August 4, 2025 • 56 mins
Pastors' Perspective is a one-hour call-in program where listeners can call in and get answers to questions about the Bible, Christianity, family, and life. The program is live Monday through Friday from 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM Pacific. You can call 888-564-6173 to ask your questions.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:17):
Well, hello, it is that time of day once again
when we open up the phone lines to allow you
to call in and ask questions you might have about
the Bible, the Christian faith, and you'll get a live
answer from a real person, not AI, not some, well,
then again, Phil Metzger might be using AI. I think
that's how he, uh, creates all his sermons nowadays. Did
(00:39):
you know about?
That John Huang? No, I'm, I'm totally joking. I'm totally joking.
Welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm Brian Perez here with my
former friend Phil Metzger. Uh, he used to like me
until right now. And, uh, John Huang, Phil's the pastor
of Calvary San Diego. John is the pastor of Christ
Point City Church in Huntington Beach. Welcome, guys. Well,
Speaker 2 (00:59):
I will say Phil is one of the nicest guys
on the planet Earth, and so I'm sure there's so
much grace and mercy and goodness,
Speaker 1 (01:07):
yes.
No, not for Brian Perez. There are exceptions. I think
that was funny, Brian, and you know somebody will write
and say, wait, what is that that's because that's the
only part they heard, so they didn't hear me say
I'm kidding. Well, glad to be with you guys. Good
to see you both. Yeah, it's been a while. How
(01:28):
long has it been since you've been here? Oh
Speaker 2 (01:29):
gosh, many moons and
Orbits around yeah yeah so it really is great to
be back and it's good to see familiar faces and
to be with friends and to to dive into just
everything that happens on this great program. How's the church
plant going? It's been really sweet. It's um definitely kept
(01:49):
my wife and me busy, um, but I'll tell you
one of the things that has been, um, probably the
the biggest highlight for me is being back um in
that place where
You know, it's just, you just have to trust every day,
you know, it's just going back on those passages, you know, like, um,
(02:10):
you know, unless the Lord builds the house, they labor
in vain that build it or it's not by my
nor by power but by my spirit says the Lord
and I.
Um, and, and as much as I love, um, you know,
serving as a pastor in an established church, you know,
I think there's a, uh, you know, and Phil, I'm
sure you could relate to this too. I think that
there's enough missionary history in our lives where we just
(02:32):
miss those moments where you're just kind of freaked out
during the day, like, how is the rent gonna be
paid today? Like, where are the resources coming from? And
it just drives us to our knees and.
And just to be in that place of trust and
dependence and I, and I'm just blown away. I, it's
just been so great to just see how God has
(02:52):
given us favor in the city of Huntington Beach, um,
and God's just continued to open up, um, just really
cool doors of opportunity to be able to share the
word in different places and um and it's just like
the good old missionary days again, just watching the Lord
do stuff real time.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Phil, I'm sure you'd agree. Oh yeah, those are, those
are good hard times. Uh, I feel like, you know,
having been on the church planting side and then now
kind of in the like replanting.
Boy, oh boy, they're both have their own challenges, and
so I'm like my hands are sweaty hearing you talk
about church planting again because I, I just, it's, it's,
it's ingrained, but those are good times, man. I'm glad
(03:33):
it's going well. Yeah, well,
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I'll tell you what, this was not how I forecasted
my life or foresaw my life going in this season,
but I mean the Lord just knew and
You know, and one thing for me is you just
realize church planting in your 50s is way different than
your 20s. On one hand, you feel a bit wiser
because you just, you know, just remember all the stupid
(03:55):
things you did as a young church planner, but on
the other hand, you just realize, man, um, you just
don't have the same strength and energy that we did
when we were in our 20s and so the recovery
time takes a lot longer and um but there's grace
for that too.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Amen. So people can find out more about Christ Point
City Church
at
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Christocity.com. All
Speaker 1 (04:19):
right, check that out. If you're looking for a church
home and in the Huntington Beach area, if you're down
in San Diego, CalvarySD.com is how you can find out
about Pastor Phil Metzger's church. All right, 888-564-6173 is the
number to call, and, uh, we'll get to your calls
as they come in. First, let me read a question
that was sent in online or maybe a few, because
(04:39):
there's so many ways you can get your questions to us.
It's not just the phone.
Anymore, but that is still the preferred method, because we
love chatting with you guys. But you can go to
the Pastor's perspective Facebook page and use Messenger to get
your question to us, or you can DM us on
the pastor's perspective Instagram. You can go to Kwave.com, look
for the pastor's perspective page, fill out the form there,
(05:00):
or if you're watching on Facebook, YouTube, or Instagram, you
can scan that QR code there, and that'll take you
right to the pastor's perspective page on kwave.com, so that
you can fill out the form and get your question
to us.
That's what Lisa did, and she writes, What happens to
aborted babies? Provided this child's parents go to heaven, will
they see or be aware of their child? Do you
(05:24):
think the baby is aware of her earthly parents? Is
there anything in the Bible that addresses the situation? Phil,
what do you say to Lisa?
Um, all good questions, Lisa, and for probably a whole
bunch of people that have these questions, what happens to
babies who are aborted? Well, in terms of like, is
there a specific, like, is there a Bible verse that says,
you know, this is what happens? The answer is no.
(05:46):
We do have a passage in the Old Testament when David,
the king's child died.
And prior to the death of his child, he was
really distraught, really like just overwhelmed with like crying out
to God, God, if there's anything that can be done,
any kind of healing, anything at all. And then the
attendants discovered that the baby had died, and they're, of course,
(06:08):
afraid to tell King David because if he's this distraught
over the illness of his baby, what's he gonna be
like when he finds out that the baby has passed away?
And actually it was surprising to them that he kind
of washed himself, kind of regained his, his strength and
his composure.
And he made the statement that even though I can't,
you know, my baby's not gonna come back to me,
(06:29):
one day I'm gonna go and be with my baby.
And so, this is like the one verse where we,
we have a really clear sense that, that babies go
to be with the Lord in heaven, and that's gonna
include all babies, right? So, uh, you know,
Uh, died in, in, in womb, aborted, um, you know, born, stillborn.
(06:49):
There's so many different scenarios, and everyone that I don't mention,
there's gonna be people listening that are hurt by that,
and I apologize. Uh, the truth of the matter is
there's so many different ways in which tragedy strikes people.
The good news is this, the baby is with the Lord. Now, um,
you know, again, does the Bible speak about the importance
of life? Certainly it does, and so on and so forth. However,
(07:11):
I'm kind of just like focusing in on this person,
on Lisa's question, um, do I think the baby is
aware of her earthly parents? I, I'd have no way
of being able to give any good
Anything good on that, there's just nothing to that. The
idea that a baby in heaven is not still a
baby is certainly, I mean, there's not a bunch of babies,
you know, in heaven right now, you know, looking for
(07:33):
a caretaker, uh, these are, these are obviously, you know, alert, aware, sentient,
totally present people, but what they know and don't know.
Uh, you know, I just, I wouldn't be in a
place to, I, I, I'll give it to you, John.
What do you think? Do they know? Do they know
their parents?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Well, I, I, I will say, Phil, that was a
great answer, and I, and I wholeheartedly agree, um, you know,
obviously there are people that that hold to different um
opinions on this topic, but I, I, I think though
that that that passage that you reference there in 2
Samuel is a really good one.
Um, to be able to, to just see, at least
(08:11):
lean into the position that we believe that children that
are aborted, um, you know, babies that die in their
infancy that they go to be with the Lord.
Um, and you know, for me, I, my understanding of
when we're all in the presence of Jesus is there
is going to be an awareness, a full awareness of
(08:31):
those that we're with, you know, I think about when, um,
Jesus told the story of the rich man in Lazarus.
Lazarus died and he was able to identify Abraham or
on the mount of transfiguration.
You know, um, there when Peter James and John were
on the mountain and Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus,
(08:52):
they were able to recognize him. You know, it wasn't
like they had cameras back then and, you know, and
to be able to say, well, that just looks like
this photograph that I have of Moses and Elijah, but
they were able to recognize them and so, um, especially
in heaven because it's a reunion of family.
You know, as God's redeemed people that we get together
(09:13):
and so, um, I, I, I believe, um, it it, yeah,
there's there's lots of questions in terms of like what
the relationships are gonna look like in heaven, but the
one thing that we can say is that in Christ, um,
we're gonna be um family together and um my my
understanding of scriptures will be able to, to recognize and
(09:34):
identify the people that we're with.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
That's great. Lisa, thank you for sending in your question
on the Kwave.com pastor's perspective page. And now let's go
to the phones and um
Uh, yes, let's go to the phones. 888-564-6173 is the
number to call, and what I was going to say
is maybe we'll get to some more of those questions
(09:56):
that were sent in online later, but right now, I
want to get to the phones, beginning with Sabine, who is, uh,
watching us on Facebook in South Carolina. So let's wave
to Sabine. Hi there, how can we help you today?
Um,
I'm good. And um my question is, why does God
(10:17):
spend all his time for us, but he doesn't spend
time for himself. Whoa, that that's a great question. How
old are you, Sabine?
7. John Wong.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Wow,
Speaker 1 (10:31):
that is a. You weren't prepared for that one. No,
Speaker 2 (10:33):
that was, that's a great question, Sabine. And, and here's
the simple answer, and this is again my my attempt
at answering this really profound question and it comes down
to the fact that God loves us.
You know the Bible tells us that God is love,
and the Bible also reveals to us a God that
(10:53):
loves his creation and you know that his best creation.
Um, the thing that he made was humans, you, me,
your family, all the people that is in the world.
God loves us and you know how much he loves us.
He loves us so much that he sent his son
Jesus into the world to die on the cross so
(11:15):
that we could believe in him and he rose again
from the dead, and we can now have this forever
relationship with him. And so here's the beautiful thing about God,
when you ask the question.
Well, why doesn't God also, you know, um, spend his
time on himself? Well, one, we can say that God,
(11:36):
because he is love, he's gonna always be others focused,
but also in his love, guess what? By him loving you,
he also is overjoyed.
And so his joy gets is big and his joy
shines bright when he is actually spending his time loving
(12:01):
you and me. So it's think of it this way,
think about stuff, maybe it's your it's your favorite person
or
It it's your favorite activity and the more time you
spend with that person and you just wanna make that
person happy because you love that person so much or
you spend so much time in that hobby or that
(12:23):
activity because you love it so much. Have you noticed
that the more you give the happier you are?
So by giving to others, by loving others, you find
because of the love that you have for them in
your heart that you're actually adding to your happiness to
your pleasure to your joy and in the.
(12:44):
Same way, God, by loving you, loving the people that
he made his happiness is brighter, his joy is more radiant.
And so he actually gets to accomplish both.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Love that, Phil.
Um, Sabine, you're awesome. If you can see me on Facebook,
I'm waving at you. You're amazing. What a question. What
a great answer, John. Deep, deep question. Sabine, do me
a favor. Once we're done, I want you to ask
your mom or dad, whoever's near you, helping you make
this call.
Do they like thinking about themselves or thinking about you?
