August 4, 2025 • 56 mins
Pastors' Perspective is a one-hour call-in program where listeners can call in and get answers to questions about the Bible, Christianity, family, and life. The program is live Monday through Friday from 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM Pacific. You can call 888-564-6173 to ask your questions.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez.
It is Wednesday, the 30th of July, and we would
love to hear from you today if you've got a
question about the Bible, the Christian faith, just about anything
that's on your mind, we welcome your phone calls at 888-564-61.
73-888-564-6173. If you're watching online, thank you for. Did you
(00:38):
know you could watch online? Yes. In case you didn't
know you could watch us online. We're live streaming on
Facebook and YouTube and Instagram, so go there if you
want to see us. I don't know why you'd want
to see us, but, you know, you, you can. We
don't show any graphs or animation or anything like that.
It's just, you know, 3 people here in the studio
talking and
Answering questions, but it's fun, and uh we love that
(01:00):
you guys interact there in the chat amongst each other.
It's like this own little community. But we'd love to
hear from you if you've got a question at 888-564-6173.
Now, you can also send in your questions online. We've
got the Pastor's perspective Facebook page, or you can DM
us on, um, the pastor's perspective Instagram. You can go
to Kwave.com and click on the pastor's perspective page, fill
(01:23):
out the form, or you can scan the QR code
if you're watching online right now, and, uh, that will
take you to the pastor's perspective page where you can
submit your question. But again, the best way to get
an answer is to call us at 888-564-6173.
Let me introduce you to the, uh, one of the
guys who's gonna be answering your questions today. This is
(01:44):
Nick Kay. He's the pastor at Whitefields Community Church in Longmont, Colorado. Welcome, Nick,
to Pastor's Perspective.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Thanks, Brian. It's great to be here. Yeah,
Speaker 1 (01:56):
what brings you to Southern California?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Oh, several things. Uh, my wife is from Southern California.
We've got a lot of
here with uh with our Calvary Chapel church community and
I'm also speaking at a conference in Mexico in Baja,
this weekend. So there's a church planting conference and one
of the things I do with Calvary Global Network is
I lead our church planting initiative or church planter training initiative,
(02:21):
which is called Cultivate. So in relation to that, I'm
going to be speaking at this conference.
Down in Rosarito, there's a great church there, Calvary Rosarito,
that's hosting it and uh yeah, we'll be there for
a few days doing some other speaking and some family things. Nice.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Well, welcome to Pastor's perspective. uh, it's his first time
on the program, right? Right. All right, so you can
either go soft on him, go easy on him, just
ask the really simple questions, or we can grill him.
And uh, so where, what's your training? What's your, did
you go to Bible college?
What's your,
Speaker 2 (02:51):
uh, I moved to Hungary in 2002. I moved there
to work with the church with the intention that I
was gonna work with the church for about 8 months
and then I was gonna go to Bible College. The
Bible College, the Calvary Chapel Bible College Europe at that
time delayed its moving to Hungary, and that caused me
to just serve longer at that church.
(03:12):
And then when I was ready to go to Bible
College and the Bible College had moved, uh, basically the
leaders of the Bible College said, well, you know, we're
training people to do what you're doing, maybe just keep
doing it. So I did.
And then in 2005 I planted a church in northern
Hungary and as I was pastoring that church, I thought
to myself, you know, I really could use some more training.
(03:33):
I realized that that I was kind of just parroting
things that I had read, which I think is an
OK thing to do, but I really wanted to get
underneath it and learn. So, uh, through some relationships I
had at that time, I ended up going to school
in England, uh, remotely. So I went to the University
of Gloucestershire and I got my.
Bachelor of Arts in Christian theology and um at the time,
(03:57):
Gordon Windham was the the leader of that program at
uh Gloucester and just a great Old Testament scholar he
just recently passed away um and then um I enjoyed
that program so much that I went on and did
my master's also in England in uh London School of Theology.
And did that in integrative theology, which is basically like
(04:20):
the process by which people reach their theological conclusions. So
it has a lot to do with biblical interpretation and
hermeneutics and um fascinating stuff that I'm very passionate about,
but um,
Speaker 1 (04:33):
yeah,
that is great. So if you've got a question for Nick,
give us a call at 888-564-6173.
Ed Stetzer, ah, I just said his name, and he
walked in the door. Here he comes. Don't say what
3 times.
Your name. OK, I'll only say it twice. Uh, Ed
Stetzer is the dean of the Talbot School of Theology
(04:55):
at Biola University, and it's been a while since this guy,
whose name I can't say more than twice, have been
traveling too much. Yes, you have. You have been all
over the place. So Ed, this is Nick Kay. Hey Nick,
good to see you today. He's the pastor of Whitefields
Community Church in Longmont, Colorado. Googled him, and he's a
Calvary Chapel, uh, pastor. I saw that and he's got
(05:17):
a
Masters in philosophical theology or integrative theology. So that's super.
So and, and so I, I wanted to know who
is on the program with. Yes, yes, it was good,
good to meet you. So since Nick doesn't know who
you are, now tell us who you are. So I'm
a motivational speaker who lives in a van down by
the river. Um, my name's Ed Stetzer. I'm the dean
of the Talbot School of Theology at Biola University.
(05:38):
Uh, teaching pastor at Mariner's Church, preached my heart out
this weekend, so I'm a little tired. I'm still recovering
from preaching 3 days ago. You're still recovering 6 times
6 times. Then I got a job. I gotta go
to work and I got to do other stuff. So
I'm a little tired. I hear you. Don't judge me.
I'm not. I'm sorry. All right, 888-564-6173. It has been
(05:59):
a long time. Do you know how, you know, I'm
exhausted from having to give out the phone number so,
so I am so glad that you're here because you
can give the phone number. It is 888.
564-617-3 friends that call now with your questions to pastor's perspective, again,
it's 888-564-6173. It looks like Nick is getting ready to
(06:21):
walk out the door. He's like, What have I gotten
myself spin some records. Can we like do that? Were
you playing at the hits.
That'd be fun at WBCR. Yes, BCR, is that a
Chicago song? That's from you just made that up. Res
Resband had this thing and they have this little little
track and says how did this get in the stacks?
It says playing the hits all day all night in WBCR.
(06:41):
How'd this get in the stacks? Who's this resurrection band?
And if you remember Res band or Resurrection Band, I
think you should call and tell me your favorite story.
That band or band, yes, I remember that. Oh, see,
people are calling. People are calling about the red. Maybe
the res band is. I remember them, but I couldn't
tell you any of their songs. Really. I see wave
after wave of people in that'd be a perfect song
(07:03):
for Kwave. It would be. Do we, do we like have.
Music on K Whip. I only listen to talk. Yes,
we do not currently have music, but, uh, but you
want to spin some now? I would love to. Let's
do it. Let's bring in the turntable and just like
the old put it on. People are calling. I'm ready.
All right. All right, so let's start off with a
question that was sent in online, uh, but like I said,
(07:25):
the best way to, uh, get your question answered is
to call us. Haley wrote in.
And she says, my question is why did Jesus's half
brother James not believe that Jesus was the Messiah before
he was resurrected? I've been told it's because he thought
Jesus was losing his mind or maybe mentally ill. If
he did believe that, that he was mentally ill, why
(07:45):
couldn't he take his mother Mary's word for it that
Jesus was the Son of God? Or did Mary also
agree with James? And if so, why? Nick, what do
you say to Hayley?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Well, I think it one part of it at least
there might, there might be more layers to it, but
I'd say at least one part of it is that
it's just, it's a very fantastical thing, you know, to
believe that your half brother is the son of God.
I mean, I think that that seems a lot, yeah,
that's a lot, right? Uh, I mean, even John the
Baptist who was kind of privy to it and even
preached on it, um, multiple times, he even had his
(08:17):
doubts at times. I mean, it just, it seems like
a lot and
Uh, one of the things that always strikes me about
that whole thing with Gius's half siblings is just the
fact that they would have grown up with this brother who,
when they looked back on things, they would realize, you
know what, yeah, I guess he never sinned, you know,
there were, maybe there were disagreements. He was perfect, yeah, um,
(08:40):
and so there was some point where they said, well,
they looked back and they thought, OK, yeah, it's fantastical, it's,
it seems hard to wrap your head around, but
But they couldn't argue with it and they saw him resurrected.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, and I think that was a turning point is,
you know, of course post resurrection, uh, was it Gina? Uh,
Gina was Hailey, wow, there's not even a single letter
in common between the, um, there's name maybe, um, so, but,
but I do think, I mean, the, the, the Bible
actually tells us that they talked about was he out
of his mind. So, so there is that, um, there's also,
(09:16):
you know, I mean, maybe in some ways, you know,
familiarity breeds contempt. I mean,
You know, you kind of see up close, uh, maybe
you don't want to see what you see, you know,
I mean, this is, you gotta think about my brother
growing up with me, like walking with perfection and my childhood.
I'm sorry, sorry, my brother, my brother is a judge now.
He'll throw me in jail for that lie. Um, but I,
(09:38):
but I do think, I mean, the Bible doesn't give
us a lot of details here, but I do think
that um familiarity, uh, breeds contempt, we often say, and
I think that they thought Jesus was
Not all in his right mind, um, until later and
then that, I mean that's literally like that's not me
making it up. Don't be offended by that. That's literally the,
the words in the text.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
So and I mean, I, to me it's almost even
more impressive or incredible, the fact that once they did
see him resurrected that they actually worshiped him. I mean,
here you have these men who for the rest of
their lives worship this one with whom they grew up.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Yeah, because about you see things like, you know, prophets
without honor in his hometown. Imagine his family, you know,
so for sure, for sure. Good. Hayley, thank you for
sending in your question on, uh, the pastor's perspective Facebook page,
and here's one that we got from Instagram. It's from Amy.
I have a coworker who is Muslim, and he told
me they don't believe in the crucifixion of Jesus or
(10:35):
his resurrection.
And he told me his Bible is the one true
Bible and that all the others are fake. I didn't
say anything because I didn't want to start an argument.
I walked away, left it at that, but now I
want to know why he thinks the Koran is the
true Bible, and I was hoping to get some facts
to prove the Holy Bible is the real thing. Ed,
what do you say to Amy?
(10:57):
Yeah.
I don't know. In other words, I don't know how you,
I mean what I say to Amy is what we
believe as Christians, but I just don't know enough about
the situation, like, so, you know, so this is a
a Muslim friend who's claiming
You know, I mean, for me, I I was most recently,
I was over in Oxford and I got in with
(11:18):
a cab driver who's, uh, second time I was had
the same cab driver, he said, you talked to me
last time.
And I said to him, you know, the
You know, the, the Quran talks about Jesus and, and,
and of course he calls him Esau and the and
the Quran talks calls him Esau.
And it's kind of interesting cause when you see Jesus
in the Quran, Andy Bannister, who's written a book on Islam,
(11:43):
he's a scholar of Islam, he said that when you
see Jesus in the Quran, it's sort of like Gandalf
showing up in pride and prejudice. You're kind of like,
wait a sec, this character doesn't fit in here. It's like,
why is this character in here? And so what I
try to do when I'm witnessing and trying to show
the faith with a with a Muslim.
is to say, there's enough in the Quran about Esau,
(12:08):
including that you should listen to him, you should, you
should learn more of him and about him.
So, the best place to do that, there are actually
4 biographies of Jesus, that's why I call him the start.
There are 4 biographies of Jesus, and, and I just
want to encourage you to consider reading one of the
4 short biographies of Jesus. At this point they're like, well, what,
what biographies? Well, they actually called the Gospels, and there's
(12:30):
4 of them, and they, they are actually in the
Christian Bible, but they are very clearly biographies of Jesus,
and you can see in the Quran, some of that,
what those recorded in those biographies actually being referenced in
the Quran.
So I said, would you consider reading the Gospel of
John with me? And then let's talk about it. Let's
talk about who Jesus is in the Bible, uh, you know,
(12:53):
most people, most Muslims don't, they know Esau's in the Quran,
but they don't know much more, because really,
It's a strange fit, like I said, it's Gandalf and
Pride and Prejudice. So that's the approach I would take.
I wouldn't try to, I, I was, we were just
having a conversation about our projects program at at Viola.
And, you know, we have the largest apologetics master group
program in the world. And a lot of people study
(13:15):
apologetics because they want to win arguments. And, and I
think that's maybe the way we thought of it 34
years ago. Uh, today, we're just talking about even how
we want to communicate our program. I said we want
to build bridges. So I don't know you'll win the
argument about
The Bible that they prefer or don't prefer. But I
think you build a bridge with a Muslim and then
(13:36):
and and by saying let's talk about who Isa is
and let's read his biography and talk about it afterwards.
