October 20, 2025 • 56 mins
Pastors' Perspective is a one-hour call-in program where listeners can call in and get answers to questions about the Bible, Christianity, family, and life. The program is live Monday through Friday from 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM Pacific. You can call 888-564-6173 to ask your questions.
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Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective for Monday, October 20th, 2025.
I'm your host, Brian Perez. Phone lines are open for
the next hour if you want to turn your Bible
obscurity into Bible perspicuity. Did I say that right?
I learned a new word yesterday, and I found it
in Justin Thomas's book called Calvary Chapel, It's Essence and Identity.
(00:41):
It's on page 24. I'm like, how do you say
that word? I challenged myself to learn it, and now
I'm using it here, and, uh, maybe we'll change the
name of the program to Pastor's perspicuity. Am I even
saying it right? I don't know. Is this your question? Yes, yes.
What does, yes, so.
now I can't say it, perspicuity is the um opposite
(01:04):
of obscurity. So, um, yeah, it was, it was just
a great word to see there and I just, so
it proves I'm reading the book, but anyway.
That book is back in stock at the chapel store
of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, by the way, if you
have not, uh, had a chance to check it out.
Short little book, about 100 pages, and, uh, we suggest you,
you get it. You can also buy it online at
(01:25):
Calvary Chapel.com. Justin Thomas, the, uh, president of the Calvary
Chapel Bible College in Bradenton, Florida, is on the program
with us, and he's the one who edited this book. Joshua,
good to see you. Justin, I mean, good to see you.
I'm everybody's
Speaker 2 (01:40):
name today. I just want to be clear, perspiguity is
not my word in that book. I, I do have
the fault of leaving it in as an editor, because
it does have history, but I wouldn't have put it
in the book if it were my chapter.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
That's right. Whose chapter was that? I guess I got
to find out. But uh. Yes, yes, we've had on
the program.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
He's smarter than all of us, so it's OK.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
When you use big $5 words like that, that's awesome.
Shar Broderson's here too. He's the lead pastor at Calvary
Chapel Costa Mesa. How are you, sir? I only know
small words. That's what I got. I'm fine.
But when you put a bunch of small words together,
they turn into big words. I like those. Yes, those
are awesome. So give us a call with your questions
at 888-564-6173. We would love to hear from you. If
(02:27):
you'd like to watch today's episode, we are live streaming
right now on Facebook, YouTube, and Instagram. We make the
program available as a podcast as well. Afterwards, you can
find it on Facebook, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. So
many ways that you can
Listen to the program, watch the program, send us your
questions online as well. But of course, our favorite way
(02:49):
to hear from you is on the telephone at 888-564-6173. Uh, Caesar,
we're gonna get to you in just a moment. First,
let me read at least one question that was sent
in online. Actually, I'm going to read two questions because
they are both similar in nature, and we are 11
days away from October 31st, if you know what I mean.
So countdown, yes, the countdown is on. Aurora in Omaha,
(03:13):
Nebraska wrote in, How do you explain heaven and hell,
demons and angels, and why we no longer celebrate Halloween
to a kid.
And then the other question likened to it, is from
Anthony in Brea, California. He asks, what are your thoughts
on participating in Halloween? Is it a sin to dress
my kids up and get candy at alternative events? So, Char,
(03:38):
we'll start with you. What do you say to Aurora
and Anthony?
He laughs. I do laugh. Yeah, I mean, I just
feel like I did not see where the last part
of this was going to go. I mean, like, it's
like heaven and hell, OK, demons and that we're not
celebrating Halloween, so.
Yeah, I mean, and how do you explain all of
this to a kid, um.
Yeah, I, I, I would love Aurora to call in
(04:01):
so we could actually have a bit more of a
detailed conversation about this. True, because it could be like
two different questions and shoot through the Halloween thing, yeah,
multiple questions too, like, in what context are we trying
to explain heaven and hell. I, I maybe I'll start here.
I do think that many times, you know, we kind
(04:21):
of um
We actually have a like a theology, a biblical theology
that's that's actually divorced from scripture. And what I mean
by that is, uh, in this example, is that we,
we often think that the Bible, its message is about
heaven and hell, when it is actually not, and I
don't believe in all of scripture you can actually find
(04:42):
those two words, uh, close together, uh, ever, but the
story of the Bible is actually about
Heaven and earth, right? And in the beginning, God created
the heavens and the earth, uh, he's creating this world
as a dwelling place for him and humanity, for his
cosmic project, right? To make the whole world his temple
(05:06):
garden like dwelling with humans.
And of course the story of scripture is that that
project because of the rebellion of humanity goes off the rails.
And then from Genesis 3 on out, God is on
mission to restore his original project uh of heaven and
earth being one of the dwelling place of God being
(05:26):
with human beings and this, you know, beautiful partnership project
that God has, so that the end of the story
and revelation is, you know,
Um, and then I saw a new heaven and a
new earth for the first heaven, the first earth had
passed away, right? It's these bookings on the story of,
you know, God's original intent, how that went off the rails,
(05:47):
and how God is, you know, bringing it to a
close that will result in a new beginning. And so,
you know, I think if I was having this conversation
with my kids, I would want clarity on that. And
then I think once we understand that, that heaven
Uh, is essentially what God desires. It's his, the place
where God rules, and in the end, God wants to
(06:09):
bring that to earth, and in a sense, make all
of earth heaven like. This is part of the Lord's prayer, right?
On earth as it is in heaven. So, if we
understand that, then we can begin to understand what hell is.
And I, I think about, uh, even CS Lewis, I
think he was the one that coined this phrase, hell
is a mercy.
(06:30):
And hell is the place where God will lock up
all evil and destruction, the devil, and all of his
minions forever and ever, that all of that will be
removed from God's good creation that he is renewing. And so,
you know, first and foremost, hell is not this.
(06:53):
You know, scary, awful place that God threatens to send us.
It is God's judgment on everything that is evil and
destructive to his good creation. And I think it's really
important for us to understand that those are the categories,
and then we can understand how some people will actually
(07:14):
end up in that place, because they have aligned themselves
with evil, they have aligned themselves against God and against his.
Goodness. And CS Lewis, you know, he had, again, another
way of putting this, uh, he would say that hell is,
you know, nobody is sent to hell, but people actually
choose it, and he had this phrase, hell is locked
(07:34):
from the inside, right? It is, it is actually something
that human beings are determined to set themselves against God.
Those are the people that will in the end will
join the devil and his angels in, you know, the
place called hell. So,
I've talked quite a bit. I don't know, Justin, you
want to talk about angels and then answer the question about,
(07:54):
you know, why or why you shouldn't celebrate Halloween.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Uh, no, I think that's good because, uh, you know,
if I could just add one more thing.
You know, trying to speak to children and explain these
things is actually something CS Les did quite a lot,
you know, the the last battle, his final book in
the Chronicles of Narnia series really does a good job
of explaining these things, not in the doctrinal sense, but,
(08:23):
but just in the significant sense and in a way
that kids can understand. So, so just setting that out there.
When it comes to angels and demons, um, I think
the first thing to recognize is that kids intrinsically are
open to a world they cannot see.
Ah, that, that's, that's how we all start, you know, with,
(08:44):
with adulthood in the modern world can come some form
of disenchantment, right? Where, where everything that was magic or
mystical or mythical, now we just have the real hard facts,
but kids aren't that way at all.
Which is why things like Santa Claus and the Easter
Bunny are so naturally received by kids. Now the problem is,
(09:05):
even as I say this, I know there's people thinking, yeah,
but you can't put those in the same category because
the Easter Bunny isn't real and angels and demons are.
That's not my point. My point is that
Explaining to the uh to your children that there are
things that they've never encountered in face to face that
exist and that there are things that aren't even observable
(09:28):
to the human eye, that that's a natural starting point.
So how do I explain angels and demons to my
kid has nothing to do with my kid's not going
to believe me because it's supernatural. That's not where the
issue lies. The issue is with helping them recognize that
there are
Forces that are aligned with God and that there are
(09:48):
forces opposed to God, uh, and, and you can do
this directly from the biblical stories. Genesis 3 is a
great place to, to illustrate, uh, demonic influence in our
life and, and the resistance there, as well as the
temptations of Jesus in the Gospels. Of course, the Bible
(10:09):
is full of angelic appearances as well and
And I guess what I would suggest is that.
Um, what's what children need most is stories that concretely
exemplify doctrine.
This is the best way to do this, and so the,
the stories of scripture, the, the best place to begin
(10:31):
with this, and the Chronicles of Narnia is, is a
close second, but I think that's really the thing you,
you want to convey. Now, I have to fill in
a lot of blanks to tie this to the concerns
about Halloween, you know, um, and so what I would
guess is that, OK, the problem with Halloween is that
there is this kind of fake.
(10:52):
Pretend celebratory, mock version of what are actually real things
that should be taken seriously, you know, and this is
a common concern in Christian families, portrayals of the occult
are dangerous because they're too close to the occult, things
like this. Uh, and so all, all I would say is,
you know, if you're trying to connect the dots and
(11:14):
you're doing it from that place of conviction, um, then,
then you just need to say that.
Uh, you know, our concerns about Halloween are is that
they align and celebrate with things that are not godly,
that are not aligned with his purposes. Now,
Does that mean that Halloween is sinful? This is the
(11:35):
other question question we got. In fact, I believe the
questioner went further and suggested that maybe even alternatives to
Halloween are still somehow tainted, that, that a harvest party is,
is harvest in name only, uh, which, you know, I,
I pastored in Seattle. I always snickered when churches threw
harvest parties because they've never been in an orchard in
their lives. Um, but, uh, but the concern, you know,
(11:59):
I think, uh, is.
is a misunderstanding of what culture is and does.
And so, uh, one of the things that culture does,
and we do this all the time is we appropriate.
We take old things and we make them new things.
Not always do those new things retain the, the purposes,
the intentions, the habits, the significance of the old things,
(12:23):
you know, um, and so, so I'm not so sure
it's so simple to say Halloween has this origin story
and now it's celebrated this way, and Christmas is a
good illustration, right? There were all sorts of competitive.
And older traditions.
Uh, around December before Christians launched Christianity, and what it
(12:47):
really was was countercultural. They tried to take holidays that
celebrate one thing and said, look, there's only one thing
worth celebrating in all of life, and this is God's
great plan in Jesus Christ. We're going to celebrate that
and did they appropriate? Did they take some imagery from
other places? I'm not sure. History disagrees, cultural, uh, you know,
(13:09):
warriors fight about these things, but it doesn't matter.
Because that's something Christians do all the time, that's what
we did with the cross. The cross is not a
Christian symbol, it's a symbol of Roman oppression and and
a threat against the, uh, you know, resistance.
The fact that we redeemed that is literally what Christianity
(13:30):
is all about, that that we have a God who's
so great that he can take old symbols and give
them new and redemptive meaning. So I don't think we
should be afraid of that. That's not enough to answer
the question, um, but, but all I would say is,
is that, uh, yes, do we want things to convey
alignment with our belief system? Absolutely.
(13:52):
But we also always do that with this, with this
reality that we can redeem, that we don't just reject
or accept, that we can actually see something transformed to
convey a new message and one that actually makes the
gospel clear and relevant to our times. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Anything else? No, I, I appreciate that. I was thinking
the same thing, just the way that we engage with culture, receive, redeem, reject.
These are the options that we, we have kind of
in our tool belt. I think too for, you know,
in a.
