November 17, 2025 • 56 mins
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:17):
Hello. Welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez,
and uh we're here live on this Monday. We would
love to talk to you at 888-564-6173. We take questions
about the Bible, the Christian faith, maybe you have a
question about uh something your pastor said yesterday at church.
We would love to talk about that, especially if your
(00:39):
pastor was Char Broderson or Mike Shattuck because they're in
the studio today.
We would love to hear that. Uh, Char is the
lead pastor of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. Mike is the
pastor of Image Church in, uh, San Juan Capistrano, and
we're here. What are you guys up to, Mike and Char?
How'd it go this past Sunday, yesterday?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
It went amazing. Um, I'm personally, we're teaching through the
Book of First Corinthians and
I, I don't know, I just in my own study
and preparation like there's always the danger of preachers when
they're preparing they think of it as, OK, this is
for other people I'm gonna bring that, you know, because
you wanna do a good job and you wanna all
that but I just, um, man, it just was fully
(01:22):
preached to me in a a weighty sort of way
where I'm just like I was kind of floored, uh,
by what by what we were studying and what I
was reading it hit me personally and.
I saw areas where I can improve. I, I'm excited
about improving and pursuing the mission of God and, uh,
particularly talking about like the unity of the church. We're
(01:43):
looking at 1 Corinthians 3:16 where Paul says, you, you plural,
not individual, you plural, you all are the temple of
God in the word.
Temple is not the normal word for the general precincts
of the temple. It's, uh, which would be Huron, it's
not us, which is the Greek rendering of the Kodesh Kodaim,
the holy of holies. The New Testament church people called
(02:05):
out in the Messiah when they are gathered together in
His name, the Holy of Holies, and I was just like.
I mean, I'm sure I've seen this before and, and
then in the context, yeah, yeah, you know, you know
that to be true, but I guess the nuance of
what Paul is saying and in, in the context of
the problem of unity, that's what he's been addressing since
chapter 1 verse 10 all the way to the end.
(02:26):
Of 4 and it's like, wow, like, for Paul, unity
is a matter of holiness and people who divide around
different teachers and I think by extension denominations, it's, you know,
we don't think denomination equals division, but at the same time.
Um, the attitude, um, that divisive rivalry, prideful us versus
(02:47):
them towards other Christians is so sinful actually in Paul's
eyes when he speaks of us as the, the holy
of holies, the place where the one God, the one God,
not the many, the one God dwells. So anyway, I could, uh,
I should probably stop there. I'm just excited. I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
That's
cool. That's interesting because I mean yesterday we were in
Mark 13.
And you know, looking at the questions about the destruction
of the temple in Jerusalem and the Second Coming and
these things that, but I had noticed in, um, my
studying that Mark is actually developing the tale of two temples.
And so, uh, 11 through 12, it's the destruction of
(03:25):
the temple in Jerusalem. 14 and 15 is the destruction
of the temple in Jesus. And Mark has been developing,
you know, Jesus, Messiah's temple, a hermeneutic all throughout Mark.
But here it is like both.
Temples are doomed to destruction, and yet God will raise
up Jesus Messiah, and he will gather, uh, you know,
(03:46):
when the Son of Man comes, he will gather, um,
the elect from the four corners, from the ends of
heaven and ends of earth together in Him. So like,
the house for all nations that became identity thieves had failed,
doomed to destruction.
Uh, the leaders rise up and doom Jesus to destruction,
put him to death. God raises him up and fulfills
(04:06):
what temple was always meant to do, to gather all
God's people together and, you know, to worship the one
true
God
Speaker 2 (04:11):
100. 0 man, it's like that's so rich. It's I
mean because, and again, like with the Old Testament temple,
which was real, but it was not the real thing.
It was a type. It was pointing.
And the the threat kind of looming always in the
Old Testament is that the glory of God could always
depart because of the sinfulness of man, but the true
and better temple Jesus Christ, who more fully reveals the
(04:34):
glory of God and the glory will never depart Jesus
Christ as our temple, it's guaranteed in him.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
So if you want to talk about this or anything else,
the phone lines are open at 888-564-6173. You can also
send us your questions on Facebook and Instagram, or through
the pastor's perspective page at Kwave.com, but our favorite way
is to talk to you at
888-564-6173, and I think we'll start right on the phones, uh,
(05:03):
before we go to some of the questions that were
submitted online. This is Sylvia, who's listening to us on
the KWave app in Rialto, California. Thank you, Sylvia, for
downloading the app and for calling in today.
Thank you very much. I'm so excited to just be
able to speak to all of you. Oh, thank you, Sylvia.
My question was, uh, my question was, um, as a Christian,
(05:27):
are we allowed to, uh, donate blood or plasma, you know, right.
OK, so, uh, what, uh, brought, uh, brought up this
question to you?
Well, I used to do it many years ago, like
donate plasma. I mean, donate blood for, you know, just
to help out others that are in need. And, um,
(05:48):
and since I've um became a Christian, I have not
donated anything because I was not
sure. Did somebody tell you you're not supposed to?
No, nobody told me, but to me, I just feel like,
you know, God is in me. And, you know, if
(06:08):
I just give my blood out, I'm just giving a
piece of God away. I don't
know. Interesting. All right silly,
but, but I was just curious. You know, it's something
that's been on my mind and, and, uh, I've been
getting emails, you know, to go donate, but, since I
was unsure, you know, I just.
(06:29):
That I ask.
All right, Char, we'll start with you. Yeah, I think
this is one of those areas where like theologically, as
far as the Bible is concerned, there's nothing in Scripture
that would prohibit, uh, people from doing something like this. Um,
of course, there are certain Christian cults that, that do
refuse this act, and I'm not actually, um, privy as
(06:51):
to why, but, um, but Sylvia, even back to kind
of what you were saying a moment ago, you know, giving.
You know, giving a piece of God to others, you know,
I don't actually think that that's what would be happening
in you donating your blood, but I do think that's
an interesting idea. Like when we just think about, isn't
this actually what Christians are supposed to do? Like to
(07:12):
give of ourselves, uh, as a picture of what God
has done for us, right? The, the whole point of, um,
God's love is that it reaches me, transforms my life,
and then I become a channel through which God's love
actually reaches out and touches other people. And the Bible
actually says that God's love is completed. It actually fulfills
(07:35):
the purpose for which it's sent out when I begin
to love others in the same way that God has
loved me. And so I actually think, you know, it
just is practically speaking, like donating blood is actually a
very Christian act in that sense, right? To do something
that would, um,
You know, takes of myself as a sacrifice for myself, uh,
to give life and health to others, you know, that's
(07:57):
a very Jesus-like thing to do. And then we can
even talk about organ donation, you know, Mike, what, what
do you think about
Speaker 2 (08:03):
all this?
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, like Jesus said,
the two great commandments are number 1, love the Lord
your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength,
and number 2, love your neighbor as yourself. And so
I think loving God, loving people are at the center
of Christian ethics and, and life and what.
Uh, what better way, uh, to be giving and quite
(08:23):
literally life giving, right? You know, Jesus, I mean, and,
you know, obviously want to be careful with, with the analogies,
but I mean Jesus literally gave his blood for us
and while we're not atoning for anyone or anything like that,
the idea of giving of ourselves and being sources of
life to people, um, I think is, is, it ties
(08:44):
to a biblical picture like Jesus said.
You know that you will that streams of living water, uh,
which sustains life are gonna come pouring out of you
the idea we're to be God's life giving agents in
the world so I, I think it's a beautiful way of,
of serving our, our fellow human beings who are made
in the image of God. We are not God, but
(09:05):
we are made in the image of God and so
I think it's a wonderful way of loving and serving people.
I actually do it regularly myself, by the way.
Um, I do think, uh, some cults, and I know, I,
I think Jehovah's Witnesses, this was their rationale, they, um,
they look at Old Testament passages, um, and, and there's
actually a few references to it in the new as
(09:26):
well when the apostles and Acts are debating the Jewish
Gentile relations, you know.
And there are certain prohibitions against blood, and I can
understand why, uh, some well-meaning people could get misconstrued about,
oh gosh, well, is, is, is donating blood and transfusions
the same thing as drinking, uh, blood in a pagan
(09:46):
ritual context. And I think the obvious answer is no,
it's important to understand the context of.
Why those prohibitions are there, um, the various pagan groups, uh,
had demonic rituals actually involved with the consuming of blood
and not just killing animals, but they would strangle them
a certain way, kill them a certain way, and it
(10:06):
was all involved and God wanted his people to be separate.
He wanted them to be separate, um, so there's a
number of things.
They were not supposed to do, um, as a sign
of them being separate. But of course we're under the
new covenant and understanding the context of course of a
blood transfusion is uh not a religious ritual uh of
any kind and rather as a Christian, we are reaching
(10:28):
out and serving our neighbors through providing literally a life
giving resource which is blood.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Sylvia, what do you think of these answers?
Uh, I love them because, you know, like I said,
Speaker 2 (10:39):
it was something that was just on my mind and,
and I hadn't done it because I was unsure, you know,
and it didn't cross my mind to even ask my
pastor about it. But, you know, I was like, you
know what, let me call in and find out because
I need to know. Absolutely. Yeah, better and
And that way I can continue doing what I, you know,
(11:02):
love to do is to give back to others, you know,
to help out in every way that I can, because,
you know, like you said, that's something that reflects, uh,
in us from God, you know, to show people that,
you know, God is, is living and that he's living
through us, and, you know, that he needs to shine
(11:22):
through so that others can see that there's hope out there.
That's right.
And we actually had this situation come up in our
church not too long ago, one of our church members
was on death's door and needed uh emergency blood transfusion
and a bunch of people in our church went and
gave blood and honestly it was just a beautiful picture
like you just said, Sylvia. I think you, you said
(11:44):
it so well. It's, it is a wonderful way of
of serving people.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Thanks for your phone call today on Pastor's Perspective at 888-564-6173.
Now we'll talk to Jody in Buena Park. Hello, thanks
for calling, Jody. How can we help you?
Hi, thank you.
OK, my question, I got two. my dad was on
his deathbed.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
My mom asked him if he would accept Jesus Christ,
and he said yes. So he was not a, a
holy man his whole life, but does that mean he
gets to go to heaven? And what about someone committing suicide?
So to answer the first question, I'm, I'm so blessed
to hear that and absolutely a person who is not
a good person who accepts Jesus Christ, uh, is born
(12:29):
again and goes to heaven, and the fact is no
one is good like the apostle Paul is clear in Romans,
no one has done good, no, not even one we've
all sinned, we've all.
Fallen short of the glory of God and that includes
someone a, a deathbed conversion and obviously the, I, I mean,
I think one of the most paradigmatic examples of this
is the thief on the cross. By definition, he, he was,
(12:53):
he was being killed for living a bad life. This
was not a good man by anybody's definition, not Jewish definition,
not Roman definition. He's a good man, and he even
acknowledged he deserved to die actually on the cross. That's
one of the.
Uh, actually, and that's a part of repentance and confession. Like,
not just did he see Jesus as Lord, he confessed
he was a sinner. He recognized that. And yet by
(13:15):
placing faith in Jesus, Jesus said, surely this day you
will be with me in paradise. And, and, and I
think some of us push back on that because we
say to ourselves, gosh, that is not fair.
And that is absolutely right. It is not fair and
thank God that God through the gospel is dealing with
us according to grace and not according to what we deserve.
(13:36):
I don't want to get what I deserve when it
comes to being judged by the righteous standards of God.
None of us do. So praise God for grace, and I'm,
I'm so thankful to hear that, uh, for your father.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Yeah, yeah, I would, I absolutely, totally agree. I think
also though there is that innate kind of sense of like, wait.
Like you said, like, isn't this wrong? Like it's unfair.
