September 29, 2025 • 56 mins
Pastors' Perspective is a one-hour call-in program where listeners can call in and get answers to questions about the Bible, Christianity, family, and life. The program is live Monday through Friday from 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM Pacific. You can call 888-564-6173 to ask your questions.
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Speaker 1 (00:17):
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez,
and we're gonna be here in the studio for the
next hour today, answering questions you might have about the Bible,
the Christian faith, something you heard at church this weekend
that you're wondering, that maybe you'd never heard before, maybe
a different take on some passage of scripture that you
had always interpreted to mean one thing, and then your
(00:38):
pastor said, Nope, it actually means this, and you're thinking, Wait, what? Huh?
So call in and let's talk about it. 888-564-6173 is
the number to call. You can watch us today on Facebook, YouTube,
and Instagram too, and you can also send in your
questions to us online, but the best way to get
an answer today is to call in at 888-564-61.
(01:01):
73. And answering your questions today, we've got the lead
pastor of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, that is Char Broderson.
How are you doing, Char? Brian Perez. I'm doing very well.
Thank you. So happy to hear that, sir. How are you?
I'm doing well. We've also got Justin Thomas. He's the
president of the Calvary Chapel Bible College in Bradenton, Florida.
Did I get that right?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
You did. Oh good.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Wonderful. Now, speaking of Thomas, a quick shout out to
Thomas and Paul, to listeners of Pastor's perspective whom I
met this weekend. I was walking across, uh, a parking lot, uh, the, uh,
Home Depot there in Lake Forest. I was walking across
the parking lot and uh.
This guy pulls up in his car. He's like, Hey,
aren't you Brian from Pastors? I'm like, yeah. So he
(01:45):
pulled over. We talked for, you know, 1520 minutes or something,
and then this other guy, he drives around and he
kind of does a double take over at, you know,
where Thomas and I are speaking, and he, he parks
his car, he gets out and he's like, Wait, aren't
you Brian from Pastors? And I'm like, yes.
And so it was just really fun. And so to
meet these two guys who didn't know each other, it
(02:05):
was so we had like a little three-man fellowship there
for a few minutes. So Thomas and Paul, nice meeting
you guys. Paul, by the way, works at the Chipotle,
that's right there where the Home Depot is in Lake Forest,
so stop in and say hi to Paul. But that
was just fun. That is fun. Yes. All right, so
888-564-6173 is our number.
(02:28):
We've got some questions that were sent in online, but
let's start off on the phones right away with Lourdes,
who's calling in from California, and she's got a Halloween question,
it looks like. We are, uh, what, 1 month and
2 days away from Halloween. What did you want to
ask us today, Lourdes?
Good afternoon pastors. Thank you for taking my call. Yeah,
(02:49):
I have a question, um, sorry.
No, go ahead. Can you hear me? Yeah. OK. I
have a question. So my niece, um, actually invited me
to one of her baby's first birthday, and I'm just
gonna do like a Halloween theme party. So I'm like
calling to see your, you guys' perspective on that. Um, I,
(03:09):
I feel like, um, I wanna go, but then again
it's like if it's Halloween theme, it's not something I celebrate,
to tell you the truth, and I just wanted to
get you guys' perspective on that. So.
When you, when you say a Halloween theme, do you
mean like a scary Halloween theme or it's just everybody
who's gonna be dressing like Disney princesses or what's the?
(03:32):
Um, no, it's, it's a, it's, um, just Halloween theme,
like however you wanna come dressed. Yeah. OK, sure, we'll
start with you. Yeah, I think in a situation like this,
I think we can use, clearly use Jesus as our example.
And I think in the gospels we see Jesus going
where people are gathered, and there are people gathered at these,
(03:54):
you know, dinners or these gatherings that are far from God.
They are not people who
Um, are necessarily, you know, seeking God, their priorities are not,
and values are not Jesus's priorities and values, and yet
Jesus is in the midst of them, and he, um,
you know, just from Jesus' own lifestyle, what we know
of him, he served people and he, uh, was in
(04:17):
conversation with them and drew out the deep desires of
their hearts in order to
Uh, you know, bring God's salvation to them. And so
I think Jesus is really our example, um, for, you know,
kind of these types of situations, you know, I think,
you know, there's nothing that's gonna happen, I think at
a Halloween party that's gonna affect you, um, you know,
(04:37):
by being there, right, like we don't believe that you
can receive some kind of spirit from being there. We
actually believe that the spirit that is in us, that
Holy Spirit is actually greater than any spirit.
Uh, any demonic spirit in the world. And so I
think you can actually go into that place in confidence
and even pray, Lord, be with me and with the
conversations that I have with people, be in such a
(04:59):
way that I could really see them for who they are,
that we could talk about deeper things and I would
have the opportunity to just share just about.
My own journey with Jesus and what God has done
for me, you know, so we were just talking about
this actually on Sunday, right? Going to those places where
people gather and just being there as a witness in
(05:20):
everything we do, right? It's not necessarily going there to evangelize,
but first and foremost just being a witness and seeing
what God might do through these conversations because something we're
not saying that Lord this should do is to show
up and just like sit in the corner and just
be like,
I don't like this. This isn't right and hoping that
that'll draw conversation because that might, I mean, she doesn't
(05:42):
want to be that person. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I
remember years ago, you know, John Piper is a funny, uh,
interesting character and sometimes his perspective on things is just like, wow,
like I did not expect him to say that, um.
But I remember one time he somebody was asking him like,
you know, should we, you know, allow our kids to,
you know, to learn about Santa Claus? And he just
kind of said like, it's kind of neither here nor there.
(06:04):
Like it's not going to do any harm, you know,
to talk about Santa Claus and allow them to just
enjoy like Christmas festivities. He said, but I want to
challenge you as a Christian actually to go above and
beyond what any kind of celebration.
that your neighbors would do, because the hope that we
have in Christ is so far greater than the kind
of hope or joy that Santa can bring, you know,
depending on whether we are naughty or nice, right? Like,
(06:28):
what we have in Jesus is so much better. How
could you actually outdo everyone around you in the way
that you celebrate Christmas and the blessing that you bring?
And so, Lourdes, I would just say like,
And I think that that's how Jesus was. I think
that he came into uh that kind of setting and
somehow people were drawn to him, right? Like they didn't
(06:48):
feel like, oh man, what a bummer Jesus decided to
show up. Like they were attracted to him, right? And so,
You know, obviously some of this might just take like
that self talk, that praying to the, you know, talking
with the Holy Spirit, like, help me, or just to
have the right attitude, like to love these people the
way that you love them, to see them the way
that you see them, you know, and use me. Justin,
(07:10):
what would you want?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yeah, I mean, I think Jesus put it pretty simply
when he said that we are salt and light. Ah,
both of those only have their significance if they're in
a place where salt and light are needed. And so
where there's corruption, where there's decay, that's where salt actually
does something. It stays the impact of that corruption and
in the same way, light is valuable in dark places.
(07:35):
And so this is never an excuse to be unwise,
and it's never an excuse for us to engage in
sinful behavior, but we don't have to worry about being contaminated. Instead,
we can lean into being a positive influence, an influence
that actually brings Jesus into the room and um and
so this is an opportunity to be salt and light
(07:57):
and you know, if your light is darkness, it's no good.
If you just, if you just go and you're just
like everybody else and you just keep your head down.
Uh, you, again, like, like Char said, you can do more, um, but,
but this is a, a celebration, it's, uh, and it's family,
and those are actually joy and family are, are Christian values.
They just have deeper meaning for us, more significance, and so.
(08:21):
You know, um, maybe, maybe don't put on a costume.
Maybe you don't need to do that, but, but go
and love the people that are there and see if
you can bring Jesus to the party.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah, I think just the fact too, Justin, you know,
that Lourdes is being invited to this is significant, right?
You're wanted. And so be you come there as you
representing all, you know, that you are in Jesus Christ, so.
Thank you so much for calling in today to Pastor's Perspective.
888-564-6173 is our number and here is Sam in Santa
(08:53):
Fe Springs. Welcome to the program, Sam.
Hey, Pastor Sara, how's everybody? Yeah, doing well, thank you.
How are you, Sam? Hi, Sam. Really good, really good.
Quick question, um, in the Garden of Eden, where there
was a Tree of Knowledge and the tree of good
and evil, right?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Um,
Speaker 1 (09:11):
how did Satan get in the garden? And what did
God test? Did God allow it and and wanted to test, uh, Eve?
What do you say,
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Justin?
Um, yeah, I mean, it really doesn't matter how you
go about this story, uh, eventually you're going to have
to deal with the fact that God is sovereign and
yet still the devil.
And so you, how however many steps you trace it back,
you're going to have to get comfortable with the fact
that something like Satan exists in the world that God
(09:45):
has created. However, there are some wrong ways to think
about this, and one of them is uh assuming that
the devil is just a mask that God wears to
do bad stuff or to test his people, you know, biblically.
Uh, God created all these things and saw that they
(10:06):
were good, and you're right, with Adam and Eve and
what happens in the garden, it's very quick when things
go bad, but also we have this serpent character and
we have to see him the same way. He was
a good thing that went bad, and he spreads that
bad to humanity because they take his side.
(10:26):
In desiring, instead of doing God's will to go their
own way, to a degree to be their own gods,
and that's, that's part of the problem. But there is
some truth in what you're saying, uh, not that Satan
was there to test Adam and Eve, but that God
was at work. Uh, Augustine, who was a pastor in
(10:50):
the 4th century, he referred to the fall of human
beings as the fortunate fall.
And that sounds crazy when you think of how hard
life is and, you know, the, the danger of eternal
separation from God and all of the suffering in the
world and all of these things, but what he meant
was Adam and Eve were God's creation, but through Jesus
(11:13):
Christ we become His children.
Adam and Eve were innocent, but through Jesus Christ, we
become righteous, which is more than innocent, innocent means you've
never done wrong. Righteous means you have become one who
always does right.
And so what he recognized like Judo in the martial
arts world is that God took the act of the
(11:34):
devil and turned it for the good of humanity because,
because God is that capable. He's uh he is fully
capable of not being thwarted and actually turning uh attacks
uh or opposition to victory, and there's no greater illustration
of this than the cross of Jesus Christ.
(11:56):
Right, at, at that place, it looks like evil has won,
but actually evil has ended. In, in Jesus Christ, the,
the death of Christ is uh an all-out attack against
the living God and his servant Jesus Christ, uh, and
in that it's as if Jesus absorbs all of the fall,
(12:17):
all of the evil, all of the demonic, and so
it says in Colossians actually that
Jesus triumphed over the powers and principalities in his crucifixion,
not in his resurrection, in his crucifixion, that was where
the victory was won, even though it was an attack,
it was opposition, God was at work.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Sam, what do you think?
Oh, actually, I was just so I, so it was,
I hate saying pre-planned because if Eve would have never
eaten from the fruit.
Jesus wouldn't have died on the cross, was that that
weird to say, or?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah, well, let's just recognize here we're getting both into hypotheticals,
which are just that, they're hypotheticals, and we're getting outside
of the space of how God actually reveals Himself in scripture,
and so,
So, you know, this is something that Martin Luther, he said.
He said, you know, there's the hidden God and the
revealed God. There's always going to be this part of
(13:17):
God's plans, uh, his character, how he's working in a
situation that we can't see, and he said, but that
never negates the revealed God. And so the scriptures tell
us the story of God from that point on, and
it does, I think, in Isaiah and even in Ezekiel,
maybe give us some
Uh, small traces of things before that with the origin of,
(13:37):
of Satan and these types of things, uh, but, but
a hypothetical of what would have happened differently, it's just
It's hard for us to talk about with any confidence.
