July 7, 2025 • 56 mins
Pastors' Perspective is a one-hour call-in program where listeners can call in and get answers to questions about the Bible, Christianity, family, and life. The program is live Monday through Friday from 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM Pacific. You can call 888-564-6173 to ask your questions.
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hello and welcome to the very last episode of Pastor's
Perspective this month. My name is Brian Perez. It is
June 30th, 888-564-6173 is the number to call us today
and we would love to chat with you. We're gonna
be in the studio for an hour and we would
love to get your questions about the Bible, the Christian faith,
just about anything that's on your mind. Maybe you went
(00:36):
to church yesterday and you heard your pastor say something
that made you scratch your head.
Or saw something on YouTube, which we always warn you
about those YouTube videos that are out there. But, uh,
give us a call. We'd love to talk to you
at 888-564-6173. And to answer your questions today, we've got
Char Broderson, the lead pastor of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa
(00:57):
in Southern California. Also joining us is Mike Chaddick, the
senior pastor of Image Church in San Juan Capistrano, California. Hey, gentlemen,
what's going on?
Hello, Brian and Michael. Good to see you. Hey
Speaker 2 (01:09):
guys, good to see you guys. Yes,
Speaker 1 (01:12):
good to have you guys here, ready to answer the
questions that our listeners call in with. You can also
send in your questions online. A few options there, you
can go to the Pastor's perspective Facebook page and use Messenger,
or you can DM us on the Pastor's Perspective Instagram.
That is what
Than he did when he sent in his question from
San Fernando, which is, good afternoon, pastors. I've been waiting
(01:35):
on God in my life. How do I know when
it's time to make a decision as a man versus
still waiting on God, because I know God isn't going
to move me like a robot? I have free will
and need to make a choice. Should I make a
decision as a man or keep waiting?
Now, of course, we don't know what Anthony's decision is, um,
which is why we prefer when you guys call us
(01:56):
if at all possible, so that we can dialogue about
these things. But Char, based on what you heard, what
would you say to Anthony? Yeah, I mean, this seems
to be just a question about, I mean, what is
God's will for my life and yeah, at what point
in time, you know, do I have to make actual
decisions for my life and, and how I work that out. And,
you know, we've addressed this a number of times before,
(02:16):
but I do think
That sometimes the way that we talk about the will
of God or the way that we understand the will
of God, is that, yeah, like there is some there
is just such specifics to it that it actually kind
of leaves us paralyzed. You know, we think like, oh,
like I, I have to ask God about everything, you know,
like from the breakfast I eat to what time I
(02:38):
should go to bed and, and there's some people that have,
I think, you know, unhealthily taken it to that extreme.
So, the scripture makes clear from the beginning, you know,
in the pages of Genesis, what God desires for humanity.
He has made them in his image, he has made
them for partnership, uh, he has made them to spread
(02:58):
his kingdom to the ends of the earth, and we
understand that the redemption that Jesus has brought is to
bring us back on track to that, to bear God's image,
to be in fellowship with him, to partner with him.
And to spread his kingdom to the end of the earth.
And the way that we do that is by following Jesus, right?
We be Jesus' disciples. He is the way, he is
the truth, He is the life. And so we learned
(03:19):
from him, um, how to live this human life and experience.
And I think sometimes what we're actually looking for is
for the Bible to answer the specifics of how we
live out our discipleship vocation, how we live out this
image bearing, but the Bible doesn't do that. It gives
us these principles to live by, and and it doesn't
(03:42):
give us, you know, a pathway, it gives us a person.
It gives us the person of Jesus Christ.
And we are to follow him. And so in our
lives or in my life, I guess what I like
to do is to think, OK, what would Jesus do
if he had my life? You know, and somebody might think, well,
he would be a pastor. Well, not necessarily. Jesus was
a carpenter for 30 years. He lived a very, you know,
(04:05):
human experience, you know, so, um, one, Christian author has
put it this way, you know, as we think about
God's will.
He says the place God calls you is the place
where your deep gladness, it's thinking about who you are,
the gifts that God has given you, the abilities, the
(04:25):
path that God has brought you along, and so your
experiences and perspective.
And then where that coincides with the world's deep need
or hunger. I think that is a great place to
start and think about, this is where God calls us
to be. And those places where we bring God's spirits, um,
God's goodness to the places of deep need in our world.
(04:48):
And so what God wants us to do is by
following Jesus, wants us to learn how to walk.
In the way of the spirit ourselves, to be able
to choose those things that are good, those things that
are true, those things that are um
Praiseworthy. And so, you know, for all of us as
(05:09):
disciples of Jesus, we are training in order to do that. So,
I feel like I'm a little bit all over the place.
So Mike, maybe you want to jump in a little bit.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, it, it is such an important and practical topic, right?
And I think
You know, the Bible makes clear what is right and
what is wrong.
But what do we do, and I think this is, again,
without knowing exactly what they're talking about, because there's a
big difference between serial and choosing a spouse. So depending
(05:40):
on what you're talking about, it, there, there is a
different level of questioning and thinking and, and praying and
all that that I would go through. If it's serial
like you said, and no joke, I think you might
remember at Bible College, there were well, well-meaning brothers and sisters.
I'm not, I'm not kidding our audience here.
That genuinely, like they're coming out of the world, they
(06:00):
distrusted themselves so greatly because of their sinful past, that
they genuinely wanted to please God in every area of life, including,
and not limited to the choices of cereal they ate
in the cafeteria. I'm not even kidding. I, I had
conversations about that, and I think the heart is beautiful, right?
Like wanting to glorify God and everything. How wonderful is that.
(06:23):
But should every decision as small as cereal be something
where we're weighing, you know, oh my gosh, you know,
do I, does, do I need a word from God
and what cereal to eat and that kind of stuff.
And I think, you know, Paul gives us sort of the,
the answer, and whatever you do, whether you eat or drink,
do all to the glory of God. So that's sort
of the big thing. Can I do what I'm doing
(06:44):
to the glory of God? That's like, I think one
of the most practical questions.
You can ask before you do anything, whether it's small
or whether it's great, if you can do it to
the glory of God, and obviously informed by what biblical
says the glory of God is and what it looks like,
then I think that's a great simple guide.
But I think what the Bible does too, besides making
(07:05):
explicitly clear what is right and what is wrong, there
are things in life, and I hate to say gray area,
but it's just sort of in in the middle, the
Bible doesn't say it's right, nor does it say it's wrong.
It's just something that is a situation.
That people encounter in life. And what do you do there?
And I think it's good to remember because I think
(07:25):
some Christians, they, they think, you know, the Bible just
is black and white about everything. Well, if that were true,
we wouldn't need wisdom. We wouldn't need the wisdom literature
of the Bible, and the wisdom literature of the Bible
is there is to help.
Help us to navigate life successfully to the glory of God.
That's what it's there for. And wisdom is needed precisely
(07:48):
in those sort of whatever you want to call it
gray area in between. I it's, it's, I don't even
want to say gray area because that's, oh, it's a
mix of good men. No, no, it's just, it's something
that is not explicitly right or wrong, such as choosing
a serial. I don't think anyone would say choosing.
You know, trick cereal is inherently wrong, although for your stomach, it,
it might be, I don't know, but it's one of
(08:08):
those things where how do we navigate our choices and
then
I think it depends on the seriousness of the issue, right? Uh,
depending on how consequential it is, how serious it is, then,
of course, I would encourage someone to seek out counsel.
The Bible says, in a multitude of counselors, there is wisdom,
so there's gonna be situations serious enough to where we
(08:28):
go to trusted people, and I think particularly about spiritual things,
about our own walks with God in relation to a choice,
talking to Christians, godly men and women.
I think that's who we should go to. On the
other hand, I think the Bible acknowledges there can be
wisdom in, you know, for example, if you need financial wisdom,
(08:49):
I wouldn't necessarily go to a Christian who's the sweetest guy,
sweetest woman, but they have
Zero knowledge of financial matters. They, they do not handle
their money well. I would go to somebody who that's
their life, that's their career, they've done it successfully and
get advice from them on, you know, what I should
do or not do as far as investing in the future.
(09:10):
So I think there's different levels. One thing I think
everyone should do, and this shouldn't just be like college
or seminary, is take an ethics course.
And the reason for that is not that you'll be
somebody who has to weigh in on everything, but just
going through the different systems of ethics that are used
to make decisions is actually helpful in daily life. For example,
(09:33):
there's what's called erotaic ethics, and that basically means this,
asking what kind of person will I become if I
make this decision.
I think that's a wonderful thing to ask as a
follower of Jesus. Deontology, taking just rules, like blanket rules
and say, hey, is this always wrong? If it is,
then obviously it doesn't matter how bad I wanna do it.
(09:54):
I don't do it. So there's, you know, utilitarianism, while
not good as a system. Nevertheless, the idea of considering consequences.
If I do this, what are the potential consequences and
whom might it impact in a positive or negative way.
But I'll, I'll wrap it up here to go back
to the beginning to Genesis. One thing I think that
(10:15):
paralyzes Christians, Char was talking about the paralysis by analysis.
In the beginning,
Notice God did not tell Adam and Eve which trees
to eat from.
He said, which one not to eat from, and then
he said, of all these trees plural, you may freely eat.
Whatever is good, you pick, and I think some of
(10:35):
us would be like, wait, God, wait, which of the
good ones? Which, wait, wait, the one on 3rd from
the left? No, God just said, look, here is a
garden of delight.
I've made a beautiful world and it was almost like
it delights God for Adam and Eve to make the choice,
and God is watching. Oh, which good tree are you
gonna pick first? So all the good is available to
Adam and Eve. God clearly marked off, hey, there's one
(10:58):
you can't eat from the rest is your choice. So
I think we even have a model.
There of the idea that again, I think God gives
us freedom to make choices regarding things that are good,
and we trust His sovereignty and His providence. Even if
it wasn't the best decision, he'll get us where he
wants us to go.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Yeah, Dallas Willard, he had this um
Kind of analysis that he used. It was really interesting.
He talks about how people that have a rule for everything, uh,
actually grow, you know, they, they're just anemic. They never
grow in deep character. And I think some of us
have just traded, you know, kind of an Old Testament
(11:36):
law for a New Testament law, you know, do not touch,
do not taste, do not handle. And Paul says clearly
that none of this is actually going to help you
in any way overcome the flesh. And I think what
the New Testament gives us is a new vision, right?
Like the vision is love God with all your heart,
so mind and strength, love your neighbor as yourself. But
you and I, we actually have to work out what
(11:57):
that looks like in our lives, like, because Mike, I
don't have your life and you don't have my life,
and I actually don't have Jesus's life in the sense
of living in, you know, first century Judea and the,
you know, cultural context that he was in. So I've
got to think, OK, what does it look like to
love God.
As, you know, a married individual who's 42, living in 2025,
(12:20):
what does it look like, you know, to love and
steward my children? What does it look like to love
my neighbor? I have to think through.
You know, through from the biblical vision, what this might
look like in my life, and then I have to
engage it. And as I do, I actually grow in
the way of the spirit, because I'm assimilating God's commandments
(12:43):
into my life. They're becoming a living reality, and not just,
you know, a box that I check because, well, OK, well,
it said, you know, jump this high, do this many push-ups,
and I did it, and so, and so I, I
think we really need to
Consider this, that this is actually what the New Testament
is envisioning. It is envisioning partnership, discipleship, apprenticeship. God actually
(13:06):
wants us to make decisions for ourselves based upon the
wisdom of scripture, based upon Christ example, follow in His way.
Use his life as a map for your life.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, wasn't it Augustin who said that it's very jarring
and it almost makes you kind of freak out, but
he said, love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul,
and strength, and do whatever you want. And I think
we hear that last part and we freak out, right? Well, no,
before I was a Christian, I did whatever I want.
Hold on. Listen to what Augustin said first. Love the
Lord with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. And
(13:43):
if you do that, I think what he's talking about
is what you just said, Char, there's that freedom.
