August 4, 2025 • 56 mins
Pastors' Perspective is a one-hour call-in program where listeners can call in and get answers to questions about the Bible, Christianity, family, and life. The program is live Monday through Friday from 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM Pacific. You can call 888-564-6173 to ask your questions.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hey, hello, welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez.
It is so good to have you listening today on
the radio, maybe a podcast, or you're watching us live
online on Facebook, YouTube, or Instagram. We're going to be
here till 4 o'clock and we welcome your phone calls.
888-564-6173 is the number to call. The sooner you call in,
(00:38):
the better of a chance you'll get on. If you
tried calling us last week.
And couldn't get on. Call now, 888-564-6173 is the number
to call. Answering your questions today, we've got Mike Chadick
and Scott Ray. Now, Mike and Scott have never been
on together. They've never met. So, uh, why don't you
guys introduce yourselves to one another. Scott, tell Mike a
(01:00):
little bit about yourself. Well, Mike, very nice to meet you,
and this is for the benefit of our of our
listeners too.
Uh, my day job is a professor and dean of
faculty at Talbot School of Theology, Byola University. I also
serve as a senior adviser to the president for university
mission of of Biola. Uh, and I'm, I'm starting my
37th year on the faculty. Uh, I started when I
(01:23):
was 15. Uh, no, I wish that were true, but, uh.
Yeah, so, and we've got a, we've got a great
thing going at Talbot, uh, our new dean Ed Stetzer
is in his 3rd year this year, and Ed's as
a regular guest on this program, uh, and so he's
been a, a, a real treat to work for, and
Talbot's growing. B is growing. Uh, it's been very, it's
(01:44):
been very cool. I've been married for 41 years. Uh,
my wife renews my contract every year on our anniversary, and, uh,
we have 3 grown kids, all artists of one sort
or another, spread out across the country.
Uh, and all grown and flown and doing well. Nice.
So Mike, tell Scott a little about yourself and all
(02:05):
of our listeners too.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, so I'm a pastor of Image Church OC in
San Juan Capistrano. Been there for about 12 years now,
been a full-time minister, pastor for about 2 decades now, uh, married,
blended family, 6 children, 3 boys, 3 girls, and, uh, actually,
I do know a bit about you, cause I first
(02:29):
heard you give a talk at the ETS annual meeting
in San Francisco back in about 2011.
Ah, I believe, I believe it was on, uh, IVF actually.
Uh, was a particular talk and it had an impact
on me. Then, uh, I went to Vanguard, did my
undergrad at Vanguard, and your ethics book. I believe it
was either the 2nd or 3rd edition at the time,
(02:50):
was one of the required textbooks. And then I read
your latest version again. So I am a little bit
more familiar with you than you are with me. I
think
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Mike knows you better than you know. I think that's true.
That may be true. And just the, the 5th edition
of Moral Choices you're referring to will be out here
in a few months. wow.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
OK.
So I've read the 4th and then maybe it was
either the 2nd or 3rd also.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Very good. Well, blessings on your professors for requiring those
for your classes. They contributed to taking my wife out
to dinner. Yes, there we go. Wonderful. All right, 888-564-6173
is the number to call us today. You can also
send in your questions.
On the pastor's perspective Facebook page using Messenger, or you
(03:33):
can DM us on the pastor's perspective Instagram. You can
go to Kwave.com and look for the pastor's perspective page,
fill out the form there. That gets your question to us.
Or if you're watching on Facebook, YouTube, or Spotify, you can, uh,
scan that QR code there that you see on the
bottom of the screen, and that will take you right
to that pastor's.
perspective page on Kwave.com, or you can fill out that
form that I was telling you about. You can also
(03:55):
did what Phyllis did. She sent us an email to
an email address that we don't even use anymore. So, uh, Phyllis,
we will not be using this email address any longer, so, uh,
you were the last one to, to send in your
question this way, but, uh, we're glad that we received
your question. Phyllis writes,
Why does Paul say in 1 Thessalonians 5:20, do not
(04:16):
despise prophecy. I know the um or prophecies, I'm sorry,
I know the prophets and the Old Testament weren't always
well liked because they were many times rebuking people for sin.
Does this apply here? Mike, what would you say to Phyllis?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Um, I think it's a little bit different. So, I
follow Wayne Gruum here in his thinking of making a
distinction between prophets in the Old Testament and the gift
of prophecy in
The New Testament. So, um,
For example, in the Old Testament of prophet, the very
words of the prophet were the words of God to
(04:55):
reject the prophet and the words of the prophet was
to reject the very words of God Himself. But in
the New Testament, you have the gift of the Spirit.
It says your sons and daughters shall prophesy your old
mental dream dreams, your young men will see visions, and
I'll pour out my spirit on men servants, maidservants, so
there's sort of what some might call a democratization of
the gift of the spirit, it's poured out.
(05:16):
And it seems to be the gift is a little
bit different, it's um it's not something where the person
speaking is to be automatically assumed to be right or correct,
as a matter of fact, the very next verse, after
do not despise prophecies, is test all things.
Abhor that which is evil, cling to that which is good. Well,
(05:37):
if the nature of prophecy in the New Testament was
the same as the Old Testament, what, what are you
testing it for? It's the word of God, you're supposed
to hear it and believe it, but the New Testament
gift seems that there's there's some fallibility there that people
can
Speak um out of wrong motive, people could say something
that's partially true, but there's a little bit of admixture
(05:58):
in there of error, and so God's people have to
not despise it, in the sense that it, it can
be wrong, people can be mistaken. I mean, I've experienced
this many times myself growing up in a charismatic or
Pentecostal churches where people sort of assert their gift over
you and they
(06:19):
Kind of shut down any critical thinking and just say, hey,
I'm a prophet, you need to listen to what I say,
and then come to find out what they said was wrong,
or it was manipulative, or whatever. So, I think because
there's a fallibility to the New Testament gift of prophecy,
there could be a tendency to despise it, and I am,
I'm a continuationist, so I believe that the gift is
for today, and yet I share the concern of many
(06:41):
cessationists who don't want
People writing new words of scripture, adding to the canon
and shutting down critical thinking. So I would draw a
little bit of a distinction that, uh, the question I,
I don't think provided.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Yeah, that, that's really helpful. I too am a continuist, uh,
and I believe that those gifts are for today and,
and remain, uh, and I think you're right, like to
say to read the next verse to test them all,
hold on to what's good and reject every kind of evil. Uh, so,
you know, we're, we're to be discerning.
About prophecy, uh, because you, you're right, it, it can
(07:17):
spring from false motives. It can spring from, I think,
an outsized ego, uh, and a desire to wield power. Uh,
all of those things are the misuse of those gifts
that the apostles were, were well aware of in the,
in the first century. So I think they, they anticipated,
you know, they knew enough about human nature to know
that where some of where these gifts could go off
(07:38):
the rails.
If they were not used within the proper context and
not with not with the proper motives.
Phyllis, thank you for sending in your question, and now
we're gonna go to the phones. The phone number to
call is 888-564-6173. Maybe we'll read some more submitted questions
a little bit later, but right now, let's go to
the phones. 888-564-6173. Helen in Fontana, who listens on the
(08:04):
Kwave app. Thank you for calling in today, Helen. What's
your question for Mike Chaddick and Scott Ray?
Thank you for taking my call. My question is, I'm
kind of like,
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I feel like I'm in a rut because I repeat
the same prayers every night. I, my purpose is to
pray for my family and for my sisters and my friends,
and so I feel like I'm repeating myself night after night.
I don't want to sound like a heathen, but I
feel like God already knows what I need, and I
do pray, but uh it seems like I'm praying the
(08:36):
same prayer. Sometimes I change a little bit bit, but
Well, I don't know what to do.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I feel sometimes I feel like I don't even want
to pray because I'm gonna sound like a broken record.
All right, Scott, let's start with you. Regardless of whether
you sound like a broken record or not, God still
knows what you need, and he still calls us to pray,
and we pray in primarily in order to connect with God,
to share our heart, uh, and I think, you know,
that that sharing our heart with God is is for
(09:02):
our benefit, not for his, because he he already knows
what's there.
And I, you know, I worship in a, a more
liturgical tradition in, in the Anglican Church that, uh, has
a lot of, so the liturgy has a lot of
repeated prayers that we repeat, you know, week after week
after week. I mean how many times, you know, I
think about how many times have you said the Lord's prayer.
(09:24):
You know that's probably hundreds and hundreds of times you
said that, but I wouldn't consider either of us in
a rut because of that. I just, we learn, we
learn to appreciate the depth of it. We, we, we
emphasize different things when we pray, the, the things that
we repeat over and over again. Uh, now it's it's
entirely possible you are in a rut if you're just
going through the motions. That's true. I think i neither
(09:46):
of us know you well enough to be able to
make that judgment, uh, but I think just because you
are praying the same things over and over again.
I wouldn't, I don't, there's no, there's no conclusion that
you have to draw about your spirituality from that. Uh,
I think God God looks at what's in our heart,
and if your heart, if your heart is, is being
expressed in the things that you are praying, whether it's
(10:08):
repeated or not, I think that can be just as valid.
Mike
Shattuck.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah, I would agree with Scott. I, I don't think
there's anything wrong with repetition, however, I do know that
some of us, particularly if we grew up with the
old King James tradition, we were told to avoid quote vain.
Repetitions, other translations, like it's more like babbling or something
like that. But I, I think the key there is
vain or empty or mindless. I think you could be
(10:37):
extremely mindful and heartfelt and yet repeat yourself. I mean,
for goodness' sake, I'm a parent of 6 kids, as
I shared earlier, and I find myself repeating myself every
single day, and I'm not being vain. It, it's meaningful.
I need to repeat the same things to my kids.
It needs to be done. This needs to not be done.
That trying to form habits in them, so I don't
(11:00):
think there's anything wrong with repetitions per se. I think
they can be extremely meaningful and like Scott said, I
think sometimes those are the best prayers. I mean, sometimes I,
I don't know what to pray, especially if I'm, I
feel like I'm in a rut and I'm overwhelmed and
I think that's part of the beauty of the Lord's prayer.
You don't have to repeat it verbatim. I do think it's,
(11:23):
it's a model, but I don't think it's wrong to
repeat it and there's seasons of life where that's the
best prayer I can possibly pray is to repeat that prayer.
It's God's word, after all, so I'm repeating these words
back to God. And then I would also say, sometimes
I think we forget.
Um, the multifaceted nature of prayer. Prayer is not just
(11:44):
about getting things done or getting our will done in heaven,
but it's about communing with God. And I think that's
often lost in American culture where we're very pragmatic. I
think the late RC Sproul said the only philosophy America
ever invented was pragmatism. We're just all about getting things done,
and we're interested in prayer as long as stuff's changing
(12:05):
and moving and all of that. But what about communing?
With God. It's not just about getting a chore done, uh, a,
a mountain moved or whatever it is, it's being with
God and sometimes some seasons of life, I think about
the hardest seasons of life I've been through, and simply
being in the presence of God and resting in God's
(12:25):
love and God's presence through prayer, and as the psalms
tell us, cast your cares upon the Lord, and that's
something that we've got to continually do.
And I would say if you cast your cares upon
the Lord today, and then you find tomorrow the same
cares are there, I wouldn't stop casting them on Him,
because I think that's where spiritual formation is taking place
(12:48):
and where God is strengthening us and meeting our needs,
and even if things outwardly don't change, and I hope
they do, but at the same time, I want to
be changed. I want to be more like God, and
so I would say, keep coming.
To him with those prayers, be mindful, be heartfelt, but
if you are repeating yourself because your circumstances are not changing,
(13:09):
I think those are still beautiful prayers.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
You know, one thing that might be helpful is to
use some, some prayers that you see and some devotional guides.