And I think, OK, setting that aside for a moment, like,
is this what God wants, right? Like, you know, and
like when we read in scripture, like salvation is not
just about like deliverance from death and separation from God,
(14:12):
you know, it's not just about, you know, on the end, it's, oh,
you're making a decision about two destinations, right?
Salvation is about, you know, being brought back to God
and being in relationship with God. And I think discovering
what it means to be his image bearer, what it
means to be his friend, what it means to be
God's partner in the world that he, um, you know,
I remaking, right? And and including us in that kingdom work.
(14:35):
And so I think there is something right in us
that goes like, wait a second, that's not what God
wants though, right? And I'd say, yes, correct. Like God
wants like the whole of our lives, you know, from
birth to death through death out the other side, and
yet the grace of God is so big.
That even people that their whole, you know, physical life
(14:59):
on here would reject him and resist him and rebel
against him, even to the final hour, he will show grace.
And I would say gladly welcome them into his kingdom.
You know, that's like the amazing thing about the character
of God. Um, yeah.
The other question that you asked, the question of suicide,
(15:21):
I think this is just such a heavy and yeah, just,
I don't know how else to say it, but just
such a serious question. Um,
I think what we need to understand about suicide, and I'll,
I'll only speak to those who belong to Jesus, right?
And I actually have a family member who gave his
(15:42):
life to Jesus for many, many years, just struggled. Um,
you know, there was mental illness, there was addiction, and
this person worked and tried and, you know, truly, I
would say like, was repentant, but really stuck.
And it came a point where he gave up. He
(16:03):
gave in. And when I think about like, how does
God feel towards those of us who struggle, right? How
does God feel towards those of us who, uh, the
devil sin gets victory over our lives? I think God
is full of compassion, you know, full of mercy, full
of grace, and there is nothing in scripture that would
(16:24):
indicate anywhere that suicide automatically means.
You know, damnation means separation from God. And I think, um,
if I'm not mistaken, Martin Luther was one theologian in
particular that really corrected this because the Catholic Church had actually, um,
I think, like indoctrinated that suicide was that automatic damnation.
(16:47):
And Luther really pushed back on the compassion of God and,
and God's, um, yeah, mercy to those who suffer and
are even overcome by the devil. And so,
I, I think in these situations, we just need to
hold a lot of grace and a lot of confidence in,
you know, the God who reveals Himself as compassionate, gracious, merciful,
(17:11):
slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love, forgiving sin, iniquity,
and rebellion, that this is, this is God's heart towards
people and even in a moment of weakness to, um,
to rescue them, to redeem them. So.
I'm glad you brought up Luther because that was 500
years ago and there's people who might think that this
is a new concept that it would be OK to
(17:31):
do it or or not OK, but that it would
be permissible because then there's the camp that would say, OK,
by what you just said right now it's like you're
giving permission for people to go ahead.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
I was
gonna speak to that, yeah, I mean, and that's why
I just think obviously like.
Communicating, especially on such serious topics and then we're doing
it in a format like this, um, you know, we
wanna try to address every like possible angle somebody could,
you know, misconstrue or I think it's important to not
(18:03):
read into, uh, what someone hasn't said.
Um, because Char didn't say, oh, therefore, it's, as a
matter of fact, if you follow it up with what
you said earlier about salvation is not just about dying
to go to heaven, it includes that, um, but it's
about more than that. Um, obviously, then suicide is, is
also tragic, not just in the sense of, you know, eternity, which,
(18:23):
you know, like you said, there's no biblical evidence that
if someone is a genuine believer and they were overcome
in a moment of, you know, whatever it is, grief, sorrow, depression,
whatever it is.
That they wouldn't go to heaven, but it, it does
rob them obviously of that life and work and ministry that,
so it is a tragedy and I think, you know, because, um,
(18:43):
there's a lot of doctrines where, you know, people ask us,
01 save always saved this, that and the other, and
you can answer it biblically and it can even be accurate,
but then you also have to go, what is somebody.
What might someone wrongly do with this now that I've
said that, right? And, um, obviously we, we want people
to take suicide, um, as seriously as possible that it is, it's,
(19:10):
you know, it's, it's the, it's the murder and just
because it's the self and when somebody says, well, it's
not as bad because it's mine, well, wait a minute,
the gospel says you're not your own, you've been bought
at a price.
And that's something, by the way, I've, I've talked to
believers who, you know, expressed, um, you know, some very
significant depression and, you know, would anyone care if I
(19:31):
was gone and I don't know. And, um, obviously besides
pointing them to, um, other resources, but on a theological
note as a pastor, I pointed out to 11 fundamental
flaw in your thinking.
Is that you don't belong to yourself anymore. I can
go along with you down that road of, yeah, if
my life was mine, then I'm just gonna get rid of.
(19:52):
I'm gonna do this and that, but I'm like, wait
a minute, didn't Jesus purchase you with his blood? And
they're like, yes, he did. Well then your life is
not your own. Doesn't matter that I don't like my life.
I don't like the way it's turned out that this
person left me that I got robbed. I'm, I'm in pain,
physical pain, all this. I don't want it.
The beautiful thing is, honestly, the self-surrender is part of
(20:14):
the gospel that we give ourselves to Christ. We no
longer live for ourselves. We, we live for God, and
I think, uh, for some people they need to be
reminded of that in that moment that part of our
discipleship is giving up our lives to God.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, I, I love what you're saying there too, Mike,
and I think about.
Yeah, not only is suicide, like I would say.
You know, like you're saying, like we belong to God,
but also I belong to my family. I belong to
this community, you know, and I think about like how
we actually steal, you know, like from those, like when
(20:53):
somebody takes their own life, they actually don't realize, man,
like the creator of devastation that they're making in a
community and a family. They're robbing them just of all
the joys and you know, that's, I guess that's the
big lie, right, that Satan.
That we are convinced in our minds that, you know,
our life is worthless, that no one loves us, that
(21:13):
it would be better if we were gone. And it's
an absolute lie, right? This, um, yeah, yeah, and I,
I hope that nobody heard, you know, anything on the
other side. I want there to also simultaneously be compassion
on the other side for those who have experienced this
kind of affliction, you know, and, and of course, been
(21:34):
overcome by it, so.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah, I mean, and again, it's like if we're, if
we're talking to somebody who has a professing.
Friend or family member that committed suicide, so we're talking
to them and we're trying to minister to that person.
We're taking the same word of God, same truth, but
applying it to that versus someone who's alive and saying,
I think because of course we're not gonna be, oh well,
you know what, if you.
(21:57):
Uh, if you commit sugiveness, God, God will forgive, you know,
of course, that would not be very pastoral, um, to
speak that way. That's why we would say, and, and again, I've,
I've heard people push back on this because suicide is selfish,
whether people recognize that or not. Some people are like, well,
if they're already depressed, depressed, don't say that it's selfish
because then it makes them feel bad. OK.
But to whatever extent a person is able to reason,
(22:19):
they're in a state of reasoning. I do think what
you said is so it is selfish, the damn because
I've seen it, the damage that it can do to
people who love that person the rest of their lives.
I mean, imagine a mother and a father, you know,
who loves their kid and they kill themselves and that parent,
(22:39):
even if they're a believing parent, they love Jesus, they
love the gospel, and let's even say they, they believe they're.
Uh, deceased son or daughter is, is in heaven, they
will wear that scar the rest of their lives. They
will walk the rest of the way to heaven with
a limp, you know, and, and that's just something where,
you know, we, we do need to live for God
and others and not just ourselves, and that's, that's fundamental
(23:02):
for all of us as believers, and that can relate
to a host of decisions we may or may not make,
Speaker 1 (23:08):
yeah, and probably part of this too is, yeah, we,
you know, we don't talk enough probably about.
Um, the resurrection, you know, the new age to come
and just all that God has for us. And, um,
my mom, uh, you know, sometimes she just has like
these ways of, she'll just, she's been marinating on these
truths and then she'll just say something and I'm like, wow,
(23:30):
like what an imaginative, like beautiful imaginative thought about this.
But I remember one time we were, she was talking
about just kind of everything that we lose in this life. Like,
God will give us back the life we should have had.
Without sin and evil and injustice in the world, it's like, wow,
so like even like the life, you know, the, the
truth about the resurrection is this is not your only life,
(23:54):
nor is it your best and the best is yet
to come, right?
Speaker 2 (23:57):
And that, and that's so encouraging because that should shape
how we live now, right? Like it's not just insurance
for after you die, it's like, no, this, this is formative.
I think of two quotes too in that regard, uh,
CS Lewis in eternity God will make right the wrongs
of time.
And Tolkien, in the end, what the gospel means is
in the end everything sad will become untrue, you know,
(24:17):
and just to, to remember that whatever difficulties, whatever season,
whatever slope of despondence or valley of the shadow of
death we find ourselves in, there is glory on the
other side because I think again Satan's lie, whether it's
the individual.
You know, contemplating suicide or just depression and looking to all,
I mean, just living for the world, living for all, it's,
(24:39):
it's short-sightedness, isn't it? I think in every case, it's
not seeing.
The big picture of the gospel and what God has
in store for those who loved him that he wants,
according to Paul in 1 Corinthians, to reveal to us
even now through the Holy Spirit the things no eye
has seen, no ears or nor entered in the heart
of the man, the things that God has prepared for
those who love him, and he is revealing that now
(25:01):
through the gospel and through the Spirit. So there's, there's
so much in the gospel.
To keep us living life for God's glory here and now,
and I think obviously understanding the life to come, the resurrection,
world without end, this is such a glorious thought, and
I think we should take comfort and courage in it.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Anyone who's contemplating suicide, but who knows someone who did
it or even if it's just, you know, some celebrity
or whatever, but I would think that the person would,
if anybody's thinking, oh, nobody's going to miss me as
much as they missed that person, like if they know
someone who did it, and then, yeah, they saw the
(25:44):
devastation that the family went through and everything, and they're thinking, yeah, well,
that's them. If I do it, it's going to be
better for everybody. What do you say to that person?
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's just.
I mean, unfortunately, I mean, the individuals just convinced themselves,
you know, that their life is valueless, meaningless, right? It's
this strange, um, depraved, um, degradation of the self, right?
(26:11):
And just
Yeah, I don't, I don't mean.
It, it's hard in those situation like pastorally to convince
somebody of their value, to convince somebody of their belovedness.
And I think this is those areas where, and we
just ask for the Holy Spirit to reveal. Like I
think about Paul, like he talks about how the Holy
(26:34):
Spirit works to reveal God's love to us, right? He's, uh,
quoting like New King James here.
Um, but the love of God has been shed abroad
in our hearts by the power and presence of the
Holy Spirit, you know, or Paul, you know, in another
place talks about how the Spirit, you know, testifies with
our spirit that we are children of God.
(26:55):
I think in those moments, like, you know, what I
felt is just, man, this desperate interceding in that moment, like, Lord,
would this person just, would you reveal to them their
innate value, just how much you love them, that their
life matters. And I think those moments to me are
just
They're heartbreaking, you know, and, and who knows, right? What
(27:16):
has created this scenarios it's a family where, you know,
you were never loved, you were never
Um, appreciated and praised in these things, you know, that you,
or you've lost so much that you don't think it's
worth living anymore. Like I have no idea what the
background of an individual is in these moments, but I
know that God can get through, you know, the most petrified, um,
(27:40):
hardened hearts, you know, hardened by sin, hardened by the
sin that's been done to us.
Uh, the awful experiences that we had that God can
break through all those things. And so that's what I
would hope and pray for in those moments. Just they
would have a revelation of God's love for them.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Yeah, Psalm 27:10, even if my father and mother forsake me,
the Lord will take me in. The Lord will hold
me close, you know, it's even if, even if, and
sometimes like I think you're saying, Jarra, it's, it's rare
and then people say, oh, nobody loves me. Nobody can,
chances are for many people there are, but hypothetically you're
(28:18):
abandoned by everyone who ought to love you, and yet
the Lord loves you. The Lord will take you in.
