October 1, 2025 • 56 mins
Pastors' Perspective is a one-hour call-in program where listeners can call in and get answers to questions about the Bible, Christianity, family, and life. The program is live Monday through Friday from 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM Pacific. You can call 888-564-6173 to ask your questions.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:17):
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez,
and it's the first day of October. I had to check,
I forgot. And uh we're here live today answering the
questions you have about the Bible, the Christian faith, anything
that's on your mind.
Give us a call, question about doctrine or theology. Uh,
(00:37):
we'd love to hear it. We're gonna be here for
an hour. 888-564-6173 is the number to call. If you're
watching on Facebook, YouTube, or Instagram, thank you for watching
on Facebook, YouTube, or Instagram. You see that QR code
there on the bottom of your screen or off to
the left, or I, I forget where it's at, but
if you scan that, that'll take you right to the
pastor's perspective page on Kwave.com.
(00:59):
And that's where you can uh send us your question.
You can, uh, you know, type it in, it asks
for your name and stuff, and then uh a few, uh,
there's some space there for you to type in your question.
You can do that or you can go to the
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send us your question that way, or you can DM
(01:21):
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a singing telegram that hasn't been done yet, but, uh,
I expect it to happen soon. Smoke signals we have
not done either. Maybe back in the early days they did. Yes,
that's an idea too. But, um, anyway, give us a call.
We'd love to hear.
From you because that's the best way to get an
(01:42):
answer to your question. The phone number is 888-564-6173. Put
it in your phone, put it on, maybe not speed dial,
but just have it in there somewhere. Write it inside
your Bible, so that you'll remember what the phone number
is so that you can call us when you've got
a question. And answering your questions today, look who's here.
(02:02):
It's Bill We from Refuge Calvary Chapel in Huntington Beach.
I almost said the senior pastor, but that's not you anymore,
is it?
I'm the double senior pastor, senior, one that's in my
senior years. I'll put it that way. Got it. OK.
So yeah, I am the whatever pastor emeritus means, I
think that's what I am. OK, still busy. I actually,
(02:24):
I think I'm busier than ever before, but with all
kinds of stuff. I'm traveling a little bit, getting ready
to do some, uh, some, uh, travel to Israel for
a pastor's conference over there with the Israeli and Arab
pastors together. Can you imagine that?
Oh actually come together and love each other. It's a
beautiful thing. And, uh, yeah, growing family, I think, uh,
(02:47):
since I was on here, um, I've, I have my
10th grandchild now, 10, yeah, little Mary May. How do
you keep track of them all? I, uh, have a wife.
It helps with that.
But if I have to quickly rattle off their names,
I got a pause on my way through the rattling
to get them all. But yeah, they're precious. All of them,
(03:09):
they're from the age of 23, almost 24 now, down
to uh, 5 months. OK, yeah, from Emmy down to
Mary May. Very nice. It's a, it's a sweet. Oh,
congratulations on number 10. All right, our guest has joined us.
Shepherd's coming up too, getting ready, it's gonna be the
busiest year I've ever done this.
(03:29):
Um, I think I already have 14 different performances of
the Shepherd of Bethlehem plan, and a lot of them
are sorry, are you starting like tomorrow or something? because
that's no, just, uh, I'm gonna start a little bit
early in November, but then, uh, December's getting packed. OK,
so yeah, it's, it's the 40th year of, uh, doing
this presentation. It's a blast. So if somebody wants to
(03:49):
invite you to come to their church to do the
Shepherd of Bethlehem play, how would they do that?
Uh, a good thing to do would be to, uh,
call at the refuge, and, um, they can call at 714-907-1177,
or they could also email me at bill at refugefamily.com.
(04:10):
Very nice. There you go. All right.
Hi Dave. Dave, this is Bill. Well, that's Dave. So, uh, Dave,
why don't you tell Bill a little bit about yourself,
and then Bill, you can tell Dave about yourself. Uh,
it's good to be here. Sorry, traffic was a little intense.
I'm a professor at By University teaching in the undergrad
(04:30):
Christian Ministries program at Talbot School of Theology. So I
was meeting with a student and that ran a little
late with traffic, so I apologize for getting here.
Yeah, so I, uh, have been in ministry for 38
years and, uh, currently working alongside all of that viola.
No, I was a youth pastor for 29 years, teaching
(04:52):
pastor for 9, and now, uh, and I've been in
Viola for 16 years full time, but, uh, the joy, uh,
I get to do is being with students and teaching
God's word at churches. The guy who preached the gospel
the night that I got saved ended up being the.
Uh, Dean of male students at Viola for about 10 years,
(05:12):
Rick Hicks, and then he went on to, uh, gosh,
he went up the mountain mountains to, um, Forest Home
for a while and then was with Operation Mobilization for
a long, long time. It's good to be back in
touch with him too. He's here in the valley with
us actually. That's good to meet you, Dave.
Very cool.
Very cool. My mic was off. Now it's on. All right,
(05:32):
so Dave, good to have you here. Thanks for coming in.
We are ready to answer some questions that you guys
might have about the Bible. So we're gonna begin with
Brittany and Antelope, who's watching us on YouTube. Hi there, Brittany,
thanks for calling in to Pastor's Perspective.
Yeah, hi. Hi there.
What's going on? How can we help you?
(05:54):
Well, my question is, if Christians are supposed to do
everything for the glory of God, how come this state
my proposition for California, you know, seems to be more
more of a political issue than an ethics issue, or
is it kind of a matter of both? And how,
(06:14):
how would a Christian best vote in this situation where
you don't really exactly know how to pick sides. OK, Dave,
what would you say?
Well, first of all, I would say, um, scripture talks
a lot about Christians.
Uh, thriving and serving in the authority of, of humans.
(06:34):
I mean, the early churches, they were
Uh, working through struggles under Nero definitely had things I
think as bad or worse than we have here in California.
And so even to them, Paul talked about, you know,
as hard as it is to believe that, yes, I know,
but I would say none of us have been impaled
on poles and lit on fire. No, not this week
because of our faith. So yes, not this week. I
(06:56):
think there's a, there's an attitude that God has for
us to say where we can submit, we submit and
we biblically get involved to create the good around us.
I don't think that means you have to be excited
about everything a candidate might support, but there are enough
values that are in alignment that I think you can
agree with particular candidates. And then if you can't agree
(07:18):
with them, then you don't vote for them. And you know,
if it's not a majority vote, you're still knowing that
I didn't vote for this and I'm doing my best
in my space of the world to create good for
God to operate on.
How do you do it when there's an issue that's
not necessarily like a moral issue, like it's not about
(07:41):
abortion or marriage or something like that, like when it
comes to, you know, redistricting the state or something, it's like, well,
that might be a, that might not be something moral, uh,
how do you navigate things like that? I think it's
kind of what Brittany was wondering about.
I think wisdom and prayer, you, you start to ask,
what are some, the implications, some of these choices that
(08:04):
we're asked to make might seem not so, um, nefarious
on the surface, but they have other applications that can
be applied to. And so I think having conversations with
other Christians and just saying, hey, how do we influence
our community for the good.
And I think a lot of things start from the
ground up. In other words, I think we try to say,
(08:24):
how do you, how do you influence your local school district, right?
Because they're the ones that are choosing curriculum. They're the
ones that are choosing policies. So if, you know, don't
think just at the, at the state level, sometimes the
way to really get involved and and do good is
to find out who's going to be in your city council,
who's going to be on, on the state, uh sorry,
on the school board.
(08:45):
And let that be where you influence for the good
of having the right values that you want to see
in your particular city and school. Yes, the only thing
that I would, uh, add alongside of that is, um, to,
to remember that there's no category in our life that
we don't want to invite, um, the Lord into. He's either, uh,
(09:06):
and it was, I think it was, um, Jay Hudson
Taylor who said, Christ is either Lord of all or
he's not Lord at all.
And so I can't think of a category in my
life where I would say I can approach that without
considering the implications of me being a follower of Jesus
and representing him here. And some of them, it's, it's
kind of a slam dunk, but when it comes to
(09:28):
the political issues, Brittany, I think it's in a really,
really important to get yourself informed.
And then get yourself involved. So study the, the, the measures,
study the propositions that are coming up and like you're saying,
the redistricting. OK, how, how does the gospel, you know,
(09:50):
you know, impact that? Well, I, I'm not sure, but
when I, I wanna get to know the candidates, I
wanna hear the arguments on both sides of it, and
I wanna read not only what they're saying.
But kind of, you know, get catch the temperature of
uh or or the gauge of where are they coming
from and do they are they still as a public servant.
Serving the public, are they serving their, their own, you know,
(10:14):
personal agenda or bias. So I, I would certainly encourage
you not to sit out the, the elections but to
be involved and, and I tell you it really is
a case every time the election comes around there's people
in the church that say show me how to fill
out my ballot. Tell me what vote yes or no
and which name and I might wanna do, I might
(10:34):
talk to them after a service and say, well, I
can tell you how I'm, I'm voting.
And if, if you're interested in that, but I don't
wanna make that the core issue. I don't want to
shy away from what's happening in our, in our culture,
and politics is a big part of what's happening in
our culture. So, I don't want to let it invade.
You know, the, uh, um, you know, the culture of
the church to the point that that's all that we're
(10:55):
known for. So, um, that was me accidentally hit the
wrong button. Um, but anyway, I hope that's helpful to you, Brittany,
make get yourself really informed and, and pray like Dave said.
And then, uh, do your civic duty. Mhm, yeah, very good.
All right, Brittany, thanks for your phone call today here
on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is our number. Here is Sophia
(11:21):
calling from Lake Forest, California, listening on FM 107.9 K wave. Hello, Sophia,
what's on your mind today?
Hi, um, so I, I'm getting married this month. Congratulations. Yeah.
Thank you so much. I'm so excited. Um, however,
I made the decision to not invite my mom, my
(11:44):
biological mom, for the reason that she's a relapsed drug
addict and
I am having a hard time, um.
I guess, uh, like I wanna make sure that I'm full.
Hold on, your phone is breaking up a little bit.
(12:07):
Your phone was breaking up a little bit. We didn't
hear that last part of your question. Do you mind
saying it again?
So, yeah, so I, I wanna make sure I'm, I'm
like following in Jesus' footsteps and doing my best to
be a righteous woman and obviously not inviting my mom is, is,
is a big decision to make and, and I don't
(12:27):
make it lightly, um, but there's been a lot of
Turmoil in our relationship to where it's just this is
just what I feel like is best for me but
then there's the other side where I'm trying to please
God and I know like I know for, for a
fact Jesus would invite her, right? Like that's I mean
(12:49):
Jesus forgives Jesus is perfect and he loves everybody and
and unfortunately I am I'm not Jesus like I.
Still feel hurt and it has nothing to do with forgiveness. I,
I've forgiven her. I understand like she's been through more
than anybody should have to go through in one lifetime
(13:12):
and so I forgive her and.
But I still don't want her there. So I just,
my question is, like, how do I know that I'm
making the right choice? Yeah. So quick question for you, Sophia,
another one. are you afraid that she's going to show
up high or something at your wedding or that something's
(13:32):
gonna happen because of her current state?
Or is it just because of issues in general?
I would say both. It's a fear. I, I guess
it's a fear of both. All right, Dave, we'll start
with you.
You know, forgiveness is one of those reconciliation tasks that
we're all called to do, but forgiveness does not always repair.