Uh maybe coming from like a more kind of fundamentalist view, where,
you know, we kind of see, like you were saying earlier, Justin,
(14:32):
where we just kind of see, there are kind of
two categories. There is, you know, the, the secular and
there is the sacred, and so we just reject everything
we assume is secular. I love what you're saying there,
like even just thinking about the cross and the symbol
that this is, there is this redemption of that. And
so even thinking about, you know, maybe even like a
(14:52):
harvest party, like,
Like, is that a redemption of this? And I think
about like, you know, you lived in Seattle, I lived
in the Bay Area for many years doing ministry there,
and I would often just think about like what's happening
on this day of the week, right? Like, my role
in being a pastor in a local community is to
(15:13):
represent Christ to my city in the way that I live,
in what I'm teaching our congregation, where I'm directing all
of our efforts, right? And
A big part of a Christian presence is to reach
individuals with the gospel, and we do that through hospitality,
we do do that through service, we do that through,
you know, engaging in in conversation, you know. And so,
(15:35):
you think about you have an evening where everyone in
your neighborhood is coming to your door.
Right? And there could be all sorts of rumors about
what kind of person you are, you know, and oh, well,
you know, they already know that you're the pastor and
they've got their assumptions about what Christianity is and about
who you are and your family and what you guys
do behind closed doors and all these things.
(15:56):
And I just think, man, what an incredible opportunity to
be hospitable and to actually go above and beyond and
surprise those neighbors in my receptivity of them, in my
engaging them in their celebration of this day and my
hospitality towards them. It's like these are actually opportunities to
(16:16):
be involved and present and to be a witness to
our neighbors. Now, maybe not in the way that we're,
they're coming to our door and, you know, we're giving
a tract or we're giving gospel message to.
Every individual, but that we actually are, you know, planting
seeds that will eventually lead to those deeper conversations and
deeper connections. And I think
(16:37):
To me, this is just another opportunity as a Christian
who lives in a local neighborhood where there's many people
far from God to represent Christ, to engage with them,
and hopefully make connections that will lead to deeper conversations
about the meaning of the world and about the hope
that we have in Jesus. So, I would love for
Christians to think more in terms of that than
(17:00):
You know, just how do we safeguard ourselves. Jordan and
I were just having a conversation about this, like, what's
the difference between Jesus and the Pharisees? The Pharisees are
obsessed with moral purity, and so they keep themselves from
those they think that are far from God, right?
And Jesus actually is morally pure, and yet he goes
after those people that are far from God, and he
(17:22):
denounces them for their hypocrisy, right? They should be doing
the very thing that he's doing. And I think for
some reason the church seems to be overly concerned with
our moral purity and not the present need of salvation
for the world, uh, needs seems to be concerned with
our moral purity.
And not how, you know, we serve others, and I,
(17:45):
I just think that we're missing, you know, this key
aspect of our witness and the gospel, and, and I
think that this is where we should be directed back
towards what Jesus did. He never compromised his own moral
purity and and morals, and yet he was with these people.
It says that they loved him. We were drawn to.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
It's about the direction of influence, right? The direction of
influence was Jesus was changing lives and yet he remained unchanged,
and that's what salt and light does. Darkness can't get
rid of light, but light does remove darkness. Uh, salt
isn't threatened by corruption.
Uh, and when it is, it's no longer a salt, right?
That's salt that's lost its savor, but, but salt can
(18:25):
actually stay corruption, um, and so I think that's right,
and maybe it's not non-participation or handout the gospel tract.
Maybe you wrap that tract around the biggest king size
candy bar available that night, right? And you tie it
with uh, you know, with generosity and joy.
Um, but you also use that as an opportunity. I think,
(18:46):
I think that's great. Uh, now, is it one and done? No, and,
and Char is right here. You don't want to reduce
it down to be like, Good, I've been my witness
on Halloween because I handed out 150 tracks. Um, but
a track like anything else is just a moment in
a story, and, uh, you know, an invitation into our homes,
an invitation to church, an invitation to know Jesus Christ.
(19:07):
They're all potential.
Thresholds, moving the story forward and I think that's great,
but I, I do wish, I think if, if you're
gonna open your door and you're gonna hand something out,
don't be like the lady who's concerned for people's teeth
and gives apples instead, you know, uh, instead, give, give
the track, give them a God bless you, you know,
do any of those things, but also give them more
(19:29):
than anyone else does, you know, this, this is what
Jesus was, he was impossible to put in a box.
The people who knew that he loved them, they said,
How could you love me, right? They couldn't figure out
how someone like this could respond like that. And unfortunately,
I think too often the American church just isn't surprising
enough for our culture. We do exactly what the script
(19:50):
says we're going to do and what the culture expects
us to do, and, and I just don't see that
in Jesus.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah,
yeah, I do think too underneath this question some of
the other questions we get around Halloween and
You know, we get a lot of questions around uh
the occult Ouija board still and things like this. You know, I,
I do think that
To me, I feel like there is a a bit
of an obsession right now in the church about um
(20:17):
Demons and, you know, impure spirits and these things, almost
like attaching to us. And what, you know, we just,
we've had a number of calls like this uh on
the show, but, you know, I think when I read
the pages of scripture and primarily the New Testament, right?
Like we can find, obviously there are, you know, clear
(20:37):
passages that are refusing uh the Jewish people from engaging
in these occultic practices, the way of the pagans, all this.
But in the New Testament, we don't ever see the
language being used because you might be infected by these, or, like,
the language is never that the kingdom of darkness is
threatening the kingdom of light, and I love, you were just,
(20:57):
what triggered this is when you're talking about salt and light,
and I think we need to flip the script on
this a bit for
The church, in our perspective, I think, on the world
out there. Remember Jesus said, greater is he who is
in you than he who is in the world. And
I think sometimes we're looking at the world, we're thinking
about Halloween, like, oh well, this is the devil's night,
(21:20):
and he just has his people everywhere, and they're trying
to advance the kingdom of darkness. And so this is,
you know, almost like a uh
A neo Passover. We close our doors, we lock everything up,
and we hide from the spirit of Halloween to pass,
you know, and then once it does, then we can
come out and we're safe again, you know.
Uh, but just like this idea that if we engage
(21:41):
in these things somehow we're gonna be affected by them,
we're gonna be drawn into these pagan practices and these things.
And I think this was not the perspective of the
early church. They saw that Jesus had already triumphed, that
demons and, you know, demonic spirits just like, quailed at
his word, like were like fleeing at his presence, and
(22:03):
he was marching.
Forward in victory and they were going in his wake.
And I really think that we need to recapture that
sense of, you know, what Colossian says, right? That Christ
has actually already overcome. He has disarmed the powers that
were against us. He nailed them to the cross, he
triumphed over them. And I think, especially when it comes
(22:24):
to the spiritual realm, we need to see ourselves as
we are those who actually have already overcome through the
victory that is in
Jesus, rather than this, you know, fleeing and being afraid
of what's coming after us, and what might attach to us,
we actually already have victory and full protection and and
through Jesus Christ. And I, that's what we see, right?
(22:45):
Jesus is not afraid of the demons, he touches them,
and the demon is cleansed, it's removed. They have no
power before him.
Yeah. Very good. Anthony and Aurora, thank you so much
for sending in your questions. Aurora on the pastor's perspective
Facebook page using messenger, and Anthony sent his in on
(23:07):
the Kwave.com pastor's perspective page, or maybe he just scanned
the QR code on Facebook, YouTube and Instagram down there
on the bottom. And you scan that code, it'll take
you right to the pastor's perspective page where you can
fill out the form and send in your questions. So
now you know,
October 31st, you're gonna hand out the biggest candy bars
in the neighborhood and you're gonna say God bless you
(23:29):
to little kids dressed up as demons. I mean, I mean,
think about that, think about that.
All right, 888-564-6173 to Torrent we go, Torrents of living water.
Here is Cesar, who is listening to us on the
Kwave app. What's up, Cesar?
Hello, everyone. Thank you for taking my call. Um, so,
(23:49):
on a lighter topic. Um, my wife and I have
been together for almost 28 years. We were not blessed
with kids, so we never got to raise a child
or raise anything. But as uh a week ago, we
got an 11 year old puppy.
And the reason why I'm calling is because you want
to know if it's OK to take your puppy trick
(24:09):
or treating? Is that what your question is? Yeah. So the,
for the, the 1st 15 years that I've been following Jesus,
the first thing that I do in the morning is
read my Bible, right? Spend time with the Lord, but
now it's get up, take the puppy out to pee.
Mhm, I, I really, it really has been affecting my
(24:29):
devotional time with with the Lord in the mornings, my
quality time, to the point where I feel, I feel bad,
I feel guilty because I'm not spending the same amount
of time that I've been spending, you know, for so
many years.
And so just curious of like, you know, uh, is this, uh,
what do you guys think? What, how does God view
us when we're interrupted in that way, you know, that's
(24:49):
my question. I don't think we've ever gotten this question
before on pastor's perspective. I could be wrong. People sometimes
call and, oh, I've got a new job. I can't
go to church on Sundays, but, uh, Caesar's calling and saying,
I got a new puppy. I'm not spending time with
the Lord. Justin, what do you say to Caesar?
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, you know, it's funny, Caesar, when you were talking,
you know, I was like, OK, we're, we're talking about pets,
but he's referenced never having kids, where is this gonna go?
But this is actually a pretty good analogy that any
parent can relate to. Um, the, the truth is, when,
when kids into your life, you know, it's, it's not
just first thing in the morning that's interrupted, it's life
as we know it, you know, and I think the
(25:26):
same thing is true with a puppy. I've got a,
a 2 year old puppy, I can remember what those
first months were like.
Um, what I would say is actually a broader principle
that I've learned in life, um, and that's it, habits
are contextual, and, and all I mean when I say
contextual is that we design them to fit particular circumstances,
(25:47):
and when circumstances change, we have to adjust our habits.
And if I can just illustrate from my marriage with
my wife.
Um, we have 5 kids, but we run our family like,
like a naval officer with his ship, you know. So
since my kids were born, their bedtime has been 7 o'clock,
and when they were too old for a 7 o'clock bedtime,
(26:08):
it was still quiet time, and they were in their
rooms by 7 o'clock. What this means is, me and
my wife have had every single evening together that we
weren't at church our entire marriage, and that was intentional.
This is us time, it's not interrupted by other things,
and we trained our kids to fit in those spaces.
When COVID hit,
We discovered that we were so worn out under all
(26:28):
of the stress that by the time 7 o'clock rolled around,
it was all we could do to just browse something
on television or go to bed. We weren't actually really
connecting and our marriage wasn't working the same way, tensions
were getting high, miscommunications, all of these things. And we
had to go, OK, this isn't working. We still need
the habit.
But we need a way that we can do it
(26:49):
now and so we started to take midday walks together
uh every day uh and that became our touch point
for the day. And then once COVID was gone, we
switched it back. I think this is generally how habits are,
because the truth is, Cesar, you, your wife, you guys
aren't in control.
And if it's not this circumstance, it will be another,
(27:09):
and if you had had kids or if we have
another COVID, you know, we, we, we encounter things like
this all the time and so what I would say
is um that uh that your awareness of this right
now is a gift.
It's an opportunity to go, OK, Lord, how can I
change things up to make this work? And no, God
(27:30):
is not angry at you because the puppy's bladder demands
attention first thing in the morning. This is, this is
not a problem in terms of you giving your fruit
first fruits to the Lord or those types of things,
but all of us agree, would agree, Brian and Chahar
and myself, this time for the Lord is with the
Lord is important to you, and having it on a
regular rhythm like daily is something you have to make
(27:51):
work and
You might go into the hospital with a gallbladder, you know,
or an appendix burst or something, and maybe that rhythm's
gonna be broken for a week, but a puppy is
not a vacation. It, it's not gonna happen for a week.
