August 4, 2025 • 56 mins
Pastors' Perspective is a one-hour call-in program where listeners can call in and get answers to questions about the Bible, Christianity, family, and life. The program is live Monday through Friday from 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM Pacific. You can call 888-564-6173 to ask your questions.
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Speaker 1 (00:17):
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez.
It is Tuesday, the 29th of July, and we are
here until 4:00 p.m. Pacific time to answer the questions
you might have about the Bible, Christian faith, how to
walk the Christian walk, how to tell your neighbors about Jesus,
questions like that. We, uh, answer them every weekday afternoon
(00:38):
from 3 to 4, today being no exception.
And to answer your questions today, we've got Richard Cimino.
He's one of the assistant pastors at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. Hello, Richard,
thanks for coming in today. Hello, great to be here.
And we've got a special guest, if I'm not mistaken.
It's his first time ever on Pastor's perspective. He's joining
us online. He's the pastor of Calvary Nexus.
(01:03):
And his name is Bruce Zachary. So Bruce, where is
Calvary Nexus? Is that here in America? Is it on
planet Earth? I mean, with a name like Nexus, what
does that mean? Yeah, so, first of all, longtime fan,
although first time rookie experience and in getting to respond
to some of the questions from followers and listeners and
just appreciate you, Brian and Richard, it's.
(01:25):
Such a pleasure to have the opportunity to be with you.
You are a fount of wisdom. Calvi Nexus is in Camrio, California,
so I am halfway between Los Angeles and Santa Barbara.
I am 90 miles from Costa Mesa, planted the church
almost 30 years ago, February it'll be 30 years. Pastor
Chuck came and dedicated our building, and so I had
(01:46):
the privilege of serving at Costa Mesa before coming here
to plant and
It has been an incredible experience, yeah, and so nexus
means a connected group or a place of connection or
a focal point of connection. And so that's how we
adopted that name. Great name for a church. Now, Richard,
do you and Bruce know each other? Yes, we know
(02:08):
one another, especially through um Calvary Global Network meetings and participation.
And um I got to hear Bruce speak at this
past Calvary Chapel, the, the Calvary Global Network International Conference
and um it was the first time I ever heard
him teach. I've heard him plenty in conversations and always
(02:31):
have admired his his reason, his logic, his organizational thinking,
high executive function guy right there and, and then I
found out in the course of that Bible study that
he was a trial lawyer.
Which then everything made perfect sense to me. Oh, this
is why he thinks the way he thinks. Oh, you
can understand like this. Yeah, I was raised in an
(02:53):
observant Jewish home. I was a trial lawyer for a
couple of decades, and so the joke, a rabbi, a pastor,
and an attorney walked into a bar. It was Bruce.
I end the punch line.
Oh, that's great. So that's interesting that mid, I don't
wanna say midlife, but midway through your, you know, 20 years,
you said a couple of decades that you were a
(03:14):
trial attorney and then you just shifted gears. I mean,
we have a lot of young people who go straight
to Bible College, but to do it like that and
especially a trial attorney, I would imagine financially you might
have been doing OK, so to give it all up
to start a church or to work at a church.
Yeah, so I, I have worked with church planters and
(03:35):
pastors in the Cy Chapel movement for um decades, and
during that time, I've met a lot of church planters
who knew they were called to be pastors and church
planters very early in life. For me, it was nothing
that I was aspiring to. I was teaching a home
Bible study in Santa Ana while serving Costa Mesa, and
(03:55):
there were about 45 to 50 people, uh, that were
coming and um
Everyone around me knew I was supposed to be a pastor.
I was the last one to discover it and yeah, um.
When uh God called us to plant the church in Cambria,
it was almost like an audible voice. It was so
certain and, um, for me, I felt like if I
(04:18):
ran from that call, it would be like Jonah and
God would make my life more miserable if I ran away,
so I accepted the call, and no regrets. Um, I
think there's one time in my life when I
Walked in to visit a friend, and his foyer was
larger than my whole home, and I thought, like, I
could have had this. And the Lord gently corrected me
(04:39):
and said, If that's what you want, Bruce, you can
have it. And it was the last time I had
a thought like that. So I would say to, uh,
young men, young women that are listening, if you feel
a call in your life in regard to ministry in
regard to service, that is a good and noble call,
and you won't regret. For sure, yeah.
(05:00):
All right. So if you live up in the Camarillo area,
and I know Kwave gets up into that area on
AM 11:10, if you're looking for a church, check out
Calvary Nexus. You can get service times, etc. on their website,
which is Calvarynexus.org. Nexus, spelled like Lexus, but with an N. N.
(05:20):
EX Calvarynexus.org. And if you've got a question for Bruce
or Richard Cimino, give us a call 888-564-6173. You can
also send in your questions online through the Kwave.com Pastor's
perspective page. That is what Paul did. He lives in Irvine.
He actually sent us two questions. First one,
(05:41):
It is in regards to Matthew 22:36 through 40, where
Jesus is asked which is the great commandment in the law?
And Jesus replies, You shall love the Lord your God
with all your heart, with all your soul, with all
your mind. Um, the second is like it, you shall
love your neighbor as yourself. So Paul's question.
(06:03):
Is it possible, in particular, to make America great again
and in general to make the world a better place
to live by keeping God's commandments? What do you think, Bruce?
Yeah, I think it's, uh, first of all, I appreciate
it's a nuanced question, Paul. So, uh, when we say
make America great again, uh, different people would associate different
(06:25):
meaning with that term, uh, but I think if we
contemplate it from a biblical perspective, from a Christian worldview,
Jesus said that the essence of all of the law
and the prophets could be distilled to the idea that
we love God supremely and we love our neighbors as ourselves.
And that's really the essence.
of being right in relationship with God as well as
(06:48):
right in relationship with others. And so I think that
is arguably the greatest thing we could do for America
is actually follow Christ, love God supremely and uh love
our neighbors as ourselves.
Well, I'm, I think, I, I might have misread or
missed missed something here in the question because he says in, um,
(07:12):
in particular to make America great again and in general
to make the world a better place to live by
breaking God's commandments, which is a poke at Donald Trump,
his moral character. So he said by breaking. So in
other words, like, are we gonna make America great by
disobeying God because we're following this guy who obviously breaks
the laws of God.
you know, that a poke at him. And then if
(07:35):
the destruction of the environment we live in is a sin,
shall we continue to do this? So he's got environmental concerns,
probably poking back at the the thing about like we're
going to break God's commandments by by having allegiance to
this guy who's like obviously not exactly, you know.
Doing what God's asking him to do and, and, and
(07:58):
plus our environmental policies. So do we just keep doing
that and grace is going to abound because he did
reference Romans 5:20. The law entered that the offense might abound,
but horse abounded grace much more abounded, so he's wondering
if we, uh, continue destroying the environment, uh, will God's
grace abound. That was his second question so it's pretty
sarcastic on both I think, I think, um, you know, um.
(08:22):
Bruce, your answer is absolutely correct, if we read it
as keeping, because there is no better way to demonstrate
the the the heart, the ways and the the the
ethos of the kingdom than to love God and to
love our neighbors. That is the expression of the heart
and the ways of our king, but this guy's just
definitely got a gripe, um, a political gripe and a
(08:44):
um environmental policy gripe.
And um I'm not invalidating either of his folks, um,
but just kind of saying they'd probably be a better
way to get to the point. My apologies to Paul for,
I don't know why, I just assumed you used the
wrong word and you meant to say keeping God's commandments,
but Richard, the wise one over here, he, uh, it
(09:07):
seems like he read into what you were trying to
get to. So, OK, uh, that being said, Bruce, I
think you had something else you wanted to add.
Yeah, uh, by the way, Richard, you do speak wisdom fluently,
which is a pleasure, but I, I think, yeah, as
to humanity is given the responsibility to steward the planet, and, um,
in many respects we're not doing a great job, and so, um,
(09:30):
we don't
want to continue to uh try to have grace abound more. Uh,
Paul makes that pretty clear in the next few verses
in Romans 6:1 that sin should not abound, so the
grace should abound more, but trying to craft policy regarding
stewardship of the planet and its resources is well beyond
(09:51):
my pay grade. Yeah, well, you know, I know, I
think we all agree it's a good idea. Yeah, well,
there was a time when
I honestly like in, you know, uh, my, my concern
for the environment, I was very cynical towards people who
were verbally like very, um, in my, in my mind
were being like really like out there in terms of
(10:15):
environmental care and I was like, why would I recycle
anything this it's all gonna burn anyway, right? Like that
was that's my thing like as a Christian, I believe,
you know, it's all gonna burn like at the end
and it's like.
And then you grow in grace and in the knowledge
of your Lord and your Savior and you begin to
go like, no, this is the world that he made
and he were made in his image and he commissioned
(10:36):
humans to steward his creation and suddenly it's like, oh,
that's my commission. So I, man, if anybody out there
is listening this kind of oh it's a tree hugger
or why are we worried about this or that and
the other.
It's like we we should care because this is God's
(10:56):
creation and one day it's gonna be a new creation,
but in the interim,
The way we get to show that we're under the
rule of God is the way we take care of
His creation, for sure. Paul, thank you for sending in
your question through the Kwave.com pastor's perspective page. Now, let's
go to the phones. JJ will get to you after
we speak with Mimi, who is calling in from Upland
(11:17):
listening on the Kwave app. Mimi, first of all, thank
you for downloading the app, and thank you for calling
in today. 888-564-6173 is the number Mimi called. And, uh,
go ahead, Mimi, what's your question?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
OK. My question is maybe it's uh 3 questions in
uh in uh in one. first, uh,
Is the Israel of the Bible the same as Netanyahu's
Israel today, and should we pray for Israel today, or
what should we do? Do we approve of what he's doing?
Speaker 1 (11:50):
All right, Bruce, what do you say?
Yeah, so, Mimi, I, I really appreciate uh the questions,
and I appreciate that it's a very nuanced issue. Uh, so, first, uh,
is Israel today, the nation state of Israel established in
May of 1948, uh, the same as Israel of the Bible. So,
(12:11):
as to that question, it is, uh, layered in the
sense that, um, Israel is associated as the nation state.
The Jewish people. So in some respects, it has a
connection to Israel of the Bible. It is also an
ethnic identity, and so it's a nation state. So the
nation state established in 1948 is distinct from the promises
(12:36):
that God made to the Jewish people in the Old Testament,
and we believe that God intends to fulfill all those promises,
but that's a separate question.
Should we pray for uh Israel? Should we pray for
the Jewish people? Absolutely, we should also pray for Gaza,
we should pray for Palestinian people, uh, that, um,
(12:59):
As, um, the first question that was asked from Paul
kind of intimated that thought about, uh, Christian nationalism and
make America great again. I think it's most important for
us to remember that Jesus died for Americans of the
North American variety, the South American variety. He died for Koreans,
(13:19):
of the North Korean and the South Korean uh variety,
and he certainly has a heart for Ishmael and for Hagar.
And the Arab people and God's desires to see uh
Palestinians come to faith. He doesn't want to see anyone
on the planet uh suffer.
