June 27, 2025 • 56 mins
Pastors' Perspective is a one-hour call-in program where listeners can call in and get answers to questions about the Bible, Christianity, family, and life. The program is live Monday through Friday from 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM Pacific. You can call 888-564-6173 to ask your questions.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:17):
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez.
It's Wednesday and we are here live until 4 o'clock
today to answer the questions you have about the Bible,
the Christian faith, just about anything that's on your mind.
Give us a call at 888-564-6173. If you're watching on Facebook,
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(00:39):
or Instagram. You can call us too.
Numbers right there on the bottom of your screen, 888-564-6173,
or you can scan that QR code there on the
bottom right, and that'll take you right to the pastor's
perspective page on Kwave.com, where you can submit your question.
You can also submit your question using the pastor's perspective
Facebook Messenger or by DMing us on the pastor.
(01:02):
perspective, Instagram. But the best way to get an answer
is to call us when we're here, like today till
4 o'clock at 888-564-6173. We've got Char Broderson, the lead
pastor of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, joining us today. Yes,
it's Wednesday. He's normally only here on Mondays, but he's
here today. Thank you, Char,
Speaker 2 (01:20):
for coming in. I was
an accident. I just walked in.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
And you said, hey, do you need anybody? I
Speaker 2 (01:24):
said, oh, who's sitting in that chair?
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yes. And Dave Keene is here too. We've had him
on before. He's a professor at Byola University. He's also
a teaching pastor at Cornerstone Church, Cornerstone Community Church in
San Clementi. Welcome back, Dave. Thank you. It's always a
pleasure to be here. Yeah, it's good to have you here.
So you guys haven't met prior to today. So Char
tell Dave something about you and Dave tell Char something
(01:48):
about
Speaker 2 (01:48):
you. Oh wow, um,
Speaker 1 (01:50):
that's how we do introduction. That's my lazy way of
Speaker 2 (01:52):
like tattoos, so.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I could, I could see that we have something in common.
There we go. My, uh, claim to fame at Viola
is I'm the first Bible prof with a full sleeve
of tattoos.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
So there you go. That's a pretty good claim to
fame.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
I did, uh, wait to make sure I had tenure
first before, uh, before I started this process.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
I'm so dummy. Yeah,
that's great. Too cool.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
All right, 888-564-6173 is our number and as I said,
you can send in your questions online too. Here's one
that Paul sent in.
A pastor friend of mine is convinced that the majority
of American churches are not preaching the true gospel. He
claims that the gospel is being presented as a ticket
out of hell and a ticket into heaven, but nothing
(02:33):
is being presented to encourage people to live for Jesus
and to show His love to others. Do you believe
that most churches are preaching a gospel that is just
about getting into heaven? Has there been any research concerning
this matter? Sure.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Yeah, I mean, you can, there's definitely research that is
done concerning this matter. Um, and I mean, yeah, I mean,
I imagine Barna has done quite some extensive work on this. Yeah,
you know, there's one of those questions where I don't know,
I think, I often think like faithfulness never makes the headlines.
(03:07):
And, you know, what you're going to see on the internet,
you know, sometimes is clickbait, you know, so it's gonna be,
you know, this pastor said this and it's, you know,
off doctrinally, it's heretical, whatever it might be, you know,
that's the stuff that people are going to click and
they're gonna want to see and the stuff that people
are gonna want to talk about. But unfortunately, you know,
the churches that are just faithfully preaching the gospel and
(03:28):
what we would say is, you know, the reign of God,
allegiance to Jesus, the king, following in the way of Jesus,
loving their neighbors, doing mercy and justice.
You know, that kind of work is not gonna make
the headlines, you know, people don't, they overlook that kind
of stuff. And then I think sometimes too, like, you know,
we can kind of try to define ourselves by what
we're not, you know, and so we can kind of
(03:49):
throw stones at other churches and compare, you know that. Well,
we're really, you know, the church that's teaching the truth
and who knows what that church over there is doing,
and I think we just need to be careful about
that stuff. I think we can talk about cultural, um,
you know, the
Culture of discipleship in the church, and um the need
to always be, you know, self-reflective um are we walking
(04:12):
in the way of Jesus, you know, think about the
letters to the churches, the book of Revelation, how Christ
is commending and yet he's saying, hey, and these are
the things that I have against you. And so he's
wanting to correct, bring us into line with him, or Paul,
you know, he wants to bring us into line with
the way of the spirit. And so, you know, I,
I hope that each church community is doing that.
As being introspective, self-reflective about, you know, what are the
(04:37):
areas that we need to refine and, you know, come into, um,
Yeah, agreement with the way of Jesus and the work
of the spirit. So, Dave, I mean, what do you think?
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Yeah, the, the latest Barna study that you kind of
maybe decided the state of the church just came out
in earlier this year that is looking at a renewed trend.
That has Gen Zs kind of really turning to Jesus
and and I think that language that Dave Kinnaman, who
um does a lot of work with us at Viola
(05:11):
sites is
The turn to Jesus because it's not so much just,
you know, you see a return to church. You see
people really wanting to know Jesus and making equipment to
Jesus and I think the more we keep focused people,
how do we follow Jesus, how do we obey Jesus,
that's where we're gonna get more people into the, into
the true nature of what it means to be a
(05:32):
follower of Jesus, not just a ticket to heaven, that's punch,
but actually like.
I'm obeying Jesus with my lifestyle and my with my beliefs.
And so I think there's a lot there. I know
our dean at Stetzer at Talbot has been going across
the country in the lead the way tour for Talbot
Seminary and basically talking about these ideas about there's been
a renewed interest in the gospel, um, across the country. Yeah,
Speaker 2 (05:56):
it's so exciting. I love that too. Like, we're not
talking about church, we're talking about discipleship in the way
of Jesus, which is.
So refreshing. We're actually teaching through the Gospel of Mark
on Sunday mornings here at Calvary, and just showing like, look,
Jesus actually came to dismantle this system that was keeping
people out was so, you know, prejudiced and xenophobic, and
(06:18):
he came to dismantle this, and he said, I'm, I'm
showing you the way, you know, Mark's theme of the way,
Luke's theme of the way, John's theme. So, yeah, it's
just so refreshing. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Paul, thank you for sending in your question through the
Kwave.com pastor's perspective page. And let's do one more before
we go to the phones. Joseph, you'll be first up. Michelle.
She wants to know, uh, she says, I'm a Christian.
I firmly believe that Jesus is God, as the Bible
clearly states over and over again in many different ways.
But in Genesis 1:26, God says to make man in
(06:52):
our image. And John also tells us that Jesus is
the word, and the Word was with God. I completely
understand how God created Himself.
In the form of a man and put Jesus on
earth with a body, but I'm confused about how Jesus
is even considered to be God in the form of
a man if he already existed in his own spirit
from the beginning. This leads me to believe that even
(07:15):
from the beginning, God and Jesus were two separate spirits.
So I guess my question is, despite what I truly
believe and know.
That Jesus is God. How can Jesus be God if
they are two separate spirits and identities from the very beginning?
Please help me understand this and ease my mind about
this confusion. Please help me to answer this question in conversations,
(07:36):
especially with Jehovah's Witnesses. Char, what do you say to
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Michelle? Yeah, I think many, here's, here's one thing I
think we just need to be clear about.
That we don't necessarily understand or wrap our minds around
the nature of God as Trinitarian, but we accept it as, uh,
you know, revelation from God. And what the scripture is
saying is not that there are three different um gods,
(08:02):
but that God Himself is um communal, that there is
within the Godhead, Father, son, and spirit. And so,
Even, you know, and some of these things, you know,
are just, when we just think about them logically within
the narrative of scripture, it's like, oh, OK, you know,
all the ways in which the spirit of God is
(08:25):
referred to as God, or it could be referred to
as the spirit of Jesus, the way that the spirit
shares divine attributes with Yahweh, the way that Jesus shares
divine attributes with Yahweh. They are all worship, they all
share these attributes. So we see these things, even though,
you know, the scripture doesn't say,
You know, Jesus is God, like right on the nose,
(08:47):
the way that you maybe the Jehovah's Witness want us
to produce, you know, or maybe the Mormons want us
to produce.
And yet, if you have eyes to see, it really
is everywhere. You know, I just mentioned a moment ago
today that we're teaching through the Gospel of Mark on
Sunday mornings, and it's incredible to see the way that
Mark is actually developing Yahweh's second exodus that he will perform,
(09:11):
that these are all the things that Jesus himself is doing.
He is identifying himself with Yahweh, who will
Come, who will regather his people, he will heal the blind,
he will heal the deaf, and he will bring them
onto the highway of holiness. These are things that see
that Yahweh will do, and Jesus is the one that
(09:32):
is doing them, and he's receiving worship, he's receiving declarations
about his identity. And so we could talk, you know,
about so many scriptures, we haven't even mentioned the Gospel
of John yet.
But I think just taking us back to the beginning,
just for a moment, right, when God says, you know, come,
let us make mankind in our image, male and female
(09:53):
is what he creates. And so when God creates humanity
in his image, he creates two, not singular, not one,
and there is within humanity, right, relationship and dynamic and dynamics,
excuse me, it's not static.
And so we should understand even from the creation of
humanity that God Himself, what it means to bear his
(10:14):
image is to be a communal being.
And so God creates us after Himself, who is a community,
and I could go on and on, but, you know, Dave,
Speaker 1 (10:28):
I think the reality is that our minds will never
be at ease because our minds can't fully comprehend a
triune God, one God in three unique persons, not separate
entities altogether, but one God.
And so there's no perfect analogy that relates to the Trinity,
(10:50):
and therefore we do take this on faith that we
have one God in these three persons. And I think
one of the greatest stories from the Gospel, John, that
sets up our confidence that Jesus is the true God
as as working out the will of His Father even
(11:10):
on earth.
It's actually in John 10, and it's, it, it's the
head of when the Jews, uh, are just in rebellion
against Jesus and pushing back and he's done these miracles and, and,
and the Jews actually just come flat and ask him,
how long are you gonna keep in the suspense? Tell us,
are you the Christ, right? Just tell us, are you
(11:31):
the one we've been waiting for? And he's like, I've
done all these miracles and you don't believe. And, and
he basically says, those who are my father are mine
and
And he makes that famous statement in John 10:30 that
I and the Father are one. And yes, our Joe
and his friends are going to take that as being
like they're unified, they're on the same team, but the
(11:52):
Jews knew exactly what he was saying because they picked
up stones to stone him and he's like, why are
you gonna stone me? He's like, What miracle? And they say,
because you
A mere man claimed to be God and the Greek
word they used their theos, which is used only for
the one true God. And so the Jews knew exactly
who Jesus was claiming to be as. He wasn't just
(12:15):
a god, he wasn't just the spirit of God. He
was God. And, and that was where they just said
we're done with you.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Um, I'm trying to remember the book, I think it's
um
Gosh, it's not Larry Hurtado, can't remember who it is,
but uh the book's called the oh, it's Richard Bham,
the crucified God, and he talks about how, um, you know,
Jewish monotheism included a Trinitarianism within it, and he points
out how, I think it's both in First Corinthians, Paul
(12:43):
quotes the shama.
And he includes Jesus as Lord in that statement, and
he doesn't bat an eye, doesn't even unpack it for
the Corinthians, it just is. And also, when, you know,
when we consider, you know, we read Philippians too, and
we think, oh wow, this, this is really cool thing,
you know, Jesus went on this journey of humility, you know,
(13:03):
he wasn't with God in the form of God, but
then he went on this journey of humility, you know,
to the point of death, and death on the cross.