(13:57):
The consequences of people's choices. Even, you know, Sophia, as
you described her as your biological mom, it makes me,
it makes you think that you might have other women
in your life that are more of a mom to
you than if for you to describe her as your
biological mom. So I'm not 100% sure if that's how
it is, but
But the reality is there is pain, like you said,
going on here, and, and perhaps there's another way to
(14:20):
bring about to see if there could be reconciliation that
would make you comfortable to have her there that day.
I don't know if it's an issue of
Um, sin, like you had said in the question, like,
is this a sin to not invite her? I don't,
I don't think that is a sin. I would, I
would encourage you to say, if you're seeking God's best
(14:42):
and God is putting upon your heart to say, look,
there's too much pain that this has brought on. This
is not the place for us to deal with this
at a wedding with all the other pressure that you'll
have that day because it's not uh a low stress
moment for you as good and glorious as a wedding is.
Then it might be to say, hey, this is just
not the, the time or the place for us to
take that next step for us.
(15:04):
So, um, and that, that's unfortunate to the pain that, that,
you know, when
When drugs are involved, and there's a lot of addiction
that takes place and a lot of pain that comes
in involved for families that have had to deal with,
with those who have been addicted. And so that you,
I hear in your heart an an act of mercy
that you want to extend to your, to your biological mom,
(15:24):
but also trying to think through then what is best
for this particular moment. And so I don't think you
need to put this in the category of a sin.
I don't think you need to say, well, Jesus would
have done this, so I must too. I think you
need to to to rightly understand the
The journey of recovery that your mom, your biological mom's
been on, but also the journey of recovery that you've
been on in the healing of this relationship and and
(15:47):
say this, this might not be appropriate for where this
relationship is right now. Bill, um, and a couple of
questions for you, Sophia. Um, when, when is your wedding?
How far away is it?
October October 31st. All right, on the way in the
other end of the month. That's my son-in-law's birthday. Nice.
Happy birthday, Pastor Jeff, but um, um, how does your
(16:10):
future husband feel about not inviting your mom?
He's fully supportive, um, and
Yeah, I do say biological mom, like I do have
a lot of other women I look up to, but
there was a time when my mom and I were very,
very close, um, so it's like recent that this has been,
I wouldn't say recent, it's been a few years that
(16:30):
this has been going on, but it's not the first time. Um,
but anyways, he's, he's supportive and he agrees that having
her Oh, there's that phone phasing thing again. He agrees, what?
He agrees that it would not be the most comfortable
situation for us or for a lot of the guests, like,
(16:53):
you know, her family. Got it. And is your mom
aware of of the fact that you're wrestling with this
decision right now? You think she'd be surprised if she
wasn't invited? Does she even know you're getting married? If
she's listening on the radio right now, she's gonna say, oh,
now I know the date. I just need to figure
out where it is.
Yeah, right. She does know I have to break it
(17:17):
to her.
Like last week actually, um, but she does know, and
I mean, I'm not sure if she knows that I'm
like wrestling. I wouldn't say I'm wrestling with the decision,
like the the decision has been made. I'm just more
wrestling with the guilt that comes with it. Uh, OK. Yeah, and,
and I would, I, I guess I would not to
(17:38):
throw more weight on you, Sophia, but, uh, the regret
that might be down the road for you, and yeah,
I mean it could certainly be a a step towards healing.
Um, if she were invited, but, uh, I, I would
not impose my will on that, you know, from the
distance of, you know, just talking over the, over the
(17:58):
phone or over the radio on this, but, um, I,
I wonder if there's a way that you can have
a conversation with your mom about that so that it
becomes a a blessing to both of you and and
to your family, but um.
I would, would love to be, would love to pray
for you on that. Can we do that? Oh, sure, sure,
sure before we pray. Sophia, you were talking about guilt.
(18:19):
I don't know if what I would say is what
you're feeling is guilt. Maybe it's grief. Maybe you're sad
about the loss of having your mother there because you
recognize it's not the right moment for your relationship, and that's,
that's something to grieve because there's something that won't be
as you were hoping it would be.
(18:39):
And so sometimes we call things guilt when it really
is just uh uh recognizing of a natural emotion of
sadness or what is, you know, if, if things are
not where things should be with you and your mom.
Then, then that's what, that's what you're grieving and it's
not necessarily the guilt of denying her that access. That's
a really good point because what daughter doesn't want her
(19:02):
mom to be in in the wedding and everything. So yeah,
that could be, that could very well be. Yeah, I've
I've I've told, I've told her that like literally those
exact words I told her like I want nothing more
than to have you there. I just
I want you there as a different version, which, you know,
which is, yeah, I guess, and that definitely resonates a
lot more I guess it is a it's definitely feels
(19:24):
more like grief, but. Yeah. And you know, a lot
can happen in 30 days. A whole lot can happen
in a relationship in in 30 days with conversation and
expectations and all of that, and, and I, and I'm,
I'm not suggesting that you do this next thing.
I'm gonna tell you, but when my wife Joy and
I got married 52 years, uh, 4 months and 28
(19:49):
days ago, 29 days ago now.
Um, can you do that, Dave? I'm pretty sure I'm
right on this, but I could be off by a
day or two. we were, we were in Long Beach, and, um,
I remember inviting strangers on the street to our wedding.
People that we, we met in the coffee house that
we were working in a little Christian coffee house down in,
(20:10):
in Long Beach, uh back in the 70s and um
I just, I wanted the, uh, I wanted anybody that
wanted to come to our wedding to come to our
wedding and uh and a couple of them did, and
we had a couple of guys from the coffee house
that we were part of that were really wrestling with
sobriety and they showed up and uh it was a,
it was a blessing to have them there and they
(20:32):
behaved which was wonderful. I knew it was a bit
volatile but.
Um, and I'm not trying to make, uh, make light
of this at all, Sophia. Um, I, I, I can
feel the weight that you're carrying on that, so, um,
let's pray for you.
Father, I thank you for Sophia, and I, I, uh, I,
I just thank you, Father, for the blessing that you're
giving her and her husband at the end of this
(20:54):
month to become one and to serve you together as
a husband and wife, and I pray that you would
just give her wisdom. I pray for healing between her
and her mom as well, Father, and I pray for her,
her mother to just uh to to make some steps
towards um towards a a new version of herself and.
And finding peace that she needs to find, Father, so
(21:15):
just pray that you'd give, uh, just simple wisdom to
Sophia on this and her husband, and pray that your
blessing would be over that day at the end of
this month in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Amen. Thank you, Sophia,
for calling in today to Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is our number.
Let's go to Glendora now. Here is Mike. Hey, Mike,
(21:36):
thanks for calling in today. What's your question?
Well, thank you. I listen to you guys every day
and when I heard that Bill was on today, I
just wanted to say hi to him, but I do
have a question. Bill, Mike Antoni. Oh, Mike, yes, great
to hear your voice, brother.
Man, I see all your posts on Facebook and it's
so great to see an old guy doing something good.
(21:58):
Oh no, do you see all of them?
Oh, I'm sorry.
No, it's all good. But listen, I, um, I've, uh,
Been attending a church here in Glendora for the last
3 years or so and love it dearly, uh, starting
to get reinvolved in, uh, just ministry light, if you will,
(22:18):
just get, I've been kind of, uh, I've been working
in the, in the, uh,
Outside of the ministry field for a while. And I
love it and, and gonna be attending it, continuing. They
take a reform position, um, and I'm wondering how that's
going to factor in.
(22:38):
To my being there and my getting more further involved,
what I, what should I be looking for now, because
you know Bill, I assume you've got a like a
Calvary Chapel background and so you're wondering, is this, yeah,
I was on staff at Calvary Chapel Westgrove for 12 years.
I think as, as actually Bill, I think started moved
(22:59):
into ref refuge, uh, Huntington, uh, while I was there, so.
What do you say to him, I've been I've I
just know what to uh.
You know, I have, uh, I've had the, the real
honor over the, the 55 years, almost 55 years that
(23:19):
I've been a, a Christian to serve in a lot
of different, uh, theological contexts with, uh, the Quaker Church
up in, uh, their camping program up in the mountains
and a couple of their churches around Long Beach and, and, um,
and when Pentecostal churches as well and uh.
An Anglican church that sponsored us into Australia, many, many
(23:41):
different uh congregations, but I, I've never been in a
position where coming in as a Calvary Chapel uh pastor
who basically we, we have what I think what what
I would call Pentecostal light theology and um but I
I've I've never um been involved in a in a reform.
Um, congregation. I've, I've known a lot of reformed people.
(24:04):
I've gone in and ministered in churches like that, but
I've never been a part of a staff or, um, in,
in the, in the steady, you know, week to week ministry. I,
I think you might find uh a a bit of challenge,
but I would wanna sit down and talk with uh
whoever is or are they asking you to pastor the church, Mike?
Or be the the regular teacher or no, OK. Yeah, no, no,
(24:29):
it's at this point in time, it's a group leading
position and other support things in the men's ministry just being, uh,
that tights two guy. But no, no official position of
leadership within the church, am I even seeking at this point.
Well well staffed, they're such a wonderful church. Yeah, I,
I would say depending on, on how intense they might
(24:50):
be about their theological grid.
That they believe in, you could be having some really
robust conversations, and that would be that that would, you know,
cause growth for everybody I would hope, but I wouldn't
see any reason not to serve God's people there if
there's a slot for you, Dave.
It sounds like the community that you're a part of
you are enjoying the spiritual fellowship and that's significant because, um,
(25:16):
finding people that you can love and be loved by
finding a church that is preaching the Bible and really
focusing on the gospel of Christ, I think are the
central factors. Um, some of the reform application seems to
be more secondary issues usually, not primary to the gospel.
And so that's where I would
(25:36):
Have conversations, you know, um, that's what we do at Biola.
I mean, biola is a very evangelical conservative, uh, theological perspective,
but even in our Bible classes, we, we do bring
up scriptures and how those same scriptures are interpreted by
other people from other viewpoints, because the more that we
can have conversation about God's word, the deeper our understanding
of God's word is. And so I think there's nothing
(25:59):
but to be gained if, if you're enjoying the community,
if you feel like they're teaching God's word.
Then on some of these secondary theological issues, let's just
have conversation and find ways that we can find agreement
and then where we can't, maybe it's not really that
big of a deal to have that kind of diversity
because there's people who love Jesus sincerely and perhaps on
both sides of that question. Yeah, for sure. Mike, what
(26:21):
do you think?
I think that's awesome, and, and you did, uh, confirm.
What, where I was heading, uh, where I was hoping
to be too, they are an amazing church that exhibits
community and all that they do and teaches intelligently through
the word of God and in an expositorial way. They
(26:43):
check all the, the, uh, the, the boxes, including the, um,
Including the worship piece. So, yeah, it's amazing. And, and
I just want to be a part of it and be,
you know, be helpful. And I don't want to,
You know, uh, uncircumstantial things, uh, or small differences that
(27:04):
are not, uh,
To get in the way of what God's doing. So, so, Mike, what,
what's the name of this amazing church? Because the way
you describe it, there might be people who live in
the Glendora area who might be thinking, you know what,
maybe I can get plugged into something like that.
Yeah, thanks. It's Foothill Church. It's in Glendora on, um,
(27:24):
baseline and Grand. And, uh, we're there, we're celebrating 85 years, uh,
this weekend actually in a big celebration. It just so happens. I, I,
I've been there for 3 years and it's just really a, uh, uh,
a blessing and I've been a Calvary guy since, you know, 70.
My daughter was born in, uh,
(27:47):
82. So I've been a Calvary guy since '82. It
almost sounds like the beginning of a joke. A Calvary
guy walks into a reformed church, and no, I don't know. Anyway,
all right, great, Mike, thank you for calling in today
from Glendora here on Pastor's Perspective. It was predestined.
