Deliver Messages that Matter: How to Improve Your Communication - Part 2

Whether communication comes naturally to you or not, it’s a skill that you can grow and improve at. In this episode, Alex and Ben continue their conversation on the fundamentals of great communication by breaking down 5 more actions you can take to improve at communicating. They also talk about some of the communicators they admire and lessons they’ve learned from watching them. 

Information isn’t the gap between failure and success—action is. Path for Growth’s 1-on-1 coaching helps you create a plan and execute on what matters most for your business. Apply today at pathforgrowth.com/coaching.

Episode Recap:

• When the unexpected happens, you can fall back on the fundamentals of strong communication 
• To improve as a communicator, focus on these actions 
• 3. Find your voice and style
• Pay attention to the communication styles of people you admire 
• 4. Identify your intent
• Think about your message as an answer to “why” or “how” questions 
• 5. Practice the way you plan to perform 
• 6. Communicate with people, not at people
• 7. Evaluate and improve
• Communication is a skill, and that means it’s something you can grow 

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Episode Transcript

Alex Judd (00:02):
Okay. So I wanna share this story because I think
it connects to everything wetalked about in our first
episode on communication. Ithink it's really gonna set us
up for what we're about to talkto you today and why simplicity
is so helpful whenever you'replaying the role of
communicator. So I was the emceefor a 4,000 person event that we
did for Entre Leadership calledSummit, and there were just
amazing speakers. Obviously,Dave Ramsey was speaking.

(00:26):
John Maxwell, I think, was atthis one. Henry Cloud was at
this one. Peyton Manning. Thelineup was just bonkers. And two
of the speakers, one was, SarahBlakely, first ever self made
female billionaire with a b, andthen Jesse Itzler, who's her
husband.
And Jesse is the founder ofNetJets. He's an ultra runner. I
I would honestly just say thebest biomarker for Jesse is,

(00:48):
like, genuine character. Like,the guy is a wild man, and just
has such a powerful message. Sothe two of them were speaking as
well, and they're a husband andwife couple, but they were
speaking separately.
And so Jesse literally, I think,showed up fifteen minutes before
he's about to be on stage. Andand, you know, the audience is

(01:09):
all eating lunch at this time.He shows up in the green room,
and I'll never forget. He showsup, and his his hair is, like,
everywhere, and he's, like,dripping. He's wet.
And and Sharon Ramsey, like,kinda walks up and introduces
herself to him. This is Dave'swife, and she says, well, you're
all wet, honey. And and he says,I was just out surfing. And it's
like, he literally came fromsurfing to give a talk to 4,000

(01:31):
people. Right?
Unique style, he has about him.And so we talk for a little bit,
then we go, and I'm gonnaintroduce him. And and I get the
energy hype cause I know he'sgonna come in energetic, give
his bio and everything. And andthen he comes running on the
stage all energetic, and he'soff into the races. So Jesse
has, I don't know, it's probablylike eighty five to ninety

(01:52):
minutes of talk time that he'sgonna be operating on.
Meanwhile, I go back to theGreen Room, and I'm just kinda
getting prepared to then, comeon after Jesse to introduce his
wife, Sarah. And I know thatSarah's you know, it's gonna be
a very, like, standard bio inthe minute by minute. It was
gonna be a pretty quickintroduction, and then I was
just gonna bring her on. SoSarah's in the green room as

(02:13):
well, and, kind of everyone'sjust kinda getting prepared for
where we're at in the event. Andwe get a message.
So this is on a different floorthan where the stage is. We get
a message, I think, like, 50 inthat the producers backstage are
are like, hey. It's kind of likehe's wrapping up. He technically

(02:33):
has thirty or thirty five moreminutes left, but it kind of
feels like he's, like, landingthis plane. And so maybe y'all
should bring Alex down here,like, just in case.
And so we're like, okay. Andwe're, like, kinda hustled down
the stairs. And then literally,I get, you know, backstage and
she's like, thank you all somuch. This is amazing. Goodbye.

(02:56):
And, like, and everyone'sclapping and everything. And I'm
like, oh my gosh. I'm like,Sarah is not even down here
right now. She's upstairs still.And so I'm like, oh gosh, what
is this gonna be like?
And they literally likebasically like pushed me out
there and Jesse hands me likehis notebook, his microphone and
everything as he's walkingupstairs. Like, what am I

(03:17):
supposed to do with this? Thisisn't part of the gig. Right?
Like, wasn't supposed to dothat.
And and meanwhile, I look overand they're like, we're gonna
have to get the mic on Sarah.And so, like, literally, the
producer just looks at me andliterally goes, like, I don't
know what to tell you. And he'sjust like, just vamp. Just go.
And I'm like, okay.
So I need to figure outsomething to stay here. And it's

(03:37):
like in moments like that whereyou are expected to communicate
and you're like but it's nothinglike what you expected, What do
you do? That's when simplicityis so helpful. Mhmm. You gotta
lean into your fundamentals.
You gotta know, man, now's thetime where I gotta read the
energy of the room. I've gottabe able to tell a great story.
I've gotta maybe be able toengage the audience and ask them
questions. Because if someonetold you just generally, hey,

(04:00):
you've got one person in frontof you and I need you to fill
five minutes in a way that'sengaging, you would be able to
do that. And what's crazy isthat 4,000 actually doesn't
change too much about that.
You just have to have thecomposure of yourself. So so I
start going on this story andthen, like, applying some of the
things that I heard Sarah say tothings. Meanwhile, thankfully,

(04:22):
I'm literally looking out andpeople are taking notes on what
I'm saying. Like, wow, this isgoing pretty well. My first ever
talk at an Entre LeadershipSummit.
This is great. Meanwhile, I'mlooking over and they're putting
Sarah's mic on her and liketrying to get her all situated
and everything. Then likeliterally, I I do have the
audience do a hand raise thingwhich is like, how many of you
feel like you're accidentalCEOs? And then give those people

(04:43):
a word of encouragement and Isay, well, our next speaker is
gonna be great for that. Then Ilist her bio and I mean,
probably six or seven minutesin, I look over, I'm like, they
better have it now.
And they look at me and theygive me a thumbs up and I say,
ladies and gentlemen, SarahBlakely. She comes running out.
And, oh, man, I I still getnervous telling that story. But,

(05:04):
again, the reason why we startthis episode this way is because
communication is a complexactivity. Mhmm.
And sometimes it's that you needto give a prepared talk, but
sometimes as a leader, there'stimes where you didn't even
expect you were gonna have to doit. You just need to be able to
communicate. Mhmm. And it's inthose times where the
fundamentals that we're talkingabout, certainly in the last
episode, but also in this one,are are gonna be really, really

(05:27):
valuable and really helpful.