Or even a, you know, things like the book of
common prayer that the Anglican Church provides, uh, those have
lots and lots of model prayers for every occasion under
the sun, uh, and it might those, you know, using
(13:32):
some of those as guides, even just even just repeating
those out loud from time to time may help you
feel like you're not in a rut any longer, but
that doesn't, as long as it doesn't, I mean, some
people might say, well, it's not coming from your heart
if you're reading somebody else's words. Sure it is.
OK, there, so there, no, it just because they don't
(13:53):
always have to be your words. They can still reflect
what's in your heart and you can still be, and
you'll you can still pray with all of your heart, might, soul,
and strength, just like when you're singing a worship song.
You didn't write that song, but you agree with all
the words you're singing, so I guess.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Exactly. Mike. Well, we'll think about Amazing Grace. Can you
not sing that in a meaningful way, even though you
weren't a slave owner from hundreds of years ago? I mean,
the beautiful thing about Newton and Amazing Grace is even
though he was a particular man at a particular time,
Committing particular sins that none of us have committed, and
yet at the same time, it's written in such a
(14:28):
way that it touches upon fundamental shared human experience. And
obviously the whole Psalms, those aren't, we didn't write those,
and yet they're divinely inspired through humans, real times, real places,
real problems, and they're our guide for us, and even though,
you know, for for example, if somebody
Doesn't come from a liturgical tradition, and they don't appreciate that,
(14:49):
they can say, well, OK, the book of common prayer
is not the Bible, that's true, but what's beautiful about it, again,
it's sort of like uh a pastor praying a prayer
in church on Sunday. You might value that more cause
it seems, quote unquote, spontaneous, but at the same time,
that's their prayer, that's not inspired scripture either, so I
think what you have and
(15:10):
Liturgical guides like the Book of Cabrera, again, is some
incredibly powerful, beautiful prayers that administered to saints for hundreds
of years that are theologically rich, and if it's helpful
to you, I think it's something that you could greatly
benefit from as well.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Very good. 888-564-6173 is the number to call us today
with your questions. And I will go to JJ, who's
listening on the Kwave app in Newport Beach. Hey, JJ,
what's your question for Mike Chaddick and Scott Ray?
Yeah, hi, pastors. Um, my question today was, uh, what
kind of steps can a person take if they wanna
(15:48):
be a pastor?
Is this, are you calling on your on for yourself?
You want to be a pastor?
Yeah, I've, I've been like praying about it and stuff,
and that's something that's been like, I feel like that's
something that's been hitting me as a kid. As a kid,
I was a raised Roman Catholic and I felt like
I wanted to be a priest, but then when I
(16:09):
came and was born again. Uh, but after a while,
I felt like, man, I really like reading the word
and teaching it and uh.
Explaining it especially to like people and stuff like that,
so I mean. All right, Mike, we'll start with you.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah, so are you involved in a local church right now?
Uh, yeah, I am.
Yeah, so I would say, I mean, a great first
step is to have a meeting with the pastor there
and ask them because, again, there's a lot of different
Christian denominations and traditions, and they'll have different pathways as
to what that looks like. For example, some traditions will
(16:48):
require that you go to seminary, get an MDiv, other
ones won't, other ones are looking more for hands-on, like,
immediately we want to see that you're serving and all that,
but what I would encourage, and, and again, you may
be doing this already, but
You know, just begin serving when just begin praying and
seeking the Lord on this and look for needs in
in the body of Christ because at the end of
the day, a pastor is a servant. And that's really
(17:11):
what it is. It's not a call to the top
of the chain, it's a call to the bottom of
the change to be the servant of all. So I'd
say serve. I got my start personally.
Vacuuming carpets on weekends at a mega church, which was
not glamorous at all. And I had to like beg
for them to let me because I hadn't been at
the church long enough to allow me at that point.
And I just, that's what I did. And all I knew,
(17:32):
and I, I didn't want to be a pastor at
that point or anything. I just knew I wanted to
serve God and I just wanted to show God that
I was grateful and just loved him so much for
what he did for me.
And to be honest with you, that is how it
started and people saw me, gave me more opportunities to
serve in more ways, and eventually, you know, led to
Bible College, and then while there, it's it, I noticed
(17:55):
people started coming to me and they wanted to learn
from me, and they said, wow, you're able to explain
that the way that stands out, and then that, I
think the Lord started pointing that out, and then, you know,
went to college and seminary and all that kind of stuff.
But like I said, it can be a different pathway.
Depending on your church, but I think just begin serving
right where you are, just see the needs and the
(18:15):
body of Christ, and whether people see you or don't,
don't worry about getting some job where you're visible or
something like that, you know, a lot of people, um, they,
I think they want that part of being a pastor.
Oh wow, they're up there, they're visible, people respect them,
appreciate them. I'd say, you know, it might be good.
To find those jobs behind the scenes, you're not doing
it for anybody but the Lord, and you know that,
(18:38):
and maybe schedule a meeting with a church leader or
pastor and just kinda ask them, hey, in our tradition
and our culture, what does that pathway look like?
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Scott,
you know, this is too much of a softball for
a seminary professor, uh, but, uh, I think, you know, JJ,
it's really it's really important to do some of the
things that Mike is suggesting.
Uh, to serve in ways that are not gonna be visible,
they're not gonna, they're not gonna, uh, satisfy your ego, uh,
any anything like that. Um, and, but the other part
(19:09):
of this is I think, you know, you can start
thinking now about, you know, what, what, what are your gifts?
What do you, what do you really like to do? How,
how do you like to serve, you know, most often.
Um, and I think, you know, Mike's right, there, there's
there's lots of parts, you know, the pastor is not
just about teaching and preaching the word. There's a there's
(19:29):
a lot of stuff in pastoring that is, you know,
just as ground level servanthood that's not, you know, it's
not particularly, um, you know, it's not, it's not pretty often, uh,
people's people have messy things going on in their lives
and they're looking for spiritual direction from that, uh, but
I think to, to, to do what you can.
(19:49):
And I think the earlier you can start the better
to to assemble as you know, as many of the
tools as you can to help you uh administer to people, uh,
to teach the word, to understand the word and to
teach it well, uh, you know, in my view that
involves getting as much formal theological education as is feasible
for you, uh, and I think I, I don't know anybody.
(20:13):
Who's been in the pastorate for for a long time
who looks back on their seminary experience and said, you know,
I wish I hadn't done that most people who forgo
that look back on it and say, you know.
I miss, I miss something important by, by not sharpening
my tools and getting all that I could, uh, because
(20:34):
what we found, and, you know, this was true of,
of a lot of us, uh, and I think I
like this may be true true of you once, once
you finish seminary, the idea of going back to school
for further training, you just, life is too full to
do that. You, you can't take on the demands of
a pastor, especially if you have 6 kids at home.
Uh, you know, further education is not really something, you know,
(20:56):
you may, you may not need that, but even if
you did, chances are unlikely that you were gonna be,
you're gonna be able to find the bandwidth to do that.
So we, we encourage people to get their, get their
educational tools earlier rather than later, uh, and to.
Do that in conjunction with serving in a local church
where you were under the authority of a of a
senior pastor or a pastoral staff or of some of
(21:19):
the elders who they can they can speak into your
life and they can tell you whether they think you
have the gifts and the skills and the temperament to
be a good pastor, the temperament too. Oh, I said
the temperament is that that that may be the most
important part of it because some some people they're just
not wired that way.
(21:39):
Uh, and there's no shame in that. Uh, I mean,
God's wired people to do different things to contribute to
his kingdom, and there, and in God's economy there is
no hierarchy of callings, you know, the pastor is not
doing something more valuable for God's kingdom than the business person, uh,
or the physician or the school teacher or the plumber
or anybody else, you know, Paul's very clear in the
(21:59):
New Testament that in in whatever you do in your work,
you do it heartily and it's the Lord Christ whom
you are serving.
Now if God and there's some there's some roles that
people are better suited for than others, uh, you know,
and I tell my seminary students that, you know, you know,
maybe you're well suited for this, maybe God is moving
(22:20):
you in this direction, but be prepared for the fact
that the deeper you get into this, you may find
out that you're not as wired for this as you
think you are, and there's no, there is no shame.
In that because if somebody who decides they're, you know,
they step down from a pastorate or they, you know,
they decide they're not gonna do that, you're not leaving
the ministry all believers are in full-time ministry, full-time service
(22:44):
regardless of where they get a paycheck from, yeah, and
you make a good point because what if you get
into it and then after a few years you say,
you know what, this isn't for me, and you kind of.
Never mind, you, you, you resign, whatever. I mean, again,
that there's lots of keys. It's not just, I mean,
it's great that you enjoy reading the Bible, JJ, and
teaching it and everything, but yeah, I've heard, you know,
(23:06):
get involved with the Sunday school at your church, maybe
if you can teach kindergartner, what, what have I heard,
if you can teach kindergartner the Bible, if you can
hold their attention, then maybe you can, uh, teach anybody. Mike.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Yeah, I think, uh, just to touch on the temperament thing,
you know, I think that that's, that's far more significant
than I realized at the time, just how important that is.
And I think another good thing, cause again, on the
one end, you're wanting to learn, hey, do, you know,
do I have the giftings, the callings, the temperament to
do it?
But I think another great thing to do is sit
(23:39):
down with a pastor and really ask them about their
experience and what the job really entails, cause I, I
think everyone and I had this too, um, they have
an idea of what it is, and very often that's,
it's different. It's not, it's not the same thing, and,
you know, in some circles, for example, it's just all teaching,
(24:02):
you know, and really I find that sort of
The tip of the iceberg, that's the cherry on top,
but so much of what you're doing is not that,
or at least not in that sort of sermon or
lecture classroom format you're dealing with starting out outside of
the church, and while the church is not a business,
(24:22):
it does business, just like a family has to deal
with finances and making executive decisions and administrative duties and
Uh, human resources and personnel and hiring and firing and
all that, all that kind of stuff, and obviously it
depends on, you know, the, the size of the church
and who you have and all that, but odds are
you're gonna be doing like 100 other things, and I
(24:46):
think a lot of people, they have a romantic view
of what being a pastor will be and they get
into it and they're shocked.
Uh, to find out, not that it's bad, but that
it's just far more complicated, complex, and diverse than they realized,
and they might have been a great teacher. They could
be a group they could preach great sermons and teach
(25:08):
great classes, but they don't have the gifting and the
temperament to handle all of the other things that come
their way.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
I'd say, you know, if you aspire to be a
spiritual leader for people, you have to make sure that
people are actually following you too, because there's, you know,
there are lots of leaders who think they're leaders, but
nobody's following them and that's an important consideration and you
have to sometimes it just involves looking in the mirror.
And say, you know, may maybe I'm better at other
things than this and I wouldn't, I wouldn't want somebody
(25:41):
to be attracted to the pastor because they think it's
objectively of more value to God's kingdom and something else
that they could be doing, uh, because I mean.
I've got, I've got more seminary students that I know
what to do with who say things like I left
my business to go serve the Lord full time and
I want to say, what did you think you were
doing with your business? You know, you were also serving
(26:03):
the Lord full time in that it was just a
different arena of service.
Yeah.
All right, uh, JJ, what do you think of these answers?
You sure you still want to do it?
Uh, yeah, I think the key thing I'm taking away
from here is service, like serving others and like the
same thing that Jesus did with his apostles where he
(26:23):
washed their feet, you know, it's that kind of attitude
that you go into it, but also definitely still a
lot to meditate on. I love all the perspective and
the deep answers. Thank you guys.
All right, awesome. JJ, thanks for calling in today. 888-564-6173.
Let me read a question that was sent in online.
This one is from Misty. She writes, I spent some
(26:45):
time learning about Native American and Polynesian cultures, and I
currently live on the island of Oahu.
I'm learning about traditions including haka, which is a traditional
dance and chant calling on ancestors for strength, wisdom, and guidance. My,
my Christian understanding is that anything that invokes spirits is
evil and should not be practiced. Is this true?
