December 8, 2025 • 56 mins
Pastors' Perspective is a one-hour call-in program where listeners can call in and get answers to questions about the Bible, Christianity, family, and life. The program is live Monday through Friday from 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM Pacific. You can call 888-564-6173 to ask your questions.
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Speaker 1 (00:17):
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez.
It is Monday, December 8th, and we are here in
the studio until 4 o'clock to answer the questions you
have about the Bible, the Christian faith, just about anything
that's on your mind, we can talk about it. Maybe
you read something in your Bible this morning or in
a devotional.
And you're like, wait, what does this mean? I don't understand.
(00:39):
Call in, the number is 888-564-6173. We've got Char Broderson,
the lead pastor of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa here in
the studio, and Justin Thomas, the president of the Calvary
Chapel Bible College in Bradenton, Florida, joining us online. How
you doing, gentlemen? Doing well. Good. Yeah, how are you, Brian?
Doing well, thank you. Justin, how are you?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I also am doing well. That's the triple threat right there. Yes,
Speaker 1 (01:06):
we're all doing well. That's great. So call in 888-564-6173
or you can also submit your questions online.
There are 3 ways to do that. There's messenger on
the Pastor's perspective Facebook page, or you can DM us
on the pastor's perspective Instagram, or if you're watching right
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(01:28):
QR code, and that'll take you to the pastor's perspective
page at Kwave.com, where you can fill out that form,
send it in.
And uh we might read your question at a later date.
Not today though, today, uh, we've already got the questions
picked out that we would read for today, but you
can send them in and we'll have them for tomorrow
or some other date. But uh we'd like chatting with you,
(01:49):
so if you can call in, that'd be wonderful. 888-564-6173.
Let's begin with a question that was submitted online. It
is from Christian and
West Covina, who writes, I've been in music ministry since
I was 8 years old, and now at 34, it's
still a huge part of who I am. When I
lost my father at 18, I fell away from God
for a while. It took me years to heal and
(02:11):
find my way back. Since then, I've let go of
a lot of things from the world and returned to
my music, hoping God would show me what He wants
me to do.
Recently I talked to a pastor, someone my brother knows,
not my own pastor, and he told me that I
should hang up my music for a while and focus
only on seeking God. I understand where he might be
coming from, but I'm honestly struggling with it. I feel
(02:35):
like I'm getting older, and sometimes it feels like my
gift is fading the longer I let it sit. I'm
reading my Bible, praying, and trying to grow, but I'm
also wondering if God still wants to use me through
music or if He has something else for me.
So my question is this Do I really need to
put my music aside to seek God, or can I
seek Him while still using the gift He gave me?
(02:57):
I want to do what's right. I just want to
follow God's direction, and I don't want to lose the
gift He placed in me. I'm truly trying to hear
His voice in all of this. Char, what would you
tell Christian? Yeah, I think Christian is, I mean, just
sounds like he's in a state of honestly wanting to
seek God.
And it's not a question of, you know, is this
sinful or is this, you know, an unhealthy habit that
(03:20):
should be laid aside. The answer to those things would
be yes. But more so, you know, is this, um,
kind of longing for God to use this gift and
ability as a distraction to what God actually wants to do.
And
Yeah, I, I think Christian, if that was the case,
that would be kind of confirmed by you. Like, you know,
I do think that there are times where God might
(03:42):
call us to like, hey, like, give me focused attention.
Like you're kind of, you know, you want to talk
about with me about these things, but this is what
I want to focus on, right? And so just let's
lay that stuff aside. Let's come away, you know, let's
just be with one another and, you know, time to
just really learn from the Lord, maybe sit and heal
from past things, whatever that might be.
(04:02):
Um, but to me, that would be something that would
deeply resonate with you. And, um, so for me, it
doesn't sound like this resonates. It doesn't sound like, uh,
something that you are feeling deeply convicted that you need
to do. And so I, I think I would just
want to kind of focus more on the side of, um,
(04:23):
Like this gift that God has given you, just, I
don't know, maybe being more open-handed with it in the
sense of like, what, what does it mean that you
have a gift and what does it mean that God
uses it? Uh, I had a really poignant conversation with
a friend recently, and he was telling me that, uh,
years ago, he used to love playing music, but he
(04:46):
just became so insecure.
Uh, just based on like how people were receiving his music,
you know, like kind of, uh, whether they praised it, like, right, like, oh,
then I, you know, I should keep pursuing it. And
if they criticize it, man, he just felt so defeated.
And so basically, he just laid it aside and he
just found himself just missing just this personal expression just
(05:08):
of itself, but also to God.
And I just was encouraging him, man. I think you
just need to do this thing because God put it
in you, right? Like, forget about like what it does or,
you know, what it but like just the fact that
it like it brings you joy in your life. Like
that's something worth doing, right? And, and I think sometimes like,
And and it's not a bad question to ask, you know,
(05:30):
what is the purpose of this? Is it for others?
Is it for this? But I think like in a
very commercialized world of, you know, how is this going
to be used to reach people and minister to people,
maybe just dialing it back and thinking like, what does
this gift actually mean to me that God has given
this gift to me and how do I just do it?
As a part of God's creation, expressing myself back to
(05:55):
God for this amazing gift that he's given us. And
so I would just encourage you, Christian, maybe just to
kind of bring it back to the basic, why do
you love to play music, right? And could it be
simply that you love to play it, then play it,
you know, just enjoy it. I, I think about, uh,
there's the movie Chariots of Fire, and I know that
this is not canon according to what Eric Little actually said,
(06:15):
but
There's a scene in the movie, right, where his sister's
telling him like, you can't run on the Sabbath for
the Olympics because you're breaking, you know, God's heart and
like the law and these things and
And he has this line where he says to her, look,
I don't know about all that. This is what I know.
God made me fast and when I run, I feel
his pleasure.
(06:37):
And I think that that is one of the most
Christian statements I've ever heard, especially coming out of a
film out of Hollywood, right? Like, man, that God has
actually given me this gift, and when I use it,
I feel God smile on me. I feel like I'm
doing part of what I was created to do. And
so Christian, I would just encourage you to kind of
(06:58):
just maybe dig a little deeper in how and why
God has given you this gift. Yeah. What would you say, Justin?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yeah, I think that's really good advice. Um, I was
trying to think of, you know, where, where can gifts
like this be a distraction, and I'll confess I'm no musician. Um, I've,
I've never really had, uh, had any of these distractions,
but it seems to me that they all fade away
if you remove the audience and the performance, and those
(07:27):
types of things. And, you know, even in terms of
finding your way back to God and finding your place
again in the church, I can totally understand.
Where that might create some, uh, some obstacles to keeping
the right thing the right thing. Um, but, but, you know,
if you take Char's advice and you just apply it
privately in your own life, if you can just learn, um,
(07:51):
you know, to use the gifts that God has given
you as an act of private and personal worship, um,
and then you don't worry about the outlets and the
avenues and the next steps and the greater venue, um.
That, that I think is the, the essence of, of
where it begins. I had a friend, also a musician,
who used to say, take the things you love and
(08:13):
use them to elevate your love of God in a
greater way. It, it's not necessarily an either or, it's,
it's using the things we love to recognize that every
good and perfect gift comes from the Father of lights
and so it makes him worthy of worship. Every good
gift is, uh, to be received with thanksgiving.
Um, but also to turn it around and, and refract
(08:36):
that loving Father of lights and respond, uh, with the
gifts he's given us. And so, you know, I think
if you can use this privately and devotionally and it
stirs in you a deeper love for God, then there's
no distraction here.
That that's all upside, you know, but, but yeah, maybe,
maybe there are some public temptations or, or again just
(08:59):
things that are a little bit thornier, and you should
just set them aside for a while, but, but I
don't see any reason to set aside music. I think,
you know, um, some people would argue that storytelling is,
is the essence of how God has designed humans, but
music's pretty far up there, and I think I could
go blind.
And I think I could lose the ability to follow
(09:21):
a story much easier than I could lose the ability
to enjoy music. There's something so significant
about it.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, I agree. The other thing Christian brought up is
that it wasn't his pastor who told him this. It
was his brother's pastor, and I, you know, again, we
welcome people to call in here and ask us your questions,
even if Char isn't your pastor, you know, you can
call into the program, but
Um, I would think Christian asking the pastor at his church,
(09:49):
somebody who might know him a little bit better. Yeah,
that's kind of why I started with kind of just like,
does this resonate with you, right? I mean, just because
we're really just talking about from one Christian's probably perspective
and advice to another, right? And on a secondary issue,
like a non-biblical issue, right, we're not talking about sin,
we're not talking about, um, you know, a gray area
(10:10):
or something like that that's like very clear in scripture, like,
oh yeah, yeah, set that aside, you know.
And so, like, yeah, does this other Christian, their perspective
and their advice, does it resonate with you? If it doesn't,
that's fine. That's their story and you can continue to
move on and seek Jesus in the way that you
feel he's called you to, the way that your community
is confirming, like, yeah, keep going. So.
(10:32):
All right, Christian, thanks for sending in your question online.
And now we're gonna go to the phones at 888-564-6173.
Plenty of time for you to call in and ask
your question of Char or Justin, 888-564-6173. Let's begin with
Carla listening in Harupa Valley, California on FM 107.9 K wave. Hey, Carla,
(10:53):
thanks for calling.
Uh hello. Um, my question is, in Isaiah,
It says how the virgin will bring forth the son
and call her, his name will be called Emmanuel.
I know Emmanuel means God with us, but why was he,
why in the
Speaker 2 (11:11):
New Testament
Speaker 1 (11:11):
did they say you'll call him Jesus? Why wasn't he
called Emmanuel?
All right, Justin, you wanna start?
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, um, it's, it's a good question, and
I think what we need to recognize is that the
way that the word name is used in scripture, and
especially in Old Testament prophecy, is broader than the way
we use names. I, I have like one name and
maybe one pet name that my wife uses, you know.
Um, but if you look at the Old Testament prophecies
(11:40):
of the Messiah, there's quite a few different names or
titles that are given. Even in Isaiah, just a few
chapters later, uh, the one to come is identified as
the righteous branch, uh, and if you keep reading, he
shall be called wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting Father, Prince
of Peace. And so I think it can be confusing
to us cause I don't know, maybe you met an Emmanuel,
(12:03):
like I, it wouldn't surprise me if somebody had taken
that on as a personal name.
But we need to recognize that it's really serving as
a title, and uh and even the name Jesus, although
it is a personal name, Joshua, it goes all the
way back to uh characters in the Old Testament and
was relatively common in Jesus' day. What's
Significant about his name is not his name, but the
(12:25):
meaning of his name. They shall call him Jesus, Jehovah
saves because he will save people from their sins. Um,
and so, so yeah, uh, Emmanuel is, is not.
Jesus' name or even the Messiah's name, it emphasizes what's
unique about the Messiah, right? That, that God would come
(12:46):
and dwell in the midst of his people, like John
tells us that Jesus took on flesh, the word took
on flesh and tabernacle is the word that he uses, uh, there,
just like the tabernacle in the Old Testament, in the,
in the midst of Israel, so Jesus was in the
midst of humanity, God, uh, with us.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Char, anything to add? I mean, it's commonly believed that
this prophecy in Isaiah 2 has a both a near
and a far application to it. And so some have speculated,
some biblical commentators have speculated.
