October 21, 2025 • 56 mins
Pastors' Perspective is a one-hour call-in program where listeners can call in and get answers to questions about the Bible, Christianity, family, and life. The program is live Monday through Friday from 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM Pacific. You can call 888-564-6173 to ask your questions.
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. The number to call
is 888-564-6173. Again, 888-564-6173. I'm Michael David in for Brian Perez.
On today's program we have Pastor Brian Broderson, Pastor Emeritus
of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa. You can also get.
More details about him at echoes of Mercy.com. Also on
(00:38):
the program we have Pastor Phil Metzger from Calvary Chapel
San Diego, and you can get more details about Pastor
Phil and Calvary Chapel San Diego at CalvarySD.com. So Pastor
Brian and Pastor Phil, welcome to the program.
Well, thank you, Michael David. It is a delight to
be in the studio with you as always. We don't
(01:00):
get to do this too often, but it's always a pleasure. Well,
the pleasure is all mine indeed, indeed. Well, Mr. Phil,
how are things going in San Diego right now?
Good, good, good. I know. I think I've been on
with you a lot the last few weeks. I'm enjoying,
I'm enjoying myself, man. This is so fun. Yes, yes, yes.
In fact, last time we were talking about the Abraham
(01:20):
Accord and uh Isaac and Ishmael. Yes, and we talked about, uh.
The Isaac is the father of the Israelites. And then
when it came to the Arabs, the question was, was
it Ishmael or was it the sons of Katura who
were the
(01:42):
Ancestors of today's Arabs. Yes, yes, and did we answer
that question? Well, both of you answer that question right now. Well,
who are the, who is the ancestor of the Arabs
in the Bible?
Well, um,
You know, it's, it's a very complicated situation when you,
when you go back, you have, of course, you have
(02:05):
Isaac and Ishmael, and then you have Jacob and Esau.
Now we're, we, we know from Esau, we know the
Edomites came from Esau and the, the Edomites sort of
disappeared over time. Uh, Herod, King Herod that we read
about in the Bible, um, he was.
Not the last Edomite, but he was the last, you know,
(02:28):
well-known Edomite. So, um, but then you have, you know,
Ishmael's a little bit hard because it, the, the Bible
only takes us so far down his
Genetic path, and then it stops, and there's, you know, princes,
there were 12 princes that came from Ishmael.
(02:50):
But then Sarah dies and Abraham marries Katura and through Katura,
Abraham has a number of sons, and some of the
names of Kara's sons would also become identified with what
we would think of today as Arabia. And so it's
(03:14):
not crystal clear.
Uh, as to just exactly what the uh origin, um,
of the, of the Arab peoples are. Now, to complicate that,
I think you have Islam, which has in some ways
lumped a lot of people together, like Egyptians, for example.
(03:34):
Egyptians speak Arabic, but they're not Arabs, they're Egyptians, but
most people think of them as Arabs because they speak Arabic.
So you got the language situation.
Um, uh, the Persians, of course, have a clear distinction
because they have the Farsi language is makes them distinct,
(03:55):
but they, you know, they are a distinct people from
the Arabs, but, but, you know, some people, uh, this
is my contention that people
They, they want to point back to Ishmael and just say,
oh yeah, the Arabs are all from Ishmael. I think
that that is not completely accurate, although there obviously is
(04:18):
some connection with Ishmael, but I don't think Ishmael is
the total explanation for the Arabic peoples. What do you think, Phil?
I know you think about this stuff all the time.
Uh, you probably this morning with that thought in my, yeah, I,
you know, I wouldn't be surprised if you were writing
a dissertation on it or something, but I was just
thinking about Katura and, and Ishmael and no, I was
(04:38):
just thinking too like that that the idea that um,
Islam is really convoluted the idea of what is like
who is Arabic. You think of like the largest, the
largest country of.
You know, Islamic country in the world is Indonesia. Indonesia.
I know that we're not even in the Middle East,
you know, yeah, so it's fascinating, fascinating stuff.
(04:59):
So Michael, that is, uh, you know, that's all you're
gonna get from it. I know we haven't solved the
riddle for you, but, uh, no, I read a book.
Nobody did. Why would we? I, I read a book
years ago where the author of the book, his whole
premise was, you know, Arabs are the Ishmaelites, and I
wasn't convinced after I read the book. I thought, OK, maybe,
(05:19):
but I think he missed out on a few things
in there, so.
Well, I think you thoroughly answered those questions. Thank you
very much, Pastor Brian and Pastor Phil. Now you can
talk to them at 888-564-6173. We're gonna start with the
Facebook questions that you can send on facebook.com/pastors perspective, but
we do like to hear the sound of your voice,
(05:41):
so give us a call at 888-564-6173.
The first one comes from Stacy in orange, and she writes, uh,
or he writes. I was wondering if the pastors could
provide some wisdom on how prayer works. I find it
hard to pray because I don't know if it makes
a difference. I know the Bible speaks about prayer as
(06:04):
a very important thing to do, but I feel like
I'm not strong enough in my relationship with God for
my prayers to be heard or have any weight.
I'm a lifelong Christian, but I'm struggling with this a
lot more now.
I haven't felt like a strong Christian since my teens,
although I think I see the Lord more genuinely now
(06:26):
in my 40s.
I also developed a hesitation to pray for something now
because I'm afraid if I put it on the table,
then the opposite will happen. I don't know what my
prayers mean. I feel resolved to just let God's will
be done, believing that he is sovereign and has a plan.
(06:47):
Are our prayers important because it matters for spiritual warfare?
Why would we need to pray for God's will to
be done? Wouldn't it be done anyway? Please educate me,
and I apologize for such confusion on my end, but
I have been struggling with this a lot, so I
thank you for this wonderful service, and I listened to
every episode on podcast since earlier this year. So, uh, Brian,
(07:11):
what would you say to Stacey?
Well, that is, I mean, it, I'm really glad to
hear that she's listening to this and that she's reaching out.
Um, and I think so many of the things that
Stacey said are just
Uh, they're just wrong.
In in the sense that um.
(07:33):
You know, there's no.
Like, you don't have to attain to a certain level
of spirituality before God hears your prayer. God, God, you know,
just think about it. I mean, God hears the prayer
of the sinner who says, Lord, forgive me, uh, and
I received Jesus. So you have no real clout at
(07:58):
that point, but God, God hears that prayer.
I think God even hears the prayers of unbelievers. Um, I,
I think the distinction is that God has obligated himself
to hear the prayer of believers, which he has not
necessarily done for unbelievers, but I think he hears their
prayers anyway.
And uh I, I can think of people who still
(08:20):
this day are unbelievers, but they've prayed and God's answered
their prayer, and you'd think, OK, now, you know, you
should believe because you have this uh testimony in your
life of God intervening for you. But uh but going
going back to Stacey, I would just wonder like,
Does does she go to church regularly? Is she part
(08:42):
of a fellowship? Is she reading her Bible personally and, and,
you know, letting the Lord speak to her? Is she
in a church where she's hearing good Bible exposition so
God can speak to her through that?
Because it sounds to me like what she needs is
just simply to know God better and to know how
much God loves her and to know how willing and
(09:03):
ready God is to listen to her prayers and as
to why we pray anyway and well won't God's will
get done even if we don't pray, God's will will
get done if we don't pray, but
It won't get done through us, and God wants to
do stuff through us. He wants us to partner with him,
so I can just say, well, you know, I'm not
gonna pray about that because God's gonna do that regardless,
(09:27):
but God invites us into this.
Relationship with him into this project of redeeming the world
with him, we get to participate, but if we don't participate, yeah,
it's gonna get done, but we're gonna miss out on
the blessings. So, Phil, I know you have some thoughts
(09:48):
on this, so.
Yeah, this is actually when we do think about more
than uh.
We were thinking about this today. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Oh gosh, I, I,
I just love everything you're saying on that, and I,
I was just rereading what she wrote into and I
was thinking, you know, so she writes in, I think
I seek the Lord more genuinely now than I did
in my 40s. Yeah. OK, well, then you're praying.
(10:11):
Yeah, if you're seeking the Lord, right, like what does
it mean to seek the Lord unless we have different
definitions of seeking God. Well, I think she said though,
I think she said she feels like she understands the
Lord better now than she used to, isn't that what
you said? Yeah, but then she, I mean, she literally,
although I think I seek God more genuinely now in
my 40s than I did as a teenager. Hi. OK, yeah, well,
(10:32):
that's right, that's.
Yeah, so, you know, at some point like what is prayer, right?
And I think Brian answered that, you know, what is prayer? Well,
you're you're seeking God. So Stacey, if you're seeking God,
then you're, there is some form of prayer, whether it's, um,
you know, now it's funny how I was thinking of
two stories when you were talking, Brian. I was thinking
first of a a biblical story, and then, well, first
(10:54):
the other story, then a biblical story. There's a famous
um
Kind of event that happened when one of the very
first kind of modern missionaries went out, William Carey. He's
a British guy and
The, the belief of the day was that if God
wanted to save people that were not saved, then he
would just do it. Yeah, exactly like he would, you know,
and that was kind of one of the famous things
(11:16):
when William Kere was like, I wanna go out and
reach the lost. Somebody stood up and said, you know,
if God wanted to reach the uh the heathen, he'll
do that all by himself, and he doesn't need you. Um,
but that's a hugely, that's a just a a massively
misguided idea of what does it mean that we're in
partnership with God.
Of course he does the saving. Of course it's his power.
(11:36):
It's his work of transformation, and he's using people. And
so the Bible story I was thinking of was John
chapter 2, when Jesus turned water or wine from water,
water into wine, and we're told that he, he asked
the servants to fill the pots with water and then
bring them to him and then he turned that into wine.
(11:56):
And you think, in that moment, there's only one group
of people that knew what happened. They were partnered with God.
God did the whole miracle. He did everything, but they
knew that it was His power. And I just think
like in prayer, I get to be a part of
what God's doing. And, and so I, I, you know,
I would say that when I hear somebody say, well,
I don't think prayer works, I think two things are happening.
(12:19):
Either one, you just don't pray.
Or 2, you prayed for like a little bit, and
it didn't happen the way you wanted, so you gave up.
And prayer is not twisting God's arm. Prayer's twisting your
arm a little bit more than God's arm. Let's be real.
Prayer changes me. I don't change God. I get on
his page, not him on my page. But when I
(12:40):
do get on his page, golly, I mean, we could
talk the whole rest of the hour about answered prayer. Seriously,
we could talk about it, and, and, and I know
Brian and I have been friends a long, long time.
I could say this, I think with authority, with you, Brian.
I know I can say this about me, we're not
special people. We don't have special access, but God has
answered so many prayers in our lives. And, um, boy,
I really, Stacey, I, I hope you get back to praying, um,
(13:03):
it's worth it. Keep seeking the Lord in prayer. And
that and that idea that you just touched on, Phil,
I mean, that's the one that Stacey needs to really
get beyond like somehow she's not worthy enough or, you know,
her life is too small or insignificant.
Why would God want to hear her prayer or why
(13:23):
would God be interested in answering her prayer? And the
reason is that uh you're his child, he loves you,
he created you, he has a plan and purpose for
your life, and you know, he just wants to be
in fellowship with you and prayer, you know, the probably the.
