October 8, 2025 • 56 mins
Pastors' Perspective is a one-hour call-in program where listeners can call in and get answers to questions about the Bible, Christianity, family, and life. The program is live Monday through Friday from 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM Pacific. You can call 888-564-6173 to ask your questions.
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. My name is Michael
David in for Brian Perez. The number to call is
888-564-6173 to get the answers to your questions on the Bible,
the Christian faith, and how to live the Christian life.
On today's program we have Pastor Brian Broderson, Pastor Emeritus
at Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa. You can get more information
(00:37):
about his ministry at echoesofMercy.com.
And also Phil Metzger from Calvary Chapel, San Diego, where
he is pastor, and you can get more details about
him and his church at CalvarySD.com. So welcome to the program,
Pastor Brian and Pastor Phil. Well, thank you, Michael David.
(00:58):
It's great to be on the program with you today.
And it's great to be with Phil too, but I
don't know if Phil can see us or hear
us.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
I can. I can see you. I can hear you.
Can you hear
me?
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Yeah, I can hear you and I can hear you,
but you can't see my screen, can you? No,
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I can't. I can't see the teams yet, but I
can see you guys. I can see your lovely face
and Brian Broderson we're like matchy matchy today.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
And I was commenting, I don't think you heard me, Phil,
I was commenting on how nice your hair looks in
contrast to my hair, which looks completely crazy. Well, I
heard
Speaker 2 (01:32):
so I, I only caught the part where you said,
I need to get my daughter to get me a haircut.
So I could only assume I didn't hear the compliment,
but I definitely heard the part.
I don't think your hair looks crazy, and you've been, um,
out of country for a while, so you have every
excuse
in the world.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
I've been traipsing through the jungles of El Salvador. Wow,
what was that and the cities as well. It
Speaker 2 (01:53):
looked amazing.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Uh, it was so good. I love it. I've been
to El Salvador many times, so this was actually my
2nd time this year to be down and
We have some, you know, great friends, some really amazing churches,
and yeah, so did some conferences and spoke at a
bunch of churches and and all of that. And Phil,
every time I'm in that part of the world, I'm thinking,
(02:16):
all right, Phil, we gotta get down here together and
I was with Dave Eason and of course you grew
up with Dave's son.
So we were talking about you and come on I
know you're ready to go and of course we're going to,
we're going to Peru together in February.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yes, we are. I'm excited for that. I can't wait.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
So good. Yeah, you know, the Lord's doing some really
great stuff in in that whole world, I think whether
it's Mexico or the Central American countries or South American
countries are so many great, great opportunities for the gospel.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
I love it. No, I'm so excited. This will be
my first time to South America with you guys. I
can't wait. I'm super excited. It's gonna
Speaker 1 (02:59):
be great. But since we saw each other, you went
to Portugal.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I did. I just got back last week and I
had an amazing, so we're this year is our 30th anniversary, um,
me and Joy, so we're kind of, uh, yeah, we're
kind of like when we can get away, we're just
doing it and we did it was so dude, Portugal
you guys.
5 stars, it's amazing, unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
I've heard that from everyone.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Dude, unbelievable, and we have some great churches there, some
great Calvary churches that I got to visit and um
and then we got to go to Madrid and visit
our missionaries there too, some great works going on and
but boy oh boy, Portugal, you and Cheryl need to
go to Portugal. You really do.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah, there's a couple there that have like this um.
Uh, you know, they have a house where they like
to have people come and just stay, and so they
keep inviting us, you know, we've, we've got the room,
we're waiting for you to come, and so we say, well, OK,
you know, maybe, maybe one of these days we'll get there,
so we'll see. Yeah. And Pastor Brian, you also have
(04:06):
something going on tonight called The Gathering. What is that? Well,
the gathering is, uh, it's
I guess I guess the best way to describe it, it's,
it's a little bit of a um.
Like
It's a classroom environment with a variety of different topics.
I think we have 9 or 10 different topics. We
do this 3 times a year, and 3 times a
(04:28):
year for 6 weeks, we jump into
Uh, different topics, different teachers, and it's an opportunity for
people to really drill down into a specific topic of
interest and to be in more of a classroom setting,
a smaller kind of a context where you're gonna get
(04:48):
to spend 6 weeks with a group of people that
you probably didn't know before you came to class and
you're gonna build some relationships. So,
Yeah, so tonight I've been with the gathering over the
past few years. I've done, uh, this will be my
4th church history, um, course, and so I started in
(05:10):
the 4th century, my good friend John Chubik did, he
did the uh first couple of centuries and then I
picked up in the 4th century and tonight we are
kicking off this new uh journey through the 17th.
Uh, 1700s and the 1800s, uh, and looking at the
(05:33):
topic of revival.
So, you know, we've we've heard the term the Great Awakening,
and we've heard the term, of course, the various terms
referring to revivals. So we're gonna be doing a deep
dive into that period of time to 1700s, and we'll
finish up with the uh couple of things in the 1800s. Yeah, so,
(05:57):
so that's what we're doing. And uh the cool thing
is there's a lot of talk in the air right
now about
The topic of revival and some people say we're in
revival and uh others say, maybe, and others say, I
don't think so. So as we look at the historical um.
(06:18):
Examples, I think we'll be able to get a little
bit of a sense of where we might be in
regard to that topic. Yes, absolutely, and you're teaching uh
church history, right? That's what you're gonna be teaching. So everybody, uh,
come on down and see Pastor Brian at uh Calvert
Chapel Coast to Mesa. I said, yeah, I think, I
think there's like.
(06:38):
Uh, 10 different options for courses. So, um, I think
there's probably somewhere online that you could find that and
you could even get signed up for it still and
come out tonight if you're interested, or I could just
say it right now. Go for it.
There's church history of Pastor Brian's teaching. There's also proverbs,
financial stewardship, habits of a healthy marriage, building bridges, prayer,
(07:00):
and spiritual formation, and all these courses are free and
take place on Wednesday night starting tonight at 6:30 throughout
the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa campus, and you can get
more details.
About that at CCCM.com/ Wednesday. So yes, and uh, but
you have to, you have to be in person to
see that. You cannot watch that online that's online. Yes,
(07:21):
but there is one thing that's online, which is when
Sunday nights. Sunday night, yes.
So Sunday nights you can see Back to Basics Live
with you, Pastor Brian Broderson at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa,
and that's Sunday nights at 6:30 Pacific time. But if
you can't get there in person, you can watch it
at back to Basradio.com/live. When we, uh, teaching through the
(07:42):
Bible and we're currently in the Acts of the Apostles,
and this Sunday night we'll be in chapter 20. Yes, so, uh, yeah,
check that out at back to Basradio.com/live.
All right, well, we, uh, you can call and talk
to Pastor Brian Broderson and Pastor Phil Metzger when you
call 888-564-6173 if you want to talk about revival or
(08:05):
whatever else you want to talk about going on in
the world, uh, Israel, what have you, uh, call us
at 888-566.
46173 before we uh go to the phones, let's, uh,
check some of the, uh, questions that people can uh
send us at facebook.com/pastorsperspective, but it's better to hear the
sound of your voice, so call us at 888-564-6173. And, uh,
(08:30):
the first one comes from Wendy.
Uh, Wendy in Irvine says, uh, she writes, My wonderful
father went to be with the Lord on September 14th
of this year. We just celebrated his life this last weekend,
and speaking with a pastor there about my dad, uh,
so that, uh, he would be prepared for the memorial service, uh,
(08:53):
he mentioned that our dad would be there and would
be aware of what we were saying about him. Now,
I was wondering,
If it's true that in scripture that once we go
to heaven, we're aware of what's going on in the world.
And moreover, uh, if scripture can support that, we are
specifically aware of what's happening with our loved ones, and
(09:15):
I'll start with uh Pastor Brian.
No, um, I, yeah, I, I mean, I don't know
who this person was or why they thought that that
was the case.
I, I guess people do think those kinds of things,
but there's nothing in the Bible that would indicate that
at all. Uh, you know, according to scripture, when we depart,
(09:37):
we depart to be with the Lord.
And we're not hanging around here watching what's going on. So, yeah,
so who knows? I mean, maybe this person just developed
a theory and thought this is probably encouraging or comforting
to people that their loved one's gonna actually be right here,
but that's not accurate. Yes, yes. And, and Pastor Phil,
(10:01):
I mean, have you had people say things like, you know,
I felt my, my mother's presence or my father's presence
or something like that, and and how do you respond
when people say things like that?
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Oh man, of course. I hear that all the time.
And you know what? I just say that's wonderful because,
you know, I mean, if it's something that makes them
feel like better, you know, and that's not a lie. Like,
I mean, you know, I think, you know, I think
sometimes we mistake the idea that the presence of God
near us, and then, you know, we just recently, you know,
if you lose someone, and then God's just meeting you,
(10:30):
and you're kind of like, you know, you're grieving and
you're hurting, so you kind of associate that with that person.
So, you know, I don't know, somebody will probably call
in and say Phil's lying to people. No, I don't
mean it to lie, just that, you know, it's kind
of like a, it's a point of like, do I
really wanna get into like ruining their moment for, for what,
you know, and I agree with Brian, like it's like.
We want to say things sometimes to make people feel
(10:52):
better at a funeral and like the uh it's not
comforting to say, oh, and they're right here listening in
a part of it. I don't want a loved one
who knew Jesus to be hanging out at their funeral.
I want to know they're with Jesus, like seriously like.
I want to know they're in the presence of God.
Like that's, that's my comfort because now I'm discouraged that
they're here hanging out listening to this eulogy. I am
(11:15):
more comforted to know they're with the Lord, you know, and,
you know, time is kind of like a non-factor in heaven.
And so the idea that like, you know, they're like
missing us until we get there is kind of just
like misguided in the context of timeline.
You know, they're outside of time when they go to
be with the Lord. And so that moment and then
(11:36):
us there and all of eternity is kind of like a, a, a,
a mixed bag. So they're, they're not missing us at all.
And I'm so glad to know that they're, they're the
the best version of themselves. They're finally that. That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Yeah. And, and I'm with you. I wouldn't, you know,
somebody came up and said, you know, gosh, I really,
you know, felt my
My loved one's presence here today, I wouldn't say, uh, no,
you didn't, um, there.
They're, they're not here, you know, I would just say
like you, oh, that's great, you know, let's move on.
The Lord will help them sort it out, you know,
(12:10):
in time. We're, we're there to preach the gospel and,
you know, when people hear the gospel and respond to
the gospel and receive the gospel, it's amazing how many
things just naturally sort.
Themselves
out.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
That's so true. So true. So
Speaker 1 (12:25):
we'll focus on the main thing and then it'll be good.
Now I suppose because people are hurting so bad, that's
one of the reasons they go to psychics and stuff
like that because I got to hear from Grandma one
more time. What wouldma say about this, you know.
Yes, very much so. And, and I think that's where
the gospel is so wonderful because it gives you a
real comfort with, without any false ideas or information, you know,
(12:51):
I mean, the greatest comfort in the world is like
my loved one is in the ultimate space uh with
the Lord who is the creator of all things and
who created them and who loves them and this is
actually why they
We created in the first place. So, I mean, that's,
that's all very comforting, I think.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
And you think too, like, I mean, how many funerals
have we both done, Brian, where it's like, it's just sad.