Uh, oppression or injustice. So we should be praying for
(13:39):
the Jewish people, we should be praying for people and
for peace throughout the Middle East. And until Jesus returns,
we don't believe that there will be a lasting peace
in that region or anywhere else on the planet. That
is not the nature of humanity and uh our tendency
towards war. Uh, the question regarding Benjamin Netanyahu and his policies, um,
(14:04):
I think that's a complicated issue, a nuanced issue as
a head of state and a people that um experienced
an act of terror or an act of warfare on
October 7th and have sought to return their citizens to the.
Plan, um, they are acting presumably in the way that
(14:24):
they feel best for their protective interests, as well as
to regain the hostages who still remain, uh, in captivity.
And that doesn't mean that I'm affirming his policies as
being ideal or perfect or something that I would necessarily adopt,
but I can understand to some degree the reasoning behind it,
(14:44):
and that doesn't mean that I'm agreeing with it or
affirming it from um my
Perspective is going to be my own, as opposed to
the viewpoint of Calvary Chapel or the Calvary Global Network. Richard,
anything to add?
Yeah, and my thoughts, um, um, is today's Israel the
same as in the Bible and you made some great,
(15:07):
you know, um,
Divisions isn't the right word I'm looking for. You might
help me with that vocabulary there, Bruce, but distinctions, um,
between what we're talking about the, the, the Bible of
the the the is Israel is of the Old Testament
and the new uh or or Israel today, um.
(15:31):
But I do believe that um there is
Some similarities between them. Um, and we see the, the, when,
when Israel was behaving in ways as the as the
the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the, the prophetic
(15:52):
role was that the prophets were actually referencing the covenant
that God had made with Israel um um through through
Moses on Sinai.
And they were like, they were the um covenant police,
and they would say, you, you have broken covenant with God.
You you've broken covenant with Yahweh, and because this is
(16:13):
the way you've chosen to live outside of God's covenant,
then God said that when you did, this would be
this would be the consequence, and we're here to announce
that that's going to be the consequence, unless you repent. So,
for us to just because they're because we're saying, well,
you know, um,
Uh, Israel's like the the apple of God's eye that
(16:35):
we're that we're supposed to kind of turn a blind
eye to everything that God never turned a blind eye
to the uh the, the, the misdeeds of the people
who were the apple of His eye. And I think
we need to be able to step back right now
and kind of go, OK, when we're looking at the
way people that, I mean, we're not, we're not again, not.
We're not defending nor accusing, we're just saying reality is,
(16:59):
is that we can't just look at one side and
say they're the bad guys, and these guys are always
the good guys because they're these guys. And um I
think the church, you know, a lot of evangelicals, they, they,
they tend to err like whatever Israel does is the
good thing because they're Israel.
And they can't do bad things and um and we
(17:21):
approve the God approves it just because they're descendants of Abraham,
Isaac and Jacob. So um
Yeah, that's that's one of the things that I just
want to throw out there. I, I'm interested to hear
your your thoughts on that, Bruce.
Richard, I, I agree with you. I, I don't think
that we as uh Christians, as followers of Christ have
to adopt the view that everything that Israel does as
(17:43):
a political entity is right or kosher, if I could
use the term without being too cheeky here. Um, but
the idea of Israel being back on the map, the
a Jewish state.
Uh, a gathering of God's people after the destruction of
the temple in 70 AD and the dispersion of Jewish
people from the ancestral homeland that God had promised, and
(18:06):
he has promised to gather his people and return them
to that place.
And so the existence of Israel as a Jewish state
on the planet has biblical significance and prophetic significance, and
that should not be overlooked, but that doesn't mean as
a nation state that all of their doings are consistent
with the biblical worldview.
(18:28):
All right. Oh, go ahead. No, that's OK. OK, Mimi,
thank you for your phone call today here on Pastor's Perspective.
888-564-6173 is our number. And, uh, JJ listening on the
Kwave app in San Juan Capistrano. Thank you, JJ, for
calling into Pastor's Perspective today. You're on with Richard Cimino
and our guest Bruce Zachary, the pastor of Calvary Nexus
(18:50):
in Camarillo. Go ahead, JJ.
Awesome. Thanks for taking my call like always, and I
appreciate it. But uh, yeah, my question today was personal
for uh Pastor Bruce, and I was just wondering, uh,
I think I heard you in the beginning say that
you were observant Jewish. I was just wondering how you
(19:10):
came to Christ. OK, and why do you ask this question, JJ?
Uh, it's just personal. I just, I'm always interested in
people's testimonies, especially if they come from like, other religions,
and they say they're observant, so I assume that they
were dedicated. So like, I would have asked too if
he said he was an observant Muslim. Yeah, all right,
(19:34):
appreciate it. Tell us, Bruce. I try not to take
up too much time.
So, I was working in San Diego, California, and uh
got a job offer and transitioned to Orange County. And
so I was looking for a home in Orange County.
And there was a real estate agent that I was
working with, and we would drive by a main artery
in uh the city of Orange, and someone had painted
(19:56):
on their garage door and Coca-Cola script, praise the Lord.
So every time we would drive by the street, I
would make some mocking comment, like, praise the Lord. And
uh at one point, he just said, I really wish
you wouldn't do that. Uh Gus is real to me.
He's my Lord and Savior, and I really appreciate that.
Uh, if you don't say that every time we go by,
(20:16):
and I still respected that he was willing to offend
a client or potential commission, um, and at that point, uh,
he invited me to come to church with him at
Calver Chapel, Costa Mesa, and there's two things that my
people know. One is guilt and the other is Chinese food,
and so at that point, I felt so guilty for
(20:37):
stepping on this guy's toes. Um, it really
Wasn't a, a sense of wrong about the blasphemy, but
that I offended. And so my first time at a
Protestant church was Cy Costa Mesa at the time there
were pews in the sanctuary. I went to the last
pew and sat on the end so I could make
a quick escape. I didn't know what was gonna happen. Um,
(20:59):
The guy with a guitar came out with a woman
who I later found out was his wife. It was
John and Lisa Wickham, and the worship was pretty simple,
but real quick just to let everybody know if that
name sounds familiar, that is Phil Wickham's mom and dad
and Evan Wickham's mom's dad. So, yeah, yeah. Oh, sorry,
spoiler alert. Can you just keep to yourself? I'm gonna
(21:22):
shut off my mic right now.
No, by that time, um, all of these people had
come in, and now I'm sitting in the center of
this pew that would hold about 75 people. So I
have about 35 Gentiles on either side of me. And
when the guy comes out with the guitar and strums
the first chord, everybody starts standing up and lifting up
(21:43):
their hands and closing their eyes and and
Praising God, and I really hadn't seen that in the synagogue.
And then uh an older guy came out with a
really deep baritone voice, asked people to open up their
Bibles and all right, and um we know that as
I looked at.
And as I looked at the people to my left
(22:04):
and my right, they, they all had Bibles with highlights
in them and little margin notes. And I was thinking
to myself that my people are the custodians of the scriptures,
but we never studied the Bible like that. We never
studied the scriptures like that in the synagogue. And I
was being stirred to jealousy before I even had an
idea what Romans was about.
(22:24):
the idea of Jews being stirred to jealousy as God
poured out his blessing on the Gentiles. And so I
asked my friend if I could hold on to the
Bible that he let me borrow borrow. And it was
a new King James open study Bible. And in the
back of that Bible, there's Messianic prophecy from the Old
Testament and where they were fulfilled by Jesus in the
(22:45):
New Testament. And as part of my background as a
trial lawyer, I knew evidence, I knew evidence beyond a
reasonable doubt.
I have a minor in philosophy, so I understand uh
logic and probability. And so I didn't need somebody to
tell me an illustration of the state of Texas covered
with silver dollars and me jumping out of a plane
(23:06):
with a blindfold and reaching down and grabbing one silver
dollar and having a red X on it. Um, I
began to understand beyond any reasonable doubt that Jesus had
to be our people's messiah from the evidence, and that's
how God worked in my heart, JJ. Wow.
And and and the story of what you went through
(23:28):
upon making that decision relative to your family is a
story that needs to be in print somewhere for people
to read. It's a powerful, powerful thing you shared that
that night too, so. Yeah.
Yeah, do you have to, I was gonna say, how
about the elevator version? Can you give us that? Yeah, so, um.
(23:50):
Coming home to my parents' apartment and um telling them
the news that I had come to believe that Jesus
was our people's messiah, they were not really thrilled with
the idea, and I remember saying to my dad, um,
you know, my dad was a man of great faith.
I said, Dad, you brought me up to obey God,
and this, these are the reasons why I believe that
(24:12):
Jesus is a people's Messiah, and I was making the
case from the Old Testament scriptures, the prophecies.
And uh my dad proceeded to tear his shirt and a,
a sign of mourning and said, our son is dead.
And my mom, who was only 4'10, and that's where
I got my stature from. Uh, my mom turned every
(24:33):
single picture of me in, uh, the apartment, every picture
that I was in in the apartment face down and said,
our son is dead. Um, my older brother, um, labeled
me a traitor to the faith, and, um,
I explained to my family, I said, you know, if
you can show me from the scriptures why I'm wrong,
(24:55):
I will recant my faith immediately, but until you can
do that, I'm gonna continue to follow GS as our
people's messiah. And so, um
By the grace of God, was able to reconcile with
my family. My mother came uh to faith after my
father had passed, was living with uh my wife Karen
and I, and came to faith, um, at a Bible
(25:17):
study that was going on at her house in, uh,
Santa Ana. And my brother hasn't come to faith yet, yet,
but we're praying. Yes, wow, that is amazing. So yes, uh,
a book, maybe even a movie. I mean, you know,
let's let's, let's share this story. That is amazing.
JJ, thank you for calling in with your question today, and, uh,
(25:39):
it got Bruce to share his story. That was great.
888-564-6173 is the number to call in today and, uh,
we're gonna go to Carmen, who's also calling in from Upland.
We are the most listened to radio program in Upland
right now. I think Bruce Zachary has a huge following
in Upland. That must be it. So that's why people
are calling in today. They knew he was gonna be on,
(25:59):
and they said, let's call. So, uh, Carmen, what's your
question for us today?
Yes, hi, um, thank you for taking my call. I
was wondering, I am a born again believer, and I
was just had a question about if Jesus comes back
for me, either through rapture or I happen to die, uh,
and I have not repented of a, a sin that
(26:21):
I was doing, will that keep me from going to heaven? Richard,
what do you say?
Well,
I think there's one
Well, context is really important.
If this is outright protracted rebellion against God,
There's reason to think long before you die, or before
(26:46):
the the Lord's return that you have something that's not relationally,
you know.
It's not consistent with relationship with God. Um, in First John,
John says, uh, those who practice sin, um, they're not
born of God, because when you're born of God, um, you're, you, you,
you're kind of you're literally spiritually you become his child, and,
(27:09):
and John paints the picture that his seed is in you,
like there's there God has planted his nature in you
and therefore his nature is contrary to sin.
And so there's a new bent in our life towards holiness. Now,
there are a number of sins in my life that
I acknowledge, these are not right ways to behave, and
(27:32):
but they're not the practice of my life to behave
that way, but the fact that they are not completely
eradicated would be proof that I haven't fully repented of them.