That he would walk in there for sure, I guess so, yes,
and that he would call in today at 888-564-6173. Got
(28:10):
some more calls coming up, but we've also got a
break coming up, so I think I'll wait until after
the break to take another call. This is Pastor's Perspective.
We're here Monday through Friday from 3 to 4 in
the afternoon, and we answer the questions you call in
with about the Bible, the Christian faith, finding a church, etc.
Give us a call 888-564-6173. We've got
(28:31):
Bill Welsh, pastor emeritus at Refuge Calvary Chapel in Huntington Beach.
You hear Bill here on the radio Monday through Friday
at 4:30 a.m. or PM? Both, actually. Funny how that
worked out, huh? Just like Pastor's perspective is on Monday
through Friday at 3 o'clock. AM or PM? Both, actually. And, uh,
you didn't know. 3 a.m. wake up. We play the, uh,
(28:53):
so like today's program will air tomorrow at 3 in
the morning. I'll set my alarm. Yes.
Dave Keene is here too. He's a professor and chair
of Christian ministries at the Talbot School of Theology at
Biola University, Biola.edu is how you can find out more
about Biola and about Dave. So, are we ready to,
(29:14):
ready for another round, guys? Yeah. OK. I just noticed
you guys are wearing almost matching shirts. How about that?
That's right. You called each other, yes. Well, I didn't
get that memo. Thanks for not calling me. No, I'm,
I'm offended. No. Anyway.
Uh, if you're watching on Facebook, YouTube or Instagram, what
do you think? Matching shirts, pretty nice, huh? 888-564-6173, we
shall return momentarily.
(30:19):
Alright, we're back on Pastor's Perspective. Thanks so much for
listening and for watching on Facebook, YouTube or Instagram. My name,
maybe you're watching on all three at the same time.
That would be interesting. But, uh, my name is Brian
Perez here with Bill We, the pastor emeritus of Refuge
Calvary Chapel in Huntington Beach.
And Dave Keene, he's a professor at the Talbot School
of Theology at Biola University, and we were just talking
(30:42):
off the air for a few minutes about the foundation
that you've set up for your son, Adam. Tell us
about that in case people are tuning in for the
first time and haven't heard your story before. Yeah, so, uh,
I have an amazing family. My daughter and her family
live in Atlanta. They're listening right now on on YouTube.
So Eva, love you. You're probably getting ready for bed.
But, uh, our oldest son, Adam, uh, passed away 3
(31:05):
years ago, suddenly from a brain aneurysm. Adam was 24
at the time and a youth pastor in Glendora. And
as part of our response to grief, we wanted to
keep his legacy for the gospel going. Adam was so
passionate in how he served the church and shared the
gospel students. And so we have started a foundation that
comes alongside.
Young youth pastors who are in their first vocational foray
(31:27):
in the ministry, and we, we coach them up because
there are a lot of challenges that pastors experience when
they're right out of seminary or right out of Bible
College that they didn't expect. And so we have veteran
youth leaders and ministry leaders that come alongside these coach,
these young guys for free. We coach them up and
then we actually give them some financial resources to build
into their ministry to help them really take a next
(31:49):
sustainable step for the gospel in their community. And it's
been
Amazing to coach. Um, this is our 2nd year of
coaching right now we're coaching 15 youth pastors across the
United States and Canada, and, uh, we have seen such
a need. We've had so many more applicants for our
coaching grant than we had the resources to give. And so, um,
(32:10):
but as God is continuing to give us more resources,
we're actually looking to start another cohort soon here so
you can look at the Adam Keanfoundation.com, and you could
go on to get involved and apply for one of
our coaching grants.
And, uh, we'll start that in January. You can also
gift a new youth pastor starter kit to any youth
pastor in the United States that you know of. We'll
(32:30):
send it free of charge to anyone that you tell
us as a young youth pastor and could use some resources.
We have books and digital downloads that we've been given
that we, we share with, uh, with just the community.
So we love to
See what God's doing to build up the church because
these young ministry leaders, both men and women, are the
next leaders of the church. They're gonna take over when
(32:51):
Bill and I are retired someday. Yes. So find out
more about the Adam Keane Foundation at Adam Keanefoundation.com. Keane
is spelled K E E H N, Adam Keanefoundation.com.
All right, more phone calls now. 888-564-6173. Christina in Richmond, Virginia,
(33:12):
listening on the Kwave app. Welcome to Pastor's perspective, Christina.
Thank you very much. Yeah, what's going on? How can
we help you? Yeah, my uh granddaughter just called and
we were talking, I was telling her about the 5:25
I've set up and she said, oh, that won't be
(33:35):
necessary because since mom's gonna be moving there uh to Minnesota,
I'm going to get free tuition.
So I really don't need, you know, help with that,
but I do need help with my rent. Uh, whereupon
I asked her, are you still living with, uh, your boyfriend?
(33:59):
And she said, yes. And I said, well, then I'm,
I'm sorry, I can't do it. I'll be happy to
pay for your books, though.
You know, and um, she, she knows that it's against
my lifestyle um my choice of lifestyle, you know, with
being a Christian and um
(34:20):
Um, so she's, she's upset and wants to talk about
it more. Hm, OK, well, that's, I would say that's
a good thing. She didn't just slam the phone down
or anything, which nowadays you can't really slam a phone
down cause they're all cell phones. If you slam your
phone down, it'll break. It's not like the good old
days when we could slam a phone down. Anyway, I digress. Dave,
what would you say to Christina?
(34:41):
Sounds like the money you had for your granddaughter was
actually in this 525 account, correct? Like it's actually in
a mutual fund? No, no, actually, um, I paid, I
paid for a partial uh last year without, without, she
didn't tell me about the um
(35:04):
Uh, whether you, you know, the money she got for
good grades and things like that. So I gave her, um,
17,500 towards school straight out, and this time I wanted
to make sure whatever I
I gave her was, you know, according to what she
(35:26):
really needed.
Because she does live a different lifestyle than what I
Then what is, you know, the Lord would want. And
I mean, but I do want to support her too.
I mean, even if it means giving her um
Uh, grocery cards or something like that.
(35:49):
So essentially what you're, you're saying to her is, you
pay your rent.
And I'll pay other other bills for you.
Is that correct? So you're, cause, cause the rent is
directly related to her living situation and that's where you
wanna draw the line? Draw the line, yes. Well, even
if you feel comfortable with that. If you give her
(36:09):
money to buy groceries, I mean, she might make a
sandwich for her boyfriend or something with them. That's true. I, I,
I think this is a great conversation to, to say, OK,
I love you and because you're my granddaughter.
I'm gonna give you something. It may not be what
you would have given her for her schooling. You're not
gonna give her all, all that money, but you're saying, hey,
(36:30):
I'll help you with a gift and how you want
to use this gift is, is, is your call. If
you want to put it towards rent, you put it
towards rent. If you wanna, because what you're, you're not
trying to
You've already made it known to her, you don't approve of,
of this lifestyle choice. She doesn't need to, you know, have. No.
You don't want her to make the change just for money, right?
(36:51):
You want Christ to change her heart. And so I
think to keep that relationship and that conversation going is
where you say, I love you, I'm going to give
you something to help and you decide what that is
between you and and and God and then
You're saying, you know, I, I wanna, I wanna, I,
I love you. I wanna keep supporting you, and I want,
you know, you to see what God has for you. That's,
(37:12):
that's so good and so, so right. Yeah. Bill, any
thoughts from you? Um, I would say do the, do
all the good you can for your, for your granddaughter, and,
and bless her. How many times does God has God
blessed us when we didn't deserve it. He fed us
long before we were even interested in him and walking
with him, so.
(37:32):
Um, bless as much as you can, and that that
blessing might soften the heart and, and change the trajectory
of their lives.
OK. I would, I would agree with that.
All right. What do you think, Christina? Right.
Uh, I'm totally open to doing that. All right. You know,
(37:53):
I love her very much and I want her to
be able to succeed, and I know, um, you know,
she's gonna go into medical school, but because of some
health problems, she can't do that now. Um, so of course,
but I would help her health wise, but she, her
mom's already got that covered with good insurance.
(38:15):
For which she's under, so I don't have to worry
about that. They've. Yeah. Yeah, I just say, I think
you just keep expressing love and, and you, and you
love regardless, and you try to help someone in their
tangible need because
As you get them through that that crisis, they may
have now other opportunities to think more deeply about their
(38:36):
life choices and where they're headed. And so,
You know, how do we, how do we do that?
She already knows where you stand. She doesn't need the
money to con to confirm that. Yeah. Christina, thanks for
your phone call today here on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is
the number to call. We're gonna be here for about
1520 more minutes, so call in 888-564-6173. Josh and San
(39:01):
Diego listening on the Kwave app. Hello, Josh, thank you
for downloading the app and thank you for calling in today.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Afternoon, gentlemen. Uh, real quick, just want to say whoever
you guys have answering the phones, they're always such a pleasure,
they're kind, um, and they actually seem really excited when,
when we call in and give our names and ask
our questions. So great production team on the back end. Um,
Speaker 1 (39:25):
Hats off to Lin Hackman.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Lynn Hackman, you, you put a smile on my face today, Lynn. Um, so,
I was in church on Sunday, a guest speaker was
there and he was talking about the, uh, the lightning
rod topic of speaking in tongues, and was talking about
a time that he was speaking in tongues, and he
told the congregation that he, he ran out of words
(39:48):
to say and let the spirit take over. And there
was the implication that it, it kind of became a
spiritual language or almost gibberish. And I thought that was
kind of interesting. So I dove into Acts last night.
And noticed that when the apostles were given the gift
of speaking in tongues, that the, they actually lapsed into
(40:09):
discernible known languages at the time. There was the people outside,
and everyone said, there's, you know, and I started underlining
and like, OK, that was a language at the time,
a known language at the time. And I guess my
question is this, um,
Is speaking in tongues, does one speak in another language,
or is it a spiritual language? The only time I
(40:32):
have ever experienced this was somebody who was speaking over
where they were praying over me, and then they started
speaking and I didn't understand a single word they said
and it went on for about 3 or 4 minutes
and I'm curious to know.
Theologically, is speaking in tongues a known discernible language for
(40:54):
which there is somebody there to interpret, or is it
more so a spiritual language, or is it both? Help
me rectify what I heard Sunday with what's in Acts,
if possible.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
All right, Dave Keene. Yeah, so I think we have
two different activities happening here. One is the spiritual gift
of tongues, which is speaking in a different known language,
when
Peter was having the moment of Pentecost and the apostles
and other Christians were speaking different languages. There was a
purpose for that. It wasn't just sensation, it was people
(41:28):
of different countries hearing the gospel, hearing truth from God
spoken in their language. That's why when Paul writes about
if there's gonna be the gift of tongues in a service,
worship service, there needs to be the gift of interpretation,
so that this is not just gibberish, this is not
just
You know, sensation, but there actually is a message from
(41:49):
God to a group of people. Now, what is taking
place oftentimes in churches with when there's, it's in the
act of prayer, it really is what's going on in
in Romans chapter 8. When, when Romans chapter 8, it
does talk about in, in, um,
That when we don't know what to pray, God gives
us the words to pray, and that's in verse 26
(42:13):
and uh and 27. And the idea there is, it's
not gibberish, it's God kind of filling in the gap
of where our brain doesn't know how to verbalize what
God's intention is and so God in that moment is speaking.