And so, so I would just really encourage you to think, OK,
what are the different ways uh that I could go
about this? And you know, there are ways that you
(28:12):
can adapt your practice with the puppy. Make it a
full blown walk, put your headphones in and listen to
the Bible, uh, read to you.
That's actually a significantly valuable practice, one that I often
encourage people to because the Bible was meant to be heard, um, or,
you know, look for another time, or, and this is
Martin Luther's approach, uh, get up earlier. Get up before
(28:34):
your puppy, find that space where it will be uninterrupted. Uh,
this is what Martin Luther did when things got crazy
during the Reformation. He started getting up at 4 a.m.
because he knew he needed this time with the Lord
and he didn't have any other option.
I think all of those are good, but, but so
is adaptability, because the truth is the Lord isn't interested
(28:54):
in your schedule.
When things happen and if you hit them consistently and
if every day you get to tick off that box
and tick it off first, the Lord doesn't care about that.
He just wants to be in a relationship with you.
And just, just like, you know, when your wife's work
schedule changes, uh, or, or when other things shift in
life and you pivot for the sake of that relationship,
(29:14):
that's what's required here.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Chart 30 seconds.
I don't think I could say anything in 30 seconds. OK,
we'll come back afterwards and talk about it. My advice
is just get a cat. Just train the cat how
to use the litter box and then you don't have
to worry about, uh, you know, taking your dog out. No,
I'm joking. Um, OK, so we'll continue talking about this
and whatever you guys want to talk about, we're going
to be in the studio for another 30 minutes. 888-564-617.
(29:39):
3 is the number to call. I'm Brian Perez. The
program is called Pastor's Perspective. We've got Pastors Char Broderson
and Justin Thomas here to answer the questions you have
about the Bible, the Christian faith, just about anything that's
on your mind, your puppy, your, uh, kids, and Halloween time.
Give us a call 888-564-6173.
(30:18):
888-564-6173 is the number to call us today on Pastor's Perspective.
We would love to hear from you, so grab an
open line. We've got Pastors Char Roderson and Justin Thomas
answering your questions. 888-564-6173. We were speaking with Caesar, who, uh,
just got a new puppy, and he's wondering, uh, he's wondering,
(30:41):
this is interfering with my quiet time, and we heard, uh,
Justin's response, and now let's hear from Char.
I was just thinking about.
Yeah, I mean, very similar to what Justin was saying,
but
you know, maybe this moment is a gift actually, um,
to engage with God in just a totally different way,
(31:01):
you know, and I think about, um,
Jordan, who I work with and kind of my counterpart
in ministry, we often talk about, uh, you know, spiritual
tools that we have, you know, that, um, vehicles we
have through scripture to engage with God, you know, prayer, community, um,
of course, the reading of scripture, the preaching of God's word,
(31:24):
always in in which we engage with the spirit of
God where we worship God, we hear from God, we
speak back to God.
And, you know, sometimes I think we do, you know,
all of us, right, we can get kind of stuck
in a rut, right? Just a, a habit that is
no longer really maybe um challenging us, right? And we
(31:45):
do this with music, we do this with exercise. I mean,
this happens right in in all of our, we hit
a wall, right?
And maybe even that's not what's happening in this case,
but maybe this moment is a gift to begin um
engaging with God in a way uh that it's just
been untapped and uncultivated in the past. And I think
(32:05):
about there was a season in my life where, you know,
having kids, um, we begin to go on family walks
and we would do these regularly.
And I realized on these family walks that I had
kind of lost my sense of wonder. And uh we
lived in a really just beautiful neighborhood that just everyone
(32:28):
had these gardens, but, you know, vegetable gardens and fruit
trees and, you know, the giant redwoods in our neighborhood
and and we would often walk through this little park
by our house as well. And I remember
Like I was looking at stuff and engaging with it
like I was a toddler, you know, it's like, whoa,
like this, look at this color. And it was like
(32:50):
blowing my mind in a way that was restoring wonder
and worship.
In a way that I, I think I had become
so consumed with learning and theology at the time. I
spent so much time in those early years just studying
and I was studying by myself. I was the only
one on staff and so
(33:10):
You know, I guess what I'm expressing was like a
very sterile kind of environment, and maybe a sterile spirituality,
very something very uh static. And what was introduced to
me through these family walks was a new, uh, dynamic
with engaging with God and worshiping Him. And I think about, OK,
here's a puppy that is driving you outside where the
(33:32):
heavens declare the glory of God, especially early in the
morning to see some of the sunrises, yeah, I mean, so.
Yeah, there's like, there's these crazy uh green parrots that
like flock all over Orange County, and they're so loud
and just wild, and there's like this whole lore behind
how they got here and everything, but literally, there's thousands
(33:53):
of them.
And they never come in Santa Ana. They're in Orange,
they're in Costa Mesa, they're in all these places and
the other morning I was out very early in the
morning and there was a flock of these green parrots
that flew over and they were just squawking their heads
off and I just thought, there they are, you know,
like a kid again. I was just like, yes, they
(34:13):
come here too, you know.
Um, but just like this, like, you know, parrots just
crack me up too. They're just so obnoxious and loud, like,
it's just got to be part of God's sense of humor,
you know, these crazy birds. And anyway, so all this
to say, like, I wonder if maybe this is an
invitation from the Lord to to like lay aside this
(34:35):
not as, you know, like, yeah, you are now, you know,
Bible reading and study and quiet time with God is
no longer important, but maybe there's a new dynamic in
which to engage with the Lord that he's inviting you into,
and this puppy is just simply an introduction to that.
Maybe you'll find a depth to your relationship with God
that you've never discovered before. Yeah, in my life too,
(34:56):
there was a season where actually a listening prayer did
this in my life, uh,
where I had never practiced this ever before. I am
a talker, and I like to process things. And I
remember there was a season where I had no words
and I just began to just sit quietly before the Lord.
And he met me in a way that I had
(35:17):
truly never experienced to that point, uh, just to affirm
me and just, I think to just like
Bathe me in his love, you know, just kind of
all the things that I was feeling and carrying. God
just begin to remove all of that by just affirming
me in his love. And so I think, you know,
kind of back to Justin's point, these things that we
(35:38):
see kind of as these interruptions actually might be invitations, uh,
to God's presence and to engaging with the Lord in
a way that we never have before.
We always talk about, yeah, and don't look at things
as interruptions, but as opportunities, like when it comes to people. So,
you know, that person's not an interruption to your day,
it's an opportunity to minister to them or whatever the
(35:59):
case might be. So yeah, Caesar, this could be just
a new way to engage with the Lord. Maybe you
do it at a different time. I think there's also
so much emphasis that we hear all the time about
that importance of waking up at 5 in the morning.
And or whatever time and making that the first thing
you do where it almost gets people, uh, it just
becomes this rut and and you wonder, I remember when
(36:23):
I used to do the early morning shift here on K-wave,
and when I first got that shift having to start
at 5:30 in the morning, it's like, oh my gosh,
that means I'm gonna have to get up at what time?
And I couldn't always do it. And there was just
the sense of
Uh, you know, condemnation almost like you're not reading your
Bible in the morning, you're not a good Christian. And
then I heard one of the pastors here on Kwave.
(36:44):
He was just talking about that. He said, you know what,
if you have to read during your lunch hour, do
it then. I was like, wow, that was amazing. Yeah,
and there is a bit of this like modernity where
we think that this is just the way that it's
always been. Justin, you were uh talking earlier about, you know,
traditionally the scriptures were heard, you know.
(37:05):
Um, orally, right? Like, people didn't have their scrolls that
they carried around with them, you know, or a pocket
sized version of the scrolls that they carried with them. Now,
there might be certain statements that they would have, you know,
little passages of scripture that they would carry, but for
the most part, you went to synagogue, and you heard
the scriptures taught on one day of the week.
(37:27):
And the rest of the week, you carried these, you know,
things that you had heard with you, and you recited
these prayers, right? Like the shama, of course, Jesus gives
us the Lord's prayer. There are these things that we
are given to recite to keep us in touch with God,
but I do think that this idea of like,
You know, daily quiet time has almost become a legalistic, like,
(37:51):
if you don't do this daily, first thing, first fruits
in the morning, you are not a good Christian. And
I think we just need to pump the brakes on
ideas like this and just look back at the history
of the world and say, OK, were people that didn't
have the scriptures back then less spiritual than we are today?
Were they less Christian than we are today?
(38:11):
And yet, the answer is no. So how did they
engage with the scriptures and spiritual maturity and the work
of sanctification with the limited amount of scripture exposure that
they had, you know, what were the habits that they
formed in their life? And we could talk about catechism
and all the things, right, that the churches used throughout
history to learn these things. We could talk about hymnology
(38:34):
and how that came about, right? It was bar tunes
that they used these melodies to teach people doctrine.
So like there's all of these mechanisms and vehicles that
people use to engage with scripture and to engage in
worship of God. And I think unfortunately, we've scaled all
of that down to kind of one, you know, tool.
(38:55):
And so I do think it's good for us to
have conversations like this, like, you know, actually there's many
tools and many wonderful ways that we can engage with
the Lord. So Justin.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Yeah, um, you know, in Colossians it says that the
word of Christ should dwell dwell in us richly. That's
an actual command, that's the actual exhortation, but the, the
practicality of what that looks like in any given time
or place, you know, differs, and I think it might
be helpful here to talk about the difference between habits
and habits. Habits is an older word that's broader than
(39:31):
our modern idea of habits. So a farmer has a habitist.
He has a way of being, but it's more than
just he gets up at 6 a.m. and feeds the cows.
It it includes the fact that if the cow is sick,
he knows exactly what it needs, and he's gonna be
up all night with the cow cause he knows what
it takes. Habituts is deeper because it's the type of
(39:53):
person you are and it's reflected in your behavior.
But the behavior is flowing outward, and this is, this
is how Jesus talked about these things. I can't imagine
anything worse than saying, if you want to please the Lord,
then just read your Bible every morning. That goes against
the grain of everything Jesus taught about fruit and the
(40:14):
way that trees grow and and these types of things. Now,
we all hit dry seasons where sometimes
The rhythm is helpful because what we're really doing is
white knuckling this part, and we're just holding on for
dear life and it doesn't feel like it's working, but
I've got to do something that's not what I'm necessarily
speaking against, um, but, but actions without right motives don't work, and,
(40:38):
and Jesus is clear on this. He, he doesn't, you know,
he doesn't care if you
Uh, read your devotions like some of my Bible college
peers right in front of the girls' dorm every morning
because you want to be known as the guy who
reads his Bible every morning, right? Jesus is clear that,
Speaker 1 (40:56):
that doesn't happen. tell me that does not happen. That's
Speaker 2 (40:59):
real. Oh sorry, Brian, that's, that's probably just my critical heart. I,
I don't know the hearts of these young lustful men, uh, but,
but my guess is this is what was going on, uh, but.
But all of that to say that there's so much
more involved in the value of a habit than rhythm.
Or consistency or these types of things. And so, so,
(41:20):
you know, this idea of of a habitist, and I'll
just illustrate this last way.
I don't know what's gonna happen in my life career wise.
I love leading the Bible school right now. I loved
being a pastor before this, but I, I can tell
you what, wherever I am, there's certain things that I'm
just going to not be able not to do.