It's just sad. There's no like, and they knew the
Lord and you're like, it's so sad. So I try
to imagine like, what's it like for people who don't
know the Lord? I think, Michael, to your point, dude,
you're just desperate for one more, like one more moment,
one more thing. I totally get it.
(13:32):
Um, it's such a lie of the devil to wanna
take the space of like, to use that as a,
a way of just it's such a terrible distraction from,
from what they really need, which is in that moment,
like when you're a terrible, like, you're in terrible grief,
this is your moment when like God could meet you
in such a sweet way. But, um, but then, you know,
(13:52):
the devil comes in with these lies and, um, people
that don't know Christ, they're just, you're just desperate and
that's a hard time.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
So what would you, Pastor Phil, what would you say
to somebody who said, but I want to go to
the psychic cause I need to hear from Grandma one
more time. What would you say?
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I would say that that's what I would say, well,
Grandma's not gonna speak through that psychic, um, you know,
and I wish, I wish for you. I honest to
God wish for you that you could. I seriously wish.
I've got people I'd love to get to talk to again, absolutely,
but I know where they are, so I'm gonna have
to hold that conversation to go be with them.
And that's, and so you, you're wanting an immediate fix
(14:28):
to something that's hurting, but you're the answer is it's
time to put your faith in Christ, um, you know,
the same people, you know, quite often the people who
don't believe that there even is a God are quick
to go to like a psychic or spiritual issues.
And um that's the kind of the irony of those things.
We need to, um, I, I would be very clear,
that's not a moment where I'm gonna be like, well,
(14:50):
what's your whatever. Now I'm gonna be super clear and say, I, that's,
that's that those things are not from God. Don't get
into that.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Yeah,
and and like I said, I, I mean, that's the
moment when the truth itself will actually do way more
for your peace of mind.
Then it could ever be done through a psychic or,
you know, going in that direction in some way or another. So, no,
(15:20):
just tell them the truth about the good news of
Jesus conquered the grave, and those who trust in Him,
they conquer the grave with him. Absolutely, yeah, it's it's
better for us to hear from God than to hear
from Grandma or grandpa who's already gone. God knows more
than they do. So yes, so great question, uh, Wendy
from Irvine contacting us on Facebook.com/pastorsperspective. Again, 888-564-6173 is the
(15:48):
number to call if you want to talk to Pastor
Brian Broderson and Pastor Phil Metzger, again, 888-564-617.
And 3. Another question we have on Facebook is from Tina,
and she asks, can you tell me your thoughts on
deliverance when it comes to believers in Christ? Do they
need deliverance? Why would we need to be delivered if
(16:09):
we have freedom in Christ when we're born again? And
we'll start with Phil on that one.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Well, the, the, the term deliverance and it's kind of,
it goes through iterations throughout like kind of church history
including in our own, like, say the last 50 years,
and it depends on your kind of church background, what, what,
you know, you say the word deliverance, so I have
a pastor on staff here who always uses this analogy.
He says like,
Every word is like you, it's like a cup and
(16:35):
you have to fill it so that you have the
same definition. Otherwise we're working off of a million different definitions.
So you say deliverance and certain people in certain um
Christian contexts, they're thinking.
In a certain direction and then others in another direction. So,
I'm just gonna mention to the second point of the
question of like, if a Christian has been set free,
why do they need deliverance? Again, I, I don't know
(16:56):
how we're defining or how that person is defining deliverance,
but I would say to that that the Bible encourages
our sanctification.
You read this all over Romans, OK? Romans 5678, sanctification,
and that is that like we are in process. God
is working out His salvation in our lives. And so
(17:19):
the idea that we are still needing to be delivered
is very biblical. It's very true.
Um, but again, as I said, people have different ideas
about what deliverance mean. I would take it to mean that,
that I'm, I'm still struggle, I still struggle with sin,
and I need God to keep delivering me. And that's
a part of the sanctification process of the work of
the gospel.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
But I would say that I, I think the context
that the, the question comes in is more of the
idea of deliverance from demonic, um.
You know, power or or influence or or something like that.
So in the charismatic world, deliverance is a big thing, uh,
(18:02):
because the idea is that somehow all of your problems
are due to the fact that there are demons that
have somehow attached themselves to you, maybe through
Uh, maybe through your family that you didn't even know about,
but generationally demons have, have, uh, been passed from generation
to generation because of sorcery or some sort of thing
(18:26):
in the background. Um, but this is a false idea.
This is not a biblical idea. Uh, the Bible says
that we are delivered.
From the, the kingdom of darkness.
Into the kingdom of God's dear son, when we believe
(18:47):
in Jesus. And so we don't.
needed to have numerous deliverances after that. We might struggle
with things, and sometimes there might be uh demonic forces
that are are
Involved to some degree, but the main issues are generally
(19:10):
with our own sinful nature that we have to deal with.
And when we deal with that through repentance and faith
and so forth, then we automatically deal with the demon
aspect if there is any demon aspect. So, in my
book on the powers of darkness, the people of God,
the book on spiritual warfare, I actually have just a
little appendix at the end of the book asking the question.
(19:33):
Can Christians be demon possessed? And that's the context of
the deliverance discussion so often, and the answer is unequivocally no.
So we can't be.
Possessed, but we can be oppressed, I guess. Yeah, I, yeah,
I mean, we, you know, obviously the Paul then he
tells us in Ephesians 6 that we are in a battle.
(19:56):
We're in a wrestling match and it's not with flesh
and blood, but it is with these, these spiritual powers.
But there's a difference between this conflict that is going
on around us.
And pressing in on us, then being um possessed within
our very nature by uh an evil spirit, and that's,
(20:19):
you know, the, the funny thing is the
The, the word in the New Testament, Phil, you know, it,
it's not, it doesn't, it never uses the word possession.
It uses the word, um, actually like demonized, and the
context will tell you what that actual the extent of
the demonization, the context will let you know. And so
(20:42):
we read like in Mark chapter, what is it, chapter 5,
where Jesus comes to the other side of the Galilee,
he comes to Gera and there's the man.
Who is a maniac, and he's living among the tombs,
and he's cutting himself, and he, uh, is so supernaturally
(21:02):
energized by dark forces that they can't even restrain him.
They put chains on him and he breaks the chains. Uh,
now that's a person that is demonized, uh, internally to
the fullest extent, and that's a person that Jesus delivered,
and there are some examples of that in scripture.
But that's, he this person obviously is not a believer,
(21:24):
when he comes to Jesus, that the demon is driven out,
and there's no instruction anywhere. I mean, I would think
like if demon possession was a real possibility for Christians,
we would have like a whole chapter on how to
identify it and how to deal with it, but we
don't have anything in scripture. Thus, the conclusion, it's because
(21:45):
it's not a possibility.
Yes, absolutely, absolutely great answers, great answers to that question. Uh,
by the way, you can, uh, get more information on
that book, The Powers of Darkness and the People of
God by Brian Brogerson at Amazon and wherever fine books
are sold. So, uh, thank you, Tina, for contacting us
on Facebook. Again, if you want to talk to Pastor
(22:06):
Brian Broderson or Phil Metzger, uh, you can call us
at 888-564-6173. Uh, another Facebook question, this is Bree. She
asked this question.
Is it true that the Bible says you will be
cut off from buying or selling as a result of
not worshiping the beast? I guess what I'm asking, well,
(22:27):
I guess what I'm trying to ask is, what are
the clear biblical indicators of the mark? I'm only asking
because though I completely trust God to keep me safe,
I'm coming from a place of understanding that biblically, Satan
is deceptive, enticing, and will disguise himself as an angel
of light. Uh, Brian, what would you say to that?
(22:49):
Well, well, Revelation teaches the book, um, the 13th chapter
of Revelation teaches that there will come a time when
there will be um a person who will rise up
to rule the world, and there will be um someone
alongside of them. Revelation refers to them as the beast,
(23:09):
and then the second beast or the false prophet, and
they they they will implement a system.
That requires that everyone uh receive a mark on their
right hand or forehead, and without that mark, they are
not able to purchase anything.
And so I, I do think that that is literal.
(23:31):
I do think that that is something that will happen
in the future. And I think obviously we're we're so
set up for it right now, um, with technology and,
and so forth. I mean, these, these things never could
have happened in an earlier time in history, and therefore
people read them and thought, wow, gee, that's never gonna happen,
(23:51):
but actually we're we're technologically there today.
Um, but it's very specific. It's not something that you're
gonna accidentally do. People have been worried, like, oh no, I,
you know, those new credit cards. I don't know if
I should have one of those. That might be the
mark of the beast, or remember back in 2020 that
(24:14):
there were suggestions that the vaccination was the mark of
the beast. And so there's there's always wild theories about
what this is out there.
Uh, but I think it's very specific. First of all,
it can't happen until somebody comes onto the world scene
who actually brings, uh, most of the world under his authority.
(24:35):
And then along with him, there will be a, uh,
like a spiritual leader that will essentially, uh, call the
world to worship this, this, um.
This political figure who has seemingly sorted out all the
world's problems. So because he's so amazing, uh, let's actually
(24:57):
make an image, and we're gonna worship him.
So
But those things have to be in in place before
we can ever start talking about the mark of the beast.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
If, if you remember Michael yesterday this, this question came up,
Brian yesterday as well, kind of in a, in a
similar way of like, cause everybody's interested like the AI
is freaking everybody out for, for good reason. It's just scary.
It's like something so it was like.
It was, you know, the Terminator when we were younger
and then all of a sudden now it's here. It's
(25:31):
just kind of like, whoa, what in the world is
going on? And, and I think, and we talked about
this and to the point that you made on everything
you said, so good.
We made the point too of like, it's, it's not
just a technological advancement alone. There's like a, there's worship,
there's like, there's other things happening. You're not, you're not,
you don't stumble into the mark of the beast. You
don't like wake up one day and be like, oh
(25:52):
my gosh, I think I took the mark of the beast.
It's very, very specific and intentional.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Yes, exactly.
And when that uh person rises, who's gonna, yeah, be
the political victor, where are they supposed to be at?
Well, I mean, there's a lot of debate over this. Um,
it seems to me from the prophecies of Daniel, that
this person will to some degree or another be connected
to the kind of the, the center of the ancient
(26:21):
Roman Empire. And so I would imagine Europe. Um, but
it doesn't tell us specifically, it just tells us, uh,
there's an interesting prophecy in Daniel chapter 9.
That talks about um the city and the sanctuary being
destroyed uh in the future and that would have been
destroyed by the Romans. We, we already know that that
(26:44):
is the historical reality in 70 AD, uh, the Romans
destroyed the city and the sanctuary, and then it says,
and the people, um.
Or or the prince of the people who is to come, uh,
he will make a covenant with many. So we know
who the people are. The people of Rome, they're the
ones who destroyed the city. So this is a prince
(27:06):
or a leader that comes from that people. Now, of course,
on one level, the Romans are no longer here.
But on another level, the Romans never left, because so
much of the world is is just kind of an
ongoing extension of what Rome was, especially the, the western world. So,
(27:29):
so yeah, I, I think that that is the case. Uh, again,
it's debatable, people would disagree, uh, you know, some people
would disagree that such a thing is even gonna happen.
Some Christians would disagree with it. Um, but I think,
you know, just the plain reading of scripture.
Historically would lend us to draw that conclusion. Yes, and
(27:51):
uh there's so much going on in the Middle East
right now and and Europe right now that some people
are thinking this might be it. Yeah, and you don't
think I have found and Phil jump in any time
on this, but, uh, you know, the
Uh, somebody said that.