To enter into a living personal relationship with Jesus, you know,
and you're walking in the spirit, which again is, is
something that it's not, uh, Jesus John 3, the, the
spirit's moving is not predictable. We wish it was. Jesus says,
you hear the sound of the wind, you know, but
(14:05):
you don't know where it's coming from or where it's going.
So is the one who's born of the spirit. You're,
you're not in control, and I think sometimes as Christians.
We can almost study the Bible because we want to
get in control. Like we wanna be able to, and I,
and I'll be, I'll be the first to admit it.
Like I, for years, even in my studies, I was
kind of hoping if I just read everything, studied everything,
(14:28):
you know, this, that and the other, somehow I would
just know the answers to things before they happened. And
the truth is that never, that never came.
There's all, and I think there's a reason for that. There's,
there's that fundamental temptation in man, which I think is
actually the fundamental temptation in the Garden of Eden Eden,
which is to know rather than to trust.
(14:48):
And it's one of those things where, you know, cause like,
even the idea of defining good and evil. Well, they
don't even know what evil is at this point. So
I don't even think that's the fundamental sin. It's to
know rather than the trust. That's their choice. We can
trust God that these trees over here are good and
that one's not, or we can try to find out
on our own. And I think so developing that trust
(15:09):
and living relationship with Jesus Christ through the Spirit is
what life is all about.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Anthony, thank you for sending in your question through the
pastor's perspective Facebook messenger, and now we're going to go
to the phones. 888-564-6173 is our number. We've got Char
Broderson and Mike Chaddick here to answer your questions at 888-564-6173.
And here is JJ who is calling in from San
Juan Capistrano listening on the Kwave app. Hello, JJ, thanks
(15:39):
for downloading the app and thanks for calling in today.
Uh, hi, um,
Speaker 2 (15:43):
I was just,
Speaker 1 (15:44):
uh, my question today was, um,
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Like there's a little bit of context between this ques
behind this question, but uh like I was wondering if
um communion, but how, how seriously should I take that
because uh
Uh, my friend, we invited them to church, and I'm,
I'm not really sure on where they stand with the Lord,
and uh they were passing out communion and I saw
(16:11):
her take it, and I, I, like I said, I'm
not sure where she stands, so I didn't know if
I should speak up and be like, you shouldn't take
that because of the Bible, and it says in 1
Corinthians 11:20.
25? Oh, no, no. For 11:29, sorry.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
So for anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the
body eats and drinks judgment on himself. So like to
me that just seems very serious, you know. So yeah,
so that that's pretty much my question.
OK, sure, what would you tell JJ? Yeah, I mean,
I think specifically just to go back to First Corinthians,
what Paul is dealing with here is you have a
(16:50):
community that is actually
You know, like you said, they are Christians, and they
are actually not discerning what this communion meal is all about.
And Paul says he knows that because the way that
they are living so selfishly. So the act of communion, right,
is to remember Christ sacrifice his self sacrifice his self-giving
(17:15):
love for us. And so what we do is, as
we eat,
This is an act of identity, an act of aligning ourself, uh,
becoming one with Jesus. We're saying, Jesus, we are with you.
We are with your way of being, your way of living,
your way of sacrifice. And Paul is saying, you're actually
(17:36):
making a mockery of this by the way that you live.
And so you come to this communion meal and you
just do it without actually thinking about what it means.
And so he says, because of this, there is judgment,
some are sick, some are dying among you, and so
he wants them to
You know, think deeply about what this meal means, and
(17:58):
he wants them to adjust their lifestyle. And so, I
think that's the context from which, you know, this exhortation
comes out of, and I think when we think about
our gatherings on, you know, Sunday morning or whenever the
church gathers, and we observe communion, I think there's some
things that we have done that don't give us the
opportunity to do what Paul is doing. And I actually
(18:20):
think one of those is that we just pass out communion.
Um, what we've changed at our gathering is that we
actually have, we invite people to come to the table.
It's a decision to come to this table and to
align yourself with the Lord Jesus Christ. So we're immediately
giving that opportunity like, OK, do I align with Jesus?
(18:45):
Do I want to align with Jesus?
And because we do it this way, it actually allows
an opportunity for unbelievers to say,
Hey
What you're saying in this teaching is actually deeply resonating
with me. I want to align with what Jesus did
there at the cross. And so we actually use the
(19:07):
communion meal as an invitation.
To life in Jesus. But I think because we invite
people to come forward and make that decision themselves.
You know, we have an opportunity for that. I think
it's a whole different thing when you're just passing out
communion and you're not explaining what it is. I think
(19:28):
you're in danger of doing what the Corinthians did, right?
You're just observing this just as a ritual. It's just,
oh well, this is just a thing we do at
the end, you know, we eat this little cracker, we
drink this little drink and we go our merry way.
And so for us every week, we actually take a moment.
Um, and our teaching actually leads into the time of communion.
(19:49):
This is the moment for the church to come home
to Jesus, to align with Jesus, to turn from our sin,
to turn from our selfishness, and turn back to Jesus.
This is an opportunity for those who do not identify
with Jesus to actually confess their sins and to find
themselves in Jesus.
And so, I think we should take communion very seriously,
(20:12):
and I think that begins by the way that we
explain and the way that we actually observe it together.
What do you say to someone who says, well, people
are only going up at the end of the service.
Almost like a form of peer pressure, because they came
with people and they don't want to be looked at as, oh,
that person doesn't want to align with Jesus. Look over there. So, yeah,
(20:34):
I mean, I, yeah, I, of course, that could happen.
We leave space at the end of every single one
of my teachings, I leave a space where I explain
what the communion table is, who it is for. It
is for followers of Jesus, and then I often will say,
but if you are here,
And what I'm saying resonates with you. Jesus actually invites
(20:54):
you to this table as well. And this is a
table over there is forgiveness of sin, but there's a
whole new way to live as we ingest the life
of Jesus, we say, I'm with you. And so we want,
you know, and so we use that as an opportunity
for salvation. We use that as an opportunity for follow
up with those who have committed themselves to Jesus. So yeah,
that's what I would say, Mike.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Yeah, I agree with both JJ and Char communion should
be taken seriously. I think the question is, you know,
how do you go about that? First of all, how
do you communicate that it's serious and how do you
enforce it? Uh, those, those are two, you know, important
practical questions. So we do the exact same thing.
As Charles Church, so we don't pass out. We used
(21:37):
to do that. I grew up doing that at Calvary
Costa Mesa when I worked there under Pastor Chuck, we
passed it out. That's how we did it. I don't
think that's wrong. I don't think that makes people not
take it seriously per se. Um, it was our view, again,
on more the practical note.
That I think it lends maybe a little more. I mean,
we're talking about peer pressure. I think if it's literally
(21:59):
getting passed and the person sitting shoulder to shoulder with you, see,
so you, you, you declined to take it or whatever.
I think it's kind of like force fed, right? It's
sort of just shoved in your face, whereas what Char
is saying is exactly our thinking. At least the person
has to make a deliberate effort. They've literally got to
stand up out of their seat, make their way to
one of the far sides of the room.
(22:20):
And, you know, sometimes wait behind people and take the
elements and come back and we explain, we always refer
to our closing set of worship as a time of response,
and we explain what that means that this is an
opportunity you've heard the voice of the living God speaking
through his living word, but we don't want it to
go in one ear and out the other. This is
an opportunity to
(22:41):
Align yourself with the message of the gospel, of course,
that's what is so beautiful about the Lord's table and
why what the Corinthians was doing is so tragic. The
Lord's table is supposed to be a place of unity.
It's where God's people are united, because of course, as Christians,
we disagree with other Christians and denominations on many, many,
many things, secondary things. What about this thing over here?
(23:02):
What about that thing?
But by definition, to be a Christian, you must be
in Christ, and you're in Christ through the gospel, through
Christ's finished work upon the on the cross, His atoning death,
his resurrection, the gift and regeneration of the Holy Spirit.
So, it's supposed to be a time of unity, and
for the Corinthians, they were dividing the church. The rich
(23:23):
were coming early, eating all the food, drinking all the wine,
then the poor day laborers would show up and it's
all empty. So there was class warfare going on, there
was division, and I think quite ironically, I've seen many
people who say, oh, I take communion seriously.
But meanwhile, they're tweeting all week long or posting on
social media, tearing other brothers and Christians down and dividing
(23:46):
the body of Christ, and they show up and take communion,
but that's actually more akin to what Paul was warning
against in Corinthians, specifically against dividing the body.
Of Christ, not discerning it. And by the way, there's,
there's a play there with the word, the body, we think,
oh well, Jesus' body on the cross, which of course,
it refers to that, but the church is called the
body of Christ as well, and sinning against a brother
(24:08):
or sister, Jesus talked about this in the Gospels, if
you have something against a brother, and you're bringing a
gift to the altar, what did he say to do?
Set the gift down, go make things right, be reconciled
to your brother, then come forward. So, we don't say
this every week because this, this could become a sermon
in and of itself, to be honest with you. But
like we'll say, if you've sinned against someone in the church,
(24:28):
you've been harboring this, and you were planning on coming here,
taking communion like it never happened, you may wanna go.
Approach that person. Maybe you just need to say, I'm,
I'm so sorry I, I said that. I'm sorry, you know,
just like, let's take it seriously by honoring the unity
of the body of Christ. And then on the, on
the enforcement part, so how do you know whether someone
(24:49):
is serious in their heart or not? Like JJ, I
think you mentioned now, I know a person and so
you kind of know their life, but as pastors, I'm
not gonna know what everybody's doing Monday through Saturday and
things that are going on and
Then you get into formal church membership like the Puritans, uh,
they were really involved with people's lives. I think in
some ways it was good, in some ways it was
(25:10):
a little, little scary, almost might be a little bit stalkerish,
but
Today's standards, but I mean, they would really be involved
in your life, like come to your house, see what's
going on in your house, inspect it, so your, your
family relationships are right, and if they didn't like how
things were going, they would forbid communion, but then they'd
keep a roll and all that. And so, I, I
think on a practical note, it's actually a difficult thing
(25:31):
to do. So what we call people to do is
take personal responsibility. Like, you're, hopefully you're, you know, if
I'm speaking to adults, be an adult, take responsibility.
And be serious about the Lord's body.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Yeah. Very good. JJ, does this help you?
Uh, yeah, it does, yeah. Uh,
Speaker 2 (25:51):
it's just the one small thing I just wanted to clarify, like,
cause I do know this person personally, and we have
like these like, you know, discussions about Christ and like philosophy.
So I'm just like,
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I don't know if they should be taking it like
would it be like legalistic of me to be in like,
like pointing that out to them, or? Yeah,
I think for somebody. Now, is this
Speaker 2 (26:11):
person a Christian?
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I'm sorry. No, you're good, Mike.
Uh, a Christian, uh, I like, they, they call themselves spiritual,
like I would call them like a new leader, you know,
more than a Christian. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2 (26:23):
I would definitely advise the conversation. I don't I don't
think that's legalistic or wrong at all. Like, honestly, if,
if I thought, let me put myself in your shoes.
If I had a friend visiting my church or coming
to my church, and, and I knew they, like, either A,
I knew they weren't actually followers of Jesus, or B,
they kind of said they were, but they live like
(26:44):
hell all week long or something like that, I would
definitely say something, you know, because what they're doing also
is deceiving themselves.
That's the thing too. It's not just that you're, you know,
you're making mockery of that course, died even Christ died
for people who were mocking him, which, again, the incredible
depths of the grace and love of God, but on,
on our end, I certainly, not in a condemning way,
(27:08):
but I would definitely for the sake of their soul,
I would certainly want to know if they understand what
they're doing.
And the significance of that, and if they're not truly
entering into the gospel and receiving by faith the work
of Christ, it's actually, as Paul says in First Corinthians,
keeping judgment on themselves. Like I would actually say it
(27:29):
would be better for you to be honest and not
partake than to be dishonest and partake.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Sorry.