Is that, is that sort of, yeah, I think so, Nick.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Yeah, I, I agree with that and then, you know,
I was just gonna share some experience that I had.
I lived in Hungary and during the time that I
lived there, I lived there very, you know, close around 9/11.
So after 9/11 happened, we got a lot of refugees
coming from Afghanistan and from other places, you know, over
those next few years. And so we worked in a
(14:04):
UNHCR refugee camp. We got a lot of help from
the uh Bible Society, the International Bible Society, sending us
Bibles in different languages.
And one of the things that we learned working with
Muslim people was that um the New Testament, which they
call the Injil is uh one of the books that
they consider to be a holy book. And so they're
very inclined to read it and many people from, you know,
(14:26):
certain backgrounds, they haven't had a chance or they've been
discouraged from reading it. So I, I would agree with
that in that sense, just hand them a Bible and
and have them read it. The, the other part that
um we would often debate with them or discuss with them.
Was that their their big argument, and we know they
talk about the difference between their Bibles is as it's
put in this question here, is that they, they believe
(14:49):
that the New Testament as we have it, has been
corrupted as well as the Old Testament, and that there's
this kind of like the preserved and correct version.
And, uh, essentially what the Quran is when it talks
about some Old Testament stories and some New Testament stories
is kind of like a redacted version of the Bible.
So there are some stories about Abraham that have been
(15:10):
changed from what the way they are in the Bible
that we would read the Holy Bible. And the same
is true in the New Testament. And so,
The real benefit that we have is that we can
actually go back and look at manuscript evidence if someone's
willing to do that, right? So if this friend of
hers is willing to look into manuscript evidence and those
sorts of things, um, that's all very much available, um,
(15:33):
both for the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
And Ed, is this the book that you were talking
about from Andy Bannister? Do Muslims and Christians worship the
same God? It is indeed. All right. And Andy's great. Actually,
we're about to launch our, I don't know if I
should say this publicly, but what we are about to
launch our certificate in Muslim.
It's a Muslim apolog politics, but it's not like it's
not called that because it sounds like Muslims doing the
(15:57):
uh engaging Muslims with apologetics.
And, uh, and Andy's one of the participants. We have
this amazing array of people and we go through all
of these things and it's gonna be a certificate program
available at the Talbot School of Theology but wow, you
heard it here first, folks and maybe you weren't supposed
to be sure I was supposed to say that. So,
so forgive me. I did get a comment from, uh,
(16:18):
from a guy on uh Resband like he's listening right now,
one of one of ours. Well, he just said Resband, so,
so he's listening and so he's a, he did say
he did say recently he misses me. It's, it's, it's
resurrected vinyl. I'm not sure.
Who that is. Well, shout out to, uh, resurrected vinyl,
but he's, he just told me he misses me on Pastortive,
so I feel good being back. You were missed. I
(16:39):
don't know if I was really missed. We have, we
have great people from Talbot every week, don't we? Aren't
we like consistently Talbotting almost every week, yeah, every now
and then something almost the biola hour. Yes, you have
to be a certain age to get that reference. It
used to be a radio program for those who don't know,
called the Biola Hour every week.
And it goes it a full hour long? I would have,
I think it was at one point, then it got
shortened to 30 minutes, but they didn't change it, right? Yeah,
(17:00):
because I remember that was is Jay Vernon McGee like
still playing somewhere in LA? He's on K-wave. He's on K-wave. OK.
Do you know that I'm his successor at the Church
of the Open Door? No, no, no. Jay Vernon McGee
was the head of the English Bible department.
At the Bible Institute of Los Angeles, which is Biola,
which is Biola, and now the Talbot School of Theology.
(17:20):
So it's like the names have changed, but I have
the job that he used to have when it was
a small Bible college, and so that's kind of fun.
So Jay Vernon McGee and now the Biola Hour today. Sorry,
I'm sorry, Nick, we just
This is why they don't have me in because I
just ramble incessant. It's all good. Jared and Redlands, thank
you for calling in to Pastor's Perspective today. 888-564-6173 is
(17:45):
the number that Jared called. Jared, you are on with
Ed Stetzer and Nick Katie.
Yeah, hi, uh, my question is, uh, regarding the hypostatic union. Um, Jesus, uh,
you know, he was fully God, fully man. He had
(18:05):
both natures as I understand it.
Um, when he ascended to heaven.
Did he, did he give up his human nature at
all and it only divine nature?
And then along with that, did he have.
He has some sort of glorified body, but is it?
(18:29):
Still a human.
Uh, nature, I'm just trying to understand how that works with.
The incarnation and the hypostatic union. Thanks. All right, Ed.
Can I just say that only on pastor's perspective, do
you get a call asking questions about the hypostatic union. OK. Jared, uh,
(18:52):
super question. So, of course, um, the, the, let's, we
got to define some things because normal people don't know
what the hypostatic union is. So hypothetic union is the, uh,
the Christian belief, the Orthodox Christian belief that Jesus is
um one person with two distinct natures, right? So the
(19:12):
Fully divine and fully human, which Jared already said, um,
and specifically in the Council of Chalcedon would say things like,
you know, united without confusion, change, division, separation. Um, so,
and this is what Orthodox Christians, not, not big old
Orthodox like Eastern Orthodox, but Christians who believe he hold
Orthodox beliefs. So, the answer to your specific question is,
(19:35):
is that we do believe that Jesus retains his human
nature permanently, not just temporarily.
And so his resurrected body is a glorified human body,
for example, it, uh, you know, in John chapter 20,
he appears behind closed doors, and he shows them his
hands on his side. So simultaneously, he has the marks
(19:56):
of the crucifixion and is appearing behind closed doors in
miraculous ways. So, he did, um, he ascended bodily, that's
an important thing. So, so that human body is still
there and
He reigns at the right hand of the father, um,
(20:17):
in bodily form. So, he does indeed retain his human nature.
He actually will return in the same physical body in
which he ascended. So he does retain that. Now again,
body is not nature fully, but deeply connected between the two. Now,
it's important for a lot of reasons, right? So he's
the mediator, right? His ongoing role as high priest and mediator.
(20:41):
Uh, is, is really essential for that, and his eternal
identification with humanity. He permanently identifies with humanity, not just
during his 33 years on Earth, but, but forever. So
big answer to the question, yes, Jesus still has a
human nature and a human body, even after his resurrection
and ascension. Nick Kay.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Yeah, and just jumping on that, um, I pronounce it chalcedon.
Was I wrong?
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah, you could do either way. It's kind of like
August Augustine.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
OK, I'm gonna pronounce a big part of cedon was
trying to understand like this hypothetic union, why is it
important for our salvation and a big, uh, verse for
this in the Bible was in Hebrews chapter 2, verse 14,
which says that since the children share in flesh and blood,
he himself likewise partook of the same things.
(21:29):
And so that was a big part of the debate was,
you know, was Jesus fully human and how did that work?
And does he retain that? And so the idea is, yeah,
after the incarnation, then he's eternally, uh, has a, you know,
he's one person with two natures, without confusion, without change,
without division, without separation. And um,
Speaker 1 (21:50):
yeah,
cool. And that's the, that's not what everyone believes he
uses the word Christian to describe themselves. You go to
the churches of the east, there's some
Uh, but that would be what evangelicals believe, what our
Catholic friends believe, what our Orthodox friends believe. It's, it's
pretty much, uh, they're united on the 7, what we
(22:10):
call the seven ecumenical councils. So great, great question, Jerry.
Just a light, just a light question for an afternoon drive.
Jerry down the roads. I got some questions about this
as well. Does that help you, Jared?
Yeah, thank you so much. Awesome, man. Thank you for
calling in today to come do a master's in theology
with us. You have a master's in integrated theology
Speaker 2 (22:31):
from London School of Theology. Oh,
Speaker 1 (22:33):
London School
of Theology. OK, super, super, super. Well that makes sense.
That makes sense. What is, what are you integrating?
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Oh, it's actually about theological methods, so I'm not sure
why it's necessarily called that. I mean, that's a field
of study in theology. It's integrated theology, but maybe a
layman's term would just be theological method. So we're looking
at how you use the source of theology in relation
to each other and how different people use that to
come to their theological
beliefs.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
LST, the outside of Anglicanism, the largest seminary in Europe.
I think uh the, the Church of England out of
HDB what's what's Saint Meliss is larger now, but the
London School of Theology, great, good, good school, good school,
not that you need my mark of approval.
Well, you're the bio guy, so that's true. Well, he
can come do a doctorate with us.
(23:16):
I hear the savior calling. Ed's just trying to get
everybody signed up today. ABC, man, always be closing. How
do you think we are growing so much? That's right.
I just get to tell people about the awesomeness of
the Talbot School of Theology. Yeah, anyway, yeah, could be
because of this radio program. It is this radio program
has made it possible. So the Biola Hour. Can we
call it Biola Kate Wave University? Probably not, probably not.
(23:41):
I think you legal names of universities exist. OK, fine.
Uh, 888-564-6173. We've got Ed Stetzer, the dean of the
Talbot School of Theology at Byola University here, and our
guest today, for the very first time, Pastor Nick Kay.
He is from White Fields. Hold on, let me get
this right. Don't want to mess it up. White Fields
(24:01):
Community Church, uh, John 4:35. Lift up your eyes, see
that the fields are white for harvest. So great name
for a church. And it's on Colorful Avenue. That is
a great name for a street.
Fields Colorful Avenue. Yes, yes. Now what's that near? It's
like in Colorado, right? So we're
Speaker 2 (24:17):
in the city of Longmont, which is a sister city
to Boulder. So Longmont and Boulder are kind of twin city.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Yep, I've been there many a time. I work with
glue out there and stuff like that. So, OK, very cool,
very cool. AAA, add phone number. The phone number is 888-564-6173. Again,
call us up. you know, you don't have to have
a hypostatic union question.
Uh, 888, just don't ask tattoo questions. I, I don't like,
(24:44):
I noticed you get a lot of tattoo questions. We do.
I do. I know. And what do I have right
now on my hands? tattoos. Who tattoos. So anyway, any
tattoos before we leave today, let's commit.
To go down to get a tattoo. You know my
tattoo tattoo that says Viola University. So you know my
tattoo story about Brian Broderson, right? So me tell you this,
but first, let me remind people they can call, but
(25:06):
not about tattoos, 888-564-6173. So you know, he was doing
his master's degree with us and so we were in,
we were studying the Old Testament in Israel and there
were 15 of them in the class.
And one of them is a pastor named Matt Chandler.
One of them says, we're at Razooks, which is the
oldest tattoo parlor in the world. Continues stopping tattoo parlor
(25:28):
in the world. They used to do tattoos for the Crusaders, uh,
and so I don't know how old it is, like
800 years old or something, I think it was 800,
and they're not using the same needles for, it's modern
modern methods now, but it's really cool looking. So, uh,
Chandler starts pushing the other students in the class to
go get a tattoo, right?
Peer pressure. So by the time we're done, 2/3 of
(25:51):
the people get a tattoo. So I think it's I
think it's 9 out of the 15 students, but Brian
Broderson stood like a rock against the peer pressure. So again,
if you have questions about tattoos, wait till Pastor Brian's on,
because he's clearly against them.
Our number is 888-564-6173.
Yes,
Speaker 2 (26:11):
I'm certainly not against tattoos, but I feel like I'm
the only person my age that I know who doesn't
have any tattoos. Now I feel like I am actually
now the counterculture. You
Speaker 1 (26:20):
are rebelling,
yeah, I'm right there.
58 years of age and I got tattoos like a
couple of years ago. Yeah, they're just really to the family.
One's a wedding ring, you know, so and the other
one has to do with our family was a little
turtle that our family's been the herd of turtles forever,
but like I didn't realize I got I one a
few it was right, uh, during COVID.
(26:40):
Which what was great was I was, they're on my hands. So,
I didn't realize that, you know, everything was on Zoom
for a while and like, all it ended up to
is people asking, what's on your hand? What's on your hand?
What's on your hand? And then I regretted it afterwards,
but I like my wife and I got a wedding ring,
and I like my kids, anyway.
Very cool. All right. 888-564-6173. Don't forget you can also
(27:01):
hear Ed Stetzer here on Kwave Saturday mornings at 9 o'clock.
That's always a great program. We give him the whole hour.