(28:12):
The wheels of justice turn slowly. And, you know, God
is the the end result on one level is God
is going to judge the world.
And the question is when, and we don't know, but
I think we can safely say we're headed in that direction,
(28:32):
but we don't know when we're gonna arrive there, and
there could be, there could be stops along the way,
you know, there, there are times when it looks like
Well, I mean, you know, Phil, have you ever thought
about what it would have been like to live in
Europe during the Second World War? I was gonna say that.
I mean, what, what would it have been like for Hitler,
the Third Reich, Mussolini, you know, it's like, uh, you
(28:54):
could think, OK, Hitler's the Antichrist, Mussolini is a false prophet.
It would be so easy to draw that conclusion.
I mean, you could draw that conclusion much easier than
you could point to any person today and say that
they might be it. So,
My point is we have to be careful because things
can look very much like this is it and yet
(29:16):
actually not be it. It's almost like there's these dress rehearsals.
I mean, people thought Nero was the guy. Well, obviously
he wasn't. He's dead for 2000 years, so, uh, but
somebody's gonna come along at some point. So. Yes, and Phil,
we want to hear what you have to say about
this on the second half of the program.
So, uh, we're going into a break right now, but
if you want to talk to Phil and, uh, talk
(29:38):
to Brian, you can when you call 888-564-6173. You can
ask about Israel or revival or anything else that is
on your heart. Uh, 888-564-6173 is the number to call,
and the pastors will answer your questions. 888-564-6173. We'll see
you in a few minutes.
(30:13):
Welcome back to the second half of Pastor's Perspective. I'm
Michael David in for Brian Perez. The number to call
is 888-564-6173. Uh, we have Pastor Brian Broderson and Pastor
Phil Metzger on the program today, and before we went
to the break, we were gonna hear from Pastor Phil.
On, uh, uh, Brian's question about Israel. Go ahead, uh,
(30:35):
Pastor Phil.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Well, we were talking about kind of like in times
and how, you know, some of these, you know, Europe
and Israel and um how World War II, you know,
like I gosh, I, I was thinking this thing like
and having spent a long time in Hungary.
I'm just thinking, man, if I'd been a, if I'd
been a Christian in Hungary in 1940, I would have
(30:57):
absolutely unequivocally believed that these are not just the last days,
like the last months, um, with everything happening, and so I, I,
I have a really, um, really great appreciation for the
fact that like,
We just don't know because everything just fits, so I
(31:17):
don't know, like it, it just fit, you know, the,
the scriptures fit, like you said, Hitler, what was happening
to the Jews. I mean, everything revolved around the very
constructs that we have and the framework of, of last days,
and I think dress rehearsal is a great way to
say it. And I also think that like the church afterwards,
you know, the church in Europe since then.
(31:38):
is far less literal in their understanding of the last days,
and it was before too, and part of that is
just because they kind of feel like, well, we a
branch of our group kind of went down that road
and look where they are, it's it can't be real,
and I, I, I think it scares, quite honestly scares
people there to take it too literal because it's kind
(31:59):
of devastating and so I, I, I have like a
healthy respect for the fact that gosh.
As Paul told us, like, I'm, I'm keeping my eyes
on looking for Jesus cause I, I, I thought that
would have been anti-Christ. It made perfect sense.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
You know, I I remember years ago I was, I
was preaching in one of the churches in Germany.
And I, I guess I can't remember if we were
scheduled to speak on in time stuff or not, but
somehow I, I was on that topic and, you know,
talk talking about the Antichrist and then, um,
I don't think I said it like publicly, but I
(32:36):
might have, but it, but I know somehow it got
out that the Antichrist would come out of Europe.
And, and I remember being confronted by some of the
people in the church afterwards, and they were like, no, no, no, no, no, no,
the Antichrist is coming out of America. America is the,
that's the great Babylon, you know, I'm like, oh they
(32:59):
have a bit of a different perspective over here.
That we do and and of course, you know, in
America we do have uh we do have our own
take on a lot of things. So,
Speaker 2 (33:09):
well, then there's a part that I, you know, cause
I kind of, you know, like, like you, like we
both kind of had this, it's like we're pretty clear
on like it's gotta be from Europe, but then the more,
the more that I've studied it too and obviously, you know,
living overseas like you did.
I've had this kind of thought of like, is it
possible though that like, you know, Rome was one empire
um in a list of empires previous, and is it
(33:31):
possible that it's, it's it's the signification is that it's a, it's,
it's another Rome.
Is it, is it only geographical? It sure seems to be,
so I can't move away from that. But is it
possible that it's just referring to the next kind of
global empire, um, and, uh,
you know,
Speaker 1 (33:48):
well, and then when you look at the, um, like,
especially Daniel 7, you know, when you look at Daniel
7 and you see the various, you know, Daniel has
this vision of these of these beasts.
And, and then, you know, it turns out with the interpretation,
given from the angel, that these are the empires, there's
the Babylonian, there's the um Medo Persian, there's the Greek,
(34:12):
and then there's, you know, finally the Roman, and in
in Daniel, it kind of, it it almost makes it
sound like at some point they they all kind of
Um, sort of mold into one. And so, and then
when you look at, say, um, Iran, for example, because
(34:33):
Iran was never conquered by Rome. The what we know
today is, you know, was ancient Persia. They were outside
of the Roman Empire. They had their own empire, and
they were battling the Romans all the time. So they
never were subjected to them, but of course, they had
their own empire that that preceded it.
So, but in Daniel's saying, it seems like it's, it
(34:55):
could be like sort of all of them joined together. So,
I mean, I think, Phil, you, I don't know if
you were this way or not, but I, you know,
there was a time in my life where I pretty
much had the scenario down and thought, you know, had
a lot of confidence that this is, this is what
(35:17):
it is, you know.
But you live long enough and you realize, OK, I
think we got a few of these bits wrong, and, uh,
I know we did because what we thought never did happen. So, yeah,
and
Speaker 2 (35:28):
live long enough and then, and like you've done reading
the Bible more and like being, you know, like being
like it sounds kind of cliche to say that, but
it's true. It's like you go, oh, I'm gonna let
this filter come off of my eyes. I'm just gonna
read and really study for what it is. And then
you say, oh, I appreciate that there's people who kind
of think a little different than I did.
Yeah, my, it was as crystal clear as could be
in my mind, and I was wrong. Yeah,
Speaker 1 (35:50):
and, and if anybody disagreed with you, you're like, what?
I mean, what's the matter with you? Can't you see that's,
it's obvious, plain as day, yeah, and now you're like,
I guess it wasn't as plain as we thought it was,
Speaker 2 (36:00):
right? Exactly.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Yeah, it wasn't that long ago. There was a pastor
saying that the rapture was gonna happen on the 23rd
or 24th of last month, September. Do you know how
many people have said that? And you know how many
people just sort of buy into it every time it gets,
every time it it recycles, people get buy into it.
And the answer is always the same. Jesus said it
2000 years ago. No one knows the day or the hour,
(36:25):
and these guys just prove over and over again.
That Jesus was actually right. I don't,
Speaker 2 (36:32):
I don't understand why you would even say it, and
he just hear me out, just pragmatically, just think about this.
If you're right, nobody cares cause we're with the Lord,
so we don't care that you were right. You can
only
Lose. Why would you do this? It makes no sense
at all. It's a lose game if you're right, we're like, oh,
who cares about what
Speaker 1 (36:52):
that
Speaker 2 (36:52):
guy
Speaker 1 (36:53):
said? Well,
Speaker 2 (36:54):
if you're wrong, boy, we will never forget your name.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Maybe the, the mentality is like, um, well.
You know, through my false prediction, I got a lot
of notoriety, so I'll just adjust, I'll just adjust the date.
And I'll get more people on board by talking about actually, sorry,
(37:18):
you guys, you know, I missed it by a year.
It's actually next year. And you know, there was a
guy in um back in the 80s. What was this?
Harold Camping? No, it wasn't Harold Camping. He, he, yeah,
he was fairly recent, but back in the 80s there
was a, there was a book that was written by
a guy and it was called 88 Reasons Why Jesus
Will Come in 1988 and '88 Reasons. I mean, that's
(37:41):
quite a few.
And he, I think he, he literally came out with
a book the next year, like 89 reasons, you know,
Edgar Wiset is that was his name, yeah, OK, OK, yes, yes, wow. And, uh, yeah,
and the Harold Camping did that in 2011, 2011, yeah,
(38:01):
I knew there was one that was, yes, I'm sure
there's been many people in between there, but, uh, who've
made predictions of when the rapture is gonna happen, but
Like you said, Pastor Phil, if anybody's ever right, it
won't matter to those of us who go. Well, you know,
in some scenarios, there, there have been people that have
actually
Set a date and then dressed in their white robes
(38:22):
and went up on a hilltop and waited and said, OK,
we're ready to go and
You know, then they came down from the hilltop and
had to resume normal life because
Speaker 2 (38:34):
And then in the like in the terrible extremes and
that was happened happened in San Diego, it's happened around,
you know, where it's like a like a suicide cult
where they like make that happen by, you know, I
mean it's.
It's some wild and crazy stuff
out there.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Yes, yes, it's very, that's a very serious thing. It's
not something to be taken lightly when people make predictions
like that, um, because like you said, Phil, the the
suicide cult, or people just lose their faith. They think, well,
I guess God lied to us because the prophet was
speaking from God and and I know there are some
that have, um.
Uh, you know, Phil, you know, I mean, kind of a,
(39:10):
a group.
Your age and and younger, uh, who they grew up on.
Uh, Bible prophecy, and that's all they heard, and they
heard over and over again about the rapture, and you're
gonna miss the rapture and you better make sure you're
not watching uh something on TV when the rapture comes
(39:33):
because you're going to be left behind, or, you know, what,
whatever the case might be. And, and unfortunately, sadly, that
affected some of them to the extent that today they
just think it's a big joke, you know.
And the Left Behind series was, was all part of that.
And so now they just mock it, they dismiss it,
they just, and I think that's that's sad, but it's
(39:56):
almost like the the people that were promoting it, um,
overly emphasizing it, they, they lent to it a little bit.
They lent to this state that these people have ended
up in, which is very unfortunate.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Yeah, I mean like you said, like people in kind
of my group and younger than me, we, we were like.
I mean, for me, you either became a skeptic or
you just said, hold on a second, something's not right here. Yeah.
And it's like you actually had to decide to disagree
with that in order to be able to just like
look at something for yourself. And that shouldn't be a
position we put our people in, you know, and that
(40:32):
came from overemphasis. It's just too much, too much. Every
year was a new like this event happened in the world,
and let me show you how it fits.
It's like when you're doing a puzzle and the piece
doesn't fit, but you cut it so that it fits.
And it just became so kind of, you know, it's
almost like we're gonna, yeah, we just, we created a
group of cynics because of that. And I don't think
(40:55):
cynicism is good. I don't want to be a cynic.
I believe Jesus is coming back. I'm excited about his, his,
his return. Um, I just, I don't think that there's
a lot of joy that comes from trying to like
fit everything.
