Pastors' Perspective - 07/28/2025

Pastors' Perspective is a one-hour call-in program where listeners can call in and get answers to questions about the Bible, Christianity, family, and life. The program is live Monday through Friday from 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM Pacific. You can call 888-564-6173 to ask your questions.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:13):
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez,
and we are here for the next hour to answer
questions that you guys have about the Bible, the Christian faith,
how to walk the Christian walk. We would love to
talk about it with you. Let us know what's going on.
Maybe you heard something this weekend at church.
And you're wondering, wait, how do I apply that to

(00:34):
my life? Or does that apply to my life? Maybe
you read something in your Bible this morning that you're
scratching your head over. We would love to talk about
it at 888-564-6173-888-564-6173. If you're watching online, Facebook, YouTube, Instagram,
Thank you for watching. Make sure to share this on
your favorite social media platform, and we can get more

(00:56):
people calling in when they see that phone number there.
It's on the bottom of the screen, 888-564-6173. The best
way to get an answer is to call us, but
you can send in your question online. There's multiple ways
to do that. I'll explain that as we go along.
But the best way to get an answer, like I said,
calling 888-564-6173. And today we've got a couple of pastors

(01:19):
from Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa. Lead pastor, Char Broderson is here.
How are you, Char? I'm doing really well, Brian, how
are you? Good, good. And Assistant Pastor Richard Cimino joins
us too. Hey, Richard. Hey, good to be here.
Good on you for moving that mic closer to you.
I didn't realize how far away it was, but good job.
All right. 888-564-6173. So you can send in your questions

(01:41):
on the pastor's perspective Facebook messenger, or you can go to, uh,
Kwave.com and look for the pastor's perspective page, and, uh,
then you can fill out the form there that gets
your question to us, or you can DM us on
the pastor's perspective Instagram or scan the QR code if
you're watching us online. But if you, uh,

(02:01):
Use Facebook, like CJ did. We will read your question here, like, uh,
this one is, does having different denominations and scholarly work
on the scriptures mean that the Bible is unreliable, too vague,
or filled with contradictions? Some argue that if the Bible
were just more clear or easy to understand.

(02:22):
We wouldn't have different denominations, disagreeing or need scholarly work
to help make sense of it all. What would you say, Char? Yeah,
it's a really good question. Yeah, I think oftentimes that
is the, um, it's, that's the perception that this is
what's going on and there's all these divisions among Christians
because of these different interpretations of scripture. I think, first,

(02:42):
I just want to address that, uh, the different schools
of interpretation that, you know, we have, whether it's from
the King James version, new King James, the
NET, NLT ESV, NIV, right? These are all different translations
of the scripture.
Uh, these are, these come about through councils, right? And

(03:03):
so these are a group of biblical scholars who literally
have made it their life's work to study scripture in
the original languages and understand what these words meant in
their context, what they would mean for us today, and
together they're working through those things and really coming to
these conclusions, how to best represent the witness of scripture.

(03:24):
So this isn't just one individual's opinion.
You know, pitted against another individual's opinion from a different,
you know, translation. So we need to understand that about
how these translations have come about. Um, I think the
second thing that's important to understand is, um, the different
denominations and even the different interpretations of scripture, well, those

(03:45):
are two separate things, and denominations really are formed because
of open-handed issues.
And what I mean by that is, uh, let me
differentiate the difference, right? All Christians, whether Orthodox, Roman Catholic
or Protestant, hold to um the apostles' Creed. This is

(04:08):
the statement of faith about what we believe about Christianity,
about what the Bible teaches. I'll read it. It says,
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven
and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son,
our Lord.
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the
Virgin Mary, he suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died,

(04:29):
and was buried. He descended to hell. The third day
He rose again from the dead. He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of God the
Father Almighty. From there he will come to judge the
living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit.
I believe in the holy Catholic universal Church.
The communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection

(04:50):
of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. This creed,
this statement of faith is true for all Christians at
all times and all places. This is actually how we
would differentiate um those that we would consider Christian cults.
They do not hold to this creed, this declaration of

(05:12):
faith that we hold to. So this is a closed hand.
Thing, right? This is what all Christians believe and all
Christians hold to, and then confessions, I think, is the
way that we can best understand what denominations are. So,
the denominations would hold to the apostles' Creed, but have
different interpretation about things that are not totally clear in scripture.

(05:33):
We would call those open-handed issues. These are the things
that we can debate over and disagree about and hold
different opinions about, and even emphasize different things.
From one another. One of these would be the issue
of baptism, you know, whether it's believers baptism, it's infant baptism,
Christians are divided on these things between the Baptists, the Presbyterians,

(05:54):
you know, the Anglicans, these things, but they still hold
to the creed. And so I think that's the best
way that we can understand denominations. It's not because scripture
is confusing. Scripture is actually very clear in its witness of,
you know, what it is declaring about God and about
his redemption through Jesus Christ.
Uh, the issue is we hold, you know, different convictions

(06:17):
about some of these things that are unclear in scripture, eschatology,
we will hold, you know, a certain perspective and lean
into that while other denominations might not. So, I think
that's probably the best way that we can understand what's
going on with
and with the different denominations that are present. And would
you say that then a denomination has to adhere 100%

(06:40):
to the apostles creed in order to not be considered
a Christian cult? Like if, if there's just one of
those issues that they say, well, we're not too sure
about this one, then it's like, oh, you're gone.
Yes, yeah, I mean, this is considered orthodoxy. This is
what Christianity is and holds to these things. You really

(07:01):
can't get away, get around them. You must hold to these,
you know, as, um.
Yeah, as a Christian, yeah, and that's why we talk
seemingly it seemed to some people, well, you guys are
always going against the LDS church and everything, and you know,
Mormons are good people and yeah, but they don't agree
with that they're kind, yeah, nice people, yeah, yeah, yeah, Richard, yeah, um,

(07:25):
that's so good to and um when I, the part
of the question that really hit me was the thing
about like, you know, why do we all this thing,
what about scholarship, you know, we are.
So grateful for scholarship and um I had the privilege
of teaching a gathering class here one semester and it
was on how to read and study the Bible. And

(07:46):
um uh I was so I was reading this book
by Gordon Fee and Douglas Stewart on how to read
the Bible for all it's worth, right? And it was
so good. And here they made this statement like, so
we're asking what are we reading? What are we holding
in our hands? And they said the Bible is the
word of God given in human words at specific times
in history.