And so but when I commit them.
I repent of it, and I go forward in the
in the the the hope of the scripture that says
(27:53):
God's at work in me both to will and to do.
He's gonna empower me to do with his good pleasure, and,
and yet there's gonna be an, I, you know, there's
another time when I do it.
So does that mean I haven't repented of my sin? Well,
I did repent of that sin, and now I have
to repent of it again. And I don't think that's
the same of just saying, well, now I've given my
life to Jesus, quote unquote, and yet um I I
(28:17):
I know um it is outside of of his will
for me to
You know, I'm gonna be absurd here, rob banks, but
I'm just gonna keep doing that because I just, you know,
I just can't help myself. I have to keep robbing banks.
And, and then you think you're gonna go to heaven.
(28:38):
And, and I don't think that's that that is a
failure to repent. You, you've essentially insisted upon saying, I
can live my way, but name Jesus as king. I've
named Jesus as my king, but I realized there are
still many times in many ways that I don't, I
(28:58):
don't live as my king would want me to live.
I grieve over those, I repent of those, and I
want to live as best I can. Yeah. Bruce, 30 seconds.
Yeah, Carmen, I appreciate the question. Uh, the only unpardonable
sin is rejecting, uh, the work of the Holy Spirit,
bringing us to salvation in Christ. And as Richard said,
(29:20):
once we've been born again, we still have a flesh
nature that we're going to struggle with, but
Uh, we are grieved when we sin, we confess and repent,
and God is faithful to forgive us, and we should
be making progress towards sanctification, um, in, in practice, because
Christ is working in us to transform us to be
more like Him through His Spirit, and that work will
(29:43):
be completed, and we can be confident of that work,
Philippians 1:6.
I, I, at the end, on the other side, something
to add, yes, for sure, and Bruce, thank you for
clarifying what the unpardonable sin is because Richard left us
thinking that it was robbing banks, but, uh, apparently that's
not the case. We'll be back here on Pastor's Perspective.
Give us a call.
(30:17):
All right, we are back on Pastor's Perspective, waiting for
your phone call at 888-564-6173. Got about 25 minutes left
in the program and we'd love to hear from you.
If you're watching on Facebook, YouTube or Instagram, you see
the number there on the bottom of your screen. Call
in 888-564.
6173. You can ask your question of our guest, Bruce Zachary.
(30:40):
He's the pastor of Calvary Nexus in Camarillo, California, and
Richard Cimino, one of the assistant pastors here at Calvary
Chapel Costa Mesa. Right before the break, we were talking
to Carmen and Upland, and, uh, Richard wanted to add
something to what Brew said. Yeah, you're talking about the
unpardonable sin, you know, and that is the, it is reality,
the only sin that can't be forgiven.
(31:01):
Is the sin of rejecting the work of the Holy Spirit,
revealing to you the fact that Jesus is the one
and only way to be saved. There's no other name
given under heaven among men whereby we must be saved.
And it reminded me of um.
This moment that it was after a Monday night Bible
(31:22):
study here at Calvary Costa Mesa and um I believe
it was when Greg Laurie was was doing the Monday
nights and after the study was over, I was out
on the platform and a young lady came up to
me and she says, do you believe um that um
once saved, always saved, or do you believe it's possible
(31:44):
to lose your salvation?
And um
I was about ready to start into this thing, cause
you have that question asked so many times and to like,
well this is a long
Um, hotly debated theological, um, issue for a long, long
time and to start to give a little background and,
(32:04):
you know, how old it is and what are the
various sides of the thing and while I was prepping
to to begin to launch into that, I felt the
Holy Spirit prompt me to ask her this question, and
it was so out of the blue. I know it
was the Holy Spirit ask her if she's sleeping with
her boyfriend.
(32:24):
And I asked her that and that was the whole
point like she wanted to know if I keep sleeping
with my boyfriend, will I lose my salvation? And I
asked it to her and she like she went white
like and she says, yes, I am, you know, we're
about to get married, but I can't and so that's,
that was the path I ended up going, but I
think the the behind the question was that was another
(32:46):
question that can I do this and not repent of it?
Can I keep doing this and um.
And still be saved. Yeah. And so, and, and it
changed the whole conversation immediately, to say the least. There's
usually a question behind the question, which is why often
when people call into the program and ask their question,
we might ask, so, like earlier, the call uh from
(33:07):
JJ who wanted to know Bruce's conversion story and
Um, you know, Bruce, uh, JJ said he was just
curious because you were an observant Jew, so he wanted
to know exactly what that meant, but, um, you know,
I just wanted to ask because sometimes that he might
have been Jewish, you, you never know. So Bruce, any
anything else based on what Richard just said? Yeah, Carmen, I,
(33:29):
I just appreciate that.
There's a lot of emotion involved in that question, and
it's nuanced, and, and we want to be pastoral in
responding to the question, not only on your behalf, but
on behalf of others who are struggling with the same question.
And so earlier we mentioned uh to another caller, Paul,
(33:50):
that we don't want sin to abound, that grace should
abound more, God forbid, um, but it's important for us
to remember that we are accepted, um.
By God through faith in Christ. It, it is by
grace that we are accepted. It's not our moral performance,
and yet, um,
We discover that as we're growing in Christ, that we
(34:15):
desire to yield to him and that our sin grieves us.
And uh if you are struggling and you're trying to
do the right thing, and you're asking God to help
you do the right thing, and you're seeking to make progress,
I think it can be encouraged. And as Richard was saying,
if you're completely indifferent to your sin, that there's no sense.
(34:37):
Of remorse. There's no desire to repent or confess. That
could be a cause for concern about whether Christ is
really working in you, whether you really have received the
Holy Spirit, a spiritual birth and uh experienced regeneration. And so,
My encouragement to you is that if you're really trying it,
(34:59):
but you're continuing to struggle with whatever the issue might be, um,
chances are God's spirit is working in you, and keep
asking him to help you to overcome whatever that might be.
And he is faithful and just to forgive us of
all of our sin if we'll confess and repent and
and
Um, the apostle John gives us that assurance from 1
(35:21):
John 1:9. So, um, I hope that helps you. Great, uh,
phone call. Thank you, Carmen, for calling us at 888-564-6173.
Richard Cimino and Bruce Zachary, uh, from Calvary Nexus is
our guest today on the program, answering your questions about
the Bible, the Christian faith, etc. etc.
(35:42):
And, uh, here's an online question that was submitted from Paul,
not the same Paul. OK, so not only are we
number one in Upland, but, uh, we're number one amongst
guys named Paul. I mean, you know, we are the
most listened to, I'm joking. Anyway, Paul is in Portsmouth,
Rhode Island of all places, and, uh, he listens on
the Kwave app because there is no AM or FM
(36:02):
signal in Rhode Island that picks up K-wave.
So Paul says, thank you for your program. I listen
from the northeast coast every day and enjoy it immensely.
My question is in Genesis 4:15. It states, but the
Lord said to Cain, Not so. Anyone who kills Cain
will suffer vengeance seven times over. Then the Lord put
(36:22):
a mark on Cain so that no one who found
him would kill him. So Paul wants to know what
is that mark that God put on Cain.
Bruce? Oh, it, it was a big tattoo that said
no touchy.
You touchy, you breaky. Uh, we, unfortunately, uh, we don't
(36:42):
know exactly what the mark is, but we can have
a sense of assurance that it was sufficient to protect Cain,
that even, um, after murdering his brother, that God was gracious,
that his
Judgment, um, allowed him to continue to live and allowed
him to continue to experience God's protection, although there would
(37:04):
be certainly consequences for his conduct, uh, but we see
soon thereafter in the fifth chapter, uh, that Lamec, uh,
is
Um,
cries out, if God had protected Cain sevenfold, then he
should protect Lamec 70 times. So it appears that Lamec
was an even greater murderer, and um in that case,
(37:28):
we we don't see God uh providing that same mark
as far as I recall, in Genesis 5. So I'm
Not exactly sure what it is. It's certainly not the
mark of the beast. We can be assured of that
in Revelation 13, but we're not sure what it is.
As far as I know, Rich might have a better answer.
I have no idea what it is. I keep thinking
(37:49):
like Italian things like you touch them, I'll break your
legs or something.
All right, uh, Paul, thank you for sending in your
question through the Kwave.com pastor's perspective page. And here's one
that was sent in, uh, online from the pastor's perspective Facebook.
Michael or Mike sent this in, uh, through.
(38:11):
Messenger. Can you all explain, Oh, so that explains where
my call is from, uh, possibly the South. Can you
all explain pre-trib and post-trib is one clearly laid out
in scripture and what is pre and post millennial? And
Dispositional versus covenant theology and allegorical viewpoints. I know this
(38:34):
is a lot, but I recently heard these topics on
another Christian podcast and would just like some clarification. Thank
you for your time, and I hope you consider my
question for on air. Yes, we did. We're doing it
right now. Uh, Bruce, what do you say to Michael?
Uh, first of all, Brian, I just appreciate you as
a host. Well, this is an easy softball type question,
(38:55):
so I'm, I'm glad you're pitching it my way. So, Michael, and, uh,
Matthew chapter 24, uh, just is overlooking from an eastern
perspective across the Kidron Valley, the Mount of Olives looking
at Jerusalem.
His disciples are so impressed with the temple and the
Temple Mount structure, and Jesus foretells that not one stone
(39:17):
is gonna be left upon another, and that you can
see the evidence literally how that was fulfilled today if
you visit Israel. But um
In telling his disciples that they asked him when that
was gonna happen and what would be the signs of
his return. And the following discourse, we know as the
(39:37):
all of that discourse. He just talked about signs that
would precede his second coming. He talked about the great
tribulation in that discourse.
And one of the doctrines that he doesn't address in
that discourse is the doctrine of the rapture. And so
Paul addresses that in 1 Thessalonians in uh chapter 4
(39:59):
verses 13 to 18, in 1 Corinthians chapter 15, and
so the
The question becomes, the rapture of the church is distinct
from the Second Coming. In the Second Coming, Jesus is
setting foot on the earth, and in the rapture, the
church is being taken up to meet Christ in the air.
(40:19):
And when we talk about the church, we
Talk about all believers from the time of Pentecost until
the time of the rapture as being the church age.
And so there are theological differences or differences of opinion
in regard to the timing of the rapture, in regard
to whether it's prior to the tribulation, in the middle
(40:41):
of the tribulation, because in the middle of the tribulation,
as described in Revelation, beginning chapter 6 through 19.
We see at a 3.5 year mark of a 7
year period. That's where God's judgment, uh, begins to get
poured out on steroids, so to speak. I, I don't
mean to make light of God's judgment. And so some
(41:02):
I believe the church will be raptured prior to the
middle tradition, or just at the middle, and then others
believe that the church will go through the tribulation, and
so that the rapture is happening at the end.
Uh, Coy chapels have traditionally been a pre-trib. Uh, we
believe that the best evidence supports the view, for example,
(41:25):
in Paul's letter to, uh, the church at Thessalike, that
same letter that he's talking about the rapture, he says
in the first chapter at uh verse.