Ben Loy (05:28):
Yeah. That I'm I'm gonna butcher the story, so I'm
gonna just spare the details andjust do a flyover, but that
makes me think of, like, ErwinMcManus. And I think one of the
he shares a story of, like, oneof the first times that he ever
shared in front of a largeaudience. I mean, I think it's,
like, tens of thousands ofpeople and it

Alex Judd (05:45):
was And he is a brilliant communicator.

Ben Loy (05:47):
He's so good. Yeah. But it was he he shares a story and
if, man, I'll have to find aclip or something we can maybe
put in the show notes. But he,he talks about how, yeah, he he
did not ex it was an unexpectedmoment. Like, the the speaker
that they had didn't show up andhe was at this event and they
were just like, here you go.
The story he shares, I mean, hehas he he had already been

(06:10):
speaking, developed his style,knew what he wanted to talk
about. But if if you're notprepared and and haven't put in
the reps in those moments, yeah,they're just gonna ship on by,

Alex Judd (06:20):
you know. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Loy (06:22):
So the the third point on this, was like find your
voice and your style.

Alex Judd (06:28):
Mhmm.

Ben Loy (06:29):
At that point in in your your career or in your your
journey as a communicator, Didyou already have a good grasp on
what that looked like?

Alex Judd (06:37):
No. And I I I would honestly say I don't know what
our marker for good grasp is,but I am still learning what my
communication voice is. Mhmm.Right? Like, and I'm certainly
much further along than where Iwas, whatever that was five
years ago now, but I think Istill have room to grow.
I would say there were certainthings that I knew about myself.

(07:00):
I knew that, man, if I cancombine energy and
thoughtfulness, that's where I'min my sweet spot as a
communicator. I knew thataudience engagement is, like,
one of the tools that I have inmy tool belt. I I knew that
extemporaneous was part of mystyle. Those were things that I
I would use and and kind of leaninto.
But if you would go back and andlook at, you know, previous

(07:24):
videos or recordings of mecommunicating or if we were to
go back in time and listen tome, you would definitely say,
oh, he's kind of copying DaveRamsey. Right? Right? And it's
because that was like theprimary example that I had at
that time. And whenever I workedat a church before that, I was
copying the brilliantcommunicator that was the lead
pastor at that church.

(07:44):
Right? And and people wouldliterally say, oh my gosh.
You're like his mini me. Andit's like, alright. That wasn't
actually me.
That was me somewhat playing alittle bit of a character, which
certain personality typesdefinitely lean into more than
others. And so that actuallykinda ties into the actions
associated with this. But one ofthe things that we need to
remember is the bestcommunicators. What's crazy is

(08:04):
if you make a list of I did thisonce of the people that I think
are some of the most effectivecommunicators, it's like, man,
on my list, I had Tim Keller, Ihad TD Jakes. I had Brene Brown.
Oh, goodness. I I I think I hadMarie Forleo on there. She's a
brilliant communicator. I hadJohn Maxwell on there. Dave
Ramsey was on there.

(08:24):
And it's like, we were to lookat this list of communicators
that I had and then ask, what dothese people have in common in
terms of how they communicate?There is, like, very little,
like, very little they have incommon in terms of the manner in
which they communicate. Somehave more similarities than
others, but they're like youwould not look at any of them

(08:45):
and be like, oh, that person'sexactly like that person. It
doesn't work that way. Right?
And so as I was reading throughthis list, I remember Craig
Groeschel was on there too. Andand, like, I was looking at this
list, and I was like, what isbut if I was to identify one
thing they all have in common,it's like, oh, they're all just
really good at being themselves.Like, that's what they're good
at. Yeah. And so that's whatwe're really talking about here

(09:07):
is, man, the more you getconfident in who you are and
just speak as that person andteach and communicate as that
person, the more genuine andauthentic your teaching and
talking is going to be.

Ben Loy (09:19):
Yeah. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery is
what they say. But, like, whoyou're interested in isn't
necessarily it's not bad to tolook to them or to, I guess,
copy them in in some aspects.Right?

Alex Judd (09:32):
It's I I would say it's a clue. Right. Right? I I
think the principle I I like toremember is interest is an
indicator. And I would say,especially in the realm of
speaking, what I like tochallenge people on is
admiration is an indicator.
So who are the communicatorsthat you admire, that you find
yourself just captivated by andlistening to? And a lot of
times, that's an indicator ofthe type of speaker, teacher,

(09:55):
communicator you want to be.That can be really helpful to
ask yourself the question, whodo you really admire as a
communicator? And then go onestep deeper and ask, what is it
that you admire about them? So II would ask you that question.
Let's just do a a live trainingon this right now. Like, who are
the people that you areinterested in and admire as a

(10:16):
communicator?

Ben Loy (10:17):
I'd say Matt Chandler.

Alex Judd (10:18):
Okay. Big one. Brilliant pastor in Dallas.
Yeah. And

Ben Loy (10:23):
I've, like as far as speakers or communicators who I
have I have listened to, like,just the scale of content I've
listened to from a specific he'sprobably the most I've listened
to. Like, I've there was a timewhen I was in the Coast Guard
and didn't have a solid of achurch community, was moving a
lot, and it was, like, that was,like, one of the places that I
went just to hear truth. And notrecommended, obviously, like, a

(10:46):
local community is is preferred,but, I just I abs I I listened
to so many of his sermons and somuch from the village church.

Alex Judd (10:54):
And and I wanna call attention to people how how
noteworthy it is. Like, don'tdon't spend too much time on
this question. Who are youadmire most or interested in
most? You could just answer itthe way Ben just did and just
say, who do you listen to themost? Because that that's how
you'll answer that.
Because think about this. Youhave thousands, literally of
thousands of options of who youcould listen to whenever you're

(11:17):
looking for a sermon in thatseason of your life. And for
whatever reason, the one thatcaught your attention that you
didn't just come to once, butover and over and over again was
Matt Chandler. That indicatessomething. That is, like, not a
coincidence, and you should,like, really, really pay
attention to that.