I think that's a beautiful thing to know that.
As long as there is an eternal living God, there
is always someone who loves you.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Absolutely, yeah, and for, I mean, there could be people
listening even now that maybe this is your story. This
is a moment where you might actually have a revelation
of God's love for you because you've lost everything else, right?
You don't have anything in your life that is filling
that deep human need to be loved, to belong, to
have value. And so this is a moment where God
(28:52):
wants to reveal the love that He has for you.
If this is something you're going through, we uh wanna
remind you about the suicide and crisis lifeline that you
can call on your phone, or you can even text.
It's 988, kind of like 911 if you were having
a medical emergency, but uh this is 988, it's available 24/7.
So if that is your situation,
(29:14):
Uh, definitely, even, you know, talk to a counselor, a pastor,
a therapist. There's so much help available out there. Jody,
thank you for your phone call today here on Pastor's Perspective.
We've got another 30 minutes and we would love to
talk to you at 888-564-6173. Joe, you're gonna be next. Terry,
call back. We were gonna take your call and then
you hung up. But uh we'll be back in just
(29:37):
a little bit here on Pastor's Perspective.
(30:15):
All right, we're back on Pastor's perspective. Thanks so much
for listening and for watching as well on Facebook, YouTube,
and Instagram. I'm Brian Perez, and if you've got a
question for Pastors Char Broderson or Mike Chaddock, give us
a call at 888-564-6173. We're gonna be here for about
another 25 more minutes, so please call in. Joe, listening
(30:36):
in the greater Los Angeles area, not the lesser Los
Angeles area, but the greater Los Angeles area. Thanks for
calling in to Pastor's perspective, Joe.
Yes, sir. Thank you very much for having me, guys. OK, guys,
I'm gonna make my question kind of quick and very strong,
and I'm looking for the strongest answer you can give
me perhaps to calm my mind. Here it goes.
(30:59):
Uh, gentlemen, I had a really ugly argument with my brother,
older brother, and, uh, it got really bad that we
both used really bad foul language toward each other, and
it got to the point where
This is not the 1st, probably not the 5th time
that he says to me, Well, you can keep this
(31:21):
and that and shove it where the sun. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
we get the idea. Please don't say it, OK. And he,
he went as far to tell me you can take
your God and shove him there as well. And the
question to you guys is.
How many times can someone say something so stupid before
they don't have forgiveness of the Lord ever again, or,
(31:42):
or am I correct, uh, asking that incorrectly? That's what
I wanna know. OK, sure.
Hm.
Yeah, I mean,
I think that this was addressed by Jesus, right? I mean,
Peter says, you know, how many times should my, you know,
if my brother sins against me, how many times should
I forgive him? Peter's got, you know, he thinks he's
going to really impress Jesus with this one. Should I
(32:03):
do it 7 times, you know, Jesus, and he's like, no,
I think like 7 times 70, you know, and so
the idea isn't like, OK, 490 is the number. OK, 491,
that's it. I'm free. I'm absolved of any forgiveness. But
you know what Jesus reveals in his teaching is that
And God is full of grace and mercy. I just quoted, uh,
(32:25):
Exodus 34 earlier, which is the Bible's favorite verse. It
quotes this verse more than any other verse. Um, but
it tells us that God forgives sin, iniquity, and rebellion.
It's just what he does. Like, yeah, he's in the
business of forgiving people, and he is just filled with
grace and compassion and mercy. And part of salvation.
(32:46):
is that God transforms us to be like Him. This
is why the scripture uses language that we are children
of God, that we are born again, that we are
sons and daughters of God, that Jesus is our brother,
because now we're in the family of God and we
are growing in God's likeness. And so just as God
(33:07):
is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love,
forgiving sin, iniquity, and rebellion,
This is what God wants to do in us too.
He wants to make us like that. And I would
also say too, that, you know, when we get into
confrontations like this, that these are things that we learn from,
these are things that we will, you know, as we
take stock of our own lives, man, I should not
(33:29):
have said that. Like this was an opportunity for me
to close my mouth. This was an opportunity for me
to just humble myself. Um, but all of these are
opportunities for us to go and to actually make amends
with these things, right? To
Go to your brother and to try to make amends.
Say like, hey, own up what you can and, you know,
(33:50):
say that you're sorry and walk in humility because, uh,
you are somebody who has committed yourself to God and
to be formed into his image. So whether your brother
is right or wrong, it actually doesn't matter.
As for you, Joe, you are called to bear the
image of the God who is gracious, compassionate, slow to anger,
(34:11):
and forgiving. And so forgiveness is actually about your spiritual formation. So, uh,
you mentioned Peter, and Peter told Jesus, you know, how
many times can my brother sin against me. So Joe
might say, well, my brother sinned against God because he said,
you know, take your God, etc. etc. So, yeah.
(34:33):
Yeah, I think, I think everything that I just said applies.
God is in the business of forgiving. And look, the
truth is every single human being has sinned against God,
does sin against God, and will continue to sin against
God until God finally eradicates all sin and evil in
the new age to come, you know, so God continually forgives, right?
(34:54):
We just talked about the thief on the cross, right?
God is willing to forgive to the final breath. That's
how gracious and kind God is in His forgiveness. Mike,
any thoughts?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Yeah, well, I mean, the, the, the state of a
human being in unbelief is one of rebellion, you know,
so God to allow unbelievers to exist has to deal
with rebellion 24/7, and that could come in the form
of profanity and.
Using his name in vain towards a host of sins,
breaking 10 commandments and every possible application of those, um,
(35:29):
God is gracious and compassionate. He does not delight in
the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked
would turn from their ways and repent. So God is
incredibly gracious towards those who are, who are outside, and
that sounds like, Joe, that's.
The condition of your brother, if he's not in Christ,
he's not born again. He does not have the spirit
of God. He can, he has no choice actually in
(35:50):
the matter other than to act according to the flesh.
He can act according to his own particular, uh, flesh
or sin nature in certain ways, which might mean propensities
to some things and away from others, but the Bible
uses the language of slavery, uh, that we are slaves
to sin, slaves to the flesh, and so we might
have choices of what sins we do, but that we
must sin. That's what the Bible says is the state.
(36:12):
Of the unregenerate, but as for you and, and for
I myself as Christians, obviously this is a matter of sanctification.
This has to do with growing in Christ. Obviously if
even if somebody, you know, let's say your brother starts it, right,
and he's antagonizing you and he's saying no doubt, uh,
some of the stuff he said was probably not directed
(36:33):
to God but at you knowing you are a Christian
and he's trying to rile you up so it's actually
God's being brought up but it's actually aimed at you
and pushing your buttons. So I would just remember and
have compassion that your brother is lost, your brother is lost.
And if he doesn't come home to Jesus Christ, he's
gonna be lost forever. And I think keep.
(36:56):
Keep the smaller things, the day to day things in
light of the big picture, you know, that like Paul,
I wanna do whatever I've got to do to reach
people for Christ. Obviously, if I'm saying or doing things that,
that is sinful, the Bible says, obviously I need to repent.
I need to confess first of all to God.
(37:17):
But if something was said, um, to your brother that
you do not think is befitting a follower of Christ,
I would take that step and confess that, confess that
and apologize uh for doing that and take ownership of
that and acknowledge God doesn't want you to do that. I,
I fell short of the glory of God, but this
is also an opportunity to preach.
(37:38):
The gospel, right? Because I think some people look at
us and think, oh, if you're a Christian, you have
to do everything right and if you do anything wrong
you've ruined your witness. I've actually heard Christians say that like, oh,
you gotta pretend you're perfect because you could ruin your witness.
Wait a minute, what am I a witness to that
I'm Jesus or that I was saved by Jesus? No,
I am a sinner, but I know a savior and
(37:58):
so when we fall, this is an opportunity to point
people past ourselves. Yes, of course we want to be
salt and light, we wanna be witnesses.
But the fact of the matter is we will fail
at times we absolutely will, and so I always want
to put the spotlight back on Jesus, back on the
grace of God, and if they say, oh, some Christian
(38:18):
or you, you lost your language with me when I,
when I mocked God or whatever, and you could say,
isn't this the glory of the gospel? Yes, I was wrong,
I failed, and Jesus forgives me and sets me free.
He would forgive even me for letting him down in
my witness for him. What beautiful grace is this.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Joe, thanks for calling in today to Pastor's Perspective. Now
we'll talk to Terry in Huntington Beach who's putting up
her Christmas lights right now. Welcome to the program, Terry.
Thank you so much. I
have a question on church etiquette. Is, if I'm in church,
is it OK for me to
use my phone
to take notes or to look at the Bible on
my phone, or I worry that people think I'm texting.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Terry, are you texting?
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Well, maybe a tiny bit,
Speaker 2 (39:04):
you know, yeah,
Speaker 1 (39:06):
that's thank you for your honesty too. Yeah, we had
a feeling. No, just kidding,
Speaker 2 (39:10):
that, that's step one, yeah, I'd say, so you actually
use the word etiquette, which is good because obviously I
think in some churches, um.
It might stand out that if anyone has a device
of any kind in their hand, you know, that's maybe
it's all print Bibles, you know, and so it's obviously
gonna stand out. I think other churches, you know, people,
(39:31):
they're used to that. People bring their tablets or their
phones and their Bible and, and to be honest, what I, I'll,
I'll do, uh, my phone sometimes too because I actually
have Bible software on there and I'll I'll look up
sometimes what's the Greek or Hebrew word on that as
we're studying it and I can do that immediately so
it's an amazing tool, but.
Obviously, I would probably just, you know, the issue of
(39:52):
distraction can come up, right? So number one, will you
be distracted? Because if my Bible's on my phone, what
happens when I get a text alert that I, that
I just got a message I can lose train of thought.
I might have to, you know, I might respond to that, um,
I might check my email. So just be mindful of yourself,
you know, number one, like, hey, can I.
Can I focus and meditate? I think that's the key word.
(40:14):
I really want to meditate on, on the word today
and on the Lord as I'm here and does using
my phone as a Bible allow me to do that
or does it prohibit that? And then secondly, I think you're,
you're wise and asking, hey, you know.
What is the etiquette of that church? Does it seem
to distract people? Do you notice that? Um, does nobody
else have a phone in their hand? If not, I
(40:34):
probably would not use one. if it seems to be
commonly accepted and the earlier criteria is met, then I
don't think it's necessarily a problem.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
It is a good point though, because how often might
we sit in church and notice somebody on their phone
and just assume that they're texting a friend or making
lunch plans or whatever, and when in reality it's our
sister Terry who's just, you know, taking notes or whatever.
So that might be a lesson to everyone. Char, what
do you think? Yeah, I think there's kind of two
(41:04):
things that hit me about this question.
I think just as a pastor of a local congregation, um, yeah,
I like the question about etiquette, right? And so it's like, OK, yeah,
like what is the culture of this church, you know,
kind of how do we, how do we do church together?
And I think, um, I love, you know, I love
to see a a church where Bibles are open and
(41:26):
there's just like this hunger and expectation. I think that's
great simultaneously.
I want to create a Christian community where everyone feels welcome.
And so if we create like these, you know, like
Bible people in the sense of like we throw shade
and judgment on anybody that doesn't use a physical Bible,
I think that's wrong. Yeah, I don't think that that
(41:49):
would be the way of Jesus, right? I think creating
a sense, man, like where you're using your phone or,
or even if you're distracted, gosh, we're glad you're here.
And like we believe that even in your distraction, God
can speak to you and arrest your attention immediately. And
so we don't like, oh man, I can't believe that
guy there he is, you know, just on his phone
every week, you know, it just probably says a little
(42:10):
bit more about me and where my headspace is. But
then Terry, I think just like Mike was saying, I
think it's a really good question. Just kind of ask
yourself like what helps me.