He has a different phone number. I don't know how
he does that, or he doesn't confuse the two phone numbers, but, uh,
I looked up there and I read 888-564-6173. We've got
it right there, eye level. Rosie and Hemetz, welcome to
Pastor's Perspective. How are you doing today?
(27:24):
Good, thank you. Great. What's your question for us?
Can you broaden the answer to this question so it
doesn't sound like a um contradiction. So we are saved
by grace, so there's um on Calvary we've already been
saved through Jesus Christ on, on, on Calvary. So then
(27:45):
why are we required to have fruit?
To be heaven bound. All right, Nick, what do you say?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Yeah, I just taught on uh some passages that relate
to this. Just the last few weeks I've been teaching
through Matthew's Gospel and just uh taught through Matthew 25,
and there are a few parables that Jesus tells and
a few stories that he tells as well that have
to do with this.
But what I would tell you is this, it really
comes down to not having to or being required to
(28:15):
produce fruit, but that fruit is something which will show
that you have been saved. And so, for example, Jesus says,
Um, to people in Matthew chapter 7 who come to
him and they say, hey, we did all these things
in your name, and he says, the problem is you
never knew me, and that was shown by the fact
that you did evil deeds rather than the will of
(28:36):
the Father. And so we see this as a consistent
theme throughout the New Testament that um
That those who are saved will necessarily, I mean, like,
without even trying, though we should also try, but without
even trying, we will produce fruit. That's actually the nature
of fruit if you think about trees, is that a
tree doesn't grunt it out and force it out. It
happens naturally because of the health of the tree and
(28:59):
what the tree is intrinsically. So I hope that, hope
Speaker 1 (29:03):
that's I think it's just 30 seconds. I have more
to say. So let's let's come back on the other side.
Because I think it's a good opportunity to talk about
like lordship salvation and have a little discussion about what
that means, you know, uh, John MacArthur, uh, just recently
went on to be with the Lord, big proponent of
lordship salvation that that there would be a requirement that
(29:24):
there would be subsequent fruit that would be evidence of
the salvation by grace alone, through faith alone.
And I think it'd be good to kind of tease
that out a little bit. So let's, we'll continue this conversation.
Our phone number is 888-564-6173. That's it. Rosie, can you
hang with us through the break?
Yes, thank you. Awesome. 888-564-6173 for the rest of you
(29:46):
to call in and talk to us as well. We'll
talk to Ben when we come back too, and we're
waiting to talk to you. 888-564-6173. If you're watching on Facebook,
YouTube or Instagram, grab an open line 888-564-6173.
(30:17):
We're back on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number to
call us today. We're going to be in the studio
for about another 25 minutes, and we'd love to hear
from you. 888-564-6173. Our special guest is Nick Kay. He's
the pastor of White Fields Community Church in
Longmont, Colorado. He is in town. So he said, Hey,
(30:40):
come on in. So he's answering your questions today. So
is the dean of the Talbot School of Theology at
Biola University, Ed Trekki, I mean Ed Stetzer. It's a treker,
a trekker. He is diminutive. Trekker is what we prefer
to be called. So you're a big Star Trek guy.
I mean, I did attend the Star Trek experience when
(31:01):
I was in Las Vegas, so, but I would say yes.
You have a Star Trek tattoo somewhere? I do not.
I do not, but I, I do enjoy a little, uh,
science fiction from now and then. Not a Star Wars guy,
not a Star Wars at all. Yeah, so my wife
recently said to me, so what's the difference? Are they
pretty much the same thing? So at that point there
was trouble in the house. You thought of removing the tattoo.
(31:25):
The tattoo is irremovable. Um, but yeah, a little bit
of Star Trek guy. So, so, all right, so we're
gonna go back to, uh, to Rosie's question. So, I
think it's probably helpful because Rosie's question does sort of
point to a debated issue in evangelicalism, particularly on the
reform side of evangelicalism. And so there's the idea of
lordship salvation. So lordship salvation, which probably John MacArthur would
(31:49):
be the best known proponent of this.
Teaches that we are saved by faith alone.
But it's connected to or accompanied by, must be accompanied
by submission to the lordship of Christ, which then leads
to the fruit. So that that's kind of the picture
uh that that's there. So this is um
(32:09):
You know, the, the, the idea is you might use
the word conjoined, this connected with you, you, you submit
to Jesus and you experience saving faith, where people with
free grace theology would say, well, like, like Arscar Clock
and R.
If I can learn to speak and say people's names. R.
Scott Clark. So, OK, well, there you go. I hear something. Um,
(32:34):
she was excited about my answer, I think so or
in another conversation, and the only the people left behind
who didn't ask the question are listening. So like just
down the road in Westminster Seminary, R. Scott Scott Clark
would say, no, no, I mean, what we believe about
justification is you're you're justified, you're declared justified, and there's
not and you have to do so and so.
(32:55):
I kind of come down probably.
In the middle, that there's a that salvation is by
grace through faith, that justification makes it just as if
I'd never sinned.
And that would naturally and normally lead to a life
bearing much fruit. And when it doesn't, something has gone wrong.
(33:19):
Either there's not a genuine faith in Christ, and this
is kind of a Baptist view, to be honest. So, uh,
Baptists always sort of like Calvary Chapel, they take the
middle road on things.
But I'd be interested to see, I mean, how would you, Nick,
how would you add to that or have you wrestled
through you just preached on
this,
Speaker 2 (33:34):
yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I, I would take that view.
I in a way it is a it is a
bit of splitting hairs, right, because
Speaker 1 (33:40):
it's a I don't think
John MacArthur or Clark Clark would
Speaker 2 (33:43):
say
Speaker 1 (33:44):
which
Speaker 2 (33:44):
I guess shows that I am what you say, which
is kind of
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Chapel Baptist
we often take the
middle path,
Speaker 2 (33:50):
yeah, and just basically what is.
What does it mean to believe in Jesus, that Greek
word pisteo, does it just mean to, uh, intellectually ascend
to that? Is it like in the reform view, is
it something which is imposed on you or is it predestination,
Speaker 1 (34:08):
but let's come back to the what you believe. If
you believe in your heart, right? I mean, that's what
it says, if you believe in your heart.
You know, raise him from the dead, you shall be saved.
It doesn't say in that passage, if you obey him, you'll,
you shall be saved.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
OK, so yeah, to go a little further on this,
I guess, I guess in this case, I would lean
a little bit more towards the definition of what saving
faith means a little bit towards MacArthur's side.
And here's why. Because one of the questions I got
just after preaching on Matthew 25, um, you know, we
preach the sermon to our staff on Fridays and elicit
(34:44):
feedback to to like prepare for the sermon. One of
the our interns actually asked a really good question. He said, well,
if it says in Romans 10, that if you call
upon the name of the Lord, you'll be saved, well,
then why is it that in Matthew 7, Jesus talks
to people who say to him, Lord, Lord, like they're
literally saying the word Lord and calling him Lord.
And then Jesus says that they never knew him and
(35:05):
they won't be saved.
And so it would seem that just saying the word
or even calling him Lord, or even believing that he
is something is not enough, that that saving faith is
a faith that is willing to submit and surrender to
him as Lord.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
So, your question, Rosie, is, is a, it's actually a
big theological question and the the alternative would be if
we didn't I'm kind of where you similar where you are.
If we didn't hold that, and we held to just
this overwhelming sense of, uh, well, free grace theology is
what it's often called, um, you end up being accused
(35:45):
of antonomianism, which means you don't believe that there are
laws and you shouldn't live, your life shouldn't change. And
so what challenges me is this quote from Martin Lloyd Jones.
It says, if you're preaching of the gospel of God's
free grace in Jesus Christ does not provoke the charge
of from some of antonomianism,
You're not preaching the gospel of free, grace of God
(36:06):
and Jesus Christ. So, there is a sense that you
want to be very clear, well, the where the Bible's clear,
by grace you're say, through faith, it's not of yourselves,
lest anyone should boast. But the first act of obedience
is baptism, and subsequent acts of obedience are fruit that
flow from that as well. But I would say that
(36:27):
what we all agree on.
Is that salvation is by grace and through faith, and
that normally fruit should flow from that normatively and practiced.
What do you think, Rosie, of the answers we just
gave you? I agree.
All right, I agree. Very good. Thank you. Thank you, Rosie.
I'm sorry. I go, this is the professor in me.
I just go on long, some might say rants, some
(36:50):
might say lectures, some might say helpful information. You decide.
It's all good. Thank you, Rosie, for calling in today
to Pastor's perspective. 888-564-6173 is our number. Let's answer a
question that was sent in online on the Kwave.com pastor's
perspective page. It is from Flor, who lives in Downey.
And she writes, Hello, pastors. I have a question about
(37:11):
forgiveness and submission. My husband hates my side of the
family because of altercations that happened in the beginning of
our marriage. He's always talking about them negatively, and I
will listen, but I can't any more.
We have given them space, and I thought things would
heal and get better with time. He only approves that
(37:33):
we spend every single holiday with his side, including birthdays.
I still talk to my family, but they're not welcome
in our home. My husband says he's a Christian, but
I thought we were supposed to forgive and reconcile. I
want my family close, but he doesn't want us associating
with them. What am I supposed to do? Is this
where I submit? Nick, what do you say to Flora?
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yeah, it's a, it's a difficult question in one sense because, um,
you know, if you would ask your question for, if
you'd ask your husband rather, has he forgiven.
You know, your family members, he might say yes, you know,
and so I mean, we clearly have a command from
Jesus to forgive those who have sinned against us, and
(38:17):
along with it comes a warning that if we refuse
to forgive those who sinned against us, then uh our
Father in heaven will not forgive us. And so,
Um, the difficulty then comes with this, it's one thing
to forgive someone and then to pursue reconciliation and to
rebuild trust is something else. But personally, I would say
like the unwillingness to seek restoration of a relationship, the
(38:42):
unwillingness to seek reconciliation over time, I think that that
is um
That's something that's concerning. That's something I would be concerned about. Um,
so yeah, I'm curious what you think, Ed.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Oh, you are, um.
Yeah, here's the thing, like, this is the challenge with this.
Is that we don't know the whole story, right? We
don't know what the altercations were at. We don't know
what the altercations were like we don't know if really
terrible things were done that would require an appropriate creation
(39:16):
of boundaries because there are things that families could have done.
And that, that, that uh the husband would rightfully say,
we need to not, we need to not allow this
back into our family and our homes, or, or my
wife could say that similarly, right? There are boundaries that
could be. So we don't know. I mean, it's very
(39:36):
strong language in this, in this comment. My husband hates
my side of the family because of altercations that happen.
In the beginning of our marriage. Now, hate is, is
not it, but, but is that how he would describe it,
or is he trying to protect the family from something?
And I, and I, I don't know. Here's some key
things that I see in here, um, is that it
sounds like you are at a substantive impasse with your husband.
(39:59):
He said he says he's a Christian, but I thought
we were supposed to forgive and reconcile. I would say,
forgiving and reconciling are not always the same thing. I
have forgiven people that I recognized for the sake of, uh,
my my family or whatever, that there's not reconciliation that's helpful,
sometimes not thoughtful, but sometimes it's not the right thing. I,
(40:20):
you can forgive somebody and not reconcile, get back into
relationship with them, but um,
You know, I, I would say that that it sounds
like you need to get some outside help and some
outside conversation. Probably not a, you know, comment on a,
on a, uh, you know, this is fine, we want
the comments. But I think this is something you need
(40:41):
to navigate and get some arbitration to kind of talk
through this with somebody else, uh, the strength of the
language he hates, um,
You know, aren't we supposed to forgive and reconcile? Uh,
he doesn't want to associate that. What am I supposed
to do? Is this where I submit? Uh, and, and
I don't know that because we don't even know, for example,
can you go see your family? I mean, I don't
(41:02):
see you indicating she says she does, um, yeah, so
the place that you're, yeah, but is she like doing
it in secret or something, or is he OK with
her the place where you're submitting, I don't know that
it's a submission question if you're still in a relationship
with your family. It's a question of what you do
together and sounds like he's choosing not to, but
Again, this is where it's just tricky. I just, there's
(41:23):
a lot here that we don't know fully how to
unpack and understand, but I would say it sounds like
an unhealthy situation and you need to get some counsel
and can walk through it with somebody, somebody else at
this point if you're at that, if you're at this
place of where you can't come to an agreement. All right, Flo,
thank you for sending in your question through the Kwave.com
pastor's perspective page. Here's a question that was sent in
(41:43):
on Instagram from Danny. What would a leadership pipeline look
like for you?