(13:46):
The greatest reason you, you touched on it, Phil, for,
for praying, like you said, it's not.
We're not doing anything to God. It's not like God's like, OK,
I'll change my mind, you know, these guys, uh, I
wanted to do it the other way, but now they're,
you know, they really got me in a bind and I,
I guess I'll have to go with what they say.
(14:07):
You know, that's not happening. What's happening is we are
getting changed. We are getting transformed, and if nothing else,
we're just getting to be with God as as we pray.
I, I wanted to add to that right there cause
I was thinking like, I think prayer seems a little
transactional for people, but that's it right there. It's like, I,
(14:29):
I got, I got 4 kids. I just like to
get to talk to them. It doesn't have, I don't
care what we're talking about. I just love getting to
talk to him. That's funny to hear what, what's going on.
I love when a grandkid wants to just talk. There's
nothing better in the world, so.
We have to not think of prayer as so transactional,
like God just wants to, you know, this or we
need that or whatever. It's like, dude, when you're in
(14:49):
love with someone, you just want to talk to them.
Great answers, great answers, Pastor Brian and Pastor Phil. Uh,
thank you, Stacey, for contacting us from Orange on the Facebook.com/
Pastor's perspective page. Um, also, and we're listening, I, I
assume you're listening on the Apple Podcast or the Spotify podcast.
You can listen there for the pastor's perspective program and
(15:11):
other places as well. Uh, let's take one more Facebook
question before we go to the phones at 888-564-6173, and
this is from, uh, Emily.
In Rancho Santa Margarita, she says, she writes, I am
a Christian, but recently I have been invited to study
the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses. It has been hard to
(15:32):
say no to them as they are all persistent and friendly.
What can you advise about how to proceed? And we'll
start with Phil on that one. What would you say
to uh Emily?
Well, Emily, I think, you know, I mean, there's relationships
that get formed and friendships and all that. So what
I'm gonna say is kind of sounds a little bit like, oh,
it sounds too easy, right? So the, the easy, the
(15:54):
simple answer to that is, no, I'm not, I don't
think you need to be in a situation where you
go studying the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses. I would, and
here's why. And or here would be my caveats. If
you felt called by God to be in a place
where these are friends and you want to expose them
to the truth of who Jesus is.
Then I would say that's different. But when you, when
(16:15):
you use the phrase to go study the Bible, it
seems a little bit like, you know, and, and in
respect to them, they have their agenda. Uh, we just
disagree with their agenda, we disagree with their view of Jesus,
we believe it's a different Jesus.
Because of that, I think studying the Bible is gonna
be a major conflict. It's either gonna be pressure on
you to conform to them, or you're gonna have to
(16:35):
be pressuring them. And if that's not what the point
of that gathering is, it's probably not gonna be, like,
it might be easier to say no now than it
would be later down the road.
All right. Yeah.
Uh that's great, and I think too you have to,
you have to
Be aware that like, like Phil said, there is an agenda.
(16:56):
I mean, Jehovah's Witnesses have an agenda and the agenda
is you need to get people into the Watchtower Bible
and Tract Society. So I, I'm not saying that they
cannot genuinely become your friend, but if they're inviting you
to study, they're basically looking to convert you to their views.
(17:19):
And unless you have a really good biblical foundation yourself,
you're gonna find that you're gonna be getting tripped up
because they know their stuff, and they know just enough
of the Bible.
To be dangerous for somebody who doesn't know enough of
(17:39):
the Bible, because they'll tell you things and you'll be like,
oh wait, I didn't know that, and then they'll come
with something else real quick, and then they'll come with
something else and they give the impression that, you know,
they've really got this down. Well, what they actually have
down is their ideas. So they've really worked hard on
just sort of memorizing, you know, what their ideas are.
(18:00):
But those ideas are in conflict with um historical orthodox
biblical Christianity and like Phil said, main there's a number
of issues, but the main issue is the person of Jesus,
who is Jesus, and they're gonna try to, they're gonna
make a beeline to try to convince you that Jesus
is not equal with the Father, that he is a,
(18:25):
a lesser God.
And this is a massive problem that you don't want
to subject yourself to that. Um, I, I would just
assume not being ready for the kind of battle that
that can be. And I understand they use their own
Bible too, is that right? They do. They have their
own version of of the Bible. It's called the New
(18:48):
World Translation, which is not really a translation, it's a fraudulent.
Uh, translation and they've, they've kind of just adjusted it
to their doctrine. So, you know, they've only gone in
and uh the places where they, they wanted to read
a certain way, they've actually um reinterpreted uh to suit
their
(19:09):
Their position. All right, well, very great answers to Pastor
Phil and Pastor Brian, uh, to Emily from Rancho Santa
Margarita who contacted us on, uh, Facebook.com/pastors perspective, but we're
gonna go to the phones now at 888-564-6173 if you
have a question for Brian or Pastor Phil. Uh, let's
(19:30):
start with, uh, Richard who contacted us at 888-564-6173. Richard,
how can we help you?
Good afternoon, uh, pastors. My question has to do with
the upcoming proposition here in California, the special electionOP 50, and, uh,
what can you pastors, uh, uh, give advice or, uh,
(19:53):
give light to as far as um how important this
proposition is? What are your thoughts?
All right, uh, we'll start with Brian. What do you think?
Well, Richard, I mean, you know, we are not so
much in the business of
(20:14):
Answering
These type of politically oriented questions, you know, some, some questions, uh,
that are somewhat political, they overlap into moral and biblical
um issues. So, you know, we, we obviously will have
to speak on those because the Bible might speak on them. Um,
(20:35):
when it comes to voting and different propositions and things
like that, um, you know, depending on what they are.
Uh, there, there isn't necessarily a biblical perspective on it. So,
so I don't know that there is a, a biblical
perspective on um Prop 50. I know what I think
(20:56):
about it, and I know how I'm gonna vote in
regard to it, but, um, and then again, you know,
sort of the are believers required to vote. Um, I,
I think, you know, we have a
A privilege to vote. Not everybody gets to vote in
the world today, the countries where there, there is no
(21:18):
vote that you just, you just do what the government
tells you, and that's the end of it. So I
think the fact that we do have the uh opportunity
to vote and our vote does mean something, I think
that wisdom would say, yeah, you know, we should vote. Uh,
and you know, didn't mean you have to vote on
every single thing, but some things are more important than others, so.
(21:39):
Um, but when it comes to like, hey, you should
vote this way on this or oh, don't vote on that, um,
I have never really felt like that was my position
to tell people what to do. I think we need to, as,
as grownups, we need to do our research, we need
to understand what the issues are, we need to think
(22:00):
for ourselves and decide for ourselves with.
Scripture influencing the decisions that we make.
All right, uh, Phil, Phil, go ahead. It's a, it's a,
it's an interesting time for sure, um, Ryan, and I
think that was a great answer. I, I don't have
anything to add to Prop 50 other than um.
You know, there's such a, uh, like, you know, like
(22:22):
for everybody listening, you know, there's there's gonna be plenty
of churches that'll tell you what to do and how
to vote, and, you know, if you don't do this, then,
you know, you're not Christian or whatever, um, you know,
I think that's one of the things I really appreciate
about my heritage, my Christian heritage has been
Being under pastors who kind of just stayed really centered.
(22:47):
It's not that those things don't matter. They do. They
really do. And I think, I think Brian spoke to
that like, voting is a privilege, not a lot of,
not everybody in the world has that privilege, so it
is a great privilege, but I, I think also we
just have to remember that like for us as pastors
like we, we feel this really high sense of calling
to help people to know Christ and um and then
(23:08):
to like.
Become thinking Christians. I think that's something I say a
lot at our church, like, we want to develop and
disciple thinking Christians so that when you're dealing with a
nuanced situation, you know, how to vote for this, what
to do about that? Do I say this? Do I
not say that? That you don't need me to tell
you what to do, but then you've learned how to
rely on the Holy Spirit, know the word of God,
to be able to make good and wise biblically driven
(23:32):
Christian decisions. So I think I'm more interested in helping
people develop those thinking processes than I am to saying,
You have to do this. I know that my ministry,
and this is true for you too, Brian, my ministry,
I hope is to people on both sides of these
kinds of things, whatever the issue is, whether they're Democrat, Republican, yes, no, whatever,
(23:52):
they don't vote, they do vote, they care about voting
more than anything in the world, they don't care about it.
I want to reach them with the gospel. I think,
I think we all need to have the opportunity to
know Jesus, so.
I'm most concerned with keeping myself in that big Pastor
Chuck used to say that fish in the largest pond
you can, and, uh, I want to fish in that
large pond and not isolate myself to one particular group.
(24:13):
Now Phil, I want to ask you, do you think
sometimes politics can become like a religion? So I mean
they're they are.
Religion, yeah. I mean, I mean that politics is the
new religion, but basically I'm gonna act out my Christian
faith by doing what the political party says more than
what the Bible says, would you say? I mean, it
can be and I and I think, you know, I
(24:34):
think this is what we're all kind of facing right
now is this idea that like, can you, can I,
can Christianity hijack a particular or really take control of
a particular party? And in the end, the answer is
gonna be no, you know, yeah, especially when you look
at the book of Revelation, if you take it literally
like we do.
You see that the there's a political power that is
willing to associate itself with religious power as long as
(24:56):
it's expedient and the minute it is not, they dump
that religious power and I think that's something we always
have to be kind of cognizant of that there's, you know,
it's great when when any like when any political, you know,
power or any government uh is aligning itself with Christian value,
but we can't mistake.
We, we don't, as a Christian, I'm not about value alone.
(25:18):
I'm about the fact that I'm born again by the
cross of Jesus Christ. It's not my values that will
save me. And so I think, yeah, it is possible.
I appreciate when we do have, you know, systems in
place that are considerate of God, considerate of morality, considerate
of values, but I'm very aware of the fact that
it is still a relationship with Jesus through the cross,
(25:40):
that a person is born again, and no political system.
Can hijack that. That makes a lot of sense. Great answers,
Pastor Phil and Pastor Brian, and thank you, um, uh,
Richard from Beverly Hills who called in at 888-564-6173. Let's
see if we can get another one before the break
and talk to Chris in Los Angeles. Chris, welcome to
the program.
(26:01):
Thank you, gentlemen. Uh, pastors, first, I'd like to mention that, um,
I think it's in Sir John. We're admonished to not
give any greeting to those who bring a different doctrine, um,
that we are partakers of their evil deeds if we
do so. This is in reference to the last caller
(26:24):
before the first phone call, and, uh, I just wanted
you to maybe speak on that a little bit.
Uh, wait, uh,
The last caller was that the Jehovah's Witness reference? Oh yes,
that was a Facebook question, right, right, right, yeah, yeah,
I mean, you know, the passage in 3 John there is,
(26:45):
is basically telling us not to.
Be complicit or not to, not to embrace. I, I
think it's that the idea is, um, you know, the
old translation says do not bid them Godspeed, which I
think what the apostle is warning about is in in
(27:06):
embracing of them as a brother or a sister. So, um,
like for example today with um Latter-day Saints, the Mormons.