(13:22):
Ask them which one they get more joy from. Do
they like to think about themselves or do they like
to think, I'll bet. If you ask mom or dad
or grandma or grandpa, they're gonna say to you, it
is their greatest joy is looking at you and watching
you and seeing you and thinking about you.
And so it's, it's not that they don't love themselves,
(13:46):
it's just that they are, they find so much joy
in thinking and looking at you. So ask your mom
and dad or your grandma and grandpa that later. I, uh,
it'll be interesting to see what they say to you, OK?
I love it.
OK, so
Speaker 2 (14:02):
glad you called.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
You're a sweetheart, Sabine. Thanks for calling in today. We
hope to hear from you again, OK.
Thank you and you're welcome.
You're awesome. All right. 888-564-6173 is the number that Sabine called,
and you guys can call in to ask your questions.
We've got Phil Metzger and John Huang hanging out in
(14:25):
the studio for the next hour. 888-564-6173.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
That was really
Speaker 1 (14:31):
sweet. Should we just stop the show now? I mean,
it's just like, let's just, let's.
No, we have time to fill, unfortunately. We, it's not
that easy. All right, Mark in Val Vista, California has
a follow-up question from something he heard on yesterday's program.
So Mark, what did we say yesterday? And keep in
mind that the two guys that were here yesterday are
not here today, so that's why I'm asking for a
(14:51):
little bit of clarification on what it was that you heard.
OK. Well, um, thank you for taking my phone call.
And it was, um, uh, somebody, I think his name
was like JJ or something like that. But to get
to the point, he had said that, um,
Um, when Jesus comes back, he's gonna be the same
(15:13):
way that he left and
Um, reading Revelation, um, I see Jesus as, you know,
with the fire in his eyes and the, the sword
of his mouth and, and that, you know, vision of
him in Revelation. So, I've been listening to you guys
(15:34):
for like 40 years. I just thought that that was like,
I'll call in and see what you guys think about that.
All right, Phil Metzger. Yeah, sure.
Yeah, I think, I think you had two good buddies
of mine on yesterday. It was that, uh, Ed and Nick,
I believe, yeah, so, um, good two good guys. Mark,
it's a good question that you're asking, and I, I
(15:54):
could see where.
I, I could see where like it could get a
little bit maybe jumbled. So, let me just read to
you from Acts chapter 1 verse 11, where we read,
Men of Galilee, why are you standing here? These were
angels speaking to the disciples. Jesus, who has been taken
up from you into heaven, will someday return in the
same way that you saw him go.
(16:16):
And so this is where we are, this is, it's
not the idea. This is where we understand that in
the same way that Jesus, he ascended, one day he
is going to descend and come back down here to
the earth. Now, when you get into the book of Revelation,
you're talking about how that there's a lot more that's
at play, and that's totally true. There's so many more
things that are happening. So,
(16:38):
I don't want you to think of, and again, I
think I can speak for those two, those are two friends,
and I know where their thought process would probably be
on this. Nobody's saying that like the, the, the environment
and the circumstance and all is exactly the same. What
we are saying is that the angels there in the
scriptures are saying, as you saw him go up, he
will be coming back down. That's the essence of likeness.
(17:01):
It doesn't mean that the circumstances of the
The world will be the same. Certainly, we know that
in the book of Revelation, the world will be a
much different place, um, in, in some regard. But, uh,
the person of Jesus, the, the person who went up
will also be coming back. And in that way, I
believe they would be talking about this.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
John. No, that, that's spot on. Um, the only thing
I would add, I mean, the, the passage that Phil
referenced there in Acts chapter one, you know, if you,
if you go up to verse 9.
Um, after Jesus had commissioned his apostles, it says that he, uh,
Luke tells us he was taken up before their very eyes,
(17:41):
and a cloud hid him from their sight, and then
as they were looking intently up into the sky, so
that the emphasis is on sight here.
And then in verse 11, men of Galilee, they said,
why do you stand here looking? So there's the looking
part again into the sky. This same Jesus who has
(18:03):
been taken from you into heaven will come back in
the same way you have seen.
There's the emphasis on looking again, seeing him go into heaven. So, um,
Phil is right, um, not so much the details of
um the events that would unfold the return of Christ,
but the fact that this same Jesus is gonna come
(18:25):
back visibly and physically. And in fact, you know, even
if you go to the book of Revelation, I think
a good cross reference for this passage is chapter 1
verse 7.
And they're in Revelation 1:7, um, because this one scripture
really sets the theme of this book. It says, look,
he talking about Jesus is coming with the clouds, again,
(18:51):
compare that with Acts one, and every eye will see him.
Even those who pierced him in all the peoples of
the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be. Amen.
And Jesus stressed this point even on the at the
all of a discord, Matthew 24, when he said, as
lightning flashes from east to west, so will the coming
(19:12):
of the.
Son of Manby, in other words, that it is going
to not be a secret coming, but at the second coming,
it will be a very visible and physical return of Jesus.
And so, um, that is what that passage in Acts
chapter 1 is stressing.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Very good. Mark, thank you for your phone call today
here on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number. Let's talk
to Dennis, who is listening to the Kwave app in
Mission Viejo, California. Welcome, Dennis to Pastor's Perspective.
Fine, thank you for uh having me on. I appreciate that. Yeah,
(19:49):
thanks for calling. We appreciate that.
Right. Um, my question is, uh, and it's probably been
asked before, but I, I want to ask it again
for not just myself, but for a lot of people
that I know, uh, that are in fellowship with me about, uh, the, the,
(20:12):
uh uh uh a woman holding the senior pastoral ship
in a church.
Uh, everybody is pretty familiar with the late, that recent
high profile church that went through it. They got, the church, uh,
was this fellowship, I guess they call it. And, uh,
(20:36):
and they asked for reinstatement, I think it was through
the Dallas Theological Seminary, uh, Baptist Theological Seminary, excuse me.
And uh they, they were turned down. And uh I,
I had the feeling that if you, you know, if
you talk to 20 people, 10 will say, yeah, that,
(20:58):
you know, that it's biblical that you cannot hold a female,
cannot hold the senior role in a, in a church,
and then the other 10 say, well, this is a
different time and
And, uh, place and, uh, uh, there's no problem with it.
(21:20):
So it's always been for me, uh, like a split
camp question and I, I wanted to get your perspective
on that. All right, John, we'll start with you.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Well, I will say that that topic um is obviously
one that has been discussed, um, often um among some
really good serious um and Jesus loving Bible teachers and
scholars and um and I would even, I would even
think that among my circle of friends, you know, um,
(21:53):
many of which are pastors.
And people that I know who seriously think about scripture
and they have a deep love for Jesus, um, we
might find ourselves disagreeing on these points as well. Um,
but let me just say up front that this issue,
I'm not saying it's not important because it is because,
you know, um, churches really think about how they're going
(22:15):
to structure um their leadership.
Um, on the basis of how they understand scripture, um,
on this, but having said that, this is not an
issue that we would call, um, an essential issue of
the gospel that, you know, that if you take one
ground or the other, that's gonna label you either a
heretic or orthodox. Um, there, you know, like I mentioned, um,
(22:39):
these two, camps, you know, to give theological framework.
To it um the people that would say that women
cannot be elders, um, and they'll, um, you know, associate
elder with pastor. They are generally known as complementarians,
Speaker 1 (22:56):
complementarians, only men can do it.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Yeah, complimentarians or complementarians and uh and then those on
the other side are egalitarian,
Speaker 1 (23:05):
egalitarians, that's how I
remember.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Yes, so the pun is there.
Um, and so, um, but if you listen and, and
you have like meaningful dialogues with people in both camps, um,
you can appreciate and understand how people reach their conclusions. Um,
I just remember that the younger version of me that
was a bit more dogmatic and, um, and I, I
(23:31):
pretty much held on to whatever camp I learned from.
Um, which was traditionally more of a complementarian camp. Um, I,
I not only dismissed the idea of women pastors, but
there was this pride in me, and I'm not saying
that this is everybody, but I'm just confessing for me,
there was this pride in me where I found myself
(23:51):
even demonizing people that disagreed.
Disagreed with my positions. And um but then there came
a point as I'm growing in my relationship with the
Lord that I actually sat with people that are serious
Bible students and they're ministers of the gospel and just
to hear how they've landed um on a more of
an egalitarian position.
(24:13):
Um, I, I personally have walked away. I, I don't
necessarily agree with that position. I personally hold um to
male eldership in the church. Um, I think that how
people use the term pastor, um, I think that um
we're we're seeing that term being used in different ways
(24:33):
in some churches where that I think is opened up
some conversations, but when it comes to elders, I personally
lean towards male eldership.
But I also lean towards the fact that men and
women could hold the office of deacons, um, but then
I've got friends that's like, oh no, no, no, it's
like the gospel, um, um, changes everything, you know, and
(24:55):
they talk about before the fall, um, man and woman
were both given the same mission with the same responsibilities
and the same functions. It wasn't until after the fall
that there was that order, um, and then Jesus then.
Comes and he brings us into the family of God
(25:16):
where there is no more male, female, Jew, Greek, slave free,
but we're all one in Christ and then they take
that passage and they apply it into ministry and I
could listen to that and guess what? I could appreciate
and um and I could actually learn from how people
are working through these passages um to to land there
(25:36):
and so.
So I, I personally, um, I, I find myself more
gracious and more open to dialogue. I still have my
own personal views on this, um, because as a pastor,
we have to structure our leadership in a particular way, right?
So there's no room for me to just be um
(25:57):
an an armchair quarterback like I have to really think
through these things.
But I want to be gracious with people that might
hold to a different viewpoint. But when it comes to
the Trinity, when it comes to the fact that there
is only one God, when it comes to the fact
that Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is a person,
he's God, the death, the resurrection of Jesus, the return
(26:19):
of Christ, those are the non-negotiables, and that's where we
have to stay grounded. But on these issues, I think
that there should be some room for some.
Gracious, open dialogue, but still feeling like you don't have
to compromise on your viewpoints, and you could have strong viewpoints,
you could have strong feelings, but let's be gracious with
one another.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Phil got about 2 minutes or so.
Well, can't hear you.
Sorry, my fault. I muted just so I wasn't annoying. OK, uh, I'll,
I'll be as quick as I can here. Um, yeah,
just I, great answer. I think we need to, you know,
be understand that most churches have what we call, we
(26:59):
have convictions, right? Um, there's convictions that we just can't,
we just don't negotiate. Those are our theological convictions of like,
like what is the gospel, what's primary?
But then within that we have kind of like cultural convictions.
Certain churches have a certain practice. Like the example that
Dennis was giving, um, I'm not sure he meant Dallas
Theological or Baptist Seminary or whatnot, but it was a
(27:20):
Baptist church that, uh, had been kind of removed and
it wasn't for the senior pastor but just the, the
use of the term pastor towards a woman.
And so this is purely uh what we call an
ecclesiological decision. That's a church decision. That is not, you, you, you,
you have a hard time making a case that that's
the only way the Bible speaks. It does not. If
(27:42):
this issue was so clear, we wouldn't have two sides.
