June 27, 2025 • 56 mins
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Speaker 1 (00:18):
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez.
It is Monday, the 23rd of June, and we are
here live until 4 o'clock and we'd love to chat
with you.
At 888-564-6173. Give us a call. We would love to chat,
and you can also send in your questions online if
you'd like, but the best way to get an answer
(00:39):
today is to call us at 888-564-6173. And answering your
questions today, we've got the lead pastor of Calvary.
Costa Mesa in Southern California. That would be Char Broderson.
How are you doing, Char? I'm doing all right. How
are you, Brian? Doing well. Great to have you here
in the studio. And Mike Chaddick is joining us too.
(01:00):
He's on Zoom joining us online. Mike is the pastor
of Image Church in San Juan Capistrano, California. How are you, Mike?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I'm doing wonderful. Good to be here, guys.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Yeah, totally good to have you here. Not as good
as having you here live in the studio, but hey,
Speaker 2 (01:16):
well it's, it's a step down, but I, I appreciate
the opportunity. We sure
Speaker 1 (01:20):
do appreciate you being there.
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(01:43):
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So lots of stuff happened over the weekend and uh
we've got some questions in that regard. Here's one from
(02:06):
Sherry who sent this on Facebook. Hello, are we biblically
required to support Israel? Where does it say that in
the Bible? I saw a clip that said, Old Testament
Israelis are not the same as now, so we don't
always have to protect them. I've always believed we did.
This made me question, do I know what I'm talking about?
(02:28):
I don't even know how to look that up in
the Bible to understand that. Uh, Char, we'll start with you.
What would you say to Sherry? Yeah, I mean, I
think Sherry is uh bringing up a topic that's really important.
I think, uh, many times we hear these statements.
And I think we just pull them kind of right
out of their biblical context and out of the biblical story,
(02:50):
and we treat them, you know, as like kind of these.
Uh, dogmatic essentials of what it means to be a Christian,
you know, without actually knowing where they fit in the story,
what they mean, who they were originally spoken to. And so,
you know, Sherry's question, I think, goes all the way
back to this promise that God gives to Abraham.
(03:11):
And we need to understand that Abraham, you know, he's
the father of the nation of Israel, but Abraham actually
comes later in the story of the Bible, right? The
story of the Bible begins with Adam and Eve, who
are the mother and father of all humanity, and the
story starts about how God created them and his image
created them to be his partners and to work with him.
To spread his kingdom to the ends of the earth.
(03:33):
They rebel and reject that offer, they leave God's presence
in the garden, this partnership kind of goes off the rails, and,
you know, kind of the world is in this downward
spiral until we come.
Basically, to Genesis chapter 12, where God is redeeming the story,
and he chooses Abraham as his vessel, and his family
(03:55):
as his vessel through which God is going to bring
this human project back on its rails. And so,
In the context, right? God is saying, like, I'm gonna
be with you, Abraham, I'm gonna bring this thing to
its finish and it's fulfillment, and whoever comes against you,
and my plans for you is not gonna prosper, but
those who do work with you and help you along,
(04:19):
I'm going to bless them. So that's the context in
which this comes into, and I think unfortunately, we don't
follow the story out.
That Israel goes through the family of Abraham, goes through
all of these ups and downs, where God is correcting
them and bringing them back into his ways, but all
of this culminates in the story of Jesus, that Jesus
(04:42):
Christ is actually the fulfillment of Israel's story.
That he is the true king over Israel, and really
all of the promises that God made to Abraham, to
the nation of Israel, to David the king, even the
promise of the new covenant that we find later in
Jeremiah and Ezekiel, and the visions that we find in Isaiah,
(05:04):
all of these are fulfilled in Jesus.
And so now Jesus defines for us who we are
to bless, who we are to curse, who we are
to support, who we are to resist. And I think
we really need to look at the teachings of Jesus
specifically in the sermon on the Mount. Now, nowhere in
(05:25):
scripture does it say that we are to give our
full support to any human government, right? That like,
You know, when we, when we look at the world,
we don't just go, well, you know, pick a random country, like,
I just support that government and whatever they do, we
need to use our minds, and we need to use
the scripture to discern what is right and wrong, and
(05:47):
to discern what things, you know, that government does honors God,
doesn't honor God, and specifically we do this through looking
at the teachings of Jesus. I could go on and
talk more about this, but
You know, I don't think the question is, you know,
do we support Israel now, um,
(06:09):
I, I just think we're asking the wrong question. I
think the question that we should be asking is, what
does it mean to be a follower of Jesus? And who,
what government on earth do I actually give my allegiance to?
And I think the answer from the Bible is, um,
Jesus wants me to be his disciple, and he wants
(06:29):
me to give his allegiance to him and him alone,
and any nation state that I belong to actually comes
secondary to my allegiance to Jesus and to his kingdom.
And if I want to give my, you know, money
or my verbal, or, you know, social media support to
another nation on earth, again, I need to scrutinize that
(06:50):
according to
Uh, the righteousness and justice that is clearly laid out
in scripture, and not just because of some verse that
I've ripped from its context. Now, let me just say this, uh,
saying this, I'm not antagonistic towards Israelis, I'm not antagonistic
towards Palestinians. The the
(07:12):
Understanding of the gospel is that God wants all people
to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
And so he is the God of the nation of Israel.
As well as the God of the nations, and the
New Testament makes this abundantly clear. God is for people,
and he wants them to be part of his kingdom.
And I think the problem is, is
(07:34):
Sometimes if I'm supporting one nation state, it automatically means
I'm anti this nation. And I think we as Christians,
as followers of Jesus, we have to be aware of,
you know, political positioning like that, because following Jesus actually
forbids me from being antibody. I am
people that they would come to know the knowledge of
(07:54):
the truth about who Jesus is. I've said enough. Go
pitch to Mike. Well, real quick, Mike, before you answer
what we have another question on the same topic. I
probably should have just read them back to back, but
let me read this question, which brings up some of
the same points as the other one, but um,
So, uh, here's what it is. Uh, I really need
your help with a spiritual question that has political subtext,
(08:15):
and I want to make sure I'm understanding scripture properly
and in context. I have a deep love and respect
for the Jews. My whole life I've heard, bless Israel
and you will.
blessed, cursed Israel, and you will be cursed. Genesis 12:3.
Many Christians interpret this as a command to support the
modern state of Israel without criticism. Others say it refers
to God's covenant with Abraham's descendants and should not be
(08:37):
equated with a political nation. So I reread the scripture
and saw it doesn't in the NIV refer to Israel,
but to Abraham's descendants that blew my mind. I feel
like if I understand the context and meaning of the
scripture in Genesis, I can be on the right side of.
The politics. In Genesis 12:3, uh, is Genesis 12:3 about
(08:59):
supporting a political state without question or comment about war
or potentially genocide? Is it about honoring God's covenant people
in a different way? How should I faithfully live out
this verse today?
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Well, I'm assuming we're gonna go to other questions eventually
on this episode. This is a big can of worms,
those are fantastic questions. There's many layers to them. They,
I mean, just exegetical alone, meaning if you look at
various Bible passages, both in the Old Testament and exploring
the context, looking at the language, coming to the New Testament,
(09:34):
what seems to be the same, what's changed, what's fulfilled,
what's transformed, uh, what, what's perpetual.
Those are all, I, I think, uh, I mean, you
have to have those conversations. I'm in the middle of
having them with other people are delved into some of
that uh exegetical stuff, um.
I think, here, I, I can't get into all of
(09:54):
it right now. There's no way I can possibly do that.
Here's one thing I will say, even let's go back
to Genesis 12 and, and talking about, I'll bless those
who bless you and curse those who curse you. And
I'll leave aside the question of whether it applies to
the modern secular state of Israel today or whether it doesn't.
Let's go back to the beginning and let me point
(10:16):
out what it clearly never meant.
For anyone ever, and that was unqualified support. It never
meant that. If you believe that you are taking a
stand against God.
Because God took a stand against Israel. God brought judgment
(10:37):
on Israel. God sent foreign nations to punish Israel. Israel,
time and time and time again, was in gross licentious sin,
not only doing many of the same sins as the Canaanites,
but it was even worse because they were doing so
with the full knowledge of the true and living God. So,
(10:57):
let's keep in mind, however, you're going to interpret.
The Abrahamic covenant in the Old Testament context, but not
even getting the New Testament, which of course you must
do eventually, and it, it can change things, but let's
just even take it there. I think it never ever
ever meant support like if support means affirm.
(11:18):
And validate every action and every word. It never meant that.
That's ridiculous. God would be wrong, and I'm not gonna
stand against God. God is clearly in the right, every
time he speaks, every time he acts, that means every
harsh word, every prophet, I was just going through Amos
and my own personal preaching, and he's preaching the woes,
(11:40):
and you have these prophets, and they're lamenting against Israel's sin.
I mean, ironically, the, the unfaithful Jews in Israel at
that time, they were angry and wanting to persecute and
kill the prophets because they were criticizing what they were doing.
They were criticizing the national agenda. As a matter of fact,
like Jeremiah was thrown into a pit. Why? Because he
(12:01):
was seen as a political traitor.
Because he said capitulate to the enemy, because the message
to Jeremiah was, hey, I'm punishing you, so don't fight this.
I'm punishing you. This is gonna happen. So Jeremiah, go
tell them, Jeremiah's faithfully tells them, and they're like, you're
standing against us, you're a traitor, how could you not
support us in everything we say or do, you're a Jew,
well this is Israel, you'll do what we say, or
(12:22):
you'll go down to the pit. So, it never meant that.
Let's just be very, very clear, and I think what
I want to speak to here is not so much
the exegetical side, but
When it was reported the other night that, you know,
the United States dropped bombs on Iran and they, and they,
you know, directly in the conflict between Iran and Israel,
and a lot of Christians, including pastors, started posting on
(12:44):
social media, I support Israel, again, that's, that's sort of
my camp. You'll probably see 90% of those, maybe 10%,
like remember Iran, remember about probably less than 10%.
If you grow up in another camp, it might be
the opposite. Remember Palestine, remember Iran, we hate Israel, but
that's not my world. I don't think that was Char's world, uh,
either growing up. So I think we need to just
(13:05):
be careful, all of us, even if you don't agree
on our exegesis.
I think sometimes when we say I stand with I support,
I think it might help instead of just a little
meme or graphic you're posting. Explain what exactly that means,
because while you and your camp might understand what that means,
there is a
Who unbelieving world, there are people from various backgrounds, various kinds,
(13:30):
and they're they're reading your words, they're seeing your little post,
and they're coming away with something. I, I hope it's
not what you're saying, which is Christians must stand with
Israel when they're wrong.
So, for example, Israel today, the modern Jewish state of Israel,
which is a secular state, so in that sense, it
it certainly is a little bit different than the Old Testament,
(13:50):
but 99% plus of ethnic Jews in Israel reject Jesus
Christ as their Lord and Savior. So, that's apostasy by
biblical standards. So, I certainly hope when we're saying I
stand with Israel, we're not saying I stand with apostasy.
I hope we're not saying that.
Israel is the gay capital of the Middle East. Tel
(14:11):
Aviv has the largest LGBTQ pride festival in the Middle East. It's,
it's called the gay Mecca. I hope we're not saying
as evangelical by believing quote unquote, conservative Christians, that that's good.
