July 7, 2025 • 56 mins
Pastors' Perspective is a one-hour call-in program where listeners can call in and get answers to questions about the Bible, Christianity, family, and life. The program is live Monday through Friday from 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM Pacific. You can call 888-564-6173 to ask your questions.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez.
It is Wednesday, and here we are ready to answer
the questions you have about the Bible, the Christian faith,
just about anything that's on your mind. What do you
want to talk about? Prophecy, the rapture, the crucifixion, the resurrection,
so much we can talk about. 888-564-6173, creation, the flood.
(00:40):
The judge's period, the king's period. We can talk about
it all today here on Pastor's Perspective. And to answer
your questions, we've got author and apologist Doctor Bobby Conway.
He's the pastor of Image Church in Charlotte, North Carolina.
He's joining us online. Hi there, Bobby. Hey, how are
you guys doing today? Doing well. Great, great to see you.
Richard Cimino's here too. He's one of the assistant pastors
(01:03):
at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, sitting in for Brian Brogerson today, though.
You couldn't tell the difference. You, you hear his voice,
you see him, he's, he's Brian's radio body double or something, and, uh,
I'm not sure about the body thing. He's about 4
inches taller than me.
All right, 888-564-6173. And you can also send in your
(01:24):
questions online. We've got the pastor's perspective Facebook page. You
can send in your question using messenger, or you can
go to Kwave.com and find the pastor's perspective page, fill
out the forms, send in your question that way, scan
the QR code if you're watching us on Facebook, YouTube,
or Instagram. And speaking of Instagram, you can also DM
(01:44):
us there. That is what
Here are her questions. I'm concerned about my salvation. I
fear that I'm not going to make it because there
are so many contradictions to what I was originally taught
about Christianity, which was, all you have to do is
believe and you'll be saved. If you call on the
name of the Lord, you'll be saved. However, Jesus talks
about how not everyone who says, Lord, Lord will be saved.
(02:08):
He says, why is the road to hell and narrow
is the way to salvation.
He says that he will cut off the branches that
don't bear fruit. It feels like achieving righteousness is impossible
for someone like me who has a lot of responsibilities
and many things to distract from reading, reading my Bible
and praying. I see so many people around me that
(02:29):
have reached a level of maturity that I feel I
can never achieve. I desire so much to be like that,
but it feels like no matter how much I try,
I can never get there.
I have a husband and children. I fear the world
is too much influence in my home, and I can't
fight against it. I desire the things of God. I
don't feel that I'm equipped to handle, handle this battle.
(02:51):
I thought just having faith was enough, but faith without
works is dead. Can the world be in our lives
and we still get to heaven?
And one more thing from Angela, does the Bible say
that we are required to be evangelists? I have some
anxiety about this. I look at Ephesians 4:11 to 16,
also 1 Corinthians 12 and Romans 12. They say that
(03:13):
not everyone is called to do something.
Is it wrong to say that not everyone is called
to evangelize? I worry because I have not necessarily done
this or led a stranger to Christ. I don't even
know how to do that. I feel like sometimes we
are told we need to evangelize and share the gospel,
but we're not shown how. Not everyone can stand on
a corner with a bullhorn preaching.
(03:35):
I've served in many capacities at church. I try to
share God and the Word with my family and kids.
I strive to lead by example. I don't want to
disappoint God because I haven't spread the gospel, as my
pastor says that I should. Richard, what do you say
to Angela?
Well, that's a handful, um.
But let me begin, Angela, by telling you that um
(03:57):
the the good news hasn't changed um that you're
The contrast between what I was first told is just
believe in Jesus and you're saved. That is absolutely the truth.
If you believe with your heart on the Lord Jesus,
you'll be saved. And I mean,
In Romans chapter 5, it says God showed His great
(04:18):
love for us by sending Christ to die for us
while we were still sinners. So he didn't die for
you because you have this incredible um life that you've
been ordered and you're doing you're doing all these things
just so well. No, he died for you because you're
a sinner.
And, and it says that, but God is being rich
in mercy because of the great love with which he
(04:41):
loved us even when we were dead in our trespasses.
He made us alive together with Christ. By grace you
have been saved. It's not a result of your works.
By grace, right? And Paul, even Paul the Apostle says, I,
I don't count my own righteousness.
I don't count on it, the righteous by obeying the law,
(05:01):
I became righteous through faith in Christ. That's it. That's
how you get made right with God. But here's, here's
what I want to say to you about like, how
do I live now? How come I don't think my, my,
my life looks like my faith, um.
You know, Paul said this, he says, he says, I've
been crucified with Christ.
(05:23):
It's no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.
He says, so I live in this earthly body by
trusting in the Son of God who loved me and
gave Himself for me. The object of your faith is
the Son of God who loved you and died for you.
So you're saved by faith, but then here's how you
live by faith. This is what it looks like to
(05:45):
have faith in Jesus every day. Um, Jesus said, follow me,
so follow him.
Jesus said love your enemies, so.
Faith in Jesus looks like, well, Jesus, I don't feel
like loving my enemies, but you love me and you
died for me and you died for my enemies, so
I'm gonna do what you asked me to do. Faith
(06:06):
works by love, right? So there's this, there's this, I'm
just gonna, I will actually live as though Jesus loved
me and died for me, and that's even when you
feel condemned.
You live as though you, Jesus is the Son of
God who loved you and and died for you. And
uh the idea about is everybody supposed to be, you know,
(06:27):
I don't, I don't know how to overcome the world
in my home, you know, um.
Somebody once said, you know, you, you can't fight the dark.
The way you fight the dark is you turn on
the light. And so the way you turn on your
light is is you just live as as somebody who
loves Jesus. Let your light so shine before men that
(06:47):
they will see your good works and glorify your Father
that's in heaven, which is I think really speaks to
your question about, am I supposed to be an evangelist?
I think we will all have opportunities to speak for him.
But we get to speak for him, we get to
speak about him because we are so convinced that he
loves us. So we're not doing it out of pressure.
(07:09):
We're not doing it out of of somebody arm wrestling us,
twisting our arm to do it, and you get to
live as his ambassador, you know, just live in your
home as an ambassador for Jesus. Love your kids. I'm
representing Jesus to my kids today. I'm representing Jesus to
my husband today. Um, that, that's, there's just um.
(07:29):
Don't be discouraged because you're not as mature as somebody
else because they were not as mature as they are
now at one point in their lives. We grow in
grace and in the knowledge of our Savior. Yeah, Poppy Conway.
Yeah, well said, Richard. I mean, it is true that
the the gospel hasn't changed, but it, we do have
no shortage of people saying what the Bible teaches. Uh,
(07:53):
but the good thing about even the various differences amongst denominations, uh,
you know, what unifies us is the belief in the
simple gospel. Now, the particulars of how that fleshes out, uh,
can look different and creates a lot of confusion for
all of us, for that matter.
Uh, but it is believing that the
(08:15):
Points in history where Jesus died on the cross and
rose in the grave is a point in history that
really is historical in believing in that message and trusting
in that message now.
Jesus would meet people where they were at, and he
would use different languages or phrases like you must be
(08:37):
born again or go sell all that you have. He's
speaking to the idols of individual hearts. uh, and when
you're reading the context, well, he might be addressing an
idol of somebody's heart, be it money, uh, be it, uh,
whatever someone's struggling with, the adulterous woman.
(08:57):
What he's really getting at is he's the solution, he's
the answer. And when it comes to evangelism in our life, um,
you know, the Bible says, go and make disciples of
all nations.
And that begs the question, what is a disciple? Well,
it's a follower of Jesus, and uh it's somebody who
(09:17):
follows Jesus and then invites others to follow him as well.
And unfortunately, I think we've complicated this evangelistic task.
Um, we need pre-evangelism, uh, material like apologetics, which is
one wing of the airplane and evangelism is the other,
and apologetics is like adding tools to your tool belt
(09:42):
so that when you're out, uh, you know, trying to
share the gospel and constructing a story, you have different tools,
you understand different worldviews, you know how to apply it.
And that comes with study, engagement, thoughtfulness, but what you
see in the Bible, uh, when it comes to evangelism
is it, it's something that they just started doing and
(10:05):
you know, come see someone who told me everything that
I ever did. All I know is I was once blind,
now I see.
Uh, you know, you get the, the, the, the disciples
sharing with each other. So when the gospel takes a
hold of us, the natural response should be, I want
to share it. And when we're sharing it, uh, we're
(10:26):
butchering it, especially early on. I mean, we're really butchering it,
and I think the Lord, uh, looks through that and
sees a heart that wants to tell others the good
thing that happened in our life.
And what we're doing is we're just saying Jesus makes
a difference and we're trusting in Him and we're sharing
that and you can apologize on the front end for
(10:47):
not knowing the answers and go look stuff up, but
I would say we're all called to make disciples, um, that,
you know, and that if you, if you're a mom, uh,
you know, you're, you're making disciples with your kids. That
means you're, you're intentionally parenting your kids to follow Jesus.
And if, if we don't make disciples, we missed out
(11:08):
on a major purpose in our life as Christians. Like,
and that can look different, like it's, it's parents with
their children, it's uh being a part of a small
group in a church where you're leading it and facilitating it.
Uh, it's building relationships with people in the community, but
if we miss this idea of discipleship, which I think
a lot of times the church isn't focused on discipleship,
(11:30):
it's been focused on how do we reach consumers and
adopt the gospel for consumer mentality and we become entertainment churches.
And people, you know, get their checklist of, you know,
I went to 3 or 4 classes, so now I'm,
I'm done. No, it, it we're lifelong followers of Jesus
and we're walking with him, and the goal is, is
(11:51):
that through our words and through the way we live,
people will catch on. And then as it relates to
even on your first question.
You're not saved by being righteous enough, you're saved by
recognizing you're not righteous enough, but Jesus is. And yet
when you follow him as the pattern of your life,
we begin to take on some of that righteousness and
(12:14):
start to emulate him. So if you don't see any
type of change, like if I was to say, what
difference has Jesus made in your life and you're just.
Like, at a loss for words, then I would say
that that is a problem and it's not because you
have to do works to get saved, it's, we, we,
we're not saved by faith plus works, but by faith
that works, as Augustine, Augustine said.
(12:36):
So when you believe, in other words, if you really
believe in Him and we're to pattern our life after him,
it's gonna change our life and others will get changed
more and some less, but at the end of the day,
if we can't share the difference Jesus is making in
our life, then we have to question, well, if I
really surrendered my life to Him.
(12:57):
Angela, thank you for sending in your question on the
pastor's perspective Instagram. And, uh, we were speaking about apologetics
just a moment ago, so let me read this one
that was sent in through Kwave.com. It's from Aaron in Escondido.
I've been enjoying Pastor's perspective for several years now. I'm
interested in learning more about apologetics. What is the pastor's
(13:18):
opinion of the Apologetics Study Bible by Holman, or is
there another recommendation? Bobby?