Therefore God's highly exaltedative given him.
Uh, the name which is above every name, and we're like,
that's cool, Jesus is gonna get a new name, and
we don't recognize, cause maybe we don't know our Jewish scriptures,
that the name is Yashem. It's the, the, you know,
(13:24):
the Jews would not say the name of God, so
they would only refer to him as the name, and
he is the name that is above every name. And
so what Paul is showing there is that Jesus Christ
shares in the very name of God.
I mean, this is just astounding stuff that Paul is
just unpacking for us, you know, here. And so again,
You know, I, I think the problem is scripture doesn't
(13:47):
You know, if we don't know our Bibles, and we
don't understand the historical context of these things, you know,
and what these things meant to the original hearers, you know,
we're like, oh, he doesn't say he's got, you know,
he says he's one, and husbands and wives are one,
like you said, Dave, you know, and so I think
the unfortunate thing is that we're forcing our cultural context
and the way that we use language upon the scriptures,
(14:08):
and therefore we're blind.
To the blatant stuff that Jesus is saying here, and I,
I was just thinking as you were saying it, David,
it's profound that they're like, tell us plainly if you're
the Christ, and he goes one better, right? He's like, uh, yeah,
but you don't even get it. I'm more than that,
you know, I am Yahweh here presently. It's just astounding.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Michelle, thank you for sending in your question from Riverside.
888-564-6173 is our number, and we're going to go to
the phones now. Here is Joseph, also in Riverside. Welcome
to Pastor's Perspective.
Hey everyone, how's it going? Good, how are you?
Good.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Um, so can I just ask my question? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
OK,
Speaker 2 (14:54):
so, um, I was doing work at a monastery today,
a Catholic one, and
I didn't think I was gonna get called to go there. Um,
I grew up Catholic and stuff like that, and, you know,
I started evangelizing and stuff. So anyway, um,
Speaker 1 (15:10):
I started talking to these guys about my testimony and
to the point that we had talked about the differences
in the Catholic and Christian Bible, and I got corrected,
and he pointed me to.
Yeah, um,
OK.
You still there, Joseph? I think we lost you.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
What is the difference
between the Catholic and Christian
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Bible? What is the difference? Well, just, yeah, that, that
your phone is cutting out. So Dave, what's the difference
between the Christian and the Catholic Bible?
To the best of my knowledge, I was never Catholic,
but that the Catholic Bible includes the apocrypha, which existed
um in the time of Jesus, actually, there are Jewish
(15:56):
historical writings that were translated and actually included in the
Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, which we call the Septuagate.
But we don't equate the apocrypha with the Jewish can.
In other words, they were books that were added on
and included more for historical reference, um, and I think
(16:17):
they're included this so they didn't lose that historical reference, not,
not because they had some significant teaching in them, but
they're more just the, these are the things that are
happening in Israel in that gap period when God was silent.
And so that there are definite certain
Uh, denominations, Catholicism, and other eastern, uh, denominations that hold
(16:39):
on to those teachings, but we do not equate them
to be the same level of
Canon authority as we would, um, the 66 books of
the Old Testament and New Testament Bible, but to my knowledge,
the apocrypha is the main difference in uh in what
we would have together.
(16:59):
Any thoughts from you,
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Char? Yeah, no, Dave's right. Um, yeah, I mean, so
we've got historical books, uh, within the Apocrypha, you think
about like the Maccabees and it's the history of the
Uh, Maccabean revolt against the Seleucid Empire, and so, I mean,
there's just some incredible Jewish history that's there, that's referenced
later by Josephus and things like that. Um, it's really interesting,
you know, again, referencing, uh, teaching through the Gospel of Mark,
(17:24):
even the book of Jubilees, uh, you know, I've been
reading through that. It is so helpful for understanding.
The Jewish mindset concerning the Gentiles at that time. And
so you really get like a deeper insight to like,
like what's the big deal here? Like, why are they
treating Jesus this way? He's just helping people, you know, yeah,
they're Gentiles, but what's the problem? Why, you know, why
(17:44):
are they so concerned about the washing of hands and,
and you realize, you know, how the religion
Religious leaders had taken on the tradition of the elders
and were actually forcing Israel to practice Levitical like cleanliness
with washings and ceremonies and all these things. And the
idea in their mind is that if we keep Levitical righteousness,
(18:07):
then the kingdom will come, then Messiah will appear. And
so they're so strict concerning these things. This is all
to do with questions of fasting that Jesus has asked
about washing of hands, um,
You know, coming from the marketplace, and these things are
happening again and again and then and again, and in
the book of Jubilees, I mean, there's this retelling of
(18:27):
the story of Dinah.
And the application is, if any Jewish family were to
marry a Gentile, even a converted gentile, they would be
burned to death or stoned to death. I've got, I
was quoting it just two weeks ago, and I was
just blown away by, you know, the, basically, you know,
(18:48):
the stance of these religious leaders at the time. So,
all that to say,
Some of this can be so incredibly helpful for understanding
cultural context. But again, like Dave said, we don't take
this as scripture. We would use this in the same
way that we would use, you know, kind of like
a um
A Bible commentary, you know, a contextual commentary, just like, OK,
(19:09):
this is what people believed at that time, these are
the practices of the day, super helpful, not authoritative for salvation,
for following in the way of Jesus or any of
those things. So, can be really helpful, um, and yeah,
it probably be good for Christians to read those and
uh chew the meat, spit out the bones.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
What do you think, Joseph?
Oh, that
Speaker 2 (19:33):
was
Speaker 1 (19:33):
pretty
Speaker 2 (19:33):
good.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Um, I guess if I could ask a follow-up question,
why isn't it
Speaker 2 (19:39):
authoritative?
Yeah, I mean, one of the reasons why Christians
Um, do not believe that it's authoritative is because uh
the Jews themselves did not believe that it was authoritative.
The canon was already closed.
Uh, and it's actually only included, as Dave said, in
the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament. So,
(20:00):
the Jews themselves did not accept these as authoritative, inspired
by God, uh, but they were their books, historical books,
and some of them have some heavy Greek influence in
them as well, and so, you know, the Hellenistic influence
in them. Um, but another reason why we as Christians
do not accept them is because Jesus himself quotes from
(20:21):
I believe almost every single Old Testament book in his ministry,
he never quotes from the Apocrypha. Hm.
And the Jewish writers, as far, or excuse me, the
New Testament writers, as far as I know, I mean,
I'm thinking maybe of Jude, quoting from the book of Enoch,
is the one exception we even have in the New
Testament to anybody quoting from the apocrypha. And so, uh,
(20:46):
it does not seem that any of the early church
considered that this was canon either.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah, the early church actually didn't even have a complete
set of what we have today of the apocrypha. So
it was still, uh, it was still in process of
how they're collecting the different codics, um, you know, it
wasn't together like the Old Testament canon was that
That Jesus and his disciples could reference when they talked
(21:11):
about the scriptures. They never were referencing the, the apocrypha.
It was always the prophets or the law that Jesus
used to explain the Messiah and who he was when
he would claim the scriptures, what makes you wise to salvation.
Very good, Joseph, thank you for your phone call today
on Pastor's Perspective. And now here's Tony calling in from Rialto.
(21:34):
I need you to turn down your radio please, Tony,
because I don't want to hear myself talking back to myself.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
What's your question, Brian? What?
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Tony, go for it.
Go for it.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
OK. How are
Speaker 1 (21:46):
you doing,
Speaker 2 (21:47):
pastors? Doing all right. Excellent show. Uh, I kinda caught everything, uh,
kind of late, but, uh, my question for you all,
you know, you hear a lot of people, and I
run into a lot of people, a lot of times
they say, you know, you have to keep the commandments,
you know, and I know, uh, uh, so what I
wanted to ask you all, what would be your perspective
(22:07):
on that because when I, I try to explain that.
When he says, you know, to keep the commandments, I
know the 10 Commandments are set up for, you know,
our moral laws and how we should live, but I
know that, uh, uh, this is just my perspective, and
I want to hear you all that when he says
that for me, I look at it that he's saying
we're under grace now.
(22:28):
And it should be a thing of, you know, we
should supersede that law in a sense by love now.
So it's not that we are commanded to do this,
it's like we choose to do these things now because, uh,
laws are like uh stipulations and you know it comes to,
you know, this is what you have to do when
(22:48):
you come to a stop.
I stopped because the law says, but I stopped because
I want to, because grace says. And so I just
wanted to hear you all's perspective on how you would
answer that when people say, Well, you had to keep God's,
you know, the commandments, you know, and I know he
says by the law no no flesh shall be justified.
So what would be your take on this? Oh. Yeah,
(23:10):
great question, Tony, just.
Yeah, I mean, I guess the bigger question is what
is uh a Christian's relationship to the law of Moses?
And I think we need to remember that the law
of Moses containing commandments and holidays, traditions, principles in it
was given to Israel, and this was given to them,
(23:30):
you know, as their religious law, their judicial law, their culture, right?
This is what God is presenting to them, um, and yet,
The law of Moses also represents, as you said, you know,
especially there in the 10 Commandments, the heart of God,
the bedrock of society, and God does this, I, you know,
I love this passage where God says, when you live
(23:51):
like this,
The nations around you are actually gonna say, what other
peoples like these people? They are so righteous in the
way that they live with one another, you know, the
way they take care of the poor, and, you know,
cause all these social justices are, you know, sown through
the fabric of this, how we treat our neighbor, how
we forgive sins and debts, and all these kinds of things.
The nations are gonna look at that and be drawn
(24:12):
to know the God that gave these laws, the God
that lives in the midst of these people. And so
I think we have to, you know, kind of put
ourselves in in that perspective and understand what it meant
for them.
And then understand where we are at now in the story.
So we understand, as you said, that Jesus has come,
and he is the fulfillment of the law. And I
(24:34):
think NT Wright has helped me better than any one
else articulate, that the law isn't bad, it is a
sign pointing to something.
And that something is the person of Jesus Christ. And
so when Jesus in the sermon on the Mountain was
talking about that he did not come to abolish the
law or the prophets, he has come to fulfill them,
(24:56):
to fill them up, to complete them, we should understand
that Jesus is the thing that they are all pointing to.
And so once you've arrived at Jesus, the thing that
all the signs are pointing to,
You neither despise the signs, nor do you go back
to them and say, oh, sign, let me thank you.
(25:16):
Let me just sit here and and ponder you, right? No,
you've arrived, and so, you know, stick with Jesus, and
I love what Paul the Apostle is doing, right? He
is showing is that Jesus, as you said, you know,
has given us a new commandment.
And that is to love our neighbor as ourself. First
of all, to love God supremely, to love our neighbor
as ourself. And Paul writes there in Romans, and then
(25:39):
he also alludes to this in Galatians as well, that
to love our neighbor as ourself actually fulfills the whole law.
It actually goes, it, it encapsulates all that the law
was after, and as Paul says,
Something even better happens now. The spirit of God comes
into us as individual, and as individuals and teaches us
(26:01):
to follow God's law from our hearts.
Because you've probably noticed this in your life, as I have,
sometimes there just isn't an answer or a law for
the right thing to do in my life. So what
do I do? Well, Jesus said, consult your own conscience,
you know, um, what would you want somebody else to
(26:23):
do for you, right? What does it mean to
Love someone. When someone does evil to you, what does
it mean to do something that is outstanding and surprises
the world around you? What does it mean to love
faithfully like Yahweh? What does it mean to be a peacemaker, right?