We support sexual perversity. I hope we're not saying that. So,
what I wanna leave everyone with here is just be
(14:32):
very careful. We have such polarization.
In our culture today, and, and I think too often we're,
we're preaching to the choir, and we're not being careful
with our words, especially our slogans and our symbols and
things like that, and we need to very carefully unpack,
because I think it's possible to have a different take
on exeg Jesus, right? There's gonna be a lot of
(14:53):
Christians who believe, no, no, no, those, those promises still apply.
We have to bless the ethnic Israel today. OK, OK.
But even if that's your exegetical position, please go back
and remember from the Old Testament.
That never meant affirming Israel in its wickedness, never, not
a single time. So I think there's room for, in
(15:13):
some sense, like validation, appreciation, a debt of gratitude is
the language I like to earn. I, I owe the
Jewish people a debt of gratitude, but a debt of
gratitude never means I'm obligated to stand with someone when
they're wrong. That's not how I repay a debt of gratitude,
so I just hope we're very careful.
And kind of the, the way we're approaching this and
(15:35):
the way we're projecting our beliefs to the world, because
I think if it doesn't reflect a genuine exegetical theological misunderstanding,
we are causing a lot of communication and social problems
in the world by not being careful.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Do you think the idea that Christians, if we bless Israel,
if we pray for the peace of Jerusalem, that the
idea is, well, if we pray for them, they'll turn
around and the people in Tel Aviv who are who
aren't Christians will maybe they'll become Christians because they'll see
that we love them.
(16:11):
I think this is one of those things I mentioned
this earlier, I think.
There are certain passages in scripture that were spoken.
You know, they are for that, well, actually all the
passages in scripture, right, are for a specific community at
that moment in a specific context, and we need to
understand this, you know, it has been wisely said, scripture
(16:32):
is not written for us, or excuse me, it's not
written to us, but it is written for us. And
I think we need to differentiate on things like this.
And sometimes, you know, I mentioned we need to know
where we're at in the story. Sometimes we'll just drop ourselves.
You know, in this thing, right? So, when we're reading
passages like Genesis 12, right, we're understanding that this is
(16:53):
God's plan of redemption, not just for Israel, for the
whole world, for all of humanity, right? And it's not just,
you know, like Mike saying, like this, you know, blank
check that Israel can just do whatever it wants and
never be criticized because God's on their side, right?
But saying, God will be faithful to them, to the
end to accomplish his purpose. That's what he's telling Abraham,
(17:16):
you know, uh, another passage puts it this way, no
weapon formed against you shall prosper, right? So God's saying like,
nothing's gonna take you out and thwart my promises to
redeem the world. That's what God is saying. Take the
whole message together, right? Don't just extract one verse and
just think that this is some kind of like exchange
that you can do with God.
I think also pray for the peace of Jerusalem. You know, again,
(17:39):
this is a Psalm, right? That is talking about, you know,
the turmoil that's going on in among the nations in Israel,
and what they want is peace. And so there's this
encouragement to the people of God that we would pray
for God's peace, but that isn't just something that like,
you know, God zaps like peace, cause we prayed for it.
(17:59):
It's actually something that the people of God had to
choose to walk in God's righteousness and justice and mercy
in order to experience his peace. So, you know, when
we're talking about these things, sometimes we treat biblical promises
like magical incantations, like a rain god kind of a thing,
(18:19):
you know, well, if I, God said, if I just
do this recipe, then he does this, you know.
And that's just not the way that biblical promises work,
and that's why I referenced in the beginning, all of
this actually has to do with Jesus. He is the
one that brings all of this to pass, and it
finds fulfillment in him. And now, some people are gonna
get really ticked off that I'm gonna say this.
(18:42):
But in the New Testament, we never find a command.
That we have to bless the Jews, and we will
be blessed. If we curse them, we will be cursed.
We never find an exhortation to pray for the peace
of Jerusalem. And I have actually suggested that Jesus gives
us a new prayer to pray, in place of the
(19:04):
pray for the pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Now,
remember that Jerusalem was the center of Israel's identity politically, religiously,
it's the seat of God.
Reigning over the nations there at the temple, but we
understand that that actually has come to fulfillment in and
through the person of Jesus Christ, right? He is the
living presence of God, housing that temple present, power, holiness,
(19:27):
it's all found in him. And so, Jesus taught us
to pray.
Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as
it is in heaven. He's not focusing on the blessing
of Jerusalem, he's focusing on actually God's kingdom going to
the ends of the earth, it not being concentrated anymore
to a locale, but now, through Christ's body, the church,
(19:51):
and by his spirit, it's spreading to the ends of
the earth. And so, again, I just think that this
is one of those areas where we get stuck in
a part of the story.
And we think, oh, this is what God wants. God
wants all the world to be focused on this part
of land and to pray for that peace, that wasn't
God's plan from the beginning. Remember, read this even just
in the Gospels in the Book of Acts, the kingdom
(20:15):
message is gonna spread through Jesus' disciples, the good news.
About the reign of God from Jerusalem to Judea, to Samaria,
to the ends of the earth. Jerusalem is no longer
the center point, it's the sending point to go to
all the other places, so that the whole world can
experience the peaceful reign of God. And so I think
(20:37):
we're just getting the story, we're going backwards into the story.
You know, it's like
You know, people will get this analogy sometimes, right? When
we're questioning the law and we're wondering like what is
its validity today?
And, you know, or, well, if it's not valid today,
then it didn't ever matter. And many theologians have pointed
out that the law works as a signpost, right? But
(21:00):
once you arrive at the destination that the signs were
pointing to, you don't go back to the signs. It
doesn't make any sense. You've arrived at the destination, so
the signs actually did what they were intended to do.
And now that you have arrived, enjoy, live in it,
you know, and so that's actually what we're saying about
Jesus. He has fulfilled all that the promises of Abraham,
(21:23):
the law, the covenant given to David and to Jeremiah,
all of that was pointing to him. And we've arrived
at him. Why are we going back to these Old
Testament promises and trying to, you know, um,
Take them to the bank when they've already been cashed in,
so to speak, with Jesus. Keep your eyes on Jesus.
(21:44):
Follow him. He is the way, he is the truth,
He is the life. Let him define reality for you.
Let him define blessing for you. Let him show you
who we are to love, who we are to bless,
who we are to serve, and stop going back to
these other covenants. They are pointing forward. I'm done.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Yeah, no, I just, again, I feel like every time
we give an answer, it opens up new questions and new,
I mean, this, it's, it's a complicated matter, which is
why I can understand why so many different Christians disagree
on it, and especially if, if we only surround ourselves
with people who already agree with us. I think we're
never gonna actually properly deal with all that scripture says
(22:26):
on the issue. And then of course, it's a hot topic,
which is why it's being asked multiple times and we
all know from recent events why that is, but, um,
I think, and, and obviously the Old Testament still has
formative power. It's, we're no longer covenantally under it, I
think is, that's what I understand Char to be saying,
but obviously, like Paul would say in 1 Corinthians 10,
(22:48):
referring back to the children of Israel, Moses passing through
the cloud and through the sea, and these things are
written for us, right? They're actually written for our admin.
definition and instruction on whom the end of the ages
has come. So, obviously, as Christians, we still read the
Old Testament, we're not saying it doesn't have value, formative power, validity,
but covenantally, and I think that's the key word, we
(23:10):
are not covenantally under the terms and stipulations of the
Mosaic law, that that very clearly, I think that to me, I,
I can't imagine.
Uh, anyone who calls themselves a Christian arguing against that point,
I think that's, that's the heart of the gospel, that
Jesus is the fulfillment of the promises of God. But
I think in terms of what do we do now, um,
(23:32):
with respect to like the modern say, but, this, this
is how I personally think, and again, I think there's
room for disagreement on the applications or how we think,
and if we haven't fully wrestled through all the tests.
For me, the way I look at it.
It's, I, I, as a Christian, owe the Jewish people
a debt of gratitude. The reason for that is it's
not that they're doing things right and everything their government's doing, uh,
(23:55):
or even that they're believers, cause, like I mentioned, 99%
of ethnic Jews living in Israel reject Jesus Christ as
their Lord and Savior, but nevertheless, that it doesn't change
the fact that according to the flesh, God chose and
used them.
To be the vehicles of his divine revelation, recorded in
sacred scripture, preserved by them for us through centuries, through conflict,
(24:19):
through ups and downs, and migratory settling, all of that,
along with according to the flesh, the Messiah, our Lord
and Savior Jesus Christ. So, for that sake, again, my,
my sort of disposition, I would say, it's not so
much tied into
You know, like Genesis 12:3 or something like is being asked.
It's more just that natural human instinct of gratitude, and
(24:40):
I think Paul is this way where, again, he loves
his Jewish brethren again at some point he wiped his hand,
he said, for now, you know, you guys don't listen,
I'm going to the Gentiles for now. But nevertheless, Paul
still had an affection.
For his people group, for the Jewish people, because he
was one of them, and he said, I love them. I,
I love them so much, I myself wish I was
cursed so that they might be saved, but nevertheless, Paul Ryan,
(25:01):
they're not saved, and they're not doing good, and some
of his harshest critics and conflicts were with um Jewish non-believers,
Jewish uh people.
rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah. So the way I
look at it, I owe them a debt of gratitude
for how God has used them in redemptive history. So,
in whatever way I can, I wanna be a blessing,
but at the same time, that never meant and does
(25:22):
not mean I owe it to the Jewish people or
the state of Israel to side with them when they
are doing things by biblical standards is evil and wrong.
That is, that is not there whatsoever, so it never was.
So that's, that's kind of how I think about it.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
All right. Is there any stuff, other stuff we can
talk about? Of course there is, and that's why we
want to hear from you. 888-564-6173. Yeah, great conversation. If
you wanna hear any part of it again, we're gonna
archive later on Facebook, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify.
But we'd love to hear from you about anything else
that you want to talk about. Here is a, oh,
(26:01):
go ahead. Oh, OK. Are you sure? Yeah, I mean, well,
I just had a thought. Go for it, go for it.
There's been a couple of times this week that I've
had conversations that I think there's something that applies just
for those that are listening.
You know, sometimes, like, what we're looking for is like
the right perspective on world affairs, right? How should we view,
you know, the war in Ukraine, the Russians, how should
(26:23):
we view the Iranians versus, you know, the Jews and
these things, and like Mike said in the beginning, these
are like super complicated questions, far above our pay grade, like,
we don't know what is actually going on in these
secret meetings of governments and things that are being planned
in these things. And, you know, like,
Some of us, in our perspective, we could actually be
(26:46):
wrong on this, but I want to bring it back
to reality.
I don't think God holds me responsible to have the
right perspective on everything that is going on in the world.
What God actually holds me responsible for as a follower
of Jesus Christ, is to love God and to love
my neighbor, and I can only do that in a
(27:07):
local context, you know, and I think sometimes we are
being given because of, you know, 24/7 social media and
this news feed that's constantly coming at us.
This burden of the world that we cannot possibly bear
or really do anything about.
(27:27):
But we have people all around us who need the gospel.