(27:08):
And included, I've never done these practices myself because it's
not part of my natural culture, but I have observed
them many times and often get very emotional. Is this
something my spirit is sensitive to, and should I not
be in the presence of these practices? Mahaloui. Thank you,
says Misty, to which I reply, Aole pilichia. I think
(27:29):
that's right. I don't know. Mike, what do you tell Misty?
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Yeah, well, I mean, right at the very end there,
I mean, it sounds like her her spirit.
is being provoked by this thing, and I would say
don't ignore that. I don't think that's a good thing.
I think obviously, I think all cultures have various
pagan practices and whatnot, and I think there there's a
difference between the people who are doing it and the
(27:56):
reasons they're doing it, and then somebody who comes from
outside the culture and
Sees what's going on, um, for example, like the apostle
Paul would have to deal with this in the Greco-Roman
world where people were eating meat, offered to idols, some
are doing it with the mindset of this is we're
worshiping demons, we're worshiping false gods. Um, I think of yoga,
(28:19):
for example, in America, right?
For many people, yoga has been stripped of its Hindu
spiritual roots, and it's simply, they actually literally just do
the stretching and stuff, but for other people, it carries
with them those, um, spiritual connotations. Consciously they're thinking about
these other things. So I think, you know, it would
(28:39):
be great to dialogue with you further about.
Your experience, because part of your spirit being provoked, it
might have been provoked on their behalf, like if they
are attempting to do this and connect with ancestors through
pagan practice. Obviously, I think rightly, you're grieved and you're
wanting to see them come out of that. If, however,
you're talking about for yourself.
Like, is this something I should see or do, then
(29:00):
that I would say that's a different matter.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Scott, 30 seconds or do you want to take it
on the other side of the break? Um, I just,
I can give in 30 seconds. I think that there
may be some, you know, some of these practices that
are just they're just cultural things that may be a
case of no harm, no foul.
This one sounds to me like it's a pagan ancestor worship,
you know, the Old Testament has a lot to say
about that, that we don't engage in in practices that
(29:23):
are a part of religions outside of Christian faith. Yeah,
but then somebody might argue, well, what about Halloween here
in America? Is it OK to do that?
I would say that as long as, as long as
we're clear about what's, you know, what's what's real, uh,
because the demonic world is real, but we're not really
participating in that in, uh, in most Halloween celebrations, right?
(29:46):
And the reason I'm bringing up Halloween.
August is because the decorations are already going up all
over the place, isn't that crazy? Misty, thank you for
sending in your question from Honolulu, and we'll be back
with more of your questions. What do you want to
ask us today? 888-564-6173. Can't wait to hear from you.
(30:19):
We are back on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is our number.
My name is Brian Perez. Mike Chaddick, the senior pastor
of Image Church in San Juan Capistrano, is answering your
questions today. So is Scott Ray. He is a professor
at the Talbot School of Theology.
At Biola University, Professor of philosophy and Christian ethics. So
(30:41):
if you've got, uh, questions along that line, that'd be
great to hear from you today. Looks like Dakota's got
one calling in from Florida, listening on the Kwave app. Hey, Dakota,
welcome to Pastor's Perspective.
Hi, thank you for taking my call. So, yeah, I had,
was listening to a conversation over the weekend um regarding
(31:02):
um different things politically, but then it is spewed into
the topic of abortion. um.
Gentleman says, well, I don't believe in abortion because I'm
a Christian. Um,
The response is, well, based on Numbers chapter 5,
(31:23):
It seems like God actually promotes abortion.
And
If I were to, how, how would you go about
interpreting that and responding to it? Did he mention what
particular verses in Numbers chapter 5?
Well, there's a, uh, I think the latter half of it, um,
(31:43):
where it talks about if a woman is uh unfaithful,
has relations outside of her marriage, um, the husband believes
it to be so, uh, brings her before the priest,
they have a, uh, a ritual, um, and if she
is guilty, then she is to be cursed and not
(32:04):
have any.
not be able to bear children any longer and also
have a miscarriage in that time. Um, if she's not.
Uh, guilty then continue with the pregnancy and
Um, I don't recall there having any other consequences on
the husband for bringing that charge against her if she
(32:26):
was not wrong other than
Um, the tide, like the RAM and
Some other object, OK, um.
Doctor Scott Ray, what do you say? Well, let me
say this first of all before we get into this, uh,
in Numbers 5 that, you know, I'm a Christian and
(32:47):
I believe that abortion is wrong, but it's, I, I, I,
I can make I can make a good argument that
abortion is wrong without dependence upon my Christian faith.
Uh, because I think you can make a good philosophical
argument that the unborn child, even, even human embryos, are
full persons with the with the right to life.
(33:08):
Um, so I don't, I don't, yeah, Christian faith helps,
I think helps buttress that view, but it, it is,
it's consistent with Christian faith, but it's not dependent on it.
So that may be a, a helpful distinction. Uh, this is, I,
I admit this is one of the more curious passages in,
in the Mosaic law, and I think that what helps
(33:30):
me understand this is the right at the very end
of Numbers 5 in verse 31.
The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing if he's
not had an affair, but the woman will bear the
consequences of her sin, and I see this more as a,
as a natural outgrowth of the the consequences of of
a woman's sin here. I don't think that God is against, uh,
(33:53):
you know, is, is against the the unborn.
Uh, but I think this in a natural miscarriage is
different than an induced abortion. This is, I think, referring
to a natural miscarriage that would result from a variety
of factors that that could have a bearing on how
the how the woman's responding to this.
So I, I would see it as, as something quite different,
(34:16):
and I, so I don't think, I don't think the
charge against God here stands that he is somehow against
the unborn and somehow is complicit in killing the unborn. Uh,
this is simply, I think, a natural outworking of, uh,
consequences of this unfaithful woman sin,
Mike Chad.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yeah, I mean, it's a difficult passage for sure, for
a number of reasons. One, by the way, is actually
translation of the Hebrew, different translations translated differently. Some
Uh, there's some vague euphemistic language used. Some think it
refers to miscarriage, others do not, that it's simply the,
the belly swelling, the thighs, the thigh will fall. It's
(35:00):
strange language, so first of all, there is a genuine
difficulty in translation and not everyone agrees. For example, we
may not even be dealing with that miscarriage or abortion
in this particular passage, but hypothetically, let's assume that that
is what it's doing, um.
Number 111 key difference would be this is.
(35:20):
In the context of this passage, this is seen as
divine judgment upon something, not humans like, oh, hey, I
just don't want a kid, so I'm gonna kill it. No,
this is somebody suspects their wife of having been unfaithful,
but they don't know for sure, and so they're gonna
render judgment to God. That's certainly a far cry from
(35:42):
everybody taking life into their own hands. That's a different thing.
And secondly, though, obviously it's extremely weird and strange to
a modern American, ironically, this is also partly a preventative passage,
because if you study the ancient Near East, what you
find out in a legitimately violent patriarchal world, if a
man suspected his wife of cheating, they could just kill her,
(36:03):
and it's no problem. You could just kill her, but
whereas this is actually protecting women, ironically, uh, because it's
actually saying, hey, rather than you in your rage.
Killing your wife because you think you're just, you're suspicious.
You didn't see it, you don't know for sure. You
think and you just, and you don't like living with
the shame or the humiliation or whatever it is of
(36:23):
being a man who's been cheated on, so instead you're
gonna render judgment to God. And so, I'd say it's
actually sort of a preventative passage, but just to point out,
and for further study, um, especially if this is a
passage that
You know, is intriguing to you and you feel like
you want to do further research. Um, take a look
at what other translations do with numbers 5. You can
(36:45):
start looking at various Hebrew commentaries on this, that'll dive
into the language and you'll actually find out it's a
very tough thing to base a position on or come with, come.
away with some doctrinal statement, like Scott saying, I would,
I would build a broader case for that from, from
other places, both biblically, also historically, the early Christians were
(37:06):
very clearly against abortion. You see this in the didica,
it's against abortion. Christian women were known for rescuing abandoned babies,
because again, abortion was practiced.
In the first century, but it was so dangerous, people
opted for infanticide, not out of any moral thing, but
they just practically, medically, women were more likely gonna die
if they had an abortion, because the tools were primitive,
(37:28):
so they would abandon them in the wilderness to to
Be killed by the elements or wild animals, and Christian
women would go and rescue these babies. So there's always been,
not only is there a biblical ethic of life, we
have a strong historical ethic of life that goes back
to the very beginning of the Christian movement. It's really
in our roots. It's in our DNA as Christians.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Doctor,
you know, Brian, there's one place in Exodus 21 where
that translation makes a huge difference.
Um, and it's, it's the passage where if, if, if
a man, if you see two men, uh, two men
fighting and a woman comes upon them and tries to
break it up, uh, and she is injured and then
then and and either causes a miscarriage or it can,
(38:11):
the more the better rendering is causes her to give
birth prematurely.
That's just that's probably that's it's a better translation there
and I think that I wonder if that that's possible
if that's the case here as well. So, uh, it's just,
it's a, it's a con if that's the case it'd
be a consequence of sin, but it would not be
anything catastrophic for the unborn child.
(38:35):
Dakota, thank you for your phone call today here on
Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173. Delina, gonna talk to you after we
speak with Patty, who is, uh, watching us on YouTube
in San Marcos. Patsy, what is your question for us today?
Hi, um, thank you for your program. This is quite
(38:58):
the intense question, but it maybe ties into the last question, um.
Why
Is it so hard, and 3 men are listening to me.
I know women have troubles too, but it appears that
(39:22):
it's so hard for a man.
To be faithful to a wife and I, I mean,
so David, concubines, I just wonder your take on that.
And is it harder today because of the internet? OK.
(39:47):
Mike Chadwick, we'll start with you.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Wow, that's a hard one. I can go to. I
could just say men are terrible, but, um, no, I
don't think that's it. I mean, I think obviously.
We're all falling, right? Men and women are falling, I think.
Men and women do have different tendencies. For example, um,
(40:10):
if you look at the number statistically of violent crimes committed,
it's overwhelmingly by men, and you could say, well, you know, it's,
there's certain sins that, and again, I, I know, uh,
and Scott probably knows this too, there's a lot of debate, uh,
over that, how much of that is culture, how much
of that is genetics and predisposition and
All that kind of stuff, but I mean, there's certain
things that men are prone to, so I don't disagree
(40:33):
with that, but I would also say obviously culture is significant.
I think most of history.
Um, it was seen as OK for, for men to
have obviously have more than one wife. Polygamy has been
the dominant form of marriage, and most of the history
of the world really before Christianity comes in and starts
promoting this strange thing called monogamy, which, you know, many
(40:55):
people accept that as normal, but if you look at historically,
it was very abnormal. People are like,
What in the world are you talking about? What, how
could one man have one woman? So, it's ironic today
when people criticize Christianity in the Bible for being against women,
and it's, it's all about men and patriot. Ironically, uh,
no pagan man is gonna wanna hear you only get
one woman for life. That, that's definitely not something I
(41:18):
think men in their sinful following condition would want. So
I think in much of history, that's been the case,
and I think Christianity.
Has given men not only sort of the, the ethos,
the ethic to be faithful, to be covenantal, um, but
also the power. This is such an important thing as
(41:39):
a Christian, God doesn't simply say, hey, sex outside of
marriage is wrong, and if you get married, you need
to be faithful to one wife. He also gives us
the power of the Holy Spirit. We're not just left
on our own.
To fend for ourselves. So I think obviously the fallen
nature that's part of it is men. I do think
men are prone to some things, although I think I,
(42:00):
I see a change in culture where women are being
encouraged to take on more of, unfortunately, some of the
various sins and mentalities that men have had, which were
not good in the first place and are not good
for women today, uh, but those are, those are a
few thoughts I'd love to hear what Scott has to say.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Well, for one, Patsy, it, it sounds like you, you
didn't said this out loud, but if, if this is
something you're grappling with in your own marriage, I'm so
sorry to hear that. And that's just, that's deeply saddening, uh, if,
if that's the case, and we'll be in our prayers,
you'll be in our prayers for that. Um, second, I
want to be, I just want to be careful that
(42:39):
we don't overgeneralize about men and men too broadly. Um,
I think there are there are some tendencies that Mike has,
has brought out.
