Pastors' Perspective-12/01/25

Pastors' Perspective is a one-hour call-in program where listeners can call in and get answers to questions about the Bible, Christianity, family, and life. The program is live Monday through Friday from 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM Pacific. You can call 888-564-6173 to ask your questions.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:18):
Hello. Welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez.
It is Monday, November 31st. I'm joking. There's no such
thing as November 31st, so it must be December 1st.
Welcome to the program. That's a joke I use every month.
I try to anyway, and, uh, sometimes it falls flat.
Most of the time it falls flat.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
I, I found it humorous.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
OK, thank you, Mike. Thank you. We're here till 4
o'clock to answer the questions you have about the Bible,
the Christian faith, just about anything that's on your mind.
Grab an open line while there's still time.
888-564-6173 is the number to call and answering your questions today,
we've got Char Broderson, the lead pastor at Calvary Chapel

(00:58):
Costa Mesa. Good to see you, Char. You weren't here
last Monday, we missed you.
Wait, oh yeah, where was I? Oh, I took a, yeah, that's,
I took some time off. That's right. I'm like, wait,
where was I? I missed you at church yesterday too, but, uh,
good to have you here back in the studio along
with Mike Chaddock, the pastor of Image Church in San
Juan Capistrano. How are
you,

Speaker 2 (01:17):
Mike? I am doing wonderful, great. Excited for this Christmas season.
Ah

Speaker 1 (01:22):
yes, tis the season.
And uh we, we can answer questions about Christmas if
you want, uh, but, uh, you know, so much more
that we can talk about at 888-564-6173. You can also
send in your questions online. We've got the pastor's perspective
Facebook Messenger or you can DM us on the pastor's
perspective Instagram, or you can scan the QR code if

(01:43):
you're watching us on Facebook.
Facebook, YouTube or Instagram, that'll take you right to the
pastor's perspective page at Kwave.com, where we've got a form
that you can fill out and that gets your question
to us. We usually check those questions before the show starts,
so if you're sending us a question that way right now,
we will not see it till tomorrow. So if you've
got a question for us today, please call in.

(02:05):
At 888-564-6173. And let's get to at least a couple
of the questions that were sent in online. Here is
one from Ron, who asks, how is it possible that
Jesus can learn anything, being that he is God?
And he's referring to Hebrews chapter 5 verses 8 and 9,
which reads in the New King James, Though he was

(02:28):
a son, yet he learned obedience by the things which
he suffered. And having been perfected, he became the author
of eternal salvation to all who obey him. So Char,
how would you answer Ron's question? Yeah, it's a great question.
I think for many of us who are in the
evangelical church or maybe even, you know, Roman Catholic Church,
maybe even Orthodox tradition as well.

(02:50):
Uh, for us, we actually, I think, overemphasize the deity
of Christ and forget his humanity. Uh, and I think
what you find in the Gospels and even in the
early church is actually the opposite, is they're blown away
by the deity of Christ. Like,

(03:12):
You know, oh, look, we touched him, we handled him,
we lived with him, we did everything with him. And
who would have believed that this was actually the incarnate
Son of God. Like, they came to understand Jesus' deity.
They accepted that he was Messiah, but his deity was
something that was realized because of the resurrection from the dead, right? So,
you know, I think sometimes we need to flip the

(03:33):
script a little bit and and understand kind of more
of the perspective of the first century, what was going
on there. And again, I think, um,
Along with that, what is not common for us is
to emphasize Jesus as the human example of what full humanity,

(03:54):
a whole person humanity was always intended to look like
and how Jesus actually accomplishes that for humanity.
So, I mean, even thinking about God's original intention for
Adam and Eve is to set a human being over
all the works of his hands, right? This is celebrated
in Psalm 8. What is humans that you are mindful

(04:14):
of them.
Uh, you know, the Son of Man, that you take
care of him, you have set him over all the
works of your hands, uh, given him glory and honor,
all these things. Lord, oh Lord, how magnificent is your
name and all the earth, right? The psalmist is celebrating
God's intention and purpose for humans, which is to set
them over God's created world. Now, that has been realized

(04:35):
in and through Jesus. He is the perfect human that
accomplishes all that humans were meant to do.
And so I think what the writer of Hebrews is
doing here, which is, you know, we find this in
the Gospels as well, is that Jesus is the perfect
human example for us, along with his deity. But when
we think about Jesus and his humanity, there were things

(04:58):
that not as the Son of God, but as Jesus
of Nazareth, he actually did have to learn. Things that
he had to go through.
endured. And so, Jesus here is being used as an
example of patient suffering. He's being used as an example
of discipleship. He was under the discipleship of the Father,

(05:18):
and look how he fared. Look how well he did.
Jesus is that example to us, and we are to
follow in his footsteps. And we find this language all
throughout the New Testament of forerunner of example, um,
You know, um, other phrases, you know, escape me at
the moment, but this is actually very, um, common language

(05:40):
in the New Testament for Jesus here. So, yes, in Jesus' deity,
it is true that Jesus doesn't have to learn anything,
he doesn't have incomplete knowledge. But as a human being,
we understand, especially from what Paul writes in Philippians 2,
that there were certain things that Jesus put off in
his incarnation.