10 that the church is not appointed to wrath, and
then he reaffirms that like a sandwich at the end
of the letter in 1 Thessalonians chapter 5, verse 9.
(41:47):
And so we believe that also we see in Revelation
4 and 5 prior to.
Uh, the great tribulation that, uh, the 24 elders, which
are seen as a representative or a picture of the church,
they're already in heaven worshiping God, worshiping, uh, Christ for
his redemption, um.
(42:08):
For his worthiness, and so they're pictured in heaven prior
to the great tribulation, and those are some of the reasons.
So let me just stop there, I guess, and, and
see if Brian, if you want to turn to uh
Richard on the pre-trip, post-trip before we talk about other issues. Yeah, Richard,
you know, the you did a great job there, Bruce,
thank you. Um, I, I would just draw as a
(42:30):
very concise resource, um, an author, Doctor John Waldward.
Um, W A L V 00 R D. um he's,
he's with the Lord now, but he was the former
president of Dallas Theological Seminary.
And um he wrote a little book called The Rapture Question.
(42:51):
And in that book, he lays out the various positions
um relative to the rapture.
Um, and especially, he also talks about pre and post millennialism, um,
explained gives a very brief and clear definition, and then
he states his views, um, in support of a pre-tribulation rapture.
(43:14):
Um, it's, it's such a handy book. It's written in
a way, it's not like a, a seminary, you know,
post grad level writing, but it's a guy who was
a professor and president of a post, you know, graduate
theological seminary distilling these things, uh, in a really great way.
So first of all, I really highly recommend that you
(43:34):
grab that book and I think his resources are still
available online. You can get it, you can just go
get a bunch of his stuff there.
Um, but, uh, I think maybe this would be a
a a place to kind of start to lean into
what does it mean to be pre-millennial or post millennial, um,
(43:55):
and I know for a lot of people there's just
some confusion about, about what that means, um, uh.
The assumption that the the term millennial comes from the
number 1000, right? A millennium is 1000 years and um
and it's a reference to um a literal reign on
(44:18):
the earth of Jesus, um, but this comes in and
in the, by the way, I said great when you
pointed out that that this the all of it discourse
is not about the rapture.
And I remember reading some of Walbert's stuff, and he says,
you cannot preach the rapture from the Olivet discourse. It's
not about that. It's about the things that will precede
(44:40):
his return to the earth. It's about his second coming.
And so around the issue of his second coming is, well,
is he going to come after 1000 years passes on
the earth or uh or an undeterminate long period of time?
Is that gonna be happening before his return, or is
(45:02):
his return gonna happen and then following that, he'll reign
for a literal 1000 years, and so there's, you know,
there's in amongst those views pre-millennial, post millennial, there's dispensational pre-millennialism,
there's historic pre-millennialism. There's not there's, it's not a very
flat line, it's not a flat subject to be talking about.
(45:23):
There's a lot of millennia there's a lot of views.
Um, but Christ will return after a long era, not
necessarily over 1 1000 years, um, and kind of, uh,
it's kind of almost like, um, the kingdom is gonna
unfold progressively until finally, you know, the reign of Jesus is,
is expressed so well on the earth that he returns.
(45:46):
And so Bruce, if you wanna throw in on any
of that, please feel free. It's, again, Rich, I think you.
Well versed in Bible knowledge and so appreciate. Yes, so Michael, uh,
you'll find uh the discourse regarding the millennial kingdom in
Revelation chapter 2, I believe, um, and I would just add, again,
(46:07):
not saying an official position of Calvary Chapel or the
Calvary Global Network, but
In my experience, most Calvary Chapels uh view the scripture
and our eschatology, our end times timeline with the view
that Christ's return is prior to the mime. And then
he's setting up a literal kingdom on this earth for
(46:28):
1000 years before establishing our eternal kingdom, uh, New Jerusalem, um,
what we would describe it as our heavenly eternal, uh, abode.
And that kind of brings us to the question of
um dispensational systematic theology versus covenant or reform, if we
(46:49):
can delve into that, right? Yeah, for sure, go for it.
Yeah, so, um,
In a dispensational systematic theology, um, we are looking at
a literal interpretation of scripture, especially Bible prophecy. So, for example,
where something is clearly a metaphor, when Jesus says to
(47:10):
the Jewish people wanted to take them under his wings,
he's not a giant chicken. When Jesus says, I am
the door, he's literally not a piece of hardware.
Um, it's a metaphor, and so we understand, uh, metaphor
as a literary device. But generally speaking, we're, we're interpreting
the Bible literally and certainly in regard to uh Bible prophecy.
(47:32):
And a dispensational framework will also distinguish between God's covenant
people Israel and
God's covenant people, the church, that there are promises that
are made uh to the church that are distinct, uh,
but promises made to Israel will also be fulfilled, that
the church is not replacing Israel, and that seems to
(47:54):
be well supported by Paul's writing in Romans chapter 9
through 11. People might, um,
Disagree about how many uh dispensations, and when we use
the term dispensation, we're talking about God dealing with humanity
in his redemptive plan in a progressive way. And, and so, um,
(48:16):
some would argue that there are 7 dispensations, the first
one being innocence before Adam and Eve and the fall,
then a dispensation of conscience, then human government, uh, after
the flood and
Um, Noah, talking about the, the right of capital punishment,
the responsibility.
Uh, then beginning in Genesis 12 with Abraham, the dispensation
(48:39):
of Thomas, the next dispensation involves law, and that's really
starting with uh Israel entering into the covenant Exodus chapter 20.
And then we have uh the covenant of grace, which
is really Acts chapter 2, verse 4, all the way
through Revelation 20:3, and then the millennial kingdom would be
(49:01):
the next dispensation leading into.
Uh, the eternal kingdom. So, um, those are some of
the distinctions.
So much wisdom and information you guys on today's episode
of Pastor's Perspective. This is great. By the way, really quick,
the book that Richard Cimino mentioned from John Walford is
called The Rapture Question. It is available on Amazon and
(49:25):
Walford again is spelled W A L V 00 R D.
Uh there's also a a website that's uh got his
um
His, uh, what do you call it, uh, it's, it's
his website. It's Walford.com. So if you go there you
can read a lot of the, um, yeah, really rich, rich.
(49:45):
Check that out.
Yeah, one other resource that I would recommend to my
or anyone else who really wants to get a very
thorough overview of eschatology is written by Arnold Fruchtenbaum. That's
F like Frank, R U C H E E N
B A U M, and the title is Footsteps of
(50:06):
the Messiah.
Uh, Futimam was a Jewish believer. I believe his, uh,
publishing is REL press, and it's just a very thorough,
I believe it was a PhD dissertation, but it seems
like every Bible prophecy in the Old Testament, he's outlined
um its place in end times prophecy. Fantastic, and I
(50:30):
agree with Richard's recommendation on John Walworth. He's wonderful.
So again, that recommendation from Bruce, the Footsteps of the Messiah,
a study of the sequence of prophetic events by Arnold Fruchtenbaum.
You can find that online. And, um, thank you also, Bruce,
for correcting me. The words should be dispensational. I think
(50:50):
I said dispositional, which, as it came out of my mouth,
I thought, that doesn't sound right, but I just kept
on going, and, uh, so thank you. I appreciate that.
I appreciate your grace. We're all about grace today here
on Pastor's Perspective.
Let's talk to Joan calling in from Aliso Viejo listening
on FM 107.9. Hi, Joan.
Oh, hi. Um, thank you. Um, you, um, the pastor
(51:15):
from Camarillo, who is a Jew, um, mentioned a book
that was given to him or he found, and then
he read that gave a lot of, uh, the prophecy
from the Old Testament.
And I, I want the name of that book, but
that I think it was a Bible.
(51:36):
Yeah, uh, Joan, I appreciate the question. It was actually
just uh the new open study Bible, and that is
published by Tom Thomas Nelson Publishers. They have the copyright
on the new King James version.
And that new open study Bible, I uh assume that
it continues to be in print, and it has many
(51:59):
indexes or uh references in the back of that Bible,
and one of them has prophecies in the Old Testament
concerning the Messiah and where Jesus fulfills them in the Gospels, um,
and so that was the resource, the Bible. Well, new
open study Bible.
Yes.
(52:20):
And, and please name the publisher again, I'm writing. It's,
it's Thomas Nelson Publishers, and they own the copyright on
the new King James version of the Bible. Oh, OK.
All right. I just want to tell you very quickly
that I was brought to the Lord by um a
completed Jew, a Messianic Jew who was 26 years old
(52:42):
and opened the Bible to me, and so.
It's just very special. Well, that's encouraging. Yeah, that's wonderfully encouraging. I,
I appreciate your question, Joan, and your interest. Did you
grow up Jewish as well, Joan?
Oh, no, no. OK.
So, but it's just wonderful to hear about Jews finding
(53:02):
their Messiah. Yes, indeed. Thank you for your phone call
today here on Pastor's Perspective. Let's do one more. This
one was sent in online. It's from Nadine in Hillsboro, Oregon,
who writes, I just lost my dog due to internal bleeding.
It was a sudden devastation.
Other than Jesus, he was the livelihood of our home.
My question is, do our pets go to heaven when
(53:24):
they die? Are there any scriptures to back it? If so, Bruce,
what do you tell Nadine?
Yeah, uh, first of all, Nadine, I'm so sorry for
your loss. Um, I have been a dog person most
of my life, and it's always very painful to lose
a pet. Um, I used to think that dogs went
to heaven and cats were eternally separated from God, um,
(53:48):
but now I have a cat and I found out
they're pretty cool. And, uh, in terms of scripture, we don't.
See any scripture that, uh, specifically says that our our
pets would be with us in heaven. Um, my wife's
business partner, who is like a daughter to me, um,
she has a great love for animals, and she makes
(54:09):
uh a pretty effective argument from the notion that heaven
is a place where we are eternally happy and content,
and that her presumption is that our pets would be
there with us, but
Uh, we don't see a biblical case, uh, verse that
makes that clear, and so it would be conjecture at
(54:30):
this point, but I, I hope you're comforted following this loss,
and I, I'm very sorry, and my, uh, friend Liz
would tell you you have nothing to worry about that
your uh pet is going to be there with you.
Richard is for me to, uh, quench that hope.
(54:51):
No, you don't want. No, cause I, I, I think, um.
Heaven's gonna be more than we think it's gonna be
and so I would not want to limit anything, you know,
the new heaven and a new earth and I can't imagine,
you know, that the new one's gonna be less, um,
is less than this one pets are a big part
(55:13):
of this one for sure.
Awesome. Bruce Zachary, thank you so much for joining us
today on Pastor's Perspective. We're gonna archive today's episode as
we archive all of them on Facebook, YouTube, Apple Podcasts,
and Spotify. You can find out more about Bruce's church
up there in Camarillo. Maybe you're gonna take a road
trip this summer. You're gonna go up north, you're gonna
(55:33):
be in Camarillo on a Sunday. Check.
Them out Calvarynexus.org is their website where you can get
service times, etc. Richard Cimino from Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa,
thank you for joining me in the studio, sir. So
glad to be here. So glad to have you on
on with us today, Bruce. It was great. Yes, we'll
have them on again next week. Lord willing, God bless
you guys. Thank you so much for listening to and
(55:54):
watching Pastor's Perspective.