We have people all around us who need to be
shown the love of God. We have homeless in our cities,
homeless families in our cities, we have um sanitary living
issues in our city. We have, you know, all of
(27:48):
these current needs.
And the mistake that we could make is that what
God cares about is our stance on Israel and doesn't
actually care about how we're living out the gospel in
our local context. I think God would say, you're focusing
on the wrong thing, right? Like, and I talk about
(28:11):
this a lot with our church, so this isn't just
me picking on this question.
But we have this way as Christians where we kind of,
you know, check a spiritual box, and we think that
this is what God wants. God addresses this stuff in
the prophets. He says, do you think I want your sacrifices,
your offerings? Do you think I'm thirsty for the blood
of bulls and goats? It was never about that. I
am looking for justice. I am looking for steadfast love.
(28:33):
I am looking for humility. That's the thing that I want.
And so I think that this just, you know, let's
not miss.
The forest for the trees, right? Like, let's not get
so caught up in these questions about these things. These
are fine things to talk about. Yes, it's important to know,
(28:54):
you know, how to understand the story of the Bible,
where we're at. Yes, questions about Israel and our support
for them, but let's never focus on those to the
neglect of what Jesus has called us to do as disciples,
which is to
Follow him, yeah, to be like him, to do what
he did. I just think it's so important just to
(29:14):
emphasize that we're talking about some of this, you know,
huge world events.
No, I've said that before, that oftentimes you'll walk into
a coffee shop and you'll see Christians gathered debating, you know,
Israel or new earth, old Earth, and all these other things. Meanwhile,
the barista is having a bad day. Wouldn't it be
(29:35):
nice if one of us just walked up to them
and just had a conversation, put our arm around them
and
You know, invited them into a not that conversation necessarily,
but just got to know them, etc. So, yeah, good
stuff today on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number to
call us today. We're gonna be here for another 30
minutes and we would love to hear from you. 888-564-6173.
(30:18):
We're back on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is our number. We've
got Char Broderson and Mike Chaddick here to answer your questions. 888-564-6173.
Looks like you guys wanna keep talking about this, so
we will. David in San Diego listening on the Kwave app.
Thank you for calling in today. How can we help you?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Hey, how are you? Thanks
Speaker 1 (30:41):
for taking my call. You bet.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
I have a question about uh some of the comments
you guys made. Um, I've always been understanding that this
covenant that God made with Abraham was an eternal covenant,
a covenant that would go on forever, an everlasting covenant,
as he says in Genesis 13:15, if that covenant is everlasting,
and if Jesus is gonna fulfill that coven covenant when
(31:04):
he comes back and rules and reigns from Jerusalem, um,
why would we not support
The covenant right now. Now that doesn't mean that we
would say everything Israel does is correct. I agreed with
everything you said there, but my question is, why wouldn't
we honor and support uh this grand plan of salvation
that God has set up with this everlasting covenant? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Yeah, you know, I think sometimes, you know, we take
this promise to Abraham, and we think that it means
the whole nation, but
You know, it's specific in the story, and Paul points
this out in Galatians actually, that the seed that is
being talked about.
is singular, and Paul is at lengths to show this
(31:51):
is talking about Messiah.
So, though we have understood it for so long as
referring to the nation, he says, no, we have realized
that this is actually fulfilled in and through Jesus Messiah.
That's why I was going, you know, at lengths to emphasize,
Jesus is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant.
(32:15):
And now, as Paul, you know, a Jew, a Pharisee,
somebody who is so passionate for the law, understanding of
the Old Testament scriptures, shows us now how Israel is
fulfilled and finds its true identity, meaning and purpose through
Jesus Messiah.
(32:35):
And now Jesus redefined who Israel is. This is what
Paul is talking about in the book of Romans, and
also in Galatians, right? That there is a redefinition of
the people of God and the Israel of God because
Messiah has come. And so that's, I think what Mike
(32:56):
is referring to as well, but that's my stance and
understanding is we aren't supposed to be focusing on the
nation state of Israel, but
Actually, the king of Israel, Jesus, and who identifies with
him and who is part of his kingdom. And even
when we're talking about the fulfillment of these things, I
hope that we're recognizing that that would be a messianic
(33:20):
fulfillment of the promises of God.
And so I think we need to be aware, Mike
and I have addressed this before, we need to be aware,
be aware of this kind of backdoor blessing that is
reserved for Israel outside of Jesus. Remember, Jesus is Yahweh.
So, if Israel is rejecting Yahweh, Mike referenced this earlier, 99% of,
(33:45):
you know, Jews living in the land reject Jesus, who
is Yahweh in the flesh. Yahweh become human, right?
And it sounds like, you know, many times we are
creating this caveat where you can still experience the blessing
and favor of God.
As a nation while simultaneously rejecting God.
(34:09):
So, do you, do you understand what I'm, what I'm
getting at here, maybe pointing out kind of the
Logical fallacy of.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
I do,
Speaker 1 (34:19):
but I
Speaker 2 (34:20):
think that we've left the, the original intent of the
question and gotten off into the weeds. The original intent
of the question was, should we, should we support Israel?
And um, I agree that we don't support them unilaterally
in decisions and moral issues or those kind of things,
(34:40):
but as far as uh upholding the covenant, um, that
God placed upon them, God clearly said that that covenant
was forever.
And my question would be, would be, what did God mean?
Um, in Genesis 13 when he said, I make this
covenant as an everlasting covenant forever. And that wasn't just
one verse. I'm quoting from one verse, but, but he
(35:02):
reiterated that forever covenant many times, um, in Genesis 17
when
Abraham said, what do I have to do to get
this covenant, you know, and the deep sleep falls on Abraham, and,
and God passes through, uh, the, these pieces where he
tells him to separate these animals and this, this souran
(35:24):
treaty that Abraham would have been familiar with. Abraham falls
into a deep sleep and God alone passes through the
covenant is.
Solely conditioned on God's faithfulness, we have a nation that
in its disobedience and rejecting the Messiah, which is why
Jesus wept on Palm Sunday. Nobody's saying that, um, Israel's right.
(35:48):
I mean, there's more atheism there and, and you know, immoral,
all that.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
So then what is, what does support for Israel mean then, David?
Like what do you mean by that? I guess maybe
that would be helpful.
To know
Um,
So if we don't support the government there currently in
their atheism, and they, you know, as Mike said, you know,
they're just very anti Judeo-Christian legislation. What what does it
(36:18):
mean to support them? Like we support them in the
wars that they fight and we say that we're on
their side. I mean, what do we, what does support mean?
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Well, for one thing, when you look at the different
regimes and now we're getting off into, uh, you know,
another topic as well. My, my question was really on
Um, are, are you, as the senior pastor of Calvary
Chapel Costa Mesa capitulating off of the, the covenant with Israel,
but to answer your question, to support what it means
(36:46):
to support them is in this issue even right now
with Iran.
The Islamic Republic of Iran under the Ayatollah regime is
an evil republic. I mean, you look at the genocide
that has come out of them, they're the largest.
Um, terrorist group in the in the world right now,
and they're sponsoring all these different proxies of Hamas and
(37:10):
um
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah, I think, I think you're actually,
Speaker 2 (37:14):
I can,
Speaker 1 (37:15):
if I can just say,
Speaker 2 (37:16):
I think so I think for one thing Char was
interpreting the promise that you keep bringing up in Genesis
to Abraham to what Paul said in Galatians 3, so
I'd recommend go back, look at that, because it sounds
like you're assuming the seed that is to be blessed
and everyone should blessed is the nation of Israel. That's
what it sounds like you're saying, except the only problem
(37:38):
with that is Paul disagrees with you.
In Galatians 3, he said, the seed is not plural,
it is singular, and he's, he's very clear here. It
refers to Christ in and through Christ, all the nations
of the world will be blessed. So that's what Charles
is doing, but that's not what I wanted to address.
You keep bringing up the word forever. I, do you
(38:00):
know what the Hebrew word is for that?
Back to back to the Galatians comment just real quick. Well,
let me, well, no, I, I need to address this
because you keep bringing it up and it hasn't been addressed.
The word is Ola, and if you think that means forever,
that also applies to animal sacrifice. Do you continue to
do animal sacrifices today cause it says Ola forever.
(38:25):
Well, I think in the um millennial kingdom there will
be animal sacrifice. This is the remembrance of Christ. So yes.
So, Christ, the final sacrifice who fulfills it. He's the last,
he is the Passover lamb but you think they're gonna
keep doing animal sacrifices after Jesus has
Set to tell this diet is finished.
In the millennial kingdom, I think there'll be animal sacrifice. OK, well, OK,
(38:49):
do you do animal sacrifices now? No, of course not.
Christ is the, the finished work. OK, but, but how
do you say of course when it says forever?
You need to do these things forever.
In the Torah.
Well, I feel like you're, you're getting argumentative. I don't
think that no, no, not at all. I'm being exegetical.
(39:10):
It literally, here's what I find people don't know, especially
if you haven't studied Hebrew. The word olam sometimes can
be translated forever. It also means in perpetuity, for example.
In the various laws in Exodus and Leviticus, somebody will
become someone's slave, Olam, forever. Does that literally mean an eternity?
(39:31):
We're gonna be the slaves of different people. It says
you will offer these animal sacrifices, you will observe the
various feasts, Olam, forever. What theologians acknowledge.
Scholars of Hebrew, it means in perpetuity. In other words,
as long as the covenant is in effect, these things
will be observed. The point Chahar was making is the
(39:52):
Mosaic covenant, the Abrahammock covenant. Paul would say actually in
2 Corinthians, all the promises of God, by the way,
the word all means all.
are fulfilled in Jesus. They are yes and amen. Paul
says that the seed back in Genesis, that it sounds
like you're thinking, is the ethnic nation of Israel, the
(40:13):
apostle Paul, who was actually a member of ethnic Israel,
said it refers to Christ. So I think there's a
little misunderstanding of what Olam means in Hebrew, and how
it's used regularly throughout the Torah.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
Very good. David, thank you for your phone call today
here on Pastor's Perspective at 888-564-6173. So yeah, our homework
tonight is to read Galatians 3. Let's do it. OK,
so you guys do want to talk about other stuff.
Here's Debbie and Mission Viejo. Welcome to Pastor's Perspective.
All right, thank you so much. Um, there is a
(40:48):
gentleman who's on my, uh, Facebook feed, who keeps popping up,
and he, uh, discusses a lot about creation and how
science backs the Bible. And I find it very interesting,
but the last time I found him on my feed,
he was talking about how important it was for us
to share the good news, share the gospel with others.
(41:11):
And which I totally agree with. But he says if
we neglect to do that, or we don't take the
opportunity to do that, that, um, if that person goes
to hell, it's partially our fault and that we will
have to answer for that on judgment day. And
(41:31):
The red flags started popping up, but I'm thinking, where
in the scriptures would he get this idea? Um, so
I just, I kind of already have a point of
view on how I feel about that, but I just
wanted to get a perspective, uh, from you gentlemen.
All right, Char, we'll start with you.
I mean, yeah, I'm not sure which scripture that he
(41:54):
is referring to. I mean, there are plenty of scriptures.