I promise you the all the issues as it relates
to the gospel, it's all really clear. We're, we're not
even questioning those things. So the fact that there's like diversity,
we need to be clear to not
To not let a church's conviction on a cultural issue
like what role women would have in the church, define
(28:03):
whether we believe they're a good biblical church or not. Listen,
if you wanna talk about a church that's liberal and
totally like not biblical at all, that happens on all levels.
Men leaders, women leaders, that happens every.
Everywhere. But as it relates to just women in leadership,
it's not necessarily a biblical, like you can prove in
the Bible at this point. Both have good arguments, and
(28:24):
we just need to give people space to be who
they are. So, I would never let this divide any,
a church, if there's no reason for that at all.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yeah, and, and I just want to add on to
what Phil said, because that was so good, um, and
this should, this should also not deter us from our
understanding of the inerrancy of scripture.
You know, a lot of times when people disagree with
our theological, um, you know, convictions or positions, um, the,
especially the secondary stuff, you know, we then we immediately
(28:52):
have this thing of charging people to say, oh, you
don't believe in the inert of scripture. Well, we, we
can have differing opinions like on this topic, it could
be on women as pastors or the age of the
earth and creation.
Um, but just because we disagree doesn't mean that one
of those sides are denying the doctrine of inerrancy. We
(29:13):
gotta remember our interpretations are not inherent, but the scriptures
themselves are inerrant.
And so we need to make sure we make those distinctions.
Am I fighting for my interpretation to be inerrant, or
am I fighting for the scriptures themselves to be inerrant?
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Dennis, thank you for your phone call today on Pastor's Perspective.
We're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be
back with more of your questions. What do you want
to ask John?
Huang and Phil Metzger, grab an open line. 888-564-6173 is
the number 888-564-6173. If you're watching online on Facebook, YouTube,
(29:51):
or Instagram, thanks for watching, but start participating here by
calling us 888-564-6173.
(30:19):
OK, we are back here on Pastor's Perspective.
888-564-6173 is the number to call. I'm Brian Perez here
with John Huang from Christ Point City Church in Huntington Beach,
and Phil Metzger from Calvary San Diego, here for the
next 25 minutes to answer the questions you have about
(30:39):
the Lord, about the
Bible, the Holy Spirit. Give us a call 888-564-6173. Let's
begin our, uh, segment with Al, who is in Rialto,
listening on FM 107.9 K wave. Al, there were some
earthquakes in Rialto this morning, I hear.
Yes, it was about, they said it was a 6.2. Wow,
(31:03):
that's crazy. Did you feel it?
Oh yeah, we felt it. Wow, I didn't, but I'm
in Orange County, so anyway, what's your question for us today? Yes, uh,
can a person lose their salvation?
Now, why do you ask this question?
Uh, I was curious. OK, so there's no specific reason,
(31:25):
particular reason, particular person you're thinking of or something?
Well, um, I was reading the Bible where it says,
Many are called few are chosen. The harvests are many.
The workers are few.
OK. Judging will be, judgment will begin in the house
(31:45):
of the Lord. Yeah.
Phil, what would you say to Al? Yeah, thanks, Al.
Glad you guys are OK in Rialto. So, um, I'm not, I,
I don't like the language that we use today when
we talk about this because we
We really illuminate maybe the most important factor when we're
talking about salvation. This is a free gift from God.
(32:08):
So when we start using language like losing, by the way, I,
you didn't come up with that. That's been around a
long time. It's not you, your question I don't like,
it's the idea, because we are, we immediately jump into
man's responsibility. And if you look at the Old and
New Testament,
The one thing we see that's very clear in terms
(32:28):
of what man brought to the table as it relates
to our salvation, was the problem. We brought the sin.
We're the reason that we need salvation. So when we
start talking about losing something that God gives freely, I, I,
I'm not a big fan of that language, and I
don't mean just personally. I don't think that the Bible
is a big fan of that language. Now, the scriptures
(32:51):
make the case, and it's really important to say this.
That we are to abide in Jesus, abide in me
and I in you. That language is very clear in
the scripture that to be a Christian is about abiding
in Jesus. It's walking in Jesus. But let's make no mistake,
one of the clearest expressions of abiding in Jesus that
(33:13):
you will practice day to day for the rest of
your life is repentance.
That is the most realistic expression of what it means
to abide in Jesus that you and I will ever, uh,
relate to. So, can I lose the thing that God
is gifting by His grace through faith? I'm not a
(33:33):
big fan of that language. I do believe that when
a person truly has come into faith, that they belong
to Jesus, that no one can snatch out of the
Father's hand, those who belong to him.
I believe that with all of my heart. The question,
can you lose your salvation could be better put like this.
Was that person born again? That, that, that's the question. Not,
(33:54):
were they born again, and then, and then did God
take that away, because that speaks of God as being
an unloving God. But I would question.
Did that person know Christ? Were they born again? That
I think we should be questioning, but I don't know
that we need to question whether God would take something
that he freely gives. I hope that makes a little
bit of sense. John.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
No, I, I thought that was a brilliant answer. I
think it's beautiful, um, and, and when I, when I
say that it's brilliant, it's not, it's not coming from
a heart or an attitude of saying, cha ching, great
win there for Phil Metzger.
But it was so gracious and it's it and it's
so beautiful because it leans into the gospel um because
(34:40):
Phil is absolutely right. The point here is a matter
of assurance and and so when you look at the
scriptures talking about one of the things that God wants
his covenant people, his children, to be sure about.
Is God's um ability to keep those that are his
(35:02):
and for us in our relationship with Jesus that we
are safe and secure because Christ redeemed us so that
we could have a forever life with God and I'm
so glad you brought the John 15 pass.
uh, Phil, because that that's my go to passage as well,
because when people ask, gosh, how, how can I know
that I know that I'm saved? It comes to abiding
(35:24):
in Jesus. Abiding in Jesus is where we can be
absolutely sure that we have assurance of our salvation.
And uh some people might look at that and say, well,
um you're you're preaching a works gospel. No, we're talking
about an identity statement we're not talking about what we
do for Jesus, we're talking about who we are in Jesus.
(35:46):
So when we are in Christ Jesus and that life
is being lived out on a day to day basis.
Hey, listen, yes, we will stumble and fall. Yes, we
will fail and falter, but Jesus is our vine. We
are the branches, and as long as we're connected to him, um,
the Bible tells us we are safe and secure in
(36:07):
his grace. So that was really great, um, and beautiful, Phil,
great response.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Al, thank you for calling from Rialto. 888-564-6173 is our
number and I will go to Riverside. Here is Sharon.
Hi there, Sharon, thanks for calling Pastor's Perspective.
Hi, and thank you for answering my call. OK. Um,
the reason I'm calling cause I have a daughter, I
raised her in church. So the question I, I'm, I
(36:36):
am asking was, um,
I hear about, you know, um, some testimonies and stuff
when they, when people have died and gone to hell
and from friends saying that um they come back and
they said, I think there's Christians, there's pastors in there
in hell. And I'm the question is, what is their
attitudes to make them, to get them to be there
(36:57):
because my daughter, I raised her, I was listening to
other testimonies, especially the one just previously. So, um, it's
similar to that, you know, like with the
pastor has said that we have to repent or we
have to or to know if we're truly a Christian. Well,
my daughter was raised in the Lord, but something happened
(37:18):
when I got married. I left her with my mother
and my stepfather, and my stepfather put her. I was
married for 3.5 years. My stepfather put her in a shelter,
and so it disrupted her mind and.
She acts differently. Sometimes she acts like a Christian, and
most of the times he doesn't. It's like as if
there's the devil I'm living with. I, I'm not joking.
Stuff comes out of her mouth that. So what's your
(37:42):
main question for us today, Sharon?
Well, I'm wondering if she would go to heaven, you know,
because
Um, just like that one pastor said, you know, um,
once they always saved, you know, but, um, uh, it depends, but, um, yeah,
her attitude has changed, and I go, cause I keep
(38:04):
telling her repent, repent, repent.
Yeah, and you told our call screeners something you used
a Bible verse in reference. I was hoping you would
get to that part there because the Bible says he
who began a good work in you will will hold on,
he who began a good work in you will hold on,
complete it. I almost said repeat it. It's like it's
not repeat, it's complete. We'll complete it. OK, so what
(38:26):
Sharon is asking is.
If that's the case, how come there's some Christians who
don't wind up going to heaven? I guess that's basically
what she's trying to get out. John, what do you
say?
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Well, there were multiple things that came out of that question. Um,
so let, let me just try to um give you
some real quick bullet points. Number one,
Every person who is trusting in Jesus for salvation will
go to heaven, OK? So every person who is a
(38:56):
believer in Christ, um, they will go to heaven. Now
to the question.
Um, why then do I hear people give testimonies about
some people in hell? Well, let me, let me first
say please lean into scripture and not into people's stories
and testimonies and definitely don't let YouTube and the Internet
(39:19):
shape your theology about God. Jesus said in John 17:17
speaking about God's word that that is the standard of truth,
so we have to lean into scripture.
So then how do we understand people that are in church?
Will everybody that are church members go to heaven? And
the answer is no. Um, you know, many years ago,
(39:41):
One of the church fathers, Saint Augustine, he used to
describe the church as the visible church and the invisible
church and what he meant by that is on Sunday
mornings when we go to um a a collective gathering
that is the visible church, right? So you've got a
church like Calvary San Diego, you got a church like
Christ Point City.
Church, you've got a church like Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa,
(40:04):
and all the people that attend on a weekly basis,
that is the visible church. We can count those warm
bodies in those chairs, but Augustine also talked about the
invisible church, and that is that not every person that
shows up at church is an authentic true believer in Jesus.
And, and, and only God knows who those real believers are.
(40:27):
And so for us as pastors, as, as leaders are,
our mission is to keep on preaching the word, not
only for the salvation of the loss but also for
the sanctification.
Of disciples and people that are in church but also
um to minister intend um you know um to God's
(40:48):
people and that's why even something like the Lord's supper
communion is a great opportunity where we get to actually
talk with people in our congregations and to um make
sure that they have a clear understanding of the gospel
that they know who Jesus is and that salvation is
only by grace through faith in him.
Um, but that passage also in Philippians 1:6 that he
(41:12):
being confident of this very thing, that he who began
a good work in you, that's God beginning a good
work in everyone who is trusting in Jesus, he will
complete it, talking about that work, not only of our salvation.
From the penalty of sin, but also us being saved
(41:33):
from the power of sin, that's sanctification, and also looking
ahead when we're saved from the presence of sin, that's
our future glorification. God's gonna complete that work. And so
like Phil said earlier, that is one of those assurance
passages that we can rest in as believers in
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Jesus. Phil Metzger.
Yeah, great answer. I, I don't, I honestly, Sharon, don't
wanna answer to that question that you're exactly having other
than to say, I, I really wanna recommend, highly recommend.
That you and, you know, maybe if, if you're, if
you're still in, if you're married, just for your own sake. Like,
(42:12):
I hope you're at a good church, and I hope
you could have like good counsel from leaders there because
there's certain things said that I, I'm not concerned as, uh, like,
I know you have concern for your daughter. I want
you to know, I also have concern for you, not
about your salvation, but just about where you're at in life,
that you're getting good, healthy people around you to support you.