Ben Loy (11:31):
Yeah. And what's so interesting is, I mean, I like I
said last episode, it wasn'tuntil recently that I was like,
oh, what is it about thecommunication style of his
communication style that I findcompelling? Like, what what what
are the frameworks and toolshe's using? What are the
patterns I see in the way thathe communicates?

Alex Judd (11:48):
Okay. So how do you answer that question? What,
like, what do you come up withwhen you think about that?

Ben Loy (11:52):
Oh, well, I mean, one of the things and he he probably
hits all of the points thatwe've already covered, but, I
mean, like, his message isalways really clear. He he's
really good at stating, like,this is the point of of my talk,
and then, like, let me elaborateon that. He's energetic. I I
think he is effective. Like, Imean, I would say he's so

(12:16):
effective that I'd never evenreally asked the question, how
is he communicating?
And I was just, like, absorbedin what he was saying. So

Alex Judd (12:24):
That's right.

Ben Loy (12:25):
I mean, I I think he checks all the boxes in that
respect. I think

Alex Judd (12:28):
One one thing I would say just to pause you there on
this, that's a principle forpeople to remember is, like, as
a communicator, I love SethGodin's line. Do you wanna be a
wandering generality or ameaningful specific? And the
thing that you you really gottaunderstand is, like, your
communication and your style isnot going to be for everyone.

Ben Loy (12:48):
Mhmm.

Alex Judd (12:49):
I think Matt would probably be on a first name
basis with him apparently now.Pastor Matt. Yeah. I think he
would be the first to say mycommunication is not for
everyone. Right?
And I know people that are like,if you think of a really
effective communicator, I'm sureyou could find someone that's
just like, I can't listen tothat guy or I can't listen to

(13:09):
that woman. I just can't do it.Right? And that's because it's
not for everyone. You're goingto double down on something
specific, but that's way betterthan trying to be everything to
all people.
Yeah.

Ben Loy (13:18):
Well, and and that goes into confidence. That's right.
That's right. Like, that's like,are you confident enough to say
that what I am sharing might notbe for everyone, but it's what I
believe and it's a truth worthsharing.

Alex Judd (13:29):
Yeah. And even the way that

Ben Loy (13:31):
I'm sharing it.

Alex Judd (13:31):
Yeah. It's like if you don't want it this
passionate, there's a bunch ofother places because he is he is
energetic is almost anunderstatement. Oh, mean, he is
his volume, it gets up there andhe if he's just deeply
emotional. Right? All of that.
I love Matt Chandler as well.Yeah. It's like there's some
people that are like, I I that'stoo much for me. And it's like,

(13:52):
okay. That's fine.
Right? But what would be such ashame is if that's who you are,
then for you to change who youare to be like, I wanna make
sure everyone likes thismessage.

Ben Loy (14:00):
Yeah. Yep. I'm gonna flip it on to you now. Yeah.

(15:45):
What Pick one of the people thatyou named and, like, what was it
about them that you that thatinterested you or that you
observed in their communicationstyle?

Alex Judd (15:55):
Oh, gosh. Do I have to pick one is what I would

Ben Loy (15:58):
say? Yeah.

Alex Judd (16:01):
Says the guy with the clock in front of me. Gosh. I I
would say John Maxwell. Like,let's park on John Maxwell. I'll
never forget.
I I saw him give a talk onpersonal growth. It was whenever
I was an employee in EntreLeadership, but it was a a
summit as well. And I'll neverforget just watching how he
just, man, like, were so leanedin. People were simultaneously

(16:26):
almost on the verge of tears to,like, there were actually people
crying in the room to justcracking up laughing. And he
just looked so relaxed andengaged.
So if I were to identify some ofthe things that he's really good
at that I really admire from acommunication perspective. The
first I would say is spontaneousconnection with the audience. I

(16:47):
and, you know, I I've listenedto a lot of his talks and
teaching on communication aswell, so I know I know he does
this. People will you know, hesays someone has asked him once,
like, so, like, what are yougonna say whenever you get out
there? And he's like, don't knowyet.
And they're like, what do meanyou don't know yet? And he's
like, I'm not out there yet. Andhe's like, I define what I'm
gonna say when I get out there,like, the minute I get out there

(17:09):
because I'm, like, reading theroom and then figuring out what
does this room need. Is it ajoke? Is it is it, you know,
encouragement?
Is it a a pause because theyjust came off something really
energetic? He's like, so so hisability to, again, be confident
enough to meet the room wherethey're at, I think is just so
good and therefore connect withhim, which connection is his
goal. Storytelling would benumber number two. And what's

(17:32):
crazy about John is, you know,it's rare that I've heard anyone
listen to a John Maxwell talkand say, I've never thought of
that before. That wasrevolutionary to me.
That's actually very rare. Moreoften, what people say is not
I've never thought of it before.It's more I've never thought of
it like that. It's never hit mequite in the heart. And what we

(17:56):
know to be true is the way topeople's action is through their
emotion.
And, man, that guy gets peopleemotionally engaged like
nobody's business. And thennumber three, people love being
around people doing what theylove. And what's so cool is that
you do a great job of leadingand communicating when you just

(18:16):
love it. Like, you love thetopic. You love the practice of
it.
You love what you're doing.People find that, like,
irresistible. And and when youwatch this guy talk, it's like
you're like, there is literallynowhere else on the planet he
would rather be right now. Hejust loves it. And what you just
find is like, oh my gosh, thisroom of 4,000 people is smiling.
Like, everyone is smiling rightnow. And because he's loving

(18:38):
this so much, everyone in theroom is loving it so much. I
just think that's so powerful.So I I would say John Maxwell
for those reasons. Maybe if wecould tag this and send this to
him, that would be a great wayto get him to come

Ben Loy (18:49):
out of the podcast. So interest is a really great
indicator. We've we'veidentified that. What are what
are some other tools that you'veidentified as great ways to
develop your voice and yourstyle?

Alex Judd (19:03):
Yeah. I mean, I would say the greatest tool is reps.
You know? I what what we're notadvocating for here is go off
into a cave somewhere and havesolitude time where you just sit
and say, what's my style? What'smy voice?
I would say pay attention to whoyou're interested in. Watch
them. Listen to them. And don'tjust listen to the message.