(06:02):
Uh, so much so that even when Jesus is talking
about the second coming, when he returns, he can say
to the disciples, no one knows the day or the hour,
not even me, the Son of Man knows. But that
has actually, um,
You know, only belongs to the Father Himself. So clearly,
even as Jesus saying there, there are certain things that Jesus,

(06:23):
as the incarnate Son of God, does not know in
his human state. So I think in that same way, right,
there are certain things that in Jesus' human state, he
does have to learn.
The word learn here though is not uh uh it's
not a knowledge thing. It's more experiential though, kind of

(06:43):
going back to the context of what the writer of
of Hebrews is talking about. And again, Jesus is the
patient sufferer, Jesus is the true disciple under the discipline
of the Father, that he is being perfected through this
patient suffering, and he is our example uh to follow.
Mike, anything.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yeah it was a great answer too and I, I
think you're right, um, there's always the danger of imbalance
like two different things can be true, but sometimes we
give more attention or emphasis to one and the other
and you can actually see this just throughout church history
there's kind of.
Ebbs and flows and you know you think of like
sovereignty of God, free will of man, some people like
overemphasize the free will part to the neglect of the

(07:26):
sovereignty of God some people overemphasize sovereignty of God in
such a way that it neglects free will, man and
you know, and scripture seems to hold these things in
tension and it's, I think the same thing with the
both the deity and the humanity of Christ, um, and
it's also a testament to just how.
How powerful Christian history and tradition has been that we
would even ask this question. I mean, it's actually an

(07:48):
interesting question. How could he be when obviously if we
were to put ourselves back in the first century, you know.
Uh, Israel, Greco-Roman world, the question would not be how
could he, how could he be human, it would be
how can he be God, right? Like that's you're the
people encountering Jesus weren't walking around going, oh hey, look,

(08:09):
God's coming, you know, no, they're like Jesus, that's the
son of Mary and Joseph the carpenter, you know, um, oh,
he's the Messiah, but you know, like, like you said,
not until after the, the resurrection.
And afterwards, do you really see, wow, OK, we saw
him fully as human. He was fully human. There was
no question about that. He ate, he ate, he drank,

(08:31):
he slept, and I think learning is a part of
being human. And I think, you know, the, the traditional
orthodox Christian view.
Is that Jesus was both fully human, not even partially,
because sometimes there's the error of thinking, you know, Jesus
was only partially human or appeared to be human, but

(08:51):
he was fully human. So, um, and Hebrews isn't the
only passage. Luke 2:40 says, and the child speaking of
Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and he goes, well,
wait a minute, how, how did he grow? Well, because
he's human, he's fully human. So I think what, what
underlies the question is.
Um, just a deficient view of the person of Christ

(09:13):
that for example, according to the council of Chalcedon, he
is fully God and fully man, two natures, one person,
and I think there's certain passages obviously where we're seeing
the humanity of Jesus highlighted.
When Jesus grew tired, how could God grow tired? We're
seeing his humanity, um, but then we're also, you know,

(09:35):
commanding the wind and the sea. Who is this man
that he could, he has power over creation. I mean,
this is, this is divine, you know. So I think
there's emphasis in different places and, and our, you know,
in the West, uh, we know Jesus is God. This
has been a settled matter.
Um, so we kind of almost begin there and I
know back in the day when we used to hand out, uh, little,

(09:56):
little gospels, guess which one it was? We never handed
out Gospel of Matthew, Gospel of Mark, Gospel, it was
always Gospel of John, which again absolutely love John, but
it starts with the deity of Christ, unlike the synoptics
which begin with the humanity of Christ. So again, I
think your, your point is, uh, right on that we
need balance and Jesus is fully human and therefore he learned.

(10:20):
He grew, he ate, he slept, he got tired, all
of that.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
Ron, thanks for sending in your question online here to
Pastor's Perspective, and I will go to the phones. 888-564-6173
is the number to call if you've got a question
for Pastors Char Broderson or Mike Chaddock. And we're gonna
begin with Melo and Fullerton. Hey, Mello, thanks for calling 888-564-6173.

(10:45):
Hey, how are y'all doing, my brothers in Jesus
Christ, man.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
God bless you guys. God bless you.

Speaker 1 (10:49):
So my question is, I had a discussion
with a friend of mine. We've been talking about the
Bible for 2 to 32 to 3 months, and you know,
we'd have like, hey, hallelujah. Thank you, Jesus. Thank you,
Holy Spirit. And then he busts out with this question.
It's like he statements like, hey, you know, the rosary
may not be in the Bible, but the Bible is
in the rosary. And I looked at him like, what? OK,

(11:10):
how do I answer that?
Did you ask what he meant by that? That's where
I'd start. I basically looked at him and said like,
I can't have this discussion right now because I have
family things right now, and this is gonna take me
too long for, for me to, to get in the debate.
But after that, I haven't talked to him for about
2 or 3 months already. So until, until I called
you guys. OK, yeah, I mean, from my limited understanding,

(11:33):
the rosary, right, you, um, you've got your prayer beads
on it, but then you come to the Hail Mary's
on it. Is that correct?
Yeah, right, so, so the in-betweens you're praying our Father.
There's 10 Hail Marys and then the Our Father, is
that what it is? Yes, OK, yeah, so I, I
imagine that that's what he's referring to then, right? So

(11:55):
our Father, right, comes from Matthew chapter 6, yes, also
in Luke 7, Luke 11, um.
So, right, so I, I think that this is probably
his reference that the rosary contains the word of God, right,
or the Bible, because it includes the Our Father. So
I can only imagine that that's the reference there. And

(12:16):
to me that just feels like a little clever, like, hey,
but I don't know if there's anything to it at
the same time. It's like, it's like I got you, huh? Yeah, totally.
You're like, OK, so.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah, I mean, it's obviously, yes, there's, there's some Bible
in it, but it goes beyond that. I, I think obviously,
and that's where, I mean.
As, as a, a Protestant in the sense that I
hold scripture to be the only infallible authority, and obviously
this is a big, long-standing debate between Protestants and Catholics

(12:49):
where they will hold tradition.
To the same level functionally whether they say this in
theory or not functionally, the tradition um that is extra
biblical may or may not be anti-biblical, which is always
a question we have to ask, certainly extra biblical, um,
some of those elements, uh, going back to the Bible
being a Berean.