(42:33):
To pray for you, to pray with you, maybe in
small groups or whatnot in your church. Um, it sounds
like things have not, that maybe things have been pretty
rough in different seasons of life, and now you're kind
of looking at it and going, but are they, are
they OK? And for a lot of people, it's just
not how life works. They don't look back and just say, yeah,
I'm fine and I'm gonna make you feel that I'm OK.
(42:55):
There's a lot of water under bridges in our lives,
and people get hurt, and so you might wanna work
with somebody through that and let God use somebody in
your life to bring some healing and um uh and
I'll be praying that that's what can happen, but I
think as it relates to salvation.
You know, I, I love this like, uh, you know,
as John was talking about, not everybody is, you know,
(43:15):
the invisible and the visible, and I, I gotta be honest,
I pastor a church, but I'm thankful to God, man.
I just want my name written in the Lamb's book
of life. And so I'm praying for my family as well,
but I'm, I'm also wanting to just be present and
abiding in the Lord now, and I, and I'll pray
that same thing for you.
All right, Sharon, thank you for your phone call today
on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number to call. We're
(43:40):
gonna be here for about, uh, 12 more minutes or so. 888-564-6173,
and there is still time for you to get your
question answered. Here is Louise, who is calling in from
San Bernardino, listening on FM 107.9 K wave. Hello, Louise.
Hello, thank you for taking my call. I wasn't going,
I didn't know I was going live. It's a touchy subject. Um,
(44:04):
my adult daughter, she's been saved. She's been a Christian
all her life since she was a child. And just
a few years ago, she said she'd been struggling, but
she told me recently that um she doesn't like men,
that she's interested in women now.
And that she, I'm sorry, it's hard. Yeah, we understand.
(44:24):
How old is she, Louise? Um, she's 27. OK. And
she said she's fought this for 3 years, and she
felt like God gave her peace, that he said it's
OK to be who you are, and she felt like
she had permission from God now for this.
And so now I, I always hear about the Bible
that it's wrong, right? And um but I love my
(44:48):
daughter and all God was, all God did was tell me,
just hug her and love her. Don't say anything else
when she told me. And that's where I'm at now,
and we haven't talked about it for a few months now.
And so I just wanna know what God says truly
says about it and how you handle that with your,
your child.
All right, Phil.
Yeah, as uh, as it relates to how do you
(45:09):
handle that with your child, it sounds to me like
you've handled things really beautifully. And, you know, I think
everybody's gonna have grace in, in, in, in their life
and their way. And I know that there's a lot
of people that would love to be able to answer
this and tell you, you need to make sure she
knows this, that and the other. She knows that she's wrong,
she knows this, and I'm sure you get that pressure
(45:31):
or even feel that pressure. Um, but I'd like to
Maybe encourage you in that it sounds like your daughter
is very clear on knowing what the Bible says. Now,
as it relates to her saying, she prayed and God
gave her peace, I, I think we're gonna have disagreement
on
Who gave her peace, where she might feel like that
(45:54):
came from God. Um, I might suggest that that just
came from, she's tired of fighting this battle, and it's
just more comfortable to just do what she feels is best. Uh,
but regardless, I'm not talking to your daughter, I'm talking
to you. I think your reaction to her was very gracious. Um, again,
like I said, people are gonna wanna make sure, you know,
she needs to know what is the truth. Sounds like
(46:15):
she's been raised and knows, you know, the scriptures and
knows who knows Jesus and knows the word of God.
Um, I think relationship in these moments is the most
important thing, and that is to keep relationship. So I'm
a big believer in keeping relationship, loving your daughter, um,
loving is not the same as agreeing on every level. Gosh,
God so loved the world, but he doesn't, he doesn't
(46:36):
agree with us.
Uh, so love and agreement do not speak the same
language necessarily. Just know this. You can still love your daughter,
and even if you don't agree with the choices or
if God doesn't agree with her choices, he still loves
her and you can still love her. John Huang?
Yeah,
Speaker 2 (46:53):
I, you know, one thing that we just want um
to encourage you with is you're not alone. Um, you know,
this is something that is um become more and more
prevalent for many families.
And um and so I think that one of the
things that the devil likes to do is um to
(47:14):
to isolate people and to make them feel like whatever
problem they're having to deal with at home, this is
something that is very a unique problem to them. This
isn't something that happens in a good healthy Christian family and,
and he isolates and and and if the devil can
push a parent or parents into a corner.
And to live in those thoughts, then they end up
(47:37):
not only getting their souls beat up, but then they're
no good to their children. And um so I just
want to encourage you, you know, whenever we um go
to war against the forces of darkness, take the fight
into the light.
And so the Bible tells us in 1 John 1:5
that God is light and in him is no darkness
(47:58):
at all and so um with that, you know, I
know that there are um you know, many groups that
meet in fact there's probably a group that meets at
your church with families and parents and if they, if they're.
Isn't I I'd encourage you to just find a good
Bible teaching church and find out if there are support
groups for parents that are in similar situations because I
(48:21):
think that that's gonna be really helpful for you to
be united with other parents praying for our children. That
is the greatest weapon that um that we have right
now is prayer.
And um and so having parents that we can pray
with and having a church that is supporting you through this,
and um and constantly being reminded of the gospel and
(48:44):
not only God's love for you, but also for your daughter.
But also I encourage you to get educated, um, you know, um, I,
I think another, another way that the devil gets into
our head is we live in the world of subjective
feelings and assumptions and we start thinking that.
You know, um, if you know, um, you know that
(49:06):
we might end up start thinking wrong thoughts about God
and how he feels about our children and us and
so we just need to be educated with good solid, um,
you know, voices that that are scholars and they've got
pastoral hearts and they've thought through the issue and they
know how to speak through stuff informatively but also graciously.
(49:26):
Um, I know people like Sean McDowell has really thought
through these issues, but you know, I, I'm curious if
your daughter would even read a book, um, you know, um,
when you were talking about your daughter, it reminded me
of a of a of a person named Jackie Hill
Perry and Jackie Hill Perry wrote a book years ago
called Gay Girl, Good God, and it's her story.
(49:48):
Um, she right now is, um, just a, a huge
influencer for God's kingdom, but she tells her story about
her struggles, but, um, but also the redemptive power of Jesus.
Another person that I would encourage you to read is
um a person named Sam Albury.
(50:08):
And uh and he's written some books on this topic.
In fact, he wrote one book that is entitled Why
does God Care Who I Sleep with? And um and
so Sam Albury would also be um another good voice
because um these are people that not only have thought
through these issues, but you know, they've also worked through
(50:30):
the struggles.
And um and I and and and just being able
to be reminded that you're not alone, that there's people
that can rally around you and um and especially if
your daughter who claims to be a Christian, it would
be so amazing for her to get plugged into a
good Bible teaching church and for her to be able
to have mature Christians that she'd be willing to talk
this stuff out with because that's all a part of
(50:52):
discipleship and a part of our sanctification and um.
So that's where my heart is, but I, I, I love,
I love what Phil was doing in terms of like
approaching this pastorally and, and hopefully you'll have more of
that as, as God just connects you with people that
can pastor you and your family through this.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
What do
you think of what you heard, Louise?
Um, yeah, I, I mean, it's everything that I feel
in my heart. My fish wants to say other things,
but it is, I just feel God just says love, love, love,
no matter what, just love and pray, and I got
to pray about her going into church cause she think
(51:30):
she's angry with God right now.
So, um, but I know God, God is good and
he can change that. I just wanted direction, you know,
because you hear all these bad things about it and
what God, you know, hates and, and it just was
confusing me and I just, I don't wanna show hate.
It's about relationship of one of you
Speaker 2 (51:48):
said. Yeah, well, just remember, um, just remember like same
sex attraction, homosexuality, all of that.
Um, you know, when, when that is brought to the
cer um, you know, to, to the table in conversation, it,
it almost seems like it hijacks every other conversation thinking
that that is the only sin that God is grieved by, right? That, that,
(52:10):
that he hates. Um, I'm telling you, there's a whole
lot of sins that heterosexual people are committing right now
and uh and just even the things that we consider
to be the most vile, did you know that God, um,
ranks pride as his chief top sin that he hates.
And um that was the thing that got Lucifer kicked
(52:32):
out of heaven, you know, and, and so I think
that it's important for us to not just get so
specific on one sin.
Um, thinking that all other sins are minor issues. Jesus
went to the cross for your daughter the same way
he went to the cross for you, and he went
to the cross for Phil. He went to the cross
for Brian, he went to the cross for me because
(52:53):
we're all broken and messed up and we're all like
sheep without a shepherd, and Jesus came as the chief
shepherd to bring us back home and that's through faith
in Christ. So I just want to encourage you as
you love your daughter.
Remember, love her, but not at the expense of truth.
And so I think that if there's a pattern for
us to learn, it's what Jesus sets forth in the
(53:15):
gospel that he comes with grace and truth. And so
um the love that Jesus showed, it wasn't capitulation, it
wasn't saying hey I love you so much I'm just gonna.
Just, you know, tolerate what you do, um, but we
recognize the things that the Lord says, hey, this is disobedience,
but at the same time, we learn how to love them, um,
(53:39):
not deeper and deeper into themselves and into their senses,
but we gotta learn how to love them to Jesus.
And that's where we need the guidance of the Holy Spirit,
that's what we need to pray, and that's why we
need people around us that know scripture and they.
And they're able to walk with us so that we
can be able to stay settled and grounded in God's truth,
but also to practically know how to love our family.
(54:01):
Phil
Speaker 1 (54:02):
Metzger, I'll give you about a minute to answer this question.
Do you think Christians put such a big emphasis on
same sex, same-sex attraction, homosexuality, etc. because, I mean, it's
just this egregious sin. It is so egregious that God
wiped out two entire cities because of what was going
on there.
So is that why Christians view it as, oh, this
(54:24):
must be like the unpardonable sin, or at least the
second most unpardonable sin?
Right. That might be what some Christians present, but that's
really even, uh, and I, I'm glad for how you
were phrasing that, Brian, that, you know, that even what
happened in the Old Testament as it relates to that,
is not simply, uh, because of same-sex attraction. So we
(54:44):
got to be really clear on that, right? And so,
I think it's, you know, especially today, and just cut
me off when it's time cause I don't hear it.
Uh, the, the idea that like we, there is a
bit of a reaction as well among many Christians where
we see so much being kind of pressed in culturally
upon us, and we're like fighting this tide of like,
my gosh, it feels like it's everywhere and it's everything.
(55:05):
And we need to not overreact to what the world
is pressing and just keep ourselves very grounded in the
word of God, the love of God, grace and truth,
as John was pointing out about Jesus, grace and truth. So,
so yeah, we just, it, it is not the worst.
It's just the one that we are like currently really, uh,
infatuated with blaming people for, but certainly pride is far
(55:27):
more dangerous. For sure. Louise, thanks for your phone call
really quick.
The two books that John Huang mentioned, Gay Girl, Good God,
by Jackie Hill Perry and Why Does God Care Who
I Sleep with by Sam Albury. You can find those
wherever you get your books, and we are out of
time for today's episode of Pastor's Perspective, which will soon
be archived on Facebook, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. Phil Metzger,
(55:52):
thank you for joining us. John Huang, good to see you, man.