That there literally was a child named Emmanuel that is born,
because what's being talked about here is, um, the, um,
(13:28):
I think it's the Assyrian army, and the way that
they are besieging Jerusalem. And there's questions that the king
has of like, when's this going to end? What's happening?
And he's seeking all these false prophets, but Isaiah is
sent to him with this message about God's deliverance. And
so he says, this is going to be the sign
that this is actually going to happen. And so,
Some believe that this literally happened in King Ahaz's day.
(13:48):
There was a child named Emmanuel was born, and before
he was even weaned, the army had dispersed and gone
back to Assyria. But we understand that there is a
secondary fulfillment of this, and this is speaking of something
that is to come, that there will be literally God
will be with us.
And he will manifest himself. And of course, Isaiah's whole
(14:11):
prophecy is concerned with, you know, as Justin said, the
righteous branch, uh, the servant of Yahweh, who is going
to perform the second exodus to deliver Israel from judgment
and from exile. And so, yeah, so that could be
another reason why, yeah, we got this name Emmanuel. But
(14:32):
then when we come to Matthew, you know,
He's named Jesus. The interesting thing is, is that Matthew
says explicitly to, um, you know, when he's telling the
story of Jesus' birth, Gabriel tells Joseph, yeah, you're gonna
name him Jesus, for he will save his people from
their sins. But then Matthew comments and says, this is
(14:52):
to fulfill what the prophet Isaiah said. He shall be
called Emmanuel, God with us. And so,
You know, there's no doubt that this is the connection, right?
Like this is the right person. They are fulfilling this
prophecy in uh Isaiah. So Justin.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah, um, I think, I think that's a good point,
and I've, I've heard that reading of Isaiah as well. Uh,
this is not easy to do on the radio, but,
but I'm, I'm not convinced that's the best way to
read the passage just because
The pronouns change in that passage from singular to plural
and back to singular, and like I said, in English,
you and you, or you all, uh, we say the
(15:35):
same way, and so you won't see this in your
Bibles unless you have good footnotes, um, but it's possible
here that there's actually more than one thing going on
and
Just if I can lay out a couple of clues,
we'll give homework to our audience tonight. It's very interesting
that this is the only time in the entire book
of Isaiah that Isaiah brings along his son, and he's
explicitly told to do so, and then he's never mentioned
(15:57):
again in the passage. Uh, and so what I would
suggest is there's two things going on here. There's communication
to Ahaz.
And then there's a communication to the house of Judah, uh,
to the, the kingship as a whole, in the same way,
there are two children here, there is the one born
of a virgin who will be called Emmanuel, and there's
Isaiah's son who, before he knows right or wrong, uh,
(16:21):
Ahaz will be delivered, and I would suggest that if
you pay attention to the pronouns, you can actually isolate
those things out. Um, and so, so anyways, uh, I,
I think, uh.
I think, uh, Char makes a good point, and he's
not alone in that possibility, but, but I, I remain
(16:41):
convinced that that is a prophecy to be understood as
a prophecy, and
I would suggest instead of the principle of double fulfillment,
a near and far, a principle of double reference, that
we have two very close things happening, and it's only
with time and perspective that we can tell the difference.
Like when Jesus in Luke chapter 4 opens up to
(17:01):
Isaiah and reads a passage, close up the scroll and says,
today this is filled in your hearing, but the next
word in Isaiah.
is the word and. He stops mid-sentence. He stops before
it says, and the day of vengeance our God of
our God, because he's saying there's a, there's a gap here.
The year of Jubilee, the year of the Lord's favor,
that's happening now. The vengeance, the second coming, that happens later,
(17:23):
and the only reason we can read Isaiah that way
is because we watched Jesus read it. That's the principle
of double reference, so.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Carla, thanks for your phone call today on Pastor's Perspective.
And now we'll go to Jenny and Redlands who's listening
on the Kwave app. Hi there, Jenny, thanks for downloading
the app and thanks for calling 888-564-6173.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
You're welcome and thanks for being there for the call. Um,
so I have a friend of 28 years and
Sorry.
He has pancreatic cancer and.
With the prognosis, he was given about 4 to 6
months left to live. Uh, he grew up Catholic, but
(18:07):
he's not demonstrated a connection to his faith since I've
known him.
He declares he's, he's good, and I'm putting air quotes there,
with his relationship with God and does not seem to
want to have any in-depth conversations about it. I asked
him if he knows if he is going to heaven
when he dies.
And
(18:29):
He said he didn't think there was any reason why
he wouldn't, but he couldn't say for sure. And so
I shared that he can know for sure, and I
talked with him a bit about trusting Jesus as his
savior and that the Bible helps us clearly understand it.
And it's apart from any religious affiliation. It's the same
for all of us.
And um I want to be able to encourage him
(18:52):
to connect with God through scripture and prayer in the
time that he has left just to prepare his heart
and have a good understanding and deeper connection so he
can look forward to eternity. And I'm just wondering if
you can give some good recommendations for a scripture that
I could specifically share with him and if there were
any good book
Speaker 1 (19:13):
recommendations for someone in his circumstance that you could recommend.
OK, Char, we'll start with you.
Yeah, Jenny, um, I'm so very sorry and yeah, I
just will be thinking about you and praying for you
just for wisdom and yeah, just the right words of
comfort and encouragement.
(19:34):
Um, I, I think for me, I'm thinking about that
passage where Jesus talks about those who are rich in
this world and yet are not rich towards God.
And I think for many.
Yeah, many, you know, religious people even, right? They may
(19:54):
have um a whole list of religious activities that they
have kind of given themselves to in their life of observing,
and yet they're not rich towards God. Like
Between them and God, there really isn't much to talk about.
They haven't invested much time.
Just knowing God and allowing God to know them, if
you know what I mean. And I think for me,
(20:16):
when I, when I hear, you know, kind of, um,
his response, for me, I think that's what I would encourage.
And you believe that you are, that nothing is going
to bar you from heaven.
Like, how ready are you to meet with God?
Like, what is there between you and God? What is
(20:36):
there to talk about, to spend all eternity with God? Like,
what's that about? And so exploring that with him to
kind of stir up, I, I think, a curiosity about
what it means that he's going to meet God. And I,
and I would hope that through that really kind of
You know, to, to get down to those key things. Man,
(20:57):
Jesus is the only one who can prepare us to
meet the Father, of course, who first introduces us to
the great love of the Father, but also makes the
way clear that we can be freed from our guilt
and our sin and can become children of God who
have that, you know, um, familial, um, relationship. And, you know,
(21:22):
it's Paul says that
The spirit that cries out in such an intimate way,
Father Abba, right? And so I, I think for me if,
if this was the situation I was in, that's where
I would want to try to lead my friend in,
in those kind of deeper questions about preparing to meet
with the Lord. Justin, what would you add?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Yeah, um, I, I think, uh, apart from the scriptures,
and I have a few in mind, um, the Bible
over and over again recognizes that God Himself plays a
part in revealing Himself, even through His word. And so,
you know, when Jesus is with the disciples at the
(22:06):
end of the Gospel of Luke after his resurrection.
It says that he opened their minds to understand the scriptures,
and Paul repeatedly prays that his churches would have the
eyes of their hearts enlightened, and the psalmist prays, uh,
open my eyes so that I might behold wonders in
your word.
And so I would encourage you to to begin by
(22:28):
praying that God would do that, that not only would
you bring his word that's faithful and true and there's
a light in the darkness, but also that God would
open his eyes and his ears and his heart, uh,
to see what he's never seen before in his word. Um,
but the two passages that came to mind, both of
them from the apostle John, are in John chapter 11, uh,
(22:51):
when Jesus, uh, goes to the funeral of Lazarus and
You know, not only does he raise the dead there,
but I'm thinking particularly of his conversations with Mary and
Martha and his disciples.
Um, I think it's important, um, it's, I think it's
important that your friend wrestles with who Jesus says he is,
(23:11):
and there's something very significant when Jesus looks in the
eyes of a weeping woman who just lost her brother
and says, I am the resurrection and the life. If
anyone believes in me, even though he dies, he shall live. I,
I think your friend needs to, to take that claim and,
and do something with it.
But also you mentioned the way that you described where
(23:33):
he is made me think of the word of assurance. He, he's,
he's not sure, you know, and I always think that the,
the word of God can do the heavy lifting, and
so we should turn to passages that address the problems
our friends and our family have and John chapter one.
Uh, is embedded in a book where John's whole purpose
is saying, I write these things so that you may
(23:55):
know that in Jesus Christ you have eternal life. It's
a book about assurance, and John chapter one is especially
important because John challenges those who would say, I don't
need a savior. He says, if you say that you
have no sin.
If you say that you are without sin, he challenges
all of these things, and as uh in contrast to that,
(24:18):
he says, but if we confess our sins.
God is faithful and just to forgive us and to
cleanse us of all unrighteousness, and by the time you
get to chapter 2 verse 2, which is where this
section ends, he presents Jesus Christ as the mediator, as
our advocate, as our propitiation, who saves us from our sins, um,
(24:38):
and so it doesn't just say, uh, how can you know,
it says, who you know is significant, and it points
to Jesus. And so John chapter 11.
And John 1:1 or maybe John 1:5 all the way through, uh,
chapter 2, verse two, I think both of those passages
would be, would be, um, encouraging and, and, uh, insightful
(25:02):
to you and your friend.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
What do you think, Jenny?
That's really great, thank you. And I will say too,
I wholeheartedly agree that the first prayer is that, you know,
God reveals
Speaker 2 (25:16):
these
Speaker 1 (25:16):
things
Speaker 2 (25:16):
to
Speaker 1 (25:16):
him. So I just thank you so much for that.
And um can I just ask to follow up,
Speaker 2 (25:23):
do you know of any um maybe special books that
have been written to people who are thinking through the
end of their life like this that could
Speaker 1 (25:31):
be something that would be a
comfort to him?
Can you guys think of anything?
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Yeah, I don't know one on preparing for death, but
I keep thinking of Timothy Keller's walking with God Through suffering. Um,
you know, he, he deals with the whole concept of suffering,
but it's not just doctrinal, it's not just philosophical, it's
also very devotional, personal, applicational, um, and, and it comes
(25:59):
at it from a bunch of different angles, and so
I think that would be a very good recommendation.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Yeah, I was thinking of Tim Keller as well. He actually, um,
I think this is.
Um, produced, um, uh, March 3rd, 2020. It's a How
to Find God three book, uh, box set on birth,
on marriage, on death. And so I would highly recommend
that as well. And I know that in Tim's final years,
(26:24):
he wrote a lot on death and the hope that
we have in Jesus.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
OK, excellent. I really, yeah, in fact, he, he died
of pancreatic cancer a few years ago.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah, right, yeah,
Speaker 2 (26:37):
OK,
Speaker 1 (26:38):
thank you so
much, and Jenny, if I can also, uh, give you
the phone number for the chapel store at Calvary Chapel,
Costa Mesa because you can speak to one of the, uh,
customer service reps there, and, uh, they know every book that.
Ever been written. OK, maybe not everyone, but a lot
of them, so I'm sure that they could find something
in their database or whatever. 714-540-2941 is their number. They're
(27:03):
here on the campus of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, 714-540-2941.
All right, Jenny, thanks for calling us today on Pastor's Perspective. Oh,
really quick, what is your friend's first name?