Um, there's a big push within Mormonism to, to be
recognized as a Christian denomination.
(27:26):
And so some people would say, yeah, that's we should
do that, and, you know, God bless our Mormon brothers
and sisters, let's, you know, join hands with them and
let's all worship the Lord. Um, I, I don't, I
think John's passage is actually referring to that type of
a thing. We cannot do that because they have a
(27:48):
doctrine that is in conflict with the biblical doctrine about
who Jesus actually is.
And so for me to say, oh yeah, you know,
they're believers too, let's all join hands and march forward
together for the kingdom, um, that would be the equivalent
(28:08):
of what John is saying not to do.
Does that make sense, Chris?
Yes, it does, it does. Um, you, you probably see
I had a follow-up question unrelated though. Yes, um, in,
in Revelation 13, we read about the beast that comes
up out of the sea having two horns like a lamb. Well, we,
(28:32):
we know that a lot of theologians might say that
the United States has no place or mention in end-time studies.
But could this be a reference to the United States,
saying that the horns like a lamb could be referring
to uh a Christian nation or or a nation that
(28:55):
accepts the gospel.
And the fact that there are two horns, could that
be a reference to the two leaders of the country,
or is that a stretch? That is a great question,
and I think we're going to take that at the
second half of the program. Chris, can you hang on
through the break? Is that OK? Will that work for you?
Can you hang on for us?
(29:16):
Sure, Michael. All right, great. All right, well, Chris from
Los Angeles is gonna hang on for us for the
answer to that question about Revelation chapter 13, and, uh,
we will answer them in the second half of the program.
If you'd like to talk to Pastor Phil Metzger or
Pastor Brian Broderson with your question, you can call at 888-564-61.
173 again that's 888-564-6173. Whether you want to talk about
(29:40):
the beast that comes up like a lamb in Revelation
chapter 13 or anything else on the Bible, the Christian
faith or how to live the Christian life, give us
a call 888-564-6173. That's 888-564-6173.
(30:16):
Hello and welcome back to the second half of Pastor's Perspective.
I'm Michael David in for Brian Perez. You can call
us at 888-564-6173. Again, 888-564-6173. On today's program we have
Pastor Brian Broderson and Pastor Phil Metzger, and before we
went to the program.
We were talking to Chris in Los Angeles and he
(30:38):
was talking about Revelation chapter 13 verse 11, I believe,
where it says, uh, then I saw another beast coming
up out of the earth and he had two horns
like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. Chris, that
was the verse you were talking about, right?
It's correct, Michael. Yes. All right, great. Uh, we'll start
with Pastor Brian. What about that beast? It could that
(30:59):
be the United States and
Um, yeah, Chris, I, I don't think so. I do
think that those are descriptions of actual, uh, you know, people.
I think the, the first beast rising up out of
the sea is the one that we commonly refer to
as the anti-Christ. And there I think there is some
(31:20):
biblical basis for that. I mean, John the apostle tells
us in his letter, um.
You have heard that the Antichrist is coming, and then
he says, but already many anti antichrists have arisen, so
he identifies that there's one, there is the antichrist. And
(31:40):
so all that to say, I think, I think we
can call this person the Antichrist, but um there's also
the false prophet and later on in Revelation, it makes
it clear who these two are, one, the beast and
the other is the false prophet. So I think the
Um, the horns like a lamb, give him the appearance,
(32:02):
it's kind of like a, a, a wolf in sheep's clothing.
That's really, you know, Jesus used that illustration, and that's
what's being spoken of here. Um, uh, horns like a lamb,
but yet, uh, speaks like the dragon. And so this
is the representative. What, what a lot of people don't often.
(32:24):
realize that there there are in the sense of Antichrist,
there are two of them. There's one of them who
is the prominent one, and then there's the other one
who is the PR person for the prominent one. That's
what the false prophet is. He's the one who says, um,
let's make an image.
(32:45):
Uh, he has power to give life to the image. Now,
you know, we're living in a time when a lot
of people say, oh, you know, this stuff is just,
you know, you, yeah, I mean, who knows what it means?
Nobody really knows what it means. It might have happened
back in the time of Nero, and so on and
so forth. And, OK, fine, but I don't think so.
I think we're, I think we're talking about some really
(33:05):
crazy crazy stuff that is gonna come to um a
fulfillment here in the world, um, in, in the future. So,
That's my
Perspective, Phil, what do you? Nope, I think that's a
great perspective. I think that I, it's funny, I, when I,
when I hear people say like, or I don't really
(33:25):
hear it anymore, but I used to hear it. Oh man,
this stuff is too fantastic to believe that it could
be true. The truth is, is I think our, ours
as a society we're more poised for false prophet, anti-Christ
than we've ever been. Like we we buy into stuff
so fast now in ways that I think we.
I don't know, maybe I have a nostalgic view of
our past, but I think we're just like so we're
(33:48):
just grabbing on so much these days. Yeah, well, I mean,
you know, whether it's ideas or if it's, you know, figures, people, um, politicians,
you know, just the idea now in people's minds that somehow,
you know, this person is gonna fix everything. This person
is gonna
(34:08):
Save us or this party or this ideology or whatever. Um, yeah,
I mean that's, it's pretty wild that we're living in
a time.
Where that is now sort of what a lot of
people are thinking. So like you said, Phil, I mean
it it we're just sort of sitting ducks for the
(34:30):
antichrist to come along and say, all right, well, here
I am, I'll fix it all for you. Well, like I, I,
I was even like, I was thinking that somebody told
me this and I looked up, it was true that
there's more people today that believe in the flat earth
theory than there were before we had the internet and like.
Yeah, like we have all this abundant, you know, information
(34:51):
and more people believe that kind of conspiracy. So you
think like information hasn't solved our, you know, our drive, uh,
for like conspiracy. We love it even more, I think.
And there's a whole bunch of people that think men
can become women and women can become men and I
mean it's like, OK, what, you know, who in their
right mind takes this stuff, yeah.
(35:13):
Yeah, so, uh, you know, because it used to be
like looking at, you know, all the prophecies about Antichrist
and stuff. Oh, it just seems so fantastical and how
could this ever happen and nobody would ever believe this stuff.
It's like, really? OK. I think like you said, I
think we're totally primed for it. And Peter Thiel, who
is a, um,
(35:34):
Billionaire, um, I think founder of PayPal and uh Elon
Musk and him, you know, partnered together. Um, interesting, Peter
Thiel is a, he, he's a profess he professes to
be a Christian. He lives in a a gay marital relationship, um,
but he has been giving lectures.
(35:57):
On the Antichrist, so he's, he's literally out telling people like, hey,
the Antichrist is just around the corner, you know, so yeah, it's,
it's crazy. Oh my goodness, wow, I was not expecting that. Wow,
it might be PayPal too, but just kidding, just kidding. No, Phil, it's, um,
(36:19):
not PayPal, it's Tesla.
Well, Chris from Los Angeles, thank you so much for
calling us with that great question at 888-564-6173. We're gonna
go from LA. I, I just wanna say that was
a that was a joke. I mean, I don't want
anybody trying to, you know, sue me over. I know.
(36:40):
I didn't mean that.
So Elon, that was a joke. Yes, yes, yes, and Peter,
that was a joke too, yes. All right, uh, Chris,
great question on Revelation 13. We're gonna go from LA
to San uh number 2 is Mission Viejo and talk
to Doug. Doug, welcome to the program.
Hello. Hello.
(37:01):
Yes, can you hear us?
Yes, I can hear you. Go ahead, ask your question.
OK, I was just turning down the radio a little bit. Hey, uh,
first of all, thanks for taking my call. I listen
to you guys all the time, Brian. I totally appreciate the, the, uh,
teachings that you've had over the many years I've listened,
so I appreciate it. Thanks, Doug. It might surprise you
(37:21):
to find out I'm actually a member of the Church
of Jesus Christ.
Well, I just wanted to pull the thread. Yeah, that's OK.
I mean, not many things surprise me these days, so,
but now let me just ask you this question though, Doug. Have,
have you ever called before?
OK, good. Yeah, cause we've talked, you know, we've had
(37:42):
a number of great conversations with people just like what
you said about yourself, yeah, so, yeah.
So yeah, I just wanted to say because I, I
do listen to you all the time. I mean, all the, myself,
I'll just speak for myself and I know I speak
for probably a lot of LDS people. We, we believe
in Jesus Christ obviously as our Lord and Savior. There's
(38:04):
no other way to get into heaven except through him.
His atonement was the essential thing that broke the bands
of death and allows us to be resurrected and forgiven
of our sins. He created the world.
And so on. So yeah, it's, it's kind of interesting
to hear when you guys talk about, um, you know,
members of, of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
(38:25):
Saints is not being Christian, so.
And you know, I heard something recently, Doug, I, I,
I don't know if I read it or I heard
somebody say it, but it was, it was really fascinating
that um
A a person like like you, it was really referring
to people like you who would essentially uh just say, yeah, I,
(38:47):
I believe just, you know, what the Bible says about Jesus,
and that there's a large number of people who simultaneously
identify as LDS but yet also say, no, I, you know,
I I believe this about Jesus.
And it was almost just like a really brief little paragraph,
so I didn't, I didn't dig any deeper into it,
(39:07):
but um, but I guess what I would
And I'm not saying that that's not possible, but, but
what I am, what I would ask you, Doug, is
like when it comes to Mormon doctrine about God, for example,
and I know this isn't in the Book of Mormon,
but it's in, um, you know, some of the writings
of Brigham Young, uh, like the idea that, um, as, uh,
(39:31):
as God.
Um
as as man is now, God once was, and as
God is now man shall be. So the idea that God,
according to Brigham Young, used to be a man, and
now he's been elevated to, you know, this, this position
(39:51):
of being God, and that's kind of where where we're
all headed. So that's that's Mormon teaching.
Would you agree with that, or would you say, no, I,
I don't, I don't believe that. Doug, what would you say?
Yeah, so I would say, yeah, I, I agree with
it to an extent. I mean, and I think, so, Brian,
(40:13):
so I really respect you and I, I know that
you are a great Christian. I think you're going to
be standing right next to Jesus Christ and all of
your sins are gonna be gone. You won't be fighting
anymore like we do in this world, and you will
be learning from Jesus Christ for eons and eons.
And uh, do you think there's an end to that
progression of learning about what he knows and finding out
(40:37):
how he created the worlds and
Well, you know, it does, the scripture does say that
we will know, now we know in part, but then
we will know even as we are known. So I
think that
Um, you know, we, we will know. I don't know
if we'll, uh, I mean, obviously God is what you
(40:58):
call omniscient, you know, he knows everything, and he knows
everything about everything and every detail that could ever be imagined.
So will we have that kind of knowledge? I'm not sure.
I do know that the one thing that we will
be learning for
Ever is uh that God will show us the riches
(41:20):
of his kindness toward us through Jesus Christ for all eternity.
That Paul says that in Ephesians, so.
Um, but then also, you know, we have the scriptures
that are, you know, of course, as a Christian, we
believe that the scriptures are true, they're absolutely true, everything
they say is true. And so what they tell us
(41:43):
about God.