Oh, that's a great study Bible, for sure. Um, what
that Bible will do is it takes a lot of
well-known apologists and they write articles, and, uh, it's basically
going from Genesis to Revelation and trying to tackle the
(13:40):
major apologetic issues that uh emerge in scriptures.
So there's different apologetics, right? There's biblical apologetics where we're
learning the apologetic, uh, issues that we are confronted with
in the scriptures. There's cultural apologetics where we have to,
you know, bring biblical theology to bear on the issues
(14:02):
of our day. Uh, there is, um.
You know, there's scientific apologetics, uh, there's philosophical apologetics. So there's,
there's a lot of layers to that, but if you
want to, you know, be discipled in the word of
God and know the major issues that will come up
for apologists, that's a great resource.
(14:25):
Very good, Aaron, thank you for sending in your question online.
And here's one from Jeannie in San Diego, sent through Facebook,
wants to know our perspective on the inner healing doctrine.
Are you guys familiar with us?
Bobby, um, I, I would have liked a little bit
more clarity, uh, on that, but the inner healing doctrine, um,
(14:51):
because
I feel like it, it, it, it's basically you're, you're
trying to get people freed up from their negative emotions, OK?
So we all have these negative emotions and, and it's
basically using different techniques um that can include mysticism and
(15:11):
you're trying to visualize Jesus and sometimes you go back
to a moment in your childhood. I can remember being
in a counselor's office years and years ago.
And he got out a a stuffed animal and said, OK,
he put this stuffed animal in a chair and said,
this is Little Bobby, and I want you to think
(15:32):
about some of the pain little Bobby incurred. And I said, frankly, I, I,
I can't get past the stuffed animals, sir. I'm having
a real hard time doing this and my wife was
with me and she's in just tears laughing at me.
And you know, trying to like have a conversation with
a stuffed animal, uh, and it just felt really silly
(15:55):
to me if I'm being honest. Uh, but I do
think there are things that pain us when we're younger,
and the idea is that you want Jesus to meet
you in that pain and you're gonna basically ask a
question once you identify that pain, um, Jesus, what would
you say to me in this? Uh, and
(16:16):
It's always gonna be something of encouragement, um, and it, and,
and there have been people that find they're being touched
by that, uh, you know, so I, I won't say
that God can't use that, but it's not the approach
(16:36):
that I take. I, I don't get a stuffed animal
out and stick it in front of somebody and say
this is your little you, uh, but I would ask
questions to try to understand.
Uh, people's process of pain rooted in traumas that might
need to get handled and then to say what would
Jesus say to you about that trauma, you know, hand
it over to me. I love you. I, I care
(16:57):
about you and there can be a tremendous benefit to
that aspect, I think. Richard. Yes, and, and that's so good, Bobby. I, I,
I also know that there's just
There there we we find places in scripture where God
makes it clear that he's interested in who we are
and the deepest part of who we are.
(17:17):
Um, in, in, in the Psalms, we, we see the
psalmist crying out concerning their soul and how they're broken, and, um, God,
God gives us their prayers for us to to take
to heart and to even perhaps even pray their prayers,
but I, I, I feel that it's so important for
us to understand that from from cover to cover, the Bible,
(17:41):
the Bible tells us God knows the hearts of men.
He's the knower of hearts.
And so in the deepest part, the the core of
our being, the place where we make our decisions, where
our words and thoughts are formed, God knows everything that's
going on there, and he knows the things that have
hurt us. He knows the places in there that are broken,
and I believe it just as Bobby was saying, just
(18:03):
go to him.
And lay these things out before him and as you
as you have your Bible open you you may find
that God gives you direct words of comfort from the
pages of scripture that are his words to you. I
wanna encourage you in this, you know, when we gather
um uh on Sundays, um, we worship the Lord corporately.
(18:25):
And we believe that God's such a good God and
a gracious God, that he's he's watching over every gathering
of every church. So he's gonna be with Bobby this
Sunday on the East Coast as Bobby holds forth the
word of God, and as his worship team gets up
and and leads in worship. And sometimes those worship songs,
the Holy Spirit shines right back on our hearts.
(18:48):
And they become prophetic for us in that way. They
become God's voice, like you're singing some great truth about
God and the Holy Spirit just reminds you, yes, that's
exactly who he is and he wants you to know
that that's who he is for you today. You know, those.
Moments of of gathering like that are so incredibly important. He, he, I,
(19:08):
you know, I don't think we have to be carrying
around the teddy bear, you know, I don't think we
have to, you know, the ushers aren't gonna hand you
teddy bears at the door as you walk in and like, no,
we're meeting with a living God. And so anyway, there
you go.
Yeah, I think, and I understand the point, it's to
try to
(19:29):
To connect to yourself when you feel like that's so
far away, uh, but yes, it definitely was weird and uncomfortable. Uh,
I will say, you know, the inner healing idea that
we do have emotions that can really.
Suffocate us. And when we believe in Jesus, uh, some
(19:52):
people do experience just this immediate grace where there's seems
to be this gift of emotional regulation.
But for a lot of people, and I would include
myself in this camp, uh, becoming a Christian kind of
amplified my already tortured emotions in many ways, uh, because
(20:16):
now I was having to confront a lifestyle that was
very much off track and
That meant surrender after surrender after surrender and needing to
be convinced that the surrender was appropriate and it's what
I needed to do. And um it was, it, you know,
(20:39):
being a Christian is a, is a dying to yourself
and there's a paradox in all of that, right? So, um, you,
you won't find your life until you lose it.
But the irony of it is you got to lose
it first to find it. And so there's this idea
that some parts of Christianity will never make sense until
you just go into it all the way, and it's
(21:02):
on the other side of surrender that things begin to
crystallize that this is true, that Christianity does make a
difference in my life. And so you have tons of
people that they get right with God vertically.
But they still function horizontally the way that they always did.
(21:23):
And this is one of the things that I was
thankful for AA is it caused me to do a
4th and 5th step, which in the 4th step, you're
identifying your fears, people you've hurt, people who've hurt you,
and you're really doing repair work in the in the
5th step where you're going around and you're making amends
(21:44):
amendments to people.
And so there's a lot of people that I think
hurt a lot of people before they got saved, but
then they think I'm saved and I don't have to
do anything about it. And I love the cleanup process
because it was in
Some of the bizarre phone calls that I was making, like, hey,
remember those Ugg boots, Dave, that or uh or uh
(22:07):
uh uh shoot, I can't, I think it was my
friend Anthony, called him Dizzy. Remember those Ugg boots that you,
you had and they disappeared. Well, actually ripped them off and,
you know, sold the money for them and man, that
was wrong and I'm just cleaning my life up and
I'm making amends to people that I stole from that
I lied to.
It was going to my ex-girlfriend and telling her I
(22:29):
I cheated on her a lot and I'm so sorry.
It was going to my mom and dad in tears
and saying I was such a rebel, will you forgive me?
And there was something really freeing in that and had
I just said, oh, I believe in Jesus when great
glory gave the altar call, and I don't have any
verdic or horizontal work to do.
(22:50):
I think that that's where you see like a Rick
Warren would say, the most on fire uh part of
his church at Saddleback was celebrate recovery, and I think
it was because they were doing the inner healing because
they were going and taking care of the horizontal wrongs
they committed so that they could learn to have a
better relationship and a relational life with others.
(23:10):
But is it possible to reach out to everybody that
you've hurt or, you know, or who has hurt you, but, well,
I guess just, just the one way from if, if
I've hurt people, and I know I have, how possible
is it to go back in time and, and find
all these people and
And reach out to them, they might have even forgotten,
(23:31):
they might have said, you know what, I moved on.
I don't even remember. In fact, thank you for bringing
this up again, or, you know, I, I, I hate
the fact that you brought this up again because now
I'm thinking about it.
Yeah, I mean, and that's one of the things, it's,
I don't, of course, it's not gonna be possible, um, it's,
but when it's in our power to make amends, we
(23:54):
should make amends. Uh, for example, I remember working at
a batting cage and I stole thousands of dollars as
a kid, uh, from my job.
And I started tracking down the people to figure out
how I could apologize and uh let them know, you know,
what rough amount I think I stole so that I
(24:16):
could pay them back, and I could never track them down.
So I was advised, you know, you can just give
a little more over time and let that deal with it.
The purpose of it, in particular in recovery is guilt, um.
Uh, you see, you can be forgiven by the Lord.
(24:38):
But still carrying a lot of false guilt, um, or
you could be carrying guilt because you do owe some apologies. And,
and Christian life never feels right because certain apologies weren't made.
And guilt is a powerful force that will work you
toward another relapse. And so it's really important to just,
(24:59):
so I had 20 plus pages in my first step
that I shared with somebody else in a confession fest.
The purpose wasn't to beat me up, the purpose was
to free me up. And I think that if somebody
became a believer and wanted a really good crack at
the Christian life, sit down and think about.
What are the things that you fear in life? Who
(25:20):
are the people that you've hurt that you could make
an apology to? Because not only that, it becomes a
great witnessing opportunity for all the people I got to
go to and apologize because I got to share about
the difference Jesus has made in my life. That's why
I'm apologizing. He forgave me and I realized what I
did was wrong and they're just blown away by that.
(25:41):
So I think many people are stuck and they're not
gonna heal because they're trying to figure out how to,
how to.
How to have this life with God, but sweep under
the rug all the damage of the past without cleaning
up any of it.
All right, uh, who was that? Jeannie, thank you for
sending in your question on the pastor's perspective Facebook page.
(26:03):
888-564-6173 is our number, and now we're going to talk
to Elijah, who's listening on FM 107.9 Kwave in Santa Ana. Hello, Elijah,
how can we help you?
Hello, my question was, so in the book of Genesis,
when Noah and his family gets on the boat and
all of creation, everything else on the earth is destroyed,
(26:25):
it says back in the day there was giants. So
in later when the Anakim and the rest of the,
the couple of other nations, they have giants again, where,
where would they come from if all the previous ones
were destroyed in the flood? OK, Bobby, what do you say?
Well, I mean, one of the arguments is that some
(26:46):
will try to talk about who are the nephilim, um,
and that that's in Genesis 6 verses 1 to 8, um,
and that becomes that, that, that's a conversation point, right?
But if they were literal giants, according to the one
view that you had, uh, the fallen angels impregnating women
(27:08):
and the offspring were these giants called Nephilim.
Uh, well, they would have been destroyed in the flood, uh,
but then it would appear that this kind of an
act took place again, producing more of these giants, and
that's how that would be explained. Um, I guess the
(27:28):
question that would get me thinking, maybe Richard's got an
answer for this, is what could prevent that from happening again.
Uh, if that's, if, if that's the, the solution there, uh,
but I do think it's an interesting question that I've
thought about myself. I don't have a thing on it.