I might get paid for those things. I might not,
(41:41):
but I could just pull into a town for no
reason at all, and I'm going to find a way
to study God's word and share it with other people.
That that's, that's deeper than habit. It's not just, well,
I study the Bible because I have to teach on
Sunday mornings. It's never been that. It's, it's an overflow
of something deeper than that that's both what God has
gifted me to and called me to and and the
(42:03):
situations that he's placed me in.
Um, and so, you know, this, this idea of, of habits,
even with Jesus, he, he doesn't say I must get
away in the sense of if I don't do this,
God will be mad at me. He says, I need this. It's,
it's the must of need. I am dependent upon this
time with the Lord, uh, and, and so, so it's
(42:24):
not about how.
How can change, how can be interrupted, how can be
put on hold, um, but it's about this deeper thing of,
of relationship, you know, and looking for ways to enhance
that relationship, uh, and continue it.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Sure, yeah, yeah, I know we're kind of probably belaboring
the point on this one, but I do just one
last thing, um, you know, will God be mad at me?
And I would say,
You know, I think if that's the reason that we're
doing these things too, there's like a a deeper disconnect
um with the character of God.
(43:05):
Right, like
You know, like, if, um,
Yeah, like if my kid said to me, like, if
I'm like, hey, I I wanna spend some time with you,
you know, and then they said, OK, well, I'm busy today,
are you mad at me? Hm.
Are you mad at me because I can't, you know,
because I'm busy, are you mad at me?
I think, uh, no, I'm not mad at you, like
(43:27):
I understand that you're busy, you know, like, and and
of course,
There can be more to this conversation, but I think
just first and foremost, there is just a a um
A slant on the character of God when that's our assumption.
If I don't do this ritual every single day, well,
(43:48):
then God will get mad at me. That's actually more
akin to the pagans of the, uh, you know, the
the gods of the pagans of the Old Testament, you know, oh,
we have to give our rain sacrifice every single day,
or by all will be mad at us, and he
will not favor us with His grace. But that is
not the God and Savior of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(44:09):
He is the Father who already knows, right, what we
need and
Um, he's very near to us. He knows our concerns.
He remembers as the Psalm says that we are dust,
that we're frail, he knows that we get busy in
these things. And so, you know, of course, we're not
trying to discourage, you know, a commitment to the scriptures
(44:29):
or reading or these habits for life, but I think,
and the motivation behind these things, like Justin was saying,
is so very important.
And that we're actually clear that the reason we engage
with scripture is not so that God won't be mad
at us, but so that we can know this God
of love in a transformative way. And I think if
(44:49):
we're not experiencing that through our Bible reading, then we
probably need to do a little digging on, you know, man,
what's going on underneath.
all of this, right? That I am assuming that this
is how God feels towards me and probably some work about,
you know, our worth to God, His love, does it
actually reach me? Is it actually for me? Does he
(45:12):
forgive my sin? Am I actually seen as his beloved?
These are questions that we really need to kind of
unearth uh in in a moment like this.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yeah, sure, I just think that uh pointing to the
feasts and and the practices of Israel versus their neighbor
is a golden illustration, you know, um the, the worship
of Baal, the times that they observed were before the harvest.
And every one of Israel's feasts are focused on celebrating
(45:42):
what God has done. And sometimes that's in faith, right? The,
the first fruits, this is the first harvest. There's more
harvest to come, but we're celebrating now because this is
a demonstration of God's faithfulness. It's not manipulative. It's not magic, right?
It's worship. And, and I think that's the difference when,
whenever our Bible reading reduces itself down to magic instead
(46:04):
of worship.
Uh, I think, I think that's right, and we could
say this about church attendance and 1000 other things, and again,
the encouragement here is if it doesn't mean is not,
if it doesn't mean anything, just stop doing it. Right.
It's like Char said, it's, it's go deeper, do, do some,
some hard work on what am I actually after? Who
(46:25):
does God say he is and you know, um.
Uh, yeah, I think that's, that's where the fruitfulness comes.
But again, I, I have this nagging voice in me
that recognizes that again, sometimes we have dry seasons and
sometimes it's totally appropriate to just stick with the routine
and trust the Lord. But again, that's motive, right? It
it you can, you can read when it's hard out
(46:49):
of faith.
And you can read when it's hard out of fear, um,
and that difference is day and night, but the habit
looks the same, especially on the outside, but the impact
is worlds apart.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
Such a great conversation today here on Pastor's Perspective. Cesar,
thank you so much for calling in with that question.
And now let's go to Carlos in Fontana. You are
on Pastor's perspective. Carlos, thanks for calling 888-564-6173.
All right, Francis, thank you for your ministry.
Um, I, uh, my question was just out of curiosity.
(47:23):
My wife and I were discussing, um, obviously how is, is, is, is, um,
separation from God and, and torment for us we're choosing that. Um,
so I was just curious how, since Sa since Hall
was made for Satan and his demons, how, um,
And they chose to separate from God. I was just
curious how it is, uh, judgment, if there's any anything
(47:45):
in the Bible or anything about that torment for them.
Alright, har
Um, yeah, it's, you know, it's interesting. I think actually the,
the most detailed descriptions in my memory come from the
Gospel of Matthew on the lips of Jesus, and he's
the one that uh seems to reiterate more than any
(48:08):
other place, you know, that this is the place that
was made for the devil and his angels, and he's
got this repeating term where the worm does not die.
And the fire is not quenched, and he'll use other
descriptions of, you know, utter darkness. Um, Paul's got a
little bit in, I think Thessalonians where he talks about
(48:29):
it as well, uh, and then Peter has his, um,
And wandering stars for whom is reserved, the blackness of
darkness forever. Um, but I mean, it's really interesting. A
scripture is
For the most part silent on these things. Like, when
it comes to details of, of, you know, like, even
like think about like the crucifixion itself.
(48:51):
Like, you can go and look at the details of
Roman crucifixion from history books, but in the Gospels it's
literally like, and they took him out and they crucified him,
and that's all it says. And I think there's a
similar thing when we read about the judgment of Satan
and his minions is all we know is they will
be judged in this place, but we don't have, you know, like,
(49:14):
and these will be their tormentors, and this is what
it will look like, and it will be, you know,
this detailed list of these things, and
I, I don't know. I wonder if maybe God spares
us those because
That's just unhelpful for us. Like, those are not the
things that we're supposed to be focused on, and definitely, like,
(49:34):
you could, I could find myself delighting in that kind
of stuff in a weird kind of sick way, um,
and and and I'm not saying like, oh, I, I
have that bent, but I could see like where
You know, like a hunger and a thirst for justice,
uh turned in on itself, right? Where it becomes vengeance,
where it becomes like, um, you know, like a, a,
(49:56):
a bloodthirst for evil to return in in this way,
and I, I just think, yeah, the scriptures are pretty
silent on these things and
I think that this is one of those areas where
we just have to trust that God will be absolutely
just in all of his judgments. I often think about
that uh song of praise that, you know, the redeemed sing,
(50:20):
just and true are your ways, oh Lord, and this
is in light of God's judgments that he is giving,
you know, upon um the demonic world and, and the,
you know, the world that rejects God.
That in light of that, they say, well, just and true. So, Justin,
(50:41):
what say you?
Speaker 2 (50:42):
Yeah, I, um, I think that word judgment is, is the,
the key word here, you know, we, we may not
know what the punishments are, but, ah, that the devil
and his angels will be judged and that this is
God's just consequence for their rebellion, um, that is consistent
and so, you know, some of this is splitting hairs
(51:04):
and semantics and things, but we should probably make a
distinction between between torment and judgment.
We can be self tormentors, and I think this is
actually one of the places where CS Lewis is maybe
the least helpful in he, he, he tends to say
effectively that, that people who have been consumed by evil
left to their own devices is it's, it's it's own consequence.
(51:26):
But Jesus, as Char pointed out, is stronger than that.
There is not just an externality, whereas torment is something internal, uh,
but there is a judgment. There is a just judge,
there is a sentencing, and so I think it's really
important to maintain that, um, but, but Char's totally right.
It's hard not to read Dante's Inferno, for example. It's
(51:48):
hard to read Dante's Inferno, we all agree, but it's
hard not to read it and feel like he didn't
get kind of.
Ah, into misusing his creativity to think up punishments for,
for those in history that he resented, you know, um, ah, and,
and that's just talking about, you know, human beings, that's
talking about popes and high-level priests and things like that.
(52:11):
So I think there, there is a, a danger in
those things, um, but we do need to maintain here
that that God is a just judge and that
That hell is not like in another famous portrayal of
John Milton. Hell is not the place where, where the
devil just ends up and says better to reign in
hell than to serve in heaven. That may perfectly reflect
(52:32):
the heart of Satan, but it doesn't reflect the nature
of hell. Hell is created for.
The devil and his angels. It's not a refuge from
God that happens to be a horrible place cause God
isn't there, it is a punishment. Yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
Yeah, that would be more like ideas behind like the
Greek god Hades, right, who rules the underworld and kind
of keeps people there and torments them.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
And we can't escape that, right? We always think that
the devils are the ones doing the torment, right? This is,
this is what pop culture for 400 years of Western
history has told us is, is that we, you know,
we sell our souls to the devil, and that's an
eternal thing and now we're the devils to, to abuse
the rest of history. That's not how it goes. And again,
this is a place where Dante actually at least got
(53:17):
it right with Satan himself, who is at the very
center of hell and enduring the greatest punishment, you know,
not so much Milton Mo.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
Yeah, uh, you know, I just looked up, um, cause
I had this in the back of my head, but Jesus'
parable of Lazarus and the rich man is interesting, and
I think we want to be careful of pulling doctrine
out of parables, right? Because, you know, Jesus's point here
is not
(53:45):
You know, essentially like, oh, these are all doctrinal things
that point to a principle. It's, it's really principle based, right?
These provocative stories to really kind of get you to
think about what Jesus is talking about. Um, but he
does mention here about the rich man, number one, that he, uh,
is in Hades, right? Or uh the grave. He is
(54:06):
in torment, and then he cries out for Abraham to
have pity on him.
Because he is in agony in this fire.
Is the language that's used there. And so, you know, again,
like there's very little detail.
But yet we do find darkness, torment, and fire to
(54:31):
be consistent language that is used in the scripture for
what uh the kind of judgment that will happen in
this place called hell that is removed from God in
His presence. So, yeah. Justin, 45 seconds.
Speaker 2 (54:46):
Yeah, I mean it, anytime we talk about these things,
you know, it's, it's important to remember, I think two
really things, two really important things. One is, is gratitude.
Like, uh, the Bible doesn't primarily use hell as a
way to measure our salvation, but when we do talk
about it, it is a place where we should be
(55:09):
grateful and go, thank you so much that you, you
didn't lead me to my own devices, and the other
is compassion.
And I don't think we can have a conversation that's
this serious in terms of these consequences and, and not
say we're talking about a real future for real neighbors
and so we should compassionately take seriously how good the
(55:29):
good news we have is and how great the gift
of salvation, not just for us but for all who
will hear and receive it.
Speaker 1 (55:36):
Carlos, thank you for your question today on Pastor's perspective,
and we are out of time. Thank you everybody for
listening and watching. We're gonna archive today's episode a little
bit later in case you want to hear it again
or share it with your friends. And if you want
to find out more about the Calvary Chapel Bible College
in Bradenton, Florida, go to Calvary Chapel Bible College.com. Justin Thomas,
thanks for joining us. Charb Roroderson, thanks for being here
(55:58):
as well. We'll talk to you tomorrow on Pastor's Perspective.