Um, and I think maybe maybe one of them might
be that men tend to be more visually stimulated than women,
and so the, the prevalence of pornography, I think is
(43:00):
a temptation for men in a way that's different than
for women, which is why we, we, you know, we
emphasize so frequently that men have to, have to be
so careful with what they take in because it's I
think that particularly in this area sort of garbage in
garbage out.
Uh, and we wanna make sure that what you, what
you take in, you you so you carefully monitor that.
(43:22):
Um, and it may be, uh, I'm, I'm just thinking
out loud here, but it may be that there are
things that affect women after menopause that don't affect men.
Uh, that may have to do with sexual desire, um,
and so may, may, that may be part of the,
part of the temptation for men to look outside their marriage, uh,
(43:44):
for that. I, I could be, I could, I'm not
a physician. I could be wrong about that, uh, but, um, I, I,
you know, I know, I know in my, you know,
I'm sure you're the same way. I know the vast
majority of my close friends have been faithful to their
wives for decades.
Uh, not, not to say that it's not without a struggle, but, uh,
(44:08):
you know, it's, I think, to paint, I think to
paint the picture that, you know, this is something that,
you know, all, all, all men are tempted to stray, uh, I,
I just, I just don't think that's true, uh, because
I think I know there are, there are lots of,
there are lots of good men who are faithful to
their wives and they're good good fathers to their children, uh,
(44:29):
and they, you know, they do things right in their lives.
You know it's not to say they don't make mistakes,
but I think it's different, you know, some, some it's
different having a, you know, having a, you know, a,
a brief moment of passion that gets away from, from
you and an ongoing sort of, you know, another full
relationship that go, you know, goes on for months if
(44:50):
not years. Those are, those are two different things, uh,
and I think the, the affairs that involve in intentionality
and planning and deception.
You know, that's, that's a different ball game, it seems
to me, than somebody who
You know, on a business trip, you know, steps out
of line and then vows never to do that again. Mike.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Yeah, um, I mean, I definitely think culture is significant
because I, I think, you know, you think decades ago,
you think of the 1950s or something before the sexual revolution, um,
There, there was, I think very clearly a double standard
where if a man slept around, it wasn't, I mean,
either it wasn't necessarily bad or maybe he's even, you know,
(45:35):
he's a macho man or whatever, but if a woman
did the same thing culturally, that would be considered terrible
and horrendous, and she'd have the scarlet letter on her
head and all that kind of stuff. So I, I
do think culture makes a big difference. I mean, I
know growing up and
In my middle age years, I've thought a lot about
how I grew up and the people I grew up,
and that's how guys were. I mean, I did not
(45:57):
know many guys who were virtuous, loved God, were looking
to save themselves. I literally saw the opposite, you know,
and I think even biologically, there's a reason, right? Because, uh,
a man, apart from, you know, intervention through, you know,
birth control or society.
asserting laws regarding paternity and child sport and all that,
(46:21):
a man can go from person to person and not
bear that consequence of reproduction in his own body, whereas,
of course, prior to um the 1960s and the pill,
a woman would have to deal with that, so even culturally,
it was just kind of like, hey, you can't kind
of can't do that. So I, I do think culture
(46:41):
um is significant, but to Scott's point, I mean, again,
it's
I think there's, I don't think there's anything in men
that means they cannot be different, they cannot change, they
cannot overcome, certainly not with the gospel, you know, I mean,
I know non-believers that, you know, not necessarily for a
virtuous reason, but just honestly, they were, they didn't want
(47:02):
to have children out of wedlock. They saw friends who
were at 18 years old, paying child support and having
to work multiple jobs, uh, they saw people getting diseases and,
and they just said to themselves, you know what, I
don't want that.
You know, it wasn't for God, it wasn't for the
love of God, it wasn't virtue, it was just very practical. So,
I definitely think people can, I think men can, and
(47:23):
I think how much more somebody who recognizes that sex
is something that God created, and he created it to
be between one man and one woman in the covenant
of marriage as a picture of the gospel. And I
think if we teach young men this, uh, from an
early age, and they're following Christ, I, I think that
changes everything.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Well, you know, and today too, it's, you know, the
trend toward polyamory today, which is what we traditionally call polygamy.
The trend toward polyamory is equal opportunity offender. I mean, there,
there are just as many women involved in polyamorous relationships
as there are men, and so that that may be
part of the culture that's changing a bit.
And that women feel much more freed up to engage
(48:08):
in these sort of multiple relationships, uh, as you know,
it was in the past it was mostly with men.
I do think maybe the the trend toward polygamy in, in,
in biblical times, I think maybe there maybe was more
was less of that than we might think because, you know,
the average, the average person in in the ancient world
was desperately poor.
(48:29):
And it took resources to be able to support multiple
wives and concubines and then, you know, the harem, and
we only, we only really hear about those in relationship
to the kings and the people the the very well
off who had the means to support them and I, I,
I just, I don't think it was quite as widespread
as as we might think. Um, so, and for some
(48:51):
reason that that I think is still is a mystery
to me because the scripture really doesn't address it. God allowed.
Some of those things. I don't think he ever sanctioned it,
but he did allow those things perhaps as part of
a safety net for women, uh, whose husbands were, you know,
were dying on the battlefield.
All right, uh, Patsy, thank you for your phone call
today here on Pastor's Perspective. And look, another call from Oahu. Delina,
(49:15):
thanks so much for calling in today. How can we
help you?
Hi, yeah, thank you so much, pastors. We must be
the #1 radio program in Oahu. I mean, we just
got 2 calls in one day. That's amazing. All right. Delina, sorry,
go ahead. What's your question? Yes, no, it's OK. So, long,
very long story short, I've been praying for an opportunity
to get in touch with a very specific Muslim woman.
(49:37):
She lives in Tajikistan currently, and her husband lives here
in Hawaii. And so the Lord made that miracle happen.
I
FaceTime her twice a week, and she's learning English. So
I'm trying to be 1 John 3:18, not loving with
my words, but in action and in truth to show
her Jesus. But the question is, how do I deal
(50:00):
with instances where she'll say, oh, you know, may Allah
bless you, and I pray for you and, you know,
Allah be with you. I don't want to rebuke it
or correct it right off the bat cause she doesn't
know I'm trying to preach Jesus to her, but
How do I go about those things? It's a little
difficult sometimes and I don't wanna come off as rude
(50:21):
when I don't don't respond to it, you know, so. Yeah, Scott,
start with you. I would say I'm praying to Jesus
for you. Mm.
And, and say, hey, you know, let's, you know, let's,
you know, uh, you know, we can, we can pray,
we can pray on my playing field as easily as
we can on yours, uh, and I'm, I'm praying to,
to my God who manifested himself in Jesus and who
(50:43):
is the mediator between God and human beings, uh, and,
you know, hope, hope, you know, that may, may spark
a discussion. I wouldn't say it in a kind of
an in your face way. I, I tell her I,
you know, I appreciate, I appreciate the thoughts and I
appreciate your prayers.
Uh, and there's, I think there's, you know, although I,
I do think Allah and Yahweh God are two different.
(51:04):
There's two very different portraits of God, uh, but they
do have, they do have lots of things in common
as well, um, so I wouldn't, I, I would do
it in a way that alienates her, uh, but I say,
you know, in, in, in my, in my faith, I pray,
I pray to Jesus for people. I've been praying to
Jesus for you for some, for some time.
(51:25):
Something something like that. Yeah, Mike, I may, I may
need a little bit more of a pastoral twist than
what I'm giving it, Mike. Go for it, Mike.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
Yeah, I like, I like Scott's approach. I mean, I
don't think every time you have to correct somebody or say, oh, hey,
that's wrong. I mean, obviously you can do that, but
I think you're, as you're getting to know each other,
stuff is coming, their beliefs are coming out. I just say,
remember you're learning, you know, part of love is understanding.
So, just understanding where a person is coming from, what
they believe. I mean, what's interesting is, uh, Muslims believe
(51:57):
in Jesus, but they don't believe Jesus is the Son
of God. So Jesus is a revered figure in Islam.
My brother-in-law is from Iran and was raised Muslim. We
have these talks all the time, you know, cause a
lot of
Of, you know, Western Christians don't realize that. They think, oh,
you know, Muslims hate Jesus and whatever, and that's not true.
Jesus is a prophet. He's a revered figure. So I think,
(52:20):
you know, as you're talking and, you know, maybe that
moment is not the time, if you're ending the conversation,
may all the list you well, wait a minute, all
is not real. Um, I think, find ways to talk
about Jesus. I, I think obviously Jesus is at the
center of Christianity. We do not preach an idea, we
preach a person.
We preach Jesus Christ. And so I think having as
(52:41):
much as you can, like, who do you think Jesus is,
you know, and, and listen to that and just, and
then respond, hey, this is who I believe Jesus is.
And I think that that can be a great conversation
that you might actually find um with many Muslims, if,
if you approach it, I think in the right attitude,
they're willing to have that.
Speaker 1 (53:01):
What do you think, Delina? That's really good, yeah, and
um I appreciate your, your feedback. And if I may
add one really quick question as well, another area that
I also struggle with is she will
Uh, bless her heart, she may gossip at times about
her husband, and, uh, that I also get stuck in like,
(53:23):
oh my gosh, I know this is not OK, and
she'll go on and on. I don't know how to
stop that. But I'll pray about it, and I like
what you all said about just kind of being light
without force. So just got to be salt.
In my conversations, so yeah, thank you, pastor. That's a
great question, Delina, because we're encouraged to have relationships with
(53:46):
our non-Christian friends, but when they start doing things like,
I mean, sometimes we get questions, should I go to
parties with my non-Christian friends, etc. But in this case,
they're having conversation and she brings up gossip about her husband.
How should a Christian deal with that, Scott? I'd, I'd
say talk positively about yours to her.
And and otherwise I'd say that's that's probably not a
(54:08):
hill I'm gonna die on, uh, because I wanna maintain
the relationship and I, you know, she may not have
anybody else to talk to about the things that she's
struggling with with her husband Mike, one minute.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
Yeah, I think, you know, you can, there, there's a
fine line between somebody's just sharing some genuine grief or
difficulties with you, and I think as Christians, yes, we
want to avoid gossip and slander. So I think kind
of discerning the intent behind it, like, is her goal
just to make him look bad and she's trashing him
and all that, or is she someone who genuinely
just looking for some help and some guidance, and this
(54:44):
is an opportunity for you to speak the gospel into
that marriage situation. Well, you know, the Bible says, you know,
and like, kind of some Christian ethic regarding marriage and
this kind of thing. So I think it's, it's really
good that you're mindful of that, and it can always
go that way.
Um, but to be honest, I think there's times where,
where women can talk to other women, they're not bad
(55:05):
mouthing their husbands at all, but marriage is difficult. As
a man, there's I'll talk to other men about, hey, like,
how can we be better husbands and faithful, like, we're
going through this, you know, and I'm very careful not
to make my wife look bad, but, but I also
think being authentic and open that we do struggle as well.
We're not perfect people, we're broken people. We need a
(55:25):
savior as much as anyone.
Speaker 1 (55:27):
All right, Delena, thank you for your phone call today
on Pastor's Perspective, and we've run out of time. That
always happens. We're gonna archive today's episode on Facebook, YouTube,
and Apple Podcasts and Spotify if you missed any part
of it or just want to hear it again or
share it with your friends, and we will be back
tomorrow between 3 and 4 p.m. Pacific time.
And I'm saying Pacific time cause obviously we've got a
(55:49):
lot of calls in Hawaii today, where it's what, uh, well,
Hawaii time, I guess, 2 hours difference. Anyway, God bless
you guys, we'll be back tomorrow here on Pastor's Perspective.