What we can say uh is Satan attempted, Adam and
Eve were convinced, and God has triumphed in Jesus Christ,
and one day, Satan and his angels will be put
(13:59):
away for all eternity and no longer have any impact.
And so the necessity.
I think it's hard to say, was this necessary? That's
hard to answer, and Augustine, that was an easier answer.
He believed in God's sovereignty to the degree, he says,
of course, God is sovereign. This is his great and
best possible world, but the victory, the victory we can
(14:22):
be confident.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Sam, thank you for your phone call today here on
Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number to call us today
here on the program, and here's a question that was
sent in online by Glenda from the Bay Area who asks,
are you able to explain justification and the new creation?
I guess I'm still trying to understand why we as
(14:45):
believers sometimes say I'm a sinner or forgive me, Lord,
when all of our sins have been forgiven. I guess
I'm trying to also understand how sanctification works. What would
you say, Char, to Glinda? Yeah, that's a great question,
and I, I would agree with Glinda. I think.
Um, unfortunately, in our language, we tend to, uh, continue
(15:08):
to speak of those who have been justified by Jesus Christ,
those who have experienced regeneration and new birth, uh, in
this identity as sinners. And I don't, I'm not denying
that we still, you know, sin, that we still, um, fail,
that we still actually, you know, commit sins both of
omission and commission.
(15:29):
But I do think that our identity has fundamentally changed.
And Paul talks about this in a number of places,
but I'm thinking specifically of that chapter of Romans 8,
you know, and the Paul talks about how formally being
in Adam, and then other places, he'll talk about formerly
being in the realm of the flesh, and then he
(15:51):
talks about now being in Christ or now being in
the realm of the spirit.
And I think what Paul is, you know, regularly saying,
you know, whether it's to the Romans, or it's to
the Corinthians, or it's to the Galatians, like, look, you're,
you're practicing behaviors which belong to the world, which belong
to the flesh, which belong to the way of Adam,
(16:13):
but you don't live there anymore. Now, you are part
of the kingdom of Christ. You are citizens of the
kingdom of heaven, you are the family of God, your
children of God.
And we are to live in this way. And I
think I can only think of one passage in all
of the New Testament, where the church is actually called sinners,
(16:34):
and this is by James, the brother of Jesus, right,
where he is specifically denouncing a very
Unjust practice that is going on in the church, and
he's likening it to an Old Testament passage where the
rich are actually oppressing the poor, and he's saying, look,
this is absolute hypocrisy, so he says, cleanse your hands,
(16:55):
you sinners. But other than that, I mean, the way
that the church is addressed and then Testament is beloved,
Brothers and sisters, saints, this is the language that is used,
sons and daughters. And so, I do think that um
it would be biblical and healthy for us to actually
(17:18):
identify ourselves no longer as sinners, as, you know, my identity,
but now, children of God, not sinners as our identity,
but
identity as saints. And I really think uh that just fundamentally,
you know, changes, I think just the way we see ourselves,
the way we see our relationship with God, the way
(17:39):
that we receive scriptures, we receive them as insiders.
As part of the family, and not as outsiders who
are constantly trying to get in and, you know, am
I justified? Am I actually born again? But no, no,
you are, and because you are, this is the way
that we live. This is the standard that we live by. So, yeah,
I
I agree 100% that we should we should no longer
(18:03):
identify ourselves as sinners if we have been justified by
Jesus Christ and experienced the new birth. But that doesn't,
that also doesn't mean that we're walking around with an
Air of sinless. Yes, nothing like that, yeah, so we
gotta stay humble, absolutely, yeah, yeah, and John makes that
very clear in his, uh, epistle, right? If we say
(18:25):
that we have no sin, we lie, right? And the
truth is not in us, but if we confess our sin,
he is faithful and just to forgive us, and to
cleanse us from all unrighteousness. And so we have this
regular access as the people of God.
Um, to God's forgiveness, to God's cleansing power. And so,
you know, like the story of Jesus cleansing, uh, you know,
(18:46):
washing the disciples' feet, right? That's the kind of access
we have that we can come to Jesus regularly. We
don't need to be baptized again, but we do need
our feet to be washed, right? We don't need, uh,
Christ to be crucified for us again, but we do
need his forgiveness to be applied to us. Yeah. Justin,
any thoughts?
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah, I, I mean, I agree at our intrinsic core,
our identity is secure and it is entirely in Christ
as part of the family of God. However, we do
have the example of Paul who identifies himself as the
chief of sinners, and it's very clear in that passage
that he's referring back to the fact that God saved
(19:25):
him despite who he was, but he doesn't say I
was the chief of sinners. He speaks in the present
tense and
Uh, I think as Christians we have to be comfortable
with paradox. And so getting back to your uh idea
of um sanctification or even the idea of forgiveness, yes,
you have been forgiven, but like Char just said, you
(19:46):
also still need to seek forgiveness, uh, with other people and,
and with Christ, and that, that just makes better sense
of what the Bible says, both of those.
are true in the same way. You are righteous in
Jesus Christ. God sees you as such, and you can
be confident that one day that righteousness will be complete.
There's no danger uh of, of not getting there because
(20:07):
Jesus paid it all, all to him I owe, but
Sanctification recognizes at the same time, God is making me
progressively more and more like Jesus. And so I am
both in a state of righteousness and growing in righteousness.
And again, these paradoxes are things that I think we
see stated in the New Testament and for Luther, he
(20:28):
liked to put them actually in his language, and so
he used the Latin phrase simuleustieppeca, which means simultaneously saint
and sinner.
And he tried to hold on to those, and that
was important for Luther because he felt his need for
Jesus every moment. And so he told a close friend
of his who was struggling with the fact that he
still struggled with sin, and he said, you know what,
(20:49):
never be ashamed to be a sinner because it's for
sinners that Christ came.
And so there is a sense where we need to
identify as, yes, I'm one of those people who needs Jesus.
I'm one of those people who can't make it on
my own. I'm one of those people who is fully
dependent on the blood of Jesus, on the spirit of
Christ to work new life and righteousness in me. And,
(21:09):
and yes, it's a little bit paradoxical, but again, I,
I want to
Confirm what Char said the identity that is the truest
and the one that wins out, the one that will
be written on the white stone that Jesus had hands
you according to Revelation, is not the name sinner. That
is who you are, but who you will become, that
is our hope, and it is our blessed hope and
(21:32):
it is our confident hope.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yeah, I think just even pastorally, Justin, you know, I've
had so many people who really have struggled, you know, with.
This assurance, right? And I think, you know, and many times,
probably for you as well, it's often people that just
have such sensitive conscience, you know,
Speaker 2 (21:51):
and they're the least likely the ones we would say
you you don't need to worry about that,
Speaker 1 (21:55):
right? Exactly. And, and so I do think for us, right,
like you're saying, like, the primary identity, you know, like
the question, who are you in Christ? How does God
see you? And I think that's the thing that we
really want to emphasize and
You know, on the other side of that, I mean,
growing up in the church, you know, my parents never
did this to me, but I remember, I mean, I
(22:15):
literally had Sunday school teachers that, you know, in 5th grade,
they're telling me that I am a wretched sinner and
that every time I sin, you know, I am, you know,
adding to the afflictions of Christ. I mean, I had
a teacher, a Sunday school teacher that literally brought in
a hammer and nails, you know, as a, you know,
example to us of this. And I just think, you know, like,
(22:35):
it
It actually stayed with me for a long time, and
I think a lot of my struggles as a young
man in the church was, I felt like I was
an outsider and I couldn't figure out how to get in.
I wanted to be in, and I felt like I
could never do enough. I felt like grace just couldn't
stick to me. And what I needed to hear is,
(22:58):
you are a son.
You are beloved, you belong. And what I heard is
you're a sinner, you're a hypocrite, you know what I mean?
Like it was more so like do better try harder.
And I think there are a lot of people out
there in our churches that have that um persona of God,
and they have that, you know, picture of themselves, and
(23:19):
I think there are a lot of well-meaning probably pastors
who just kind of double down and reemphasize those things.
And so I think, man, like, when we look at
You know, like, even like the woman, remember the story
of the woman with the flow of blood.
And here she is, right? This we imagine just all
the years since she's just even been touched by another
human being and had, you know, just human community and contact.
(23:42):
And when she touches Jesus and she's afraid everything, she
comes forward and he calls her daughter.
And like, what a beautiful picture of the way that
this woman is reinstated into the community. Jesus, the son
calls her daughter. He is not ashamed, the author of
Hebrews says, to call us brethren. And so I, I
(24:04):
really do think the power
The pastoral foot that we need to lead with is
to pronounce over the people of God, you are in,
you are brothers and sisters, you are sons and daughters.
This is, you know, as you were saying earlier, this
is your primary identity, grow into it.
Take hold of it. This is your salvation that's been
(24:26):
gifted to you, run with it, you know? So.
Yeah, this one, this one hits close to the heart
for me.
Any other thoughts, Justin?
Speaker 2 (24:37):
No, no, I think I agree, um, even if this
is a two-footed conversation, that's the right foot forward, you know, that's,
that's where it, uh, it needs to be and
Um,
And it's actually from that place that we're empowered to escape,
(24:57):
you know, the, the chains and the uh the difficulties
of sin. Um, it's, it's through an encounter with God's grace,
you know, I love, um, this is about our relationship
with the law, but there's an old hymn that I
love called Love Constraining to obedience and
It's just this one line, it says, to see the
(25:18):
law by Christ fulfilled, to hear his pardoning voice will
turn a slave into a child and duty into choice.
And so
What, what, what's being suggested there is when you realize
what God has done for you in Jesus Christ.
The, the law doesn't carry over you as some burden
you need to keep as as a slave whose master
(25:39):
is going to punish him, but suddenly you're a child
who just wants to do the father's will. It turns
duty into choice and you say, why wouldn't I want
to please a father like this? Um, and I, I agree,
I think that is the secret of our sanctification is,
is that actually God works in us both to will
and to do.
And we still have that old will that wants other
(26:01):
things and it's there, and we sometimes say, woe is me,
who will deliver me from this body of death? I
think that's an appropriate thing for Christians to say, but
that longing is new. I used to be totally con
content in my body of death. I, I polished it
and put it on display for other people. I thought
that this was life, but it was death. And now
that I know life, it's not hard to resist.
(26:23):
Uh, the practices of death anymore, not that I don't neglect,
not that I'm not weak, uh, not that I don't
sometimes stray, but in my heart of hearts.
I want no part of those things anymore, because they
do not please the one who loved me,
Speaker 1 (26:38):
right? Yeah.
So where's that balance? Like if you go visit a
church and this church doesn't
It's not that they're not preaching sin, but if they're
not making you feel like, at the end of the service,
if you don't feel convicted, if you don't feel like,
oh my gosh, I, I, I'm the worst person in
the world, because that's what we've been accustomed to a
(26:59):
lot of times where, no, we go to a church
and if a church doesn't preach enough sin, then people say, oh,
that church is soft, they're not bold, they, they're not
speaking the full gospel.
Yeah, I do think that that's where, like, you know,
to the church, right? We are speaking primarily to a
community of disciples, and for the community of disciples, Jesus
(27:21):
is the center, he is the standard, he is the way,
the truth and the life. And so,
I think for a church that is doing gospel teaching
and gospel preaching, it will always be recalibrating, you know,
though it may not be, you know, harping on sin
and focusing on that, we are still have a very
high standard that we are inviting people, you know, as
(27:43):
I said, like, take hold of this identity. Uh, Justin
was talking about this a moment ago, when we were
talking about, you know, Satan in the garden, these things.