Jim, Jim, all right, so if everyone listening and watching
can keep Jenny in prayer for wisdom and guidance as
she speaks with her friend Jim and also, uh, pray
(27:23):
for Jim as well. Here's a question that was sent
in online before we, uh, go to the break. It's
from Robert Nduarte who asks, why does God Almighty choose
eternal punishment for non-believers instead of punishment that's less than eternal?
What do you say, Justin?
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah, um, I think it's a, it's a, it's a
good question. Um, I think first we, we need to
recognize that, um,
That scripture does seem to lay out the eternal significance
of our choices and eternal consequence. And so Jesus contrasts
those who will go into everlasting life, and those who
(28:04):
would go into everlasting torment, and by mentioning them in
the same breath, one is as long as the other
and the other as long as the first, and so
I think this is something that scripture is uh relatively
clear on.
In in terms of why I think, uh, the significance
is found in the reality of what sin is. Human
(28:26):
beings and God are not equal. It's, it's not like, uh, mistreating, uh,
or misrepresenting a friend or a family member or a
corporation or a pastor or a local church. God is
our creator. Uh, he made us, he is benevolent and good.
(28:46):
Uh, his rules, his laws are for our good, uh,
and so they're not arbitrary, um, and so I think
we have to sit and recognize and, and feel the
weight of the significance to rebel against God, to stand
against him, um, but also.
(29:06):
I've always resonated with what CS Lewis says, uh, in
the Problem of pain. He closes that book by just saying, what,
what are you asking God to do, to stand in
the way of sinners and, and to try and seek
a way, a path so that they can avoid this, to,
to offer his own body in, in place of this,
(29:27):
he's done that.
Uh, he's, he's given this great offer of forgiveness, done
everything required so that we can be fully restored into
relationship with him. To refuse that to some, some degree
is just to give people a choice and take them seriously.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
All right, Richard, thanks for, or Robert, thanks for sending
in your question. We'll see if Char wants to add
anything when we come back from the break here on
Pastor's Perspective. Phone lines open for another 30 minutes at 888-564-6173, 888-564-6173.
(30:17):
We're back on Pastor's Perspective. The number to call is 888-564-6173.
I'm Brian Perez here with Char Broderson, the lead pastor
of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, and Justin Thomas, the president
of the Calvary Chapel Bible College in Bradenton, Florida. Right
before the break, we were reading or answering a question
that Robert sent in. Why does God Almighty choose eternal
(30:39):
punishment for non-believers instead of punishment that's less than eternal?
We heard what Justin had to say. Char, your turn.
Yeah, I think when we think about like, we, we
can't really talk about eternal punishment without talking about God's
eternal kingdom because it's basically all of creation is heading
to one of two ends, right? And either it is
(31:02):
life in God's kingdom, which Paul tells us is righteousness,
is peace, it's joy, just the way that the prophets
describe the new creation and all that God desires to
do for humanity. I mean, like,
That's what we are given, and then the other choice
is the antithesis of that. It is outside of the
(31:23):
eternal kingdom of God. And so, if you reject
God and His eternal kingdom, what are you choosing? An
eternity apart from that. So I think we sometimes we
make this a little bit more complicated. I appreciated what
Justin was saying too, like, you know,
Yes, is there punishment in scripture? Clearly there is, but
(31:44):
God does not punish people by sending them to hell.
Everyone is headed towards destruction and judgment. That is the
end of all people, and God has come in the
person of Jesus Christ to bring us back under his
reign and into this partnership with him. He is
(32:04):
Saved us and offers us salvation. And, and so I do,
I appreciate Louis's words there and I was thinking about
them as well. Like, what are we asking then? Beyond that,
God has done everything possible that we would not receive
this judgment and this punishment.
Justin
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Yeah, I just thought of the closing line of that passage,
and it's so powerful. He says, all this mercy, and
yet hell exists.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah.
Very good. Robert, thank you for sending in your question
on the pastor's perspective page at Kwave.com, which you can
easily get to if you scan the QR code if
you're watching us on Facebook, YouTube, or Instagram. 888-564-6173. That's
the number to call if you want to ask the
guys in person. Here is Darlene, who's watching us on
(32:53):
YouTube in Pomona. Hi there, Darlene, thanks for calling in today.
Hi, uh, first of all, my question, it has, uh,
has nothing to do with my faith. Um, I still
believe Jesus Christ is a Messiah. He is the one
we go for, go towards to, um, uh, forgive our
sins so we can live in eternity with God. But
(33:16):
I do struggle with certain passages. So that's, I just
wanted to bring that this is not a make or
break for my faith, um, uh, Ezra chapter.
Chapter 10 talks about when the Israelite nation comes back
and they have these strange wives and they have to
um get right with God, so they have to divorce them.
And um just two things I was wondering if you
(33:38):
could give me some insight because this whole chapter really
kind of, I struggled with it. Um, we're having a
women's Bible study, so I just want to get some
insight on it. It's
And the people are many. Uh, in verse 11, it
talks about how they had to stand outside in the rain.
So in order to not have people stand outside in
the rain, you know, let's kind of hurry this up.
(34:00):
That kind of it's like the impression that I got. And, um,
second of all, what, what, um, what, what were the
wives and the children given? What type of compensation doesn't
really mention.
And I know Pastor Chuck has always say where God
is silent, so should we, but maybe I missed something
in reading this, and uh yeah, so.
(34:23):
Yeah, insight. That's a great question, and I love, I
love what you said. I, I think that that's the
right thing, right? We have faith in Jesus. We believe, um,
all that God has said in and through the person
of Jesus Christ. And yet there's a lot of things
in scripture that are confusing, right? And these are the
things that we get to wrestle over and and question. And, um,
(34:45):
you know, we're reading a book that is
ancient, and it wasn't even written in our language and
didn't even have our culture in mind when it was written.
So there's a lot of confusing things, and especially if
we don't know the broader context of what's going on.
And so, you know, for anybody that turns to Ezra
is like, OK, God says here that you need to
divorce your wife in order to be right with them.
(35:07):
That sounds like the opposite of what I read back
in Exodus, you know, so, yeah, there's some confusion here.
So what's going on is, uh, you know, let's, let's
fast forward, uh, excuse me, let's rewind back, uh, before
the exile.
Right, God had warned Israel that if they intermarried with
the nations around them, that they would be influenced and
(35:31):
led away to worship other gods. Now, the interesting thing is,
is that King Solomon is kind of the leader in
this work. He marries
Foreign wives, and he goes so far to even set up,
you know, temples to the goddess Ashara, right, from the
Sidonians and, and he introduces idolatry into Israel. And so
(35:54):
the rest of the story of Israel leading up to
the judgment.
Right, of, of the Babylonian exile, the Syrian exile. All
of this is, you know, basically because King Salman opened
the gate to lead them away. But I think key
to that is his mingling with foreign women, foreign nations
that leads into idolatry.
(36:15):
And so what's happening here in Ezra is that people
have come back from exile, they're in the land. This
is like new creation, renewal, a start over, right? We
can rebuild, we can take back the covenant, we can
be the people of God and fulfill the purposes of God,
(36:35):
and right out the gate, here they are, they're intermarrying
with foreign women again. And so, you know, if you
were Ezra, you'd be like,
Well, I mean, it tells us, right? Is it Ezra
that's ripping out his hair? And I think Jeremiah's or
Nehemiah is ripping out other people's hair, right? It's like
the responses are like, what are you doing? Oh my gosh, like,
(36:56):
we're just repeating the same story again. So that's what's
going on in this passage, and that's why these wives
are to be
divorced and removed. And I actually believe that what God
is looking for is what he instructed with Moses, right?
When the Israelites divorced, they gave a legitimate certificate of divorce, uh,
(37:22):
that would set the wife up so that she would
not be bereaved of all support and
You know, kind of her Social Security at that time. Uh, so,
I believe that they were being called by Ezra, who
is a Levite, to follow through with the law to
do what is just, to do what is right towards
their wives and their children. And I actually believe that
(37:42):
later in the prophets, when we're talking, um, um, I'm
trying to remember right now who the prophet is, it's
talking about how God hates divorce because it adds violence, um,
Justin, help me here, uh, Malachi. Yeah, it's Malachi. I'm
pretty sure it's Malachi. Yeah, I think I actually believe
that Malachi is responding to this issue, is that the
(38:04):
Israelites have actually gone too far, and they have put
out the women and the children in such a way
to expose them. And so this really is this balancing
act like, OK, how do we
Do what God is asking us to do, not intermingle,
divorce our wives righteously. And this is actually referenced even
in the New Testament. Joseph is going to uh put
(38:26):
away Mary, and he's gonna do it righteously, according to
the law, right? How do we do this in a
way that honors God, that's just, that's right, but also
doesn't expose them, doesn't just leave them out to dry.
And so this is a really sticky situation that they
have found themselves in. Justin. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Yeah, well, I think we should recognize that that's the
nature of sin, right? Sin makes messes, and, uh, and
it obvious, or I mean, just think of the very
first sin, they, they leave the garden and the way
back to the garden, flaming sword. There's no going backwards.
They've got to figure out a way to go forwards,
and sometimes that's how it is with our sin. Um,
but I think it's really important that we remember, uh,
(39:06):
that we are not Israel.
Um, and so it's interesting that in 1 Corinthians chapter 7,
Paul addresses believers who are married to nonbelievers, and he
gives a very different, uh, piece of advice. He specifically says,
if your unbelieving husband will stay with you, great, stay
(39:27):
with him. If, if not, then you lose the opportunity
to reach him evangelistically, and what about your kids? Is
that's a paraphrase of what he says.
But he basically says you're, you're not in an unholy
marriage just because you're married to a non-believer, but that's
different than Israel. And if you read the, uh, the
(39:48):
Old Testament law as a whole, there's a lot of
severity and extremity in the laws because of what Israel is,
you know, they.
The question that the book of Leviticus is trying to
answer is how can a holy God dwell in the
midst of a sinful people, and the answer is with
a lot of care and attention to detail. I mean that's,
that's really what's going on, and so Israel's calling is unique,
(40:11):
their law is unique, uh, and once Jesus comes, he
fulfills that law, and we're not on the same place,
so we need to remember that Ezra is for us,
but it's not written to us.
And we can't just go, OK, Ezra commanded this, so
this is how we should live today. No, we have
very clear instruction in the New Testament of how we're
to respond to these things because we are part of
the new covenant and not the old covenant, and so
(40:34):
I think it's important to keep that in mind, but
I have no problem recognizing, wow, the Old Testament law
is severe.
Um, and it's not because God is severe in the
Old Testament and soft in the New Testament, it's because
the unique calling of Israel in the context of being
brought out from Egypt and in the midst of Canaan
(40:54):
and and still trying to uh represent God is so, uh,
so significant that, yeah, consequences are severe.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Darlene, what do you think of the answers? Oh, thank you. I, it, it, um,
clears up a lot.
I appreciate it and I appreciate all that you, um,
that you men do and the ladies who are on
as well as far as explaining scripture. Yeah, thank you,
darling so much. Thank you for calling in today on
Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number Darlene called, and you
(41:31):
can call as well, 888-564-6173. Here's one that was sent
in online on the Pastor's Perspective Facebook using Messenger. Chantal
from Ontario writes, I'm looking.
For some biblical guidance regarding a recent conflict with my mom.
She accused me of something completely out of my character
involving my brother, who has struggled with addiction for many years.
(41:53):
It was very hurtful and led to a serious fight.
She's been renting a room in my home but is
now moving out, something she had been considering even before.
The truth is, we've never had a close relationship. Our
personalities are very different, and she never really built that
mother-daughter bond with me.