Every single thing that happens out there, you know, every
bit of technology, everything Iran does, everything Israel does, everything
Russia does, everything Europe does, it, it ironically, the only
(41:17):
group left out of that is America, and we have
to see the irony of that, you know, we have
to see the irony that like, you know, when everything
happens around the world, it's the last days, but our
own thing doesn't speak to that, it seems.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Well, everybody sees it except us. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2 (41:35):
exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Uh, great answers, great answers to those questions. Appreciate that,
Pastor Brian and Pastor Phil. Uh, let's go to Cindy
who called us at 888-564-6173. Cindy, how can we help you?
Hi, pastors. My question is this talking about Daniel, who
was running the show when Nebuchadnezzar was out eating grass?
(42:02):
That's a great question.
Um, and was it, I mean, it says 7 times
in scriptures, so was that 7 years and was his
son in place? I don't, I, I'm just trying to
get a timeline if you guys know. Um, yeah, no,
I mean, I think you could just assume now remember
Daniel was one of the leading, um,
(42:27):
Uh, what's the word I wanna use, like administrators, yeah,
like he was one of the leading administrators in, in
the government. And so they have a they have a
governmental structure that is existing. So I would imagine that
and Nebuchadnezzar did have um
Uh, a son, uh, apparently there's a debate about this.
(42:48):
Funny enough, my wife and I were talking about it
this morning, um, and some scholars believe that Nebuchadnezzar did
not have a son, and, um, he had a daughter,
and so, um, Nabinitis, who ends up being the father
of Belshazzar, is actually like the son-in-law of Nebuchadnezzar instead
(43:10):
of the, the son.
And the queen mother who comes into Belshazzar is the
daughter of Nebuchadnezzar. Now this is just speculation. Um, we
were talking about it and we both said, I'm not
sure if these people are right about this, but
All, all that to say we don't know, but I
don't think it's, it's that complicated because there was obviously,
(43:35):
uh the structure existed and, um, you know, and they,
they took care of the king during that season, and
7 seasons will pass on you. So there's debate too
about what 7 seasons did that mean 7 years, or
did that mean, you know, 7 seasonal cycles, so it
ended up being
Maybe like 2 years or something, we don't know. Phil,
(43:56):
do you know, do you know anything about this?
Speaker 2 (43:58):
I, I, but I do, I, I wanted to look at, uh,
or read this verse. Daniel 4:36. I, to the point
that you made, Brian, I think it, it backs you
up on this. It says this at the same time
Nebuchadnezzar said this at the same time my reason returned
to me and the glory of my kingdom, my honor,
my splendor returned.
And then listen to the sentence. My counselors and nobles
resorted to me and I was restored to my kingdom.
(44:20):
It gives the impression that they were running things, and
then when he was of sane mind again, they handed
it back over to him. So, to the point you made,
there was administrators, it's a massive kingdom. Nobody was looking
to Nebuchadnezzar for the most part anyways, um, only when they,
and he would build golden statues and stuff like that,
but otherwise, I imagine they just kind of left them.
(44:42):
Left him alone, but it seems like noblemen and counselors
were the ones that restored him.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
All right, uh, but yeah, that is very interesting. Now, Cindy,
why do you ask that question, by the way?
Oh, we're just studying some of the prophets, and it
was something that came up in my Bible study yesterday, so,
very good. Well, did they answer your question?
Uh, yeah, sort of, sort of, I didn't, I didn't really,
(45:08):
I thought, I think, I thought that Belshazzar was his son.
I didn't realize that it was a no Bel Belshazzar
is his, is his Belshazzar is his grandson.
And so this is why when Belshazzar says to Daniel,
you know, when Daniel's brought in after the the writing
on the wall and all of that, but remember Belshazzar says, um,
(45:31):
I will make you a third ruler in the kingdom.
So why didn't he make him 2nd ruler in the kingdom?
Because Belshazzar was 2nd ruler in the kingdom. His father
Nabinidas was the king, but he was not in Babylon. He,
he had actually moved out of Babylon and was living
(45:51):
in um another place. And so Belshazzar would have been his,
his co-regent is the way they would describe it. So
he's ruling with his father and in the place of
his father.
Got it.
Fascinating. Thank you. OK, great. All right. Well, thank you, Cindy,
for calling us from Covina at 888-564-6173. And on yesterday's program,
(46:15):
we didn't talk about, uh, and I blame myself for this.
We didn't talk about yesterday being the anniversary.
Of the Israel conflict, uh, with, uh, Palestine and the
situation going on there and hopefully we're gonna have peace
there now, um, hopefully, um, well, let me just leave
it at that and let the pastors give their take
(46:37):
on what's going on there in Israel right now. Uh,
start with you, Pastor Brian. What do you say? Yeah, well,
like you said, Michael, it was um 2 years ago, um.
From yesterday that the uh Hamas, the terrorists, uh, invaded
into Israel and slaughtered those 1200 people and took 200+
(46:58):
people into a hostage situation and, and that, and then
as a result of that, this war in Gaza now
that has been going on for this time, and as,
as we all know, there's um uh somewhat of a
peace plan on the table that they're negotiating even as
we speak. So,
(47:18):
It would just be wonderful if if that all did
come to a conclusion, um, but who knows? We, we
don't know where it's gonna go. But yeah, very sad
and
On many, many levels, obviously the event itself was horrific, uh,
but what's just as equally tragic is to see the
(47:41):
way the world has responded. And you know, the irony
to think that the sympathies of so many people in
the West, and not just the West, but the West
should know better, are with the, the murderers. That is
so puzzling, you know, that somehow.
Uh, the people that were attacked and therefore retaliated, uh,
(48:03):
they're the bad guys in this, according to many, and
it's just, it just shows you how upside down and
backward the world is, you know,
Speaker 2 (48:11):
so I
spent some time yesterday listening to like kind of watching
interviews with some of the hostages who have been released.
And it's just, I mean, it's gut wrenching. It's like the,
it's it's if you thought like you had a worst nightmare,
this is worse. And um how, I mean, gosh.
(48:32):
Listen, this is when we all are like praying for
there to be peace in that part of the world
more than ever, just, uh, it's just, it's been so
brutal and so terrible.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
Yeah,
Speaker 2 (48:41):
heartbreaking.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
Yeah, so, um, you know, hopefully.
This will
This plan that that uh President Trump has put forth, uh,
hopefully there will be a positive response.
And this can end. Now the battle's been going on
(49:03):
for a long time between the peoples who are fighting
right now, all the way back to like Isaac and
Ishmael would I mean, well, Isaac and Ishmael, I think
is a little bit of a stretch, but
Speaker 2 (49:15):
a little too far back,
Speaker 1 (49:16):
a little too far back, yes, um, you know, Isaac
and Ishmael were brothers and, um, and then that some
would say Jacob and Esau and of course they were
brothers too.
Um, but I, I mean, you know, this is more,
this really would go back more to the, uh, probably
like the 7th century to, um, the time of Muhammad,
(49:39):
to the conquering of the whole region by Muhammad and
his armies, and, and then, you know, the colonization by
the Muslims of all of these various lands, uh, that
they feel that.
Basically, they have ownership, uh, and they would
(50:01):
I mean, they might want to try to take it
back further, but that that's as far as you can
really go with it. But, but it doesn't even go
back that far realistically because um those, you know, Muhammad
came and then his successors and then their successors and
then their successors and, you know, various powers ruled over
(50:23):
the region at different times in history and it went
out of the hand, in and out of the hands
of Muslim powers and
And what were called Christian powers and you know, it
was under the Ottomans in the most recent uh period
and then it came under the British, and it was
from the British that the nation uh that we know
(50:45):
today as Israel came out of what was then the
part of the British Empire. So that this Palestine, you know, was,
was under British control.
And there were Jews and Arabs living in the land.
There were no Palestinians other than, um, everybody who lived
there was identified as a Palestinian. So you can go
back and you can find reference to uh clearly references
(51:08):
to Jews who are called Palestinians because that's what the
British mandate referred to the, to the region as. Uh,
what we think of Palestinians today didn't really come about
until the 1960s through the efforts of Yasser Arafat.
And so, uh, but yeah, I mean, I think you
can trace it back very specifically to 1948 and to the,
(51:33):
the War of Independence, which wasn't really, uh, initially, it
it was it was kind of more of a of
a battle in some ways against uh the Jews fighting
against the British. Uh, it wasn't like a big war,
but the British finally just said, we don't need this, we're,
we're gonna get out of here.
And Israel was recognized by um.
(51:58):
The United States and some others as an independent nation
at that point. And then, that's when the whole Arab
world descended upon this newly formed little land and tried
to
Speaker 2 (52:13):
Well, and, and, and put into that time that that
the the British said, well, let's give land to both,
like they can just both have their own country and
the the Jews there were like, hey, we'll take it,
we'll take whatever we can get. And the Arab community
had this view.
Like, well, listen, we could probably take it all, let's
reject that. and let's not do that. And little did they,
(52:37):
you know, they've just underestimated the the the might of
the Jewish people at that time to fight for their
own land. So it could have been two states, you know,
as far back as 1948. Um, here we are still
fighting and, um, still arguing about, you know, kind of
things that, you know, yeah, this is unnecessary. I'm thinking
too back to what you said, Brian, about the the
(52:57):
British and their involvement.
There was decades of, you know, I mean this land
was not a great land. I mean, we we think
of it today and we're we're we're highly mistaken at
how it was malaria infested. It was gross. It was,
it took a lot of work. People were not Jews and, and,
and Arabs and Muslims were all living next to each
other and not fighting because everybody was just fighting to survive.
(53:21):
And uh, and then, then, you know, then this politicization
of it all became, you know, almost a world war there.
It's incredible.
Speaker 1 (53:29):
Now, I wanted to ask you though, because I've heard
uh Brian, because I've heard some Arab Muslims believe that
they are descendants of Ishmael. Now I don't know if
they really are or not.
Just like the the Israelis feel they're descendants of Isaac. Yeah, well,
the Israelis are for sure descendants of Isaac. It's not
a matter of feeling, it's a matter of fact. Um, I,
(53:50):
you know, the Arab world is, is very, it's a
very mixed world, and, um, the Arab people themselves are
not necessarily descended from Ishmael. Um, they're perhaps descended from
um Abraham, but not through Ishmael.
So, you know, Ishmael has his own descendants way back
(54:12):
at the time of Abraham, and then even Esau has
uh his descendants, what you would call the Edomites. There,
there's no record that really tracks Ishmael so much. There
there's more of a record that tracks uh Esau, but
that record kind of comes to a conclusion with Herod.
(54:32):
Herod is actually an Edomite king.
So, Herod is kind of the last of the descendants,
at least anyone who would be well known in history.
He's the last descendant of Esau. And so then, of course,
that's the first century, and then after that, you've got
all kinds of movements, but you have the Queen of
(54:53):
Sheba that she comes way back in the time of
Solomon and people identify Sheba as what we know as
Arabia today.
And so it's, it's very difficult to um
Identify just exactly who's who, especially in the Arab world.
(55:14):
And so, the Jews, it's not difficult because they are
one people who have literally stuck together for
The past 2000 years. All right, great answers, Pastor Bryant. Uh,
Pastor Phil, I, we're gonna have to stop now. I
would love to hear from you, but we'll have to
hear from you next time, OK? Uh, this is the
end of the program. Uh, Pastor Phil A Metzger from
(55:36):
Calvary Chapel, San Diego and Pastor Brian Broderson at Calvary
Chapel to.
So, thank you for being on the program. Remember the
gathering starts tonight at Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa. Free courses
you can learn about the Bible, learn about church history
from Pastor Brian Broderson. All the details at CCCM.com/ Wednesday.