Christ has gone.
Where God desired humanity to go. He is the forerunner.
He has led the way, seated, ruling over the cosmos,
and this is where our destiny is headed now, and
(28:04):
everything we're doing in this life, you know, one author says,
you know, is an internship for uh the escaton, right? Like,
we're training now for ruling and reigning with Christ. Like,
how's that going, church?
You know, how are we aligning ourselves with Christ and
his way of being, his way of communing with the Father,
his way of doing the will of the Father, his
(28:26):
way of joy, his way, you know, the yoke that's easy,
the burden that's light. And so for our church, you know,
every gathering culminates at the table.
Mhm. Right. So no matter what we're preaching on that Sunday,
and it could be, you know, Sunday that is talking
about sexual immorality. It could be a Sunday that is
talking about the works of the flesh. It could be
looking at these things, but it's, you know, not by
(28:48):
focusing on these things that we, you know, have victory,
but it's by focusing on the one who overcame, right?
It's by following him.
That we have I
Speaker 2 (28:59):
think in some sense you can even see that in
John chapter 8, right, when Jesus is talking with the
woman who's caught in the very act of adultery, he
says two things and, and this is the balance, right?
Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.
But that's not a balance, it's actually an order. He
starts with the fact that right now, forgiveness is available
(29:21):
and then is the commission to obedience.
And I do think, you know, scripture is full of
warnings and some of those warnings are for disciples and
some of them are kind of intense. They should be shared,
but there's a difference between, uh, you know, a threat
and a warning, a threat that's about punishment, it's about consequence,
(29:42):
it's animosity, a warning is something that actually can come
from a place of love that has your best interest
at heart. And so I think that difference is really,
ah really significant here.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Great conversation today on Pastor's perspective. Glenda, thank you for
sending in your question through the Pastor's perspective page on Kwave.com.
Break time, more questions coming right up.
(30:18):
Hey, we're back on Pastor's Perspective. Thanks so much for
listening and for watching today. We archive all of our
episodes on Facebook, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify in case
you don't get to hear an episode or want to
hear rehear one, you can, uh, go to either of
those and listen again. You can subscribe if you're watching
on YouTube right now, make sure you click the, uh,
(30:40):
The the bell so that you'll get notified every time
we uh do something live and also like each of
our videos as you watch them that way, um.
You know, more people find out about them. But if
you've got a question, call in 888-564-6173 is our number.
We've got Char Broderson, the lead pastor of Calvary Chapel
Costa Mesa here, as well as Justin Thomas, the president
(31:02):
of the Calvary Chapel Bible College in Bradenton, Florida, 888-564-6173
is our number. And now we're going to go to
Karina in Cyprus, who's listening on FM 107.9 K wave. Hello, Karina,
how can we help you today? What's your question?
Hi there. Um, my question has to do with, um,
(31:25):
my entire adult, well, my entire Christian life, I've attended
non-denominational churches. And in the last several years, I've noticed
that I feel like, it seems like, I don't know
if it's all the Protestantism, but
It's really gone off the rails with the NAR influence.
(31:47):
And when I try different churches, I just, I, I
get a sense that there's just a formula that everybody's following.
You sing some songs, pastor gets up, tells a little
joke or anecdote, says some scriptures, fits them into your life.
Like it just, it feels like it's so rehearsed anymore.
(32:07):
And my bottom line question is, why should I
I guess this is two questions. I don't know. Why
should I continue to attend non-denominational or even Protestant churches
as I look through the church history, it feels like
that's where it all went wrong and why shouldn't I
be Orthodox? You guys who have studied so much of
(32:29):
the Bible.
Why are you the tradition that you are and what's
the answer for me as a person who wants to
learn the Bible and not only an academic way, but
a very, very deep and reverent way? Wow. How much
time do we have? This is a great question. That's
a great question.
On a starch? Yeah, I mean, I agree. I feel
(32:51):
like when I look kind of across, especially, I mean,
let's be honest, the American church, you know, and, and
I mean, a lot of this is what I'm seeing
on social media, so I think there's probably many churches,
you know, just, uh, faithfully following in the way of Jesus,
caring for one another, the way we see the church
doing in the New Testament, you know, teaching scripture as
(33:12):
to follow Jesus and not some political agenda and things
like that.
And reaching out to their community to actually serve it
and um
Represent God's kingdom, and the way that Jesus did ministry, right?
Everywhere he healed and where he preached, he said, the
kingdom of God is brought near to you, right? There
were signs, evidences of God's reign. So I, I fully
(33:33):
believe that there are many, many churches still doing that,
and I think uh the ones that they get the
headline is where, you know, kind of where all the
excitement is, right? And so, um,
I will say, you know, we are a local church
here in Orange County that is committed to discipleship. We
are committed to a deep community and loving care for
one another and reaching out to our neighbors, and we are,
(33:54):
you know, I, I mean, I don't tell jokes, but, um,
you know, I teach for 45 minutes every Sunday morning, uh,
through scripture, right? So we are devoted to learning the
way of Jesus and how to live as citizens of
the kingdom of God from the scriptures. Um,
And yeah, one of the reasons why I am Protestant,
(34:17):
I think I just have to be honest, this is
the tradition that I grew up in, uh, and this
is something that's been passed down to me, um, and
also because of Calvary Chapel's emphasis on scripture, we are
a movement that is much more concerned with what scripture
says than what tradition says. Just, I mean, Calvary has
(34:38):
its own traditions and history, of course, right? We're gonna
be just be very honest about that.
But you know, 60 years of that compared to, you know,
thousands of years of that is a little different and
sometimes some of those traditions, especially when they're centuries old,
are really hard to kind of cut through and really
get back to why do we do what we do,
where do we get our reason for these things? And so, um,
(35:01):
I think the simple, um, or I guess the simplicity
of non-denominational evangelical Protestantism, um, is attractive to me because, um,
Anyone is welcome. And I think essentially, um, this is
(35:21):
a a way in which outsiders can like immediately feel
like they can belong, and there isn't, you know, um,
a service being done in another language. There isn't, you know,
multiple liturgical things happening that, you know, are, you know,
may be confusing, you know, if they don't have explanation
(35:43):
to them.
Um, and I've found something that's very attractive to Calvary Chapel, uh,
for me was just, it's simplicity that the most common
of people can, uh, draw near to Jesus, can pastor
people in the way of Jesus, um, and can do,
you know, continue the ministry of Jesus. And so,
(36:04):
You know, those are very simplified reasons, you know, why
I am still attracted to Protestant evangelicalism, and I recognize
too as an insider, that there's tons of problems, right?
There's a lot of dysfunction. There are things that don't
align and I often say, you know, I have friends
who'll be like, man, we really need to get those
Roman Catholics saved, and I say, yeah, how about those
evangelicals as well, you know, cause it's just like, yeah,
(36:26):
every church denomination has its issues, you know, so.
I want to hear from Justin too, but Karina, what
do you think so far of what you've heard?
Yeah, I, I do appreciate that. I, I do and
I'm just really here to take, take it all in
because I.
The older I get, the more I guess seems like
(36:49):
tradition I'm craving, I'm craving some kind of tradition, some
kind of historicity to like a root, you know, so
I've just, yeah, I'm here to take it all in. I'm, I'm,
I'm conflicted. I wouldn't say I'm confused, although I am
confused because when I start reading church history and.
I think, well, how do I even know what I
(37:10):
believe is right? How do I even know this is right?
I don't. How do I know? I've never been in
this place before and I've been a believer for 30 years. Yeah, well,
you know, Karina, the amazing thing about this is the
original text that every denomination is pulling from is the
holy scriptures, and I think if you want a template
(37:32):
for church, you want a template for what Christian.
Discipleship and community and mission and evangelism looks like, look
no further than the Book of Acts, right? That's where
it all starts, that's where it all began. You know,
look at the gospels, look at the ministry of Jesus,
because
The Book of Acts is just the carrying on of
(37:53):
that ministry. And I think for many, you know, and
I'm not, like, trust me, I'm not against tradition, I'm
not against high church liturgy, I actually appreciate so many
of those traditions and think that there's so much value there,
but I think
We can go back to the original document and we
can actually trace where many denominations got their, you know,
(38:16):
liturgical order and the things that they emphasize. You know,
for instance, like, on Sunday morning at Chop Costa Mesa,
every time at the end of our singing songs of worship,
which we take from the book of Psalms, right? From
the pages of scripture, we pray the Lord's prayer together
because Jesus said, when you pray, pray.
This. And so this is a prayer that we pray
(38:38):
to unite us, and to, you know, basically give our
allegiance again to God and to His kingdom, to do
his will to see, um, that done on earth as
it is in heaven. It's to remind us of our
dependence upon God for forgiveness, for, um, provision and for protection, right?
And so, these are traditions that churches practice, but they
(39:01):
come straight from the.
pages of scripture. And so I think for you, this
might be one of those seasons of your life where
you just need to go right back to the original
text and really know why you believe what you believe.
And then I think that will be um a helpful
template for finding a church, yes, that holds to the
(39:22):
traditions that are laid out in the scripture, uh, where
you can fellowship and be a part of what God
is doing. Justin Thomas.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah, I mean, Karina, I just want to say that
uh I, I don't.
I don't begrudge anyone right now who's struggling to find
a good church. Um, we're in such an insane season
and there's, uh, there's so many things that are hijacking, and,
and it's important to keep in mind that non-denominational is
(39:51):
a terribly unhelpful uh uh label, right? It just says
we're not this other thing, but that, that's a very
broad tent. It, it, it, it can mean pretty much
anything and we don't have time on the show to
talk about it, but also.
I think non-denominational churches are more susceptible to some of
the things that are going on right now because they're
resistant to other things, and that leaves them vulnerable on
(40:14):
their flank, if you will, but again, I'm sorry that
I don't have time to go into it, but there,
there are, there's a real problem in non-denominational churches right now.
I'll agree with you, um, and, uh, and
I struggle with it. I, I grieve it, and I,
I've counseled so many people who have moved away from
our church where they were fellowshipping with us and they're
(40:35):
in another town and they're having such a hard time
finding a good church and, and so, um, what, what
I would say is first charge right on the money.
You want a church not just that preaches from the
Bible but preaches the scriptures.
And that's not the same thing, cause you're going to
find churches who just like Charles Church, just like the
(40:55):
church I used to pastor, go right through the Bible,
but the only thing they talk about has nothing to
do with what's in the passage that week. They always
find a way to get to these other issues, and
that's not biblical, that's not allowing the Bible to speak,
but when the Bible speaks, there's freedom, there's life, there's
loving confrontation, there's counterculture, you know, uh, all of these
(41:18):
things happen and
And I kind of get the sense right now that
a lot of these churches are a little less or
harder to recognize because they're a little bit smaller, they're
kind of just keeping on where they're going, um, but,
but to answer your big question very quickly, and I
would agree with Char, part of the reason that I'm
a Protestant is because this is my background, this is,
(41:40):
I got saved in a Calvary Chapel and so this
is my family, you know.
Um, but, but another reason is because the Protestant Reformation
was basically a return to the scriptures. It was a
recognition that some places in the church had gone sideways,
and it was a, it was a path to go,
how do we reform? We reform by going back to
(42:02):
the scriptures. And so I'm not convinced that every church
that regularly opens the Bible is culturally healthy.
But I am convinced that the only way to cultural health,
even in seasons like this, is through the scriptures.