(08:06):
And that implies something really important for us. If men
and women were going to hear his words, it would
have to come through events and languages they could understand.
And in none of those contexts was English the language, right? So, um,
so if we're gonna understand these things, we have to,
we have to stop and go like that means that

(08:28):
the Bible we're reading was shaped by historical context and
conditioned by the language of the time, the language.
To the culture in which it was written. And so
that means that they God would use all sorts of
forms of communication like narrative history, genealogies, chronicles, laws, poetry,
prophetic oracles, drama, biographical uh sketches, parables, letters, sermons, all

(08:56):
of that. But it we're reading English Bibles today because
men have given and devoted themselves to understanding what the
Bible said to them.
And so they made this point, the entry point for
our reading and study the Bible is that before we
get to what is the Bible saying to us, we
need to hear the word that they heard. And so

(09:16):
these scholars, they, they took the literal words that they
heard in their original languages and understanding the historical context,
the cultural context, the idioms of the day, they translated
for us into English. So that God didn't speak a
word to them that they couldn't understand.
We need to understand what it said to them so
that we can understand what it's saying to us. So, CJ,

(09:40):
thank you for sending in your question on the pastor's
perspective Facebook messenger, and now we're gonna go to the phones.
888-564-6173 is the number to call in and speak with
Char Broderson and Richard Cimino. Here is Barbara, who's calling
in from Orange County, California, listening on the Kwave app. Hi, Barbara,
thanks for downloading the app and thank you for calling

(10:00):
in today.
Sure. Hi, hi, um, so I, I, I go to
Cabo Chapel customers so I know Pastor Char and Richard Cimino,
and I'm happy to be there too. So my question
has to do with what makes a Christian a true Christian,
and there are like 3 separate questions I have about it. One,

(10:21):
It is about 2 years ago when I went to
the Calvary Chapel because Chapel of the harbor, um, Joe Pettig,
the pastor there said that according to statistics, 90% of
Christians were not reading the Bible, 90. So, um,
Does that, I mean, if you're not reading the Bible,
you don't know who God is, you're not being sanctified.

(10:42):
Does that make you a true Christian? The second question is,
if you say I'm a Christian, but I don't like
what the Bible says, I'm not going to do what
it says there, because I just don't care about it,
but I'm a Christian. Does that make you a true Christian.
And the last one is in Matthew 7:23, when God
says depart from me I never knew you, um, what,

(11:02):
you know.
A true God would know a true Christian. So if
he doesn't know us, what is the requirement for God
to know us? What makes him know us? Yeah. Hi, Barbara.
It's nice to hear your voice. Hi. Um, yeah, I
think that's a great question, and I think, you know,
we've been addressing that question, kind of the bigger question

(11:25):
all year in our studies through Mark's Gospel, right?
And I don't know if you remember, but going back,
we talked about how, you know, the Bible actually doesn't
use the word Christian the way that we do today
to identify followers of Jesus. The words used 3 times
in the New Testament, but the consistent word that is
used for those who are Jesus's people, those who belong

(11:47):
to him, is disciple, right? And we've been talking about
this regularly, a disciple is someone who uh is with Jesus.
They spend time
Uh, knowing Jesus, studying Jesus, following Jesus, uh, a disciple
does what Jesus does. He practices the teachings or she
practices the teachings and the ways, um, the words, the

(12:12):
lifestyle of Jesus, and finally, a disciple does what Jesus does, right? Uh,
takes up Jesus's identity and mission that the Father sent
him on. And I think if we can hold to
that understanding that what
Jesus calls us to is not Christianity, this kind of
vague title where we all just kind of make up,

(12:32):
you know, kind of the agenda for our lives, and
what we prioritize or don't prioritize. If we come back
to the original documents, we find, oh, this is what
Jesus is actually calling us to, discipleship to him.
You know, I think it really answers kind of all
the questions that you are asking here. You know, well,
you know, maybe not, you know, reading because we understand
that the first century world and even for, you know, ages, right,

(12:58):
most of the world was illiterate, and so what we
had was, you know, cultures where they were oratory, they
uh memorized and they, they heard scripture rather than
Read scripture the way that we do, right? They don't
walk around with bags of scrolls and do this, though
some people would have access to those things because of
their wealth. But, so a disciple is someone though, who

(13:21):
cherishes the words of scripture, holds them dear, even though
they may not read them every day, they live their
life to be in line with the witness of scripture
as we're talking about a moment ago, because this is
who Jesus is. He is the fulfillment.
He is the ultimate witness of the scriptures. He, you know,
they find their uh fulfillment and their all their hope

(13:45):
in him. And so as disciples, we're gonna want to
be about scripture tuned into the voice and the will
of God. And then yes, you know, going back to
your question at the end, um, Jesus knows his people
and they know him. There's an intimacy there, it's relationship.