Hope to see you again soon. We'll talk to you
guys tomorrow here on Pastor's Perspective.
Well, hello, it is that time of day once again
when we open up the phone lines to allow you
to call in and ask questions you might have about
the Bible, the Christian faith, and you'll get a live
answer from a real person, not AI, not some, well,
then again, Phil Metzger might be using AI. I think
that's how he, uh, creates all his sermons nowadays. Did
(00:39):
you know about?
That John Huang? No, I'm, I'm totally joking. I'm totally joking.
Welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm Brian Perez here with my
former friend Phil Metzger. Uh, he used to like me
until right now. And, uh, John Huang, Phil's the pastor
of Calvary San Diego. John is the pastor of Christ
Point City Church in Huntington Beach. Welcome, guys. Well,
Speaker 2 (00:59):
I will say Phil is one of the nicest guys
on the planet Earth, and so I'm sure there's so
much grace and mercy and goodness,
Speaker 1 (01:07):
yes.
No, not for Brian Perez. There are exceptions. I think
that was funny, Brian, and you know somebody will write
and say, wait, what is that that's because that's the
only part they heard, so they didn't hear me say
I'm kidding. Well, glad to be with you guys. Good
to see you both. Yeah, it's been a while. How
(01:28):
long has it been since you've been here? Oh
Speaker 2 (01:29):
gosh, many moons and
Orbits around yeah yeah so it really is great to
be back and it's good to see familiar faces and
to be with friends and to to dive into just
everything that happens on this great program. How's the church
plant going? It's been really sweet. It's um definitely kept
(01:49):
my wife and me busy, um, but I'll tell you
one of the things that has been, um, probably the
the biggest highlight for me is being back um in
that place where
You know, it's just, you just have to trust every day,
you know, it's just going back on those passages, you know, like, um,
(02:10):
you know, unless the Lord builds the house, they labor
in vain that build it or it's not by my
nor by power but by my spirit says the Lord
and I.
Um, and, and as much as I love, um, you know,
serving as a pastor in an established church, you know,
I think there's a, uh, you know, and Phil, I'm
sure you could relate to this too. I think that
there's enough missionary history in our lives where we just
(02:32):
miss those moments where you're just kind of freaked out
during the day, like, how is the rent gonna be
paid today? Like, where are the resources coming from? And
it just drives us to our knees and.
And just to be in that place of trust and
dependence and I, and I'm just blown away. I, it's
just been so great to just see how God has
(02:52):
given us favor in the city of Huntington Beach, um,
and God's just continued to open up, um, just really
cool doors of opportunity to be able to share the
word in different places and um and it's just like
the good old missionary days again, just watching the Lord
do stuff real time.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Phil, I'm sure you'd agree. Oh yeah, those are, those
are good hard times. Uh, I feel like, you know,
having been on the church planting side and then now
kind of in the like replanting.
Boy, oh boy, they're both have their own challenges, and
so I'm like my hands are sweaty hearing you talk
about church planting again because I, I just, it's, it's,
it's ingrained, but those are good times, man. I'm glad
(03:33):
it's going well. Yeah, well,
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I'll tell you what, this was not how I forecasted
my life or foresaw my life going in this season,
but I mean the Lord just knew and
You know, and one thing for me is you just
realize church planting in your 50s is way different than
your 20s. On one hand, you feel a bit wiser
because you just, you know, just remember all the stupid
(03:55):
things you did as a young church planner, but on
the other hand, you just realize, man, um, you just
don't have the same strength and energy that we did
when we were in our 20s and so the recovery
time takes a lot longer and um but there's grace
for that too.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Amen. So people can find out more about Christ Point
City Church
at
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Christocity.com. All
Speaker 1 (04:19):
right, check that out. If you're looking for a church
home and in the Huntington Beach area, if you're down
in San Diego, CalvarySD.com is how you can find out
about Pastor Phil Metzger's church. All right, 888-564-6173 is the
number to call, and, uh, we'll get to your calls
as they come in. First, let me read a question
that was sent in online or maybe a few, because
(04:39):
there's so many ways you can get your questions to us.
It's not just the phone.
Anymore, but that is still the preferred method, because we
love chatting with you guys. But you can go to
the Pastor's perspective Facebook page and use Messenger to get
your question to us, or you can DM us on
the pastor's perspective Instagram. You can go to Kwave.com, look
for the pastor's perspective page, fill out the form there,
(05:00):
or if you're watching on Facebook, YouTube, or Instagram, you
can scan that QR code there, and that'll take you
right to the pastor's perspective page on kwave.com, so that
you can fill out the form and get your question
to us.
That's what Lisa did, and she writes, What happens to
aborted babies? Provided this child's parents go to heaven, will
they see or be aware of their child? Do you
(05:24):
think the baby is aware of her earthly parents? Is
there anything in the Bible that addresses the situation? Phil,
what do you say to Lisa?
Um, all good questions, Lisa, and for probably a whole
bunch of people that have these questions, what happens to
babies who are aborted? Well, in terms of like, is
there a specific, like, is there a Bible verse that says,
you know, this is what happens? The answer is no.
(05:46):
We do have a passage in the Old Testament when David,
the king's child died.
And prior to the death of his child, he was
really distraught, really like just overwhelmed with like crying out
to God, God, if there's anything that can be done,
any kind of healing, anything at all. And then the
attendants discovered that the baby had died, and they're, of course,
(06:08):
afraid to tell King David because if he's this distraught
over the illness of his baby, what's he gonna be
like when he finds out that the baby has passed away?
And actually it was surprising to them that he kind
of washed himself, kind of regained his, his strength and
his composure.
And he made the statement that even though I can't,
you know, my baby's not gonna come back to me,
(06:29):
one day I'm gonna go and be with my baby.
And so, this is like the one verse where we,
we have a really clear sense that, that babies go
to be with the Lord in heaven, and that's gonna
include all babies, right? So, uh, you know,
Uh, died in, in, in womb, aborted, um, you know, born, stillborn.
(06:49):
There's so many different scenarios, and everyone that I don't mention,
there's gonna be people listening that are hurt by that,
and I apologize. Uh, the truth of the matter is
there's so many different ways in which tragedy strikes people.
The good news is this, the baby is with the Lord. Now, um,
you know, again, does the Bible speak about the importance
of life? Certainly it does, and so on and so forth. However,
(07:11):
I'm kind of just like focusing in on this person,
on Lisa's question, um, do I think the baby is
aware of her earthly parents? I, I'd have no way
of being able to give any good
Anything good on that, there's just nothing to that. The
idea that a baby in heaven is not still a
baby is certainly, I mean, there's not a bunch of babies,
you know, in heaven right now, you know, looking for
(07:33):
a caretaker, uh, these are, these are obviously, you know, alert, aware, sentient,
totally present people, but what they know and don't know.
Uh, you know, I just, I wouldn't be in a
place to, I, I, I'll give it to you, John.
What do you think? Do they know? Do they know
their parents?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Well, I, I, I will say, Phil, that was a
great answer, and I, and I wholeheartedly agree, um, you know,
obviously there are people that that hold to different um
opinions on this topic, but I, I, I think though
that that that passage that you reference there in 2
Samuel is a really good one.
Um, to be able to, to just see, at least
(08:11):
lean into the position that we believe that children that
are aborted, um, you know, babies that die in their
infancy that they go to be with the Lord.
Um, and you know, for me, I, my understanding of
when we're all in the presence of Jesus is there
is going to be an awareness, a full awareness of
(08:31):
those that we're with, you know, I think about when, um,
Jesus told the story of the rich man in Lazarus.
Lazarus died and he was able to identify Abraham or
on the mount of transfiguration.
You know, um, there when Peter James and John were
on the mountain and Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus,
(08:52):
they were able to recognize him. You know, it wasn't
like they had cameras back then and, you know, and
to be able to say, well, that just looks like
this photograph that I have of Moses and Elijah, but
they were able to recognize them and so, um, especially
in heaven because it's a reunion of family.
You know, as God's redeemed people that we get together
(09:13):
and so, um, I, I, I believe, um, it it, yeah,
there's there's lots of questions in terms of like what
the relationships are gonna look like in heaven, but the
one thing that we can say is that in Christ, um,
we're gonna be um family together and um my my
understanding of scriptures will be able to, to recognize and
(09:34):
identify the people that we're with.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
That's great. Lisa, thank you for sending in your question
on the Kwave.com pastor's perspective page. And now let's go
to the phones and um
Uh, yes, let's go to the phones. 888-564-6173 is the
number to call, and what I was going to say
is maybe we'll get to some more of those questions
(09:56):
that were sent in online later, but right now, I
want to get to the phones, beginning with Sabine, who is, uh,
watching us on Facebook in South Carolina. So let's wave
to Sabine. Hi there, how can we help you today?
Um,
I'm good. And um my question is, why does God
(10:17):
spend all his time for us, but he doesn't spend
time for himself. Whoa, that that's a great question. How
old are you, Sabine?
7. John Wong.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Wow,
Speaker 1 (10:31):
that is a. You weren't prepared for that one. No,
Speaker 2 (10:33):
that was, that's a great question, Sabine. And, and here's
the simple answer, and this is again my my attempt
at answering this really profound question and it comes down
to the fact that God loves us.
You know the Bible tells us that God is love,
and the Bible also reveals to us a God that
(10:53):
loves his creation and you know that his best creation.
Um, the thing that he made was humans, you, me,
your family, all the people that is in the world.
God loves us and you know how much he loves us.
He loves us so much that he sent his son
Jesus into the world to die on the cross so
(11:15):
that we could believe in him and he rose again
from the dead, and we can now have this forever
relationship with him. And so here's the beautiful thing about God,
when you ask the question.
Well, why doesn't God also, you know, um, spend his
time on himself? Well, one, we can say that God,
(11:36):
because he is love, he's gonna always be others focused,
but also in his love, guess what? By him loving you,
he also is overjoyed.
And so his joy gets is big and his joy
shines bright when he is actually spending his time loving
(12:01):
you and me. So it's think of it this way,
think about stuff, maybe it's your it's your favorite person
or
It it's your favorite activity and the more time you
spend with that person and you just wanna make that
person happy because you love that person so much or
you spend so much time in that hobby or that
(12:23):
activity because you love it so much. Have you noticed
that the more you give the happier you are?
So by giving to others, by loving others, you find
because of the love that you have for them in
your heart that you're actually adding to your happiness to
your pleasure to your joy and in the.
(12:44):
Same way, God, by loving you, loving the people that
he made his happiness is brighter, his joy is more radiant.
And so he actually gets to accomplish both.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Love that, Phil.
Um, Sabine, you're awesome. If you can see me on Facebook,
I'm waving at you. You're amazing. What a question. What
a great answer, John. Deep, deep question. Sabine, do me
a favor. Once we're done, I want you to ask
your mom or dad, whoever's near you, helping you make
this call.
Do they like thinking about themselves or thinking about you?
(13:22):
Ask them which one they get more joy from. Do
they like to think about themselves or do they like
to think, I'll bet. If you ask mom or dad
or grandma or grandpa, they're gonna say to you, it
is their greatest joy is looking at you and watching
you and seeing you and thinking about you.