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez.
It is Tuesday, the 29th of July, and we are
here until 4:00 p.m. Pacific time to answer the questions
you might have about the Bible, Christian faith, how to
walk the Christian walk, how to tell your neighbors about Jesus,
questions like that. We, uh, answer them every weekday afternoon
(00:38):
from 3 to 4, today being no exception.
And to answer your questions today, we've got Richard Cimino.
He's one of the assistant pastors at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. Hello, Richard,
thanks for coming in today. Hello, great to be here.
And we've got a special guest, if I'm not mistaken.
It's his first time ever on Pastor's perspective. He's joining
us online. He's the pastor of Calvary Nexus.
(01:03):
And his name is Bruce Zachary. So Bruce, where is
Calvary Nexus? Is that here in America? Is it on
planet Earth? I mean, with a name like Nexus, what
does that mean? Yeah, so, first of all, longtime fan,
although first time rookie experience and in getting to respond
to some of the questions from followers and listeners and
just appreciate you, Brian and Richard, it's.
(01:25):
Such a pleasure to have the opportunity to be with you.
You are a fount of wisdom. Calvi Nexus is in Camrio, California,
so I am halfway between Los Angeles and Santa Barbara.
I am 90 miles from Costa Mesa, planted the church
almost 30 years ago, February it'll be 30 years. Pastor
Chuck came and dedicated our building, and so I had
(01:46):
the privilege of serving at Costa Mesa before coming here
to plant and
It has been an incredible experience, yeah, and so nexus
means a connected group or a place of connection or
a focal point of connection. And so that's how we
adopted that name. Great name for a church. Now, Richard,
do you and Bruce know each other? Yes, we know
(02:08):
one another, especially through um Calvary Global Network meetings and participation.
And um I got to hear Bruce speak at this
past Calvary Chapel, the, the Calvary Global Network International Conference
and um it was the first time I ever heard
him teach. I've heard him plenty in conversations and always
(02:31):
have admired his his reason, his logic, his organizational thinking,
high executive function guy right there and, and then I
found out in the course of that Bible study that
he was a trial lawyer.
Which then everything made perfect sense to me. Oh, this
is why he thinks the way he thinks. Oh, you
can understand like this. Yeah, I was raised in an
(02:53):
observant Jewish home. I was a trial lawyer for a
couple of decades, and so the joke, a rabbi, a pastor,
and an attorney walked into a bar. It was Bruce.
I end the punch line.
Oh, that's great. So that's interesting that mid, I don't
wanna say midlife, but midway through your, you know, 20 years,
you said a couple of decades that you were a
(03:14):
trial attorney and then you just shifted gears. I mean,
we have a lot of young people who go straight
to Bible College, but to do it like that and
especially a trial attorney, I would imagine financially you might
have been doing OK, so to give it all up
to start a church or to work at a church.
Yeah, so I, I have worked with church planters and
(03:35):
pastors in the Cy Chapel movement for um decades, and
during that time, I've met a lot of church planters
who knew they were called to be pastors and church
planters very early in life. For me, it was nothing
that I was aspiring to. I was teaching a home
Bible study in Santa Ana while serving Costa Mesa, and
(03:55):
there were about 45 to 50 people, uh, that were
coming and um
Everyone around me knew I was supposed to be a pastor.
I was the last one to discover it and yeah, um.
When uh God called us to plant the church in Cambria,
it was almost like an audible voice. It was so
certain and, um, for me, I felt like if I
(04:18):
ran from that call, it would be like Jonah and
God would make my life more miserable if I ran away,
so I accepted the call, and no regrets. Um, I
think there's one time in my life when I
Walked in to visit a friend, and his foyer was
larger than my whole home, and I thought, like, I
could have had this. And the Lord gently corrected me
(04:39):
and said, If that's what you want, Bruce, you can
have it. And it was the last time I had
a thought like that. So I would say to, uh,
young men, young women that are listening, if you feel
a call in your life in regard to ministry in
regard to service, that is a good and noble call,
and you won't regret. For sure, yeah.
(05:00):
All right. So if you live up in the Camarillo area,
and I know Kwave gets up into that area on
AM 11:10, if you're looking for a church, check out
Calvary Nexus. You can get service times, etc. on their website,
which is Calvarynexus.org. Nexus, spelled like Lexus, but with an N. N.
(05:20):
EX Calvarynexus.org. And if you've got a question for Bruce
or Richard Cimino, give us a call 888-564-6173. You can
also send in your questions online through the Kwave.com Pastor's
perspective page. That is what Paul did. He lives in Irvine.
He actually sent us two questions. First one,
(05:41):
It is in regards to Matthew 22:36 through 40, where
Jesus is asked which is the great commandment in the law?
And Jesus replies, You shall love the Lord your God
with all your heart, with all your soul, with all
your mind. Um, the second is like it, you shall
love your neighbor as yourself. So Paul's question.
(06:03):
Is it possible, in particular, to make America great again
and in general to make the world a better place
to live by keeping God's commandments? What do you think, Bruce?
Yeah, I think it's, uh, first of all, I appreciate
it's a nuanced question, Paul. So, uh, when we say
make America great again, uh, different people would associate different
(06:25):
meaning with that term, uh, but I think if we
contemplate it from a biblical perspective, from a Christian worldview,
Jesus said that the essence of all of the law
and the prophets could be distilled to the idea that
we love God supremely and we love our neighbors as ourselves.
And that's really the essence.
of being right in relationship with God as well as
(06:48):
right in relationship with others. And so I think that
is arguably the greatest thing we could do for America
is actually follow Christ, love God supremely and uh love
our neighbors as ourselves.
Well, I'm, I think, I, I might have misread or
missed missed something here in the question because he says in, um,
(07:12):
in particular to make America great again and in general
to make the world a better place to live by
breaking God's commandments, which is a poke at Donald Trump,
his moral character. So he said by breaking. So in
other words, like, are we gonna make America great by
disobeying God because we're following this guy who obviously breaks
the laws of God.
you know, that a poke at him. And then if
(07:35):
the destruction of the environment we live in is a sin,
shall we continue to do this? So he's got environmental concerns,
probably poking back at the the thing about like we're
going to break God's commandments by by having allegiance to
this guy who's like obviously not exactly, you know.
Doing what God's asking him to do and, and, and
(07:58):
plus our environmental policies. So do we just keep doing
that and grace is going to abound because he did
reference Romans 5:20. The law entered that the offense might abound,
but horse abounded grace much more abounded, so he's wondering
if we, uh, continue destroying the environment, uh, will God's
grace abound. That was his second question so it's pretty
sarcastic on both I think, I think, um, you know, um.
(08:22):
Bruce, your answer is absolutely correct, if we read it
as keeping, because there is no better way to demonstrate
the the the heart, the ways and the the the
ethos of the kingdom than to love God and to
love our neighbors. That is the expression of the heart
and the ways of our king, but this guy's just
definitely got a gripe, um, a political gripe and a
(08:44):
um environmental policy gripe.
And um I'm not invalidating either of his folks, um,
but just kind of saying they'd probably be a better
way to get to the point. My apologies to Paul for,
I don't know why, I just assumed you used the
wrong word and you meant to say keeping God's commandments,
but Richard, the wise one over here, he, uh, it
(09:07):
seems like he read into what you were trying to
get to. So, OK, uh, that being said, Bruce, I
think you had something else you wanted to add.
Yeah, uh, by the way, Richard, you do speak wisdom fluently,
which is a pleasure, but I, I think, yeah, as
to humanity is given the responsibility to steward the planet, and, um,
in many respects we're not doing a great job, and so, um,
(09:30):
we don't
want to continue to uh try to have grace abound more. Uh,
Paul makes that pretty clear in the next few verses
in Romans 6:1 that sin should not abound, so the
grace should abound more, but trying to craft policy regarding
stewardship of the planet and its resources is well beyond
(09:51):
my pay grade. Yeah, well, you know, I know, I
think we all agree it's a good idea. Yeah, well,
there was a time when
I honestly like in, you know, uh, my, my concern
for the environment, I was very cynical towards people who
were verbally like very, um, in my, in my mind
were being like really like out there in terms of
(10:15):
environmental care and I was like, why would I recycle
anything this it's all gonna burn anyway, right? Like that
was that's my thing like as a Christian, I believe,
you know, it's all gonna burn like at the end
and it's like.
And then you grow in grace and in the knowledge
of your Lord and your Savior and you begin to
go like, no, this is the world that he made
and he were made in his image and he commissioned
(10:36):
humans to steward his creation and suddenly it's like, oh,
that's my commission. So I, man, if anybody out there
is listening this kind of oh it's a tree hugger
or why are we worried about this or that and
the other.
It's like we we should care because this is God's
(10:56):
creation and one day it's gonna be a new creation,
but in the interim,
The way we get to show that we're under the
rule of God is the way we take care of
His creation, for sure. Paul, thank you for sending in
your question through the Kwave.com pastor's perspective page. Now, let's
go to the phones. JJ will get to you after
we speak with Mimi, who is calling in from Upland
(11:17):
listening on the Kwave app. Mimi, first of all, thank
you for downloading the app, and thank you for calling
in today. 888-564-6173 is the number Mimi called. And, uh,
go ahead, Mimi, what's your question?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
OK. My question is maybe it's uh 3 questions in
uh in uh in one. first, uh,
Is the Israel of the Bible the same as Netanyahu's
Israel today, and should we pray for Israel today, or
what should we do? Do we approve of what he's doing?
Speaker 1 (11:50):
All right, Bruce, what do you say?
Yeah, so, Mimi, I, I really appreciate uh the questions,
and I appreciate that it's a very nuanced issue. Uh, so, first, uh,
is Israel today, the nation state of Israel established in
May of 1948, uh, the same as Israel of the Bible. So,
(12:11):
as to that question, it is, uh, layered in the
sense that, um, Israel is associated as the nation state.
The Jewish people. So in some respects, it has a
connection to Israel of the Bible. It is also an
ethnic identity, and so it's a nation state. So the
nation state established in 1948 is distinct from the promises
(12:36):
that God made to the Jewish people in the Old Testament,
and we believe that God intends to fulfill all those promises,
but that's a separate question.
Should we pray for uh Israel? Should we pray for
the Jewish people? Absolutely, we should also pray for Gaza,
we should pray for Palestinian people, uh, that, um,
(12:59):
As, um, the first question that was asked from Paul
kind of intimated that thought about, uh, Christian nationalism and
make America great again. I think it's most important for
us to remember that Jesus died for Americans of the
North American variety, the South American variety. He died for Koreans,
(13:19):
of the North Korean and the South Korean uh variety,
and he certainly has a heart for Ishmael and for Hagar.
And the Arab people and God's desires to see uh
Palestinians come to faith. He doesn't want to see anyone
on the planet uh suffer.