(14:05):
And so, um,
I don't know about the statistic that you were given
um by this individual pastor, and I, I have found,
and I've, I've made this mistake, that's the only reason
I'm bringing it up. I think sometimes this data can
be really misleading, and I recently read some data, I
think I shared it last week on here where, you know, saying,
oh well, you know, uh, the divorce rates in the

(14:26):
church are the same as the divorce rates in the world.
That is an inaccurate data point.
And it's basically polling from just those who claim to
be Christians. When you look at the other data, they
are not involved in their church. They do not give
to the mission of God, they do not serve in
their church. They actually don't hold many of the Christian
doctrines that we just talked about. These are not

(14:47):
Actual Christians, right? These are not true disciples of Jesus.
So I wonder if we were to actually pull that
data and really look at those who identify as disciples
who are involved in their local church, who are serving
and dedicated the mission of God, how many of them
read scripture? And I imagine that the data would be
much different on that. And because that is disciples have

(15:09):
an intimacy, a closeness, they want to be with Jesus, right?
They understand that they've been rescued and redeemed. This isn't
a
Oh, I have to read my Bible. It's, man, I
want to understand and know this God of love who
has rescued me and redeemed me. Richard? Yeah, and as
you were speaking about the first Christians, I was thinking about, um,

(15:32):
so imagine you you're looking at the book of Acts
and the first believers were all Jewish and so they had,
they had the Old Testament scriptures by and large, and
but then imagine you're one of the first Gentile Christians.
You've only just heard a man tell you.
About Jesus, you don't have a working knowledge of the Testament.

(15:55):
You don't have any of those things, but with their heart,
they believed on the Lord and a many men and women, and,
and we don't, we believe what Mark was written around
maybe 60 AD, the first of the gospels. So there's
a 30 year gap before there's even writing, you know,
that we would call scripture.
And so there's oral traditions that people are living on.
So they're really not reading anything, but they're devouring the

(16:18):
oral traditions that they heard and they're holding steadfast to
those things, you know, and I think even Paul talking
to Timothy, you know, even when there was parchments, he says,
just remember the thing.
You heard me teach to many people in your when
you were there listening to me. And now you teach
those same things. So there's this, this, this oral tradition,

(16:39):
the things that people were hearing be taught about the
gospel and they were being passed on. So, you know,
what little somebody knows. I mean, how much do you
need to know about Jesus to be saved? I think
that's a real important thing. The, the, the sanctification process,
that's the work of the Holy Spirit who is constantly.
revealing more and more to our hearts of the of

(17:01):
who Jesus is and we, we, we live by faith
in in the Son of God. And so the rate
at which, like, you know, I hadn't when I got saved,
I didn't know anything about the Bible.
It took me a few months to get my head
around the fact that, well, this is what I have,
the Bible's important.
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's such a great question too

(17:21):
that Barbara is bringing up, like, what does it require
for us?
You know, to know God, right? To like you said, Rich,
to experience salvation.
And you know, there's a statement that is repeated throughout
scripture that, you know, salvation is of the Lord, and
Peter picks up this theme on the day of Pentecost,

(17:41):
and he says this, whoever calls on the name of
the Lord will be saved. And he's saying, that's it.
That's all that you need, right? You know that you
need rescue and you know that God alone is the
one who has it. I think that's all that we need, right?

(18:02):
And of course, there's a whole world to inherit once
we enter into the world of discipleship and those things,
but you have to get in, you know, simple faith. Yeah,
that's what scripture requires. What do you think, Barbara?
Yeah, I'm, I'm, um.
I, I got my question answered, um, you know, being

(18:24):
a disciple is what, what the term is, rather than
being a Christian, and I got all my, all my
questions answered, um, in regard to that question. But then
I have a follow up question because you've been talking
about it. So are you saying that
Somebody who accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior, but

(18:47):
is doing bad things. This is still safe, let's say,
like someone who is a thief or is a killer.
And he says, yeah, I said she's my lord and
savior by faith, but he's not, you know, he's like
doing very wrong things.
Yeah, I think that's. Make me be safe. And also
if and sort of the same in regards to being safe,

(19:10):
the same thing about so now we say somebody says
they accept she's my Lord and Savior, but I'm not
gonna uh follow, I'm not gonna read the Bible at all.
I'm not.
Learn about it, not about God. I'm not gonna do anything.
I'm just gonna say I'm a Christian. I'll maybe just
go to church every Sunday and that's it. I mean,
I feel being saved still. Yeah, yeah, and I think

(19:32):
that that really, you know, calls into question, what do
we mean by saved? You know, we throw this term around.
Um, and so, you know, in no way, you know,
are we fooling God with any of this. You know,
there's this line that Paul says, I think it's to Timothy,
where he talks about that there are those who profess
to know God, but deny him by their deeds all

(19:52):
the time.
I think that that's what we see many times is
the people have a misunderstanding of what it actually is
to know God, what it actually is to be saved.
To be saved means to be given a new heart,
to be given new inclinations, to be born again from above,
of the spirit, of the life.

(20:14):
life of God, and so the life of God is
now working out in our lives. Our desires are being
changed to want the things that God wants to pursue
the things that God pursues, like justice and mercy, and righteousness,
and love. All of that is going to be working out. So,
if you find someone that professes to know God, but
there are no good works that follow.