Yeah, just, you know, I don't feel like I have the, the,
(27:50):
the best answer there because I, I guess I don't
even really know who the nephilim, uh, were, uh, if
I'm being honest. I, I, I, I, I can talk
to you about the views, uh, but then depending upon
the book I'm reading or the person who's talking, I might,
you know, flip flop on it. At the end of
the day, I, I, I'm just comfortable realizing there was
(28:13):
some bizarre stuff going on that I can't wrap my
head around.
And I had to come to that place of comfort
because it used to really disturb me a lot, but
I hope you can rest in that as well because
there's a lot of stuff in the Bible that we
can't answer. But let me give you an answer for that.
No matter what you believe, if you're an atheist or
a Muslim or a Buddhist, I mean, you talk to
(28:35):
a Hindu, there's so many Vedas. I mean, most of
them will never get through all the reading in an
entire lifetime.
So all that to say, we're not alone, we just
got pes for brains and we're just trying to wrap
our head around a lot of stuff, and I think
Christianity makes the most sense, but it still doesn't make
sense in other ways to me at times as well.
(28:55):
But hey, if I was an atheist, there's a lot
that wouldn't make sense to me there either, as well
as other beliefs that I could take on.
Elijah, thank you for your phone call today on Pastor's Perspective.
Hope that helps. We are gonna take our break now
and then we'll be back with more of your questions.
888-564-6173 is the number to call. We're gonna talk to
Dwayne when we come back from the break, and we'd
(29:17):
like to talk to you too.
We've got Bobby Conway and Richard Cimino here for another
half hour. 888-564-6173 is our number. If you're watching on Facebook, YouTube,
or Instagram, you can call in, please. The number's right
there on the bottom of your screen, 888-564-6173.
(30:17):
Welcome back to Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number to call.
I'm Brian Perez here with author and apologist Doctor Bobby Conway.
He's the pastor of Image Church in Charlotte, North Carolina.
In the studio with me is Richard Cimino, one of
the assistant pastors at
Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, sitting in for Brian Broderson, and
(30:37):
we would love to hear from you at 888-564-6173. We're
going to start this segment with Dwayne, who's calling in
from Corona, listening on FM 107.9 K wave. Hi, Dwayne.
Hello gentlemen. How are you today? Great. Thanks for calling. Good. Awesome. Awesome.
(30:58):
So here's my question. So when Jesus was on the
cross and he said, God, you know, Father, forgive them
for they know not what they do.
Um, I heard something very interesting from a, uh, from
Chuck Smith, who I very much respect. He's so incredible. But, um,
(31:24):
he had, he had said that when Peter
After they were filled with the Holy Spirit and basically
gave his first preaching, if you will, about 5000 were saved.
Chuck Smith was saying that that was the answer to
what Jesus prayed for on the cross, and I had
(31:47):
never heard that before. And of course it's always been
the question, what did that literally mean when, you know,
God forgive them for they know not what they do.
Um, I'd never heard the perspective of those people that
came to believe Christ when Peter spoke, um, was the answer.
(32:07):
I just wanted your perspective. Bobby, have you heard this before?
I haven't heard that, but I would, uh, all due respect, I,
I wouldn't agree with it. I, I don't know how
I could make that connection. Uh, um, I'm thinking through
the my biblical Rolodex, and I can struggle from spiritual
(32:28):
amnesia like the best of them. Uh, I think that
he's speaking to those who are current about those, forgive them,
they know not what they do, about those who are
currently in the process of crucifying him.
And Jesus is the initiator of forgiveness, and we're the
recipients when we receive it.
(32:48):
And they're ignorantly, uh, you know, doing something. In other words,
they don't realize they're crucifying God who became flesh. uh,
and so to make a connection to Acts feels like
a leap, but I don't fault Pastor Chuck for that
because I do the same thing. I mean, and that
(33:09):
I'm even ignorant of, uh, uh, uh, you know, I,
and I say that because I know that I'm not
the perfect Bible interpreter.
And I have so much gratitude for Pastor Chuck that it's,
it's never fun to be in a position, uh, to,
to do that, but I would say I would welcome
that for anything that I say too, because, you know,
he could have just had a moment like I didn't
(33:30):
hear the message, but
You know, he could have, if he said something like, hey,
it's possible that that's being, that would feel a little
bit lighter, but it does seem like the direct context
is that. And then the apologetic application for us then
is if Jesus could pray for God to forgive those
who are crucifying him, how much more should we be
willing to forgive enemies that wound us? He's our model
(33:53):
in that way, Richard. Yeah, um, and I think that it,
you know, we could, we could say in a in
a broad stroke.
Um, what, what an offer of forgiveness, like when did
Jesus say these things? It's right after they'd finished nailing
his feet to the, to the vertical piece of the cross.
(34:13):
And he looked on, on those men and said, Father,
forgive them. The the the offer of forgiveness, we, we
think it's limited, um, that who would who would God
possibly forgive? Well, Jesus looked at these guys and prayed
for them.
And, and, and truly, I mean, he's, you know, uh,
(34:36):
Isaiah spoke about how the suffering servant in Isaiah 53:12
would make intercession for the transgressors, like, wow.
If anything, I'd say that's what that was right there,
that that's what was happening, so.
Yeah. Very good. Duane, thank you for calling us today
here on Pastor's Perspective at 888-564-6173. Here's another question that
(34:58):
was sent in online. I'm so overwhelmed. My husband of
48 years has been an addict of some sort, our
entire relationship. He's been
been an alcoholic for quite a while. He does OK
at home, but at family gatherings, birthdays, Christmas, he gets
sloppy drunk in front of family, including our grandkids. My
question is, when do I have to forgive him and
(35:21):
his behavior? He does not ask for forgiveness. Richard, what
would you say?
Um, uh, that's a really good question, and, um,
I I read this book called Mending the Soul, and
the guy talks at the end of the book, it's
it's a soul, it's it's a book directed especially at trauma.
(35:42):
And people who have inflicted trauma and how do you,
the abusers, um, how do we understand them um how
are we supposed to respond to them? And at the
end of the book, he gets into the subject of
forgiveness and he said, you know, that there's so many
things in the there's so many passages in the Bible
that we say, well I think, oh, how come this
says this about forgiving people and this one doesn't say
(36:04):
the same thing and he said that there's there's 3,
there's 3.
Elements of forgiveness. He said there's judicial forgiveness, and that's
between a a a man or a woman and God.
And then he said there's there's emotional or psychological forgiveness,
and that has to do with the person that's been offended.
(36:25):
And you, it's it what's forgiveness in that sense means
that in your heart, you have to, you have to
want the best for that person, pray the best for
that person. That's, that's you have to emotionally be ready
in in any moment you're dealing with the person who's
hurt you.
Um, to to have that in your heart and your mind.
(36:46):
But then he said there's, there's, there's the restoration piece,
there's the reconciliation piece, and he said that sometimes never
gets to happen because it it hinges on the person
who has hurt you.
Um, actually owning the fact that they've hurt you.
And having some, some fruit of repentance showing that they
(37:09):
not only understood it, but they're changing in it. And
that's when that that the restoration thing. So there's plenty
of people. I'm Bobby, I'm sure you got a list
of people that have offended you and hurt you, and
they've never come to you and said, Will you please
forgive me, you know, and so and even you can
get even a little off a little further, you know, of, uh,
(37:30):
get on the shoulder of the road if you would about, well,
what if they come and say I'm sorry.
I don't know if sorry is the same as saying,
will you forgive me? um, but I do know that
there that I don't want to be legalist on that.
The fact that they're coming to you and they're acknowledging,
you know, that they're sorry for something they did, then
you can usually ask them well what was it? What
are you sorry for? What was it that you did?
(37:51):
That's with our kids a lot growing up like what
are you sorry for? But I do think that.
The, you know, all of us have been hurt by somebody,
maybe multiple times, and they've never asked us to forgive them,
but are we forgiving?
Can we, can we, if you bumped into him in
a store, what would you say to them? How would
you treat them? And obviously you're living with this guy,
(38:14):
so how are you gonna, how are you gonna deal
with him even though he's never asked? I think it's
a reasonable conversation to have with your husband. Can you,
can you explain to me why you've never asked me
um how will you forgive me for for being just
sloppy drunk, you know, and he may have asked that.
I mean, Bobby, you can speak to that.
(38:34):
You know, somebody who has come out of addiction, you know, to,
to like, how many times did you ever say that?
Or did you ever say that? Um, how did the
people that you hurt because of that, your choices, did they,
how did they treat you? Did they, were there people
who just really you could tell, they, they've forgiven me
and I'm not even asked for it yet. I don't
(38:55):
know if this is connecting, but yeah. Yeah, no, there
I would say.
That it's so important that this person does recognize that.
This is wrong and if this is happening often, it's
a real problem and he needs to get help and
(39:15):
uh and
I think that what helped me is when I had
my relapse.
My wife's perspective on that was this could get ugly
really fast, and she immediately put up the boundary that
(39:36):
you need to go stay at your parents right now. Um, uh,
I need some space. Um, she, in other words, everybody's
bottom is different, but we can raise the bottom up
on somebody's life by helping them to feel the consequences sooner.
And that is a very hard thing for a loved
one to do, but my wife can be tough as
(39:59):
nails with me. And in many ways, I think that
God used her to save my life because had she
been the kind of wife that was like, oh, it's
no big deal, let's just get over it like.
Uh, if addiction's running deep in somebody, they need to
feel that it's gonna cost greatly to keep this up.
And she let me know that very clearly that we're
(40:22):
not gonna live like this. Um, you know, my, you know, my,
my son had to like literally like walk me down
the stairs so I wouldn't fall. Uh, you know, this
was a horrible moment, and I didn't even, I, I
wasn't even intending.
To do this, this is just where the alcoholism just
(40:45):
showed up and then um and I'm so thankful because
that last that relapse for me was just I wasn't
supposed to be drinking anyway and I was sneaking sneaking
around not telling my wife and then I had some
friends over and then I kept sneaking off to the
garage and taking sips and they smelt it on my breath.
(41:09):
And then I could hardly walk, and then my wife,
she saw me that night and she had me leave. And,
you know, the God's grace for me was realizing it
because I, and then I kept drinking. I drank, uh, you,
you know, almost another bottle of wine after I was
already in a bad space, fell on my face a
(41:31):
couple times, and then I woke up at 6 a.m.
And went to look for the bottle that I was
drinking and I finished that off, and that was the
last time I ever drank and it was very scary
to me because I realized, wow, this, this is what
it's gonna look like. You you can't survive like this
(41:51):
and you're going to make a fool of yourself in
front of your kids.
And my wife is very gracious to me if I'm,
if I'm wanting to walk with Jesus, but if I
just want her to be gracious to me, to let
me go live like a prodigal.