Will not be contradicted.
In the future. So now we think that God wasn't a,
a person at one time who is now elevated to
a position of God, because the Bible says that God
is eternal. He has always been who he is. He
(42:03):
never was anything else. So I don't think we're gonna
step into eternity and find out.
Wow, you used to be a man. I, I didn't
know that. Why, why didn't you tell us that? Why
did you tell us, uh, instead, that from everlasting to everlasting,
you are God.
So this is where I think we would come into
(42:24):
a place of disagreement, um, you know, what does the
Bible say about God the Father? What does the Bible
say about God the Son?
And can you disagree with the Bible about the person
of God and actually be a Christian?
(42:46):
Right. And I, I think that's it exactly. Is that what,
that's what we focus on is.
Is the whole story of the New Testament is the
story about a father and a son, right? And um
and so I think that's really the focus is that we,
we believe that Jesus Christ is the son of literal
Son of God.
And that he, you know, he atoned for the sins
(43:09):
of the world to Gethsemane and on the cross, that
he's taken his place on the right hand of the Father.
So he, he literally is the Son of God. Yeah,
but does that to you, does that.
Identify him as equal with God.
So he's a joint, yeah, he calls, he says, I'm a,
(43:30):
he says he is an heir and that we will
be joint heirs with him. Yeah, yeah. But like say
John one, for example, in the beginning was the word,
the word was with God and the word was God.
And then the word became flesh and dwelt among us,
so John's telling us that the word who was with God.
But also was God became a man. So I, I
(43:55):
don't know, I, I, I'm, it just slips my mind
right now, but do, do, um, Latter-day saints believe that
God is triune? Do they believe that Father, Son, and
Holy Spirit are one.
God
With distinct persons, but yet one god, all equal.
(44:16):
In the, not in the sense that you're thinking of,
of the Trinity, but we believe there that there is
God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost,
and that they're one in purpose. OK, yeah. Yeah, see,
one in purpose, that's a different thing, and Jehovah's Witnesses
believe that too. They would say, you know, they're one
in purpose, but we're talking about one in nature, and
that's the biblical claim that Jesus is one.
(44:39):
Um, you know, like Jesus said, he that has seen
me has seen the Father. How can you say, show
us the Father? Um, you know, Jesus says that to
Philip in John 14. So, um,
I, you know, Doug, I mean, I, I appreciate the
fact that you listen. I think that's amazing, and I'm
so glad you're listening today and I, and I respect
(45:00):
you for calling in, and I think it's great to
have these kinds of conversations, but I would still say
that based on what you're saying, you
Are
A good Mormon.
But you're, you can't be a Christian and embrace Mormon
theology when it comes to the person of God, and
(45:22):
also the way of salvation, because if there's any
If there's anything that you contribute to your salvation, if
there's anything other than just simply Jesus died, rose again,
I believe that, that's the basis for my salvation.
Then you're trying to have a salvation that is not
(45:43):
one that the Bible, um,
Teachers
Well, thank you for taking my call. I appreciate it. I, I, uh,
you know, like I said, I agree with virtually all
the things that you say. I love the way you
guys go through the scriptures and the defense that you
make for them. And I, I'll just say I know
(46:03):
a lot of LDS people, and they are as Christian
as they come in my mind. OK, well.
All right, Doug, thanks for calling. Yes, thank you for
calling Doug from Mission Viejo at 888-564-6173. Phil, did you
want to say anything about that? I mean, no, other
than I think what a great conversation. It was just
(46:24):
enjoyable to get to be a part of, I think, boy,
this is, man, if we can have conversations like that,
that that would be great. It really would, and you know,
just thankful for Doug that he would, you know, that
he was willing to, you know, call in with a
Uh, a disagreement, but he, but it was in such
a gracious and kind manner, and I'm so glad that
(46:47):
he's listening and um pray that you continue to listen, Doug. Amen.
That was great. Yes, thank you, Doug, for calling from
Mission Viejo. We go from Mission Viejo to Lynnwood and
talk to Rayna. Rayna, welcome to the program.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
Yes, hi, my name is Serena.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
How are you so sorry, Serena, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (47:09):
Yes, uh, first of all, I wanna give my honor
to God on today and to all of you and to,
if I remember right, uh, Brian Brodeson, if, um, I
was going to, uh, Pastor Chuck Smith's Church. OK, good.
And um, yes, and at that time we were baptizing
out in the ocean. Mhm.
(47:31):
And I was baptized in the ocean and at that
time that I was baptized in the ocean, I, I,
I can't remember it was something cove or whatever. Pirate's
Cove remember Pirate's Cove. I remember holding my husband's hand
and it was so you guys had a joint hands
so that.
(47:51):
Brian Broderson was on my right side, and I was
holding my husband's hand with my left hand and another
pastor was on the other side. That's when we were
going to church with Pastor Chuck Smith. But anyway, I
have a question. Over the years, my husband has been
deceased now, going on 9 years, and we have one daughter.
(48:15):
And she's a Muslim.
So I'm kind of having a hard time trying to
get her to come back to what she was raised.
And I know the Bible says clean up a child
in the way that he should go when he is old,
he shall not depart from it. So, um she just
recently started coming to the house and bringing her prayer
(48:36):
cloth and everything, and she's praying like, well, mom, I
need to pray. And I'm like, well, wait a minute,
before you start praying to Allah and all of that.
I need you to tell me who do you believe
that Jesus is. And she says, Well, Muslims, mom, believe
that Jesus was nothing more. When she said that it,
(48:57):
it hurt me. She said, we believe that Jesus was
nothing more than a messenger.
I like to know how can I, what can I say,
what can I do? because it's not looking like I'm
gonna be able to turn this around. I'm praying for
her every day. She's Muslim, she's covered up from head
(49:17):
to toe, which I don't have a problem with that
because she's more respectable to her body than most um
women are, you know, she's all covered up, but it's hard.
I told her, you can't pray in my house anymore.
And it kind of hurt me, but I told her,
you can't. She says, Well, I'll go outside and pray.
(49:40):
So she started praying in the driveway and thinks she
has her own house. So now she eventually have stopped
praying over here, but I did let her know that
she could not bow down and pray to Allah.
In my home, and I want to know your views
on that because it's only me and her. I have
no other children. I'm 71 and she's getting ready to
(50:02):
be 45. I wanted to see if you know what
Muslims believe, because when she said we believe that he,
Jesus was nothing more than a messenger, then I, I
love my daughter with all my heart and I will always,
but that has taken me.
(50:23):
It hurts my heart because I want her to make
it to heaven. Yes,
Speaker 1 (50:28):
yes, that's very important. Um, we'll I'll hear from both
of you, Brian and Phil. They'll start with, uh, start with,
go ahead and start with Brian, and we'll hear from
Phil too. Go ahead, um.
Yeah, I, I was wondering if is your daughter married?
Is that how she became a Muslim? Is that through
marriage, or? Oh,
Speaker 2 (50:46):
she's single. When she was raised in the church. She
was raised in, in God's word. She was in the church,
and she was strong. She was even, uh, missionary work.
After that, as she started getting older, she became a Rastafarian.
She started hanging around with, uh, a group of people from.
Uh, wherever the Rastas are, I can't remember what Jamaica,
(51:09):
that country, Jamaica. So she was a, a proclaimed Rastafarian.
And then after that, I seen her switch to a Muslim.
So it went from Christianity to Rastafarian, so now it
looks like it's almost no turning around and you know, uh, I,
I welcome her at my house because she's my only child,
(51:32):
but
What I'm concerned is when she said that Muslims believe
that Jesus was nothing more than a messenger, I told
her I said you can't bow down in my house.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
OK, fair enough.
Yeah, um, yeah, I mean, it, it's, yeah, it's, it's
a little, it's a little bit more complicated what Muslims
believe about Jesus. Um, they don't, they don't believe that
he is God, the son, uh, they do believe that
Muhammad is the greatest of all of the prophets, but, uh,
the irony is that the uh the Quran.
(52:08):
Uh, has Jesus in the most interesting places. He's, he's
the one who's coming back to judge the world. He
was sinless, he performed miracles, um, you know, Muhammad didn't
do any of that stuff. And so it, it's, it's
just a bit perplexing. It just shows you that the
Quran itself is, is a book that's just a kind
of a compilation of a bunch of, uh, ideas and
(52:30):
stories that existed at the time that it was, it
was put together, um.
So it, you know, it, it's unfortunate that she's she's
gone down this road, um, we have a book that
we recommend called um Glad News God Loves You, my
(52:52):
Muslim friend written by a friend of ours, uh, Sammy
Tannago who is, um, he's Egyptian and he studied at
the Islamic universities in Cairo and so forth.
And uh he's written a great book that really kind
of walks through all of these different questions about who
Jesus is, who God is, what salvation is, and things
(53:13):
like that.
So, um, I would recommend getting that book or we
could help you get a hold of it if you,
if you would like us to.
It's um
You know, there's a lot to this, but of course,
remember that Muhammed.
(53:35):
Who came onto the world scene in the 600s. So
we're talking about 600 years after the time of Jesus. So, um,
and he made all kinds of claims and the Quran
makes all kinds of claims that contradict what the Bible
already said. So Jesus said that he's the way the
truth and the life. No one can come to the
(53:55):
Father except through him. Jesus, the Bible claims that Jesus
is the final revelation of God. There is no more.
There's nothing further coming.
There's not gonna be another prophet who's gonna come, you know,
the Bible Bible teaches all of that. So, uh, sadly
through whatever influence your, your daughter's just, you know, she's embraced, um,
(54:17):
false teaching, Phil.
I just wonder if like her embrace of that is
based on like doctrine, like teaching information, or is it
like kind of more like relational? Is it connected to friendships?
Is it connected to, you know, kind of jumping from
one thing to the next to the next speaks more
to that than it does like, I'm seeking truth and discovering,
you know, the truth. I think Serena, and I won't
(54:39):
hear the music, so Michael, feel free to cut me off.
We'll hear it in a little bit, so go ahead. OK, uh, yeah,
just so you know, shout at me, um.
I think, you know, Serena, that the main thing that
you said that you're doing that is so good that
I want to encourage you to keep doing is pray
for your daughter. Um, we don't, we don't necessarily like
You know, when your daughter is praying to Allah, we
just believe she's she's praying to no one, that's not God,
(55:00):
so that that's not a danger in your home, uh,
but you know, you wanna keep relationship with your daughter,
but you also wanna like
You know, like, realize that I think like praying for
her is gonna be more effective and more impactful than
anything else you could do. It might not be just
you being able to answer a question, but you just
keep loving her, loving her, loving her. You got one daughter,
(55:20):
keep loving her and keep showing her what Jesus looks
like here in the world, and pray for her, pray
for her, pray for her. Um, the book would be
great for you to get a good understanding of kind
of what is.
You know what is that teaching? So I think that's
a great recommendation. Yes, and you can get that book
Glad News God Loves You, My Muslim Friend by Sammy
Tnago at Amazon as well as anywhere you find fine books. So, uh,
(55:45):
Serena from Lynnwood, thank you for your call today. Pastor
Brian Broderson, Pastor Phil Metzger, thank you for joining us
on the program, and we will see you next time
on Pastor's Perspective. Good night.