I'm Michael David in for Brian Perez. See you next
(55:57):
time on Pastor's Perspective.
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. My name is Michael
David in for Brian Perez. The number to call is
888-564-6173 to get the answers to your questions on the Bible,
the Christian faith, and how to live the Christian life.
On today's program we have Pastor Brian Broderson, Pastor Emeritus
at Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa. You can get more information
(00:37):
about his ministry at echoesofMercy.com.
And also Phil Metzger from Calvary Chapel, San Diego, where
he is pastor, and you can get more details about
him and his church at CalvarySD.com. So welcome to the program,
Pastor Brian and Pastor Phil. Well, thank you, Michael David.
(00:58):
It's great to be on the program with you today.
And it's great to be with Phil too, but I
don't know if Phil can see us or hear
us.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
I can. I can see you. I can hear you.
Can you hear
me?
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Yeah, I can hear you and I can hear you,
but you can't see my screen, can you? No,
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I can't. I can't see the teams yet, but I
can see you guys. I can see your lovely face
and Brian Broderson we're like matchy matchy today.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
And I was commenting, I don't think you heard me, Phil,
I was commenting on how nice your hair looks in
contrast to my hair, which looks completely crazy. Well, I
heard
Speaker 2 (01:32):
so I, I only caught the part where you said,
I need to get my daughter to get me a haircut.
So I could only assume I didn't hear the compliment,
but I definitely heard the part.
I don't think your hair looks crazy, and you've been, um,
out of country for a while, so you have every
excuse
in the world.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
I've been traipsing through the jungles of El Salvador. Wow,
what was that and the cities as well. It
Speaker 2 (01:53):
looked amazing.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Uh, it was so good. I love it. I've been
to El Salvador many times, so this was actually my
2nd time this year to be down and
We have some, you know, great friends, some really amazing churches,
and yeah, so did some conferences and spoke at a
bunch of churches and and all of that. And Phil,
every time I'm in that part of the world, I'm thinking,
(02:16):
all right, Phil, we gotta get down here together and
I was with Dave Eason and of course you grew
up with Dave's son.
So we were talking about you and come on I
know you're ready to go and of course we're going to,
we're going to Peru together in February.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yes, we are. I'm excited for that. I can't wait.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
So good. Yeah, you know, the Lord's doing some really
great stuff in in that whole world, I think whether
it's Mexico or the Central American countries or South American
countries are so many great, great opportunities for the gospel.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
I love it. No, I'm so excited. This will be
my first time to South America with you guys. I
can't wait. I'm super excited. It's gonna
Speaker 1 (02:59):
be great. But since we saw each other, you went
to Portugal.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I did. I just got back last week and I
had an amazing, so we're this year is our 30th anniversary, um,
me and Joy, so we're kind of, uh, yeah, we're
kind of like when we can get away, we're just
doing it and we did it was so dude, Portugal
you guys.
5 stars, it's amazing, unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
I've heard that from everyone.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Dude, unbelievable, and we have some great churches there, some
great Calvary churches that I got to visit and um
and then we got to go to Madrid and visit
our missionaries there too, some great works going on and
but boy oh boy, Portugal, you and Cheryl need to
go to Portugal. You really do.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah, there's a couple there that have like this um.
Uh, you know, they have a house where they like
to have people come and just stay, and so they
keep inviting us, you know, we've, we've got the room,
we're waiting for you to come, and so we say, well, OK,
you know, maybe, maybe one of these days we'll get there,
so we'll see. Yeah. And Pastor Brian, you also have
(04:06):
something going on tonight called The Gathering. What is that? Well,
the gathering is, uh, it's
I guess I guess the best way to describe it, it's,
it's a little bit of a um.
Like
It's a classroom environment with a variety of different topics.
I think we have 9 or 10 different topics. We
do this 3 times a year, and 3 times a
(04:28):
year for 6 weeks, we jump into
Uh, different topics, different teachers, and it's an opportunity for
people to really drill down into a specific topic of
interest and to be in more of a classroom setting,
a smaller kind of a context where you're gonna get
(04:48):
to spend 6 weeks with a group of people that
you probably didn't know before you came to class and
you're gonna build some relationships. So,
Yeah, so tonight I've been with the gathering over the
past few years. I've done, uh, this will be my
4th church history, um, course, and so I started in
(05:10):
the 4th century, my good friend John Chubik did, he
did the uh first couple of centuries and then I
picked up in the 4th century and tonight we are
kicking off this new uh journey through the 17th.
Uh, 1700s and the 1800s, uh, and looking at the
(05:33):
topic of revival.
So, you know, we've we've heard the term the Great Awakening,
and we've heard the term, of course, the various terms
referring to revivals. So we're gonna be doing a deep
dive into that period of time to 1700s, and we'll
finish up with the uh couple of things in the 1800s. Yeah, so,
(05:57):
so that's what we're doing. And uh the cool thing
is there's a lot of talk in the air right
now about
The topic of revival and some people say we're in
revival and uh others say, maybe, and others say, I
don't think so. So as we look at the historical um.
(06:18):
Examples, I think we'll be able to get a little
bit of a sense of where we might be in
regard to that topic. Yes, absolutely, and you're teaching uh
church history, right? That's what you're gonna be teaching. So everybody, uh,
come on down and see Pastor Brian at uh Calvert
Chapel Coast to Mesa. I said, yeah, I think, I
think there's like.
(06:38):
Uh, 10 different options for courses. So, um, I think
there's probably somewhere online that you could find that and
you could even get signed up for it still and
come out tonight if you're interested, or I could just
say it right now. Go for it.
There's church history of Pastor Brian's teaching. There's also proverbs,
financial stewardship, habits of a healthy marriage, building bridges, prayer,
(07:00):
and spiritual formation, and all these courses are free and
take place on Wednesday night starting tonight at 6:30 throughout
the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa campus, and you can get
more details.
About that at CCCM.com/ Wednesday. So yes, and uh, but
you have to, you have to be in person to
see that. You cannot watch that online that's online. Yes,
(07:21):
but there is one thing that's online, which is when
Sunday nights. Sunday night, yes.
So Sunday nights you can see Back to Basics Live
with you, Pastor Brian Broderson at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa,
and that's Sunday nights at 6:30 Pacific time. But if
you can't get there in person, you can watch it
at back to Basradio.com/live. When we, uh, teaching through the
(07:42):
Bible and we're currently in the Acts of the Apostles,
and this Sunday night we'll be in chapter 20. Yes, so, uh, yeah,
check that out at back to Basradio.com/live.
All right, well, we, uh, you can call and talk
to Pastor Brian Broderson and Pastor Phil Metzger when you
call 888-564-6173 if you want to talk about revival or
(08:05):
whatever else you want to talk about going on in
the world, uh, Israel, what have you, uh, call us
at 888-566.
46173 before we uh go to the phones, let's, uh,
check some of the, uh, questions that people can uh
send us at facebook.com/pastorsperspective, but it's better to hear the
sound of your voice, so call us at 888-564-6173. And, uh,
(08:30):
the first one comes from Wendy.
Uh, Wendy in Irvine says, uh, she writes, My wonderful
father went to be with the Lord on September 14th
of this year. We just celebrated his life this last weekend,
and speaking with a pastor there about my dad, uh,
so that, uh, he would be prepared for the memorial service, uh,
(08:53):
he mentioned that our dad would be there and would
be aware of what we were saying about him. Now,
I was wondering,
If it's true that in scripture that once we go
to heaven, we're aware of what's going on in the world.
And moreover, uh, if scripture can support that, we are
specifically aware of what's happening with our loved ones, and
(09:15):
I'll start with uh Pastor Brian.
No, um, I, yeah, I, I mean, I don't know
who this person was or why they thought that that
was the case.
I, I guess people do think those kinds of things,
but there's nothing in the Bible that would indicate that
at all. Uh, you know, according to scripture, when we depart,
(09:37):
we depart to be with the Lord.
And we're not hanging around here watching what's going on. So, yeah,
so who knows? I mean, maybe this person just developed
a theory and thought this is probably encouraging or comforting
to people that their loved one's gonna actually be right here,
but that's not accurate. Yes, yes. And, and Pastor Phil,
(10:01):
I mean, have you had people say things like, you know,
I felt my, my mother's presence or my father's presence
or something like that, and and how do you respond
when people say things like that?
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Oh man, of course. I hear that all the time.
And you know what? I just say that's wonderful because,
you know, I mean, if it's something that makes them
feel like better, you know, and that's not a lie. Like,
I mean, you know, I think, you know, I think
sometimes we mistake the idea that the presence of God
near us, and then, you know, we just recently, you know,
if you lose someone, and then God's just meeting you,
(10:30):
and you're kind of like, you know, you're grieving and
you're hurting, so you kind of associate that with that person.
So, you know, I don't know, somebody will probably call
in and say Phil's lying to people. No, I don't
mean it to lie, just that, you know, it's kind
of like a, it's a point of like, do I
really wanna get into like ruining their moment for, for what,
you know, and I agree with Brian, like it's like.
We want to say things sometimes to make people feel
(10:52):
better at a funeral and like the uh it's not
comforting to say, oh, and they're right here listening in
a part of it. I don't want a loved one
who knew Jesus to be hanging out at their funeral.
I want to know they're with Jesus, like seriously like.
I want to know they're in the presence of God.
Like that's, that's my comfort because now I'm discouraged that
they're here hanging out listening to this eulogy. I am
(11:15):
more comforted to know they're with the Lord, you know, and,
you know, time is kind of like a non-factor in heaven.
And so the idea that like, you know, they're like
missing us until we get there is kind of just
like misguided in the context of timeline.
You know, they're outside of time when they go to
be with the Lord. And so that moment and then
(11:36):
us there and all of eternity is kind of like a, a, a,
a mixed bag. So they're, they're not missing us at all.
And I'm so glad to know that they're, they're the
the best version of themselves. They're finally that. That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Yeah. And, and I'm with you. I wouldn't, you know,
somebody came up and said, you know, gosh, I really,
you know, felt my
My loved one's presence here today, I wouldn't say, uh, no,
you didn't, um, there.
They're, they're not here, you know, I would just say
like you, oh, that's great, you know, let's move on.
The Lord will help them sort it out, you know,
(12:10):
in time. We're, we're there to preach the gospel and,
you know, when people hear the gospel and respond to
the gospel and receive the gospel, it's amazing how many
things just naturally sort.
Themselves
out.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
That's so true. So true. So
Speaker 1 (12:25):
we'll focus on the main thing and then it'll be good.
Now I suppose because people are hurting so bad, that's
one of the reasons they go to psychics and stuff
like that because I got to hear from Grandma one
more time. What wouldma say about this, you know.
Yes, very much so. And, and I think that's where
the gospel is so wonderful because it gives you a
real comfort with, without any false ideas or information, you know,
(12:51):
I mean, the greatest comfort in the world is like
my loved one is in the ultimate space uh with
the Lord who is the creator of all things and
who created them and who loves them and this is
actually why they
We created in the first place. So, I mean, that's,
that's all very comforting, I think.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
And you think too, like, I mean, how many funerals
have we both done, Brian, where it's like, it's just sad.
It's just sad. There's no like, and they knew the
Lord and you're like, it's so sad. So I try
to imagine like, what's it like for people who don't
know the Lord? I think, Michael, to your point, dude,
you're just desperate for one more, like one more moment,
one more thing. I totally get it.