These are the things that we have to consider in
our own lives and our own context, and this is
(26:44):
actually how the law of the new
Covenant works, right? The spirit working in and through us
in our context, my life, my relationships, and like you said,
it actually does better than the law ever could have imagined.
Dave
Speaker 1 (27:00):
King.
You know, I think just two thoughts to add on, um, one,
When Jesus was here, not only did he fulfill the law,
but he also said,
You know, you've heard it said, but I tell you,
Jesus actually raised the standard for us to, to not
just get at the specific letter, but get to the
(27:22):
heart of the spirit that he wanted us to live out.
Then he also said, if you love me, you'll keep
my commandments. And so Jesus took the idea of obeying.
The teachings of him and obviously he was reflecting the
teachings of the law and the prophets before him as
as a relational response. So no longer was it just legalistic,
(27:43):
but now it actually was the because I believe who
Jesus is, because I love him, I'm going to obey
these commands. And so, um, that becomes my now motivation
in the process. Very good, Tony, hope that helps. Thanks
for calling in today. All right, man?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Hey man, I appreciate you all. You'll be blessed. Thank you. Yeah,
bless you too.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
888-564-6173 is our number, and it's just about break time,
so we'll wait till we come back to take another call.
888-564-6173 is our number, and we've got Char Broderson, the
lead pastor of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, in the studio.
You can find out more about Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa
at CCCM.com. Sunday morning services are at 8:30 and 11. Again, CCCM.com,
(28:28):
and Dave Keen is here too. He's one of the professors.
at Biola University, and he's also a teaching pastor at
Cornerstone Community Church in San Clemente. Find out more about
that church at cornerstoneOnline.org. What time are your services at? Uh,
9 and 10:45.9 and 10:45. Very cool. All right. So
check that out. If you're looking for a church in
(28:49):
that area, cornerstoneline.org. 888-564-6173 is the number to call. We
can't wait to hear from you. Who do we have
coming up? We've got Pebbles.
We've got Andrew, we've got Thomas, and we're waiting for
you to call 888-564-6173. Remember, you can send in your
questions online too using the Pastor's perspective Facebook Messenger, or
(29:12):
you can DM us on the pastor's perspective Instagram, or
you can go to Kwave.com and look for the pastor's
perspective page, fill out the form, and that gets your
question to us. But the best way to get an
answer is to call 888-564-6173. We shall return.
(30:18):
Hey, we're back on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number
to call. My name is Brian Perez. Char Broderson and
Dave Keene are here to answer your questions for the
next 25 minutes. 888-564-6173. Ready for another round, guys?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Here we go.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Let's do it. Pebbles and Riverside, welcome to Pastor's Perspective.
Hi, hi. OK,
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I have a question. Are
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Christians gonna be in the tribulation, or are they gonna
be raptured before then?
What do you think, Dave?
I definitely believe that um scripture presents a couple different
Readings, in other words, I, I believe there's Christians who
(31:08):
study scripture and believe wholeheartedly that the church will be
taken out before the tribulation, but I also believe there
are Christians who read the same scriptures and see that
Christians will come to a point of suffering and definitely
I think there are seasons of the early church that
resembled what the tribulation is. Uh, personally, I think that, uh,
(31:30):
scripture leans on the side at
That the Holy Spirit and the church are gonna be
removed from physically being present to allow the evil one
to reign as much as he will, but I do
believe there will be people that come to faith during
the tribulation that will
Become, you know, Christians here on Earth during that time.
So I'm definitely not the expert in that one.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Yeah, I mean, it, I, I love that you pointed out, Dave.
I mean, this is one of those areas of scripture
that just really isn't clear, right? And so we, you know,
it's an open-handed issue. It's something that we debate, you know,
it's kind of a a family issue, we debate it
in the house, but this is not what we want
to be known for, you know, like,
Well, what's your view, you know, well, those people, you know,
(32:12):
we reject them because their views different, you know, we
want to be known for our love, we want to
be known for, you know, standing on the tenants of
the faith, you know, like what the apostles creed proclaims. Um,
and so, the one of the reasons I want to
bring up for, I think just some of the confusion is, um,
some take the thief in the night passages as passages, um,
(32:37):
that are talking about.
The rapture. But the interesting thing is when you look
at these, they seem to be speaking actually of taken
away in judgment. And so again, that there's, you know,
the jury isn't out on this one. What are these
passages about? Are they about judgment, or are they about salvation,
you know, being pulled out of these um trying
(32:59):
Um, tribulations in these troubles. I think one thing that
we just need to be aware of, and I'm glad
that they brought this up, we need to be aware
of a Christianity that is devoid of suffering, right? Or
if we suffer, then it means that this thing isn't,
you know, uh, you know, this is a whole crock, right?
Because the way of Jesus is the way of the cross.
(33:20):
It's the way of suffering. It is a way of rejection,
it's a way
Um, of death. And so, you know, if our whole
basis for believing in a pre-tribulational rapture is because we
believe that God, you know, doesn't allow us to suffer,
then we need to read the Bible again, you know,
the Bible is actually from cover to cover, you know,
(33:40):
is filled with suffering of righteous people, and yet God's commitment.
Faithful love to them. So I think those are just
things that we need to be aware of. Now, when it, uh,
just one more thing, when it does come to, you know,
there's one passage in scripture that seems to be kind
of the linchpin for pre-tribulational views, and that is a
(34:02):
passage in First Corinthians where Paul is talking about those
who have, uh, died, who were believers in Jesus Christ,
and he talks about
You know, how they're not gone forever, no, no, they're
with Jesus currently, and when Jesus returns, he says, we
will be caught up, um, rapturros is the term there, uh,
we will be caught up to meet the Lord in
(34:23):
the air, and we will then forever be with the Lord.
And so the question people have is, is this the rapture,
the catching up, the taking away from the tribulation that's happening,
or is this like what happened in the Greco-Roman context,
when the king returned uh to inherit his kingdom.
(34:44):
Uh, you know, or a victor, you know, return from battle,
the people would go out of the city, and they
would usher in the king and the reign. And so some,
you know, reading ancient biblical context would say, actually, this
is what's happening in this passage. Paul's talking about how
we're gonna receive Christ and the saints, and we're gonna
come in, you know, and and
(35:05):
Receive the kingdom of God there and then. So again,
these are just kind of the differing opinions on this stuff,
and this is fun stuff to talk about and wonder and,
you know, reference different passages, but it's not something that
we divide over. And
Speaker 1 (35:17):
I
think we don't do ourselves a service when we think
of the end times as a sequential countdown and we
check off every war and rumor of of war as
this is the end times, and I think
When Christ was telling us about those signs, it was,
there were wars and rumors of wars already, and his
(35:37):
point was, live faithfully and ready that I could come
at any time. So that really is where our mindset
should be. It it shouldn't be focused on
You know, how close to the end times are we?
It should be like, I want to be faithful every day,
and I want to live expecting Jews to return every day.
And so I'm in this now, but not yet. I'm
(35:59):
in this sense of just being faithful to do what
God's called me to do now. Looking forward to that day,
he returns. And, and unfortunately, as I read, especially First Peter,
there's a lot of suffering that we're called to endure
along the way.
Pebbles, thank you for your phone call today on Pastor's Perspective.
And now let's go to Cyprus. Here is Andrew. Thanks, Andrew,
(36:21):
for calling
Speaker 2 (36:21):
888-564-6173.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
You're on with Char Broderson and Dave Keene.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Hey, how's it going? Good afternoon. I just had a
general question about um.
How do I put this? Um, if Jesus actually spoke
of supporting sacrificing animals, and then specifically, I wanted to
focus on the temple. Uh, the big speech in the
temple is, uh, he talks about the money, but I
(36:52):
would love to you, for you guys to address the temple,
if I'm not mistaken. The temple itself was supporting.
A quarter of a million sacrifices of animals, and there
were the blood canals, things like that. I would love
for you to address that if that's true historically for
the temple. And then if that's true, of course, then
(37:13):
it would be Jesus speaking about the sacrificing of the animals,
not the money.
Hm. Yeah. I mean the anger. Yeah, Andrew, I think that,
you know, an interesting thing here is, you know, when
Jesus comes to Israel, is he is not actually critical
of the sacrificial system, because this is a system that he, Yahweh,
(37:37):
in the flesh actually gave to the people of Israel.
What he is criticizing is the way that they have
corrupted it, and they have made
Um, this space in the temple that actually was to
bring the Gentiles in, they've filled it and made it
basically a moneymaker, and they've actually made no room for
the Gentiles, um, to actually be present, worshiping and knowing
(38:02):
the one true God. So this is what Jesus is
criticizing in these moments there, um, at the temple, and
it's not the sacrificial system. That would be very, um,
You know, mixed signals that God is giving, you know,
and remember, uh, maybe if you were listening earlier in
the show, we, we pointed out that in the sermon
on the Mount, you know, there's a lot of confusion about, OK,
(38:23):
who is this rabbi? What's he doing? You know, is
he just, you know, throwing out the whole Jewish system?
And Jesus says, hey, some of you are thinking that
here I am to throw out the whole Jewish system.
I'm not, I am here to fulfill it. And so,
Remember, Jesus is called by John, the Lamb of God
who takes away the sin of the world, and all
of this is being set up in the biblical story,
(38:44):
going back to Genesis 22, about this lamb that will
be provided by God for sacrifice, um.
Later in Exodus, about the Passover lamb, whose blood will
protect God's people from the angel of death, and, you know, who's,
you know, they are to eat completely, to consume it completely,
(39:08):
it's supposed to give them, you know, energy as they
exit out of Egypt. So, all of this is set
up in the biblical narrative, all pointing to what Jesus
would do on
The cross. And so we believe as Christians, that that
need for sacrifice was ultimately fulfilled through Jesus Christ. So
(39:28):
we don't practice animal sacrifice, that's done now, because it's
been fulfilled by Jesus, but Jesus wasn't here to criticize,
you know, the actual animal sacrifices.
And you had a question about, I think, you know,
did Jesus eat meat? Well, we know that he at
least ate fish. That's what we know. So, there isn't
(39:50):
a mention of anything else. I would say this though,
being a good Jewish boy who kept the law perfectly,
we believe, he would have observed Passover, and it was
required that every family have a lamb for themselves, and
the whole family was to consume it. And so,
Uh, we believe, according to Jewish tradition that also Jesus
(40:11):
would have eaten lamb, and he lived like a, you know,
normal Jew of his day.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
You know, you, you talk about the temple episode there, Andrew,
and you could see a theme throughout the ministry of
Jesus that he is most righteously angry at those who
hindered others from coming to faith.
You know, the, the, the legalistic system of the Pharisees,
(40:37):
those who would tempt children and lead them astray. In
other words, these money changers now in the temple were
making people bring their money in and collect it or
change it into a temple coin, just adding on another
burden upon the people. And so what we're seeing here
is Jesus is really, I think, more upset at
(40:58):
The hindrance of peoples, the Gentiles, especially in this case,
from not being able to worship God. And I think
that's why he has this righteous anger.
What do you think, Andrew?
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Oh, so my, my original question, I love all that,
but I would love for you to answer this. How
would Jesus sacrifice an animal?
He wouldn't. He wasn't a Levite.
OK, so if he wouldn't sacrifice an animal, then, um,
And you were saying that animal sacrifice doesn't happen. 3
to 4 billion animals are killed, killed every year for
(41:33):
consumption on Earth right now. I wanted to, I want
to listen to that. I, I, I think you misunderstood
what I meant. I meant we as Christians don't.