(19:24):
Listen to the way they give themessage, and then find reps
where you're trying to feed thatin.
And that could literally belike, hey. We have people coming
over for dinner. And at somepoint, I'm gonna tell this
story, and I'm gonna tell thisstory really well. Do not give a
speech at your dinner party iswhat I would say. But think
about good storytelling and payattention.
I mean, it's wild. Like, we allknow that person at a dinner

(19:47):
party that it's like, this is agreat story told really well.
Mhmm. And we also know thosepeople at the dinner party
that's like, that was such agreat story. It just wasn't told
well.
And then we also know the peopleat the dinner store at the
dinner party that are like, thatwasn't even a good story. Like,
what and it's like, our goal islet's be the person that has a
great story to share and we cantell it really well. That's what

(20:09):
I say. But I just reps. Right?
And and then reps plusevaluation, you're gonna find
your style, I think.

Ben Loy (20:16):
How how do you remain authentic while also learning
from other speakers?

Alex Judd (20:22):
You know, it's interesting. I feel as though
this is something that I'vethought about as it relates to
to speaking for me, I actuallygot here kinda through a
backdoor. I was thinking aboutthe topic of freedom. And when
we think about the topic offreedom, what's interesting is
in my time talking to peopleabout the topic of freedom, the
times where they feel the mostfree are often the times where

(20:44):
they also feel the most present.And I actually believe that.
And pay attention to that. Howthat applies to the context of
your talk is when were the timesin the talk that you gave that
you felt most present, that youjust you weren't trying to adopt
some other personality. Youweren't trying to impress

(21:06):
people. You know? You youweren't trying to accomplish
some side motivation orobjective.
You were just there doing whatyou were doing. And and that's I
I honestly think it's one of thereasons why stories capture
people's attention is becauseoftentimes, a communicator is
most present in storytelling.Mhmm. Because they're they're

(21:27):
literally just recountingsomething they went through.
Right?
You know, the great thing aboutstories is you really don't have
to remember anything because youwere there. Right? And so it's
just recalling the thing thatyou were actually there for.
Yeah. But what's so cool is youcan grow as a communicator to
where the same level of presenceyou feel and experience in your
storytelling, you can apply toyour content.
You can apply to the way youstare at data. You can even

(21:49):
apply it to the way you tellstories that you weren't a part
of, which is really cool becausethen, I mean, the world is your
oyster in terms of possiblecontent because it doesn't
always have to be personalexperience. You can
authentically reiterate theexperiences and learnings of
others to make a point.

Ben Loy (22:07):
It is an amazing feat. And I I honestly think that you
do this well when sharing otherpeople's stories. And most of
the communicators I look at thatI would say I look up to do the
same thing. It's like they canshare someone else's story but
still take their audience and,like, bring them into that
moment.

Alex Judd (22:27):
Well, thank you for thank you for saying that. I
think it's something that I'veworked really hard at. And and
what I would tell people is ifthat's something you wanna be
able to do, put yourself in thatposition. Mhmm. I mean, it's
honestly one of the greatestgifts, and it's why I just I I
would love for everyone toexperience this, particularly in
a in a preaching capacity.
Right? I don't I don't preachfor a living by any means, but I

(22:48):
have been asked, to teachmessages at churches before, and
I just love doing it because ofthe preparation process. If
you're teaching a message onPeter, it's so fun to, like, be
like, pretend like I'm Peter.And and Jesus is not saying this
to someone else. He's sayingthis to me.
If I'm Peter, what am I feeling?What am I thinking? What am I

(23:10):
afraid of? What am I hoping forin this moment? It's a whole
different way of looking at thebible.
But if you do that back work,man, then when you teach the
message on Peter, it's like youbring a whole level of
contextual depth to it andemotion to it that that you
can't bring if you're justsaying, like, this this is what
happened to some personsomewhere.

Ben Loy (23:32):
Yeah. I feel I feel like we're just gonna keep
calling out pastors fromredemption to

Alex Judd (23:37):
be There you go.

Ben Loy (23:38):
But, like, Jake Jake Slobotnik does this really well.
Like, he he will take a passage,and he will even tell the
audience or the congregation, belike, okay. Like, close your
eyes. Imagine you are thisperson, like, in this culture at
this time. I've heard him dothat multiple times, and it it
is extremely effective.

(23:59):
Like, not only doing thatyourself ahead of time, but even
in the moment, like, is takingthe audience and he is landing
the plane to, like, connect themdirectly with the story that
he's telling from scripture.

Alex Judd (24:13):
It's so good. My my recall in this regard isn't
isn't that good, but I'm I'm soglad you brought this up because
I remember he did a message inthe revelation series that we
were going through. And and I'llnever forget, he had this, like,
underwater illustration, whichthis is crazy. This was months
ago, and I can remember the waythat he framed his message on

(24:37):
revelation because of theillustration he used. That's the
power of illustration and story.
Right? I mean, this happened avery long time ago, and and I
just remember, like, man, youcould hear a pin drop in that
room and the way that he wove itin and out. And it was a very
complex topic. I mean, the bookof Revelation in general is a
very complex and and fraughtwith pitfalls topic as a

(24:58):
communicator.

Ben Loy (24:59):
Mhmm.

Alex Judd (24:59):
But he attached it to something that he knew people
could relate to, engage with,would find enjoyable. And I
never I'll never forget, man,leaving that Sunday. And Aspen
and I had a conversation on ourtakeaways from the points
associated with revelation thathe made, which unfortunately,
can't remember as many of thoseright now. But then we also had
an entirely separateconversation of how brilliantly

(25:22):
communicated it was. And that'sthe gift that, you know, the
hard work of preparing yourcommunication gives to your
audience is it can take allthese really complex,
challenging, maybe evenemotional issues and present
them in a way that people canactually metabolize them.

Ben Loy (26:41):
This segues into the next point, which is, identify
your intent. Like Mhmm. Tellingstories is a really great vessel
for connecting your audiencewith with your intention or or
giving message.