First of all, what is a leadership pipeline?
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Uh, leadership pipeline, um, and I know you've written
Speaker 1 (41:54):
it's a pipeline of leaders. That's what I wanna say,
but you tell us
more,
Speaker 2 (41:58):
you know, I'll, I'll just say how I've, we've used
it in our church and is that it's basically the
pathway through which we regularly, uh, elevate someone into leadership or,
or it's a pathway steps people can take if they
desire to be in leadership, which as we read in
the New Testament is a good and noble thing for
someone to desire to be an elder or to be
a leader.
(42:19):
And so, um, what does that process look like? How
does somebody get into that process? How do they know
what the next step is in that process? A lot
of times I find that leaders do this intuitively, like they,
they have something in mind, but they maybe haven't articulated it,
or maybe they haven't put it on paper or thought
it through even in their own mind, but there there's
a way in which, how does somebody who's new to
(42:42):
the Lord,
Then get involved into leadership, and then how do they,
if you will, ascend or come through a leadership pipeline
to a place where they could be a leader if
that's what God has called them to do in any capacity.
Doesn't necessarily mean, you know, certain roles or positions in
a given church, but how do they do that? And
so leadership pipeline would just have different stages and it
(43:03):
would have might have processes through which a person gets
elevated into leadership, so.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
Yeah, I don't like, I, I don't know that he
asked for you, so I'm at Mariner's Church, and I
don't know that telling how we do it at a
church of our monstrosity size is gonna help the typical
person like we have processes and classes and staff members,
you know, so, so what I would say is a
(43:29):
normal healthy church, which the typical church in the United
States is actually the median church in the United States
is about 70 now.
Uh, most people go to a church, if you look
at the midpoint in the low 200s, it's going to be,
how are we helping.
Uh, believers step into their spiritual gifts, uh, find ways
to grow in the use of their spiritual gifts, and,
(43:50):
and try out areas of leadership.
And uh I would actually recommend the book my pastor wrote.
Eric Guyer wrote Designed to lead. It's got a whole
chapter called Leadership pipeline, and the whole thing really is
about leadership pipeline, and it talks about how from, you know,
discipleship and leadership are so well connected together. I would
check out a Designed to Lead by, uh, it's Garrett
Guyger and Kevin Beck, Peck, Kevin Peck, and I think they,
(44:13):
they do a good job. And again, I think, uh,
I don't know, you know, how you do it specifically
in your church, but
I just think it would be, it would probably be,
there's like what 10 churches in the country that probably
do it the way Mannerist Church does it. Tell us
some more
Speaker 2 (44:26):
our church is about 60-700 people and so yeah, a
little bit more manageable if you will in that in
that way, um, the way it would work for us
is if.
comes in, either they express a desire to be in
leadership or we, we see that in them or someone
sees that in them. What we do is that each
ministry has a leader and those leaders are encouraged to
(44:47):
be looking for people to put into uh positions where
they're assisting. Then once they've shown themselves faithful in an
assisting role, then oftentimes they might be invited into some
degree of leadership role.
And um and as they show themselves faithful with that,
we give them opportunities, give them really encouraging them to
try things out and um.
(45:08):
And then beyond that we have, you know, again, it's
for different roles, but like right now we, we have
several interns at our church who are pastors in training
and what that means they spend a year with us
and depending on whether they're going to plant somewhere else
or they're gonna work with us, uh, then we help
them to train kind of hands on in the area
(45:29):
of ministry where they want to be trained or if
they want to plant a church, we kind of.
Show them opportunities in every different ministry that we have
in our church to see, OK, how does this work
and what does it look like to lead in these things,
bring them into the room, give them opportunities and follow
that kind of model that you see with Jesus, right?
You watch me now I watch you give you feedback
(45:51):
and then we send you out on your own then
you report back and those sorts of things.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
So I think of the word pipeline as a tube, right?
So people are going down this tube, whatever, they're going
through it, and then is it possible for somebody to
cut in line? Maybe that's what Danny's question is kind
of like, we're, we're all going in the same direction
and then somebody comes out of nowhere, cuts me off,
and he becomes a leader when I thought I was
on my way there.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
Uh, I think that, you know, maybe somebody could enter
a leadership pipeline in the middle, and I think that
that's gonna be like if somebody comes from the outside,
if they have prior experience, if they have, um, training
or education, then yeah, we might let them cut in line,
but I, I would not say that that necessarily discounts
somebody else. I, I'd like to see more leaders, not
less leaders so uh definitely wouldn't, uh, say that choosing
(46:41):
one person as a leader would be at the expense
of someone else,
Speaker 1 (46:44):
right,
Ed.
I think it's all been brilliantly said. Our phone number
is 888-564-6173, and it spells something. What does it spell?
John 173. The 888 doesn't spell anything but the 56463.
J O H N. Does that even show up on
your phone anymore? Let me see if it does. So
(47:04):
if you type that in.
And you put in your keypad. It does, it does.
So you can take, uh, 888173, uh, or 888-564-6173. We
only got a few minutes left, so yes, indeed. And
really quick, the book that Ed mentioned, it's called Designed
to Lead by Eric Giger. It's available on Eric's website, Ericeiger.com.
(47:25):
Geiger spelled G E I G E R, Ericeiger.com, and
you can also hear Pastor Eric here on Kwave weekday
afternoons at 2 o'clock, right?
Renee, welcome to Pastor's Perspective. How can we help you?
Hi, thank you for taking my call. So, um, I'm
gonna try to make this a general question, but it
is really in relation to a specific scenario, but I'm
(47:49):
dealing with a situation where, um,
There's a lot of fear. I have a lot of
fear for something that's already occurred that could potentially get escalated,
where it could threaten my actual safety and the safety
of my family. And I've, we're, we're trying to put
the necessary like safeguards in place, but one of the
(48:09):
things that I've already spoke with like some of my
fellow brothers and sisters in church and whatnot, and one
of the things that they keep saying is, you know,
you have to replace the fear with faith.
And I'm struggling with how to do that when it's
a legitimate reason to be fearful.
And again, you said this is like physical safety too.
(48:29):
Exactly. Mhm. Right like law enforcement is involved and court
and things of that nature. So there's a personal safety concern.
And again, I, I get the concept of what they're saying,
like you can't live in fear and fear is from Satan, right?
And it's not from God, and we need to replace
that with
With faith, but it's very hard to do when you're
(48:50):
in that type of a situation. So I'm just kind
of looking for some insight and guidance there. Have you
guys noticed sometimes Christians throw out these things like, oh,
you need more faith to replace that fear, and it's
just like, OK, well, tell me how to do that
because it's easy to say, but it's not always easy
to actually do it. What do you think, Ed? Yeah,
I think, I think there's a, I think you're right on, Renee.
I think you're already are thinking through some of these issues.
(49:11):
You are in, and it sounds like what you're describing
is danger.
And the appropriate response to danger is a heightened concern
about safety. Now, the problem is we have like one
word for fear in English. So you have your, you have,
you've articulated some danger, law enforcement involved, you have a
heightened concern for safety.
(49:32):
Um, I, I wanna, I wanna take away from you
your concern that that's inappropriate. Um, if you have a
heightened concern for safety, you should take appropriate safeguards, and you've,
you've tried to avoid the specifics of the situation, so
we won't ask about those as well.
But I, I think the, the scripture applicability here is
not a heightened concern for safety. The scripture applicability here
(49:55):
is what you just said is you can't live your
life in fear. You have, it sounds like, perhaps rightfully,
a heightened concern for safety. Take appropriate actions for that.
And acknowledge that living in a heightened emotional state where
you're rehearsing this, or where you're living in dread, where it's, it's,
(50:15):
it's becoming like difficult to function in the day, that
may be where this passage is best applied.
Is how come might you have, you know, Jesus talks about, um,
my peace I give to you, not as the world gives,
I give unto you. Can you have a peace that
you're trusting the Lord in the midst of taking the
appropriate precautions? Uh, you know, can you look at Philippians
(50:36):
chapter 4 about being anxious for nothing? Can I, can
I say, I'm gonna do the rest of that verse,
but everything with prayer and supplication, let your requests be
made known to God.
So, taking what is a natural heightened sense of concern,
which could be called fear, and giving it over to
the Lord and trying to walk in as much peace
as you have in the midst of that, seems like
a good biblical spirit-filled path.
(50:58):
Nick
Speaker 2 (50:59):
Yeah, I would agree with that in the sense that
um I would say that even having that sense of
like needing to take care of yourself and your family
physically and having that be a concern, I would say
that that is a God-given response to real danger. So,
I, I don't want you to feel bad about that,
and I think it, it's an appropriate response and it
(51:20):
sounds like you're, you're doing the right things. But again, yeah,
anxiety is not something, not a place where you want
to live, even in the midst of this, and a
verse that comes to my mind, I'm teaching Nehemiah chapter 4.
I was assigned a passage to teach this coming Sunday
at a a church I'm gonna be speaking at, and
uh there's this incredible, you know, situation there where Nehemiah
(51:41):
and his men are actually threatened, their physical safety is threatened.
And Nehemiah's message to them, first of all, Nehemiah prays
to the Lord, and he talks to the Lord about
the situation, but then he talks to his men as well,
and what he says to them, he says, do not
be afraid of them, but remember the Lord. And so
it's kind of the idea of understanding that uh all
(52:01):
of us, you know, we have safety and security in
the Lord.
But all of us, there's going to come a day,
you know, and it's in the Lord's hands when that
day will come, when our lives here will end or
or those sorts of things. So I think that all
of us need to be um taking our eyes off
of anxious things and putting them on the Lord who
(52:24):
gives ultimate security and safety.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
What do you think, Renee?
I, I appreciate the, the, I appreciate that so much,
and I'm gonna, I'm gonna kind of, I know we only,
you only have a few minutes left, but I'm going
to expand a bit. I'm gonna also ask one other thing.
One of the things that in prayer that we've been
praying over this entire situation is um the individual who
has
(52:48):
committed the offense. They've been praying for him. He's not
a believer as far as we know, and his behavior
and actions have displayed that he's not a believer. And
yet we're praying for him and I'm finding it really
hard to pray for him.
Hm.
Yeah. And, and let me just say, Renee, you don't
have to be the person who's praying for him. You
(53:10):
might just go to the Lord and say, Lord, give
me strength and peace in the midst of this very
difficult situation. Um, I don't feel that you have to
do what other people are doing, you need to do
in the presence of the Lord, in peace and safety
for you and your family, what's right in your situation.
So, so again, sometimes you're not the right person to
(53:32):
be praying about somebody else, particularly somebody who may have, um,
have harmed you or or or we don't know the details,
or whatever it may be. So again, don't place upon
yourself requirements that the scripture text does not, there's not
a command that you have to do this. Um, you
might just at this point be just resting in the
Lord and gaining strength for the difficulty of this moment.
(53:55):
Nick, would you play, pray, I should say for Renee.
Got about a couple of minutes
left.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
Heavenly Father, we lift up Renee to you and her
family in this situation. I can tell that there's a
real desire to honor you in what they're doing and
how they're walking through this. And so Lord, I pray
that you would take away any unnecessary anxiety, any inappropriate
uh rumination over, uh, the, the fear that they have.
But Lord, I thank you that uh you have led
them to take appropriate steps, and we do pray for
(54:23):
your divine protection over their family. And we pray for
this person in question who who has committed these acts. Lord,
we do pray.
That he would come under conviction, Lord, that he would
turn to you, that he would repent of those things,
and ultimately, Lord, we pray for his salvation and for,
for transformation of his heart and his life. We pray
that in Jesus' name. Amen.
Speaker 1 (54:44):
Amen. Renee, thank you for calling in today here on
Pastor's Perspective, and if everybody listening and watching could keep
Renee and her family in your prayers too, that'd be great.
Thanks for joining us today. We are just about out
of time here on the program. We're gonna archive today's
episode on Facebook, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify in case
you missed any part of it or just want to
hear it again or you want to share it with
(55:05):
your friends. Ed Stetzer, Dean of the Talbot School of
Theology at Biola University, great to see you again. Thanks
for coming in.
And I remember you can hear Ed here on Kwave
Saturday mornings at 9 o'clock. And Nick, Katie, our special guest,
the pastor of Whitefields Community Church in Longmont, Colorado. If
you guys are going to Longmont, Colorado on vacation this summer,
(55:27):
that's the church to go to on a Sunday. Nick,
it was great having you, man. Thanks for having me.