And the thing is, if you look at the New Testament,
you will find an NAR type movement. Paul called them
the super apostles. They were these ones that were convinced
(42:24):
that they must be the true Christians because they were
the victors and they were going to dominate in these
types of things. And Paul said, Why is it that
my life as an appointed apostle of Christ actually looks
like Jesus with suffering and with weakness and with humility. Um,
so this is not a new problem.
It's always existed in this church, this false idolatrous image
(42:48):
of more than conquerors, victors who will dominate the whole
world by it in the New Testament, it is proclaimed
as false and empty and dangerous, um, and sometimes it's
just the quiet little remnant, right? And so I just
encourage you, don't, don't give up on looking and
And if you want to check out an Orthodox church,
if you wanna go to a Catholic church, if you
(43:10):
want to step into an Anglican church, uh, you should
do so. Look around, but, but again, here are encouragement
that the place where you're going to find the truth
is the place where the scriptures are held up in
high regard, where they're opened regularly, where they're studied deeply,
and where they're obeyed.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
What do you think of what you've heard, Karina from now, Justin?
Well, I'll tell you what, um, you know what made
a really big impact on me just now is that
to hear that this is not a new problem and
that the remnant has survived it, so I'm quite reassured
by that. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Mhm.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
That's great. Yeah, and I'm also glad to hear that, um.
You know they're, you're out there they're out there. The
Bible teaching churches are out there, um.
Yeah, and I might go visit an orthodox. I might,
you know, I might go visit it. I've never been.
I've never done any other thing, and so maybe I will,
(44:12):
you know, and maybe that'll bring me back. I don't know.
I don't know, but I'm sure do appreciate all of
those insights and really, really what impacted me was, uh,
knowing that hearing that there was a biblical example of
sort of the same influence that's going on now and
that it's gonna be OK. Yeah.
(44:33):
Uh, my biggest fear is that my biggest prayer always
is that Lord, don't let me be deceived. Please don't
let me be deceived. I don't wanna go down the
wrong path.
Yeah, I, Karina, I just want to affirm that. I mean,
that is beautiful, like that humility, and I think that
checking your spirit, just looking at what's going on culturally, like,
(44:53):
you know, when Jesus talks about the kingdom and the gospels,
he talks about how, you know, it's like Len, it's
this thing that slowly rises. It's almost imperceptible to the eye, um,
you know, or it talks about how it's a mustard seed, right?
It's so insignificant and yet it will grow into this
tree that will fill the whole earth. And so,
(45:13):
You know, Jesus is looking at, you know, Justin was saying,
you know, there's Paul with the super apostles, but there were,
you know, the Pharisees of Jesus' day that were aligned
with these political groups that saw themselves as overthrowing the
Romans to take back the kingdom of God. And Jesus
is saying, that's not how it's gonna come.
It's gonna come actually by the death of Messiah, and
(45:34):
it's gonna come by, you know, Christ actually sending his,
you know, apostles throughout the earth to make known the
way of the kingdom is the way of the cross,
you know, I mean, it's just so
Antithetical to the way everyone was thinking and what was
gaining popularity and steam in those days. And so, you know,
I just want to affirm you, you are on the
(45:56):
right track, those checks that you have in your spirit,
that is, I believe, the spirit of God saying, yeah,
this is not it.
And so, yeah, I just want to encourage you, um, and,
you know, as you go to these other churches and look,
I think you're gonna see some really beautiful things that
are done and held by other traditions, and I think
that that can only actually, um, you know, grow your
(46:18):
appreciation for the global church and the many different expressions
of true faith in Jesus Christ.
What are some of the passages in scripture where we
can read about Paul versus the super apostles? Uh, obviously
we're not gonna find super apostles in our, uh, in
(46:39):
the con uh the, uh, in the church leadership in
the structure, is that what you're? No, in the concordance.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
It is Paul's language. Uh, so if you've got a
modern translation, that's, that's the word he uses, and so.
So you, you can't find it, but it's mostly in
2 Corinthians where he talks about these opponents and especially
from about chapter 12, uh, maybe even as far back
as chapter 11 without cracking my Bible open, where he
starts to make a contrast with these other ones, but
(47:06):
really throughout 2.
Corinthians, he's talking, knowing these guys are there, he's sometimes
addressing them, and he's speaking to a church that has
actually bought this hook line and sinker, and he's trying
to remind them of what they should know from his
own ministry as their pastor, as their spiritual father that
planted the church, and so,
Honestly, I think 2 Corinthians is a is a book
(47:27):
that deserves much more reading and especially for leadership. I
think it is the number one book in the New
Testament on leadership because it presents Paul's way of leadership,
which is the path of weakness that is actually powerful
and love that is actually capable of overcoming hatred.
Uh, and submission that actually leads to change and all
(47:50):
of these things, and so, so yeah, um, and, and
that's the last thing I'll say, Karina, and then I'd
really like to pray for you. Um, one of our,
one of the facets of our history in Calvary Chapel is,
is just revival of people who weren't church suddenly meeting
Jesus and being radically saved. But the other part is
a bunch of Christians who were discontent with the way
(48:10):
their church did things and recognized that it was in
the way of something new God wanted to do.
And that seems to be a pattern across church history,
and so all I wanna say is Karina, there may
be other people around you who are struggling with that
same discontent. You guys can open God's word together.
You can take that same part of humility and seeking
and say God, we want to understand your words, so
(48:32):
as we read it together, will you reveal yourself, um, and,
and with time, that that is the church, you know,
and whether it's organized or formal or if it has
as a pastor, churches begin when Christians gather and under
the guidance of the Holy Spirit open the word of God.
And again, the reformers understood this. They said the church
(48:53):
didn't come up with the scriptures, it was the scriptures
that made the church.
The word of God went forth and then we had
this birth of the community and so.
So I, I just encourage you, and I do really
quickly just want to close and pray for you and,
and for others who are listening in who are feeling
the same burden and weight and feeling like they're running
out of options for a healthy body of Christ to
(49:13):
be a part of. So let me just pray, God,
I lift up Karina to you, and again, I lift
up every other one who is worried, who's afraid, who
is wondering where you fit into all of this, who
just wants to hear your voice and do your will
and is looking for others to do the same.
And I pray that you would lead and you would guide,
(49:34):
and that you would even begin new works, Lord. It,
it may be, um, God, that some of these churches
still have the opportunity to turn around to find you again,
to rediscover, uh the Jesus of the New Testament, but,
but
You also are capable of doing a new work with
a new wine skin, uh, and raising up new churches,
and even if they're small, Lord, they can be places
(49:57):
of security and faithfulness and even fruitfulness. And so we
just ask God for Karina and for everyone else, God,
would you just
Have mercy on the American church and raise up faithful
ministries that represent you, that are devoted to your word,
and are not distracted by things that are not of you.
We just ask this all in your name.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
Amen. Amen.
Amen. Karina, thank you so much for calling us today
here on Pastor's Perspective. And since you mentioned church history,
it reminds me that I want to tell you guys
about the, uh, courses that are coming up at Calvary
Chapel Costa Mesa on Wednesday nights beginning October 8th. We
call it The Gathering. It's a six-week session, and, uh,
(50:39):
church history is one of the classes that you can
sign up for. It's taught by
Char's dad Brian Broderson, are you teaching a course this time?
I'm actually not teaching a course. Are you gonna sit
in on one of these? I am gonna try to
work on some new material and maybe serve a little
bit in kids' ministry.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
I didn't tell jokes in church.
Speaker 1 (50:59):
You're doing ministry, you gotta have jokes, man. All right, uh.
New content. Yes, yes,
Speaker 2 (51:09):
all night I'm gonna be picturing you at some club
downtown while church is going on.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
Just trying to get a tight five.
Char Broderson, stand-up comedian. Hey, open mic night. That's what
it'll be. Myra and SoCal, welcome to Pastor's Perspective. We've
only got a few minutes, so, uh, if you could
sum up what's going on, and we'll do our best
to give you an answer.
Hi, yes, um, I've been working for this company for
(51:33):
3 years and then for these 3 years that I've
been there, I've been harassed, bullied, you know, mistreated. I'm
the only woman there. They're all men.
Um, and, uh, I have talked to HR and they
don't do anything about it. They just moved me from
one shop to another shop. cause major depression, anxiety, you know, and, uh,
I go to church, I pray, and my prayer is
(51:56):
that God gives me the street to to be able
to deal with that. Right now I'm looking for a
new job, but my question is, is it OK that
I'm taking them to court because somebody told me to
take them to court and they told me that I
needed to fight for my rights and
I just don't know if this is what God wants,
if I do it right by taking them to court.
(52:17):
Is this a Christian organization you're working for, Myra?
Speaker 2 (52:21):
No,
Speaker 1 (52:21):
it's not. It's not a church or anything like that.
All right. What would you say, Justin?
Speaker 2 (52:26):
Yeah, uh, well, I think the most important thing, Maura,
is I don't think this is a necessarily a right
or wrong question, as in, is it never right or
is it always wrong? Um, I don't think that's the
right way to approach this, and, and what I hear
even as you share this, Myra, as you said, you
said you, you're not actually sure what God's will is here,
(52:48):
and I, I want to encourage that. Um, that's what
you want most here and
Uh, you know, there are things we can say here
with confidence. Um, there, there are things that go on
in organizations that are not right. And if you've taken
all of these steps to stop it and it hasn't
changed anything.
Then escalating that is just the way society is built
(53:11):
and it's something that the Bible affirms from beginning to
end that God has put authorities into place for this reason.
And so being able to appeal to the government because
your business is not treating you rightly is totally appropriate. OK. Now,
sometimes I do think God uh says but.
(53:33):
But I have something different for you, but I would
suggest that that you need to feel that either deep
in conviction or in clear guidance, and even then it's
not a road to be walked alone. And so, so again,
and let me just put it this way.
The Bible puts a heavy emphasis on government's role in
(53:57):
protecting the oppressed, the mistreated, uh, the vulnerable, and these
types of things, and whether you see yourself that way
or not,
Um, Myra, you have an opportunity here to change an
organization so that others won't be impacted by these things,
and generally I think that's a place where God works
(54:18):
to bring change, and again he seems content often to
do that through the avenues of appeal that we have
through the court system.
Uh, through calling the police, you know, if you had
told me that your husband was beating you and you'd say,
what does this mean for your marriage, the first thing
I'd say is call the police. That's the first thing
it means for your marriage. Um, that's always appropriate. Now,
(54:40):
what happens next after that and is your marriage over?
That's a whole another conversation. But God has put multiple
authorities in our life and embedded us in a culture
and his desire is justice.
Not vengeance, not everybody gets what they deserve because I'm
mad at them, but that righteousness would prevail, that people
would be rightly treated and that would grow. And so,
(55:03):
so again, I, I think based on what you said,
you should pray about this. You should, you should be concerned,
but you should not be afraid to go to court.
Speaker 1 (55:11):
30 seconds. Yeah, I just, you know, emphasize what Justin
was saying. Don't do it alone, Mya. Just, you know,
surround yourself with people that know you, that people that
love you.
Wise counsel in order to, yeah, discern and to walk
through such a difficult situation. So we will remember you
in our prayers. Yep, everybody watching and listening right now,
remember Myra in your prayers and Karina and everybody else
(55:33):
who we called who called in today. Uh, great episode.
Go back and listen to it if you missed any
part of it.
That you will not be disappointed. Thank you all for
listening and watching. We're gonna do this again tomorrow. We're
here every day, Monday through Friday from 3 to 4 p.m.