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective for Monday, October 20th, 2025.
I'm your host, Brian Perez. Phone lines are open for
the next hour if you want to turn your Bible
obscurity into Bible perspicuity. Did I say that right?
I learned a new word yesterday, and I found it
in Justin Thomas's book called Calvary Chapel, It's Essence and Identity.
(00:41):
It's on page 24. I'm like, how do you say
that word? I challenged myself to learn it, and now
I'm using it here, and, uh, maybe we'll change the
name of the program to Pastor's perspicuity. Am I even
saying it right? I don't know. Is this your question? Yes, yes.
What does, yes, so.
now I can't say it, perspicuity is the um opposite
(01:04):
of obscurity. So, um, yeah, it was, it was just
a great word to see there and I just, so
it proves I'm reading the book, but anyway.
That book is back in stock at the chapel store
of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, by the way, if you
have not, uh, had a chance to check it out.
Short little book, about 100 pages, and, uh, we suggest you,
you get it. You can also buy it online at
(01:25):
Calvary Chapel.com. Justin Thomas, the, uh, president of the Calvary
Chapel Bible College in Bradenton, Florida, is on the program
with us, and he's the one who edited this book. Joshua,
good to see you. Justin, I mean, good to see you.
I'm everybody's
Speaker 2 (01:40):
name today. I just want to be clear, perspiguity is
not my word in that book. I, I do have
the fault of leaving it in as an editor, because
it does have history, but I wouldn't have put it
in the book if it were my chapter.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
That's right. Whose chapter was that? I guess I got
to find out. But uh. Yes, yes, we've had on
the program.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
He's smarter than all of us, so it's OK.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
When you use big $5 words like that, that's awesome.
Shar Broderson's here too. He's the lead pastor at Calvary
Chapel Costa Mesa. How are you, sir? I only know
small words. That's what I got. I'm fine.
But when you put a bunch of small words together,
they turn into big words. I like those. Yes, those
are awesome. So give us a call with your questions
at 888-564-6173. We would love to hear from you. If
(02:27):
you'd like to watch today's episode, we are live streaming
right now on Facebook, YouTube, and Instagram. We make the
program available as a podcast as well. Afterwards, you can
find it on Facebook, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. So
many ways that you can
Listen to the program, watch the program, send us your
questions online as well. But of course, our favorite way
(02:49):
to hear from you is on the telephone at 888-564-6173. Uh, Caesar,
we're gonna get to you in just a moment. First,
let me read at least one question that was sent
in online. Actually, I'm going to read two questions because
they are both similar in nature, and we are 11
days away from October 31st, if you know what I mean.
So countdown, yes, the countdown is on. Aurora in Omaha,
(03:13):
Nebraska wrote in, How do you explain heaven and hell,
demons and angels, and why we no longer celebrate Halloween
to a kid.
And then the other question likened to it, is from
Anthony in Brea, California. He asks, what are your thoughts
on participating in Halloween? Is it a sin to dress
my kids up and get candy at alternative events? So, Char,
(03:38):
we'll start with you. What do you say to Aurora
and Anthony?
He laughs. I do laugh. Yeah, I mean, I just
feel like I did not see where the last part
of this was going to go. I mean, like, it's
like heaven and hell, OK, demons and that we're not
celebrating Halloween, so.
Yeah, I mean, and how do you explain all of
this to a kid, um.
Yeah, I, I, I would love Aurora to call in
(04:01):
so we could actually have a bit more of a
detailed conversation about this. True, because it could be like
two different questions and shoot through the Halloween thing, yeah,
multiple questions too, like, in what context are we trying
to explain heaven and hell. I, I maybe I'll start here.
I do think that many times, you know, we kind
(04:21):
of um
We actually have a like a theology, a biblical theology
that's that's actually divorced from scripture. And what I mean
by that is, uh, in this example, is that we,
we often think that the Bible, its message is about
heaven and hell, when it is actually not, and I
don't believe in all of scripture you can actually find
(04:42):
those two words, uh, close together, uh, ever, but the
story of the Bible is actually about
Heaven and earth, right? And in the beginning, God created
the heavens and the earth, uh, he's creating this world
as a dwelling place for him and humanity, for his
cosmic project, right? To make the whole world his temple
(05:06):
garden like dwelling with humans.
And of course the story of scripture is that that
project because of the rebellion of humanity goes off the rails.
And then from Genesis 3 on out, God is on
mission to restore his original project uh of heaven and
earth being one of the dwelling place of God being
(05:26):
with human beings and this, you know, beautiful partnership project
that God has, so that the end of the story
and revelation is, you know,
Um, and then I saw a new heaven and a
new earth for the first heaven, the first earth had
passed away, right? It's these bookings on the story of,
you know, God's original intent, how that went off the rails,
(05:47):
and how God is, you know, bringing it to a
close that will result in a new beginning. And so,
you know, I think if I was having this conversation
with my kids, I would want clarity on that. And
then I think once we understand that, that heaven
Uh, is essentially what God desires. It's his, the place
where God rules, and in the end, God wants to
(06:09):
bring that to earth, and in a sense, make all
of earth heaven like. This is part of the Lord's prayer, right?
On earth as it is in heaven. So, if we
understand that, then we can begin to understand what hell is.
And I, I think about, uh, even CS Lewis, I
think he was the one that coined this phrase, hell
is a mercy.
(06:30):
And hell is the place where God will lock up
all evil and destruction, the devil, and all of his
minions forever and ever, that all of that will be
removed from God's good creation that he is renewing. And so,
you know, first and foremost, hell is not this.
(06:53):
You know, scary, awful place that God threatens to send us.
It is God's judgment on everything that is evil and
destructive to his good creation. And I think it's really
important for us to understand that those are the categories,
and then we can understand how some people will actually
(07:14):
end up in that place, because they have aligned themselves
with evil, they have aligned themselves against God and against his.
Goodness. And CS Lewis, you know, he had, again, another
way of putting this, uh, he would say that hell is,
you know, nobody is sent to hell, but people actually
choose it, and he had this phrase, hell is locked
(07:34):
from the inside, right? It is, it is actually something
that human beings are determined to set themselves against God.
Those are the people that will in the end will
join the devil and his angels in, you know, the
place called hell. So,
I've talked quite a bit. I don't know, Justin, you
want to talk about angels and then answer the question about,
(07:54):
you know, why or why you shouldn't celebrate Halloween.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Uh, no, I think that's good because, uh, you know,
if I could just add one more thing.
You know, trying to speak to children and explain these
things is actually something CS Les did quite a lot,
you know, the the last battle, his final book in
the Chronicles of Narnia series really does a good job
of explaining these things, not in the doctrinal sense, but,
(08:23):
but just in the significant sense and in a way
that kids can understand. So, so just setting that out there.
When it comes to angels and demons, um, I think
the first thing to recognize is that kids intrinsically are
open to a world they cannot see.
Ah, that, that's, that's how we all start, you know, with,
(08:44):
with adulthood in the modern world can come some form
of disenchantment, right? Where, where everything that was magic or
mystical or mythical, now we just have the real hard facts,
but kids aren't that way at all.
Which is why things like Santa Claus and the Easter
Bunny are so naturally received by kids. Now the problem is,
(09:05):
even as I say this, I know there's people thinking, yeah,
but you can't put those in the same category because
the Easter Bunny isn't real and angels and demons are.
That's not my point. My point is that
Explaining to the uh to your children that there are
things that they've never encountered in face to face that
exist and that there are things that aren't even observable
(09:28):
to the human eye, that that's a natural starting point.
So how do I explain angels and demons to my
kid has nothing to do with my kid's not going
to believe me because it's supernatural. That's not where the
issue lies. The issue is with helping them recognize that
there are
Forces that are aligned with God and that there are
(09:48):
forces opposed to God, uh, and, and you can do
this directly from the biblical stories. Genesis 3 is a
great place to, to illustrate, uh, demonic influence in our
life and, and the resistance there, as well as the
temptations of Jesus in the Gospels. Of course, the Bible
(10:09):
is full of angelic appearances as well and
And I guess what I would suggest is that.
Um, what's what children need most is stories that concretely
exemplify doctrine.
This is the best way to do this, and so the,
the stories of scripture, the, the best place to begin
(10:31):
with this, and the Chronicles of Narnia is, is a
close second, but I think that's really the thing you,
you want to convey. Now, I have to fill in
a lot of blanks to tie this to the concerns
about Halloween, you know, um, and so what I would
guess is that, OK, the problem with Halloween is that
there is this kind of fake.
(10:52):
Pretend celebratory, mock version of what are actually real things
that should be taken seriously, you know, and this is
a common concern in Christian families, portrayals of the occult
are dangerous because they're too close to the occult, things
like this. Uh, and so all, all I would say is,
you know, if you're trying to connect the dots and
(11:14):
you're doing it from that place of conviction, um, then,
then you just need to say that.
Uh, you know, our concerns about Halloween are is that
they align and celebrate with things that are not godly,
that are not aligned with his purposes. Now,
Does that mean that Halloween is sinful? This is the
(11:35):
other question question we got. In fact, I believe the
questioner went further and suggested that maybe even alternatives to
Halloween are still somehow tainted, that, that a harvest party is,
is harvest in name only, uh, which, you know, I,
I pastored in Seattle. I always snickered when churches threw
harvest parties because they've never been in an orchard in
their lives. Um, but, uh, but the concern, you know,
(11:59):
I think, uh, is.
is a misunderstanding of what culture is and does.
And so, uh, one of the things that culture does,
and we do this all the time is we appropriate.
We take old things and we make them new things.
Not always do those new things retain the, the purposes,
the intentions, the habits, the significance of the old things,
(12:23):
you know, um, and so, so I'm not so sure
it's so simple to say Halloween has this origin story
and now it's celebrated this way, and Christmas is a
good illustration, right? There were all sorts of competitive.
And older traditions.
Uh, around December before Christians launched Christianity, and what it
(12:47):
really was was countercultural. They tried to take holidays that
celebrate one thing and said, look, there's only one thing
worth celebrating in all of life, and this is God's
great plan in Jesus Christ. We're going to celebrate that
and did they appropriate? Did they take some imagery from
other places? I'm not sure. History disagrees, cultural, uh, you know,
(13:09):
warriors fight about these things, but it doesn't matter.
Because that's something Christians do all the time, that's what
we did with the cross. The cross is not a
Christian symbol, it's a symbol of Roman oppression and and
a threat against the, uh, you know, resistance.
The fact that we redeemed that is literally what Christianity
(13:30):
is all about, that that we have a God who's
so great that he can take old symbols and give
them new and redemptive meaning. So I don't think we
should be afraid of that. That's not enough to answer
the question, um, but, but all I would say is,
is that, uh, yes, do we want things to convey
alignment with our belief system? Absolutely.
(13:52):
But we also always do that with this, with this
reality that we can redeem, that we don't just reject
or accept, that we can actually see something transformed to
convey a new message and one that actually makes the
gospel clear and relevant to our times. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Anything else? No, I, I appreciate that. I was thinking
the same thing, just the way that we engage with culture, receive, redeem, reject.
These are the options that we, we have kind of
in our tool belt. I think too for, you know,
in a.