And if I am somebody that is easily distracted, you know,
they talk about like even, you know, glancing on social media,
you know, takes away our attention, uh, like, um, you know,
I think it's like a matter of minutes to get
(42:31):
it back to where it was. I, I can't remember
the exact, uh, stat at this moment, but when we
think about
The local church and what we're doing. We're gathering together.
Mike in the beginning, he was talking about this temple, uh,
picture that we see, right? That the body of, um,
Christ is the temple of God's Holy Spirit, that the
(42:53):
living God dwells in the midst of his people. And
we believe that if God's in the midst of his people, man,
anything could go down. That's exciting. There's anticipation for what
God might do.
And I think I find by and large that there
isn't a whole lot of anticipation in our congregations anymore, right?
And I remember there was this quote by I think
(43:14):
Annie Dillard where she talks about like,
You know, like you see people coming to church and
they're wearing their straw hat, you know, she lived like
100 years ago or whatever, but like, you know, they're
talking like the kind of their fancy weekend hats, you know,
she's like, they should be wearing crash helmets and people
should be passing out life preservers because the sleeping god
might wake up and draw us out to where we
(43:36):
can never return from.
And it's like, man, I want that kind of holy
anticipation when I come, like, man, the Lord Jesus is
going to meet with us and he's going to bring
healing and help and clarity and forgiveness and restoration. I
want that kind of like, man, what's gonna happen, you know,
and just to be alert and attentive. And so I think,
(43:56):
you know, you and I, we have to just kind
of do a little soul searching and think about like
what actually
You know, sets me up to be in tune with
the spirit of God and what He's doing, you know,
as as people gather to bring him worship.
Now, Terry, if people do look down upon you for
doing that, then just, you know, start coming to Calvary Chapel,
Costa Mesa cause as Char just said, you know, everyone's welcome. But, uh, no, seriously,
(44:21):
good question. Thank you for calling in today, Terry here
on the program. 888-564-6173 is the number to call. Oh,
I know what I was gonna ask, a follow up, uh,
when you mentioned that, uh, people should come anticipating.
I think a lot of that might be lost in
You know, uh, people talking about, you know, God's gonna
(44:43):
do the like these supernatural spectacular things. Gold dust is
gonna fall from the ground or from, not from the,
not gonna fall from the ground, fall from the sky.
That would be really interesting. But, um, you know, so
speak to that because I think people think that, oh no,
if a church doesn't have those kind of things happen, then,
you know, yeah, I mean, you know, interesting, the 1
Corinthians 12, which Mike is studying 1 Corinthians right now,
(45:05):
so this is fun.
But 1 Corinthians 12, we often call it, you know, oh,
it's a passage on spiritual gifts. It's actually more than
that because Paul is talking about not just gifts, but
manifestations of the spirit. And Paul implies that because we
belong to God, and each of us have the Holy Spirit,
the Holy Spirit can show up any moment in any one.
(45:28):
and accomplish whatever he wills. And so, as we come
to a gathering of God's people, we should actually be
expectant that the Spirit of God is going to show
up and wow, he may use me. God may give
me a tongue, and I don't have the gift of tongues,
but he could give me a gift, he could give
me a tongue, and he could give another person an
interpretation or a prophetic word or a word of wisdom.
(45:50):
And we all as the body of Christ,
who have various gifts and abilities and perspectives should be
in anticipation for how God might want to work and
use us. Also, through the preaching of the word, the
prophetic word, how God wants to speak to His people, right?
But sometimes we're thinking about, oh, this applies to so
(46:11):
and so, and this applies to, oh, now it's got
me thinking about what I need to shop for this week, right, Laurie?
It's an age of distraction. So how do I set
myself up to hear the word of the Lord, to
receive it, but also to participate in what the Spirit
might want to do as God's people gather together. So,
Speaker 2 (46:28):
you know, what's interesting is the Puritans began preparing for Sunday,
the day before. They began preparing their hearts, and I, I,
there's something to that idea, right? Like, number one, I
think a lot of people.
If they go to church, it, you know, it's on
their calendar or gonna get their go, but I mean
the sense of anticipation that you come with that that
(46:50):
preparation like being in a place where you expect to
encounter God because I think people assume like God's glory
will just be automatically imposed on them whether they're they
have eyes to see it or not, but Jesus literally
is the glory of God tabernacle amongst us and yet.
All day long people would miss it. God's glory walking
(47:12):
in the midst of them, they had no eyes to see.
As a matter of fact, it's ironic, right in the
Gospels how sometimes it's only the blind, Son of David
of Mercy. They're able, they're able to see that he's
a Messiah, but people with eyes can't see when Paul
says that, you know, you are the holy of holies,
you're the holiest place where God's glory dwells. I, I
think when we actually walk into our church and stuff and,
(47:33):
and we, you know, we do this week after week.
Um, I think we miss it because it's seen by faith.
I don't think it's always tangible in the, you know,
in a physical sense, or, oh, it's this, that and
the other, and, and there's ways to sort of summon
up emotion and things like that. And, but I think,
you know, it's, it's very much about the heart's ability
(47:54):
to see through the eyes of faith, and I, and
I do think there's something, it doesn't have to be
the day before, but there's something I think about, I
would actually encourage anyone listening, just try this out like.
An hour or so, maybe a little more, but an
hour before you leave for church, whichever time it is,
spend that hour preparing yourself to hear from God and
to meet with God's people. Just meditate on that. Think
(48:16):
about where, where I'm going. Look at 1 Corinthians 3:16
as a guiding verse. Prepare myself. I, Lord, give me
eyes to see. Help me not just to see the
pews and the, and the pastor and the pulpit and
the people. Help me to see your, your glory being
expressed through all this. That
Speaker 1 (48:33):
is like such a.
Powerful, I don't know like an arresting picture. Like you
think about even like the prophet says about Jesus, right?
He has no form or comeliness that we should desire him.
And so, like when we think about the church, like, right,
you're talking about, OK, Jesus is the incarnation of God.
He is the living dwelling presence of God in our midst,
but there's nothing on the outside of him.
(48:54):
That stands out. Like you're not looking at him, he's
not shining, right? There's, you know, he's not picking up
sheep and walking with them. And, you know, you like,
you know, some of the weird pictures that we sometimes
kind of get in our minds. He just looks like
anybody else. And you could judge from the outside, oh,
who is this, you know, just dismiss it. And in
that same way, I love what you're saying, like about
our congregations, the spirit of the living God dwells in
(49:15):
the midst of them, and we could just see.
Ordinary people, nothing, nothing value here.
And yet these are God's people that he dwells in
the midst of. Like it really does like.
Man, it like it heightens the game in that sense.
Like
Speaker 2 (49:32):
maybe you'll know Char CS Lewis was talking about this.
It might have.
I don't know if it was letters to Malcolm or
in the screw tape, but he was talking about there's
no ordinary persons. If we only had the eyes to
see that these are our spiritual brothers and sisters, we're
gonna share eternity together. Every person is made in the
image of God. But do we really see people as
(49:53):
being made in the image of God, or that person's
just a problem? I've gotta get or I've, I've got
to pass that problem over there. But if we had
eyes of faith to really see.
You know, because like you said, I think honestly, like.
The funny thing is we have to do so much
in America it seems like to attract people and get
them to come to church. What I love about the
(50:14):
early church, they had none of that. They had none
of that. They met in homes, right? They were humble, broken,
but what did they have? They have the gospel to
those who had eyes of faith, they could see the
holy of holies was present among them, and that's not
something you can buy.
Or you can just build or put together with human
(50:34):
gifts and talents it's something only God can give by
grace and only seen by faith,
Speaker 1 (50:39):
so good.
Yeah, I was just thinking about, yeah, just kind of
this whole idea that we're talking about, right? The
Presence of God in the midst of his people, talking
about preparing ourselves and a moment ago I was talking
about 1 Corinthians 12, just about the manifestation of the Spirit,
but also the gifts of the Spirit. So, you know,
how do I come with this idea that I'm not
just there to receive, but I'm there to participate. I'm,
(51:01):
I'm here to, to, you know, give something of myself
and to share, you know, some spiritual gifts, spiritual enrichment
to others, you know, uh, I was years ago studying,
I think it was 1 Corinthians again, um.
And the early church, uh, borrowed a word from culture
to describe their church gathering. So there was a common
(51:23):
word for, um, religious, you know, like going to a
temple and participating in some kind of temple sacrifice, pagan sacrifice,
and the word was orgy. This is uh what you
would do. And it was a, a group experience, but
it was all about the individual.
And the early church chose to use the word liturgy
(51:43):
to describe what they were doing because it was a
work done by us, but for us, right? It's like
I saw and realized that I was part of something
bigger than myself, but I had a part to play
and I was also benefited as well. And I think
You know, I think in the Western society, we really
(52:03):
lost um an understanding of that, you know, just going
back to this idea of temple together, you know, being
built on one another, um, we are the temple of
God containing the Holy Spirit that we
We all have a part to play. It's not just
about a sermon being given, but it's also a part, my,
excuse me, about my participation in serving others and caring
(52:26):
for others and good listening and encouragement and affirmation or hospitality,
how I receive somebody as they come, as they are,
you know, OK, you're, you're not too much, you know, let,
let me carry what you're carrying, you know, so.
The ways that we should be thinking about what it
means to be the church and what it means when
we gather together, you know, kind of what we are
(52:48):
doing together. I think
Speaker 2 (52:49):
that's a good word. And I think again, when you're
preparing yourself, just even meditating and, and praying, Lord, I,
I help me to see your glory, help me to
grow in the grace of Jesus Christ, help me to
love and serve my brothers and sisters, give me eyes
to see opportunities to minister today, and I think.
You know, a lot of times we have opportunities for,
you know, volunteer, you can do this, you can do that,
(53:10):
but I would say even a person who, who can't
or doesn't feel come with an attitude of service though,
because you have no idea how meaningful it can be
to simply greet somebody in love to truly like, I mean,
if you're, I was telling, sharing this with my, my teenagers,
you know, I mean.
It might seem a small thing to greet somebody, but
(53:31):
if you ever have known what it was like to
have your first day at a new school, how meaningful
was it to be welcomed the first time by somebody
that said, we're glad you're here, you belong, and not
as a.
You know, cheesy marketing thing, but genuinely, in a way,
we have, you know, greeting teams and stuff. But I
also think sometimes it can be even more meaningful when
(53:53):
it comes from a person with no official position or anything.
It's just pure genuine agape love of God. I just
wanna welcome you are wanted here. We, we love you.
We're glad you're here.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
Yeah,
I love that. All right, one more call, Nathaniel. Go ahead.
We're running out of time. What's your question?
Yeah, so I was reading through Genesis and got to
verse 3:16, where God tells Eve, your, um, childbirth will
now cause pain soon. I was wondering, is that mentioned
because Cain was born before the fall?
(54:31):
Um, I've never heard, um, an interpretation like that before.
I think this would probably be a callback to when
God says to them, be fruitful and multiply. So Adam
and Eve already know that this is part of their
mission that's been given to them by God, right? That
they are to produce, make other image bearers who will
(54:51):
partner with God and will spread out, you know, the
boundaries of God's
Edenic kingdom to the ends of the earth. And so
I think it would be more a throwback to this
multiplying now because of sin is going to include, um,
pain and struggle. OK. All right, thank you. All right, thanks,
Nathaniel for calling in today to Pastor's perspective, and that's
(55:12):
all the time we have. Thank you so much for
joining us today. We're gonna archive today's episode on the
usual places, Facebook, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify. If you missed
any part of it or just wanna hear it again.
Or if you want to share it with your friends,
you can. And then if you've got a question for us,
we will be here tomorrow between 3 and 4 p.m.
Pacific time. God bless you guys for Pastor Char Broderson
(55:33):
and Pastor Mike Chaddock. I'm Brian Perez, and we'll be
here tomorrow on Pastor's Perspective.