Some people will speak that out loud.
But it doesn't have to be out loud. In other words,
(42:34):
God is always interceding. His spirit is interceding with me,
but it doesn't have to be a spoken.
You know, prayer, it could just be simply God, as
I in my silence is filling the gap between myself
and and God through the Holy Spirit. And so you
have two different things. One is the gift of the
spiritual gift of tongues, which has to have interpretation. The
(42:56):
other is this spirit intercession that we would often refer
to in a prayer language moment, that is not meant
to be.
Really spoken necessarily because it's between us and God. It's
not really meant for the community's benefit. Yeah, yeah, I,
I will give you some homework. Read 1 Corinthians 12
(43:16):
through 14, and right in the middle of it. I
love the way that Paul put love right in the
middle of this, uh, three chapter conversation with the, uh,
or epistle.
Um, that, that he wrote to the Corinthians about, you know, the,
the use and the abuse, sometimes the misuse of spiritual gifts,
and he's campaigning for order in the church and, um,
(43:40):
and not giving yourself to something that's gonna make it
very easy for visitors who came into the gathering, maybe unbelievers,
they came into the gathering and and they're exposed to
something that what in the world was that all about?
But um.
Where the the what's the passage where Paul said, I
will pray with the spirit and I'll pray with the
(44:00):
understanding as well, um, and they're time and I, I,
I guess you'd say I speak in tongues a lot,
but I, I've never done it publicly. I've never, you know,
blasted out in a in a public utterance because it's
those times when I get to the end of what
I can say to God in my um in the
only language I know which is English, and I don't
know that very well.
(44:22):
Um, but I want to get to the end of
what I can communicate to God and what I'm feeling and, and,
and have you ever come to that, that place, Josh,
where it's like, oh, there's more burden in my heart, and,
and I want to go on and praying for that person.
I don't know what to say and
And I, I love the fact that in I think
it's in.
In Romans, where he says the the spirit helps us
(44:42):
with groanings, it can't be which means translated, right? Yeah, well,
that's that's Ros it's 8:26 and 27 yeah, yeah. And
so he says the spirit goes to work on something
that I know I'm communicating my heart to God as
I'm as I've got this person sort of, you know, uh,
I was gonna use the wrong term there. I've got
this person in on target.
(45:03):
And I know that they're going through an excruciating time
or whatever, and I get to the end of what
I can express in the language that I know, and
just usually know louder than a whisper unless I'm alone somewhere,
I'll just begin to continue to to speak in in
a language that I have never learned that I would
(45:24):
call some people would call it their prayer language or
whatever that is, but there's mystery behind it, and and
I've got to tell you this is one of those
points where I, I call in.
A couple of my absolute favorite verses of all times, and,
and one of them is uh is David in um Psalm, um,
is it 33, uh maybe maybe it's it's 32. I,
(45:48):
I did look it up and then I lost it. Oh,
it's 31. He says, Lord, my heart is not haughty
or arrogant, nor my eyes lofty, neither do I concern
myself with great matters, nor with things too profound for me.
I've calmed and quieted my heart.
Uh, David said, I come to the place where there's
things going on, um, in my life that are mysterious,
(46:08):
and he said, I'm not gonna let that, um, bother me.
I'm not gonna let it knock me down and in
Deuteronomy 29:29, it says there are secret things that belong
to the Lord.
But those things which are revealed belong to us and
to our children forever, that we may do all the
words of this law. So all of that to say,
I think when it comes to this discussion about the
the the gift of spiritual language or um speaking in tongues,
(46:33):
praying in tongues.
I'll pray with the with the understanding or or I'll
I'll pray with the spirit that I've got lots of
room for that to exist, but not to the point
where it creates a circus in a gathering of God's people, and,
and I think with good leadership in a church like that,
it takes some instruction to get people on the same
(46:55):
page of understanding. So I don't know, did did did
I over answer that, Josh?
Speaker 2 (47:01):
No, and, and, and I think that the verse you
brought up in regards to the spirit intercedes on our
behalf of groans and utterances. And that's what I was
thinking about. But are those groans and utterances with which
the spirit intercedes, are, are we aware of those? And
it sounds like what you're saying.
Is that those groans and utterances can make their way
(47:23):
into and become our prayer life. Am I understanding you
correctly
Speaker 1 (47:28):
there? Yeah, it's it's an element in the sense that
you don't know what more to pray, but you know
something is there that God is putting in your heart.
And sometimes for myself, that's more silently done as I
sit there and prayer in silence, but for other people
they allow.
That, um, rumbling to come up and out and verbalize
(47:50):
it and it's just more of their, their way of
identifying God is speaking here, not me in this intersession
in prayer, and they'll they'll literally use that passage from
Romans 8:26 of, I'm groaning in the spirit, and but
we can't confuse that as the gift of tongues. They're
they're a completely different category of spiritual activity.
(48:12):
Josh, thank you for your phone call today here on
Pastor's Perspective at 888-564-6173. Here's a question that was sent
in online. We should have answered it. I should have
read it earlier when we had the question from, uh,
I think it was Christina, uh, because it's a, it's
a similar topic, but I want to see if you
guys would give the same answer to Virginia from Broward County, Florida.
(48:34):
I agreed to throw a baby shower for a girl
from our church who is pregnant and not married.
Now I find out she's living with the guy. When
I agreed to have the baby shower for her, she
was not living with him. I feel a little bit deceived,
and I'm wondering if I am condoning her behavior by
having the baby shower for her. Dave, the behavior's already happened.
(48:58):
Here we are now, we're meant to love people where
they are, you know, and
You know, there's so much that we put upon other
people's behavior to meet our standards. When I love what
Jesus did with Zacchaeus, right? He's like, I see you, Zacchaeus.
I want to go hang out with you today. I
want to go have dinner at your house. And it
(49:19):
was after Zacheus spent time with Jesus that Zachaeus had
the transformation.
And confess I'm gonna give up my my abuse of power.
I'm gonna give back. It wasn't first, it was after
Jesus said I see you and I want to be
with and I think that's the attitude we as Christians
need to have is I wanna love people as Jesus
(49:40):
loved them and Jesus loved sinners. Jesus loved people before
they got their lives put back together. And I think
if we put on a standard on people like, well,
you have to behave a certain way, well then we're
telling people.
Jesus needs you to change on your own before you
come to Jesus, where Jesus wants to be one to
change you because of being in his presence. And I
(50:02):
think this baby shower is a beautiful picture of we
believe in the sanctity of life. We want to make
this easier on you as a as an unwed mother
to have this child and, you know, the the worst
thing could be like this family endured such hardship. They're like, it's, it's,
it's not worth it to have a child, you know.
(50:23):
And so, God bless you that you are putting on
this baby shower, and I hope your entire church rallies
around any unwed mothers in your community to say, look,
we love life, and you're bringing life into the world
and we're gonna help you love this new life. Yeah,
that compassion can lead to conversion and it so often does, yeah,
(50:43):
and I, I, I love that, and I, I would
encourage her.
To, uh, and you said it perfectly, Dave, the, the
idea that you're, you're affirming and celebrating a life that
um was saved, life that is is coming into this world.
Virginia, thank you for sending in your question. And now
let's talk to Tina in Kalamasa, California. Hi there, Tina,
(51:04):
how can we help you today?
Hi, can you guys hear me OK? Loud and clear.
OK, I'll make it quick. I had a dream about
a coworker who is not currently saved. It was things
I couldn't have possibly known about her life. I haven't
known her that long. I explained it to her. She
confirmed what I dreamt, and in the dream, um, she
(51:25):
actually was kind of rapture, but God, I heard her
say to me she was set up to be important
that she would be saved, and it kind of was
left there, and I just want to know how to
continue or start the conversation for her to get saved.
Well, what have you done so far? What have you,
how have your conversations gone?
(51:45):
Um, really well. We talked over the dream, she confirmed,
as I said.
I started preaching to her because in the dream there
was a lot of darkness and witchcraft and things like
that which she has experienced in life and I just
gave her the word that that's false, that the devil
disguises himself as an angel of light, that she is
not bound by that, that she's the daughter of Christ,
(52:07):
if she wants him to come in her life, and
that's kind of where we left off. OK, Dave, I
think that's a great place to then pick it back
up is to see, you know, hey, we had a
good conversation.
What, what questions do you have about who Jesus is?
What questions um about the opportunities that Jesus wants to
do in your life and the changes that Jesus wants
(52:28):
to make. I think you allow her to help you
guide what that conversation will be. You started it, which
is wonderful. And so I think you just allow her to,
to ask questions. And if you ask it that way,
what questions do you have, it assumes she has questions. It's,
it's not a yes or no question that she can
just shut down. It's like, no.
You know, this, I mean, I would have natural questions
(52:49):
about Jesus if I someone told me some of this stuff. What,
what are some of those natural questions you have and
just allow those questions to guide, and if she has
no questions, then I would say, hey, can I continue
praying for you? Would that be OK with you if
I prayed for you on, on, you know, and then
if she says yes, and then you can say, well,
can I pray with you, you know, for you, you know,
and see how she responds to that. But
(53:10):
I, I think you're doing the right thing by taking
the initiative and just trying to keep bringing Jesus into
your daily conversations. I would think too that if, if
Tina's friend were to say, no, I don't have any questions,
then it's time for, OK, maybe she's heard everything, maybe
she's heard all the evidence, maybe she's ready to make
a decision right then and there. Bill, what would you say? Um,
(53:32):
it sounds like the conversation's already wide open, especially on
spiritual things with a, a dream that's been interpreted and
that was.
Um, you know, there, there's 11 phrase that I'll I'll
use quite often if I feel like it's and and
and I don't just toss it out. If I believe
God has set up a a conversation with somebody or
or a, um, an encounter with someone, um, a lot
(53:53):
of times I'll say, I just really believe that that, uh,
God brought me here. It could be to a coffee shop.
I'm talking to a a man or woman behind the counter.
I think God just really brought me here today to
tell to let you know that he loves you.
And, and I would let her know that that that, um,
you know, the, the encounter that you've had with her,
you believe that God has placed you in her life
(54:14):
because he, he wants her because he loves her so
much and wants to invite her into his family and,
and just ask her if she has, has, uh, opened
up her heart to receive Jesus Christ as her Lord,
or savior, the the lover of her soul and the
leader of her life.
Amen. You're right on track, Tina. Excuse me. Tina, thank
(54:34):
you for calling in today here on Pastor's Perspective, and
we're just about out of time. Thank you everyone for
listening and for watching today. Make sure to tell your
friends about our program. They can call in with their questions.
Write down our phone number somewhere where you'll have it handy,
maybe on the inside of your Bible and uh just
tell people, hey, call this program if you have questions
about the Bible. I just wanna say, you know, I
(54:56):
get to do this once a month for biola and
this actually is one of the highlights of my month
is just to come in and
And listen to people across the country, ask questions and
gives me a shout out time to to Ava and
my family in Atlanta. This is like such a joy.
I mean, uh, just so you as listeners know, we
as people here in the in the radio station, this
is really something we enjoy talking to you about. So
(55:18):
thank you for your calls and, and thank you, Brian,
for the opportunity to represent Viola today. Yeah, for sure,
we got to have you on more often.
And you, you always tell me that you're available, and yeah,
there's just other people that we juggle in sometimes, so,
but it was great having you on today and
Um, check your email because I'll probably be sending you
some invites soon. Bill We, good to see you today, sir.