Yeah, I'm just thinking about, you know, I think that
this might be an opportunity, JJ, for you to also
just talk to your church leadership, you know, about, hey,
you know, we take this together and, you know, there
are actually people here who are not Christians, they're seekers,
and they're here with curiosity. It'd be really great if
we actually had an explanation, you know, for the congregation
of the significance of what we are doing here and
(27:57):
who it's for.
Uh, why we do it? And then, you know, if
you want to add this piece for those who are outsiders,
that this is a moment to reconsider their lives, and
ask that question, do I want to follow Jesus? Do
I wanna, you know, join the community of faith and
be unified with them. Uh, so I think that there
might be an opportunity there. Um, the question of
(28:22):
Yeah, like, does an outsider, somebody who is not a believer,
drinking these things, taking the, you know, the meal, does
that drink or bring judgment upon them? Like, I don't know, I'm,
I'm curious about that, Mike, because I think, like Paul
is addressing like a hypocrisy that God is judging among
his people that are doing this. And so I don't
(28:43):
know if there's more the judgment on that person's part,
but just the ignorance. So I do think there's an
opportunity for JJ just
Yeah, as a friend who's bringing a friend along and
they're curious, seeking, I think there's a great opportunity just
to talk about what this actually means for Christians, why
they do it, uh, the significance of the sacrifice of Jesus,
(29:03):
our personal participation in it as followers of Jesus and
why we don't believe that outsiders, you know, people that
don't believe and don't follow Jesus, uh, should be taking it, so.
Very true. But then there's also if something should happen
to JJ's friend, like she gets a stomach ache or something,
not to be, uh-huh, it's the Lord's judgment on you for,
(29:26):
I mean, that may not be like in the back
of my head, yeah, like I don't know, like because
some of this can sound like it's like, oh yeah,
you know, little incantation, you know, like, oh, drink this,
this thing's gonna happen to you. I think, OK, that's
not what Paul's actually talking about here. That's a very
specific thing of God judging his own people for.
The hypocrisy and injustices that they're committing. So yeah, break
(29:49):
time on Pastor's perspective. JJ, thank you for your phone
call today. We're gonna take more calls. 888-564-6173 is the number.
We've got Char Broderson and Mike Chaddick here for another
half hour, and we'd love to hear from you. 888-564-6173.
(30:15):
We're back on Pastor's Perspective. Thanks so much for listening
today and for watching as well on Facebook, YouTube, and Instagram.
We're gonna go back to the phones now, 888-564-6173 is
the number to call. I'm Brian Perez here with Char
Broderson the
Pastor of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, and also with Mike Chaddick,
the senior pastor of Image Church in San Juan Capistrano.
(30:39):
And here is Fred, who is calling in from Riverside
listening on FM 107.9K wave. Hey, Fred, how can we
help you?
Hi, yes, um, I had a question, um, I had a, uh,
a brother in Christ, and, um, it's actually his question, um,
cause I didn't know it actually happened. I guess there
(30:59):
was a, uh, incident in the Middle East where, um,
a guy came in, um, in the church and during
a church service, and he kind of shot everybody up
and then he blew himself up there and he killed
like 24 people. And then they said that, um,
Uh, I guess a family member said it's too dangerous
(31:19):
for us to come back and, um, here to church.
So my question is, when is it, um, when is
it time to kind of, uh, pick up stakes or, um,
should we stay, you know, stay firm and, um, you know, uh,
whatever God has, you know, for us is, you know,
(31:42):
it's gonna be, it's gonna happen. Yeah.
Yeah, well.
I mean, these are
I mean, just to be honest, these are issues that
we really have no idea about in the US. I mean,
you know, here and there we will have these kind
of incidents that happen, uh, but most of the time
(32:02):
they're not due to, you know, they're not the result
of persecution of Christians or to do with, you know,
some upset member of the congregation and of the community, um,
mental health issues and things like that. Um, and so yeah,
you know,
When is the Christian witness? When does it flee a
(32:22):
certain area, go underground, those things, I mean, I think
we would just have to consult church history on these
things and think about what the faithful have done for
thousands of years in these places where, uh, Christians have
been persecuted in places like India and China, and of
course the Middle East, um.
And I think what we find is, um, man, like
(32:46):
God in His grace and in His goodness, he strengthens
a remnant to be there, to be his faithful witnesses,
even through incredibly difficult times.
And yeah, reminds them of his presence through it all,
his own way that he walked, and the reward that
(33:07):
he has waiting. And I think, you know, when we
read the message to the churches,
Of revelation. I mean, it's really interesting. I mean, there,
Jesus is speaking to many of them and he's saying
be faithful to death.
Be faithful to the very end, that's the call. And
the end for them might look like, yeah, you just
live out your years of, you know, testifying to the
(33:29):
life of Jesus through your life, through your words, through
your actions, uh, for others, it is, uh, testifying at
the stake, testifying in the Colosseum, you know, uh, testifying
literally on pain of death that Jesus Christ is Lord
and Caesar is not.
And so I think, you know, these, um these are
stories that Christians have told throughout history, you know, a
(33:52):
martyr uh means a witness, right? And the, the church
has witnessed throughout history, uh, the reality of the kingdom
of God and the transience of all other kingdoms. And so,
you know, I say this in all humility. I have
not experienced persecution like this. I personally
Uh, don't have any, um, you know, understanding of the
(34:15):
personal cost that that takes, and yet I know the
stories of many faithful men and women, even, you know,
friends of mine who live in very difficult places where
it is very costly to follow Jesus and to worship
him publicly. Yeah, Mike.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Yeah, that's a tough one, and I honestly, I mean,
I think it goes back to what we spoke of
earlier in making decisions, how do we as Christians make
decisions and as a normative matter.
Obviously, participation in the church community is, is a part
of faithfulness to Jesus. It's a part of what it is. Obviously,
there's exceptions. If somebody is sick and in the hospital,
(34:55):
you shouldn't be making them feel bad for forsaking the
assembling of ourselves together when they're hooked up to a
machine or something. I, I think some people don't realize
there's a difference between a normative and an absolute condition.
Normatively when you can, you go, you participate, it's part
of your walk. Obviously, there's seasons and times people are
unable to do that.
I think one resource we have actually in Scripture is
(35:19):
that 1 may faithfully seek and pursue Jesus, be in
prayer and fasting, and make two different decisions on the
same thing. For example, in Acts chapter 8, due to persecution,
for example, for those who would argue, nope, all Christians
should stay and die as martyrs. Well, that's not what
happened in Acts 8. As a matter of fact, most
of the church, actually, the text says, all but the
(35:41):
apostles fled. They ran for their lives.
Some people say, oh, that's cowardice, but what was the result?
They took the gospel with them and they went everywhere
preaching the gospel and ironically,
God used persecution to get them to do what he
told them to do anyway. He wanted them to be
witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth,
(36:02):
but the fellowship was so sweet and great, they didn't
want to go. They didn't want to fulfill the great commission.
God allowed that persecution to cause them to go, but
on the flip side, the apostles felt, nope, if we
need to die here, we'll die here, we are called
to stay.
Um, you see this with the apostle Paul. Somebody actually
threw this out to me the other day that, you know,
even if a Christian thinks they're gonna die, going they
(36:24):
should just do it anyway, we shouldn't be fair. Well,
once again, it's something to be prayed over because the
apostle Paul himself actually fled for his life. At times,
people forget this. Yes, there were times where Paul was
willing to die, stood there, you know, was apparently stoned
to death.
You know, he, he eventually was killed, but you know what,
Paul was also let down and warned of an assassination plot,
(36:46):
and he was let down over a wall in a
basket in the middle of the night. You could have said, Paul,
why are you running? Stay and die like Mart. Well,
apparently Paul did not feel led to do that at
that time in that place.
So, I think, uh, by the way, this is where
the big division between the Christian Church and Judaism took
place in 70 AD. Many people don't realize that most
Christians fled Jerusalem. They did not feel called to stay.
(37:09):
They did not feel bound to Jerusalem. Many interpreted the
Olivet discourse is actually coming into play right then, as Titus,
as they saw this, you know, Titus marching in, and
he's gonna defile Jerusalem. They fled to the mountains and
the hills and all that, and many within the Jewish
community that stayed in Jerusalem.
Saw the Christians as abandoning their post, and then that
(37:29):
was sort of what historians mark is probably the great
historic break uh between Christianity and Judaism that has never
been bridged to this very day. So I think we
have biblical and historical examples of Christians on the one hand, staying.
Going to a place where they know they could be
killed for participating in the fellowship and others fled, I
(37:52):
guess the one qualification I could make, if one does
feel called to flee or whatever, I mean, it should
be 2 something.
Right, it's not just fleeing from danger, but where does
God want? How does the mission of Jesus continue in
my life? If not here, my question is then where?
And I think as a, as Christians, we ought to
be able to answer that.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Yeah, it's interesting too. I mean, Mike, as you pointed out,
like Paul will flee, you know, uh down from the basket,
he'll be, you know, sneak away in Lystra, right? He's
stoned and then he moves on to Corinth, and he
waits for Timothy, um.
Interesting, even at the end of his life, when he
does go to Jerusalem. Remember there's a prophecy given.
And everybody is telling him the prophecy means don't go,
(38:36):
and he's saying, actually, the prophecy is a confirmation for me.
It's personal. Nobody else understands, but Paul knows by the
spirit that that actually is confirmation of his call that
he is going to Jerusalem, and this will mean imprisonment.
It will mean suffering. So, yeah, I think that that's
such a helpful text to understand, yeah, like,
(38:58):
Sometimes faithfulness means to stay, sometimes faithfulness means to go,
and this is something that we need to discern as
followers of Jesus.
Great conversation today, Fred. Thanks for your phone call. 888-564-6173
is our number. And now let's go to Danny, who
is listening to us in Covina. Hey, Danny, how can
(39:19):
we help you today?
My pastors.
Uh, I had a question, was the killing of the
men of Cheam by Levi and Simeon a righteous killing
or was it a self-indulgent, uh,
Revenge killing, because
God was gonna kill, or he actually plagued Pharaoh for
(39:41):
taking Sarah.
He would have killed all the Egyptians there had they
touched her.
And Abimelek, he said, you're a dead man because you
took Sarah.
And uh when it came to Rebecca,
Even a Bemelek said, you brought guilt on us because
(40:02):
you told us she was your sister and she wasn't,
so anybody who touches this woman, they're dead.
So, now that they uh they actually raped Dinah.
They went further
So, that wiped out the whole people, but this was
(40:26):
based on between Levi and and Simeon.
tricking, uh, uh.
All that people saying that circumcised and they went off
and went to hell on him. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Danny,
I just wanna say, I think you've got your answer,
and I just want to commend you, like you're reading
the scripture and you're picking up on the themes that
(40:48):
are going on here. And I think, yeah, what you're
noticing is this pattern of God's protection over Abraham and
his family, because they are the vehicle through which he's
gonna bring Messiah, redemption into the world.
And God's faithfulness, even when, you know, evil tyrants do things,
you know, flex their power, right? Afflict the righteous that
(41:09):
God steps in, you know, this is where the Psalms say,
you know, touch not, you know, my anointed, do my
prophets no harm. We see this happening in the story
of Abraham and his family, and so when it comes
to this story, you're kind of wondering like, oh, what's
gonna happen?
And you see Simeon Simeon and Levi step in and
take matters into their own hands. And I think the
(41:30):
author is expecting us to arrive at the conclusion that
you are arriving at. This is unrighteous. This they went
so far above and beyond of what true righteousness actually is,
of what true justice is, and I think we can
even see this in in two more, well, specifically.
(41:52):
When we come later to Jacob's dealing out of blessings
and inheritance, right? Simeon and Levi are scattered in Israel,
and this story specifically is referenced. It is their wrath.
That is referenced here. This is not according to the
(42:14):
will of God. Jacob recognizes that this is not according
to the way of the Abrahamic righteousness that God has
laid out earlier in the story.