I've accepted that she may never be able to love
(42:13):
me in the way I've wanted or needed, but the
situation has still been stressful and painful. I want to
show grace while also protecting my peace, says Chantal, and
I don't want this to harden my heart. Do you
have any scriptures, biblical stories, or pastoral advice that can
help me stay grounded, trust God through this, and heal
(42:34):
from these mother wounds in a healthy way? Justin, what
do you tell Chantelle?
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Yeah, I mean there's a lot of pieces here, but
I think um we need to recognize that uh forgiveness
is one directional, but reconciliation takes two people. And so
the Bible regularly and consistently calls us to forgiveness, and
when we are sinned against, to avoid bitterness. Uh, and
(43:01):
so we always need to be able to do that part,
but reconciliation.
That actually requires both parties to move. It requires like-mindedness
on what happened, to agree on what happened, it, it
requires the rebuilding of trust, and that requires both patience and, uh,
and boundaries and all of these things. And so what
(43:23):
I think um is helpful here is to be encouraged
by the command that Paul gives in Romans. He tells
the Roman Church, as much as it is possible with you,
be at peace with all men.
And, and I'll be the first to admit that, uh,
that we have a tendency either to do much less
that is impossible or way beyond and above what is
(43:46):
possible in terms of feeling like we've done our part.
Some of us are prone to go, you know what,
I've done enough way too early, and there really is
more that we can do, and there are other times
where people
Uh, feel like if they just go above and beyond
and do everything, then the person has to respond, and
so they keep working and pushing and pushing and pushing.
(44:08):
So it's not an easy thing to go, OK, have
I done as much as is possible with me? But I,
I do want to point out that Paul's recognition is
that's all that's required of us. We are to be
a people of peace, but the Bible recognizes that there
will be people who are opposed to peace, people who
continue to choose hostility.
Uh, in fact, Jesus warns of us casting pearls before swine,
(44:31):
of doing things that aren't worthwhile because there's no room
left for a positive reception, and so, um, regardless though, I,
I just wanna encourage you, and it sounds like you're
always already on this track.
We're called to honor our father and mother, we're called
to respect our parents, and frankly, we're called to love
(44:51):
our enemies, and so there's not really a posture here
that removes you from attempting to do those things in
your own life, but, but it sounds like, at least
in this season in this time, moving out is, is good.
It's a loss, it's painful, and I hear even in
the story you've told, you, you love your mother.
Uh, and that's where this pain and this loss comes from.
(45:14):
Maybe not the stress, the stress is everything else, but, uh, but.
What's important is to continue to affirm those things, affirm
that respect, and be open to the opportunity and the
possibility of reconciliation. Again, there's a part you can't do,
and you don't have to do, uh, you don't have
(45:34):
to pretend like nothing's wrong. It, it has to come
from both sides, um, but you do have to remain
open to that, and I think it's important to remember
that the word never, whenever we find it in our vocabulary,
is an expression of unbelief.
Right? It, it's, it draws a line in the sand
and says, I will never forgive, I will never trust
them again. I will never let our words be few.
(45:58):
God is in heaven, we're on earth. God has the
ministry of reconciliation. He does miracles, so we should stay open,
but we don't have to be, uh, unrealistic.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Chart, what would you add?
Oh man, yeah, I
You know, family dynamics are, it's just such an interesting thing. I,
I think years ago, you know, I, I marveled, my dad,
his story is like really, really complex in his childhood,
his upbringing and
Um, I've just marveled at him. He's been such a
(46:30):
good dad, um, such a present, supportive father, and, and
my dad actually didn't have that. Um, he has a
great relationship with both of his parents now, but, uh,
when he was, yeah, 6 years old, um, his dad left,
his mom and his 3 sisters to fend for themselves
in LA.
And my dad just kind of talks. He's, he shared
(46:50):
with me a little bit about that. I just think about, man,
like all the things that he had to overcome and
that he's kind of worked through and, and I just
kind of marvel at the, the person that he has become. But,
but I never forget like where he's come from. And
so I, I bring all that up just because of
like the systemic brokenness, right? That this is just a
result of, right? The broken relationship, the coldness and in
(47:12):
their relationship, I can only imagine probably comes from, you know,
generations of hurt and
And probably similar dynamics, and, and I think
Like for me, I think just the, the more I
grow as a human, as a follower of Jesus, it
is just the desire to just kind of empathize and
just imagine, OK, like what, you know, what is it
(47:32):
like to be this person, you know, and, and why
do they do the things that they do. And I
think sometimes like we can only kind of look at
the situation, but to, to kind of think like, man,
what brought them here? Like, what makes them react in
this way, you know.
And, and I know for me in my heart, it's
made me a much more sympathetic, empathetic and compassionate person,
(47:55):
and has really driven me to prayer.
Right? Like, OK, and I believe, you know, behind all
of this are just these deep, deep father wounds, right? Like,
we don't know that we have a Father in the
heavens who knows us completely, loves us and accepts us
as we are broken and sinful and twisted and all these,
(48:16):
and yet he loves us. Like, and, and I just
desire for these types of people who have this kind
of brokenness that seeps out kind of on everyone around them.
To experience that deep, deep healing, transformative love of God.
And so I think that that's what I would just, um,
Yeah, encourage you, Chantelle, just to lean into the deep
(48:40):
love of God. You have a Father in the heavens
who loves you more than the love that you are
looking for from your mother, right? More than you can
possibly imagine, and that you would find all that you're
looking for and that you can't find in your mother,
that you would find that, uh, in the Father that
Jesus has revealed to us. And I think also, as
(49:01):
Justin was saying, you know, to keep your heart soft.
That you would just put yourself in your mother's shoes and, and,
and just see how she also needs the deep healing,
transformative love of the father to be revealed in her life.
And so to pray to that end.
Chantal, thanks for sending in your question on the pastor's
perspective Facebook Messenger. Uh, here's another one that was sent
(49:24):
in that same way. It's from Cathy and Paul who ask,
for people who say, I don't want to go to heaven,
heaven sounds boring. Will they be surprised that they can't
do whatever they want in hell? This sounds like a
riveting conversation.
Um, yeah, I mean, I think just when anybody talks
like this or things like this, I just feel like
(49:45):
you've been watching Looney Tunes way too long, you know, like,
have you considered what the scriptures, uh, actually in, in
Christian theology actually tells us about the kingdom of God
and what is in store. And unfortunately, we've relegated all
this to, you know, sitting on clouds, playing harps, wearing
all white, and just
You know, singing a mantra 24/7 for all of eternity. When, man,
(50:09):
like the kingdom of heaven and all that God has
in store for us. Paul says, eye has not seen,
ear has not heard, it hasn't even entered into our imagination.
But even the Spirit of God is beginning to reveal
to us that are gods, what that will be like.
And we see it manifest.
in Jesus, in his healing power and his authoritative teaching,
(50:31):
and the vision that he cast for the way that
we would live under his reign, and the way that
we love and care and serve for one another, the
way that we make peace um in our communities, right?
This is all that is bound up in the kingdom
of God. And so, man, it's like, do you love life?
Do you love uh the
beauty of the world around you. Do you love, you know,
(50:52):
your relationships with your family members? Do you like good food?
Do you enjoy smells and tastes and all these things? Well,
guess what? The kingdom of heaven is going to be that,
like times 1 trillion, right? Like what God has waiting
for us is a renewed creation, a new world without sin, brokenness,
and evil. I can't imagine.
(51:15):
That there is a human being on this planet that
doesn't actually want that. But I do think that there's
this great deception that, right, like, man, heaven's just going
to be so boring. Like we, hell's going to be better.
It's just this like, you know, listen to too much
AC DC or something. I don't know. So.
I'm done. Justin, yeah,
Speaker 2 (51:35):
yeah, no, I, I think, I think that's good. I think, uh,
you know, there's a
There's a self-interested misunderstanding here that that basically sees the
purpose of heaven is to fulfill all of my pleasures
and dreams, you know, and in a sense, it's not wrong,
you know, going back to the famous catechism, what is
(51:57):
the chief end of man?
To love or to glorify God and enjoy him forever,
you know, if human beings were really created for fellowship
with God, if that's where we find our deepest purpose,
our greatest comfort, uh, and, and all of the meaning, uh,
you know, then maybe trying to think of the fringe.
(52:19):
Benefits of heaven, like the duration of time that you'll
be there or uh or these types of things, maybe
that's a misunderstanding and, and I would suggest that that's
not really a dead end question that needs to be answered. You,
you just need to go, OK, well let's let's put
that on hold and let's talk about who God is. Let's,
let's have a conversation about.
(52:41):
About who God is, because the truth is, the vision
of heaven at the end of Revelation is full of
a thing, a lot of no's. There's no water, there's
no sun, there's no, most of the things we're told
about heaven are, are non-things, uh, but the one that
defines it, and the one that defines the Christian view
of heaven is that Jesus dwells in the midst of
(53:02):
his people, and they will be with him forever.
Uh, that is the aspiration, that is the desire, that
is the longing that we express when we say, come
Lord Jesus, uh, that is the comfort, uh, not just
that we won't cry anymore, but that God Himself will
wipe away our tears. Um, and so if you don't,
if you don't understand that, of, of course it's not
going to make sense, and yeah, there's all of these, uh,
(53:25):
hypotheticals in Hollywood that, that get in the way of
these things as well, but
But to some degree, it's, it's the wrong question. It's,
let's not talk about, uh, what eternity looks like until
we talk about the eternal one. Let's, let's just start
there and have that conversation first.
Speaker 1 (53:41):
I was at a wedding, uh, last weekend for my
old roommate, and, uh, I was asked to do the
prayer over the meal. And so there's a lot of,
you know, non-Christians. There are people who just, you know,
probably no religious affiliation.
And so, you know, praying at those types of things
sometimes is just interesting, right? Like I'm asking all these
people that, you know, they just assume that, you know,
we're all going to pray to this individual called Jesus.
(54:03):
So I just started by saying like, hey, like all
of this goodness that we're experiencing here and it's just
this like amazing sunset, you know, everybody's dressed incredibly, the
food's immaculate, right? Like everything's amazing. So it's like, we
believe that all of this goodness has a source. I
believe it comes from somewhere.
And his name is Jesus. Like, so like you're saying, Justin,
(54:24):
like imagine what this being is like.
The source of all life and all goodness. That's who
we're calling upon. That's who we are recognizing and thinking
in this moment. And so, yeah, like when we think about, like, man,
who made all this stuff, who gave us his life, uh,
he's the source of all of this goodness. That's what
(54:44):
the kingdom of heaven really is all about. Yeah.
Kathy and Paul, thank you for sending in your question
on the Pastor's Perspective Facebook page, and that is all
the time we have on today's episode of the program.
Thank you so much for calling in and submitting your questions.
If you couldn't get through today, we will be back
tomorrow between 3 and 4 p.m. Pacific time. If you
want to submit your question online, you can do that
(55:07):
on either the uh pastor's perspective Facebook.
Messenger, or on the Pastor's Perspective Instagram, you can DM
us there, or if you're watching on Facebook, YouTube or Instagram,
scan that QR code, that'll take you to the pastor's
perspective page at Kwave.com, where you can submit the form
and maybe, just maybe, we'll read it next time we're here.
(55:27):
But if you need an answer right away, call in
when we are here, 888-564.