(20:35):
this, their deeds are just reflecting that of their past
and of their, you know, the world and culture around them.
The conclusion is this person has not experienced salvation and
does not know God. Whatever they might have experienced, right?
It could have been a powerful moment, a moment of conviction,
a moment of, um, you know, spiritual breakthrough where they

(20:58):
realize things, but what they have not experienced is salvation. Yeah, right?
And so there is more work to be done, right? Yeah,
I think, I think of uh the words of John
in 1 John 3:9, no one born of God makes
a practice of sinning because he says, for God's seed
abides in him, you know, the new birth isn't just

(21:18):
a theological term, it's a reality that happens and it
says that he cannot keep he cannot keep on sinning
because he's been born of God. So you might not know.
Three verses of the Bible, but if you've been born
of God, there's this new life in you that's teaching
you to not practice. Yeah, I've got this friend from

(21:40):
up north, just such a beautiful woman, um, who gave
her life to Jesus during the, the hippie movement that
was happening up in the Bay Area. Uh, I think
she's an organ at the time when she, you know,
Jesus found her, she found Jesus.
And she tells a similar story to that, you know,
she didn't know anything. She was baptized at a nude baptism,
like that's what they knew, right? Like, you know, they

(22:02):
were living on this commune thing.
And she talks about like uh the way that she
uh basically set aside drugs and alcohol. It was way
later in her walk with Jesus, right? Like she was
still smoking weed all the time, dropping LSD in these things,
and it happened over time, this conviction grew, oh, this
doesn't fit. Like, uh, she was put in a situation

(22:25):
where she felt helpless, with a life and death situation
cause she was so high out of her mind.
And she just felt this deep conviction from the Holy
Spirit afterwards, like, your whole life is now about following
Jesus and helping others, and here you are, you cannot
help someone on the verge of life and death. And
she's like, oh my God, it was just like this

(22:46):
radical light shone and showed her how out of step
she was with Jesus, and that would, but so I
just love what you're saying there, right? The, the spirit
of God, God's life resides in his people.
And so, if there are areas of our lives that
are out of sorts with Jesus, that cannot last long, right?
The conviction of the spirit to move us into consistency

(23:09):
with Jesus will be taking place. Now some people would
say that that your friend up north, her true conversion experience.
was that day when she gave up the drugs and
everything else, but you're saying no, I don't, yeah, I
don't think so. Whoever calls in the name of the
Lord shall be saved. Yeah, I think we, we often
confuse just salvation, justification what God has done with that

(23:34):
work of sanctification and
You know, I think that we don't give enough grace
to the learning the new rhythms of being a disciple,
of being a new creation, uh, the rhythms of grace,
and that's something that, man, yeah, God has so much
grace and compassion for us in that growth.

(23:55):
learning process, just like we do with our kids, right,
and their adolescent, like, you don't know this stuff. We're
teaching them, we're modeling for them. We are helping them.
We are restoring and forgiving them and setting them on
the right way. That's what God is doing with us
in this process of sanctification. Yeah, as a, as a,
as a fairly new Christian, I, I got a job
doing mobile home repair stuff and the guy that was

(24:15):
working with me was this guy named Russ, and we
became like really quick friends and, and he was saying, gosh, Richard,
I gotta tell you.
I'm really struggling with with I just I wanna keep
smoking pot and I just, I know I shouldn't be.
I just don't, do you have that struggle? I said, Ross,
I'm sorry that like I woke up the next morning

(24:38):
I give my life to Jesus and I never wanted,
I never had a desire for it ever since then.
But I, I don't think you're not, not say I
don't think you're not saved because you're struggling with this.
This is just your, this is the pace of you
getting closer to Jesus and he knows this is where
you're at and he, the fact that you're even talking
about it is an evidence that God's at work in you.

(25:00):
So not everybody, this story is not over. We, you know,
we tend to go this is my experience and then
we look at somebody else and if their experience doesn't
match our experience then well.
Must not be authentic. It didn't take, uh, Barbara, thank
you for your phone call today here on Pastor's Perspective,
and now we'll go to Anaheim. Here is Irene who

(25:21):
called 888-564-6173 to talk to Char Broderson and Richard Cimino. Hello, Irene,
thanks for calling in.
Well, hi, I've been thinking about Noah and the ark,
and I was wondering how he got the whales on.
Oh, yeah.
Well, I think the whales would have been OK in

(25:41):
the water.
I'd be my answer. I don't think he had to
pull them along. I think they just lived in the water,
I think, so that's my, I, we don't know anything
about like what are the details like, like, other than,
you know, they, they, they came to the arc is
what the account says, what, how, how did they get

(26:04):
on there, how they all fit on there, uh.
Yeah, and I think we understand from the record that
it's the land animals and the birds that would need
some kind of shelter, not the, you know, scripture put
it like the creatures of the deep, right? These marine animals, yeah,
aren't gonna need that. So they just tagged along.

(26:27):
I think, yeah, well, I think like Richard said, they
just continued their merry lives, you know, maybe a little
turmoil and a whirlpool here and there, but yeah.
Does that help you, Irene?
Yes, thank you very much. You're welcome. Have a good day, Irene.
Thank you for calling in today. 888-564-6173. Roberts in Laguna Woods,

(26:48):
you're next. Thanks for, uh, listening on the Kwave app
and thanks for calling in today.
Absolutely. Um, first of all, yeah, thanks for taking my call. Um,
my call, as you probably see there, has to do
with how God knew English was gonna be the national
or the international language before English was invented. And the
point being that, and God has a sense of humor too,

(27:11):
I think we can definitely say that because what he
said that's with the name of Israel. In English it
says Israel, Israel is real or
Zerubbabel, Zaruba ball. So when who led, you know, the
Israelis out of Babylon? It was Zerubbabal, meaning zero babble,

(27:34):
and the Jews one. And then just that's, I know
that's not a scientific thing there, but I think it's funny.
The other thing real quickly on Hebrews, I have a
quick speculation. Sure. People have asked about who wrote it. I,
there's a possibility.
That maybe Jesus Christ himself wrote it on a scroll
and Paul wrote the last chapter of it.