(13:32):
Um, it's such a lie of the devil to wanna
take the space of like, to use that as a,
a way of just it's such a terrible distraction from,
from what they really need, which is in that moment,
like when you're a terrible, like, you're in terrible grief,
this is your moment when like God could meet you
in such a sweet way. But, um, but then, you know,
(13:52):
the devil comes in with these lies and, um, people
that don't know Christ, they're just, you're just desperate and
that's a hard time.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
So what would you, Pastor Phil, what would you say
to somebody who said, but I want to go to
the psychic cause I need to hear from Grandma one
more time. What would you say?
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I would say that that's what I would say, well,
Grandma's not gonna speak through that psychic, um, you know,
and I wish, I wish for you. I honest to
God wish for you that you could. I seriously wish.
I've got people I'd love to get to talk to again, absolutely,
but I know where they are, so I'm gonna have
to hold that conversation to go be with them.
And that's, and so you, you're wanting an immediate fix
(14:28):
to something that's hurting, but you're the answer is it's
time to put your faith in Christ, um, you know,
the same people, you know, quite often the people who
don't believe that there even is a God are quick
to go to like a psychic or spiritual issues.
And um that's the kind of the irony of those things.
We need to, um, I, I would be very clear,
that's not a moment where I'm gonna be like, well,
(14:50):
what's your whatever. Now I'm gonna be super clear and say, I, that's,
that's that those things are not from God. Don't get
into that.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Yeah,
and and like I said, I, I mean, that's the
moment when the truth itself will actually do way more
for your peace of mind.
Then it could ever be done through a psychic or,
you know, going in that direction in some way or another. So, no,
(15:20):
just tell them the truth about the good news of
Jesus conquered the grave, and those who trust in Him,
they conquer the grave with him. Absolutely, yeah, it's it's
better for us to hear from God than to hear
from Grandma or grandpa who's already gone. God knows more
than they do. So yes, so great question, uh, Wendy
from Irvine contacting us on Facebook.com/pastorsperspective. Again, 888-564-6173 is the
(15:48):
number to call if you want to talk to Pastor
Brian Broderson and Pastor Phil Metzger, again, 888-564-617.
And 3. Another question we have on Facebook is from Tina,
and she asks, can you tell me your thoughts on
deliverance when it comes to believers in Christ? Do they
need deliverance? Why would we need to be delivered if
(16:09):
we have freedom in Christ when we're born again? And
we'll start with Phil on that one.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Well, the, the, the term deliverance and it's kind of,
it goes through iterations throughout like kind of church history
including in our own, like, say the last 50 years,
and it depends on your kind of church background, what, what,
you know, you say the word deliverance, so I have
a pastor on staff here who always uses this analogy.
He says like,
Every word is like you, it's like a cup and
(16:35):
you have to fill it so that you have the
same definition. Otherwise we're working off of a million different definitions.
So you say deliverance and certain people in certain um
Christian contexts, they're thinking.
In a certain direction and then others in another direction. So,
I'm just gonna mention to the second point of the
question of like, if a Christian has been set free,
why do they need deliverance? Again, I, I don't know
(16:56):
how we're defining or how that person is defining deliverance,
but I would say to that that the Bible encourages
our sanctification.
You read this all over Romans, OK? Romans 5678, sanctification,
and that is that like we are in process. God
is working out His salvation in our lives. And so
(17:19):
the idea that we are still needing to be delivered
is very biblical. It's very true.
Um, but again, as I said, people have different ideas
about what deliverance mean. I would take it to mean that,
that I'm, I'm still struggle, I still struggle with sin,
and I need God to keep delivering me. And that's
a part of the sanctification process of the work of
the gospel.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
But I would say that I, I think the context
that the, the question comes in is more of the
idea of deliverance from demonic, um.
You know, power or or influence or or something like that.
So in the charismatic world, deliverance is a big thing, uh,
(18:02):
because the idea is that somehow all of your problems
are due to the fact that there are demons that
have somehow attached themselves to you, maybe through
Uh, maybe through your family that you didn't even know about,
but generationally demons have, have, uh, been passed from generation
to generation because of sorcery or some sort of thing
(18:26):
in the background. Um, but this is a false idea.
This is not a biblical idea. Uh, the Bible says
that we are delivered.
From the, the kingdom of darkness.
Into the kingdom of God's dear son, when we believe
(18:47):
in Jesus. And so we don't.
needed to have numerous deliverances after that. We might struggle
with things, and sometimes there might be uh demonic forces
that are are
Involved to some degree, but the main issues are generally
(19:10):
with our own sinful nature that we have to deal with.
And when we deal with that through repentance and faith
and so forth, then we automatically deal with the demon
aspect if there is any demon aspect. So, in my
book on the powers of darkness, the people of God,
the book on spiritual warfare, I actually have just a
little appendix at the end of the book asking the question.
(19:33):
Can Christians be demon possessed? And that's the context of
the deliverance discussion so often, and the answer is unequivocally no.
So we can't be.
Possessed, but we can be oppressed, I guess. Yeah, I, yeah,
I mean, we, you know, obviously the Paul then he
tells us in Ephesians 6 that we are in a battle.
(19:56):
We're in a wrestling match and it's not with flesh
and blood, but it is with these, these spiritual powers.
But there's a difference between this conflict that is going
on around us.
And pressing in on us, then being um possessed within
our very nature by uh an evil spirit, and that's,
(20:19):
you know, the, the funny thing is the
The, the word in the New Testament, Phil, you know, it,
it's not, it doesn't, it never uses the word possession.
It uses the word, um, actually like demonized, and the
context will tell you what that actual the extent of
the demonization, the context will let you know. And so
(20:42):
we read like in Mark chapter, what is it, chapter 5,
where Jesus comes to the other side of the Galilee,
he comes to Gera and there's the man.
Who is a maniac, and he's living among the tombs,
and he's cutting himself, and he, uh, is so supernaturally
(21:02):
energized by dark forces that they can't even restrain him.
They put chains on him and he breaks the chains. Uh,
now that's a person that is demonized, uh, internally to
the fullest extent, and that's a person that Jesus delivered,
and there are some examples of that in scripture.
But that's, he this person obviously is not a believer,
(21:24):
when he comes to Jesus, that the demon is driven out,
and there's no instruction anywhere. I mean, I would think
like if demon possession was a real possibility for Christians,
we would have like a whole chapter on how to
identify it and how to deal with it, but we
don't have anything in scripture. Thus, the conclusion, it's because
(21:45):
it's not a possibility.
Yes, absolutely, absolutely great answers, great answers to that question. Uh,
by the way, you can, uh, get more information on
that book, The Powers of Darkness and the People of
God by Brian Brogerson at Amazon and wherever fine books
are sold. So, uh, thank you, Tina, for contacting us
on Facebook. Again, if you want to talk to Pastor
(22:06):
Brian Broderson or Phil Metzger, uh, you can call us
at 888-564-6173. Uh, another Facebook question, this is Bree. She
asked this question.
Is it true that the Bible says you will be
cut off from buying or selling as a result of
not worshiping the beast? I guess what I'm asking, well,
(22:27):
I guess what I'm trying to ask is, what are
the clear biblical indicators of the mark? I'm only asking
because though I completely trust God to keep me safe,
I'm coming from a place of understanding that biblically, Satan
is deceptive, enticing, and will disguise himself as an angel
of light. Uh, Brian, what would you say to that?
(22:49):
Well, well, Revelation teaches the book, um, the 13th chapter
of Revelation teaches that there will come a time when
there will be um a person who will rise up
to rule the world, and there will be um someone
alongside of them. Revelation refers to them as the beast,
(23:09):
and then the second beast or the false prophet, and
they they they will implement a system.
That requires that everyone uh receive a mark on their
right hand or forehead, and without that mark, they are
not able to purchase anything.
And so I, I do think that that is literal.
(23:31):
I do think that that is something that will happen
in the future. And I think obviously we're we're so
set up for it right now, um, with technology and,
and so forth. I mean, these, these things never could
have happened in an earlier time in history, and therefore
people read them and thought, wow, gee, that's never gonna happen,
(23:51):
but actually we're we're technologically there today.
Um, but it's very specific. It's not something that you're
gonna accidentally do. People have been worried, like, oh no, I,
you know, those new credit cards. I don't know if
I should have one of those. That might be the
mark of the beast, or remember back in 2020 that
(24:14):
there were suggestions that the vaccination was the mark of
the beast. And so there's there's always wild theories about
what this is out there.
Uh, but I think it's very specific. First of all,
it can't happen until somebody comes onto the world scene
who actually brings, uh, most of the world under his authority.
(24:35):
And then along with him, there will be a, uh,
like a spiritual leader that will essentially, uh, call the
world to worship this, this, um.
This political figure who has seemingly sorted out all the
world's problems. So because he's so amazing, uh, let's actually
(24:57):
make an image, and we're gonna worship him.
So
But those things have to be in in place before
we can ever start talking about the mark of the beast.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
If, if you remember Michael yesterday this, this question came up,
Brian yesterday as well, kind of in a, in a
similar way of like, cause everybody's interested like the AI
is freaking everybody out for, for good reason. It's just scary.
It's like something so it was like.
It was, you know, the Terminator when we were younger
and then all of a sudden now it's here. It's
(25:31):
just kind of like, whoa, what in the world is
going on? And, and I think, and we talked about
this and to the point that you made on everything
you said, so good.
We made the point too of like, it's, it's not
just a technological advancement alone. There's like a, there's worship,
there's like, there's other things happening. You're not, you're not,
you don't stumble into the mark of the beast. You
don't like wake up one day and be like, oh
(25:52):
my gosh, I think I took the mark of the beast.
It's very, very specific and intentional.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Yes, exactly.
And when that uh person rises, who's gonna, yeah, be
the political victor, where are they supposed to be at?
Well, I mean, there's a lot of debate over this. Um,
it seems to me from the prophecies of Daniel, that
this person will to some degree or another be connected
to the kind of the, the center of the ancient
(26:21):
Roman Empire. And so I would imagine Europe. Um, but
it doesn't tell us specifically, it just tells us, uh,
there's an interesting prophecy in Daniel chapter 9.
That talks about um the city and the sanctuary being
destroyed uh in the future and that would have been
destroyed by the Romans. We, we already know that that
(26:44):
is the historical reality in 70 AD, uh, the Romans
destroyed the city and the sanctuary, and then it says,
and the people, um.
Or or the prince of the people who is to come, uh,
he will make a covenant with many. So we know
who the people are. The people of Rome, they're the
ones who destroyed the city. So this is a prince
(27:06):
or a leader that comes from that people. Now, of course,
on one level, the Romans are no longer here.
But on another level, the Romans never left, because so
much of the world is is just kind of an
ongoing extension of what Rome was, especially the, the western world. So,
(27:29):
so yeah, I, I think that that is the case. Uh, again,
it's debatable, people would disagree, uh, you know, some people
would disagree that such a thing is even gonna happen.
Some Christians would disagree with it. Um, but I think,
you know, just the plain reading of scripture.
Historically would lend us to draw that conclusion. Yes, and
(27:51):
uh there's so much going on in the Middle East
right now and and Europe right now that some people
are thinking this might be it. Yeah, and you don't
think I have found and Phil jump in any time
on this, but, uh, you know, the
Uh, somebody said that.
(28:12):
The wheels of justice turn slowly. And, you know, God
is the the end result on one level is God
is going to judge the world.