(55:39):
Good to be back with you. Uh, night of worship
tonight at Refuge starts at 6:30. Nice. Refuge Calvary Chapel
in Huntington Beach. Check it out. Refugefamily.com is that web
address and for the Adam Keane Foundation that we were
speaking about earlier, Adam Keanfoundation.com, Keane spelled K E E
H N. God bless you guys, we'll talk to you
tomorrow on Pastor's Perspective.
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez,
and it's the first day of October. I had to check,
I forgot. And uh we're here live today answering the
questions you have about the Bible, the Christian faith, anything
that's on your mind.
Give us a call, question about doctrine or theology. Uh,
(00:37):
we'd love to hear it. We're gonna be here for
an hour. 888-564-6173 is the number to call. If you're
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(00:59):
And that's where you can uh send us your question.
You can, uh, you know, type it in, it asks
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there's some space there for you to type in your question.
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(01:21):
us on the pastor's perspective Instagram. You can also mail
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a singing telegram that hasn't been done yet, but, uh,
I expect it to happen soon. Smoke signals we have
not done either. Maybe back in the early days they did. Yes,
that's an idea too. But, um, anyway, give us a call.
We'd love to hear.
From you because that's the best way to get an
(01:42):
answer to your question. The phone number is 888-564-6173. Put
it in your phone, put it on, maybe not speed dial,
but just have it in there somewhere. Write it inside
your Bible, so that you'll remember what the phone number
is so that you can call us when you've got
a question. And answering your questions today, look who's here.
(02:02):
It's Bill We from Refuge Calvary Chapel in Huntington Beach.
I almost said the senior pastor, but that's not you anymore,
is it?
I'm the double senior pastor, senior, one that's in my
senior years. I'll put it that way. Got it. OK.
So yeah, I am the whatever pastor emeritus means, I
think that's what I am. OK, still busy. I actually,
(02:24):
I think I'm busier than ever before, but with all
kinds of stuff. I'm traveling a little bit, getting ready
to do some, uh, some, uh, travel to Israel for
a pastor's conference over there with the Israeli and Arab
pastors together. Can you imagine that?
Oh actually come together and love each other. It's a
beautiful thing. And, uh, yeah, growing family, I think, uh,
(02:47):
since I was on here, um, I've, I have my
10th grandchild now, 10, yeah, little Mary May. How do
you keep track of them all? I, uh, have a wife.
It helps with that.
But if I have to quickly rattle off their names,
I got a pause on my way through the rattling
to get them all. But yeah, they're precious. All of them,
(03:09):
they're from the age of 23, almost 24 now, down
to uh, 5 months. OK, yeah, from Emmy down to
Mary May. Very nice. It's a, it's a sweet. Oh,
congratulations on number 10. All right, our guest has joined us.
Shepherd's coming up too, getting ready, it's gonna be the
busiest year I've ever done this.
(03:29):
Um, I think I already have 14 different performances of
the Shepherd of Bethlehem plan, and a lot of them
are sorry, are you starting like tomorrow or something? because
that's no, just, uh, I'm gonna start a little bit
early in November, but then, uh, December's getting packed. OK,
so yeah, it's, it's the 40th year of, uh, doing
this presentation. It's a blast. So if somebody wants to
(03:49):
invite you to come to their church to do the
Shepherd of Bethlehem play, how would they do that?
Uh, a good thing to do would be to, uh,
call at the refuge, and, um, they can call at 714-907-1177,
or they could also email me at bill at refugefamily.com.
(04:10):
Very nice. There you go. All right.
Hi Dave. Dave, this is Bill. Well, that's Dave. So, uh, Dave,
why don't you tell Bill a little bit about yourself,
and then Bill, you can tell Dave about yourself. Uh,
it's good to be here. Sorry, traffic was a little intense.
I'm a professor at By University teaching in the undergrad
(04:30):
Christian Ministries program at Talbot School of Theology. So I
was meeting with a student and that ran a little
late with traffic, so I apologize for getting here.
Yeah, so I, uh, have been in ministry for 38
years and, uh, currently working alongside all of that viola.
No, I was a youth pastor for 29 years, teaching
(04:52):
pastor for 9, and now, uh, and I've been in
Viola for 16 years full time, but, uh, the joy, uh,
I get to do is being with students and teaching
God's word at churches. The guy who preached the gospel
the night that I got saved ended up being the.
Uh, Dean of male students at Viola for about 10 years,
(05:12):
Rick Hicks, and then he went on to, uh, gosh,
he went up the mountain mountains to, um, Forest Home
for a while and then was with Operation Mobilization for
a long, long time. It's good to be back in
touch with him too. He's here in the valley with
us actually. That's good to meet you, Dave.
Very cool.
Very cool. My mic was off. Now it's on. All right,
(05:32):
so Dave, good to have you here. Thanks for coming in.
We are ready to answer some questions that you guys
might have about the Bible. So we're gonna begin with
Brittany and Antelope, who's watching us on YouTube. Hi there, Brittany,
thanks for calling in to Pastor's Perspective.
Yeah, hi. Hi there.
What's going on? How can we help you?
(05:54):
Well, my question is, if Christians are supposed to do
everything for the glory of God, how come this state
my proposition for California, you know, seems to be more
more of a political issue than an ethics issue, or
is it kind of a matter of both? And how,
(06:14):
how would a Christian best vote in this situation where
you don't really exactly know how to pick sides. OK, Dave,
what would you say?
Well, first of all, I would say, um, scripture talks
a lot about Christians.
Uh, thriving and serving in the authority of, of humans.
(06:34):
I mean, the early churches, they were
Uh, working through struggles under Nero definitely had things I
think as bad or worse than we have here in California.
And so even to them, Paul talked about, you know,
as hard as it is to believe that, yes, I know,
but I would say none of us have been impaled
on poles and lit on fire. No, not this week
because of our faith. So yes, not this week. I
(06:56):
think there's a, there's an attitude that God has for
us to say where we can submit, we submit and
we biblically get involved to create the good around us.
I don't think that means you have to be excited
about everything a candidate might support, but there are enough
values that are in alignment that I think you can
agree with particular candidates. And then if you can't agree
(07:18):
with them, then you don't vote for them. And you know,
if it's not a majority vote, you're still knowing that
I didn't vote for this and I'm doing my best
in my space of the world to create good for
God to operate on.
How do you do it when there's an issue that's
not necessarily like a moral issue, like it's not about
(07:41):
abortion or marriage or something like that, like when it
comes to, you know, redistricting the state or something, it's like, well,
that might be a, that might not be something moral, uh,
how do you navigate things like that? I think it's
kind of what Brittany was wondering about.
I think wisdom and prayer, you, you start to ask,
what are some, the implications, some of these choices that
(08:04):
we're asked to make might seem not so, um, nefarious
on the surface, but they have other applications that can
be applied to. And so I think having conversations with
other Christians and just saying, hey, how do we influence
our community for the good.
And I think a lot of things start from the
ground up. In other words, I think we try to say,
(08:24):
how do you, how do you influence your local school district, right?
Because they're the ones that are choosing curriculum. They're the
ones that are choosing policies. So if, you know, don't
think just at the, at the state level, sometimes the
way to really get involved and and do good is
to find out who's going to be in your city council,
who's going to be on, on the state, uh sorry,
on the school board.
(08:45):
And let that be where you influence for the good
of having the right values that you want to see
in your particular city and school. Yes, the only thing
that I would, uh, add alongside of that is, um, to,
to remember that there's no category in our life that
we don't want to invite, um, the Lord into. He's either, uh,
(09:06):
and it was, I think it was, um, Jay Hudson
Taylor who said, Christ is either Lord of all or
he's not Lord at all.
And so I can't think of a category in my
life where I would say I can approach that without
considering the implications of me being a follower of Jesus
and representing him here. And some of them, it's, it's
kind of a slam dunk, but when it comes to
(09:28):
the political issues, Brittany, I think it's in a really,
really important to get yourself informed.
And then get yourself involved. So study the, the, the measures,
study the propositions that are coming up and like you're saying,
the redistricting. OK, how, how does the gospel, you know,
(09:50):
you know, impact that? Well, I, I'm not sure, but
when I, I wanna get to know the candidates, I
wanna hear the arguments on both sides of it, and
I wanna read not only what they're saying.
But kind of, you know, get catch the temperature of
uh or or the gauge of where are they coming
from and do they are they still as a public servant.
Serving the public, are they serving their, their own, you know,
(10:14):
personal agenda or bias. So I, I would certainly encourage
you not to sit out the, the elections but to
be involved and, and I tell you it really is
a case every time the election comes around there's people
in the church that say show me how to fill
out my ballot. Tell me what vote yes or no
and which name and I might wanna do, I might
(10:34):
talk to them after a service and say, well, I
can tell you how I'm, I'm voting.
And if, if you're interested in that, but I don't
wanna make that the core issue. I don't want to
shy away from what's happening in our, in our culture,
and politics is a big part of what's happening in
our culture. So, I don't want to let it invade.
You know, the, uh, um, you know, the culture of
the church to the point that that's all that we're
(10:55):
known for. So, um, that was me accidentally hit the
wrong button. Um, but anyway, I hope that's helpful to you, Brittany,
make get yourself really informed and, and pray like Dave said.
And then, uh, do your civic duty. Mhm, yeah, very good.
All right, Brittany, thanks for your phone call today here
on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is our number. Here is Sophia
(11:21):
calling from Lake Forest, California, listening on FM 107.9 K wave. Hello, Sophia,
what's on your mind today?
Hi, um, so I, I'm getting married this month. Congratulations. Yeah.
Thank you so much. I'm so excited. Um, however,
I made the decision to not invite my mom, my
(11:44):
biological mom, for the reason that she's a relapsed drug
addict and
I am having a hard time, um.
I guess, uh, like I wanna make sure that I'm full.
Hold on, your phone is breaking up a little bit.
(12:07):
Your phone was breaking up a little bit. We didn't
hear that last part of your question. Do you mind
saying it again?
So, yeah, so I, I wanna make sure I'm, I'm
like following in Jesus' footsteps and doing my best to
be a righteous woman and obviously not inviting my mom is, is,
is a big decision to make and, and I don't
(12:27):
make it lightly, um, but there's been a lot of
Turmoil in our relationship to where it's just this is
just what I feel like is best for me but
then there's the other side where I'm trying to please
God and I know like I know for, for a
fact Jesus would invite her, right? Like that's I mean
(12:49):
Jesus forgives Jesus is perfect and he loves everybody and
and unfortunately I am I'm not Jesus like I.
Still feel hurt and it has nothing to do with forgiveness. I,
I've forgiven her. I understand like she's been through more
than anybody should have to go through in one lifetime
(13:12):
and so I forgive her and.
But I still don't want her there. So I just,
my question is, like, how do I know that I'm
making the right choice? Yeah. So quick question for you, Sophia,
another one. are you afraid that she's going to show
up high or something at your wedding or that something's
(13:32):
gonna happen because of her current state?
Or is it just because of issues in general?
I would say both. It's a fear. I, I guess
it's a fear of both. All right, Dave, we'll start
with you.
You know, forgiveness is one of those reconciliation tasks that
we're all called to do, but forgiveness does not always repair.
(13:57):
The consequences of people's choices. Even, you know, Sophia, as
you described her as your biological mom, it makes me,
it makes you think that you might have other women
in your life that are more of a mom to
you than if for you to describe her as your
biological mom. So I'm not 100% sure if that's how
it is, but
But the reality is there is pain, like you said,
going on here, and, and perhaps there's another way to
(14:20):
bring about to see if there could be reconciliation that
would make you comfortable to have her there that day.