Nick's amazing. Yes, and he'll be back next week as well. So, uh, Nick,
great to meet you, Ed, good to see you, and
we'll talk to you next time here on Pastor's Perspective.
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez.
It is Wednesday, the 30th of July, and we would
love to hear from you today if you've got a
question about the Bible, the Christian faith, just about anything
that's on your mind, we welcome your phone calls at 888-564-61.
73-888-564-6173. If you're watching online, thank you for. Did you
(00:38):
know you could watch online? Yes. In case you didn't
know you could watch us online. We're live streaming on
Facebook and YouTube and Instagram, so go there if you
want to see us. I don't know why you'd want
to see us, but, you know, you, you can. We
don't show any graphs or animation or anything like that.
It's just, you know, 3 people here in the studio
talking and
Answering questions, but it's fun, and uh we love that
(01:00):
you guys interact there in the chat amongst each other.
It's like this own little community. But we'd love to
hear from you if you've got a question at 888-564-6173.
Now, you can also send in your questions online. We've
got the Pastor's perspective Facebook page, or you can DM
us on, um, the pastor's perspective Instagram. You can go
to Kwave.com and click on the pastor's perspective page, fill
(01:23):
out the form, or you can scan the QR code
if you're watching online right now, and, uh, that will
take you to the pastor's perspective page where you can
submit your question. But again, the best way to get
an answer is to call us at 888-564-6173.
Let me introduce you to the, uh, one of the
guys who's gonna be answering your questions today. This is
(01:44):
Nick Kay. He's the pastor at Whitefields Community Church in Longmont, Colorado. Welcome, Nick,
to Pastor's Perspective.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Thanks, Brian. It's great to be here. Yeah,
Speaker 1 (01:56):
what brings you to Southern California?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Oh, several things. Uh, my wife is from Southern California.
We've got a lot of
here with uh with our Calvary Chapel church community and
I'm also speaking at a conference in Mexico in Baja,
this weekend. So there's a church planting conference and one
of the things I do with Calvary Global Network is
I lead our church planting initiative or church planter training initiative,
(02:21):
which is called Cultivate. So in relation to that, I'm
going to be speaking at this conference.
Down in Rosarito, there's a great church there, Calvary Rosarito,
that's hosting it and uh yeah, we'll be there for
a few days doing some other speaking and some family things. Nice.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Well, welcome to Pastor's perspective. uh, it's his first time
on the program, right? Right. All right, so you can
either go soft on him, go easy on him, just
ask the really simple questions, or we can grill him.
And uh, so where, what's your training? What's your, did
you go to Bible college?
What's your,
Speaker 2 (02:51):
uh, I moved to Hungary in 2002. I moved there
to work with the church with the intention that I
was gonna work with the church for about 8 months
and then I was gonna go to Bible College. The
Bible College, the Calvary Chapel Bible College Europe at that
time delayed its moving to Hungary, and that caused me
to just serve longer at that church.
(03:12):
And then when I was ready to go to Bible
College and the Bible College had moved, uh, basically the
leaders of the Bible College said, well, you know, we're
training people to do what you're doing, maybe just keep
doing it. So I did.
And then in 2005 I planted a church in northern
Hungary and as I was pastoring that church, I thought
to myself, you know, I really could use some more training.
(03:33):
I realized that that I was kind of just parroting
things that I had read, which I think is an
OK thing to do, but I really wanted to get
underneath it and learn. So, uh, through some relationships I
had at that time, I ended up going to school
in England, uh, remotely. So I went to the University
of Gloucestershire and I got my.
Bachelor of Arts in Christian theology and um at the time,
(03:57):
Gordon Windham was the the leader of that program at
uh Gloucester and just a great Old Testament scholar he
just recently passed away um and then um I enjoyed
that program so much that I went on and did
my master's also in England in uh London School of Theology.
And did that in integrative theology, which is basically like
(04:20):
the process by which people reach their theological conclusions. So
it has a lot to do with biblical interpretation and
hermeneutics and um fascinating stuff that I'm very passionate about,
but um,
Speaker 1 (04:33):
yeah,
that is great. So if you've got a question for Nick,
give us a call at 888-564-6173.
Ed Stetzer, ah, I just said his name, and he
walked in the door. Here he comes. Don't say what
3 times.
Your name. OK, I'll only say it twice. Uh, Ed
Stetzer is the dean of the Talbot School of Theology
(04:55):
at Biola University, and it's been a while since this guy,
whose name I can't say more than twice, have been
traveling too much. Yes, you have. You have been all
over the place. So Ed, this is Nick Kay. Hey Nick,
good to see you today. He's the pastor of Whitefields
Community Church in Longmont, Colorado. Googled him, and he's a
Calvary Chapel, uh, pastor. I saw that and he's got
(05:17):
a
Masters in philosophical theology or integrative theology. So that's super.
So and, and so I, I wanted to know who
is on the program with. Yes, yes, it was good,
good to meet you. So since Nick doesn't know who
you are, now tell us who you are. So I'm
a motivational speaker who lives in a van down by
the river. Um, my name's Ed Stetzer. I'm the dean
of the Talbot School of Theology at Biola University.
(05:38):
Uh, teaching pastor at Mariner's Church, preached my heart out
this weekend, so I'm a little tired. I'm still recovering
from preaching 3 days ago. You're still recovering 6 times
6 times. Then I got a job. I gotta go
to work and I got to do other stuff. So
I'm a little tired. I hear you. Don't judge me.
I'm not. I'm sorry. All right, 888-564-6173. It has been
(05:59):
a long time. Do you know how, you know, I'm
exhausted from having to give out the phone number so,
so I am so glad that you're here because you
can give the phone number. It is 888.
564-617-3 friends that call now with your questions to pastor's perspective, again,
it's 888-564-6173. It looks like Nick is getting ready to
(06:21):
walk out the door. He's like, What have I gotten
myself spin some records. Can we like do that? Were
you playing at the hits.
That'd be fun at WBCR. Yes, BCR, is that a
Chicago song? That's from you just made that up. Res
Resband had this thing and they have this little little
track and says how did this get in the stacks?
It says playing the hits all day all night in WBCR.
(06:41):
How'd this get in the stacks? Who's this resurrection band?
And if you remember Res band or Resurrection Band, I
think you should call and tell me your favorite story.
That band or band, yes, I remember that. Oh, see,
people are calling. People are calling about the red. Maybe
the res band is. I remember them, but I couldn't
tell you any of their songs. Really. I see wave
after wave of people in that'd be a perfect song
(07:03):
for Kwave. It would be. Do we, do we like have.
Music on K Whip. I only listen to talk. Yes,
we do not currently have music, but, uh, but you
want to spin some now? I would love to. Let's
do it. Let's bring in the turntable and just like
the old put it on. People are calling. I'm ready.
All right. All right, so let's start off with a
question that was sent in online, uh, but like I said,
(07:25):
the best way to, uh, get your question answered is
to call us. Haley wrote in.
And she says, my question is why did Jesus's half
brother James not believe that Jesus was the Messiah before
he was resurrected? I've been told it's because he thought
Jesus was losing his mind or maybe mentally ill. If
he did believe that, that he was mentally ill, why
(07:45):
couldn't he take his mother Mary's word for it that
Jesus was the Son of God? Or did Mary also
agree with James? And if so, why? Nick, what do
you say to Hayley?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Well, I think it one part of it at least
there might, there might be more layers to it, but
I'd say at least one part of it is that
it's just, it's a very fantastical thing, you know, to
believe that your half brother is the son of God.
I mean, I think that that seems a lot, yeah,
that's a lot, right? Uh, I mean, even John the
Baptist who was kind of privy to it and even
preached on it, um, multiple times, he even had his
(08:17):
doubts at times. I mean, it just, it seems like
a lot and
Uh, one of the things that always strikes me about
that whole thing with Gius's half siblings is just the
fact that they would have grown up with this brother who,
when they looked back on things, they would realize, you
know what, yeah, I guess he never sinned, you know,
there were, maybe there were disagreements. He was perfect, yeah, um,
(08:40):
and so there was some point where they said, well,
they looked back and they thought, OK, yeah, it's fantastical, it's,
it seems hard to wrap your head around, but
But they couldn't argue with it and they saw him resurrected.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, and I think that was a turning point is,
you know, of course post resurrection, uh, was it Gina? Uh,
Gina was Hailey, wow, there's not even a single letter
in common between the, um, there's name maybe, um, so, but,
but I do think, I mean, the, the, the Bible
actually tells us that they talked about was he out
of his mind. So, so there is that, um, there's also,
(09:16):
you know, I mean, maybe in some ways, you know,
familiarity breeds contempt. I mean,
You know, you kind of see up close, uh, maybe
you don't want to see what you see, you know,
I mean, this is, you gotta think about my brother
growing up with me, like walking with perfection and my childhood.
I'm sorry, sorry, my brother, my brother is a judge now.
He'll throw me in jail for that lie. Um, but I,
(09:38):
but I do think, I mean, the Bible doesn't give
us a lot of details here, but I do think
that um familiarity, uh, breeds contempt, we often say, and
I think that they thought Jesus was
Not all in his right mind, um, until later and
then that, I mean that's literally like that's not me
making it up. Don't be offended by that. That's literally the,
the words in the text.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
So and I mean, I, to me it's almost even
more impressive or incredible, the fact that once they did
see him resurrected that they actually worshiped him. I mean,
here you have these men who for the rest of
their lives worship this one with whom they grew up.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Yeah, because about you see things like, you know, prophets
without honor in his hometown. Imagine his family, you know,
so for sure, for sure. Good. Hayley, thank you for
sending in your question on, uh, the pastor's perspective Facebook page,
and here's one that we got from Instagram. It's from Amy.
I have a coworker who is Muslim, and he told
me they don't believe in the crucifixion of Jesus or
(10:35):
his resurrection.
And he told me his Bible is the one true
Bible and that all the others are fake. I didn't
say anything because I didn't want to start an argument.
I walked away, left it at that, but now I
want to know why he thinks the Koran is the
true Bible, and I was hoping to get some facts
to prove the Holy Bible is the real thing. Ed,
what do you say to Amy?
(10:57):
Yeah.
I don't know. In other words, I don't know how you,
I mean what I say to Amy is what we
believe as Christians, but I just don't know enough about
the situation, like, so, you know, so this is a
a Muslim friend who's claiming
You know, I mean, for me, I I was most recently,
I was over in Oxford and I got in with
(11:18):
a cab driver who's, uh, second time I was had
the same cab driver, he said, you talked to me
last time.
And I said to him, you know, the
You know, the, the Quran talks about Jesus and, and,
and of course he calls him Esau and the and
the Quran talks calls him Esau.
And it's kind of interesting cause when you see Jesus
in the Quran, Andy Bannister, who's written a book on Islam,
(11:43):
he's a scholar of Islam, he said that when you
see Jesus in the Quran, it's sort of like Gandalf
showing up in pride and prejudice. You're kind of like,
wait a sec, this character doesn't fit in here. It's like,
why is this character in here? And so what I
try to do when I'm witnessing and trying to show
the faith with a with a Muslim.
is to say, there's enough in the Quran about Esau,
(12:08):
including that you should listen to him, you should, you
should learn more of him and about him.
So, the best place to do that, there are actually
4 biographies of Jesus, that's why I call him the start.
There are 4 biographies of Jesus, and, and I just
want to encourage you to consider reading one of the
4 short biographies of Jesus. At this point they're like, well, what,
what biographies? Well, they actually called the Gospels, and there's
(12:30):
4 of them, and they, they are actually in the
Christian Bible, but they are very clearly biographies of Jesus,
and you can see in the Quran, some of that,
what those recorded in those biographies actually being referenced in
the Quran.
So I said, would you consider reading the Gospel of
John with me? And then let's talk about it. Let's
talk about who Jesus is in the Bible, uh, you know,
(12:53):
most people, most Muslims don't, they know Esau's in the Quran,
but they don't know much more, because really,
It's a strange fit, like I said, it's Gandalf and
Pride and Prejudice. So that's the approach I would take.
I wouldn't try to, I, I was, we were just
having a conversation about our projects program at at Viola.
And, you know, we have the largest apologetics master group
program in the world. And a lot of people study
(13:15):
apologetics because they want to win arguments. And, and I
think that's maybe the way we thought of it 34
years ago. Uh, today, we're just talking about even how
we want to communicate our program. I said we want
to build bridges. So I don't know you'll win the
argument about
The Bible that they prefer or don't prefer. But I
think you build a bridge with a Muslim and then
(13:36):
and and by saying let's talk about who Isa is
and let's read his biography and talk about it afterwards.