Right, to talk to us just about the importance of
our faith actually having feet, you know, like that we
walk these things out, that they aren't just words that
we affirm, you know, in our pews, but that we
actually have a living faith and we make known the
(42:17):
kingdom of God. And I, I think, you know, as
we look at the New Testament and especially the story
there in the Gospel in the book of Acts, like
this was just what the Christian community did, right?
The way that they lived was a witness, a testament
to the kingdom of God. The way that they spoke
was they testified to what Jesus had done for them, right?
(42:38):
It was all about God's kingdom, and the word that's
used there in the Greek is that they would almost gossip,
you know, the good news. It was just like, kind
of the word on the street and everybody's talking about
this message about God's kingdom, and it's like no other kingdom,
and
And so it was just part of their life to
proclaim the kingdom of God, both through their words and
through their deeds. And of course, there are many scriptures
(43:00):
that talk about the importance that our deeds match what
we proclaim, and that the day of judgment will reveal
what is genuine or disingenuine.
And I think, if I could, you know, I, I
don't know this guy, I don't know what he says,
but I think sometimes, uh, pastors and maybe evangelists, we
(43:21):
kind of camp out on that day of judgment, and unfortunately,
I think we make it this kind of threat to Christians, and,
you know, kind of try to scare people, it's scared
tactics into evangelism, but I don't, we don't really see
Jesus doing that.
What we see Jesus doing and even the apostles doing,
(43:43):
is they want us to be introspective. They want us
to know that we know that we belong to God.
And so, you know, they give us these tools for examining,
are we really part of God's people? And if we are, well,
there should be this kind of love for God, and
this is what it looks like. There should be this
love of neighbor, and this is what it looks like.
There should be forgiveness, cause God has forgiven us, there
(44:04):
should be peace because God has made peace with us.
So there are these tools for self-examination.
The fruit, we examine that in our lives to know
that we are with Jesus, so that on that day,
you know, John talks about this in his epistle, we
will see him, we will be like him, we will
see him as we as as he is, and everyone
(44:27):
who has his hope within them purifies himself just as
he is pure, right? There's actually an anticipation and an
excitement for the day, not a fear.
And so, uh, you know, I, I am one of
those ones that I wanna lean into that anticipation. I
want to lean into that excitement. And I think the
warnings of scripture are there for those people who feel
(44:51):
that they are safe in the sense of like, well,
I don't really have to do anything, and I don't
really have to abide by that. And, you know, I,
I believed in, cause I said this prayer, and yeah,
of course I trust God, but my life looks this way.
The warnings of scripture are to be applied to them.
And those introspections are tool for them, and these passages
(45:12):
would actually be warning passages for them to motivate them,
if that makes sense. I think we have to be
careful how we use this, and even
The writers of the New Testament talk about this, you know,
we need to discern this stuff. There's some kinds of
people that you want to have a sensitivity because they
have a sensitive conscience and you don't want to come
(45:32):
down heavy-handed. There are other people who are hard-hearted and
they're blind, and you need to be firm with them, like, hey,
you are.
Resisting what the Lord is doing, and if you do
not turn to the Lord, these are the consequences that
are gonna ensue, and you're gonna stand before Christ. And
so I think as pastors and leaders, we need to
discern how to rightly use the word to motivate this
(45:56):
life of faithfully following Jesus. Mike, any thoughts on this
before you make your comment about the previous call, the
other comment you wanted to add?
Speaker 2 (46:05):
No, no, I thought Char wrapped that up very well. Yeah, no,
I just, I just, you know, the thing is, especially
with the whole Israel conversation, we're not speaking into a vacuum, right?
There is all kinds of current event stuff happening right now,
social stuff, political stuff, military stuff, all of that.
And so I recognize, again, as a public communicator, the
(46:27):
goal of communicating well is not simply to say what
I wanna say, although that takes effort, but to anticipate
how people are hearing you. And I think the problem with, like,
even the discussion we're having exegetically, like I hope all
Christians would not be against going back to the Bible
and making sure our interpretations are correct.
So if somebody proposes a system, well, I've always heard that, OK,
(46:48):
but if biblically we go back to the Bible and
find out it's wrong, I hope you don't push back
on that or say, oh, I'm not, I'm not gonna
accept that, or that's bad. Somebody could use the correct
biblical interpretation to do something bad. So hopefully we can
have in in-house, as Christians, conversations about what the Bible says,
always come back to it, be open.
To being corrected by scripture, if we're wrong, but, having
(47:12):
said that, I recognize all kinds of people could be
listening online, on the radio and stuff, and I just
wanna make sure because, obviously, as a Christian,
Anti-Semitism is a sin. It's wrong, because I think some
people get the idea if you don't interpret script scriptures
in such a way that we think Genesis 12 so
(47:33):
applies to this and this and that, and unless you
do that, which is an exegetical question, then you, you
have to let anti-Semitism go and all this.
Absolutely not. That's a false dichotomy. I can absolutely and
have all the tools I need to stand against anti-Semitism.
It is sinful and wrong. On the one hand, we
can say, well, that's true of any people group, right?
(47:53):
We wouldn't want anybody of any ethnicity, uh, being persecuted
and stuff like that. But I will say this, and
I'll make this further point. Obviously, I think many of
us are even more sensitive.
Uh, to guard against anti-Semitism because we live within a
century of the Holocaust, and we've seen the vitriol and
(48:15):
the hate that has come from the world and unfortunately
from some Christian circles, and I think it's just important
that we make a distinction between exegesis of biblical texts
wanting to be faithful to God.
But never saying, even if this interpretation is right, and
the one you previously thought was wrong, whatever, that's never
going to be a case for going for being anti-Semitic
(48:39):
or anything like that or suggesting that Israel doesn't have
a right to exist as a nation today and all
all that kind of stuff.
I think that's clearly wrong. I can stand for that
on a human basis, humanitarian basis, as well as a
Christian ethical moral basis without necessarily betting the farm on
ignoring certain scriptures or twisting them or ignoring the new covenant,
(49:01):
all that kind of stuff. So,
That was kind of my disclaimer. Yeah,
Speaker 1 (49:05):
I got
out there. We've talked about this before, but, you know,
when it comes to nation states and protecting their borders,
and this question right now, you know, of this preemptive
strike that Israel made on Iran, we're talking about warring
nations here, and then we're bringing theology into it and
Old Testament questions, like you said, you know, into these
(49:25):
modern things like we believe that nations have a right
to protect their people.
How they go about doing that. I, I don't what
I was trying to get to earlier, I don't think
it's our responsibility to weigh in every single time on
this was good, this was bad, this is right, this
is wrong, and I think if you're looking for that
kind of, you know, theological backing from scripture, you're not
(49:49):
gonna find it, you know. Well, who does God bless,
you know, when you bomb them? Like, you're not gonna
find that answer in scripture.
God is not for bombing any people, right? And so,
we understand that there are these wars going on there,
but we're unfortunately bringing these theological questions into it and saying, like, basically,
(50:09):
does God condone this? Is God for the bombing of
the Iranian people? I would say no.
Like, are there, is there a part of my brain
that says, do I understand that Israel's government is afraid
of Iran having nuclear weapons? Yes, and preemptively striking them. Yes,
that's what nations do in order to protect their people.
(50:32):
Does God want this?
No, like, read the Bible, God wants peace. God wants
to heal the world of all of these wars and conflicts,
and he's gonna do that one day through Jesus Messiah.
You know, so, again, this stuff is very complicated. There's
(50:53):
so many political layers to it, but I, I just love, Mike,
what you're doing there, like, just bringing us back to like,
the right exeg Jesus helps us land on, we're supposed
to be about Jesus. The Bible is very clear that
all of these things have been fulfilled in and through him,
and so, let's keep our eyes on him.
(51:15):
And let's allow Jesus, his life, his death, his resurrection,
his ascension, his current reigning over all things, his renewal
of all things, to help us interpret how to live
in this world as representatives of Christ.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Well, and to your point, part of the problem with
weighing in, let, let's even hypothetically say it's a Christian
duty to weigh in on every single social political thing
that happens. There's still the question of accuracy of facts,
you know, and I think in the modern world with
the internet, a lot of people believe they've got 100% truth.
From their news source, their web source, it could be,
(51:51):
could be Fox, could be CNN, it could be what,
you know, some aggregate thing could be an underground website,
you know, in somebody's grandma's basement, whatever it is. And people,
I mean, I guess for me, I'm personally more skeptical
of news sources. Again, there's ones I do believe, uh,
I'm not totally agnostic, but I, I, I guess there's
some I believe are more truthful than others, but I,
(52:11):
I don't believe anyone's unbiased. I believe everyone has an
angle of some kind, and I also believe
There's no one that has 100% of the truth all
the time. Uh, the Bible is the only thing I
know that's 100% true, literally, and, and that's the only
thing I know is 100% true. So I think just being,
being humble and cautious in making
(52:35):
Weighty moral judgments on things that personally, you actually have
no real firsthand knowledge. We're just going off of whatever
we're being fed. And if you're a conservative, obviously, you
feel like you're conservative news source is pretty accurate. If
you're a liberal, you feel like your liberal news source
is accurate, and I feel like both of them are
actually kind of wrong in the sense they're trusting way
too much in what's just being spoon fed to people.
(52:57):
So I think just being careful about that in general
is an important thing to do as well.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
So we had a caller who said that she agreed
with David, the person who called in and everything he said, yeah,
and she said that she thinks Pastor Chuck Smith would
agree with David. What do you think?
Well, he's not here for us to ask him, so.
(53:25):
Yeah, and I think Chuck probably sees things clearly now,
you know, my grandpa, he had a lot of opinions,
but I know this, that he was always, uh, trying
to subject his opinion to scripture. And I know that
he believed that Jesus was the fulfillment of Israel. I
know that. Um, I heard him preach many, many times
(53:48):
said under his teaching, and so I know that he
agrees with Mike and I on.
Uh, the exegesis of Genesis and Galatians.
And yet, you know, my grandpa was, yeah, very, uh,
he had such a, a heart for uh the Jewish
people and for the land of Israel and went there many,
many times, and he had many, many friendships there. And
(54:10):
yet he did not, you know, support everything that Israel did.
You know, my grandpa used his mind and he used
the scripture to discern those things. So, yeah, and again,
he's not here for us to ask specifically.
You know, if he would have, if he gives, you know,
today the modern Israelites full support. Yeah, Mike.
Speaker 2 (54:29):
And and again, as great as someone was, whether it's
Pastor Chuck in our lifetime or, uh, Martin Luther or
a Charles Spurgeon, whoever, to be honest, if you're a
Protestant evangelical, it comes down to the Bible and you
know what, great men, great and wonderful men, Christian men,
Christian women.
can be mistaken. So at the end of the day,
it's always what does the Bible say? And if the
(54:51):
Bible says, inspired by the Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul,
that the seed is singular and it's Christ, I'm not
gonna try to find ways to argue out of that.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
Very good, man. What a program. It's gonna be archived
a little bit later on if you want to hear
it again. Thank you so much for all of you
who participated. We will be back tomorrow between 3 and
40 p.m. Pacific time. If we didn't get to your
call today, please try again tomorrow. For Char Broderson and
Mike Chattick, I'm Brian Perez, and thank you so much
for listening and watching Pastor's Perspective.
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez.