Uh, oppression or injustice. So we should be praying for
(13:39):
the Jewish people, we should be praying for people and
for peace throughout the Middle East. And until Jesus returns,
we don't believe that there will be a lasting peace
in that region or anywhere else on the planet. That
is not the nature of humanity and uh our tendency
towards war. Uh, the question regarding Benjamin Netanyahu and his policies, um,
(14:04):
I think that's a complicated issue, a nuanced issue as
a head of state and a people that um experienced
an act of terror or an act of warfare on
October 7th and have sought to return their citizens to the.
Plan, um, they are acting presumably in the way that
(14:24):
they feel best for their protective interests, as well as
to regain the hostages who still remain, uh, in captivity.
And that doesn't mean that I'm affirming his policies as
being ideal or perfect or something that I would necessarily adopt,
but I can understand to some degree the reasoning behind it,
(14:44):
and that doesn't mean that I'm agreeing with it or
affirming it from um my
Perspective is going to be my own, as opposed to
the viewpoint of Calvary Chapel or the Calvary Global Network. Richard,
anything to add?
Yeah, and my thoughts, um, um, is today's Israel the
same as in the Bible and you made some great,
(15:07):
you know, um,
Divisions isn't the right word I'm looking for. You might
help me with that vocabulary there, Bruce, but distinctions, um,
between what we're talking about the, the, the Bible of
the the the is Israel is of the Old Testament
and the new uh or or Israel today, um.
(15:31):
But I do believe that um there is
Some similarities between them. Um, and we see the, the, when,
when Israel was behaving in ways as the as the
the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the, the prophetic
(15:52):
role was that the prophets were actually referencing the covenant
that God had made with Israel um um through through
Moses on Sinai.
And they were like, they were the um covenant police,
and they would say, you, you have broken covenant with God.
You you've broken covenant with Yahweh, and because this is
(16:13):
the way you've chosen to live outside of God's covenant,
then God said that when you did, this would be
this would be the consequence, and we're here to announce
that that's going to be the consequence, unless you repent. So,
for us to just because they're because we're saying, well,
you know, um,
Uh, Israel's like the the apple of God's eye that
(16:35):
we're that we're supposed to kind of turn a blind
eye to everything that God never turned a blind eye
to the uh the, the, the misdeeds of the people
who were the apple of His eye. And I think
we need to be able to step back right now
and kind of go, OK, when we're looking at the
way people that, I mean, we're not, we're not again, not.
We're not defending nor accusing, we're just saying reality is,
(16:59):
is that we can't just look at one side and
say they're the bad guys, and these guys are always
the good guys because they're these guys. And um I
think the church, you know, a lot of evangelicals, they, they,
they tend to err like whatever Israel does is the
good thing because they're Israel.
And they can't do bad things and um and we
(17:21):
approve the God approves it just because they're descendants of Abraham,
Isaac and Jacob. So um
Yeah, that's that's one of the things that I just
want to throw out there. I, I'm interested to hear
your your thoughts on that, Bruce.
Richard, I, I agree with you. I, I don't think
that we as uh Christians, as followers of Christ have
to adopt the view that everything that Israel does as
(17:43):
a political entity is right or kosher, if I could
use the term without being too cheeky here. Um, but
the idea of Israel being back on the map, the
a Jewish state.
Uh, a gathering of God's people after the destruction of
the temple in 70 AD and the dispersion of Jewish
people from the ancestral homeland that God had promised, and
(18:06):
he has promised to gather his people and return them
to that place.
And so the existence of Israel as a Jewish state
on the planet has biblical significance and prophetic significance, and
that should not be overlooked, but that doesn't mean as
a nation state that all of their doings are consistent
with the biblical worldview.
(18:28):
All right. Oh, go ahead. No, that's OK. OK, Mimi,
thank you for your phone call today here on Pastor's Perspective.
888-564-6173 is our number. And, uh, JJ listening on the
Kwave app in San Juan Capistrano. Thank you, JJ, for
calling into Pastor's Perspective today. You're on with Richard Cimino
and our guest Bruce Zachary, the pastor of Calvary Nexus
(18:50):
in Camarillo. Go ahead, JJ.
Awesome. Thanks for taking my call like always, and I
appreciate it. But uh, yeah, my question today was personal
for uh Pastor Bruce, and I was just wondering, uh,
I think I heard you in the beginning say that
you were observant Jewish. I was just wondering how you
(19:10):
came to Christ. OK, and why do you ask this question, JJ?
Uh, it's just personal. I just, I'm always interested in
people's testimonies, especially if they come from like, other religions,
and they say they're observant, so I assume that they
were dedicated. So like, I would have asked too if
he said he was an observant Muslim. Yeah, all right,
(19:34):
appreciate it. Tell us, Bruce. I try not to take
up too much time.
So, I was working in San Diego, California, and uh
got a job offer and transitioned to Orange County. And
so I was looking for a home in Orange County.
And there was a real estate agent that I was
working with, and we would drive by a main artery
in uh the city of Orange, and someone had painted
(19:56):
on their garage door and Coca-Cola script, praise the Lord.
So every time we would drive by the street, I
would make some mocking comment, like, praise the Lord. And
uh at one point, he just said, I really wish
you wouldn't do that. Uh Gus is real to me.
He's my Lord and Savior, and I really appreciate that.
Uh, if you don't say that every time we go by,
(20:16):
and I still respected that he was willing to offend
a client or potential commission, um, and at that point, uh,
he invited me to come to church with him at
Calver Chapel, Costa Mesa, and there's two things that my
people know. One is guilt and the other is Chinese food,
and so at that point, I felt so guilty for
(20:37):
stepping on this guy's toes. Um, it really
Wasn't a, a sense of wrong about the blasphemy, but
that I offended. And so my first time at a
Protestant church was Cy Costa Mesa at the time there
were pews in the sanctuary. I went to the last
pew and sat on the end so I could make
a quick escape. I didn't know what was gonna happen. Um,
(20:59):
The guy with a guitar came out with a woman
who I later found out was his wife. It was
John and Lisa Wickham, and the worship was pretty simple,
but real quick just to let everybody know if that
name sounds familiar, that is Phil Wickham's mom and dad
and Evan Wickham's mom's dad. So, yeah, yeah. Oh, sorry,
spoiler alert. Can you just keep to yourself? I'm gonna
(21:22):
shut off my mic right now.
No, by that time, um, all of these people had
come in, and now I'm sitting in the center of
this pew that would hold about 75 people. So I
have about 35 Gentiles on either side of me. And
when the guy comes out with the guitar and strums
the first chord, everybody starts standing up and lifting up
(21:43):
their hands and closing their eyes and and
Praising God, and I really hadn't seen that in the synagogue.
And then uh an older guy came out with a
really deep baritone voice, asked people to open up their
Bibles and all right, and um we know that as
I looked at.
And as I looked at the people to my left
(22:04):
and my right, they, they all had Bibles with highlights
in them and little margin notes. And I was thinking
to myself that my people are the custodians of the scriptures,
but we never studied the Bible like that. We never
studied the scriptures like that in the synagogue. And I
was being stirred to jealousy before I even had an
idea what Romans was about.
(22:24):
the idea of Jews being stirred to jealousy as God
poured out his blessing on the Gentiles. And so I
asked my friend if I could hold on to the
Bible that he let me borrow borrow. And it was
a new King James open study Bible. And in the
back of that Bible, there's Messianic prophecy from the Old
Testament and where they were fulfilled by Jesus in the
(22:45):
New Testament. And as part of my background as a
trial lawyer, I knew evidence, I knew evidence beyond a
reasonable doubt.
I have a minor in philosophy, so I understand uh
logic and probability. And so I didn't need somebody to
tell me an illustration of the state of Texas covered
with silver dollars and me jumping out of a plane
(23:06):
with a blindfold and reaching down and grabbing one silver
dollar and having a red X on it. Um, I
began to understand beyond any reasonable doubt that Jesus had
to be our people's messiah from the evidence, and that's
how God worked in my heart, JJ. Wow.
And and and the story of what you went through
(23:28):
upon making that decision relative to your family is a
story that needs to be in print somewhere for people
to read. It's a powerful, powerful thing you shared that
that night too, so. Yeah.
Yeah, do you have to, I was gonna say, how
about the elevator version? Can you give us that? Yeah, so, um.
(23:50):
Coming home to my parents' apartment and um telling them
the news that I had come to believe that Jesus
was our people's messiah, they were not really thrilled with
the idea, and I remember saying to my dad, um,
you know, my dad was a man of great faith.
I said, Dad, you brought me up to obey God,
and this, these are the reasons why I believe that
(24:12):
Jesus is a people's Messiah, and I was making the
case from the Old Testament scriptures, the prophecies.
And uh my dad proceeded to tear his shirt and a,
a sign of mourning and said, our son is dead.
And my mom, who was only 4'10, and that's where
I got my stature from. Uh, my mom turned every
(24:33):
single picture of me in, uh, the apartment, every picture
that I was in in the apartment face down and said,
our son is dead. Um, my older brother, um, labeled
me a traitor to the faith, and, um,
I explained to my family, I said, you know, if
you can show me from the scriptures why I'm wrong,
(24:55):
I will recant my faith immediately, but until you can
do that, I'm gonna continue to follow GS as our
people's messiah. And so, um
By the grace of God, was able to reconcile with
my family. My mother came uh to faith after my
father had passed, was living with uh my wife Karen
and I, and came to faith, um, at a Bible
(25:17):
study that was going on at her house in, uh,
Santa Ana. And my brother hasn't come to faith yet, yet,
but we're praying. Yes, wow, that is amazing. So yes, uh,
a book, maybe even a movie. I mean, you know,
let's let's, let's share this story. That is amazing.
JJ, thank you for calling in with your question today, and, uh,
(25:39):
it got Bruce to share his story. That was great.
888-564-6173 is the number to call in today and, uh,
we're gonna go to Carmen, who's also calling in from Upland.
We are the most listened to radio program in Upland
right now. I think Bruce Zachary has a huge following
in Upland. That must be it. So that's why people
are calling in today. They knew he was gonna be on,
(25:59):
and they said, let's call. So, uh, Carmen, what's your
question for us today?
Yes, hi, um, thank you for taking my call. I
was wondering, I am a born again believer, and I
was just had a question about if Jesus comes back
for me, either through rapture or I happen to die, uh,
and I have not repented of a, a sin that
(26:21):
I was doing, will that keep me from going to heaven? Richard,
what do you say?
Well,
I think there's one
Well, context is really important.
If this is outright protracted rebellion against God,
There's reason to think long before you die, or before
(26:46):
the the Lord's return that you have something that's not relationally,
you know.
It's not consistent with relationship with God. Um, in First John,
John says, uh, those who practice sin, um, they're not
born of God, because when you're born of God, um, you're, you, you,
you're kind of you're literally spiritually you become his child, and,
(27:09):
and John paints the picture that his seed is in you,
like there's there God has planted his nature in you
and therefore his nature is contrary to sin.
And so there's a new bent in our life towards holiness. Now,
there are a number of sins in my life that
I acknowledge, these are not right ways to behave, and
(27:32):
but they're not the practice of my life to behave
that way, but the fact that they are not completely
eradicated would be proof that I haven't fully repented of them.
And so but when I commit them.
I repent of it, and I go forward in the
in the the the hope of the scripture that says
(27:53):
God's at work in me both to will and to do.