(13:10):
Uh, Acts 17, uh, the Bereans were more excellent than
most because even when the apostle Paul spoke they went
back to scripture to make sure what Paul said lined up.
So I mean how much more and, and to be honest,
as much as, and I respect, uh, and appreciate the
church fathers and all of that, but, um.
If Paul could commend, he wasn't offended when the Parens

(13:34):
are like, hey, this, this sounds good, but we're gonna
go back and check. Uh, Paul was not offended. Rather,
he did the opposite. He commended them. Um, so how
much more with people who were not apostles. They were
not the 12 apostles. They were not writing scripture. They
were not inspired by the Holy Spirit, specially chosen by
the risen Christ in the same way that, you know,
whatever you want to say, apostolic succession, etc. etc. OK,

(13:56):
that's still after the fact.
So we have to judge that by scripture and I
would say I do think there's elements in the rosary
that that certainly aren't biblical and then there's the matter
of is it anti-biblical and I think you know there's
probably some room for debate there some Protestants would probably be.
OK with it, uh, and then others would certainly reject it,

(14:20):
saying there is no biblical warrant for this. This is
beyond the bounds of scripture.

Speaker 1 (14:24):
It's interesting. I know that Pope, the current Pope, Pope Leo,
he just came out, uh, and stated that Mary is
not co-redemptive, which is really powerful too, you know, because
that's one of those things that, you know.
I think, at least, you know, as long as I've
lived that I've just like, hey, by the way, here's

(14:44):
where we differ with Catholics. Here's some of this murky stuff,
you know, where we, you know, so it was really
encouraging to hear him come out and, and just give
that clarity. Um, I also, Mike, what you were saying
just about like.
OK, so we've got the, the rosary, right? It's got
the Our Fathers, but then it has the, the Hail
Marys on it, and you know, so we're bringing it

(15:05):
back to Scripture. What does Scripture tell us? Well, Scripture
tells us clearly that because of what Christ has done,
we have access directly to the Father. And so yes,
we do pray in Jesus's name because he is our
access to the Father, but
We don't need a go-between, right? Like there's no longer
a need for priests and seers and prophets or even,

(15:30):
you know, the family of Jesus Messiah to get us in.
We have that acceptance with the Father through what Jesus
has done. And so,
You know, why do we need to go to the
mother of Jesus when we can go directly to the
Father who was sent, right, who sent Jesus into the
world to do exactly this, to bring us back to
the Father. And so I think, why would I, you know,

(15:51):
lower the bar when Jesus has already raised it so
high for us? Do you think part of it might
have to do with, well, if, if we get in
with his mom, he might because then she can go
and talk. It sounds very Italian to me.
Which is, you know, like, when I think about it,
I'm like, oh yeah, like it's very practical. Yes, this
is how it works in the world and these things like,
oh yeah, just talk to his mom, she'll get you in.
You're like, oh, I guess that makes sense from a,

(16:14):
you know, person to
person,

Speaker 2 (16:15):
and, and in a way you could say it almost
sounds humble, right, because you're like, oh, who am I
to go directly to God or whatever, and that, and
that's true. Who, who, who are you? But the idea of, OK, well,
we'll set up.
Other intercessors and advocates, etc. when the glory of the
gospel is that God has torn the veil in the
temple that separates man and that and going back to

(16:38):
the earlier uh question about Jesus' humanity because he is
fully human, he.
Fully represents us because he is fully God. He fully
represents God in the new covenant, and this is part
of the glory of the, the two natures of Christ
and the one person is we have direct access to
God through Jesus. And so I'd say, you know, the

(16:59):
hail holy Queen part of, of the rosary is problematic.
For example, you know, hail holy queen, mother of mercy,
skip a few lines. Turn then most gracious advocate, thine
eyes of mercy, I mean.
That Jesus is our advocate. He is our high priest,
and the apostle Paul in First Timothy says it's explicitly,

(17:21):
and this is not later tradition, this is the apostle,
there is only one mediator between God and man, the
man Christ Jesus, only one. So to add to that
is to go against the apostolic tradition.
And, and again, I, I think, you know, sometimes Protestants

(17:43):
have
I think, um, maybe.
Too much of kind of a, an anti-Catholic bias that
where we can be harsh. And while I still think
we have to critique error regardless, you gotta remember most,
you know, for, for the first few centuries, there weren't
Bibles around. You had the living apostles, you had their emissaries,

(18:07):
you had, you know, as time goes on, the written documents,
but even once, you know, all the New Testament is written,
it hasn't been compiled into a codex that happened centuries later.
So you can see why.
Oral tradition was important. It didn't make it infallible or
anything like that, but it's sort of like, like if
I want to be charitable, charitable as a Protestant, I
feel like they did the best they could with what

(18:29):
they had. And obviously, you know, some of the critiques
of the Bible, you know, oh, it's like the telephone game. Well, no, actually,
what's great about a written text is you rule out
the errors of, oh, stuff got added and taken away
as the message got passed on. However, you don't have
that check and balance.
With just oral tradition, which comes down to us. So

(18:50):
I'd say that's certainly an area that is not biblical,
that is not Bible. I would even say that right
there is anti-biblical. You cannot square praying to Mary is
our advocate when Paul says Christ alone is our advocate.
There is not another, even, even, you know, totally respect

(19:11):
and appreciate Mary as, uh, you know, and a lot
of Protestants had, I think things changed over the.
The centuries, but like, you know, Luther and Calvin, I mean, they,
they actually very much revered Mary. They didn't exalt her
to the level of advocate and all of that. And
I think,
Because of some of the language like you were mentioning
char co-redempt drinks and stuff that actually caused a greater

(19:34):
lash backlash by Protestants against Mary and that's unfortunate because
obviously she is a figure, uh, to be respected. She's
a model of faith and all that, but she is
not our advocate. She is not our co-redemptrics.

Speaker 1 (19:47):
It's really interesting. I just, um, I took a staycation
last week and I
Um, made it to a book that I've been meaning
to read for some time. It's called, uh, Nobody's Mother.
It's written by Sandra Gland, and it's on Artemis of
the Ephesians. And one of the things that she highlights, um,
So she kind of goes and looks at like all
the Greco-Roman references to Artemis, you know, just in literature

(20:10):
as a whole, and um points out that actually Artemis
is 2nd in the pantheon of the Olympian gods. So basically,
Zeus obviously is the chief god, but in terms of
worship and reverence, Artemis holds 2nd place to Zeus. And
of course, we know that the shrine of Artemis or

(20:30):
Diana was in Ephesus. And so,
Uh, she's making all of these connections, just to even
the language that Paul will use in his epistle, uh,
to the Ephesians, but also in his letters to Timothy, uh,
also to Titus because there was a connection between those two,
churches there. Um, but he is countering
Um, things about the Artemis myth with the gospel. And

(20:56):
even in his greetings in these letters, in all of
his other letters, it is always God the Father and
the Lord Jesus Christ. But in Timothy, Titus and the
letter to the Ephesians, he refers to Christ as savior,
because Artemis was a savior. And particularly she is a
chaste virgin.