And I think the fascinating thing of all of this
is the theme that you pointed out earlier, Danny, we
see God's protection over Jacob at the end of the story,
even though.
Right? So, I think we are to conclude that God
(42:37):
would have dealt with Shekum and these people in his
own way, according to his righteousness, because we see, you know,
even though Levi and Simeon have stepped out and done this,
they've made Jacob and the family it just stench to
everybody in the land, God puts a protection.
Over Jacob and his descendants, and a fear among the people,
(42:58):
so that no one harms them. And so I think
you see again, God's protective hand over them as we've
seen in the past in the story. Yeah, Mike Chaddock.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Yeah, I think, you know, again, um,
A great book, uh, on how to read biblical narratives
written by Robert Alter called The Art of Biblical narrative.
And one of the things is, uh, that's unique about
biblical narrative is many times the narrator doesn't explicitly tell
you whether uh an action was right or wrong. It
(43:27):
sort of leaves you to understand through various indicators what
the results were, what the outcomes are, etc. And not
only that, but their stories are complex, just like real life.
And so there was
There was something right and something wrong in actually what
Levi and Simeon did, because keep in mind, was it
right that Jacob did nothing about his daughter's rape? Doesn't
(43:50):
the biblical narrative later indicate the same thing with David?
What was the reason Absalom hated his father David so much?
It was the same thing, his permissiveness in allowing his
sister to be raped.
So there was a, a thirst for justice. It was
not meant, it was not met in a godly way,
which is part of why God does establish the eye
(44:11):
for eye, tooth for tooth, etc. The goal is that,
even that verse, many people think it sounds like revenge. No,
it's about justice, because what would happen, of course, in
the ancient world, is that revenge instead of justice takes place.
When you deny justice, very often you don't get nothing.
You get revenge. And so while something should have been done,
(44:32):
and it seems that Jacob Aird, by doing nothing, it
seems David erred by doing nothing, but then, of course,
same thing with Absalom, right? They both go above and beyond.
This is no longer about justice, but it's about retaliation
and revenge. And that's a lesson for us today, because
many of us will say, oh, we, we thirst for justice,
(44:52):
but the truth is if we don't think
Do things God's way. What it ends up being is
retaliation and revenge. The Bible is certainly not against justice,
but justice or vengeance is ultimately to be given to
the Lord.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Yeah, so good, Mike. I love that you brought that up.
I think also too, just right in the first verses here,
you know, kind of on the vein of the Robert
Alter stuff, you know, it records that uh Sheam saw
Dinah and he took
And it's been put forward that the biblical author, you know,
whether it's Moses, we don't know, you know, for certain
who it is, is probably retelling.
(45:30):
The fall, where Eve sees and takes, and they actually
the the biblical authors do this multiple times, where the
children of Israel see Saul.
And so they take him and make him king. And
so again, that's like that intuitive kind of understanding of
what's going on. Oh, we've seen this story before, we've
(45:51):
heard these terms before, we should recognize this is a
bad thing. When humans being when human beings see for
themselves what is and judge for themselves what is good,
and take it, that is against God's commands. And so,
you know, we are to
Uh, esteem what is good according to what God says
is good. We are to receive, not to take for ourselves, right?
(46:12):
And so, even the way that the author words this,
we should understand is like, uh oh, not good, something
bad is happening here, so.
All right, Danny, thank you for your phone call today
here on Pastor's Perspective, 888-564-6173. Yolanda in Corona. You're next.
Thanks for calling in today. How can we help you?
(46:32):
Hi, how are you guys? Doing great, doing well. Great
hearing from you.
Thank you. Um, so I have a question. So I
heard this from another pastor that, um, me, my husband
and I will listen to online, and he was saying
today that today, June 30th, 2025 is an end of a,
it's a seven-year and prophetic cycle ending.
(46:54):
I, and if it is, what does that mean for
Christians and non-Christians? OK. Mike, have you heard about this
or what would you, do you wanna weigh in?
Speaker 2 (47:05):
No, I can't without hearing the what they're drawing off
of what they're referring to. Yeah, sorry, Chara you up
on that?
Speaker 1 (47:13):
Charts up on all that. So, no, I, Yolanda, do
you have a further explanation of kind of what the
seven years is referring to? 7 years of what?
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Is there
any texts, biblical texts they're referring to?
Speaker 1 (47:26):
He did not, well, he referred to a lot of texts,
I mean, a lot of texts in the Bible, but, um,
he was just referencing, you know, what's going on today,
you know, social injustice, um, a lot of wars and rumors.
You have, you know, a lot of political figures, you know,
just not only on just the United States, but I mean, worldwide,
you just have, you know, some nations' rights.
(47:46):
against nations and just saying like he was just saying
that this was an end of a seven-year, um, prophetic
cycle that heaven is speaking and that, you know, Christians
who hear this, you know, well, um, it's like a
time for us like a warning or to come into alignment,
you know, it's time to clean house and stuff like that.
(48:08):
Yeah, yeah, we're, we're only hearing that pastor like I
haven't heard it or, or, or from you guys or
just from any other pastor because I feel like if
that was, I'm, I'm not saying he's not lying, you know,
but I mean if.
I think how come all pastors are not talking about
it because a lot of times, I mean, if you,
I don't know if you noticed, but we noticed, you know,
(48:28):
like sometimes pastors, you guys are always on the same
accord every Sunday. Somebody's talking something into relevance about something,
but this time I, we don't hear that. Yeah, yeah,
and I do think that, yeah, that coincidence I think
is more to do that we're all pulling from the
same text, right? We are, um, we're teaching from God's word.
(48:49):
And what we find is, wow, he's not just the
god of the Jews, you know, living so long ago,
but he is the God who is present. He's the
God of all people, and he's alive and at work
in the world today. And Scripture is living, you know,
as it says, and powerful, sharp than any two-inch sword,
it's able to, you know, basically bring God's word from
then today right to our hearts. So, yeah, I mean,
(49:11):
I think that's why what's happened. That's why, you know,
that happens a week to week.
Yeah, I would just say, you know, Mike and I,
we've lived long enough and seen enough of these, you know,
prophetic leaders kind of come and go, and even within
Calvary Chapel, there have been pastors who have kind of
predicted things, you know, certain cycles and, you know, this prophetic,
(49:36):
you know, uh, passages being fulfilled and, and kind of
what I've seen is that none of these things really
ever come to pass.
And it and it seems to me, you know, what
Jesus is saying, when he's telling us about the end,
is that it will be like birth pains. Now, I
don't know if you have any children, if you've ever
given birth, but I've been present for 3, for my wife, uh,
(49:59):
you know, and, you know, the Braxton Hicks, right? The,
the birth pains before birth, it, it, it's like this flex,
you know, it's the muscles are getting ready to bear,
but it's not the actual birth.
And I think that this is what we see. We
see these things happening in the world, and man, they
are indications that man, things are wild, and it seems
like the end is near, and then things kind of
(50:21):
die down, you know.
And then all of a sudden it will, you know,
happen again. And so I think we see this cycle,
and we want to put a timeline to it.
Mhm. And I think unfortunately, what it ends up doing,
and I don't think this is intentional, it becomes a distraction.
And I am at least thankful that it sounds like
this pastor is saying, so we gotta get serious, because
(50:43):
I think, yes, that is what we are supposed to
be doing the whole time.
Being serious, taking the word of God seriously, taking our
faith and discipleship to Jesus seriously. And so I often
say this, when it comes to prophecy or prophetic timelines,
we should not be looking at the sky, we should
be looking at the person of Jesus. And what Jesus
(51:03):
calls us to is faithfulness, you know, not to, you know,
have an accurate timeline of prophetic predictions and their fulfillments.
But actually to be faithful when he comes, to be
doing the things that he told us to do all along.
And unfortunately, what I've seen is a pattern that pastors
make all this fuss about these things, and many people, actually,
(51:28):
what ends up happening rather than people getting serious, they
grow numb. It's like the boy who cried wolf, you know, like,
oh well, we've heard this again and again and again
and again.
And I think if we just would focus our time
as believers, our gatherings, our scatterings on faithfulness to the
way of Jesus, we would actually see more and more
(51:51):
ground taken for the kingdom of God. Mike
Chadwick.
Speaker 2 (51:55):
Yeah, I think it's important when a pastor makes any claim,
whether it's we're at the end of a seven-year cycle
or another pastor says, no, I disagree, we're in the
middle of a 14 year one. Either way, we should
be going to the Bible and saying, where does the
Bible say what you are saying? Act 17, it says
that the Bereans were more excellent than most because they
received the world with word with all eagerness and studied
(52:19):
the scriptures daily to make sure these things were true.
So I think what I would ask of of anyone,
especially with the prophetic, because I think what happens with
the quote unquote prophetic, if you use that word around
it and somebody presents themselves as a prophet or something.
People give them a pass on being grounded in biblical truth,
(52:40):
because you go, oh, well, it's prophetic. So I, you know, oh,
it must be right. I don't, I should not look
in the Bible and say, hey, wait a minute, you're
making that claim. OK, that's a claim. We're at the
end of a seminary. Now show me where in the
Bible you have permission to say that. Cause if you're
gonna speak for God, and you're not speaking for God,
that's a grave sin.
So show me where in the Bible, it says that
God is saying this. And then if they get, and
(53:01):
hopefully they have a reference or references, and if they do,
it's still your job to make sure the word is
being properly interpreted. So I could probably speak more specifically
to this if there were any texts that were being used,
but apart from that, I would just give the general admonition. OK,
you heard that, now go to the Bible, where does
it say that? Is that true?
Speaker 1 (53:23):
Yeah, I would just like to add we did go
to the Bible and we didn't see any like specific
like God saying, you know, hey, you know, this is
the end of a cycle, but I mean like we
just mentioned like 7 years, so we like, we know
that the number 7 is God completion number, you know,
so it's just kind of like, oh, OK, well maybe,
you know, I mean just, I just had a question.
(53:43):
We just, I just wanted your opinion and just your advice.
And just, you know, either way, I mean, my family,
we are, we're Christians, we love Jesus, you know, we've
been going to church for a long time, raising our
son up in faith, our, you know, our grandkids, our daughters, um,
you know, but I mean, again, we just, I just
took it as, OK, like, well, we just need to
do a little bit more. We need to get more
in the line, you know, so it just kind of
(54:04):
just put like how what we are already doing, you know,
just kind of like made me question a little bit
like
Maybe I need to do a little bit more. Sure.
Or like what's going on, you know, like he was
just talking about like the rapture. Mhm, yeah, yeah. Yeah,
I think, you know, Yolanda, on this note too, you know,
there is um an exhortation in the Old Testament.
(54:25):
About the work of prophets, and Mike was speaking to
this earlier, but it actually says that if a prophet
gives a prediction, and it does not come to pass,
you shall not listen to him. He is no prophet.
And in fact, according to the Old Testament, which we
are not under obligation to fulfill this, but that actually
that prophet was considered a false prophet and wants to
(54:48):
be stoned to death. And so, I just share that
for like,
The gravity of what God is saying here, like, there
are all sorts of people that claim things, you know, oh,
the Bible says this, the Bible says that. So I
love how Mike is just, you know, calling us to
be rooted in the scriptures, like, OK, what passage, what
are you talking about? What do you think that means?
(55:09):
But also,
If it means nothing, and if it doesn't come to pass,
don't listen to that person. That person should not have
any authority or platform in the church, if their prophetic
predictions keep failing, right? And and especially cannot be rooted
in the scriptures. 20 seconds, Mike.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
I think that's great ammunition, again, keep coming back to
the Bible, especially as a pastor preacher, I have no
authority to preach my own opinion or simply say things
that gets people's interest. I have to preach the revealed
word of God, the Bible.
Speaker 1 (55:43):
Good stuff, Yolanda. Thank you for your phone call today
on Pastor's Perspective. The Bereans were the original fact checkers.