Alex Judd (26:54):
If that's your intent, I would say. Yeah. You
know? Because, like, some peopledon't maybe you're presenting a
message where it's like, what weneed is the information, and
you're telling me a story. It's,you know, I have known leaders
that do this.
It's like, it should have beenan email is correct, but they,
like and it was, like, basicallyjust an update, but they felt

(27:16):
this need to share a storyassociated with the update. It's
like, the information you'retrying to give me, which is what
you're actually trying toaccomplish here, that's your
actual intent, didn't require astory. All you had to do was,
like, say what you needed us todo. Right? Yeah.
You know? And so that's why Ithink it's so crucial that we
get clear about what we want toaccomplish. And there's a great

(27:36):
framework that Craig Groeschelhas that that I I find really
helpful because it simplifies iswhat do I want them to know,
what I want them to feel, andwhat do I want them to do?
Before you prepare a message,before you're about to
communicate to a group, beforeyou have a meeting, it's what do
I want them to know, What do Iwant them to feel? What do I
want them to do?
And that's just a great way oflisting your intent, and then

(27:58):
you craft your message based onyour intent.

Ben Loy (28:00):
That's just a great model to keep you accountable
to. Like, yeah, is is this storyrelevant? Or maybe the story is
relevant, but maybe some of thedetails I have in the story
don't need to be mentioned or Idon't need to be, like,
educating people on somethingwhile also trying to to share
the story. Right? Like removingdetails to get to, okay, what

(28:21):
what is the point of this story?
What is the point of thisillustration? And what do I want
to communicate through the storyto my audience? And, yeah, no
feel do is a great way to keepyourself accountable to that.

Alex Judd (28:32):
That's right. And and this is where it becomes like a
puzzle. And, man, here here'sone that I'm sharing as a
practitioner that I'm certainlygrowing in this area, but I
still have work to do. AndyStanline takes me to task in
this arena because if you everhear him talk about effective
communication, one of his firstthings that he will say very
assertively is, you have to saywithin your time frame.

(28:58):
Disrespectful.
Like, if if if you've got thirtyminutes and you and the audience
are operating on this unwrittencontract of thirty minutes, it
is disrespectful to be like, Ijust wanna share I want to share
this story so bad that I amgonna go over time. It's like
you are literally making itabout yourself at that point.

Ben Loy (29:17):
Mhmm.

Alex Judd (29:17):
Right? And if you find yourself, which I I I can
be very guilty of this, goingover oftentimes, where where are
you suffering? Sometimes it canbe a pride thing where it's
like, you think that, man,people have to hear this
information so bad that theycan't make good decisions with
their time, you have to, andyou're gonna keep them. Or it's

(29:38):
an indictment on yourpreparation. Because if you
can't get it in the time framethat you had, well, you had that
time frame.
Right? You you knew. I've gotsixty minutes to do this talk,
but you you were almostgluttonous with the content that
you had. Right? You you weren'twilling to edit in order to fit
the prescribed timeline.

(29:58):
And, man, it's it's difficultbecause you love this stuff, and
you've spent time on this stuff,and you really want people to
hear this stuff. But, heart ofaccomplishing your intent is
doing it within the boundariesthat you've been given or that
you've even established foryourself.

Ben Loy (30:15):
Mhmm. Something you mentioned recently was, like,
the one point sermon.

Alex Judd (30:19):
Mhmm.

Ben Loy (30:20):
And I think that's probably a good question to ask
is, like, maybe some of thepoints I'm trying to make here
aren't don't don't evennecessarily need to be in the
same talk. Like, maybe I couldmaybe I could prepare a talk on
the the other or the the wholeother point I'm trying to make
in this in this talk. Maybe if Ijust removed it and establish
that as as its own topic so Ican really focus on what my

(30:42):
intention is in this moment. Ifeel like that could be a really
helpful question to ask.

Alex Judd (30:47):
That's exactly right. And that's why having multiple
avenues to be able tocommunicate is really helpful.
Right? I I can definitely beguilty of that if I'm not
careful, and I've actuallyreceived feedback on this as a
communicator is I'll go a coupletimes to churches in a couple
different places around thecountry and and preach a
message. And one of the pastorsof the churches that I spoke at
one time, he gave me somefeedback on the back end because

(31:08):
I asked for it.
I was like, what feedback do youhave? He said, Alex, it feels
like you only have a coupletimes a year to preach a message
because he's like, it's likeyou're trying to take take every
spiritual truth that you'velearned in the past year and
pack it into thirty minutes. Andhe's like, he's like, I think it
would be better if you justchose one of them and, like,
taught on that one. And I waslike, oh, man. That's that's so

(31:29):
good.
Right? And that definitelyapplies to motive and intent and
all of that. But it's why, youknow, I I'm very grateful and
it's a real gift that we havethe podcast format right now. We
have our experience talks. Wehave our event talks that I'm
teaching out.
We have our growth rooms that Iget to teach at. And what I
often find myself doing now is,like, there's more that I wanna
say, and I'll say, oh, that'd bea great podcast conversation or

(31:52):
that'd be a great growth room orthat could be our twenty twenty
nine experience. Right? That wecould do that theme. Right?
But but what's so cool is thethe minute you start
communicating, you turn on acontent water hose because you
start to look at the world thatway. And then, man, the issue
will probably not be I don'thave enough content. The issue

(32:12):
will probably be I I don't haveenough opportunities to share,
which is cool.

Ben Loy (32:15):
Yeah. Opportunity. And then I like that you have
acknowledged there's adifference in the formats Yes.
Of of those opportunities. Like,now, right, like, the way what
you're sharing and the format inwhich you are sharing in a
growth room is wildly differentthan how we're talking right now
on the podcast That's or how youwould give an experience talk.

(32:36):
And I I guess as a as someonewho wants to learn and develop
as a communicator, seeing pastlike, oh, communication goes
beyond just standing at thefront of a room of any given
number of people and sharing amessage. Like, there's multiple
formats on what that looks likeand there's multiple areas and

(32:56):
even methods in which it isappropriate to share specific
things. Right?

Alex Judd (33:01):
Yes. And I mean, that's something I can
definitely grow in. Right?Sometimes I bring speaker Alex
to the podcast, and it's like,why are you yelling at us? Am I
gonna feed you?
Right? And, so understanding themedium that you're operating in,
I think I could actually grow inthat area a lot. Can I say one
more thing on intent that Ithink is really important? This

(33:21):
is something that I learnedyears ago at a training for
speakers that I just foundreally helpful. And it it
probably if we're talking aboutwhat do you want them to know,
what do you want them to feel,what do want them to do, this
probably falls under thecategory of what you want them
to know and how you orient andorganize your message.
It's helpful to think about yourmessage as an answer to

(33:41):
questions. And oftentimes now,which, yeah, I'm gonna give you
give away my my, basically, myoutline formula. I like to think
about why questions versus howquestions. These are decision
oriented messages versus actionoriented messages. A lot of
times, I think why people'smessages aren't clear is because

(34:03):
they haven't defined is it whyor how, and they're either
answering a question that's thatno one is asking Mhmm.
Or they're they're mixingthey're mixing content
associated with why and how. Solet's think about a really
simple example here. If you aretalking to a room of smokers

(34:23):
that is like, I wanna click quitsmoking. Tell me how. And you
give a presentation that's fivereasons why you should quit
smoking, they're gonna be like,we are convinced.
You don't like, we don't needfive reasons. Right? We're good.
Right? Conversely, if you've gotthe proven playbook for how to
quit smoking that isbulletproof.