(21:16):
And so, she's a chase version of midwifery, who will
carry you through childbearing either safely or she will euthanize
you with her arrows. I mean, this stuff is wild,
just making all the connections of the ways that Paul's
talking about. But I bring all this up because one
of the first, uh, Christian, um, churches was raised on

(21:38):
the grounds where Artemis's temple was to the Virgin Mary.
And they talk about how they simply switched one virgin
worship for another.
And so even just the ideas of the co-redemptious redemptious, uh,
the savior complex with Mary, the virgin cult, all of

(21:58):
that stuff probably has deeper connections to what was going
on with Artemis worship. And so by the time, um,
Constantine's mother came around and, and set up these, you know, uh,
places of worship. There was already some of this kind
of creeping in like, oh, we'll trade one virgin, you know,
for the virgin mother, and, you know, this kind of connection. Anyway,

(22:19):
just fascinating book. It's like 150 pages. It was so
fun to read, man. wow.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
Well, you know, and I think the thing too is, and,
and I've seen this online a lot where people from
the Catholic tradition or Orthodox, oh well, our.
Beliefs go back a long time, but going being old
doesn't make it right. Like that's again, it doesn't make
it wrong, but it doesn't make it right just because
it's old. Yeah, so again, we always go back to scripture,
and I think what you're pointing out is remember, even the,

(22:50):
the church fathers, they had a cultural context and for
many of them that included pagan beliefs in their background, um,
and I, I don't think that means we have to
be suspicious and suspecting.
You know, pagan belief around every corner, but I also
think it would be naive to think, uh, none of
that is there, you know, like I think, like I, I,

(23:11):
I think Augustine is great. I love Augustine, but I
think very clearly he's still in his anthropology influenced.
Um, by manicheeism and dualism, you know, the, the emphasis
on the, the real you is the disembodied soul or spirit,
and because that's, that's the background of the manichees, right?
Like the body is a prison house of the soul

(23:32):
and salvation is escaping that, and you can kind of
even see this carry through into the Middle Ages when.
You know, the sort of the picture of the gospel
you see in cathedrals, the end of everything is disembodied
existence in heaven, which is not how the Bible ends, right?
It ends resurrection, bodily resurrection, but, but that makes sense
within a worldview where the body's value and part of

(23:55):
your personhood and identity has been.
Diminished. So again that's, that's not a knock on him
per se. He's, you know, I think he was incredibly
sanctified in, in many other thoughts in other ways. And,
and what I love about like the church fathers, you know,
when they get it right, they say it so well.
Like it's just so brilliant. But then sometimes the same
brilliant amazing person just says the most obvious unbiblical thing

(24:18):
and you're like what in the world? And I think
to your point, like with the Artemis back because this is.
This is everywhere. This is what is ingrained in many
of them from, from childhood, and it, and sometimes it
is tough to get away from.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
Mello, thanks for your question today here on Pastor's Perspective.
888-564-6173 is the number to call for the next half hour.
Here is Daniel who's listening to us on the Kwave
app in Riverside. Hey there, Daniel, thanks for calling in today.
Hey, thank you, thank you for answering my call. I'm
a longtime listener, first time caller. What took you so
long to call in, Daniel?

(24:52):
I'm joking. No, I know. Anyway, so, so all my
questions that I have when I wanna call because somehow
or another they're answered through other, other callers. That does happen, but.
Yes, it does. Today I'm calling because my, my fiance
just lost her, her son to a motorcycle accident and
she's devastated. She was 36 years old and she just

(25:14):
doesn't understand, you know, why it happened to him. You know,
he had a life ahead of him and he wasn't,
she wasn't able to see his body until about a
month after the accident and so she wants, she just
wants to know what happens after death because she's a Catholic.
And many people tell her that she has to pray

(25:36):
the rosary 9 times for 9 consecutive days.
Others tell her that.
Crime is not.
A good thing to do because she's not letting him
advance or see the light, follow the light.
So I just really want her to understand what happens
after that.

(25:56):
All right, Char or Mike. I looked at Mike and
I said

Speaker 2 (25:59):
Char. You did. You confused me there, Brian. Um, first
of all, Daniel, I'm so sorry to hear that. That's,
I mean, unbelievable tragedy, and I don't think there's any answer, right, that.
Would make it fine it just there there isn't that's
a part of the reality of, of death and loss
here in this world. But of course the good news

(26:20):
of Christianity is that God has done something about death.
I think sometimes once again Char, I think like we're
so familiar with Christianity we don't think how radical this
is and sometimes it takes somebody from a completely different
perspective to highlight this and um there's a book called
The Denial of Death by an atheist, uh, philosopher his
name is.