(27:57):
This thing is interesting to talk about stuff like that.
Have you ever thought of that ar? Could Jesus have
written the book of Hebrews? Well, I think, yeah, that
that fundamentally goes just against our understanding of what scripture is.
I do think it is, I mean, it's a really
interesting fact that we have nothing written by Christ, right?

(28:18):
Of all that he spoke and all that he did
that he never put pen to paper, you know, kind of.
Um, and I do think that there's something so unique about, uh,
what we believe about scripture that it is both God
breathed and human in its origin, right? That, you know,
as Peter says, that God moved upon the prophets and

(28:41):
that they wrote the words of God, that, you know,
no scripture came by private interpretation, but, you know, this
is how God worked. He worked through the men and women, um.
To tell his story that Richard was talking about earlier,
at their time and their context for particular reasons to
assure them of his plan of salvation, of his presence

(29:04):
with them, of his justice that was at work in
the world and would come finally. And, and I think
that this is so interesting because what we find in, um,
you know, the cult of Mormonism or even in Islam
is we find golden tablets that are given.
And are just simply received by humans, and that's not

(29:24):
what we have in the pages of Scripture. We have
something so much more relational is that God is among
human beings and working and telling his story through them.
It's great.
Robert, thank you for your phone call today. Here on
Pastor's Perspective, we're gonna take a break and then we'll
be back with more of your questions. What do you
want to ask Shar Broderson and Richard Cimino? They're gonna

(29:47):
be here for another 30 minutes. Grab an open line.
888-564-6173 is our number 888-564-6173.

(30:17):
Welcome back to Pastor's perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number to call. 888-564-6173.
Char Broderson, the lead pastor of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa,
is here. So is Richard Cimino. He's one of the
assistant pastors at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, and we
I would love to talk to you for the next

(30:38):
25 minutes. 888-564-6173. Tamara, you're gonna be next, but first,
let me read a question that was sent in online.
This one is from Cathy and Paul, who are asking
about 1 Samuel 15:2. Can you explain the title Lord
of Hosts? What does the Lord of Hoss mean? Char? Oh, yes. Hello. Hi. Welcome. Yeah,

(31:00):
what does the Lord of hosts mean? Uh, there's a
couple different ways to translate it.
Uh, I really like Eugene Peterson's. He uses the Lord
of heaven's armies, I think is what he uses there.
He says this is the God of the angel armies,
God of the angel armies, yeah. And so some would
believe that this is a reference then to, yeah.
Uh, the heavenly hosts are God's servants, his angels, his

(31:23):
messengers who do his will. Others might see within this, uh,
something that we would read, I think in Psalm 85
is the passage I'm thinking of, um, a reference to
the divine counsel. So there, I think it's Psalm 85 again.
It says, you know, Yahweh sits among the gods, and
these are the ones that he has, you know, uh,

(31:45):
You know, for lack of a better word, uh, deputized
to perform justice and, you know, carry out righteousness in
the world. There are these principalities and powers that are
over different regions, and there, God is judging the gods
in this particular passage. So some would see uh the
host as a reference maybe to the other divine beings.
As well, so we're, we're not totally clear on what

(32:07):
is a reference to. I lean more on, uh, the
idea of heaven's armies. There is a host that surround
God's throne and worship him and do his will. All
this time I thought it was radio hosts, and that's
been my life first. I've got it on a bumper
sticker on my car and everything, and no, I'm joking, but, uh,
so disappointing.

(32:27):
I'm gonna have to redo all those t-shirts now. Anyway,
Cathy and Paul, thank you for sending in your, uh,
question on the pastor's perspective Facebook messenger. And now here's
Tamara calling in from North San Diego and, uh, welcome, Tamara,
thanks for calling 888-564-6173.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
Hi there. Thank you so much for taking my call. Um,
I was going to a church, uh, last week with
some friends, not my home church, and, um, the pastor
said there was a woman, um, that went there who
could speak in tongues, and he called her up on stage.
And she spoke in tongues, and he immediately translated it.
And I just was wondering, I don't just, um, disbelieve

(33:08):
in speaking in tongues, but can you even do that
on demand like that and then have someone translate it
right then and there on demand? It just seemed kind
of showy to me.

Speaker 1 (33:19):
Yeah, it's interesting. Um, it's a great question. I think,
you know, it's really important to understand, you know, the
purpose of spiritual gifts, and probably the most clear teaching
we have on this is from Paul's letter to the Corinthians.
And so,
You know, in 1 Corinthians chapter 12, he talks about,

(33:40):
you know, different things. He says there are different kinds
of gifts, it's the same spirit that distributes them, they're
different kinds of service, that God, you know, kind of
appoints to his people, it's the same Lord, different kinds
of working, but in all of them and in everyone,
it's the same God at work. And so Paul understands
that there are all different ways that God wants to
use his people and include them in his work. And

(34:01):
I love this in verse 7, he, he makes it
very clear.
To each one, right? So that's every single person that is,
you know, belongs to Jesus as a disciple of Jesus.
He says to each one, the manifestation of the spirit
is given for the common good. And then he lists
out all of these different gifts, um, and manifestations of

(34:24):
how the spirit might work. And I think there are
kind of two ways that we want to understand.
Um, what Paul's talking about here. I think he's talking
generally that when the church gathers together, God moves upon
his people, and they are to him, uh, instruments through
which he can make known his will. He can, you know,
perform the common good. He can do good works through them,