Hey, hello, welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez.
It is so good to have you listening today on
the radio, maybe a podcast, or you're watching us live
online on Facebook, YouTube, or Instagram. We're going to be
here till 4 o'clock and we welcome your phone calls.
888-564-6173 is the number to call. The sooner you call in,
(00:38):
the better of a chance you'll get on. If you
tried calling us last week.
And couldn't get on. Call now, 888-564-6173 is the number
to call. Answering your questions today, we've got Mike Chadick
and Scott Ray. Now, Mike and Scott have never been
on together. They've never met. So, uh, why don't you
guys introduce yourselves to one another. Scott, tell Mike a
(01:00):
little bit about yourself. Well, Mike, very nice to meet you,
and this is for the benefit of our of our
listeners too.
Uh, my day job is a professor and dean of
faculty at Talbot School of Theology, Byola University. I also
serve as a senior adviser to the president for university
mission of of Biola. Uh, and I'm, I'm starting my
37th year on the faculty. Uh, I started when I
(01:23):
was 15. Uh, no, I wish that were true, but, uh.
Yeah, so, and we've got a, we've got a great
thing going at Talbot, uh, our new dean Ed Stetzer
is in his 3rd year this year, and Ed's as
a regular guest on this program, uh, and so he's
been a, a, a real treat to work for, and
Talbot's growing. B is growing. Uh, it's been very, it's
(01:44):
been very cool. I've been married for 41 years. Uh,
my wife renews my contract every year on our anniversary, and, uh,
we have 3 grown kids, all artists of one sort
or another, spread out across the country.
Uh, and all grown and flown and doing well. Nice.
So Mike, tell Scott a little about yourself and all
(02:05):
of our listeners too.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, so I'm a pastor of Image Church OC in
San Juan Capistrano. Been there for about 12 years now,
been a full-time minister, pastor for about 2 decades now, uh, married,
blended family, 6 children, 3 boys, 3 girls, and, uh, actually,
I do know a bit about you, cause I first
(02:29):
heard you give a talk at the ETS annual meeting
in San Francisco back in about 2011.
Ah, I believe, I believe it was on, uh, IVF actually.
Uh, was a particular talk and it had an impact
on me. Then, uh, I went to Vanguard, did my
undergrad at Vanguard, and your ethics book. I believe it
was either the 2nd or 3rd edition at the time,
(02:50):
was one of the required textbooks. And then I read
your latest version again. So I am a little bit
more familiar with you than you are with me. I
think
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Mike knows you better than you know. I think that's true.
That may be true. And just the, the 5th edition
of Moral Choices you're referring to will be out here
in a few months. wow.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
OK.
So I've read the 4th and then maybe it was
either the 2nd or 3rd also.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Very good. Well, blessings on your professors for requiring those
for your classes. They contributed to taking my wife out
to dinner. Yes, there we go. Wonderful. All right, 888-564-6173
is the number to call us today. You can also
send in your questions.
On the pastor's perspective Facebook page using Messenger, or you
(03:33):
can DM us on the pastor's perspective Instagram. You can
go to Kwave.com and look for the pastor's perspective page,
fill out the form there. That gets your question to us.
Or if you're watching on Facebook, YouTube, or Spotify, you can, uh,
scan that QR code there that you see on the
bottom of the screen, and that will take you right
to that pastor's.
perspective page on Kwave.com, or you can fill out that
form that I was telling you about. You can also
(03:55):
did what Phyllis did. She sent us an email to
an email address that we don't even use anymore. So, uh, Phyllis,
we will not be using this email address any longer, so, uh,
you were the last one to, to send in your
question this way, but, uh, we're glad that we received
your question. Phyllis writes,
Why does Paul say in 1 Thessalonians 5:20, do not
(04:16):
despise prophecy. I know the um or prophecies, I'm sorry,
I know the prophets and the Old Testament weren't always
well liked because they were many times rebuking people for sin.
Does this apply here? Mike, what would you say to Phyllis?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Um, I think it's a little bit different. So, I
follow Wayne Gruum here in his thinking of making a
distinction between prophets in the Old Testament and the gift
of prophecy in
The New Testament. So, um,
For example, in the Old Testament of prophet, the very
words of the prophet were the words of God to
(04:55):
reject the prophet and the words of the prophet was
to reject the very words of God Himself. But in
the New Testament, you have the gift of the Spirit.
It says your sons and daughters shall prophesy your old
mental dream dreams, your young men will see visions, and
I'll pour out my spirit on men servants, maidservants, so
there's sort of what some might call a democratization of
the gift of the spirit, it's poured out.
(05:16):
And it seems to be the gift is a little
bit different, it's um it's not something where the person
speaking is to be automatically assumed to be right or correct,
as a matter of fact, the very next verse, after
do not despise prophecies, is test all things.
Abhor that which is evil, cling to that which is good. Well,
(05:37):
if the nature of prophecy in the New Testament was
the same as the Old Testament, what, what are you
testing it for? It's the word of God, you're supposed
to hear it and believe it, but the New Testament
gift seems that there's there's some fallibility there that people
can
Speak um out of wrong motive, people could say something
that's partially true, but there's a little bit of admixture
(05:58):
in there of error, and so God's people have to
not despise it, in the sense that it, it can
be wrong, people can be mistaken. I mean, I've experienced
this many times myself growing up in a charismatic or
Pentecostal churches where people sort of assert their gift over
you and they
(06:19):
Kind of shut down any critical thinking and just say, hey,
I'm a prophet, you need to listen to what I say,
and then come to find out what they said was wrong,
or it was manipulative, or whatever. So, I think because
there's a fallibility to the New Testament gift of prophecy,
there could be a tendency to despise it, and I am,
I'm a continuationist, so I believe that the gift is
for today, and yet I share the concern of many
(06:41):
cessationists who don't want
People writing new words of scripture, adding to the canon
and shutting down critical thinking. So I would draw a
little bit of a distinction that, uh, the question I,
I don't think provided.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Yeah, that, that's really helpful. I too am a continuist, uh,
and I believe that those gifts are for today and,
and remain, uh, and I think you're right, like to
say to read the next verse to test them all,
hold on to what's good and reject every kind of evil. Uh, so,
you know, we're, we're to be discerning.
About prophecy, uh, because you, you're right, it, it can
(07:17):
spring from false motives. It can spring from, I think,
an outsized ego, uh, and a desire to wield power. Uh,
all of those things are the misuse of those gifts
that the apostles were, were well aware of in the,
in the first century. So I think they, they anticipated,
you know, they knew enough about human nature to know
that where some of where these gifts could go off
(07:38):
the rails.
If they were not used within the proper context and
not with not with the proper motives.
Phyllis, thank you for sending in your question, and now
we're gonna go to the phones. The phone number to
call is 888-564-6173. Maybe we'll read some more submitted questions
a little bit later, but right now, let's go to
the phones. 888-564-6173. Helen in Fontana, who listens on the
(08:04):
Kwave app. Thank you for calling in today, Helen. What's
your question for Mike Chaddick and Scott Ray?
Thank you for taking my call. My question is, I'm
kind of like,
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I feel like I'm in a rut because I repeat
the same prayers every night. I, my purpose is to
pray for my family and for my sisters and my friends,
and so I feel like I'm repeating myself night after night.
I don't want to sound like a heathen, but I
feel like God already knows what I need, and I
do pray, but uh it seems like I'm praying the
(08:36):
same prayer. Sometimes I change a little bit bit, but
Well, I don't know what to do.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I feel sometimes I feel like I don't even want
to pray because I'm gonna sound like a broken record.
All right, Scott, let's start with you. Regardless of whether
you sound like a broken record or not, God still
knows what you need, and he still calls us to pray,
and we pray in primarily in order to connect with God,
to share our heart, uh, and I think, you know,
that that sharing our heart with God is is for
(09:02):
our benefit, not for his, because he he already knows
what's there.
And I, you know, I worship in a, a more
liturgical tradition in, in the Anglican Church that, uh, has
a lot of, so the liturgy has a lot of
repeated prayers that we repeat, you know, week after week
after week. I mean how many times, you know, I
think about how many times have you said the Lord's prayer.
(09:24):
You know that's probably hundreds and hundreds of times you
said that, but I wouldn't consider either of us in
a rut because of that. I just, we learn, we
learn to appreciate the depth of it. We, we, we
emphasize different things when we pray, the, the things that
we repeat over and over again. Uh, now it's it's
entirely possible you are in a rut if you're just
going through the motions. That's true. I think i neither
(09:46):
of us know you well enough to be able to
make that judgment, uh, but I think just because you
are praying the same things over and over again.
I wouldn't, I don't, there's no, there's no conclusion that
you have to draw about your spirituality from that. Uh,
I think God God looks at what's in our heart,
and if your heart, if your heart is, is being
expressed in the things that you are praying, whether it's
(10:08):
repeated or not, I think that can be just as valid.
Mike
Shattuck.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah, I would agree with Scott. I, I don't think
there's anything wrong with repetition, however, I do know that
some of us, particularly if we grew up with the
old King James tradition, we were told to avoid quote vain.
Repetitions, other translations, like it's more like babbling or something
like that. But I, I think the key there is
vain or empty or mindless. I think you could be
(10:37):
extremely mindful and heartfelt and yet repeat yourself. I mean,
for goodness' sake, I'm a parent of 6 kids, as
I shared earlier, and I find myself repeating myself every
single day, and I'm not being vain. It, it's meaningful.
I need to repeat the same things to my kids.
It needs to be done. This needs to not be done.
That trying to form habits in them, so I don't
(11:00):
think there's anything wrong with repetitions per se. I think
they can be extremely meaningful and like Scott said, I
think sometimes those are the best prayers. I mean, sometimes I,
I don't know what to pray, especially if I'm, I
feel like I'm in a rut and I'm overwhelmed and
I think that's part of the beauty of the Lord's prayer.
You don't have to repeat it verbatim. I do think it's,
(11:23):
it's a model, but I don't think it's wrong to
repeat it and there's seasons of life where that's the
best prayer I can possibly pray is to repeat that prayer.
It's God's word, after all, so I'm repeating these words
back to God. And then I would also say, sometimes
I think we forget.
Um, the multifaceted nature of prayer. Prayer is not just
(11:44):
about getting things done or getting our will done in heaven,
but it's about communing with God. And I think that's
often lost in American culture where we're very pragmatic. I
think the late RC Sproul said the only philosophy America
ever invented was pragmatism. We're just all about getting things done,
and we're interested in prayer as long as stuff's changing
(12:05):
and moving and all of that. But what about communing?
With God. It's not just about getting a chore done, uh, a,
a mountain moved or whatever it is, it's being with
God and sometimes some seasons of life, I think about
the hardest seasons of life I've been through, and simply
being in the presence of God and resting in God's
(12:25):
love and God's presence through prayer, and as the psalms
tell us, cast your cares upon the Lord, and that's
something that we've got to continually do.
And I would say if you cast your cares upon
the Lord today, and then you find tomorrow the same
cares are there, I wouldn't stop casting them on Him,
because I think that's where spiritual formation is taking place
(12:48):
and where God is strengthening us and meeting our needs,
and even if things outwardly don't change, and I hope
they do, but at the same time, I want to
be changed. I want to be more like God, and
so I would say, keep coming.
To him with those prayers, be mindful, be heartfelt, but
if you are repeating yourself because your circumstances are not changing,
(13:09):
I think those are still beautiful prayers.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
You know, one thing that might be helpful is to
use some, some prayers that you see and some devotional guides.
Or even a, you know, things like the book of
common prayer that the Anglican Church provides, uh, those have
lots and lots of model prayers for every occasion under
the sun, uh, and it might those, you know, using
(13:32):
some of those as guides, even just even just repeating
those out loud from time to time may help you
feel like you're not in a rut any longer, but
that doesn't, as long as it doesn't, I mean, some
people might say, well, it's not coming from your heart
if you're reading somebody else's words. Sure it is.