(26:41):
Escaping or Ernest Becker, um, and so again, keep in
mind he, he's an atheist, but one of his things
is he, he feels that so much of Western culture
is designed to deny death. We pretend we're not gonna die, even,
even the medicalization and the dying, we're in denial the
whole time, you know, um, but he said, and he's
not a fan of religion.
The one religion he says he respects is Christianity for

(27:06):
the reason that it not only does not deny death,
it faces it head on.
The center of the gospel is that not only has
God forgiven our sins through Christ by grace through faith,
but God has dealt a death blow to death itself
that in Jesus Christ his life, death, and resurrection, those

(27:29):
who believe and trust in Him are promised eternal life
as well, and the New Testament sort of fleshes this out,
maybe not in all the details that we want, but
we know the apostle Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:8.
To be absent from the body is to be present
with the Lord. Paul doesn't qualify that by saying there's

(27:49):
the potential of being absent from body and present with
the Lord, but first, those living must do X, Y,
and Z.
Paul states this as a matter of fact. Those who
believe in Christ, when they die, their soul, their spirit
goes directly to be in the presence of the Lord.
Paul writes this about, um, to the Thessalonians and 1

(28:11):
Thessalonians chapter 4, and this might be something good to read. They,
they have a little bit of a different.
Uh, particular situation that they're struggling with, but the basic
idea is the same. They're struggling with the death of
those in their community, and these were unexpected deaths again
for different reasons. Like you mentioned, your fiance's, I mean,
36 years old. That's unexpected because of the age. That's

(28:34):
not normal. You don't expect that. Uh, for the Thessalonians,
they had a little bit of doctrinal confusion. They felt
that the second coming of Christ was gonna come in
all of their lifetimes and nobody was gonna die.
So they were scared. Are our loved ones lost? Will
they not benefit from the Pausia that is the return

(28:55):
of Christ? And Paul writes to them, not at all,
that they go directly to be with the Lord, and
we one day will be reunited with them and not
just disembodied spirits, but in the resurrection, glorified resurrected bodies.
So that's the glorious hope of the gospel, not only
the forgiveness of sins, but life after life after death.

Speaker 1 (29:19):
Daniel, thanks for calling in today with your question here
on Pastor's Perspective. It's time for us to go to break,
so we'll be back with more of your questions in
just a few minutes. Call in. The guys are here
until 4 o'clock at 888-564-6173. The guys being Pastors Char
Broderson and Mike Chaddock. Again, 888-564-6173. Zelly, you will be

(29:40):
first up when we come back from the break, so
stay right where you are and everyone else will talk
to you as well at 888-564-6173.

(30:20):
We are back on Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number
to call. My name is Brian Perez. I'm here in
the studio with Pastors Char Broderson and Mike Chaddock. Char
is the pastor of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. Mike pastors
Image Church in San Juan Capistrano. Zelly, we're gonna go
to you in a moment, but first we've got some

(30:40):
unfinished business with Daniel that Char wanted to bring up. Yeah, Daniel,
I just wanted to just chime in for a moment
and
I think one of the best passages to go to,
to just kind of look at, you know, how do
we grieve as Christians is Jesus Himself. And I think
about John chapter 11 where, right, Jesus comes to the
tomb of Lazarus, and even in this, like we see

(31:02):
how Jesus meets each individual kind of in their need,
like the way that Jesus ministers to Martha.
who is very practical. Like you should have been here,
why weren't you, right? She's kind of doing the blame
game of whose fault it is. And Jesus directs her
to the hope of resurrection. And yet when Jesus meets Mary,
he meets her in her grief, right? She is overcome.

(31:25):
By grief and tears. And then in that moment, right, Jesus,
he asked to be led to the tomb of Lazarus.
He looks around at the Jews, he looks at Mary,
and it says that Jesus weeps. And then there's this
really strange language that's used actually for Jesus, he's snorting
like a horse that's about to race. And this in

(31:47):
the the original language is used like of, of anger, uh,
and like almost rage at something.
And so the question is, what, what in the world,
who is Jesus raging at, right? Is he raging at
God like we often do? Oh, God, you took my mother,
you took my father, you took my child, it's your fault. Well, no, no,
Jesus is God in human flesh. We know he's not

(32:09):
raging at God. So who's he raging at?
And so the best answers we come at is that
Jesus is raging at death. And that most likely as
the true human there and God in the flesh, he
is raging at something that was never meant to be,
the separation of body and soul, the separation.
of the human family and that breakdown, right? That he's

(32:32):
raging at something that was never meant to be, and
he has come to do something about it. And so
I think Jesus is probably, of course, let me finish
the story. Moments later, Jesus will command Lazarus to come
forth from the grave. And of course, he comes out, right,
and he is whole.
And so here Jesus is, right? He knows that he
has the power and the ability to raise Lazarus from

(32:53):
the dead, but he doesn't push Mary and Martha on
to that, like, oh, don't cry, you know, don't, don't
be sad. Like, there's no reason for this. I'm here,
I'm going to take care of it. He doesn't do
any of that. Uh, he meets them in their moment.
He brings uh solidarity, he brings words of comfort and encouragement.

(33:14):
And so I just think that Jesus is a beautiful
example here of how Christians are to grieve and to
help others grieve. How we are simply just to meet
people in their moment of grief and just
Surround them with sometimes just physical presence. We call this
a ministry of presence, right? It doesn't really involve saying anything.

(33:35):
You can't bring somebody back. There's no real words in
those moments. Sometimes even I would say scripture falls on
deaf ears, even in those moments. It's just not the
right time. And so the right thing is, you know,
maybe
Affection. It is presence, it's physical support of help, right?
I'm gonna go get a meal, I'm gonna make sure

(33:56):
you eat, I'm gonna make sure that these things are
taken care of, so that you can just sit in
this moment. And, and so I think, unfortunately, uh, like
Mike mentioned, you know, we in the West are very
uncomfortable with mortality and death. And I think Christians, we
need to push against that because we do have hope
in the resurrection through Jesus Christ.

(34:18):
Uh, and so we need to allow people to grieve, um,
in the way that scripture, you know, has allowed us
to grieve and to, you know, to really use these
opportunities to process these things. So, I think John chapter 11,
that story has brought so much comfort, um, to me
in my life and as I've, um,
Attempted to comfort others who are grieving. So I highly

(34:41):
recommend that. I also just as a practical note, I
think
Um, the loss of this young man. Um, there is
a ministry that we, um, have at Calvary Costa Mesa,
and I'm looking on the website right now, but many
churches in this area, and I think also Riverside have
it as well. It's called Grief Share and could just
be a great way, uh, for your, um, fiance just

(35:03):
to have some practical support.
of other people who have walked through what she's walking
through and can just come alongside her and just be
good listeners and good support as she processes this um
just unfortunate untimely death. So

Speaker 2 (35:18):
and that's biblical too. 2 Corinthians Paul says one of
the reasons we suffer and go through things is so
we can comfort others with the comfort we've received. And
so I, I think one of the purpose because people,
I think one thing.
Sometimes, obviously we ask the question why, but then we
also ask the question, what for? Like how could anything
good come out of this. But one of the things

(35:40):
Paul says is one of the things we, we can
always know with whatever pain, suffering, loss we experience, he
can use our pain to connect with the pain of
others in a way that is so incredibly powerful. And
I mean, I know this personally, um, I've seen it
in so many people's, even as a pastor, some people
come to me for, you know, oh, you know.