How cool is that? We'll be back tomorrow here on
Pastor's Perspective. God bless you guys. Thanks for listening. Thanks
for watching. We're going to archive today's episode if you
want to watch or listen again or share with a friend.
Hello and welcome to the very last episode of Pastor's
Perspective this month. My name is Brian Perez. It is
June 30th, 888-564-6173 is the number to call us today
and we would love to chat with you. We're gonna
be in the studio for an hour and we would
love to get your questions about the Bible, the Christian faith,
just about anything that's on your mind. Maybe you went
(00:36):
to church yesterday and you heard your pastor say something
that made you scratch your head.
Or saw something on YouTube, which we always warn you
about those YouTube videos that are out there. But, uh,
give us a call. We'd love to talk to you
at 888-564-6173. And to answer your questions today, we've got
Char Broderson, the lead pastor of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa
(00:57):
in Southern California. Also joining us is Mike Chaddick, the
senior pastor of Image Church in San Juan Capistrano, California. Hey, gentlemen,
what's going on?
Hello, Brian and Michael. Good to see you. Hey
Speaker 2 (01:09):
guys, good to see you guys. Yes,
Speaker 1 (01:12):
good to have you guys here, ready to answer the
questions that our listeners call in with. You can also
send in your questions online. A few options there, you
can go to the Pastor's perspective Facebook page and use Messenger,
or you can DM us on the Pastor's Perspective Instagram.
That is what
Than he did when he sent in his question from
San Fernando, which is, good afternoon, pastors. I've been waiting
(01:35):
on God in my life. How do I know when
it's time to make a decision as a man versus
still waiting on God, because I know God isn't going
to move me like a robot? I have free will
and need to make a choice. Should I make a
decision as a man or keep waiting?
Now, of course, we don't know what Anthony's decision is, um,
which is why we prefer when you guys call us
(01:56):
if at all possible, so that we can dialogue about
these things. But Char, based on what you heard, what
would you say to Anthony? Yeah, I mean, this seems
to be just a question about, I mean, what is
God's will for my life and yeah, at what point
in time, you know, do I have to make actual
decisions for my life and, and how I work that out. And,
you know, we've addressed this a number of times before,
(02:16):
but I do think
That sometimes the way that we talk about the will
of God or the way that we understand the will
of God, is that, yeah, like there is some there
is just such specifics to it that it actually kind
of leaves us paralyzed. You know, we think like, oh,
like I, I have to ask God about everything, you know,
like from the breakfast I eat to what time I
(02:38):
should go to bed and, and there's some people that have,
I think, you know, unhealthily taken it to that extreme.
So, the scripture makes clear from the beginning, you know,
in the pages of Genesis, what God desires for humanity.
He has made them in his image, he has made
them for partnership, uh, he has made them to spread
(02:58):
his kingdom to the ends of the earth, and we
understand that the redemption that Jesus has brought is to
bring us back on track to that, to bear God's image,
to be in fellowship with him, to partner with him.
And to spread his kingdom to the end of the earth.
And the way that we do that is by following Jesus, right?
We be Jesus' disciples. He is the way, he is
the truth, He is the life. And so we learned
(03:19):
from him, um, how to live this human life and experience.
And I think sometimes what we're actually looking for is
for the Bible to answer the specifics of how we
live out our discipleship vocation, how we live out this
image bearing, but the Bible doesn't do that. It gives
us these principles to live by, and and it doesn't
(03:42):
give us, you know, a pathway, it gives us a person.
It gives us the person of Jesus Christ.
And we are to follow him. And so in our
lives or in my life, I guess what I like
to do is to think, OK, what would Jesus do
if he had my life? You know, and somebody might think, well,
he would be a pastor. Well, not necessarily. Jesus was
a carpenter for 30 years. He lived a very, you know,
(04:05):
human experience, you know, so, um, one, Christian author has
put it this way, you know, as we think about
God's will.
He says the place God calls you is the place
where your deep gladness, it's thinking about who you are,
the gifts that God has given you, the abilities, the
(04:25):
path that God has brought you along, and so your
experiences and perspective.
And then where that coincides with the world's deep need
or hunger. I think that is a great place to
start and think about, this is where God calls us
to be. And those places where we bring God's spirits, um,
God's goodness to the places of deep need in our world.
(04:48):
And so what God wants us to do is by
following Jesus, wants us to learn how to walk.
In the way of the spirit ourselves, to be able
to choose those things that are good, those things that
are true, those things that are um
Praiseworthy. And so, you know, for all of us as
(05:09):
disciples of Jesus, we are training in order to do that. So,
I feel like I'm a little bit all over the place.
So Mike, maybe you want to jump in a little bit.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, it, it is such an important and practical topic, right?
And I think
You know, the Bible makes clear what is right and
what is wrong.
But what do we do, and I think this is, again,
without knowing exactly what they're talking about, because there's a
big difference between serial and choosing a spouse. So depending
(05:40):
on what you're talking about, it, there, there is a
different level of questioning and thinking and, and praying and
all that that I would go through. If it's serial
like you said, and no joke, I think you might
remember at Bible College, there were well, well-meaning brothers and sisters.
I'm not, I'm not kidding our audience here.
That genuinely, like they're coming out of the world, they
(06:00):
distrusted themselves so greatly because of their sinful past, that
they genuinely wanted to please God in every area of life, including,
and not limited to the choices of cereal they ate
in the cafeteria. I'm not even kidding. I, I had
conversations about that, and I think the heart is beautiful, right?
Like wanting to glorify God and everything. How wonderful is that.
(06:23):
But should every decision as small as cereal be something
where we're weighing, you know, oh my gosh, you know,
do I, does, do I need a word from God
and what cereal to eat and that kind of stuff.
And I think, you know, Paul gives us sort of the,
the answer, and whatever you do, whether you eat or drink,
do all to the glory of God. So that's sort
of the big thing. Can I do what I'm doing
(06:44):
to the glory of God? That's like, I think one
of the most practical questions.
You can ask before you do anything, whether it's small
or whether it's great, if you can do it to
the glory of God, and obviously informed by what biblical
says the glory of God is and what it looks like,
then I think that's a great simple guide.
But I think what the Bible does too, besides making
(07:05):
explicitly clear what is right and what is wrong, there
are things in life, and I hate to say gray area,
but it's just sort of in in the middle, the
Bible doesn't say it's right, nor does it say it's wrong.
It's just something that is a situation.
That people encounter in life. And what do you do there?
And I think it's good to remember because I think
(07:25):
some Christians, they, they think, you know, the Bible just
is black and white about everything. Well, if that were true,
we wouldn't need wisdom. We wouldn't need the wisdom literature
of the Bible, and the wisdom literature of the Bible
is there is to help.
Help us to navigate life successfully to the glory of God.
That's what it's there for. And wisdom is needed precisely
(07:48):
in those sort of whatever you want to call it
gray area in between. I it's, it's, I don't even
want to say gray area because that's, oh, it's a
mix of good men. No, no, it's just, it's something
that is not explicitly right or wrong, such as choosing
a serial. I don't think anyone would say choosing.
You know, trick cereal is inherently wrong, although for your stomach, it,
it might be, I don't know, but it's one of
(08:08):
those things where how do we navigate our choices and
then
I think it depends on the seriousness of the issue, right? Uh,
depending on how consequential it is, how serious it is, then,
of course, I would encourage someone to seek out counsel.
The Bible says, in a multitude of counselors, there is wisdom,
so there's gonna be situations serious enough to where we
(08:28):
go to trusted people, and I think particularly about spiritual things,
about our own walks with God in relation to a choice,
talking to Christians, godly men and women.
I think that's who we should go to. On the
other hand, I think the Bible acknowledges there can be
wisdom in, you know, for example, if you need financial wisdom,
(08:49):
I wouldn't necessarily go to a Christian who's the sweetest guy,
sweetest woman, but they have
Zero knowledge of financial matters. They, they do not handle
their money well. I would go to somebody who that's
their life, that's their career, they've done it successfully and
get advice from them on, you know, what I should
do or not do as far as investing in the future.
(09:10):
So I think there's different levels. One thing I think
everyone should do, and this shouldn't just be like college
or seminary, is take an ethics course.
And the reason for that is not that you'll be
somebody who has to weigh in on everything, but just
going through the different systems of ethics that are used
to make decisions is actually helpful in daily life. For example,
(09:33):
there's what's called erotaic ethics, and that basically means this,
asking what kind of person will I become if I
make this decision.
I think that's a wonderful thing to ask as a
follower of Jesus. Deontology, taking just rules, like blanket rules
and say, hey, is this always wrong? If it is,
then obviously it doesn't matter how bad I wanna do it.
(09:54):
I don't do it. So there's, you know, utilitarianism, while
not good as a system. Nevertheless, the idea of considering consequences.
If I do this, what are the potential consequences and
whom might it impact in a positive or negative way.
But I'll, I'll wrap it up here to go back
to the beginning to Genesis. One thing I think that
(10:15):
paralyzes Christians, Char was talking about the paralysis by analysis.
In the beginning,
Notice God did not tell Adam and Eve which trees
to eat from.
He said, which one not to eat from, and then
he said, of all these trees plural, you may freely eat.
Whatever is good, you pick, and I think some of
(10:35):
us would be like, wait, God, wait, which of the
good ones? Which, wait, wait, the one on 3rd from
the left? No, God just said, look, here is a
garden of delight.
I've made a beautiful world and it was almost like
it delights God for Adam and Eve to make the choice,
and God is watching. Oh, which good tree are you
gonna pick first? So all the good is available to
Adam and Eve. God clearly marked off, hey, there's one
(10:58):
you can't eat from the rest is your choice. So
I think we even have a model.
There of the idea that again, I think God gives
us freedom to make choices regarding things that are good,
and we trust His sovereignty and His providence. Even if
it wasn't the best decision, he'll get us where he
wants us to go.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Yeah, Dallas Willard, he had this um
Kind of analysis that he used. It was really interesting.
He talks about how people that have a rule for everything, uh,
actually grow, you know, they, they're just anemic. They never
grow in deep character. And I think some of us
have just traded, you know, kind of an Old Testament
(11:36):
law for a New Testament law, you know, do not touch,
do not taste, do not handle. And Paul says clearly
that none of this is actually going to help you
in any way overcome the flesh. And I think what
the New Testament gives us is a new vision, right?
Like the vision is love God with all your heart,
so mind and strength, love your neighbor as yourself. But
you and I, we actually have to work out what
(11:57):
that looks like in our lives, like, because Mike, I
don't have your life and you don't have my life,
and I actually don't have Jesus's life in the sense
of living in, you know, first century Judea and the,
you know, cultural context that he was in. So I've
got to think, OK, what does it look like to
love God.
As, you know, a married individual who's 42, living in 2025,
(12:20):
what does it look like, you know, to love and
steward my children? What does it look like to love
my neighbor? I have to think through.
You know, through from the biblical vision, what this might
look like in my life, and then I have to
engage it. And as I do, I actually grow in
the way of the spirit, because I'm assimilating God's commandments
(12:43):
into my life. They're becoming a living reality, and not just,
you know, a box that I check because, well, OK, well,
it said, you know, jump this high, do this many push-ups,
and I did it, and so, and so I, I
think we really need to
Consider this, that this is actually what the New Testament
is envisioning. It is envisioning partnership, discipleship, apprenticeship. God actually
(13:06):
wants us to make decisions for ourselves based upon the
wisdom of scripture, based upon Christ example, follow in His way.
Use his life as a map for your life.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, wasn't it Augustin who said that it's very jarring
and it almost makes you kind of freak out, but
he said, love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul,
and strength, and do whatever you want. And I think
we hear that last part and we freak out, right? Well, no,
before I was a Christian, I did whatever I want.
Hold on. Listen to what Augustin said first. Love the
Lord with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. And
(13:43):
if you do that, I think what he's talking about
is what you just said, Char, there's that freedom.