OK, there, so there, no, it just because they don't
(13:53):
always have to be your words. They can still reflect
what's in your heart and you can still be, and
you'll you can still pray with all of your heart, might, soul,
and strength, just like when you're singing a worship song.
You didn't write that song, but you agree with all
the words you're singing, so I guess.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Exactly. Mike. Well, we'll think about Amazing Grace. Can you
not sing that in a meaningful way, even though you
weren't a slave owner from hundreds of years ago? I mean,
the beautiful thing about Newton and Amazing Grace is even
though he was a particular man at a particular time,
Committing particular sins that none of us have committed, and
yet at the same time, it's written in such a
(14:28):
way that it touches upon fundamental shared human experience. And
obviously the whole Psalms, those aren't, we didn't write those,
and yet they're divinely inspired through humans, real times, real places,
real problems, and they're our guide for us, and even though,
you know, for for example, if somebody
Doesn't come from a liturgical tradition, and they don't appreciate that,
(14:49):
they can say, well, OK, the book of common prayer
is not the Bible, that's true, but what's beautiful about it, again,
it's sort of like uh a pastor praying a prayer
in church on Sunday. You might value that more cause
it seems, quote unquote, spontaneous, but at the same time,
that's their prayer, that's not inspired scripture either, so I
think what you have and
(15:10):
Liturgical guides like the Book of Cabrera, again, is some
incredibly powerful, beautiful prayers that administered to saints for hundreds
of years that are theologically rich, and if it's helpful
to you, I think it's something that you could greatly
benefit from as well.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Very good. 888-564-6173 is the number to call us today
with your questions. And I will go to JJ, who's
listening on the Kwave app in Newport Beach. Hey, JJ,
what's your question for Mike Chaddick and Scott Ray?
Yeah, hi, pastors. Um, my question today was, uh, what
kind of steps can a person take if they wanna
(15:48):
be a pastor?
Is this, are you calling on your on for yourself?
You want to be a pastor?
Yeah, I've, I've been like praying about it and stuff,
and that's something that's been like, I feel like that's
something that's been hitting me as a kid. As a kid,
I was a raised Roman Catholic and I felt like
I wanted to be a priest, but then when I
(16:09):
came and was born again. Uh, but after a while,
I felt like, man, I really like reading the word
and teaching it and uh.
Explaining it especially to like people and stuff like that,
so I mean. All right, Mike, we'll start with you.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah, so are you involved in a local church right now?
Uh, yeah, I am.
Yeah, so I would say, I mean, a great first
step is to have a meeting with the pastor there
and ask them because, again, there's a lot of different
Christian denominations and traditions, and they'll have different pathways as
to what that looks like. For example, some traditions will
(16:48):
require that you go to seminary, get an MDiv, other
ones won't, other ones are looking more for hands-on, like,
immediately we want to see that you're serving and all that,
but what I would encourage, and, and again, you may
be doing this already, but
You know, just begin serving when just begin praying and
seeking the Lord on this and look for needs in
in the body of Christ because at the end of
the day, a pastor is a servant. And that's really
(17:11):
what it is. It's not a call to the top
of the chain, it's a call to the bottom of
the change to be the servant of all. So I'd
say serve. I got my start personally.
Vacuuming carpets on weekends at a mega church, which was
not glamorous at all. And I had to like beg
for them to let me because I hadn't been at
the church long enough to allow me at that point.
And I just, that's what I did. And all I knew,
(17:32):
and I, I didn't want to be a pastor at
that point or anything. I just knew I wanted to
serve God and I just wanted to show God that
I was grateful and just loved him so much for
what he did for me.
And to be honest with you, that is how it
started and people saw me, gave me more opportunities to
serve in more ways, and eventually, you know, led to
Bible College, and then while there, it's it, I noticed
(17:55):
people started coming to me and they wanted to learn
from me, and they said, wow, you're able to explain
that the way that stands out, and then that, I
think the Lord started pointing that out, and then, you know,
went to college and seminary and all that kind of stuff.
But like I said, it can be a different pathway.
Depending on your church, but I think just begin serving
right where you are, just see the needs and the
(18:15):
body of Christ, and whether people see you or don't,
don't worry about getting some job where you're visible or
something like that, you know, a lot of people, um, they,
I think they want that part of being a pastor.
Oh wow, they're up there, they're visible, people respect them,
appreciate them. I'd say, you know, it might be good.
To find those jobs behind the scenes, you're not doing
it for anybody but the Lord, and you know that,
(18:38):
and maybe schedule a meeting with a church leader or
pastor and just kinda ask them, hey, in our tradition
and our culture, what does that pathway look like?
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Scott,
you know, this is too much of a softball for
a seminary professor, uh, but, uh, I think, you know, JJ,
it's really it's really important to do some of the
things that Mike is suggesting.
Uh, to serve in ways that are not gonna be visible,
they're not gonna, they're not gonna, uh, satisfy your ego, uh,
any anything like that. Um, and, but the other part
(19:09):
of this is I think, you know, you can start
thinking now about, you know, what, what, what are your gifts?
What do you, what do you really like to do? How,
how do you like to serve, you know, most often.
Um, and I think, you know, Mike's right, there, there's
there's lots of parts, you know, the pastor is not
just about teaching and preaching the word. There's a there's
(19:29):
a lot of stuff in pastoring that is, you know,
just as ground level servanthood that's not, you know, it's
not particularly, um, you know, it's not, it's not pretty often, uh,
people's people have messy things going on in their lives
and they're looking for spiritual direction from that, uh, but
I think to, to, to do what you can.
(19:49):
And I think the earlier you can start the better
to to assemble as you know, as many of the
tools as you can to help you uh administer to people, uh,
to teach the word, to understand the word and to
teach it well, uh, you know, in my view that
involves getting as much formal theological education as is feasible
for you, uh, and I think I, I don't know anybody.
(20:13):
Who's been in the pastorate for for a long time
who looks back on their seminary experience and said, you know,
I wish I hadn't done that most people who forgo
that look back on it and say, you know.
I miss, I miss something important by, by not sharpening
my tools and getting all that I could, uh, because
(20:34):
what we found, and, you know, this was true of,
of a lot of us, uh, and I think I
like this may be true true of you once, once
you finish seminary, the idea of going back to school
for further training, you just, life is too full to
do that. You, you can't take on the demands of
a pastor, especially if you have 6 kids at home.
Uh, you know, further education is not really something, you know,
(20:56):
you may, you may not need that, but even if
you did, chances are unlikely that you were gonna be,
you're gonna be able to find the bandwidth to do that.
So we, we encourage people to get their, get their
educational tools earlier rather than later, uh, and to.
Do that in conjunction with serving in a local church
where you were under the authority of a of a
senior pastor or a pastoral staff or of some of
(21:19):
the elders who they can they can speak into your
life and they can tell you whether they think you
have the gifts and the skills and the temperament to
be a good pastor, the temperament too. Oh, I said
the temperament is that that that may be the most
important part of it because some some people they're just
not wired that way.
(21:39):
Uh, and there's no shame in that. Uh, I mean,
God's wired people to do different things to contribute to
his kingdom, and there, and in God's economy there is
no hierarchy of callings, you know, the pastor is not
doing something more valuable for God's kingdom than the business person, uh,
or the physician or the school teacher or the plumber
or anybody else, you know, Paul's very clear in the
(21:59):
New Testament that in in whatever you do in your work,
you do it heartily and it's the Lord Christ whom
you are serving.
Now if God and there's some there's some roles that
people are better suited for than others, uh, you know,
and I tell my seminary students that, you know, you know,
maybe you're well suited for this, maybe God is moving
(22:20):
you in this direction, but be prepared for the fact
that the deeper you get into this, you may find
out that you're not as wired for this as you
think you are, and there's no, there is no shame.
In that because if somebody who decides they're, you know,
they step down from a pastorate or they, you know,
they decide they're not gonna do that, you're not leaving
the ministry all believers are in full-time ministry, full-time service
(22:44):
regardless of where they get a paycheck from, yeah, and
you make a good point because what if you get
into it and then after a few years you say,
you know what, this isn't for me, and you kind of.
Never mind, you, you, you resign, whatever. I mean, again,
that there's lots of keys. It's not just, I mean,
it's great that you enjoy reading the Bible, JJ, and
teaching it and everything, but yeah, I've heard, you know,
(23:06):
get involved with the Sunday school at your church, maybe
if you can teach kindergartner, what, what have I heard,
if you can teach kindergartner the Bible, if you can
hold their attention, then maybe you can, uh, teach anybody. Mike.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Yeah, I think, uh, just to touch on the temperament thing,
you know, I think that that's, that's far more significant
than I realized at the time, just how important that is.
And I think another good thing, cause again, on the
one end, you're wanting to learn, hey, do, you know,
do I have the giftings, the callings, the temperament to
do it?
But I think another great thing to do is sit
(23:39):
down with a pastor and really ask them about their
experience and what the job really entails, cause I, I
think everyone and I had this too, um, they have
an idea of what it is, and very often that's,
it's different. It's not, it's not the same thing, and,
you know, in some circles, for example, it's just all teaching,
(24:02):
you know, and really I find that sort of
The tip of the iceberg, that's the cherry on top,
but so much of what you're doing is not that,
or at least not in that sort of sermon or
lecture classroom format you're dealing with starting out outside of
the church, and while the church is not a business,
(24:22):
it does business, just like a family has to deal
with finances and making executive decisions and administrative duties and
Uh, human resources and personnel and hiring and firing and
all that, all that kind of stuff, and obviously it
depends on, you know, the, the size of the church
and who you have and all that, but odds are
you're gonna be doing like 100 other things, and I
(24:46):
think a lot of people, they have a romantic view
of what being a pastor will be and they get
into it and they're shocked.
Uh, to find out, not that it's bad, but that
it's just far more complicated, complex, and diverse than they realized,
and they might have been a great teacher. They could
be a group they could preach great sermons and teach
(25:08):
great classes, but they don't have the gifting and the
temperament to handle all of the other things that come
their way.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
I'd say, you know, if you aspire to be a
spiritual leader for people, you have to make sure that
people are actually following you too, because there's, you know,
there are lots of leaders who think they're leaders, but
nobody's following them and that's an important consideration and you
have to sometimes it just involves looking in the mirror.
And say, you know, may maybe I'm better at other
things than this and I wouldn't, I wouldn't want somebody
(25:41):
to be attracted to the pastor because they think it's
objectively of more value to God's kingdom and something else
that they could be doing, uh, because I mean.
I've got, I've got more seminary students that I know
what to do with who say things like I left
my business to go serve the Lord full time and
I want to say, what did you think you were
doing with your business? You know, you were also serving
(26:03):
the Lord full time in that it was just a
different arena of service.
Yeah.
All right, uh, JJ, what do you think of these answers?
You sure you still want to do it?
Uh, yeah, I think the key thing I'm taking away
from here is service, like serving others and like the
same thing that Jesus did with his apostles where he
(26:23):
washed their feet, you know, it's that kind of attitude
that you go into it, but also definitely still a
lot to meditate on. I love all the perspective and
the deep answers. Thank you guys.
All right, awesome. JJ, thanks for calling in today. 888-564-6173.
Let me read a question that was sent in online.
This one is from Misty. She writes, I spent some
(26:45):
time learning about Native American and Polynesian cultures, and I
currently live on the island of Oahu.
I'm learning about traditions including haka, which is a traditional
dance and chant calling on ancestors for strength, wisdom, and guidance. My,
my Christian understanding is that anything that invokes spirits is
evil and should not be practiced. Is this true?