(36:01):
I went through this thing, but I've never been through
that thing, and I can give them scripture, and so,
you know, sometimes that's can be, I think it's good, obviously, but, uh, sometimes,
as you said, Jar, like sometimes it just kind of
falls on deaf ear. They're not hearing it, but when
I connect them with another person who's literally been in
their shoes, they're, because I think part of the, part
of the pain and grief is you feel alone who, who, well,

(36:22):
I alone suffer in this way and, and to be
reminded we're not alone in the world, even in our
pain is important.
And I think even grief can be offered to God
in worship, which is, I think what the Psalms teach
us through lament. The fact that many of these psalms,
and again, they don't fit the normal pattern of contemporary worship, uh,
but many of these songs are crying out to God,

(36:43):
even asking why God? How long, oh Lord, will you
let me drown in my tears, and I'm, I'm awake
all night. All, all I'm eating are tears, Lord, that's
my diet is my own tears and.
I, I think we sometimes think that, that, you know,
our grief is prohibitive of worship, but the Psalms remind
us that's actually the, the opposite is true. If we
will take our grief, even our, our questions, our doubts,

(37:05):
even our frustrations, because there's frustration in the Psalms, uh, with,
with God, why, why aren't you acting God? Why aren't
you doing this?
And I think sometimes we feel like it's not pious
to voice it, but the truth is you think it,
whether it's right or not, you do think it that's
where you're at, and the, the, uh, right thing to
do is be authentic with God to share that, that
grief to God in prayer and even and even song.

(37:27):
So I think grief itself can be redeemable as an
act of worship when it is given to God.

Speaker 1 (37:33):
All right, Daniel, thanks for your phone call today on
Pastor's perspective. And if you guys wanna learn more about
the grief share group at Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, you
can check out CCCM.com/grief. And, uh, like Charles said though,
the grief share groups are all over the place, but, uh,
if you wanna check out the one here at Calvary
Costa Mesa, CCCM.com.
Slash grief. 888-564-6173 is our number and now we're gonna

(37:57):
go to Green Bay, Virginia and uh speak with Zelly
who is listening on the K-Wave app. First of all, Zelly,
thank you for downloading the app and thanks for calling
in today.
Hi, hello.
How are you? Um, Mike, good. What's your doing well,

(38:18):
thank you. Better now that you've called in. What's your question?
My question is, um, so my friend said that Jesus
was born in September, but I say it's, he was
born in December, so yep.
Yeah, that's a great question. And actually, you know what's interesting,

(38:38):
there's actually a lot of debate and different ideas around this.
So in our tradition,
Um, we celebrate Jesus' birth intentionally, uh, during this season
of Advent. And it's because it's this idea that when the,
in the Western Hemisphere, right, which is in

(39:00):
The top half of the globe. This is the time
of year where the days grow dark, right? We have
our shortest day of the year, and it's dark and
it's dismal, and sometimes it's depressing. And so in the
middle of this season, we have this moment of light
and hope, right? The scriptures say that the people who
sat in darkness have seen a great light.

(39:23):
And many Christians throughout centuries have seen that this time
of year is a time to remember the hope that
we have that Jesus brought into the world. And so,
with tradition,
The church has celebrated the birth of Jesus on December 25th,
but we actually don't know the exact date of Jesus' birth.

(39:44):
And many have actually speculated that Jesus' birth probably did
happen in the warmer months of the year, uh, in Palestine.
There's a few reasons for this. The shepherds are watching
their sheep in the fields at night. During the winter months,
especially in Judea, it's actually very cold in Bethlehem. It's um,
Uh, the elevation is actually very high, and it snows

(40:06):
in that region and also in Jerusalem. And so shepherds
probably would not have their sheep in open fields at
this time of year. Um, and so it's most likely
that it is the warmer months. There's also, Zoe, this
is probably above your head, so I'm sorry, but there
was a book written a few years ago by a
guy named Victor Paul, uh, Verwheel.

(40:29):
And he talks about, um, the, the book's called Jesus
Christ Our Promise Seed. And he's the one that popularized
this idea that Jesus was born on September 11th in
3 AD. And he actually looks at the patterns of
uh the sun and eclipses and these things with the moon,
and he traces that

(40:50):
Uh, uh, there's a verse in Revelation that he believes
is actually this interpretive verse that aligns the moon, the sun,
and the stars altogether. And he thinks that that's, uh,
that happened on September 11th, 3 AD, and this was
the day that Jesus was born. So, that's where that
idea comes from, which is really random, but.

(41:10):
Interesting, but actually, you know, the truth is nobody.
Totally knows, right?

Speaker 2 (41:17):
Yeah, we don't know for sure, and it's important to
point out for people too, because I think some well-meaning
people when they get into debate of when it was,
it's because they, they want to get things right. We
want to make sure we're not worshiping on the wrong day. Um,
number one, it's important to point out the New Testament
does not command us to celebrate.
Jesus' birthday. It's actually not a command. This is, this
is a tradition. I don't think it's wrong. It's extra biblical.