And so it's, it's not that they don't love themselves,
(13:46):
it's just that they are, they find so much joy
in thinking and looking at you. So ask your mom
and dad or your grandma and grandpa that later. I, uh,
it'll be interesting to see what they say to you, OK?
I love it.
OK, so
Speaker 2 (14:02):
glad you called.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
You're a sweetheart, Sabine. Thanks for calling in today. We
hope to hear from you again, OK.
Thank you and you're welcome.
You're awesome. All right. 888-564-6173 is the number that Sabine called,
and you guys can call in to ask your questions.
We've got Phil Metzger and John Huang hanging out in
(14:25):
the studio for the next hour. 888-564-6173.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
That was really
Speaker 1 (14:31):
sweet. Should we just stop the show now? I mean,
it's just like, let's just, let's.
No, we have time to fill, unfortunately. We, it's not
that easy. All right, Mark in Val Vista, California has
a follow-up question from something he heard on yesterday's program.
So Mark, what did we say yesterday? And keep in
mind that the two guys that were here yesterday are
not here today, so that's why I'm asking for a
(14:51):
little bit of clarification on what it was that you heard.
OK. Well, um, thank you for taking my phone call.
And it was, um, uh, somebody, I think his name
was like JJ or something like that. But to get
to the point, he had said that, um,
Um, when Jesus comes back, he's gonna be the same
(15:13):
way that he left and
Um, reading Revelation, um, I see Jesus as, you know,
with the fire in his eyes and the, the sword
of his mouth and, and that, you know, vision of
him in Revelation. So, I've been listening to you guys
(15:34):
for like 40 years. I just thought that that was like,
I'll call in and see what you guys think about that.
All right, Phil Metzger. Yeah, sure.
Yeah, I think, I think you had two good buddies
of mine on yesterday. It was that, uh, Ed and Nick,
I believe, yeah, so, um, good two good guys. Mark,
it's a good question that you're asking, and I, I
(15:54):
could see where.
I, I could see where like it could get a
little bit maybe jumbled. So, let me just read to
you from Acts chapter 1 verse 11, where we read,
Men of Galilee, why are you standing here? These were
angels speaking to the disciples. Jesus, who has been taken
up from you into heaven, will someday return in the
same way that you saw him go.
(16:16):
And so this is where we are, this is, it's
not the idea. This is where we understand that in
the same way that Jesus, he ascended, one day he
is going to descend and come back down here to
the earth. Now, when you get into the book of Revelation,
you're talking about how that there's a lot more that's
at play, and that's totally true. There's so many more
things that are happening. So,
(16:38):
I don't want you to think of, and again, I
think I can speak for those two, those are two friends,
and I know where their thought process would probably be
on this. Nobody's saying that like the, the, the environment
and the circumstance and all is exactly the same. What
we are saying is that the angels there in the
scriptures are saying, as you saw him go up, he
will be coming back down. That's the essence of likeness.
(17:01):
It doesn't mean that the circumstances of the
The world will be the same. Certainly, we know that
in the book of Revelation, the world will be a
much different place, um, in, in some regard. But, uh,
the person of Jesus, the, the person who went up
will also be coming back. And in that way, I
believe they would be talking about this.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
John. No, that, that's spot on. Um, the only thing
I would add, I mean, the, the passage that Phil
referenced there in Acts chapter one, you know, if you,
if you go up to verse 9.
Um, after Jesus had commissioned his apostles, it says that he, uh,
Luke tells us he was taken up before their very eyes,
(17:41):
and a cloud hid him from their sight, and then
as they were looking intently up into the sky, so
that the emphasis is on sight here.
And then in verse 11, men of Galilee, they said,
why do you stand here looking? So there's the looking
part again into the sky. This same Jesus who has
(18:03):
been taken from you into heaven will come back in
the same way you have seen.
There's the emphasis on looking again, seeing him go into heaven. So, um,
Phil is right, um, not so much the details of
um the events that would unfold the return of Christ,
but the fact that this same Jesus is gonna come
(18:25):
back visibly and physically. And in fact, you know, even
if you go to the book of Revelation, I think
a good cross reference for this passage is chapter 1
verse 7.
And they're in Revelation 1:7, um, because this one scripture
really sets the theme of this book. It says, look,
he talking about Jesus is coming with the clouds, again,
(18:51):
compare that with Acts one, and every eye will see him.
Even those who pierced him in all the peoples of
the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be. Amen.
And Jesus stressed this point even on the at the
all of a discord, Matthew 24, when he said, as
lightning flashes from east to west, so will the coming
(19:12):
of the.
Son of Manby, in other words, that it is going
to not be a secret coming, but at the second coming,
it will be a very visible and physical return of Jesus.
And so, um, that is what that passage in Acts
chapter 1 is stressing.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Very good. Mark, thank you for your phone call today
here on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number. Let's talk
to Dennis, who is listening to the Kwave app in
Mission Viejo, California. Welcome, Dennis to Pastor's Perspective.
Fine, thank you for uh having me on. I appreciate that. Yeah,
(19:49):
thanks for calling. We appreciate that.
Right. Um, my question is, uh, and it's probably been
asked before, but I, I want to ask it again
for not just myself, but for a lot of people
that I know, uh, that are in fellowship with me about, uh, the, the,
(20:12):
uh uh uh a woman holding the senior pastoral ship
in a church.
Uh, everybody is pretty familiar with the late, that recent
high profile church that went through it. They got, the church, uh,
was this fellowship, I guess they call it. And, uh,
(20:36):
and they asked for reinstatement, I think it was through
the Dallas Theological Seminary, uh, Baptist Theological Seminary, excuse me.
And uh they, they were turned down. And uh I,
I had the feeling that if you, you know, if
you talk to 20 people, 10 will say, yeah, that,
(20:58):
you know, that it's biblical that you cannot hold a female,
cannot hold the senior role in a, in a church,
and then the other 10 say, well, this is a
different time and
And, uh, place and, uh, uh, there's no problem with it.
(21:20):
So it's always been for me, uh, like a split
camp question and I, I wanted to get your perspective
on that. All right, John, we'll start with you.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Well, I will say that that topic um is obviously
one that has been discussed, um, often um among some
really good serious um and Jesus loving Bible teachers and
scholars and um and I would even, I would even
think that among my circle of friends, you know, um,
(21:53):
many of which are pastors.
And people that I know who seriously think about scripture
and they have a deep love for Jesus, um, we
might find ourselves disagreeing on these points as well. Um,
but let me just say up front that this issue,
I'm not saying it's not important because it is because,
you know, um, churches really think about how they're going
(22:15):
to structure um their leadership.
Um, on the basis of how they understand scripture, um,
on this, but having said that, this is not an
issue that we would call, um, an essential issue of
the gospel that, you know, that if you take one
ground or the other, that's gonna label you either a
heretic or orthodox. Um, there, you know, like I mentioned, um,
(22:39):
these two, camps, you know, to give theological framework.
To it um the people that would say that women
cannot be elders, um, and they'll, um, you know, associate
elder with pastor. They are generally known as complementarians,
Speaker 1 (22:56):
complementarians, only men can do it.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Yeah, complimentarians or complementarians and uh and then those on
the other side are egalitarian,
Speaker 1 (23:05):
egalitarians, that's how I
remember.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Yes, so the pun is there.
Um, and so, um, but if you listen and, and
you have like meaningful dialogues with people in both camps, um,
you can appreciate and understand how people reach their conclusions. Um,
I just remember that the younger version of me that
was a bit more dogmatic and, um, and I, I
(23:31):
pretty much held on to whatever camp I learned from.
Um, which was traditionally more of a complementarian camp. Um, I,
I not only dismissed the idea of women pastors, but
there was this pride in me, and I'm not saying
that this is everybody, but I'm just confessing for me,
there was this pride in me where I found myself
(23:51):
even demonizing people that disagreed.
Disagreed with my positions. And um but then there came
a point as I'm growing in my relationship with the
Lord that I actually sat with people that are serious
Bible students and they're ministers of the gospel and just
to hear how they've landed um on a more of
an egalitarian position.
(24:13):
Um, I, I personally have walked away. I, I don't
necessarily agree with that position. I personally hold um to
male eldership in the church. Um, I think that how
people use the term pastor, um, I think that um
we're we're seeing that term being used in different ways
(24:33):
in some churches where that I think is opened up
some conversations, but when it comes to elders, I personally
lean towards male eldership.
But I also lean towards the fact that men and
women could hold the office of deacons, um, but then
I've got friends that's like, oh no, no, no, it's
like the gospel, um, um, changes everything, you know, and
(24:55):
they talk about before the fall, um, man and woman
were both given the same mission with the same responsibilities
and the same functions. It wasn't until after the fall
that there was that order, um, and then Jesus then.
Comes and he brings us into the family of God
(25:16):
where there is no more male, female, Jew, Greek, slave free,
but we're all one in Christ and then they take
that passage and they apply it into ministry and I
could listen to that and guess what? I could appreciate
and um and I could actually learn from how people
are working through these passages um to to land there
(25:36):
and so.
So I, I personally, um, I, I find myself more
gracious and more open to dialogue. I still have my
own personal views on this, um, because as a pastor,
we have to structure our leadership in a particular way, right?
So there's no room for me to just be um
(25:57):
an an armchair quarterback like I have to really think
through these things.
But I want to be gracious with people that might
hold to a different viewpoint. But when it comes to
the Trinity, when it comes to the fact that there
is only one God, when it comes to the fact
that Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is a person,
he's God, the death, the resurrection of Jesus, the return
(26:19):
of Christ, those are the non-negotiables, and that's where we
have to stay grounded. But on these issues, I think
that there should be some room for some.
Gracious, open dialogue, but still feeling like you don't have
to compromise on your viewpoints, and you could have strong viewpoints,
you could have strong feelings, but let's be gracious with
one another.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Phil got about 2 minutes or so.
Well, can't hear you.
Sorry, my fault. I muted just so I wasn't annoying. OK, uh, I'll,
I'll be as quick as I can here. Um, yeah,
just I, great answer. I think we need to, you know,
be understand that most churches have what we call, we
(26:59):
have convictions, right? Um, there's convictions that we just can't,
we just don't negotiate. Those are our theological convictions of like,
like what is the gospel, what's primary?
But then within that we have kind of like cultural convictions.
Certain churches have a certain practice. Like the example that
Dennis was giving, um, I'm not sure he meant Dallas
Theological or Baptist Seminary or whatnot, but it was a
(27:20):
Baptist church that, uh, had been kind of removed and
it wasn't for the senior pastor but just the, the
use of the term pastor towards a woman.
And so this is purely uh what we call an
ecclesiological decision. That's a church decision. That is not, you, you, you,
you have a hard time making a case that that's
the only way the Bible speaks. It does not. If
(27:42):
this issue was so clear, we wouldn't have two sides.
I promise you the all the issues as it relates
to the gospel, it's all really clear. We're, we're not
even questioning those things. So the fact that there's like diversity,
we need to be clear to not
To not let a church's conviction on a cultural issue
like what role women would have in the church, define
(28:03):
whether we believe they're a good biblical church or not. Listen,
if you wanna talk about a church that's liberal and
totally like not biblical at all, that happens on all levels.