To enter into a living personal relationship with Jesus, you know,
and you're walking in the spirit, which again is, is
something that it's not, uh, Jesus John 3, the, the
spirit's moving is not predictable. We wish it was. Jesus says,
you hear the sound of the wind, you know, but
(14:05):
you don't know where it's coming from or where it's going.
So is the one who's born of the spirit. You're,
you're not in control, and I think sometimes as Christians.
We can almost study the Bible because we want to
get in control. Like we wanna be able to, and I,
and I'll be, I'll be the first to admit it.
Like I, for years, even in my studies, I was
kind of hoping if I just read everything, studied everything,
(14:28):
you know, this, that and the other, somehow I would
just know the answers to things before they happened. And
the truth is that never, that never came.
There's all, and I think there's a reason for that. There's,
there's that fundamental temptation in man, which I think is
actually the fundamental temptation in the Garden of Eden Eden,
which is to know rather than to trust.
(14:48):
And it's one of those things where, you know, cause like,
even the idea of defining good and evil. Well, they
don't even know what evil is at this point. So
I don't even think that's the fundamental sin. It's to
know rather than the trust. That's their choice. We can
trust God that these trees over here are good and
that one's not, or we can try to find out
on our own. And I think so developing that trust
(15:09):
and living relationship with Jesus Christ through the Spirit is
what life is all about.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Anthony, thank you for sending in your question through the
pastor's perspective Facebook messenger, and now we're going to go
to the phones. 888-564-6173 is our number. We've got Char
Broderson and Mike Chaddick here to answer your questions at 888-564-6173.
And here is JJ who is calling in from San
Juan Capistrano listening on the Kwave app. Hello, JJ, thanks
(15:39):
for downloading the app and thanks for calling in today.
Uh, hi, um,
Speaker 2 (15:43):
I was just,
Speaker 1 (15:44):
uh, my question today was, um,
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Like there's a little bit of context between this ques
behind this question, but uh like I was wondering if
um communion, but how, how seriously should I take that
because uh
Uh, my friend, we invited them to church, and I'm,
I'm not really sure on where they stand with the Lord,
and uh they were passing out communion and I saw
(16:11):
her take it, and I, I, like I said, I'm
not sure where she stands, so I didn't know if
I should speak up and be like, you shouldn't take
that because of the Bible, and it says in 1
Corinthians 11:20.
25? Oh, no, no. For 11:29, sorry.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
So for anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the
body eats and drinks judgment on himself. So like to
me that just seems very serious, you know. So yeah,
so that that's pretty much my question.
OK, sure, what would you tell JJ? Yeah, I mean,
I think specifically just to go back to First Corinthians,
what Paul is dealing with here is you have a
(16:50):
community that is actually
You know, like you said, they are Christians, and they
are actually not discerning what this communion meal is all about.
And Paul says he knows that because the way that
they are living so selfishly. So the act of communion, right,
is to remember Christ sacrifice his self sacrifice his self-giving
(17:15):
love for us. And so what we do is, as
we eat,
This is an act of identity, an act of aligning ourself, uh,
becoming one with Jesus. We're saying, Jesus, we are with you.
We are with your way of being, your way of living,
your way of sacrifice. And Paul is saying, you're actually
(17:36):
making a mockery of this by the way that you live.
And so you come to this communion meal and you
just do it without actually thinking about what it means.
And so he says, because of this, there is judgment,
some are sick, some are dying among you, and so
he wants them to
You know, think deeply about what this meal means, and
(17:58):
he wants them to adjust their lifestyle. And so, I
think that's the context from which, you know, this exhortation
comes out of, and I think when we think about
our gatherings on, you know, Sunday morning or whenever the
church gathers, and we observe communion, I think there's some
things that we have done that don't give us the
opportunity to do what Paul is doing. And I actually
(18:20):
think one of those is that we just pass out communion.
Um, what we've changed at our gathering is that we
actually have, we invite people to come to the table.
It's a decision to come to this table and to
align yourself with the Lord Jesus Christ. So we're immediately
giving that opportunity like, OK, do I align with Jesus?
(18:45):
Do I want to align with Jesus?
And because we do it this way, it actually allows
an opportunity for unbelievers to say,
Hey
What you're saying in this teaching is actually deeply resonating
with me. I want to align with what Jesus did
there at the cross. And so we actually use the
(19:07):
communion meal as an invitation.
To life in Jesus. But I think because we invite
people to come forward and make that decision themselves.
You know, we have an opportunity for that. I think
it's a whole different thing when you're just passing out
communion and you're not explaining what it is. I think
(19:28):
you're in danger of doing what the Corinthians did, right?
You're just observing this just as a ritual. It's just,
oh well, this is just a thing we do at
the end, you know, we eat this little cracker, we
drink this little drink and we go our merry way.
And so for us every week, we actually take a moment.
Um, and our teaching actually leads into the time of communion.
(19:49):
This is the moment for the church to come home
to Jesus, to align with Jesus, to turn from our sin,
to turn from our selfishness, and turn back to Jesus.
This is an opportunity for those who do not identify
with Jesus to actually confess their sins and to find
themselves in Jesus.
And so, I think we should take communion very seriously,
(20:12):
and I think that begins by the way that we
explain and the way that we actually observe it together.
What do you say to someone who says, well, people
are only going up at the end of the service.
Almost like a form of peer pressure, because they came
with people and they don't want to be looked at as, oh,
that person doesn't want to align with Jesus. Look over there. So, yeah,
(20:34):
I mean, I, yeah, I, of course, that could happen.
We leave space at the end of every single one
of my teachings, I leave a space where I explain
what the communion table is, who it is for. It
is for followers of Jesus, and then I often will say,
but if you are here,
And what I'm saying resonates with you. Jesus actually invites
(20:54):
you to this table as well. And this is a
table over there is forgiveness of sin, but there's a
whole new way to live as we ingest the life
of Jesus, we say, I'm with you. And so we want,
you know, and so we use that as an opportunity
for salvation. We use that as an opportunity for follow
up with those who have committed themselves to Jesus. So yeah,
that's what I would say, Mike.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Yeah, I agree with both JJ and Char communion should
be taken seriously. I think the question is, you know,
how do you go about that? First of all, how
do you communicate that it's serious and how do you
enforce it? Uh, those, those are two, you know, important
practical questions. So we do the exact same thing.
As Charles Church, so we don't pass out. We used
(21:37):
to do that. I grew up doing that at Calvary
Costa Mesa when I worked there under Pastor Chuck, we
passed it out. That's how we did it. I don't
think that's wrong. I don't think that makes people not
take it seriously per se. Um, it was our view, again,
on more the practical note.
That I think it lends maybe a little more. I mean,
we're talking about peer pressure. I think if it's literally
(21:59):
getting passed and the person sitting shoulder to shoulder with you, see,
so you, you, you declined to take it or whatever.
I think it's kind of like force fed, right? It's
sort of just shoved in your face, whereas what Char
is saying is exactly our thinking. At least the person
has to make a deliberate effort. They've literally got to
stand up out of their seat, make their way to
one of the far sides of the room.
(22:20):
And, you know, sometimes wait behind people and take the
elements and come back and we explain, we always refer
to our closing set of worship as a time of response,
and we explain what that means that this is an
opportunity you've heard the voice of the living God speaking
through his living word, but we don't want it to
go in one ear and out the other. This is
an opportunity to
(22:41):
Align yourself with the message of the gospel, of course,
that's what is so beautiful about the Lord's table and
why what the Corinthians was doing is so tragic. The
Lord's table is supposed to be a place of unity.
It's where God's people are united, because of course, as Christians,
we disagree with other Christians and denominations on many, many,
many things, secondary things. What about this thing over here?
(23:02):
What about that thing?
But by definition, to be a Christian, you must be
in Christ, and you're in Christ through the gospel, through
Christ's finished work upon the on the cross, His atoning death,
his resurrection, the gift and regeneration of the Holy Spirit.
So, it's supposed to be a time of unity, and
for the Corinthians, they were dividing the church. The rich
(23:23):
were coming early, eating all the food, drinking all the wine,
then the poor day laborers would show up and it's
all empty. So there was class warfare going on, there
was division, and I think quite ironically, I've seen many
people who say, oh, I take communion seriously.
But meanwhile, they're tweeting all week long or posting on
social media, tearing other brothers and Christians down and dividing
(23:46):
the body of Christ, and they show up and take communion,
but that's actually more akin to what Paul was warning
against in Corinthians, specifically against dividing the body.
Of Christ, not discerning it. And by the way, there's,
there's a play there with the word, the body, we think,
oh well, Jesus' body on the cross, which of course,
it refers to that, but the church is called the
body of Christ as well, and sinning against a brother
(24:08):
or sister, Jesus talked about this in the Gospels, if
you have something against a brother, and you're bringing a
gift to the altar, what did he say to do?
Set the gift down, go make things right, be reconciled
to your brother, then come forward. So, we don't say
this every week because this, this could become a sermon
in and of itself, to be honest with you. But
like we'll say, if you've sinned against someone in the church,
(24:28):
you've been harboring this, and you were planning on coming here,
taking communion like it never happened, you may wanna go.
Approach that person. Maybe you just need to say, I'm,
I'm so sorry I, I said that. I'm sorry, you know,
just like, let's take it seriously by honoring the unity
of the body of Christ. And then on the, on
the enforcement part, so how do you know whether someone
(24:49):
is serious in their heart or not? Like JJ, I
think you mentioned now, I know a person and so
you kind of know their life, but as pastors, I'm
not gonna know what everybody's doing Monday through Saturday and
things that are going on and
Then you get into formal church membership like the Puritans, uh,
they were really involved with people's lives. I think in
some ways it was good, in some ways it was
(25:10):
a little, little scary, almost might be a little bit stalkerish,
but
Today's standards, but I mean, they would really be involved
in your life, like come to your house, see what's
going on in your house, inspect it, so your, your
family relationships are right, and if they didn't like how
things were going, they would forbid communion, but then they'd
keep a roll and all that. And so, I, I
think on a practical note, it's actually a difficult thing
(25:31):
to do. So what we call people to do is
take personal responsibility. Like, you're, hopefully you're, you know, if
I'm speaking to adults, be an adult, take responsibility.
And be serious about the Lord's body.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Yeah. Very good. JJ, does this help you?
Uh, yeah, it does, yeah. Uh,
Speaker 2 (25:51):
it's just the one small thing I just wanted to clarify, like,
cause I do know this person personally, and we have
like these like, you know, discussions about Christ and like philosophy.
So I'm just like,
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I don't know if they should be taking it like
would it be like legalistic of me to be in like,
like pointing that out to them, or? Yeah,
I think for somebody. Now, is this
Speaker 2 (26:11):
person a Christian?
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I'm sorry. No, you're good, Mike.
Uh, a Christian, uh, I like, they, they call themselves spiritual,
like I would call them like a new leader, you know,
more than a Christian. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2 (26:23):
I would definitely advise the conversation. I don't I don't
think that's legalistic or wrong at all. Like, honestly, if,
if I thought, let me put myself in your shoes.
If I had a friend visiting my church or coming
to my church, and, and I knew they, like, either A,
I knew they weren't actually followers of Jesus, or B,
they kind of said they were, but they live like
(26:44):
hell all week long or something like that, I would
definitely say something, you know, because what they're doing also
is deceiving themselves.
That's the thing too. It's not just that you're, you know,
you're making mockery of that course, died even Christ died
for people who were mocking him, which, again, the incredible
depths of the grace and love of God, but on,
on our end, I certainly, not in a condemning way,
(27:08):
but I would definitely for the sake of their soul,
I would certainly want to know if they understand what
they're doing.
And the significance of that, and if they're not truly
entering into the gospel and receiving by faith the work
of Christ, it's actually, as Paul says in First Corinthians,
keeping judgment on themselves. Like I would actually say it
(27:29):
would be better for you to be honest and not
partake than to be dishonest and partake.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Sorry.