617-3. Write down that number, put it in your phone
so that when that question comes up, or maybe you're
talking to a total stranger, and they ask you a
question that you can't answer, just say, hey, call my
friends at Pastor's Perspective, 888-564-6173. For Char Broderson and Justin Thomas,
(55:49):
I'm Brian Perez, and we'll talk to you next time
here on Pastor's Perspective.
Hello and welcome to Pastor's Perspective. I'm your host, Brian Perez.
It is Monday, December 8th, and we are here in
the studio until 4 o'clock to answer the questions you
have about the Bible, the Christian faith, just about anything
that's on your mind, we can talk about it. Maybe
you read something in your Bible this morning or in
a devotional.
And you're like, wait, what does this mean? I don't understand.
(00:39):
Call in, the number is 888-564-6173. We've got Char Broderson,
the lead pastor of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa here in
the studio, and Justin Thomas, the president of the Calvary
Chapel Bible College in Bradenton, Florida, joining us online. How
you doing, gentlemen? Doing well. Good. Yeah, how are you, Brian?
Doing well, thank you. Justin, how are you?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I also am doing well. That's the triple threat right there. Yes,
Speaker 1 (01:06):
we're all doing well. That's great. So call in 888-564-6173
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(01:28):
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can send them in and we'll have them for tomorrow
or some other date. But uh we'd like chatting with you,
(01:49):
so if you can call in, that'd be wonderful. 888-564-6173.
Let's begin with a question that was submitted online. It
is from Christian and
West Covina, who writes, I've been in music ministry since
I was 8 years old, and now at 34, it's
still a huge part of who I am. When I
lost my father at 18, I fell away from God
for a while. It took me years to heal and
(02:11):
find my way back. Since then, I've let go of
a lot of things from the world and returned to
my music, hoping God would show me what He wants
me to do.
Recently I talked to a pastor, someone my brother knows,
not my own pastor, and he told me that I
should hang up my music for a while and focus
only on seeking God. I understand where he might be
coming from, but I'm honestly struggling with it. I feel
(02:35):
like I'm getting older, and sometimes it feels like my
gift is fading the longer I let it sit. I'm
reading my Bible, praying, and trying to grow, but I'm
also wondering if God still wants to use me through
music or if He has something else for me.
So my question is this Do I really need to
put my music aside to seek God, or can I
seek Him while still using the gift He gave me?
(02:57):
I want to do what's right. I just want to
follow God's direction, and I don't want to lose the
gift He placed in me. I'm truly trying to hear
His voice in all of this. Char, what would you
tell Christian? Yeah, I think Christian is, I mean, just
sounds like he's in a state of honestly wanting to
seek God.
And it's not a question of, you know, is this
sinful or is this, you know, an unhealthy habit that
(03:20):
should be laid aside. The answer to those things would
be yes. But more so, you know, is this, um,
kind of longing for God to use this gift and
ability as a distraction to what God actually wants to do.
And
Yeah, I, I think Christian, if that was the case,
that would be kind of confirmed by you. Like, you know,
I do think that there are times where God might
(03:42):
call us to like, hey, like, give me focused attention.
Like you're kind of, you know, you want to talk
about with me about these things, but this is what
I want to focus on, right? And so just let's
lay that stuff aside. Let's come away, you know, let's
just be with one another and, you know, time to
just really learn from the Lord, maybe sit and heal
from past things, whatever that might be.
(04:02):
Um, but to me, that would be something that would
deeply resonate with you. And, um, so for me, it
doesn't sound like this resonates. It doesn't sound like, uh,
something that you are feeling deeply convicted that you need
to do. And so I, I think I would just
want to kind of focus more on the side of, um,
(04:23):
Like this gift that God has given you, just, I
don't know, maybe being more open-handed with it in the
sense of like, what, what does it mean that you
have a gift and what does it mean that God
uses it? Uh, I had a really poignant conversation with
a friend recently, and he was telling me that, uh,
years ago, he used to love playing music, but he
(04:46):
just became so insecure.
Uh, just based on like how people were receiving his music,
you know, like kind of, uh, whether they praised it, like, right, like, oh,
then I, you know, I should keep pursuing it. And
if they criticize it, man, he just felt so defeated.
And so basically, he just laid it aside and he
just found himself just missing just this personal expression just
(05:08):
of itself, but also to God.
And I just was encouraging him, man. I think you
just need to do this thing because God put it
in you, right? Like, forget about like what it does or,
you know, what it but like just the fact that
it like it brings you joy in your life. Like
that's something worth doing, right? And, and I think sometimes like,
And and it's not a bad question to ask, you know,
(05:30):
what is the purpose of this? Is it for others?
Is it for this? But I think like in a
very commercialized world of, you know, how is this going
to be used to reach people and minister to people,
maybe just dialing it back and thinking like, what does
this gift actually mean to me that God has given
this gift to me and how do I just do it?
As a part of God's creation, expressing myself back to
(05:55):
God for this amazing gift that he's given us. And
so I would just encourage you, Christian, maybe just to
kind of bring it back to the basic, why do
you love to play music, right? And could it be
simply that you love to play it, then play it,
you know, just enjoy it. I, I think about, uh,
there's the movie Chariots of Fire, and I know that
this is not canon according to what Eric Little actually said,
(06:15):
but
There's a scene in the movie, right, where his sister's
telling him like, you can't run on the Sabbath for
the Olympics because you're breaking, you know, God's heart and
like the law and these things and
And he has this line where he says to her, look,
I don't know about all that. This is what I know.
God made me fast and when I run, I feel
his pleasure.
(06:37):
And I think that that is one of the most
Christian statements I've ever heard, especially coming out of a
film out of Hollywood, right? Like, man, that God has
actually given me this gift, and when I use it,
I feel God smile on me. I feel like I'm
doing part of what I was created to do. And
so Christian, I would just encourage you to kind of
(06:58):
just maybe dig a little deeper in how and why
God has given you this gift. Yeah. What would you say, Justin?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yeah, I think that's really good advice. Um, I was
trying to think of, you know, where, where can gifts
like this be a distraction, and I'll confess I'm no musician. Um, I've,
I've never really had, uh, had any of these distractions,
but it seems to me that they all fade away
if you remove the audience and the performance, and those
(07:27):
types of things. And, you know, even in terms of
finding your way back to God and finding your place
again in the church, I can totally understand.
Where that might create some, uh, some obstacles to keeping
the right thing the right thing. Um, but, but, you know,
if you take Char's advice and you just apply it
privately in your own life, if you can just learn, um,
(07:51):
you know, to use the gifts that God has given
you as an act of private and personal worship, um,
and then you don't worry about the outlets and the
avenues and the next steps and the greater venue, um.
That, that I think is the, the essence of, of
where it begins. I had a friend, also a musician,
who used to say, take the things you love and
(08:13):
use them to elevate your love of God in a
greater way. It, it's not necessarily an either or, it's,
it's using the things we love to recognize that every
good and perfect gift comes from the Father of lights
and so it makes him worthy of worship. Every good
gift is, uh, to be received with thanksgiving.
Um, but also to turn it around and, and refract
(08:36):
that loving Father of lights and respond, uh, with the
gifts he's given us. And so, you know, I think
if you can use this privately and devotionally and it
stirs in you a deeper love for God, then there's
no distraction here.
That that's all upside, you know, but, but yeah, maybe,
maybe there are some public temptations or, or again just
(08:59):
things that are a little bit thornier, and you should
just set them aside for a while, but, but I
don't see any reason to set aside music. I think,
you know, um, some people would argue that storytelling is,
is the essence of how God has designed humans, but
music's pretty far up there, and I think I could
go blind.
And I think I could lose the ability to follow
(09:21):
a story much easier than I could lose the ability
to enjoy music. There's something so significant
about it.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, I agree. The other thing Christian brought up is
that it wasn't his pastor who told him this. It
was his brother's pastor, and I, you know, again, we
welcome people to call in here and ask us your questions,
even if Char isn't your pastor, you know, you can
call into the program, but
Um, I would think Christian asking the pastor at his church,
(09:49):
somebody who might know him a little bit better. Yeah,
that's kind of why I started with kind of just like,
does this resonate with you, right? I mean, just because
we're really just talking about from one Christian's probably perspective
and advice to another, right? And on a secondary issue,
like a non-biblical issue, right, we're not talking about sin,
we're not talking about, um, you know, a gray area
(10:10):
or something like that that's like very clear in scripture, like,
oh yeah, yeah, set that aside, you know.
And so, like, yeah, does this other Christian, their perspective
and their advice, does it resonate with you? If it doesn't,
that's fine. That's their story and you can continue to
move on and seek Jesus in the way that you
feel he's called you to, the way that your community
is confirming, like, yeah, keep going. So.
(10:32):
All right, Christian, thanks for sending in your question online.
And now we're gonna go to the phones at 888-564-6173.
Plenty of time for you to call in and ask
your question of Char or Justin, 888-564-6173. Let's begin with
Carla listening in Harupa Valley, California on FM 107.9 K wave. Hey, Carla,
(10:53):
thanks for calling.
Uh hello. Um, my question is, in Isaiah,
It says how the virgin will bring forth the son
and call her, his name will be called Emmanuel.
I know Emmanuel means God with us, but why was he,
why in the
Speaker 2 (11:11):
New Testament
Speaker 1 (11:11):
did they say you'll call him Jesus? Why wasn't he
called Emmanuel?
All right, Justin, you wanna start?
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, um, it's, it's a good question, and
I think what we need to recognize is that the
way that the word name is used in scripture, and
especially in Old Testament prophecy, is broader than the way
we use names. I, I have like one name and
maybe one pet name that my wife uses, you know.
Um, but if you look at the Old Testament prophecies
(11:40):
of the Messiah, there's quite a few different names or
titles that are given. Even in Isaiah, just a few
chapters later, uh, the one to come is identified as
the righteous branch, uh, and if you keep reading, he
shall be called wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting Father, Prince
of Peace. And so I think it can be confusing
to us cause I don't know, maybe you met an Emmanuel,
(12:03):
like I, it wouldn't surprise me if somebody had taken
that on as a personal name.
But we need to recognize that it's really serving as
a title, and uh and even the name Jesus, although
it is a personal name, Joshua, it goes all the
way back to uh characters in the Old Testament and
was relatively common in Jesus' day. What's
Significant about his name is not his name, but the
(12:25):
meaning of his name. They shall call him Jesus, Jehovah
saves because he will save people from their sins. Um,
and so, so yeah, uh, Emmanuel is, is not.
Jesus' name or even the Messiah's name, it emphasizes what's
unique about the Messiah, right? That, that God would come
(12:46):
and dwell in the midst of his people, like John
tells us that Jesus took on flesh, the word took
on flesh and tabernacle is the word that he uses, uh, there,
just like the tabernacle in the Old Testament, in the,
in the midst of Israel, so Jesus was in the
midst of humanity, God, uh, with us.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Char, anything to add? I mean, it's commonly believed that
this prophecy in Isaiah 2 has a both a near
and a far application to it. And so some have speculated,
some biblical commentators have speculated.
That there literally was a child named Emmanuel that is born,
because what's being talked about here is, um, the, um,
(13:28):
I think it's the Assyrian army, and the way that
they are besieging Jerusalem. And there's questions that the king
has of like, when's this going to end? What's happening?
And he's seeking all these false prophets, but Isaiah is
sent to him with this message about God's deliverance. And
so he says, this is going to be the sign
that this is actually going to happen. And so,
Some believe that this literally happened in King Ahaz's day.