Men leaders, women leaders, that happens every.
Everywhere. But as it relates to just women in leadership,
it's not necessarily a biblical, like you can prove in
the Bible at this point. Both have good arguments, and
(28:24):
we just need to give people space to be who
they are. So, I would never let this divide any,
a church, if there's no reason for that at all.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yeah, and, and I just want to add on to
what Phil said, because that was so good, um, and
this should, this should also not deter us from our
understanding of the inerrancy of scripture.
You know, a lot of times when people disagree with
our theological, um, you know, convictions or positions, um, the,
especially the secondary stuff, you know, we then we immediately
(28:52):
have this thing of charging people to say, oh, you
don't believe in the inert of scripture. Well, we, we
can have differing opinions like on this topic, it could
be on women as pastors or the age of the
earth and creation.
Um, but just because we disagree doesn't mean that one
of those sides are denying the doctrine of inerrancy. We
(29:13):
gotta remember our interpretations are not inherent, but the scriptures
themselves are inerrant.
And so we need to make sure we make those distinctions.
Am I fighting for my interpretation to be inerrant, or
am I fighting for the scriptures themselves to be inerrant?
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Dennis, thank you for your phone call today on Pastor's Perspective.
We're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be
back with more of your questions. What do you want
to ask John?
Huang and Phil Metzger, grab an open line. 888-564-6173 is
the number 888-564-6173. If you're watching online on Facebook, YouTube,
(29:51):
or Instagram, thanks for watching, but start participating here by
calling us 888-564-6173.
(30:19):
OK, we are back here on Pastor's Perspective.
888-564-6173 is the number to call. I'm Brian Perez here
with John Huang from Christ Point City Church in Huntington Beach,
and Phil Metzger from Calvary San Diego, here for the
next 25 minutes to answer the questions you have about
(30:39):
the Lord, about the
Bible, the Holy Spirit. Give us a call 888-564-6173. Let's
begin our, uh, segment with Al, who is in Rialto,
listening on FM 107.9 K wave. Al, there were some
earthquakes in Rialto this morning, I hear.
Yes, it was about, they said it was a 6.2. Wow,
(31:03):
that's crazy. Did you feel it?
Oh yeah, we felt it. Wow, I didn't, but I'm
in Orange County, so anyway, what's your question for us today? Yes, uh,
can a person lose their salvation?
Now, why do you ask this question?
Uh, I was curious. OK, so there's no specific reason,
(31:25):
particular reason, particular person you're thinking of or something?
Well, um, I was reading the Bible where it says,
Many are called few are chosen. The harvests are many.
The workers are few.
OK. Judging will be, judgment will begin in the house
(31:45):
of the Lord. Yeah.
Phil, what would you say to Al? Yeah, thanks, Al.
Glad you guys are OK in Rialto. So, um, I'm not, I,
I don't like the language that we use today when
we talk about this because we
We really illuminate maybe the most important factor when we're
talking about salvation. This is a free gift from God.
(32:08):
So when we start using language like losing, by the way, I,
you didn't come up with that. That's been around a
long time. It's not you, your question I don't like,
it's the idea, because we are, we immediately jump into
man's responsibility. And if you look at the Old and
New Testament,
The one thing we see that's very clear in terms
(32:28):
of what man brought to the table as it relates
to our salvation, was the problem. We brought the sin.
We're the reason that we need salvation. So when we
start talking about losing something that God gives freely, I, I,
I'm not a big fan of that language, and I
don't mean just personally. I don't think that the Bible
is a big fan of that language. Now, the scriptures
(32:51):
make the case, and it's really important to say this.
That we are to abide in Jesus, abide in me
and I in you. That language is very clear in
the scripture that to be a Christian is about abiding
in Jesus. It's walking in Jesus. But let's make no mistake,
one of the clearest expressions of abiding in Jesus that
(33:13):
you will practice day to day for the rest of
your life is repentance.
That is the most realistic expression of what it means
to abide in Jesus that you and I will ever, uh,
relate to. So, can I lose the thing that God
is gifting by His grace through faith? I'm not a
(33:33):
big fan of that language. I do believe that when
a person truly has come into faith, that they belong
to Jesus, that no one can snatch out of the
Father's hand, those who belong to him.
I believe that with all of my heart. The question,
can you lose your salvation could be better put like this.
Was that person born again? That, that, that's the question. Not,
(33:54):
were they born again, and then, and then did God
take that away, because that speaks of God as being
an unloving God. But I would question.
Did that person know Christ? Were they born again? That
I think we should be questioning, but I don't know
that we need to question whether God would take something
that he freely gives. I hope that makes a little
bit of sense. John.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
No, I, I thought that was a brilliant answer. I
think it's beautiful, um, and, and when I, when I
say that it's brilliant, it's not, it's not coming from
a heart or an attitude of saying, cha ching, great
win there for Phil Metzger.
But it was so gracious and it's it and it's
so beautiful because it leans into the gospel um because
(34:40):
Phil is absolutely right. The point here is a matter
of assurance and and so when you look at the
scriptures talking about one of the things that God wants
his covenant people, his children, to be sure about.
Is God's um ability to keep those that are his
(35:02):
and for us in our relationship with Jesus that we
are safe and secure because Christ redeemed us so that
we could have a forever life with God and I'm
so glad you brought the John 15 pass.
uh, Phil, because that that's my go to passage as well,
because when people ask, gosh, how, how can I know
that I know that I'm saved? It comes to abiding
(35:24):
in Jesus. Abiding in Jesus is where we can be
absolutely sure that we have assurance of our salvation.
And uh some people might look at that and say, well,
um you're you're preaching a works gospel. No, we're talking
about an identity statement we're not talking about what we
do for Jesus, we're talking about who we are in Jesus.
(35:46):
So when we are in Christ Jesus and that life
is being lived out on a day to day basis.
Hey, listen, yes, we will stumble and fall. Yes, we
will fail and falter, but Jesus is our vine. We
are the branches, and as long as we're connected to him, um,
the Bible tells us we are safe and secure in
(36:07):
his grace. So that was really great, um, and beautiful, Phil,
great response.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Al, thank you for calling from Rialto. 888-564-6173 is our
number and I will go to Riverside. Here is Sharon.
Hi there, Sharon, thanks for calling Pastor's Perspective.
Hi, and thank you for answering my call. OK. Um,
the reason I'm calling cause I have a daughter, I
raised her in church. So the question I, I'm, I
(36:36):
am asking was, um,
I hear about, you know, um, some testimonies and stuff
when they, when people have died and gone to hell
and from friends saying that um they come back and
they said, I think there's Christians, there's pastors in there
in hell. And I'm the question is, what is their
attitudes to make them, to get them to be there
(36:57):
because my daughter, I raised her, I was listening to
other testimonies, especially the one just previously. So, um, it's
similar to that, you know, like with the
pastor has said that we have to repent or we
have to or to know if we're truly a Christian. Well,
my daughter was raised in the Lord, but something happened
(37:18):
when I got married. I left her with my mother
and my stepfather, and my stepfather put her. I was
married for 3.5 years. My stepfather put her in a shelter,
and so it disrupted her mind and.
She acts differently. Sometimes she acts like a Christian, and
most of the times he doesn't. It's like as if
there's the devil I'm living with. I, I'm not joking.
Stuff comes out of her mouth that. So what's your
(37:42):
main question for us today, Sharon?
Well, I'm wondering if she would go to heaven, you know,
because
Um, just like that one pastor said, you know, um,
once they always saved, you know, but, um, uh, it depends, but, um, yeah,
her attitude has changed, and I go, cause I keep
(38:04):
telling her repent, repent, repent.
Yeah, and you told our call screeners something you used
a Bible verse in reference. I was hoping you would
get to that part there because the Bible says he
who began a good work in you will will hold on,
he who began a good work in you will hold on,
complete it. I almost said repeat it. It's like it's
not repeat, it's complete. We'll complete it. OK, so what
(38:26):
Sharon is asking is.
If that's the case, how come there's some Christians who
don't wind up going to heaven? I guess that's basically
what she's trying to get out. John, what do you
say?
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Well, there were multiple things that came out of that question. Um,
so let, let me just try to um give you
some real quick bullet points. Number one,
Every person who is trusting in Jesus for salvation will
go to heaven, OK? So every person who is a
(38:56):
believer in Christ, um, they will go to heaven. Now
to the question.
Um, why then do I hear people give testimonies about
some people in hell? Well, let me, let me first
say please lean into scripture and not into people's stories
and testimonies and definitely don't let YouTube and the Internet
(39:19):
shape your theology about God. Jesus said in John 17:17
speaking about God's word that that is the standard of truth,
so we have to lean into scripture.
So then how do we understand people that are in church?
Will everybody that are church members go to heaven? And
the answer is no. Um, you know, many years ago,
(39:41):
One of the church fathers, Saint Augustine, he used to
describe the church as the visible church and the invisible
church and what he meant by that is on Sunday
mornings when we go to um a a collective gathering
that is the visible church, right? So you've got a
church like Calvary San Diego, you got a church like
Christ Point City.
Church, you've got a church like Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa,
(40:04):
and all the people that attend on a weekly basis,
that is the visible church. We can count those warm
bodies in those chairs, but Augustine also talked about the
invisible church, and that is that not every person that
shows up at church is an authentic true believer in Jesus.
And, and, and only God knows who those real believers are.
(40:27):
And so for us as pastors, as, as leaders are,
our mission is to keep on preaching the word, not
only for the salvation of the loss but also for
the sanctification.
Of disciples and people that are in church but also
um to minister intend um you know um to God's
(40:48):
people and that's why even something like the Lord's supper
communion is a great opportunity where we get to actually
talk with people in our congregations and to um make
sure that they have a clear understanding of the gospel
that they know who Jesus is and that salvation is
only by grace through faith in him.
Um, but that passage also in Philippians 1:6 that he
(41:12):
being confident of this very thing, that he who began
a good work in you, that's God beginning a good
work in everyone who is trusting in Jesus, he will
complete it, talking about that work, not only of our salvation.
From the penalty of sin, but also us being saved
(41:33):
from the power of sin, that's sanctification, and also looking
ahead when we're saved from the presence of sin, that's
our future glorification. God's gonna complete that work. And so
like Phil said earlier, that is one of those assurance
passages that we can rest in as believers in
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Jesus. Phil Metzger.
Yeah, great answer. I, I don't, I honestly, Sharon, don't
wanna answer to that question that you're exactly having other
than to say, I, I really wanna recommend, highly recommend.
That you and, you know, maybe if, if you're, if
you're still in, if you're married, just for your own sake. Like,
(42:12):
I hope you're at a good church, and I hope
you could have like good counsel from leaders there because
there's certain things said that I, I'm not concerned as, uh, like,
I know you have concern for your daughter. I want
you to know, I also have concern for you, not
about your salvation, but just about where you're at in life,
that you're getting good, healthy people around you to support you.
(42:33):
To pray for you, to pray with you, maybe in
small groups or whatnot in your church. Um, it sounds
like things have not, that maybe things have been pretty
rough in different seasons of life, and now you're kind
of looking at it and going, but are they, are
they OK? And for a lot of people, it's just
not how life works. They don't look back and just say, yeah,
I'm fine and I'm gonna make you feel that I'm OK.