Hello. Welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez,
and uh we're here live on this Monday. We would
love to talk to you at 888-564-6173. We take questions
about the Bible, the Christian faith, maybe you have a
question about uh something your pastor said yesterday at church.
We would love to talk about that, especially if your
(00:39):
pastor was Char Broderson or Mike Shattuck because they're in
the studio today.
We would love to hear that. Uh, Char is the
lead pastor of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. Mike is the
pastor of Image Church in, uh, San Juan Capistrano, and
we're here. What are you guys up to, Mike and Char?
How'd it go this past Sunday, yesterday?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
It went amazing. Um, I'm personally, we're teaching through the
Book of First Corinthians and
I, I don't know, I just in my own study
and preparation like there's always the danger of preachers when
they're preparing they think of it as, OK, this is
for other people I'm gonna bring that, you know, because
you wanna do a good job and you wanna all
that but I just, um, man, it just was fully
(01:22):
preached to me in a a weighty sort of way
where I'm just like I was kind of floored, uh,
by what by what we were studying and what I
was reading it hit me personally and.
I saw areas where I can improve. I, I'm excited
about improving and pursuing the mission of God and, uh,
particularly talking about like the unity of the church. We're
(01:43):
looking at 1 Corinthians 3:16 where Paul says, you, you plural,
not individual, you plural, you all are the temple of
God in the word.
Temple is not the normal word for the general precincts
of the temple. It's, uh, which would be Huron, it's
not us, which is the Greek rendering of the Kodesh Kodaim,
the holy of holies. The New Testament church people called
(02:05):
out in the Messiah when they are gathered together in
His name, the Holy of Holies, and I was just like.
I mean, I'm sure I've seen this before and, and
then in the context, yeah, yeah, you know, you know
that to be true, but I guess the nuance of
what Paul is saying and in, in the context of
the problem of unity, that's what he's been addressing since
chapter 1 verse 10 all the way to the end.
(02:26):
Of 4 and it's like, wow, like, for Paul, unity
is a matter of holiness and people who divide around
different teachers and I think by extension denominations, it's, you know,
we don't think denomination equals division, but at the same time.
Um, the attitude, um, that divisive rivalry, prideful us versus
(02:47):
them towards other Christians is so sinful actually in Paul's
eyes when he speaks of us as the, the holy
of holies, the place where the one God, the one God,
not the many, the one God dwells. So anyway, I could, uh,
I should probably stop there. I'm just excited. I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
That's
cool. That's interesting because I mean yesterday we were in
Mark 13.
And you know, looking at the questions about the destruction
of the temple in Jerusalem and the Second Coming and
these things that, but I had noticed in, um, my
studying that Mark is actually developing the tale of two temples.
And so, uh, 11 through 12, it's the destruction of
(03:25):
the temple in Jerusalem. 14 and 15 is the destruction
of the temple in Jesus. And Mark has been developing,
you know, Jesus, Messiah's temple, a hermeneutic all throughout Mark.
But here it is like both.
Temples are doomed to destruction, and yet God will raise
up Jesus Messiah, and he will gather, uh, you know,
(03:46):
when the Son of Man comes, he will gather, um,
the elect from the four corners, from the ends of
heaven and ends of earth together in Him. So like,
the house for all nations that became identity thieves had failed,
doomed to destruction.
Uh, the leaders rise up and doom Jesus to destruction,
put him to death. God raises him up and fulfills
(04:06):
what temple was always meant to do, to gather all
God's people together and, you know, to worship the one
true
God
Speaker 2 (04:11):
100. 0 man, it's like that's so rich. It's I
mean because, and again, like with the Old Testament temple,
which was real, but it was not the real thing.
It was a type. It was pointing.
And the the threat kind of looming always in the
Old Testament is that the glory of God could always
depart because of the sinfulness of man, but the true
and better temple Jesus Christ, who more fully reveals the
(04:34):
glory of God and the glory will never depart Jesus
Christ as our temple, it's guaranteed in him.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
So if you want to talk about this or anything else,
the phone lines are open at 888-564-6173. You can also
send us your questions on Facebook and Instagram, or through
the pastor's perspective page at Kwave.com, but our favorite way
is to talk to you at
888-564-6173, and I think we'll start right on the phones, uh,
(05:03):
before we go to some of the questions that were
submitted online. This is Sylvia, who's listening to us on
the KWave app in Rialto, California. Thank you, Sylvia, for
downloading the app and for calling in today.
Thank you very much. I'm so excited to just be
able to speak to all of you. Oh, thank you, Sylvia.
My question was, uh, my question was, um, as a Christian,
(05:27):
are we allowed to, uh, donate blood or plasma, you know, right.
OK, so, uh, what, uh, brought, uh, brought up this
question to you?
Well, I used to do it many years ago, like
donate plasma. I mean, donate blood for, you know, just
to help out others that are in need. And, um,
(05:48):
and since I've um became a Christian, I have not
donated anything because I was not
sure. Did somebody tell you you're not supposed to?
No, nobody told me, but to me, I just feel like,
you know, God is in me. And, you know, if
(06:08):
I just give my blood out, I'm just giving a
piece of God away. I don't
know. Interesting. All right silly,
but, but I was just curious. You know, it's something
that's been on my mind and, and, uh, I've been
getting emails, you know, to go donate, but, since I
was unsure, you know, I just.
(06:29):
That I ask.
All right, Char, we'll start with you. Yeah, I think
this is one of those areas where like theologically, as
far as the Bible is concerned, there's nothing in Scripture
that would prohibit, uh, people from doing something like this. Um,
of course, there are certain Christian cults that, that do
refuse this act, and I'm not actually, um, privy as
(06:51):
to why, but, um, but Sylvia, even back to kind
of what you were saying a moment ago, you know, giving.
You know, giving a piece of God to others, you know,
I don't actually think that that's what would be happening
in you donating your blood, but I do think that's
an interesting idea. Like when we just think about, isn't
this actually what Christians are supposed to do? Like to
(07:12):
give of ourselves, uh, as a picture of what God
has done for us, right? The, the whole point of, um,
God's love is that it reaches me, transforms my life,
and then I become a channel through which God's love
actually reaches out and touches other people. And the Bible
actually says that God's love is completed. It actually fulfills
(07:35):
the purpose for which it's sent out when I begin
to love others in the same way that God has
loved me. And so I actually think, you know, it
just is practically speaking, like donating blood is actually a
very Christian act in that sense, right? To do something
that would, um,
You know, takes of myself as a sacrifice for myself, uh,
to give life and health to others, you know, that's
(07:57):
a very Jesus-like thing to do. And then we can
even talk about organ donation, you know, Mike, what, what
do you think about
Speaker 2 (08:03):
all this?
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, like Jesus said,
the two great commandments are number 1, love the Lord
your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength,
and number 2, love your neighbor as yourself. And so
I think loving God, loving people are at the center
of Christian ethics and, and life and what.
Uh, what better way, uh, to be giving and quite
(08:23):
literally life giving, right? You know, Jesus, I mean, and,
you know, obviously want to be careful with, with the analogies,
but I mean Jesus literally gave his blood for us
and while we're not atoning for anyone or anything like that,
the idea of giving of ourselves and being sources of
life to people, um, I think is, is, it ties
(08:44):
to a biblical picture like Jesus said.
You know that you will that streams of living water, uh,
which sustains life are gonna come pouring out of you
the idea we're to be God's life giving agents in
the world so I, I think it's a beautiful way of,
of serving our, our fellow human beings who are made
in the image of God. We are not God, but
(09:05):
we are made in the image of God and so
I think it's a wonderful way of loving and serving people.
I actually do it regularly myself, by the way.
Um, I do think, uh, some cults, and I know, I,
I think Jehovah's Witnesses, this was their rationale, they, um,
they look at Old Testament passages, um, and, and there's
actually a few references to it in the new as
(09:26):
well when the apostles and Acts are debating the Jewish
Gentile relations, you know.
And there are certain prohibitions against blood, and I can
understand why, uh, some well-meaning people could get misconstrued about,
oh gosh, well, is, is, is donating blood and transfusions
the same thing as drinking, uh, blood in a pagan
(09:46):
ritual context. And I think the obvious answer is no,
it's important to understand the context of.
Why those prohibitions are there, um, the various pagan groups, uh,
had demonic rituals actually involved with the consuming of blood
and not just killing animals, but they would strangle them
a certain way, kill them a certain way, and it
(10:06):
was all involved and God wanted his people to be separate.
He wanted them to be separate, um, so there's a
number of things.
They were not supposed to do, um, as a sign
of them being separate. But of course we're under the
new covenant and understanding the context of course of a
blood transfusion is uh not a religious ritual uh of
any kind and rather as a Christian, we are reaching
(10:28):
out and serving our neighbors through providing literally a life
giving resource which is blood.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Sylvia, what do you think of these answers?
Uh, I love them because, you know, like I said,
Speaker 2 (10:39):
it was something that was just on my mind and,
and I hadn't done it because I was unsure, you know,
and it didn't cross my mind to even ask my
pastor about it. But, you know, I was like, you
know what, let me call in and find out because
I need to know. Absolutely. Yeah, better and
And that way I can continue doing what I, you know,
(11:02):
love to do is to give back to others, you know,
to help out in every way that I can, because,
you know, like you said, that's something that reflects, uh,
in us from God, you know, to show people that,
you know, God is, is living and that he's living
through us, and, you know, that he needs to shine
(11:22):
through so that others can see that there's hope out there.
That's right.
And we actually had this situation come up in our
church not too long ago, one of our church members
was on death's door and needed uh emergency blood transfusion
and a bunch of people in our church went and
gave blood and honestly it was just a beautiful picture
like you just said, Sylvia. I think you, you said
(11:44):
it so well. It's, it is a wonderful way of
of serving people.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Thanks for your phone call today on Pastor's Perspective at 888-564-6173.
Now we'll talk to Jody in Buena Park. Hello, thanks
for calling, Jody. How can we help you?
Hi, thank you.
OK, my question, I got two. my dad was on
his deathbed.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
My mom asked him if he would accept Jesus Christ,
and he said yes. So he was not a, a
holy man his whole life, but does that mean he
gets to go to heaven? And what about someone committing suicide?
So to answer the first question, I'm, I'm so blessed
to hear that and absolutely a person who is not
a good person who accepts Jesus Christ, uh, is born
(12:29):
again and goes to heaven, and the fact is no
one is good like the apostle Paul is clear in Romans,
no one has done good, no, not even one we've
all sinned, we've all.
Fallen short of the glory of God and that includes
someone a, a deathbed conversion and obviously the, I, I mean,
I think one of the most paradigmatic examples of this
is the thief on the cross. By definition, he, he was,
(12:53):
he was being killed for living a bad life. This
was not a good man by anybody's definition, not Jewish definition,
not Roman definition. He's a good man, and he even
acknowledged he deserved to die actually on the cross. That's
one of the.
Uh, actually, and that's a part of repentance and confession. Like,
not just did he see Jesus as Lord, he confessed
he was a sinner. He recognized that. And yet by
(13:15):
placing faith in Jesus, Jesus said, surely this day you
will be with me in paradise. And, and, and I
think some of us push back on that because we
say to ourselves, gosh, that is not fair.
And that is absolutely right. It is not fair and
thank God that God through the gospel is dealing with
us according to grace and not according to what we deserve.
(13:36):
I don't want to get what I deserve when it
comes to being judged by the righteous standards of God.
None of us do. So praise God for grace, and I'm,
I'm so thankful to hear that, uh, for your father.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Yeah, yeah, I would, I absolutely, totally agree. I think
also though there is that innate kind of sense of like, wait.
Like you said, like, isn't this wrong? Like it's unfair.