He's gonna empower me to do with his good pleasure, and,
and yet there's gonna be an, I, you know, there's
another time when I do it.
So does that mean I haven't repented of my sin? Well,
I did repent of that sin, and now I have
to repent of it again. And I don't think that's
the same of just saying, well, now I've given my
life to Jesus, quote unquote, and yet um I I
(28:17):
I know um it is outside of of his will
for me to
You know, I'm gonna be absurd here, rob banks, but
I'm just gonna keep doing that because I just, you know,
I just can't help myself. I have to keep robbing banks.
And, and then you think you're gonna go to heaven.
(28:38):
And, and I don't think that's that that is a
failure to repent. You, you've essentially insisted upon saying, I
can live my way, but name Jesus as king. I've
named Jesus as my king, but I realized there are
still many times in many ways that I don't, I
(28:58):
don't live as my king would want me to live.
I grieve over those, I repent of those, and I
want to live as best I can. Yeah. Bruce, 30 seconds.
Yeah, Carmen, I appreciate the question. Uh, the only unpardonable
sin is rejecting, uh, the work of the Holy Spirit,
bringing us to salvation in Christ. And as Richard said,
(29:20):
once we've been born again, we still have a flesh
nature that we're going to struggle with, but
Uh, we are grieved when we sin, we confess and repent,
and God is faithful to forgive us, and we should
be making progress towards sanctification, um, in, in practice, because
Christ is working in us to transform us to be
more like Him through His Spirit, and that work will
(29:43):
be completed, and we can be confident of that work,
Philippians 1:6.
I, I, at the end, on the other side, something
to add, yes, for sure, and Bruce, thank you for
clarifying what the unpardonable sin is because Richard left us
thinking that it was robbing banks, but, uh, apparently that's
not the case. We'll be back here on Pastor's Perspective.
Give us a call.
(30:17):
All right, we are back on Pastor's Perspective, waiting for
your phone call at 888-564-6173. Got about 25 minutes left
in the program and we'd love to hear from you.
If you're watching on Facebook, YouTube or Instagram, you see
the number there on the bottom of your screen. Call
in 888-564.
6173. You can ask your question of our guest, Bruce Zachary.
(30:40):
He's the pastor of Calvary Nexus in Camarillo, California, and
Richard Cimino, one of the assistant pastors here at Calvary
Chapel Costa Mesa. Right before the break, we were talking
to Carmen and Upland, and, uh, Richard wanted to add
something to what Brew said. Yeah, you're talking about the
unpardonable sin, you know, and that is the, it is reality,
the only sin that can't be forgiven.
(31:01):
Is the sin of rejecting the work of the Holy Spirit,
revealing to you the fact that Jesus is the one
and only way to be saved. There's no other name
given under heaven among men whereby we must be saved.
And it reminded me of um.
This moment that it was after a Monday night Bible
(31:22):
study here at Calvary Costa Mesa and um I believe
it was when Greg Laurie was was doing the Monday
nights and after the study was over, I was out
on the platform and a young lady came up to
me and she says, do you believe um that um
once saved, always saved, or do you believe it's possible
(31:44):
to lose your salvation?
And um
I was about ready to start into this thing, cause
you have that question asked so many times and to like,
well this is a long
Um, hotly debated theological, um, issue for a long, long
time and to start to give a little background and,
(32:04):
you know, how old it is and what are the
various sides of the thing and while I was prepping
to to begin to launch into that, I felt the
Holy Spirit prompt me to ask her this question, and
it was so out of the blue. I know it
was the Holy Spirit ask her if she's sleeping with
her boyfriend.
(32:24):
And I asked her that and that was the whole
point like she wanted to know if I keep sleeping
with my boyfriend, will I lose my salvation? And I
asked it to her and she like she went white
like and she says, yes, I am, you know, we're
about to get married, but I can't and so that's,
that was the path I ended up going, but I
think the the behind the question was that was another
(32:46):
question that can I do this and not repent of it?
Can I keep doing this and um.
And still be saved. Yeah. And so, and, and it
changed the whole conversation immediately, to say the least. There's
usually a question behind the question, which is why often
when people call into the program and ask their question,
we might ask, so, like earlier, the call uh from
(33:07):
JJ who wanted to know Bruce's conversion story and
Um, you know, Bruce, uh, JJ said he was just
curious because you were an observant Jew, so he wanted
to know exactly what that meant, but, um, you know,
I just wanted to ask because sometimes that he might
have been Jewish, you, you never know. So Bruce, any
anything else based on what Richard just said? Yeah, Carmen, I,
(33:29):
I just appreciate that.
There's a lot of emotion involved in that question, and
it's nuanced, and, and we want to be pastoral in
responding to the question, not only on your behalf, but
on behalf of others who are struggling with the same question.
And so earlier we mentioned uh to another caller, Paul,
(33:50):
that we don't want sin to abound, that grace should
abound more, God forbid, um, but it's important for us
to remember that we are accepted, um.
By God through faith in Christ. It, it is by
grace that we are accepted. It's not our moral performance,
and yet, um,
We discover that as we're growing in Christ, that we
(34:15):
desire to yield to him and that our sin grieves us.
And uh if you are struggling and you're trying to
do the right thing, and you're asking God to help
you do the right thing, and you're seeking to make progress,
I think it can be encouraged. And as Richard was saying,
if you're completely indifferent to your sin, that there's no sense.
(34:37):
Of remorse. There's no desire to repent or confess. That
could be a cause for concern about whether Christ is
really working in you, whether you really have received the
Holy Spirit, a spiritual birth and uh experienced regeneration. And so,
My encouragement to you is that if you're really trying it,
(34:59):
but you're continuing to struggle with whatever the issue might be, um,
chances are God's spirit is working in you, and keep
asking him to help you to overcome whatever that might be.
And he is faithful and just to forgive us of
all of our sin if we'll confess and repent and
and
Um, the apostle John gives us that assurance from 1
(35:21):
John 1:9. So, um, I hope that helps you. Great, uh,
phone call. Thank you, Carmen, for calling us at 888-564-6173.
Richard Cimino and Bruce Zachary, uh, from Calvary Nexus is
our guest today on the program, answering your questions about
the Bible, the Christian faith, etc. etc.
(35:42):
And, uh, here's an online question that was submitted from Paul,
not the same Paul. OK, so not only are we
number one in Upland, but, uh, we're number one amongst
guys named Paul. I mean, you know, we are the
most listened to, I'm joking. Anyway, Paul is in Portsmouth,
Rhode Island of all places, and, uh, he listens on
the Kwave app because there is no AM or FM
(36:02):
signal in Rhode Island that picks up K-wave.
So Paul says, thank you for your program. I listen
from the northeast coast every day and enjoy it immensely.
My question is in Genesis 4:15. It states, but the
Lord said to Cain, Not so. Anyone who kills Cain
will suffer vengeance seven times over. Then the Lord put
(36:22):
a mark on Cain so that no one who found
him would kill him. So Paul wants to know what
is that mark that God put on Cain.
Bruce? Oh, it, it was a big tattoo that said
no touchy.
You touchy, you breaky. Uh, we, unfortunately, uh, we don't
(36:42):
know exactly what the mark is, but we can have
a sense of assurance that it was sufficient to protect Cain,
that even, um, after murdering his brother, that God was gracious,
that his
Judgment, um, allowed him to continue to live and allowed
him to continue to experience God's protection, although there would
(37:04):
be certainly consequences for his conduct, uh, but we see
soon thereafter in the fifth chapter, uh, that Lamec, uh,
is
Um,
cries out, if God had protected Cain sevenfold, then he
should protect Lamec 70 times. So it appears that Lamec
was an even greater murderer, and um in that case,
(37:28):
we we don't see God uh providing that same mark
as far as I recall, in Genesis 5. So I'm
Not exactly sure what it is. It's certainly not the
mark of the beast. We can be assured of that
in Revelation 13, but we're not sure what it is.
As far as I know, Rich might have a better answer.
I have no idea what it is. I keep thinking
(37:49):
like Italian things like you touch them, I'll break your
legs or something.
All right, uh, Paul, thank you for sending in your
question through the Kwave.com pastor's perspective page. And here's one
that was sent in, uh, online from the pastor's perspective Facebook.
Michael or Mike sent this in, uh, through.
(38:11):
Messenger. Can you all explain, Oh, so that explains where
my call is from, uh, possibly the South. Can you
all explain pre-trib and post-trib is one clearly laid out
in scripture and what is pre and post millennial? And
Dispositional versus covenant theology and allegorical viewpoints. I know this
(38:34):
is a lot, but I recently heard these topics on
another Christian podcast and would just like some clarification. Thank
you for your time, and I hope you consider my
question for on air. Yes, we did. We're doing it
right now. Uh, Bruce, what do you say to Michael?
Uh, first of all, Brian, I just appreciate you as
a host. Well, this is an easy softball type question,
(38:55):
so I'm, I'm glad you're pitching it my way. So, Michael, and, uh,
Matthew chapter 24, uh, just is overlooking from an eastern
perspective across the Kidron Valley, the Mount of Olives looking
at Jerusalem.
His disciples are so impressed with the temple and the
Temple Mount structure, and Jesus foretells that not one stone
(39:17):
is gonna be left upon another, and that you can
see the evidence literally how that was fulfilled today if
you visit Israel. But um
In telling his disciples that they asked him when that
was gonna happen and what would be the signs of
his return. And the following discourse, we know as the
(39:37):
all of that discourse. He just talked about signs that
would precede his second coming. He talked about the great
tribulation in that discourse.
And one of the doctrines that he doesn't address in
that discourse is the doctrine of the rapture. And so
Paul addresses that in 1 Thessalonians in uh chapter 4
(39:59):
verses 13 to 18, in 1 Corinthians chapter 15, and
so the
The question becomes, the rapture of the church is distinct
from the Second Coming. In the Second Coming, Jesus is
setting foot on the earth, and in the rapture, the
church is being taken up to meet Christ in the air.
(40:19):
And when we talk about the church, we
Talk about all believers from the time of Pentecost until
the time of the rapture as being the church age.
And so there are theological differences or differences of opinion
in regard to the timing of the rapture, in regard
to whether it's prior to the tribulation, in the middle
(40:41):
of the tribulation, because in the middle of the tribulation,
as described in Revelation, beginning chapter 6 through 19.
We see at a 3.5 year mark of a 7
year period. That's where God's judgment, uh, begins to get
poured out on steroids, so to speak. I, I don't
mean to make light of God's judgment. And so some
(41:02):
I believe the church will be raptured prior to the
middle tradition, or just at the middle, and then others
believe that the church will go through the tribulation, and
so that the rapture is happening at the end.
Uh, Coy chapels have traditionally been a pre-trib. Uh, we
believe that the best evidence supports the view, for example,
(41:25):
in Paul's letter to, uh, the church at Thessalike, that
same letter that he's talking about the rapture, he says
in the first chapter at uh verse.
10 that the church is not appointed to wrath, and
then he reaffirms that like a sandwich at the end
of the letter in 1 Thessalonians chapter 5, verse 9.