(34:45):
Right? Like, you know, ifsomeone walks these steps, but
you're talking to a room of avidsmokers that don't think they
need to quit, you're giving thema how message and they haven't
been convinced on why. And we dothat a lot, especially as it
relates to business andleadership. A lot of times what
I often see is leaders, and thisis something I've actually
coached, some of our team onrecently, is your communication

(35:09):
was so good, but you answeredthe question how before you
answered the question why. And,you know, if you're trying to
get customers on board withsomething or if you're trying to
get our team on board withsomething and you just go into
how we're gonna do this, butthey're not, like, literally
jumping out of their seatssaying, we should do this, then
you're probably gonna havelethargic effort at best.
And so understanding what's thequestion you're answering and

(35:31):
orienting your message aroundthat. Yeah.

Ben Loy (35:33):
That's good. I'm, like, fighting the urge to take notes
right now.

Alex Judd (35:36):
I'll just

Ben Loy (35:36):
have to go I'll just have to go back and listen to
this podcast and take notes.Yeah. That's that's great. And I
think it also when you canidentify why it you establish in
a in some way, you'reestablishing yourself as an
authority figure. And if youdon't if you haven't answered
that and you come in and you'rejust like, this is how we're
gonna do this, there's a certainlevel of of even trust of like,

(35:59):
yeah, you haven't even youhaven't led these people as a as
a public speaker.
Like, you're not leading. You'rejust presenting.

Alex Judd (36:03):
And and we did this in this podcast. Right? This is
like inception. It's the dreamwithin the Right? So how did we
start part one in this podcast?
We said there's three principlesthat you need to understand
about communication. There's adifference between talking and
communicating. Communication isa kingpin skill, and
communication is complex. Whatwhat are we doing right there?
We're telling the audience,here's why everything you're

(36:25):
about to listen to in these twoepisodes is so important.
We're answering the question whywith those three principles. And
then now what are we smack dabin the middle of? Well, we're
smack dab in the middle of how.Right? We gotta remember who
it's for, understand thestandards, find your voice and
style, identify your intent.
Now we're answering the questionhow. But if we don't first
preface it with why, there's apretty good chance there's

(36:47):
people listening to this podcastthat are like, well, I'm not a
communicator. I don't I don'tneed to listen to this one.
Yeah. Then they'll check out.

Ben Loy (36:53):
Yep. Let's move on to the next one.

Alex Judd (36:55):
Okay. So next one is really related to your manner
and your message, actually. It'spractice the way you plan to
perform. So it can be helpful tothink about your communication
as a performance. Like that'syour game day, right?
And what do we want to do? Wewant to practice like we're
going to perform at the game. Sooften what I see is people in

(37:18):
their practice time, a lot oftimes people take communication
very seriously, and so they dopractice. But their practice is
like them mumbling to themselvesor them reading their outline or
them, you know, just kind ofcasually talking through what
they're going to say to maybe afriend or something like that.
And I just don't think that'sanywhere near as helpful as just

(37:39):
doing it.
Like, just run it. And it'sawkward and that's okay. Let it
be awkward. But right? Like, youknow, I would say run it in the
mirror, run it for your dog, runit for the empty chair, run it
for your spouse, run it for yourfriends.
Right? Because if you reallycare about the audience grasping
the message, you have to focuson the manner you present the
message. What I often see isthat, man, a lot of people fail

(38:01):
because the only time theyworked on the manner with which
they present is the presentationitself. And if manner is one of
the single most important thingsto people absorbing what you're
trying to share, why would younot practice that? I think we
often overestimate how much weneed good content, and we often

(38:21):
underestimate how much we need agood manner, like, the way we
present.

Ben Loy (38:26):
Why is it or I guess why do you think it is that
that's overlooked so much inpublic speaking specifically?
Because I feel like if I pickedany other activity, you just go,
duh, like Yeah. Go do it andyou're gonna get better at it,
right? Yeah. And But for somereason, I feel like there is a
certain level of, like you said,a lot of people a lot of people

(38:47):
don't want to or are reallyuncomfortable with the idea of
staring at a mirror or a walland just practicing.

Alex Judd (38:54):
Yeah. I mean, it feels incredibly vulnerable.
Mhmm. Right? I mean, I I do thisfor a living.
Right? Like, years ago, I said,man, for a living, I wanna
communicate, teach, write, lead,and work with people and make a
living doing it. And now I lookup, and I'm like, praise god. I
get to do that. Awesome.
And I do this for a livingtoday, and still the first time
I'll talk Aspen through amessage that I'm working on or

(39:16):
about to give, I, like, I feelvulnerable. I don't feel
nervous. I just feel vulnerablebecause it's like, these are
genuine thoughts and storiesthat I have that I'm sharing for
the first time with someone.And, like, it's kind of like a
second grader when they comehome from school and they had an
art project, and they hold it upto their parent. They say, here,

(39:36):
I made this.
And it's like the way the parentresponds at that moment. Like,
that's what it feels like.Right? It's like, do you like
what I made? And so that's whywho we practice for is really,
really important, and we wannahave people that build our
confidence and help us improveand all of that.
But, yeah, I think it'svulnerable. I think you feel
exposed. But what I often findis that, man, if I'm willing to

(39:59):
endure the level ofvulnerability and exposure
associated with practicing withpeople, then the the level of
vulnerability and authenticitythat I bring to the actual
communication itself is justit's so much more real because
it's so much more human becauseI've, like, emotionally wrestled
with this stuff. And oftentimes,I mean, I I, you know, I I

(40:19):
practice a lot of what I do formultiple different people, but
Aspen is one of my go tos, andher perspective is just very
different than mine, and, it'sso helpful. Like, I have avoided
some serious, serious mistakesby running running stuff through
the Aspen filter first and thenher being like, have you thought

(40:42):
about how this type of personmight hear that?
And then being like, ruh roh,no. Like, and go back to the
editing board. Yeah. So practicethe way you perform.