(34:46):
good words, encouragement, all of it is about building and strengthening, helping, correcting,
and God uses his people as these vehicles to do that.
And so there does seem to be kind of this like,
Um, open-endedness to this, and what I mean by that is,
this is possible for any of us. And so that
when we gather with God's people, we need to realize, hey,

(35:09):
God might want to use me in a way that
he never has before, to manifest his spirit for the
common good. So I want to be in tune with
what God is doing, sensitive to, you know,
The message that's being taught, the mood of the room,
the person next to me, how might God use me
to do good to this individual. Paul also seems to
be indicating that there are these set gifts that Christians

(35:33):
actually
Um, oh, it's less open-ended in in the sense of like,
this is regular, repeatable. We have these gifts of prophecy
or a gift of tongues, a gift of um administration,
a gift of helps, and these are things that we
can actually perform at will. There, there are things that

(35:54):
um ways that we um work with God to do
this stuff of common good. So it's a little more fixed.
Does that make sense?
And so I think it does make space that there
are these gifts that can happen on command in that
sense of, you know, we can give a prophetic word,

(36:16):
you know, prophetic word is declaring God's word to God's people,
speaking directly to uh a felt need of hurt, fear, um, brokenness,
whatever that might be, bringing God's word to bear on that.
That can be an aspect of prophecy, and we can
do that by
You know, knowing scripture, understanding a need, and speaking the

(36:37):
truth to that need. There are specifics of scripture, or
give me a prophecy with a word of wisdom, a
word of knowledge. I won't get into those right now,
but I, I, saying all that, I do think that
for those who have the gift of tongues, at least
that I know, they can pray in tongues at will. Yeah.
And so I don't think that that is far fetched.

(36:57):
I don't think that's actually something weird, and I, I
am very pleased to hear that there was also an interpretation.
I wonder kind of what the context was, because I
would lean away from the performative. I'm just not that
type of person.
I don't think it's helpful without clear context, perimeters, uh,

(37:18):
you know, so I, I would be curious about the
context in which this happened and how it was kind
of set up or followed up with, but, um, to
just plainly answer the question, yes, the gift of tongues
can be used at will with an interpretation. That is
totally in the realm of possibility and how the spirit
might use us for the common good of the people

(37:41):
of God.
Does this help you, Tamara?
Yeah, thank you so much, Richard, did you want to
chime in? I'm great. All right, Tamara, thanks for calling
in today to Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is our number. And
here's Jeff, who's also in San Diego. Welcome, Jeff, to
Pastor's Perspective.

(38:01):
And after things are just pulling out of a car wash.
Car wash, drive-thru, we've heard them all now here on
Pastor's Perspective.
Well, now that your car is nice and clean, what
is your question for us?
Yeah, I had a question for you. Um, is, uh,
Judas is scary, uh, since he was, uh, basically said

(38:25):
he's tempted by the devil, right, uh, taken over by
the devil, possessed by the devil to, to, to do
what he did and gain the 30 pieces of silver.
My question is really simple. Do you think he is saved?
What do you think, Richard?
Um, I do not.
And um I, first of all, again, um I think

(38:47):
we want to think of like what's the setting in
which this is taking place. And there was something about
the life of Judas that he had seen the same
things that the other 11 guys had seen.
And along the way, they all had their their their
ups and downs in their faith, and Jesus is he

(39:09):
is so graciously, he's so wonderfully making himself known in
his words and his ways, and his works to them
to to to deepen their faith in him as the Messiah, right?
But
Judas saw the same things, and I think he concluded
this is not the king I want. And I don't

(39:32):
think he ever was really a a a disciple. I
think he was there hoping to hop on the Messiah's
train and have what he wanted and to have some
this is gonna be a very transactional thing that I
have with with Jesus.
And I think because of that, he was the the
a great candidate for Satan to inhabit. Absolutely. Yeah, it's interesting.

(39:56):
John the apostle, you know, he writes that note along
the way.
About how Judas kept the money bag and he used
to take from it and then he has this, you know,
kind of statement there. Well just so you know, he
was a thief the whole time and would commonly do this.
And so I think what John wants us to understand
is that Judas was never right from the beginning. His
heart was never in that place of being a true disciple,

(40:17):
and Jesus knew it. You know, haven't I, you know,
appointed all of you and one of you is a devil,
he says, right, at one point in time.
And so it, it seems to be clear that Judas
is never a true disciple, and yet you think about
like what Richard's saying all along the way, gosh, man,
front seat, front row to experience all of these things
firsthand from Jesus to be given power in Jesus' name

(40:40):
to cast out.
Demons to see the works of God, and yet his
heart is hardened by these things, and he performs, you know,
these evil deeds all the while taking from the common purse,
and I think even just the end of Judas's life,
I don't know if we do this enough, we should
contrast that, I think, with the life of Peter, because

(41:01):
at that last moment, Peter denies Jesus, just as, I mean,
maybe he doesn't hand him over to be crucified, but
he denies him, right?
You know, curses, you know, I damn me to hell
if I know this man. He's calling down Yahweh's curses
upon him if he has any association with Jesus. I mean,
that's radical. You think about what he's doing there. And

(41:23):
of course, you know, Judas, we know he betrays Jesus
and Judas, you know, Peter feels awful about it. He,
you know, tears and runs away and
You know, we know the restoration of Peter. Well, Judas
does something similar. He, you know, I have sinned against
innocent blood, he tells the high priest, he throws the
money at them, right? He runs out and he takes

(41:43):
his own life. And I, I'm not saying that this
is an indication about what happens to those that take
their life. That's not what I'm saying, but I think
you look at the end of Judas's life and you
look at the end of Peter's life, Peter,
You know, holds on, seeks Jesus even at the grave
where Judas just completely despairs. Peter is found by Jesus,