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. The number to call
is 888-564-6173. Again, 888-564-6173. I'm Michael David in for Brian Perez.
On today's program we have Pastor Brian Broderson, Pastor Emeritus
of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa. You can also get.
More details about him at echoes of Mercy.com. Also on
(00:38):
the program we have Pastor Phil Metzger from Calvary Chapel
San Diego, and you can get more details about Pastor
Phil and Calvary Chapel San Diego at CalvarySD.com. So Pastor
Brian and Pastor Phil, welcome to the program.
Well, thank you, Michael David. It is a delight to
be in the studio with you as always. We don't
(01:00):
get to do this too often, but it's always a pleasure. Well,
the pleasure is all mine indeed, indeed. Well, Mr. Phil,
how are things going in San Diego right now?
Good, good, good. I know. I think I've been on
with you a lot the last few weeks. I'm enjoying,
I'm enjoying myself, man. This is so fun. Yes, yes, yes.
In fact, last time we were talking about the Abraham
(01:20):
Accord and uh Isaac and Ishmael. Yes, and we talked about, uh.
The Isaac is the father of the Israelites. And then
when it came to the Arabs, the question was, was
it Ishmael or was it the sons of Katura who
were the
(01:42):
Ancestors of today's Arabs. Yes, yes, and did we answer
that question? Well, both of you answer that question right now. Well,
who are the, who is the ancestor of the Arabs
in the Bible?
Well, um,
You know, it's, it's a very complicated situation when you,
when you go back, you have, of course, you have
(02:05):
Isaac and Ishmael, and then you have Jacob and Esau.
Now we're, we, we know from Esau, we know the
Edomites came from Esau and the, the Edomites sort of
disappeared over time. Uh, Herod, King Herod that we read
about in the Bible, um, he was.
Not the last Edomite, but he was the last, you know,
(02:28):
well-known Edomite. So, um, but then you have, you know,
Ishmael's a little bit hard because it, the, the Bible
only takes us so far down his
Genetic path, and then it stops, and there's, you know, princes,
there were 12 princes that came from Ishmael.
(02:50):
But then Sarah dies and Abraham marries Katura and through Katura,
Abraham has a number of sons, and some of the
names of Kara's sons would also become identified with what
we would think of today as Arabia. And so it's
(03:14):
not crystal clear.
Uh, as to just exactly what the uh origin, um,
of the, of the Arab peoples are. Now, to complicate that,
I think you have Islam, which has in some ways
lumped a lot of people together, like Egyptians, for example.
(03:34):
Egyptians speak Arabic, but they're not Arabs, they're Egyptians, but
most people think of them as Arabs because they speak Arabic.
So you got the language situation.
Um, uh, the Persians, of course, have a clear distinction
because they have the Farsi language is makes them distinct,
(03:55):
but they, you know, they are a distinct people from
the Arabs, but, but, you know, some people, uh, this
is my contention that people
They, they want to point back to Ishmael and just say,
oh yeah, the Arabs are all from Ishmael. I think
that that is not completely accurate, although there obviously is
(04:18):
some connection with Ishmael, but I don't think Ishmael is
the total explanation for the Arabic peoples. What do you think, Phil?
I know you think about this stuff all the time.
Uh, you probably this morning with that thought in my, yeah, I,
you know, I wouldn't be surprised if you were writing
a dissertation on it or something, but I was just
thinking about Katura and, and Ishmael and no, I was
(04:38):
just thinking too like that that the idea that um,
Islam is really convoluted the idea of what is like
who is Arabic. You think of like the largest, the
largest country of.
You know, Islamic country in the world is Indonesia. Indonesia.
I know that we're not even in the Middle East,
you know, yeah, so it's fascinating, fascinating stuff.
(04:59):
So Michael, that is, uh, you know, that's all you're
gonna get from it. I know we haven't solved the
riddle for you, but, uh, no, I read a book.
Nobody did. Why would we? I, I read a book
years ago where the author of the book, his whole
premise was, you know, Arabs are the Ishmaelites, and I
wasn't convinced after I read the book. I thought, OK, maybe,
(05:19):
but I think he missed out on a few things
in there, so.
Well, I think you thoroughly answered those questions. Thank you
very much, Pastor Brian and Pastor Phil. Now you can
talk to them at 888-564-6173. We're gonna start with the
Facebook questions that you can send on facebook.com/pastors perspective, but
we do like to hear the sound of your voice,
(05:41):
so give us a call at 888-564-6173.
The first one comes from Stacy in orange, and she writes, uh,
or he writes. I was wondering if the pastors could
provide some wisdom on how prayer works. I find it
hard to pray because I don't know if it makes
a difference. I know the Bible speaks about prayer as
(06:04):
a very important thing to do, but I feel like
I'm not strong enough in my relationship with God for
my prayers to be heard or have any weight.
I'm a lifelong Christian, but I'm struggling with this a
lot more now.
I haven't felt like a strong Christian since my teens,
although I think I see the Lord more genuinely now
(06:26):
in my 40s.
I also developed a hesitation to pray for something now
because I'm afraid if I put it on the table,
then the opposite will happen. I don't know what my
prayers mean. I feel resolved to just let God's will
be done, believing that he is sovereign and has a plan.
(06:47):
Are our prayers important because it matters for spiritual warfare?
Why would we need to pray for God's will to
be done? Wouldn't it be done anyway? Please educate me,
and I apologize for such confusion on my end, but
I have been struggling with this a lot, so I
thank you for this wonderful service, and I listened to
every episode on podcast since earlier this year. So, uh, Brian,
(07:11):
what would you say to Stacey?
Well, that is, I mean, it, I'm really glad to
hear that she's listening to this and that she's reaching out.
Um, and I think so many of the things that
Stacey said are just
Uh, they're just wrong.
In in the sense that um.
(07:33):
You know, there's no.
Like, you don't have to attain to a certain level
of spirituality before God hears your prayer. God, God, you know,
just think about it. I mean, God hears the prayer
of the sinner who says, Lord, forgive me, uh, and
I received Jesus. So you have no real clout at
(07:58):
that point, but God, God hears that prayer.
I think God even hears the prayers of unbelievers. Um, I,
I think the distinction is that God has obligated himself
to hear the prayer of believers, which he has not
necessarily done for unbelievers, but I think he hears their
prayers anyway.
And uh I, I can think of people who still
(08:20):
this day are unbelievers, but they've prayed and God's answered
their prayer, and you'd think, OK, now, you know, you
should believe because you have this uh testimony in your
life of God intervening for you. But uh but going
going back to Stacey, I would just wonder like,
Does does she go to church regularly? Is she part
(08:42):
of a fellowship? Is she reading her Bible personally and, and,
you know, letting the Lord speak to her? Is she
in a church where she's hearing good Bible exposition so
God can speak to her through that?
Because it sounds to me like what she needs is
just simply to know God better and to know how
much God loves her and to know how willing and
(09:03):
ready God is to listen to her prayers and as
to why we pray anyway and well won't God's will
get done even if we don't pray, God's will will
get done if we don't pray, but
It won't get done through us, and God wants to
do stuff through us. He wants us to partner with him,
so I can just say, well, you know, I'm not
gonna pray about that because God's gonna do that regardless,
(09:27):
but God invites us into this.
Relationship with him into this project of redeeming the world
with him, we get to participate, but if we don't participate, yeah,
it's gonna get done, but we're gonna miss out on
the blessings. So, Phil, I know you have some thoughts
(09:48):
on this, so.
Yeah, this is actually when we do think about more
than uh.
We were thinking about this today. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Oh gosh, I, I,
I just love everything you're saying on that, and I,
I was just rereading what she wrote into and I
was thinking, you know, so she writes in, I think
I seek the Lord more genuinely now than I did
in my 40s. Yeah. OK, well, then you're praying.
(10:11):
Yeah, if you're seeking the Lord, right, like what does
it mean to seek the Lord unless we have different
definitions of seeking God. Well, I think she said though,
I think she said she feels like she understands the
Lord better now than she used to, isn't that what
you said? Yeah, but then she, I mean, she literally,
although I think I seek God more genuinely now in
my 40s than I did as a teenager. Hi. OK, yeah, well,
(10:32):
that's right, that's.
Yeah, so, you know, at some point like what is prayer, right?
And I think Brian answered that, you know, what is prayer? Well,
you're you're seeking God. So Stacey, if you're seeking God,
then you're, there is some form of prayer, whether it's, um,
you know, now it's funny how I was thinking of
two stories when you were talking, Brian. I was thinking
first of a a biblical story, and then, well, first
(10:54):
the other story, then a biblical story. There's a famous
um
Kind of event that happened when one of the very
first kind of modern missionaries went out, William Carey. He's
a British guy and
The, the belief of the day was that if God
wanted to save people that were not saved, then he
would just do it. Yeah, exactly like he would, you know,
and that was kind of one of the famous things
(11:16):
when William Kere was like, I wanna go out and
reach the lost. Somebody stood up and said, you know,
if God wanted to reach the uh the heathen, he'll
do that all by himself, and he doesn't need you. Um,
but that's a hugely, that's a just a a massively
misguided idea of what does it mean that we're in
partnership with God.
Of course he does the saving. Of course it's his power.
(11:36):
It's his work of transformation, and he's using people. And
so the Bible story I was thinking of was John
chapter 2, when Jesus turned water or wine from water,
water into wine, and we're told that he, he asked
the servants to fill the pots with water and then
bring them to him and then he turned that into wine.
(11:56):
And you think, in that moment, there's only one group
of people that knew what happened. They were partnered with God.
God did the whole miracle. He did everything, but they
knew that it was His power. And I just think
like in prayer, I get to be a part of
what God's doing. And, and so I, I, you know,
I would say that when I hear somebody say, well,
I don't think prayer works, I think two things are happening.
(12:19):
Either one, you just don't pray.
Or 2, you prayed for like a little bit, and
it didn't happen the way you wanted, so you gave up.
And prayer is not twisting God's arm. Prayer's twisting your
arm a little bit more than God's arm. Let's be real.
Prayer changes me. I don't change God. I get on
his page, not him on my page. But when I
(12:40):
do get on his page, golly, I mean, we could
talk the whole rest of the hour about answered prayer. Seriously,
we could talk about it, and, and, and I know
Brian and I have been friends a long, long time.
I could say this, I think with authority, with you, Brian.
I know I can say this about me, we're not
special people. We don't have special access, but God has
answered so many prayers in our lives. And, um, boy,
I really, Stacey, I, I hope you get back to praying, um,
(13:03):
it's worth it. Keep seeking the Lord in prayer. And
that and that idea that you just touched on, Phil,
I mean, that's the one that Stacey needs to really
get beyond like somehow she's not worthy enough or, you know,
her life is too small or insignificant.
Why would God want to hear her prayer or why
(13:23):
would God be interested in answering her prayer? And the
reason is that uh you're his child, he loves you,
he created you, he has a plan and purpose for
your life, and you know, he just wants to be
in fellowship with you and prayer, you know, the probably the.