It is Monday, the 23rd of June, and we are
here live until 4 o'clock and we'd love to chat
with you.
At 888-564-6173. Give us a call. We would love to chat,
and you can also send in your questions online if
you'd like, but the best way to get an answer
(00:39):
today is to call us at 888-564-6173. And answering your
questions today, we've got the lead pastor of Calvary.
Costa Mesa in Southern California. That would be Char Broderson.
How are you doing, Char? I'm doing all right. How
are you, Brian? Doing well. Great to have you here
in the studio. And Mike Chaddick is joining us too.
(01:00):
He's on Zoom joining us online. Mike is the pastor
of Image Church in San Juan Capistrano, California. How are you, Mike?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I'm doing wonderful. Good to be here, guys.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Yeah, totally good to have you here. Not as good
as having you here live in the studio, but hey,
Speaker 2 (01:16):
well it's, it's a step down, but I, I appreciate
the opportunity. We sure
Speaker 1 (01:20):
do appreciate you being there.
888-564-6173 is our number. You can also send us your
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(01:43):
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an answer is to call us when we're here like
today till 4 o'clock at 888-564-6173.
So lots of stuff happened over the weekend and uh
we've got some questions in that regard. Here's one from
(02:06):
Sherry who sent this on Facebook. Hello, are we biblically
required to support Israel? Where does it say that in
the Bible? I saw a clip that said, Old Testament
Israelis are not the same as now, so we don't
always have to protect them. I've always believed we did.
This made me question, do I know what I'm talking about?
(02:28):
I don't even know how to look that up in
the Bible to understand that. Uh, Char, we'll start with you.
What would you say to Sherry? Yeah, I mean, I
think Sherry is uh bringing up a topic that's really important.
I think, uh, many times we hear these statements.
And I think we just pull them kind of right
out of their biblical context and out of the biblical story,
(02:50):
and we treat them, you know, as like kind of these.
Uh, dogmatic essentials of what it means to be a Christian,
you know, without actually knowing where they fit in the story,
what they mean, who they were originally spoken to. And so,
you know, Sherry's question, I think, goes all the way
back to this promise that God gives to Abraham.
(03:11):
And we need to understand that Abraham, you know, he's
the father of the nation of Israel, but Abraham actually
comes later in the story of the Bible, right? The
story of the Bible begins with Adam and Eve, who
are the mother and father of all humanity, and the
story starts about how God created them and his image
created them to be his partners and to work with him.
To spread his kingdom to the ends of the earth.
(03:33):
They rebel and reject that offer, they leave God's presence
in the garden, this partnership kind of goes off the rails, and,
you know, kind of the world is in this downward
spiral until we come.
Basically, to Genesis chapter 12, where God is redeeming the story,
and he chooses Abraham as his vessel, and his family
(03:55):
as his vessel through which God is going to bring
this human project back on its rails. And so,
In the context, right? God is saying, like, I'm gonna
be with you, Abraham, I'm gonna bring this thing to
its finish and it's fulfillment, and whoever comes against you,
and my plans for you is not gonna prosper, but
those who do work with you and help you along,
(04:19):
I'm going to bless them. So that's the context in
which this comes into, and I think unfortunately, we don't
follow the story out.
That Israel goes through the family of Abraham, goes through
all of these ups and downs, where God is correcting
them and bringing them back into his ways, but all
of this culminates in the story of Jesus, that Jesus
(04:42):
Christ is actually the fulfillment of Israel's story.
That he is the true king over Israel, and really
all of the promises that God made to Abraham, to
the nation of Israel, to David the king, even the
promise of the new covenant that we find later in
Jeremiah and Ezekiel, and the visions that we find in Isaiah,
(05:04):
all of these are fulfilled in Jesus.
And so now Jesus defines for us who we are
to bless, who we are to curse, who we are
to support, who we are to resist. And I think
we really need to look at the teachings of Jesus
specifically in the sermon on the Mount. Now, nowhere in
(05:25):
scripture does it say that we are to give our
full support to any human government, right? That like,
You know, when we, when we look at the world,
we don't just go, well, you know, pick a random country, like,
I just support that government and whatever they do, we
need to use our minds, and we need to use
the scripture to discern what is right and wrong, and
(05:47):
to discern what things, you know, that government does honors God,
doesn't honor God, and specifically we do this through looking
at the teachings of Jesus. I could go on and
talk more about this, but
You know, I don't think the question is, you know,
do we support Israel now, um,
(06:09):
I, I just think we're asking the wrong question. I
think the question that we should be asking is, what
does it mean to be a follower of Jesus? And who,
what government on earth do I actually give my allegiance to?
And I think the answer from the Bible is, um,
Jesus wants me to be his disciple, and he wants
(06:29):
me to give his allegiance to him and him alone,
and any nation state that I belong to actually comes
secondary to my allegiance to Jesus and to his kingdom.
And if I want to give my, you know, money
or my verbal, or, you know, social media support to
another nation on earth, again, I need to scrutinize that
(06:50):
according to
Uh, the righteousness and justice that is clearly laid out
in scripture, and not just because of some verse that
I've ripped from its context. Now, let me just say this, uh,
saying this, I'm not antagonistic towards Israelis, I'm not antagonistic
towards Palestinians. The the
(07:12):
Understanding of the gospel is that God wants all people
to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
And so he is the God of the nation of Israel.
As well as the God of the nations, and the
New Testament makes this abundantly clear. God is for people,
and he wants them to be part of his kingdom.
And I think the problem is, is
(07:34):
Sometimes if I'm supporting one nation state, it automatically means
I'm anti this nation. And I think we as Christians,
as followers of Jesus, we have to be aware of,
you know, political positioning like that, because following Jesus actually
forbids me from being antibody. I am
people that they would come to know the knowledge of
(07:54):
the truth about who Jesus is. I've said enough. Go
pitch to Mike. Well, real quick, Mike, before you answer
what we have another question on the same topic. I
probably should have just read them back to back, but
let me read this question, which brings up some of
the same points as the other one, but um,
So, uh, here's what it is. Uh, I really need
your help with a spiritual question that has political subtext,
(08:15):
and I want to make sure I'm understanding scripture properly
and in context. I have a deep love and respect
for the Jews. My whole life I've heard, bless Israel
and you will.
blessed, cursed Israel, and you will be cursed. Genesis 12:3.
Many Christians interpret this as a command to support the
modern state of Israel without criticism. Others say it refers
to God's covenant with Abraham's descendants and should not be
(08:37):
equated with a political nation. So I reread the scripture
and saw it doesn't in the NIV refer to Israel,
but to Abraham's descendants that blew my mind. I feel
like if I understand the context and meaning of the
scripture in Genesis, I can be on the right side of.
The politics. In Genesis 12:3, uh, is Genesis 12:3 about
(08:59):
supporting a political state without question or comment about war
or potentially genocide? Is it about honoring God's covenant people
in a different way? How should I faithfully live out
this verse today?
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Well, I'm assuming we're gonna go to other questions eventually
on this episode. This is a big can of worms,
those are fantastic questions. There's many layers to them. They,
I mean, just exegetical alone, meaning if you look at
various Bible passages, both in the Old Testament and exploring
the context, looking at the language, coming to the New Testament,
(09:34):
what seems to be the same, what's changed, what's fulfilled,
what's transformed, uh, what, what's perpetual.
Those are all, I, I think, uh, I mean, you
have to have those conversations. I'm in the middle of
having them with other people are delved into some of
that uh exegetical stuff, um.
I think, here, I, I can't get into all of
(09:54):
it right now. There's no way I can possibly do that.
Here's one thing I will say, even let's go back
to Genesis 12 and, and talking about, I'll bless those
who bless you and curse those who curse you. And
I'll leave aside the question of whether it applies to
the modern secular state of Israel today or whether it doesn't.
Let's go back to the beginning and let me point
(10:16):
out what it clearly never meant.
For anyone ever, and that was unqualified support. It never
meant that. If you believe that you are taking a
stand against God.
Because God took a stand against Israel. God brought judgment
(10:37):
on Israel. God sent foreign nations to punish Israel. Israel,
time and time and time again, was in gross licentious sin,
not only doing many of the same sins as the Canaanites,
but it was even worse because they were doing so
with the full knowledge of the true and living God. So,
(10:57):
let's keep in mind, however, you're going to interpret.
The Abrahamic covenant in the Old Testament context, but not
even getting the New Testament, which of course you must
do eventually, and it, it can change things, but let's
just even take it there. I think it never ever
ever meant support like if support means affirm.
(11:18):
And validate every action and every word. It never meant that.
That's ridiculous. God would be wrong, and I'm not gonna
stand against God. God is clearly in the right, every
time he speaks, every time he acts, that means every
harsh word, every prophet, I was just going through Amos
and my own personal preaching, and he's preaching the woes,
(11:40):
and you have these prophets, and they're lamenting against Israel's sin.
I mean, ironically, the, the unfaithful Jews in Israel at
that time, they were angry and wanting to persecute and
kill the prophets because they were criticizing what they were doing.
They were criticizing the national agenda. As a matter of fact,
like Jeremiah was thrown into a pit. Why? Because he
(12:01):
was seen as a political traitor.
Because he said capitulate to the enemy, because the message
to Jeremiah was, hey, I'm punishing you, so don't fight this.
I'm punishing you. This is gonna happen. So Jeremiah, go
tell them, Jeremiah's faithfully tells them, and they're like, you're
standing against us, you're a traitor, how could you not
support us in everything we say or do, you're a Jew,
well this is Israel, you'll do what we say, or
(12:22):
you'll go down to the pit. So, it never meant that.
Let's just be very, very clear, and I think what
I want to speak to here is not so much
the exegetical side, but
When it was reported the other night that, you know,
the United States dropped bombs on Iran and they, and they,
you know, directly in the conflict between Iran and Israel,
and a lot of Christians, including pastors, started posting on
(12:44):
social media, I support Israel, again, that's, that's sort of
my camp. You'll probably see 90% of those, maybe 10%,
like remember Iran, remember about probably less than 10%.
If you grow up in another camp, it might be
the opposite. Remember Palestine, remember Iran, we hate Israel, but
that's not my world. I don't think that was Char's world, uh,
either growing up. So I think we need to just
(13:05):
be careful, all of us, even if you don't agree
on our exegesis.
I think sometimes when we say I stand with I support,
I think it might help instead of just a little
meme or graphic you're posting. Explain what exactly that means,
because while you and your camp might understand what that means,
there is a
Who unbelieving world, there are people from various backgrounds, various kinds,
(13:30):
and they're they're reading your words, they're seeing your little post,
and they're coming away with something. I, I hope it's
not what you're saying, which is Christians must stand with
Israel when they're wrong.
So, for example, Israel today, the modern Jewish state of Israel,
which is a secular state, so in that sense, it
it certainly is a little bit different than the Old Testament,
(13:50):
but 99% plus of ethnic Jews in Israel reject Jesus
Christ as their Lord and Savior. So, that's apostasy by
biblical standards. So, I certainly hope when we're saying I
stand with Israel, we're not saying I stand with apostasy.
I hope we're not saying that.