You recognize, you know, a, a sacrificial system with the
need for animal sacrifice. I wasn't, you know, refuting the
fact that we still consume animals allow you to, you
can answer however you want when you, when I get
(41:54):
off the air as far as how Jesus would sacrifice
in detail. And if he said he wouldn't, then that's
a whole another thing. And then the other thing is,
do you deny that the temple itself was set up
for a quarter of a million animal sacrifice with the
blood canals, very large blood canals. Do you deny that
on the air?
Oh, I don't know that fact, so I wouldn't, I
(42:15):
would neither confirm nor deny. Well,
Speaker 1 (42:17):
the, the system that I think we were talking about
earlier is they still were practicing sacrificial, you know, the
sacrificial system at that time, so there would have been
the means to take the blood out of the temple.
There would have been very large corrals next to the temple.
Jesus didn't come away at this moment to do away
with the sacrificiale system until his death and resurrection gave
(42:39):
a new covenant. So,
The, the sacrificial Coven was still present at that
time.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Yeah, Andrew, um, you know, it sounds like you've got something,
you know, that's really heavy on your heart, a deep
conviction about, you know, the consumption of animals in these
things and
Um, yeah, I, I would think what God, where you
would align with, you know, the heart of God in scripture,
is the overconsumption and waste that humans use. Um, you know,
(43:10):
so God actually scripture says that God has given us
richly all things to enjoy, that the earth is filled
with abundance that God has provided for us to eat
and to nourish our bodies, and God clearly gives us
animals to eat, that's found actually in the Noaic covenant.
And Paul later will say that actually there's gonna be
a time, you know, in uh the latter years where
(43:32):
people are gonna come along and they're gonna give these,
you know, kind of new rules saying that, you know,
we cannot eat meat at all. They're gonna refuse all
these things thinking that this is the issue, but actually
the deeper issue of humans is that we are turned
in on ourselves because of sin.
And we are separated from God. And so what we
need is we need redemption. We need someone to bring
(43:55):
us back to God, and that's actually what the Bible
is about. It's not focusing on, you know, a sacrificial
system or, you know, just one of these issues that
we consume too many animals and we're wasteful and these things.
It's the deeper need of human hearts.
To be brought back to the God who is love,
(44:16):
the God who is a mercy, the God who is just,
the God who is righteous. We need to be redeemed,
and Jesus Christ is that redemption. He became a human being,
he lived the full human experience, suffered, died, rose again,
and ascended.
In order to bring humans back into God's story, to
be his image bearers, to be his partners, and to
(44:39):
spread his kingdom to the ends of the earth. That's
what the Bible's actually about. And so, I would just
encourage you just, you know, with this topic, you know,
it sounds like it's really important, and, you know, kind
of heavy on your heart, um, but maybe just to
go back to scripture and and just ask yourself, you know,
have I kind of maybe missed the point of what
the Bible is getting at here?
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Andrew, thanks for calling us today here on Pastor's Perspective.
Now we'll go to Laurie in Beaumont, listening on FM
107.9 K wave. Hey, Laurie, what's up?
Speaker 2 (45:11):
Hey, good afternoon, pastors. Thank you for taking my call.
Um, something I often think about is our command to
love one another, including our enemies. Now, when it comes
to things like those who wish the destruction of Israel
or those who in various countries behead Christians, uh, the Holocaust,
(45:38):
how do we, how do we apply that?
That we can look at those who perpetrate such evil.
And say, I love you. Hm. Yeah, that's a good question.
Yeah, yeah, so I, I think in these instances, I
think we need to kind of differentiate a a few
(45:59):
things here, you know, the Bible is never commanding us
to look at evil, you know, gross wickedness, um, humans
afflicting other humans and to respond and say, well, I
love you, right? That is not love, um, and we
can read even in, you know, the psalter, right, the
songs and prayers of Israel.
(46:20):
That the psalmist will actually say, God, bring justice, bring
judgment in these situations, you know, people are doing wrong and,
you know, wanting the downfall of others, and we ask
that you would intervene, that you would show yourself, uh,
to be righteous and just and true. And so I,
we can pray those things, and I think we do
(46:42):
pray that as we pray the Lord's prayer, your kingdom come,
your will be done on earth as it is in heaven,
but then there is
You know, these commands, as you said, to love our enemies.
So practically, how do we do that? And I think sometimes, right, like,
you know, and the examples that you gave, you know,
these are things that are very far removed from you, right? Like,
(47:05):
uh uh Yeah. There's probably nobody in your life right
now that's trying to behead you or, you know, once
your demise in this way that you're describing. So, we're
talking about big global issues where you and I will
probably never sit in a room with these people.
And have the opportunity to practice the kind of love
that Jesus commands us to practice as God's people. So,
(47:25):
we need to live that out with one another, we
need to live that out in our cultural context, but
I think what we can do for these global issues
is we can pray.
And we can actually pray that these people would come
to know the knowledge of the truth. We should pray that.
And I think it was CS Lewis that actually made
this recommendation, I can't remember, but it's really difficult to
(47:47):
hate somebody that you're praying for, and that you're actually
praying goodness for salvation for, and I think the more
that you invest in that kind of prayer for your enemies,
the more you will come to want their good.
The more you will come to want their redemption, their salvation.
And so I think that's a practical way that you
(48:08):
and I can practice a different kind of mindset, and
I would say this is God's mindset. He says, do
I delight in the death of the wicked? No, I
don't want them to just perish. I want them to turn.
I want them to repent. And so this is a
way that we can actually practice God's kind of love
for our enemies.
Dave,
Speaker 1 (48:25):
I think
there's in our Western culture, we have such um.
An unawareness of the suffering that's going around the on
in the world right now. And so, Laurie, thank you
for for recognizing that there are Christians today that are
that are dying for their faith.
But if we go back to the, to the teachings of,
of Peter and his epistle, uh, First Peter 4:19 says,
(48:48):
so then, those who suffer according to God's will, should
commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.
In other words,
It is God's will sometimes that this suffering happens, and
so we have to say, God, what good?
can come out of this? What, what, what is, what
are you doing? And that's very, very difficult for those
of us who have gone through tragedy, those who have
(49:10):
gone through suffering.
And in some ways, the best we can do is
to pray. Other times, we may be in a place
where you're called to forgive. You know, Corey Tamboone talks
about in her journey of, of ministry after being freed
from a concentration camp, coming face to face with one
of the soldiers that was present when her sister was
(49:31):
killed and having to shake his hand and just the
The, the, the, the shock of that and the and
the struggle that she had to give forgiveness. This is
not an easy thing to do, but it is a
God thing. And that's why I love how Peter just
says you should commit themselves to your faithful Creator because
(49:51):
in those moments of suffering,
In these moments where we're confronting the injustice and the
suffering of the world, the best we could do is
to say, God, I want you to change me so
that I can express who you truly are to those
around me.
Laurie, what do you think?
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Good, good answers. Um, I, I would pray that I
could live up to those standards. Yeah, I think for
any of us, Laurie, too, these are things, these are muscles,
spiritual muscles that we have to exercise, right? Like Dave
was saying, like for Corey Timboom, like,
She would have never thought that she was able to
do this, and yet she had lived her life as
a faithful follower of Jesus. And so when it came
(50:33):
to this critical moment in her life, like, am I
gonna forgive an actual enemy of mine, she was able
to do it by the power of the spirit working
in her. That's true for all of us. None of
us just step out, you know, and just can do this,
you know, miraculously, that's not how God works. He says,
you follow me.
You follow my way of being. You put into practice
(50:56):
my teachings, and guess what? When it comes down to it,
the brass tacks of these difficult things where you say, oh,
I could never forgive that. I could never do that,
you will do that because you have been walking with Jesus,
and you have been in step with the Holy Spirit,
and he is alive and at work and you, and
that's how we are transformed by the spirit.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
Laurie, thanks for calling today on Pastor's Perspective. Now here's
Carmen in Upland. Welcome to the program, Carmen. How can
we help you?
Speaker 2 (51:26):
Yes, hi, thank
Speaker 1 (51:27):
you
Speaker 2 (51:28):
for taking
Speaker 1 (51:28):
my
Speaker 2 (51:28):
call. You're welcome. I have a question about the end times.
I know you mentioned it a couple of answers ago,
but are there any more prophecy that needs to be
fulfilled to let us know Jesus is really on our
way back, you know how you were growing up and
everybody would say, uh, Jesus is coming soon. They've been
saying it for years, but is there any more prophecy
(51:51):
that needs to be fulfilled? That's what I wanna know.
Yeah, that's that's a great question, Carmen. You know, I,
I grew up, um.
In a church movement where we used to say that
all the time, and our pastors would, uh, often get
up and, you know, kind of do what we, what
we call these prophecy updates and
You know, Dave kind of referenced this earlier, but, you know, it's,
(52:13):
we think that there's kind of this divine timeline that
we can follow, so we can know, OK, only 2
more left, you know, kind of like a, a thermometer,
you know, raising money, like, all right, you know, if
we just get to this point, then it's critical mass,
and then he comes, and Jesus actually says,
That's not how it works. Don't do that. And so,
(52:36):
you know, part of this is scripture and the way
that prophecy works is just so fascinating because there's actually
prophecies that we look at and we think, oh, this
is what's gonna happen, you know, in the millennial reign.
This is what's gonna happen at the end, and the
biblical writers in the New Testament telling us, oh, this
is already what's happened.
(52:56):
You know, so you, you know how people, you know,
a couple of years ago, all about the blood moons
and the blood moons. Do you remember this? This was happening. Oh,
the blood moons, OK, so, well, well then that's the
end times. Well, Peter actually quotes a blood moon passage
on the day of Pentecost, that was 2000 years ago.
And he says, this is exactly what Joe was talking about,
(53:20):
the coming of the spirit, you know, mighty signs in
the heavens and on the earth. This is it. The
spirit is here, this new work that was promised is
being fulfilled. And so,
Sometimes we're looking at biblical prophecy, thinking that like, oh, it's,
we're waiting for this to happen, and the biblical writers saying, actually,
(53:40):
Jesus did this. This actually is what part of his work.
And so I think we just, all that to say,
we need to be careful when it comes to biblical
prophecy and trying to find that um follow a divine
timeline like that, cause what we might find is actually,
you know, oh,
Jesus actually says that he fulfilled that prophecy, and I
(54:03):
think that it's still to come, or the New Testament
writers say that actually happened here, and I'm thinking that
it's in the future. So, you know, this just will
help us, uh, discern, you know, what the story of
the Bible is actually about.
Speaker 1 (54:16):
Yeah, I would just say, Carmen, live, live with the
expectation that Jesus can come back any day because then
you're gonna be doing the right things now.
God's calling us to be faithful, and I really do
believe even the apostles thought Jesus was coming back in
their lifetime. They, they were saying, all right, let's go.
And I think we need to have that same expectation. Carmen,
(54:38):
thanks for your phone call. We are out of time
on today's episode of Pastor's Perspective. Got a lot of
phone calls in, a lot of questions. That was great.
Thank you guys for participating.
We'll be back tomorrow between 3 and 4 p.m. and
would love to hear from you. If you were watching
on Facebook, YouTube, or Instagram. Thank you for doing that. Tomorrow,
call in, won't you please, at 888-564-6173. We open up
(55:00):
the phone lines about 7 minutes before 3 o'clock. Char
Broderson from Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa is here today. You
can find out more about CCCM.