(41:40):
It's not there. For example, compare this to the Old
Testament where you do have many feasts that you are
command Israel was commanded to celebrate on a certain day.
Uh, in a certain way we don't have that in
the New Testament, so we're, I think we're free to
do this. I also tell people this has been usually
I don't come across this often, but I have come

(42:01):
across some, uh, adults who had visited our church and, uh,
they wanted to know, uh, if we were a church
that celebrates Christmas, and when I said yes, they're like, OK,
we're gonna go somewhere else because we, because the New
Testament doesn't command that. And I said, where does it
command you can't.
And then of course they, they look like a deer
in a headlight, but, um, so I would keep in
mind it's not a matter of like, oh we're getting

(42:23):
it right, getting it wrong, this is a grave sin,
we're not commanded to do it, um, so if we're
gonna do it, I just think we should be intentional
about it. Let's make sure Christmas isn't just about.
Human traditions and getting gifts and being greedy and mean
to people in the parking lot at the mall and
all that kind of stuff, this should really be about
focusing on Christ and what God did for us with
Jesus coming into the world and on the side as

(42:46):
far as the date, as far as December 25th, there
is strong tradition dating back to the 2nd and 3rd
centuries that the church fathers did believe that Jesus was
born on December 25th, and they actually had various reasons they.
They calculated that again as, as Char said, whether it's
correct or not, we don't know, but they're just, if
it makes anybody feel any better, there are, there is

(43:07):
a legitimate tradition and there's reasons behind it that goes back, uh,
to the early centuries of the church that does see
it as being December 25th.

Speaker 1 (43:16):
Char, you said something a few minutes ago that, um,
that the reason they think it was in the winter
is because of the, the, the darkness, how everything is
dark and dismal traditionally, yes, that's why, right. So and
I find it interesting too because right now for the
last few weeks we've all been complaining about, oh, it
gets so dark, it gets dark so early now and everything,

(43:38):
and yeah, let's look to the hope of Christ. Yeah,
it is powerful to like, yeah, just think about especially
right like.
With modern technology, all right, our cities are lit and
you know, like we have lights we can turn on
at any time, you know, but you think about like
Like a whole world just immersed in darkness, those darkest
times of the year, those things, like how powerful it
would be to turn like in, you know, to open

(44:01):
up the scroll and to read this, you know, from
the prophet Isaiah, you know, the people sitting in darkness
have seen a marvelous light and upon those, you know,
in the land of darkness, you know, a light has dawned. Like,
here it is, the hope of, you know, the good
news is coming into the world is just, um,
Yeah, it's so powerful.

(44:22):
So Zelly, what are you gonna tell your friend?
Um, I think that I'm probably gonna say that we
were both right and
Yeah, yeah,
I think that's right. There's good evidence on both sides.

(44:44):
So who knows? So she's just going to be the
adult at 11 years old and, uh, just say, you
know what, we can agree to disagree on this.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
You might be right. I might be right. Let's just
make sure we make it all about Jesus.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
Amen. Zelly. Thank you for calling in today on Pastor's Perspective.
Great hearing from you. Now we'll go to Kirk in
Fullerton who's watching us on YouTube, so we've got a
wave to Kirk. What's up, Kirk? How can we help you?
Uh, yes, first of all, thank you guys for answering
our questions. I really appreciate it. I've been listening for years.
But recently I've been watching a lot of the Orthodox

(45:20):
Church and the way they celebrate and some of the
different big differences from Protest Protestants.
Um, and the big one because they, they always say
it is probably the biggest is the Eucharist.
And they always say, because they say that the Orthodox
Church goes all the way back to the apostles, kind

(45:43):
of like the Catholic Church too, but they claim that
the early church fathers like John Christostom and many others,
that they all believed that it was literally that when
the priest would bless it, that it was actually the
flesh and the blood of Jesus.

(46:03):
So I just wanna ask you guys because you, you
know the word of God and of course they always
use a lot of the church fathers, fathers, and I
think I heard Mike say earlier that that doesn't necessarily
make them always right or wrong. um, what would you
guys say to that because I'm sure you've probably studied

(46:23):
like Eastern Orthodox and how they really celebrate the Eucharist
and so what are your thoughts on that? Yeah.
You know, it's interesting, Kirk. Years ago I read a book, uh,
by a man named Alexander Shiman, Schmeman, and he is
probably the leading theologian of the Orthodox Church and one

(46:43):
that is referenced more than any other, but he wrote
a book called For the Life of the World, and
it was one of the most powerful books I've ever
read in my life on what, um, the table of
the Lord, the Eucharist communion really is all about, and
it changed my life, to be honest.
Um, just Christ's gift of Himself so that we might live.

(47:05):
And so that, you know, I actually, I think as
a Protestant who get, you know, probably our, our own tradition, uh,
could be summarized by its remembrance and remembrance alone in
our tradition, um, was corrected. I, and I actually believe
in real presence. Now, I don't believe in transubstantiation, but

(47:27):
I do believe.
that Christ is present when the church gathers at his
table to offer us grace, forgiveness, reconciliation, recalibrating, you know, and,
and I was actually really convinced as I read John's Gospel,
when Jesus actually, I believe,
gives his, um, if I could say, Last Supper sermon

(47:50):
there in John chapter 6. Unless you eat my flesh
and drink my blood, you have no life, uh, in you.
But whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides
in me and I in them. And it, those words,
it's an invitation to make our home in Jesus Messiah,

(48:11):
and for him to make his home in us. It
is this invitation.
To fellowship with God. And I was just blown away like,
oh my gosh, each week, we are invited to this
table to recalibrate, to come home to Jesus, to come
home to, you know, life in the Father, in the Son,
and in the Spirit, and then of course, to invite

(48:33):
them again, just, you know, not that it needs like
um
salvation happening again, but this recalibration, like, oh, yeah, abiding,
being at home, being settled into. And so, I, I
really was convinced through Alexander Schmeman and John chapter 6,
just reading that on my own, man, like,
I need to make this the emphasis of our Sunday

(48:57):
morning gathering. And so we actually have transitioned at um
the church I pastored up north, church I'm pastoring now
to make our gathering together culminate at the Lord's table. Yeah,
as an invitation to make our home in Christ, to
come home, uh, to abide in Him by eating His flesh,
by drinking His blood, and so.