Israel is the gay capital of the Middle East. Tel
(14:11):
Aviv has the largest LGBTQ pride festival in the Middle East. It's,
it's called the gay Mecca. I hope we're not saying
as evangelical by believing quote unquote, conservative Christians, that that's good.
We support sexual perversity. I hope we're not saying that. So,
what I wanna leave everyone with here is just be
(14:32):
very careful. We have such polarization.
In our culture today, and, and I think too often we're,
we're preaching to the choir, and we're not being careful
with our words, especially our slogans and our symbols and
things like that, and we need to very carefully unpack,
because I think it's possible to have a different take
on exeg Jesus, right? There's gonna be a lot of
(14:53):
Christians who believe, no, no, no, those, those promises still apply.
We have to bless the ethnic Israel today. OK, OK.
But even if that's your exegetical position, please go back
and remember from the Old Testament.
That never meant affirming Israel in its wickedness, never, not
a single time. So I think there's room for, in
(15:13):
some sense, like validation, appreciation, a debt of gratitude is
the language I like to earn. I, I owe the
Jewish people a debt of gratitude, but a debt of
gratitude never means I'm obligated to stand with someone when
they're wrong. That's not how I repay a debt of gratitude,
so I just hope we're very careful.
And kind of the, the way we're approaching this and
(15:35):
the way we're projecting our beliefs to the world, because
I think if it doesn't reflect a genuine exegetical theological misunderstanding,
we are causing a lot of communication and social problems
in the world by not being careful.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Do you think the idea that Christians, if we bless Israel,
if we pray for the peace of Jerusalem, that the
idea is, well, if we pray for them, they'll turn
around and the people in Tel Aviv who are who
aren't Christians will maybe they'll become Christians because they'll see
that we love them.
(16:11):
I think this is one of those things I mentioned
this earlier, I think.
There are certain passages in scripture that were spoken.
You know, they are for that, well, actually all the
passages in scripture, right, are for a specific community at
that moment in a specific context, and we need to
understand this, you know, it has been wisely said, scripture
(16:32):
is not written for us, or excuse me, it's not
written to us, but it is written for us. And
I think we need to differentiate on things like this.
And sometimes, you know, I mentioned we need to know
where we're at in the story. Sometimes we'll just drop ourselves.
You know, in this thing, right? So, when we're reading
passages like Genesis 12, right, we're understanding that this is
(16:53):
God's plan of redemption, not just for Israel, for the
whole world, for all of humanity, right? And it's not just,
you know, like Mike saying, like this, you know, blank
check that Israel can just do whatever it wants and
never be criticized because God's on their side, right?
But saying, God will be faithful to them, to the
end to accomplish his purpose. That's what he's telling Abraham,
(17:16):
you know, uh, another passage puts it this way, no
weapon formed against you shall prosper, right? So God's saying like,
nothing's gonna take you out and thwart my promises to
redeem the world. That's what God is saying. Take the
whole message together, right? Don't just extract one verse and
just think that this is some kind of like exchange
that you can do with God.
I think also pray for the peace of Jerusalem. You know, again,
(17:39):
this is a Psalm, right? That is talking about, you know,
the turmoil that's going on in among the nations in Israel,
and what they want is peace. And so there's this
encouragement to the people of God that we would pray
for God's peace, but that isn't just something that like,
you know, God zaps like peace, cause we prayed for it.
(17:59):
It's actually something that the people of God had to
choose to walk in God's righteousness and justice and mercy
in order to experience his peace. So, you know, when
we're talking about these things, sometimes we treat biblical promises
like magical incantations, like a rain god kind of a thing,
(18:19):
you know, well, if I, God said, if I just
do this recipe, then he does this, you know.
And that's just not the way that biblical promises work,
and that's why I referenced in the beginning, all of
this actually has to do with Jesus. He is the
one that brings all of this to pass, and it
finds fulfillment in him. And now, some people are gonna
get really ticked off that I'm gonna say this.
(18:42):
But in the New Testament, we never find a command.
That we have to bless the Jews, and we will
be blessed. If we curse them, we will be cursed.
We never find an exhortation to pray for the peace
of Jerusalem. And I have actually suggested that Jesus gives
us a new prayer to pray, in place of the
(19:04):
pray for the pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Now,
remember that Jerusalem was the center of Israel's identity politically, religiously,
it's the seat of God.
Reigning over the nations there at the temple, but we
understand that that actually has come to fulfillment in and
through the person of Jesus Christ, right? He is the
living presence of God, housing that temple present, power, holiness,
(19:27):
it's all found in him. And so, Jesus taught us
to pray.
Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as
it is in heaven. He's not focusing on the blessing
of Jerusalem, he's focusing on actually God's kingdom going to
the ends of the earth, it not being concentrated anymore
to a locale, but now, through Christ's body, the church,
(19:51):
and by his spirit, it's spreading to the ends of
the earth. And so, again, I just think that this
is one of those areas where we get stuck in
a part of the story.
And we think, oh, this is what God wants. God
wants all the world to be focused on this part
of land and to pray for that peace, that wasn't
God's plan from the beginning. Remember, read this even just
in the Gospels in the Book of Acts, the kingdom
(20:15):
message is gonna spread through Jesus' disciples, the good news.
About the reign of God from Jerusalem to Judea, to Samaria,
to the ends of the earth. Jerusalem is no longer
the center point, it's the sending point to go to
all the other places, so that the whole world can
experience the peaceful reign of God. And so I think
(20:37):
we're just getting the story, we're going backwards into the story.
You know, it's like
You know, people will get this analogy sometimes, right? When
we're questioning the law and we're wondering like what is
its validity today?
And, you know, or, well, if it's not valid today,
then it didn't ever matter. And many theologians have pointed
out that the law works as a signpost, right? But
(21:00):
once you arrive at the destination that the signs were
pointing to, you don't go back to the signs. It
doesn't make any sense. You've arrived at the destination, so
the signs actually did what they were intended to do.
And now that you have arrived, enjoy, live in it,
you know, and so that's actually what we're saying about
Jesus. He has fulfilled all that the promises of Abraham,
(21:23):
the law, the covenant given to David and to Jeremiah,
all of that was pointing to him. And we've arrived
at him. Why are we going back to these Old
Testament promises and trying to, you know, um,
Take them to the bank when they've already been cashed in,
so to speak, with Jesus. Keep your eyes on Jesus.
(21:44):
Follow him. He is the way, he is the truth,
He is the life. Let him define reality for you.
Let him define blessing for you. Let him show you
who we are to love, who we are to bless,
who we are to serve, and stop going back to
these other covenants. They are pointing forward. I'm done.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Yeah, no, I just, again, I feel like every time
we give an answer, it opens up new questions and new,
I mean, this, it's, it's a complicated matter, which is
why I can understand why so many different Christians disagree
on it, and especially if, if we only surround ourselves
with people who already agree with us. I think we're
never gonna actually properly deal with all that scripture says
(22:26):
on the issue. And then of course, it's a hot topic,
which is why it's being asked multiple times and we
all know from recent events why that is, but, um,
I think, and, and obviously the Old Testament still has
formative power. It's, we're no longer covenantally under it, I
think is, that's what I understand Char to be saying,
but obviously, like Paul would say in 1 Corinthians 10,
(22:48):
referring back to the children of Israel, Moses passing through
the cloud and through the sea, and these things are
written for us, right? They're actually written for our admin.
definition and instruction on whom the end of the ages
has come. So, obviously, as Christians, we still read the
Old Testament, we're not saying it doesn't have value, formative power, validity,
but covenantally, and I think that's the key word, we
(23:10):
are not covenantally under the terms and stipulations of the
Mosaic law, that that very clearly, I think that to me, I,
I can't imagine.
Uh, anyone who calls themselves a Christian arguing against that point,
I think that's, that's the heart of the gospel, that
Jesus is the fulfillment of the promises of God. But
I think in terms of what do we do now, um,
(23:32):
with respect to like the modern say, but, this, this
is how I personally think, and again, I think there's
room for disagreement on the applications or how we think,
and if we haven't fully wrestled through all the tests.
For me, the way I look at it.
It's, I, I, as a Christian, owe the Jewish people
a debt of gratitude. The reason for that is it's
not that they're doing things right and everything their government's doing, uh,
(23:55):
or even that they're believers, cause, like I mentioned, 99%
of ethnic Jews living in Israel reject Jesus Christ as
their Lord and Savior, but nevertheless, that it doesn't change
the fact that according to the flesh, God chose and
used them.
To be the vehicles of his divine revelation, recorded in
sacred scripture, preserved by them for us through centuries, through conflict,
(24:19):
through ups and downs, and migratory settling, all of that,
along with according to the flesh, the Messiah, our Lord
and Savior Jesus Christ. So, for that sake, again, my,
my sort of disposition, I would say, it's not so
much tied into
You know, like Genesis 12:3 or something like is being asked.
It's more just that natural human instinct of gratitude, and
(24:40):
I think Paul is this way where, again, he loves
his Jewish brethren again at some point he wiped his hand,
he said, for now, you know, you guys don't listen,
I'm going to the Gentiles for now. But nevertheless, Paul
still had an affection.
For his people group, for the Jewish people, because he
was one of them, and he said, I love them. I,
I love them so much, I myself wish I was
cursed so that they might be saved, but nevertheless, Paul Ryan,
(25:01):
they're not saved, and they're not doing good, and some
of his harshest critics and conflicts were with um Jewish non-believers,
Jewish uh people.
rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah. So the way I
look at it, I owe them a debt of gratitude
for how God has used them in redemptive history. So,
in whatever way I can, I wanna be a blessing,
but at the same time, that never meant and does
(25:22):
not mean I owe it to the Jewish people or
the state of Israel to side with them when they
are doing things by biblical standards is evil and wrong.
That is, that is not there whatsoever, so it never was.
So that's, that's kind of how I think about it.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
All right. Is there any stuff, other stuff we can
talk about? Of course there is, and that's why we
want to hear from you. 888-564-6173. Yeah, great conversation. If
you wanna hear any part of it again, we're gonna
archive later on Facebook, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify.
But we'd love to hear from you about anything else
that you want to talk about. Here is a, oh,
(26:01):
go ahead. Oh, OK. Are you sure? Yeah, I mean, well,
I just had a thought. Go for it, go for it.
There's been a couple of times this week that I've
had conversations that I think there's something that applies just
for those that are listening.
You know, sometimes, like, what we're looking for is like
the right perspective on world affairs, right? How should we view,
you know, the war in Ukraine, the Russians, how should
(26:23):
we view the Iranians versus, you know, the Jews and
these things, and like Mike said in the beginning, these
are like super complicated questions, far above our pay grade, like,
we don't know what is actually going on in these
secret meetings of governments and things that are being planned
in these things. And, you know, like,
Some of us, in our perspective, we could actually be
(26:46):
wrong on this, but I want to bring it back
to reality.
I don't think God holds me responsible to have the
right perspective on everything that is going on in the world.
What God actually holds me responsible for as a follower
of Jesus Christ, is to love God and to love
my neighbor, and I can only do that in a
(27:07):
local context, you know, and I think sometimes we are
being given because of, you know, 24/7 social media and
this news feed that's constantly coming at us.
This burden of the world that we cannot possibly bear
or really do anything about.
(27:27):
But we have people all around us who need the gospel.