I don't know if it's an issue of
Um, sin, like you had said in the question, like,
is this a sin to not invite her? I don't,
I don't think that is a sin. I would, I
would encourage you to say, if you're seeking God's best
(14:42):
and God is putting upon your heart to say, look,
there's too much pain that this has brought on. This
is not the place for us to deal with this
at a wedding with all the other pressure that you'll
have that day because it's not uh a low stress
moment for you as good and glorious as a wedding is.
Then it might be to say, hey, this is just
not the, the time or the place for us to
take that next step for us.
(15:04):
So, um, and that, that's unfortunate to the pain that, that,
you know, when
When drugs are involved, and there's a lot of addiction
that takes place and a lot of pain that comes
in involved for families that have had to deal with,
with those who have been addicted. And so that you,
I hear in your heart an an act of mercy
that you want to extend to your, to your biological mom,
(15:24):
but also trying to think through then what is best
for this particular moment. And so I don't think you
need to put this in the category of a sin.
I don't think you need to say, well, Jesus would
have done this, so I must too. I think you
need to to to rightly understand the
The journey of recovery that your mom, your biological mom's
been on, but also the journey of recovery that you've
been on in the healing of this relationship and and
(15:47):
say this, this might not be appropriate for where this
relationship is right now. Bill, um, and a couple of
questions for you, Sophia. Um, when, when is your wedding?
How far away is it?
October October 31st. All right, on the way in the
other end of the month. That's my son-in-law's birthday. Nice.
Happy birthday, Pastor Jeff, but um, um, how does your
(16:10):
future husband feel about not inviting your mom?
He's fully supportive, um, and
Yeah, I do say biological mom, like I do have
a lot of other women I look up to, but
there was a time when my mom and I were very,
very close, um, so it's like recent that this has been,
I wouldn't say recent, it's been a few years that
(16:30):
this has been going on, but it's not the first time. Um,
but anyways, he's, he's supportive and he agrees that having
her Oh, there's that phone phasing thing again. He agrees, what?
He agrees that it would not be the most comfortable
situation for us or for a lot of the guests, like,
(16:53):
you know, her family. Got it. And is your mom
aware of of the fact that you're wrestling with this
decision right now? You think she'd be surprised if she
wasn't invited? Does she even know you're getting married? If
she's listening on the radio right now, she's gonna say, oh,
now I know the date. I just need to figure
out where it is.
Yeah, right. She does know I have to break it
(17:17):
to her.
Like last week actually, um, but she does know, and
I mean, I'm not sure if she knows that I'm
like wrestling. I wouldn't say I'm wrestling with the decision,
like the the decision has been made. I'm just more
wrestling with the guilt that comes with it. Uh, OK. Yeah, and,
and I would, I, I guess I would not to
(17:38):
throw more weight on you, Sophia, but, uh, the regret
that might be down the road for you, and yeah,
I mean it could certainly be a a step towards healing.
Um, if she were invited, but, uh, I, I would
not impose my will on that, you know, from the
distance of, you know, just talking over the, over the
(17:58):
phone or over the radio on this, but, um, I,
I wonder if there's a way that you can have
a conversation with your mom about that so that it
becomes a a blessing to both of you and and
to your family, but um.
I would, would love to be, would love to pray
for you on that. Can we do that? Oh, sure, sure,
sure before we pray. Sophia, you were talking about guilt.
(18:19):
I don't know if what I would say is what
you're feeling is guilt. Maybe it's grief. Maybe you're sad
about the loss of having your mother there because you
recognize it's not the right moment for your relationship, and that's,
that's something to grieve because there's something that won't be
as you were hoping it would be.
(18:39):
And so sometimes we call things guilt when it really
is just uh uh recognizing of a natural emotion of
sadness or what is, you know, if, if things are
not where things should be with you and your mom.
Then, then that's what, that's what you're grieving and it's
not necessarily the guilt of denying her that access. That's
a really good point because what daughter doesn't want her
(19:02):
mom to be in in the wedding and everything. So yeah,
that could be, that could very well be. Yeah, I've
I've I've told, I've told her that like literally those
exact words I told her like I want nothing more
than to have you there. I just
I want you there as a different version, which, you know,
which is, yeah, I guess, and that definitely resonates a
lot more I guess it is a it's definitely feels
(19:24):
more like grief, but. Yeah. And you know, a lot
can happen in 30 days. A whole lot can happen
in a relationship in in 30 days with conversation and
expectations and all of that, and, and I, and I'm,
I'm not suggesting that you do this next thing.
I'm gonna tell you, but when my wife Joy and
I got married 52 years, uh, 4 months and 28
(19:49):
days ago, 29 days ago now.
Um, can you do that, Dave? I'm pretty sure I'm
right on this, but I could be off by a
day or two. we were, we were in Long Beach, and, um,
I remember inviting strangers on the street to our wedding.
People that we, we met in the coffee house that
we were working in a little Christian coffee house down in,
(20:10):
in Long Beach, uh back in the 70s and um
I just, I wanted the, uh, I wanted anybody that
wanted to come to our wedding to come to our
wedding and uh and a couple of them did, and
we had a couple of guys from the coffee house
that we were part of that were really wrestling with
sobriety and they showed up and uh it was a,
it was a blessing to have them there and they
(20:32):
behaved which was wonderful. I knew it was a bit
volatile but.
Um, and I'm not trying to make, uh, make light
of this at all, Sophia. Um, I, I, I can
feel the weight that you're carrying on that, so, um,
let's pray for you.
Father, I thank you for Sophia, and I, I, uh, I,
I just thank you, Father, for the blessing that you're
giving her and her husband at the end of this
(20:54):
month to become one and to serve you together as
a husband and wife, and I pray that you would
just give her wisdom. I pray for healing between her
and her mom as well, Father, and I pray for her,
her mother to just uh to to make some steps
towards um towards a a new version of herself and.
And finding peace that she needs to find, Father, so
(21:15):
just pray that you'd give, uh, just simple wisdom to
Sophia on this and her husband, and pray that your
blessing would be over that day at the end of
this month in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Amen. Thank you, Sophia,
for calling in today to Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is our number.
Let's go to Glendora now. Here is Mike. Hey, Mike,
(21:36):
thanks for calling in today. What's your question?
Well, thank you. I listen to you guys every day
and when I heard that Bill was on today, I
just wanted to say hi to him, but I do
have a question. Bill, Mike Antoni. Oh, Mike, yes, great
to hear your voice, brother.
Man, I see all your posts on Facebook and it's
so great to see an old guy doing something good.
(21:58):
Oh no, do you see all of them?
Oh, I'm sorry.
No, it's all good. But listen, I, um, I've, uh,
Been attending a church here in Glendora for the last
3 years or so and love it dearly, uh, starting
to get reinvolved in, uh, just ministry light, if you will,
(22:18):
just get, I've been kind of, uh, I've been working
in the, in the, uh,
Outside of the ministry field for a while. And I
love it and, and gonna be attending it, continuing. They
take a reform position, um, and I'm wondering how that's
going to factor in.
(22:38):
To my being there and my getting more further involved,
what I, what should I be looking for now, because
you know Bill, I assume you've got a like a
Calvary Chapel background and so you're wondering, is this, yeah,
I was on staff at Calvary Chapel Westgrove for 12 years.
I think as, as actually Bill, I think started moved
(22:59):
into ref refuge, uh, Huntington, uh, while I was there, so.
What do you say to him, I've been I've I
just know what to uh.
You know, I have, uh, I've had the, the real
honor over the, the 55 years, almost 55 years that
(23:19):
I've been a, a Christian to serve in a lot
of different, uh, theological contexts with, uh, the Quaker Church
up in, uh, their camping program up in the mountains
and a couple of their churches around Long Beach and, and, um,
and when Pentecostal churches as well and uh.
An Anglican church that sponsored us into Australia, many, many
(23:41):
different uh congregations, but I, I've never been in a
position where coming in as a Calvary Chapel uh pastor
who basically we, we have what I think what what
I would call Pentecostal light theology and um but I
I've I've never um been involved in a in a reform.
Um, congregation. I've, I've known a lot of reformed people.
(24:04):
I've gone in and ministered in churches like that, but
I've never been a part of a staff or, um, in,
in the, in the steady, you know, week to week ministry. I,
I think you might find uh a a bit of challenge,
but I would wanna sit down and talk with uh
whoever is or are they asking you to pastor the church, Mike?
Or be the the regular teacher or no, OK. Yeah, no, no,
(24:29):
it's at this point in time, it's a group leading
position and other support things in the men's ministry just being, uh,
that tights two guy. But no, no official position of
leadership within the church, am I even seeking at this point.
Well well staffed, they're such a wonderful church. Yeah, I,
I would say depending on, on how intense they might
(24:50):
be about their theological grid.
That they believe in, you could be having some really
robust conversations, and that would be that that would, you know,
cause growth for everybody I would hope, but I wouldn't
see any reason not to serve God's people there if
there's a slot for you, Dave.
It sounds like the community that you're a part of
you are enjoying the spiritual fellowship and that's significant because, um,
(25:16):
finding people that you can love and be loved by
finding a church that is preaching the Bible and really
focusing on the gospel of Christ, I think are the
central factors. Um, some of the reform application seems to
be more secondary issues usually, not primary to the gospel.
And so that's where I would
(25:36):
Have conversations, you know, um, that's what we do at Biola.
I mean, biola is a very evangelical conservative, uh, theological perspective,
but even in our Bible classes, we, we do bring
up scriptures and how those same scriptures are interpreted by
other people from other viewpoints, because the more that we
can have conversation about God's word, the deeper our understanding
of God's word is. And so I think there's nothing
(25:59):
but to be gained if, if you're enjoying the community,
if you feel like they're teaching God's word.
Then on some of these secondary theological issues, let's just
have conversation and find ways that we can find agreement
and then where we can't, maybe it's not really that
big of a deal to have that kind of diversity
because there's people who love Jesus sincerely and perhaps on
both sides of that question. Yeah, for sure. Mike, what
(26:21):
do you think?
I think that's awesome, and, and you did, uh, confirm.
What, where I was heading, uh, where I was hoping
to be too, they are an amazing church that exhibits
community and all that they do and teaches intelligently through
the word of God and in an expositorial way. They
(26:43):
check all the, the, uh, the, the boxes, including the, um,
Including the worship piece. So, yeah, it's amazing. And, and
I just want to be a part of it and be,
you know, be helpful. And I don't want to,
You know, uh, uncircumstantial things, uh, or small differences that
(27:04):
are not, uh,
To get in the way of what God's doing. So, so, Mike, what,
what's the name of this amazing church? Because the way
you describe it, there might be people who live in
the Glendora area who might be thinking, you know what,
maybe I can get plugged into something like that.
Yeah, thanks. It's Foothill Church. It's in Glendora on, um,
(27:24):
baseline and Grand. And, uh, we're there, we're celebrating 85 years, uh,
this weekend actually in a big celebration. It just so happens. I, I,
I've been there for 3 years and it's just really a, uh, uh,
a blessing and I've been a Calvary guy since, you know, 70.
My daughter was born in, uh,
(27:47):
82. So I've been a Calvary guy since '82. It
almost sounds like the beginning of a joke. A Calvary
guy walks into a reformed church, and no, I don't know. Anyway,
all right, great, Mike, thank you for calling in today
from Glendora here on Pastor's Perspective. It was predestined.
That he would walk in there for sure, I guess so, yes,
and that he would call in today at 888-564-6173. Got
(28:10):
some more calls coming up, but we've also got a
break coming up, so I think I'll wait until after
the break to take another call. This is Pastor's Perspective.