Pacific time, and we look forward to hearing from you
for Char Broderson and Justin Thomas. I'm Brian Perez. Thank
(55:54):
you so much for being with us today here on
Pastor's Perspective.
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez,
and we're gonna be here in the studio for the
next hour today, answering questions you might have about the Bible,
the Christian faith, something you heard at church this weekend
that you're wondering, that maybe you'd never heard before, maybe
a different take on some passage of scripture that you
had always interpreted to mean one thing, and then your
(00:38):
pastor said, Nope, it actually means this, and you're thinking, Wait, what? Huh?
So call in and let's talk about it. 888-564-6173 is
the number to call. You can watch us today on Facebook, YouTube,
and Instagram too, and you can also send in your
questions to us online, but the best way to get
an answer today is to call in at 888-564-61.
(01:01):
73. And answering your questions today, we've got the lead
pastor of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, that is Char Broderson.
How are you doing, Char? Brian Perez. I'm doing very well.
Thank you. So happy to hear that, sir. How are you?
I'm doing well. We've also got Justin Thomas. He's the
president of the Calvary Chapel Bible College in Bradenton, Florida.
Did I get that right?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
You did. Oh good.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Wonderful. Now, speaking of Thomas, a quick shout out to
Thomas and Paul, to listeners of Pastor's perspective whom I
met this weekend. I was walking across, uh, a parking lot, uh, the, uh,
Home Depot there in Lake Forest. I was walking across
the parking lot and uh.
This guy pulls up in his car. He's like, Hey,
aren't you Brian from Pastors? I'm like, yeah. So he
(01:45):
pulled over. We talked for, you know, 1520 minutes or something,
and then this other guy, he drives around and he
kind of does a double take over at, you know,
where Thomas and I are speaking, and he, he parks
his car, he gets out and he's like, Wait, aren't
you Brian from Pastors? And I'm like, yes.
And so it was just really fun. And so to
meet these two guys who didn't know each other, it
(02:05):
was so we had like a little three-man fellowship there
for a few minutes. So Thomas and Paul, nice meeting
you guys. Paul, by the way, works at the Chipotle,
that's right there where the Home Depot is in Lake Forest,
so stop in and say hi to Paul. But that
was just fun. That is fun. Yes. All right, so
888-564-6173 is our number.
(02:28):
We've got some questions that were sent in online, but
let's start off on the phones right away with Lourdes,
who's calling in from California, and she's got a Halloween question,
it looks like. We are, uh, what, 1 month and
2 days away from Halloween. What did you want to
ask us today, Lourdes?
Good afternoon pastors. Thank you for taking my call. Yeah,
(02:49):
I have a question, um, sorry.
No, go ahead. Can you hear me? Yeah. OK. I
have a question. So my niece, um, actually invited me
to one of her baby's first birthday, and I'm just
gonna do like a Halloween theme party. So I'm like
calling to see your, you guys' perspective on that. Um, I,
(03:09):
I feel like, um, I wanna go, but then again
it's like if it's Halloween theme, it's not something I celebrate,
to tell you the truth, and I just wanted to
get you guys' perspective on that. So.
When you, when you say a Halloween theme, do you
mean like a scary Halloween theme or it's just everybody
who's gonna be dressing like Disney princesses or what's the?
(03:32):
Um, no, it's, it's a, it's, um, just Halloween theme,
like however you wanna come dressed. Yeah. OK, sure, we'll
start with you. Yeah, I think in a situation like this,
I think we can use, clearly use Jesus as our example.
And I think in the gospels we see Jesus going
where people are gathered, and there are people gathered at these,
(03:54):
you know, dinners or these gatherings that are far from God.
They are not people who
Um, are necessarily, you know, seeking God, their priorities are not,
and values are not Jesus's priorities and values, and yet
Jesus is in the midst of them, and he, um,
you know, just from Jesus' own lifestyle, what we know
of him, he served people and he, uh, was in
(04:17):
conversation with them and drew out the deep desires of
their hearts in order to
Uh, you know, bring God's salvation to them. And so
I think Jesus is really our example, um, for, you know,
kind of these types of situations, you know, I think,
you know, there's nothing that's gonna happen, I think at
a Halloween party that's gonna affect you, um, you know,
(04:37):
by being there, right, like we don't believe that you
can receive some kind of spirit from being there. We
actually believe that the spirit that is in us, that
Holy Spirit is actually greater than any spirit.
Uh, any demonic spirit in the world. And so I
think you can actually go into that place in confidence
and even pray, Lord, be with me and with the
conversations that I have with people, be in such a
(04:59):
way that I could really see them for who they are,
that we could talk about deeper things and I would
have the opportunity to just share just about.
My own journey with Jesus and what God has done
for me, you know, so we were just talking about
this actually on Sunday, right? Going to those places where
people gather and just being there as a witness in
(05:20):
everything we do, right? It's not necessarily going there to evangelize,
but first and foremost just being a witness and seeing
what God might do through these conversations because something we're
not saying that Lord this should do is to show
up and just like sit in the corner and just
be like,
I don't like this. This isn't right and hoping that
that'll draw conversation because that might, I mean, she doesn't
(05:42):
want to be that person. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I
remember years ago, you know, John Piper is a funny, uh,
interesting character and sometimes his perspective on things is just like, wow,
like I did not expect him to say that, um.
But I remember one time he somebody was asking him like,
you know, should we, you know, allow our kids to,
you know, to learn about Santa Claus? And he just
kind of said like, it's kind of neither here nor there.
(06:04):
Like it's not going to do any harm, you know,
to talk about Santa Claus and allow them to just
enjoy like Christmas festivities. He said, but I want to
challenge you as a Christian actually to go above and
beyond what any kind of celebration.
that your neighbors would do, because the hope that we
have in Christ is so far greater than the kind
of hope or joy that Santa can bring, you know,
depending on whether we are naughty or nice, right? Like,
(06:28):
what we have in Jesus is so much better. How
could you actually outdo everyone around you in the way
that you celebrate Christmas and the blessing that you bring?
And so, Lourdes, I would just say like,
And I think that that's how Jesus was. I think
that he came into uh that kind of setting and
somehow people were drawn to him, right? Like they didn't
(06:48):
feel like, oh man, what a bummer Jesus decided to
show up. Like they were attracted to him, right? And so,
You know, obviously some of this might just take like
that self talk, that praying to the, you know, talking
with the Holy Spirit, like, help me, or just to
have the right attitude, like to love these people the
way that you love them, to see them the way
that you see them, you know, and use me. Justin,
(07:10):
what would you want?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yeah, I mean, I think Jesus put it pretty simply
when he said that we are salt and light. Ah,
both of those only have their significance if they're in
a place where salt and light are needed. And so
where there's corruption, where there's decay, that's where salt actually
does something. It stays the impact of that corruption and
in the same way, light is valuable in dark places.
(07:35):
And so this is never an excuse to be unwise,
and it's never an excuse for us to engage in
sinful behavior, but we don't have to worry about being contaminated. Instead,
we can lean into being a positive influence, an influence
that actually brings Jesus into the room and um and
so this is an opportunity to be salt and light
(07:57):
and you know, if your light is darkness, it's no good.
If you just, if you just go and you're just
like everybody else and you just keep your head down.
Uh, you, again, like, like Char said, you can do more, um, but,
but this is a, a celebration, it's, uh, and it's family,
and those are actually joy and family are, are Christian values.
They just have deeper meaning for us, more significance, and so.
(08:21):
You know, um, maybe, maybe don't put on a costume.
Maybe you don't need to do that, but, but go
and love the people that are there and see if
you can bring Jesus to the party.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah, I think just the fact too, Justin, you know,
that Lourdes is being invited to this is significant, right?
You're wanted. And so be you come there as you
representing all, you know, that you are in Jesus Christ, so.
Thank you so much for calling in today to Pastor's Perspective.
888-564-6173 is our number and here is Sam in Santa
(08:53):
Fe Springs. Welcome to the program, Sam.
Hey, Pastor Sara, how's everybody? Yeah, doing well, thank you.
How are you, Sam? Hi, Sam. Really good, really good.
Quick question, um, in the Garden of Eden, where there
was a Tree of Knowledge and the tree of good
and evil, right?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Um,
Speaker 1 (09:11):
how did Satan get in the garden? And what did
God test? Did God allow it and and wanted to test, uh, Eve?
What do you say,
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Justin?
Um, yeah, I mean, it really doesn't matter how you
go about this story, uh, eventually you're going to have
to deal with the fact that God is sovereign and
yet still the devil.
And so you, how however many steps you trace it back,
you're going to have to get comfortable with the fact
that something like Satan exists in the world that God
(09:45):
has created. However, there are some wrong ways to think
about this, and one of them is uh assuming that
the devil is just a mask that God wears to
do bad stuff or to test his people, you know, biblically.
Uh, God created all these things and saw that they
(10:06):
were good, and you're right, with Adam and Eve and
what happens in the garden, it's very quick when things
go bad, but also we have this serpent character and
we have to see him the same way. He was
a good thing that went bad, and he spreads that
bad to humanity because they take his side.
(10:26):
In desiring, instead of doing God's will to go their
own way, to a degree to be their own gods,
and that's, that's part of the problem. But there is
some truth in what you're saying, uh, not that Satan
was there to test Adam and Eve, but that God
was at work. Uh, Augustine, who was a pastor in
(10:50):
the 4th century, he referred to the fall of human
beings as the fortunate fall.
And that sounds crazy when you think of how hard
life is and, you know, the, the danger of eternal
separation from God and all of the suffering in the
world and all of these things, but what he meant
was Adam and Eve were God's creation, but through Jesus
(11:13):
Christ we become His children.
Adam and Eve were innocent, but through Jesus Christ, we
become righteous, which is more than innocent, innocent means you've
never done wrong. Righteous means you have become one who
always does right.
And so what he recognized like Judo in the martial
arts world is that God took the act of the
(11:34):
devil and turned it for the good of humanity because,
because God is that capable. He's uh he is fully
capable of not being thwarted and actually turning uh attacks
uh or opposition to victory, and there's no greater illustration
of this than the cross of Jesus Christ.
(11:56):
Right, at, at that place, it looks like evil has won,
but actually evil has ended. In, in Jesus Christ, the,
the death of Christ is uh an all-out attack against
the living God and his servant Jesus Christ, uh, and
in that it's as if Jesus absorbs all of the fall,
(12:17):
all of the evil, all of the demonic, and so
it says in Colossians actually that
Jesus triumphed over the powers and principalities in his crucifixion,
not in his resurrection, in his crucifixion, that was where
the victory was won, even though it was an attack,
it was opposition, God was at work.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Sam, what do you think?
Oh, actually, I was just so I, so it was,
I hate saying pre-planned because if Eve would have never
eaten from the fruit.
Jesus wouldn't have died on the cross, was that that
weird to say, or?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah, well, let's just recognize here we're getting both into hypotheticals,
which are just that, they're hypotheticals, and we're getting outside
of the space of how God actually reveals Himself in scripture,
and so,
So, you know, this is something that Martin Luther, he said.
He said, you know, there's the hidden God and the
revealed God. There's always going to be this part of
(13:17):
God's plans, uh, his character, how he's working in a
situation that we can't see, and he said, but that
never negates the revealed God. And so the scriptures tell
us the story of God from that point on, and
it does, I think, in Isaiah and even in Ezekiel,
maybe give us some
Uh, small traces of things before that with the origin of,
(13:37):
of Satan and these types of things, uh, but, but
a hypothetical of what would have happened differently, it's just
It's hard for us to talk about with any confidence.