We have people all around us who need to be
shown the love of God. We have homeless in our cities,
homeless families in our cities, we have um sanitary living
issues in our city. We have, you know, all of
(27:48):
these current needs.
And the mistake that we could make is that what
God cares about is our stance on Israel and doesn't
actually care about how we're living out the gospel in
our local context. I think God would say, you're focusing
on the wrong thing, right? Like, and I talk about
(28:11):
this a lot with our church, so this isn't just
me picking on this question.
But we have this way as Christians where we kind of,
you know, check a spiritual box, and we think that
this is what God wants. God addresses this stuff in
the prophets. He says, do you think I want your sacrifices,
your offerings? Do you think I'm thirsty for the blood
of bulls and goats? It was never about that. I
am looking for justice. I am looking for steadfast love.
(28:33):
I am looking for humility. That's the thing that I want.
And so I think that this just, you know, let's
not miss.
The forest for the trees, right? Like, let's not get
so caught up in these questions about these things. These
are fine things to talk about. Yes, it's important to know,
(28:54):
you know, how to understand the story of the Bible,
where we're at. Yes, questions about Israel and our support
for them, but let's never focus on those to the
neglect of what Jesus has called us to do as disciples,
which is to
Follow him, yeah, to be like him, to do what
he did. I just think it's so important just to
(29:14):
emphasize that we're talking about some of this, you know,
huge world events.
No, I've said that before, that oftentimes you'll walk into
a coffee shop and you'll see Christians gathered debating, you know,
Israel or new earth, old Earth, and all these other things. Meanwhile,
the barista is having a bad day. Wouldn't it be
(29:35):
nice if one of us just walked up to them
and just had a conversation, put our arm around them
and
You know, invited them into a not that conversation necessarily,
but just got to know them, etc. So, yeah, good
stuff today on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number to
call us today. We're gonna be here for another 30
minutes and we would love to hear from you. 888-564-6173.
(30:18):
We're back on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is our number. We've
got Char Broderson and Mike Chaddick here to answer your questions. 888-564-6173.
Looks like you guys wanna keep talking about this, so
we will. David in San Diego listening on the Kwave app.
Thank you for calling in today. How can we help you?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Hey, how are you? Thanks
Speaker 1 (30:41):
for taking my call. You bet.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
I have a question about uh some of the comments
you guys made. Um, I've always been understanding that this
covenant that God made with Abraham was an eternal covenant,
a covenant that would go on forever, an everlasting covenant,
as he says in Genesis 13:15, if that covenant is everlasting,
and if Jesus is gonna fulfill that coven covenant when
(31:04):
he comes back and rules and reigns from Jerusalem, um,
why would we not support
The covenant right now. Now that doesn't mean that we
would say everything Israel does is correct. I agreed with
everything you said there, but my question is, why wouldn't
we honor and support uh this grand plan of salvation
that God has set up with this everlasting covenant? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Yeah, you know, I think sometimes, you know, we take
this promise to Abraham, and we think that it means
the whole nation, but
You know, it's specific in the story, and Paul points
this out in Galatians actually, that the seed that is
being talked about.
is singular, and Paul is at lengths to show this
(31:51):
is talking about Messiah.
So, though we have understood it for so long as
referring to the nation, he says, no, we have realized
that this is actually fulfilled in and through Jesus Messiah.
That's why I was going, you know, at lengths to emphasize,
Jesus is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant.
(32:15):
And now, as Paul, you know, a Jew, a Pharisee,
somebody who is so passionate for the law, understanding of
the Old Testament scriptures, shows us now how Israel is
fulfilled and finds its true identity, meaning and purpose through
Jesus Messiah.
(32:35):
And now Jesus redefined who Israel is. This is what
Paul is talking about in the book of Romans, and
also in Galatians, right? That there is a redefinition of
the people of God and the Israel of God because
Messiah has come. And so that's, I think what Mike
(32:56):
is referring to as well, but that's my stance and
understanding is we aren't supposed to be focusing on the
nation state of Israel, but
Actually, the king of Israel, Jesus, and who identifies with
him and who is part of his kingdom. And even
when we're talking about the fulfillment of these things, I
hope that we're recognizing that that would be a messianic
(33:20):
fulfillment of the promises of God.
And so I think we need to be aware, Mike
and I have addressed this before, we need to be aware,
be aware of this kind of backdoor blessing that is
reserved for Israel outside of Jesus. Remember, Jesus is Yahweh.
So, if Israel is rejecting Yahweh, Mike referenced this earlier, 99% of,
(33:45):
you know, Jews living in the land reject Jesus, who
is Yahweh in the flesh. Yahweh become human, right?
And it sounds like, you know, many times we are
creating this caveat where you can still experience the blessing
and favor of God.
As a nation while simultaneously rejecting God.
(34:09):
So, do you, do you understand what I'm, what I'm
getting at here, maybe pointing out kind of the
Logical fallacy of.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
I do,
Speaker 1 (34:19):
but I
Speaker 2 (34:20):
think that we've left the, the original intent of the
question and gotten off into the weeds. The original intent
of the question was, should we, should we support Israel?
And um, I agree that we don't support them unilaterally
in decisions and moral issues or those kind of things,
(34:40):
but as far as uh upholding the covenant, um, that
God placed upon them, God clearly said that that covenant
was forever.
And my question would be, would be, what did God mean?
Um, in Genesis 13 when he said, I make this
covenant as an everlasting covenant forever. And that wasn't just
one verse. I'm quoting from one verse, but, but he
(35:02):
reiterated that forever covenant many times, um, in Genesis 17
when
Abraham said, what do I have to do to get
this covenant, you know, and the deep sleep falls on Abraham, and,
and God passes through, uh, the, these pieces where he
tells him to separate these animals and this, this souran
(35:24):
treaty that Abraham would have been familiar with. Abraham falls
into a deep sleep and God alone passes through the
covenant is.
Solely conditioned on God's faithfulness, we have a nation that
in its disobedience and rejecting the Messiah, which is why
Jesus wept on Palm Sunday. Nobody's saying that, um, Israel's right.
(35:48):
I mean, there's more atheism there and, and you know, immoral,
all that.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
So then what is, what does support for Israel mean then, David?
Like what do you mean by that? I guess maybe
that would be helpful.
To know
Um,
So if we don't support the government there currently in
their atheism, and they, you know, as Mike said, you know,
they're just very anti Judeo-Christian legislation. What what does it
(36:18):
mean to support them? Like we support them in the
wars that they fight and we say that we're on
their side. I mean, what do we, what does support mean?
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Well, for one thing, when you look at the different
regimes and now we're getting off into, uh, you know,
another topic as well. My, my question was really on
Um, are, are you, as the senior pastor of Calvary
Chapel Costa Mesa capitulating off of the, the covenant with Israel,
but to answer your question, to support what it means
(36:46):
to support them is in this issue even right now
with Iran.
The Islamic Republic of Iran under the Ayatollah regime is
an evil republic. I mean, you look at the genocide
that has come out of them, they're the largest.
Um, terrorist group in the in the world right now,
and they're sponsoring all these different proxies of Hamas and
(37:10):
um
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah, I think, I think you're actually,
Speaker 2 (37:14):
I can,
Speaker 1 (37:15):
if I can just say,
Speaker 2 (37:16):
I think so I think for one thing Char was
interpreting the promise that you keep bringing up in Genesis
to Abraham to what Paul said in Galatians 3, so
I'd recommend go back, look at that, because it sounds
like you're assuming the seed that is to be blessed
and everyone should blessed is the nation of Israel. That's
what it sounds like you're saying, except the only problem
(37:38):
with that is Paul disagrees with you.
In Galatians 3, he said, the seed is not plural,
it is singular, and he's, he's very clear here. It
refers to Christ in and through Christ, all the nations
of the world will be blessed. So that's what Charles
is doing, but that's not what I wanted to address.
You keep bringing up the word forever. I, do you
(38:00):
know what the Hebrew word is for that?
Back to back to the Galatians comment just real quick. Well,
let me, well, no, I, I need to address this
because you keep bringing it up and it hasn't been addressed.
The word is Ola, and if you think that means forever,
that also applies to animal sacrifice. Do you continue to
do animal sacrifices today cause it says Ola forever.
(38:25):
Well, I think in the um millennial kingdom there will
be animal sacrifice. This is the remembrance of Christ. So yes.
So, Christ, the final sacrifice who fulfills it. He's the last,
he is the Passover lamb but you think they're gonna
keep doing animal sacrifices after Jesus has
Set to tell this diet is finished.
In the millennial kingdom, I think there'll be animal sacrifice. OK, well, OK,
(38:49):
do you do animal sacrifices now? No, of course not.
Christ is the, the finished work. OK, but, but how
do you say of course when it says forever?
You need to do these things forever.
In the Torah.
Well, I feel like you're, you're getting argumentative. I don't
think that no, no, not at all. I'm being exegetical.
(39:10):
It literally, here's what I find people don't know, especially
if you haven't studied Hebrew. The word olam sometimes can
be translated forever. It also means in perpetuity, for example.
In the various laws in Exodus and Leviticus, somebody will
become someone's slave, Olam, forever. Does that literally mean an eternity?
(39:31):
We're gonna be the slaves of different people. It says
you will offer these animal sacrifices, you will observe the
various feasts, Olam, forever. What theologians acknowledge.
Scholars of Hebrew, it means in perpetuity. In other words,
as long as the covenant is in effect, these things
will be observed. The point Chahar was making is the
(39:52):
Mosaic covenant, the Abrahammock covenant. Paul would say actually in
2 Corinthians, all the promises of God, by the way,
the word all means all.
are fulfilled in Jesus. They are yes and amen. Paul
says that the seed back in Genesis, that it sounds
like you're thinking, is the ethnic nation of Israel, the
(40:13):
apostle Paul, who was actually a member of ethnic Israel,
said it refers to Christ. So I think there's a
little misunderstanding of what Olam means in Hebrew, and how
it's used regularly throughout the Torah.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
Very good. David, thank you for your phone call today
here on Pastor's Perspective at 888-564-6173. So yeah, our homework
tonight is to read Galatians 3. Let's do it. OK,
so you guys do want to talk about other stuff.
Here's Debbie and Mission Viejo. Welcome to Pastor's Perspective.
All right, thank you so much. Um, there is a
(40:48):
gentleman who's on my, uh, Facebook feed, who keeps popping up,
and he, uh, discusses a lot about creation and how
science backs the Bible. And I find it very interesting,
but the last time I found him on my feed,
he was talking about how important it was for us
to share the good news, share the gospel with others.
(41:11):
And which I totally agree with. But he says if
we neglect to do that, or we don't take the
opportunity to do that, that, um, if that person goes
to hell, it's partially our fault and that we will
have to answer for that on judgment day. And
(41:31):
The red flags started popping up, but I'm thinking, where
in the scriptures would he get this idea? Um, so
I just, I kind of already have a point of
view on how I feel about that, but I just
wanted to get a perspective, uh, from you gentlemen.
All right, Char, we'll start with you.
I mean, yeah, I'm not sure which scripture that he
(41:54):
is referring to. I mean, there are plenty of scriptures.