Uh, she's gonna say, well, go ahead, go live like
a prodigal, just don't do it here. And I would
(42:12):
say you've got to be strong with your husband. It
might be saving his life and you just have to
tell him we're not gonna tolerate this, um, and we
need you, you, you, you know what, you're gonna go
live with your mom and dad until you figure this out. Uh,
you know, my wife was like, you're gonna be back
in AA, you're gonna be going to meetings every single day,
you're gonna be contacting your sponsor.
(42:32):
So it looks different for everybody, but blessed is the
man who has a strong wife and even though he
might feel cursed sometimes. No, I think, I think that
the idea of raising the bottom is such a great picture. Like,
because right now he obviously doesn't feel like he's hit
the bottom, this gentleman.
But, but for her, and I think that that's a
(42:52):
what that's a it's an evidence of like, no, I
don't want to not have things right between us, but
you need to you need to be alive to do it.
Our family needs to be vital and, and, and well, um, what,
what it is, whatever it is that needs to happen
in your life, you need to take care of that
(43:13):
business because I truly love you and I think that's a,
that's a a.
And, and it might be that that's the one thing
that's gonna change his heart and make him actually say,
I've brought it to this. I'm so sorry. You know,
now if you, if, if, if, if this.
The person asking this question, if they took the same
(43:33):
tact as your wife took, and her husband turns on
her and goes, I can't believe you're dealing with me
like this. I can't. Well then, then it's even more
to me it's like, well then that you just double
down on that and that I am more adamant than
ever that you need to get help or else.
Yeah, and addicts are that way. I mean, addicts, until
(43:54):
they surrender, they're always going, they're gonna, they're trying to
hold on. So they're gonna do anything they can to
not let that be threatened. And sometimes they'll come off
threatening or they'll, you know, start making people feel bad, um,
they'll start trying to endure pity, uh, you don't understand.
(44:15):
Uh, but what, what he needs to understand is if
this stuff's happening in front of grandkids and that that's
not normal, that's not the way we're supposed to live,
and it's a horrific picture to present, um, but it's also,
I think, very, you know, I don't know how old
the grandkids are, but I know in my case, hey son,
I am so sorry your dad put you in this
(44:37):
like I was in.
I wasn't looking for that. Like I'm just gonna, it,
I'm not saying that like in an excuse kind of way.
I'm saying it it's what helped me realize I've got
a real problem here that I'm not gonna be able
to manage it because it, it crept up, but it's
also a beautiful opportunity when you are taking your stuff
seriously to go and say, hey, you know what, I
didn't model Jesus right for you to, to the grandkids
(45:00):
and apologize. Uh, people.
That our family can tend to be pretty good if
somebody's owning up to stuff. It's when we start trying
to rationalize it and minimize it and explain it away
or blame. That's where it just gets really ugly. Yeah. And,
and I think too, as you're speaking, Bobby, I'm thinking
about like how many times repeatedly has this kind of
(45:22):
behavior happened to where there's some real hurt that's been
done in kids' lives and.
Really and and in his wife's life, like, like the
damage that's there, it's like now, now it's not only
do you have to get fixed, but there's just this,
this residual hurt that's that just has to be walked
out and lived through and and restoration made in in
(45:46):
their own lives and being made whole. I just can't, I,
I just can't imagine.
Um, yeah, man, I mean I know sometimes I think
we have this erroneous view of Christianity like, um, oh,
we just got to be forgiving and so we just
gotta get walked all over and you know, and this
(46:07):
is where it's an abuse of grace, it's cheap grace,
not costly grace that Bonhoeffer talked about, uh, God is
always
Raising the bottom, uh, like putting up boundaries. You're gonna
go into captivity. Like he's constantly doing it and it's
not because he's trying to be a harsh god, he's
(46:28):
recognizing you're self-destructing, you're, you're bringing shame to my name,
you're bringing shame to your family, you're living.
Out of accordance with what you were created for, and
so he raises the the the bottom up quicker so
that they can feel consequences sooner so that they hopefully
will repent and get on track. Uh, so it's, it's
(46:49):
not grace to just be walked all over in life
in the name of a cheap grace. Um, it's grace
that you're giving someone when you say I love you.
Uh, so much that I'm gonna raise the bottom here
and you're gonna get changed and you're gonna see the
way I'm gonna love you through the gospel, but loving
(47:10):
you through the gospel means that I invite you to
live the gospel, not to live like the world. And
when you're gonna live that way, or if I live
that way, we're gonna call each other up because that's
what Christians do. Yeah, and I'm I'm like, like your wife,
I'm thankful for my wife that she just, she has
this fearless thing about her that she'll just go, no,
that's not working at all.
That doesn't work. Let's talk about this, you know, and
(47:32):
I think that's, you know.
That
I can't imagine where, you know, what lines would have
been moved for me. Like, here's the line, but I
think I can just keep moving it incrementally if she
was just gone like, no, would you just be a
Christian here? This is not what a Christian looks like
in this moment. Yeah, I mean, I know you have
a lot of temptations like to rob banks and stuff.
(47:53):
So does she really kind of challenge you in that way,
you know, not do that? Hey, what's all these masks
doing in the.
She found them. She called me out.
All right, uh, let's talk to Jenny in Florida. She's
watching us on YouTube. Hi there, Jenny, thanks for calling
in today. 888-564-6173 is our number. What's going on?
Speaker 2 (48:16):
I, I, I love this show you guys, and I
pray for you guys with your answers all the time. Oh,
thank you. Isit in those seats. Um, I just went,
I had an experience recently where I spent 8 hours
in a car driving on vacation with my sister and
her husband who are ultra liberal, non-believers. They claim to
(48:39):
be agnostics, um, and, you know, after much, uh, uh, conversation.
Um, the bottom line was, uh, that why does God, uh,
you know, a God, a good God, do, uh, bad
things to people, and of course, you know, I went
through the, the direction of, you know, it's not God
(49:01):
that's doing it, it's man that's, you know, made this
choice of free will and etc. but um I was
frantically looking for your on your apologetics page, Bobby trying
to find an answer a video for him.
To watch and stuff, this this gentleman has read like
most of the Bible.
(49:21):
And he is very knowledgeable about the Bible, and it
was really very tricky, and he kept telling me, my
mind just can't accept. My mind cannot accept this. And
I was just like, I was kind of running out
of
information.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
He was saying he his mind can't accept that bad
things happen to.
Or why bad things happen if God is real.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
No, yes, his mind just cannot accept God. His scientific
mind cannot accept this God, and you know, of course
I kept telling, telling him it's, it's faith, it's faith,
yet that faith, and it just seems so shallow. I
don't know, and I don't know. I just, I'm throwing
this in you guys' lap right
Speaker 1 (50:03):
now. OK, Bobby.
Uh, well, I think that you answered it correctly with
free will. Um, I mean, what's, what's, it's not God doing, uh,
evil things to us. Now, does he allow us to,
you know, do stupid things? Yeah, because he's honoring free will.
(50:26):
We're not robots. So what's the alternative? Like, how can
we live in a world
Where bad things don't happen to us. Well, if we were,
you know, pre-programmed robots with no free will, then we
could perfectly obey. And yet if we could complain about it,
(50:47):
we would complain, why didn't you create me free? And
if God said, Well, I didn't create you free because
if you did, then you would have had this fall,
and then you would have been a mess. So I
created you just to be robotic. But then when we're
created free, then
We still get mad at God because we're free and
we do bad things and then the irony in all
(51:07):
of it is we do these things and then we
blame God for creating us this way. But then we
do the same thing because we have kids and we
bring them into the world and we have trust that
they can have a good crack at life and so
I'd say, um, I don't think science, uh, you know.
Scientism, the belief that science can explain everything, is the answer,
(51:29):
because if you take that to its rational ends, then
you know, natural selection is not concerned about our moral decisions,
it's concerned about our fitness and survival, and that means
in order to survive, you need to do some pretty
harsh things to people if you're going to survive at
times because there's no moral ethic guiding you to treat
(51:52):
people a certain way. In other words, even Adolf Hitler.
Um, he was sincere in his belief that he was
going to clean up the genetic pool, and he was
going to be a savior, so to speak, by doing
the hard thing of killing those who were polluting the,
the genetic pool by killing them off. And so he
felt like what he was doing was good.
(52:14):
In that way. Well, that's the consequence of ideas right there.
And I'd also say on atheism, it, it's this exchange, right? So, OK,
you're gonna, you're not gonna believe in God, but you're
gonna hold on to atheism.
So you're gonna say, why, why does God let all
these bad things happen? Well, at least on Christianity, God's
gonna have his way with Hitler in the end on atheism.
(52:37):
Hitler just gets away with it, and he, you know what,
who's to say what he did was wrong. There's no
objective morality. It was just his belief against our belief,
but as Christians, we believe that God is good.
is holy, that we're sinful and therefore that's why we
end up doing really dumb things and then to go
and blame it on God on top of it and say, oh,
(52:58):
I'm not going to believe in you because of this. um, well,
basically we're we're upset that he created us. But then
if he created us as robots, as I said, well,
what does that really solve?
Richard, 90 seconds. Yeah, how does an atheist blame God
because there isn't one. It's like, wait, yeah, what's the
(53:18):
who's about, yeah, who's the who's the criminal here because
there is no God, you know, what you're looking at
is
This is the outworking of of meaningless random chances and
this is what we've come to and you know and
at the end of the day there's gonna be nothing
so whatever this is is just is what it is.
So but that's, you know, trying to trying to reconcile
(53:42):
the brokenness of humanity that's the fault of a good
God doesn't make sense and I think it's just so
important for us to just kind of be able to say, look,
I somebody uh you can help me with this, Bobby.
Somebody once said, you know, when somebody says why did
good bad things happen to good people, he says, you know,
there's only ever been one really good person and they
(54:02):
killed him. So I don't know if that's a theologically
bright one, but it kind of gets.
Yeah, I mean, like, what, so we become believers and
now all of a sudden like we don't have to
worry about, you know, a tree falling on us because
of lightning. Like it's this magic pill that we take,
we don't have to get sick. We don't have any
like bad things happen to good people and good things
(54:24):
happen to bad people and vice versa. I mean, we
all get our collection of good and bad, but Jesus
shows us a way to have more good than bad
by believing in Him.
Jenny, thank you for your phone call from Florida, and
thank you for watching on YouTube. Thank you all of
you for watching on YouTube and Facebook and Instagram. We
live stream there every day and then we archive on
(54:46):
Facebook and YouTube when we're done with the program. It's
available there for you to watch or listen to or
share with your friends. We also make it available as
a podcast.
on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And, uh, make sure you subscribe,
and then that way you'll get notified every time a
new episode is available. Speaking of subscribe, don't forget to
subscribe to Dr. Bobby Conway's Graphite Apologist YouTube channel. Click
(55:10):
the little bell icon and you'll get notified every time
Bobby does a new video.