Yeah, I'm just thinking about, you know, I think that
this might be an opportunity, JJ, for you to also
just talk to your church leadership, you know, about, hey,
you know, we take this together and, you know, there
are actually people here who are not Christians, they're seekers,
and they're here with curiosity. It'd be really great if
we actually had an explanation, you know, for the congregation
of the significance of what we are doing here and
(27:57):
who it's for.
Uh, why we do it? And then, you know, if
you want to add this piece for those who are outsiders,
that this is a moment to reconsider their lives, and
ask that question, do I want to follow Jesus? Do
I wanna, you know, join the community of faith and
be unified with them. Uh, so I think that there
might be an opportunity there. Um, the question of
(28:22):
Yeah, like, does an outsider, somebody who is not a believer,
drinking these things, taking the, you know, the meal, does
that drink or bring judgment upon them? Like, I don't know, I'm,
I'm curious about that, Mike, because I think, like Paul
is addressing like a hypocrisy that God is judging among
his people that are doing this. And so I don't
(28:43):
know if there's more the judgment on that person's part,
but just the ignorance. So I do think there's an
opportunity for JJ just
Yeah, as a friend who's bringing a friend along and
they're curious, seeking, I think there's a great opportunity just
to talk about what this actually means for Christians, why
they do it, uh, the significance of the sacrifice of Jesus,
(29:03):
our personal participation in it as followers of Jesus and
why we don't believe that outsiders, you know, people that
don't believe and don't follow Jesus, uh, should be taking it, so.
Very true. But then there's also if something should happen
to JJ's friend, like she gets a stomach ache or something,
not to be, uh-huh, it's the Lord's judgment on you for,
(29:26):
I mean, that may not be like in the back
of my head, yeah, like I don't know, like because
some of this can sound like it's like, oh yeah,
you know, little incantation, you know, like, oh, drink this,
this thing's gonna happen to you. I think, OK, that's
not what Paul's actually talking about here. That's a very
specific thing of God judging his own people for.
The hypocrisy and injustices that they're committing. So yeah, break
(29:49):
time on Pastor's perspective. JJ, thank you for your phone
call today. We're gonna take more calls. 888-564-6173 is the number.
We've got Char Broderson and Mike Chaddick here for another
half hour, and we'd love to hear from you. 888-564-6173.
(30:15):
We're back on Pastor's Perspective. Thanks so much for listening
today and for watching as well on Facebook, YouTube, and Instagram.
We're gonna go back to the phones now, 888-564-6173 is
the number to call. I'm Brian Perez here with Char
Broderson the
Pastor of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, and also with Mike Chaddick,
the senior pastor of Image Church in San Juan Capistrano.
(30:39):
And here is Fred, who is calling in from Riverside
listening on FM 107.9K wave. Hey, Fred, how can we
help you?
Hi, yes, um, I had a question, um, I had a, uh,
a brother in Christ, and, um, it's actually his question, um,
cause I didn't know it actually happened. I guess there
(30:59):
was a, uh, incident in the Middle East where, um,
a guy came in, um, in the church and during
a church service, and he kind of shot everybody up
and then he blew himself up there and he killed
like 24 people. And then they said that, um,
Uh, I guess a family member said it's too dangerous
(31:19):
for us to come back and, um, here to church.
So my question is, when is it, um, when is
it time to kind of, uh, pick up stakes or, um,
should we stay, you know, stay firm and, um, you know, uh,
whatever God has, you know, for us is, you know,
(31:42):
it's gonna be, it's gonna happen. Yeah.
Yeah, well.
I mean, these are
I mean, just to be honest, these are issues that
we really have no idea about in the US. I mean,
you know, here and there we will have these kind
of incidents that happen, uh, but most of the time
(32:02):
they're not due to, you know, they're not the result
of persecution of Christians or to do with, you know,
some upset member of the congregation and of the community, um,
mental health issues and things like that. Um, and so yeah,
you know,
When is the Christian witness? When does it flee a
(32:22):
certain area, go underground, those things, I mean, I think
we would just have to consult church history on these
things and think about what the faithful have done for
thousands of years in these places where, uh, Christians have
been persecuted in places like India and China, and of
course the Middle East, um.
And I think what we find is, um, man, like
(32:46):
God in His grace and in His goodness, he strengthens
a remnant to be there, to be his faithful witnesses,
even through incredibly difficult times.
And yeah, reminds them of his presence through it all,
his own way that he walked, and the reward that
(33:07):
he has waiting. And I think, you know, when we
read the message to the churches,
Of revelation. I mean, it's really interesting. I mean, there,
Jesus is speaking to many of them and he's saying
be faithful to death.
Be faithful to the very end, that's the call. And
the end for them might look like, yeah, you just
live out your years of, you know, testifying to the
(33:29):
life of Jesus through your life, through your words, through
your actions, uh, for others, it is, uh, testifying at
the stake, testifying in the Colosseum, you know, uh, testifying
literally on pain of death that Jesus Christ is Lord
and Caesar is not.
And so I think, you know, these, um these are
stories that Christians have told throughout history, you know, a
(33:52):
martyr uh means a witness, right? And the, the church
has witnessed throughout history, uh, the reality of the kingdom
of God and the transience of all other kingdoms. And so,
you know, I say this in all humility. I have
not experienced persecution like this. I personally
Uh, don't have any, um, you know, understanding of the
(34:15):
personal cost that that takes, and yet I know the
stories of many faithful men and women, even, you know,
friends of mine who live in very difficult places where
it is very costly to follow Jesus and to worship
him publicly. Yeah, Mike.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Yeah, that's a tough one, and I honestly, I mean,
I think it goes back to what we spoke of
earlier in making decisions, how do we as Christians make
decisions and as a normative matter.
Obviously, participation in the church community is, is a part
of faithfulness to Jesus. It's a part of what it is. Obviously,
there's exceptions. If somebody is sick and in the hospital,
(34:55):
you shouldn't be making them feel bad for forsaking the
assembling of ourselves together when they're hooked up to a
machine or something. I, I think some people don't realize
there's a difference between a normative and an absolute condition.
Normatively when you can, you go, you participate, it's part
of your walk. Obviously, there's seasons and times people are
unable to do that.
I think one resource we have actually in Scripture is
(35:19):
that 1 may faithfully seek and pursue Jesus, be in
prayer and fasting, and make two different decisions on the
same thing. For example, in Acts chapter 8, due to persecution,
for example, for those who would argue, nope, all Christians
should stay and die as martyrs. Well, that's not what
happened in Acts 8. As a matter of fact, most
of the church, actually, the text says, all but the
(35:41):
apostles fled. They ran for their lives.
Some people say, oh, that's cowardice, but what was the result?
They took the gospel with them and they went everywhere
preaching the gospel and ironically,
God used persecution to get them to do what he
told them to do anyway. He wanted them to be
witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth,
(36:02):
but the fellowship was so sweet and great, they didn't
want to go. They didn't want to fulfill the great commission.
God allowed that persecution to cause them to go, but
on the flip side, the apostles felt, nope, if we
need to die here, we'll die here, we are called
to stay.
Um, you see this with the apostle Paul. Somebody actually
threw this out to me the other day that, you know,
even if a Christian thinks they're gonna die, going they
(36:24):
should just do it anyway, we shouldn't be fair. Well,
once again, it's something to be prayed over because the
apostle Paul himself actually fled for his life. At times,
people forget this. Yes, there were times where Paul was
willing to die, stood there, you know, was apparently stoned
to death.
You know, he, he eventually was killed, but you know what,
Paul was also let down and warned of an assassination plot,
(36:46):
and he was let down over a wall in a
basket in the middle of the night. You could have said, Paul,
why are you running? Stay and die like Mart. Well,
apparently Paul did not feel led to do that at
that time in that place.
So, I think, uh, by the way, this is where
the big division between the Christian Church and Judaism took
place in 70 AD. Many people don't realize that most
Christians fled Jerusalem. They did not feel called to stay.
(37:09):
They did not feel bound to Jerusalem. Many interpreted the
Olivet discourse is actually coming into play right then, as Titus,
as they saw this, you know, Titus marching in, and
he's gonna defile Jerusalem. They fled to the mountains and
the hills and all that, and many within the Jewish
community that stayed in Jerusalem.
Saw the Christians as abandoning their post, and then that
(37:29):
was sort of what historians mark is probably the great
historic break uh between Christianity and Judaism that has never
been bridged to this very day. So I think we
have biblical and historical examples of Christians on the one hand, staying.
Going to a place where they know they could be
killed for participating in the fellowship and others fled, I
(37:52):
guess the one qualification I could make, if one does
feel called to flee or whatever, I mean, it should
be 2 something.
Right, it's not just fleeing from danger, but where does
God want? How does the mission of Jesus continue in
my life? If not here, my question is then where?
And I think as a, as Christians, we ought to
be able to answer that.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Yeah, it's interesting too. I mean, Mike, as you pointed out,
like Paul will flee, you know, uh down from the basket,
he'll be, you know, sneak away in Lystra, right? He's
stoned and then he moves on to Corinth, and he
waits for Timothy, um.
Interesting, even at the end of his life, when he
does go to Jerusalem. Remember there's a prophecy given.
And everybody is telling him the prophecy means don't go,
(38:36):
and he's saying, actually, the prophecy is a confirmation for me.
It's personal. Nobody else understands, but Paul knows by the
spirit that that actually is confirmation of his call that
he is going to Jerusalem, and this will mean imprisonment.
It will mean suffering. So, yeah, I think that that's
such a helpful text to understand, yeah, like,
(38:58):
Sometimes faithfulness means to stay, sometimes faithfulness means to go,
and this is something that we need to discern as
followers of Jesus.
Great conversation today, Fred. Thanks for your phone call. 888-564-6173
is our number. And now let's go to Danny, who
is listening to us in Covina. Hey, Danny, how can
(39:19):
we help you today?
My pastors.
Uh, I had a question, was the killing of the
men of Cheam by Levi and Simeon a righteous killing
or was it a self-indulgent, uh,
Revenge killing, because
God was gonna kill, or he actually plagued Pharaoh for
(39:41):
taking Sarah.
He would have killed all the Egyptians there had they
touched her.
And Abimelek, he said, you're a dead man because you
took Sarah.
And uh when it came to Rebecca,
Even a Bemelek said, you brought guilt on us because
(40:02):
you told us she was your sister and she wasn't,
so anybody who touches this woman, they're dead.
So, now that they uh they actually raped Dinah.
They went further
So, that wiped out the whole people, but this was
(40:26):
based on between Levi and and Simeon.
tricking, uh, uh.
All that people saying that circumcised and they went off
and went to hell on him. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Danny,
I just wanna say, I think you've got your answer,
and I just want to commend you, like you're reading
the scripture and you're picking up on the themes that
(40:48):
are going on here. And I think, yeah, what you're
noticing is this pattern of God's protection over Abraham and
his family, because they are the vehicle through which he's
gonna bring Messiah, redemption into the world.
And God's faithfulness, even when, you know, evil tyrants do things,
you know, flex their power, right? Afflict the righteous that
(41:09):
God steps in, you know, this is where the Psalms say,
you know, touch not, you know, my anointed, do my
prophets no harm. We see this happening in the story
of Abraham and his family, and so when it comes
to this story, you're kind of wondering like, oh, what's
gonna happen?
And you see Simeon Simeon and Levi step in and
take matters into their own hands. And I think the
(41:30):
author is expecting us to arrive at the conclusion that
you are arriving at. This is unrighteous. This they went
so far above and beyond of what true righteousness actually is,
of what true justice is, and I think we can
even see this in in two more, well, specifically.
(41:52):
When we come later to Jacob's dealing out of blessings
and inheritance, right? Simeon and Levi are scattered in Israel,
and this story specifically is referenced. It is their wrath.
That is referenced here. This is not according to the
(42:14):
will of God. Jacob recognizes that this is not according
to the way of the Abrahamic righteousness that God has
laid out earlier in the story.
And I think the fascinating thing of all of this
is the theme that you pointed out earlier, Danny, we
see God's protection over Jacob at the end of the story,
even though.