Uh maybe coming from like a more kind of fundamentalist view, where,
you know, we kind of see, like you were saying earlier, Justin,
(14:32):
where we just kind of see, there are kind of
two categories. There is, you know, the, the secular and
there is the sacred, and so we just reject everything
we assume is secular. I love what you're saying there,
like even just thinking about the cross and the symbol
that this is, there is this redemption of that. And
so even thinking about, you know, maybe even like a
(14:52):
harvest party, like,
Like, is that a redemption of this? And I think
about like, you know, you lived in Seattle, I lived
in the Bay Area for many years doing ministry there,
and I would often just think about like what's happening
on this day of the week, right? Like, my role
in being a pastor in a local community is to
(15:13):
represent Christ to my city in the way that I live,
in what I'm teaching our congregation, where I'm directing all
of our efforts, right? And
A big part of a Christian presence is to reach
individuals with the gospel, and we do that through hospitality,
we do do that through service, we do that through,
you know, engaging in in conversation, you know. And so,
(15:35):
you think about you have an evening where everyone in
your neighborhood is coming to your door.
Right? And there could be all sorts of rumors about
what kind of person you are, you know, and oh, well,
you know, they already know that you're the pastor and
they've got their assumptions about what Christianity is and about
who you are and your family and what you guys
do behind closed doors and all these things.
(15:56):
And I just think, man, what an incredible opportunity to
be hospitable and to actually go above and beyond and
surprise those neighbors in my receptivity of them, in my
engaging them in their celebration of this day and my
hospitality towards them. It's like these are actually opportunities to
(16:16):
be involved and present and to be a witness to
our neighbors. Now, maybe not in the way that we're,
they're coming to our door and, you know, we're giving
a tract or we're giving gospel message to.
Every individual, but that we actually are, you know, planting
seeds that will eventually lead to those deeper conversations and
deeper connections. And I think
(16:37):
To me, this is just another opportunity as a Christian
who lives in a local neighborhood where there's many people
far from God to represent Christ, to engage with them,
and hopefully make connections that will lead to deeper conversations
about the meaning of the world and about the hope
that we have in Jesus. So, I would love for
Christians to think more in terms of that than
(17:00):
You know, just how do we safeguard ourselves. Jordan and
I were just having a conversation about this, like, what's
the difference between Jesus and the Pharisees? The Pharisees are
obsessed with moral purity, and so they keep themselves from
those they think that are far from God, right?
And Jesus actually is morally pure, and yet he goes
after those people that are far from God, and he
(17:22):
denounces them for their hypocrisy, right? They should be doing
the very thing that he's doing. And I think for
some reason the church seems to be overly concerned with
our moral purity and not the present need of salvation
for the world, uh, needs seems to be concerned with
our moral purity.
And not how, you know, we serve others, and I,
(17:45):
I just think that we're missing, you know, this key
aspect of our witness and the gospel, and, and I
think that this is where we should be directed back
towards what Jesus did. He never compromised his own moral
purity and and morals, and yet he was with these people.
It says that they loved him. We were drawn to.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
It's about the direction of influence, right? The direction of
influence was Jesus was changing lives and yet he remained unchanged,
and that's what salt and light does. Darkness can't get
rid of light, but light does remove darkness. Uh, salt
isn't threatened by corruption.
Uh, and when it is, it's no longer a salt, right?
That's salt that's lost its savor, but, but salt can
(18:25):
actually stay corruption, um, and so I think that's right,
and maybe it's not non-participation or handout the gospel tract.
Maybe you wrap that tract around the biggest king size
candy bar available that night, right? And you tie it
with uh, you know, with generosity and joy.
Um, but you also use that as an opportunity. I think,
(18:46):
I think that's great. Uh, now, is it one and done? No, and,
and Char is right here. You don't want to reduce
it down to be like, Good, I've been my witness
on Halloween because I handed out 150 tracks. Um, but
a track like anything else is just a moment in
a story, and, uh, you know, an invitation into our homes,
an invitation to church, an invitation to know Jesus Christ.
(19:07):
They're all potential.
Thresholds, moving the story forward and I think that's great,
but I, I do wish, I think if, if you're
gonna open your door and you're gonna hand something out,
don't be like the lady who's concerned for people's teeth
and gives apples instead, you know, uh, instead, give, give
the track, give them a God bless you, you know,
do any of those things, but also give them more
(19:29):
than anyone else does, you know, this, this is what
Jesus was, he was impossible to put in a box.
The people who knew that he loved them, they said,
How could you love me, right? They couldn't figure out
how someone like this could respond like that. And unfortunately,
I think too often the American church just isn't surprising
enough for our culture. We do exactly what the script
(19:50):
says we're going to do and what the culture expects
us to do, and, and I just don't see that
in Jesus.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah,
yeah, I do think too underneath this question some of
the other questions we get around Halloween and
You know, we get a lot of questions around uh
the occult Ouija board still and things like this. You know, I,
I do think that
To me, I feel like there is a a bit
of an obsession right now in the church about um
(20:17):
Demons and, you know, impure spirits and these things, almost
like attaching to us. And what, you know, we just,
we've had a number of calls like this uh on
the show, but, you know, I think when I read
the pages of scripture and primarily the New Testament, right?
Like we can find, obviously there are, you know, clear
(20:37):
passages that are refusing uh the Jewish people from engaging
in these occultic practices, the way of the pagans, all this.
But in the New Testament, we don't ever see the
language being used because you might be infected by these, or, like,
the language is never that the kingdom of darkness is
threatening the kingdom of light, and I love, you were just,
(20:57):
what triggered this is when you're talking about salt and light,
and I think we need to flip the script on
this a bit for
The church, in our perspective, I think, on the world
out there. Remember Jesus said, greater is he who is
in you than he who is in the world. And
I think sometimes we're looking at the world, we're thinking
about Halloween, like, oh well, this is the devil's night,
(21:20):
and he just has his people everywhere, and they're trying
to advance the kingdom of darkness. And so this is,
you know, almost like a uh
A neo Passover. We close our doors, we lock everything up,
and we hide from the spirit of Halloween to pass,
you know, and then once it does, then we can
come out and we're safe again, you know.
Uh, but just like this idea that if we engage
(21:41):
in these things somehow we're gonna be affected by them,
we're gonna be drawn into these pagan practices and these things.
And I think this was not the perspective of the
early church. They saw that Jesus had already triumphed, that
demons and, you know, demonic spirits just like, quailed at
his word, like were like fleeing at his presence, and
(22:03):
he was marching.
Forward in victory and they were going in his wake.
And I really think that we need to recapture that
sense of, you know, what Colossian says, right? That Christ
has actually already overcome. He has disarmed the powers that
were against us. He nailed them to the cross, he
triumphed over them. And I think, especially when it comes
(22:24):
to the spiritual realm, we need to see ourselves as
we are those who actually have already overcome through the
victory that is in
Jesus, rather than this, you know, fleeing and being afraid
of what's coming after us, and what might attach to us,
we actually already have victory and full protection and and
through Jesus Christ. And I, that's what we see, right?
(22:45):
Jesus is not afraid of the demons, he touches them,
and the demon is cleansed, it's removed. They have no
power before him.
Yeah. Very good. Anthony and Aurora, thank you so much
for sending in your questions. Aurora on the pastor's perspective
Facebook page using messenger, and Anthony sent his in on
(23:07):
the Kwave.com pastor's perspective page, or maybe he just scanned
the QR code on Facebook, YouTube and Instagram down there
on the bottom. And you scan that code, it'll take
you right to the pastor's perspective page where you can
fill out the form and send in your questions. So
now you know,
October 31st, you're gonna hand out the biggest candy bars
in the neighborhood and you're gonna say God bless you
(23:29):
to little kids dressed up as demons. I mean, I mean,
think about that, think about that.
All right, 888-564-6173 to Torrent we go, Torrents of living water.
Here is Cesar, who is listening to us on the
Kwave app. What's up, Cesar?
Hello, everyone. Thank you for taking my call. Um, so,
(23:49):
on a lighter topic. Um, my wife and I have
been together for almost 28 years. We were not blessed
with kids, so we never got to raise a child
or raise anything. But as uh a week ago, we
got an 11 year old puppy.
And the reason why I'm calling is because you want
to know if it's OK to take your puppy trick
(24:09):
or treating? Is that what your question is? Yeah. So the,
for the, the 1st 15 years that I've been following Jesus,
the first thing that I do in the morning is
read my Bible, right? Spend time with the Lord, but
now it's get up, take the puppy out to pee.
Mhm, I, I really, it really has been affecting my
(24:29):
devotional time with with the Lord in the mornings, my
quality time, to the point where I feel, I feel bad,
I feel guilty because I'm not spending the same amount
of time that I've been spending, you know, for so
many years.
And so just curious of like, you know, uh, is this, uh,
what do you guys think? What, how does God view
us when we're interrupted in that way, you know, that's
(24:49):
my question. I don't think we've ever gotten this question
before on pastor's perspective. I could be wrong. People sometimes
call and, oh, I've got a new job. I can't
go to church on Sundays, but, uh, Caesar's calling and saying,
I got a new puppy. I'm not spending time with
the Lord. Justin, what do you say to Caesar?
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, you know, it's funny, Caesar, when you were talking,
you know, I was like, OK, we're, we're talking about pets,
but he's referenced never having kids, where is this gonna go?
But this is actually a pretty good analogy that any
parent can relate to. Um, the, the truth is, when,
when kids into your life, you know, it's, it's not
just first thing in the morning that's interrupted, it's life
as we know it, you know, and I think the
(25:26):
same thing is true with a puppy. I've got a,
a 2 year old puppy, I can remember what those
first months were like.
Um, what I would say is actually a broader principle
that I've learned in life, um, and that's it, habits
are contextual, and, and all I mean when I say
contextual is that we design them to fit particular circumstances,
(25:47):
and when circumstances change, we have to adjust our habits.
And if I can just illustrate from my marriage with
my wife.
Um, we have 5 kids, but we run our family like,
like a naval officer with his ship, you know. So
since my kids were born, their bedtime has been 7 o'clock,
and when they were too old for a 7 o'clock bedtime,
(26:08):
it was still quiet time, and they were in their
rooms by 7 o'clock. What this means is, me and
my wife have had every single evening together that we
weren't at church our entire marriage, and that was intentional.
This is us time, it's not interrupted by other things,
and we trained our kids to fit in those spaces.
When COVID hit,
We discovered that we were so worn out under all
(26:28):
of the stress that by the time 7 o'clock rolled around,
it was all we could do to just browse something
on television or go to bed. We weren't actually really
connecting and our marriage wasn't working the same way, tensions
were getting high, miscommunications, all of these things. And we
had to go, OK, this isn't working. We still need
the habit.
But we need a way that we can do it
(26:49):
now and so we started to take midday walks together
uh every day uh and that became our touch point
for the day. And then once COVID was gone, we
switched it back. I think this is generally how habits are,
because the truth is, Cesar, you, your wife, you guys
aren't in control.
And if it's not this circumstance, it will be another,
(27:09):
and if you had had kids or if we have
another COVID, you know, we, we, we encounter things like
this all the time and so what I would say
is um that uh that your awareness of this right
now is a gift.
It's an opportunity to go, OK, Lord, how can I
change things up to make this work? And no, God
(27:30):
is not angry at you because the puppy's bladder demands
attention first thing in the morning. This is, this is
not a problem in terms of you giving your fruit
first fruits to the Lord or those types of things,
but all of us agree, would agree, Brian and Chahar
and myself, this time for the Lord is with the
Lord is important to you, and having it on a
regular rhythm like daily is something you have to make
(27:51):
work and
You might go into the hospital with a gallbladder, you know,
or an appendix burst or something, and maybe that rhythm's
gonna be broken for a week, but a puppy is
not a vacation. It, it's not gonna happen for a week.