(42:05):
restored by Jesus, reinstated, yeah. And so I think even
just the end of their stories kind of show us,
you know, who is a true disciple and who is not.
Some might say, why did Jesus even spend time or
or waste his time with Judas? Why did he bring
him on as one of the 12 when, I mean,

(42:26):
he knew he was, I mean, was he trying to
give him a chance? Was he trying, I mean, what
do you? Yeah, I think that we see in Judas
a microcosm of, you know,
All of those who experienced the grace of God, the
mercy of God, the kindness of God, he's put breath
in their lungs, given them life, and they bear his image. They,
you know, use his world, and all along, they will

(42:48):
never recognize him, they will turn their back on him.
And I think in all day long scripture tells us
God's hands are stretched out. Yeah, right? I think Judas
is a microcosm of this. This is how good and
kind God is.
That he even loves those who will never love him
in return, never recognize him in return and will even
in the end just turn their backs on him.

(43:10):
Jeff, thanks for your phone call, and I'm glad we
got to you after you were done with the car wash,
cause it would have been really noisy inside of that
uh contraption there. Here's Gail in Riverside, who called 888-564-6173.
How are you, Gayle?
Hi, I'm blessed. Thanks for having me. Yeah, how can
we help you?
OK, so I've been a member of a spirit-filled church

(43:33):
for a while, and my husband and I were studying
out 1 Timothy 2:11, and we both came to the conclusion, well,
I came into agreement with him that I should, I,
a woman shouldn't be a pastor, the title of pastor,
but that, that she could teach women's ministry, women, but

(43:55):
that men shouldn't sit under her.
And, um, the church that I go to, they have
women who are pastors, and I hear that I haven't
went to any council with them yet. I'm talking to
you guys first, but, um, so I'm, I'm just like,
I'm not in 100% agreement with them, therefore, I'm not

(44:15):
in unity with them, but I am an intercessor in
the intercessor team.
Um, and I bring my grandson, and, um, I'm not
feeling OK about that part, but there are, um, sermons
that only men do pastor, and there is a woman,
a woman's, you know, um, where all the women get together,

(44:39):
which I'm a part of that, but because of the
whole mantle of the
Progressiveness, I guess I'm somewhat confused whether I should just
stay and not attend, or are they, um, are they,
is the Holy Spirit not telling them the same thing
that I believe he told me when in clarity.

(45:02):
Yeah, Gayle, let me, uh, let me jump in and
just kind of begin framing some of this stuff for you.
I think, um, in my seminary experience, my, my professor,
he gave us a really helpful way to approach scripture,
and he said, what we need to do, there's some
things that are really unclear in scripture, some passages were like,
what does this mean? He says, what we need to

(45:24):
do is we need to take the clear passages of
scripture and bring those to bear on these things that
are unclear.
And so I think when it comes to the question
of women leaders, women pastors, I think what we need
to do is we actually need to go back to
the very beginning.
And we need to do what Jesus does when he's
asked about divorce, right? And can a man divorce his

(45:44):
wife for any reason? And Jesus takes him back to
this ideal from the beginning. Oh, from the men from
the beginning, he created them, male and female. And what
we find in the beginning is that God has created
both male and female in his image, and together they
reflect God's image as partners.
And they are called together to rule over God's world,

(46:07):
to work with God, to spread his kingdom to the
ends of the earth. Now, this is not something that's
just given to Adam and Eve comes along as well.
Some people say that, that is not in the text.
This is given to both of them. They are called
to do this. And I think we need to think
about what redemption means for humanity.

(46:29):
Now, scripture in Genesis chapter 3 tells us that all
of this kind of, you know, struggle for dominance and
power to, you know, be in charge of one another
has something that has come in through sin. It is
not God's original ideal that we lord over one another,
but from the beginning, equal partners and dignity and worth,

(46:52):
and in purpose and an identity to work with God
to build his kingdom.
So, what I believe, scripture makes clear, is that Jesus
has brought us back to that ideal. Men and women,
we're told in Joel 2, are given the spirit of
God to prophesy, to declare God's word to God's people.

(47:16):
Men and women are redeemed, I believe, called back to
this original intent to image God, to partner with God,
to spread his kingdom to the ends of the earth.
I think when we come to a passage like
Timothy, and what Paul is writing there, we need to
understand that there are some very unique issues that are

(47:37):
going on in the church in Ephesus. We know from
the Book of Acts that there's a cult of Diana,
and the cult of Diana has a different redemptive narrative
for women.
Um, Diana, her other name is, um, Artemis, right? And
she actually experiences some kind of virgin birth. It's, it's

(47:58):
a false narrative of redemption for women. And I think
what Paul is doing there with Timothy is he doesn't
want that influence in the church in Ephesus. He is
protecting against the sound doctrine that has been passed down
to Timothy, and so he doesn't want any of those
women leading.
But notice, when we come to the church in Corinth,

(48:19):
Paul wants both men and women to prophesy. And again,
prophecy is declaring God's word to God's people, to build
them up, to strengthen them. Another term we use for
prophecy is preaching. Now, something else interesting that we find
is that the work of pastoring is a work of caring.

(48:41):
That's what it is, right?
A, a shepherd or a pastor cares for his people,
or excuse me, for his sheep. He feeds them, protects them,
and leads them. And we actually need both men and
women to do this in God's church. Um, you know,
I can't
Speak um over my children the way that my wife can.

(49:04):
She has different gifting, different perspective, different abilities and insights
that I marvel at. She blows me away, and I
am anemic without her.
I need her at the table. God's church needs faithful mothers,
sisters at the table, to care and lead God's people.