(49:19):
Um, yeah, you know, I have really come to believe,
as I said, not just in this is an act
of remembrance, but this is, uh, an act of real
presence where we meet with Jesus at his table. So,
I think that we have a lot to learn from
both our Orthodox brothers and sisters and our Roman Catholic
brothers and sisters.
And I think they have a lot to learn from us,

(49:40):
and I think that we need to dialogue more about
these things. And so, I think they get things wrong,
and I think we also get things wrong, and I
think it's really great for us, of course, to dialogue
with one another and ultimately go back to scripture as
our authority and source of these things. So, that's what
I'll say about it, Mike.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
Yeah, I think
It's interesting that I do think there's room for criticism
of some Protestant traditions, not all, uh, some Protestant traditions
where it's been, you know, the Eucharist, um, which is
just another name for the Lord's Supper, communion, by the way,
Eucharist means Thanksgiving. Some people think it's a somber, horrible

(50:20):
thing or whatever, like, oh gosh, I gotta beat myself up, and,
you know, uh, uh, think about it, the word means Thanksgiving.
This is, this is a good thing. This is, you know,
a joyous.
Uh, thing as well, um.
You know, I do think some have marginalized it. It's,
you know, it's not done, uh, often. It's infrequent. It's
just kind of like this side thing. And the more

(50:41):
I studied church history, and by the way, not just
Orthodox or, or Catholic, um, but even actually the reformers,
the magisterial reformers of the 16th century, they all had
a higher view, all of them, uh, the, you know,
Zwingli is sort of the one that first kind of really.
Popularizes what's called the memorial view and obviously we know
at minimum he's right, right, this due in remembrance of me, um,

(51:06):
so obviously we can all draw a line there at
the bottom where OK it's at least this, it's at
least something we are to do in remembrance of, of Jesus, um,
but the question of course is, is it more than that?
And I would say pretty much across the board, um,
though they, I would actually, you know, from my knowledge
of the Apostolic Fathers, Church fathers, uh, nobody believed in

(51:29):
transubstantiation really until the Middle Ages. Uh, Thomas Aquinas is
really the one taking Aristotelian.
Philosophy and the difference between substance and accidents and he
sort of explains how uh bread could undergo a miraculous
change and become the flesh of Christ while simultaneously the
double miracle of it remaining bread is so that was

(51:51):
an that was actually an innovation. I would say the,
the basic, uh, message of the church prior to that
was what's what Char referred to as real presence and
what I think is helpful.
About that term is it was fairly mysterious. Uh, a
lot of people believed there was something more happening than
merely remembrance, but they were reluctant to describe it or

(52:17):
say exactly what happened or they wanted to leave a
little mystery there, and I, I feel a little bit more.
Comfortable with that, you know, um, Luther was very close
to the Catholic view. I mean, almost indistinguishable. His view
was consubstantiation. Uh, Calvin, interestingly, not only believed that the
Eucharist should be cele celebrated every week, he believed it

(52:39):
needed to be every, he believed in real presence as well.
He believed that Christ is spiritually presence in the ailment,
not physically, but that.
There is a real mediation of grace, and Protestants use
this term, means of grace. You know, it's not that
the thing is, you know, miraculously the flesh and blood
of Christ, but God has chosen. He has elected, he

(52:59):
has decided that when his people respond in faith to
his divinely appointed means, he's gonna meet them with grace.
That was more, and, and I thought that was a
helpful as a, as a Protestant. I want to stay within.
The bounds of scripture, good sound exegesis, um, but also
be open to critiquing, I think, some of the popular
evangelicalism that, that I think honestly doesn't esteem the place

(53:22):
of the Eucharist quite the way
it should,

Speaker 1 (53:24):
and I do think, yeah, I mean, because, you know,
coming back to your point, Kirk, there are, uh, many
young men who are actually converting to orthodoxy, uh, the
Orthodox Church, um.
Out of the, the Protestant Evangelical Church. And I, and
one of the reasons it is cited is because of
the Eucharist. And I think to Mike's point, I think

(53:46):
just in their celebration of, uh, the gift of Christ's
body and life for the life of the world, it
really does outdo what we've done. We've, we really have
made this, you know, a moment where we all feel
bad about ourselves, right? And like,
Almost kind of like the only reason you need communion
is because you really screwed up super bad. And so

(54:07):
you got to make it right by, you know, reapplying,
you know, the broken body and the shed blood of Jesus.
But I think that reminder that, man, no, this is celebration,
that this is
Um, thanksgiving and praise and and wonder and amazement that
God loved us in this way, and that we respond
to Him by loving Him in return, that we respond

(54:27):
to Him, you know, by coming in faith to receive grace,
I think, is right. And so again, you know, I
think this is one of those areas, like I was mentioning,
where we can really be challenged by orthodox brothers and
sisters to kind of re up our game, if you will.
Of what the Lord's table really is all about and
kind of recalibrating back to what scripture is telling us

(54:50):
to do in remembrance of Jesus.

Speaker 2 (54:52):
Yeah, you know, and what's sort of unfortunate is the
Lord's table is to be a place of oneness where
the body of Christ is one, and yet it's been
one of the most divisive things. And I, I think what's, uh,
one thing that stood out to me studying the various views.
Is if you get into the details of what every
tradition thinks and you go back to the New Testament,
the New Testament is surprisingly simple about what it is

(55:16):
and in 1 Corinthians when it speaks of not discerning
the Lord's body, it's not getting into meta metaphysics and
what's happening, it's how we're treating our brothers and sisters
in Christ. Are we loving the body of Christ as
one when we're celebrating communion? That is what Paul was
concerned about.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
Kirk, thanks for your phone call today on Pastor's Perspective,
and that's all the time we have on today's episode,
which will soon be archived on Facebook, YouTube, Apple Podcasts,
or Spotify if you want to watch or listen to
it again. And we will be back again tomorrow between
3 and 4 in the afternoon to answer the questions
you've got, so call then. For Char Broderson and Mike Chaddock,
I'm Brian Perez. Thanks for watching and listening to Pastor's Perspective.