And the question is when, and we don't know, but
I think we can safely say we're headed in that direction,
(28:32):
but we don't know when we're gonna arrive there, and
there could be, there could be stops along the way,
you know, there, there are times when it looks like
Well, I mean, you know, Phil, have you ever thought
about what it would have been like to live in
Europe during the Second World War? I was gonna say that.
I mean, what, what would it have been like for Hitler,
the Third Reich, Mussolini, you know, it's like, uh, you
(28:54):
could think, OK, Hitler's the Antichrist, Mussolini is a false prophet.
It would be so easy to draw that conclusion.
I mean, you could draw that conclusion much easier than
you could point to any person today and say that
they might be it. So,
My point is we have to be careful because things
can look very much like this is it and yet
(29:16):
actually not be it. It's almost like there's these dress rehearsals.
I mean, people thought Nero was the guy. Well, obviously
he wasn't. He's dead for 2000 years, so, uh, but
somebody's gonna come along at some point. So. Yes, and Phil,
we want to hear what you have to say about
this on the second half of the program.
So, uh, we're going into a break right now, but
if you want to talk to Phil and, uh, talk
(29:38):
to Brian, you can when you call 888-564-6173. You can
ask about Israel or revival or anything else that is
on your heart. Uh, 888-564-6173 is the number to call,
and the pastors will answer your questions. 888-564-6173. We'll see
you in a few minutes.
(30:13):
Welcome back to the second half of Pastor's Perspective. I'm
Michael David in for Brian Perez. The number to call
is 888-564-6173. Uh, we have Pastor Brian Broderson and Pastor
Phil Metzger on the program today, and before we went
to the break, we were gonna hear from Pastor Phil.
On, uh, uh, Brian's question about Israel. Go ahead, uh,
(30:35):
Pastor Phil.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Well, we were talking about kind of like in times
and how, you know, some of these, you know, Europe
and Israel and um how World War II, you know,
like I gosh, I, I was thinking this thing like
and having spent a long time in Hungary.
I'm just thinking, man, if I'd been a, if I'd
been a Christian in Hungary in 1940, I would have
(30:57):
absolutely unequivocally believed that these are not just the last days,
like the last months, um, with everything happening, and so I, I,
I have a really, um, really great appreciation for the
fact that like,
We just don't know because everything just fits, so I
(31:17):
don't know, like it, it just fit, you know, the,
the scriptures fit, like you said, Hitler, what was happening
to the Jews. I mean, everything revolved around the very
constructs that we have and the framework of, of last days,
and I think dress rehearsal is a great way to
say it. And I also think that like the church afterwards,
you know, the church in Europe since then.
(31:38):
is far less literal in their understanding of the last days,
and it was before too, and part of that is
just because they kind of feel like, well, we a
branch of our group kind of went down that road
and look where they are, it's it can't be real,
and I, I, I think it scares, quite honestly scares
people there to take it too literal because it's kind
(31:59):
of devastating and so I, I, I have like a
healthy respect for the fact that gosh.
As Paul told us, like, I'm, I'm keeping my eyes
on looking for Jesus cause I, I, I thought that
would have been anti-Christ. It made perfect sense.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
You know, I I remember years ago I was, I
was preaching in one of the churches in Germany.
And I, I guess I can't remember if we were
scheduled to speak on in time stuff or not, but
somehow I, I was on that topic and, you know,
talk talking about the Antichrist and then, um,
I don't think I said it like publicly, but I
(32:36):
might have, but it, but I know somehow it got
out that the Antichrist would come out of Europe.
And, and I remember being confronted by some of the
people in the church afterwards, and they were like, no, no, no, no, no, no,
the Antichrist is coming out of America. America is the,
that's the great Babylon, you know, I'm like, oh they
(32:59):
have a bit of a different perspective over here.
That we do and and of course, you know, in
America we do have uh we do have our own
take on a lot of things. So,
Speaker 2 (33:09):
well, then there's a part that I, you know, cause
I kind of, you know, like, like you, like we
both kind of had this, it's like we're pretty clear
on like it's gotta be from Europe, but then the more,
the more that I've studied it too and obviously, you know,
living overseas like you did.
I've had this kind of thought of like, is it
possible though that like, you know, Rome was one empire
um in a list of empires previous, and is it
(33:31):
possible that it's, it's it's the signification is that it's a, it's,
it's another Rome.
Is it, is it only geographical? It sure seems to be,
so I can't move away from that. But is it
possible that it's just referring to the next kind of
global empire, um, and, uh,
you know,
Speaker 1 (33:48):
well, and then when you look at the, um, like,
especially Daniel 7, you know, when you look at Daniel
7 and you see the various, you know, Daniel has
this vision of these of these beasts.
And, and then, you know, it turns out with the interpretation,
given from the angel, that these are the empires, there's
the Babylonian, there's the um Medo Persian, there's the Greek,
(34:12):
and then there's, you know, finally the Roman, and in
in Daniel, it kind of, it it almost makes it
sound like at some point they they all kind of
Um, sort of mold into one. And so, and then
when you look at, say, um, Iran, for example, because
(34:33):
Iran was never conquered by Rome. The what we know
today is, you know, was ancient Persia. They were outside
of the Roman Empire. They had their own empire, and
they were battling the Romans all the time. So they
never were subjected to them, but of course, they had
their own empire that that preceded it.
So, but in Daniel's saying, it seems like it's, it
(34:55):
could be like sort of all of them joined together. So,
I mean, I think, Phil, you, I don't know if
you were this way or not, but I, you know,
there was a time in my life where I pretty
much had the scenario down and thought, you know, had
a lot of confidence that this is, this is what
(35:17):
it is, you know.
But you live long enough and you realize, OK, I
think we got a few of these bits wrong, and, uh,
I know we did because what we thought never did happen. So, yeah,
and
Speaker 2 (35:28):
live long enough and then, and like you've done reading
the Bible more and like being, you know, like being
like it sounds kind of cliche to say that, but
it's true. It's like you go, oh, I'm gonna let
this filter come off of my eyes. I'm just gonna
read and really study for what it is. And then
you say, oh, I appreciate that there's people who kind
of think a little different than I did.
Yeah, my, it was as crystal clear as could be
in my mind, and I was wrong. Yeah,
Speaker 1 (35:50):
and, and if anybody disagreed with you, you're like, what?
I mean, what's the matter with you? Can't you see that's,
it's obvious, plain as day, yeah, and now you're like,
I guess it wasn't as plain as we thought it was,
Speaker 2 (36:00):
right? Exactly.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Yeah, it wasn't that long ago. There was a pastor
saying that the rapture was gonna happen on the 23rd
or 24th of last month, September. Do you know how
many people have said that? And you know how many
people just sort of buy into it every time it gets,
every time it it recycles, people get buy into it.
And the answer is always the same. Jesus said it
2000 years ago. No one knows the day or the hour,
(36:25):
and these guys just prove over and over again.
That Jesus was actually right. I don't,
Speaker 2 (36:32):
I don't understand why you would even say it, and
he just hear me out, just pragmatically, just think about this.
If you're right, nobody cares cause we're with the Lord,
so we don't care that you were right. You can
only
Lose. Why would you do this? It makes no sense
at all. It's a lose game if you're right, we're like, oh,
who cares about what
Speaker 1 (36:52):
that
Speaker 2 (36:52):
guy
Speaker 1 (36:53):
said? Well,
Speaker 2 (36:54):
if you're wrong, boy, we will never forget your name.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Maybe the, the mentality is like, um, well.
You know, through my false prediction, I got a lot
of notoriety, so I'll just adjust, I'll just adjust the date.
And I'll get more people on board by talking about actually, sorry,
(37:18):
you guys, you know, I missed it by a year.
It's actually next year. And you know, there was a
guy in um back in the 80s. What was this?
Harold Camping? No, it wasn't Harold Camping. He, he, yeah,
he was fairly recent, but back in the 80s there
was a, there was a book that was written by
a guy and it was called 88 Reasons Why Jesus
Will Come in 1988 and '88 Reasons. I mean, that's
(37:41):
quite a few.
And he, I think he, he literally came out with
a book the next year, like 89 reasons, you know,
Edgar Wiset is that was his name, yeah, OK, OK, yes, yes, wow. And, uh, yeah,
and the Harold Camping did that in 2011, 2011, yeah,
(38:01):
I knew there was one that was, yes, I'm sure
there's been many people in between there, but, uh, who've
made predictions of when the rapture is gonna happen, but
Like you said, Pastor Phil, if anybody's ever right, it
won't matter to those of us who go. Well, you know,
in some scenarios, there, there have been people that have
actually
Set a date and then dressed in their white robes
(38:22):
and went up on a hilltop and waited and said, OK,
we're ready to go and
You know, then they came down from the hilltop and
had to resume normal life because
Speaker 2 (38:34):
And then in the like in the terrible extremes and
that was happened happened in San Diego, it's happened around,
you know, where it's like a like a suicide cult
where they like make that happen by, you know, I
mean it's.
It's some wild and crazy stuff
out there.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Yes, yes, it's very, that's a very serious thing. It's
not something to be taken lightly when people make predictions
like that, um, because like you said, Phil, the the
suicide cult, or people just lose their faith. They think, well,
I guess God lied to us because the prophet was
speaking from God and and I know there are some
that have, um.
Uh, you know, Phil, you know, I mean, kind of a,
(39:10):
a group.
Your age and and younger, uh, who they grew up on.
Uh, Bible prophecy, and that's all they heard, and they
heard over and over again about the rapture, and you're
gonna miss the rapture and you better make sure you're
not watching uh something on TV when the rapture comes
(39:33):
because you're going to be left behind, or, you know, what,
whatever the case might be. And, and unfortunately, sadly, that
affected some of them to the extent that today they
just think it's a big joke, you know.
And the Left Behind series was, was all part of that.
And so now they just mock it, they dismiss it,
they just, and I think that's that's sad, but it's
(39:56):
almost like the the people that were promoting it, um,
overly emphasizing it, they, they lent to it a little bit.
They lent to this state that these people have ended
up in, which is very unfortunate.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Yeah, I mean like you said, like people in kind
of my group and younger than me, we, we were like.
I mean, for me, you either became a skeptic or
you just said, hold on a second, something's not right here. Yeah.
And it's like you actually had to decide to disagree
with that in order to be able to just like
look at something for yourself. And that shouldn't be a
position we put our people in, you know, and that
(40:32):
came from overemphasis. It's just too much, too much. Every
year was a new like this event happened in the world,
and let me show you how it fits.
It's like when you're doing a puzzle and the piece
doesn't fit, but you cut it so that it fits.
And it just became so kind of, you know, it's
almost like we're gonna, yeah, we just, we created a
group of cynics because of that. And I don't think
(40:55):
cynicism is good. I don't want to be a cynic.
I believe Jesus is coming back. I'm excited about his, his,
his return. Um, I just, I don't think that there's
a lot of joy that comes from trying to like
fit everything.
Every single thing that happens out there, you know, every
bit of technology, everything Iran does, everything Israel does, everything
Russia does, everything Europe does, it, it ironically, the only
(41:17):
group left out of that is America, and we have
to see the irony of that, you know, we have
to see the irony that like, you know, when everything
happens around the world, it's the last days, but our
own thing doesn't speak to that, it seems.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Well, everybody sees it except us. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2 (41:35):
exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Uh, great answers, great answers to those questions. Appreciate that,
Pastor Brian and Pastor Phil. Uh, let's go to Cindy
who called us at 888-564-6173. Cindy, how can we help you?
