions or our mind.
We need time with God, youknow, spoken and unspoken.
We need time to transition.
Mm-hmm.
for the crying baby and for the teenager.
to get stuck in traffic and.
Like in traffic, or maybe yourteenager wants to talk with you and
(16:42):
unload at 10:00 PM and you know,been prepared for moments like this
and they wanna talk for two hours.
Like, what a blessing.
Right.
You wanna be able tosay, thank you, Jesus.
Not,
thank you.
can I please go to bed now?
Yes, please.
I'm not talking right now.
Yeah.
So we need to kind of put thesemoments as well in our schedule,
(17:03):
And really just like, with the budget,it causes you to create a decision.
When you do a budget, itcauses you to make a decision.
So even about things like generosity,I know people who have their tithing
or their regular giving, and thenthey also have, some people have a
spontaneous giving line in their budgetso that they have something set aside
when those opportunities come up.
(17:23):
But that also means they have a boundary.
Mm.
If something comes up that'smore than what's sitting in that
bucket, then they need to sit andtalk to their spouse about it.
And that gives them the freedomto say, we're gonna take
advantage of these opportunities.
We're gonna love people.
We're gonna serve people well and also.
We're not gonna put our ability topay the mortgage at risk, you know,
(17:45):
Exactly.
or,
Exactly.
cause stress over here, or, you know,delay getting out of debt over here, if
that's somebody, what somebody's workingon because we've made a plan for it.
Um, you know, and, and being intentional.
And the same thing is true withour, with our time, um, and time.
I've heard it said that time isthe only non-renewable resource.
(18:07):
absolutely.
you can go make more money.
yes.
And it's, you know, as, as, as I liketo say, when one of the mindset things
we run into is the scarcity mindset.
And there's no, it's not likewho's got a slice of the pie.
Like our God owns the bakery,he can make more pies.
Right?
But there's time is all you got,
(18:28):
Yes,
all get the same amount,
That's right.
so.
exercise.
If you're listening, calculatethe number of years you might,
you know, generously might think,might live and multiply by 365.
It's kind of staggering, like oh.
it, makes it so much more precious.
So much more precious.
And I also wanna bring another mindsetthat we are entrusted with our family.
(18:51):
So if there's any minister leader thatthey might have, a wife and children, we
do the sacrifice voluntarily, Children.
They didn't ask for this,it just came in their lap.
And it might be that they wantto, but they're also young, so
we can consider them part of ourministry, part of our giving.
(19:11):
The same with the spouse, so just thinkingof the as a precious gift and many
times because they love you They mightnot wanna say no, you know what I mean?
But it does take extra care to thinkfrom their perspective and really
making sure that their needs are metbecause there's nothing more contagious.
(19:32):
And, um, really inspiring and inviting
Mm-hmm.
look to God than a joyful Christian.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So,
that ministry with your house.
With your home, that'syour first ministry.
And
yes.
do you wanna be the pastor?
That retires and all thesegreat things happened, but
(19:54):
your kids aren't serving Jesus.
Yeah,
Being a pastor's kid isstill gonna be tough.
Right?
And that doesn't mean thatit's not necessarily a bad
thing for things to be tough.
But can we manage that insuch a way that it's healthy?
And that that makes them, you know, Ilove seeing, I know some families where
(20:16):
it was a ministry family and all the kidsare involved in ministry in some way.
Some of them, it's their job.
Some of it's not their job,but they're still active in it.
But it means that their experiencewas healthy enough to say,
we're gonna keep serving Jesus
Yes.
and we're gonna keep serving God's people.
Amen.
Amen.
You know,
Yeah.
this is what we wanna see.
But we've also seen, I think we've allseen the people who were ministry kids
(20:37):
who want nothing to do with the church,
Absolutely.
know, and
sometimes it's not becausethe pastors did something
mm-hmm.
things happen.
Right.
and we live in a culturethat is so confusing
Mm-hmm.
people.
I cannot even begin to imagine what isit like to have young people right now?
(20:57):
So.
Nonetheless.
I think the more we love am I alwaysreminded that yes, I might choose
my vocation, I might choose whoI'm ministering to, but my kids,
they just are a gift from God.
Mm-hmm.
they're, I it's undeniable,a gift that it's, it is, like
you said, the first ministry.
(21:18):
So it, it really, it's great to hear thatand, and listen, we all make mistakes.
If you're listening to this, youprobably, like of us are thinking, oh
my goodness, what am I doing to my kids?
Well, I was doing that.
I was, my first year ofpsychiatry, residency.
I'm like, and my kids are young andI went to one of my mentors, oh my
goodness, what am I doing to my kids?
(21:39):
It's like, listen, it'simpossible to be a perfect
Mm-hmm.
Like things are gonna happen, but justconstantly grow, constantly be, try
to become better so we don't wannaget also very stressed, like, oh my
goodness, what am I doing to my kids?
Oh
but everything is workablebecause we can always apologize.
We can always be there.
Men connections and relationships.
(22:01):
And so
yeah, and just I think to lookback and say, I'm doing my best,
yes,
not with the information that Ihave, and if I learn new things, then
I'll do my best with those things.
You can't go back.
You can't go back and beat yourself upfor things that you didn't know before.
(22:22):
Right,
go back and change past choices.
And like you said, there are gonna besituations where somebody does everything
right and their kids still wander off.