(42:55):
There's a lot of water under bridges in our lives,
and people get hurt, and so you might wanna work
with somebody through that and let God use somebody in
your life to bring some healing and um uh and
I'll be praying that that's what can happen, but I
think as it relates to salvation.
You know, I, I love this like, uh, you know,
as John was talking about, not everybody is, you know,
(43:15):
the invisible and the visible, and I, I gotta be honest,
I pastor a church, but I'm thankful to God, man.
I just want my name written in the Lamb's book
of life. And so I'm praying for my family as well,
but I'm, I'm also wanting to just be present and
abiding in the Lord now, and I, and I'll pray
that same thing for you.
All right, Sharon, thank you for your phone call today
on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number to call. We're
(43:40):
gonna be here for about, uh, 12 more minutes or so. 888-564-6173,
and there is still time for you to get your
question answered. Here is Louise, who is calling in from
San Bernardino, listening on FM 107.9 K wave. Hello, Louise.
Hello, thank you for taking my call. I wasn't going,
I didn't know I was going live. It's a touchy subject. Um,
(44:04):
my adult daughter, she's been saved. She's been a Christian
all her life since she was a child. And just
a few years ago, she said she'd been struggling, but
she told me recently that um she doesn't like men,
that she's interested in women now.
And that she, I'm sorry, it's hard. Yeah, we understand.
(44:24):
How old is she, Louise? Um, she's 27. OK. And
she said she's fought this for 3 years, and she
felt like God gave her peace, that he said it's
OK to be who you are, and she felt like
she had permission from God now for this.
And so now I, I always hear about the Bible
that it's wrong, right? And um but I love my
(44:48):
daughter and all God was, all God did was tell me,
just hug her and love her. Don't say anything else
when she told me. And that's where I'm at now,
and we haven't talked about it for a few months now.
And so I just wanna know what God says truly
says about it and how you handle that with your,
your child.
All right, Phil.
Yeah, as uh, as it relates to how do you
(45:09):
handle that with your child, it sounds to me like
you've handled things really beautifully. And, you know, I think
everybody's gonna have grace in, in, in, in their life
and their way. And I know that there's a lot
of people that would love to be able to answer
this and tell you, you need to make sure she
knows this, that and the other. She knows that she's wrong,
she knows this, and I'm sure you get that pressure
(45:31):
or even feel that pressure. Um, but I'd like to
Maybe encourage you in that it sounds like your daughter
is very clear on knowing what the Bible says. Now,
as it relates to her saying, she prayed and God
gave her peace, I, I think we're gonna have disagreement
on
Who gave her peace, where she might feel like that
(45:54):
came from God. Um, I might suggest that that just
came from, she's tired of fighting this battle, and it's
just more comfortable to just do what she feels is best. Uh,
but regardless, I'm not talking to your daughter, I'm talking
to you. I think your reaction to her was very gracious. Um, again,
like I said, people are gonna wanna make sure, you know,
she needs to know what is the truth. Sounds like
(46:15):
she's been raised and knows, you know, the scriptures and
knows who knows Jesus and knows the word of God.
Um, I think relationship in these moments is the most
important thing, and that is to keep relationship. So I'm
a big believer in keeping relationship, loving your daughter, um,
loving is not the same as agreeing on every level. Gosh,
God so loved the world, but he doesn't, he doesn't
(46:36):
agree with us.
Uh, so love and agreement do not speak the same
language necessarily. Just know this. You can still love your daughter,
and even if you don't agree with the choices or
if God doesn't agree with her choices, he still loves
her and you can still love her. John Huang?
Yeah,
Speaker 2 (46:53):
I, you know, one thing that we just want um
to encourage you with is you're not alone. Um, you know,
this is something that is um become more and more
prevalent for many families.
And um and so I think that one of the
things that the devil likes to do is um to
(47:14):
to isolate people and to make them feel like whatever
problem they're having to deal with at home, this is
something that is very a unique problem to them. This
isn't something that happens in a good healthy Christian family and,
and he isolates and and and if the devil can
push a parent or parents into a corner.
And to live in those thoughts, then they end up
(47:37):
not only getting their souls beat up, but then they're
no good to their children. And um so I just
want to encourage you, you know, whenever we um go
to war against the forces of darkness, take the fight
into the light.
And so the Bible tells us in 1 John 1:5
that God is light and in him is no darkness
(47:58):
at all and so um with that, you know, I
know that there are um you know, many groups that
meet in fact there's probably a group that meets at
your church with families and parents and if they, if they're.
Isn't I I'd encourage you to just find a good
Bible teaching church and find out if there are support
groups for parents that are in similar situations because I
(48:21):
think that that's gonna be really helpful for you to
be united with other parents praying for our children. That
is the greatest weapon that um that we have right
now is prayer.
And um and so having parents that we can pray
with and having a church that is supporting you through this,
and um and constantly being reminded of the gospel and
(48:44):
not only God's love for you, but also for your daughter.
But also I encourage you to get educated, um, you know, um, I,
I think another, another way that the devil gets into
our head is we live in the world of subjective
feelings and assumptions and we start thinking that.
You know, um, if you know, um, you know that
(49:06):
we might end up start thinking wrong thoughts about God
and how he feels about our children and us and
so we just need to be educated with good solid, um,
you know, voices that that are scholars and they've got
pastoral hearts and they've thought through the issue and they
know how to speak through stuff informatively but also graciously.
(49:26):
Um, I know people like Sean McDowell has really thought
through these issues, but you know, I, I'm curious if
your daughter would even read a book, um, you know, um,
when you were talking about your daughter, it reminded me
of a of a of a person named Jackie Hill
Perry and Jackie Hill Perry wrote a book years ago
called Gay Girl, Good God, and it's her story.
(49:48):
Um, she right now is, um, just a, a huge
influencer for God's kingdom, but she tells her story about
her struggles, but, um, but also the redemptive power of Jesus.
Another person that I would encourage you to read is
um a person named Sam Albury.
(50:08):
And uh and he's written some books on this topic.
In fact, he wrote one book that is entitled Why
does God Care Who I Sleep with? And um and
so Sam Albury would also be um another good voice
because um these are people that not only have thought
through these issues, but you know, they've also worked through
(50:30):
the struggles.
And um and I and and and just being able
to be reminded that you're not alone, that there's people
that can rally around you and um and especially if
your daughter who claims to be a Christian, it would
be so amazing for her to get plugged into a
good Bible teaching church and for her to be able
to have mature Christians that she'd be willing to talk
this stuff out with because that's all a part of
(50:52):
discipleship and a part of our sanctification and um.
So that's where my heart is, but I, I, I love,
I love what Phil was doing in terms of like
approaching this pastorally and, and hopefully you'll have more of
that as, as God just connects you with people that
can pastor you and your family through this.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
What do
you think of what you heard, Louise?
Um, yeah, I, I mean, it's everything that I feel
in my heart. My fish wants to say other things,
but it is, I just feel God just says love, love, love,
no matter what, just love and pray, and I got
to pray about her going into church cause she think
(51:30):
she's angry with God right now.
So, um, but I know God, God is good and
he can change that. I just wanted direction, you know,
because you hear all these bad things about it and
what God, you know, hates and, and it just was
confusing me and I just, I don't wanna show hate.
It's about relationship of one of you
Speaker 2 (51:48):
said. Yeah, well, just remember, um, just remember like same
sex attraction, homosexuality, all of that.
Um, you know, when, when that is brought to the
cer um, you know, to, to the table in conversation, it,
it almost seems like it hijacks every other conversation thinking
that that is the only sin that God is grieved by, right? That, that,
(52:10):
that he hates. Um, I'm telling you, there's a whole
lot of sins that heterosexual people are committing right now
and uh and just even the things that we consider
to be the most vile, did you know that God, um,
ranks pride as his chief top sin that he hates.
And um that was the thing that got Lucifer kicked
(52:32):
out of heaven, you know, and, and so I think
that it's important for us to not just get so
specific on one sin.
Um, thinking that all other sins are minor issues. Jesus
went to the cross for your daughter the same way
he went to the cross for you, and he went
to the cross for Phil. He went to the cross
for Brian, he went to the cross for me because
(52:53):
we're all broken and messed up and we're all like
sheep without a shepherd, and Jesus came as the chief
shepherd to bring us back home and that's through faith
in Christ. So I just want to encourage you as
you love your daughter.
Remember, love her, but not at the expense of truth.
And so I think that if there's a pattern for
us to learn, it's what Jesus sets forth in the
(53:15):
gospel that he comes with grace and truth. And so
um the love that Jesus showed, it wasn't capitulation, it
wasn't saying hey I love you so much I'm just gonna.
Just, you know, tolerate what you do, um, but we
recognize the things that the Lord says, hey, this is disobedience,
but at the same time, we learn how to love them, um,
(53:39):
not deeper and deeper into themselves and into their senses,
but we gotta learn how to love them to Jesus.
And that's where we need the guidance of the Holy Spirit,
that's what we need to pray, and that's why we
need people around us that know scripture and they.
And they're able to walk with us so that we
can be able to stay settled and grounded in God's truth,
but also to practically know how to love our family.
(54:01):
Phil
Speaker 1 (54:02):
Metzger, I'll give you about a minute to answer this question.
Do you think Christians put such a big emphasis on
same sex, same-sex attraction, homosexuality, etc. because, I mean, it's
just this egregious sin. It is so egregious that God
wiped out two entire cities because of what was going
on there.
So is that why Christians view it as, oh, this
(54:24):
must be like the unpardonable sin, or at least the
second most unpardonable sin?
Right. That might be what some Christians present, but that's
really even, uh, and I, I'm glad for how you
were phrasing that, Brian, that, you know, that even what
happened in the Old Testament as it relates to that,
is not simply, uh, because of same-sex attraction. So we
(54:44):
got to be really clear on that, right? And so,
I think it's, you know, especially today, and just cut
me off when it's time cause I don't hear it.
Uh, the, the idea that like we, there is a
bit of a reaction as well among many Christians where
we see so much being kind of pressed in culturally
upon us, and we're like fighting this tide of like,
my gosh, it feels like it's everywhere and it's everything.
(55:05):
And we need to not overreact to what the world
is pressing and just keep ourselves very grounded in the
word of God, the love of God, grace and truth,
as John was pointing out about Jesus, grace and truth. So,
so yeah, we just, it, it is not the worst.
It's just the one that we are like currently really, uh,
infatuated with blaming people for, but certainly pride is far
(55:27):
more dangerous. For sure. Louise, thanks for your phone call
really quick.
The two books that John Huang mentioned, Gay Girl, Good God,
by Jackie Hill Perry and Why Does God Care Who
I Sleep with by Sam Albury. You can find those
wherever you get your books, and we are out of
time for today's episode of Pastor's Perspective, which will soon
be archived on Facebook, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. Phil Metzger,
(55:52):
thank you for joining us. John Huang, good to see you, man.
Hope to see you again soon. We'll talk to you
guys tomorrow here on Pastor's Perspective.
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