And speaking of Bobby, tomorrow is his last day with
us here on Pastor's Perspective. So do make sure to
join us from 3 to 4 p.m. Pacific time. Uh,
God bless you guys. Thank you for listening and watching
Pastor's Perspective.
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez.
It is Wednesday, and here we are ready to answer
the questions you have about the Bible, the Christian faith,
just about anything that's on your mind. What do you
want to talk about? Prophecy, the rapture, the crucifixion, the resurrection,
so much we can talk about. 888-564-6173, creation, the flood.
(00:40):
The judge's period, the king's period. We can talk about
it all today here on Pastor's Perspective. And to answer
your questions, we've got author and apologist Doctor Bobby Conway.
He's the pastor of Image Church in Charlotte, North Carolina.
He's joining us online. Hi there, Bobby. Hey, how are
you guys doing today? Doing well. Great, great to see you.
Richard Cimino's here too. He's one of the assistant pastors
(01:03):
at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, sitting in for Brian Brogerson today, though.
You couldn't tell the difference. You, you hear his voice,
you see him, he's, he's Brian's radio body double or something, and, uh,
I'm not sure about the body thing. He's about 4
inches taller than me.
All right, 888-564-6173. And you can also send in your
(01:24):
questions online. We've got the pastor's perspective Facebook page. You
can send in your question using messenger, or you can
go to Kwave.com and find the pastor's perspective page, fill
out the forms, send in your question that way, scan
the QR code if you're watching us on Facebook, YouTube,
or Instagram. And speaking of Instagram, you can also DM
(01:44):
us there. That is what
Here are her questions. I'm concerned about my salvation. I
fear that I'm not going to make it because there
are so many contradictions to what I was originally taught
about Christianity, which was, all you have to do is
believe and you'll be saved. If you call on the
name of the Lord, you'll be saved. However, Jesus talks
about how not everyone who says, Lord, Lord will be saved.
(02:08):
He says, why is the road to hell and narrow
is the way to salvation.
He says that he will cut off the branches that
don't bear fruit. It feels like achieving righteousness is impossible
for someone like me who has a lot of responsibilities
and many things to distract from reading, reading my Bible
and praying. I see so many people around me that
(02:29):
have reached a level of maturity that I feel I
can never achieve. I desire so much to be like that,
but it feels like no matter how much I try,
I can never get there.
I have a husband and children. I fear the world
is too much influence in my home, and I can't
fight against it. I desire the things of God. I
don't feel that I'm equipped to handle, handle this battle.
(02:51):
I thought just having faith was enough, but faith without
works is dead. Can the world be in our lives
and we still get to heaven?
And one more thing from Angela, does the Bible say
that we are required to be evangelists? I have some
anxiety about this. I look at Ephesians 4:11 to 16,
also 1 Corinthians 12 and Romans 12. They say that
(03:13):
not everyone is called to do something.
Is it wrong to say that not everyone is called
to evangelize? I worry because I have not necessarily done
this or led a stranger to Christ. I don't even
know how to do that. I feel like sometimes we
are told we need to evangelize and share the gospel,
but we're not shown how. Not everyone can stand on
a corner with a bullhorn preaching.
(03:35):
I've served in many capacities at church. I try to
share God and the Word with my family and kids.
I strive to lead by example. I don't want to
disappoint God because I haven't spread the gospel, as my
pastor says that I should. Richard, what do you say
to Angela?
Well, that's a handful, um.
But let me begin, Angela, by telling you that um
(03:57):
the the good news hasn't changed um that you're
The contrast between what I was first told is just
believe in Jesus and you're saved. That is absolutely the truth.
If you believe with your heart on the Lord Jesus,
you'll be saved. And I mean,
In Romans chapter 5, it says God showed His great
(04:18):
love for us by sending Christ to die for us
while we were still sinners. So he didn't die for
you because you have this incredible um life that you've
been ordered and you're doing you're doing all these things
just so well. No, he died for you because you're
a sinner.
And, and it says that, but God is being rich
in mercy because of the great love with which he
(04:41):
loved us even when we were dead in our trespasses.
He made us alive together with Christ. By grace you
have been saved. It's not a result of your works.
By grace, right? And Paul, even Paul the Apostle says, I,
I don't count my own righteousness.
I don't count on it, the righteous by obeying the law,
(05:01):
I became righteous through faith in Christ. That's it. That's
how you get made right with God. But here's, here's
what I want to say to you about like, how
do I live now? How come I don't think my, my,
my life looks like my faith, um.
You know, Paul said this, he says, he says, I've
been crucified with Christ.
(05:23):
It's no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.
He says, so I live in this earthly body by
trusting in the Son of God who loved me and
gave Himself for me. The object of your faith is
the Son of God who loved you and died for you.
So you're saved by faith, but then here's how you
live by faith. This is what it looks like to
(05:45):
have faith in Jesus every day. Um, Jesus said, follow me,
so follow him.
Jesus said love your enemies, so.
Faith in Jesus looks like, well, Jesus, I don't feel
like loving my enemies, but you love me and you
died for me and you died for my enemies, so
I'm gonna do what you asked me to do. Faith
(06:06):
works by love, right? So there's this, there's this, I'm
just gonna, I will actually live as though Jesus loved
me and died for me, and that's even when you
feel condemned.
You live as though you, Jesus is the Son of
God who loved you and and died for you. And
uh the idea about is everybody supposed to be, you know,
(06:27):
I don't, I don't know how to overcome the world
in my home, you know, um.
Somebody once said, you know, you, you can't fight the dark.
The way you fight the dark is you turn on
the light. And so the way you turn on your
light is is you just live as as somebody who
loves Jesus. Let your light so shine before men that
(06:47):
they will see your good works and glorify your Father
that's in heaven, which is I think really speaks to
your question about, am I supposed to be an evangelist?
I think we will all have opportunities to speak for him.
But we get to speak for him, we get to
speak about him because we are so convinced that he
loves us. So we're not doing it out of pressure.
(07:09):
We're not doing it out of of somebody arm wrestling us,
twisting our arm to do it, and you get to
live as his ambassador, you know, just live in your
home as an ambassador for Jesus. Love your kids. I'm
representing Jesus to my kids today. I'm representing Jesus to
my husband today. Um, that, that's, there's just um.
(07:29):
Don't be discouraged because you're not as mature as somebody
else because they were not as mature as they are
now at one point in their lives. We grow in
grace and in the knowledge of our Savior. Yeah, Poppy Conway.
Yeah, well said, Richard. I mean, it is true that
the the gospel hasn't changed, but it, we do have
no shortage of people saying what the Bible teaches. Uh,
(07:53):
but the good thing about even the various differences amongst denominations, uh,
you know, what unifies us is the belief in the
simple gospel. Now, the particulars of how that fleshes out, uh,
can look different and creates a lot of confusion for
all of us, for that matter.
Uh, but it is believing that the
(08:15):
Points in history where Jesus died on the cross and
rose in the grave is a point in history that
really is historical in believing in that message and trusting
in that message now.
Jesus would meet people where they were at, and he
would use different languages or phrases like you must be
(08:37):
born again or go sell all that you have. He's
speaking to the idols of individual hearts. uh, and when
you're reading the context, well, he might be addressing an
idol of somebody's heart, be it money, uh, be it, uh,
whatever someone's struggling with, the adulterous woman.
(08:57):
What he's really getting at is he's the solution, he's
the answer. And when it comes to evangelism in our life, um,
you know, the Bible says, go and make disciples of
all nations.
And that begs the question, what is a disciple? Well,
it's a follower of Jesus, and uh it's somebody who
(09:17):
follows Jesus and then invites others to follow him as well.
And unfortunately, I think we've complicated this evangelistic task.
Um, we need pre-evangelism, uh, material like apologetics, which is
one wing of the airplane and evangelism is the other,
and apologetics is like adding tools to your tool belt
(09:42):
so that when you're out, uh, you know, trying to
share the gospel and constructing a story, you have different tools,
you understand different worldviews, you know how to apply it.
And that comes with study, engagement, thoughtfulness, but what you
see in the Bible, uh, when it comes to evangelism
is it, it's something that they just started doing and
(10:05):
you know, come see someone who told me everything that
I ever did. All I know is I was once blind,
now I see.
Uh, you know, you get the, the, the, the disciples
sharing with each other. So when the gospel takes a
hold of us, the natural response should be, I want
to share it. And when we're sharing it, uh, we're
(10:26):
butchering it, especially early on. I mean, we're really butchering it,
and I think the Lord, uh, looks through that and
sees a heart that wants to tell others the good
thing that happened in our life.
And what we're doing is we're just saying Jesus makes
a difference and we're trusting in Him and we're sharing
that and you can apologize on the front end for
(10:47):
not knowing the answers and go look stuff up, but
I would say we're all called to make disciples, um, that,
you know, and that if you, if you're a mom, uh,
you know, you're, you're making disciples with your kids. That
means you're, you're intentionally parenting your kids to follow Jesus.
And if, if we don't make disciples, we missed out
(11:08):
on a major purpose in our life as Christians. Like,
and that can look different, like it's, it's parents with
their children, it's uh being a part of a small
group in a church where you're leading it and facilitating it.
Uh, it's building relationships with people in the community, but
if we miss this idea of discipleship, which I think
a lot of times the church isn't focused on discipleship,
(11:30):
it's been focused on how do we reach consumers and
adopt the gospel for consumer mentality and we become entertainment churches.
And people, you know, get their checklist of, you know,
I went to 3 or 4 classes, so now I'm,
I'm done. No, it, it we're lifelong followers of Jesus
and we're walking with him, and the goal is, is
(11:51):
that through our words and through the way we live,
people will catch on. And then as it relates to
even on your first question.
You're not saved by being righteous enough, you're saved by
recognizing you're not righteous enough, but Jesus is. And yet
when you follow him as the pattern of your life,
we begin to take on some of that righteousness and
(12:14):
start to emulate him. So if you don't see any
type of change, like if I was to say, what
difference has Jesus made in your life and you're just.
Like, at a loss for words, then I would say
that that is a problem and it's not because you
have to do works to get saved, it's, we, we,
we're not saved by faith plus works, but by faith
that works, as Augustine, Augustine said.
(12:36):
So when you believe, in other words, if you really
believe in Him and we're to pattern our life after him,
it's gonna change our life and others will get changed
more and some less, but at the end of the day,
if we can't share the difference Jesus is making in
our life, then we have to question, well, if I
really surrendered my life to Him.
(12:57):
Angela, thank you for sending in your question on the
pastor's perspective Instagram. And, uh, we were speaking about apologetics
just a moment ago, so let me read this one
that was sent in through Kwave.com. It's from Aaron in Escondido.
I've been enjoying Pastor's perspective for several years now. I'm
interested in learning more about apologetics. What is the pastor's
(13:18):
opinion of the Apologetics Study Bible by Holman, or is
there another recommendation? Bobby?