Is that, is that sort of, yeah, I think so, Nick.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Yeah, I, I agree with that and then, you know,
I was just gonna share some experience that I had.
I lived in Hungary and during the time that I
lived there, I lived there very, you know, close around 9/11.
So after 9/11 happened, we got a lot of refugees
coming from Afghanistan and from other places, you know, over
those next few years. And so we worked in a
(14:04):
UNHCR refugee camp. We got a lot of help from
the uh Bible Society, the International Bible Society, sending us
Bibles in different languages.
And one of the things that we learned working with
Muslim people was that um the New Testament, which they
call the Injil is uh one of the books that
they consider to be a holy book. And so they're
very inclined to read it and many people from, you know,
(14:26):
certain backgrounds, they haven't had a chance or they've been
discouraged from reading it. So I, I would agree with
that in that sense, just hand them a Bible and
and have them read it. The, the other part that
um we would often debate with them or discuss with them.
Was that their their big argument, and we know they
talk about the difference between their Bibles is as it's
put in this question here, is that they, they believe
(14:49):
that the New Testament as we have it, has been
corrupted as well as the Old Testament, and that there's
this kind of like the preserved and correct version.
And, uh, essentially what the Quran is when it talks
about some Old Testament stories and some New Testament stories
is kind of like a redacted version of the Bible.
So there are some stories about Abraham that have been
(15:10):
changed from what the way they are in the Bible
that we would read the Holy Bible. And the same
is true in the New Testament. And so,
The real benefit that we have is that we can
actually go back and look at manuscript evidence if someone's
willing to do that, right? So if this friend of
hers is willing to look into manuscript evidence and those
sorts of things, um, that's all very much available, um,
(15:33):
both for the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
And Ed, is this the book that you were talking
about from Andy Bannister? Do Muslims and Christians worship the
same God? It is indeed. All right. And Andy's great. Actually,
we're about to launch our, I don't know if I
should say this publicly, but what we are about to
launch our certificate in Muslim.
It's a Muslim apolog politics, but it's not like it's
not called that because it sounds like Muslims doing the
(15:57):
uh engaging Muslims with apologetics.
And, uh, and Andy's one of the participants. We have
this amazing array of people and we go through all
of these things and it's gonna be a certificate program
available at the Talbot School of Theology but wow, you
heard it here first, folks and maybe you weren't supposed
to be sure I was supposed to say that. So,
so forgive me. I did get a comment from, uh,
(16:18):
from a guy on uh Resband like he's listening right now,
one of one of ours. Well, he just said Resband, so,
so he's listening and so he's a, he did say
he did say recently he misses me. It's, it's, it's
resurrected vinyl. I'm not sure.
Who that is. Well, shout out to, uh, resurrected vinyl,
but he's, he just told me he misses me on Pastortive,
so I feel good being back. You were missed. I
(16:39):
don't know if I was really missed. We have, we
have great people from Talbot every week, don't we? Aren't
we like consistently Talbotting almost every week, yeah, every now
and then something almost the biola hour. Yes, you have
to be a certain age to get that reference. It
used to be a radio program for those who don't know,
called the Biola Hour every week.
And it goes it a full hour long? I would have,
I think it was at one point, then it got
shortened to 30 minutes, but they didn't change it, right? Yeah,
(17:00):
because I remember that was is Jay Vernon McGee like
still playing somewhere in LA? He's on K-wave. He's on K-wave. OK.
Do you know that I'm his successor at the Church
of the Open Door? No, no, no. Jay Vernon McGee
was the head of the English Bible department.
At the Bible Institute of Los Angeles, which is Biola,
which is Biola, and now the Talbot School of Theology.
(17:20):
So it's like the names have changed, but I have
the job that he used to have when it was
a small Bible college, and so that's kind of fun.
So Jay Vernon McGee and now the Biola Hour today. Sorry,
I'm sorry, Nick, we just
This is why they don't have me in because I
just ramble incessant. It's all good. Jared and Redlands, thank
you for calling in to Pastor's Perspective today. 888-564-6173 is
(17:45):
the number that Jared called. Jared, you are on with
Ed Stetzer and Nick Katie.
Yeah, hi, uh, my question is, uh, regarding the hypostatic union. Um, Jesus, uh,
you know, he was fully God, fully man. He had
(18:05):
both natures as I understand it.
Um, when he ascended to heaven.
Did he, did he give up his human nature at
all and it only divine nature?
And then along with that, did he have.
He has some sort of glorified body, but is it?
(18:29):
Still a human.
Uh, nature, I'm just trying to understand how that works with.
The incarnation and the hypostatic union. Thanks. All right, Ed.
Can I just say that only on pastor's perspective, do
you get a call asking questions about the hypostatic union. OK. Jared, uh,
(18:52):
super question. So, of course, um, the, the, let's, we
got to define some things because normal people don't know
what the hypostatic union is. So hypothetic union is the, uh,
the Christian belief, the Orthodox Christian belief that Jesus is
um one person with two distinct natures, right? So the
(19:12):
Fully divine and fully human, which Jared already said, um,
and specifically in the Council of Chalcedon would say things like,
you know, united without confusion, change, division, separation. Um, so,
and this is what Orthodox Christians, not, not big old
Orthodox like Eastern Orthodox, but Christians who believe he hold
Orthodox beliefs. So, the answer to your specific question is,
(19:35):
is that we do believe that Jesus retains his human
nature permanently, not just temporarily.
And so his resurrected body is a glorified human body,
for example, it, uh, you know, in John chapter 20,
he appears behind closed doors, and he shows them his
hands on his side. So simultaneously, he has the marks
(19:56):
of the crucifixion and is appearing behind closed doors in
miraculous ways. So, he did, um, he ascended bodily, that's
an important thing. So, so that human body is still
there and
He reigns at the right hand of the father, um,
(20:17):
in bodily form. So, he does indeed retain his human nature.
He actually will return in the same physical body in
which he ascended. So he does retain that. Now again,
body is not nature fully, but deeply connected between the two. Now,
it's important for a lot of reasons, right? So he's
the mediator, right? His ongoing role as high priest and mediator.
(20:41):
Uh, is, is really essential for that, and his eternal
identification with humanity. He permanently identifies with humanity, not just
during his 33 years on Earth, but, but forever. So
big answer to the question, yes, Jesus still has a
human nature and a human body, even after his resurrection
and ascension. Nick Kay.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Yeah, and just jumping on that, um, I pronounce it chalcedon.
Was I wrong?
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah, you could do either way. It's kind of like
August Augustine.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
OK, I'm gonna pronounce a big part of cedon was
trying to understand like this hypothetic union, why is it
important for our salvation and a big, uh, verse for
this in the Bible was in Hebrews chapter 2, verse 14,
which says that since the children share in flesh and blood,
he himself likewise partook of the same things.
(21:29):
And so that was a big part of the debate was,
you know, was Jesus fully human and how did that work?
And does he retain that? And so the idea is, yeah,
after the incarnation, then he's eternally, uh, has a, you know,
he's one person with two natures, without confusion, without change,
without division, without separation. And um,
Speaker 1 (21:50):
yeah,
cool. And that's the, that's not what everyone believes he
uses the word Christian to describe themselves. You go to
the churches of the east, there's some
Uh, but that would be what evangelicals believe, what our
Catholic friends believe, what our Orthodox friends believe. It's, it's
pretty much, uh, they're united on the 7, what we
(22:10):
call the seven ecumenical councils. So great, great question, Jerry.
Just a light, just a light question for an afternoon drive.
Jerry down the roads. I got some questions about this
as well. Does that help you, Jared?
Yeah, thank you so much. Awesome, man. Thank you for
calling in today to come do a master's in theology
with us. You have a master's in integrated theology
Speaker 2 (22:31):
from London School of Theology. Oh,
Speaker 1 (22:33):
London School
of Theology. OK, super, super, super. Well that makes sense.
That makes sense. What is, what are you integrating?
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Oh, it's actually about theological methods, so I'm not sure
why it's necessarily called that. I mean, that's a field
of study in theology. It's integrated theology, but maybe a
layman's term would just be theological method. So we're looking
at how you use the source of theology in relation
to each other and how different people use that to
come to their theological
beliefs.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
LST, the outside of Anglicanism, the largest seminary in Europe.
I think uh the, the Church of England out of
HDB what's what's Saint Meliss is larger now, but the
London School of Theology, great, good, good school, good school,
not that you need my mark of approval.
Well, you're the bio guy, so that's true. Well, he
can come do a doctorate with us.
(23:16):
I hear the savior calling. Ed's just trying to get
everybody signed up today. ABC, man, always be closing. How
do you think we are growing so much? That's right.
I just get to tell people about the awesomeness of
the Talbot School of Theology. Yeah, anyway, yeah, could be
because of this radio program. It is this radio program
has made it possible. So the Biola Hour. Can we
call it Biola Kate Wave University? Probably not, probably not.
(23:41):
I think you legal names of universities exist. OK, fine.
Uh, 888-564-6173. We've got Ed Stetzer, the dean of the
Talbot School of Theology at Byola University here, and our
guest today, for the very first time, Pastor Nick Kay.
He is from White Fields. Hold on, let me get
this right. Don't want to mess it up. White Fields
(24:01):
Community Church, uh, John 4:35. Lift up your eyes, see
that the fields are white for harvest. So great name
for a church. And it's on Colorful Avenue. That is
a great name for a street.
Fields Colorful Avenue. Yes, yes. Now what's that near? It's
like in Colorado, right? So we're
Speaker 2 (24:17):
in the city of Longmont, which is a sister city
to Boulder. So Longmont and Boulder are kind of twin city.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Yep, I've been there many a time. I work with
glue out there and stuff like that. So, OK, very cool,
very cool. AAA, add phone number. The phone number is 888-564-6173. Again,
call us up. you know, you don't have to have
a hypostatic union question.
Uh, 888, just don't ask tattoo questions. I, I don't like,
(24:44):
I noticed you get a lot of tattoo questions. We do.
I do. I know. And what do I have right
now on my hands? tattoos. Who tattoos. So anyway, any
tattoos before we leave today, let's commit.
To go down to get a tattoo. You know my
tattoo tattoo that says Viola University. So you know my
tattoo story about Brian Broderson, right? So me tell you this,
but first, let me remind people they can call, but
(25:06):
not about tattoos, 888-564-6173. So you know, he was doing
his master's degree with us and so we were in,
we were studying the Old Testament in Israel and there
were 15 of them in the class.
And one of them is a pastor named Matt Chandler.
One of them says, we're at Razooks, which is the
oldest tattoo parlor in the world. Continues stopping tattoo parlor
(25:28):
in the world. They used to do tattoos for the Crusaders, uh,
and so I don't know how old it is, like
800 years old or something, I think it was 800,
and they're not using the same needles for, it's modern
modern methods now, but it's really cool looking. So, uh,
Chandler starts pushing the other students in the class to
go get a tattoo, right?
Peer pressure. So by the time we're done, 2/3 of
(25:51):
the people get a tattoo. So I think it's I
think it's 9 out of the 15 students, but Brian
Broderson stood like a rock against the peer pressure. So again,
if you have questions about tattoos, wait till Pastor Brian's on,
because he's clearly against them.
Our number is 888-564-6173.
Yes,
Speaker 2 (26:11):
I'm certainly not against tattoos, but I feel like I'm
the only person my age that I know who doesn't
have any tattoos. Now I feel like I am actually
now the counterculture. You
Speaker 1 (26:20):
are rebelling,
yeah, I'm right there.
58 years of age and I got tattoos like a
couple of years ago. Yeah, they're just really to the family.
One's a wedding ring, you know, so and the other
one has to do with our family was a little
turtle that our family's been the herd of turtles forever,
but like I didn't realize I got I one a
few it was right, uh, during COVID.
(26:40):
Which what was great was I was, they're on my hands. So,
I didn't realize that, you know, everything was on Zoom
for a while and like, all it ended up to
is people asking, what's on your hand? What's on your hand?
What's on your hand? And then I regretted it afterwards,
but I like my wife and I got a wedding ring,
and I like my kids, anyway.
Very cool. All right. 888-564-6173. Don't forget you can also
(27:01):
hear Ed Stetzer here on Kwave Saturday mornings at 9 o'clock.
That's always a great program. We give him the whole hour.
He has a different phone number. I don't know how
he does that, or he doesn't confuse the two phone numbers, but, uh,
I looked up there and I read 888-564-6173. We've got
it right there, eye level. Rosie and Hemetz, welcome to
Pastor's Perspective. How are you doing today?