Hi, pastors. My question is this talking about Daniel, who
was running the show when Nebuchadnezzar was out eating grass?
(42:02):
That's a great question.
Um, and was it, I mean, it says 7 times
in scriptures, so was that 7 years and was his
son in place? I don't, I, I'm just trying to
get a timeline if you guys know. Um, yeah, no,
I mean, I think you could just assume now remember
Daniel was one of the leading, um,
(42:27):
Uh, what's the word I wanna use, like administrators, yeah,
like he was one of the leading administrators in, in
the government. And so they have a they have a
governmental structure that is existing. So I would imagine that
and Nebuchadnezzar did have um
Uh, a son, uh, apparently there's a debate about this.
(42:48):
Funny enough, my wife and I were talking about it
this morning, um, and some scholars believe that Nebuchadnezzar did
not have a son, and, um, he had a daughter,
and so, um, Nabinitis, who ends up being the father
of Belshazzar, is actually like the son-in-law of Nebuchadnezzar instead
(43:10):
of the, the son.
And the queen mother who comes into Belshazzar is the
daughter of Nebuchadnezzar. Now this is just speculation. Um, we
were talking about it and we both said, I'm not
sure if these people are right about this, but
All, all that to say we don't know, but I
don't think it's, it's that complicated because there was obviously,
(43:35):
uh the structure existed and, um, you know, and they,
they took care of the king during that season, and
7 seasons will pass on you. So there's debate too
about what 7 seasons did that mean 7 years, or
did that mean, you know, 7 seasonal cycles, so it
ended up being
Maybe like 2 years or something, we don't know. Phil,
(43:56):
do you know, do you know anything about this?
Speaker 2 (43:58):
I, I, but I do, I, I wanted to look at, uh,
or read this verse. Daniel 4:36. I, to the point
that you made, Brian, I think it, it backs you
up on this. It says this at the same time
Nebuchadnezzar said this at the same time my reason returned
to me and the glory of my kingdom, my honor,
my splendor returned.
And then listen to the sentence. My counselors and nobles
resorted to me and I was restored to my kingdom.
(44:20):
It gives the impression that they were running things, and
then when he was of sane mind again, they handed
it back over to him. So, to the point you made,
there was administrators, it's a massive kingdom. Nobody was looking
to Nebuchadnezzar for the most part anyways, um, only when they,
and he would build golden statues and stuff like that,
but otherwise, I imagine they just kind of left them.
(44:42):
Left him alone, but it seems like noblemen and counselors
were the ones that restored him.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
All right, uh, but yeah, that is very interesting. Now, Cindy,
why do you ask that question, by the way?
Oh, we're just studying some of the prophets, and it
was something that came up in my Bible study yesterday, so,
very good. Well, did they answer your question?
Uh, yeah, sort of, sort of, I didn't, I didn't really,
(45:08):
I thought, I think, I thought that Belshazzar was his son.
I didn't realize that it was a no Bel Belshazzar
is his, is his Belshazzar is his grandson.
And so this is why when Belshazzar says to Daniel,
you know, when Daniel's brought in after the the writing
on the wall and all of that, but remember Belshazzar says, um,
(45:31):
I will make you a third ruler in the kingdom.
So why didn't he make him 2nd ruler in the kingdom?
Because Belshazzar was 2nd ruler in the kingdom. His father
Nabinidas was the king, but he was not in Babylon. He,
he had actually moved out of Babylon and was living
(45:51):
in um another place. And so Belshazzar would have been his,
his co-regent is the way they would describe it. So
he's ruling with his father and in the place of
his father.
Got it.
Fascinating. Thank you. OK, great. All right. Well, thank you, Cindy,
for calling us from Covina at 888-564-6173. And on yesterday's program,
(46:15):
we didn't talk about, uh, and I blame myself for this.
We didn't talk about yesterday being the anniversary.
Of the Israel conflict, uh, with, uh, Palestine and the
situation going on there and hopefully we're gonna have peace
there now, um, hopefully, um, well, let me just leave
it at that and let the pastors give their take
(46:37):
on what's going on there in Israel right now. Uh,
start with you, Pastor Brian. What do you say? Yeah, well,
like you said, Michael, it was um 2 years ago, um.
From yesterday that the uh Hamas, the terrorists, uh, invaded
into Israel and slaughtered those 1200 people and took 200+
(46:58):
people into a hostage situation and, and that, and then
as a result of that, this war in Gaza now
that has been going on for this time, and as,
as we all know, there's um uh somewhat of a
peace plan on the table that they're negotiating even as
we speak. So,
(47:18):
It would just be wonderful if if that all did
come to a conclusion, um, but who knows? We, we
don't know where it's gonna go. But yeah, very sad
and
On many, many levels, obviously the event itself was horrific, uh,
but what's just as equally tragic is to see the
(47:41):
way the world has responded. And you know, the irony
to think that the sympathies of so many people in
the West, and not just the West, but the West
should know better, are with the, the murderers. That is
so puzzling, you know, that somehow.
Uh, the people that were attacked and therefore retaliated, uh,
(48:03):
they're the bad guys in this, according to many, and
it's just, it just shows you how upside down and
backward the world is, you know,
Speaker 2 (48:11):
so I
spent some time yesterday listening to like kind of watching
interviews with some of the hostages who have been released.
And it's just, I mean, it's gut wrenching. It's like the,
it's it's if you thought like you had a worst nightmare,
this is worse. And um how, I mean, gosh.
(48:32):
Listen, this is when we all are like praying for
there to be peace in that part of the world
more than ever, just, uh, it's just, it's been so
brutal and so terrible.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
Yeah,
Speaker 2 (48:41):
heartbreaking.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
Yeah, so, um, you know, hopefully.
This will
This plan that that uh President Trump has put forth, uh,
hopefully there will be a positive response.
And this can end. Now the battle's been going on
(49:03):
for a long time between the peoples who are fighting
right now, all the way back to like Isaac and
Ishmael would I mean, well, Isaac and Ishmael, I think
is a little bit of a stretch, but
Speaker 2 (49:15):
a little too far back,
Speaker 1 (49:16):
a little too far back, yes, um, you know, Isaac
and Ishmael were brothers and, um, and then that some
would say Jacob and Esau and of course they were
brothers too.
Um, but I, I mean, you know, this is more,
this really would go back more to the, uh, probably
like the 7th century to, um, the time of Muhammad,
(49:39):
to the conquering of the whole region by Muhammad and
his armies, and, and then, you know, the colonization by
the Muslims of all of these various lands, uh, that
they feel that.
Basically, they have ownership, uh, and they would
(50:01):
I mean, they might want to try to take it
back further, but that that's as far as you can
really go with it. But, but it doesn't even go
back that far realistically because um those, you know, Muhammad
came and then his successors and then their successors and
then their successors and, you know, various powers ruled over
(50:23):
the region at different times in history and it went
out of the hand, in and out of the hands
of Muslim powers and
And what were called Christian powers and you know, it
was under the Ottomans in the most recent uh period
and then it came under the British, and it was
from the British that the nation uh that we know
(50:45):
today as Israel came out of what was then the
part of the British Empire. So that this Palestine, you know, was,
was under British control.
And there were Jews and Arabs living in the land.
There were no Palestinians other than, um, everybody who lived
there was identified as a Palestinian. So you can go
back and you can find reference to uh clearly references
(51:08):
to Jews who are called Palestinians because that's what the
British mandate referred to the, to the region as. Uh,
what we think of Palestinians today didn't really come about
until the 1960s through the efforts of Yasser Arafat.
And so, uh, but yeah, I mean, I think you
can trace it back very specifically to 1948 and to the,
(51:33):
the War of Independence, which wasn't really, uh, initially, it
it was it was kind of more of a of
a battle in some ways against uh the Jews fighting
against the British. Uh, it wasn't like a big war,
but the British finally just said, we don't need this, we're,
we're gonna get out of here.
And Israel was recognized by um.
(51:58):
The United States and some others as an independent nation
at that point. And then, that's when the whole Arab
world descended upon this newly formed little land and tried
to
Speaker 2 (52:13):
Well, and, and, and put into that time that that
the the British said, well, let's give land to both,
like they can just both have their own country and
the the Jews there were like, hey, we'll take it,
we'll take whatever we can get. And the Arab community
had this view.
Like, well, listen, we could probably take it all, let's
reject that. and let's not do that. And little did they,
(52:37):
you know, they've just underestimated the the the might of
the Jewish people at that time to fight for their
own land. So it could have been two states, you know,
as far back as 1948. Um, here we are still
fighting and, um, still arguing about, you know, kind of
things that, you know, yeah, this is unnecessary. I'm thinking
too back to what you said, Brian, about the the
(52:57):
British and their involvement.
There was decades of, you know, I mean this land
was not a great land. I mean, we we think
of it today and we're we're we're highly mistaken at
how it was malaria infested. It was gross. It was,
it took a lot of work. People were not Jews and, and,
and Arabs and Muslims were all living next to each
other and not fighting because everybody was just fighting to survive.
(53:21):
And uh, and then, then, you know, then this politicization
of it all became, you know, almost a world war there.
It's incredible.
Speaker 1 (53:29):
Now, I wanted to ask you though, because I've heard
uh Brian, because I've heard some Arab Muslims believe that
they are descendants of Ishmael. Now I don't know if
they really are or not.
Just like the the Israelis feel they're descendants of Isaac. Yeah, well,
the Israelis are for sure descendants of Isaac. It's not
a matter of feeling, it's a matter of fact. Um, I,
(53:50):
you know, the Arab world is, is very, it's a
very mixed world, and, um, the Arab people themselves are
not necessarily descended from Ishmael. Um, they're perhaps descended from
um Abraham, but not through Ishmael.
So, you know, Ishmael has his own descendants way back
(54:12):
at the time of Abraham, and then even Esau has
uh his descendants, what you would call the Edomites. There,
there's no record that really tracks Ishmael so much. There
there's more of a record that tracks uh Esau, but
that record kind of comes to a conclusion with Herod.
(54:32):
Herod is actually an Edomite king.
So, Herod is kind of the last of the descendants,
at least anyone who would be well known in history.
He's the last descendant of Esau. And so then, of course,
that's the first century, and then after that, you've got
all kinds of movements, but you have the Queen of
(54:53):
Sheba that she comes way back in the time of
Solomon and people identify Sheba as what we know as
Arabia today.
And so it's, it's very difficult to um
Identify just exactly who's who, especially in the Arab world.
(55:14):
And so, the Jews, it's not difficult because they are
one people who have literally stuck together for
The past 2000 years. All right, great answers, Pastor Bryant. Uh,
Pastor Phil, I, we're gonna have to stop now. I
would love to hear from you, but we'll have to
hear from you next time, OK? Uh, this is the
end of the program. Uh, Pastor Phil A Metzger from
(55:36):
Calvary Chapel, San Diego and Pastor Brian Broderson at Calvary
Chapel to.
So, thank you for being on the program. Remember the
gathering starts tonight at Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa. Free courses
you can learn about the Bible, learn about church history
from Pastor Brian Broderson. All the details at CCCM.com/ Wednesday.
I'm Michael David in for Brian Perez. See you next
(55:57):
time on Pastor's Perspective.
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