At CCCM.com. And our guest was Dave Keene. He's a
professor at Biola University and also a, uh, teaching pastor
at Cornerstone Community Church in San Clemente. You can find
(55:20):
out more about Cornerstone Community Church online at cornerstoneonline.org. God
bless you guys. We'll talk to you tomorrow on Pastor's Perspective.
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez.
It's Wednesday and we are here live until 4 o'clock
today to answer the questions you have about the Bible,
the Christian faith, just about anything that's on your mind.
Give us a call at 888-564-6173. If you're watching on Facebook,
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(00:39):
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(01:02):
perspective, Instagram. But the best way to get an answer
is to call us when we're here, like today till
4 o'clock at 888-564-6173. We've got Char Broderson, the lead
pastor of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, joining us today. Yes,
it's Wednesday. He's normally only here on Mondays, but he's
here today. Thank you, Char,
Speaker 2 (01:20):
for coming in. I was
an accident. I just walked in.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
And you said, hey, do you need anybody? I
Speaker 2 (01:24):
said, oh, who's sitting in that chair?
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yes. And Dave Keene is here too. We've had him
on before. He's a professor at Byola University. He's also
a teaching pastor at Cornerstone Church, Cornerstone Community Church in
San Clementi. Welcome back, Dave. Thank you. It's always a
pleasure to be here. Yeah, it's good to have you here.
So you guys haven't met prior to today. So Char
tell Dave something about you and Dave tell Char something
(01:48):
about
Speaker 2 (01:48):
you. Oh wow, um,
Speaker 1 (01:50):
that's how we do introduction. That's my lazy way of
Speaker 2 (01:52):
like tattoos, so.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I could, I could see that we have something in common.
There we go. My, uh, claim to fame at Viola
is I'm the first Bible prof with a full sleeve
of tattoos.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
So there you go. That's a pretty good claim to
fame.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
I did, uh, wait to make sure I had tenure
first before, uh, before I started this process.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
I'm so dummy. Yeah,
that's great. Too cool.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
All right, 888-564-6173 is our number and as I said,
you can send in your questions online too. Here's one
that Paul sent in.
A pastor friend of mine is convinced that the majority
of American churches are not preaching the true gospel. He
claims that the gospel is being presented as a ticket
out of hell and a ticket into heaven, but nothing
(02:33):
is being presented to encourage people to live for Jesus
and to show His love to others. Do you believe
that most churches are preaching a gospel that is just
about getting into heaven? Has there been any research concerning
this matter? Sure.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Yeah, I mean, you can, there's definitely research that is
done concerning this matter. Um, and I mean, yeah, I mean,
I imagine Barna has done quite some extensive work on this. Yeah,
you know, there's one of those questions where I don't know,
I think, I often think like faithfulness never makes the headlines.
(03:07):
And, you know, what you're going to see on the internet,
you know, sometimes is clickbait, you know, so it's gonna be,
you know, this pastor said this and it's, you know,
off doctrinally, it's heretical, whatever it might be, you know,
that's the stuff that people are going to click and
they're gonna want to see and the stuff that people
are gonna want to talk about. But unfortunately, you know,
the churches that are just faithfully preaching the gospel and
(03:28):
what we would say is, you know, the reign of God,
allegiance to Jesus, the king, following in the way of Jesus,
loving their neighbors, doing mercy and justice.
You know, that kind of work is not gonna make
the headlines, you know, people don't, they overlook that kind
of stuff. And then I think sometimes too, like, you know,
we can kind of try to define ourselves by what
we're not, you know, and so we can kind of
(03:49):
throw stones at other churches and compare, you know that. Well,
we're really, you know, the church that's teaching the truth
and who knows what that church over there is doing,
and I think we just need to be careful about
that stuff. I think we can talk about cultural, um,
you know, the
Culture of discipleship in the church, and um the need
to always be, you know, self-reflective um are we walking
(04:12):
in the way of Jesus, you know, think about the
letters to the churches, the book of Revelation, how Christ
is commending and yet he's saying, hey, and these are
the things that I have against you. And so he's
wanting to correct, bring us into line with him, or Paul,
you know, he wants to bring us into line with
the way of the spirit. And so, you know, I,
I hope that each church community is doing that.
As being introspective, self-reflective about, you know, what are the
(04:37):
areas that we need to refine and, you know, come into, um,
Yeah, agreement with the way of Jesus and the work
of the spirit. So, Dave, I mean, what do you think?
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Yeah, the, the latest Barna study that you kind of
maybe decided the state of the church just came out
in earlier this year that is looking at a renewed trend.
That has Gen Zs kind of really turning to Jesus
and and I think that language that Dave Kinnaman, who
um does a lot of work with us at Viola
(05:11):
sites is
The turn to Jesus because it's not so much just,
you know, you see a return to church. You see
people really wanting to know Jesus and making equipment to
Jesus and I think the more we keep focused people,
how do we follow Jesus, how do we obey Jesus,
that's where we're gonna get more people into the, into
the true nature of what it means to be a
(05:32):
follower of Jesus, not just a ticket to heaven, that's punch,
but actually like.
I'm obeying Jesus with my lifestyle and my with my beliefs.
And so I think there's a lot there. I know
our dean at Stetzer at Talbot has been going across
the country in the lead the way tour for Talbot
Seminary and basically talking about these ideas about there's been
a renewed interest in the gospel, um, across the country. Yeah,
Speaker 2 (05:56):
it's so exciting. I love that too. Like, we're not
talking about church, we're talking about discipleship in the way
of Jesus, which is.
So refreshing. We're actually teaching through the Gospel of Mark
on Sunday mornings here at Calvary, and just showing like, look,
Jesus actually came to dismantle this system that was keeping
people out was so, you know, prejudiced and xenophobic, and
(06:18):
he came to dismantle this, and he said, I'm, I'm
showing you the way, you know, Mark's theme of the way,
Luke's theme of the way, John's theme. So, yeah, it's
just so refreshing. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Paul, thank you for sending in your question through the
Kwave.com pastor's perspective page. And let's do one more before
we go to the phones. Joseph, you'll be first up. Michelle.
She wants to know, uh, she says, I'm a Christian.
I firmly believe that Jesus is God, as the Bible
clearly states over and over again in many different ways.
But in Genesis 1:26, God says to make man in
(06:52):
our image. And John also tells us that Jesus is
the word, and the Word was with God. I completely
understand how God created Himself.
In the form of a man and put Jesus on
earth with a body, but I'm confused about how Jesus
is even considered to be God in the form of
a man if he already existed in his own spirit
from the beginning. This leads me to believe that even
(07:15):
from the beginning, God and Jesus were two separate spirits.
So I guess my question is, despite what I truly
believe and know.
That Jesus is God. How can Jesus be God if
they are two separate spirits and identities from the very beginning?
Please help me understand this and ease my mind about
this confusion. Please help me to answer this question in conversations,
(07:36):
especially with Jehovah's Witnesses. Char, what do you say to
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Michelle? Yeah, I think many, here's, here's one thing I
think we just need to be clear about.
That we don't necessarily understand or wrap our minds around
the nature of God as Trinitarian, but we accept it as, uh,
you know, revelation from God. And what the scripture is
saying is not that there are three different um gods,
(08:02):
but that God Himself is um communal, that there is
within the Godhead, Father, son, and spirit. And so,
Even, you know, and some of these things, you know,
are just, when we just think about them logically within
the narrative of scripture, it's like, oh, OK, you know,
all the ways in which the spirit of God is
(08:25):
referred to as God, or it could be referred to
as the spirit of Jesus, the way that the spirit
shares divine attributes with Yahweh, the way that Jesus shares
divine attributes with Yahweh. They are all worship, they all
share these attributes. So we see these things, even though,
you know, the scripture doesn't say,
You know, Jesus is God, like right on the nose,
(08:47):
the way that you maybe the Jehovah's Witness want us
to produce, you know, or maybe the Mormons want us
to produce.
And yet, if you have eyes to see, it really
is everywhere. You know, I just mentioned a moment ago
today that we're teaching through the Gospel of Mark on
Sunday mornings, and it's incredible to see the way that
Mark is actually developing Yahweh's second exodus that he will perform,
(09:11):
that these are all the things that Jesus himself is doing.
He is identifying himself with Yahweh, who will
Come, who will regather his people, he will heal the blind,
he will heal the deaf, and he will bring them
onto the highway of holiness. These are things that see
that Yahweh will do, and Jesus is the one that
(09:32):
is doing them, and he's receiving worship, he's receiving declarations
about his identity. And so we could talk, you know,
about so many scriptures, we haven't even mentioned the Gospel
of John yet.
But I think just taking us back to the beginning,
just for a moment, right, when God says, you know, come,
let us make mankind in our image, male and female
(09:53):
is what he creates. And so when God creates humanity
in his image, he creates two, not singular, not one,
and there is within humanity, right, relationship and dynamic and dynamics,
excuse me, it's not static.
And so we should understand even from the creation of
humanity that God Himself, what it means to bear his
(10:14):
image is to be a communal being.
And so God creates us after Himself, who is a community,
and I could go on and on, but, you know, Dave,
Speaker 1 (10:28):
I think the reality is that our minds will never
be at ease because our minds can't fully comprehend a
triune God, one God in three unique persons, not separate
entities altogether, but one God.
And so there's no perfect analogy that relates to the Trinity,
(10:50):
and therefore we do take this on faith that we
have one God in these three persons. And I think
one of the greatest stories from the Gospel, John, that
sets up our confidence that Jesus is the true God
as as working out the will of His Father even
(11:10):
on earth.
It's actually in John 10, and it's, it, it's the
head of when the Jews, uh, are just in rebellion
against Jesus and pushing back and he's done these miracles and, and,
and the Jews actually just come flat and ask him,
how long are you gonna keep in the suspense? Tell us,
are you the Christ, right? Just tell us, are you
(11:31):
the one we've been waiting for? And he's like, I've
done all these miracles and you don't believe. And, and
he basically says, those who are my father are mine
and
And he makes that famous statement in John 10:30 that
I and the Father are one. And yes, our Joe
and his friends are going to take that as being
like they're unified, they're on the same team, but the
(11:52):
Jews knew exactly what he was saying because they picked
up stones to stone him and he's like, why are
you gonna stone me? He's like, What miracle? And they say,
because you
A mere man claimed to be God and the Greek
word they used their theos, which is used only for
the one true God. And so the Jews knew exactly
who Jesus was claiming to be as. He wasn't just
(12:15):
a god, he wasn't just the spirit of God. He
was God. And, and that was where they just said
we're done with you.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Um, I'm trying to remember the book, I think it's
um
Gosh, it's not Larry Hurtado, can't remember who it is,
but uh the book's called the oh, it's Richard Bham,
the crucified God, and he talks about how, um, you know,
Jewish monotheism included a Trinitarianism within it, and he points
out how, I think it's both in First Corinthians, Paul
(12:43):
quotes the shama.
And he includes Jesus as Lord in that statement, and
he doesn't bat an eye, doesn't even unpack it for
the Corinthians, it just is. And also, when, you know,
when we consider, you know, we read Philippians too, and
we think, oh wow, this, this is really cool thing,
you know, Jesus went on this journey of humility, you know,
(13:03):
he wasn't with God in the form of God, but
then he went on this journey of humility, you know,
to the point of death, and death on the cross.
Therefore God's highly exaltedative given him.