What we can say uh is Satan attempted, Adam and
Eve were convinced, and God has triumphed in Jesus Christ,
and one day, Satan and his angels will be put
(13:59):
away for all eternity and no longer have any impact.
And so the necessity.
I think it's hard to say, was this necessary? That's
hard to answer, and Augustine, that was an easier answer.
He believed in God's sovereignty to the degree, he says,
of course, God is sovereign. This is his great and
best possible world, but the victory, the victory we can
(14:22):
be confident.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Sam, thank you for your phone call today here on
Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number to call us today
here on the program, and here's a question that was
sent in online by Glenda from the Bay Area who asks,
are you able to explain justification and the new creation?
I guess I'm still trying to understand why we as
(14:45):
believers sometimes say I'm a sinner or forgive me, Lord,
when all of our sins have been forgiven. I guess
I'm trying to also understand how sanctification works. What would
you say, Char, to Glinda? Yeah, that's a great question,
and I, I would agree with Glinda. I think.
Um, unfortunately, in our language, we tend to, uh, continue
(15:08):
to speak of those who have been justified by Jesus Christ,
those who have experienced regeneration and new birth, uh, in
this identity as sinners. And I don't, I'm not denying
that we still, you know, sin, that we still, um, fail,
that we still actually, you know, commit sins both of
omission and commission.
(15:29):
But I do think that our identity has fundamentally changed.
And Paul talks about this in a number of places,
but I'm thinking specifically of that chapter of Romans 8,
you know, and the Paul talks about how formally being
in Adam, and then other places, he'll talk about formerly
being in the realm of the flesh, and then he
(15:51):
talks about now being in Christ or now being in
the realm of the spirit.
And I think what Paul is, you know, regularly saying,
you know, whether it's to the Romans, or it's to
the Corinthians, or it's to the Galatians, like, look, you're,
you're practicing behaviors which belong to the world, which belong
to the flesh, which belong to the way of Adam,
(16:13):
but you don't live there anymore. Now, you are part
of the kingdom of Christ. You are citizens of the
kingdom of heaven, you are the family of God, your
children of God.
And we are to live in this way. And I
think I can only think of one passage in all
of the New Testament, where the church is actually called sinners,
(16:34):
and this is by James, the brother of Jesus, right,
where he is specifically denouncing a very
Unjust practice that is going on in the church, and
he's likening it to an Old Testament passage where the
rich are actually oppressing the poor, and he's saying, look,
this is absolute hypocrisy, so he says, cleanse your hands,
(16:55):
you sinners. But other than that, I mean, the way
that the church is addressed and then Testament is beloved,
Brothers and sisters, saints, this is the language that is used,
sons and daughters. And so, I do think that um
it would be biblical and healthy for us to actually
(17:18):
identify ourselves no longer as sinners, as, you know, my identity,
but now, children of God, not sinners as our identity,
but
identity as saints. And I really think uh that just fundamentally,
you know, changes, I think just the way we see ourselves,
the way we see our relationship with God, the way
(17:39):
that we receive scriptures, we receive them as insiders.
As part of the family, and not as outsiders who
are constantly trying to get in and, you know, am
I justified? Am I actually born again? But no, no,
you are, and because you are, this is the way
that we live. This is the standard that we live by. So, yeah,
I
I agree 100% that we should we should no longer
(18:03):
identify ourselves as sinners if we have been justified by
Jesus Christ and experienced the new birth. But that doesn't,
that also doesn't mean that we're walking around with an
Air of sinless. Yes, nothing like that, yeah, so we
gotta stay humble, absolutely, yeah, yeah, and John makes that
very clear in his, uh, epistle, right? If we say
(18:25):
that we have no sin, we lie, right? And the
truth is not in us, but if we confess our sin,
he is faithful and just to forgive us, and to
cleanse us from all unrighteousness. And so we have this
regular access as the people of God.
Um, to God's forgiveness, to God's cleansing power. And so,
you know, like the story of Jesus cleansing, uh, you know,
(18:46):
washing the disciples' feet, right? That's the kind of access
we have that we can come to Jesus regularly. We
don't need to be baptized again, but we do need
our feet to be washed, right? We don't need, uh,
Christ to be crucified for us again, but we do
need his forgiveness to be applied to us. Yeah. Justin,
any thoughts?
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah, I, I mean, I agree at our intrinsic core,
our identity is secure and it is entirely in Christ
as part of the family of God. However, we do
have the example of Paul who identifies himself as the
chief of sinners, and it's very clear in that passage
that he's referring back to the fact that God saved
(19:25):
him despite who he was, but he doesn't say I
was the chief of sinners. He speaks in the present
tense and
Uh, I think as Christians we have to be comfortable
with paradox. And so getting back to your uh idea
of um sanctification or even the idea of forgiveness, yes,
you have been forgiven, but like Char just said, you
(19:46):
also still need to seek forgiveness, uh, with other people and,
and with Christ, and that, that just makes better sense
of what the Bible says, both of those.
are true in the same way. You are righteous in
Jesus Christ. God sees you as such, and you can
be confident that one day that righteousness will be complete.
There's no danger uh of, of not getting there because
(20:07):
Jesus paid it all, all to him I owe, but
Sanctification recognizes at the same time, God is making me
progressively more and more like Jesus. And so I am
both in a state of righteousness and growing in righteousness.
And again, these paradoxes are things that I think we
see stated in the New Testament and for Luther, he
(20:28):
liked to put them actually in his language, and so
he used the Latin phrase simuleustieppeca, which means simultaneously saint
and sinner.
And he tried to hold on to those, and that
was important for Luther because he felt his need for
Jesus every moment. And so he told a close friend
of his who was struggling with the fact that he
still struggled with sin, and he said, you know what,
(20:49):
never be ashamed to be a sinner because it's for
sinners that Christ came.
And so there is a sense where we need to
identify as, yes, I'm one of those people who needs Jesus.
I'm one of those people who can't make it on
my own. I'm one of those people who is fully
dependent on the blood of Jesus, on the spirit of
Christ to work new life and righteousness in me. And,
(21:09):
and yes, it's a little bit paradoxical, but again, I,
I want to
Confirm what Char said the identity that is the truest
and the one that wins out, the one that will
be written on the white stone that Jesus had hands
you according to Revelation, is not the name sinner. That
is who you are, but who you will become, that
is our hope, and it is our blessed hope and
(21:32):
it is our confident hope.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yeah, I think just even pastorally, Justin, you know, I've
had so many people who really have struggled, you know, with.
This assurance, right? And I think, you know, and many times,
probably for you as well, it's often people that just
have such sensitive conscience, you know,
Speaker 2 (21:51):
and they're the least likely the ones we would say
you you don't need to worry about that,
Speaker 1 (21:55):
right? Exactly. And, and so I do think for us, right,
like you're saying, like, the primary identity, you know, like
the question, who are you in Christ? How does God
see you? And I think that's the thing that we
really want to emphasize and
You know, on the other side of that, I mean,
growing up in the church, you know, my parents never
did this to me, but I remember, I mean, I
(22:15):
literally had Sunday school teachers that, you know, in 5th grade,
they're telling me that I am a wretched sinner and
that every time I sin, you know, I am, you know,
adding to the afflictions of Christ. I mean, I had
a teacher, a Sunday school teacher that literally brought in
a hammer and nails, you know, as a, you know,
example to us of this. And I just think, you know, like,
(22:35):
it
It actually stayed with me for a long time, and
I think a lot of my struggles as a young
man in the church was, I felt like I was
an outsider and I couldn't figure out how to get in.
I wanted to be in, and I felt like I
could never do enough. I felt like grace just couldn't
stick to me. And what I needed to hear is,
(22:58):
you are a son.
You are beloved, you belong. And what I heard is
you're a sinner, you're a hypocrite, you know what I mean?
Like it was more so like do better try harder.
And I think there are a lot of people out
there in our churches that have that um persona of God,
and they have that, you know, picture of themselves, and
(23:19):
I think there are a lot of well-meaning probably pastors
who just kind of double down and reemphasize those things.
And so I think, man, like, when we look at
You know, like, even like the woman, remember the story
of the woman with the flow of blood.
And here she is, right? This we imagine just all
the years since she's just even been touched by another
human being and had, you know, just human community and contact.
(23:42):
And when she touches Jesus and she's afraid everything, she
comes forward and he calls her daughter.
And like, what a beautiful picture of the way that
this woman is reinstated into the community. Jesus, the son
calls her daughter. He is not ashamed, the author of
Hebrews says, to call us brethren. And so I, I
(24:04):
really do think the power
The pastoral foot that we need to lead with is
to pronounce over the people of God, you are in,
you are brothers and sisters, you are sons and daughters.
This is, you know, as you were saying earlier, this
is your primary identity, grow into it.
Take hold of it. This is your salvation that's been
(24:26):
gifted to you, run with it, you know? So.
Yeah, this one, this one hits close to the heart
for me.
Any other thoughts, Justin?
Speaker 2 (24:37):
No, no, I think I agree, um, even if this
is a two-footed conversation, that's the right foot forward, you know, that's,
that's where it, uh, it needs to be and
Um,
And it's actually from that place that we're empowered to escape,
(24:57):
you know, the, the chains and the uh the difficulties
of sin. Um, it's, it's through an encounter with God's grace,
you know, I love, um, this is about our relationship
with the law, but there's an old hymn that I
love called Love Constraining to obedience and
It's just this one line, it says, to see the
(25:18):
law by Christ fulfilled, to hear his pardoning voice will
turn a slave into a child and duty into choice.
And so
What, what, what's being suggested there is when you realize
what God has done for you in Jesus Christ.
The, the law doesn't carry over you as some burden
you need to keep as as a slave whose master
(25:39):
is going to punish him, but suddenly you're a child
who just wants to do the father's will. It turns
duty into choice and you say, why wouldn't I want
to please a father like this? Um, and I, I agree,
I think that is the secret of our sanctification is,
is that actually God works in us both to will
and to do.
And we still have that old will that wants other
(26:01):
things and it's there, and we sometimes say, woe is me,
who will deliver me from this body of death? I
think that's an appropriate thing for Christians to say, but
that longing is new. I used to be totally con
content in my body of death. I, I polished it
and put it on display for other people. I thought
that this was life, but it was death. And now
that I know life, it's not hard to resist.
(26:23):
Uh, the practices of death anymore, not that I don't neglect,
not that I'm not weak, uh, not that I don't
sometimes stray, but in my heart of hearts.
I want no part of those things anymore, because they
do not please the one who loved me,
Speaker 1 (26:38):
right? Yeah.
So where's that balance? Like if you go visit a
church and this church doesn't
It's not that they're not preaching sin, but if they're
not making you feel like, at the end of the service,
if you don't feel convicted, if you don't feel like,
oh my gosh, I, I, I'm the worst person in
the world, because that's what we've been accustomed to a
(26:59):
lot of times where, no, we go to a church
and if a church doesn't preach enough sin, then people say, oh,
that church is soft, they're not bold, they, they're not
speaking the full gospel.
Yeah, I do think that that's where, like, you know,
to the church, right? We are speaking primarily to a
community of disciples, and for the community of disciples, Jesus
(27:21):
is the center, he is the standard, he is the way,
the truth and the life. And so,
I think for a church that is doing gospel teaching
and gospel preaching, it will always be recalibrating, you know,
though it may not be, you know, harping on sin
and focusing on that, we are still have a very
high standard that we are inviting people, you know, as
(27:43):
I said, like, take hold of this identity. Uh, Justin
was talking about this a moment ago, when we were
talking about, you know, Satan in the garden, these things.