(27:24):
Good, thank you. Great. What's your question for us?
Can you broaden the answer to this question so it
doesn't sound like a um contradiction. So we are saved
by grace, so there's um on Calvary we've already been
saved through Jesus Christ on, on, on Calvary. So then
(27:45):
why are we required to have fruit?
To be heaven bound. All right, Nick, what do you say?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Yeah, I just taught on uh some passages that relate
to this. Just the last few weeks I've been teaching
through Matthew's Gospel and just uh taught through Matthew 25,
and there are a few parables that Jesus tells and
a few stories that he tells as well that have
to do with this.
But what I would tell you is this, it really
comes down to not having to or being required to
(28:15):
produce fruit, but that fruit is something which will show
that you have been saved. And so, for example, Jesus says,
Um, to people in Matthew chapter 7 who come to
him and they say, hey, we did all these things
in your name, and he says, the problem is you
never knew me, and that was shown by the fact
that you did evil deeds rather than the will of
(28:36):
the Father. And so we see this as a consistent
theme throughout the New Testament that um
That those who are saved will necessarily, I mean, like,
without even trying, though we should also try, but without
even trying, we will produce fruit. That's actually the nature
of fruit if you think about trees, is that a
tree doesn't grunt it out and force it out. It
happens naturally because of the health of the tree and
(28:59):
what the tree is intrinsically. So I hope that, hope
Speaker 1 (29:03):
that's I think it's just 30 seconds. I have more
to say. So let's let's come back on the other side.
Because I think it's a good opportunity to talk about
like lordship salvation and have a little discussion about what
that means, you know, uh, John MacArthur, uh, just recently
went on to be with the Lord, big proponent of
lordship salvation that that there would be a requirement that
(29:24):
there would be subsequent fruit that would be evidence of
the salvation by grace alone, through faith alone.
And I think it'd be good to kind of tease
that out a little bit. So let's, we'll continue this conversation.
Our phone number is 888-564-6173. That's it. Rosie, can you
hang with us through the break?
Yes, thank you. Awesome. 888-564-6173 for the rest of you
(29:46):
to call in and talk to us as well. We'll
talk to Ben when we come back too, and we're
waiting to talk to you. 888-564-6173. If you're watching on Facebook,
YouTube or Instagram, grab an open line 888-564-6173.
(30:17):
We're back on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number to
call us today. We're going to be in the studio
for about another 25 minutes, and we'd love to hear
from you. 888-564-6173. Our special guest is Nick Kay. He's
the pastor of White Fields Community Church in
Longmont, Colorado. He is in town. So he said, Hey,
(30:40):
come on in. So he's answering your questions today. So
is the dean of the Talbot School of Theology at
Biola University, Ed Trekki, I mean Ed Stetzer. It's a treker,
a trekker. He is diminutive. Trekker is what we prefer
to be called. So you're a big Star Trek guy.
I mean, I did attend the Star Trek experience when
(31:01):
I was in Las Vegas, so, but I would say yes.
You have a Star Trek tattoo somewhere? I do not.
I do not, but I, I do enjoy a little, uh,
science fiction from now and then. Not a Star Wars guy,
not a Star Wars at all. Yeah, so my wife
recently said to me, so what's the difference? Are they
pretty much the same thing? So at that point there
was trouble in the house. You thought of removing the tattoo.
(31:25):
The tattoo is irremovable. Um, but yeah, a little bit
of Star Trek guy. So, so, all right, so we're
gonna go back to, uh, to Rosie's question. So, I
think it's probably helpful because Rosie's question does sort of
point to a debated issue in evangelicalism, particularly on the
reform side of evangelicalism. And so there's the idea of
lordship salvation. So lordship salvation, which probably John MacArthur would
(31:49):
be the best known proponent of this.
Teaches that we are saved by faith alone.
But it's connected to or accompanied by, must be accompanied
by submission to the lordship of Christ, which then leads
to the fruit. So that that's kind of the picture
uh that that's there. So this is um
(32:09):
You know, the, the, the idea is you might use
the word conjoined, this connected with you, you, you submit
to Jesus and you experience saving faith, where people with
free grace theology would say, well, like, like Arscar Clock
and R.
If I can learn to speak and say people's names. R.
Scott Clark. So, OK, well, there you go. I hear something. Um,
(32:34):
she was excited about my answer, I think so or
in another conversation, and the only the people left behind
who didn't ask the question are listening. So like just
down the road in Westminster Seminary, R. Scott Scott Clark
would say, no, no, I mean, what we believe about
justification is you're you're justified, you're declared justified, and there's
not and you have to do so and so.
(32:55):
I kind of come down probably.
In the middle, that there's a that salvation is by
grace through faith, that justification makes it just as if
I'd never sinned.
And that would naturally and normally lead to a life
bearing much fruit. And when it doesn't, something has gone wrong.
(33:19):
Either there's not a genuine faith in Christ, and this
is kind of a Baptist view, to be honest. So, uh,
Baptists always sort of like Calvary Chapel, they take the
middle road on things.
But I'd be interested to see, I mean, how would you, Nick,
how would you add to that or have you wrestled
through you just preached on
this,
Speaker 2 (33:34):
yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I, I would take that view.
I in a way it is a it is a
bit of splitting hairs, right, because
Speaker 1 (33:40):
it's a I don't think
John MacArthur or Clark Clark would
Speaker 2 (33:43):
say
Speaker 1 (33:44):
which
Speaker 2 (33:44):
I guess shows that I am what you say, which
is kind of
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Chapel Baptist
we often take the
middle path,
Speaker 2 (33:50):
yeah, and just basically what is.
What does it mean to believe in Jesus, that Greek
word pisteo, does it just mean to, uh, intellectually ascend
to that? Is it like in the reform view, is
it something which is imposed on you or is it predestination,
Speaker 1 (34:08):
but let's come back to the what you believe. If
you believe in your heart, right? I mean, that's what
it says, if you believe in your heart.
You know, raise him from the dead, you shall be saved.
It doesn't say in that passage, if you obey him, you'll,
you shall be saved.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
OK, so yeah, to go a little further on this,
I guess, I guess in this case, I would lean
a little bit more towards the definition of what saving
faith means a little bit towards MacArthur's side.
And here's why. Because one of the questions I got
just after preaching on Matthew 25, um, you know, we
preach the sermon to our staff on Fridays and elicit
(34:44):
feedback to to like prepare for the sermon. One of
the our interns actually asked a really good question. He said, well,
if it says in Romans 10, that if you call
upon the name of the Lord, you'll be saved, well,
then why is it that in Matthew 7, Jesus talks
to people who say to him, Lord, Lord, like they're
literally saying the word Lord and calling him Lord.
And then Jesus says that they never knew him and
(35:05):
they won't be saved.
And so it would seem that just saying the word
or even calling him Lord, or even believing that he
is something is not enough, that that saving faith is
a faith that is willing to submit and surrender to
him as Lord.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
So, your question, Rosie, is, is a, it's actually a
big theological question and the the alternative would be if
we didn't I'm kind of where you similar where you are.
If we didn't hold that, and we held to just
this overwhelming sense of, uh, well, free grace theology is
what it's often called, um, you end up being accused
(35:45):
of antonomianism, which means you don't believe that there are
laws and you shouldn't live, your life shouldn't change. And
so what challenges me is this quote from Martin Lloyd Jones.
It says, if you're preaching of the gospel of God's
free grace in Jesus Christ does not provoke the charge
of from some of antonomianism,
You're not preaching the gospel of free, grace of God
(36:06):
and Jesus Christ. So, there is a sense that you
want to be very clear, well, the where the Bible's clear,
by grace you're say, through faith, it's not of yourselves,
lest anyone should boast. But the first act of obedience
is baptism, and subsequent acts of obedience are fruit that
flow from that as well. But I would say that
(36:27):
what we all agree on.
Is that salvation is by grace and through faith, and
that normally fruit should flow from that normatively and practiced.
What do you think, Rosie, of the answers we just
gave you? I agree.
All right, I agree. Very good. Thank you. Thank you, Rosie.
I'm sorry. I go, this is the professor in me.
I just go on long, some might say rants, some
(36:50):
might say lectures, some might say helpful information. You decide.
It's all good. Thank you, Rosie, for calling in today
to Pastor's perspective. 888-564-6173 is our number. Let's answer a
question that was sent in online on the Kwave.com pastor's
perspective page. It is from Flor, who lives in Downey.
And she writes, Hello, pastors. I have a question about
(37:11):
forgiveness and submission. My husband hates my side of the
family because of altercations that happened in the beginning of
our marriage. He's always talking about them negatively, and I
will listen, but I can't any more.
We have given them space, and I thought things would
heal and get better with time. He only approves that
(37:33):
we spend every single holiday with his side, including birthdays.
I still talk to my family, but they're not welcome
in our home. My husband says he's a Christian, but
I thought we were supposed to forgive and reconcile. I
want my family close, but he doesn't want us associating
with them. What am I supposed to do? Is this
where I submit? Nick, what do you say to Flora?
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yeah, it's a, it's a difficult question in one sense because, um,
you know, if you would ask your question for, if
you'd ask your husband rather, has he forgiven.
You know, your family members, he might say yes, you know,
and so I mean, we clearly have a command from
Jesus to forgive those who have sinned against us, and
(38:17):
along with it comes a warning that if we refuse
to forgive those who sinned against us, then uh our
Father in heaven will not forgive us. And so,
Um, the difficulty then comes with this, it's one thing
to forgive someone and then to pursue reconciliation and to
rebuild trust is something else. But personally, I would say
like the unwillingness to seek restoration of a relationship, the
(38:42):
unwillingness to seek reconciliation over time, I think that that
is um
That's something that's concerning. That's something I would be concerned about. Um,
so yeah, I'm curious what you think, Ed.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Oh, you are, um.
Yeah, here's the thing, like, this is the challenge with this.
Is that we don't know the whole story, right? We
don't know what the altercations were at. We don't know
what the altercations were like we don't know if really
terrible things were done that would require an appropriate creation
(39:16):
of boundaries because there are things that families could have done.
And that, that, that uh the husband would rightfully say,
we need to not, we need to not allow this
back into our family and our homes, or, or my
wife could say that similarly, right? There are boundaries that
could be. So we don't know. I mean, it's very
(39:36):
strong language in this, in this comment. My husband hates
my side of the family because of altercations that happen.
In the beginning of our marriage. Now, hate is, is
not it, but, but is that how he would describe it,
or is he trying to protect the family from something?
And I, and I, I don't know. Here's some key
things that I see in here, um, is that it
sounds like you are at a substantive impasse with your husband.
(39:59):
He said he says he's a Christian, but I thought
we were supposed to forgive and reconcile. I would say,
forgiving and reconciling are not always the same thing. I
have forgiven people that I recognized for the sake of, uh,
my my family or whatever, that there's not reconciliation that's helpful,
sometimes not thoughtful, but sometimes it's not the right thing. I,
(40:20):
you can forgive somebody and not reconcile, get back into
relationship with them, but um,
You know, I, I would say that that it sounds
like you need to get some outside help and some
outside conversation. Probably not a, you know, comment on a,
on a, uh, you know, this is fine, we want
the comments. But I think this is something you need
(40:41):
to navigate and get some arbitration to kind of talk
through this with somebody else, uh, the strength of the
language he hates, um,
You know, aren't we supposed to forgive and reconcile? Uh,
he doesn't want to associate that. What am I supposed
to do? Is this where I submit? Uh, and, and
I don't know that because we don't even know, for example,
can you go see your family? I mean, I don't
(41:02):
see you indicating she says she does, um, yeah, so
the place that you're, yeah, but is she like doing
it in secret or something, or is he OK with
her the place where you're submitting, I don't know that
it's a submission question if you're still in a relationship
with your family. It's a question of what you do
together and sounds like he's choosing not to, but
Again, this is where it's just tricky. I just, there's
(41:23):
a lot here that we don't know fully how to
unpack and understand, but I would say it sounds like
an unhealthy situation and you need to get some counsel
and can walk through it with somebody, somebody else at
this point if you're at that, if you're at this
place of where you can't come to an agreement. All right, Flo,
thank you for sending in your question through the Kwave.com
pastor's perspective page. Here's a question that was sent in
(41:43):
on Instagram from Danny. What would a leadership pipeline look
like for you?
First of all, what is a leadership pipeline?