Uh, the name which is above every name, and we're like,
that's cool, Jesus is gonna get a new name, and
we don't recognize, cause maybe we don't know our Jewish scriptures,
that the name is Yashem. It's the, the, you know,
(13:24):
the Jews would not say the name of God, so
they would only refer to him as the name, and
he is the name that is above every name. And
so what Paul is showing there is that Jesus Christ
shares in the very name of God.
I mean, this is just astounding stuff that Paul is
just unpacking for us, you know, here. And so again,
You know, I, I think the problem is scripture doesn't
(13:47):
You know, if we don't know our Bibles, and we
don't understand the historical context of these things, you know,
and what these things meant to the original hearers, you know,
we're like, oh, he doesn't say he's got, you know,
he says he's one, and husbands and wives are one,
like you said, Dave, you know, and so I think
the unfortunate thing is that we're forcing our cultural context
and the way that we use language upon the scriptures,
(14:08):
and therefore we're blind.
To the blatant stuff that Jesus is saying here, and I,
I was just thinking as you were saying it, David,
it's profound that they're like, tell us plainly if you're
the Christ, and he goes one better, right? He's like, uh, yeah,
but you don't even get it. I'm more than that,
you know, I am Yahweh here presently. It's just astounding.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Michelle, thank you for sending in your question from Riverside.
888-564-6173 is our number, and we're going to go to
the phones now. Here is Joseph, also in Riverside. Welcome
to Pastor's Perspective.
Hey everyone, how's it going? Good, how are you?
Good.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Um, so can I just ask my question? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
OK,
Speaker 2 (14:54):
so, um, I was doing work at a monastery today,
a Catholic one, and
I didn't think I was gonna get called to go there. Um,
I grew up Catholic and stuff like that, and, you know,
I started evangelizing and stuff. So anyway, um,
Speaker 1 (15:10):
I started talking to these guys about my testimony and
to the point that we had talked about the differences
in the Catholic and Christian Bible, and I got corrected,
and he pointed me to.
Yeah, um,
OK.
You still there, Joseph? I think we lost you.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
What is the difference
between the Catholic and Christian
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Bible? What is the difference? Well, just, yeah, that, that
your phone is cutting out. So Dave, what's the difference
between the Christian and the Catholic Bible?
To the best of my knowledge, I was never Catholic,
but that the Catholic Bible includes the apocrypha, which existed
um in the time of Jesus, actually, there are Jewish
(15:56):
historical writings that were translated and actually included in the
Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, which we call the Septuagate.
But we don't equate the apocrypha with the Jewish can.
In other words, they were books that were added on
and included more for historical reference, um, and I think
(16:17):
they're included this so they didn't lose that historical reference, not,
not because they had some significant teaching in them, but
they're more just the, these are the things that are
happening in Israel in that gap period when God was silent.
And so that there are definite certain
Uh, denominations, Catholicism, and other eastern, uh, denominations that hold
(16:39):
on to those teachings, but we do not equate them
to be the same level of
Canon authority as we would, um, the 66 books of
the Old Testament and New Testament Bible, but to my knowledge,
the apocrypha is the main difference in uh in what
we would have together.
(16:59):
Any thoughts from you,
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Char? Yeah, no, Dave's right. Um, yeah, I mean, so
we've got historical books, uh, within the Apocrypha, you think
about like the Maccabees and it's the history of the
Uh, Maccabean revolt against the Seleucid Empire, and so, I mean,
there's just some incredible Jewish history that's there, that's referenced
later by Josephus and things like that. Um, it's really interesting,
you know, again, referencing, uh, teaching through the Gospel of Mark,
(17:24):
even the book of Jubilees, uh, you know, I've been
reading through that. It is so helpful for understanding.
The Jewish mindset concerning the Gentiles at that time. And
so you really get like a deeper insight to like,
like what's the big deal here? Like, why are they
treating Jesus this way? He's just helping people, you know, yeah,
they're Gentiles, but what's the problem? Why, you know, why
(17:44):
are they so concerned about the washing of hands and,
and you realize, you know, how the religion
Religious leaders had taken on the tradition of the elders
and were actually forcing Israel to practice Levitical like cleanliness
with washings and ceremonies and all these things. And the
idea in their mind is that if we keep Levitical righteousness,
(18:07):
then the kingdom will come, then Messiah will appear. And
so they're so strict concerning these things. This is all
to do with questions of fasting that Jesus has asked
about washing of hands, um,
You know, coming from the marketplace, and these things are
happening again and again and then and again, and in
the book of Jubilees, I mean, there's this retelling of
(18:27):
the story of Dinah.
And the application is, if any Jewish family were to
marry a Gentile, even a converted gentile, they would be
burned to death or stoned to death. I've got, I
was quoting it just two weeks ago, and I was
just blown away by, you know, the, basically, you know,
(18:48):
the stance of these religious leaders at the time. So,
all that to say,
Some of this can be so incredibly helpful for understanding
cultural context. But again, like Dave said, we don't take
this as scripture. We would use this in the same
way that we would use, you know, kind of like
a um
A Bible commentary, you know, a contextual commentary, just like, OK,
(19:09):
this is what people believed at that time, these are
the practices of the day, super helpful, not authoritative for salvation,
for following in the way of Jesus or any of
those things. So, can be really helpful, um, and yeah,
it probably be good for Christians to read those and
uh chew the meat, spit out the bones.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
What do you think, Joseph?
Oh, that
Speaker 2 (19:33):
was
Speaker 1 (19:33):
pretty
Speaker 2 (19:33):
good.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Um, I guess if I could ask a follow-up question,
why isn't it
Speaker 2 (19:39):
authoritative?
Yeah, I mean, one of the reasons why Christians
Um, do not believe that it's authoritative is because uh
the Jews themselves did not believe that it was authoritative.
The canon was already closed.
Uh, and it's actually only included, as Dave said, in
the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament. So,
(20:00):
the Jews themselves did not accept these as authoritative, inspired
by God, uh, but they were their books, historical books,
and some of them have some heavy Greek influence in
them as well, and so, you know, the Hellenistic influence
in them. Um, but another reason why we as Christians
do not accept them is because Jesus himself quotes from
(20:21):
I believe almost every single Old Testament book in his ministry,
he never quotes from the Apocrypha. Hm.
And the Jewish writers, as far, or excuse me, the
New Testament writers, as far as I know, I mean,
I'm thinking maybe of Jude, quoting from the book of Enoch,
is the one exception we even have in the New
Testament to anybody quoting from the apocrypha. And so, uh,
(20:46):
it does not seem that any of the early church
considered that this was canon either.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah, the early church actually didn't even have a complete
set of what we have today of the apocrypha. So
it was still, uh, it was still in process of
how they're collecting the different codics, um, you know, it
wasn't together like the Old Testament canon was that
That Jesus and his disciples could reference when they talked
(21:11):
about the scriptures. They never were referencing the, the apocrypha.
It was always the prophets or the law that Jesus
used to explain the Messiah and who he was when
he would claim the scriptures, what makes you wise to salvation.
Very good, Joseph, thank you for your phone call today
on Pastor's Perspective. And now here's Tony calling in from Rialto.
(21:34):
I need you to turn down your radio please, Tony,
because I don't want to hear myself talking back to myself.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
What's your question, Brian? What?
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Tony, go for it.
Go for it.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
OK. How are
Speaker 1 (21:46):
you doing,
Speaker 2 (21:47):
pastors? Doing all right. Excellent show. Uh, I kinda caught everything, uh,
kind of late, but, uh, my question for you all,
you know, you hear a lot of people, and I
run into a lot of people, a lot of times
they say, you know, you have to keep the commandments,
you know, and I know, uh, uh, so what I
wanted to ask you all, what would be your perspective
(22:07):
on that because when I, I try to explain that.
When he says, you know, to keep the commandments, I
know the 10 Commandments are set up for, you know,
our moral laws and how we should live, but I
know that, uh, uh, this is just my perspective, and
I want to hear you all that when he says
that for me, I look at it that he's saying
we're under grace now.
(22:28):
And it should be a thing of, you know, we
should supersede that law in a sense by love now.
So it's not that we are commanded to do this,
it's like we choose to do these things now because, uh,
laws are like uh stipulations and you know it comes to,
you know, this is what you have to do when
(22:48):
you come to a stop.
I stopped because the law says, but I stopped because
I want to, because grace says. And so I just
wanted to hear you all's perspective on how you would
answer that when people say, Well, you had to keep God's,
you know, the commandments, you know, and I know he
says by the law no no flesh shall be justified.
So what would be your take on this? Oh. Yeah,
(23:10):
great question, Tony, just.
Yeah, I mean, I guess the bigger question is what
is uh a Christian's relationship to the law of Moses?
And I think we need to remember that the law
of Moses containing commandments and holidays, traditions, principles in it
was given to Israel, and this was given to them,
(23:30):
you know, as their religious law, their judicial law, their culture, right?
This is what God is presenting to them, um, and yet,
The law of Moses also represents, as you said, you know,
especially there in the 10 Commandments, the heart of God,
the bedrock of society, and God does this, I, you know,
I love this passage where God says, when you live
(23:51):
like this,
The nations around you are actually gonna say, what other
peoples like these people? They are so righteous in the
way that they live with one another, you know, the
way they take care of the poor, and, you know,
cause all these social justices are, you know, sown through
the fabric of this, how we treat our neighbor, how
we forgive sins and debts, and all these kinds of things.
The nations are gonna look at that and be drawn
(24:12):
to know the God that gave these laws, the God
that lives in the midst of these people. And so
I think we have to, you know, kind of put
ourselves in in that perspective and understand what it meant
for them.
And then understand where we are at now in the story.
So we understand, as you said, that Jesus has come,
and he is the fulfillment of the law. And I
(24:34):
think NT Wright has helped me better than any one
else articulate, that the law isn't bad, it is a
sign pointing to something.
And that something is the person of Jesus Christ. And
so when Jesus in the sermon on the Mountain was
talking about that he did not come to abolish the
law or the prophets, he has come to fulfill them,
(24:56):
to fill them up, to complete them, we should understand
that Jesus is the thing that they are all pointing to.
And so once you've arrived at Jesus, the thing that
all the signs are pointing to,
You neither despise the signs, nor do you go back
to them and say, oh, sign, let me thank you.
(25:16):
Let me just sit here and and ponder you, right? No,
you've arrived, and so, you know, stick with Jesus, and
I love what Paul the Apostle is doing, right? He
is showing is that Jesus, as you said, you know,
has given us a new commandment.
And that is to love our neighbor as ourself. First
of all, to love God supremely, to love our neighbor
as ourself. And Paul writes there in Romans, and then
(25:39):
he also alludes to this in Galatians as well, that
to love our neighbor as ourself actually fulfills the whole law.
It actually goes, it, it encapsulates all that the law
was after, and as Paul says,
Something even better happens now. The spirit of God comes
into us as individual, and as individuals and teaches us
(26:01):
to follow God's law from our hearts.
Because you've probably noticed this in your life, as I have,
sometimes there just isn't an answer or a law for
the right thing to do in my life. So what
do I do? Well, Jesus said, consult your own conscience,
you know, um, what would you want somebody else to
(26:23):
do for you, right? What does it mean to
Love someone. When someone does evil to you, what does
it mean to do something that is outstanding and surprises
the world around you? What does it mean to love
faithfully like Yahweh? What does it mean to be a peacemaker, right?
These are the things that we have to consider in
our own lives and our own context, and this is
(26:44):
actually how the law of the new
Covenant works, right? The spirit working in and through us
in our context, my life, my relationships, and like you said,
it actually does better than the law ever could have imagined.