And I think, OK, setting that aside for a moment, like,
is this what God wants, right? Like, you know, and
like when we read in scripture, like salvation is not
just about like deliverance from death and separation from God,
(14:12):
you know, it's not just about, you know, on the end, it's, oh,
you're making a decision about two destinations, right?
Salvation is about, you know, being brought back to God
and being in relationship with God. And I think discovering
what it means to be his image bearer, what it
means to be his friend, what it means to be
God's partner in the world that he, um, you know,
I remaking, right? And and including us in that kingdom work.
(14:35):
And so I think there is something right in us
that goes like, wait a second, that's not what God
wants though, right? And I'd say, yes, correct. Like God
wants like the whole of our lives, you know, from
birth to death through death out the other side, and
yet the grace of God is so big.
That even people that their whole, you know, physical life
(14:59):
on here would reject him and resist him and rebel
against him, even to the final hour, he will show grace.
And I would say gladly welcome them into his kingdom.
You know, that's like the amazing thing about the character
of God. Um, yeah.
The other question that you asked, the question of suicide,
(15:21):
I think this is just such a heavy and yeah, just,
I don't know how else to say it, but just
such a serious question. Um,
I think what we need to understand about suicide, and I'll,
I'll only speak to those who belong to Jesus, right?
And I actually have a family member who gave his
(15:42):
life to Jesus for many, many years, just struggled. Um,
you know, there was mental illness, there was addiction, and
this person worked and tried and, you know, truly, I
would say like, was repentant, but really stuck.
And it came a point where he gave up. He
(16:03):
gave in. And when I think about like, how does
God feel towards those of us who struggle, right? How
does God feel towards those of us who, uh, the
devil sin gets victory over our lives? I think God
is full of compassion, you know, full of mercy, full
of grace, and there is nothing in scripture that would
(16:24):
indicate anywhere that suicide automatically means.
You know, damnation means separation from God. And I think, um,
if I'm not mistaken, Martin Luther was one theologian in
particular that really corrected this because the Catholic Church had actually, um,
I think, like indoctrinated that suicide was that automatic damnation.
(16:47):
And Luther really pushed back on the compassion of God and,
and God's, um, yeah, mercy to those who suffer and
are even overcome by the devil. And so,
I, I think in these situations, we just need to
hold a lot of grace and a lot of confidence in,
you know, the God who reveals Himself as compassionate, gracious, merciful,
(17:11):
slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love, forgiving sin, iniquity,
and rebellion, that this is, this is God's heart towards
people and even in a moment of weakness to, um,
to rescue them, to redeem them. So.
I'm glad you brought up Luther because that was 500
years ago and there's people who might think that this
is a new concept that it would be OK to
(17:31):
do it or or not OK, but that it would
be permissible because then there's the camp that would say, OK,
by what you just said right now it's like you're
giving permission for people to go ahead.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
I was
gonna speak to that, yeah, I mean, and that's why
I just think obviously like.
Communicating, especially on such serious topics and then we're doing
it in a format like this, um, you know, we
wanna try to address every like possible angle somebody could,
you know, misconstrue or I think it's important to not
(18:03):
read into, uh, what someone hasn't said.
Um, because Char didn't say, oh, therefore, it's, as a
matter of fact, if you follow it up with what
you said earlier about salvation is not just about dying
to go to heaven, it includes that, um, but it's
about more than that. Um, obviously, then suicide is, is
also tragic, not just in the sense of, you know, eternity, which,
(18:23):
you know, like you said, there's no biblical evidence that
if someone is a genuine believer and they were overcome
in a moment of, you know, whatever it is, grief, sorrow, depression,
whatever it is.
That they wouldn't go to heaven, but it, it does
rob them obviously of that life and work and ministry that,
so it is a tragedy and I think, you know, because, um,
(18:43):
there's a lot of doctrines where, you know, people ask us,
01 save always saved this, that and the other, and
you can answer it biblically and it can even be accurate,
but then you also have to go, what is somebody.
What might someone wrongly do with this now that I've
said that, right? And, um, obviously we, we want people
to take suicide, um, as seriously as possible that it is, it's,
(19:10):
you know, it's, it's the, it's the murder and just
because it's the self and when somebody says, well, it's
not as bad because it's mine, well, wait a minute,
the gospel says you're not your own, you've been bought
at a price.
And that's something, by the way, I've, I've talked to
believers who, you know, expressed, um, you know, some very
significant depression and, you know, would anyone care if I
(19:31):
was gone and I don't know. And, um, obviously besides
pointing them to, um, other resources, but on a theological
note as a pastor, I pointed out to 11 fundamental
flaw in your thinking.
Is that you don't belong to yourself anymore. I can
go along with you down that road of, yeah, if
my life was mine, then I'm just gonna get rid of.
(19:52):
I'm gonna do this and that, but I'm like, wait
a minute, didn't Jesus purchase you with his blood? And
they're like, yes, he did. Well then your life is
not your own. Doesn't matter that I don't like my life.
I don't like the way it's turned out that this
person left me that I got robbed. I'm, I'm in pain,
physical pain, all this. I don't want it.
The beautiful thing is, honestly, the self-surrender is part of
(20:14):
the gospel that we give ourselves to Christ. We no
longer live for ourselves. We, we live for God, and
I think, uh, for some people they need to be
reminded of that in that moment that part of our
discipleship is giving up our lives to God.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, I, I love what you're saying there too, Mike,
and I think about.
Yeah, not only is suicide, like I would say.
You know, like you're saying, like we belong to God,
but also I belong to my family. I belong to
this community, you know, and I think about like how
we actually steal, you know, like from those, like when
(20:53):
somebody takes their own life, they actually don't realize, man,
like the creator of devastation that they're making in a
community and a family. They're robbing them just of all
the joys and you know, that's, I guess that's the
big lie, right, that Satan.
That we are convinced in our minds that, you know,
our life is worthless, that no one loves us, that
(21:13):
it would be better if we were gone. And it's
an absolute lie, right? This, um, yeah, yeah, and I,
I hope that nobody heard, you know, anything on the
other side. I want there to also simultaneously be compassion
on the other side for those who have experienced this
kind of affliction, you know, and, and of course, been
(21:34):
overcome by it, so.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah, I mean, and again, it's like if we're, if
we're talking to somebody who has a professing.
Friend or family member that committed suicide, so we're talking
to them and we're trying to minister to that person.
We're taking the same word of God, same truth, but
applying it to that versus someone who's alive and saying,
I think because of course we're not gonna be, oh well,
you know what, if you.
(21:57):
Uh, if you commit sugiveness, God, God will forgive, you know,
of course, that would not be very pastoral, um, to
speak that way. That's why we would say, and, and again, I've,
I've heard people push back on this because suicide is selfish,
whether people recognize that or not. Some people are like, well,
if they're already depressed, depressed, don't say that it's selfish
because then it makes them feel bad. OK.
But to whatever extent a person is able to reason,
(22:19):
they're in a state of reasoning. I do think what
you said is so it is selfish, the damn because
I've seen it, the damage that it can do to
people who love that person the rest of their lives.
I mean, imagine a mother and a father, you know,
who loves their kid and they kill themselves and that parent,
(22:39):
even if they're a believing parent, they love Jesus, they
love the gospel, and let's even say they, they believe they're.
Uh, deceased son or daughter is, is in heaven, they
will wear that scar the rest of their lives. They
will walk the rest of the way to heaven with
a limp, you know, and, and that's just something where,
you know, we, we do need to live for God
and others and not just ourselves, and that's, that's fundamental
(23:02):
for all of us as believers, and that can relate
to a host of decisions we may or may not make,
Speaker 1 (23:08):
yeah, and probably part of this too is, yeah, we,
you know, we don't talk enough probably about.
Um, the resurrection, you know, the new age to come
and just all that God has for us. And, um,
my mom, uh, you know, sometimes she just has like
these ways of, she'll just, she's been marinating on these
truths and then she'll just say something and I'm like, wow,
(23:30):
like what an imaginative, like beautiful imaginative thought about this.
But I remember one time we were, she was talking
about just kind of everything that we lose in this life. Like,
God will give us back the life we should have had.
Without sin and evil and injustice in the world, it's like, wow,
so like even like the life, you know, the, the
truth about the resurrection is this is not your only life,
(23:54):
nor is it your best and the best is yet
to come, right?
Speaker 2 (23:57):
And that, and that's so encouraging because that should shape
how we live now, right? Like it's not just insurance
for after you die, it's like, no, this, this is formative.
I think of two quotes too in that regard, uh,
CS Lewis in eternity God will make right the wrongs
of time.
And Tolkien, in the end, what the gospel means is
in the end everything sad will become untrue, you know,
(24:17):
and just to, to remember that whatever difficulties, whatever season,
whatever slope of despondence or valley of the shadow of
death we find ourselves in, there is glory on the
other side because I think again Satan's lie, whether it's
the individual.
You know, contemplating suicide or just depression and looking to all,
I mean, just living for the world, living for all, it's,
(24:39):
it's short-sightedness, isn't it? I think in every case, it's
not seeing.
The big picture of the gospel and what God has
in store for those who loved him that he wants,
according to Paul in 1 Corinthians, to reveal to us
even now through the Holy Spirit the things no eye
has seen, no ears or nor entered in the heart
of the man, the things that God has prepared for
those who love him, and he is revealing that now
(25:01):
through the gospel and through the Spirit. So there's, there's
so much in the gospel.
To keep us living life for God's glory here and now,
and I think obviously understanding the life to come, the resurrection,
world without end, this is such a glorious thought, and
I think we should take comfort and courage in it.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Anyone who's contemplating suicide, but who knows someone who did
it or even if it's just, you know, some celebrity
or whatever, but I would think that the person would,
if anybody's thinking, oh, nobody's going to miss me as
much as they missed that person, like if they know
someone who did it, and then, yeah, they saw the
(25:44):
devastation that the family went through and everything, and they're thinking, yeah, well,
that's them. If I do it, it's going to be
better for everybody. What do you say to that person?
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's just.
I mean, unfortunately, I mean, the individuals just convinced themselves,
you know, that their life is valueless, meaningless, right? It's
this strange, um, depraved, um, degradation of the self, right?
(26:11):
And just
Yeah, I don't, I don't mean.
It, it's hard in those situation like pastorally to convince
somebody of their value, to convince somebody of their belovedness.
And I think this is those areas where, and we
just ask for the Holy Spirit to reveal. Like I
think about Paul, like he talks about how the Holy
(26:34):
Spirit works to reveal God's love to us, right? He's, uh,
quoting like New King James here.
Um, but the love of God has been shed abroad
in our hearts by the power and presence of the
Holy Spirit, you know, or Paul, you know, in another
place talks about how the Spirit, you know, testifies with
our spirit that we are children of God.
(26:55):
I think in those moments, like, you know, what I
felt is just, man, this desperate interceding in that moment, like, Lord,
would this person just, would you reveal to them their
innate value, just how much you love them, that their
life matters. And I think those moments to me are
just
They're heartbreaking, you know, and, and who knows, right? What
(27:16):
has created this scenarios it's a family where, you know,
you were never loved, you were never
Um, appreciated and praised in these things, you know, that you,
or you've lost so much that you don't think it's
worth living anymore. Like I have no idea what the
background of an individual is in these moments, but I
know that God can get through, you know, the most petrified, um,
(27:40):
hardened hearts, you know, hardened by sin, hardened by the
sin that's been done to us.
Uh, the awful experiences that we had that God can
break through all those things. And so that's what I
would hope and pray for in those moments. Just they
would have a revelation of God's love for them.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Yeah, Psalm 27:10, even if my father and mother forsake me,
the Lord will take me in. The Lord will hold
me close, you know, it's even if, even if, and
sometimes like I think you're saying, Jarra, it's, it's rare
and then people say, oh, nobody loves me. Nobody can,
chances are for many people there are, but hypothetically you're
(28:18):
abandoned by everyone who ought to love you, and yet
the Lord loves you. The Lord will take you in.