Right, to talk to us just about the importance of
our faith actually having feet, you know, like that we
walk these things out, that they aren't just words that
we affirm, you know, in our pews, but that we
actually have a living faith and we make known the
(42:17):
kingdom of God. And I, I think, you know, as
we look at the New Testament and especially the story
there in the Gospel in the book of Acts, like
this was just what the Christian community did, right?
The way that they lived was a witness, a testament
to the kingdom of God. The way that they spoke
was they testified to what Jesus had done for them, right?
(42:38):
It was all about God's kingdom, and the word that's
used there in the Greek is that they would almost gossip,
you know, the good news. It was just like, kind
of the word on the street and everybody's talking about
this message about God's kingdom, and it's like no other kingdom,
and
And so it was just part of their life to
proclaim the kingdom of God, both through their words and
through their deeds. And of course, there are many scriptures
(43:00):
that talk about the importance that our deeds match what
we proclaim, and that the day of judgment will reveal
what is genuine or disingenuine.
And I think, if I could, you know, I, I
don't know this guy, I don't know what he says,
but I think sometimes, uh, pastors and maybe evangelists, we
(43:21):
kind of camp out on that day of judgment, and unfortunately,
I think we make it this kind of threat to Christians, and,
you know, kind of try to scare people, it's scared
tactics into evangelism, but I don't, we don't really see
Jesus doing that.
What we see Jesus doing and even the apostles doing,
(43:43):
is they want us to be introspective. They want us
to know that we know that we belong to God.
And so, you know, they give us these tools for examining,
are we really part of God's people? And if we are, well,
there should be this kind of love for God, and
this is what it looks like. There should be this
love of neighbor, and this is what it looks like.
There should be forgiveness, cause God has forgiven us, there
(44:04):
should be peace because God has made peace with us.
So there are these tools for self-examination.
The fruit, we examine that in our lives to know
that we are with Jesus, so that on that day,
you know, John talks about this in his epistle, we
will see him, we will be like him, we will
see him as we as as he is, and everyone
(44:27):
who has his hope within them purifies himself just as
he is pure, right? There's actually an anticipation and an
excitement for the day, not a fear.
And so, uh, you know, I, I am one of
those ones that I wanna lean into that anticipation. I
want to lean into that excitement. And I think the
warnings of scripture are there for those people who feel
(44:51):
that they are safe in the sense of like, well,
I don't really have to do anything, and I don't
really have to abide by that. And, you know, I,
I believed in, cause I said this prayer, and yeah,
of course I trust God, but my life looks this way.
The warnings of scripture are to be applied to them.
And those introspections are tool for them, and these passages
(45:12):
would actually be warning passages for them to motivate them,
if that makes sense. I think we have to be
careful how we use this, and even
The writers of the New Testament talk about this, you know,
we need to discern this stuff. There's some kinds of
people that you want to have a sensitivity because they
have a sensitive conscience and you don't want to come
(45:32):
down heavy-handed. There are other people who are hard-hearted and
they're blind, and you need to be firm with them, like, hey,
you are.
Resisting what the Lord is doing, and if you do
not turn to the Lord, these are the consequences that
are gonna ensue, and you're gonna stand before Christ. And
so I think as pastors and leaders, we need to
discern how to rightly use the word to motivate this
(45:56):
life of faithfully following Jesus. Mike, any thoughts on this
before you make your comment about the previous call, the
other comment you wanted to add?
Speaker 2 (46:05):
No, no, I thought Char wrapped that up very well. Yeah, no,
I just, I just, you know, the thing is, especially
with the whole Israel conversation, we're not speaking into a vacuum, right?
There is all kinds of current event stuff happening right now,
social stuff, political stuff, military stuff, all of that.
And so I recognize, again, as a public communicator, the
(46:27):
goal of communicating well is not simply to say what
I wanna say, although that takes effort, but to anticipate
how people are hearing you. And I think the problem with, like,
even the discussion we're having exegetically, like I hope all
Christians would not be against going back to the Bible
and making sure our interpretations are correct.
So if somebody proposes a system, well, I've always heard that, OK,
(46:48):
but if biblically we go back to the Bible and
find out it's wrong, I hope you don't push back
on that or say, oh, I'm not, I'm not gonna
accept that, or that's bad. Somebody could use the correct
biblical interpretation to do something bad. So hopefully we can
have in in-house, as Christians, conversations about what the Bible says,
always come back to it, be open.
To being corrected by scripture, if we're wrong, but, having
(47:12):
said that, I recognize all kinds of people could be
listening online, on the radio and stuff, and I just
wanna make sure because, obviously, as a Christian,
Anti-Semitism is a sin. It's wrong, because I think some
people get the idea if you don't interpret script scriptures
in such a way that we think Genesis 12 so
(47:33):
applies to this and this and that, and unless you
do that, which is an exegetical question, then you, you
have to let anti-Semitism go and all this.
Absolutely not. That's a false dichotomy. I can absolutely and
have all the tools I need to stand against anti-Semitism.
It is sinful and wrong. On the one hand, we
can say, well, that's true of any people group, right?
(47:53):
We wouldn't want anybody of any ethnicity, uh, being persecuted
and stuff like that. But I will say this, and
I'll make this further point. Obviously, I think many of
us are even more sensitive.
Uh, to guard against anti-Semitism because we live within a
century of the Holocaust, and we've seen the vitriol and
(48:15):
the hate that has come from the world and unfortunately
from some Christian circles, and I think it's just important
that we make a distinction between exegesis of biblical texts
wanting to be faithful to God.
But never saying, even if this interpretation is right, and
the one you previously thought was wrong, whatever, that's never
going to be a case for going for being anti-Semitic
(48:39):
or anything like that or suggesting that Israel doesn't have
a right to exist as a nation today and all
all that kind of stuff.
I think that's clearly wrong. I can stand for that
on a human basis, humanitarian basis, as well as a
Christian ethical moral basis without necessarily betting the farm on
ignoring certain scriptures or twisting them or ignoring the new covenant,
(49:01):
all that kind of stuff. So,
That was kind of my disclaimer. Yeah,
Speaker 1 (49:05):
I got
out there. We've talked about this before, but, you know,
when it comes to nation states and protecting their borders,
and this question right now, you know, of this preemptive
strike that Israel made on Iran, we're talking about warring
nations here, and then we're bringing theology into it and
Old Testament questions, like you said, you know, into these
(49:25):
modern things like we believe that nations have a right
to protect their people.
How they go about doing that. I, I don't what
I was trying to get to earlier, I don't think
it's our responsibility to weigh in every single time on
this was good, this was bad, this is right, this
is wrong, and I think if you're looking for that
kind of, you know, theological backing from scripture, you're not
(49:49):
gonna find it, you know. Well, who does God bless,
you know, when you bomb them? Like, you're not gonna
find that answer in scripture.
God is not for bombing any people, right? And so,
we understand that there are these wars going on there,
but we're unfortunately bringing these theological questions into it and saying, like, basically,
(50:09):
does God condone this? Is God for the bombing of
the Iranian people? I would say no.
Like, are there, is there a part of my brain
that says, do I understand that Israel's government is afraid
of Iran having nuclear weapons? Yes, and preemptively striking them. Yes,
that's what nations do in order to protect their people.
(50:32):
Does God want this?
No, like, read the Bible, God wants peace. God wants
to heal the world of all of these wars and conflicts,
and he's gonna do that one day through Jesus Messiah.
You know, so, again, this stuff is very complicated. There's
(50:53):
so many political layers to it, but I, I just love, Mike,
what you're doing there, like, just bringing us back to like,
the right exeg Jesus helps us land on, we're supposed
to be about Jesus. The Bible is very clear that
all of these things have been fulfilled in and through him,
and so, let's keep our eyes on him.
(51:15):
And let's allow Jesus, his life, his death, his resurrection,
his ascension, his current reigning over all things, his renewal
of all things, to help us interpret how to live
in this world as representatives of Christ.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Well, and to your point, part of the problem with
weighing in, let, let's even hypothetically say it's a Christian
duty to weigh in on every single social political thing
that happens. There's still the question of accuracy of facts,
you know, and I think in the modern world with
the internet, a lot of people believe they've got 100% truth.
From their news source, their web source, it could be,
(51:51):
could be Fox, could be CNN, it could be what,
you know, some aggregate thing could be an underground website,
you know, in somebody's grandma's basement, whatever it is. And people,
I mean, I guess for me, I'm personally more skeptical
of news sources. Again, there's ones I do believe, uh,
I'm not totally agnostic, but I, I, I guess there's
some I believe are more truthful than others, but I,
(52:11):
I don't believe anyone's unbiased. I believe everyone has an
angle of some kind, and I also believe
There's no one that has 100% of the truth all
the time. Uh, the Bible is the only thing I
know that's 100% true, literally, and, and that's the only
thing I know is 100% true. So I think just being,
being humble and cautious in making
(52:35):
Weighty moral judgments on things that personally, you actually have
no real firsthand knowledge. We're just going off of whatever
we're being fed. And if you're a conservative, obviously, you
feel like you're conservative news source is pretty accurate. If
you're a liberal, you feel like your liberal news source
is accurate, and I feel like both of them are
actually kind of wrong in the sense they're trusting way
too much in what's just being spoon fed to people.
(52:57):
So I think just being careful about that in general
is an important thing to do as well.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
So we had a caller who said that she agreed
with David, the person who called in and everything he said, yeah,
and she said that she thinks Pastor Chuck Smith would
agree with David. What do you think?
Well, he's not here for us to ask him, so.
(53:25):
Yeah, and I think Chuck probably sees things clearly now,
you know, my grandpa, he had a lot of opinions,
but I know this, that he was always, uh, trying
to subject his opinion to scripture. And I know that
he believed that Jesus was the fulfillment of Israel. I
know that. Um, I heard him preach many, many times
(53:48):
said under his teaching, and so I know that he
agrees with Mike and I on.
Uh, the exegesis of Genesis and Galatians.
And yet, you know, my grandpa was, yeah, very, uh,
he had such a, a heart for uh the Jewish
people and for the land of Israel and went there many,
many times, and he had many, many friendships there. And
(54:10):
yet he did not, you know, support everything that Israel did.
You know, my grandpa used his mind and he used
the scripture to discern those things. So, yeah, and again,
he's not here for us to ask specifically.
You know, if he would have, if he gives, you know,
today the modern Israelites full support. Yeah, Mike.
Speaker 2 (54:29):
And and again, as great as someone was, whether it's
Pastor Chuck in our lifetime or, uh, Martin Luther or
a Charles Spurgeon, whoever, to be honest, if you're a
Protestant evangelical, it comes down to the Bible and you
know what, great men, great and wonderful men, Christian men,
Christian women.
can be mistaken. So at the end of the day,
it's always what does the Bible say? And if the
(54:51):
Bible says, inspired by the Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul,
that the seed is singular and it's Christ, I'm not
gonna try to find ways to argue out of that.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
Very good, man. What a program. It's gonna be archived
a little bit later on if you want to hear
it again. Thank you so much for all of you
who participated. We will be back tomorrow between 3 and
40 p.m. Pacific time. If we didn't get to your
call today, please try again tomorrow. For Char Broderson and
Mike Chattick, I'm Brian Perez, and thank you so much
for listening and watching Pastor's Perspective.
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