Oh, that's a great study Bible, for sure. Um, what
that Bible will do is it takes a lot of
well-known apologists and they write articles, and, uh, it's basically
going from Genesis to Revelation and trying to tackle the
(13:40):
major apologetic issues that uh emerge in scriptures.
So there's different apologetics, right? There's biblical apologetics where we're
learning the apologetic, uh, issues that we are confronted with
in the scriptures. There's cultural apologetics where we have to,
you know, bring biblical theology to bear on the issues
(14:02):
of our day. Uh, there is, um.
You know, there's scientific apologetics, uh, there's philosophical apologetics. So there's,
there's a lot of layers to that, but if you
want to, you know, be discipled in the word of
God and know the major issues that will come up
for apologists, that's a great resource.
(14:25):
Very good, Aaron, thank you for sending in your question online.
And here's one from Jeannie in San Diego, sent through Facebook,
wants to know our perspective on the inner healing doctrine.
Are you guys familiar with us?
Bobby, um, I, I would have liked a little bit
more clarity, uh, on that, but the inner healing doctrine, um,
(14:51):
because
I feel like it, it, it, it's basically you're, you're
trying to get people freed up from their negative emotions, OK?
So we all have these negative emotions and, and it's
basically using different techniques um that can include mysticism and
(15:11):
you're trying to visualize Jesus and sometimes you go back
to a moment in your childhood. I can remember being
in a counselor's office years and years ago.
And he got out a a stuffed animal and said, OK,
he put this stuffed animal in a chair and said,
this is Little Bobby, and I want you to think
(15:32):
about some of the pain little Bobby incurred. And I said, frankly, I, I,
I can't get past the stuffed animals, sir. I'm having
a real hard time doing this and my wife was
with me and she's in just tears laughing at me.
And you know, trying to like have a conversation with
a stuffed animal, uh, and it just felt really silly
(15:55):
to me if I'm being honest. Uh, but I do
think there are things that pain us when we're younger,
and the idea is that you want Jesus to meet
you in that pain and you're gonna basically ask a
question once you identify that pain, um, Jesus, what would
you say to me in this? Uh, and
(16:16):
It's always gonna be something of encouragement, um, and it, and,
and there have been people that find they're being touched
by that, uh, you know, so I, I won't say
that God can't use that, but it's not the approach
(16:36):
that I take. I, I don't get a stuffed animal
out and stick it in front of somebody and say
this is your little you, uh, but I would ask
questions to try to understand.
Uh, people's process of pain rooted in traumas that might
need to get handled and then to say what would
Jesus say to you about that trauma, you know, hand
it over to me. I love you. I, I care
(16:57):
about you and there can be a tremendous benefit to
that aspect, I think. Richard. Yes, and, and that's so good, Bobby. I, I,
I also know that there's just
There there we we find places in scripture where God
makes it clear that he's interested in who we are
and the deepest part of who we are.
(17:17):
Um, in, in, in the Psalms, we, we see the
psalmist crying out concerning their soul and how they're broken, and, um, God,
God gives us their prayers for us to to take
to heart and to even perhaps even pray their prayers,
but I, I, I feel that it's so important for
us to understand that from from cover to cover, the Bible,
(17:41):
the Bible tells us God knows the hearts of men.
He's the knower of hearts.
And so in the deepest part, the the core of
our being, the place where we make our decisions, where
our words and thoughts are formed, God knows everything that's
going on there, and he knows the things that have
hurt us. He knows the places in there that are broken,
and I believe it just as Bobby was saying, just
(18:03):
go to him.
And lay these things out before him and as you
as you have your Bible open you you may find
that God gives you direct words of comfort from the
pages of scripture that are his words to you. I
wanna encourage you in this, you know, when we gather
um uh on Sundays, um, we worship the Lord corporately.
(18:25):
And we believe that God's such a good God and
a gracious God, that he's he's watching over every gathering
of every church. So he's gonna be with Bobby this
Sunday on the East Coast as Bobby holds forth the
word of God, and as his worship team gets up
and and leads in worship. And sometimes those worship songs,
the Holy Spirit shines right back on our hearts.
(18:48):
And they become prophetic for us in that way. They
become God's voice, like you're singing some great truth about
God and the Holy Spirit just reminds you, yes, that's
exactly who he is and he wants you to know
that that's who he is for you today. You know, those.
Moments of of gathering like that are so incredibly important. He, he, I,
(19:08):
you know, I don't think we have to be carrying
around the teddy bear, you know, I don't think we
have to, you know, the ushers aren't gonna hand you
teddy bears at the door as you walk in and like, no,
we're meeting with a living God. And so anyway, there
you go.
Yeah, I think, and I understand the point, it's to
try to
(19:29):
To connect to yourself when you feel like that's so
far away, uh, but yes, it definitely was weird and uncomfortable. Uh,
I will say, you know, the inner healing idea that
we do have emotions that can really.
Suffocate us. And when we believe in Jesus, uh, some
(19:52):
people do experience just this immediate grace where there's seems
to be this gift of emotional regulation.
But for a lot of people, and I would include
myself in this camp, uh, becoming a Christian kind of
amplified my already tortured emotions in many ways, uh, because
(20:16):
now I was having to confront a lifestyle that was
very much off track and
That meant surrender after surrender after surrender and needing to
be convinced that the surrender was appropriate and it's what
I needed to do. And um it was, it, you know,
(20:39):
being a Christian is a, is a dying to yourself
and there's a paradox in all of that, right? So, um, you,
you won't find your life until you lose it.
But the irony of it is you got to lose
it first to find it. And so there's this idea
that some parts of Christianity will never make sense until
you just go into it all the way, and it's
(21:02):
on the other side of surrender that things begin to
crystallize that this is true, that Christianity does make a
difference in my life. And so you have tons of
people that they get right with God vertically.
But they still function horizontally the way that they always did.
(21:23):
And this is one of the things that I was
thankful for AA is it caused me to do a
4th and 5th step, which in the 4th step, you're
identifying your fears, people you've hurt, people who've hurt you,
and you're really doing repair work in the in the
5th step where you're going around and you're making amends
(21:44):
amendments to people.
And so there's a lot of people that I think
hurt a lot of people before they got saved, but
then they think I'm saved and I don't have to
do anything about it. And I love the cleanup process
because it was in
Some of the bizarre phone calls that I was making, like, hey,
remember those Ugg boots, Dave, that or uh or uh
(22:07):
uh uh shoot, I can't, I think it was my
friend Anthony, called him Dizzy. Remember those Ugg boots that you,
you had and they disappeared. Well, actually ripped them off and,
you know, sold the money for them and man, that
was wrong and I'm just cleaning my life up and
I'm making amends to people that I stole from that
I lied to.
It was going to my ex-girlfriend and telling her I
(22:29):
I cheated on her a lot and I'm so sorry.
It was going to my mom and dad in tears
and saying I was such a rebel, will you forgive me?
And there was something really freeing in that and had
I just said, oh, I believe in Jesus when great
glory gave the altar call, and I don't have any
verdic or horizontal work to do.
(22:50):
I think that that's where you see like a Rick
Warren would say, the most on fire uh part of
his church at Saddleback was celebrate recovery, and I think
it was because they were doing the inner healing because
they were going and taking care of the horizontal wrongs
they committed so that they could learn to have a
better relationship and a relational life with others.
(23:10):
But is it possible to reach out to everybody that
you've hurt or, you know, or who has hurt you, but, well,
I guess just, just the one way from if, if
I've hurt people, and I know I have, how possible
is it to go back in time and, and find
all these people and
And reach out to them, they might have even forgotten,
(23:31):
they might have said, you know what, I moved on.
I don't even remember. In fact, thank you for bringing
this up again, or, you know, I, I, I hate
the fact that you brought this up again because now
I'm thinking about it.
Yeah, I mean, and that's one of the things, it's,
I don't, of course, it's not gonna be possible, um, it's,
but when it's in our power to make amends, we
(23:54):
should make amends. Uh, for example, I remember working at
a batting cage and I stole thousands of dollars as
a kid, uh, from my job.
And I started tracking down the people to figure out
how I could apologize and uh let them know, you know,
what rough amount I think I stole so that I
(24:16):
could pay them back, and I could never track them down.
So I was advised, you know, you can just give
a little more over time and let that deal with it.
The purpose of it, in particular in recovery is guilt, um.
Uh, you see, you can be forgiven by the Lord.
(24:38):
But still carrying a lot of false guilt, um, or
you could be carrying guilt because you do owe some apologies. And,
and Christian life never feels right because certain apologies weren't made.
And guilt is a powerful force that will work you
toward another relapse. And so it's really important to just,
(24:59):
so I had 20 plus pages in my first step
that I shared with somebody else in a confession fest.
The purpose wasn't to beat me up, the purpose was
to free me up. And I think that if somebody
became a believer and wanted a really good crack at
the Christian life, sit down and think about.
What are the things that you fear in life? Who
(25:20):
are the people that you've hurt that you could make
an apology to? Because not only that, it becomes a
great witnessing opportunity for all the people I got to
go to and apologize because I got to share about
the difference Jesus has made in my life. That's why
I'm apologizing. He forgave me and I realized what I
did was wrong and they're just blown away by that.
(25:41):
So I think many people are stuck and they're not
gonna heal because they're trying to figure out how to,
how to.
How to have this life with God, but sweep under
the rug all the damage of the past without cleaning
up any of it.
All right, uh, who was that? Jeannie, thank you for
sending in your question on the pastor's perspective Facebook page.
(26:03):
888-564-6173 is our number, and now we're going to talk
to Elijah, who's listening on FM 107.9 Kwave in Santa Ana. Hello, Elijah,
how can we help you?
Hello, my question was, so in the book of Genesis,
when Noah and his family gets on the boat and
all of creation, everything else on the earth is destroyed,
(26:25):
it says back in the day there was giants. So
in later when the Anakim and the rest of the,
the couple of other nations, they have giants again, where,
where would they come from if all the previous ones
were destroyed in the flood? OK, Bobby, what do you say?
Well, I mean, one of the arguments is that some
(26:46):
will try to talk about who are the nephilim, um,
and that that's in Genesis 6 verses 1 to 8, um,
and that becomes that, that, that's a conversation point, right?
But if they were literal giants, according to the one
view that you had, uh, the fallen angels impregnating women
(27:08):
and the offspring were these giants called Nephilim.
Uh, well, they would have been destroyed in the flood, uh,
but then it would appear that this kind of an
act took place again, producing more of these giants, and
that's how that would be explained. Um, I guess the
(27:28):
question that would get me thinking, maybe Richard's got an
answer for this, is what could prevent that from happening again.
Uh, if that's, if, if that's the, the solution there, uh,
but I do think it's an interesting question that I've
thought about myself. I don't have a thing on it.