Christ has gone.
Where God desired humanity to go. He is the forerunner.
He has led the way, seated, ruling over the cosmos,
and this is where our destiny is headed now, and
(28:04):
everything we're doing in this life, you know, one author says,
you know, is an internship for uh the escaton, right? Like,
we're training now for ruling and reigning with Christ. Like,
how's that going, church?
You know, how are we aligning ourselves with Christ and
his way of being, his way of communing with the Father,
his way of doing the will of the Father, his
(28:26):
way of joy, his way, you know, the yoke that's easy,
the burden that's light. And so for our church, you know,
every gathering culminates at the table.
Mhm. Right. So no matter what we're preaching on that Sunday,
and it could be, you know, Sunday that is talking
about sexual immorality. It could be a Sunday that is
talking about the works of the flesh. It could be
looking at these things, but it's, you know, not by
(28:48):
focusing on these things that we, you know, have victory,
but it's by focusing on the one who overcame, right?
It's by following him.
That we have I
Speaker 2 (28:59):
think in some sense you can even see that in
John chapter 8, right, when Jesus is talking with the
woman who's caught in the very act of adultery, he
says two things and, and this is the balance, right?
Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.
But that's not a balance, it's actually an order. He
starts with the fact that right now, forgiveness is available
(29:21):
and then is the commission to obedience.
And I do think, you know, scripture is full of
warnings and some of those warnings are for disciples and
some of them are kind of intense. They should be shared,
but there's a difference between, uh, you know, a threat
and a warning, a threat that's about punishment, it's about consequence,
(29:42):
it's animosity, a warning is something that actually can come
from a place of love that has your best interest
at heart. And so I think that difference is really,
ah really significant here.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Great conversation today on Pastor's perspective. Glenda, thank you for
sending in your question through the Pastor's perspective page on Kwave.com.
Break time, more questions coming right up.
(30:18):
Hey, we're back on Pastor's Perspective. Thanks so much for
listening and for watching today. We archive all of our
episodes on Facebook, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify in case
you don't get to hear an episode or want to
hear rehear one, you can, uh, go to either of
those and listen again. You can subscribe if you're watching
on YouTube right now, make sure you click the, uh,
(30:40):
The the bell so that you'll get notified every time
we uh do something live and also like each of
our videos as you watch them that way, um.
You know, more people find out about them. But if
you've got a question, call in 888-564-6173 is our number.
We've got Char Broderson, the lead pastor of Calvary Chapel
Costa Mesa here, as well as Justin Thomas, the president
(31:02):
of the Calvary Chapel Bible College in Bradenton, Florida, 888-564-6173
is our number. And now we're going to go to
Karina in Cyprus, who's listening on FM 107.9 K wave. Hello, Karina,
how can we help you today? What's your question?
Hi there. Um, my question has to do with, um,
(31:25):
my entire adult, well, my entire Christian life, I've attended
non-denominational churches. And in the last several years, I've noticed
that I feel like, it seems like, I don't know
if it's all the Protestantism, but
It's really gone off the rails with the NAR influence.
(31:47):
And when I try different churches, I just, I, I
get a sense that there's just a formula that everybody's following.
You sing some songs, pastor gets up, tells a little
joke or anecdote, says some scriptures, fits them into your life.
Like it just, it feels like it's so rehearsed anymore.
(32:07):
And my bottom line question is, why should I
I guess this is two questions. I don't know. Why
should I continue to attend non-denominational or even Protestant churches
as I look through the church history, it feels like
that's where it all went wrong and why shouldn't I
be Orthodox? You guys who have studied so much of
(32:29):
the Bible.
Why are you the tradition that you are and what's
the answer for me as a person who wants to
learn the Bible and not only an academic way, but
a very, very deep and reverent way? Wow. How much
time do we have? This is a great question. That's
a great question.
On a starch? Yeah, I mean, I agree. I feel
(32:51):
like when I look kind of across, especially, I mean,
let's be honest, the American church, you know, and, and
I mean, a lot of this is what I'm seeing
on social media, so I think there's probably many churches,
you know, just, uh, faithfully following in the way of Jesus,
caring for one another, the way we see the church
doing in the New Testament, you know, teaching scripture as
(33:12):
to follow Jesus and not some political agenda and things
like that.
And reaching out to their community to actually serve it
and um
Represent God's kingdom, and the way that Jesus did ministry, right?
Everywhere he healed and where he preached, he said, the
kingdom of God is brought near to you, right? There
were signs, evidences of God's reign. So I, I fully
(33:33):
believe that there are many, many churches still doing that,
and I think uh the ones that they get the
headline is where, you know, kind of where all the
excitement is, right? And so, um,
I will say, you know, we are a local church
here in Orange County that is committed to discipleship. We
are committed to a deep community and loving care for
one another and reaching out to our neighbors, and we are,
(33:54):
you know, I, I mean, I don't tell jokes, but, um,
you know, I teach for 45 minutes every Sunday morning, uh,
through scripture, right? So we are devoted to learning the
way of Jesus and how to live as citizens of
the kingdom of God from the scriptures. Um,
And yeah, one of the reasons why I am Protestant,
(34:17):
I think I just have to be honest, this is
the tradition that I grew up in, uh, and this
is something that's been passed down to me, um, and
also because of Calvary Chapel's emphasis on scripture, we are
a movement that is much more concerned with what scripture
says than what tradition says. Just, I mean, Calvary has
(34:38):
its own traditions and history, of course, right? We're gonna
be just be very honest about that.
But you know, 60 years of that compared to, you know,
thousands of years of that is a little different and
sometimes some of those traditions, especially when they're centuries old,
are really hard to kind of cut through and really
get back to why do we do what we do,
where do we get our reason for these things? And so, um,
(35:01):
I think the simple, um, or I guess the simplicity
of non-denominational evangelical Protestantism, um, is attractive to me because, um,
Anyone is welcome. And I think essentially, um, this is
(35:21):
a a way in which outsiders can like immediately feel
like they can belong, and there isn't, you know, um,
a service being done in another language. There isn't, you know,
multiple liturgical things happening that, you know, are, you know,
may be confusing, you know, if they don't have explanation
(35:43):
to them.
Um, and I've found something that's very attractive to Calvary Chapel, uh,
for me was just, it's simplicity that the most common
of people can, uh, draw near to Jesus, can pastor
people in the way of Jesus, um, and can do,
you know, continue the ministry of Jesus. And so,
(36:04):
You know, those are very simplified reasons, you know, why
I am still attracted to Protestant evangelicalism, and I recognize
too as an insider, that there's tons of problems, right?
There's a lot of dysfunction. There are things that don't
align and I often say, you know, I have friends
who'll be like, man, we really need to get those
Roman Catholics saved, and I say, yeah, how about those
evangelicals as well, you know, cause it's just like, yeah,
(36:26):
every church denomination has its issues, you know, so.
I want to hear from Justin too, but Karina, what
do you think so far of what you've heard?
Yeah, I, I do appreciate that. I, I do and
I'm just really here to take, take it all in
because I.
The older I get, the more I guess seems like
(36:49):
tradition I'm craving, I'm craving some kind of tradition, some
kind of historicity to like a root, you know, so
I've just, yeah, I'm here to take it all in. I'm, I'm,
I'm conflicted. I wouldn't say I'm confused, although I am
confused because when I start reading church history and.
I think, well, how do I even know what I
(37:10):
believe is right? How do I even know this is right?
I don't. How do I know? I've never been in
this place before and I've been a believer for 30 years. Yeah, well,
you know, Karina, the amazing thing about this is the
original text that every denomination is pulling from is the
holy scriptures, and I think if you want a template
(37:32):
for church, you want a template for what Christian.
Discipleship and community and mission and evangelism looks like, look
no further than the Book of Acts, right? That's where
it all starts, that's where it all began. You know,
look at the gospels, look at the ministry of Jesus,
because
The Book of Acts is just the carrying on of
(37:53):
that ministry. And I think for many, you know, and
I'm not, like, trust me, I'm not against tradition, I'm
not against high church liturgy, I actually appreciate so many
of those traditions and think that there's so much value there,
but I think
We can go back to the original document and we
can actually trace where many denominations got their, you know,
(38:16):
liturgical order and the things that they emphasize. You know,
for instance, like, on Sunday morning at Chop Costa Mesa,
every time at the end of our singing songs of worship,
which we take from the book of Psalms, right? From
the pages of scripture, we pray the Lord's prayer together
because Jesus said, when you pray, pray.
This. And so this is a prayer that we pray
(38:38):
to unite us, and to, you know, basically give our
allegiance again to God and to His kingdom, to do
his will to see, um, that done on earth as
it is in heaven. It's to remind us of our
dependence upon God for forgiveness, for, um, provision and for protection, right?
And so, these are traditions that churches practice, but they
(39:01):
come straight from the.
pages of scripture. And so I think for you, this
might be one of those seasons of your life where
you just need to go right back to the original
text and really know why you believe what you believe.
And then I think that will be um a helpful
template for finding a church, yes, that holds to the
(39:22):
traditions that are laid out in the scripture, uh, where
you can fellowship and be a part of what God
is doing. Justin Thomas.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah, I mean, Karina, I just want to say that
uh I, I don't.
I don't begrudge anyone right now who's struggling to find
a good church. Um, we're in such an insane season
and there's, uh, there's so many things that are hijacking, and,
and it's important to keep in mind that non-denominational is
(39:51):
a terribly unhelpful uh uh label, right? It just says
we're not this other thing, but that, that's a very
broad tent. It, it, it, it can mean pretty much
anything and we don't have time on the show to
talk about it, but also.
I think non-denominational churches are more susceptible to some of
the things that are going on right now because they're
resistant to other things, and that leaves them vulnerable on
(40:14):
their flank, if you will, but again, I'm sorry that
I don't have time to go into it, but there,
there are, there's a real problem in non-denominational churches right now.
I'll agree with you, um, and, uh, and
I struggle with it. I, I grieve it, and I,
I've counseled so many people who have moved away from
our church where they were fellowshipping with us and they're
(40:35):
in another town and they're having such a hard time
finding a good church and, and so, um, what, what
I would say is first charge right on the money.
You want a church not just that preaches from the
Bible but preaches the scriptures.
And that's not the same thing, cause you're going to
find churches who just like Charles Church, just like the
(40:55):
church I used to pastor, go right through the Bible,
but the only thing they talk about has nothing to
do with what's in the passage that week. They always
find a way to get to these other issues, and
that's not biblical, that's not allowing the Bible to speak,
but when the Bible speaks, there's freedom, there's life, there's
loving confrontation, there's counterculture, you know, uh, all of these
(41:18):
things happen and
And I kind of get the sense right now that
a lot of these churches are a little less or
harder to recognize because they're a little bit smaller, they're
kind of just keeping on where they're going, um, but,
but to answer your big question very quickly, and I
would agree with Char, part of the reason that I'm
a Protestant is because this is my background, this is,
(41:40):
I got saved in a Calvary Chapel and so this
is my family, you know.
Um, but, but another reason is because the Protestant Reformation
was basically a return to the scriptures. It was a
recognition that some places in the church had gone sideways,
and it was a, it was a path to go,
how do we reform? We reform by going back to
(42:02):
the scriptures. And so I'm not convinced that every church
that regularly opens the Bible is culturally healthy.
But I am convinced that the only way to cultural health,
even in seasons like this, is through the scriptures.