(13:46):
The greatest reason you, you touched on it, Phil, for,
for praying, like you said, it's not.
We're not doing anything to God. It's not like God's like, OK,
I'll change my mind, you know, these guys, uh, I
wanted to do it the other way, but now they're,
you know, they really got me in a bind and I,
I guess I'll have to go with what they say.
(14:07):
You know, that's not happening. What's happening is we are
getting changed. We are getting transformed, and if nothing else,
we're just getting to be with God as as we pray.
I, I wanted to add to that right there cause
I was thinking like, I think prayer seems a little
transactional for people, but that's it right there. It's like, I,
(14:29):
I got, I got 4 kids. I just like to
get to talk to them. It doesn't have, I don't
care what we're talking about. I just love getting to
talk to him. That's funny to hear what, what's going on.
I love when a grandkid wants to just talk. There's
nothing better in the world, so.
We have to not think of prayer as so transactional,
like God just wants to, you know, this or we
need that or whatever. It's like, dude, when you're in
(14:49):
love with someone, you just want to talk to them.
Great answers, great answers, Pastor Brian and Pastor Phil. Uh,
thank you, Stacey, for contacting us from Orange on the Facebook.com/
Pastor's perspective page. Um, also, and we're listening, I, I
assume you're listening on the Apple Podcast or the Spotify podcast.
You can listen there for the pastor's perspective program and
(15:11):
other places as well. Uh, let's take one more Facebook
question before we go to the phones at 888-564-6173, and
this is from, uh, Emily.
In Rancho Santa Margarita, she says, she writes, I am
a Christian, but recently I have been invited to study
the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses. It has been hard to
(15:32):
say no to them as they are all persistent and friendly.
What can you advise about how to proceed? And we'll
start with Phil on that one. What would you say
to uh Emily?
Well, Emily, I think, you know, I mean, there's relationships
that get formed and friendships and all that. So what
I'm gonna say is kind of sounds a little bit like, oh,
it sounds too easy, right? So the, the easy, the
(15:54):
simple answer to that is, no, I'm not, I don't
think you need to be in a situation where you
go studying the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses. I would, and
here's why. And or here would be my caveats. If
you felt called by God to be in a place
where these are friends and you want to expose them
to the truth of who Jesus is.
Then I would say that's different. But when you, when
(16:15):
you use the phrase to go study the Bible, it
seems a little bit like, you know, and, and in
respect to them, they have their agenda. Uh, we just
disagree with their agenda, we disagree with their view of Jesus,
we believe it's a different Jesus.
Because of that, I think studying the Bible is gonna
be a major conflict. It's either gonna be pressure on
you to conform to them, or you're gonna have to
(16:35):
be pressuring them. And if that's not what the point
of that gathering is, it's probably not gonna be, like,
it might be easier to say no now than it
would be later down the road.
All right. Yeah.
Uh that's great, and I think too you have to,
you have to
Be aware that like, like Phil said, there is an agenda.
(16:56):
I mean, Jehovah's Witnesses have an agenda and the agenda
is you need to get people into the Watchtower Bible
and Tract Society. So I, I'm not saying that they
cannot genuinely become your friend, but if they're inviting you
to study, they're basically looking to convert you to their views.
(17:19):
And unless you have a really good biblical foundation yourself,
you're gonna find that you're gonna be getting tripped up
because they know their stuff, and they know just enough
of the Bible.
To be dangerous for somebody who doesn't know enough of
(17:39):
the Bible, because they'll tell you things and you'll be like,
oh wait, I didn't know that, and then they'll come
with something else real quick, and then they'll come with
something else and they give the impression that, you know,
they've really got this down. Well, what they actually have
down is their ideas. So they've really worked hard on
just sort of memorizing, you know, what their ideas are.
(18:00):
But those ideas are in conflict with um historical orthodox
biblical Christianity and like Phil said, main there's a number
of issues, but the main issue is the person of Jesus,
who is Jesus, and they're gonna try to, they're gonna
make a beeline to try to convince you that Jesus
is not equal with the Father, that he is a,
(18:25):
a lesser God.
And this is a massive problem that you don't want
to subject yourself to that. Um, I, I would just
assume not being ready for the kind of battle that
that can be. And I understand they use their own
Bible too, is that right? They do. They have their
own version of of the Bible. It's called the New
(18:48):
World Translation, which is not really a translation, it's a fraudulent.
Uh, translation and they've, they've kind of just adjusted it
to their doctrine. So, you know, they've only gone in
and uh the places where they, they wanted to read
a certain way, they've actually um reinterpreted uh to suit
their
(19:09):
Their position. All right, well, very great answers to Pastor
Phil and Pastor Brian, uh, to Emily from Rancho Santa
Margarita who contacted us on, uh, Facebook.com/pastors perspective, but we're
gonna go to the phones now at 888-564-6173 if you
have a question for Brian or Pastor Phil. Uh, let's
(19:30):
start with, uh, Richard who contacted us at 888-564-6173. Richard,
how can we help you?
Good afternoon, uh, pastors. My question has to do with
the upcoming proposition here in California, the special electionOP 50, and, uh,
what can you pastors, uh, uh, give advice or, uh,
(19:53):
give light to as far as um how important this
proposition is? What are your thoughts?
All right, uh, we'll start with Brian. What do you think?
Well, Richard, I mean, you know, we are not so
much in the business of
(20:14):
Answering
These type of politically oriented questions, you know, some, some questions, uh,
that are somewhat political, they overlap into moral and biblical
um issues. So, you know, we, we obviously will have
to speak on those because the Bible might speak on them. Um,
(20:35):
when it comes to voting and different propositions and things
like that, um, you know, depending on what they are.
Uh, there, there isn't necessarily a biblical perspective on it. So,
so I don't know that there is a, a biblical
perspective on um Prop 50. I know what I think
(20:56):
about it, and I know how I'm gonna vote in
regard to it, but, um, and then again, you know,
sort of the are believers required to vote. Um, I,
I think, you know, we have a
A privilege to vote. Not everybody gets to vote in
the world today, the countries where there, there is no
(21:18):
vote that you just, you just do what the government
tells you, and that's the end of it. So I
think the fact that we do have the uh opportunity
to vote and our vote does mean something, I think
that wisdom would say, yeah, you know, we should vote. Uh,
and you know, didn't mean you have to vote on
every single thing, but some things are more important than others, so.
(21:39):
Um, but when it comes to like, hey, you should
vote this way on this or oh, don't vote on that, um,
I have never really felt like that was my position
to tell people what to do. I think we need to, as,
as grownups, we need to do our research, we need
to understand what the issues are, we need to think
(22:00):
for ourselves and decide for ourselves with.
Scripture influencing the decisions that we make.
All right, uh, Phil, Phil, go ahead. It's a, it's a,
it's an interesting time for sure, um, Ryan, and I
think that was a great answer. I, I don't have
anything to add to Prop 50 other than um.
You know, there's such a, uh, like, you know, like
(22:22):
for everybody listening, you know, there's there's gonna be plenty
of churches that'll tell you what to do and how
to vote, and, you know, if you don't do this, then,
you know, you're not Christian or whatever, um, you know,
I think that's one of the things I really appreciate
about my heritage, my Christian heritage has been
Being under pastors who kind of just stayed really centered.
(22:47):
It's not that those things don't matter. They do. They
really do. And I think, I think Brian spoke to
that like, voting is a privilege, not a lot of,
not everybody in the world has that privilege, so it
is a great privilege, but I, I think also we
just have to remember that like for us as pastors
like we, we feel this really high sense of calling
to help people to know Christ and um and then
(23:08):
to like.
Become thinking Christians. I think that's something I say a
lot at our church, like, we want to develop and
disciple thinking Christians so that when you're dealing with a
nuanced situation, you know, how to vote for this, what
to do about that? Do I say this? Do I
not say that? That you don't need me to tell
you what to do, but then you've learned how to
rely on the Holy Spirit, know the word of God,
to be able to make good and wise biblically driven
(23:32):
Christian decisions. So I think I'm more interested in helping
people develop those thinking processes than I am to saying,
You have to do this. I know that my ministry,
and this is true for you too, Brian, my ministry,
I hope is to people on both sides of these
kinds of things, whatever the issue is, whether they're Democrat, Republican, yes, no, whatever,
(23:52):
they don't vote, they do vote, they care about voting
more than anything in the world, they don't care about it.
I want to reach them with the gospel. I think,
I think we all need to have the opportunity to
know Jesus, so.
I'm most concerned with keeping myself in that big Pastor
Chuck used to say that fish in the largest pond
you can, and, uh, I want to fish in that
large pond and not isolate myself to one particular group.
(24:13):
Now Phil, I want to ask you, do you think
sometimes politics can become like a religion? So I mean
they're they are.
Religion, yeah. I mean, I mean that politics is the
new religion, but basically I'm gonna act out my Christian
faith by doing what the political party says more than
what the Bible says, would you say? I mean, it
can be and I and I think, you know, I
(24:34):
think this is what we're all kind of facing right
now is this idea that like, can you, can I,
can Christianity hijack a particular or really take control of
a particular party? And in the end, the answer is
gonna be no, you know, yeah, especially when you look
at the book of Revelation, if you take it literally
like we do.
You see that the there's a political power that is
willing to associate itself with religious power as long as
(24:56):
it's expedient and the minute it is not, they dump
that religious power and I think that's something we always
have to be kind of cognizant of that there's, you know,
it's great when when any like when any political, you know,
power or any government uh is aligning itself with Christian value,
but we can't mistake.
We, we don't, as a Christian, I'm not about value alone.
(25:18):
I'm about the fact that I'm born again by the
cross of Jesus Christ. It's not my values that will
save me. And so I think, yeah, it is possible.
I appreciate when we do have, you know, systems in
place that are considerate of God, considerate of morality, considerate
of values, but I'm very aware of the fact that
it is still a relationship with Jesus through the cross,
(25:40):
that a person is born again, and no political system.
Can hijack that. That makes a lot of sense. Great answers,
Pastor Phil and Pastor Brian, and thank you, um, uh,
Richard from Beverly Hills who called in at 888-564-6173. Let's
see if we can get another one before the break
and talk to Chris in Los Angeles. Chris, welcome to
the program.
(26:01):
Thank you, gentlemen. Uh, pastors, first, I'd like to mention that, um,
I think it's in Sir John. We're admonished to not
give any greeting to those who bring a different doctrine, um,
that we are partakers of their evil deeds if we
do so. This is in reference to the last caller
(26:24):
before the first phone call, and, uh, I just wanted
you to maybe speak on that a little bit.
Uh, wait, uh,
The last caller was that the Jehovah's Witness reference? Oh yes,
that was a Facebook question, right, right, right, yeah, yeah,
I mean, you know, the passage in 3 John there is,
(26:45):
is basically telling us not to.
Be complicit or not to, not to embrace. I, I
think it's that the idea is, um, you know, the
old translation says do not bid them Godspeed, which I
think what the apostle is warning about is in in
(27:06):
embracing of them as a brother or a sister. So, um,
like for example today with um Latter-day Saints, the Mormons.
Um, there's a big push within Mormonism to, to be
recognized as a Christian denomination.