Yeah, just, you know, I don't feel like I have the, the,
(27:50):
the best answer there because I, I guess I don't
even really know who the nephilim, uh, were, uh, if
I'm being honest. I, I, I, I, I can talk
to you about the views, uh, but then depending upon
the book I'm reading or the person who's talking, I might,
you know, flip flop on it. At the end of
the day, I, I, I'm just comfortable realizing there was
(28:13):
some bizarre stuff going on that I can't wrap my
head around.
And I had to come to that place of comfort
because it used to really disturb me a lot, but
I hope you can rest in that as well because
there's a lot of stuff in the Bible that we
can't answer. But let me give you an answer for that.
No matter what you believe, if you're an atheist or
a Muslim or a Buddhist, I mean, you talk to
(28:35):
a Hindu, there's so many Vedas. I mean, most of
them will never get through all the reading in an
entire lifetime.
So all that to say, we're not alone, we just
got pes for brains and we're just trying to wrap
our head around a lot of stuff, and I think
Christianity makes the most sense, but it still doesn't make
sense in other ways to me at times as well.
(28:55):
But hey, if I was an atheist, there's a lot
that wouldn't make sense to me there either, as well
as other beliefs that I could take on.
Elijah, thank you for your phone call today on Pastor's Perspective.
Hope that helps. We are gonna take our break now
and then we'll be back with more of your questions.
888-564-6173 is the number to call. We're gonna talk to
Dwayne when we come back from the break, and we'd
(29:17):
like to talk to you too.
We've got Bobby Conway and Richard Cimino here for another
half hour. 888-564-6173 is our number. If you're watching on Facebook, YouTube,
or Instagram, you can call in, please. The number's right
there on the bottom of your screen, 888-564-6173.
(30:17):
Welcome back to Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number to call.
I'm Brian Perez here with author and apologist Doctor Bobby Conway.
He's the pastor of Image Church in Charlotte, North Carolina.
In the studio with me is Richard Cimino, one of
the assistant pastors at
Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, sitting in for Brian Broderson, and
(30:37):
we would love to hear from you at 888-564-6173. We're
going to start this segment with Dwayne, who's calling in
from Corona, listening on FM 107.9 K wave. Hi, Dwayne.
Hello gentlemen. How are you today? Great. Thanks for calling. Good. Awesome. Awesome.
(30:58):
So here's my question. So when Jesus was on the
cross and he said, God, you know, Father, forgive them
for they know not what they do.
Um, I heard something very interesting from a, uh, from
Chuck Smith, who I very much respect. He's so incredible. But, um,
(31:24):
he had, he had said that when Peter
After they were filled with the Holy Spirit and basically
gave his first preaching, if you will, about 5000 were saved.
Chuck Smith was saying that that was the answer to
what Jesus prayed for on the cross, and I had
(31:47):
never heard that before. And of course it's always been
the question, what did that literally mean when, you know,
God forgive them for they know not what they do.
Um, I'd never heard the perspective of those people that
came to believe Christ when Peter spoke, um, was the answer.
(32:07):
I just wanted your perspective. Bobby, have you heard this before?
I haven't heard that, but I would, uh, all due respect, I,
I wouldn't agree with it. I, I don't know how
I could make that connection. Uh, um, I'm thinking through
the my biblical Rolodex, and I can struggle from spiritual
(32:28):
amnesia like the best of them. Uh, I think that
he's speaking to those who are current about those, forgive them,
they know not what they do, about those who are
currently in the process of crucifying him.
And Jesus is the initiator of forgiveness, and we're the
recipients when we receive it.
(32:48):
And they're ignorantly, uh, you know, doing something. In other words,
they don't realize they're crucifying God who became flesh. uh,
and so to make a connection to Acts feels like
a leap, but I don't fault Pastor Chuck for that
because I do the same thing. I mean, and that
(33:09):
I'm even ignorant of, uh, uh, uh, you know, I,
and I say that because I know that I'm not
the perfect Bible interpreter.
And I have so much gratitude for Pastor Chuck that it's,
it's never fun to be in a position, uh, to,
to do that, but I would say I would welcome
that for anything that I say too, because, you know,
he could have just had a moment like I didn't
(33:30):
hear the message, but
You know, he could have, if he said something like, hey,
it's possible that that's being, that would feel a little
bit lighter, but it does seem like the direct context
is that. And then the apologetic application for us then
is if Jesus could pray for God to forgive those
who are crucifying him, how much more should we be
willing to forgive enemies that wound us? He's our model
(33:53):
in that way, Richard. Yeah, um, and I think that it,
you know, we could, we could say in a in
a broad stroke.
Um, what, what an offer of forgiveness, like when did
Jesus say these things? It's right after they'd finished nailing
his feet to the, to the vertical piece of the cross.
(34:13):
And he looked on, on those men and said, Father,
forgive them. The the the offer of forgiveness, we, we
think it's limited, um, that who would who would God
possibly forgive? Well, Jesus looked at these guys and prayed
for them.
And, and, and truly, I mean, he's, you know, uh,
(34:36):
Isaiah spoke about how the suffering servant in Isaiah 53:12
would make intercession for the transgressors, like, wow.
If anything, I'd say that's what that was right there,
that that's what was happening, so.
Yeah. Very good. Duane, thank you for calling us today
here on Pastor's Perspective at 888-564-6173. Here's another question that
(34:58):
was sent in online. I'm so overwhelmed. My husband of
48 years has been an addict of some sort, our
entire relationship. He's been
been an alcoholic for quite a while. He does OK
at home, but at family gatherings, birthdays, Christmas, he gets
sloppy drunk in front of family, including our grandkids. My
question is, when do I have to forgive him and
(35:21):
his behavior? He does not ask for forgiveness. Richard, what
would you say?
Um, uh, that's a really good question, and, um,
I I read this book called Mending the Soul, and
the guy talks at the end of the book, it's
it's a soul, it's it's a book directed especially at trauma.
(35:42):
And people who have inflicted trauma and how do you,
the abusers, um, how do we understand them um how
are we supposed to respond to them? And at the
end of the book, he gets into the subject of
forgiveness and he said, you know, that there's so many
things in the there's so many passages in the Bible
that we say, well I think, oh, how come this
says this about forgiving people and this one doesn't say
(36:04):
the same thing and he said that there's there's 3,
there's 3.
Elements of forgiveness. He said there's judicial forgiveness, and that's
between a a a man or a woman and God.
And then he said there's there's emotional or psychological forgiveness,
and that has to do with the person that's been offended.
(36:25):
And you, it's it what's forgiveness in that sense means
that in your heart, you have to, you have to
want the best for that person, pray the best for
that person. That's, that's you have to emotionally be ready
in in any moment you're dealing with the person who's
hurt you.
Um, to to have that in your heart and your mind.
(36:46):
But then he said there's, there's, there's the restoration piece,
there's the reconciliation piece, and he said that sometimes never
gets to happen because it it hinges on the person
who has hurt you.
Um, actually owning the fact that they've hurt you.
And having some, some fruit of repentance showing that they
(37:09):
not only understood it, but they're changing in it. And
that's when that that the restoration thing. So there's plenty
of people. I'm Bobby, I'm sure you got a list
of people that have offended you and hurt you, and
they've never come to you and said, Will you please
forgive me, you know, and so and even you can
get even a little off a little further, you know, of, uh,
(37:30):
get on the shoulder of the road if you would about, well,
what if they come and say I'm sorry.
I don't know if sorry is the same as saying,
will you forgive me? um, but I do know that
there that I don't want to be legalist on that.
The fact that they're coming to you and they're acknowledging,
you know, that they're sorry for something they did, then
you can usually ask them well what was it? What
are you sorry for? What was it that you did?
(37:51):
That's with our kids a lot growing up like what
are you sorry for? But I do think that.
The, you know, all of us have been hurt by somebody,
maybe multiple times, and they've never asked us to forgive them,
but are we forgiving?
Can we, can we, if you bumped into him in
a store, what would you say to them? How would
you treat them? And obviously you're living with this guy,
(38:14):
so how are you gonna, how are you gonna deal
with him even though he's never asked? I think it's
a reasonable conversation to have with your husband. Can you,
can you explain to me why you've never asked me
um how will you forgive me for for being just
sloppy drunk, you know, and he may have asked that.
I mean, Bobby, you can speak to that.
(38:34):
You know, somebody who has come out of addiction, you know, to,
to like, how many times did you ever say that?
Or did you ever say that? Um, how did the
people that you hurt because of that, your choices, did they,
how did they treat you? Did they, were there people
who just really you could tell, they, they've forgiven me
and I'm not even asked for it yet. I don't
(38:55):
know if this is connecting, but yeah. Yeah, no, there
I would say.
That it's so important that this person does recognize that.
This is wrong and if this is happening often, it's
a real problem and he needs to get help and
(39:15):
uh and
I think that what helped me is when I had
my relapse.
My wife's perspective on that was this could get ugly
really fast, and she immediately put up the boundary that
(39:36):
you need to go stay at your parents right now. Um, uh,
I need some space. Um, she, in other words, everybody's
bottom is different, but we can raise the bottom up
on somebody's life by helping them to feel the consequences sooner.
And that is a very hard thing for a loved
one to do, but my wife can be tough as
(39:59):
nails with me. And in many ways, I think that
God used her to save my life because had she
been the kind of wife that was like, oh, it's
no big deal, let's just get over it like.
Uh, if addiction's running deep in somebody, they need to
feel that it's gonna cost greatly to keep this up.
And she let me know that very clearly that we're
(40:22):
not gonna live like this. Um, you know, my, you know, my,
my son had to like literally like walk me down
the stairs so I wouldn't fall. Uh, you know, this
was a horrible moment, and I didn't even, I, I
wasn't even intending.
To do this, this is just where the alcoholism just
(40:45):
showed up and then um and I'm so thankful because
that last that relapse for me was just I wasn't
supposed to be drinking anyway and I was sneaking sneaking
around not telling my wife and then I had some
friends over and then I kept sneaking off to the
garage and taking sips and they smelt it on my breath.
(41:09):
And then I could hardly walk, and then my wife,
she saw me that night and she had me leave. And,
you know, the God's grace for me was realizing it
because I, and then I kept drinking. I drank, uh, you,
you know, almost another bottle of wine after I was
already in a bad space, fell on my face a
(41:31):
couple times, and then I woke up at 6 a.m.
And went to look for the bottle that I was
drinking and I finished that off, and that was the
last time I ever drank and it was very scary
to me because I realized, wow, this, this is what
it's gonna look like. You you can't survive like this
(41:51):
and you're going to make a fool of yourself in
front of your kids.
And my wife is very gracious to me if I'm,
if I'm wanting to walk with Jesus, but if I
just want her to be gracious to me, to let
me go live like a prodigal.
Uh, she's gonna say, well, go ahead, go live like
a prodigal, just don't do it here. And I would
(42:12):
say you've got to be strong with your husband. It
might be saving his life and you just have to
tell him we're not gonna tolerate this, um, and we
need you, you, you, you know what, you're gonna go
live with your mom and dad until you figure this out. Uh,
you know, my wife was like, you're gonna be back
in AA, you're gonna be going to meetings every single day,
you're gonna be contacting your sponsor.