(13:48):
There was a child named Emmanuel was born, and before
he was even weaned, the army had dispersed and gone
back to Assyria. But we understand that there is a
secondary fulfillment of this, and this is speaking of something
that is to come, that there will be literally God
will be with us.
And he will manifest himself. And of course, Isaiah's whole
(14:11):
prophecy is concerned with, you know, as Justin said, the
righteous branch, uh, the servant of Yahweh, who is going
to perform the second exodus to deliver Israel from judgment
and from exile. And so, yeah, so that could be
another reason why, yeah, we got this name Emmanuel. But
(14:32):
then when we come to Matthew, you know,
He's named Jesus. The interesting thing is, is that Matthew
says explicitly to, um, you know, when he's telling the
story of Jesus' birth, Gabriel tells Joseph, yeah, you're gonna
name him Jesus, for he will save his people from
their sins. But then Matthew comments and says, this is
(14:52):
to fulfill what the prophet Isaiah said. He shall be
called Emmanuel, God with us. And so,
You know, there's no doubt that this is the connection, right?
Like this is the right person. They are fulfilling this
prophecy in uh Isaiah. So Justin.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah, um, I think, I think that's a good point,
and I've, I've heard that reading of Isaiah as well. Uh,
this is not easy to do on the radio, but,
but I'm, I'm not convinced that's the best way to
read the passage just because
The pronouns change in that passage from singular to plural
and back to singular, and like I said, in English,
you and you, or you all, uh, we say the
(15:35):
same way, and so you won't see this in your
Bibles unless you have good footnotes, um, but it's possible
here that there's actually more than one thing going on
and
Just if I can lay out a couple of clues,
we'll give homework to our audience tonight. It's very interesting
that this is the only time in the entire book
of Isaiah that Isaiah brings along his son, and he's
explicitly told to do so, and then he's never mentioned
(15:57):
again in the passage. Uh, and so what I would
suggest is there's two things going on here. There's communication
to Ahaz.
And then there's a communication to the house of Judah, uh,
to the, the kingship as a whole, in the same way,
there are two children here, there is the one born
of a virgin who will be called Emmanuel, and there's
Isaiah's son who, before he knows right or wrong, uh,
(16:21):
Ahaz will be delivered, and I would suggest that if
you pay attention to the pronouns, you can actually isolate
those things out. Um, and so, so anyways, uh, I,
I think, uh.
I think, uh, Char makes a good point, and he's
not alone in that possibility, but, but I, I remain
(16:41):
convinced that that is a prophecy to be understood as
a prophecy, and
I would suggest instead of the principle of double fulfillment,
a near and far, a principle of double reference, that
we have two very close things happening, and it's only
with time and perspective that we can tell the difference.
Like when Jesus in Luke chapter 4 opens up to
(17:01):
Isaiah and reads a passage, close up the scroll and says,
today this is filled in your hearing, but the next
word in Isaiah.
is the word and. He stops mid-sentence. He stops before
it says, and the day of vengeance our God of
our God, because he's saying there's a, there's a gap here.
The year of Jubilee, the year of the Lord's favor,
that's happening now. The vengeance, the second coming, that happens later,
(17:23):
and the only reason we can read Isaiah that way
is because we watched Jesus read it. That's the principle
of double reference, so.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Carla, thanks for your phone call today on Pastor's Perspective.
And now we'll go to Jenny and Redlands who's listening
on the Kwave app. Hi there, Jenny, thanks for downloading
the app and thanks for calling 888-564-6173.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
You're welcome and thanks for being there for the call. Um,
so I have a friend of 28 years and
Sorry.
He has pancreatic cancer and.
With the prognosis, he was given about 4 to 6
months left to live. Uh, he grew up Catholic, but
(18:07):
he's not demonstrated a connection to his faith since I've
known him.
He declares he's, he's good, and I'm putting air quotes there,
with his relationship with God and does not seem to
want to have any in-depth conversations about it. I asked
him if he knows if he is going to heaven
when he dies.
And
(18:29):
He said he didn't think there was any reason why
he wouldn't, but he couldn't say for sure. And so
I shared that he can know for sure, and I
talked with him a bit about trusting Jesus as his
savior and that the Bible helps us clearly understand it.
And it's apart from any religious affiliation. It's the same
for all of us.
And um I want to be able to encourage him
(18:52):
to connect with God through scripture and prayer in the
time that he has left just to prepare his heart
and have a good understanding and deeper connection so he
can look forward to eternity. And I'm just wondering if
you can give some good recommendations for a scripture that
I could specifically share with him and if there were
any good book
Speaker 1 (19:13):
recommendations for someone in his circumstance that you could recommend.
OK, Char, we'll start with you.
Yeah, Jenny, um, I'm so very sorry and yeah, I
just will be thinking about you and praying for you
just for wisdom and yeah, just the right words of
comfort and encouragement.
(19:34):
Um, I, I think for me, I'm thinking about that
passage where Jesus talks about those who are rich in
this world and yet are not rich towards God.
And I think for many.
Yeah, many, you know, religious people even, right? They may
(19:54):
have um a whole list of religious activities that they
have kind of given themselves to in their life of observing,
and yet they're not rich towards God. Like
Between them and God, there really isn't much to talk about.
They haven't invested much time.
Just knowing God and allowing God to know them, if
you know what I mean. And I think for me,
(20:16):
when I, when I hear, you know, kind of, um,
his response, for me, I think that's what I would encourage.
And you believe that you are, that nothing is going
to bar you from heaven.
Like, how ready are you to meet with God?
Like, what is there between you and God? What is
(20:36):
there to talk about, to spend all eternity with God? Like,
what's that about? And so exploring that with him to
kind of stir up, I, I think, a curiosity about
what it means that he's going to meet God. And I,
and I would hope that through that really kind of
You know, to, to get down to those key things. Man,
(20:57):
Jesus is the only one who can prepare us to
meet the Father, of course, who first introduces us to
the great love of the Father, but also makes the
way clear that we can be freed from our guilt
and our sin and can become children of God who
have that, you know, um, familial, um, relationship. And, you know,
(21:22):
it's Paul says that
The spirit that cries out in such an intimate way,
Father Abba, right? And so I, I think for me if,
if this was the situation I was in, that's where
I would want to try to lead my friend in,
in those kind of deeper questions about preparing to meet
with the Lord. Justin, what would you add?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Yeah, um, I, I think, uh, apart from the scriptures,
and I have a few in mind, um, the Bible
over and over again recognizes that God Himself plays a
part in revealing Himself, even through His word. And so,
you know, when Jesus is with the disciples at the
(22:06):
end of the Gospel of Luke after his resurrection.
It says that he opened their minds to understand the scriptures,
and Paul repeatedly prays that his churches would have the
eyes of their hearts enlightened, and the psalmist prays, uh,
open my eyes so that I might behold wonders in
your word.
And so I would encourage you to to begin by
(22:28):
praying that God would do that, that not only would
you bring his word that's faithful and true and there's
a light in the darkness, but also that God would
open his eyes and his ears and his heart, uh,
to see what he's never seen before in his word. Um,
but the two passages that came to mind, both of
them from the apostle John, are in John chapter 11, uh,
(22:51):
when Jesus, uh, goes to the funeral of Lazarus and
You know, not only does he raise the dead there,
but I'm thinking particularly of his conversations with Mary and
Martha and his disciples.
Um, I think it's important, um, it's, I think it's
important that your friend wrestles with who Jesus says he is,
(23:11):
and there's something very significant when Jesus looks in the
eyes of a weeping woman who just lost her brother
and says, I am the resurrection and the life. If
anyone believes in me, even though he dies, he shall live. I,
I think your friend needs to, to take that claim and,
and do something with it.
But also you mentioned the way that you described where
(23:33):
he is made me think of the word of assurance. He, he's,
he's not sure, you know, and I always think that the,
the word of God can do the heavy lifting, and
so we should turn to passages that address the problems
our friends and our family have and John chapter one.
Uh, is embedded in a book where John's whole purpose
is saying, I write these things so that you may
(23:55):
know that in Jesus Christ you have eternal life. It's
a book about assurance, and John chapter one is especially
important because John challenges those who would say, I don't
need a savior. He says, if you say that you
have no sin.
If you say that you are without sin, he challenges
all of these things, and as uh in contrast to that,
(24:18):
he says, but if we confess our sins.
God is faithful and just to forgive us and to
cleanse us of all unrighteousness, and by the time you
get to chapter 2 verse 2, which is where this
section ends, he presents Jesus Christ as the mediator, as
our advocate, as our propitiation, who saves us from our sins, um,
(24:38):
and so it doesn't just say, uh, how can you know,
it says, who you know is significant, and it points
to Jesus. And so John chapter 11.
And John 1:1 or maybe John 1:5 all the way through, uh,
chapter 2, verse two, I think both of those passages
would be, would be, um, encouraging and, and, uh, insightful
(25:02):
to you and your friend.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
What do you think, Jenny?
That's really great, thank you. And I will say too,
I wholeheartedly agree that the first prayer is that, you know,
God reveals
Speaker 2 (25:16):
these
Speaker 1 (25:16):
things
Speaker 2 (25:16):
to
Speaker 1 (25:16):
him. So I just thank you so much for that.
And um can I just ask to follow up,
Speaker 2 (25:23):
do you know of any um maybe special books that
have been written to people who are thinking through the
end of their life like this that could
Speaker 1 (25:31):
be something that would be a
comfort to him?
Can you guys think of anything?
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Yeah, I don't know one on preparing for death, but
I keep thinking of Timothy Keller's walking with God Through suffering. Um,
you know, he, he deals with the whole concept of suffering,
but it's not just doctrinal, it's not just philosophical, it's
also very devotional, personal, applicational, um, and, and it comes
(25:59):
at it from a bunch of different angles, and so
I think that would be a very good recommendation.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Yeah, I was thinking of Tim Keller as well. He actually, um,
I think this is.
Um, produced, um, uh, March 3rd, 2020. It's a How
to Find God three book, uh, box set on birth,
on marriage, on death. And so I would highly recommend
that as well. And I know that in Tim's final years,
(26:24):
he wrote a lot on death and the hope that
we have in Jesus.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
OK, excellent. I really, yeah, in fact, he, he died
of pancreatic cancer a few years ago.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah, right, yeah,
Speaker 2 (26:37):
OK,
Speaker 1 (26:38):
thank you so
much, and Jenny, if I can also, uh, give you
the phone number for the chapel store at Calvary Chapel,
Costa Mesa because you can speak to one of the, uh,
customer service reps there, and, uh, they know every book that.
Ever been written. OK, maybe not everyone, but a lot
of them, so I'm sure that they could find something
in their database or whatever. 714-540-2941 is their number. They're
(27:03):
here on the campus of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, 714-540-2941.
All right, Jenny, thanks for calling us today on Pastor's Perspective. Oh,
really quick, what is your friend's first name?
Jim, Jim, all right, so if everyone listening and watching
can keep Jenny in prayer for wisdom and guidance as
she speaks with her friend Jim and also, uh, pray
(27:23):
for Jim as well. Here's a question that was sent
in online before we, uh, go to the break. It's
from Robert Nduarte who asks, why does God Almighty choose
eternal punishment for non-believers instead of punishment that's less than eternal?
What do you say, Justin?