I think that's a beautiful thing to know that.
As long as there is an eternal living God, there
is always someone who loves you.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Absolutely, yeah, and for, I mean, there could be people
listening even now that maybe this is your story. This
is a moment where you might actually have a revelation
of God's love for you because you've lost everything else, right?
You don't have anything in your life that is filling
that deep human need to be loved, to belong, to
have value. And so this is a moment where God
(28:52):
wants to reveal the love that He has for you.
If this is something you're going through, we uh wanna
remind you about the suicide and crisis lifeline that you
can call on your phone, or you can even text.
It's 988, kind of like 911 if you were having
a medical emergency, but uh this is 988, it's available 24/7.
So if that is your situation,
(29:14):
Uh, definitely, even, you know, talk to a counselor, a pastor,
a therapist. There's so much help available out there. Jody,
thank you for your phone call today here on Pastor's Perspective.
We've got another 30 minutes and we would love to
talk to you at 888-564-6173. Joe, you're gonna be next. Terry,
call back. We were gonna take your call and then
you hung up. But uh we'll be back in just
(29:37):
a little bit here on Pastor's Perspective.
(30:15):
All right, we're back on Pastor's perspective. Thanks so much
for listening and for watching as well on Facebook, YouTube,
and Instagram. I'm Brian Perez, and if you've got a
question for Pastors Char Broderson or Mike Chaddock, give us
a call at 888-564-6173. We're gonna be here for about
another 25 more minutes, so please call in. Joe, listening
(30:36):
in the greater Los Angeles area, not the lesser Los
Angeles area, but the greater Los Angeles area. Thanks for
calling in to Pastor's perspective, Joe.
Yes, sir. Thank you very much for having me, guys. OK, guys,
I'm gonna make my question kind of quick and very strong,
and I'm looking for the strongest answer you can give
me perhaps to calm my mind. Here it goes.
(30:59):
Uh, gentlemen, I had a really ugly argument with my brother,
older brother, and, uh, it got really bad that we
both used really bad foul language toward each other, and
it got to the point where
This is not the 1st, probably not the 5th time
that he says to me, Well, you can keep this
(31:21):
and that and shove it where the sun. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
we get the idea. Please don't say it, OK. And he,
he went as far to tell me you can take
your God and shove him there as well. And the
question to you guys is.
How many times can someone say something so stupid before
they don't have forgiveness of the Lord ever again, or,
(31:42):
or am I correct, uh, asking that incorrectly? That's what
I wanna know. OK, sure.
Hm.
Yeah, I mean,
I think that this was addressed by Jesus, right? I mean,
Peter says, you know, how many times should my, you know,
if my brother sins against me, how many times should
I forgive him? Peter's got, you know, he thinks he's
going to really impress Jesus with this one. Should I
(32:03):
do it 7 times, you know, Jesus, and he's like, no,
I think like 7 times 70, you know, and so
the idea isn't like, OK, 490 is the number. OK, 491,
that's it. I'm free. I'm absolved of any forgiveness. But
you know what Jesus reveals in his teaching is that
And God is full of grace and mercy. I just quoted, uh,
(32:25):
Exodus 34 earlier, which is the Bible's favorite verse. It
quotes this verse more than any other verse. Um, but
it tells us that God forgives sin, iniquity, and rebellion.
It's just what he does. Like, yeah, he's in the
business of forgiving people, and he is just filled with
grace and compassion and mercy. And part of salvation.
(32:46):
is that God transforms us to be like Him. This
is why the scripture uses language that we are children
of God, that we are born again, that we are
sons and daughters of God, that Jesus is our brother,
because now we're in the family of God and we
are growing in God's likeness. And so just as God
(33:07):
is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love,
forgiving sin, iniquity, and rebellion,
This is what God wants to do in us too.
He wants to make us like that. And I would
also say too, that, you know, when we get into
confrontations like this, that these are things that we learn from,
these are things that we will, you know, as we
take stock of our own lives, man, I should not
(33:29):
have said that. Like this was an opportunity for me
to close my mouth. This was an opportunity for me
to just humble myself. Um, but all of these are
opportunities for us to go and to actually make amends
with these things, right? To
Go to your brother and to try to make amends.
Say like, hey, own up what you can and, you know,
(33:50):
say that you're sorry and walk in humility because, uh,
you are somebody who has committed yourself to God and
to be formed into his image. So whether your brother
is right or wrong, it actually doesn't matter.
As for you, Joe, you are called to bear the
image of the God who is gracious, compassionate, slow to anger,
(34:11):
and forgiving. And so forgiveness is actually about your spiritual formation. So, uh,
you mentioned Peter, and Peter told Jesus, you know, how
many times can my brother sin against me. So Joe
might say, well, my brother sinned against God because he said,
you know, take your God, etc. etc. So, yeah.
(34:33):
Yeah, I think, I think everything that I just said applies.
God is in the business of forgiving. And look, the
truth is every single human being has sinned against God,
does sin against God, and will continue to sin against
God until God finally eradicates all sin and evil in
the new age to come, you know, so God continually forgives, right?
(34:54):
We just talked about the thief on the cross, right?
God is willing to forgive to the final breath. That's
how gracious and kind God is in His forgiveness. Mike,
any thoughts?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Yeah, well, I mean, the, the, the state of a
human being in unbelief is one of rebellion, you know,
so God to allow unbelievers to exist has to deal
with rebellion 24/7, and that could come in the form
of profanity and.
Using his name in vain towards a host of sins,
breaking 10 commandments and every possible application of those, um,
(35:29):
God is gracious and compassionate. He does not delight in
the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked
would turn from their ways and repent. So God is
incredibly gracious towards those who are, who are outside, and
that sounds like, Joe, that's.
The condition of your brother, if he's not in Christ,
he's not born again. He does not have the spirit
of God. He can, he has no choice actually in
(35:50):
the matter other than to act according to the flesh.
He can act according to his own particular, uh, flesh
or sin nature in certain ways, which might mean propensities
to some things and away from others, but the Bible
uses the language of slavery, uh, that we are slaves
to sin, slaves to the flesh, and so we might
have choices of what sins we do, but that we
must sin. That's what the Bible says is the state.
(36:12):
Of the unregenerate, but as for you and, and for
I myself as Christians, obviously this is a matter of sanctification.
This has to do with growing in Christ. Obviously if
even if somebody, you know, let's say your brother starts it, right,
and he's antagonizing you and he's saying no doubt, uh,
some of the stuff he said was probably not directed
(36:33):
to God but at you knowing you are a Christian
and he's trying to rile you up so it's actually
God's being brought up but it's actually aimed at you
and pushing your buttons. So I would just remember and
have compassion that your brother is lost, your brother is lost.
And if he doesn't come home to Jesus Christ, he's
gonna be lost forever. And I think keep.
(36:56):
Keep the smaller things, the day to day things in
light of the big picture, you know, that like Paul,
I wanna do whatever I've got to do to reach
people for Christ. Obviously, if I'm saying or doing things that,
that is sinful, the Bible says, obviously I need to repent.
I need to confess first of all to God.
(37:17):
But if something was said, um, to your brother that
you do not think is befitting a follower of Christ,
I would take that step and confess that, confess that
and apologize uh for doing that and take ownership of
that and acknowledge God doesn't want you to do that. I,
I fell short of the glory of God, but this
is also an opportunity to preach.
(37:38):
The gospel, right? Because I think some people look at
us and think, oh, if you're a Christian, you have
to do everything right and if you do anything wrong
you've ruined your witness. I've actually heard Christians say that like, oh,
you gotta pretend you're perfect because you could ruin your witness.
Wait a minute, what am I a witness to that
I'm Jesus or that I was saved by Jesus? No,
I am a sinner, but I know a savior and
(37:58):
so when we fall, this is an opportunity to point
people past ourselves. Yes, of course we want to be
salt and light, we wanna be witnesses.
But the fact of the matter is we will fail
at times we absolutely will, and so I always want
to put the spotlight back on Jesus, back on the
grace of God, and if they say, oh, some Christian
(38:18):
or you, you lost your language with me when I,
when I mocked God or whatever, and you could say,
isn't this the glory of the gospel? Yes, I was wrong,
I failed, and Jesus forgives me and sets me free.
He would forgive even me for letting him down in
my witness for him. What beautiful grace is this.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Joe, thanks for calling in today to Pastor's Perspective. Now
we'll talk to Terry in Huntington Beach who's putting up
her Christmas lights right now. Welcome to the program, Terry.
Thank you so much. I
have a question on church etiquette. Is, if I'm in church,
is it OK for me to
use my phone
to take notes or to look at the Bible on
my phone, or I worry that people think I'm texting.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Terry, are you texting?
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Well, maybe a tiny bit,
Speaker 2 (39:04):
you know, yeah,
Speaker 1 (39:06):
that's thank you for your honesty too. Yeah, we had
a feeling. No, just kidding,
Speaker 2 (39:10):
that, that's step one, yeah, I'd say, so you actually
use the word etiquette, which is good because obviously I
think in some churches, um.
It might stand out that if anyone has a device
of any kind in their hand, you know, that's maybe
it's all print Bibles, you know, and so it's obviously
gonna stand out. I think other churches, you know, people,
(39:31):
they're used to that. People bring their tablets or their
phones and their Bible and, and to be honest, what I, I'll,
I'll do, uh, my phone sometimes too because I actually
have Bible software on there and I'll I'll look up
sometimes what's the Greek or Hebrew word on that as
we're studying it and I can do that immediately so
it's an amazing tool, but.
Obviously, I would probably just, you know, the issue of
(39:52):
distraction can come up, right? So number one, will you
be distracted? Because if my Bible's on my phone, what
happens when I get a text alert that I, that
I just got a message I can lose train of thought.
I might have to, you know, I might respond to that, um,
I might check my email. So just be mindful of yourself,
you know, number one, like, hey, can I.
Can I focus and meditate? I think that's the key word.
(40:14):
I really want to meditate on, on the word today
and on the Lord as I'm here and does using
my phone as a Bible allow me to do that
or does it prohibit that? And then secondly, I think you're,
you're wise and asking, hey, you know.
What is the etiquette of that church? Does it seem
to distract people? Do you notice that? Um, does nobody
else have a phone in their hand? If not, I
(40:34):
probably would not use one. if it seems to be
commonly accepted and the earlier criteria is met, then I
don't think it's necessarily a problem.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
It is a good point though, because how often might
we sit in church and notice somebody on their phone
and just assume that they're texting a friend or making
lunch plans or whatever, and when in reality it's our
sister Terry who's just, you know, taking notes or whatever.
So that might be a lesson to everyone. Char, what
do you think? Yeah, I think there's kind of two
(41:04):
things that hit me about this question.
I think just as a pastor of a local congregation, um, yeah,
I like the question about etiquette, right? And so it's like, OK, yeah,
like what is the culture of this church, you know,
kind of how do we, how do we do church together?
And I think, um, I love, you know, I love
to see a a church where Bibles are open and
(41:26):
there's just like this hunger and expectation. I think that's
great simultaneously.
I want to create a Christian community where everyone feels welcome.
And so if we create like these, you know, like
Bible people in the sense of like we throw shade
and judgment on anybody that doesn't use a physical Bible,
I think that's wrong. Yeah, I don't think that that
(41:49):
would be the way of Jesus, right? I think creating
a sense, man, like where you're using your phone or,
or even if you're distracted, gosh, we're glad you're here.
And like we believe that even in your distraction, God
can speak to you and arrest your attention immediately. And
so we don't like, oh man, I can't believe that
guy there he is, you know, just on his phone
every week, you know, it just probably says a little
(42:10):
bit more about me and where my headspace is. But
then Terry, I think just like Mike was saying, I
think it's a really good question. Just kind of ask
yourself like what helps me.