And the thing is, if you look at the New Testament,
you will find an NAR type movement. Paul called them
the super apostles. They were these ones that were convinced
(42:24):
that they must be the true Christians because they were
the victors and they were going to dominate in these
types of things. And Paul said, Why is it that
my life as an appointed apostle of Christ actually looks
like Jesus with suffering and with weakness and with humility. Um,
so this is not a new problem.
It's always existed in this church, this false idolatrous image
(42:48):
of more than conquerors, victors who will dominate the whole
world by it in the New Testament, it is proclaimed
as false and empty and dangerous, um, and sometimes it's
just the quiet little remnant, right? And so I just
encourage you, don't, don't give up on looking and
And if you want to check out an Orthodox church,
if you wanna go to a Catholic church, if you
(43:10):
want to step into an Anglican church, uh, you should
do so. Look around, but, but again, here are encouragement
that the place where you're going to find the truth
is the place where the scriptures are held up in
high regard, where they're opened regularly, where they're studied deeply,
and where they're obeyed.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
What do you think of what you've heard, Karina from now, Justin?
Well, I'll tell you what, um, you know what made
a really big impact on me just now is that
to hear that this is not a new problem and
that the remnant has survived it, so I'm quite reassured
by that. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Mhm.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
That's great. Yeah, and I'm also glad to hear that, um.
You know they're, you're out there they're out there. The
Bible teaching churches are out there, um.
Yeah, and I might go visit an orthodox. I might,
you know, I might go visit it. I've never been.
I've never done any other thing, and so maybe I will,
(44:12):
you know, and maybe that'll bring me back. I don't know.
I don't know, but I'm sure do appreciate all of
those insights and really, really what impacted me was, uh,
knowing that hearing that there was a biblical example of
sort of the same influence that's going on now and
that it's gonna be OK. Yeah.
(44:33):
Uh, my biggest fear is that my biggest prayer always
is that Lord, don't let me be deceived. Please don't
let me be deceived. I don't wanna go down the
wrong path.
Yeah, I, Karina, I just want to affirm that. I mean,
that is beautiful, like that humility, and I think that
checking your spirit, just looking at what's going on culturally, like,
(44:53):
you know, when Jesus talks about the kingdom and the gospels,
he talks about how, you know, it's like Len, it's
this thing that slowly rises. It's almost imperceptible to the eye, um,
you know, or it talks about how it's a mustard seed, right?
It's so insignificant and yet it will grow into this
tree that will fill the whole earth. And so,
(45:13):
You know, Jesus is looking at, you know, Justin was saying,
you know, there's Paul with the super apostles, but there were,
you know, the Pharisees of Jesus' day that were aligned
with these political groups that saw themselves as overthrowing the
Romans to take back the kingdom of God. And Jesus
is saying, that's not how it's gonna come.
It's gonna come actually by the death of Messiah, and
(45:34):
it's gonna come by, you know, Christ actually sending his,
you know, apostles throughout the earth to make known the
way of the kingdom is the way of the cross,
you know, I mean, it's just so
Antithetical to the way everyone was thinking and what was
gaining popularity and steam in those days. And so, you know,
I just want to affirm you, you are on the
(45:56):
right track, those checks that you have in your spirit,
that is, I believe, the spirit of God saying, yeah,
this is not it.
And so, yeah, I just want to encourage you, um, and,
you know, as you go to these other churches and look,
I think you're gonna see some really beautiful things that
are done and held by other traditions, and I think
that that can only actually, um, you know, grow your
(46:18):
appreciation for the global church and the many different expressions
of true faith in Jesus Christ.
What are some of the passages in scripture where we
can read about Paul versus the super apostles? Uh, obviously
we're not gonna find super apostles in our, uh, in
(46:39):
the con uh the, uh, in the church leadership in
the structure, is that what you're? No, in the concordance.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
It is Paul's language. Uh, so if you've got a
modern translation, that's, that's the word he uses, and so.
So you, you can't find it, but it's mostly in
2 Corinthians where he talks about these opponents and especially
from about chapter 12, uh, maybe even as far back
as chapter 11 without cracking my Bible open, where he
starts to make a contrast with these other ones, but
(47:06):
really throughout 2.
Corinthians, he's talking, knowing these guys are there, he's sometimes
addressing them, and he's speaking to a church that has
actually bought this hook line and sinker, and he's trying
to remind them of what they should know from his
own ministry as their pastor, as their spiritual father that
planted the church, and so,
Honestly, I think 2 Corinthians is a is a book
(47:27):
that deserves much more reading and especially for leadership. I
think it is the number one book in the New
Testament on leadership because it presents Paul's way of leadership,
which is the path of weakness that is actually powerful
and love that is actually capable of overcoming hatred.
Uh, and submission that actually leads to change and all
(47:50):
of these things, and so, so yeah, um, and, and
that's the last thing I'll say, Karina, and then I'd
really like to pray for you. Um, one of our,
one of the facets of our history in Calvary Chapel is,
is just revival of people who weren't church suddenly meeting
Jesus and being radically saved. But the other part is
a bunch of Christians who were discontent with the way
(48:10):
their church did things and recognized that it was in
the way of something new God wanted to do.
And that seems to be a pattern across church history,
and so all I wanna say is Karina, there may
be other people around you who are struggling with that
same discontent. You guys can open God's word together.
You can take that same part of humility and seeking
and say God, we want to understand your words, so
(48:32):
as we read it together, will you reveal yourself, um, and,
and with time, that that is the church, you know,
and whether it's organized or formal or if it has
as a pastor, churches begin when Christians gather and under
the guidance of the Holy Spirit open the word of God.
And again, the reformers understood this. They said the church
(48:53):
didn't come up with the scriptures, it was the scriptures
that made the church.
The word of God went forth and then we had
this birth of the community and so.
So I, I just encourage you, and I do really
quickly just want to close and pray for you and,
and for others who are listening in who are feeling
the same burden and weight and feeling like they're running
out of options for a healthy body of Christ to
(49:13):
be a part of. So let me just pray, God,
I lift up Karina to you, and again, I lift
up every other one who is worried, who's afraid, who
is wondering where you fit into all of this, who
just wants to hear your voice and do your will
and is looking for others to do the same.
And I pray that you would lead and you would guide,
(49:34):
and that you would even begin new works, Lord. It,
it may be, um, God, that some of these churches
still have the opportunity to turn around to find you again,
to rediscover, uh the Jesus of the New Testament, but,
but
You also are capable of doing a new work with
a new wine skin, uh, and raising up new churches,
and even if they're small, Lord, they can be places
(49:57):
of security and faithfulness and even fruitfulness. And so we
just ask God for Karina and for everyone else, God,
would you just
Have mercy on the American church and raise up faithful
ministries that represent you, that are devoted to your word,
and are not distracted by things that are not of you.
We just ask this all in your name.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
Amen. Amen.
Amen. Karina, thank you so much for calling us today
here on Pastor's Perspective. And since you mentioned church history,
it reminds me that I want to tell you guys
about the, uh, courses that are coming up at Calvary
Chapel Costa Mesa on Wednesday nights beginning October 8th. We
call it The Gathering. It's a six-week session, and, uh,
(50:39):
church history is one of the classes that you can
sign up for. It's taught by
Char's dad Brian Broderson, are you teaching a course this time?
I'm actually not teaching a course. Are you gonna sit
in on one of these? I am gonna try to
work on some new material and maybe serve a little
bit in kids' ministry.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
I didn't tell jokes in church.
Speaker 1 (50:59):
You're doing ministry, you gotta have jokes, man. All right, uh.
New content. Yes, yes,
Speaker 2 (51:09):
all night I'm gonna be picturing you at some club
downtown while church is going on.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
Just trying to get a tight five.
Char Broderson, stand-up comedian. Hey, open mic night. That's what
it'll be. Myra and SoCal, welcome to Pastor's Perspective. We've
only got a few minutes, so, uh, if you could
sum up what's going on, and we'll do our best
to give you an answer.
Hi, yes, um, I've been working for this company for
(51:33):
3 years and then for these 3 years that I've
been there, I've been harassed, bullied, you know, mistreated. I'm
the only woman there. They're all men.
Um, and, uh, I have talked to HR and they
don't do anything about it. They just moved me from
one shop to another shop. cause major depression, anxiety, you know, and, uh,
I go to church, I pray, and my prayer is
(51:56):
that God gives me the street to to be able
to deal with that. Right now I'm looking for a
new job, but my question is, is it OK that
I'm taking them to court because somebody told me to
take them to court and they told me that I
needed to fight for my rights and
I just don't know if this is what God wants,
if I do it right by taking them to court.
(52:17):
Is this a Christian organization you're working for, Myra?
Speaker 2 (52:21):
No,
Speaker 1 (52:21):
it's not. It's not a church or anything like that.
All right. What would you say, Justin?
Speaker 2 (52:26):
Yeah, uh, well, I think the most important thing, Maura,
is I don't think this is a necessarily a right
or wrong question, as in, is it never right or
is it always wrong? Um, I don't think that's the
right way to approach this, and, and what I hear
even as you share this, Myra, as you said, you
said you, you're not actually sure what God's will is here,
(52:48):
and I, I want to encourage that. Um, that's what
you want most here and
Uh, you know, there are things we can say here
with confidence. Um, there, there are things that go on
in organizations that are not right. And if you've taken
all of these steps to stop it and it hasn't
changed anything.
Then escalating that is just the way society is built
(53:11):
and it's something that the Bible affirms from beginning to
end that God has put authorities into place for this reason.
And so being able to appeal to the government because
your business is not treating you rightly is totally appropriate. OK. Now,
sometimes I do think God uh says but.
(53:33):
But I have something different for you, but I would
suggest that that you need to feel that either deep
in conviction or in clear guidance, and even then it's
not a road to be walked alone. And so, so again,
and let me just put it this way.
The Bible puts a heavy emphasis on government's role in
(53:57):
protecting the oppressed, the mistreated, uh, the vulnerable, and these
types of things, and whether you see yourself that way
or not,
Um, Myra, you have an opportunity here to change an
organization so that others won't be impacted by these things,
and generally I think that's a place where God works
(54:18):
to bring change, and again he seems content often to
do that through the avenues of appeal that we have
through the court system.
Uh, through calling the police, you know, if you had
told me that your husband was beating you and you'd say,
what does this mean for your marriage, the first thing
I'd say is call the police. That's the first thing
it means for your marriage. Um, that's always appropriate. Now,
(54:40):
what happens next after that and is your marriage over?
That's a whole another conversation. But God has put multiple
authorities in our life and embedded us in a culture
and his desire is justice.
Not vengeance, not everybody gets what they deserve because I'm
mad at them, but that righteousness would prevail, that people
would be rightly treated and that would grow. And so,
(55:03):
so again, I, I think based on what you said,
you should pray about this. You should, you should be concerned,
but you should not be afraid to go to court.
Speaker 1 (55:11):
30 seconds. Yeah, I just, you know, emphasize what Justin
was saying. Don't do it alone, Mya. Just, you know,
surround yourself with people that know you, that people that
love you.
Wise counsel in order to, yeah, discern and to walk
through such a difficult situation. So we will remember you
in our prayers. Yep, everybody watching and listening right now,
remember Myra in your prayers and Karina and everybody else
(55:33):
who we called who called in today. Uh, great episode.
Go back and listen to it if you missed any
part of it.
That you will not be disappointed. Thank you all for
listening and watching. We're gonna do this again tomorrow. We're
here every day, Monday through Friday from 3 to 4 p.m.
Pacific time, and we look forward to hearing from you
for Char Broderson and Justin Thomas. I'm Brian Perez. Thank
(55:54):
you so much for being with us today here on
Pastor's Perspective.
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