(49:27):
And I think actually what we're doing here is we're
bringing kind of a 1950s America to bear upon the text,
and when people depart from that, we're.
Saying, well, this is progressive. I would love to point
out that the assemblies of God have had male and
female pastors for a very long time, and they're doing
quite well in the realm of orthodoxy. They are not progressive,

(49:50):
they are not losing the plot and giving up the
orthodox faith. They're holding to the creed and to the
one faith that has been passed down to us. So,
I do
Do not believe that appointing women as pastors to lead
in God's church, to care for God's people, to speak
over God's people for their good, is in any way progressive.

(50:10):
I'm glad you brought, real quick, I'm glad you brought
up the creed again because nothing in the creed. So
you would say that as long as this woman pastor
identifies with the apostles creed, then
Yeah, it's not a cult, that's for sure. Uh, but
there's also nothing in the creed that says it can
only be a man pastor. Now, I know there would

(50:31):
be people who say, but the Bible says that, and
the Bible trumps the creed. I get that. But what
would you say?
It's interesting, actually, the Bible doesn't say men only pastors.
This is the one passage here where Paul's explicit, I
do not allow a woman to teach or have authority,
and I think he is speaking very specifically to the
issue there in Ephesus, as I just mentioned. Um,

(50:54):
There is a passage in Ephesians, interestingly enough, where Paul
is just setting up the faith for, um, you know,
we understand that this is a general letter that was
passed around to the other churches, just explaining to us
God's redemptive plan through Christ Jesus, which, you know, includes
both Jew and Gentile, and now we get to step

(51:16):
into this, you know,
whole cosmic redemption that Jesus is performing, right? And in
it he talks about how Christ, when he ascended to
the throne of God, he gave gifts to human beings,
and he appointed apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers for
the equipping of the saints, for the work of the ministry.

(51:37):
Those are non-gender specific.
He never says there, oh, and he appointed men, apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds,
and teachers, but he says he gave gifts to human beings.
And so I actually believe that male and female can
hold these offices and can perform these duties.
As long as they are in line with what the

(51:57):
scripture teaches, right? Following in the way of Jesus, true disciples,
you know, Paul and his list that he gives to
Timothy and to Titus, he is much more concerned about
the quality of Jesus-like character in these individuals. That's what
he's concerned about, and he only gives two requirements for,
you know, ability, which is managing their own households, and

(52:18):
that they are able to teach. Richard. Yeah, and here's
one thing I think it's really important.
The
The people who are gonna say these guys are wrong.
They, you mean the ones outside picketing right now? The
people who are gonna say like, like Char Char's position

(52:40):
on women in ministry is unbiblical.
You're, uh, you need to understand there are people who like.
They are Bible believing, they are fierce inerrantists, they follow
Jesus with all of their heart, and yet they just, they,
they're not discounting scripture. They're saying this is how I

(53:01):
read scripture. This is how I understand the scripture.
And there are other people, um, I was trying to
find this, this chart I have on, on positions on
women in ministry, and it had these various authors like
one of the guys that is that is that adheres
to exactly what Char and he's my favorite, like one
of my favorite guys ever is Gordon Fee and Gordon

(53:21):
Fee would Charles echoing Gordon Fee exactly. And you read
his work on scripture and he
He's so profoundly in love with Jesus and his theology
just exudes. It's like theology meets doxology with him. His
theology is just overflowing with worship and praise to God.

(53:43):
And yet then there are other guys who just who
don't agree with him at all, and yet they they
love Jesus just as much. What you have to determine.
I believe you have to go, is this the place
God wants me to be? I'm sitting here on staff
as a as a pastor here on staff with Char
because I believe what he believes. I, I think what

(54:04):
he says is like on point. So I'm, I'm not gonna, I,
I couldn't be here if I didn't. So what you
need to do is go, if this is just not
where I am. They're not ungodly, they're not they they
they're not not followers of Jesus, they haven't thrown the.
Bible out the window. I just don't I don't agree
with how they read that passage. And so you need
to go where you believe I can sit and hold

(54:27):
fast to that. Yeah, yeah, and that comes back like
you said, Brian, a moment ago, you know, differentiating between
creeds and confessions. The creed is the thing that we
hold to. This is orthodox faith that has been passed
down to us, and the confessions, a good way to
put it is like Richard said, how we read and
understand the scripture.
The things that we believe we are, you know, called
to emphasize and want to facilitate and, you know, I'm

(54:51):
thankful that there are other denominations out there that believe
differently than I do on these open-handed issues. They, they
challenge me. They, they help me, you know, articulate my
convictions in these ways, you know, so.
Yeah, and the last thing I would say to Gayle is, yes,
if she, if she feels that she needs to go
to another church, that would be better than her possibly

(55:14):
staying in this church and maybe sowing division amongst other people,
you know, that she really shouldn't be up there. I mean,
we've seen that happen and sure, I would say, you know,
back to Gayle's point, like she's calling us first, great,
you know, good, do your background work, maybe find some
books just about church leadership, about women in leadership. There's
some really great ones out there, and I would say.

(55:34):
Encourage you to talk to your church leaders, find out
why they believe what they believe, what their conviction is
behind both men and women leading in the church. And
I think you'll find just a very stimulating Jesus loving
conversation for sure. Gail, great phone call. Thank you so much, Janice, Nicholas, Mariano, Renee,
everyone else who we couldn't get to today. We'll be

(55:56):
back tomorrow from 3 to 4 p.m. Pacific time. For
Char and Richard, I'm Brian and thanks for listening and
watching Pastor's Perspective.