(27:08):
And included, I've never done these practices myself because it's
not part of my natural culture, but I have observed
them many times and often get very emotional. Is this
something my spirit is sensitive to, and should I not
be in the presence of these practices? Mahaloui. Thank you,
says Misty, to which I reply, Aole pilichia. I think
(27:29):
that's right. I don't know. Mike, what do you tell Misty?
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Yeah, well, I mean, right at the very end there,
I mean, it sounds like her her spirit.
is being provoked by this thing, and I would say
don't ignore that. I don't think that's a good thing.
I think obviously, I think all cultures have various
pagan practices and whatnot, and I think there there's a
difference between the people who are doing it and the
(27:56):
reasons they're doing it, and then somebody who comes from
outside the culture and
Sees what's going on, um, for example, like the apostle
Paul would have to deal with this in the Greco-Roman
world where people were eating meat, offered to idols, some
are doing it with the mindset of this is we're
worshiping demons, we're worshiping false gods. Um, I think of yoga,
(28:19):
for example, in America, right?
For many people, yoga has been stripped of its Hindu
spiritual roots, and it's simply, they actually literally just do
the stretching and stuff, but for other people, it carries
with them those, um, spiritual connotations. Consciously they're thinking about
these other things. So I think, you know, it would
(28:39):
be great to dialogue with you further about.
Your experience, because part of your spirit being provoked, it
might have been provoked on their behalf, like if they
are attempting to do this and connect with ancestors through
pagan practice. Obviously, I think rightly, you're grieved and you're
wanting to see them come out of that. If, however,
you're talking about for yourself.
Like, is this something I should see or do, then
(29:00):
that I would say that's a different matter.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Scott, 30 seconds or do you want to take it
on the other side of the break? Um, I just,
I can give in 30 seconds. I think that there
may be some, you know, some of these practices that
are just they're just cultural things that may be a
case of no harm, no foul.
This one sounds to me like it's a pagan ancestor worship,
you know, the Old Testament has a lot to say
about that, that we don't engage in in practices that
(29:23):
are a part of religions outside of Christian faith. Yeah,
but then somebody might argue, well, what about Halloween here
in America? Is it OK to do that?
I would say that as long as, as long as
we're clear about what's, you know, what's what's real, uh,
because the demonic world is real, but we're not really
participating in that in, uh, in most Halloween celebrations, right?
(29:46):
And the reason I'm bringing up Halloween.
August is because the decorations are already going up all
over the place, isn't that crazy? Misty, thank you for
sending in your question from Honolulu, and we'll be back
with more of your questions. What do you want to
ask us today? 888-564-6173. Can't wait to hear from you.
(30:19):
We are back on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is our number.
My name is Brian Perez. Mike Chaddick, the senior pastor
of Image Church in San Juan Capistrano, is answering your
questions today. So is Scott Ray. He is a professor
at the Talbot School of Theology.
At Biola University, Professor of philosophy and Christian ethics. So
(30:41):
if you've got, uh, questions along that line, that'd be
great to hear from you today. Looks like Dakota's got
one calling in from Florida, listening on the Kwave app. Hey, Dakota,
welcome to Pastor's Perspective.
Hi, thank you for taking my call. So, yeah, I had,
was listening to a conversation over the weekend um regarding
(31:02):
um different things politically, but then it is spewed into
the topic of abortion. um.
Gentleman says, well, I don't believe in abortion because I'm
a Christian. Um,
The response is, well, based on Numbers chapter 5,
(31:23):
It seems like God actually promotes abortion.
And
If I were to, how, how would you go about
interpreting that and responding to it? Did he mention what
particular verses in Numbers chapter 5?
Well, there's a, uh, I think the latter half of it, um,
(31:43):
where it talks about if a woman is uh unfaithful,
has relations outside of her marriage, um, the husband believes
it to be so, uh, brings her before the priest,
they have a, uh, a ritual, um, and if she
is guilty, then she is to be cursed and not
(32:04):
have any.
not be able to bear children any longer and also
have a miscarriage in that time. Um, if she's not.
Uh, guilty then continue with the pregnancy and
Um, I don't recall there having any other consequences on
the husband for bringing that charge against her if she
(32:26):
was not wrong other than
Um, the tide, like the RAM and
Some other object, OK, um.
Doctor Scott Ray, what do you say? Well, let me
say this first of all before we get into this, uh,
in Numbers 5 that, you know, I'm a Christian and
(32:47):
I believe that abortion is wrong, but it's, I, I, I,
I can make I can make a good argument that
abortion is wrong without dependence upon my Christian faith.
Uh, because I think you can make a good philosophical
argument that the unborn child, even, even human embryos, are
full persons with the with the right to life.
(33:08):
Um, so I don't, I don't, yeah, Christian faith helps,
I think helps buttress that view, but it, it is,
it's consistent with Christian faith, but it's not dependent on it.
So that may be a, a helpful distinction. Uh, this is, I,
I admit this is one of the more curious passages in,
in the Mosaic law, and I think that what helps
(33:30):
me understand this is the right at the very end
of Numbers 5 in verse 31.
The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing if he's
not had an affair, but the woman will bear the
consequences of her sin, and I see this more as a,
as a natural outgrowth of the the consequences of of
a woman's sin here. I don't think that God is against, uh,
(33:53):
you know, is, is against the the unborn.
Uh, but I think this in a natural miscarriage is
different than an induced abortion. This is, I think, referring
to a natural miscarriage that would result from a variety
of factors that that could have a bearing on how
the how the woman's responding to this.
So I, I would see it as, as something quite different,
(34:16):
and I, so I don't think, I don't think the
charge against God here stands that he is somehow against
the unborn and somehow is complicit in killing the unborn. Uh,
this is simply, I think, a natural outworking of, uh,
consequences of this unfaithful woman sin,
Mike Chad.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yeah, I mean, it's a difficult passage for sure, for
a number of reasons. One, by the way, is actually
translation of the Hebrew, different translations translated differently. Some
Uh, there's some vague euphemistic language used. Some think it
refers to miscarriage, others do not, that it's simply the,
the belly swelling, the thighs, the thigh will fall. It's
(35:00):
strange language, so first of all, there is a genuine
difficulty in translation and not everyone agrees. For example, we
may not even be dealing with that miscarriage or abortion
in this particular passage, but hypothetically, let's assume that that
is what it's doing, um.
Number 111 key difference would be this is.
(35:20):
In the context of this passage, this is seen as
divine judgment upon something, not humans like, oh, hey, I
just don't want a kid, so I'm gonna kill it. No,
this is somebody suspects their wife of having been unfaithful,
but they don't know for sure, and so they're gonna
render judgment to God. That's certainly a far cry from
(35:42):
everybody taking life into their own hands. That's a different thing.
And secondly, though, obviously it's extremely weird and strange to
a modern American, ironically, this is also partly a preventative passage,
because if you study the ancient Near East, what you
find out in a legitimately violent patriarchal world, if a
man suspected his wife of cheating, they could just kill her,
(36:03):
and it's no problem. You could just kill her, but
whereas this is actually protecting women, ironically, uh, because it's
actually saying, hey, rather than you in your rage.
Killing your wife because you think you're just, you're suspicious.
You didn't see it, you don't know for sure. You
think and you just, and you don't like living with
the shame or the humiliation or whatever it is of
(36:23):
being a man who's been cheated on, so instead you're
gonna render judgment to God. And so, I'd say it's
actually sort of a preventative passage, but just to point out,
and for further study, um, especially if this is a
passage that
You know, is intriguing to you and you feel like
you want to do further research. Um, take a look
at what other translations do with numbers 5. You can
(36:45):
start looking at various Hebrew commentaries on this, that'll dive
into the language and you'll actually find out it's a
very tough thing to base a position on or come with, come.
away with some doctrinal statement, like Scott saying, I would,
I would build a broader case for that from, from
other places, both biblically, also historically, the early Christians were
(37:06):
very clearly against abortion. You see this in the didica,
it's against abortion. Christian women were known for rescuing abandoned babies,
because again, abortion was practiced.
In the first century, but it was so dangerous, people
opted for infanticide, not out of any moral thing, but
they just practically, medically, women were more likely gonna die
if they had an abortion, because the tools were primitive,
(37:28):
so they would abandon them in the wilderness to to
Be killed by the elements or wild animals, and Christian
women would go and rescue these babies. So there's always been,
not only is there a biblical ethic of life, we
have a strong historical ethic of life that goes back
to the very beginning of the Christian movement. It's really
in our roots. It's in our DNA as Christians.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Doctor,
you know, Brian, there's one place in Exodus 21 where
that translation makes a huge difference.
Um, and it's, it's the passage where if, if, if
a man, if you see two men, uh, two men
fighting and a woman comes upon them and tries to
break it up, uh, and she is injured and then
then and and either causes a miscarriage or it can,
(38:11):
the more the better rendering is causes her to give
birth prematurely.
That's just that's probably that's it's a better translation there
and I think that I wonder if that that's possible
if that's the case here as well. So, uh, it's just,
it's a, it's a con if that's the case it'd
be a consequence of sin, but it would not be
anything catastrophic for the unborn child.
(38:35):
Dakota, thank you for your phone call today here on
Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173. Delina, gonna talk to you after we
speak with Patty, who is, uh, watching us on YouTube
in San Marcos. Patsy, what is your question for us today?
Hi, um, thank you for your program. This is quite
(38:58):
the intense question, but it maybe ties into the last question, um.
Why
Is it so hard, and 3 men are listening to me.
I know women have troubles too, but it appears that
(39:22):
it's so hard for a man.
To be faithful to a wife and I, I mean,
so David, concubines, I just wonder your take on that.
And is it harder today because of the internet? OK.
(39:47):
Mike Chadwick, we'll start with you.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Wow, that's a hard one. I can go to. I
could just say men are terrible, but, um, no, I
don't think that's it. I mean, I think obviously.
We're all falling, right? Men and women are falling, I think.
Men and women do have different tendencies. For example, um,
(40:10):
if you look at the number statistically of violent crimes committed,
it's overwhelmingly by men, and you could say, well, you know, it's,
there's certain sins that, and again, I, I know, uh,
and Scott probably knows this too, there's a lot of debate, uh,
over that, how much of that is culture, how much
of that is genetics and predisposition and
All that kind of stuff, but I mean, there's certain
things that men are prone to, so I don't disagree
(40:33):
with that, but I would also say obviously culture is significant.
I think most of history.
Um, it was seen as OK for, for men to
have obviously have more than one wife. Polygamy has been
the dominant form of marriage, and most of the history
of the world really before Christianity comes in and starts
promoting this strange thing called monogamy, which, you know, many
(40:55):
people accept that as normal, but if you look at historically,
it was very abnormal. People are like,
What in the world are you talking about? What, how
could one man have one woman? So, it's ironic today
when people criticize Christianity in the Bible for being against women,
and it's, it's all about men and patriot. Ironically, uh,
no pagan man is gonna wanna hear you only get
one woman for life. That, that's definitely not something I
(41:18):
think men in their sinful following condition would want. So
I think in much of history, that's been the case,
and I think Christianity.
Has given men not only sort of the, the ethos,
the ethic to be faithful, to be covenantal, um, but
also the power. This is such an important thing as
(41:39):
a Christian, God doesn't simply say, hey, sex outside of
marriage is wrong, and if you get married, you need
to be faithful to one wife. He also gives us
the power of the Holy Spirit. We're not just left
on our own.
To fend for ourselves. So I think obviously the fallen
nature that's part of it is men. I do think
men are prone to some things, although I think I,
(42:00):
I see a change in culture where women are being
encouraged to take on more of, unfortunately, some of the
various sins and mentalities that men have had, which were
not good in the first place and are not good
for women today, uh, but those are, those are a
few thoughts I'd love to hear what Scott has to say.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Well, for one, Patsy, it, it sounds like you, you
didn't said this out loud, but if, if this is
something you're grappling with in your own marriage, I'm so
sorry to hear that. And that's just, that's deeply saddening, uh, if,
if that's the case, and we'll be in our prayers,
you'll be in our prayers for that. Um, second, I
want to be, I just want to be careful that
(42:39):
we don't overgeneralize about men and men too broadly. Um,
I think there are there are some tendencies that Mike has,
has brought out.