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Uh, leadership pipeline, um, and I know you've written
Speaker 1 (41:54):
it's a pipeline of leaders. That's what I wanna say,
but you tell us
more,
Speaker 2 (41:58):
you know, I'll, I'll just say how I've, we've used
it in our church and is that it's basically the
pathway through which we regularly, uh, elevate someone into leadership or,
or it's a pathway steps people can take if they
desire to be in leadership, which as we read in
the New Testament is a good and noble thing for
someone to desire to be an elder or to be
a leader.
(42:19):
And so, um, what does that process look like? How
does somebody get into that process? How do they know
what the next step is in that process? A lot
of times I find that leaders do this intuitively, like they,
they have something in mind, but they maybe haven't articulated it,
or maybe they haven't put it on paper or thought
it through even in their own mind, but there there's
a way in which, how does somebody who's new to
(42:42):
the Lord,
Then get involved into leadership, and then how do they,
if you will, ascend or come through a leadership pipeline
to a place where they could be a leader if
that's what God has called them to do in any capacity.
Doesn't necessarily mean, you know, certain roles or positions in
a given church, but how do they do that? And
so leadership pipeline would just have different stages and it
(43:03):
would have might have processes through which a person gets
elevated into leadership, so.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
Yeah, I don't like, I, I don't know that he
asked for you, so I'm at Mariner's Church, and I
don't know that telling how we do it at a
church of our monstrosity size is gonna help the typical
person like we have processes and classes and staff members,
you know, so, so what I would say is a
(43:29):
normal healthy church, which the typical church in the United
States is actually the median church in the United States
is about 70 now.
Uh, most people go to a church, if you look
at the midpoint in the low 200s, it's going to be,
how are we helping.
Uh, believers step into their spiritual gifts, uh, find ways
to grow in the use of their spiritual gifts, and,
(43:50):
and try out areas of leadership.
And uh I would actually recommend the book my pastor wrote.
Eric Guyer wrote Designed to lead. It's got a whole
chapter called Leadership pipeline, and the whole thing really is
about leadership pipeline, and it talks about how from, you know,
discipleship and leadership are so well connected together. I would
check out a Designed to Lead by, uh, it's Garrett
Guyger and Kevin Beck, Peck, Kevin Peck, and I think they,
(44:13):
they do a good job. And again, I think, uh,
I don't know, you know, how you do it specifically
in your church, but
I just think it would be, it would probably be,
there's like what 10 churches in the country that probably
do it the way Mannerist Church does it. Tell us
some more
Speaker 2 (44:26):
our church is about 60-700 people and so yeah, a
little bit more manageable if you will in that in
that way, um, the way it would work for us
is if.
comes in, either they express a desire to be in
leadership or we, we see that in them or someone
sees that in them. What we do is that each
ministry has a leader and those leaders are encouraged to
(44:47):
be looking for people to put into uh positions where
they're assisting. Then once they've shown themselves faithful in an
assisting role, then oftentimes they might be invited into some
degree of leadership role.
And um and as they show themselves faithful with that,
we give them opportunities, give them really encouraging them to
try things out and um.
(45:08):
And then beyond that we have, you know, again, it's
for different roles, but like right now we, we have
several interns at our church who are pastors in training
and what that means they spend a year with us
and depending on whether they're going to plant somewhere else
or they're gonna work with us, uh, then we help
them to train kind of hands on in the area
(45:29):
of ministry where they want to be trained or if
they want to plant a church, we kind of.
Show them opportunities in every different ministry that we have
in our church to see, OK, how does this work
and what does it look like to lead in these things,
bring them into the room, give them opportunities and follow
that kind of model that you see with Jesus, right?
You watch me now I watch you give you feedback
(45:51):
and then we send you out on your own then
you report back and those sorts of things.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
So I think of the word pipeline as a tube, right?
So people are going down this tube, whatever, they're going
through it, and then is it possible for somebody to
cut in line? Maybe that's what Danny's question is kind
of like, we're, we're all going in the same direction
and then somebody comes out of nowhere, cuts me off,
and he becomes a leader when I thought I was
on my way there.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
Uh, I think that, you know, maybe somebody could enter
a leadership pipeline in the middle, and I think that
that's gonna be like if somebody comes from the outside,
if they have prior experience, if they have, um, training
or education, then yeah, we might let them cut in line,
but I, I would not say that that necessarily discounts
somebody else. I, I'd like to see more leaders, not
less leaders so uh definitely wouldn't, uh, say that choosing
(46:41):
one person as a leader would be at the expense
of someone else,
Speaker 1 (46:44):
right,
Ed.
I think it's all been brilliantly said. Our phone number
is 888-564-6173, and it spells something. What does it spell?
John 173. The 888 doesn't spell anything but the 56463.
J O H N. Does that even show up on
your phone anymore? Let me see if it does. So
(47:04):
if you type that in.
And you put in your keypad. It does, it does.
So you can take, uh, 888173, uh, or 888-564-6173. We
only got a few minutes left, so yes, indeed. And
really quick, the book that Ed mentioned, it's called Designed
to Lead by Eric Giger. It's available on Eric's website, Ericeiger.com.
(47:25):
Geiger spelled G E I G E R, Ericeiger.com, and
you can also hear Pastor Eric here on Kwave weekday
afternoons at 2 o'clock, right?
Renee, welcome to Pastor's Perspective. How can we help you?
Hi, thank you for taking my call. So, um, I'm
gonna try to make this a general question, but it
is really in relation to a specific scenario, but I'm
(47:49):
dealing with a situation where, um,
There's a lot of fear. I have a lot of
fear for something that's already occurred that could potentially get escalated,
where it could threaten my actual safety and the safety
of my family. And I've, we're, we're trying to put
the necessary like safeguards in place, but one of the
(48:09):
things that I've already spoke with like some of my
fellow brothers and sisters in church and whatnot, and one
of the things that they keep saying is, you know,
you have to replace the fear with faith.
And I'm struggling with how to do that when it's
a legitimate reason to be fearful.
And again, you said this is like physical safety too.
(48:29):
Exactly. Mhm. Right like law enforcement is involved and court
and things of that nature. So there's a personal safety concern.
And again, I, I get the concept of what they're saying,
like you can't live in fear and fear is from Satan, right?
And it's not from God, and we need to replace
that with
With faith, but it's very hard to do when you're
(48:50):
in that type of a situation. So I'm just kind
of looking for some insight and guidance there. Have you
guys noticed sometimes Christians throw out these things like, oh,
you need more faith to replace that fear, and it's
just like, OK, well, tell me how to do that
because it's easy to say, but it's not always easy
to actually do it. What do you think, Ed? Yeah,
I think, I think there's a, I think you're right on, Renee.
I think you're already are thinking through some of these issues.
(49:11):
You are in, and it sounds like what you're describing
is danger.
And the appropriate response to danger is a heightened concern
about safety. Now, the problem is we have like one
word for fear in English. So you have your, you have,
you've articulated some danger, law enforcement involved, you have a
heightened concern for safety.
(49:32):
Um, I, I wanna, I wanna take away from you
your concern that that's inappropriate. Um, if you have a
heightened concern for safety, you should take appropriate safeguards, and you've,
you've tried to avoid the specifics of the situation, so
we won't ask about those as well.
But I, I think the, the scripture applicability here is
not a heightened concern for safety. The scripture applicability here
(49:55):
is what you just said is you can't live your
life in fear. You have, it sounds like, perhaps rightfully,
a heightened concern for safety. Take appropriate actions for that.
And acknowledge that living in a heightened emotional state where
you're rehearsing this, or where you're living in dread, where it's, it's,
(50:15):
it's becoming like difficult to function in the day, that
may be where this passage is best applied.
Is how come might you have, you know, Jesus talks about, um,
my peace I give to you, not as the world gives,
I give unto you. Can you have a peace that
you're trusting the Lord in the midst of taking the
appropriate precautions? Uh, you know, can you look at Philippians
(50:36):
chapter 4 about being anxious for nothing? Can I, can
I say, I'm gonna do the rest of that verse,
but everything with prayer and supplication, let your requests be
made known to God.
So, taking what is a natural heightened sense of concern,
which could be called fear, and giving it over to
the Lord and trying to walk in as much peace
as you have in the midst of that, seems like
a good biblical spirit-filled path.
(50:58):
Nick
Speaker 2 (50:59):
Yeah, I would agree with that in the sense that
um I would say that even having that sense of
like needing to take care of yourself and your family
physically and having that be a concern, I would say
that that is a God-given response to real danger. So,
I, I don't want you to feel bad about that,
and I think it, it's an appropriate response and it
(51:20):
sounds like you're, you're doing the right things. But again, yeah,
anxiety is not something, not a place where you want
to live, even in the midst of this, and a
verse that comes to my mind, I'm teaching Nehemiah chapter 4.
I was assigned a passage to teach this coming Sunday
at a a church I'm gonna be speaking at, and
uh there's this incredible, you know, situation there where Nehemiah
(51:41):
and his men are actually threatened, their physical safety is threatened.
And Nehemiah's message to them, first of all, Nehemiah prays
to the Lord, and he talks to the Lord about
the situation, but then he talks to his men as well,
and what he says to them, he says, do not
be afraid of them, but remember the Lord. And so
it's kind of the idea of understanding that uh all
(52:01):
of us, you know, we have safety and security in
the Lord.
But all of us, there's going to come a day,
you know, and it's in the Lord's hands when that
day will come, when our lives here will end or
or those sorts of things. So I think that all
of us need to be um taking our eyes off
of anxious things and putting them on the Lord who
(52:24):
gives ultimate security and safety.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
What do you think, Renee?
I, I appreciate the, the, I appreciate that so much,
and I'm gonna, I'm gonna kind of, I know we only,
you only have a few minutes left, but I'm going
to expand a bit. I'm gonna also ask one other thing.
One of the things that in prayer that we've been
praying over this entire situation is um the individual who
has
(52:48):
committed the offense. They've been praying for him. He's not
a believer as far as we know, and his behavior
and actions have displayed that he's not a believer. And
yet we're praying for him and I'm finding it really
hard to pray for him.
Hm.
Yeah. And, and let me just say, Renee, you don't
have to be the person who's praying for him. You
(53:10):
might just go to the Lord and say, Lord, give
me strength and peace in the midst of this very
difficult situation. Um, I don't feel that you have to
do what other people are doing, you need to do
in the presence of the Lord, in peace and safety
for you and your family, what's right in your situation.
So, so again, sometimes you're not the right person to
(53:32):
be praying about somebody else, particularly somebody who may have, um,
have harmed you or or or we don't know the details,
or whatever it may be. So again, don't place upon
yourself requirements that the scripture text does not, there's not
a command that you have to do this. Um, you
might just at this point be just resting in the
Lord and gaining strength for the difficulty of this moment.
(53:55):
Nick, would you play, pray, I should say for Renee.
Got about a couple of minutes
left.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
Heavenly Father, we lift up Renee to you and her
family in this situation. I can tell that there's a
real desire to honor you in what they're doing and
how they're walking through this. And so Lord, I pray
that you would take away any unnecessary anxiety, any inappropriate
uh rumination over, uh, the, the fear that they have.
But Lord, I thank you that uh you have led
them to take appropriate steps, and we do pray for
(54:23):
your divine protection over their family. And we pray for
this person in question who who has committed these acts. Lord,
we do pray.
That he would come under conviction, Lord, that he would
turn to you, that he would repent of those things,
and ultimately, Lord, we pray for his salvation and for,
for transformation of his heart and his life. We pray
that in Jesus' name. Amen.
Speaker 1 (54:44):
Amen. Renee, thank you for calling in today here on
Pastor's Perspective, and if everybody listening and watching could keep
Renee and her family in your prayers too, that'd be great.
Thanks for joining us today. We are just about out
of time here on the program. We're gonna archive today's
episode on Facebook, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify in case
you missed any part of it or just want to
hear it again or you want to share it with
(55:05):
your friends. Ed Stetzer, Dean of the Talbot School of
Theology at Biola University, great to see you again. Thanks
for coming in.
And I remember you can hear Ed here on Kwave
Saturday mornings at 9 o'clock. And Nick, Katie, our special guest,
the pastor of Whitefields Community Church in Longmont, Colorado. If
you guys are going to Longmont, Colorado on vacation this summer,
(55:27):
that's the church to go to on a Sunday. Nick,
it was great having you, man. Thanks for having me.
Nick's amazing. Yes, and he'll be back next week as well. So, uh, Nick,
great to meet you, Ed, good to see you, and
we'll talk to you next time here on Pastor's Perspective.
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