We're here Monday through Friday from 3 to 4 in
the afternoon, and we answer the questions you call in
with about the Bible, the Christian faith, finding a church, etc.
Give us a call 888-564-6173. We've got
(28:31):
Bill Welsh, pastor emeritus at Refuge Calvary Chapel in Huntington Beach.
You hear Bill here on the radio Monday through Friday
at 4:30 a.m. or PM? Both, actually. Funny how that
worked out, huh? Just like Pastor's perspective is on Monday
through Friday at 3 o'clock. AM or PM? Both, actually. And, uh,
you didn't know. 3 a.m. wake up. We play the, uh,
(28:53):
so like today's program will air tomorrow at 3 in
the morning. I'll set my alarm. Yes.
Dave Keene is here too. He's a professor and chair
of Christian ministries at the Talbot School of Theology at
Biola University, Biola.edu is how you can find out more
about Biola and about Dave. So, are we ready to,
(29:14):
ready for another round, guys? Yeah. OK. I just noticed
you guys are wearing almost matching shirts. How about that?
That's right. You called each other, yes. Well, I didn't
get that memo. Thanks for not calling me. No, I'm,
I'm offended. No. Anyway.
Uh, if you're watching on Facebook, YouTube or Instagram, what
do you think? Matching shirts, pretty nice, huh? 888-564-6173, we
shall return momentarily.
(30:19):
Alright, we're back on Pastor's Perspective. Thanks so much for
listening and for watching on Facebook, YouTube or Instagram. My name,
maybe you're watching on all three at the same time.
That would be interesting. But, uh, my name is Brian
Perez here with Bill We, the pastor emeritus of Refuge
Calvary Chapel in Huntington Beach.
And Dave Keene, he's a professor at the Talbot School
of Theology at Biola University, and we were just talking
(30:42):
off the air for a few minutes about the foundation
that you've set up for your son, Adam. Tell us
about that in case people are tuning in for the
first time and haven't heard your story before. Yeah, so, uh,
I have an amazing family. My daughter and her family
live in Atlanta. They're listening right now on on YouTube.
So Eva, love you. You're probably getting ready for bed.
But, uh, our oldest son, Adam, uh, passed away 3
(31:05):
years ago, suddenly from a brain aneurysm. Adam was 24
at the time and a youth pastor in Glendora. And
as part of our response to grief, we wanted to
keep his legacy for the gospel going. Adam was so
passionate in how he served the church and shared the
gospel students. And so we have started a foundation that
comes alongside.
Young youth pastors who are in their first vocational foray
(31:27):
in the ministry, and we, we coach them up because
there are a lot of challenges that pastors experience when
they're right out of seminary or right out of Bible
College that they didn't expect. And so we have veteran
youth leaders and ministry leaders that come alongside these coach,
these young guys for free. We coach them up and
then we actually give them some financial resources to build
into their ministry to help them really take a next
(31:49):
sustainable step for the gospel in their community. And it's
been
Amazing to coach. Um, this is our 2nd year of
coaching right now we're coaching 15 youth pastors across the
United States and Canada, and, uh, we have seen such
a need. We've had so many more applicants for our
coaching grant than we had the resources to give. And so, um,
(32:10):
but as God is continuing to give us more resources,
we're actually looking to start another cohort soon here so
you can look at the Adam Keanfoundation.com, and you could
go on to get involved and apply for one of
our coaching grants.
And, uh, we'll start that in January. You can also
gift a new youth pastor starter kit to any youth
pastor in the United States that you know of. We'll
(32:30):
send it free of charge to anyone that you tell
us as a young youth pastor and could use some resources.
We have books and digital downloads that we've been given
that we, we share with, uh, with just the community.
So we love to
See what God's doing to build up the church because
these young ministry leaders, both men and women, are the
next leaders of the church. They're gonna take over when
(32:51):
Bill and I are retired someday. Yes. So find out
more about the Adam Keane Foundation at Adam Keanefoundation.com. Keane
is spelled K E E H N, Adam Keanefoundation.com.
All right, more phone calls now. 888-564-6173. Christina in Richmond, Virginia,
(33:12):
listening on the Kwave app. Welcome to Pastor's perspective, Christina.
Thank you very much. Yeah, what's going on? How can
we help you? Yeah, my uh granddaughter just called and
we were talking, I was telling her about the 5:25
I've set up and she said, oh, that won't be
(33:35):
necessary because since mom's gonna be moving there uh to Minnesota,
I'm going to get free tuition.
So I really don't need, you know, help with that,
but I do need help with my rent. Uh, whereupon
I asked her, are you still living with, uh, your boyfriend?
(33:59):
And she said, yes. And I said, well, then I'm,
I'm sorry, I can't do it. I'll be happy to
pay for your books, though.
You know, and um, she, she knows that it's against
my lifestyle um my choice of lifestyle, you know, with
being a Christian and um
(34:20):
Um, so she's, she's upset and wants to talk about
it more. Hm, OK, well, that's, I would say that's
a good thing. She didn't just slam the phone down
or anything, which nowadays you can't really slam a phone
down cause they're all cell phones. If you slam your
phone down, it'll break. It's not like the good old
days when we could slam a phone down. Anyway, I digress. Dave,
what would you say to Christina?
(34:41):
Sounds like the money you had for your granddaughter was
actually in this 525 account, correct? Like it's actually in
a mutual fund? No, no, actually, um, I paid, I
paid for a partial uh last year without, without, she
didn't tell me about the um
(35:04):
Uh, whether you, you know, the money she got for
good grades and things like that. So I gave her, um,
17,500 towards school straight out, and this time I wanted
to make sure whatever I
I gave her was, you know, according to what she
(35:26):
really needed.
Because she does live a different lifestyle than what I
Then what is, you know, the Lord would want. And
I mean, but I do want to support her too.
I mean, even if it means giving her um
Uh, grocery cards or something like that.
(35:49):
So essentially what you're, you're saying to her is, you
pay your rent.
And I'll pay other other bills for you.
Is that correct? So you're, cause, cause the rent is
directly related to her living situation and that's where you
wanna draw the line? Draw the line, yes. Well, even
if you feel comfortable with that. If you give her
(36:09):
money to buy groceries, I mean, she might make a
sandwich for her boyfriend or something with them. That's true. I, I,
I think this is a great conversation to, to say, OK,
I love you and because you're my granddaughter.
I'm gonna give you something. It may not be what
you would have given her for her schooling. You're not
gonna give her all, all that money, but you're saying, hey,
(36:30):
I'll help you with a gift and how you want
to use this gift is, is, is your call. If
you want to put it towards rent, you put it
towards rent. If you wanna, because what you're, you're not
trying to
You've already made it known to her, you don't approve of,
of this lifestyle choice. She doesn't need to, you know, have. No.
You don't want her to make the change just for money, right?
(36:51):
You want Christ to change her heart. And so I
think to keep that relationship and that conversation going is
where you say, I love you, I'm going to give
you something to help and you decide what that is
between you and and and God and then
You're saying, you know, I, I wanna, I wanna, I,
I love you. I wanna keep supporting you, and I want,
you know, you to see what God has for you. That's,
(37:12):
that's so good and so, so right. Yeah. Bill, any
thoughts from you? Um, I would say do the, do
all the good you can for your, for your granddaughter, and,
and bless her. How many times does God has God
blessed us when we didn't deserve it. He fed us
long before we were even interested in him and walking
with him, so.
(37:32):
Um, bless as much as you can, and that that
blessing might soften the heart and, and change the trajectory
of their lives.
OK. I would, I would agree with that.
All right. What do you think, Christina? Right.
Uh, I'm totally open to doing that. All right. You know,
(37:53):
I love her very much and I want her to
be able to succeed, and I know, um, you know,
she's gonna go into medical school, but because of some
health problems, she can't do that now. Um, so of course,
but I would help her health wise, but she, her
mom's already got that covered with good insurance.
(38:15):
For which she's under, so I don't have to worry
about that. They've. Yeah. Yeah, I just say, I think
you just keep expressing love and, and you, and you
love regardless, and you try to help someone in their
tangible need because
As you get them through that that crisis, they may
have now other opportunities to think more deeply about their
(38:36):
life choices and where they're headed. And so,
You know, how do we, how do we do that?
She already knows where you stand. She doesn't need the
money to con to confirm that. Yeah. Christina, thanks for
your phone call today here on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is
the number to call. We're gonna be here for about
1520 more minutes, so call in 888-564-6173. Josh and San
(39:01):
Diego listening on the Kwave app. Hello, Josh, thank you
for downloading the app and thank you for calling in today.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Afternoon, gentlemen. Uh, real quick, just want to say whoever
you guys have answering the phones, they're always such a pleasure,
they're kind, um, and they actually seem really excited when,
when we call in and give our names and ask
our questions. So great production team on the back end. Um,
Speaker 1 (39:25):
Hats off to Lin Hackman.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Lynn Hackman, you, you put a smile on my face today, Lynn. Um, so,
I was in church on Sunday, a guest speaker was
there and he was talking about the, uh, the lightning
rod topic of speaking in tongues, and was talking about
a time that he was speaking in tongues, and he
told the congregation that he, he ran out of words
(39:48):
to say and let the spirit take over. And there
was the implication that it, it kind of became a
spiritual language or almost gibberish. And I thought that was
kind of interesting. So I dove into Acts last night.
And noticed that when the apostles were given the gift
of speaking in tongues, that the, they actually lapsed into
(40:09):
discernible known languages at the time. There was the people outside,
and everyone said, there's, you know, and I started underlining
and like, OK, that was a language at the time,
a known language at the time. And I guess my
question is this, um,
Is speaking in tongues, does one speak in another language,
or is it a spiritual language? The only time I
(40:32):
have ever experienced this was somebody who was speaking over
where they were praying over me, and then they started
speaking and I didn't understand a single word they said
and it went on for about 3 or 4 minutes
and I'm curious to know.
Theologically, is speaking in tongues a known discernible language for
(40:54):
which there is somebody there to interpret, or is it
more so a spiritual language, or is it both? Help
me rectify what I heard Sunday with what's in Acts,
if possible.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
All right, Dave Keene. Yeah, so I think we have
two different activities happening here. One is the spiritual gift
of tongues, which is speaking in a different known language,
when
Peter was having the moment of Pentecost and the apostles
and other Christians were speaking different languages. There was a
purpose for that. It wasn't just sensation, it was people
(41:28):
of different countries hearing the gospel, hearing truth from God
spoken in their language. That's why when Paul writes about
if there's gonna be the gift of tongues in a service,
worship service, there needs to be the gift of interpretation,
so that this is not just gibberish, this is not
just
You know, sensation, but there actually is a message from
(41:49):
God to a group of people. Now, what is taking
place oftentimes in churches with when there's, it's in the
act of prayer, it really is what's going on in
in Romans chapter 8. When, when Romans chapter 8, it
does talk about in, in, um,
That when we don't know what to pray, God gives
us the words to pray, and that's in verse 26
(42:13):
and uh and 27. And the idea there is, it's
not gibberish, it's God kind of filling in the gap
of where our brain doesn't know how to verbalize what
God's intention is and so God in that moment is speaking.
Some people will speak that out loud.
But it doesn't have to be out loud. In other words,
(42:34):
God is always interceding. His spirit is interceding with me,
but it doesn't have to be a spoken.