Ben Loy (40:50):
I mean, that really bridges the gap between all of
the other points. What is it?It's three Cs and two Es. Yeah.
And effective, right?
That's right. Like, you're onlygoing to know if you're being
effective if you do it in frontof people who can give you
feedback on whether or not it'seffective. And that's that's
both, like, in the moment whenyou're actually giving the talk

(41:11):
and in preparation. If you'renot giving it to people and
asking questions and and hearingfrom a human being who has
perspective and and sits in adifferent seat than you do,
you're you're taking a big riskon your effectiveness when they
when push comes to shove.

Alex Judd (41:27):
It's an I I think it's an exercise in humility.
And I would say, you know, I'velearned this a lot from the
teaching team at the church thatwe go to is I know for a fact
they have a rhythm where theyhave their communicators share
what they're planning to shareon a given Sunday with the
teaching team Mhmm. To becritiqued and and for alternate
perspectives to be offered. Andit's like in the multitude of

(41:47):
counsel, there is wisdom. Right?

Ben Loy (41:48):
Yeah. Yep.

Alex Judd (41:49):
Do I have time to share a quick story on how this
played out recently?

Ben Loy (41:51):
Yeah. Go for it.

Alex Judd (41:52):
Okay. So this episode will air after our long game
leadership experience in Austincoming up, and so I I feel good
about sharing this story. Idon't wanna let the cat out of
the bag beforehand, so we gottaput a put put this clip in the
vault until we do it. So longgame leadership is the theme.
I'm giving the opening talk onlong game leadership, and I have
spent a lot of time thinkingabout and praying about how I

(42:14):
wanna open this experience.
I haven't shared this with you,I don't think yet. And one of
the things that I wanna sure Ido is what I want them to know,
well, what's our functionaldefinition of long game
leadership? And it's expandingyour time horizon in service of
others. So we're gonna startwith that functional definition.
And then I was like, what wouldbe the best way to really kind
of orient them not just aroundplaying the long game, but

(42:36):
around practicing long game?
Because that's what I want us todo at this experience. And how
do I jolt them into that mode?And in prayer, I kinda had this
thought of, like, well, StephenCovey says we should start with
the end in mind. And what if wepair that quote with another
quote that's a stoicism quotethat says memento mori. And
memento mori means remember thatyou will die.

(42:58):
That's like the alternateversion of of, of start with the
end in mind. Right? And so withthat, I'm like, well, why don't
we spend most of the firstlesson talking about our
funeral? And let's look at threequestions. Let's look at, when's
it gonna be, who's gonna bethere, and what are they gonna
say.
And when's it going to be? WhatI'm gonna tell people is like,

(43:21):
no. I'm not gonna I'm not gonnapredict your death. We're not
doing witchcraft here. But but Iam gonna reflect on the psalm
that says, Lord, teach us tonumber our days that we may gain
a heart of wisdom.
Mhmm. Right? That God says, man,I don't just want you to count
your days. I want you to makeyour days count. And and when we
recognize the finitude of howlimited our days are on this

(43:43):
earth, how much time we getwith, you know, the kids that
are under our household, right?
How much time we get with ourparents? Like how much time do
they have? How many moreChristmases do we get? How many
more Thanksgivings do we get?How many more books do I get to
read?
Right? Like all of this stuff,when we actually reflect on
that, it changes not when wethink about death, it changes
the way we live is what I wantto share with people. So so that
was one of the exercises I I hadplanned, and I'm calling it a

(44:06):
number your days exercise. Andthe way I had it in my original
draft that I ran Aspen throughwas literally like a bullet
point that said the averageAmerican male lives to be 75 and
the average American femalelives to be 82. How much time do
you have left?
That was the workbook. And Aspenjust like looked at it and she
was like, Alex, like, I knowthat you can think about this

(44:29):
stuff very pragmatically, and Ithink, like, I think a lot of
the people in the room will beable to do that. But she said
death can still be a really hardtopic for some people. And,
like, I think this is gonna be,like I think it's really good,
and I think it's necessary. ButI think that, like, there might
be some sensitivity in this roomthat you should really
acknowledge.

(44:50):
And I was like, oh my gosh. Thatwould have been I mean, this is
the opening talk for us spendingthree days together. Right? I I
could have gotten off on areally bad foot with a certain
portion of people thatapproached the topic of death
emotionally different than I am.Yeah.
Now that's where you have tothink as a communicator. Okay.
I'm not gonna I'm not gonnacompromise the message, Cause I

(45:11):
actually think the message isreally important, but the way
you communicate the message willimpact people's ability to
receive it. So that has all beenreworked and I'm gonna give the
Aspen iteration, not my firstiteration at the experience next
week. Yeah.

Ben Loy (45:25):
Wow. A topic like that is just often there's either no
there's a spectrum between nobaggage to so much baggage that
people carry. And I mean,someone who grew up, this is
just hypothetical, like someonewho grew up on a farm who sees
life and death on a regularbasis and sees it as a cycle of
life is gonna process that muchdifferently than than someone

(45:48):
else, right, who who does hasn'thad to think about that in their
life, hasn't had to face thereality of that or or even,
like, taking the time to todwell on that topic.

Alex Judd (45:57):
So I mean, and and it's why, you know, especially
with emotionally fraught topics,it demands prayer to to be like,
god, give me a heart to care foreveryone in the room. Because I
don't know. There could be an aperson in the room next week
that they flew to Austin from afuneral of someone they love.
And it's like, if that's thecase, like, man, I I I really

(46:17):
like you know? And and so thisgoes back to interest as an
indicator.
If you wanna grow in what we'retalking about right now, there
there are pastors out there andand leaders too, but I would say
the most accessible recordingswe have are pastors that take on
very difficult topics for aliving. And they do it in a way
that does not sacrifice thetruth but is also not

(46:40):
insensitive or demeaning or somesuperiority complex or over
moralizing. And and it's just areally good exercise to go find
someone that does that well andlisten to them and be like, what
were the what were thestrategies and tactics behind
how they do that? Because it'sit's a incredibly intentional
act. Mhmm.