(41:47):
And so we believe that also we see in Revelation
4 and 5 prior to.
Uh, the great tribulation that, uh, the 24 elders, which
are seen as a representative or a picture of the church,
they're already in heaven worshiping God, worshiping, uh, Christ for
his redemption, um.
(42:08):
For his worthiness, and so they're pictured in heaven prior
to the great tribulation, and those are some of the reasons.
So let me just stop there, I guess, and, and
see if Brian, if you want to turn to uh
Richard on the pre-trip, post-trip before we talk about other issues. Yeah, Richard,
you know, the you did a great job there, Bruce,
thank you. Um, I, I would just draw as a
(42:30):
very concise resource, um, an author, Doctor John Waldward.
Um, W A L V 00 R D. um he's,
he's with the Lord now, but he was the former
president of Dallas Theological Seminary.
And um he wrote a little book called The Rapture Question.
(42:51):
And in that book, he lays out the various positions
um relative to the rapture.
Um, and especially, he also talks about pre and post millennialism, um,
explained gives a very brief and clear definition, and then
he states his views, um, in support of a pre-tribulation rapture.
(43:14):
Um, it's, it's such a handy book. It's written in
a way, it's not like a, a seminary, you know,
post grad level writing, but it's a guy who was
a professor and president of a post, you know, graduate
theological seminary distilling these things, uh, in a really great way.
So first of all, I really highly recommend that you
(43:34):
grab that book and I think his resources are still
available online. You can get it, you can just go
get a bunch of his stuff there.
Um, but, uh, I think maybe this would be a
a a place to kind of start to lean into
what does it mean to be pre-millennial or post millennial, um,
(43:55):
and I know for a lot of people there's just
some confusion about, about what that means, um, uh.
The assumption that the the term millennial comes from the
number 1000, right? A millennium is 1000 years and um
and it's a reference to um a literal reign on
(44:18):
the earth of Jesus, um, but this comes in and
in the, by the way, I said great when you
pointed out that that this the all of it discourse
is not about the rapture.
And I remember reading some of Walbert's stuff, and he says,
you cannot preach the rapture from the Olivet discourse. It's
not about that. It's about the things that will precede
(44:40):
his return to the earth. It's about his second coming.
And so around the issue of his second coming is, well,
is he going to come after 1000 years passes on
the earth or uh or an undeterminate long period of time?
Is that gonna be happening before his return, or is
(45:02):
his return gonna happen and then following that, he'll reign
for a literal 1000 years, and so there's, you know,
there's in amongst those views pre-millennial, post millennial, there's dispensational pre-millennialism,
there's historic pre-millennialism. There's not there's, it's not a very
flat line, it's not a flat subject to be talking about.
(45:23):
There's a lot of millennia there's a lot of views.
Um, but Christ will return after a long era, not
necessarily over 1 1000 years, um, and kind of, uh,
it's kind of almost like, um, the kingdom is gonna
unfold progressively until finally, you know, the reign of Jesus is,
is expressed so well on the earth that he returns.
(45:46):
And so Bruce, if you wanna throw in on any
of that, please feel free. It's, again, Rich, I think you.
Well versed in Bible knowledge and so appreciate. Yes, so Michael, uh,
you'll find uh the discourse regarding the millennial kingdom in
Revelation chapter 2, I believe, um, and I would just add, again,
(46:07):
not saying an official position of Calvary Chapel or the
Calvary Global Network, but
In my experience, most Calvary Chapels uh view the scripture
and our eschatology, our end times timeline with the view
that Christ's return is prior to the mime. And then
he's setting up a literal kingdom on this earth for
(46:28):
1000 years before establishing our eternal kingdom, uh, New Jerusalem, um,
what we would describe it as our heavenly eternal, uh, abode.
And that kind of brings us to the question of
um dispensational systematic theology versus covenant or reform, if we
(46:49):
can delve into that, right? Yeah, for sure, go for it.
Yeah, so, um,
In a dispensational systematic theology, um, we are looking at
a literal interpretation of scripture, especially Bible prophecy. So, for example,
where something is clearly a metaphor, when Jesus says to
(47:10):
the Jewish people wanted to take them under his wings,
he's not a giant chicken. When Jesus says, I am
the door, he's literally not a piece of hardware.
Um, it's a metaphor, and so we understand, uh, metaphor
as a literary device. But generally speaking, we're, we're interpreting
the Bible literally and certainly in regard to uh Bible prophecy.
(47:32):
And a dispensational framework will also distinguish between God's covenant
people Israel and
God's covenant people, the church, that there are promises that
are made uh to the church that are distinct, uh,
but promises made to Israel will also be fulfilled, that
the church is not replacing Israel, and that seems to
(47:54):
be well supported by Paul's writing in Romans chapter 9
through 11. People might, um,
Disagree about how many uh dispensations, and when we use
the term dispensation, we're talking about God dealing with humanity
in his redemptive plan in a progressive way. And, and so, um,
(48:16):
some would argue that there are 7 dispensations, the first
one being innocence before Adam and Eve and the fall,
then a dispensation of conscience, then human government, uh, after
the flood and
Um, Noah, talking about the, the right of capital punishment,
the responsibility.
Uh, then beginning in Genesis 12 with Abraham, the dispensation
(48:39):
of Thomas, the next dispensation involves law, and that's really
starting with uh Israel entering into the covenant Exodus chapter 20.
And then we have uh the covenant of grace, which
is really Acts chapter 2, verse 4, all the way
through Revelation 20:3, and then the millennial kingdom would be
(49:01):
the next dispensation leading into.
Uh, the eternal kingdom. So, um, those are some of
the distinctions.
So much wisdom and information you guys on today's episode
of Pastor's Perspective. This is great. By the way, really quick,
the book that Richard Cimino mentioned from John Walford is
called The Rapture Question. It is available on Amazon and
(49:25):
Walford again is spelled W A L V 00 R D.
Uh there's also a a website that's uh got his
um
His, uh, what do you call it, uh, it's, it's
his website. It's Walford.com. So if you go there you
can read a lot of the, um, yeah, really rich, rich.
(49:45):
Check that out.
Yeah, one other resource that I would recommend to my
or anyone else who really wants to get a very
thorough overview of eschatology is written by Arnold Fruchtenbaum. That's
F like Frank, R U C H E E N
B A U M, and the title is Footsteps of
(50:06):
the Messiah.
Uh, Futimam was a Jewish believer. I believe his, uh,
publishing is REL press, and it's just a very thorough,
I believe it was a PhD dissertation, but it seems
like every Bible prophecy in the Old Testament, he's outlined
um its place in end times prophecy. Fantastic, and I
(50:30):
agree with Richard's recommendation on John Walworth. He's wonderful.
So again, that recommendation from Bruce, the Footsteps of the Messiah,
a study of the sequence of prophetic events by Arnold Fruchtenbaum.
You can find that online. And, um, thank you also, Bruce,
for correcting me. The words should be dispensational. I think
(50:50):
I said dispositional, which, as it came out of my mouth,
I thought, that doesn't sound right, but I just kept
on going, and, uh, so thank you. I appreciate that.
I appreciate your grace. We're all about grace today here
on Pastor's Perspective.
Let's talk to Joan calling in from Aliso Viejo listening
on FM 107.9. Hi, Joan.
Oh, hi. Um, thank you. Um, you, um, the pastor
(51:15):
from Camarillo, who is a Jew, um, mentioned a book
that was given to him or he found, and then
he read that gave a lot of, uh, the prophecy
from the Old Testament.
And I, I want the name of that book, but
that I think it was a Bible.
(51:36):
Yeah, uh, Joan, I appreciate the question. It was actually
just uh the new open study Bible, and that is
published by Tom Thomas Nelson Publishers. They have the copyright
on the new King James version.
And that new open study Bible, I uh assume that
it continues to be in print, and it has many
(51:59):
indexes or uh references in the back of that Bible,
and one of them has prophecies in the Old Testament
concerning the Messiah and where Jesus fulfills them in the Gospels, um,
and so that was the resource, the Bible. Well, new
open study Bible.
Yes.
(52:20):
And, and please name the publisher again, I'm writing. It's,
it's Thomas Nelson Publishers, and they own the copyright on
the new King James version of the Bible. Oh, OK.
All right. I just want to tell you very quickly
that I was brought to the Lord by um a
completed Jew, a Messianic Jew who was 26 years old
(52:42):
and opened the Bible to me, and so.
It's just very special. Well, that's encouraging. Yeah, that's wonderfully encouraging. I,
I appreciate your question, Joan, and your interest. Did you
grow up Jewish as well, Joan?
Oh, no, no. OK.
So, but it's just wonderful to hear about Jews finding
(53:02):
their Messiah. Yes, indeed. Thank you for your phone call
today here on Pastor's Perspective. Let's do one more. This
one was sent in online. It's from Nadine in Hillsboro, Oregon,
who writes, I just lost my dog due to internal bleeding.
It was a sudden devastation.
Other than Jesus, he was the livelihood of our home.
My question is, do our pets go to heaven when
(53:24):
they die? Are there any scriptures to back it? If so, Bruce,
what do you tell Nadine?
Yeah, uh, first of all, Nadine, I'm so sorry for
your loss. Um, I have been a dog person most
of my life, and it's always very painful to lose
a pet. Um, I used to think that dogs went
to heaven and cats were eternally separated from God, um,
(53:48):
but now I have a cat and I found out
they're pretty cool. And, uh, in terms of scripture, we don't.
See any scripture that, uh, specifically says that our our
pets would be with us in heaven. Um, my wife's
business partner, who is like a daughter to me, um,
she has a great love for animals, and she makes
(54:09):
uh a pretty effective argument from the notion that heaven
is a place where we are eternally happy and content,
and that her presumption is that our pets would be
there with us, but
Uh, we don't see a biblical case, uh, verse that
makes that clear, and so it would be conjecture at
(54:30):
this point, but I, I hope you're comforted following this loss,
and I, I'm very sorry, and my, uh, friend Liz
would tell you you have nothing to worry about that
your uh pet is going to be there with you.
Richard is for me to, uh, quench that hope.
(54:51):
No, you don't want. No, cause I, I, I think, um.
Heaven's gonna be more than we think it's gonna be
and so I would not want to limit anything, you know,
the new heaven and a new earth and I can't imagine,
you know, that the new one's gonna be less, um,
is less than this one pets are a big part
(55:13):
of this one for sure.
Awesome. Bruce Zachary, thank you so much for joining us
today on Pastor's Perspective. We're gonna archive today's episode as
we archive all of them on Facebook, YouTube, Apple Podcasts,
and Spotify. You can find out more about Bruce's church
up there in Camarillo. Maybe you're gonna take a road
trip this summer. You're gonna go up north, you're gonna
(55:33):
be in Camarillo on a Sunday. Check.
Them out Calvarynexus.org is their website where you can get
service times, etc. Richard Cimino from Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa,
thank you for joining me in the studio, sir. So
glad to be here. So glad to have you on
on with us today, Bruce. It was great. Yes, we'll
have them on again next week. Lord willing, God bless
you guys. Thank you so much for listening to and
(55:54):
watching Pastor's Perspective.
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