You know, prayer, it could just be simply God, as
I in my silence is filling the gap between myself
and and God through the Holy Spirit. And so you
have two different things. One is the gift of the
spiritual gift of tongues, which has to have interpretation. The
(42:56):
other is this spirit intercession that we would often refer
to in a prayer language moment, that is not meant
to be.
Really spoken necessarily because it's between us and God. It's
not really meant for the community's benefit. Yeah, yeah, I,
I will give you some homework. Read 1 Corinthians 12
(43:16):
through 14, and right in the middle of it. I
love the way that Paul put love right in the
middle of this, uh, three chapter conversation with the, uh,
or epistle.
Um, that, that he wrote to the Corinthians about, you know, the,
the use and the abuse, sometimes the misuse of spiritual gifts,
and he's campaigning for order in the church and, um,
(43:40):
and not giving yourself to something that's gonna make it
very easy for visitors who came into the gathering, maybe unbelievers,
they came into the gathering and and they're exposed to
something that what in the world was that all about?
But um.
Where the the what's the passage where Paul said, I
will pray with the spirit and I'll pray with the
(44:00):
understanding as well, um, and they're time and I, I,
I guess you'd say I speak in tongues a lot,
but I, I've never done it publicly. I've never, you know,
blasted out in a in a public utterance because it's
those times when I get to the end of what
I can say to God in my um in the
only language I know which is English, and I don't
know that very well.
(44:22):
Um, but I want to get to the end of
what I can communicate to God and what I'm feeling and, and,
and have you ever come to that, that place, Josh,
where it's like, oh, there's more burden in my heart, and,
and I want to go on and praying for that person.
I don't know what to say and
And I, I love the fact that in I think
it's in.
In Romans, where he says the the spirit helps us
(44:42):
with groanings, it can't be which means translated, right? Yeah, well,
that's that's Ros it's 8:26 and 27 yeah, yeah. And
so he says the spirit goes to work on something
that I know I'm communicating my heart to God as
I'm as I've got this person sort of, you know, uh,
I was gonna use the wrong term there. I've got
this person in on target.
(45:03):
And I know that they're going through an excruciating time
or whatever, and I get to the end of what
I can express in the language that I know, and
just usually know louder than a whisper unless I'm alone somewhere,
I'll just begin to continue to to speak in in
a language that I have never learned that I would
(45:24):
call some people would call it their prayer language or
whatever that is, but there's mystery behind it, and and
I've got to tell you this is one of those
points where I, I call in.
A couple of my absolute favorite verses of all times, and,
and one of them is uh is David in um Psalm, um,
is it 33, uh maybe maybe it's it's 32. I,
(45:48):
I did look it up and then I lost it. Oh,
it's 31. He says, Lord, my heart is not haughty
or arrogant, nor my eyes lofty, neither do I concern
myself with great matters, nor with things too profound for me.
I've calmed and quieted my heart.
Uh, David said, I come to the place where there's
things going on, um, in my life that are mysterious,
(46:08):
and he said, I'm not gonna let that, um, bother me.
I'm not gonna let it knock me down and in
Deuteronomy 29:29, it says there are secret things that belong
to the Lord.
But those things which are revealed belong to us and
to our children forever, that we may do all the
words of this law. So all of that to say,
I think when it comes to this discussion about the
the the gift of spiritual language or um speaking in tongues,
(46:33):
praying in tongues.
I'll pray with the with the understanding or or I'll
I'll pray with the spirit that I've got lots of
room for that to exist, but not to the point
where it creates a circus in a gathering of God's people, and,
and I think with good leadership in a church like that,
it takes some instruction to get people on the same
(46:55):
page of understanding. So I don't know, did did did
I over answer that, Josh?
Speaker 2 (47:01):
No, and, and, and I think that the verse you
brought up in regards to the spirit intercedes on our
behalf of groans and utterances. And that's what I was
thinking about. But are those groans and utterances with which
the spirit intercedes, are, are we aware of those? And
it sounds like what you're saying.
Is that those groans and utterances can make their way
(47:23):
into and become our prayer life. Am I understanding you
correctly
Speaker 1 (47:28):
there? Yeah, it's it's an element in the sense that
you don't know what more to pray, but you know
something is there that God is putting in your heart.
And sometimes for myself, that's more silently done as I
sit there and prayer in silence, but for other people
they allow.
That, um, rumbling to come up and out and verbalize
(47:50):
it and it's just more of their, their way of
identifying God is speaking here, not me in this intersession
in prayer, and they'll they'll literally use that passage from
Romans 8:26 of, I'm groaning in the spirit, and but
we can't confuse that as the gift of tongues. They're
they're a completely different category of spiritual activity.
(48:12):
Josh, thank you for your phone call today here on
Pastor's Perspective at 888-564-6173. Here's a question that was sent
in online. We should have answered it. I should have
read it earlier when we had the question from, uh,
I think it was Christina, uh, because it's a, it's
a similar topic, but I want to see if you
guys would give the same answer to Virginia from Broward County, Florida.
(48:34):
I agreed to throw a baby shower for a girl
from our church who is pregnant and not married.
Now I find out she's living with the guy. When
I agreed to have the baby shower for her, she
was not living with him. I feel a little bit deceived,
and I'm wondering if I am condoning her behavior by
having the baby shower for her. Dave, the behavior's already happened.
(48:58):
Here we are now, we're meant to love people where
they are, you know, and
You know, there's so much that we put upon other
people's behavior to meet our standards. When I love what
Jesus did with Zacchaeus, right? He's like, I see you, Zacchaeus.
I want to go hang out with you today. I
want to go have dinner at your house. And it
(49:19):
was after Zacheus spent time with Jesus that Zachaeus had
the transformation.
And confess I'm gonna give up my my abuse of power.
I'm gonna give back. It wasn't first, it was after
Jesus said I see you and I want to be
with and I think that's the attitude we as Christians
need to have is I wanna love people as Jesus
(49:40):
loved them and Jesus loved sinners. Jesus loved people before
they got their lives put back together. And I think
if we put on a standard on people like, well,
you have to behave a certain way, well then we're
telling people.
Jesus needs you to change on your own before you
come to Jesus, where Jesus wants to be one to
change you because of being in his presence. And I
(50:02):
think this baby shower is a beautiful picture of we
believe in the sanctity of life. We want to make
this easier on you as a as an unwed mother
to have this child and, you know, the the worst
thing could be like this family endured such hardship. They're like, it's, it's,
it's not worth it to have a child, you know.
(50:23):
And so, God bless you that you are putting on
this baby shower, and I hope your entire church rallies
around any unwed mothers in your community to say, look,
we love life, and you're bringing life into the world
and we're gonna help you love this new life. Yeah,
that compassion can lead to conversion and it so often does, yeah,
(50:43):
and I, I, I love that, and I, I would
encourage her.
To, uh, and you said it perfectly, Dave, the, the
idea that you're, you're affirming and celebrating a life that
um was saved, life that is is coming into this world.
Virginia, thank you for sending in your question. And now
let's talk to Tina in Kalamasa, California. Hi there, Tina,
(51:04):
how can we help you today?
Hi, can you guys hear me OK? Loud and clear.
OK, I'll make it quick. I had a dream about
a coworker who is not currently saved. It was things
I couldn't have possibly known about her life. I haven't
known her that long. I explained it to her. She
confirmed what I dreamt, and in the dream, um, she
(51:25):
actually was kind of rapture, but God, I heard her
say to me she was set up to be important
that she would be saved, and it kind of was
left there, and I just want to know how to
continue or start the conversation for her to get saved.
Well, what have you done so far? What have you,
how have your conversations gone?
(51:45):
Um, really well. We talked over the dream, she confirmed,
as I said.
I started preaching to her because in the dream there
was a lot of darkness and witchcraft and things like
that which she has experienced in life and I just
gave her the word that that's false, that the devil
disguises himself as an angel of light, that she is
not bound by that, that she's the daughter of Christ,
(52:07):
if she wants him to come in her life, and
that's kind of where we left off. OK, Dave, I
think that's a great place to then pick it back
up is to see, you know, hey, we had a
good conversation.
What, what questions do you have about who Jesus is?
What questions um about the opportunities that Jesus wants to
do in your life and the changes that Jesus wants
(52:28):
to make. I think you allow her to help you
guide what that conversation will be. You started it, which
is wonderful. And so I think you just allow her to,
to ask questions. And if you ask it that way,
what questions do you have, it assumes she has questions. It's,
it's not a yes or no question that she can
just shut down. It's like, no.
You know, this, I mean, I would have natural questions
(52:49):
about Jesus if I someone told me some of this stuff. What,
what are some of those natural questions you have and
just allow those questions to guide, and if she has
no questions, then I would say, hey, can I continue
praying for you? Would that be OK with you if
I prayed for you on, on, you know, and then
if she says yes, and then you can say, well,
can I pray with you, you know, for you, you know,
and see how she responds to that. But
(53:10):
I, I think you're doing the right thing by taking
the initiative and just trying to keep bringing Jesus into
your daily conversations. I would think too that if, if
Tina's friend were to say, no, I don't have any questions,
then it's time for, OK, maybe she's heard everything, maybe
she's heard all the evidence, maybe she's ready to make
a decision right then and there. Bill, what would you say? Um,
(53:32):
it sounds like the conversation's already wide open, especially on
spiritual things with a, a dream that's been interpreted and
that was.
Um, you know, there, there's 11 phrase that I'll I'll
use quite often if I feel like it's and and
and I don't just toss it out. If I believe
God has set up a a conversation with somebody or
or a, um, an encounter with someone, um, a lot
(53:53):
of times I'll say, I just really believe that that, uh,
God brought me here. It could be to a coffee shop.
I'm talking to a a man or woman behind the counter.
I think God just really brought me here today to
tell to let you know that he loves you.
And, and I would let her know that that that, um,
you know, the, the encounter that you've had with her,
you believe that God has placed you in her life
(54:14):
because he, he wants her because he loves her so
much and wants to invite her into his family and,
and just ask her if she has, has, uh, opened
up her heart to receive Jesus Christ as her Lord,
or savior, the the lover of her soul and the
leader of her life.
Amen. You're right on track, Tina. Excuse me. Tina, thank
(54:34):
you for calling in today here on Pastor's Perspective, and
we're just about out of time. Thank you everyone for
listening and for watching today. Make sure to tell your
friends about our program. They can call in with their questions.
Write down our phone number somewhere where you'll have it handy,
maybe on the inside of your Bible and uh just
tell people, hey, call this program if you have questions
about the Bible. I just wanna say, you know, I
(54:56):
get to do this once a month for biola and
this actually is one of the highlights of my month
is just to come in and
And listen to people across the country, ask questions and
gives me a shout out time to to Ava and
my family in Atlanta. This is like such a joy.
I mean, uh, just so you as listeners know, we
as people here in the in the radio station, this
is really something we enjoy talking to you about. So
(55:18):
thank you for your calls and, and thank you, Brian,
for the opportunity to represent Viola today. Yeah, for sure,
we got to have you on more often.
And you, you always tell me that you're available, and yeah,
there's just other people that we juggle in sometimes, so,
but it was great having you on today and
Um, check your email because I'll probably be sending you
some invites soon. Bill We, good to see you today, sir.
(55:39):
Good to be back with you. Uh, night of worship
tonight at Refuge starts at 6:30. Nice. Refuge Calvary Chapel
in Huntington Beach. Check it out. Refugefamily.com is that web
address and for the Adam Keane Foundation that we were
speaking about earlier, Adam Keanfoundation.com, Keane spelled K E E
H N. God bless you guys, we'll talk to you
tomorrow on Pastor's Perspective.
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