(47:00):
And so one thing that I wouldtell people in this is the more
sensitive the subject, the moreintentional your preparation has
to

Ben Loy (47:07):
be. Mhmm. Mhmm. I think I feel like we've already
brushed over this topic multipletimes, but this goes into the
next point, which is you'recommunicating with people not at
people. Yeah.
Right? That's exactly right. Ithink we've talked over the
higher level idea of what thatmeans. Let's jump into the the
practical.

Alex Judd (47:28):
When I was in high school, it was legitimately
something I had to learn that,like, you know, it turns out
that when I don't send everytext message with all caps,
people, like, actually respondto me. Right? And, like, I used
to literally say in high school,I used to say live life on caps
lock. Like, that was a phrasethat I, like, held on to. Right?

(47:50):
And and I've and then I one dayI was like, well, I wonder what
happens if I don't do that. Andpeople, like, actually replied
to my text messages. It wasamazing, like, because they
didn't think I was yelling atthem. And what's crazy is one to
one comparison to my speaking aswell. If you were to look at my
speaking from ten years agocompared to now, right?

(48:11):
I was communicating from stagesten years ago. If you were to
look at it then, it would havebeen me communicating on caps
lock. And people would say, Man,that was a lot of energy and I
just feel like I got lambastedby a fire hose. But they didn't
really feel like they had spaceor ability to respond at all.
Like, whether it's even nonverbally, verbally, there was

(48:31):
just it was no dialogue.
It was me talking at them. Now Ithat is still my default that I
have to intentionally workagainst. But when I'm at my best
now, I'm not talking at people.I'm talking with them. And it
changes my tone.
It changes my complexion. Itchanges the way I make eye
contact and connect with people.And so that's really what we're

(48:52):
talking about is connect withpeople, not at them. And and the
practice of it is what we justmentioned. It's your tone.
It's your complexion. It's yourvolume. It's it's your
nonverbals. I think nonverbalsare very important as well.

Ben Loy (49:05):
So six was communicate with people, not at people. And
the last point is evaluate andimprove.

Alex Judd (49:13):
Yeah, that's right. So we've already mentioned this
multiple times but if you'regetting reps communicating then,
man, number one, if you can geta recording, you're gonna you're
gonna be your toughest critic,and I'm saying that actually is
a good thing. Right? You shouldlook back and watch your
communication because what I'lloften see is maybe this is a

(49:34):
personality wiring thing butlike you can kind of envision
how it went and been like, thatwas awesome. That was just
amazing.
And like have this littlepicture or video in your head of
how it went And then you watchthe actual video and it's like
very different than what youenvisioned happening and you're
like, Oh gosh, I've got somework to do. And so evaluating
yourself, it can be really hardto watch recordings of yourself,

(49:56):
but man, that's a great way togrow. It's game film is what
that is. But then also evaluateand improve by, you know,
talking to people that werethere for what you did. And this
can be formal evaluation like,hey, clear, confident, concise,
energetic, effective, red,yellow, green, those five
qualities.
How did I do? Or one of thethings that I like is like

(50:17):
really informal evaluation,which is you talking to someone
that might not even be part ofyour team or something like
that, might not even be thinkingabout the subject of intentional
communication at all. Maybe youjust ask someone that was in
your audience, just ask them,hey, what did I'd just be
interested to know, what did youhear me say? And what's crazy is
you know if you got a green, ifyou crush clarity, they'll be

(50:39):
able to tell you, well, here'sthe main point. If if you're
yellow or red on clarity, theymight be like, you know, I don't
know, but it was just so good.
Like, well, it wasn't actuallythat good. It might have been
energetic, but it wasn't goodbecause, they should be able to
rearticulate to you at least oneof your main points or your
overarching point or somethinglike that. So even just talking

(51:00):
to people, ask them, how how didit make you feel like this
message? You know? And they cansay, like, man, made me feel
like I got a lot of work to do.
It's like, well, was that yourintent, or was your intent to
inspire people? Because ifthey're leaving feeling ashamed
that they haven't done enough,that's actually not what you
wanted to accomplish. Sothinking about what your intent
was and asking really goodquestions to the people that
heard you speak and then seeing,did I accomplish what I wanted

(51:23):
to accomplish?

Ben Loy (51:24):
What are, three questions you could ask someone,
whether formally or informally,to to dive into that.

Alex Judd (51:30):
I'll reiterate it. What did you hear me say? Mhmm.
Like, that's that's a reallygood one because I I think I
can't remember who first saidthis quote, but he said, the
greatest illusion aboutcommunication is the idea that
it's actually taken place. Andit's like we think we
communicate something.
One way to confirm whether youcommunicate something is ask
them, what did you hear me say?The second one we already

(51:52):
mentioned is, what did that makeyou feel? And, you know, people
will reveal a lot to you aboutyour affect in terms of how it
made them feel. And then askthem, hey. What do you wanna do
out of this?
Right? And and a lot of times,people will say, you know, I
don't even know. I don't I Ijust thought it was good. You
know? And it's like, man, thatmeans we probably could have

(52:13):
spent more time on the practicalapplication portion of what
we're talking about versus ifthey're like, man, I've got a
list of three things that Ireally wanna get after.
I wanna do it differentlybecause of this communication.
So so, again, what did you hearme say? How did it make you
feel? And what are some what issomething you wanna do different
out of this time today?

Ben Loy (52:31):
Well, I've had a lot of fun in this conversation. I
mean, this is just something I'mI've, yeah, I've identified as,
an area I want to grow, and I'mI feel very much like a student.
So it's just fun to be able tothen a pleasure to just be able
to sit across from you and andask you these questions and and
dive into this. In closing, isthere anything else that you
want to share on this topic?

Alex Judd (52:51):
I would say I've had fun as well, and so I'm I'm
excited. We've got a lot ofcontent on this topic, so
hopefully, we can kinda weavethis into maybe one of our
future product or serviceofferings if people find this
valuable. But the final thing Iwould say is just something
we've already said in part one,which is communication is a
skill, And that's awesomebecause that means you can grow.
And so I would just challengeeveryone, don't don't feel like

(53:13):
you need to become a mastercommunicator tomorrow. Just
start communicating.
Have some intent and then have aframework to to evaluate your
communication. Maybe clear,confident, concise, energetic,
effective. And don't besurprised just in doing those
small things with intentionalitythat you start to grow as a
communicator. Thanks, Hawks.Thanks, Ben.

(53:35):
Well, there you have it. Thanksso much for joining us for this
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