Dave
Speaker 1 (27:00):
King.
You know, I think just two thoughts to add on, um, one,
When Jesus was here, not only did he fulfill the law,
but he also said,
You know, you've heard it said, but I tell you,
Jesus actually raised the standard for us to, to not
just get at the specific letter, but get to the
(27:22):
heart of the spirit that he wanted us to live out.
Then he also said, if you love me, you'll keep
my commandments. And so Jesus took the idea of obeying.
The teachings of him and obviously he was reflecting the
teachings of the law and the prophets before him as
as a relational response. So no longer was it just legalistic,
(27:43):
but now it actually was the because I believe who
Jesus is, because I love him, I'm going to obey
these commands. And so, um, that becomes my now motivation
in the process. Very good, Tony, hope that helps. Thanks
for calling in today. All right, man?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Hey man, I appreciate you all. You'll be blessed. Thank you. Yeah,
bless you too.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
888-564-6173 is our number, and it's just about break time,
so we'll wait till we come back to take another call.
888-564-6173 is our number, and we've got Char Broderson, the
lead pastor of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, in the studio.
You can find out more about Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa
at CCCM.com. Sunday morning services are at 8:30 and 11. Again, CCCM.com,
(28:28):
and Dave Keen is here too. He's one of the professors.
at Biola University, and he's also a teaching pastor at
Cornerstone Community Church in San Clemente. Find out more about
that church at cornerstoneOnline.org. What time are your services at? Uh,
9 and 10:45.9 and 10:45. Very cool. All right. So
check that out. If you're looking for a church in
(28:49):
that area, cornerstoneline.org. 888-564-6173 is the number to call. We
can't wait to hear from you. Who do we have
coming up? We've got Pebbles.
We've got Andrew, we've got Thomas, and we're waiting for
you to call 888-564-6173. Remember, you can send in your
questions online too using the Pastor's perspective Facebook Messenger, or
(29:12):
you can DM us on the pastor's perspective Instagram, or
you can go to Kwave.com and look for the pastor's
perspective page, fill out the form, and that gets your
question to us. But the best way to get an
answer is to call 888-564-6173. We shall return.
(30:18):
Hey, we're back on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number
to call. My name is Brian Perez. Char Broderson and
Dave Keene are here to answer your questions for the
next 25 minutes. 888-564-6173. Ready for another round, guys?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Here we go.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Let's do it. Pebbles and Riverside, welcome to Pastor's Perspective.
Hi, hi. OK,
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I have a question. Are
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Christians gonna be in the tribulation, or are they gonna
be raptured before then?
What do you think, Dave?
I definitely believe that um scripture presents a couple different
Readings, in other words, I, I believe there's Christians who
(31:08):
study scripture and believe wholeheartedly that the church will be
taken out before the tribulation, but I also believe there
are Christians who read the same scriptures and see that
Christians will come to a point of suffering and definitely
I think there are seasons of the early church that
resembled what the tribulation is. Uh, personally, I think that, uh,
(31:30):
scripture leans on the side at
That the Holy Spirit and the church are gonna be
removed from physically being present to allow the evil one
to reign as much as he will, but I do
believe there will be people that come to faith during
the tribulation that will
Become, you know, Christians here on Earth during that time.
So I'm definitely not the expert in that one.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Yeah, I mean, it, I, I love that you pointed out, Dave.
I mean, this is one of those areas of scripture
that just really isn't clear, right? And so we, you know,
it's an open-handed issue. It's something that we debate, you know,
it's kind of a a family issue, we debate it
in the house, but this is not what we want
to be known for, you know, like,
Well, what's your view, you know, well, those people, you know,
(32:12):
we reject them because their views different, you know, we
want to be known for our love, we want to
be known for, you know, standing on the tenants of
the faith, you know, like what the apostles creed proclaims. Um,
and so, the one of the reasons I want to
bring up for, I think just some of the confusion is, um,
some take the thief in the night passages as passages, um,
(32:37):
that are talking about.
The rapture. But the interesting thing is when you look
at these, they seem to be speaking actually of taken
away in judgment. And so again, that there's, you know,
the jury isn't out on this one. What are these
passages about? Are they about judgment, or are they about salvation,
you know, being pulled out of these um trying
(32:59):
Um, tribulations in these troubles. I think one thing that
we just need to be aware of, and I'm glad
that they brought this up, we need to be aware
of a Christianity that is devoid of suffering, right? Or
if we suffer, then it means that this thing isn't,
you know, uh, you know, this is a whole crock, right?
Because the way of Jesus is the way of the cross.
(33:20):
It's the way of suffering. It is a way of rejection,
it's a way
Um, of death. And so, you know, if our whole
basis for believing in a pre-tribulational rapture is because we
believe that God, you know, doesn't allow us to suffer,
then we need to read the Bible again, you know,
the Bible is actually from cover to cover, you know,
(33:40):
is filled with suffering of righteous people, and yet God's commitment.
Faithful love to them. So I think those are just
things that we need to be aware of. Now, when it, uh,
just one more thing, when it does come to, you know,
there's one passage in scripture that seems to be kind
of the linchpin for pre-tribulational views, and that is a
(34:02):
passage in First Corinthians where Paul is talking about those
who have, uh, died, who were believers in Jesus Christ,
and he talks about
You know, how they're not gone forever, no, no, they're
with Jesus currently, and when Jesus returns, he says, we
will be caught up, um, rapturros is the term there, uh,
we will be caught up to meet the Lord in
(34:23):
the air, and we will then forever be with the Lord.
And so the question people have is, is this the rapture,
the catching up, the taking away from the tribulation that's happening,
or is this like what happened in the Greco-Roman context,
when the king returned uh to inherit his kingdom.
(34:44):
Uh, you know, or a victor, you know, return from battle,
the people would go out of the city, and they
would usher in the king and the reign. And so some,
you know, reading ancient biblical context would say, actually, this
is what's happening in this passage. Paul's talking about how
we're gonna receive Christ and the saints, and we're gonna
come in, you know, and and
(35:05):
Receive the kingdom of God there and then. So again,
these are just kind of the differing opinions on this stuff,
and this is fun stuff to talk about and wonder and,
you know, reference different passages, but it's not something that
we divide over. And
Speaker 1 (35:17):
I
think we don't do ourselves a service when we think
of the end times as a sequential countdown and we
check off every war and rumor of of war as
this is the end times, and I think
When Christ was telling us about those signs, it was,
there were wars and rumors of wars already, and his
(35:37):
point was, live faithfully and ready that I could come
at any time. So that really is where our mindset
should be. It it shouldn't be focused on
You know, how close to the end times are we?
It should be like, I want to be faithful every day,
and I want to live expecting Jews to return every day.
And so I'm in this now, but not yet. I'm
(35:59):
in this sense of just being faithful to do what
God's called me to do now. Looking forward to that day,
he returns. And, and unfortunately, as I read, especially First Peter,
there's a lot of suffering that we're called to endure
along the way.
Pebbles, thank you for your phone call today on Pastor's Perspective.
And now let's go to Cyprus. Here is Andrew. Thanks, Andrew,
(36:21):
for calling
Speaker 2 (36:21):
888-564-6173.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
You're on with Char Broderson and Dave Keene.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Hey, how's it going? Good afternoon. I just had a
general question about um.
How do I put this? Um, if Jesus actually spoke
of supporting sacrificing animals, and then specifically, I wanted to
focus on the temple. Uh, the big speech in the
temple is, uh, he talks about the money, but I
(36:52):
would love to you, for you guys to address the temple,
if I'm not mistaken. The temple itself was supporting.
A quarter of a million sacrifices of animals, and there
were the blood canals, things like that. I would love
for you to address that if that's true historically for
the temple. And then if that's true, of course, then
(37:13):
it would be Jesus speaking about the sacrificing of the animals,
not the money.
Hm. Yeah. I mean the anger. Yeah, Andrew, I think that,
you know, an interesting thing here is, you know, when
Jesus comes to Israel, is he is not actually critical
of the sacrificial system, because this is a system that he, Yahweh,
(37:37):
in the flesh actually gave to the people of Israel.
What he is criticizing is the way that they have
corrupted it, and they have made
Um, this space in the temple that actually was to
bring the Gentiles in, they've filled it and made it
basically a moneymaker, and they've actually made no room for
the Gentiles, um, to actually be present, worshiping and knowing
(38:02):
the one true God. So this is what Jesus is
criticizing in these moments there, um, at the temple, and
it's not the sacrificial system. That would be very, um,
You know, mixed signals that God is giving, you know,
and remember, uh, maybe if you were listening earlier in
the show, we, we pointed out that in the sermon
on the Mount, you know, there's a lot of confusion about, OK,
(38:23):
who is this rabbi? What's he doing? You know, is
he just, you know, throwing out the whole Jewish system?
And Jesus says, hey, some of you are thinking that
here I am to throw out the whole Jewish system.
I'm not, I am here to fulfill it. And so,
Remember, Jesus is called by John, the Lamb of God
who takes away the sin of the world, and all
of this is being set up in the biblical story,
(38:44):
going back to Genesis 22, about this lamb that will
be provided by God for sacrifice, um.
Later in Exodus, about the Passover lamb, whose blood will
protect God's people from the angel of death, and, you know, who's,
you know, they are to eat completely, to consume it completely,
(39:08):
it's supposed to give them, you know, energy as they
exit out of Egypt. So, all of this is set
up in the biblical narrative, all pointing to what Jesus
would do on
The cross. And so we believe as Christians, that that
need for sacrifice was ultimately fulfilled through Jesus Christ. So
(39:28):
we don't practice animal sacrifice, that's done now, because it's
been fulfilled by Jesus, but Jesus wasn't here to criticize,
you know, the actual animal sacrifices.
And you had a question about, I think, you know,
did Jesus eat meat? Well, we know that he at
least ate fish. That's what we know. So, there isn't
(39:50):
a mention of anything else. I would say this though,
being a good Jewish boy who kept the law perfectly,
we believe, he would have observed Passover, and it was
required that every family have a lamb for themselves, and
the whole family was to consume it. And so,
Uh, we believe, according to Jewish tradition that also Jesus
(40:11):
would have eaten lamb, and he lived like a, you know,
normal Jew of his day.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
You know, you, you talk about the temple episode there, Andrew,
and you could see a theme throughout the ministry of
Jesus that he is most righteously angry at those who
hindered others from coming to faith.
You know, the, the, the legalistic system of the Pharisees,
(40:37):
those who would tempt children and lead them astray. In
other words, these money changers now in the temple were
making people bring their money in and collect it or
change it into a temple coin, just adding on another
burden upon the people. And so what we're seeing here
is Jesus is really, I think, more upset at
(40:58):
The hindrance of peoples, the Gentiles, especially in this case,
from not being able to worship God. And I think
that's why he has this righteous anger.
What do you think, Andrew?
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Oh, so my, my original question, I love all that,
but I would love for you to answer this. How
would Jesus sacrifice an animal?
He wouldn't. He wasn't a Levite.
OK, so if he wouldn't sacrifice an animal, then, um,
And you were saying that animal sacrifice doesn't happen. 3
to 4 billion animals are killed, killed every year for
(41:33):
consumption on Earth right now. I wanted to, I want
to listen to that. I, I, I think you misunderstood
what I meant. I meant we as Christians don't.