And so, so I would just really encourage you to think, OK,
what are the different ways uh that I could go
about this? And you know, there are ways that you
(28:12):
can adapt your practice with the puppy. Make it a
full blown walk, put your headphones in and listen to
the Bible, uh, read to you.
That's actually a significantly valuable practice, one that I often
encourage people to because the Bible was meant to be heard, um, or,
you know, look for another time, or, and this is
Martin Luther's approach, uh, get up earlier. Get up before
(28:34):
your puppy, find that space where it will be uninterrupted. Uh,
this is what Martin Luther did when things got crazy
during the Reformation. He started getting up at 4 a.m.
because he knew he needed this time with the Lord
and he didn't have any other option.
I think all of those are good, but, but so
is adaptability, because the truth is the Lord isn't interested
(28:54):
in your schedule.
When things happen and if you hit them consistently and
if every day you get to tick off that box
and tick it off first, the Lord doesn't care about that.
He just wants to be in a relationship with you.
And just, just like, you know, when your wife's work
schedule changes, uh, or, or when other things shift in
life and you pivot for the sake of that relationship,
(29:14):
that's what's required here.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Chart 30 seconds.
I don't think I could say anything in 30 seconds. OK,
we'll come back afterwards and talk about it. My advice
is just get a cat. Just train the cat how
to use the litter box and then you don't have
to worry about, uh, you know, taking your dog out. No,
I'm joking. Um, OK, so we'll continue talking about this
and whatever you guys want to talk about, we're going
to be in the studio for another 30 minutes. 888-564-617.
(29:39):
3 is the number to call. I'm Brian Perez. The
program is called Pastor's Perspective. We've got Pastors Char Broderson
and Justin Thomas here to answer the questions you have
about the Bible, the Christian faith, just about anything that's
on your mind, your puppy, your, uh, kids, and Halloween time.
Give us a call 888-564-6173.
(30:18):
888-564-6173 is the number to call us today on Pastor's Perspective.
We would love to hear from you, so grab an
open line. We've got Pastors Char Roderson and Justin Thomas
answering your questions. 888-564-6173. We were speaking with Caesar, who, uh,
just got a new puppy, and he's wondering, uh, he's wondering,
(30:41):
this is interfering with my quiet time, and we heard, uh,
Justin's response, and now let's hear from Char.
I was just thinking about.
Yeah, I mean, very similar to what Justin was saying,
but
you know, maybe this moment is a gift actually, um,
to engage with God in just a totally different way,
(31:01):
you know, and I think about, um,
Jordan, who I work with and kind of my counterpart
in ministry, we often talk about, uh, you know, spiritual
tools that we have, you know, that, um, vehicles we
have through scripture to engage with God, you know, prayer, community, um,
of course, the reading of scripture, the preaching of God's word,
(31:24):
always in in which we engage with the spirit of
God where we worship God, we hear from God, we
speak back to God.
And, you know, sometimes I think we do, you know,
all of us, right, we can get kind of stuck
in a rut, right? Just a, a habit that is
no longer really maybe um challenging us, right? And we
(31:45):
do this with music, we do this with exercise. I mean,
this happens right in in all of our, we hit
a wall, right?
And maybe even that's not what's happening in this case,
but maybe this moment is a gift to begin um
engaging with God in a way uh that it's just
been untapped and uncultivated in the past. And I think
(32:05):
about there was a season in my life where, you know,
having kids, um, we begin to go on family walks
and we would do these regularly.
And I realized on these family walks that I had
kind of lost my sense of wonder. And uh we
lived in a really just beautiful neighborhood that just everyone
(32:28):
had these gardens, but, you know, vegetable gardens and fruit
trees and, you know, the giant redwoods in our neighborhood
and and we would often walk through this little park
by our house as well. And I remember
Like I was looking at stuff and engaging with it
like I was a toddler, you know, it's like, whoa,
like this, look at this color. And it was like
(32:50):
blowing my mind in a way that was restoring wonder
and worship.
In a way that I, I think I had become
so consumed with learning and theology at the time. I
spent so much time in those early years just studying
and I was studying by myself. I was the only
one on staff and so
(33:10):
You know, I guess what I'm expressing was like a
very sterile kind of environment, and maybe a sterile spirituality,
very something very uh static. And what was introduced to
me through these family walks was a new, uh, dynamic
with engaging with God and worshiping Him. And I think about, OK,
here's a puppy that is driving you outside where the
(33:32):
heavens declare the glory of God, especially early in the
morning to see some of the sunrises, yeah, I mean, so.
Yeah, there's like, there's these crazy uh green parrots that
like flock all over Orange County, and they're so loud
and just wild, and there's like this whole lore behind
how they got here and everything, but literally, there's thousands
(33:53):
of them.
And they never come in Santa Ana. They're in Orange,
they're in Costa Mesa, they're in all these places and
the other morning I was out very early in the
morning and there was a flock of these green parrots
that flew over and they were just squawking their heads
off and I just thought, there they are, you know,
like a kid again. I was just like, yes, they
(34:13):
come here too, you know.
Um, but just like this, like, you know, parrots just
crack me up too. They're just so obnoxious and loud, like,
it's just got to be part of God's sense of humor,
you know, these crazy birds. And anyway, so all this
to say, like, I wonder if maybe this is an
invitation from the Lord to to like lay aside this
(34:35):
not as, you know, like, yeah, you are now, you know,
Bible reading and study and quiet time with God is
no longer important, but maybe there's a new dynamic in
which to engage with the Lord that he's inviting you into,
and this puppy is just simply an introduction to that.
Maybe you'll find a depth to your relationship with God
that you've never discovered before. Yeah, in my life too,
(34:56):
there was a season where actually a listening prayer did
this in my life, uh,
where I had never practiced this ever before. I am
a talker, and I like to process things. And I
remember there was a season where I had no words
and I just began to just sit quietly before the Lord.
And he met me in a way that I had
(35:17):
truly never experienced to that point, uh, just to affirm
me and just, I think to just like
Bathe me in his love, you know, just kind of
all the things that I was feeling and carrying. God
just begin to remove all of that by just affirming
me in his love. And so I think, you know,
kind of back to Justin's point, these things that we
(35:38):
see kind of as these interruptions actually might be invitations, uh,
to God's presence and to engaging with the Lord in
a way that we never have before.
We always talk about, yeah, and don't look at things
as interruptions, but as opportunities, like when it comes to people. So,
you know, that person's not an interruption to your day,
it's an opportunity to minister to them or whatever the
(35:59):
case might be. So yeah, Caesar, this could be just
a new way to engage with the Lord. Maybe you
do it at a different time. I think there's also
so much emphasis that we hear all the time about
that importance of waking up at 5 in the morning.
And or whatever time and making that the first thing
you do where it almost gets people, uh, it just
becomes this rut and and you wonder, I remember when
(36:23):
I used to do the early morning shift here on K-wave,
and when I first got that shift having to start
at 5:30 in the morning, it's like, oh my gosh,
that means I'm gonna have to get up at what time?
And I couldn't always do it. And there was just
the sense of
Uh, you know, condemnation almost like you're not reading your
Bible in the morning, you're not a good Christian. And
then I heard one of the pastors here on Kwave.
(36:44):
He was just talking about that. He said, you know what,
if you have to read during your lunch hour, do
it then. I was like, wow, that was amazing. Yeah,
and there is a bit of this like modernity where
we think that this is just the way that it's
always been. Justin, you were uh talking earlier about, you know,
traditionally the scriptures were heard, you know.
(37:05):
Um, orally, right? Like, people didn't have their scrolls that
they carried around with them, you know, or a pocket
sized version of the scrolls that they carried with them. Now,
there might be certain statements that they would have, you know,
little passages of scripture that they would carry, but for
the most part, you went to synagogue, and you heard
the scriptures taught on one day of the week.
(37:27):
And the rest of the week, you carried these, you know,
things that you had heard with you, and you recited
these prayers, right? Like the shama, of course, Jesus gives
us the Lord's prayer. There are these things that we
are given to recite to keep us in touch with God,
but I do think that this idea of like,
You know, daily quiet time has almost become a legalistic, like,
(37:51):
if you don't do this daily, first thing, first fruits
in the morning, you are not a good Christian. And
I think we just need to pump the brakes on
ideas like this and just look back at the history
of the world and say, OK, were people that didn't
have the scriptures back then less spiritual than we are today?
Were they less Christian than we are today?
(38:11):
And yet, the answer is no. So how did they
engage with the scriptures and spiritual maturity and the work
of sanctification with the limited amount of scripture exposure that
they had, you know, what were the habits that they
formed in their life? And we could talk about catechism
and all the things, right, that the churches used throughout
history to learn these things. We could talk about hymnology
(38:34):
and how that came about, right? It was bar tunes
that they used these melodies to teach people doctrine.
So like there's all of these mechanisms and vehicles that
people use to engage with scripture and to engage in
worship of God. And I think unfortunately, we've scaled all
of that down to kind of one, you know, tool.
(38:55):
And so I do think it's good for us to
have conversations like this, like, you know, actually there's many
tools and many wonderful ways that we can engage with
the Lord. So Justin.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Yeah, um, you know, in Colossians it says that the
word of Christ should dwell dwell in us richly. That's
an actual command, that's the actual exhortation, but the, the
practicality of what that looks like in any given time
or place, you know, differs, and I think it might
be helpful here to talk about the difference between habits
and habits. Habits is an older word that's broader than
(39:31):
our modern idea of habits. So a farmer has a habitist.
He has a way of being, but it's more than
just he gets up at 6 a.m. and feeds the cows.
It it includes the fact that if the cow is sick,
he knows exactly what it needs, and he's gonna be
up all night with the cow cause he knows what
it takes. Habituts is deeper because it's the type of
(39:53):
person you are and it's reflected in your behavior.
But the behavior is flowing outward, and this is, this
is how Jesus talked about these things. I can't imagine
anything worse than saying, if you want to please the Lord,
then just read your Bible every morning. That goes against
the grain of everything Jesus taught about fruit and the
(40:14):
way that trees grow and and these types of things. Now,
we all hit dry seasons where sometimes
The rhythm is helpful because what we're really doing is
white knuckling this part, and we're just holding on for
dear life and it doesn't feel like it's working, but
I've got to do something that's not what I'm necessarily
speaking against, um, but, but actions without right motives don't work, and,
(40:38):
and Jesus is clear on this. He, he doesn't, you know,
he doesn't care if you
Uh, read your devotions like some of my Bible college
peers right in front of the girls' dorm every morning
because you want to be known as the guy who
reads his Bible every morning, right? Jesus is clear that,
Speaker 1 (40:56):
that doesn't happen. tell me that does not happen. That's
Speaker 2 (40:59):
real. Oh sorry, Brian, that's, that's probably just my critical heart. I,
I don't know the hearts of these young lustful men, uh, but,
but my guess is this is what was going on, uh, but.
But all of that to say that there's so much
more involved in the value of a habit than rhythm.
Or consistency or these types of things. And so, so,
(41:20):
you know, this idea of of a habitist, and I'll
just illustrate this last way.
I don't know what's gonna happen in my life career wise.
I love leading the Bible school right now. I loved
being a pastor before this, but I, I can tell
you what, wherever I am, there's certain things that I'm
just going to not be able not to do.
I might get paid for those things. I might not,
(41:41):
but I could just pull into a town for no
reason at all, and I'm going to find a way
to study God's word and share it with other people.