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah, um, I think it's a, it's a, it's a
good question. Um, I think first we, we need to
recognize that, um,
That scripture does seem to lay out the eternal significance
of our choices and eternal consequence. And so Jesus contrasts
those who will go into everlasting life, and those who
(28:04):
would go into everlasting torment, and by mentioning them in
the same breath, one is as long as the other
and the other as long as the first, and so
I think this is something that scripture is uh relatively
clear on.
In in terms of why I think, uh, the significance
is found in the reality of what sin is. Human
(28:26):
beings and God are not equal. It's, it's not like, uh, mistreating, uh,
or misrepresenting a friend or a family member or a
corporation or a pastor or a local church. God is
our creator. Uh, he made us, he is benevolent and good.
(28:46):
Uh, his rules, his laws are for our good, uh,
and so they're not arbitrary, um, and so I think
we have to sit and recognize and, and feel the
weight of the significance to rebel against God, to stand
against him, um, but also.
(29:06):
I've always resonated with what CS Lewis says, uh, in
the Problem of pain. He closes that book by just saying, what,
what are you asking God to do, to stand in
the way of sinners and, and to try and seek
a way, a path so that they can avoid this, to,
to offer his own body in, in place of this,
(29:27):
he's done that.
Uh, he's, he's given this great offer of forgiveness, done
everything required so that we can be fully restored into
relationship with him. To refuse that to some, some degree
is just to give people a choice and take them seriously.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
All right, Richard, thanks for, or Robert, thanks for sending
in your question. We'll see if Char wants to add
anything when we come back from the break here on
Pastor's Perspective. Phone lines open for another 30 minutes at 888-564-6173, 888-564-6173.
(30:17):
We're back on Pastor's Perspective. The number to call is 888-564-6173.
I'm Brian Perez here with Char Broderson, the lead pastor
of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, and Justin Thomas, the president
of the Calvary Chapel Bible College in Bradenton, Florida. Right
before the break, we were reading or answering a question
that Robert sent in. Why does God Almighty choose eternal
(30:39):
punishment for non-believers instead of punishment that's less than eternal?
We heard what Justin had to say. Char, your turn.
Yeah, I think when we think about like, we, we
can't really talk about eternal punishment without talking about God's
eternal kingdom because it's basically all of creation is heading
to one of two ends, right? And either it is
(31:02):
life in God's kingdom, which Paul tells us is righteousness,
is peace, it's joy, just the way that the prophets
describe the new creation and all that God desires to
do for humanity. I mean, like,
That's what we are given, and then the other choice
is the antithesis of that. It is outside of the
(31:23):
eternal kingdom of God. And so, if you reject
God and His eternal kingdom, what are you choosing? An
eternity apart from that. So I think we sometimes we
make this a little bit more complicated. I appreciated what
Justin was saying too, like, you know,
Yes, is there punishment in scripture? Clearly there is, but
(31:44):
God does not punish people by sending them to hell.
Everyone is headed towards destruction and judgment. That is the
end of all people, and God has come in the
person of Jesus Christ to bring us back under his
reign and into this partnership with him. He is
(32:04):
Saved us and offers us salvation. And, and so I do,
I appreciate Louis's words there and I was thinking about
them as well. Like, what are we asking then? Beyond that,
God has done everything possible that we would not receive
this judgment and this punishment.
Justin
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Yeah, I just thought of the closing line of that passage,
and it's so powerful. He says, all this mercy, and
yet hell exists.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah.
Very good. Robert, thank you for sending in your question
on the pastor's perspective page at Kwave.com, which you can
easily get to if you scan the QR code if
you're watching us on Facebook, YouTube, or Instagram. 888-564-6173. That's
the number to call if you want to ask the
guys in person. Here is Darlene, who's watching us on
(32:53):
YouTube in Pomona. Hi there, Darlene, thanks for calling in today.
Hi, uh, first of all, my question, it has, uh,
has nothing to do with my faith. Um, I still
believe Jesus Christ is a Messiah. He is the one
we go for, go towards to, um, uh, forgive our
sins so we can live in eternity with God. But
(33:16):
I do struggle with certain passages. So that's, I just
wanted to bring that this is not a make or
break for my faith, um, uh, Ezra chapter.
Chapter 10 talks about when the Israelite nation comes back
and they have these strange wives and they have to
um get right with God, so they have to divorce them.
And um just two things I was wondering if you
(33:38):
could give me some insight because this whole chapter really
kind of, I struggled with it. Um, we're having a
women's Bible study, so I just want to get some
insight on it. It's
And the people are many. Uh, in verse 11, it
talks about how they had to stand outside in the rain.
So in order to not have people stand outside in
the rain, you know, let's kind of hurry this up.
(34:00):
That kind of it's like the impression that I got. And, um,
second of all, what, what, um, what, what were the
wives and the children given? What type of compensation doesn't
really mention.
And I know Pastor Chuck has always say where God
is silent, so should we, but maybe I missed something
in reading this, and uh yeah, so.
(34:23):
Yeah, insight. That's a great question, and I love, I
love what you said. I, I think that that's the
right thing, right? We have faith in Jesus. We believe, um,
all that God has said in and through the person
of Jesus Christ. And yet there's a lot of things
in scripture that are confusing, right? And these are the
things that we get to wrestle over and and question. And, um,
(34:45):
you know, we're reading a book that is
ancient, and it wasn't even written in our language and
didn't even have our culture in mind when it was written.
So there's a lot of confusing things, and especially if
we don't know the broader context of what's going on.
And so, you know, for anybody that turns to Ezra
is like, OK, God says here that you need to
divorce your wife in order to be right with them.
(35:07):
That sounds like the opposite of what I read back
in Exodus, you know, so, yeah, there's some confusion here.
So what's going on is, uh, you know, let's, let's
fast forward, uh, excuse me, let's rewind back, uh, before
the exile.
Right, God had warned Israel that if they intermarried with
the nations around them, that they would be influenced and
(35:31):
led away to worship other gods. Now, the interesting thing is,
is that King Solomon is kind of the leader in
this work. He marries
Foreign wives, and he goes so far to even set up,
you know, temples to the goddess Ashara, right, from the
Sidonians and, and he introduces idolatry into Israel. And so
(35:54):
the rest of the story of Israel leading up to
the judgment.
Right, of, of the Babylonian exile, the Syrian exile. All
of this is, you know, basically because King Salman opened
the gate to lead them away. But I think key
to that is his mingling with foreign women, foreign nations
that leads into idolatry.
(36:15):
And so what's happening here in Ezra is that people
have come back from exile, they're in the land. This
is like new creation, renewal, a start over, right? We
can rebuild, we can take back the covenant, we can
be the people of God and fulfill the purposes of God,
(36:35):
and right out the gate, here they are, they're intermarrying
with foreign women again. And so, you know, if you
were Ezra, you'd be like,
Well, I mean, it tells us, right? Is it Ezra
that's ripping out his hair? And I think Jeremiah's or
Nehemiah is ripping out other people's hair, right? It's like
the responses are like, what are you doing? Oh my gosh, like,
(36:56):
we're just repeating the same story again. So that's what's
going on in this passage, and that's why these wives
are to be
divorced and removed. And I actually believe that what God
is looking for is what he instructed with Moses, right?
When the Israelites divorced, they gave a legitimate certificate of divorce, uh,
(37:22):
that would set the wife up so that she would
not be bereaved of all support and
You know, kind of her Social Security at that time. Uh, so,
I believe that they were being called by Ezra, who
is a Levite, to follow through with the law to
do what is just, to do what is right towards
their wives and their children. And I actually believe that
(37:42):
later in the prophets, when we're talking, um, um, I'm
trying to remember right now who the prophet is, it's
talking about how God hates divorce because it adds violence, um,
Justin, help me here, uh, Malachi. Yeah, it's Malachi. I'm
pretty sure it's Malachi. Yeah, I think I actually believe
that Malachi is responding to this issue, is that the
(38:04):
Israelites have actually gone too far, and they have put
out the women and the children in such a way
to expose them. And so this really is this balancing
act like, OK, how do we
Do what God is asking us to do, not intermingle,
divorce our wives righteously. And this is actually referenced even
in the New Testament. Joseph is going to uh put
(38:26):
away Mary, and he's gonna do it righteously, according to
the law, right? How do we do this in a
way that honors God, that's just, that's right, but also
doesn't expose them, doesn't just leave them out to dry.
And so this is a really sticky situation that they
have found themselves in. Justin. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Yeah, well, I think we should recognize that that's the
nature of sin, right? Sin makes messes, and, uh, and
it obvious, or I mean, just think of the very
first sin, they, they leave the garden and the way
back to the garden, flaming sword. There's no going backwards.
They've got to figure out a way to go forwards,
and sometimes that's how it is with our sin. Um,
but I think it's really important that we remember, uh,
(39:06):
that we are not Israel.
Um, and so it's interesting that in 1 Corinthians chapter 7,
Paul addresses believers who are married to nonbelievers, and he
gives a very different, uh, piece of advice. He specifically says,
if your unbelieving husband will stay with you, great, stay
(39:27):
with him. If, if not, then you lose the opportunity
to reach him evangelistically, and what about your kids? Is
that's a paraphrase of what he says.
But he basically says you're, you're not in an unholy
marriage just because you're married to a non-believer, but that's
different than Israel. And if you read the, uh, the
(39:48):
Old Testament law as a whole, there's a lot of
severity and extremity in the laws because of what Israel is,
you know, they.
The question that the book of Leviticus is trying to
answer is how can a holy God dwell in the
midst of a sinful people, and the answer is with
a lot of care and attention to detail. I mean that's,
that's really what's going on, and so Israel's calling is unique,
(40:11):
their law is unique, uh, and once Jesus comes, he
fulfills that law, and we're not on the same place,
so we need to remember that Ezra is for us,
but it's not written to us.
And we can't just go, OK, Ezra commanded this, so
this is how we should live today. No, we have
very clear instruction in the New Testament of how we're
to respond to these things because we are part of
the new covenant and not the old covenant, and so
(40:34):
I think it's important to keep that in mind, but
I have no problem recognizing, wow, the Old Testament law
is severe.
Um, and it's not because God is severe in the
Old Testament and soft in the New Testament, it's because
the unique calling of Israel in the context of being
brought out from Egypt and in the midst of Canaan
(40:54):
and and still trying to uh represent God is so, uh,
so significant that, yeah, consequences are severe.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Darlene, what do you think of the answers? Oh, thank you. I, it, it, um,
clears up a lot.
I appreciate it and I appreciate all that you, um,
that you men do and the ladies who are on
as well as far as explaining scripture. Yeah, thank you,
darling so much. Thank you for calling in today on
Pastor's Perspective. 888-564-6173 is the number Darlene called, and you
(41:31):
can call as well, 888-564-6173. Here's one that was sent
in online on the Pastor's Perspective Facebook using Messenger. Chantal
from Ontario writes, I'm looking.
For some biblical guidance regarding a recent conflict with my mom.
She accused me of something completely out of my character
involving my brother, who has struggled with addiction for many years.
(41:53):
It was very hurtful and led to a serious fight.
She's been renting a room in my home but is
now moving out, something she had been considering even before.
The truth is, we've never had a close relationship. Our
personalities are very different, and she never really built that
mother-daughter bond with me.
I've accepted that she may never be able to love
(42:13):
me in the way I've wanted or needed, but the
situation has still been stressful and painful. I want to
show grace while also protecting my peace, says Chantal, and
I don't want this to harden my heart. Do you
have any scriptures, biblical stories, or pastoral advice that can
help me stay grounded, trust God through this, and heal
(42:34):
from these mother wounds in a healthy way? Justin, what
do you tell Chantelle?