Um, and I think maybe maybe one of them might
be that men tend to be more visually stimulated than women,
and so the, the prevalence of pornography, I think is
(43:00):
a temptation for men in a way that's different than
for women, which is why we, we, you know, we
emphasize so frequently that men have to, have to be
so careful with what they take in because it's I
think that particularly in this area sort of garbage in
garbage out.
Uh, and we wanna make sure that what you, what
you take in, you you so you carefully monitor that.
(43:22):
Um, and it may be, uh, I'm, I'm just thinking
out loud here, but it may be that there are
things that affect women after menopause that don't affect men.
Uh, that may have to do with sexual desire, um,
and so may, may, that may be part of the,
part of the temptation for men to look outside their marriage, uh,
(43:44):
for that. I, I could be, I could, I'm not
a physician. I could be wrong about that, uh, but, um, I, I,
you know, I know, I know in my, you know,
I'm sure you're the same way. I know the vast
majority of my close friends have been faithful to their
wives for decades.
Uh, not, not to say that it's not without a struggle, but, uh,
(44:08):
you know, it's, I think, to paint, I think to
paint the picture that, you know, this is something that,
you know, all, all, all men are tempted to stray, uh, I,
I just, I just don't think that's true, uh, because
I think I know there are, there are lots of,
there are lots of good men who are faithful to
their wives and they're good good fathers to their children, uh,
(44:29):
and they, you know, they do things right in their lives.
You know it's not to say they don't make mistakes,
but I think it's different, you know, some, some it's
different having a, you know, having a, you know, a,
a brief moment of passion that gets away from, from
you and an ongoing sort of, you know, another full
relationship that go, you know, goes on for months if
(44:50):
not years. Those are, those are two different things, uh,
and I think the, the affairs that involve in intentionality
and planning and deception.
You know, that's, that's a different ball game, it seems
to me, than somebody who
You know, on a business trip, you know, steps out
of line and then vows never to do that again. Mike.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Yeah, um, I mean, I definitely think culture is significant
because I, I think, you know, you think decades ago,
you think of the 1950s or something before the sexual revolution, um,
There, there was, I think very clearly a double standard
where if a man slept around, it wasn't, I mean,
either it wasn't necessarily bad or maybe he's even, you know,
(45:35):
he's a macho man or whatever, but if a woman
did the same thing culturally, that would be considered terrible
and horrendous, and she'd have the scarlet letter on her
head and all that kind of stuff. So I, I
do think culture makes a big difference. I mean, I
know growing up and
In my middle age years, I've thought a lot about
how I grew up and the people I grew up,
and that's how guys were. I mean, I did not
(45:57):
know many guys who were virtuous, loved God, were looking
to save themselves. I literally saw the opposite, you know,
and I think even biologically, there's a reason, right? Because, uh,
a man, apart from, you know, intervention through, you know,
birth control or society.
asserting laws regarding paternity and child sport and all that,
(46:21):
a man can go from person to person and not
bear that consequence of reproduction in his own body, whereas,
of course, prior to um the 1960s and the pill,
a woman would have to deal with that, so even culturally,
it was just kind of like, hey, you can't kind
of can't do that. So I, I do think culture
(46:41):
um is significant, but to Scott's point, I mean, again,
it's
I think there's, I don't think there's anything in men
that means they cannot be different, they cannot change, they
cannot overcome, certainly not with the gospel, you know, I mean,
I know non-believers that, you know, not necessarily for a
virtuous reason, but just honestly, they were, they didn't want
(47:02):
to have children out of wedlock. They saw friends who
were at 18 years old, paying child support and having
to work multiple jobs, uh, they saw people getting diseases and,
and they just said to themselves, you know what, I
don't want that.
You know, it wasn't for God, it wasn't for the
love of God, it wasn't virtue, it was just very practical. So,
I definitely think people can, I think men can, and
(47:23):
I think how much more somebody who recognizes that sex
is something that God created, and he created it to
be between one man and one woman in the covenant
of marriage as a picture of the gospel. And I
think if we teach young men this, uh, from an
early age, and they're following Christ, I, I think that
changes everything.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Well, you know, and today too, it's, you know, the
trend toward polyamory today, which is what we traditionally call polygamy.
The trend toward polyamory is equal opportunity offender. I mean, there,
there are just as many women involved in polyamorous relationships
as there are men, and so that that may be
part of the culture that's changing a bit.
And that women feel much more freed up to engage
(48:08):
in these sort of multiple relationships, uh, as you know,
it was in the past it was mostly with men.
I do think maybe the the trend toward polygamy in, in,
in biblical times, I think maybe there maybe was more
was less of that than we might think because, you know,
the average, the average person in in the ancient world
was desperately poor.
(48:29):
And it took resources to be able to support multiple
wives and concubines and then, you know, the harem, and
we only, we only really hear about those in relationship
to the kings and the people the the very well
off who had the means to support them and I, I,
I just, I don't think it was quite as widespread
as as we might think. Um, so, and for some
(48:51):
reason that that I think is still is a mystery
to me because the scripture really doesn't address it. God allowed.
Some of those things. I don't think he ever sanctioned it,
but he did allow those things perhaps as part of
a safety net for women, uh, whose husbands were, you know,
were dying on the battlefield.
All right, uh, Patsy, thank you for your phone call
today here on Pastor's Perspective. And look, another call from Oahu. Delina,
(49:15):
thanks so much for calling in today. How can we
help you?
Hi, yeah, thank you so much, pastors. We must be
the #1 radio program in Oahu. I mean, we just
got 2 calls in one day. That's amazing. All right. Delina, sorry,
go ahead. What's your question? Yes, no, it's OK. So, long,
very long story short, I've been praying for an opportunity
to get in touch with a very specific Muslim woman.
(49:37):
She lives in Tajikistan currently, and her husband lives here
in Hawaii. And so the Lord made that miracle happen.
I
FaceTime her twice a week, and she's learning English. So
I'm trying to be 1 John 3:18, not loving with
my words, but in action and in truth to show
her Jesus. But the question is, how do I deal
(50:00):
with instances where she'll say, oh, you know, may Allah
bless you, and I pray for you and, you know,
Allah be with you. I don't want to rebuke it
or correct it right off the bat cause she doesn't
know I'm trying to preach Jesus to her, but
How do I go about those things? It's a little
difficult sometimes and I don't wanna come off as rude
(50:21):
when I don't don't respond to it, you know, so. Yeah, Scott,
start with you. I would say I'm praying to Jesus
for you. Mm.
And, and say, hey, you know, let's, you know, let's,
you know, uh, you know, we can, we can pray,
we can pray on my playing field as easily as
we can on yours, uh, and I'm, I'm praying to,
to my God who manifested himself in Jesus and who
(50:43):
is the mediator between God and human beings, uh, and,
you know, hope, hope, you know, that may, may spark
a discussion. I wouldn't say it in a kind of
an in your face way. I, I tell her I,
you know, I appreciate, I appreciate the thoughts and I
appreciate your prayers.
Uh, and there's, I think there's, you know, although I,
I do think Allah and Yahweh God are two different.
(51:04):
There's two very different portraits of God, uh, but they
do have, they do have lots of things in common
as well, um, so I wouldn't, I, I would do
it in a way that alienates her, uh, but I say,
you know, in, in, in my, in my faith, I pray,
I pray to Jesus for people. I've been praying to
Jesus for you for some, for some time.
(51:25):
Something something like that. Yeah, Mike, I may, I may
need a little bit more of a pastoral twist than
what I'm giving it, Mike. Go for it, Mike.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
Yeah, I like, I like Scott's approach. I mean, I
don't think every time you have to correct somebody or say, oh, hey,
that's wrong. I mean, obviously you can do that, but
I think you're, as you're getting to know each other,
stuff is coming, their beliefs are coming out. I just say,
remember you're learning, you know, part of love is understanding.
So, just understanding where a person is coming from, what
they believe. I mean, what's interesting is, uh, Muslims believe
(51:57):
in Jesus, but they don't believe Jesus is the Son
of God. So Jesus is a revered figure in Islam.
My brother-in-law is from Iran and was raised Muslim. We
have these talks all the time, you know, cause a
lot of
Of, you know, Western Christians don't realize that. They think, oh,
you know, Muslims hate Jesus and whatever, and that's not true.
Jesus is a prophet. He's a revered figure. So I think,
(52:20):
you know, as you're talking and, you know, maybe that
moment is not the time, if you're ending the conversation,
may all the list you well, wait a minute, all
is not real. Um, I think, find ways to talk
about Jesus. I, I think obviously Jesus is at the
center of Christianity. We do not preach an idea, we
preach a person.
We preach Jesus Christ. And so I think having as
(52:41):
much as you can, like, who do you think Jesus is,
you know, and, and listen to that and just, and
then respond, hey, this is who I believe Jesus is.
And I think that that can be a great conversation
that you might actually find um with many Muslims, if,
if you approach it, I think in the right attitude,
they're willing to have that.
Speaker 1 (53:01):
What do you think, Delina? That's really good, yeah, and
um I appreciate your, your feedback. And if I may
add one really quick question as well, another area that
I also struggle with is she will
Uh, bless her heart, she may gossip at times about
her husband, and, uh, that I also get stuck in like,
(53:23):
oh my gosh, I know this is not OK, and
she'll go on and on. I don't know how to
stop that. But I'll pray about it, and I like
what you all said about just kind of being light
without force. So just got to be salt.
In my conversations, so yeah, thank you, pastor. That's a
great question, Delina, because we're encouraged to have relationships with
(53:46):
our non-Christian friends, but when they start doing things like,
I mean, sometimes we get questions, should I go to
parties with my non-Christian friends, etc. But in this case,
they're having conversation and she brings up gossip about her husband.
How should a Christian deal with that, Scott? I'd, I'd
say talk positively about yours to her.
And and otherwise I'd say that's that's probably not a
(54:08):
hill I'm gonna die on, uh, because I wanna maintain
the relationship and I, you know, she may not have
anybody else to talk to about the things that she's
struggling with with her husband Mike, one minute.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
Yeah, I think, you know, you can, there, there's a
fine line between somebody's just sharing some genuine grief or
difficulties with you, and I think as Christians, yes, we
want to avoid gossip and slander. So I think kind
of discerning the intent behind it, like, is her goal
just to make him look bad and she's trashing him
and all that, or is she someone who genuinely
just looking for some help and some guidance, and this
(54:44):
is an opportunity for you to speak the gospel into
that marriage situation. Well, you know, the Bible says, you know,
and like, kind of some Christian ethic regarding marriage and
this kind of thing. So I think it's, it's really
good that you're mindful of that, and it can always
go that way.
Um, but to be honest, I think there's times where,
where women can talk to other women, they're not bad
(55:05):
mouthing their husbands at all, but marriage is difficult. As
a man, there's I'll talk to other men about, hey, like,
how can we be better husbands and faithful, like, we're
going through this, you know, and I'm very careful not
to make my wife look bad, but, but I also
think being authentic and open that we do struggle as well.
We're not perfect people, we're broken people. We need a
(55:25):
savior as much as anyone.
Speaker 1 (55:27):
All right, Delena, thank you for your phone call today
on Pastor's Perspective, and we've run out of time. That
always happens. We're gonna archive today's episode on Facebook, YouTube,
and Apple Podcasts and Spotify if you missed any part
of it or just want to hear it again or
share it with your friends, and we will be back
tomorrow between 3 and 4 p.m. Pacific time.
And I'm saying Pacific time cause obviously we've got a
(55:49):
lot of calls in Hawaii today, where it's what, uh, well,
Hawaii time, I guess, 2 hours difference. Anyway, God bless
you guys, we'll be back tomorrow here on Pastor's Perspective.
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