That that's, that's deeper than habit. It's not just, well,
I study the Bible because I have to teach on
Sunday mornings. It's never been that. It's, it's an overflow
of something deeper than that that's both what God has
gifted me to and called me to and and the
(42:03):
situations that he's placed me in.
Um, and so, you know, this, this idea of, of habits,
even with Jesus, he, he doesn't say I must get
away in the sense of if I don't do this,
God will be mad at me. He says, I need this. It's,
it's the must of need. I am dependent upon this
time with the Lord, uh, and, and so, so it's
(42:24):
not about how.
How can change, how can be interrupted, how can be
put on hold, um, but it's about this deeper thing of,
of relationship, you know, and looking for ways to enhance
that relationship, uh, and continue it.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Sure, yeah, yeah, I know we're kind of probably belaboring
the point on this one, but I do just one
last thing, um, you know, will God be mad at me?
And I would say,
You know, I think if that's the reason that we're
doing these things too, there's like a a deeper disconnect
um with the character of God.
(43:05):
Right, like
You know, like, if, um,
Yeah, like if my kid said to me, like, if
I'm like, hey, I I wanna spend some time with you,
you know, and then they said, OK, well, I'm busy today,
are you mad at me? Hm.
Are you mad at me because I can't, you know,
because I'm busy, are you mad at me?
I think, uh, no, I'm not mad at you, like
(43:27):
I understand that you're busy, you know, like, and and
of course,
There can be more to this conversation, but I think
just first and foremost, there is just a a um
A slant on the character of God when that's our assumption.
If I don't do this ritual every single day, well,
(43:48):
then God will get mad at me. That's actually more
akin to the pagans of the, uh, you know, the
the gods of the pagans of the Old Testament, you know, oh,
we have to give our rain sacrifice every single day,
or by all will be mad at us, and he
will not favor us with His grace. But that is
not the God and Savior of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(44:09):
He is the Father who already knows, right, what we
need and
Um, he's very near to us. He knows our concerns.
He remembers as the Psalm says that we are dust,
that we're frail, he knows that we get busy in
these things. And so, you know, of course, we're not
trying to discourage, you know, a commitment to the scriptures
(44:29):
or reading or these habits for life, but I think,
and the motivation behind these things, like Justin was saying,
is so very important.
And that we're actually clear that the reason we engage
with scripture is not so that God won't be mad
at us, but so that we can know this God
of love in a transformative way. And I think if
(44:49):
we're not experiencing that through our Bible reading, then we
probably need to do a little digging on, you know, man,
what's going on underneath.
all of this, right? That I am assuming that this
is how God feels towards me and probably some work about,
you know, our worth to God, His love, does it
actually reach me? Is it actually for me? Does he
(45:12):
forgive my sin? Am I actually seen as his beloved?
These are questions that we really need to kind of
unearth uh in in a moment like this.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yeah, sure, I just think that uh pointing to the
feasts and and the practices of Israel versus their neighbor
is a golden illustration, you know, um the, the worship
of Baal, the times that they observed were before the harvest.
And every one of Israel's feasts are focused on celebrating
(45:42):
what God has done. And sometimes that's in faith, right? The,
the first fruits, this is the first harvest. There's more
harvest to come, but we're celebrating now because this is
a demonstration of God's faithfulness. It's not manipulative. It's not magic, right?
It's worship. And, and I think that's the difference when,
whenever our Bible reading reduces itself down to magic instead
(46:04):
of worship.
Uh, I think, I think that's right, and we could
say this about church attendance and 1000 other things, and again,
the encouragement here is if it doesn't mean is not,
if it doesn't mean anything, just stop doing it. Right.
It's like Char said, it's, it's go deeper, do, do some,
some hard work on what am I actually after? Who
(46:25):
does God say he is and you know, um.
Uh, yeah, I think that's, that's where the fruitfulness comes.
But again, I, I have this nagging voice in me
that recognizes that again, sometimes we have dry seasons and
sometimes it's totally appropriate to just stick with the routine
and trust the Lord. But again, that's motive, right? It
it you can, you can read when it's hard out
(46:49):
of faith.
And you can read when it's hard out of fear, um,
and that difference is day and night, but the habit
looks the same, especially on the outside, but the impact
is worlds apart.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
Such a great conversation today here on Pastor's Perspective. Cesar,
thank you so much for calling in with that question.
And now let's go to Carlos in Fontana. You are
on Pastor's perspective. Carlos, thanks for calling 888-564-6173.
All right, Francis, thank you for your ministry.
Um, I, uh, my question was just out of curiosity.
(47:23):
My wife and I were discussing, um, obviously how is, is, is, is, um,
separation from God and, and torment for us we're choosing that. Um,
so I was just curious how, since Sa since Hall
was made for Satan and his demons, how, um,
And they chose to separate from God. I was just
curious how it is, uh, judgment, if there's any anything
(47:45):
in the Bible or anything about that torment for them.
Alright, har
Um, yeah, it's, you know, it's interesting. I think actually the,
the most detailed descriptions in my memory come from the
Gospel of Matthew on the lips of Jesus, and he's
the one that uh seems to reiterate more than any
(48:08):
other place, you know, that this is the place that
was made for the devil and his angels, and he's
got this repeating term where the worm does not die.
And the fire is not quenched, and he'll use other
descriptions of, you know, utter darkness. Um, Paul's got a
little bit in, I think Thessalonians where he talks about
(48:29):
it as well, uh, and then Peter has his, um,
And wandering stars for whom is reserved, the blackness of
darkness forever. Um, but I mean, it's really interesting. A
scripture is
For the most part silent on these things. Like, when
it comes to details of, of, you know, like, even
like think about like the crucifixion itself.
(48:51):
Like, you can go and look at the details of
Roman crucifixion from history books, but in the Gospels it's
literally like, and they took him out and they crucified him,
and that's all it says. And I think there's a
similar thing when we read about the judgment of Satan
and his minions is all we know is they will
be judged in this place, but we don't have, you know, like,
(49:14):
and these will be their tormentors, and this is what
it will look like, and it will be, you know,
this detailed list of these things, and
I, I don't know. I wonder if maybe God spares
us those because
That's just unhelpful for us. Like, those are not the
things that we're supposed to be focused on, and definitely, like,
(49:34):
you could, I could find myself delighting in that kind
of stuff in a weird kind of sick way, um,
and and and I'm not saying like, oh, I, I
have that bent, but I could see like where
You know, like a hunger and a thirst for justice,
uh turned in on itself, right? Where it becomes vengeance,
where it becomes like, um, you know, like a, a,
(49:56):
a bloodthirst for evil to return in in this way,
and I, I just think, yeah, the scriptures are pretty
silent on these things and
I think that this is one of those areas where
we just have to trust that God will be absolutely
just in all of his judgments. I often think about
that uh song of praise that, you know, the redeemed sing,
(50:20):
just and true are your ways, oh Lord, and this
is in light of God's judgments that he is giving,
you know, upon um the demonic world and, and the,
you know, the world that rejects God.
That in light of that, they say, well, just and true. So, Justin,
(50:41):
what say you?
Speaker 2 (50:42):
Yeah, I, um, I think that word judgment is, is the,
the key word here, you know, we, we may not
know what the punishments are, but, ah, that the devil
and his angels will be judged and that this is
God's just consequence for their rebellion, um, that is consistent
and so, you know, some of this is splitting hairs
(51:04):
and semantics and things, but we should probably make a
distinction between between torment and judgment.
We can be self tormentors, and I think this is
actually one of the places where CS Lewis is maybe
the least helpful in he, he, he tends to say
effectively that, that people who have been consumed by evil
left to their own devices is it's, it's it's own consequence.
(51:26):
But Jesus, as Char pointed out, is stronger than that.
There is not just an externality, whereas torment is something internal, uh,
but there is a judgment. There is a just judge,
there is a sentencing, and so I think it's really
important to maintain that, um, but, but Char's totally right.
It's hard not to read Dante's Inferno, for example. It's
(51:48):
hard to read Dante's Inferno, we all agree, but it's
hard not to read it and feel like he didn't
get kind of.
Ah, into misusing his creativity to think up punishments for,
for those in history that he resented, you know, um, ah, and,
and that's just talking about, you know, human beings, that's
talking about popes and high-level priests and things like that.
(52:11):
So I think there, there is a, a danger in
those things, um, but we do need to maintain here
that that God is a just judge and that
That hell is not like in another famous portrayal of
John Milton. Hell is not the place where, where the
devil just ends up and says better to reign in
hell than to serve in heaven. That may perfectly reflect
(52:32):
the heart of Satan, but it doesn't reflect the nature
of hell. Hell is created for.
The devil and his angels. It's not a refuge from
God that happens to be a horrible place cause God
isn't there, it is a punishment. Yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
Yeah, that would be more like ideas behind like the
Greek god Hades, right, who rules the underworld and kind
of keeps people there and torments them.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
And we can't escape that, right? We always think that
the devils are the ones doing the torment, right? This is,
this is what pop culture for 400 years of Western
history has told us is, is that we, you know,
we sell our souls to the devil, and that's an
eternal thing and now we're the devils to, to abuse
the rest of history. That's not how it goes. And again,
this is a place where Dante actually at least got
(53:17):
it right with Satan himself, who is at the very
center of hell and enduring the greatest punishment, you know,
not so much Milton Mo.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
Yeah, uh, you know, I just looked up, um, cause
I had this in the back of my head, but Jesus'
parable of Lazarus and the rich man is interesting, and
I think we want to be careful of pulling doctrine
out of parables, right? Because, you know, Jesus's point here
is not
(53:45):
You know, essentially like, oh, these are all doctrinal things
that point to a principle. It's, it's really principle based, right?
These provocative stories to really kind of get you to
think about what Jesus is talking about. Um, but he
does mention here about the rich man, number one, that he, uh,
is in Hades, right? Or uh the grave. He is
(54:06):
in torment, and then he cries out for Abraham to
have pity on him.
Because he is in agony in this fire.
Is the language that's used there. And so, you know, again,
like there's very little detail.
But yet we do find darkness, torment, and fire to
(54:31):
be consistent language that is used in the scripture for
what uh the kind of judgment that will happen in
this place called hell that is removed from God in
His presence. So, yeah. Justin, 45 seconds.
Speaker 2 (54:46):
Yeah, I mean it, anytime we talk about these things,
you know, it's, it's important to remember, I think two
really things, two really important things. One is, is gratitude.
Like, uh, the Bible doesn't primarily use hell as a
way to measure our salvation, but when we do talk
about it, it is a place where we should be
(55:09):
grateful and go, thank you so much that you, you
didn't lead me to my own devices, and the other
is compassion.
And I don't think we can have a conversation that's
this serious in terms of these consequences and, and not
say we're talking about a real future for real neighbors
and so we should compassionately take seriously how good the
(55:29):
good news we have is and how great the gift
of salvation, not just for us but for all who
will hear and receive it.
Speaker 1 (55:36):
Carlos, thank you for your question today on Pastor's perspective,
and we are out of time. Thank you everybody for
listening and watching. We're gonna archive today's episode a little
bit later in case you want to hear it again
or share it with your friends. And if you want
to find out more about the Calvary Chapel Bible College
in Bradenton, Florida, go to Calvary Chapel Bible College.com. Justin Thomas,
thanks for joining us. Charb Roroderson, thanks for being here
(55:58):
as well. We'll talk to you tomorrow on Pastor's Perspective.
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