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Yeah, I mean there's a lot of pieces here, but
I think um we need to recognize that uh forgiveness
is one directional, but reconciliation takes two people. And so
the Bible regularly and consistently calls us to forgiveness, and
when we are sinned against, to avoid bitterness. Uh, and
(43:01):
so we always need to be able to do that part,
but reconciliation.
That actually requires both parties to move. It requires like-mindedness
on what happened, to agree on what happened, it, it
requires the rebuilding of trust, and that requires both patience and, uh,
and boundaries and all of these things. And so what
(43:23):
I think um is helpful here is to be encouraged
by the command that Paul gives in Romans. He tells
the Roman Church, as much as it is possible with you,
be at peace with all men.
And, and I'll be the first to admit that, uh,
that we have a tendency either to do much less
that is impossible or way beyond and above what is
(43:46):
possible in terms of feeling like we've done our part.
Some of us are prone to go, you know what,
I've done enough way too early, and there really is
more that we can do, and there are other times
where people
Uh, feel like if they just go above and beyond
and do everything, then the person has to respond, and
so they keep working and pushing and pushing and pushing.
(44:08):
So it's not an easy thing to go, OK, have
I done as much as is possible with me? But I,
I do want to point out that Paul's recognition is
that's all that's required of us. We are to be
a people of peace, but the Bible recognizes that there
will be people who are opposed to peace, people who
continue to choose hostility.
Uh, in fact, Jesus warns of us casting pearls before swine,
(44:31):
of doing things that aren't worthwhile because there's no room
left for a positive reception, and so, um, regardless though, I,
I just wanna encourage you, and it sounds like you're
always already on this track.
We're called to honor our father and mother, we're called
to respect our parents, and frankly, we're called to love
(44:51):
our enemies, and so there's not really a posture here
that removes you from attempting to do those things in
your own life, but, but it sounds like, at least
in this season in this time, moving out is, is good.
It's a loss, it's painful, and I hear even in
the story you've told, you, you love your mother.
Uh, and that's where this pain and this loss comes from.
(45:14):
Maybe not the stress, the stress is everything else, but, uh, but.
What's important is to continue to affirm those things, affirm
that respect, and be open to the opportunity and the
possibility of reconciliation. Again, there's a part you can't do,
and you don't have to do, uh, you don't have
(45:34):
to pretend like nothing's wrong. It, it has to come
from both sides, um, but you do have to remain
open to that, and I think it's important to remember
that the word never, whenever we find it in our vocabulary,
is an expression of unbelief.
Right? It, it's, it draws a line in the sand
and says, I will never forgive, I will never trust
them again. I will never let our words be few.
(45:58):
God is in heaven, we're on earth. God has the
ministry of reconciliation. He does miracles, so we should stay open,
but we don't have to be, uh, unrealistic.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Chart, what would you add?
Oh man, yeah, I
You know, family dynamics are, it's just such an interesting thing. I,
I think years ago, you know, I, I marveled, my dad,
his story is like really, really complex in his childhood,
his upbringing and
Um, I've just marveled at him. He's been such a
(46:30):
good dad, um, such a present, supportive father, and, and
my dad actually didn't have that. Um, he has a
great relationship with both of his parents now, but, uh,
when he was, yeah, 6 years old, um, his dad left,
his mom and his 3 sisters to fend for themselves
in LA.
And my dad just kind of talks. He's, he shared
(46:50):
with me a little bit about that. I just think about, man,
like all the things that he had to overcome and
that he's kind of worked through and, and I just
kind of marvel at the, the person that he has become. But,
but I never forget like where he's come from. And
so I, I bring all that up just because of
like the systemic brokenness, right? That this is just a
result of, right? The broken relationship, the coldness and in
(47:12):
their relationship, I can only imagine probably comes from, you know,
generations of hurt and
And probably similar dynamics, and, and I think
Like for me, I think just the, the more I
grow as a human, as a follower of Jesus, it
is just the desire to just kind of empathize and
just imagine, OK, like what, you know, what is it
(47:32):
like to be this person, you know, and, and why
do they do the things that they do. And I
think sometimes like we can only kind of look at
the situation, but to, to kind of think like, man,
what brought them here? Like, what makes them react in
this way, you know.
And, and I know for me in my heart, it's
made me a much more sympathetic, empathetic and compassionate person,
(47:55):
and has really driven me to prayer.
Right? Like, OK, and I believe, you know, behind all
of this are just these deep, deep father wounds, right? Like,
we don't know that we have a Father in the
heavens who knows us completely, loves us and accepts us
as we are broken and sinful and twisted and all these,
(48:16):
and yet he loves us. Like, and, and I just
desire for these types of people who have this kind
of brokenness that seeps out kind of on everyone around them.
To experience that deep, deep healing, transformative love of God.
And so I think that that's what I would just, um,
Yeah, encourage you, Chantelle, just to lean into the deep
(48:40):
love of God. You have a Father in the heavens
who loves you more than the love that you are
looking for from your mother, right? More than you can
possibly imagine, and that you would find all that you're
looking for and that you can't find in your mother,
that you would find that, uh, in the Father that
Jesus has revealed to us. And I think also, as
(49:01):
Justin was saying, you know, to keep your heart soft.
That you would just put yourself in your mother's shoes and, and,
and just see how she also needs the deep healing,
transformative love of the father to be revealed in her life.
And so to pray to that end.
Chantal, thanks for sending in your question on the pastor's
perspective Facebook Messenger. Uh, here's another one that was sent
(49:24):
in that same way. It's from Cathy and Paul who ask,
for people who say, I don't want to go to heaven,
heaven sounds boring. Will they be surprised that they can't
do whatever they want in hell? This sounds like a
riveting conversation.
Um, yeah, I mean, I think just when anybody talks
like this or things like this, I just feel like
(49:45):
you've been watching Looney Tunes way too long, you know, like,
have you considered what the scriptures, uh, actually in, in
Christian theology actually tells us about the kingdom of God
and what is in store. And unfortunately, we've relegated all
this to, you know, sitting on clouds, playing harps, wearing
all white, and just
You know, singing a mantra 24/7 for all of eternity. When, man,
(50:09):
like the kingdom of heaven and all that God has
in store for us. Paul says, eye has not seen,
ear has not heard, it hasn't even entered into our imagination.
But even the Spirit of God is beginning to reveal
to us that are gods, what that will be like.
And we see it manifest.
in Jesus, in his healing power and his authoritative teaching,
(50:31):
and the vision that he cast for the way that
we would live under his reign, and the way that
we love and care and serve for one another, the
way that we make peace um in our communities, right?
This is all that is bound up in the kingdom
of God. And so, man, it's like, do you love life?
Do you love uh the
beauty of the world around you. Do you love, you know,
(50:52):
your relationships with your family members? Do you like good food?
Do you enjoy smells and tastes and all these things? Well,
guess what? The kingdom of heaven is going to be that,
like times 1 trillion, right? Like what God has waiting
for us is a renewed creation, a new world without sin, brokenness,
and evil. I can't imagine.
(51:15):
That there is a human being on this planet that
doesn't actually want that. But I do think that there's
this great deception that, right, like, man, heaven's just going
to be so boring. Like we, hell's going to be better.
It's just this like, you know, listen to too much
AC DC or something. I don't know. So.
I'm done. Justin, yeah,
Speaker 2 (51:35):
yeah, no, I, I think, I think that's good. I think, uh,
you know, there's a
There's a self-interested misunderstanding here that that basically sees the
purpose of heaven is to fulfill all of my pleasures
and dreams, you know, and in a sense, it's not wrong,
you know, going back to the famous catechism, what is
(51:57):
the chief end of man?
To love or to glorify God and enjoy him forever,
you know, if human beings were really created for fellowship
with God, if that's where we find our deepest purpose,
our greatest comfort, uh, and, and all of the meaning, uh,
you know, then maybe trying to think of the fringe.
(52:19):
Benefits of heaven, like the duration of time that you'll
be there or uh or these types of things, maybe
that's a misunderstanding and, and I would suggest that that's
not really a dead end question that needs to be answered. You,
you just need to go, OK, well let's let's put
that on hold and let's talk about who God is. Let's,
let's have a conversation about.
(52:41):
About who God is, because the truth is, the vision
of heaven at the end of Revelation is full of
a thing, a lot of no's. There's no water, there's
no sun, there's no, most of the things we're told
about heaven are, are non-things, uh, but the one that
defines it, and the one that defines the Christian view
of heaven is that Jesus dwells in the midst of
(53:02):
his people, and they will be with him forever.
Uh, that is the aspiration, that is the desire, that
is the longing that we express when we say, come
Lord Jesus, uh, that is the comfort, uh, not just
that we won't cry anymore, but that God Himself will
wipe away our tears. Um, and so if you don't,
if you don't understand that, of, of course it's not
going to make sense, and yeah, there's all of these, uh,
(53:25):
hypotheticals in Hollywood that, that get in the way of
these things as well, but
But to some degree, it's, it's the wrong question. It's,
let's not talk about, uh, what eternity looks like until
we talk about the eternal one. Let's, let's just start
there and have that conversation first.
Speaker 1 (53:41):
I was at a wedding, uh, last weekend for my
old roommate, and, uh, I was asked to do the
prayer over the meal. And so there's a lot of,
you know, non-Christians. There are people who just, you know,
probably no religious affiliation.
And so, you know, praying at those types of things
sometimes is just interesting, right? Like I'm asking all these
people that, you know, they just assume that, you know,
we're all going to pray to this individual called Jesus.
(54:03):
So I just started by saying like, hey, like all
of this goodness that we're experiencing here and it's just
this like amazing sunset, you know, everybody's dressed incredibly, the
food's immaculate, right? Like everything's amazing. So it's like, we
believe that all of this goodness has a source. I
believe it comes from somewhere.
And his name is Jesus. Like, so like you're saying, Justin,
(54:24):
like imagine what this being is like.
The source of all life and all goodness. That's who
we're calling upon. That's who we are recognizing and thinking
in this moment. And so, yeah, like when we think about, like, man,
who made all this stuff, who gave us his life, uh,
he's the source of all of this goodness. That's what
(54:44):
the kingdom of heaven really is all about. Yeah.
Kathy and Paul, thank you for sending in your question
on the Pastor's Perspective Facebook page, and that is all
the time we have on today's episode of the program.
Thank you so much for calling in and submitting your questions.
If you couldn't get through today, we will be back
tomorrow between 3 and 4 p.m. Pacific time. If you
want to submit your question online, you can do that
(55:07):
on either the uh pastor's perspective Facebook.
Messenger, or on the Pastor's Perspective Instagram, you can DM
us there, or if you're watching on Facebook, YouTube or Instagram,
scan that QR code, that'll take you to the pastor's
perspective page at Kwave.com, where you can submit the form
and maybe, just maybe, we'll read it next time we're here.
(55:27):
But if you need an answer right away, call in
when we are here, 888-564.
617-3. Write down that number, put it in your phone
so that when that question comes up, or maybe you're
talking to a total stranger, and they ask you a
question that you can't answer, just say, hey, call my
friends at Pastor's Perspective, 888-564-6173. For Char Broderson and Justin Thomas,
(55:49):
I'm Brian Perez, and we'll talk to you next time
here on Pastor's Perspective.
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