(27:26):
And so some people would say, yeah, that's we should
do that, and, you know, God bless our Mormon brothers
and sisters, let's, you know, join hands with them and
let's all worship the Lord. Um, I, I don't, I
think John's passage is actually referring to that type of
a thing. We cannot do that because they have a
(27:48):
doctrine that is in conflict with the biblical doctrine about
who Jesus actually is.
And so for me to say, oh yeah, you know,
they're believers too, let's all join hands and march forward
together for the kingdom, um, that would be the equivalent
(28:08):
of what John is saying not to do.
Does that make sense, Chris?
Yes, it does, it does. Um, you, you probably see
I had a follow-up question unrelated though. Yes, um, in,
in Revelation 13, we read about the beast that comes
up out of the sea having two horns like a lamb. Well, we,
(28:32):
we know that a lot of theologians might say that
the United States has no place or mention in end-time studies.
But could this be a reference to the United States,
saying that the horns like a lamb could be referring
to uh a Christian nation or or a nation that
(28:55):
accepts the gospel.
And the fact that there are two horns, could that
be a reference to the two leaders of the country,
or is that a stretch? That is a great question,
and I think we're going to take that at the
second half of the program. Chris, can you hang on
through the break? Is that OK? Will that work for you?
Can you hang on for us?
(29:16):
Sure, Michael. All right, great. All right, well, Chris from
Los Angeles is gonna hang on for us for the
answer to that question about Revelation chapter 13, and, uh,
we will answer them in the second half of the program.
If you'd like to talk to Pastor Phil Metzger or
Pastor Brian Broderson with your question, you can call at 888-564-61.
173 again that's 888-564-6173. Whether you want to talk about
(29:40):
the beast that comes up like a lamb in Revelation
chapter 13 or anything else on the Bible, the Christian
faith or how to live the Christian life, give us
a call 888-564-6173. That's 888-564-6173.
(30:16):
Hello and welcome back to the second half of Pastor's Perspective.
I'm Michael David in for Brian Perez. You can call
us at 888-564-6173. Again, 888-564-6173. On today's program we have
Pastor Brian Broderson and Pastor Phil Metzger, and before we
went to the program.
We were talking to Chris in Los Angeles and he
(30:38):
was talking about Revelation chapter 13 verse 11, I believe,
where it says, uh, then I saw another beast coming
up out of the earth and he had two horns
like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. Chris, that
was the verse you were talking about, right?
It's correct, Michael. Yes. All right, great. Uh, we'll start
with Pastor Brian. What about that beast? It could that
(30:59):
be the United States and
Um, yeah, Chris, I, I don't think so. I do
think that those are descriptions of actual, uh, you know, people.
I think the, the first beast rising up out of
the sea is the one that we commonly refer to
as the anti-Christ. And there I think there is some
(31:20):
biblical basis for that. I mean, John the apostle tells
us in his letter, um.
You have heard that the Antichrist is coming, and then
he says, but already many anti antichrists have arisen, so
he identifies that there's one, there is the antichrist. And
(31:40):
so all that to say, I think, I think we
can call this person the Antichrist, but um there's also
the false prophet and later on in Revelation, it makes
it clear who these two are, one, the beast and
the other is the false prophet. So I think the
Um, the horns like a lamb, give him the appearance,
(32:02):
it's kind of like a, a, a wolf in sheep's clothing.
That's really, you know, Jesus used that illustration, and that's
what's being spoken of here. Um, uh, horns like a lamb,
but yet, uh, speaks like the dragon. And so this
is the representative. What, what a lot of people don't often.
(32:24):
realize that there there are in the sense of Antichrist,
there are two of them. There's one of them who
is the prominent one, and then there's the other one
who is the PR person for the prominent one. That's
what the false prophet is. He's the one who says, um,
let's make an image.
(32:45):
Uh, he has power to give life to the image. Now,
you know, we're living in a time when a lot
of people say, oh, you know, this stuff is just,
you know, you, yeah, I mean, who knows what it means?
Nobody really knows what it means. It might have happened
back in the time of Nero, and so on and
so forth. And, OK, fine, but I don't think so.
I think we're, I think we're talking about some really
(33:05):
crazy crazy stuff that is gonna come to um a
fulfillment here in the world, um, in, in the future. So,
That's my
Perspective, Phil, what do you? Nope, I think that's a
great perspective. I think that I, it's funny, I, when I,
when I hear people say like, or I don't really
(33:25):
hear it anymore, but I used to hear it. Oh man,
this stuff is too fantastic to believe that it could
be true. The truth is, is I think our, ours
as a society we're more poised for false prophet, anti-Christ
than we've ever been. Like we we buy into stuff
so fast now in ways that I think we.
I don't know, maybe I have a nostalgic view of
our past, but I think we're just like so we're
(33:48):
just grabbing on so much these days. Yeah, well, I mean,
you know, whether it's ideas or if it's, you know, figures, people, um, politicians,
you know, just the idea now in people's minds that somehow,
you know, this person is gonna fix everything. This person
is gonna
(34:08):
Save us or this party or this ideology or whatever. Um, yeah,
I mean that's, it's pretty wild that we're living in
a time.
Where that is now sort of what a lot of
people are thinking. So like you said, Phil, I mean
it it we're just sort of sitting ducks for the
(34:30):
antichrist to come along and say, all right, well, here
I am, I'll fix it all for you. Well, like I, I,
I was even like, I was thinking that somebody told
me this and I looked up, it was true that
there's more people today that believe in the flat earth
theory than there were before we had the internet and like.
Yeah, like we have all this abundant, you know, information
(34:51):
and more people believe that kind of conspiracy. So you
think like information hasn't solved our, you know, our drive, uh,
for like conspiracy. We love it even more, I think.
And there's a whole bunch of people that think men
can become women and women can become men and I
mean it's like, OK, what, you know, who in their
right mind takes this stuff, yeah.
(35:13):
Yeah, so, uh, you know, because it used to be
like looking at, you know, all the prophecies about Antichrist
and stuff. Oh, it just seems so fantastical and how
could this ever happen and nobody would ever believe this stuff.
It's like, really? OK. I think like you said, I
think we're totally primed for it. And Peter Thiel, who
is a, um,
(35:34):
Billionaire, um, I think founder of PayPal and uh Elon
Musk and him, you know, partnered together. Um, interesting, Peter
Thiel is a, he, he's a profess he professes to
be a Christian. He lives in a a gay marital relationship, um,
but he has been giving lectures.
(35:57):
On the Antichrist, so he's, he's literally out telling people like, hey,
the Antichrist is just around the corner, you know, so yeah, it's,
it's crazy. Oh my goodness, wow, I was not expecting that. Wow,
it might be PayPal too, but just kidding, just kidding. No, Phil, it's, um,
(36:19):
not PayPal, it's Tesla.
Well, Chris from Los Angeles, thank you so much for
calling us with that great question at 888-564-6173. We're gonna
go from LA. I, I just wanna say that was
a that was a joke. I mean, I don't want
anybody trying to, you know, sue me over. I know.
(36:40):
I didn't mean that.
So Elon, that was a joke. Yes, yes, yes, and Peter,
that was a joke too, yes. All right, uh, Chris,
great question on Revelation 13. We're gonna go from LA
to San uh number 2 is Mission Viejo and talk
to Doug. Doug, welcome to the program.
Hello. Hello.
(37:01):
Yes, can you hear us?
Yes, I can hear you. Go ahead, ask your question.
OK, I was just turning down the radio a little bit. Hey, uh,
first of all, thanks for taking my call. I listen
to you guys all the time, Brian. I totally appreciate the, the, uh,
teachings that you've had over the many years I've listened,
so I appreciate it. Thanks, Doug. It might surprise you
(37:21):
to find out I'm actually a member of the Church
of Jesus Christ.
Well, I just wanted to pull the thread. Yeah, that's OK.
I mean, not many things surprise me these days, so,
but now let me just ask you this question though, Doug. Have,
have you ever called before?
OK, good. Yeah, cause we've talked, you know, we've had
(37:42):
a number of great conversations with people just like what
you said about yourself, yeah, so, yeah.
So yeah, I just wanted to say because I, I
do listen to you all the time. I mean, all the, myself,
I'll just speak for myself and I know I speak
for probably a lot of LDS people. We, we believe
in Jesus Christ obviously as our Lord and Savior. There's
(38:04):
no other way to get into heaven except through him.
His atonement was the essential thing that broke the bands
of death and allows us to be resurrected and forgiven
of our sins. He created the world.
And so on. So yeah, it's, it's kind of interesting
to hear when you guys talk about, um, you know,
members of, of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
(38:25):
Saints is not being Christian, so.
And you know, I heard something recently, Doug, I, I,
I don't know if I read it or I heard
somebody say it, but it was, it was really fascinating
that um
A a person like like you, it was really referring
to people like you who would essentially uh just say, yeah, I,
(38:47):
I believe just, you know, what the Bible says about Jesus,
and that there's a large number of people who simultaneously
identify as LDS but yet also say, no, I, you know,
I I believe this about Jesus.
And it was almost just like a really brief little paragraph,
so I didn't, I didn't dig any deeper into it,
(39:07):
but um, but I guess what I would
And I'm not saying that that's not possible, but, but
what I am, what I would ask you, Doug, is
like when it comes to Mormon doctrine about God, for example,
and I know this isn't in the Book of Mormon,
but it's in, um, you know, some of the writings
of Brigham Young, uh, like the idea that, um, as, uh,
(39:31):
as God.
Um
as as man is now, God once was, and as
God is now man shall be. So the idea that God,
according to Brigham Young, used to be a man, and
now he's been elevated to, you know, this, this position
(39:51):
of being God, and that's kind of where where we're
all headed. So that's that's Mormon teaching.
Would you agree with that, or would you say, no, I,
I don't, I don't believe that. Doug, what would you say?
Yeah, so I would say, yeah, I, I agree with
it to an extent. I mean, and I think, so, Brian,
(40:13):
so I really respect you and I, I know that
you are a great Christian. I think you're going to
be standing right next to Jesus Christ and all of
your sins are gonna be gone. You won't be fighting
anymore like we do in this world, and you will
be learning from Jesus Christ for eons and eons.
And uh, do you think there's an end to that
progression of learning about what he knows and finding out
(40:37):
how he created the worlds and
Well, you know, it does, the scripture does say that
we will know, now we know in part, but then
we will know even as we are known. So I
think that
Um, you know, we, we will know. I don't know
if we'll, uh, I mean, obviously God is what you
(40:58):
call omniscient, you know, he knows everything, and he knows
everything about everything and every detail that could ever be imagined.
So will we have that kind of knowledge? I'm not sure.
I do know that the one thing that we will
be learning for
Ever is uh that God will show us the riches
(41:20):
of his kindness toward us through Jesus Christ for all eternity.
That Paul says that in Ephesians, so.
Um, but then also, you know, we have the scriptures
that are, you know, of course, as a Christian, we
believe that the scriptures are true, they're absolutely true, everything
they say is true. And so what they tell us
(41:43):
about God.
Will not be contradicted.