And if I am somebody that is easily distracted, you know,
they talk about like even, you know, glancing on social media,
you know, takes away our attention, uh, like, um, you know,
I think it's like a matter of minutes to get
(42:31):
it back to where it was. I, I can't remember
the exact, uh, stat at this moment, but when we
think about
The local church and what we're doing. We're gathering together.
Mike in the beginning, he was talking about this temple, uh,
picture that we see, right? That the body of, um,
Christ is the temple of God's Holy Spirit, that the
(42:53):
living God dwells in the midst of his people. And
we believe that if God's in the midst of his people, man,
anything could go down. That's exciting. There's anticipation for what
God might do.
And I think I find by and large that there
isn't a whole lot of anticipation in our congregations anymore, right?
And I remember there was this quote by I think
(43:14):
Annie Dillard where she talks about like,
You know, like you see people coming to church and
they're wearing their straw hat, you know, she lived like
100 years ago or whatever, but like, you know, they're
talking like the kind of their fancy weekend hats, you know,
she's like, they should be wearing crash helmets and people
should be passing out life preservers because the sleeping god
might wake up and draw us out to where we
(43:36):
can never return from.
And it's like, man, I want that kind of holy
anticipation when I come, like, man, the Lord Jesus is
going to meet with us and he's going to bring
healing and help and clarity and forgiveness and restoration. I
want that kind of like, man, what's gonna happen, you know,
and just to be alert and attentive. And so I think,
(43:56):
you know, you and I, we have to just kind
of do a little soul searching and think about like
what actually
You know, sets me up to be in tune with
the spirit of God and what He's doing, you know,
as as people gather to bring him worship.
Now, Terry, if people do look down upon you for
doing that, then just, you know, start coming to Calvary Chapel,
Costa Mesa cause as Char just said, you know, everyone's welcome. But, uh, no, seriously,
(44:21):
good question. Thank you for calling in today, Terry here
on the program. 888-564-6173 is the number to call. Oh,
I know what I was gonna ask, a follow up, uh,
when you mentioned that, uh, people should come anticipating.
I think a lot of that might be lost in
You know, uh, people talking about, you know, God's gonna
(44:43):
do the like these supernatural spectacular things. Gold dust is
gonna fall from the ground or from, not from the,
not gonna fall from the ground, fall from the sky.
That would be really interesting. But, um, you know, so
speak to that because I think people think that, oh no,
if a church doesn't have those kind of things happen, then,
you know, yeah, I mean, you know, interesting, the 1
Corinthians 12, which Mike is studying 1 Corinthians right now,
(45:05):
so this is fun.
But 1 Corinthians 12, we often call it, you know, oh,
it's a passage on spiritual gifts. It's actually more than
that because Paul is talking about not just gifts, but
manifestations of the spirit. And Paul implies that because we
belong to God, and each of us have the Holy Spirit,
the Holy Spirit can show up any moment in any one.
(45:28):
and accomplish whatever he wills. And so, as we come
to a gathering of God's people, we should actually be
expectant that the Spirit of God is going to show
up and wow, he may use me. God may give
me a tongue, and I don't have the gift of tongues,
but he could give me a gift, he could give
me a tongue, and he could give another person an
interpretation or a prophetic word or a word of wisdom.
(45:50):
And we all as the body of Christ,
who have various gifts and abilities and perspectives should be
in anticipation for how God might want to work and
use us. Also, through the preaching of the word, the
prophetic word, how God wants to speak to His people, right?
But sometimes we're thinking about, oh, this applies to so
(46:11):
and so, and this applies to, oh, now it's got
me thinking about what I need to shop for this week, right, Laurie?
It's an age of distraction. So how do I set
myself up to hear the word of the Lord, to
receive it, but also to participate in what the Spirit
might want to do as God's people gather together. So,
Speaker 2 (46:28):
you know, what's interesting is the Puritans began preparing for Sunday,
the day before. They began preparing their hearts, and I, I,
there's something to that idea, right? Like, number one, I
think a lot of people.
If they go to church, it, you know, it's on
their calendar or gonna get their go, but I mean
the sense of anticipation that you come with that that
(46:50):
preparation like being in a place where you expect to
encounter God because I think people assume like God's glory
will just be automatically imposed on them whether they're they
have eyes to see it or not, but Jesus literally
is the glory of God tabernacle amongst us and yet.
All day long people would miss it. God's glory walking
(47:12):
in the midst of them, they had no eyes to see.
As a matter of fact, it's ironic, right in the
Gospels how sometimes it's only the blind, Son of David
of Mercy. They're able, they're able to see that he's
a Messiah, but people with eyes can't see when Paul
says that, you know, you are the holy of holies,
you're the holiest place where God's glory dwells. I, I
think when we actually walk into our church and stuff and,
(47:33):
and we, you know, we do this week after week.
Um, I think we miss it because it's seen by faith.
I don't think it's always tangible in the, you know,
in a physical sense, or, oh, it's this, that and
the other, and, and there's ways to sort of summon
up emotion and things like that. And, but I think,
you know, it's, it's very much about the heart's ability
(47:54):
to see through the eyes of faith, and I, and
I do think there's something, it doesn't have to be
the day before, but there's something I think about, I
would actually encourage anyone listening, just try this out like.
An hour or so, maybe a little more, but an
hour before you leave for church, whichever time it is,
spend that hour preparing yourself to hear from God and
to meet with God's people. Just meditate on that. Think
(48:16):
about where, where I'm going. Look at 1 Corinthians 3:16
as a guiding verse. Prepare myself. I, Lord, give me
eyes to see. Help me not just to see the
pews and the, and the pastor and the pulpit and
the people. Help me to see your, your glory being
expressed through all this. That
Speaker 1 (48:33):
is like such a.
Powerful, I don't know like an arresting picture. Like you
think about even like the prophet says about Jesus, right?
He has no form or comeliness that we should desire him.
And so, like when we think about the church, like, right,
you're talking about, OK, Jesus is the incarnation of God.
He is the living dwelling presence of God in our midst,
but there's nothing on the outside of him.
(48:54):
That stands out. Like you're not looking at him, he's
not shining, right? There's, you know, he's not picking up
sheep and walking with them. And, you know, you like,
you know, some of the weird pictures that we sometimes
kind of get in our minds. He just looks like
anybody else. And you could judge from the outside, oh,
who is this, you know, just dismiss it. And in
that same way, I love what you're saying, like about
our congregations, the spirit of the living God dwells in
(49:15):
the midst of them, and we could just see.
Ordinary people, nothing, nothing value here.
And yet these are God's people that he dwells in
the midst of. Like it really does like.
Man, it like it heightens the game in that sense.
Like
Speaker 2 (49:32):
maybe you'll know Char CS Lewis was talking about this.
It might have.
I don't know if it was letters to Malcolm or
in the screw tape, but he was talking about there's
no ordinary persons. If we only had the eyes to
see that these are our spiritual brothers and sisters, we're
gonna share eternity together. Every person is made in the
image of God. But do we really see people as
(49:53):
being made in the image of God, or that person's
just a problem? I've gotta get or I've, I've got
to pass that problem over there. But if we had
eyes of faith to really see.
You know, because like you said, I think honestly, like.
The funny thing is we have to do so much
in America it seems like to attract people and get
them to come to church. What I love about the
(50:14):
early church, they had none of that. They had none
of that. They met in homes, right? They were humble, broken,
but what did they have? They have the gospel to
those who had eyes of faith, they could see the
holy of holies was present among them, and that's not
something you can buy.
Or you can just build or put together with human
(50:34):
gifts and talents it's something only God can give by
grace and only seen by faith,
Speaker 1 (50:39):
so good.
Yeah, I was just thinking about, yeah, just kind of
this whole idea that we're talking about, right? The
Presence of God in the midst of his people, talking
about preparing ourselves and a moment ago I was talking
about 1 Corinthians 12, just about the manifestation of the Spirit,
but also the gifts of the Spirit. So, you know,
how do I come with this idea that I'm not
just there to receive, but I'm there to participate. I'm,
(51:01):
I'm here to, to, you know, give something of myself
and to share, you know, some spiritual gifts, spiritual enrichment
to others, you know, uh, I was years ago studying,
I think it was 1 Corinthians again, um.
And the early church, uh, borrowed a word from culture
to describe their church gathering. So there was a common
(51:23):
word for, um, religious, you know, like going to a
temple and participating in some kind of temple sacrifice, pagan sacrifice,
and the word was orgy. This is uh what you
would do. And it was a, a group experience, but
it was all about the individual.
And the early church chose to use the word liturgy
(51:43):
to describe what they were doing because it was a
work done by us, but for us, right? It's like
I saw and realized that I was part of something
bigger than myself, but I had a part to play
and I was also benefited as well. And I think
You know, I think in the Western society, we really
(52:03):
lost um an understanding of that, you know, just going
back to this idea of temple together, you know, being
built on one another, um, we are the temple of
God containing the Holy Spirit that we
We all have a part to play. It's not just
about a sermon being given, but it's also a part, my,
excuse me, about my participation in serving others and caring
(52:26):
for others and good listening and encouragement and affirmation or hospitality,
how I receive somebody as they come, as they are,
you know, OK, you're, you're not too much, you know, let,
let me carry what you're carrying, you know, so.
The ways that we should be thinking about what it
means to be the church and what it means when
we gather together, you know, kind of what we are
(52:48):
doing together. I think
Speaker 2 (52:49):
that's a good word. And I think again, when you're
preparing yourself, just even meditating and, and praying, Lord, I,
I help me to see your glory, help me to
grow in the grace of Jesus Christ, help me to
love and serve my brothers and sisters, give me eyes
to see opportunities to minister today, and I think.
You know, a lot of times we have opportunities for,
you know, volunteer, you can do this, you can do that,
(53:10):
but I would say even a person who, who can't
or doesn't feel come with an attitude of service though,
because you have no idea how meaningful it can be
to simply greet somebody in love to truly like, I mean,
if you're, I was telling, sharing this with my, my teenagers,
you know, I mean.
It might seem a small thing to greet somebody, but
(53:31):
if you ever have known what it was like to
have your first day at a new school, how meaningful
was it to be welcomed the first time by somebody
that said, we're glad you're here, you belong, and not
as a.
You know, cheesy marketing thing, but genuinely, in a way,
we have, you know, greeting teams and stuff. But I
also think sometimes it can be even more meaningful when
(53:53):
it comes from a person with no official position or anything.
It's just pure genuine agape love of God. I just
wanna welcome you are wanted here. We, we love you.
We're glad you're here.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
Yeah,
I love that. All right, one more call, Nathaniel. Go ahead.
We're running out of time. What's your question?
Yeah, so I was reading through Genesis and got to
verse 3:16, where God tells Eve, your, um, childbirth will
now cause pain soon. I was wondering, is that mentioned
because Cain was born before the fall?
(54:31):
Um, I've never heard, um, an interpretation like that before.
I think this would probably be a callback to when
God says to them, be fruitful and multiply. So Adam
and Eve already know that this is part of their
mission that's been given to them by God, right? That
they are to produce, make other image bearers who will
(54:51):
partner with God and will spread out, you know, the
boundaries of God's
Edenic kingdom to the ends of the earth. And so
I think it would be more a throwback to this
multiplying now because of sin is going to include, um,
pain and struggle. OK. All right, thank you. All right, thanks,
Nathaniel for calling in today to Pastor's perspective, and that's
(55:12):
all the time we have. Thank you so much for
joining us today. We're gonna archive today's episode on the
usual places, Facebook, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify. If you missed
any part of it or just wanna hear it again.
Or if you want to share it with your friends,
you can. And then if you've got a question for us,
we will be here tomorrow between 3 and 4 p.m.
Pacific time. God bless you guys for Pastor Char Broderson
(55:33):
and Pastor Mike Chaddock. I'm Brian Perez, and we'll be
here tomorrow on Pastor's Perspective.
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