(42:32):
So it looks different for everybody, but blessed is the
man who has a strong wife and even though he
might feel cursed sometimes. No, I think, I think that
the idea of raising the bottom is such a great picture. Like,
because right now he obviously doesn't feel like he's hit
the bottom, this gentleman.
But, but for her, and I think that that's a
(42:52):
what that's a it's an evidence of like, no, I
don't want to not have things right between us, but
you need to you need to be alive to do it.
Our family needs to be vital and, and, and well, um, what,
what it is, whatever it is that needs to happen
in your life, you need to take care of that
(43:13):
business because I truly love you and I think that's a,
that's a a.
And, and it might be that that's the one thing
that's gonna change his heart and make him actually say,
I've brought it to this. I'm so sorry. You know,
now if you, if, if, if, if this.
The person asking this question, if they took the same
(43:33):
tact as your wife took, and her husband turns on
her and goes, I can't believe you're dealing with me
like this. I can't. Well then, then it's even more
to me it's like, well then that you just double
down on that and that I am more adamant than
ever that you need to get help or else.
Yeah, and addicts are that way. I mean, addicts, until
(43:54):
they surrender, they're always going, they're gonna, they're trying to
hold on. So they're gonna do anything they can to
not let that be threatened. And sometimes they'll come off
threatening or they'll, you know, start making people feel bad, um,
they'll start trying to endure pity, uh, you don't understand.
(44:15):
Uh, but what, what he needs to understand is if
this stuff's happening in front of grandkids and that that's
not normal, that's not the way we're supposed to live,
and it's a horrific picture to present, um, but it's also,
I think, very, you know, I don't know how old
the grandkids are, but I know in my case, hey son,
I am so sorry your dad put you in this
(44:37):
like I was in.
I wasn't looking for that. Like I'm just gonna, it,
I'm not saying that like in an excuse kind of way.
I'm saying it it's what helped me realize I've got
a real problem here that I'm not gonna be able
to manage it because it, it crept up, but it's
also a beautiful opportunity when you are taking your stuff
seriously to go and say, hey, you know what, I
didn't model Jesus right for you to, to the grandkids
(45:00):
and apologize. Uh, people.
That our family can tend to be pretty good if
somebody's owning up to stuff. It's when we start trying
to rationalize it and minimize it and explain it away
or blame. That's where it just gets really ugly. Yeah. And,
and I think too, as you're speaking, Bobby, I'm thinking
about like how many times repeatedly has this kind of
(45:22):
behavior happened to where there's some real hurt that's been
done in kids' lives and.
Really and and in his wife's life, like, like the
damage that's there, it's like now, now it's not only
do you have to get fixed, but there's just this,
this residual hurt that's that just has to be walked
out and lived through and and restoration made in in
(45:46):
their own lives and being made whole. I just can't, I,
I just can't imagine.
Um, yeah, man, I mean I know sometimes I think
we have this erroneous view of Christianity like, um, oh,
we just got to be forgiving and so we just
gotta get walked all over and you know, and this
(46:07):
is where it's an abuse of grace, it's cheap grace,
not costly grace that Bonhoeffer talked about, uh, God is
always
Raising the bottom, uh, like putting up boundaries. You're gonna
go into captivity. Like he's constantly doing it and it's
not because he's trying to be a harsh god, he's
(46:28):
recognizing you're self-destructing, you're, you're bringing shame to my name,
you're bringing shame to your family, you're living.
Out of accordance with what you were created for, and
so he raises the the the bottom up quicker so
that they can feel consequences sooner so that they hopefully
will repent and get on track. Uh, so it's, it's
(46:49):
not grace to just be walked all over in life
in the name of a cheap grace. Um, it's grace
that you're giving someone when you say I love you.
Uh, so much that I'm gonna raise the bottom here
and you're gonna get changed and you're gonna see the
way I'm gonna love you through the gospel, but loving
(47:10):
you through the gospel means that I invite you to
live the gospel, not to live like the world. And
when you're gonna live that way, or if I live
that way, we're gonna call each other up because that's
what Christians do. Yeah, and I'm I'm like, like your wife,
I'm thankful for my wife that she just, she has
this fearless thing about her that she'll just go, no,
that's not working at all.
That doesn't work. Let's talk about this, you know, and
(47:32):
I think that's, you know.
That
I can't imagine where, you know, what lines would have
been moved for me. Like, here's the line, but I
think I can just keep moving it incrementally if she
was just gone like, no, would you just be a
Christian here? This is not what a Christian looks like
in this moment. Yeah, I mean, I know you have
a lot of temptations like to rob banks and stuff.
(47:53):
So does she really kind of challenge you in that way,
you know, not do that? Hey, what's all these masks
doing in the.
She found them. She called me out.
All right, uh, let's talk to Jenny in Florida. She's
watching us on YouTube. Hi there, Jenny, thanks for calling
in today. 888-564-6173 is our number. What's going on?
Speaker 2 (48:16):
I, I, I love this show you guys, and I
pray for you guys with your answers all the time. Oh,
thank you. Isit in those seats. Um, I just went,
I had an experience recently where I spent 8 hours
in a car driving on vacation with my sister and
her husband who are ultra liberal, non-believers. They claim to
(48:39):
be agnostics, um, and, you know, after much, uh, uh, conversation.
Um, the bottom line was, uh, that why does God, uh,
you know, a God, a good God, do, uh, bad
things to people, and of course, you know, I went
through the, the direction of, you know, it's not God
(49:01):
that's doing it, it's man that's, you know, made this
choice of free will and etc. but um I was
frantically looking for your on your apologetics page, Bobby trying
to find an answer a video for him.
To watch and stuff, this this gentleman has read like
most of the Bible.
(49:21):
And he is very knowledgeable about the Bible, and it
was really very tricky, and he kept telling me, my
mind just can't accept. My mind cannot accept this. And
I was just like, I was kind of running out
of
information.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
He was saying he his mind can't accept that bad
things happen to.
Or why bad things happen if God is real.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
No, yes, his mind just cannot accept God. His scientific
mind cannot accept this God, and you know, of course
I kept telling, telling him it's, it's faith, it's faith,
yet that faith, and it just seems so shallow. I
don't know, and I don't know. I just, I'm throwing
this in you guys' lap right
Speaker 1 (50:03):
now. OK, Bobby.
Uh, well, I think that you answered it correctly with
free will. Um, I mean, what's, what's, it's not God doing, uh,
evil things to us. Now, does he allow us to,
you know, do stupid things? Yeah, because he's honoring free will.
(50:26):
We're not robots. So what's the alternative? Like, how can
we live in a world
Where bad things don't happen to us. Well, if we were,
you know, pre-programmed robots with no free will, then we
could perfectly obey. And yet if we could complain about it,
(50:47):
we would complain, why didn't you create me free? And
if God said, Well, I didn't create you free because
if you did, then you would have had this fall,
and then you would have been a mess. So I
created you just to be robotic. But then when we're
created free, then
We still get mad at God because we're free and
we do bad things and then the irony in all
(51:07):
of it is we do these things and then we
blame God for creating us this way. But then we
do the same thing because we have kids and we
bring them into the world and we have trust that
they can have a good crack at life and so
I'd say, um, I don't think science, uh, you know.
Scientism, the belief that science can explain everything, is the answer,
(51:29):
because if you take that to its rational ends, then
you know, natural selection is not concerned about our moral decisions,
it's concerned about our fitness and survival, and that means
in order to survive, you need to do some pretty
harsh things to people if you're going to survive at
times because there's no moral ethic guiding you to treat
(51:52):
people a certain way. In other words, even Adolf Hitler.
Um, he was sincere in his belief that he was
going to clean up the genetic pool, and he was
going to be a savior, so to speak, by doing
the hard thing of killing those who were polluting the,
the genetic pool by killing them off. And so he
felt like what he was doing was good.
(52:14):
In that way. Well, that's the consequence of ideas right there.
And I'd also say on atheism, it, it's this exchange, right? So, OK,
you're gonna, you're not gonna believe in God, but you're
gonna hold on to atheism.
So you're gonna say, why, why does God let all
these bad things happen? Well, at least on Christianity, God's
gonna have his way with Hitler in the end on atheism.
(52:37):
Hitler just gets away with it, and he, you know what,
who's to say what he did was wrong. There's no
objective morality. It was just his belief against our belief,
but as Christians, we believe that God is good.
is holy, that we're sinful and therefore that's why we
end up doing really dumb things and then to go
and blame it on God on top of it and say, oh,
(52:58):
I'm not going to believe in you because of this. um, well,
basically we're we're upset that he created us. But then
if he created us as robots, as I said, well,
what does that really solve?
Richard, 90 seconds. Yeah, how does an atheist blame God
because there isn't one. It's like, wait, yeah, what's the
(53:18):
who's about, yeah, who's the who's the criminal here because
there is no God, you know, what you're looking at
is
This is the outworking of of meaningless random chances and
this is what we've come to and you know and
at the end of the day there's gonna be nothing
so whatever this is is just is what it is.
So but that's, you know, trying to trying to reconcile
(53:42):
the brokenness of humanity that's the fault of a good
God doesn't make sense and I think it's just so
important for us to just kind of be able to say, look,
I somebody uh you can help me with this, Bobby.
Somebody once said, you know, when somebody says why did
good bad things happen to good people, he says, you know,
there's only ever been one really good person and they
(54:02):
killed him. So I don't know if that's a theologically
bright one, but it kind of gets.
Yeah, I mean, like, what, so we become believers and
now all of a sudden like we don't have to
worry about, you know, a tree falling on us because
of lightning. Like it's this magic pill that we take,
we don't have to get sick. We don't have any
like bad things happen to good people and good things
(54:24):
happen to bad people and vice versa. I mean, we
all get our collection of good and bad, but Jesus
shows us a way to have more good than bad
by believing in Him.
Jenny, thank you for your phone call from Florida, and
thank you for watching on YouTube. Thank you all of
you for watching on YouTube and Facebook and Instagram. We
live stream there every day and then we archive on
(54:46):
Facebook and YouTube when we're done with the program. It's
available there for you to watch or listen to or
share with your friends. We also make it available as
a podcast.
on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And, uh, make sure you subscribe,
and then that way you'll get notified every time a
new episode is available. Speaking of subscribe, don't forget to
subscribe to Dr. Bobby Conway's Graphite Apologist YouTube channel. Click
(55:10):
the little bell icon and you'll get notified every time
Bobby does a new video.
And speaking of Bobby, tomorrow is his last day with
us here on Pastor's Perspective. So do make sure to
join us from 3 to 4 p.m. Pacific time. Uh,
God bless you guys. Thank you for listening and watching
Pastor's Perspective.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!