That's why we hear that train up achild in the way he should go verse.
But the reality is that's a proverb.
It's not a promise.
right.
Exactly.
It's a proverb, it's a, it's asaying about how God has designed
the world to usually work.
(22:42):
But that person, that childstill has choices and,
exactly.
Best to
Exactly.
do with it, I mean, there's a reasonwhy we have the prodigal son in the
Mm-hmm.
Right.
I mean,
Right?
even to God the father,
Mm-hmm.
just natural.
if the best parent hasus all wandering off.
Yes,
you can bet that we as humans aregonna have, our kids wander off too.
(23:06):
So,
Yeah.
so as we get ready to wrap up here, ifthere's a pastor or leader right now
that's really feeling like they're onthe edge of that burnout, or they're
struggling with that stress whilethey're trying to lead effectively,
what are some recommended first stepsthat they could take towards healing?
The simple step is tostart regenerating today.
(23:31):
Not tomorrow, not over the weekend.
We never know what might happenover the weekend, but today have
put a time aside and it could be assimple as 10 minutes, to 10 minutes.
First of all, find out what's your minimalamount of dose that you can, the time,
Mm-hmm.
dose that you cannot say no to.
(23:52):
For me, it's 10
Mm-hmm.
I cannot say no to 10 minutes of walking.
I cannot say no for 10 minutes of a nap.
And no matter how busy I am, Icannot say no to just 10 minutes
of putting a timer and just
Mm-hmm.
stay with God in silence.
So find out what that minimum amount of.
Time is for you.
It could be five or 10 minutesand do it three to four times.
(24:14):
I would say, I would argue four times aday, like in the morning when you wake up.
Many of us are very, accustomed todo things in the morning, but also in
the middle of the day, stay in flow.
Pause for a few minutes,
Mm-hmm.
of tea, a cup of coffee, or, Idon't know, just put your feet
up, or you can just put a timer,
(24:35):
Mm-hmm.
do something that feels regenerate.
Listen to a song, take a walk.
And then at the end of the work day, ifthere's such a delineation, sometimes
people work in the evening, but it couldbe anywhere like five or 6:00 PM and
then at night and get into the rhythm.
What's most important about, regenerating,and this is where I flashed out in the
(24:55):
renewal blueprint in my program, renewalin action, to have this four times a day.
Morning, midday, afternoon, and night.
It allows for this break every threeto four hours and it allows for us
to come back to ourselves and justsay, okay, what do I need right now?
And it could be, as I said, a walkcould be just reading and or doing
(25:17):
sweet nothing for five, 10 minutes.
And when we get intothat rhythm every day.
In times it's gonna becomeeasier and we don't feel like
we're neglecting ourselves.
Mm-hmm.
like to call them mini vacationsand don't wait for vacation.
Have mini vacations today.
Enjoy that.
And think it's a simple step anda simple rhythm to start, and
(25:42):
it doesn't matter the content.
I would say the rhythm is moreimportant throughout the day.
Put a timer, enjoy it, and it'llbe easier than to build on it.
I love that.
I love that.
So for listeners who wanted to learnmore about the work that you're
doing or the resources that youhave available, can you tell us a
(26:04):
bit about what you have availableand where we can find you online?
Wonderful.
Yes, team for the soul.com.
That's my website.
I, developed team for the soulco-founders with my husband.
He works full time, but does someof the grief work I'm on Facebook,
on Instagram team for the soul.com.
I'm not really, I. Super social mediaperson, but I do post there once a week.
(26:26):
I'm on LinkedIn as well, Dr. Ana Popa.
I'm trying to think what else.
And the email is easy to remember.
Connect, team for the soul.comif you wanna have the programs.
I have.
I love to, because I'm an educator atheart, I develop programs that are, that
can be done in the comfort of their home.
Mm-hmm.
So renewal in action.
(26:46):
It's a six weeks, like a bootcamp,a map to develop that renewal
map, body, mind, heart, and soul.
Four times a day, walking throughexercises, there's videos, there's
handouts, there is contemplativepractices, how to stay in silence.
Then I have a longer curriculumgrowing in Christ, which I would
love to, I've used that for, aninstitution or a nonprofit, how to.
(27:12):
Develop different skills interms of the rhythm and habits
and regeneration over two years.
So it's a small, it'sa monthly curriculum.
And then there are, I have groupsand I do, executive coaching and
life and leadership coaching.
Wonderful.
Wonderful.
And thank you so much for all that you'redoing to encourage leaders in a lot of
(27:35):
different spaces and, for taking thetime to have this conversation with us.
I knew when you and I met likethis was gonna be a fun talk
where we're kindred spirits
Yes,
would say.
Yes.
Yeah.
appreciate what you are doing.
Thank you for your ministry.
It's such an important topic.
It's so needed.
So thank you and thank you for having me.
(27:57):
Thank you for listening to today's show.
I'd love to know what you think about it.
You can leave a comment on the shownotes at pastorsandmoney.com/podcast,
or email me at joy@pastorsandmoney.com.
If you enjoyed the show, pleasesubscribe, share, and leave a review.
This helps us to get the wordout and invite more people
into these conversations.
(28:19):
If you'd like to connect, you canfind me on Instagram or Facebook.
@ PastorsandMoney.
I can't wait to talk again soon.
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