In the future. So now we think that God wasn't a,
a person at one time who is now elevated to
a position of God, because the Bible says that God
is eternal. He has always been who he is. He
(42:03):
never was anything else. So I don't think we're gonna
step into eternity and find out.
Wow, you used to be a man. I, I didn't
know that. Why, why didn't you tell us that? Why
did you tell us, uh, instead, that from everlasting to everlasting,
you are God.
So this is where I think we would come into
(42:24):
a place of disagreement, um, you know, what does the
Bible say about God the Father? What does the Bible
say about God the Son?
And can you disagree with the Bible about the person
of God and actually be a Christian?
(42:46):
Right. And I, I think that's it exactly. Is that what,
that's what we focus on is.
Is the whole story of the New Testament is the
story about a father and a son, right? And um
and so I think that's really the focus is that we,
we believe that Jesus Christ is the son of literal
Son of God.
And that he, you know, he atoned for the sins
(43:09):
of the world to Gethsemane and on the cross, that
he's taken his place on the right hand of the Father.
So he, he literally is the Son of God. Yeah,
but does that to you, does that.
Identify him as equal with God.
So he's a joint, yeah, he calls, he says, I'm a,
(43:30):
he says he is an heir and that we will
be joint heirs with him. Yeah, yeah. But like say
John one, for example, in the beginning was the word,
the word was with God and the word was God.
And then the word became flesh and dwelt among us,
so John's telling us that the word who was with God.
But also was God became a man. So I, I
(43:55):
don't know, I, I, I'm, it just slips my mind
right now, but do, do, um, Latter-day saints believe that
God is triune? Do they believe that Father, Son, and
Holy Spirit are one.
God
With distinct persons, but yet one god, all equal.
(44:16):
In the, not in the sense that you're thinking of,
of the Trinity, but we believe there that there is
God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost,
and that they're one in purpose. OK, yeah. Yeah, see,
one in purpose, that's a different thing, and Jehovah's Witnesses
believe that too. They would say, you know, they're one
in purpose, but we're talking about one in nature, and
that's the biblical claim that Jesus is one.
(44:39):
Um, you know, like Jesus said, he that has seen
me has seen the Father. How can you say, show
us the Father? Um, you know, Jesus says that to
Philip in John 14. So, um,
I, you know, Doug, I mean, I, I appreciate the
fact that you listen. I think that's amazing, and I'm
so glad you're listening today and I, and I respect
(45:00):
you for calling in, and I think it's great to
have these kinds of conversations, but I would still say
that based on what you're saying, you
Are
A good Mormon.
But you're, you can't be a Christian and embrace Mormon
theology when it comes to the person of God, and
(45:22):
also the way of salvation, because if there's any
If there's anything that you contribute to your salvation, if
there's anything other than just simply Jesus died, rose again,
I believe that, that's the basis for my salvation.
Then you're trying to have a salvation that is not
(45:43):
one that the Bible, um,
Teachers
Well, thank you for taking my call. I appreciate it. I, I, uh,
you know, like I said, I agree with virtually all
the things that you say. I love the way you
guys go through the scriptures and the defense that you
make for them. And I, I'll just say I know
(46:03):
a lot of LDS people, and they are as Christian
as they come in my mind. OK, well.
All right, Doug, thanks for calling. Yes, thank you for
calling Doug from Mission Viejo at 888-564-6173. Phil, did you
want to say anything about that? I mean, no, other
than I think what a great conversation. It was just
(46:24):
enjoyable to get to be a part of, I think, boy,
this is, man, if we can have conversations like that,
that that would be great. It really would, and you know,
just thankful for Doug that he would, you know, that
he was willing to, you know, call in with a
Uh, a disagreement, but he, but it was in such
a gracious and kind manner, and I'm so glad that
(46:47):
he's listening and um pray that you continue to listen, Doug. Amen.
That was great. Yes, thank you, Doug, for calling from
Mission Viejo. We go from Mission Viejo to Lynnwood and
talk to Rayna. Rayna, welcome to the program.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
Yes, hi, my name is Serena.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
How are you so sorry, Serena, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (47:09):
Yes, uh, first of all, I wanna give my honor
to God on today and to all of you and to,
if I remember right, uh, Brian Brodeson, if, um, I
was going to, uh, Pastor Chuck Smith's Church. OK, good.
And um, yes, and at that time we were baptizing
out in the ocean. Mhm.
(47:31):
And I was baptized in the ocean and at that
time that I was baptized in the ocean, I, I,
I can't remember it was something cove or whatever. Pirate's
Cove remember Pirate's Cove. I remember holding my husband's hand
and it was so you guys had a joint hands
so that.
(47:51):
Brian Broderson was on my right side, and I was
holding my husband's hand with my left hand and another
pastor was on the other side. That's when we were
going to church with Pastor Chuck Smith. But anyway, I
have a question. Over the years, my husband has been
deceased now, going on 9 years, and we have one daughter.
(48:15):
And she's a Muslim.
So I'm kind of having a hard time trying to
get her to come back to what she was raised.
And I know the Bible says clean up a child
in the way that he should go when he is old,
he shall not depart from it. So, um she just
recently started coming to the house and bringing her prayer
(48:36):
cloth and everything, and she's praying like, well, mom, I
need to pray. And I'm like, well, wait a minute,
before you start praying to Allah and all of that.
I need you to tell me who do you believe
that Jesus is. And she says, Well, Muslims, mom, believe
that Jesus was nothing more. When she said that it,
(48:57):
it hurt me. She said, we believe that Jesus was
nothing more than a messenger.
I like to know how can I, what can I say,
what can I do? because it's not looking like I'm
gonna be able to turn this around. I'm praying for
her every day. She's Muslim, she's covered up from head
(49:17):
to toe, which I don't have a problem with that
because she's more respectable to her body than most um
women are, you know, she's all covered up, but it's hard.
I told her, you can't pray in my house anymore.
And it kind of hurt me, but I told her,
you can't. She says, Well, I'll go outside and pray.
(49:40):
So she started praying in the driveway and thinks she
has her own house. So now she eventually have stopped
praying over here, but I did let her know that
she could not bow down and pray to Allah.
In my home, and I want to know your views
on that because it's only me and her. I have
no other children. I'm 71 and she's getting ready to
(50:02):
be 45. I wanted to see if you know what
Muslims believe, because when she said we believe that he,
Jesus was nothing more than a messenger, then I, I
love my daughter with all my heart and I will always,
but that has taken me.
(50:23):
It hurts my heart because I want her to make
it to heaven. Yes,
Speaker 1 (50:28):
yes, that's very important. Um, we'll I'll hear from both
of you, Brian and Phil. They'll start with, uh, start with,
go ahead and start with Brian, and we'll hear from
Phil too. Go ahead, um.
Yeah, I, I was wondering if is your daughter married?
Is that how she became a Muslim? Is that through
marriage, or? Oh,
Speaker 2 (50:46):
she's single. When she was raised in the church. She
was raised in, in God's word. She was in the church,
and she was strong. She was even, uh, missionary work.
After that, as she started getting older, she became a Rastafarian.
She started hanging around with, uh, a group of people from.
Uh, wherever the Rastas are, I can't remember what Jamaica,
(51:09):
that country, Jamaica. So she was a, a proclaimed Rastafarian.
And then after that, I seen her switch to a Muslim.
So it went from Christianity to Rastafarian, so now it
looks like it's almost no turning around and you know, uh, I,
I welcome her at my house because she's my only child,
(51:32):
but
What I'm concerned is when she said that Muslims believe
that Jesus was nothing more than a messenger, I told
her I said you can't bow down in my house.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
OK, fair enough.
Yeah, um, yeah, I mean, it, it's, yeah, it's, it's
a little, it's a little bit more complicated what Muslims
believe about Jesus. Um, they don't, they don't believe that
he is God, the son, uh, they do believe that
Muhammad is the greatest of all of the prophets, but, uh,
the irony is that the uh the Quran.
(52:08):
Uh, has Jesus in the most interesting places. He's, he's
the one who's coming back to judge the world. He
was sinless, he performed miracles, um, you know, Muhammad didn't
do any of that stuff. And so it, it's, it's
just a bit perplexing. It just shows you that the
Quran itself is, is a book that's just a kind
of a compilation of a bunch of, uh, ideas and
(52:30):
stories that existed at the time that it was, it
was put together, um.
So it, you know, it, it's unfortunate that she's she's
gone down this road, um, we have a book that
we recommend called um Glad News God Loves You, my
(52:52):
Muslim friend written by a friend of ours, uh, Sammy
Tannago who is, um, he's Egyptian and he studied at
the Islamic universities in Cairo and so forth.
And uh he's written a great book that really kind
of walks through all of these different questions about who
Jesus is, who God is, what salvation is, and things
(53:13):
like that.
So, um, I would recommend getting that book or we
could help you get a hold of it if you,
if you would like us to.
It's um
You know, there's a lot to this, but of course,
remember that Muhammed.
(53:35):
Who came onto the world scene in the 600s. So
we're talking about 600 years after the time of Jesus. So, um,
and he made all kinds of claims and the Quran
makes all kinds of claims that contradict what the Bible
already said. So Jesus said that he's the way the
truth and the life. No one can come to the
(53:55):
Father except through him. Jesus, the Bible claims that Jesus
is the final revelation of God. There is no more.
There's nothing further coming.
There's not gonna be another prophet who's gonna come, you know,
the Bible Bible teaches all of that. So, uh, sadly
through whatever influence your, your daughter's just, you know, she's embraced, um,
(54:17):
false teaching, Phil.
I just wonder if like her embrace of that is
based on like doctrine, like teaching information, or is it
like kind of more like relational? Is it connected to friendships?
Is it connected to, you know, kind of jumping from
one thing to the next to the next speaks more
to that than it does like, I'm seeking truth and discovering,
you know, the truth. I think Serena, and I won't
(54:39):
hear the music, so Michael, feel free to cut me off.
We'll hear it in a little bit, so go ahead. OK, uh, yeah,
just so you know, shout at me, um.
I think, you know, Serena, that the main thing that
you said that you're doing that is so good that
I want to encourage you to keep doing is pray
for your daughter. Um, we don't, we don't necessarily like
You know, when your daughter is praying to Allah, we
just believe she's she's praying to no one, that's not God,
(55:00):
so that that's not a danger in your home, uh,
but you know, you wanna keep relationship with your daughter,
but you also wanna like
You know, like, realize that I think like praying for
her is gonna be more effective and more impactful than
anything else you could do. It might not be just
you being able to answer a question, but you just
keep loving her, loving her, loving her. You got one daughter,
(55:20):
keep loving her and keep showing her what Jesus looks
like here in the world, and pray for her, pray
for her, pray for her. Um, the book would be
great for you to get a good understanding of kind
of what is.
You know what is that teaching? So I think that's
a great recommendation. Yes, and you can get that book
Glad News God Loves You, My Muslim Friend by Sammy
Tnago at Amazon as well as anywhere you find fine books. So, uh,
(55:45):
Serena from Lynnwood, thank you for your call today. Pastor
Brian Broderson, Pastor Phil Metzger, thank you for joining us
on the program, and we will see you next time
on Pastor's Perspective. Good night.
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