You recognize, you know, a, a sacrificial system with the
need for animal sacrifice. I wasn't, you know, refuting the
fact that we still consume animals allow you to, you
can answer however you want when you, when I get
(41:54):
off the air as far as how Jesus would sacrifice
in detail. And if he said he wouldn't, then that's
a whole another thing. And then the other thing is,
do you deny that the temple itself was set up
for a quarter of a million animal sacrifice with the
blood canals, very large blood canals. Do you deny that
on the air?
Oh, I don't know that fact, so I wouldn't, I
(42:15):
would neither confirm nor deny. Well,
Speaker 1 (42:17):
the, the system that I think we were talking about
earlier is they still were practicing sacrificial, you know, the
sacrificial system at that time, so there would have been
the means to take the blood out of the temple.
There would have been very large corrals next to the temple.
Jesus didn't come away at this moment to do away
with the sacrificiale system until his death and resurrection gave
(42:39):
a new covenant. So,
The, the sacrificial Coven was still present at that
time.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Yeah, Andrew, um, you know, it sounds like you've got something,
you know, that's really heavy on your heart, a deep
conviction about, you know, the consumption of animals in these
things and
Um, yeah, I, I would think what God, where you
would align with, you know, the heart of God in scripture,
is the overconsumption and waste that humans use. Um, you know,
(43:10):
so God actually scripture says that God has given us
richly all things to enjoy, that the earth is filled
with abundance that God has provided for us to eat
and to nourish our bodies, and God clearly gives us
animals to eat, that's found actually in the Noaic covenant.
And Paul later will say that actually there's gonna be
a time, you know, in uh the latter years where
(43:32):
people are gonna come along and they're gonna give these,
you know, kind of new rules saying that, you know,
we cannot eat meat at all. They're gonna refuse all
these things thinking that this is the issue, but actually
the deeper issue of humans is that we are turned
in on ourselves because of sin.
And we are separated from God. And so what we
need is we need redemption. We need someone to bring
(43:55):
us back to God, and that's actually what the Bible
is about. It's not focusing on, you know, a sacrificial
system or, you know, just one of these issues that
we consume too many animals and we're wasteful and these things.
It's the deeper need of human hearts.
To be brought back to the God who is love,
(44:16):
the God who is a mercy, the God who is just,
the God who is righteous. We need to be redeemed,
and Jesus Christ is that redemption. He became a human being,
he lived the full human experience, suffered, died, rose again,
and ascended.
In order to bring humans back into God's story, to
be his image bearers, to be his partners, and to
(44:39):
spread his kingdom to the ends of the earth. That's
what the Bible's actually about. And so, I would just
encourage you just, you know, with this topic, you know,
it sounds like it's really important, and, you know, kind
of heavy on your heart, um, but maybe just to
go back to scripture and and just ask yourself, you know,
have I kind of maybe missed the point of what
the Bible is getting at here?
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Andrew, thanks for calling us today here on Pastor's Perspective.
Now we'll go to Laurie in Beaumont, listening on FM
107.9 K wave. Hey, Laurie, what's up?
Speaker 2 (45:11):
Hey, good afternoon, pastors. Thank you for taking my call.
Um, something I often think about is our command to
love one another, including our enemies. Now, when it comes
to things like those who wish the destruction of Israel
or those who in various countries behead Christians, uh, the Holocaust,
(45:38):
how do we, how do we apply that?
That we can look at those who perpetrate such evil.
And say, I love you. Hm. Yeah, that's a good question.
Yeah, yeah, so I, I think in these instances, I
think we need to kind of differentiate a a few
(45:59):
things here, you know, the Bible is never commanding us
to look at evil, you know, gross wickedness, um, humans
afflicting other humans and to respond and say, well, I
love you, right? That is not love, um, and we
can read even in, you know, the psalter, right, the
songs and prayers of Israel.
(46:20):
That the psalmist will actually say, God, bring justice, bring
judgment in these situations, you know, people are doing wrong and,
you know, wanting the downfall of others, and we ask
that you would intervene, that you would show yourself, uh,
to be righteous and just and true. And so I,
we can pray those things, and I think we do
(46:42):
pray that as we pray the Lord's prayer, your kingdom come,
your will be done on earth as it is in heaven,
but then there is
You know, these commands, as you said, to love our enemies.
So practically, how do we do that? And I think sometimes, right, like,
you know, and the examples that you gave, you know,
these are things that are very far removed from you, right? Like,
(47:05):
uh uh Yeah. There's probably nobody in your life right
now that's trying to behead you or, you know, once
your demise in this way that you're describing. So, we're
talking about big global issues where you and I will
probably never sit in a room with these people.
And have the opportunity to practice the kind of love
that Jesus commands us to practice as God's people. So,
(47:25):
we need to live that out with one another, we
need to live that out in our cultural context, but
I think what we can do for these global issues
is we can pray.
And we can actually pray that these people would come
to know the knowledge of the truth. We should pray that.
And I think it was CS Lewis that actually made
this recommendation, I can't remember, but it's really difficult to
(47:47):
hate somebody that you're praying for, and that you're actually
praying goodness for salvation for, and I think the more
that you invest in that kind of prayer for your enemies,
the more you will come to want their good.
The more you will come to want their redemption, their salvation.
And so I think that's a practical way that you
(48:08):
and I can practice a different kind of mindset, and
I would say this is God's mindset. He says, do
I delight in the death of the wicked? No, I
don't want them to just perish. I want them to turn.
I want them to repent. And so this is a
way that we can actually practice God's kind of love
for our enemies.
Dave,
Speaker 1 (48:25):
I think
there's in our Western culture, we have such um.
An unawareness of the suffering that's going around the on
in the world right now. And so, Laurie, thank you
for for recognizing that there are Christians today that are
that are dying for their faith.
But if we go back to the, to the teachings of,
of Peter and his epistle, uh, First Peter 4:19 says,
(48:48):
so then, those who suffer according to God's will, should
commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.
In other words,
It is God's will sometimes that this suffering happens, and
so we have to say, God, what good?
can come out of this? What, what, what is, what
are you doing? And that's very, very difficult for those
of us who have gone through tragedy, those who have
(49:10):
gone through suffering.
And in some ways, the best we can do is
to pray. Other times, we may be in a place
where you're called to forgive. You know, Corey Tamboone talks
about in her journey of, of ministry after being freed
from a concentration camp, coming face to face with one
of the soldiers that was present when her sister was
(49:31):
killed and having to shake his hand and just the
The, the, the, the shock of that and the and
the struggle that she had to give forgiveness. This is
not an easy thing to do, but it is a
God thing. And that's why I love how Peter just
says you should commit themselves to your faithful Creator because
(49:51):
in those moments of suffering,
In these moments where we're confronting the injustice and the
suffering of the world, the best we could do is
to say, God, I want you to change me so
that I can express who you truly are to those
around me.
Laurie, what do you think?
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Good, good answers. Um, I, I would pray that I
could live up to those standards. Yeah, I think for
any of us, Laurie, too, these are things, these are muscles,
spiritual muscles that we have to exercise, right? Like Dave
was saying, like for Corey Timboom, like,
She would have never thought that she was able to
do this, and yet she had lived her life as
a faithful follower of Jesus. And so when it came
(50:33):
to this critical moment in her life, like, am I
gonna forgive an actual enemy of mine, she was able
to do it by the power of the spirit working
in her. That's true for all of us. None of
us just step out, you know, and just can do this,
you know, miraculously, that's not how God works. He says,
you follow me.
You follow my way of being. You put into practice
(50:56):
my teachings, and guess what? When it comes down to it,
the brass tacks of these difficult things where you say, oh,
I could never forgive that. I could never do that,
you will do that because you have been walking with Jesus,
and you have been in step with the Holy Spirit,
and he is alive and at work and you, and
that's how we are transformed by the spirit.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
Laurie, thanks for calling today on Pastor's Perspective. Now here's
Carmen in Upland. Welcome to the program, Carmen. How can
we help you?
Speaker 2 (51:26):
Yes, hi, thank
Speaker 1 (51:27):
you
Speaker 2 (51:28):
for taking
Speaker 1 (51:28):
my
Speaker 2 (51:28):
call. You're welcome. I have a question about the end times.
I know you mentioned it a couple of answers ago,
but are there any more prophecy that needs to be
fulfilled to let us know Jesus is really on our
way back, you know how you were growing up and
everybody would say, uh, Jesus is coming soon. They've been
saying it for years, but is there any more prophecy
(51:51):
that needs to be fulfilled? That's what I wanna know.
Yeah, that's that's a great question, Carmen. You know, I,
I grew up, um.
In a church movement where we used to say that
all the time, and our pastors would, uh, often get
up and, you know, kind of do what we, what
we call these prophecy updates and
You know, Dave kind of referenced this earlier, but, you know, it's,
(52:13):
we think that there's kind of this divine timeline that
we can follow, so we can know, OK, only 2
more left, you know, kind of like a, a thermometer,
you know, raising money, like, all right, you know, if
we just get to this point, then it's critical mass,
and then he comes, and Jesus actually says,
That's not how it works. Don't do that. And so,
(52:36):
you know, part of this is scripture and the way
that prophecy works is just so fascinating because there's actually
prophecies that we look at and we think, oh, this
is what's gonna happen, you know, in the millennial reign.
This is what's gonna happen at the end, and the
biblical writers in the New Testament telling us, oh, this
is already what's happened.
(52:56):
You know, so you, you know how people, you know,
a couple of years ago, all about the blood moons
and the blood moons. Do you remember this? This was happening. Oh,
the blood moons, OK, so, well, well then that's the
end times. Well, Peter actually quotes a blood moon passage
on the day of Pentecost, that was 2000 years ago.
And he says, this is exactly what Joe was talking about,
(53:20):
the coming of the spirit, you know, mighty signs in
the heavens and on the earth. This is it. The
spirit is here, this new work that was promised is
being fulfilled. And so,
Sometimes we're looking at biblical prophecy, thinking that like, oh, it's,
we're waiting for this to happen, and the biblical writers saying, actually,
(53:40):
Jesus did this. This actually is what part of his work.
And so I think we just, all that to say,
we need to be careful when it comes to biblical
prophecy and trying to find that um follow a divine
timeline like that, cause what we might find is actually,
you know, oh,
Jesus actually says that he fulfilled that prophecy, and I
(54:03):
think that it's still to come, or the New Testament
writers say that actually happened here, and I'm thinking that
it's in the future. So, you know, this just will
help us, uh, discern, you know, what the story of
the Bible is actually about.
Speaker 1 (54:16):
Yeah, I would just say, Carmen, live, live with the
expectation that Jesus can come back any day because then
you're gonna be doing the right things now.
God's calling us to be faithful, and I really do
believe even the apostles thought Jesus was coming back in
their lifetime. They, they were saying, all right, let's go.
And I think we need to have that same expectation. Carmen,
(54:38):
thanks for your phone call. We are out of time
on today's episode of Pastor's Perspective. Got a lot of
phone calls in, a lot of questions. That was great.
Thank you guys for participating.
We'll be back tomorrow between 3 and 4 p.m. and
would love to hear from you. If you were watching
on Facebook, YouTube, or Instagram. Thank you for doing that. Tomorrow,
call in, won't you please, at 888-564-6173. We open up
(55:00):
the phone lines about 7 minutes before 3 o'clock. Char
Broderson from Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa is here today. You
can find out more about CCCM.
At CCCM.com. And our guest was Dave Keene. He's a
professor at Biola University and also a, uh, teaching pastor
at Cornerstone Community Church in San Clemente. You can find
(55:20):
out more about Cornerstone Community Church online at cornerstoneonline.org. God
bless you guys. We'll talk to you tomorrow on Pastor's Perspective.
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