Right? So, I think we are to conclude that God
(42:37):
would have dealt with Shekum and these people in his
own way, according to his righteousness, because we see, you know,
even though Levi and Simeon have stepped out and done this,
they've made Jacob and the family it just stench to
everybody in the land, God puts a protection.
Over Jacob and his descendants, and a fear among the people,
(42:58):
so that no one harms them. And so I think
you see again, God's protective hand over them as we've
seen in the past in the story. Yeah, Mike Chaddock.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Yeah, I think, you know, again, um,
A great book, uh, on how to read biblical narratives
written by Robert Alter called The Art of Biblical narrative.
And one of the things is, uh, that's unique about
biblical narrative is many times the narrator doesn't explicitly tell
you whether uh an action was right or wrong. It
(43:27):
sort of leaves you to understand through various indicators what
the results were, what the outcomes are, etc. And not
only that, but their stories are complex, just like real life.
And so there was
There was something right and something wrong in actually what
Levi and Simeon did, because keep in mind, was it
right that Jacob did nothing about his daughter's rape? Doesn't
(43:50):
the biblical narrative later indicate the same thing with David?
What was the reason Absalom hated his father David so much?
It was the same thing, his permissiveness in allowing his
sister to be raped.
So there was a, a thirst for justice. It was
not meant, it was not met in a godly way,
which is part of why God does establish the eye
(44:11):
for eye, tooth for tooth, etc. The goal is that,
even that verse, many people think it sounds like revenge. No,
it's about justice, because what would happen, of course, in
the ancient world, is that revenge instead of justice takes place.
When you deny justice, very often you don't get nothing.
You get revenge. And so while something should have been done,
(44:32):
and it seems that Jacob Aird, by doing nothing, it
seems David erred by doing nothing, but then, of course,
same thing with Absalom, right? They both go above and beyond.
This is no longer about justice, but it's about retaliation
and revenge. And that's a lesson for us today, because
many of us will say, oh, we, we thirst for justice,
(44:52):
but the truth is if we don't think
Do things God's way. What it ends up being is
retaliation and revenge. The Bible is certainly not against justice,
but justice or vengeance is ultimately to be given to
the Lord.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Yeah, so good, Mike. I love that you brought that up.
I think also too, just right in the first verses here,
you know, kind of on the vein of the Robert
Alter stuff, you know, it records that uh Sheam saw
Dinah and he took
And it's been put forward that the biblical author, you know,
whether it's Moses, we don't know, you know, for certain
who it is, is probably retelling.
(45:30):
The fall, where Eve sees and takes, and they actually
the the biblical authors do this multiple times, where the
children of Israel see Saul.
And so they take him and make him king. And
so again, that's like that intuitive kind of understanding of
what's going on. Oh, we've seen this story before, we've
(45:51):
heard these terms before, we should recognize this is a
bad thing. When humans being when human beings see for
themselves what is and judge for themselves what is good,
and take it, that is against God's commands. And so,
you know, we are to
Uh, esteem what is good according to what God says
is good. We are to receive, not to take for ourselves, right?
(46:12):
And so, even the way that the author words this,
we should understand is like, uh oh, not good, something
bad is happening here, so.
All right, Danny, thank you for your phone call today
here on Pastor's Perspective, 888-564-6173. Yolanda in Corona. You're next.
Thanks for calling in today. How can we help you?
(46:32):
Hi, how are you guys? Doing great, doing well. Great
hearing from you.
Thank you. Um, so I have a question. So I
heard this from another pastor that, um, me, my husband
and I will listen to online, and he was saying
today that today, June 30th, 2025 is an end of a,
it's a seven-year and prophetic cycle ending.
(46:54):
I, and if it is, what does that mean for
Christians and non-Christians? OK. Mike, have you heard about this
or what would you, do you wanna weigh in?
Speaker 2 (47:05):
No, I can't without hearing the what they're drawing off
of what they're referring to. Yeah, sorry, Chara you up
on that?
Speaker 1 (47:13):
Charts up on all that. So, no, I, Yolanda, do
you have a further explanation of kind of what the
seven years is referring to? 7 years of what?
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Is there
any texts, biblical texts they're referring to?
Speaker 1 (47:26):
He did not, well, he referred to a lot of texts,
I mean, a lot of texts in the Bible, but, um,
he was just referencing, you know, what's going on today,
you know, social injustice, um, a lot of wars and rumors.
You have, you know, a lot of political figures, you know,
just not only on just the United States, but I mean, worldwide,
you just have, you know, some nations' rights.
(47:46):
against nations and just saying like he was just saying
that this was an end of a seven-year, um, prophetic
cycle that heaven is speaking and that, you know, Christians
who hear this, you know, well, um, it's like a
time for us like a warning or to come into alignment,
you know, it's time to clean house and stuff like that.
(48:08):
Yeah, yeah, we're, we're only hearing that pastor like I
haven't heard it or, or, or from you guys or
just from any other pastor because I feel like if
that was, I'm, I'm not saying he's not lying, you know,
but I mean if.
I think how come all pastors are not talking about
it because a lot of times, I mean, if you,
I don't know if you noticed, but we noticed, you know,
(48:28):
like sometimes pastors, you guys are always on the same
accord every Sunday. Somebody's talking something into relevance about something,
but this time I, we don't hear that. Yeah, yeah,
and I do think that, yeah, that coincidence I think
is more to do that we're all pulling from the
same text, right? We are, um, we're teaching from God's word.
(48:49):
And what we find is, wow, he's not just the
god of the Jews, you know, living so long ago,
but he is the God who is present. He's the
God of all people, and he's alive and at work
in the world today. And Scripture is living, you know,
as it says, and powerful, sharp than any two-inch sword,
it's able to, you know, basically bring God's word from
then today right to our hearts. So, yeah, I mean,
(49:11):
I think that's why what's happened. That's why, you know,
that happens a week to week.
Yeah, I would just say, you know, Mike and I,
we've lived long enough and seen enough of these, you know,
prophetic leaders kind of come and go, and even within
Calvary Chapel, there have been pastors who have kind of
predicted things, you know, certain cycles and, you know, this prophetic,
(49:36):
you know, uh, passages being fulfilled and, and kind of
what I've seen is that none of these things really
ever come to pass.
And it and it seems to me, you know, what
Jesus is saying, when he's telling us about the end,
is that it will be like birth pains. Now, I
don't know if you have any children, if you've ever
given birth, but I've been present for 3, for my wife, uh,
(49:59):
you know, and, you know, the Braxton Hicks, right? The,
the birth pains before birth, it, it, it's like this flex,
you know, it's the muscles are getting ready to bear,
but it's not the actual birth.
And I think that this is what we see. We
see these things happening in the world, and man, they
are indications that man, things are wild, and it seems
like the end is near, and then things kind of
(50:21):
die down, you know.
And then all of a sudden it will, you know,
happen again. And so I think we see this cycle,
and we want to put a timeline to it.
Mhm. And I think unfortunately, what it ends up doing,
and I don't think this is intentional, it becomes a distraction.
And I am at least thankful that it sounds like
this pastor is saying, so we gotta get serious, because
(50:43):
I think, yes, that is what we are supposed to
be doing the whole time.
Being serious, taking the word of God seriously, taking our
faith and discipleship to Jesus seriously. And so I often
say this, when it comes to prophecy or prophetic timelines,
we should not be looking at the sky, we should
be looking at the person of Jesus. And what Jesus
(51:03):
calls us to is faithfulness, you know, not to, you know,
have an accurate timeline of prophetic predictions and their fulfillments.
But actually to be faithful when he comes, to be
doing the things that he told us to do all along.
And unfortunately, what I've seen is a pattern that pastors
make all this fuss about these things, and many people, actually,
(51:28):
what ends up happening rather than people getting serious, they
grow numb. It's like the boy who cried wolf, you know, like,
oh well, we've heard this again and again and again
and again.
And I think if we just would focus our time
as believers, our gatherings, our scatterings on faithfulness to the
way of Jesus, we would actually see more and more
(51:51):
ground taken for the kingdom of God. Mike
Chadwick.
Speaker 2 (51:55):
Yeah, I think it's important when a pastor makes any claim,
whether it's we're at the end of a seven-year cycle
or another pastor says, no, I disagree, we're in the
middle of a 14 year one. Either way, we should
be going to the Bible and saying, where does the
Bible say what you are saying? Act 17, it says
that the Bereans were more excellent than most because they
received the world with word with all eagerness and studied
(52:19):
the scriptures daily to make sure these things were true.
So I think what I would ask of of anyone,
especially with the prophetic, because I think what happens with
the quote unquote prophetic, if you use that word around
it and somebody presents themselves as a prophet or something.
People give them a pass on being grounded in biblical truth,
(52:40):
because you go, oh, well, it's prophetic. So I, you know, oh,
it must be right. I don't, I should not look
in the Bible and say, hey, wait a minute, you're
making that claim. OK, that's a claim. We're at the
end of a seminary. Now show me where in the
Bible you have permission to say that. Cause if you're
gonna speak for God, and you're not speaking for God,
that's a grave sin.
So show me where in the Bible, it says that
God is saying this. And then if they get, and
(53:01):
hopefully they have a reference or references, and if they do,
it's still your job to make sure the word is
being properly interpreted. So I could probably speak more specifically
to this if there were any texts that were being used,
but apart from that, I would just give the general admonition. OK,
you heard that, now go to the Bible, where does
it say that? Is that true?
Speaker 1 (53:23):
Yeah, I would just like to add we did go
to the Bible and we didn't see any like specific
like God saying, you know, hey, you know, this is
the end of a cycle, but I mean like we
just mentioned like 7 years, so we like, we know
that the number 7 is God completion number, you know,
so it's just kind of like, oh, OK, well maybe,
you know, I mean just, I just had a question.
(53:43):
We just, I just wanted your opinion and just your advice.
And just, you know, either way, I mean, my family,
we are, we're Christians, we love Jesus, you know, we've
been going to church for a long time, raising our
son up in faith, our, you know, our grandkids, our daughters, um,
you know, but I mean, again, we just, I just
took it as, OK, like, well, we just need to
do a little bit more. We need to get more
in the line, you know, so it just kind of
(54:04):
just put like how what we are already doing, you know,
just kind of like made me question a little bit
like
Maybe I need to do a little bit more. Sure.
Or like what's going on, you know, like he was
just talking about like the rapture. Mhm, yeah, yeah. Yeah,
I think, you know, Yolanda, on this note too, you know,
there is um an exhortation in the Old Testament.
(54:25):
About the work of prophets, and Mike was speaking to
this earlier, but it actually says that if a prophet
gives a prediction, and it does not come to pass,
you shall not listen to him. He is no prophet.
And in fact, according to the Old Testament, which we
are not under obligation to fulfill this, but that actually
that prophet was considered a false prophet and wants to
(54:48):
be stoned to death. And so, I just share that
for like,
The gravity of what God is saying here, like, there
are all sorts of people that claim things, you know, oh,
the Bible says this, the Bible says that. So I
love how Mike is just, you know, calling us to
be rooted in the scriptures, like, OK, what passage, what
are you talking about? What do you think that means?
(55:09):
But also,
If it means nothing, and if it doesn't come to pass,
don't listen to that person. That person should not have
any authority or platform in the church, if their prophetic
predictions keep failing, right? And and especially cannot be rooted
in the scriptures. 20 seconds, Mike.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
I think that's great ammunition, again, keep coming back to
the Bible, especially as a pastor preacher, I have no
authority to preach my own opinion or simply say things
that gets people's interest. I have to preach the revealed
word of God, the Bible.
Speaker 1 (55:43):
Good stuff, Yolanda. Thank you for your phone call today
on Pastor's Perspective. The Bereans were the original fact checkers.
How cool is that? We'll be back tomorrow here on
Pastor's Perspective. God bless you guys. Thanks for listening. Thanks
for watching. We're going to archive today's episode if you
want to watch or listen again or share with a friend.
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